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Jon
11-19-2014, 09:16 AM
Hi All,

I posted over in L21 about the books of Tim Clarkson...I'm in the middle of his work The Making of Scotland. It features a map of early Christian centres in Scotland, and I must say so far it's the best match of any kin/tribal/organizational map with the current FTDNA distribution map for L193.

One should not read too much into this, obviously: but I have long been interested in the fact that L193 seems quite well spread over Scotland, with no exclusive representation in one area. There seem to be focal points in the SW, in Argyll, some western isles, up around Inverness, and into Perthshire/Angus- exactly the pattern of early church and monastic settlements. Of course, people have moved around a bit since then (!), but I was struck by the similarities nonetheless.

I know that religious leaders back then were virtually (if not actually) aristocracy, and celibacy would have been taken with a pinch of salt. I wonder if the coming of Christianity to Scotland ties in more deeply with some of our groups?

Best,

Jon

Dubhthach
11-19-2014, 09:32 AM
Celibacy wasn't a feature of the Irish church even up until the 15th century. You had "clerical families" as well as families holding "quasi-religious positions" (wearing tonsure, but not ordained to priesthood etc.) The following is well worth a read, obvioulsy it's talking about Ireland in the context of post 1169, but lot of features of society were relevant to period of 600-1200AD as well:

"Gaelic and Gaelicized Ireland in the Middle Ages"

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gaelic-Gaelicized-Ireland-Middle-Ages/dp/1843510030

Alot cheaper buying it form amazon.co.uk --originally published in early 70's (republished in early 00's) it's often regarded as the best introduction to Irish society before the conquest of the 16th/17th centuries annihilated native practises.

-Paul

Heber
11-19-2014, 11:04 AM
Celibacy wasn't a feature of the Irish church even up until the 15th century. You had "clerical families" as well as families holding "quasi-religious positions" (wearing tonsure, but not ordained to priesthood etc.) The following is well worth a read, obvioulsy it's talking about Ireland in the context of post 1169, but lot of features of society were relevant to period of 600-1200AD as well:

"Gaelic and Gaelicized Ireland in the Middle Ages"

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gaelic-Gaelicized-Ireland-Middle-Ages/dp/1843510030

Alot cheaper buying it form amazon.co.uk --originally published in early 70's (republished in early 00's) it's often regarded as the best introduction to Irish society before the conquest of the 16th/17th centuries annihilated native practises.

-Paul

Paul,
That was one of my first books on Gaelic History and Culture.
Regardless of whether they were celibate or not a large part of the monastic settlements were lay people.
My own family came from a hereditary family of Eranaghs, ie managed and farmed monastic land, and to this day the surname is found clustered around ancient monastic
settlements.
There were extensive exchanges with Scotland, Euope and in particular the Holy Roman Empire especially along the Rhine Valley.
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-celtic-monastic-movement/
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-celtic-christianity/
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-early-christian-period/
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-monks-and-the-holy-roman-empire/
Many of the Abbots and Saints have documented genealogies and came from the 100+ chiefly families as described by Bart Jaski.
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-genealogies/
With the advent of NGS we should soon be in a position to map these ancient genealogies to the Phylogenetic Tree and identify those which are fabricated from those which match the DNA evidence.

Jon
11-19-2014, 11:11 AM
Thanks very much to you both for the info. So it seems like quite a legacy we have here! I wonder how much continental L21 could eventually be tracked back to ecclesiastical movement? Would make a fascinating study...

Heber
04-23-2015, 10:36 AM
Thanks very much to you both for the info. So it seems like quite a legacy we have here! I wonder how much continental L21 could eventually be tracked back to ecclesiastical movement? Would make a fascinating study...

Jon,

A new book on this topic will be launched on April 29th by Enzo Farinella.

On the pathways of the world – Irish monks in Europe and Italy

"The history of Irish monasticism, from St. Patrick to the “wanderers” for Christ is extremely interesting. We find Irish monks everywhere throughout the known world, in Britain, Scotland, France, Switzerland, Belgium, Italy, Slovakia, Russia, Iceland, Greenland, America. Their skills, above all their knowledge of reading and bookmaking, made of them counsellors in Charlemagne’s Court, founders of monasteries, cities and universities, teachers and educators, publishers and very well respected figures in other fields."

http://www.iicdublino.esteri.it/IIC_Dublino/webform/SchedaEvento.aspx?id=630

rms2
04-23-2015, 11:36 AM
One should keep in mind that monks take vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. The chastity part comes in the form of celibacy. Now, even monks are sinners and make mistakes, but does it seem likely to anyone that a celibate religious community could be responsible for doing much to propagate a y haplogroup? Seriously.

Personally, I doubt there are very many men today who are descended from randy Irish monks.

Dubhthach
04-23-2015, 03:01 PM
You've never met someone called McAvany/McEvany than Rich ;)



Mac an MHANAIGH—VII—M'Ivannagh, M'Vany, MacEvany, MacEvanny, MacVany, [Monk, Monks]; 'son of the monk' (Irish 'manach'); a rare surname. So far as I know, it survives only in Co. Mayo. The corresponding English surname is Monk or Monks.


If ye fan of the SAS there's always the books by Andy McNab



Mac an ABBADH—VII—M'an Abba, M'Enabb, MacAnabb, MacNabb; 'son of the abbot.' The MacNabbs are mostly of Scottish descent, apparently very few of the name being Irish. They were a branch of the MacKinnons, and at one time a clan of considerable importance.


I know I use to watch a Scottish tv program called "Taggart"


Mac an tSAGAIRT—VII—MacEntaggart, MacEntaggert, MacEntegart, MacIntaggart, MacInteggart, MacTaggart, MacTeggart, Taggart, Teggart, Tegart, Tiger, etc.; 'son of the priest' (Irish 'sagart', Latin 'sacerdos'); an Ulster surname.


Of course there's always McInnery though the position of Airchinneach (head of kindred) was basically secularised by later medieval period, though they did wear that tonsure but didn't take full holy orders.



Mac an AIRCHINNIGH—VII—MacAnemey, MacEnerney, MacInerney, MacNerhenny, MacNerney, MacNirney, MacNertney, Connerney, Kenerney, Kinerney, Nerhenny, Nerney, Nertney, Nirney, etc.; 'son of the crenagh' (Irish 'airchinneach', steward of church lands); the name of several distinct families, each an offshoot of one or other of the great erenagh families. The Roscommon family of the name, who are apparently a branch of the family of Ó Branáin (which see), were erenaghs of St. Patrick's church at Elphin. The Thomond family, who are numerous in Clare and Limerick, formerly held considerable property in the parish of Ballysally, but lost it in the Cromwellian confiscations. The above is the literary form of this surname, but Mac an Oirchinnigh, often shortened to Mac an Oirchinn, has long been the popular form.


Though personally I don't weigh much credence to Irish clerics in Europe leaving much a "mark", what's more interesting is the likes of pilgrims/monastry followers who accompined them. For example we know that Bran mac Máelmórda (from whom the O'Bryne family of Leinster descend from) died in an Irish monastery in Cologne in 1052, he had been dipossed as King of Leinster over 30 years previously. I'd imagine a man like that would have had retainers/followers. His descendants the Byrnes/O'Byrnes are among the most common surnames in modern Counties Dublin and Wicklow.

rms2
04-23-2015, 03:29 PM
On the Continent, monasteries were closer to Rome and had to conform to its monastic requirements, not that anyone was perfect.

Celibacy has long been the standard for monks, West and East. For a long time, however, priests and deacons could marry and raise families. They still can in the Eastern Orthodox Church, and of course, deacons in the Roman Church can be married.

rossa
04-23-2015, 03:49 PM
One should keep in mind that monks take vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. The chastity part comes in the form of celibacy. Now, even monks are sinners and make mistakes, but does it seem likely to anyone that a celibate religious community could be responsible for doing much to propagate a y haplogroup? Seriously.

Personally, I doubt there are very many men today who are descended from randy Irish monks.

There's a term that conjures up memories.
I also noticed in the I-M223 project that there were a good few surnames in the I-L126 group that had monastic type surnames. But the problem is with a small group like that you have the same surnames that will pop up under other haplogroups.

TigerMW
04-24-2015, 02:13 AM
I don't necessarily see any religious connection of L513 folks. I probably don't understand the proposition. L513 shows up in Ireland, Scotland, England, Northern France, the Low Countries and even Scandinavia. How does this correlate with religious centers?

Heber
05-27-2015, 01:31 PM
Did The Scottish (and Irish) Settle Iceland A Century Before The Norse?

Although this is not a DNA study, I suspect any Y DNA haplogroups would include, L21, DF21, DF49, L513 on one of the other SNPs with a strong Irish Scots frequency. Previous mtDNA studies found a high percentage of Irish and Scots maternal DNA in Iceland possibly a result of captives being resettled in Iceland.

"Remarkably similar carvings and simple cross sculptures mark special sites or places once sacred, spanning a zone stretching from the Irish and Scottish coasts to Iceland. We can look to Skellig Michael, which rises from the sea 12 kilometers off the southwest Irish coast; to Aird a’Mhòrain on the Outer Hebridean island of North Uist; to the Isle of Noss, Shetland; and to Heimaklettur cliff face in Iceland’s Westman Islands.

Also in southern Iceland, a number of the 200 man-made caves found there are marked by similar rock-cut sculpture. And these dark remote places suggest a different answer to a puzzle that we thought we had solved a long time ago.

Iceland was one of the last island groups on Earth to be settled by people. As you might expect, the late-ninth-century settlement by Viking-Age Scandinavians has long been of keen interest to the local people. These artificial caves suggest that we should re-think our traditional histories. The Viking arrival may indeed have been pre-dated by Celtic-speaking people from Scotland and Ireland in around AD 800.......

The flowering of Gaelic monasticism is well established for the early medieval period, with individuals and monastic foundations of the “Irish school” penetrating large areas of Europe and accounts of north Atlantic travels and settlements."



http://www.science20.com/the_conversation/did_the_scottish_settle_iceland_a_century_before_t he_norse-155784#ixzz3bLSZi9Tg

Jon
05-28-2015, 10:02 PM
Thanks Gerard, very interesting. I'm sure some L513, along with the others, must have entered Iceland from the isles.

If I remember rightly in fact, according to your excellent pinterest visuals, L513 is the 2nd most common L21 subgroup in Ireland, after DF49. I watched a lot of the Genetic Genealogy Ireland presentations on Youtube, which are great, but was mildly disappointed that L513 didn't seem to get much discussion time, in contrast to DF49 and DF21. A shame, especially if it is as frequent as it seems to be...

Heber
06-02-2017, 06:46 PM
Glad to see that "At the roots of European history" is now published on Kindle.
"On the Pathways of the World"
I was happy to contribute to the research.

"Crises are a time for reflection and regeneration. After the fall of the Roman Empire in 476AD, monks, philosophers, teachers and scribes, coming from Ireland, brought a new wave of re-evangelization and moral-cultural renaissance to a Europe, ravaged by the decadence of moral values, by barbaric invasions and by droughts. Their work of re-evangelization and cultural re-vival produced a true spiritual and civic reunification of the entire European Continent."

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=Enzo+farinella

http://pin.it/R1jDUHP

http://pin.it/lzhOaLJ

http://pin.it/BUFX7Yg

http://pin.it/EsU-1pw