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MitchellSince1893
08-23-2016, 03:05 AM
Well, I for one will be glad to see the big new Bell Beaker report, the one with 67 BB genomes. It'll have to be good. Hope I have plenty of beer on hand while I read that one. B)
In the spirit of the election year

It's gonna be Huge!


Plus we are in dire need of some excitement around here

David Mc
08-23-2016, 08:17 AM
Well, I for one will be glad to see the big new Bell Beaker report, the one with 67 BB genomes. It'll have to be good. Hope I have plenty of beer on hand while I read that one. B)

Oh yes indeed. I also have a fond dream that this will clarify the ongoing ridiculuous debates regarding the origin of M269 a a part of the mvement of Indo-European peoples, although I know the last nail in the coffin of R1A-only enthusiasts will only come with ADNA from farther east. Still we're closer ever to an unanswerable migration route (out of Yamnaya) than we've ever been.

Piquerobi
08-23-2016, 12:25 PM
My guess is that Bell Beakers will turn out on the whole basically just like modern Northwest Europeans, like the Irish and the Dutch (on the autosomal DNA).

Gravetto-Danubian
08-23-2016, 12:41 PM
My guess is that Bell Beakers will turn out on the whole basically just like modern Northwest Europeans, like the Irish and the Dutch (on the autosomal DNA).

We already know that it's probable they will not all plot with NW Europeans. A couple of the German & Czech BB's plot with more southern Europeans, so we can imagine what BB from southern France, Iberia and Italy will look like.

11145

R.Rocca
08-23-2016, 01:17 PM
We already know that it's probable they will not all plot with NW Europeans. A couple of the German & Czech BB's plot with more southern Europeans, so we can imagine what BB from southern France, Iberia and Italy will look like.

11145

The U152+ Bell Beaker sample from Germany did not have enough markers to make David's PCR, but in a separate one David plotted him with modern day northern Russians. Another plots with Corded Ware, another Scandinavian/Baltic and finally a couple look British... and that's just German/Czech samples! So, more than likely Bell Beaker samples will be as autosomally diverse as modern P312+ populations. However, the key will be the autosomal difference between early Bell Beaker (2800-2500 BC) and middle Bell Beaker samples (2500 - 2200 BC) and their locations relative to the time period. This alone may tell us the direction of geneflow.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-23-2016, 01:29 PM
I think we'll see several directions of gene flow; but few would disagree the major one came from the East
As you mention, the real question we need answered is temporal and regional variation; and where much of the EEF substrate came from. To differentiate between Balkan , Iberian or Italian farmers would require good quality data

R.Rocca
08-23-2016, 02:14 PM
I think we'll see several directions of gene flow; but few would disagree the major one came from the East
As you mention, the real question we need answered is temporal and regional variation; and where much of the EEF substrate came from. To differentiate between Balkan , Iberian or Italian farmers would require good quality data

More specifically, we need pre-Bell Beaker Copper Age samples, but I'm assuming that's what you meant by farmers. :D Preferably from Iberia and the Balkans. Italian Copper Age samples like Rinaldone and Gaudo will likely be very similar to Remedello and Balkan Copper Age samples, but they would be nice too.

Tomenable
08-25-2016, 11:34 AM
To be fair, I must point out that many people--in academia and elsewhere--are quick to "explain away" ancient samples that don't fit a preconceived hypothesis, apparent mismatches between autosomal and uniparental DNA results, etc.

Consider the strange case of IR1. Gamba 2014 (http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms6257) says:
---
A third genomic shift occurs around the turn of the first millennium BC. The single Iron Age genome, sampled from the pre-Scythian Mezőcsát Culture (Iron Age (IR1), 830–980 cal BC), shows a distinct shift towards Eastern Eurasian genotypes, specifically in the direction of several Caucasus population samples within the reference data set. This result, supported by mtDNA and Y-chromosome haplogroups (N and G2a1, respectively, both with Asian affinities) suggests genomic influences from the East. This is supported by the archaeological record which indicates increased technological and typological affinities with Steppe cultures at this time, including the importation of horse riding, carts, chariots and metallurgical techniques[26]. Modern Hungarians occupy an intermediate position between the IR1 and more Western Bronze Age genomes, most likely reflecting the continuation of admixture in the Central European gene pool since this time.
---

Is this paragraph claiming that Caucasus populations are "Eastern Eurasian"? Is it claiming that Steppe cultures are "Eastern Eurasian"? Is it claiming that modern Hungarians are halfway "Eastern Eurasian"?

According to Vladimir Tagankin of YFull, IR1's Y chromosome belongs to the mysterious N-Y6503 clade (https://yfull.com/tree/N-Y6503/), which diverged from the rest of N over 22,000 years ago and which is today found only in Europe. G2a1 mtDNA is indeed found in Japan and China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_(mtDNA)#Table_of_Frequencies_of_MtDNA _Haplogroup_G), but also in FTDNA customers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_(mtDNA)#Table_of_Frequencies_of_MtDNA _Haplogroup_G) from Poland, southwestern Russia, and Norway. And this forum post (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5287-RISE554-and-N-Y6503&p=105762&viewfull=1#post105762) lists IR1's autosomal results from Eurogenes K13--they don't look "Eastern Eurasian" to me.

When it comes to unusual N in Europe - check this N1b from East Prussia (could be of Old Prussian origin):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1712-N1c-in-the-Balts/page18


L732 = 1 person:

https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.15/tree/N-L732/

kit 217892 Johann Groening born in 1800 in Horsterbusch (Krzewiny), hg. N-L732

lgmayka
08-25-2016, 02:04 PM
When it comes to unusual N in Europe - check this N1b from East Prussia (could be of Old Prussian origin):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1712-N1c-in-the-Balts/page18
He is one of three Eastern Europeans in N-L732. Take a look at YFull's latest haplotree for N-L732 (https://yfull.com/tree/N-L732/). You can probably guess that those three are kits 224763, 217892, and N25315.

Tomenable
08-26-2016, 12:15 PM
Two of them - Groening and Drozdowski - have TMRCA just 850 years ago!

So their common ancestor lived in the mid-12th century. IMO this points to Old Prussian ancestry, especially since both Krzewiny and Mława are located in borderlands of former Prussian territory.

R.Rocca
08-26-2016, 12:40 PM
This thread is about Bell Beaker, Gimbutas and R1b. Please try to stay on topic.

Captain Nordic
08-26-2016, 01:02 PM
So essentially, the idea that Bell beaker moved out of Iberia and then expanded throughout western and Central europe is rather unlikely due to their very strong connections to Yamna?

I think i agree with Jean that Bell beaker was an offshot of Yamna that first arrived in the Carpathian Basin :)

How old are the oldest Bell beaker sites and where are they found? Iberia? Carpathian Basin?

Jean M
08-26-2016, 01:13 PM
So essentially, the idea that Bell beaker moved out of Iberia and then expanded throughout western and Central europe is rather unlikely due to their very strong connections to Yamna?

I think i agree with Jean that Bell beaker was an offshot of Yamna that first arrived in the Carpathian Basin :)

How old are the oldest Bell beaker sites and where are they found? Iberia? Carpathian Basin?

Thank you for the support, but I did point out the complication in the post # 40 on this thread, that you just thanked me for, so I think that must be what you are thinking of. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=61189&viewfull=1#post61189 I will repost the crux of it here:



I suggest just focussing on the fact that the Carpathian Basin is where it starts and ends. We have


Yamnaya arriving in the Carpathian Basin
Centuries later Eastern Bell Beaker, a culture very obviously derived from Yamnaya, appears in the Carpathian Basin. Here's the crucial bit: the characteristic bell-shaped pottery is derived from Yamnaya and related influences which existed earlier in the Carpathian Basin.
But said bell-shaped pottery crops up elsewhere earlier, and its makers are clearly intrusive in Hungary.
So the logical conclusion is a that a Yamnaya offshoot/derivative left the Carpathian Basin, but its descendants returned to the old homeland (where in the meantime other Yamanaya derivative cultures had developed, such as Makó, with with they could intermarry.)


People had probably been coming and going in the interim along trade routes established by the Yamnaya offshoot, but not actually returning to settle in the Carpathian Basin until there were problems in Iberia.

The earliest Bell Beaker type pottery is found in Iberia. So we need to accommodate migration to and from the Carparthian Basin in the model.

Captain Nordic
08-26-2016, 01:22 PM
Thank you for the support, but I did point out the complication in the post # 40 on this thread, that you just thanked me for, so I think that must be what you are thinking of. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=61189&viewfull=1#post61189 I will repost the crux of it here:



The earliest Bell Beaker type pottery is found in Iberia. So we need to accommodate migration to and from the Carparthian Basin in the model.

There's a strong possibility though that those sites in Copper age Iberia were brought by a new intruding population, right?
(quote from you)

Neolithic? No. Bell Beaker pottery appears within the Copper Age (Chalcolithic) Vila Nova de São Pedro culture, and there are strong signs of an intruding new population bringing the Copper Age to Portugal. Metallurgy was not invented independently in Iberia. It arrived as a complete technology from elsewhere, together with domesticated horses. At Zambujal we find a Copper Age population working in metal within a fortified settlement built in the 3rd millenium BC that transitions smoothly into making Bell Beaker ware. Extract from Blood of the Celts (2015) :


http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6253-Bell-Beaker-and-Early-Celtic-in-the-Isles/page2

Jean M
08-26-2016, 02:33 PM
There's a strong possibility though that those sites in Copper age Iberia were brought by a new intruding population, right?


Yes exactly. I picture a route for copper-working from the Carpathian basin to Iberia via northern Italy.

11185

Then people moving back and forth along that route.

ADW_1981
08-26-2016, 02:35 PM
Does anyone have a timeline when the Iberian BB aDNA findings will be released? Is/Are the paper(s) slated to be released this year?

Jean M
08-26-2016, 02:41 PM
Does anyone have a timeline when the Iberian BB aDNA findings will be released? Is/Are the paper(s) slated to be released this year?

Last year Wolfgang Haak was predicting a couple of Bell Beaker papers would be out this year, but I have no more recent inside information.

Jean M
08-26-2016, 03:20 PM
Does anyone have a timeline when the Iberian BB aDNA findings will be released? Is/Are the paper(s) slated to be released this year?

Pedro Soares seems to have issued a press release on 23 May 2016 in which he said that the project in which he is involved hoped to publish the first results within a year, but he did not promise that these would be the aDNA. Could be the modern DNA from Iberia first. http://www.dn.pt/sociedade/interior/da-peninsula-iberica-para-a-europa-genetica-desvenda-revolucao-cultural-5187967.html

Here is the translation in full, corrected by me from Google translate:


Iberia to Europe. Genetics reveals cultural revolution

A project coordinated by the University of Minho will make genetic analysis of populations in Portugal, Spain and the UK, and also of old bones. It will reveal a migration of five thousand years ago. The setting is in the Lisbon area, and the time almost five thousand years ago. It was from here, this fertile part of ​​the Iberian Peninsula, that flourished and spread throughout Western Europe a social and cultural revolution that has as its icon the bell-shaped ceramic pot, bulbous at the bottom, open at the top. But there is much that is not known about this bell "movement". For example, it is not 100% guaranteed, but everything indicates that it was in the Lisbon area and Extremadura that it began, but why? And the subsequent spread to Western Europe? Was it through large migratory movements or, on the contrary, hitchhiking small streams, inside the family networks? The answers, or some of them at least, will arrive soon with the help of genetics and of a research project led by the University of Minho.

"Within a year we hope to publish the first results, either with data from genetic sampling of the current population of the Iberian Peninsula or the results of genetic testing of human bones. It depends on what advances first," explains geneticist Pedro Soares, of the Center for Molecular Biology and Environmental UM researcher and coordinator of the project, which is funded by the Foundation for Science and Technology (FCT).

In practice, the study will have these two strands. On the one hand, it will make the global genetic characterization of the population of the Iberian Peninsula, with a degree of unprecedented resolution and more accurate than the one that exists at the moment. On the other, it will also carry out a genetic study of human bones, about 4800-5000 years old, found in various parts of Western Europe. Many will be from here in Portugal, from the Alentejo region. The idea then is to compare these genetic data, and then extract the information on migration flows at the time to answer some of the open questions.

To make the current genetic picture of the Iberian population, the team wants to collect "thousands of samples from all regions of Portugal and Spain," hopes Pedro Soares. The goal is to sequence all the mitochondrial DNA, which is only passed maternally and therefore it allows us to trace this lineage to the ancestral mothers of five millennia. The study of human fossils of the season also focuses on the sequencing of mitochondrial DNA, to ensure comparability.

In the UK a similar sampling will be done - for the population and for any bones - by the local partner of the project, the expert in population genetics Martin Richards of the University of Huddersfield, with whom Pedro Soares received his doctorate and continues to collaborate.

This will complete the set of data to allow for comparisons, and so characterize in more detail the true size of migration flows, at the end of the third millennium BC, spread the bell culture, its innovative techniques and its new social complexity in that an incipient elite began to stand out. "This is one of the major issues that we have in hand, to characterize the real dimension of these migratory flows", admits Pedro Soares.

There is a special story on the genesis of this project. The population genetics is the specialty of Pedro Soares, who studied biology at the University of Porto and then his doctorate in this area, in Leeds, UK, under the guidance of Martin Richards, then a professor and researcher at the university of that city. The collaboration between the two not stopped. It was indeed integrated into Martin Richards team that the young Portuguese researcher, now 35, became co-author of a model that established a new dating for dispersal of Homo sapiens across the planet, from Africa.

Their work, published in the scientific journals Molecular Biology and Evolution and PNAS in 2005 and in 2013, show that "out of Africa" ​​took place thousands of years earlier than previously thought so far, there are at least 60,000 years, first toward Southeast Asia, with a possible branch of this flow to move to Europe.

"In conversations with archaeologists, I was interested in this question of the bell-shaped culture and so we decided to move forward," says Pedro Soares.

Developer of the project, António Carlos Valera, archaeologist at the University of Algarve and coordinator of the research core of the ERA archeology company, studied for two decades the archaeological site of Perdigões near Reguengos de Monsaraz, which is precisely one of the inheritances more complete and well-preserved of Bell Beaker in Portuguese territory. "Here we have many human remains well preserved that we will include in the genetic study," explains Antonio Valera, stressing that it was "a place where people from distant sites converged at the time ." This diversity, which ultimately have advantages for the genetic study, we see the type of materials that have been found there, such as elephant tusks that came through North Africa, or ceramics in the Lisbon area. "We are involved in another project, also funded by the FCT to study human mobility based on the analysis of isotopes in the materials and we felt it was important to also participate in this genetic study because it will enrich our data," stresses the archaeologist.

This will soon answer the central questions that archaeologists are struggling for decades about the why and how of the Bell Beaker Revolution five thousand years ago. Here comes a new vision, richer in detail and closer to the reality of that past.

Jean M
08-26-2016, 03:24 PM
Frankly it looks like the project by Richards and Soares will be handicapped from the start by the focus exclusively on mtDNA, ancient and modern. Fortunately we can bet that the other project, with the participation of David Reich, will not be so handicapped.

Also Soares it seems has only samples from Perdigões and perhaps other sites in Alentejo, and not from the key Bell Beaker area of Estremadura.

Bas
08-26-2016, 03:49 PM
So essentially, the idea that Bell beaker moved out of Iberia and then expanded throughout western and Central europe is rather unlikely due to their very strong connections to Yamna?

I think i agree with Jean that Bell beaker was an offshot of Yamna that first arrived in the Carpathian Basin :)

How old are the oldest Bell beaker sites and where are they found? Iberia? Carpathian Basin?

Jean kindly posted Fitzpatrick ''The Arrival of the Bell Beaker Set in Britain and Ireland'' and in it, he says this:

...the emerging consensus is that the Bell Beaker first appeared in Iberia. However, this was not necessarily the time that the Bell Beaker Set appeared. Current chronologies suggest that for perhaps a century Bell Beakers were only made in Iberia and it is uncertain whether the other components of the Bell Beaker Set were also current at this time. The warrior equipment may have been added to an Iberian Bell Beaker ‘proto-package’ when it was adopted in temperate Europe, with the martial symbolism perhaps deriving ultimately from Yamnaya groups to the east (Harrison & Heyd 2007).

In it he also mentions:

In considering Ireland, connections with Germany were also emphasized, for example similarities in the metallurgical compositions of objects were interpreted as signifying links with Saxo-Thuringia in central Germany that were articulated via Wessex (Case 1966).

which is particularly interesting because of that heat map of Rathlin 1 which showed an increase in affinity corresponding with that same area.

rms2
08-26-2016, 10:47 PM
Frankly it looks like the project by Richards and Soares will be handicapped from the start by the focus exclusively on mtDNA, ancient and modern. Fortunately we can bet that the other project, with the participation of David Reich, will not be so handicapped.

Also Soares it seems has only samples from Perdigões and perhaps other sites in Alentejo, and not from the key Bell Beaker area of Estremadura.

I hope they aren't handicapped by national pride and the desire for an Out-of-Iberia redux.

Jean M
08-26-2016, 11:15 PM
I hope they aren't handicapped by national pride and the desire for an Out-of-Iberia redux.

National pride? More like professional. Richards (British) and Pala (Italian) seem to have been drawn together by an enthusiam for mtDNA and population continuity, just at the time when other geneticists were fighting to get in on NGS and recognising mass migration. Soares was a student of Richards. Richards was trained in the lab of Bryan Sykes. In "Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool" (2000), Richards et al (including Bryan Sykes) looked at modern mtDNA and:


We conclude that (i) there has been substantial back-migration into the Near East, (ii) the majority of extant mtDNA lineages entered Europe in several waves during the Upper Palaeolithic, (iii) there was a founder effect or bottleneck associated with the Last Glacial Maximum, 20,000 years ago, from which derives the largest fraction of surviving lineages, and (iv) the immigrant Neolithic component is likely to comprise less than one-quarter of the mtDNA pool of modern Europeans.

Richards evidently felt pride in "proving" far more genetic continuity in Europe than had been calculated by Cavalli-Sforza, at one time presenting this on his online CV as a major achievement. He was not amused by Sykes grabbing the limelight via Seven Daughters of Eve and various media gambits. But Sykes did at least take an interest in aDNA (however bad he was at actually doing the work.) Richards followed suit. He set up his own aDNA lab at Huddersfield and has been keen to use it. But the problem is that genetics has moved on. Continuing to stick to phylogeography with mtDNA and trying to find loopholes in the aDNA evidence against migration is a losing game. But that is exactly the game played by Pala, Richards and Soares in the paper just published in Celtic from the West 3. See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5756-Celtic-from-the-West&p=182216&viewfull=1#post182216

rms2
08-26-2016, 11:34 PM
National pride? . . .

Yes, Jean. I hope you're right, but I will wait and see. I have less faith in human nature than you do.

Heber
08-27-2016, 12:14 AM
Also Soares it seems has only samples from Perdigões and perhaps other sites in Alentejo, and not from the key Bell Beaker area of Estremadura.

I believe Perdigoes will be key to this puzzle and as he has access to Reich unpublished material and his own extensive collection, I am hoping like Haak that the results are "massive" and "unfolding".

http://perdigoes2011.blogspot.co.uk/

Jean M
08-27-2016, 12:15 AM
Yes, Jean. I hope you're right, but I will wait and see. I have less faith in human nature than you do.

Less faith?! I don't know about human nature in general, but I am frankly disappointed by their whole approach to this project. Hope I'm right?!? I hope I'm wrong and that they will actually produce something marginally more useful than a chocolate kettle. :biggrin1:

Jean M
08-27-2016, 12:18 AM
I believe Perdigoes will be key to this puzzle and as he has access to Reich unpublished material and his own extensive collection, I am hoping like Haak that the results are "massive" and "unfolding".

Who has access? Valera? Haak? Where is the post re "massive" and "unfolding"?

razyn
08-27-2016, 12:28 AM
Who has access? Valera? Haak? Where is the post re "massive" and "unfolding"?
I think he's alluding to an email exchange mentioned by Mike Www here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4526-The-big-R1b-project-update&p=182209&viewfull=1#post182209

Heber
08-27-2016, 12:28 AM
Who has access? Valera? Haak? Where is the post re "massive" and "unfolding"?

Pala, Soares and Richards acknowledged David Reich for access to his unpublished work. P375.
Mike W suggested that in an earlier post that Haak emphasised "massive" and "unfolding" for the next phase.

Tomenable
08-29-2016, 10:41 PM
DNA Land Ancestry Report for I0118 from Alberstedt (Bell Beaker / CWC mix) looks interesting:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/copperbronzeagedna.shtml

https://s18.postimg.io/58sy6sve1/ALB3.png

https://s17.postimg.io/dta0dx4z3/I0118.png

It shows high "Southwestern European" (which is equivalent to Iberian, Basque, South French):

https://s17.postimg.io/dta0dx4z3/I0118.png

rms2
08-29-2016, 10:54 PM
. . . . (Bell Beaker / CWC mix). . .

Says you.

What makes this one a "Bell Beaker/CWC" mix?

Autosomal dna strikes me as the playground of whatever one wants to make of it. Besides, I0118 is a female.

rms2
08-29-2016, 11:04 PM
Pala, Soares and Richards acknowledged David Reich for access to his unpublished work. P375.
Mike W suggested that in an earlier post that Haak emphasised "massive" and "unfolding" for the next phase.

I think you are going to see that "massive" and "unfolding" refers to Yamnaya and is indicative that Yamnaya is the source of L51 and probably even L11, including P312 and maybe U106, as well.

If you don't believe me, just watch. ;)

Tomenable
08-29-2016, 11:09 PM
Says you.

Not me, Jean M.

Kingjohn also posted autosomal results for this sample:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8408-Unetice-culture-was-clearly-multi-ethnic&p=183188&viewfull=1#post183188


M107790 his eurogenes k36 Elapsed Time: 22.03 seconds

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 2.79
Central_African -
Central_Euro 2.89
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 0.42
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 8.94
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 9.47
Fennoscandian 6.47
French 6.87
Iberian 15.99 significant high :) inline with your upload some people say bell beaker were originaly from iberia
the other bell beaker you uploaded I0112 BellBeaker also scored iberian.
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 7.52
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 15.23 high
North_Caucasian 6.27
North_Sea 17.12 high {both these components is the north west european of dna land
]
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med -

Tomenable
08-29-2016, 11:11 PM
By the way - you associate all of R1b with Bell Beaker, but what about U106?

AFAIK, U106 has not been found in Bell Beaker. It has been found in Corded Ware (Battle Axe).

DNA Land Ancestry Report for RISE98 (sample from Lilla Beddinge in southern Sweden):

https://s18.postimg.io/f8tbforpl/RISE_98.png

https://s18.postimg.io/6tvoh3wux/RISE98.png

https://s18.postimg.io/6tvoh3wux/RISE98.png

Tomenable
08-29-2016, 11:12 PM
So it seems that U106 was a Corded Ware lineage, not a Bell Beaker lineage.

And P312 probably expanded from Iberia, while U106 indeed from the Steppe.

rms2
08-29-2016, 11:23 PM
So it seems that U106 was a Corded Ware lineage, not a Bell Beaker lineage.

And P312 probably expanded from Iberia, while U106 indeed from the Steppe.

No, P312 did not "expand from Iberia". There are a number of P312 subclades that are fairly scarce in Iberia.

rms2
08-29-2016, 11:25 PM
By the way - you associate all of R1b with Bell Beaker, but what about [B]U106. . .

Apparently you are not familiar with my posts. I do NOT associate Bell Beaker with all of R1b. I associate it with P312, and I think Gimbutas was right, that Bell Beaker was the amalgam of Yamnaya and Vucedol.

I have said before that I expect U106 to turn up in Corded Ware.

Tomenable
08-29-2016, 11:39 PM
There are a number of P312 subclades that are fairly scarce in Iberia.

Basques have a lot of P312* (either very basal subclades, or still unresolved subclades):

lub = or

https://s9.postimg.io/z76zafqgf/R1b_Bask_w.png

Sources:

R1b-L11 - http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/...hg2015114a.html (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/suppinfo/ejhg2015114s1.html?url=/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/abs/ejhg2015114a.html)

R1b-DF27 - http://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S187...0174-8/fulltext (http://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(15)30174-8/fulltext)

There is also:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/9/2211.full

Tomenable
08-29-2016, 11:44 PM
This new paper links Trypillian culture with Iberia and Bell Beaker (as far as mtDNA is concerned):

https://www.academia.edu/27998059/Paleogenetic_analysis_of_the_Eneolithic_4900_2750_ calBC_Trypillian_Culture_from_Verteba_Cave_Ukraine


(...) This exploratory analysis suggests Verteba Cave [Trypillian culture] individuals are more closely related to Neolithic groups from the Basque Country (NBQ), Cardial Ware Spain (MNC), and Central European Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic Bell Beaker peoples (BBC). (...)

rms2
08-30-2016, 12:08 AM
Basques have a lot of P312* (either very basal subclades, or still unresolved subclades):

lub = or

https://s9.postimg.io/z76zafqgf/R1b_Bask_w.png

Sources:

R1b-L11 - http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/...hg2015114a.html (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/suppinfo/ejhg2015114s1.html?url=/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/abs/ejhg2015114a.html)

R1b-DF27 - http://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S187...0174-8/fulltext (http://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(15)30174-8/fulltext)

There is also:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/9/2211.full

Basques have some Yamnaya-like steppe ancestry, as well.

I'm not sure I understand your motivation.

rms2
08-30-2016, 12:10 AM
This new paper links Trypillian culture with Iberia and Bell Beaker (as far as mtDNA is concerned):

https://www.academia.edu/27998059/Paleogenetic_analysis_of_the_Eneolithic_4900_2750_ calBC_Trypillian_Culture_from_Verteba_Cave_Ukraine

What about y-dna R1b-L23, which is present in both Yamnaya and Bell Beaker, the latter of which Gimbutas attributed to the combination of Yamnaya and Vucedol?

Perhaps some of the Yamnaya men who went to Iberia hooked up with CT women first and brought some of their wives with them.

rms2
08-30-2016, 12:33 AM
Western Yamnaya lived in close contact with CT for a long time. The presence of CT mtDNA in Yamnaya, and thus in Bell Beaker, would not be at all surprising.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-30-2016, 12:56 AM
For those wanting to explore steppe - Carpathian- Western Europe links, this paper (https://www.academia.edu/5990823/The_Significance_of_the_Metallurgy_at_the_Beginnin g_of_the_Third_Millennium_BC_in_the_Carpathian_Bas in) by J Dani describes metalwork links. Apart from kurgans, metalwork (such as certain style of shafted axes) appear to be of eastern origin.

The link they make is to the steppe via Majkop & K-A techniques, then brought to Hungary by Yamnaya groups; thus forming the "CMP". Ultimately, the north Balkan centres (again) became the leading innovators (after a "gap"), from where it's spreads to the rest of Europe. They mention Vucedol and Mako in particular, but also draw upon wider impacts - Cotofeni, GAC, Baden, etc

Heber
08-30-2016, 07:58 AM
Interesting paper from Jan Turek on Bell Beaker and its influence on surrounding early civilisations.
Reflecting some of the recent papers in Celtic from the West 3 underlining coexistence with Megalithic cultures.

"At the opposite end of the then Old World, on the British Isles the Bell Beaker communities have created monuments such as the late phase of construction of Stonehenge shrine or a giant burial mound of Silbury Hill, which are comparable with Egyptian temples and pyramids."

https://www.academia.edu/27129003/Jan_Turek_2016_THE_BEAKER_WORLD_AND_OTHERNESS_OF_T HE_EARLY_CIVILIZATIONS_Musaica_Archaeologica_Vol._ 1_Issue_1_pp._155-162

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Jean M
08-30-2016, 08:28 AM
What makes this one a "Bell Beaker/CWC" mix?

That is the description of the archaeological context. It does not necessarily mean that the inividual sampled was genetically so mixed, but it makes it a possibility. Bell Beaker moved eastwards over a lot of territory previously occupied by Corded Ware. This sample is within that territory, not at the original western edge of the CW range.

Jean M
08-30-2016, 08:50 AM
So it seems that U106 was a Corded Ware lineage, not a Bell Beaker lineage.

Not surprising. The correlation of U106 with modern Germanic speakers was noticed by rms2 and others posting on the old DNAForums and other genetic forums years ago. It was included in the first edition of Ancestral Journeys (2013). This pattern suggested to me that U106 travelled from the steppe northwards along the eastern side of the Carpathians. Others argued that U106 could have travelled with P312 up the Danube and been present in Celtic-speaking territory now Germany or thereabouts until absorbed by the Jastorf culture. Before we had U106 from ancient DNA, more than one possibility seemed plausible. Now that we have a sample of U106 from a Battle Axe context, the proposition of a separate route from P312 is strengthened. But let's just wait for the pattern to reveal itself further.

Jean M
08-30-2016, 09:29 AM
This new paper links Trypillian culture with Iberia and Bell Beaker (as far as mtDNA is concerned):

The link is not to Bell Beaker alone. They find typical farming mtDNA lineages plus some hunter-gatherer. MtDNA results from Verteba Cave were published by Nikitin 2011: H and U5a1a. This new study provides more H, plus K, H2a, and T2b, U4 and W. The farming lineages H, K, T2b and W are all found in aDNA from the early Neolithic in Hungary. For example T2b was found in Starčevo, Hungary 5840-5660 BC. It is subsequently found in Late Neolithic Ukraine and the subclade T2b4f in Corded Ware.

This study makes a misguided attempt to wring more out of the data. It is all too common for a study to try to compare the frequencies of mtDNA haplogroups in the very limited number of ancient DNA samples they happen to have from one site (which might be a single extended family) with those in modern-day people or other ancient cultures. It looks so much more scientific to play around with statistics. :biggrin1: But this is frankly worthless unless you have many hundreds of samples, as with the Saxony-Anhalt study.

Isidro
08-30-2016, 10:42 AM
The metallurgy of the Vucedol culture at the end of the Late Copper age, was based on the use of arsenical copper.

The Bell Beaker -Csepel group in the Early Bronze Age for all practicallity did not use arsenic which makes them different than cultures in the Carpathian Basin- Vucedol transition-traditions and is related to different networks.


Possible links between Hungarian and Spanish Beaker Metallurgy:

https://www.academia.edu/5866431/Possible_links_between_Hungarian_and_Spanish_Beake r_Metallurgy

Jessie
08-30-2016, 11:21 AM
So it seems that U106 was a Corded Ware lineage, not a Bell Beaker lineage.

And P312 probably expanded from Iberia, while U106 indeed from the Steppe.

How could that be possible? R1b in Iberia is overwhelmingly DF27 so much lower down on the tree. At the western extremes of Europe you get overwhelmingly R1b-DF27 in Iberia and Britain/Ireland R1b-L21, it is obvious that they both split off from P312 before reaching those areas. That's plain to a novice like me. It is also obvious with autosomal dna that whatever DF27 encountered on their journey they have less ANE than the L21 group. It's so plainly obvious that all R1b travelled from east to west which is why you have U106 going one direction, U152 more Alps and North Italy, L21 travelling north west and DF27 generally going south west. It is just not possibly for P312 to have expanded out of Iberia leaving mainly DF27 there.

Michał
08-30-2016, 11:53 AM
AFAIK, U106 has not been found in Bell Beaker. It has been found in Corded Ware (Battle Axe).


So it seems that U106 was a Corded Ware lineage, not a Bell Beaker lineage.

I would consider this a strong overstatement. As for now, associating RISE98 (or R1b-U106 in general) with Corded Ware (Battle Axe) is definitely premature, as we don't have yet any ancient DNA data that would strongly support such a link.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4664-Request-Y-DNA-haplogroup-results-from-Allentoft-2015/page13&p=90395#post90395
I could equally well say that R1b-U106, or R1b-L11 as a whole, were initially associated with Globular Amphora Culture.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4664-Request-Y-DNA-haplogroup-results-from-Allentoft-2015&p=92185&viewfull=1#post92185
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=94888&viewfull=1#post94888

Let's wait a bit until we finally have some aDNA for Western Yamna and GAC.

Kopfjäger
08-30-2016, 12:06 PM
And P312 probably expanded from Iberia, while U106 indeed from the Steppe.

Good grief, you have no idea what you're talking about. They only share an immediate father, L11. How could one originate on the far side of the sun when both come from the same source?

Michał
08-30-2016, 12:15 PM
Now that we have a sample of U106 from a Battle Axe context, the proposition of a separate route from P312 is strengthened.
This would be true if ancient P312 was found south of the Carpathian range, but we don't have such ancient DNA data yet.
There were/are three (not two) possible scenarios for the L51/L11 movement westward from the steppe, if not counting the Mediterranean (or maritime) and North African routes that seem much less likely nowadays (if not negatively verified), and these are:

1) Both U106 and P312 (or their common ancestors) arrived to Central/Western Europe traveling along the Danube.

2) U106 and P312 used separate routes when traveling from the steppe to Central/Western Europe, with P312 migrating along the Danube and U106 using the North Carpathian/Polish route.

3) Both U106 and P312 (or their common ancestors) arrived to Central/Western Europe using the North Carpathian (Polish) route.

It seems that scenarios 1 and 2 are strongly preferred on this forum, but I wouldn't dismiss scenario 3 too hastily.



But let's just wait for the pattern to reveal itself further.
Agreed.

Jean M
08-30-2016, 12:52 PM
This would be true if ancient P312 was found south of the Carpathian range, but we don't have such ancient DNA data yet.
There were/are three (not two) possible scenarios for the L51/L11 movement westward from the steppe, if not counting the Mediterranean (or maritime) and North African routes that seem much less likely nowadays (if not negatively verified), and these are:

1) Both U106 and P312 (or their common ancestors) arrived to Central/Western Europe traveling along the Danube.

2) U106 and P312 used separate routes when traveling from the steppe to Central/Western Europe, with P312 migrating along the Danube and U106 using the North Carpathian/Polish route.

3) Both U106 and P312 (or their common ancestors) arrived to Central/Western Europe using the North Carpathian (Polish) route.

It seems that scenarios 1 and 2 are strongly preferred on this forum, but I wouldn't dismiss scenario 3 too hastily.

I certainly wouldn't rule out a mixture along one or both routes. The archaeological evidence shows a massive Yamnaya movement/extension up the Danube and also a Yamnaya spread up the Dniester. Then the end result (in modern populations) suggests P312 domination in western European present and former speakers of Celtic, Italic and related languages, with U106 correlated with Germanic speakers. But things may not be as neat and tidy as P312 up the Danube and U106 up the Dniester. The end result may be the outcome of genetic drift instead of the actual birth of P312 on the Danube route and U106 on the Dniester route. We just don't know at the moment.

Michał
08-30-2016, 01:03 PM
I certainly wouldn't rule out a mixture along one or both routes. The archaeological evidence shows a massive Yamnaya movement/extension up the Danube and also a Yamnaya spread up the Dniester. Then the end result (in modern populations) suggests P312 domination in western European present and former speakers of Celtic, Italic and related languages, with U106 correlated with Germanic speakers. But things may not be as neat and tidy as P312 up the Danube and U106 up the Dniester. The end result may be the outcome of genetic drift instead of the actual birth of P312 on the Danube route and U106 on the Dniester route. We just don't know at the moment.
Actually, we don't even know whether these were Yamna or pre-Yamna L51/L11 movements along those hypothetical routes.

rms2
08-30-2016, 01:07 PM
We also have no Yamnaya y-dna from west of the Don, let alone from as far west as the Carpathian Basin.

rms2
08-30-2016, 01:21 PM
The metallurgy of the Vucedol culture at the end of the Late Copper age, was based on the use of arsenical copper.

The Bell Beaker -Csepel group in the Early Bronze Age for all practicallity did not use arsenic which makes them different than cultures in the Carpathian Basin- Vucedol transition-traditions and is related to different networks.


Possible links between Hungarian and Spanish Beaker Metallurgy:

https://www.academia.edu/5866431/Possible_links_between_Hungarian_and_Spanish_Beake r_Metallurgy

Interesting paper. There is that difference between Vucedol metallurgy and that of Bell Beaker several centuries later. However, a difference or change in the use of arsenic in copper smelting does not mean there was no connection between Vucedol and Bell Beaker. An examination of Bell Beaker and Vucedol and Vucedol off-shoot ceramics shows a pretty obvious connection, as does other aspects of those cultures, as pointed out by Gimbutas.

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We also have a Vucedol period skeleton from Hungary c. 2800 BC that has tested R1b-M343 and is supposed to be undergoing more extensive testing in Reich's Harvard lab.

Jean M
08-30-2016, 01:24 PM
The metallurgy of the Vucedol culture at the end of the Late Copper age, was based on the use of arsenical copper.

The Bell Beaker -Csepel group in the Early Bronze Age for all practicality did not use arsenic which makes them different than cultures in the Carpathian Basin- Vucedol transition-traditions and is related to different networks.

Interesting. The early BB of Iberia (i.e. that in Portuguese regions Estremadura and Altentejo) used copper-arsenic, but the most recent studies indicate that this was derived from a natural source of copper with an arsenic content, which indeed is true of the early copper mines in Iberia. That suggests that the metallurgists were not deliberately making an alloy from separate sources of copper and arsenic, but simply seeking out natural copper-arsenic by its silvery colour.

The paper you cite itself cites a couple of papers re BB in Spain with low arsenic content copper objects, but that could be later BB using a different copper source. I'll take a look.

Balkan copper in the raw state is pretty free of impurities such as arsenic, so the Balkan copper objects of the earliest copper tradition in Europe were pure copper - less hard than arsenical copper.

Jean M
08-30-2016, 01:32 PM
Actually, we don't even know whether these were Yamna or pre-Yamna L51/L11 movements along those hypothetical routes.


We also have no Yamnaya y-dna from west of the Don, let alone from as far west as the Carpathian Basin.

Yes indeed. It is all guesswork so far. Or deduction, as I like to call it. :)

Michał
08-30-2016, 01:43 PM
We also have no Yamnaya y-dna from west of the Don, let alone from as far west as the Carpathian Basin.
Right, so there is still a bit of uncertainty as to whether they were indeed mostly R1b-Z2103 (rather than R1b-L51/L11), just like their "compatriots" from Volga-Yamna and Kalmykia-Yamna.

rms2
08-30-2016, 01:48 PM
Right, so there is still a bit of uncertainty as to whether they were indeed mostly R1b-Z2103 (rather than R1b-L51/L11), just like their "compatriots" from Volga-Yamna and Kalmykia-Yamna.

True, but that would be odd, given the relative scarcity of Z2103 in central and western Europe and the abundance of L51/L11 (and Indo-European languages) there.

Hard to imagine steppe people just getting off their horses and stopping in the Carpathian Basin, content to let their language move on without them.

Michał
08-30-2016, 02:12 PM
True, but that would be odd, given the relative scarcity of Z2103 in central and western Europe and the abundance of L51/L11 (and Indo-European languages) there.
The relative scarcity of Z2103 in Central and Western Europe perfectly corresponds with the scarcity (if not absence) of Yamna findings west of the Middle Danube. So I would rather say that it would be odd if Western Yamna was indeed dominated by R1b-L51/L11, given the scarcity of L51/L11 in SE Europe where the massive Yamna intrusions are so well documented.


Hard to imagine steppe people just getting off their horses and stopping in the Carpathian Basin, content to let their language move on without them.
Firstly, we don't know whether the dialect spoken in Yamna was ancestral to Celtic and Italic (rather than to Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian, which seems much more likely when looking at the current distribution of R1b-Z2103). Secondly, there were many subsequent waves of steppe-derived people moving from Ukraine to the Carpathian basin and neither of them was very successful in stably conquering the territories located further west, so there is no reason to assume that Yamna was so much different in this respect (especially when we find no Yamna kurgans west of Middle Danube).

rms2
08-30-2016, 02:17 PM
Except that we know Indo-European languages moved west and triumphed in central and western Europe. Odd that solidly Z2103 Yamnaya in the Carpathian Basin just happened to hand the IE baton off to R1b-L23 cousins.

If Gimbutas was right, and Bell Beaker was a kind of "Yamnaya 2.0", then we have plenty of evidence of subsequent Yamnaya movement all the way to the Atlantic coast.

Michał
08-30-2016, 02:39 PM
Except that we know Indo-European languages moved west and triumphed in central and western Europe.
Right, but we don't know whether this was associated with Yamna (as you insist) or rather with some other steppe-derived cultures (like Corded Ware and Globular Amphora) that were much better adapted to the non-steppe (forest) conditions and showed some apparent similarities to Bell Beakers.


Odd that solidly Z2103 Yamnaya in the Carpathian Basin just happened to hand the IE baton off to R1b-L23 cousins.
How do you know that this IE baton was handed off by Yamna and not by GAC (or CWC)? Could you please show us any linguistic data that would indicate that Germanic and Italo-Celtic are more closely related to Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian than to Balto-Slavic?


If Gimbutas was right, and Bell Beaker was a kind of "Yamnaya 2.0", then we have plenty of evidence of subsequent Yamnaya movement all the way to the Atlantic coast.
The same is true when assuming that Bell Beaker descended from GAC or CWC, so this proves nothing.

Jean M
08-30-2016, 03:27 PM
Possible links between Hungarian and Spanish Beaker Metallurgy:

I have now realised that I already had that paper, and had already put a copy of it in the Vault! :biggrin1: My memory is hopeless.

George
08-30-2016, 04:08 PM
Right, but we don't know whether this was associated with Yamna (as you insist) or rather with some other steppe-derived cultures (like Corded Ware and Globular Amphora) that were much better adapted to the non-steppe (forest) conditions and showed some apparent similarities to Bell Beakers.


How do you know that this IE baton was handed off by Yamna and not by GAC (or CWC)? Could you please show us any linguistic data that would indicate that Germanic and Italo-Celtic are more closely related to Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian than to Balto-Slavic?


The same is true when assuming that Bell Beaker descended from GAC or CWC, so this proves nothing.

There's no problem with the steppe derivation of CWC. But what are the arguments for GAC also being steppe derived?

rms2
08-30-2016, 04:16 PM
Right, but we don't know whether this was associated with Yamna (as you insist) or rather with some other steppe-derived cultures (like Corded Ware and Globular Amphora) that were much better adapted to the non-steppe (forest) conditions and showed some apparent similarities to Bell Beakers.

Neither Corded Ware nor Globular Amphora penetrated very far west, CW not getting much past the Rhine. So, if we attribute the westward movement of IE to them, we are back to its spread by some mysterious form of osmosis rather than by way of actual migration.



How do you know that this IE baton was handed off by Yamna and not by GAC (or CWC)? Could you please show us any linguistic data that would indicate that Germanic and Italo-Celtic are more closely related to Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian than to Balto-Slavic?

Yamnaya seems a more likely candidate when one understands the role of Bell Beaker in spreading a steppe type culture and probably Italo-Celtic all the way to the Atlantic.

Why is it necessary for Germanic and Italo-Celtic to be more closely related to Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian than to Balto-Slavic if one is not assuming first that Z2103 is responsible for Germanic and Italo-Celtic?



The same is true when assuming that Bell Beaker descended from GAC or CWC, so this proves nothing.

Corded Ware and Bell Beaker were contemporaneous, so it isn't likely either is descended from the other. I have read that Corded Ware may be descended from Globular Amphora but never that Bell Beaker is descended from Globular Amphora.

I am neither a linguist nor an archaeologist, but as a layman I find Gimbutas' account of the genesis of Bell Beaker persuasive, especially in the light of the pretty obvious spread of Indo-European all the way to the Atlantic and in the light of ancient dna results to date.

We have R1b-L23 (in the form of Z2103 and L23*) in eastern Yamnaya and R1b-L23 (in the form of L51) in Bell Beaker. The missing piece is y-dna from Yamnaya west of the Don, especially in the Carpathian Basin. Yamnaya is believed to be largely responsible for the spread of the western branches of IE, and we have those languages now all the way to the Atlantic.

Thus far we don't have any R1b-L23 in Corded Ware, and we don't have any ancient y-dna from Globular Amphora.

George
08-30-2016, 04:37 PM
"I have read that Corded Ware may be descended from Globular Amphora " (#2565) Where did you read this? CWC from the Pig People?:P

BTW we do have some yDNA from GAC (probable) One is G and the other not clearly decided (could be one of three, though not R). Also two K-type mtFDNA

rms2
08-30-2016, 04:41 PM
"I have read that Corded Ware may be descended from Globular Amphora " (#2565) Where did you read this? CWC from the Pig People?:P

Not in the sense that GAC was the sole source. I don't have my books with me, but I recall Mallory saying something to that effect in his In Search of the Indo-Europeans, or quoting others who had said it, and I believe Gimbutas made reference to the possibility in her The Civilization of the Goddess.

I have never seen Bell Beaker attributed to GAC, however.

Michał
08-30-2016, 04:45 PM
There's no problem with the steppe derivation of CWC. But what are the arguments for GAC also being steppe derived?
Honestly, I was initially very skeptical as to the steppe origin of GAC (and still have some doubts), but the supporters of this hypothesis point to their semi-nomadic style of life (no stable houses, just like CWC and BBC) and some peculiar elements of their burial rite (like inclusion of animals). Whatever it was, it should be noted that Gimbutas considered GAC an important part of the so-called second wave of steppe-derived migrations westward. Also, it should be noted that the steppe origin of Corded Ware was also frequently questioned (for example by David Anthony) before the ancient Y-DNA and (most importantly) autosomal data were published.

Michał
08-30-2016, 04:48 PM
BTW we do have some yDNA from GAC (probable) One is G and the other not clearly decided (could be one of three, though not R).
I haven't heard about any Y-DNA (nor autosomal) results for GAC. Could you please provide a link?

Kopfjäger
08-30-2016, 05:32 PM
Right, but we don't know whether this was associated with Yamna (as you insist) or rather with some other steppe-derived cultures (like Corded Ware and Globular Amphora) that were much better adapted to the non-steppe (forest) conditions and showed some apparent similarities to Bell Beakers.


How do you know that this IE baton was handed off by Yamna and not by GAC (or CWC)? Could you please show us any linguistic data that would indicate that Germanic and Italo-Celtic are more closely related to Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian than to Balto-Slavic?


The same is true when assuming that Bell Beaker descended from GAC or CWC, so this proves nothing.

I'm not sure about CWC being the vector of IE into places like the British Isles. Like Rich said, CWC (majority R1a) didn't make it past the Rhine. I guess anything's possible, but I doubt CWC is that candidate.

On the other hand, what I believe is more likely and posited by Michał before, is that L51 represents an earlier (than Yamna), IE-speaking culture that ultimately brings the language to far-flung Western Europe. If we find L51 in Yamna, though, case solved.

Michał
08-30-2016, 06:25 PM
Neither Corded Ware nor Globular Amphora penetrated very far west, CW not getting much past the Rhine. So, if we attribute the westward movement of IE to them, we are back to its spread by some mysterious form of osmosis rather than by way of actual migration.
You apparently misunderstood what I wrote. We both attribute the westward movement of IE mostly to Bell Beakers, only that you derive Bell Beakers from Yamna, while I am more willing to accept some alternative sources of this culture (like GAC and/or CWC). Certainly, both GAC and CWC have penetrated much further west than Yamna, so this alone makes them more likely sources of Bell Beakers.




Yamnaya seems a more likely candidate when one understands the role of Bell Beaker in spreading a steppe type culture and probably Italo-Celtic all the way to the Atlantic.
The only reason why someone would consider Yamna a more likely direct ancestor of Bell Beakers is that R1b-P312 is related to R1b-Z2103. However, we still don't know which Y-DNA haplogroups were common in GAC. Also, when assuming that CWC included some R1b-L51 lineages (and this is quite commonly suggested on this forum, most frequently in relation to R1b-U106, a lineage very closely related to R1b-P312), this would make those CWC members much closer relatives of Bell Beakers than the R1b-Z2103 guys from Yamna (at least as long as no R1b-L11 is found in West Yamna).



Why is it necessary for Germanic and Italo-Celtic to be more closely related to Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian than to Balto-Slavic if one is not assuming first that Z2103 is responsible for Germanic and Italo-Celtic?
As far as I remember, you consider CWC to be a culture related to but not derived from Yamna (which is a view that I strongly support). Also, Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian are commonly considered to be related to each other (just like Italic and Celtic, more or less), and since they all seem to be associated with increased frequencies of R1b-Z2103, I would be surprised if you didn't consider these languages to be derived from an ancestral Yamna dialect. So in case you assume that Germanic, Celtic, Italic, Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian all derive from an IE dialect spoken in Yamna, while Balto-Slavic derives from a distinct IE dialect spoken in Corded Ware, then you should also expect that Germanic and Italo-Celtic are more closely related to Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian than to Balto-Slavic, which doesn't seem to be the case.



Corded Ware and Bell Beaker were contemporaneous, so it isn't likely either is descended from the other.
Corded Ware expanded in Central Europe at least 2-3 centuries before Bell Beaker emerged in this part of the continent (I know you don't derive L51 from Iberia, so we won't argue on this), so this makes it perfectly possible that the Central European Bell Beakers were a result of a local transformation of a specific R1b-rich subgroup of CWC. Personally, I consider it slightly more likely that it was rather a local (Moravian?) subgrouping of GAC, strongly affected by some cultural influences from both CWC and Carpathian Basin, that gave rise to the emergence of the suddenly expanding Bell Beaker culture, as explained elsewhere (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=94888&viewfull=1#post94888), but many alternative scenarios seem possible.



I have read that Corded Ware may be descended from Globular Amphora but never that Bell Beaker is descended from Globular Amphora.
I admit that this hypothesis is far from being commonly accepted, but I don't know any data that would rule it out. Fortunately, the Y-DNA (and autosomal) data for GAC should verify this theory quite easily. However, since GAC was likely a hybrid (steppe/local) population, it could have been a mixture of different haplogroups (for example R1b/I1, R1a/I2a, etc.), so a decent number of GAC samples is needed to rule out the R1b-L51 presence, although identifying a hypothetical autosomal steppe admixture should be much easier.

BTW, the only ancient R1b-U106 sample known to us shows apparent ties with both GAC and CWC (it looks like a member of a GAC-derived community buried in a post-CWC/BA cemetery), so I wouldn't ignore this information.



Yamnaya is believed to be largely responsible for the spread of the western branches of IE, and we have those languages now all the way to the Atlantic.
Please note that Yamna is also quite commonly considered to be ancestral to Corded Ware, and we both have questioned this view on this forum, so you shouldn't be surprised that the Yamna origin of western branches of IE is also questioned. I think the major problem here is that people see Yamna as corresponding to Late PIE, so they assume that all IE languages in Europe must derive from Yamna, thus completely ignoring the slightly earlier steps of IE development that are much more likely to represent the Late PIE stage.



Thus far we don't have any R1b-L23 in Corded Ware, and we don't have any ancient y-dna from Globular Amphora.
Agreed. With no Y-DNA data for Western Yamna and GAC, it will be very difficult to select the most likely scenario (accepted by nearly all of us).

GoldenHind
08-30-2016, 06:28 PM
I certainly wouldn't rule out a mixture along one or both routes. The archaeological evidence shows a massive Yamnaya movement/extension up the Danube and also a Yamnaya spread up the Dniester. Then the end result (in modern populations) suggests P312 domination in western European present and former speakers of Celtic, Italic and related languages, with U106 correlated with Germanic speakers. But things may not be as neat and tidy as P312 up the Danube and U106 up the Dniester. The end result may be the outcome of genetic drift instead of the actual birth of P312 on the Danube route and U106 on the Dniester route. We just don't know at the moment.

Some one pointed out to me a while back that the combined distribution of the three less numerous P312 subclades L238, DF19 and DF99 is remarkably similar to that of U106 as a whole. I suppose this could be coincidental and caused by genetic drift, but that seems unlikely to me. I think this argues against a strict division between the migration routes of U106 and P312, and suggests that at least some of them are likely to have traveled together, whatever route or routes that may have been.

Heber
08-30-2016, 06:30 PM
I'm not sure about CWC being the vector of IE into places like the British Isles. Like Rich said, CWC (majority R1a) didn't make it past the Rhine. I guess anything's possible, but I doubt CWC is that candidate.

On the other hand, what I believe is more likely and posited by Michał before, is that L51 represents an earlier (than Yamna), IE-speaking culture that ultimately brings the language to far-flung Western Europe. If we find L51 in Yamna, though, case solved.

This is exactly the model that I and others who defend an R1b from the East, P312 from the West proposal believe.
I suspect the Caucasus and further south including Maikop, Kura Axaxes, Armenia, Georgia, Zagros will play a role in the East and Perdigoes, Zambujal, VNSP, Morbihan, Cornwall in the West.
Time and hard ancient DNA data will help. In any event I look forward to the resolution of this puzzle whatever the result.

Jean M
08-30-2016, 06:30 PM
I haven't heard about any Y-DNA (nor autosomal) results for GAC. Could you please provide a link?

I suspect the reference may be to Gworys 2013, which reported on a Corded Ware site at Jagodno, Wroclaw, dated to c.2800 BC, which provided two Y-DNA results which were so undecided as to provoke some of our community to gnashing of teeth and wailing, as I recall. What I listed for them was G? and J or I?. My assumption was that they were probably of local farming stock absorbed into the CW as it advanced, I think. But my recollection is vague.

Jean M
08-30-2016, 06:38 PM
Some one pointed out to me a while back that the combined distribution of the three less numerous P312 subclades L238, DF19 and DF99 is remarkably similar to that of U106 as a whole. I suppose this could be coincidental and caused by genetic drift, but that seems unlikely to me. I think this argues against a strict division between the migration routes of U106 and P312, and suggests that at least some of them are likely to have traveled together, whatever route or routes that may have been.

Or if P312 was actually born somewhere along the Danube, a few P312 men could have joined the U106 flow north of the Carpathians, where it would have met the flow from up the Dniester. There are various possibilities, which will get whittled down, I hope, as we get more ancient DNA.

vettor
08-30-2016, 06:42 PM
You apparently misunderstood what I wrote. We both attribute the westward movement of IE mostly to Bell Beakers, only that you derive Bell Beakers from Yamna, while I am more willing to accept some alternative sources of this culture (like GAC and/or CWC). Certainly, both GAC and CWC have penetrated much further west than Yamna, so this alone makes them more likely sources of Bell Beakers.



.

We clearly see that BB is not aligned with haplogroups , be it as some think R1 ( ydna ) or H ( Mtdna )................these markers where already in BB areas of central Europe for thousands of years before BB began.

Clearly the only logical alternative is that the local populace in central Europe at the time learnt a new potting style from ancient traders/merchants

rms2
08-30-2016, 08:56 PM
We clearly see that BB is not aligned with haplogroups , be it as some think R1 ( ydna ) or H ( Mtdna )................these markers where already in BB areas of central Europe for thousands of years before BB began.

Clearly the only logical alternative is that the local populace in central Europe at the time learnt a new potting style from ancient traders/merchants

Sorry to disagree, but thus far BB is clearly aligned with R1, especially R1b-P312, and Corded Ware is clearly aligned with R1a.

I like Michal's thinking though, namely, that some P312 might yet turn up in Corded Ware. It also would not surprise me to see R1a turn up in Bell Beaker.

TigerMW
08-30-2016, 10:16 PM
Or if P312 was actually born somewhere along the Danube, a few P312 men could have joined the U106 flow north of the Carpathians, where it would have met the flow from up the Dniester. There are various possibilities, which will get whittled down, I hope, as we get more ancient DNA.
Perhaps not on the early breakaway north towards Poland, but I think L21 folks could have met up with them as they entered Scandinavia.

Clearly, L21 is NW France and Isles focused but there are early branches found in Scandinavia.

George
08-30-2016, 10:21 PM
I haven't heard about any Y-DNA (nor autosomal) results for GAC. Could you please provide a link?

There's this: http://puvodni.mzm.cz/Anthropologie/article.php?ID=1548 Not 100% certain about the y attribution however.

The Russian language Wikipedia article on GAC speculates on the yDNA of some GAC/ but is it really GAC?

GoldenHind
08-30-2016, 11:40 PM
Perhaps not on the early breakaway north towards Poland, but I think L21 folks could have met up with them as they entered Scandinavia.

Clearly, L21 is NW France and Isles focused but there are early branches found in Scandinavia.

As I have pointed out previously, P312 and U106 appear to be roughly equal in Scandinavia overall, though the percentages vary by location. I believe all the P312 subclades are present in Scandinavia. I have never bought the argument that all of the P312 there is the result of Viking slaves or modern migration, though some portion of it probably is. The Beakers had settlements in Jutland, and their descendants may have later spread to other parts of Scandinavia from there. I don't know what path they took to Denmark, but I think a good possibility is a diffusion from the lower Rhine. Some may have reached what is now northern Germany and Scandinavia from BB settlements to the east on the Oder and Vistula rivers. Some aDNA from these various regions would really be helpful.

David Mc
08-31-2016, 12:26 AM
As I have pointed out previously, P312 and U106 appear to be roughly equal in Scandinavia overall, though the percentages vary by location. I believe all the P312 subclades are present in Scandinavia. I have never bought the argument that all of the P312 there is the result of Viking slaves or modern migration, though some portion of it probably is. The Beakers had settlements in Jutland, and their descendants may have later spread to other parts of Scandinavia from there. I don't know what path they took to Denmark, but I think a good possibility is a diffusion from the lower Rhine. Some may have reached what is now northern Germany and Scandinavia from BB settlements to the east on the Oder and Vistula rivers. Some aDNA from these various regions would really be helpful.

You know I agree with you on this. I do wish (very much) that more Scandinavians would be more aggressive in refining their results down to a SNP level, though.

MitchellSince1893
08-31-2016, 02:04 AM
Some one pointed out to me a while back that the combined distribution of the three less numerous P312 subclades L238, DF19 and DF99 is remarkably similar to that of U106 as a whole. I suppose this could be coincidental and caused by genetic drift, but that seems unlikely to me. I think this argues against a strict division between the migration routes of U106 and P312, and suggests that at least some of them are likely to have traveled together, whatever route or routes that may have been.

Put this together from the FTDNA SNP Maps

11283

While FTDNA's data is definitely weighted towards the British Isles, what's striking is the total lack of samples in Southwestern Europe in all 4 maps.

The DF19 map in particular appears to show a East-West flow/pathway. If P312 originated in the West, then it doesn't appear to be from the Southwest.

Also of note is how the DF99 samples appear to straddle the Alps, while DF19 tends to stay north of the Alps. This would make sense as Alex Williamson's BigTree shows that DF99 is more closely related to U152 and DF27

http://www.ytree.net/#

Full Disclosure: I'm a "From the Steppe" proponent

Gravetto-Danubian
08-31-2016, 02:31 AM
You apparently misunderstood what I wrote. We both attribute the westward movement of IE mostly to Bell Beakers, only that you derive Bell Beakers from Yamna, while I am more willing to accept some alternative sources of this culture (like GAC and/or CWC). Certainly, both GAC and CWC have penetrated much further west than Yamna, so this alone makes them more likely sources of Bell Beakers.

Indeed. We have some indirect signs of Yamnaya Impact to Germany and Bohemia, in the way of an odd individual Kurgan grave (eg one in Bleckendorf, Sax-Anhalt) which looks wholly transplanted from Moldavia, and otherwise indirect links mediated via Balkan-Carpathian centres.

But the key point you rightly highlight is: any theory for BB in Central Europe needs to accommodate the preceding CWC and GAC phases, cumulatively over 4 centuries

(However, to call all these cultures "IE" is IMO problematic; because then we're moving back to a Neolithic hypothesis, but instead of Anatolia- Eastern Europe).



As far as I remember, you consider CWC to be a culture related to but not derived from Yamna (which is a view that I strongly support). Also, Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian are commonly considered to be related to each other (just like Italic and Celtic, more or less), and since they all seem to be associated with increased frequencies of R1b-Z2103, I would be surprised if you didn't consider these languages to be derived from an ancestral Yamna dialect. So in case you assume that Germanic, Celtic, Italic, Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian all derive from an IE dialect spoken in Yamna, while Balto-Slavic derives from a distinct IE dialect spoken in Corded Ware, then you should also expect that Germanic and Italo-Celtic are more closely related to Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian than to Balto-Slavic, which doesn't seem to be the case.

It's possible, but I don't think there is any consensus (these days) for Thracian being too close to Greek over and above their being SE European IE lects. Even the Armenian connection to Greek isn't universally accepted
The Balkans and Anatolia were not the sprawling homogeneous blocks we'd see north of the Carpathians







I admit that this hypothesis is far from being commonly accepted, but I don't know any data that would rule it out. Fortunately, the Y-DNA (and autosomal) data for GAC should verify this theory quite easily. However, since GAC was likely a hybrid (steppe/local) population, it could have been a mixture of different haplogroups (for example R1b/I1, R1a/I2a, etc.), so a decent number of GAC samples is needed to rule out the R1b-L51 presence, although identifying a hypothetical autosomal steppe admixture should be much easier.
Indeed, all the yet unsampled Eneolithic and para-Neolithic cultures from eastern Europe have the potential to modify our understanding of the LN-BA transitions

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 06:11 AM
Put this together from the FTDNA SNP Maps

11283

And here DF27>Z2552>L617:

It seems that after my SNP Pack the amount of L617 in Eastern Europe increased by 100%: :P

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7849-R1b-subclade-prediction&p=183493&viewfull=1#post183493

L617 seems to be relatively common in Cornwall (but British customers are overrepresented):

https://s13.postimg.io/b2rmthmcn/L617_map.png

It can also be found among 1,75 percent of the Basques:

http://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(15)30174-8/fulltext

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/abs/ejhg2015114a.html

https://s9.postimg.io/z76zafqgf/R1b_Bask_w.png

GoldenHind
08-31-2016, 06:37 AM
Put this together from the FTDNA SNP Maps

11283

While FTDNA's data is definitely weighted towards the British Isles, what's striking is the total lack of samples in Southwestern Europe in all 4 maps.

The DF19 map in particular appears to show a East-West flow/pathway. If P312 originated in the West, then it doesn't appear to be from the Southwest.

Also of note is how the DF99 samples appear to straddle the Alps, while DF19 tends to stay north of the Alps. This would make sense as Alex Williamson's BigTree shows that DF99 is more closely related to U152 and DF27

http://www.ytree.net/#

Full Disclosure: I'm a "From the Steppe" proponent

Thanks very much for the maps. However I don't think L624 fits the same pattern. It does make an interesting contrast to the other three as well as to the other P312 subclades. though. What I would like to see is a map which combines L238, DF19 and L238, which individually have different distributions, into a single map. The person I referred to above started on such a map, but had to withdraw from the attempt due to health problems. I haven't the foggiest idea how to go about doing it..

While DF99 does appear south of the Alps, to date they have only been found in the northernmost part of Italy, an area that was settled heavily by various Germanic tribes on the collapse of Rome. This is completely unlike the distribution in Italy of U152. I suppose this could be a coincidence, but if DF99 originated in the Alpine area, it seems odd to me they only went south for a very short distance.

That is not to say that I think all three of these subclades are necessarily exclusively Germanic, or that none of them were present in pre-Roman Britain.

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 07:01 AM
As I have pointed out previously, P312 and U106 appear to be roughly equal in Scandinavia overall

Not in ancient DNA though, and this is all what matters.

Not that we have enough samples, but if we get more samples and still find only U106 in ancient DNA from Scandinavia, then it means that P312 entered Scandinavia recently. By the way - when writing Scandinavia do you mean Norway + Sweden, or also Denmark?

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 08:04 AM
1) Polish R1b according to Myres et al. 2010 (total: 18,35%):

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/suppinfo/ejhg2010146s1.html

U106 - 5,94%

P312 - 5,47% - including:

P312>U152 - 3,47%
DF27 & P312* - 1,01%
P312>L21 - 0,99%

L51>L11* - 0,5%
L51(xL11) - 0,5%

L23(xL51) - 5,44%
M269(xL23) - 0,5%

2) Polish R1b according to Peter Gwozdz (total: 12,5%):

http://www.gwozdz.org/Results.html

U106 - 4,5% - including:

U106>L48>L47>"P Type" - 1,2%
U106>L48>L47>other - 0,4%
U106>L48>Z9 - 1,2%
U106>L48>other - 0,5%
U106(xL48) - 1,2%

P312 - 4,5% - including:

U152>L2 - 1,7%
U152(xL2) - 0,4%
DF27>Z196 - 1,2%
DF27(xZ196) - 0,1%
L21 & P312* - 1,1%

Z2103 - 2,2% - including:

Z2103>Y5587("EE Type")>BY593 - 1,5%
Z2103>Y5587("EE Type")>other - 0,5%
Z2103>all other subclades - 0,2%

M269>other - 1,1%
L754(xM269) - 0,2%

============================

So my subclade is less than 0,1% it seems. Because it is not under DF27>Z196, but DF27(xZ196).

Captain Nordic
08-31-2016, 08:14 AM
As I have pointed out previously, P312 and U106 appear to be roughly equal in Scandinavia overall, though the percentages vary by location. I believe all the P312 subclades are present in Scandinavia. I have never bought the argument that all of the P312 there is the result of Viking slaves or modern migration, though some portion of it probably is. The Beakers had settlements in Jutland, and their descendants may have later spread to other parts of Scandinavia from there. I don't know what path they took to Denmark, but I think a good possibility is a diffusion from the lower Rhine. Some may have reached what is now northern Germany and Scandinavia from BB settlements to the east on the Oder and Vistula rivers. Some aDNA from these various regions would really be helpful.

P312 (or S116 as it is also called) does not seem to be very frequent in Scandinavia...
11285

11286

Or maybe i'm wrong, idk.

Michał
08-31-2016, 08:21 AM
There's this: http://puvodni.mzm.cz/Anthropologie/article.php?ID=1548 Not 100% certain about the y attribution however.
I knew this one, but although these are indeed the GAC samples, only mtDNA results are available.



The Russian language Wikipedia article on GAC speculates on the yDNA of some GAC/ but is it really GAC?
This is from a paper mentioned by Jean M (ie. the Jagodno study), so it doesn't seem to have anything to do with GAC.

A.Morup
08-31-2016, 08:48 AM
You know I agree with you on this. I do wish (very much) that more Scandinavians would be more aggressive in refining their results down to a SNP level, though.
I am from Denmark and have done Big Y. I am U152 > Z367 > Z34 > Z35 and can trace my most distant paternal ancestor to a poor peasant born in Herfolge (south of Copenhagen, Denmark) about 1650.
A decendant of a slave brought from the British Isles to Denmark by the vikings?

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 08:56 AM
^ There was also some influx of Germans to Denmark and the rest of Scandinavia, during the Middle Ages and Early Modern Era.

I also remember reading in one thread what one Norwegian guy wrote, that there was large immigration of Scotsmen to Norway.

These are all relatively recent immigrations (Medieval and Early Modern), after the end of the Viking Age.

Michał
08-31-2016, 09:02 AM
(However, to call all these cultures "IE" is IMO problematic; because then we're moving back to a Neolithic hypothesis, but instead of Anatolia- Eastern Europe).
This is certainly true for GAC (as long as we have no proof of their steppe origin), but are you indeed considering CWC a non-IE culture?



It's possible, but I don't think there is any consensus (these days) for Thracian being too close to Greek over and above their being SE European IE lects. Even the Armenian connection to Greek isn't universally accepted
There is also no such consensus regarding the existence of Italo-Celtic, or even Balto-Slavic, yet we all seem to be willing to accept those hypothetical superfamilies of languages. And the same seems to be true for a relatively distant relationship between Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian (plus Phrygian). This concept is occasionally questioned, but most linguists seem to admit that these languages are very likely to descend from a common post-Late PIE dialect.



The Balkans and Anatolia were not the sprawling homogeneous blocks we'd see north of the Carpathians
It seems to me that you exaggerate a bit. Germanic and Balto-Slavic are relatively unlikely to be more closely related to each other than it is the case for Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian. The major difference is indeed the existence of a very distantly related Anatolian family of languages (if talking about IE only), but these got extinct before any languages spoken north of the Carpathian range became known to the "civilized" world, so who knows what ancient languages would have been recorded there in about 2000 BC if the level of literacy was a bit higher. ;) BTW, was anyone expecting to find one of early diverged IE languages in China?

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 09:13 AM
Here is what Norwegian user Evon wrote about P312 in Norway:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8150-Source-of-L21-in-Norway/page3


The German, Danish, Scottish and Dutch immigration [to Norway] was very substantial and from my own research such immigrants tended to have allot of children who held onto the non-Norwegian surname for generations due to the high status it seems to have held for them. A good example is my Mentz linage on my fathers side, this linage became so large that I am related to the same person several times through several different branches that are intertwined through the centuries..The same is true for several of my other non-Norwegian lines such as Klingenberg, Kramer, Hess, Gray, Maxwell etc..I would suspect that these immigrants represent a large part of the current YDNA genepool in western Norway. This is also reflected in autosomal DNA, with people from western Norway often scoring around 50% "British", which I suspect is really a North German signature and not actually British as FTDNA and 23andme claim etc.

He also posted a map of major historical immigrations to Norway (the file is corrupted, but I found a miniature on Google Images):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8150-Source-of-L21-in-Norway

https://www.google.pl/search?q=https://i.imgsafe.org/1f2318f92d.jpg&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj5mfKeqOvOAhXIuBoKHaQqBVEQ_AUICCgB&biw=1026&bih=470

https://s14.postimg.io/4i1naq2b5/immigrations_to_Norway.png

Apart from major historical immigrations to Norway depicted by the map above, Evon also listed minor historical immigrations:


Other immigration groups I did not include in the map, but which also came from regions where L21+ is found and who settled in western Norway:

- Basque/French?
- Belgian.
- English.
- Icelandic.
- Swiss.
- Italian (north I assume).

Gravetto-Danubian
08-31-2016, 09:17 AM
This is certainly true for GAC (as long as we have no proof of their steppe origin), but are you indeed considering CWC a non-IE culture?

Yep, I was referring to GAC.




There is also no such consensus regarding the existence of Italo-Celtic, or even Balto-Slavic, yet we all seem to be willing to accept those hypothetical superfamilies of languages. And the same seems to be true for a relatively distant relationship between Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian (plus Phrygian). This concept is occasionally questioned, but most linguists seem to admit that these languages are very likely to descend from a common post-Late PIE dialect.

"We" might, but I do not. Well I do, sort of. Another day's discussion. ;)
(NB: Phrygian is closest to Greek & Ancient Macedonian. The similarity of Thracian to Greek is is generally doubted these days. Some go so far as to look north for its affinities.)



It seems to me that you exaggerate a bit. Germanic and Balto-Slavic are relatively unlikely to be more closely related to each other than it is the case for Greek, Armenian and Daco-Thracian. The major difference is indeed the existence of a very distantly related Anatolian family of languages (if talking about IE only), but these got extinct before any languages spoken north of the Carpathian range became known to the "civilized" world, so who knows what ancient languages would have been recorded there in about 2000 BC if the level of literacy was a bit higher. ;) BTW, was anyone expecting to find one of early diverged IE languages in China?

Some exaggeration perhaps, but still correct. Linguistic diversity is a function of economy & geography; ample has been written on this (Nichols, Robb, Ringe).

^^^
I did not imply here that Balto-Slavic, Germanic and Celtic was all that there was in the central-north; we both see similarly that this was a later "pruning" result, IIRC.

Captain Nordic
08-31-2016, 09:20 AM
^ There was also some influx of Germans to Denmark and the rest of Scandinavia, during the Middle Ages and Early Modern Era.

I also remember reading in one thread what one Norwegian guy wrote, that there was large immigration of Scotsmen to Norway.

These are all relatively recent immigrations (Medieval and Early Modern), after the end of the Viking Age.

There were also Irish slaves in Norway who were imported during the Viking ages:
http://sciencenordic.com/immigration-viking-era

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 09:27 AM
because then we're moving back to a Neolithic hypothesis, but instead of Anatolia- Eastern Europe

Who exactly are "Neolithic Eastern Europeans"? Weren't all farmers in Europe descended from Anatolian farmers?

If you check autosomal DNA from Neolithic Germany and Poland, you can also see these Anatolian signatures.

On the other hand, CWC were different - Anatolian ENF was only a small part of their autosomal ancestry.

Captain Nordic
08-31-2016, 09:29 AM
Here is what Norwegian user Evon wrote about P312 in Norway:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8150-Source-of-L21-in-Norway/page3



He also posted a map of major historical immigrations to Norway (the file is corrupted, but I found a miniature on Google Images):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8150-Source-of-L21-in-Norway

https://www.google.pl/search?q=https://i.imgsafe.org/1f2318f92d.jpg&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj5mfKeqOvOAhXIuBoKHaQqBVEQ_AUICCgB&biw=1026&bih=470

https://s14.postimg.io/4i1naq2b5/immigrations_to_Norway.png

Apart from major historical immigrations to Norway depicted by the map above, Evon also listed minor historical immigrations:

I have never heard of any major migrations of Scots, Dutch or Danish people to Norway...
Although the higher presence of L21 on the western coast of Norway is probably due to influences from the British isles or Ireland as we know there were interactions between Celts and Vikings during the Viking ages.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-31-2016, 09:41 AM
Who exactly are "Neolithic Eastern Europeans"?

People who lived in eastern Europe during the Neolithic & "Eneolithic" Era (5000-3000 BC). Here, along the "Gothic trail" (east Baltic -Black sea), hunter-gatherers and pastoralists lived in the Neolithic Era, often alongside farmers; all with different genomic make-up before "homogenising" subsequently; 3-2000 BC (as we'll soon find out).




If you check autosomal DNA from Neolithic Germany and Poland, you can also see these Anatolian signatures.

On the other hand, CWC were different - Anatolian ENF was only a small part of their autosomal ancestry.

I think we all know that - insofar as Germany, and southern & western Poland are concerned. But let's recall that we don't have any "Neolithic" era (full genome) samples east of Germany. The "Neolithic" east of the Oder -Visla was a different beast to that in the Balkan - central Europe axis.

Kopfjäger
08-31-2016, 11:27 AM
And here DF27>Z2552>L617:


L617 seems to be relatively common in Cornwall (but British customers are overrepresented):



While some of your posts are clearly out of this world, I'll drink a pint of West Country cider to that! Maybe you should watch some Cornish rugby.

Psst: You're not Basque!

rms2
08-31-2016, 12:13 PM
And here DF27>Z2552>L617:

It seems that after my SNP Pack the amount of L617 in Eastern Europe increased by 100%: :P . . .

No, there were already two men of Lithuanian ancestry (but with the Polish-looking surnames Sobolewski and Purisky) in the R1b-L617 Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L617?iframe=yresults).

I pointed that project out to you on another thread, but maybe you missed it.

Kopfjäger
08-31-2016, 12:18 PM
I am from Denmark and have done Big Y. I am U152 > Z367 > Z34 > Z35 and can trace my most distant paternal ancestor to a poor peasant born in Herfolge (south of Copenhagen, Denmark) about 1650.
A decendant of a slave brought from the British Isles to Denmark by the vikings?

I think Rich should be able to opine on this. There was a descendant of a U152 Danish Viking that occasionally hallowed this forum. He would be slightly perturbed by your theory. :D

mouse
08-31-2016, 12:49 PM
^ There was also some influx of Germans to Denmark and the rest of Scandinavia, during the Middle Ages and Early Modern Era.

I also remember reading in one thread what one Norwegian guy wrote, that there was large immigration of Scotsmen to Norway.

These are all relatively recent immigrations (Medieval and Early Modern), after the end of the Viking Age.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_people#Scottish_diaspora
"Other European countries have had their share of Scots immigrants. The Scots have been emigrating to mainland Europe for centuries as merchants and soldiers.[52] Many emigrated to France, Poland,[53] Italy, Germany, Scandinavia,[54] and the Netherlands.[55] Recently some scholars suggested that up to 250,000 Russians may have Scottish ancestry.[56]"

jdean
08-31-2016, 01:33 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_people#Scottish_diaspora
"Other European countries have had their share of Scots immigrants. The Scots have been emigrating to mainland Europe for centuries as merchants and soldiers.[52] Many emigrated to France, Poland,[53] Italy, Germany, Scandinavia,[54] and the Netherlands.[55] Recently some scholars suggested that up to 250,000 Russians may have Scottish ancestry.[56]"


Bryan Sykes, the professor of genetics at Oxford University, believes up to 250,000 Russians may have Scottish blood

: ))))

Presumably more of his bikini haplotypes ?

BTW Even if true, which I doubt he would have shown in any way that would be convincing, 1/4 million Russians with Scottish ancestry (from how long ago ?) would be a drop in the ocean and the number with actual Scottish Y-DNA would be minuscule : )

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 01:56 PM
Some of U152 in Denmark could come from the ancient Cimbri, who were probably Celtic (and lived in Jutland surrounded by Non-Celts, just like Celtic Galatians in Asia Minor).

ADW_1981
08-31-2016, 02:04 PM
From my recollection, and unfortunately I cannot cite the source, about 10% of the R1b in southern Sweden is L21. By the time of the Anglo-Saxons, and the later viking period, the R1b in northern Europe was likely a mixed bag of U106 and P312, althought the latter may be less frequent in the north of Europe. I does not mean all of it was a recent immigrant, or the descendant of slaves. It's not a fair comparison because you are not dissecting branches of I1 to the granular level as you are R1b. If there are I1 experts on the forum, I am certain that regional breakdown of very specific subclades of I1 can be performed...it is not all the same.

R.Rocca
08-31-2016, 03:40 PM
From my recollection, and unfortunately I cannot cite the source, about 10% of the R1b in southern Sweden is L21. By the time of the Anglo-Saxons, and the later viking period, the R1b in northern Europe was likely a mixed bag of U106 and P312, althought the latter may be less frequent in the north of Europe. I does not mean all of it was a recent immigrant, or the descendant of slaves. It's not a fair comparison because you are not dissecting branches of I1 to the granular level as you are R1b. If there are I1 experts on the forum, I am certain that regional breakdown of very specific subclades of I1 can be performed...it is not all the same.

A study showed that L21 doubled in coastal Netherlands/Belgium in the past 300 years or so, while maintaining its frequency in the inland areas. It is "perhaps" that the seafaring ways of the British has a lot to do with a sizable chunk of L21 in Scandinavia as well??? (Please apply all typical disclaimers about the dangers of Y-DNA frequency and exclusivity)

"Britannia rules the waves" didn't come out of nowhere after all :D

Radboud
08-31-2016, 05:10 PM
A study showed that L21 doubled in coastal Netherlands/Belgium in the past 300 years or so, while maintaining its frequency in the inland areas.

Which study? Can you give me a link?

R.Rocca
08-31-2016, 05:41 PM
Which study? Can you give me a link?

I remembered incorrectly, it was only Flanders... although my point remains...

"Increasing phylogenetic resolution still informative for Y chromosomal studies on West-European populations" MH Larmuseau et al (2013)
http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(13)00101-4/abstract

GoldenHind
08-31-2016, 05:45 PM
Not in ancient DNA though, and this is all what matters.

Not that we have enough samples, but if we get more samples and still find only U106 in ancient DNA from Scandinavia, then it means that P312 entered Scandinavia recently. By the way - when writing Scandinavia do you mean Norway + Sweden, or also Denmark?

When I refer to Scandinavia, I mean Denmark, Sweden and Norway. They have a common ancestral culture and language. Iceland, while not geographically part of Scandinavia, has a Scandinavian population. Finland, which some people consider to geographically part of Scandinavia, has only a minority population of Scandinavian origin, mainly from Sweden.

How much aDNA do we have from Scandinavia, and where is it from? How much is from Beaker settlement areas?

Captain Nordic
08-31-2016, 06:02 PM
Some of U152 in Denmark could come from the ancient Cimbri, who were probably Celtic (and lived in Jutland surrounded by Non-Celts, just like Celtic Galatians in Asia Minor).

We really can't jump to any conclusions without any ancient dna samples from the Cimbri. While they appear to have been Celtic (Culture, Religion, Chief names etc) there is a possibility that the Cimbri had a ruling Celtic elite with a Germanic substrate, thus explaining the lack of significant amounts of Celtic P312 clades in Denmark and the fact that there are zero Celtic place names in the upper Jutland region.

The distribution of U152 in Denmark does not fit very well with the ancient homeland of the Cimbri as well:
11291
The Cimbri are believed to have lived in the upper Jutland region yet the "peak" of U152 in Denmark is in the South.

GoldenHind
08-31-2016, 06:08 PM
^ There was also some influx of Germans to Denmark and the rest of Scandinavia, during the Middle Ages and Early Modern Era.



Any immigrants from Germany to Scandinavia are at least as likely to have been U106 as P312, if not more so. The same incidentally applies to any slaves brought by the Vikings from the east coast of England, where the Vikings did a lot of raiding. Yet some people seem to think that all the Viking slaves and modern immigrants to Scandinavia were exclusively P312.

GoldenHind
08-31-2016, 06:22 PM
I am from Denmark and have done Big Y. I am U152 > Z367 > Z34 > Z35 and can trace my most distant paternal ancestor to a poor peasant born in Herfolge (south of Copenhagen, Denmark) about 1650.
A decendant of a slave brought from the British Isles to Denmark by the vikings?

U152 is certainly present in Scandinavia, though it doesn't appear to be very common there. My suspicion is that it has had a presence there since the Bronze Age, though it was probably supplemented by later events. To give a better answer to your question, one would have to look at the distribution of your Z235 subclade, as well as at your STR matches.

R.Rocca
08-31-2016, 06:46 PM
I think Rich should be able to opine on this. There was a descendant of a U152 Danish Viking that occasionally hallowed this forum. He would be slightly perturbed by your theory. :D

Morup's U152>Z367>Z34>Z35 group is much more common in the Low Countries than Britain... or anywhere else for that matter. British slaves does not really seem to be the best option for his lineage. :D

R.Rocca
08-31-2016, 06:49 PM
U152 is certainly present in Scandinavia, though it doesn't appear to be very common there. My suspicion is that it has had a presence there since the Bronze Age, though it was probably supplemented by later events. To give a better answer to your question, one would have to look at the distribution of your Z235 subclade, as well as at your STR matches.

It is difficult to say,but I'd agree that most U152 is likely old in Scandinavia. Let's not forget that the German U152+ Bell Beaker sample was found in an area that today "only" has roughly 10% U152, so anything is possible.

GoldenHind
08-31-2016, 06:58 PM
P312 (or S116 as it is also called) does not seem to be very frequent in Scandinavia...
11285

11286

Or maybe i'm wrong, idk.

IMO maps like this aren't very informative. For one thing, it assumes all of P312 has the same distribution, and it clearly does not. The maps show P312 as a whole is most common in the far west of Europe. Yet as pointed out above, several P312 subclades have essentially no presence there at all. The Eupedia site, from which one of your maps is taken, characterizes P312 as Italo-Celtic-Germanic and P312 subclades L238 as Nordic and DF19 as Anglo-Saxon. The last I checked, they still haven't recognized the existence of DF99.

I really don't want to further hijack this thread into a discussion about P312 vs. U106 in Scandinavia, but every source of data I have seen, from Myres/Busby, the Old Norway project, and an analysis of FTDNA Scandinavian YDNA and Denmark YDNA projects by Maciamo himself, show P312 and U106 to roughly equal in Scandinavia.

Maciamo made the following remarks as a result of his analysis: "P312 and its subclades make up 55% of all Scandinavian R1b, enough to break the stereotype that U106 is the only Germanic branch of R1b. Naturally a lot of L21 could be attributed to to Irish and Scottish slaves brought by the Vikings, but that cannot explain all subclades. L238 appears to be almost exclusively of Scandinavian origin (more so than U106)..."

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 07:05 PM
enough to break the stereotype that U106 is the only Germanic branch of R1b

OK, fine. But what about the opposite stereotype that all of U106 is Germanic?

Apparently finding U106 in Pre-Anglo-Saxon, Roman-era Britain was not enough to break it.

To be honest, both U106 and P312 are much older than Proto-Germanic language.

GoldenHind
08-31-2016, 07:13 PM
OK, fine. But what about the opposite stereotype that all of U106 is Germanic?

Apparently finding U106 in Pre-Anglo-Saxon, Roman-era Britain was not enough to break it.

To be honest, both U106 and P312 are much older than Proto-Germanic language.

Although I have no doubt that U106 is primarily Germanic, I have never assumed that it had no presence among the Celts or that it wasn't present to some extent amongst the Beakers. I think the latter issues are still unresolved. Incidentaly I have taken a lot of flak for these positions over the years.

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 07:20 PM
If all of U106 + P312 in modern England = 1000, then proportions of various subclades are roughly:

U106 = 400
L21 = 291
U152 = 147
DF27 = 141
DF19 = 15
other = 6

So 1/2 of English P312 is L21, the other 1/2 is divided equally between U152 and DF27, plus DF19 and others (DF99, L238). When it comes to aDNA, we have all of these subclades already before Anglo-Saxons, except for DF27 and rare ones (DF99 & L238). For example just in Roman-era York, we have:

6DRIF-23 = R1b-DF19
6DRIF-22 = R1b-U152
3DRIF-16 = R1b-U106
6DRIF-3 = R1b-U106
6DRIF-18 = R1b-L21
6DRIF-21 = R1b-L21

And of course we also have other samples of R1b-L21 from Britain and Ireland.

It seems that Celtic Ireland was more homogeneously L21 than Celtic Britain.

Kopfjäger
08-31-2016, 07:22 PM
OK, fine. But what about the opposite stereotype that all of U106 is Germanic?

Apparently finding U106 in Pre-Anglo-Saxon, Roman-era Britain was not enough to break it.

To be honest, both U106 and P312 are much older than Proto-Germanic language.

The problem with this issue, and with DNA in general, is that folks tend to be tribal with their classification of various subclades of R1b (and with other haplogroups). This means that assigning a particular branch or tree to a tidy, cultural label provides some reassurance as to what one's ancestors were. I'm not gonna lie; I do it too.

This isn't to say that some subclades of R1b don't have clear associations with historical populations (e.g. L21 with British/Irish Celts), but that many of these branches were already present in Northwest Europe before the advent of such cultural distinctions shouldn't be too controversial.

Kopfjäger
08-31-2016, 07:25 PM
It seems that Celtic Ireland was more homogeneously L21 than Celtic Britain.

Well, this makes sense considering that Germanic tribes, on the whole, failed to penetrate Ireland until the Viking Age. Great Britain faces the North Sea, and would therefore bear the brunt of the Migration Age advances.

Captain Nordic
08-31-2016, 07:44 PM
IMO maps like this aren't very informative. For one thing, it assumes all of P312 has the same distribution, and it clearly does not. The maps show P312 as a whole is most common in the far west of Europe. Yet as pointed out above, several P312 subclades have essentially no presence there at all. The Eupedia site, from which one of your maps is taken, characterizes P312 as Italo-Celtic-Germanic and P312 subclades L238 as Nordic and DF19 as Anglo-Saxon. The last I checked, they still haven't recognized the existence of DF99.

I really don't want to further hijack this thread into a discussion about P312 vs. U106 in Scandinavia, but every source of data I have seen, from Myres/Busby, the Old Norway project, and an analysis of FTDNA Scandinavian YDNA and Denmark YDNA projects by Maciamo himself, show P312 and U106 to roughly equal in Scandinavia.

Maciamo made the following remarks as a result of his analysis: "P312 and its subclades make up 55% of all Scandinavian R1b, enough to break the stereotype that U106 is the only Germanic branch of R1b. Naturally a lot of L21 could be attributed to to Irish and Scottish slaves brought by the Vikings, but that cannot explain all subclades. L238 appears to be almost exclusively of Scandinavian origin (more so than U106)..."

So what P312 subclades are the most frequent in Scandinavia then? L238? I know there's some U152 scattered around here.

I was under the impression from many members and maciamo that ALL P312 is of Celtic origin, therefore i obviously didn't think it would be especially common in Scandinavia.

Bollox79
08-31-2016, 07:57 PM
I think it's "human nature" to associate with one group or another :-)!

I have an intense interest in this topic... especially because I'm related to both 3drif-16 and in particular 6drif-3. 3drif-16 was found by Alex Williamson to be positive for the SNPs Z304-307 under Z156 and both DF96 and DF98 (Wettin's group) is under the series Z304-307 SNPs... 3drif-16 being DF96+ and possibly L1+ under DF96 - so I match 3drif-16 at Z304-307 then we split at DF96 and DF98.

6drif-3 I am "much" closer to in relation... in the sense that there is currently only one SNP (FGC14840) difference between 6drif-3, myself, and my modern day matches all listed here at http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1330&star=false. 6drif-3 may or may not have been positive for FGC14840 since I believe Alex said he had a no call for that position and a couple others in the cluster listed at the Big Tree link. I share FGC14840 with a Staples, Via (both Americans with colonial lineages - most likely British) and a Swede - Gustafsson. So any discussion about the Roman York samples - I'm interested ;-)! Also here is a pdf that Dr. McDonald maintains of the DF98 group: http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/kings-cluster.pdf there is a nice map of current DF98+ samples on pages 10 and 11...

What do you guys make of the PCA from Eurogenes blog with the Roman era Driffield samples included... they appear to plot with the Beakers CE more than the Corded Ware? Though I'd like to know which one is 6drif-3 etc... 11300

Captain Nordic
08-31-2016, 08:00 PM
OK, fine. But what about the opposite stereotype that all of U106 is Germanic?

Apparently finding U106 in Pre-Anglo-Saxon, Roman-era Britain was not enough to break it.

To be honest, both U106 and P312 are much older than Proto-Germanic language.

The oldest U106 that we have found so far came from a set of Nordic bronze age remains from Lilla Beddinge in Sweden dating back 2300 BC, a culture that is widely associated with the development of Proto-germanic speakers.

There is no doubt that U106 is mainly Germanic as it peaks among Germanic speakers that have had no contacts with Celts (Frisians, Northern germans, Danes etc).
U106 is clearly the strongest in the eastern areas of Britain and clearly matches the arrival of the Anglo Saxons. In ultra Celtic Ireland U106 is super rare and frequencies in Wales are very low as well.

If there actually are Pre-Anglo Saxon U106 samples then that would be interesting but since the Welsh are the closest match to these Iron age/Roman-era Britons, and since we already know that U106 isn't very frequent among the Welsh, it probably wasn't among them either.

Bollox79
08-31-2016, 08:00 PM
P.S. for the record... I don't have an agenda... I just want to follow the data and find my particular male paternal line through time whether it was Germanic, Celtic, or a mix of both... the important thing for me was that 6drif-3 got stuck in and was fighting apparently. That put a smile on my face. That runs in the family ;-)!

Kopfjäger
08-31-2016, 08:09 PM
P.S. for the record... I don't have an agenda... I just want to follow the data and find my particular male paternal line through time

Sigh... that's been my goal for over seven years now.

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 08:09 PM
The oldest U106 that we have found so far came from a set of Nordic bronze age remains from Lilla Beddinge in Sweden dating back 2300 BC

Yes, but U106 is still considerably (at least several centuries) older than 2300 BC.

So men with U106 could already live in several different regions by year 2300 BC.

Bollox79
08-31-2016, 08:11 PM
Captain Nordic,

Based on isotope analysis on the Roman Driffield samples 6drif-3 and 3drif-16 there is a good chance they were locally born... 6drif-3 in particular fits well with a data set from a medieval cemetery near Bamburgh castle (Bowl Hole cemetery) as an oxygen reading (whatever the symbol for that it) of 17 - which is more "common" for the leeward or East side of Northern England... in addition to his strontium and ppm readings etc. Keep in mind these samples were dated to - quick summary here -

Excavations at 6 Driffi eld Terrace, York during June-August 2005 revealed part of the Roman cemetery known from previous discoveries in and around The Mount. Twentyfour inhumation burials and one cremation were found; most if not all were adult males. The inhumations are notable for the presence of at least ten decapitations. These characteristics of the burials are comparable to those found at 1-3 Driffi eld Terrace in 2004-5. However, the cemetery at 6 Driffi eld Terrace is thought to commence in the 3rd century and the decapitation rite is believed to have taken place during the later 3rd and 4th centuries, somewhat later than at No.3.

Cheers!

rms2
08-31-2016, 08:49 PM
OK, fine. But what about the opposite stereotype that all of U106 is Germanic?

Apparently finding U106 in Pre-Anglo-Saxon, Roman-era Britain was not enough to break it.

Why would that counter that idea that U106 was a major haplogroup among the ancient Germanic peoples? We know the Romans brought people from all over their far flung empire to Britain, and those U106 skeletons likely belonged to soldiers or gladiators.

The evidence that U106 is a major Germanic lineage is so overwhelming that it takes a certain kind of very obstinate blindness to miss it.



To be honest, both U106 and P312 are much older than Proto-Germanic language.

That old chestnut gets repeated constantly, but it is really a non sequitur. The age of the haplogroup does not really matter. What matters is whether or not enough members of the haplogroup became associated with an ethnolinguistic group at some point during its development and spread to make it apparent that there is a close association.

The very first U106 to emerge from his mother's womb need not have spoken some form of German. No doubt he did not. But enough of his descendants did, and very evidently spread during the Völkerwanderung, that the modern distribution of U106 makes its close association with Germanic peoples readily evident.

The fact that the oldest known set of U106+ remains thus far recovered were unearthed from the Nordic Battle Axe cemetery of Lilla Beddinge in Sweden is not all that startling, given what we know of U106.

U106 could turn up in Bell Beaker tomorrow, but thus far it hasn't, despite the growing list of Bell Beaker y-dna test results, many of them from places where U106 is quite common today. A number of scholars associate Bell Beaker with the spread of Italo-Celtic. It seems to be quite telling that P312 is showing up in Bell Beaker, but U106 is not. Instead, a U106 skeleton contemporaneous with Bell Beaker elsewhere (c. 2300 BC) turned up in Sweden.

I should not have to issue the following caveat, but I know it is necessary. Here goes. In order to be able to say anything meaningful about a y haplogroup in general, one has to be able to, well, er, generalize. Thus, saying that U106 is one of the major Germanic haplogroups is NOT the same thing as saying every last U106 man ever born was some kind of German. There are always exceptions.

Captain Nordic
08-31-2016, 09:09 PM
Captain Nordic,

Based on isotope analysis on the Roman Driffield samples 6drif-3 and 3drif-16 there is a good chance they were locally born... 6drif-3 in particular fits well with a data set from a medieval cemetery near Bamburgh castle (Bowl Hole cemetery) as an oxygen reading (whatever the symbol for that it) of 17 - which is more "common" for the leeward or East side of Northern England... in addition to his strontium and ppm readings etc. Keep in mind these samples were dated to - quick summary here -

Excavations at 6 Driffi eld Terrace, York during June-August 2005 revealed part of the Roman cemetery known from previous discoveries in and around The Mount. Twentyfour inhumation burials and one cremation were found; most if not all were adult males. The inhumations are notable for the presence of at least ten decapitations. These characteristics of the burials are comparable to those found at 1-3 Driffi eld Terrace in 2004-5. However, the cemetery at 6 Driffi eld Terrace is thought to commence in the 3rd century and the decapitation rite is believed to have taken place during the later 3rd and 4th centuries, somewhat later than at No.3.

Cheers!

What do you mean with they were locally born?
Do you mean locally born as in born in England?

The reason why i used the Welsh as a proxy for these Roman age samples is because they are genetically much closer to them than the English are, who have a lot of their ancestry, if not most of it, arriving from the 5th century and onwards :)

rms2
08-31-2016, 09:17 PM
What do you mean with they were locally born?
Do you mean locally born as in born in England?

They could have been, based on isotopic analysis, but they might have been born across the Channel in the Low Countries, as well.



The reason why i used the Welsh as a proxy for these Roman age samples is because they are genetically much closer to them than the English are, who have a lot of their ancestry, if not most of it, arriving from the 5th century and onwards :)

They had mothers, as well as fathers, and they got half their 22 pairs of autosomal chromosomes from their mothers, who might have been local women.

Uniparental markers like y-dna are easier to trace.

Bollox79
08-31-2016, 09:23 PM
Captain Nordic,

Have a look at this paper here: http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Mueldner-et-al-2011-Headless-Romans-JAS-Accepted.pdf

It covers the skeletons from 6 Driffield including my ancestor 6drif-3 - though his sample is number 6drif-1 in this paper since his skeleton was number 3 in his grave, but there was a cremation (last burial in the area apparently) that was buried on top of his grave, and they removed his skull and placed it in the wooden box they placed the cremation in... so his skeleton was numbered 3 and his skull numbered 1 apparently - if that makes sense.

It goes over the samples - in particular I was paying attention to 6drif-1 - "Eight individuals (6Drif-01, 02, 06,
07, 08, 09, 12, 17) fall within the core
British range for oxygen (see Figure 2)."

"When the oxygen and strontium isotope data are considered in combination, it appears that only five individuals (6Drif-01, 06, 07, 12, 17) are easily consistent with a childhood spent locally."

Bollox79
08-31-2016, 09:25 PM
Captain Nordic,

Have a look at this paper here: http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Mueldner-et-al-2011-Headless-Romans-JAS-Accepted.pdf

It covers the skeletons from 6 Driffield including my ancestor 6drif-3 - though his sample is number 6drif-1 in this paper since his skeleton was number 3 in his grave, but there was a cremation (last burial in the area apparently) that was buried on top of his grave, and they removed his skull and placed it in the wooden box they placed the cremation in... so his skeleton was numbered 3 and his skull numbered 1 apparently - if that makes sense.

It goes over the samples - in particular I was paying attention to 6drif-1 - "Eight individuals (6Drif-01, 02, 06,
07, 08, 09, 12, 17) fall within the core
British range for oxygen (see Figure 2)."

"When the oxygen and strontium isotope data are considered in combination, it appears that only five individuals (6Drif-01, 06, 07, 12, 17) are easily consistent with a childhood spent locally."

Bollox79
08-31-2016, 09:27 PM
opps sorry for the double post!! Still getting used to this forum... should I delete it?

Bollox79
08-31-2016, 09:37 PM
though as rms2 mentions about the continental possibility (Low Countries etc.) this paper stated this: "While not nearly as unusual, 6Drif-01 and 3Drif-35
also stand out by their high carbon isotope ratios, which are outside the 2σ range for humans from Roman York (Figure 3). Their dietary signal is somewhat more ambiguous, as it could reflect the contribution of some, but
relatively little, C4-based protein to the diet, the consumption of large amounts of relatively low trophic level marine foods (Richards and Hedges, 1999) or simply differences in the isotopic composition of C3 plants between areas of different climate (van Klinken, et al., 2000; see Richards, et al., 1998). Whatever their cause, these values are distinctive enough from the rest of the York humans to call into question whether these two individuals were really part of the same local population. Although dietary variations between individuals of the same community, motivated by differences in status, social group or gender, do, of course, occur, it is rare that such differences are substantial enough in isotopic terms to produce completely separate distributions within the same population (e.g. Richards et al., 1998; Le Huray & Schutkowski, 2005; Müldner & Richards, 2007b). Given the large sample size and the relatively narrow clustering of the bulk of the York humans, migration from elsewhere seems a good explanation for 6-Drif-01 and 3Drif-35's unusual isotope signals. Although their strontium and oxygen isotope signatures are consistent with a local origin (Figure 2), it is
worth remembering that the "typical" values definedfor York are relatively generic and would equally fit numerous regions of similar climate and geology on the European continent (see Leach, et al., 2009). Indeed, the results of lead isotope analysis conducted in a separate study indicate a non-British origin at least for 3Drif-35 (Montgomery, et al., in press-a)."

Cheers!

rms2
08-31-2016, 09:49 PM
Of course, this is really not the thread to debate the Roman bodies from York. We went round and round on all that when the report first came out. Some of those might have been born locally, but they could have been born right across the Channel, since I understand the isotopic values there do not differ that much from those in York. Nevertheless, even if they were born locally, that is no proof that U106 was of longstanding in Britain or predated the Romans there. Personally, I think the distribution of U106 in the Isles too closely matches that of the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants the English for there to have been much U106 in the Isles before the Anglo-Saxons arrived. What was there before the Anglo-Saxons, as in this instance, was of Roman provenance, and we know there were Germanic auxilia serving in the Roman Army in Britain.

Bollox79
08-31-2016, 10:01 PM
rms2 I'm not debating this on this thread... simply said I'm interested, and Captain Nordic was interested so I thought I'd send him some of the info I read from the papers.

That being said opinions are like a-holes and everyone has one... I know a lot about DF98 and the dating Iain McDonald has done on all those SNPs from Big Y - DF98 clusters along the Upper Rhine strangely similar to La Tene and Halstatt burial grounds around those same Upper Rhine areas. Go look at the map at Iain's pdf... and a map of chariot burials along the Upper Rhine. Also as for modern day clustering = a possible match with an ancient sample = in our case of 6drif-3 it held true in the sense that the s4004 group has a strong presence in Northeastern England and Scotland... and surprise! 6rif-3 was positive for S4004... and matched several people who are from there today.

Modern distribution could theoretically = ancient sample matches in the same area, so I'm willing to bet some DF98ers might be found in the ancient samples around the Upper Rhine if that continues to hold true. Does that make they halstatt or la tene if found in that context? Also you said yourself there are always exceptions... to any group ;-).

At the end of the day I just want to chat to some fellow genetic OCD guys about the romans from York... shoot the shit a bit ;-).

Bollox79
08-31-2016, 10:07 PM
Personally I'd be pleased if 6drif-3 turned out to be some Germanic Ala cavalry soldier or something along those lines... since he was 6 feet tall and that was the requirement for the Auxiliary Ala according to Vegetius ;-).

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 10:16 PM
I think the distribution of U106 in the Isles too closely matches that of the Anglo-Saxons

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6154-Y-DNA-Haplogroup-Percentages-and-maps-for-England-Source-FTDNA-Y-DNA-projects

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b4/73/c0/b473c059a7f151d041da466626729166.png

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5295-R-U106-in-Great-Britain-Distribution-map

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5754&stc=1

rms2
08-31-2016, 10:21 PM
I think you ought to start a separate thread about it. Like I said, U106 in the Isles matches the distribution of the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants the English too closely for much U106 to predate them there. I don't think modern Germans testing DF98+ have much to do with La Tene and Hallstatt chariot burials there either, since we know German came to be spoken there and supplanted Celtic, and that German got there in the mouths of Germanic speakers. There are Celtic burials in eastern England where U106ers tread today speaking a Germanic language.

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 10:22 PM
P312 in England is most common 1) in Cornwall and 2) near the Scottish border:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/47/37/eb/4737eb510f3065c97987fde27c861ce8.png

Bollox79
08-31-2016, 10:25 PM
Fair enough... I wouldn't mind starting a thread about the Roman York samples and some speculation about them... (I have a great list of tombstone and associated funeral objects found in and around Driffield Estate were these guys were buried...) and would like to discuss it with people...

rms2
08-31-2016, 10:28 PM
Tomenable, I think you ought to stick with maps based on scientific studies, but you should also take a look at the distribution of U106 in the Isles as a whole. It reaches its maximum in SE England (Angle Land) and drops like a rock once one crosses into the Celtic fringe countries. This is not the thread to argue about King David I's settlement of Northumbrians in Scotland and the little U106 spike where they settled, etc.

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 10:30 PM
Tomenable, I think you ought to stick with maps based on scientific studies

If you mean Eupedia's map then it is no more or less scientific than Passa's map or Mitchell's map.

By the way, I would like too see maps showing the distribution of various subclades of U106.

If people make separate maps for various subclades of P312, then why not for subclades of U106?

rms2
08-31-2016, 10:31 PM
P312 in England is most common 1) in Cornwall and 2) near the Scottish border:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/47/37/eb/4737eb510f3065c97987fde27c861ce8.png

Note the difference in the frequency scales between the P312 map and the U106 map.

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 10:32 PM
Note the difference in the frequency scales

I noted it. But what is your point?

rms2
08-31-2016, 10:33 PM
If you mean Eupedia's map then it is no more or less scientific than Passa's map or Mitchell's map.

By the way, I would like too see maps showing the distribution of various subclades of U106.

If people make separate maps for various subclades of P312, then why not for subclades of U106?

I wasn't talking about the Eupedia map, which I could have posted. Let's get back to Bell Beaker, which thus far is 0% U106.

jdean
09-01-2016, 01:05 AM
Note the difference in the frequency scales between the P312 map and the U106 map.

Weird it's so low on the Welsh border, who'd have thought that bund would have worked so well : )

Captain Nordic
09-01-2016, 10:21 AM
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6154-Y-DNA-Haplogroup-Percentages-and-maps-for-England-Source-FTDNA-Y-DNA-projects

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5295-R-U106-in-Great-Britain-Distribution-map

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5754&stc=1

As far as i know, the second map was made by a fellow member on here and is thus not scientific.

rms2
09-01-2016, 01:15 PM
As far as i know, the second map was made by a fellow member on here and is thus not scientific.

And it clearly reflects the distribution and spread of the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants, the English.

Thus far, there is no U106 in Bell Beaker (to get back on topic).

ADW_1981
09-01-2016, 01:47 PM
I hate to keep the sidebar going, but it's quite possible that only specific subclades of R1b were among the Anglo-Saxon invaders. For instance, L48 is more likely than U106(xL48), since the latter was found among the York Celtic Gladiators. It doesn't mean all of U106 fits nicely into one tribe of people. (ie: Celtic Britons)

rms2
09-01-2016, 01:50 PM
I hate to keep the sidebar going, but it's quite possible that only specific subclades of R1b were among the Anglo-Saxon invaders. For instance, L48 is more likely than U106(xL48), since the latter was found among the York Celtic Gladiators. It doesn't mean all of U106 fits nicely into one tribe of people. (ie: Celtic Britons)

Maybe someone could start a separate thread on this subject? I believe the clade of U106 that was found in York is fairly well represented in Germany (and is in fact that of the German Royal House of Wettin).

Bollox79
09-01-2016, 03:00 PM
Started a separate thread on the Roman Gladiators here: Roman "Celtic British?" Gladiator/Soldiers of York/Eboracum speculation! ;-).

rms2
09-05-2016, 11:19 PM
Things are pretty boring around here right now. Can't wait until that big Bell Beaker paper with 67 ancient Bell Beaker genomes hits. Should be fun. I'll bet whatever thread covers it has at least six pages before I even see it.

GoldenHind
09-05-2016, 11:30 PM
I agree with all that. Do we have any idea where the Beaker samples were collected? I hope they include some from areas beyond those previously sequenced.

David Mc
09-06-2016, 12:06 AM
Indeed. We're quite sure, aren't we, that this will include y-DNA? If they only tested for mtDNA I think we would have a new benchmark for anticlimaxes.

rms2
09-06-2016, 12:11 AM
Someone (Rich Rocca, I think) posted about it awhile back. It's due out in the autumn (soon!) and includes 67 Bell Beaker genomes, some from the British Isles, the Czech Republic, Iberia, and elsewhere in Europe. I think y-dna is supposed to be part of the package.

David Mc
09-06-2016, 12:27 AM
Someone (Rich Rocca, I think) posted about it awhile back. It's due out in the autumn (soon!) and includes 67 Bell Beaker genomes, some from the British Isles, the Czech Republic, Iberia, and elsewhere in Europe. I think y-dna is supposed to be part of the package.

Fantastic.

Jean M
09-06-2016, 11:20 AM
Someone (Rich Rocca, I think) posted about it awhile back. It's due out in the autumn (soon!) and includes 67 Bell Beaker genomes, some from the British Isles, the Czech Republic, Iberia, and elsewhere in Europe. I think y-dna is supposed to be part of the package.

I think that figure comes from the press report in Catalan, translated as 67 individuals from the Bell Beaker culture, which include samples from Portugal, England, France, Italy, Germany, Czech Republic, Hungary and Spain.

ArmandoR1b
09-06-2016, 03:55 PM
Someone (Rich Rocca, I think) posted about it awhile back. It's due out in the autumn (soon!) and includes 67 Bell Beaker genomes, some from the British Isles, the Czech Republic, Iberia, and elsewhere in Europe. I think y-dna is supposed to be part of the package.


I think that figure comes from the press report in Catalan, translated as 67 individuals from the Bell Beaker culture, which include samples from Portugal, England, France, Italy, Germany, Czech Republic, Hungary and Spain.

It was first reported by Alberto (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2016/06/the-man-with-flat-occiput.html?showComment=1464877192259#c2658023791 060852426) in a post at the Eurogenes Blog and then an Anthrogenica poster told us to expect a big Bell Beaker paper this year, (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3978-When-are-we-to-expect-the-next-round-of-ancient-y-dna-results&p=161363&viewfull=1#post161363) , to which Jean M responded (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3978-When-are-we-to-expect-the-next-round-of-ancient-y-dna-results&p=161418&viewfull=1#post161418) that it must be the one reported by the Catalan press. Even though Alberto had provided a link to a cached site a Google search of Estudi_Jaciment_Carrer_Paris bring up links to three different news reports including the following one from 9 May 2016 - http://cerdanyolainforma.com/2016/05/09/restes-humanes-al-jaciment-del-carrer-paris/


Es donen a conèixer els primers resultats de l’estudi genètic de les restes humanes del jaciment del carrer de París.

Jaciment_del_carrer_de_ParisL’anàlisi de les mostres de les restes humanes del jaciment de la cultura campaniforme del carrer París ha permès determinar el sexe, l’ADN mitocondrial, el cromosoma Y (en els individus masculins), les relacions de parentiu, els trets físics externs i les afinitats poblacionals amb altres grups contemporanis.

El jaciment de la cultura campaniforme del carrer París s’inscriu en un projecte més ampli que ha de permetre reconstruir aquesta cultura. Es tracta d’un projecte internacional en el què hi participen institucions com el Broad Institute d’Harvard, el Max Plank Institute for the Science of Human History o l’Institute of Evolutionary Biology (CSIC-UPF).

El principal objectiu del projecte és esbrinar si aquesta cultura es correspon a un moviment de persones o d’idees, és a dir si els diversos elements culturals que identifiquem com a campaniformes es van difondre a través de xarxes comercials o d’altra mena o van ser directament aportades per grups de gent en moviment amb una genètica específica diferenciable de les poblacions autòctones. Per determinar-ho es comparen les mostres trobades en diferents jaciments de cultura campaniforme i també es comparen amb les mostres de poblacions neolítiques anteriors en cada una de les zones geogràfiques considerades. Actualment es disposa d’informació genòmica de 67 individus de la cultura campaniforme, que inclouen mostres de Portugal, Anglaterra, França, Itàlia, Alemanya, Txèquia, Hongria i Espanya, entre les quals es troba les de l’hipogeu del carrer de París.

L’estudi genètic de les restes humanes analitzades del jaciment cerdanyolenc ha donat resultats positius en 11 mostres i se n’ha pogut determinar el sexe, l’AND mitocondrial, el cromosoma Y (en els individus masculins), les relacions de parentiu, els trets físics externs i les afinitats poblacionals amb altres grups contemporanis. Dues de les mostres corresponen a parents de primer grau de sexe femení (dues germanes, mare i filla…). A més s’ha pogut saber, per exemple, que una de les dones no tolerava la lactosa i que una altra tenia els ulls marrons.

La cultura Campaniforme

La seva cronologia i interpretació són avui objecte de discussió. Els testimonis més antics es localitzen a Portugal a cavall del calcolític i l’edat del bronze entre el 2500 i el 1800 aC. Arribarà a estendre’s per gran part del continent europeu (França, Alemanya, Itàlia, Hongria, Txèquia…). Característic d’aquesta cultura és el vas campaniforme, fet de ceràmica, amb una forma que recorda la d’una campana invertida i decorat amb detalls geomètrics gravats. Aquests vasos han aparegut majoritàriament en contextos funeraris i també se’ls ha trobat en àmbits domèstics. En general la seva aparició es relaciona amb la difusió de la metal·lúrgia del coure a través d’Europa Occidental.


An imperfect translation from Google produces the following -


We present the first results of the genetic study of human remains from the site of Paris street.

Jaciment_del_carrer_de_Paris The analysis of samples of human remains from the site of the street culture bell Paris reveals that sex, mitochondrial DNA, the Y chromosome (in the male individuals), family relations, external physical features population affinities with other contemporary groups.

The site of the culture bell Paris street is part of a larger project that will allow rebuild that culture. It is an international project in which participating institutions like Harvard Broad Institute of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History and the Institute of Evolutionary Biology (CSIC-UPF).

The main objective of the project is to find out if this culture corresponds to a movement of people and ideas, ie if the various cultural elements that identify as bell spread through networks or other commercial or van be provided directly to groups of people with a specific genetic differentiable movement of indigenous peoples. To determine this we compare the samples found in different fields of culture bell and compared with samples of Neolithic populations above in each of the geographic areas considered. Presently genomic information of 67 individuals from the culture bell, which include samples from Portugal, England, France, Italy, Germany, Czech Republic, Hungary and Spain, among which is the Hypogeum the street of Paris.

The genetic study of human remains from the site analyzed Cerdanyola has yielded positive results in 11 samples and it has been determined sex, AND mitochondrial chromosome Y (in the male individuals), family relations, the physical characteristics and external population affinities with other contemporary groups. Two of the samples correspond to first-degree relatives of females (two sisters, mother and daughter ...). It has also been told, for example, that women do not tolerate lactose and another had brown eyes.

Culture Bell

His chronology and interpretation are discussed today. The witnesses are located in the older horse of Portugal Chalcolithic and Bronze Age between 2500 and 1800 BC. Reach extended across much of Europe (France, Germany, Italy, Hungary, Czech Republic ...). Characteristic of this culture is the glass bell, made of ceramic with a shape reminiscent of an inverted bell engraved and decorated with geometric details. These vessels have appeared mostly in funerary contexts were also found in the domestic setting. Usually their appearance is related to the diffusion of the metallurgy of copper through Western Europe.

Jean M
09-06-2016, 05:01 PM
Els testimonis més antics es localitzen a Portugal a cavall del calcolític i l’edat del bronze entre el 2500 i el 1800 aC.

I suggest that a better translation of the above would be:


Its oldest witnesses are located in Portugal riding [bridging?] the Copper and Bronze Ages between 2500 and 1800 BC.

ArmandoR1b
09-06-2016, 05:53 PM
I suggest that a better translation of the above would be:


Its oldest witnesses are located in Portugal riding [bridging?] the Copper and Bronze Ages between 2500 and 1800 BC.

I looked up the definition of cavall (http://www.wordreference.com/definicio/cavall) and there is an entry for "a cavall" which states "Entre dos períodes o situacions diferents:" which means "between two periods or different situations"

So I would translate it as


The most ancient evidence is located in Portugal between the Copper and Bronze Ages between 2500 and 1800 BC

R.Rocca
09-06-2016, 06:15 PM
I looked up the definition of cavall (http://www.wordreference.com/definicio/cavall) and there is an entry for "a cavall" which states "Entre dos períodes o situacions diferents:" which means "between two periods or different situations"

So I would translate it as

Between... that is the meaning in Italian as well (a cavallo).

Jean M
09-06-2016, 07:36 PM
Much as I would have liked horses to come into this, I rather thought that would be too much too hope. ;)

Heber
09-06-2016, 10:19 PM
à cheval (on horseback) en Francais
Between, straddling, one leg on either side

razyn
09-11-2016, 04:25 PM
I would be interested in getting a small sample of I0806's DNA and complete major subclade testing... Answering where he is really placed on the tree 4200 years ago.

MJost


Well, they already tested him for everything on ISOGG's tree as of April 2013. They just did not get any reads for L21, DF27, and U152. I guess we'll have to be happy with P312+.

I think neither of you gentlemen have noticed the thread in which Rich Rocca and Alex Williamson have reexamined I0806 (a sample that was sequenced twice, and not all calls are present in both data sets). They find him also to be ZZ11+ (the not universally recognized parent of U152 and DF27) and DF27+. He's also the earliest DF27 yet detected anywhere; and the "where" (Quedlinburg, in central Germany) is on a branch of the Elbe river. Not the Danube, not the Rhine, not farther west. Rms2 has already mentioned the mixture of Corded Ware and Bell Beaker material in the burial. There is also some chat about the difference in published range of 14C dates (of his own bones); I believe most of us have agreed to let the Haak et al. 2015 range stand. If we do that -- he's a 50+ year old guy, buried between 2296 and 2206 BC. So born in about 2310, give or take half a century.

The whole thread is relevant enough to read for the pro and con arguments, Armando's musings about how right YFull dating seems, etc. But I'll just tag the post in which Rich and Alex concur on the DF27+ call: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8476-More-Bell-Beaker-U152-and-one-ZZ11&p=185448&viewfull=1#post185448

R.Rocca
09-12-2016, 07:09 PM
Someone with the the handle "Ariele" on Eurogenes posted the following to blog owner David (aka Generalisimo)...

All I'm saying that we can't exclude the existence of populations that were mostly WHG/EHG (with some EEF) and with no or little R1 that lived in eastern europe and scandinavia right before IE started moving outside Russia.

To which David replied as follows...

Well, I reckon your jaw will hit the floor when you see what was in Eastern Europe west of Russia just prior to the Indo-European expansion. But there's no point continuing this discussion now.

I get the sense that David has some insights into the results of some soon to be published paper(s), and that they will only confirm the R1 steppe model. Hopefully we will not be made to wait too much longer. B)

jdean
09-12-2016, 07:26 PM
Someone with the the handle "Ariele" on Eurogenes posted the following to blog owner David (aka Generalisimo)...


To which David replied as follows...


I get the sense that David has some insights into the results of some soon to be published paper(s), and that they will only confirm the R1 steppe model. Hopefully we will not be made to wait too much longer. B)

Hope so, getting a bit hacked off with all the straw clutching going on.

Jean M
09-12-2016, 08:13 PM
I get the sense that David has some insights into the results of some soon to be published paper(s)...

David is referring to a forthcoming paper on aDNA from the Baltic region, which has been read at a conference; so he knows the results, but has evidently been sworn to secrecy prior to publication. He has said the results are as he expected. I cannot speak for his expectations, but given what we already know, I would expect R1 there before the steppe expansions. I would expect it to have been carried by the hunter-gatherers who brought the earliest pottery to the Baltic and perhaps by the pressure-blade makers too. So these would be types of R1 earlier and less common than the ones which dominate Europe now.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-12-2016, 08:56 PM
Except he's doing a lousy job of it )

R.Rocca
09-13-2016, 02:14 PM
Except he's doing a lousy job of it )

Not sure I follow.... doing a lousy job of keeping the info to himself, or lousy job interpreting the results?

Jean M
09-13-2016, 02:39 PM
Not sure I follow.... doing a lousy job of keeping the info to himself, or lousy job interpreting the results?

David has not interpreted the results on his blog. Nor has he given them out in public or to me privately. The prediction above is my own.

ADW_1981
09-13-2016, 04:11 PM
David has not interpreted the results on his blog. Nor has he given them out in public or to me privately. The prediction above is my own.

It could be due to the quote from a poster
"All I'm saying that we can't exclude the existence of populations that were mostly WHG/EHG (with some EEF) and with no or little R1 that lived in eastern europe and scandinavia right before IE started moving outside Russia."

David responds with:
"Well, I reckon your jaw will hit the floor when you see what was in Eastern Europe west of Russia just prior to the Indo-European expansion. But there's no point continuing this discussion now."

This would imply that R1 was already there, or he is alluding to R1b being in the Baltic prior to the Corded Ware period, since a number of people are more "iffy" on the R1b = IE linkage. I have no idea, but I suspect Corded Ware + R1a1 link still holds with any new Baltic data, based on his previous conclusions, but also the pre-existing data which shows a R1a1 + CW link.

Frankly, I think E-V13 is far too young an expansion to really be "old European" so to speak. The I2-M423 founder typical in "South Slavs" is far too young. Yfull has that guy spreading around 2200 ybp, although his immediate ancestor may have lived in Belarus/Poland an awful lot earlier. I think R1b-L389 may have wintered in the Balkans or western Ukraine.

Jean M
09-13-2016, 04:19 PM
It could be due to the quote from a poster... This would imply...

Yes I know. That's where Richard came in. But let's not belabour the clue dropped under provocation. David is keeping his word. As we all must if we want to keep channels open to useful sources.

ADW_1981
09-13-2016, 04:22 PM
Yes I know. That's where Richard came in. But let's not belabour the clue dropped under provocation. David is keeping his word. As we all must if we want to keep channels open to useful sources.

Of course, I think we are free to speculate though... David can delete his comments if he has an issue with his own posts...

Jean M
09-13-2016, 04:30 PM
Of course, I think we are free to speculate though..

Since you tempt me, I'll go for R1a2a (YP4131)

ffoucart
09-13-2016, 04:34 PM
Yes I know. That's where Richard came in. But let's not belabour the clue dropped under provocation. David is keeping his word. As we all must if we want to keep channels open to useful sources.

Quite clear!

R.Rocca
09-16-2016, 01:41 AM
This abstract was overlooked somewhat, but is very relevant in that it took 3,500 modern Sardinian whole genomes and compared them to published ancient DNA samples....

Using whole-genome sequencing to shed insight on the complex prehistory of Sardinia
https://ep70.eventpilot.us/web/page.php?page=IntHtml&project=ASHG16&id=160122402

1. They confirmed what other studies found, that compared to mainland Europeans, Sardinians exhibit the greatest amount of shared drift with Neolithic farmers (no big deal)
2. They found that individuals from the geographically isolated province of Ogliastra have higher Neolithic farmer and Paleolithic hunter-gatherer ancestries. As far back as Zei et al (2003), haplogroup I-M26 was identified as having a significantly higher frequency in that part of the island.
3. The real news is that the individuals from the rest of the island show an infusion of the steppe pastoralist ancestry. Why is that important on this thread? That's because the rest of the island experienced a heavy influx of Bell Beaker, while Ogliastra experienced none.

I've previously speculated on this forum that in Sardinia, there is an inverse correlation between Bell Beaker and U152 on one hand and I-M26 on the other. If the data from this study is made public, I have no doubt that U152 will be highest in Bell Beaker areas and areas with elevated steppe pastoralist ancestry. There is no doubt that on the Italian peninsula, U152 has a definite Bell Beaker distribution.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-16-2016, 03:18 AM
David has not interpreted the results on his blog. Nor has he given them out in public or to me privately. The prediction above is my own.

Chinese whispers ;)

Chad Rohlfsen
09-16-2016, 04:12 AM
Too much emphasis is put on pottery and lithics here. Each show up at odd locations with no connections to others who practice each. Pressure-flaking shows up in numerous, unrelated regions across Eurasia and Africa. They don't come from a single group anymore than all people that make pottery have roots in the Far East. People are plenty capable of similar advances without contact.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-16-2016, 04:15 AM
Too much emphasis is put on pottery and lithics here. Each show up at odd locations with no connections to others who practice each. Pressure-flaking shows up in numerous, unrelated regions across Eurasia and Africa. They don't come from a single group anymore than all people that make pottery have roots in the Far East. People are plenty capable of similar advances without contact.

Yes but Jean is determined to have her thesis ; and she dismisses Kuzmin's warning/ (falsification) about the supposed trans-Siberian origins of east European Neolithic pottery

Jean M
09-16-2016, 06:35 PM
Too much emphasis is put on pottery and lithics here. Each show up at odd locations with no connections to others who practice each. Pressure-flaking shows up in numerous, unrelated regions across Eurasia and Africa. They don't come from a single group anymore than all people that make pottery have roots in the Far East. People are plenty capable of similar advances without contact.

They certainly are. That´s why we need to consider carefully the likelihood of independent invention vs spread by contact. In the case of pottery, for example, we need to compare style and technology, and consider the evidence (or lack of it) for a local early phase of experimentation and/or the possibity of contact. I think it highly unlikely that the earliest pottery in Africa and the Near East arose from the invention of pottery in the Far East. The slab technique in the Near East is different from the coil technique of the forager type of the Far East, the two types had different shapes and uses, and there is evidence of early experimentation in the Near East.

R.Rocca
09-17-2016, 12:41 PM
A study that vettor pointed out also has a conclusion that is very relevant to this topic, but I don't think has been discussed...

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Late_Antiquity

When comparing pre-Bell Beaker Basque country mtDNA with Central European Bell Beaker ancient DNA, the authors concluded that...


On the other hand, a study on the mitochondrial genetic diversity of European prehistoric groups, proposed a key role for Late Neolithic cultures (Bell Beaker Culture, BBC) in shaping modern Central European genetic diversity (Brandt et al., 2013). Therefore, the mtDNA haplogroup frequency of this BBC group was included in the present analysis (Fig. 2). As can be observed in the MDS plot, the BBC group had a minor distance with present-day population than with Neolithic populations of Central Europe, as it was noted by the authors in the mentioned study. On the other hand, they proposed a geographic expansion of the BBC culture from southwest Europe to Central Europe (Brandt et al., 2013). However, according to mtDNA haplogroups it cannot be seen any genetic relationship between the BBC group and the groups from the Iberian Peninsula corresponding to the same period, that are the Chalcolithic populations.

R.Rocca
09-22-2016, 08:37 PM
Not really about genetics, but a fascinating study that proposes the spread of many tales with Indo-Europeans...

Comparative phylogenetic analyses uncover the ancient roots of Indo-European folktales
http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/3/1/150645

Abstract

Ancient population expansions and dispersals often leave enduring signatures in the cultural traditions of their descendants, as well as in their genes and languages. The international folktale record has long been regarded as a rich context in which to explore these legacies. To date, investigations in this area have been complicated by a lack of historical data and the impact of more recent waves of diffusion. In this study, we introduce new methods for tackling these problems by applying comparative phylogenetic methods and autologistic modelling to analyse the relationships between folktales, population histories and geographical distances in Indo-European-speaking societies. We find strong correlations between the distributions of a number of folktales and phylogenetic, but not spatial, associations among populations that are consistent with vertical processes of cultural inheritance. Moreover, we show that these oral traditions probably originated long before the emergence of the literary record, and find evidence that one tale (‘The Smith and the Devil’) can be traced back to the Bronze Age. On a broader level, the kinds of stories told in ancestral societies can provide important insights into their culture, furnishing new perspectives on linguistic, genetic and archaeological reconstructions of human prehistory.

Related news coverage:

Fairy tale origins thousands of years old, researchers say
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35358487

Jean M
09-23-2016, 12:10 AM
a fascinating study that proposes the spread of many tales with Indo-Europeans...

Certainly is fascinating. I reported this study when it first came out, over on this thread: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6266-Age-of-Indo-European-folk-Tales-(da-Silva-and-Tehrani-2016)

razyn
09-23-2016, 12:39 AM
Certainly is fascinating. I reported this study when it first came out, over on this thread: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6266-Age-of-Indo-European-folk-Tales-(da-Silva-and-Tehrani-2016)
And I commented on it (on another thread, and in perhaps a rambling way); but I did want to note the fact that its folklorist authors were keeping up with some very current aDNA literature -- such as the Haak et al. and Allentoft et al. studies that came out while they were writing their paper. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6205-Die-Hard-2016-The-Iberian-LGM-Refuge-and-R1b&p=135050&viewfull=1#post135050

R.Rocca
09-23-2016, 02:23 AM
Certainly is fascinating. I reported this study when it first came out, over on this thread: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6266-Age-of-Indo-European-folk-Tales-(da-Silva-and-Tehrani-2016)

A very well told version of the "Blacksmith and the Devil" which the study has as Proto-Italo-Celtic: http://www.tellatale.eu/tales_blacksmith_devil.html

Heber
09-23-2016, 05:15 AM
A very well told version of the "Blacksmith and the Devil" which the study has as Proto-Italo-Celtic: http://www.tellatale.eu/tales_blacksmith_devil.html

Just in time for Halloween, the Irish (Celtic) story of "Jack of the Lantern", The Devil and the Blacksmith.

http://ofepicproportions.blogspot.ie/2009/10/wicked-john-and-devil.html

These stories could have spread with metallurgy:

11793

R.Rocca
09-23-2016, 12:47 PM
Just in time for Halloween, the Irish (Celtic) story of "Jack of the Lantern", The Devil and the Blacksmith.

http://ofepicproportions.blogspot.ie/2009/10/wicked-john-and-devil.html

These stories could have spread with metallurgy:

11793

Gerard, that's the same exact story I posted about and that the study found most likely to have spread with Proto-Italo-Celtic. Metallurgy spread into Western Europe way before the Indo-Europeans and L23. We already have pre-Bell Beaker Copper Age samples from Iberia and Italy and no L23. Then we also have Middle Eastern farmer DNA from the Levant, Anatolia and Iran, and again, no R1b....and these should have been the ancestors of Middle Eastern Copper Age men. And finally, we know that EHG autosomal ancestry made a big appearance in Central and then Western Europe by way of Yamnaya, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker, which all came after the spread of metallurgy. So, there is very little probability that the paths of L23 expansion that you superimposed on your map are correct.

razyn
09-23-2016, 01:22 PM
So, there is very little probability that the paths of L23 expansion that you superimposed on your map are correct.
Actually he superimposed it on Nissim Amzallag's map (in his 2009 paper, p. 509). Otherwise I agree, about the non-coincidence of those paths with L23, per se. I expect there was actually a relationship; just don't see much evidence in the genetics that this maps it. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=113270&viewfull=1#post113270

R.Rocca
10-01-2016, 11:49 AM
By anaylizing the X=chromosome on previously published samples, the authors of this paper were able to determine that there were 5-14 males for every family during the steppe migrations... http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=190032&viewfull=1#post190032

R.Rocca
10-01-2016, 12:48 PM
By anaylizing the X=chromosome on previously published samples, the authors of this paper were able to determine that there were 5-14 males for every family during the steppe migrations... http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=190032&viewfull=1#post190032

Other key observations:

- Of 16 admixed BA individuals, 12 have more SP ancestry on the autosomes than the X chromosome <<< another words more steppe ancestry from males

- Almost half of the male parents in each generation of BA individuals are new migrants from the SP population <<< another words, the males came in waves, not one single event

- Females from the steppe and early Neolithic European males, however, are estimated to have contributed negligibly to the BA population <<< thus the lack of steppe mtDNA and reduced farmer Y-DNA in Bronze Age Central Europeans.

rms2
10-01-2016, 01:28 PM
Other key observations:

- Of 16 admixed BA individuals, 12 have more SP ancestry on the autosomes than the X chromosome <<< another words more steppe ancestry from males

- Almost half of the male parents in each generation of BA individuals are new migrants from the SP population <<< another words, the males came in waves, not one single event

- Females from the steppe and early Neolithic European males, however, are estimated to have contributed negligibly to the BA population <<< thus the lack of steppe mtDNA and reduced farmer Y-DNA in Bronze Age Central Europeans.

That tends to support Gimbutas' idea of a number of kurgan waves rather than a single mass migration event.

R.Rocca
10-01-2016, 01:38 PM
That tends to support Gimbutas' idea of a number of kurgan waves rather than a single mass migration event.

Sure looks like it, although Gimbutas certainly overemphasized some waves that we know are no longer valid (e.g. Remedello, Baden). The remaining question is really the number and timing of such waves, as well as the Y-DNA type or types of R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 in each one. Throw in there as well some I2a to represent the lone Yamnaya sample and the contribution of it to Unetice, which plots with Corded Ware. Of course I2a may have back migrated after first beening a Cucuteni-Tripolye into the steppe lineage.

I know this paper doesn't contain Y-DNA, but it sure is chock-full-o new information!

rms2
10-01-2016, 01:43 PM
I think she looked on Remedello and Baden as kurganized or partially kurganized cultures, rather than of kurgan origin.

rms2
10-01-2016, 02:01 PM
I think she looked on Remedello and Baden as kurganized or partially kurganized cultures, rather than of kurgan origin.

I was just looking back at Gimbutas' book, The Civilization of the Goddess. From what I can see she did not regard either Baden or Remedello as kurgan waves themselves, but rather as indigenous peoples who received kurgan input. She doesn't really say much about Remedello in that book, but here are a few snippets of what she had to say about Baden:



The Baden complex, composed of indigenous and alien elements . . . [p. 372]

The pattern of settlement is clearly linked to the tradition of Old European populations. [p. 372]

The physical type of Baden was predominantly Mediterranean, as was to be expected from the Vinca substratum. A steppe type was also identified, however, and a certain facial flatness in some individuals seems to reflect eastern relations. [p. 375]

R.Rocca
10-01-2016, 03:08 PM
I was just looking back at Gimbutas' book, The Civilization of the Goddess. From what I can see she did not regard either Baden or Remedello as kurgan waves themselves, but rather as indigenous peoples who received kurgan input. She doesn't really say much about Remedello in that book, but here are a few snippets of what she had to say about Baden:

Given that both Remedello and Baden are quite a bit older than the Yamnaya incursion into the Danube, the "kurgan" influences could very well have come from Balkan Copper Age groups like Varna. Certainly Remedello and Baden (and Otzi) seem autosomally similar to other pre-steppe Europeans. Interestingly, a recent study also found that Remedello received some additional caucasus like ancestry without steppe ancestry, so that has to be accounted for. My guess is this is due to haplogroup J males entering the Balkans during the Copper Age.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-01-2016, 03:37 PM
Given that both Remedello and Baden are quite a bit older than the Yamnaya incursion into the Danube, the "kurgan" influences could very well have come from Balkan Copper Age groups like Varna. Certainly Remedello and Baden (and Otzi) seem autosomally similar to other pre-steppe Europeans. .


I was just looking back at Gimbutas' book, The Civilization of the Goddess. From what I can see she did not regard either Baden or Remedello as kurgan waves themselves, but rather as indigenous peoples who received kurgan input. She doesn't really say much about Remedello in that book, but here are a few snippets of what she had to say about Baden:

On latest reckoning, Baden is contemporary with Yamnaya, more or less. The (one) Baden sample we have thus far dates right in the peak of Yamnaya (2800 BC), & looks more or less like middle Neolithic central Europeans. After the collapse of Varna & related cultures, the Cernavoda culture appears in place, which is somewhat linked to Baden; whilst north of the lower Danube, in the Danube -Dniester steppe, the Usatavo culture is seen, a late variant of C-T.

Curiously, Yamnaya might have appeared in eastern Hungary before northern Bulgaria, perhaps allowing it to establish an early presence in Vucedol. It would be interesting to get an earlier (3600 BC) Vucedol and later (3000 BC) Vucedol sample, as we might see a shift from ANF-dominated ancestry to one with more EHG. As mentioned, Yamnaya in the Balkans co-exists with mid- to late Vucedol, as well as Baden & Ezero (Bulgaria). Baden appears to disintegrated /? transform somewhat prior to yamnaya ends, with a few different cultures like Mako, Vinkovcki, Csepel, etc emerging out subsequent to both.

R.Rocca
10-11-2016, 03:33 PM
Other key observations:

- Of 16 admixed BA individuals, 12 have more SP ancestry on the autosomes than the X chromosome <<< another words more steppe ancestry from males

- Almost half of the male parents in each generation of BA individuals are new migrants from the SP population <<< another words, the males came in waves, not one single event

- Females from the steppe and early Neolithic European males, however, are estimated to have contributed negligibly to the BA population <<< thus the lack of steppe mtDNA and reduced farmer Y-DNA in Bronze Age Central Europeans.

Just thinking out loud here... if 5-14 steppe males for every steppe female traveled into Central Europe, wouldn't it diminish somewhat the impact of plague as a primary vector for the decline of Middle Neolithic Y-DNA there? I mean, incoming plague would be in-discriminant to both males and females in the face of incoming steppe males, right?

Jean M
10-11-2016, 04:16 PM
Just thinking out loud here... if 5-14 steppe males for every steppe female traveled into Central Europe, wouldn't it diminish somewhat the impact of plague as a primary vector for the decline of Middle Neolithic Y-DNA there? I mean, incoming plague would be in-discriminant to both males and females in the face of incoming steppe males, right?

I don't go for the plague theory. It popped into someone's mind at one of the conferences that discussed the evidence of Copper Age population replacement. The latter came as a huge surprise to the many archaeologists who had accepted the idea that the population increase in the Neolithic was so great that no subsequent migration could match in size existing populations. So the big question for these bemused ones was "how could this possibly happen?"

One aim of Ancestral Journeys (2013) was to explain how it could happen, based on the increasing number of studies showing the pattern of boom and bust in Neolithic populations in Europe. If population size fell centuries before any steppe-origin person hoved into view, then obviously plague had nothing to do with it. I wouldn't rule out the plague pathogen having any effect though. It might have been one of the factors increasing the proportion of mtDNA H in Europe, because of the connection to recovery after sepsis (if that still holds good). We'll have to wait and see, I suppose.

razyn
10-11-2016, 04:21 PM
How about mumps? It's normally a childhood disease and not too serious. Then one is immune. But getting it as an adult (which would be the case for many males who caught it from incomers who had already survived it) tends to cause infertility. Or so we were told, about 60 years ago.

And there are other such contagions that might wipe out most of a generation; but the offspring of surviving children of the incoming males and local mothers would be comparatively hardy. I believe that happened quite regularly in the Americas. So, many of us have tales of descent from an Indian "princess," but few retain stories about their male Native American ancestors, apart from whatever chieftain was the said princess's daddy. European female immigrants faced no shortage of marriage prospects.

bix
10-11-2016, 04:57 PM
Is anyone familiar with this article?

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/35/9751

European Neolithic societies showed early warning signals of population collapse

Sean S. Downeya,1, W. Randall Haas, Jr.a, and Stephen J. Shennanb

Jean M
10-11-2016, 05:11 PM
Is anyone familiar with this article?

Thank you! Hadn't seen that one, though I'm familiar with other papers on the Neolithic collapse from Shennan et al. I will put it in the Vault shortly.

bix
10-11-2016, 05:23 PM
Thank you! Hadn't seen that one, though I'm familiar with other papers on the Neolithic collapse from Shennan et al. I will put it in the Vault shortly.

You are most welcome.

After reading it, it made me wonder if we could recognize these EWS pasterns in our own society now, anymore than they could then.

vettor
10-11-2016, 05:47 PM
I don't go for the plague theory. It popped into someone's mind at one of the conferences that discussed the evidence of Copper Age population replacement. The latter came as a huge surprise to the many archaeologists who had accepted the idea that the population increase in the Neolithic was so great that no subsequent migration could match in size existing populations. So the big question for these bemused ones was "how could this possibly happen?"

One aim of Ancestral Journeys (2013) was to explain how it could happen, based on the increasing number of studies showing the pattern of boom and bust in Neolithic populations in Europe. If population size fell centuries before any steppe-origin person hoved into view, then obviously plague had nothing to do with it. I wouldn't rule out the plague pathogen having any effect though. It might have been one of the factors increasing the proportion of mtDNA H in Europe, because of the connection to recovery after sepsis (if that still holds good). We'll have to wait and see, I suppose.

somewhat true, but brotherton paper on neolithic H mtdna in central-europe has shown that some H mtdna markers did die out and become extinct while others like H1 from the same early neolithic period is still with us today

Heber
10-11-2016, 11:07 PM
7 Bizarre Ancient Cultures That History Forgot

Long-Lost Cultures

The ancient Egyptians had their pyramids, the Greeks, their sculptures and temples. And everybody knows about the Maya and their famous calendar.
But other ancient peoples get short shrift in world history. Here are a handful of long-lost cultures that don't get the name recognition they deserve.

The Bell-Beaker Culture

You know a culture is obscure when archaeologists name it based on its artifacts alone. The Bell-Beaker culture made pottery vessels shaped like upside-down bells. The makers of these distinctive drinking cups lived across Europe between about 2800 B.C. and 1800 B.C. They also left behind copper artifacts and graves, including a cemetery of 154 graves located in the modern-day Czech Republic.

The Bell-Beakers were also responsible for some of the construction at Stonehenge, researchers have found: These people likely arranged the site's small bluestones, which originated in Wales.

http://www.livescience.com/55430-bizarre-ancient-cultures.html

Interesting that Bell Beakers make it into this list.
I visited Stonehenge, Amsbury, Boscombe and Durrington Walls last week and understand what attracted people to these mystical sites.

Tomenable
10-18-2016, 04:57 PM
Abstract from a soon-to-be-published paper on Balkan farmers by Mathieson:

"The area of southeastern Europe known as the Balkans has always been
a crossroads between Europe and Asia: a conduit for people, culture and
language. Beginning around 6,500 BCE, the Balkans was the first place in
Europe to become transformed by farming, brought by a new wave of migrants
from Anatolia. From this staging point, farming and people spread to all corners
of Europe. However, the dynamics of the interaction between farmers and
indigenous European hunter-gatherers in the first place that they encountered
each other remains poorly understood because of the near complete absence
of genetic data from prehistoric specimens from this region. We generated
new genome-wide ancient DNA data from 65 farmers from the Balkans
and adjacent regions dating as far back as 6,400 BCE. We document how
the dynamics of admixture between the regions first farmers and its indigenous
hunter-gatherers was complex, with evidence of local admixture from
hunter-gatherers related to those from Scandinavia and Eastern Europe."

So maybe my old idea (I've already given up on it) that the original homeland of R1b-M269/L23 was in the Balkans, will turn out to be true - if they had admixture from both WHG and EHG.

In such case it is possible that they also had some R1.

Arch
10-27-2016, 05:05 AM
Me too. I think she nailed it on the head about them being vagabonds and rebel horse riders. Kind of like the Sons of Anarchy of the Bronze Age. I wonder how she knew they were vagabonds? Time travel?

Heber
10-29-2016, 09:31 PM
Surely they have full genomes from these samples. Anyone in Berlin?

25.11.2016 Berlin.
FEMALE EXOGAMY AND PATRILOCALITY AT THE TRANSITION FROM FINAL NEOLITHIC TO THE EARLY BRONZE AGE IN SOUTHERN GERMANY

Corina Knipper, Curt-Engelhorn-Zentrum Archäometrie gGmbH, Mannheim
Prof. Dr. Johannes Krause, Max-Planck-Institut für Menschheitsgeschichte, Jena
Ken Massy, Institut für Vor- und Frühgeschichtliche Archäologie, Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München
Stephanie Metz, Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften
Alissa Mittnik, Fachbereich Geowissenschaften, Paläobiologie, Eberhard-Karls-Universität Tübingen
Philipp Stockhammer, Institut für Vor- und Frühgeschichtliche Archäologie, Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München
Fabian Wittenborn, Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften

The transition from the late Neolithic to the Early Bronze Age in Central Europe is a time period for which human mobility has been vividly debated in archaeological research. This presentation contributes to these considerations using an interdisciplinary approach that integrates ancient mitochondrial DNA analysis, the determination of stable isotope ratios of strontium and oxygen in tooth enamel, and archaeological analysis of radiocarbon dated skeletal remains. They represent 83 human individuals from 6 sites of the Bell Beaker Complex and the early Bronze Age in the Lech Valley in Southern Bavaria, Germany. Mitochondrial DNA analysis documented a diversification of haplogroups over time. Strontium and oxygen isotope ratios disclosed more than half of the females to be non-local, while there were only single occurrences among the male and subadult individuals. This striking pattern of patrilocality and female exogamy prevailed between about 2500 and 1700 BC. It was independent of individual sites and their archaeological assignments to the Bell Beaker Complex or the Early Bronze Age. While the males ensured settlement continuity in a spatially limited area, the results indicate that the females were driving forces for regional and supra-regional communication and exchange at the dawn of the European Metal Ages.

http://www.topoi.org/event/36767/

Romilius
10-29-2016, 09:49 PM
Surely they have full genomes from these samples. Anyone in Berlin?

25.11.2016 Berlin.
FEMALE EXOGAMY AND PATRILOCALITY AT THE TRANSITION FROM FINAL NEOLITHIC TO THE EARLY BRONZE AGE IN SOUTHERN GERMANY

Corina Knipper, Curt-Engelhorn-Zentrum Archäometrie gGmbH, Mannheim
Prof. Dr. Johannes Krause, Max-Planck-Institut für Menschheitsgeschichte, Jena
Ken Massy, Institut für Vor- und Frühgeschichtliche Archäologie, Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München
Stephanie Metz, Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften
Alissa Mittnik, Fachbereich Geowissenschaften, Paläobiologie, Eberhard-Karls-Universität Tübingen
Philipp Stockhammer, Institut für Vor- und Frühgeschichtliche Archäologie, Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München
Fabian Wittenborn, Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften

The transition from the late Neolithic to the Early Bronze Age in Central Europe is a time period for which human mobility has been vividly debated in archaeological research. This presentation contributes to these considerations using an interdisciplinary approach that integrates ancient mitochondrial DNA analysis, the determination of stable isotope ratios of strontium and oxygen in tooth enamel, and archaeological analysis of radiocarbon dated skeletal remains. They represent 83 human individuals from 6 sites of the Bell Beaker Complex and the early Bronze Age in the Lech Valley in Southern Bavaria, Germany. Mitochondrial DNA analysis documented a diversification of haplogroups over time. Strontium and oxygen isotope ratios disclosed more than half of the females to be non-local, while there were only single occurrences among the male and subadult individuals. This striking pattern of patrilocality and female exogamy prevailed between about 2500 and 1700 BC. It was independent of individual sites and their archaeological assignments to the Bell Beaker Complex or the Early Bronze Age. While the males ensured settlement continuity in a spatially limited area, the results indicate that the females were driving forces for regional and supra-regional communication and exchange at the dawn of the European Metal Ages.

http://www.topoi.org/event/36767/

Mmmmh... it doesn't mention Y-DNA analysis... didn't they analyze also Y-DNA haplogroups? If so, how can they state that there was patrilocality without Y-DNA?

Heber
10-29-2016, 10:00 PM
Mmmmh... it doesn't mention Y-DNA analysis... didn't they analyze also Y-DNA haplogroups? If so, how can they state that there was patrilocality without Y-DNA?

Reminds me of this paper on female mobility.

Tracing the dynamic life story of a Bronze Age Female

http://www.nature.com/articles/srep10431

rms2
10-29-2016, 10:26 PM
Abstract from a soon-to-be-published paper on Balkan farmers by Mathieson:

"The area of southeastern Europe known as the Balkans has always been
a crossroads between Europe and Asia: a conduit for people, culture and
language. Beginning around 6,500 BCE, the Balkans was the first place in
Europe to become transformed by farming, brought by a new wave of migrants
from Anatolia. From this staging point, farming and people spread to all corners
of Europe. However, the dynamics of the interaction between farmers and
indigenous European hunter-gatherers in the first place that they encountered
each other remains poorly understood because of the near complete absence
of genetic data from prehistoric specimens from this region. We generated
new genome-wide ancient DNA data from 65 farmers from the Balkans
and adjacent regions dating as far back as 6,400 BCE. We document how
the dynamics of admixture between the regions first farmers and its indigenous
hunter-gatherers was complex, with evidence of local admixture from
hunter-gatherers related to those from Scandinavia and Eastern Europe."

So maybe my old idea (I've already given up on it) that the original homeland of R1b-M269/L23 was in the Balkans, will turn out to be true - if they had admixture from both WHG and EHG.

In such case it is possible that they also had some R1.

Isn't the word out that Lazaridis says that those Balkan farmers were all G2a?

No big surprise there.

ArmandoR1b
10-29-2016, 11:25 PM
Isn't the word out that Lazaridis says that those Balkan farmers were all G2a?

No big surprise there.

I think that Davidski is the only one that had a response from a reliable source on that.

rms2
10-29-2016, 11:51 PM
I think that Davidski is the only one that had a response from a reliable source on that.

I think it was Razib Khan who reported on what Lazaridis said, but he got it directly from Lazaridis.

ArmandoR1b
10-30-2016, 12:09 AM
I think it was Razib Khan who reported on what Lazaridis said, but he got it directly from Lazaridis.

You're right. Razib posted G2a (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/10/ashg-2016-open-thread.html?showComment=1477173713652#c25001507524 96849419) as the first response to a list of questions at Eurogenes with the first one question being about the Y-DNA found in the study. Davidski was the one that had asked the question (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/10/ashg-2016-open-thread.html?showComment=1476821342705#c47850212404 61512253).

vettor
10-30-2016, 12:30 AM
IMO , I think the breakup of haplogroups will be similar in % as what we have already found


Haplogroups C1a - 2 - 3%
E1b1b -1 - 1.5%
F - 4 - 6%
G2a - 42 - 61%
H2 - 2 - 3%
I - 2 - 3%
I1 -1 - 1.5%
I2a - 11 - 16%
J2 - 1 - 1.5%
R1a - 0
R1b - 0
T1a - 2 - 3%

ArmandoR1b
10-30-2016, 02:28 PM
IMO , I think the breakup of haplogroups will be similar in % as what we have already found


Haplogroups C1a - 2 - 3%
E1b1b -1 - 1.5%
F - 4 - 6%
G2a - 42 - 61%
H2 - 2 - 3%
I - 2 - 3%
I1 -1 - 1.5%
I2a - 11 - 16%
J2 - 1 - 1.5%
R1a - 0
R1b - 0
T1a - 2 - 3%

If you look at the links I provided you will see that the question that Davidski asked was "Also, what types of Y-HGs did they have?" and Razib only mentioned G2a. That means none of the others were found.

Why would you think that there would be others if Razib was at the conference and he asked Ian Mathieson directly which HGs were found in the Balkan farmers and only one HG was mentioned?

GoldenHind
10-30-2016, 07:18 PM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know of any other topic on this forum which has generated more pages than this one?

Il Papà
10-30-2016, 07:47 PM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know of any other topic on this forum which has generated more pages than this one?

Yes, it's not complicated to find it : http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2573-New-DNA-Papers-General-Discussion-Thread
At the time I post the count is:


Views: 283,965

rms2
10-30-2016, 07:53 PM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know of any other topic on this forum which has generated more pages than this one?

And Piquerobi started this thread almost two years ago! November 19th will be its two year anniversary. We should all drink a toast to Piquerobi and this thread that day. :beerchug:

jdean
10-30-2016, 08:03 PM
Yes, it's not complicated to find it : http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2573-New-DNA-Papers-General-Discussion-Thread
At the time I post the count is:


Views: 283,965


But only 1786 posts and this is post 2720 in this thread : )

vettor
10-30-2016, 08:43 PM
If you look at the links I provided you will see that the question that Davidski asked was "Also, what types of Y-HGs did they have?" and Razib only mentioned G2a. That means none of the others were found.

Why would you think that there would be others if Razib was at the conference and he asked Ian Mathieson directly which HGs were found in the Balkan farmers and only one HG was mentioned?

Because it makes no sense that only G2a is found when the others noted came at roughly the same time...........at least one or two of the others would have to be included

ArmandoR1b
10-31-2016, 04:40 AM
Because it makes no sense that only G2a is found when the others noted came at roughly the same time...........at least one or two of the others would have to be included
The geneticist that actually did the testing provided the info to Razib. It doesn't matter what makes sense to you.

GoldenHind
10-31-2016, 06:01 PM
Yes, it's not complicated to find it : http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2573-New-DNA-Papers-General-Discussion-Thread
At the time I post the count is:


Views: 283,965


Thanks, very interesting. However my question was about pages, and at present this thread has almost 100 pages (273) more than the one you cite (179).

rms2
11-01-2016, 11:35 AM
It's liable to get a lot longer, if that big, much anticipated Bell Beaker paper is released at some point during our lifetimes.

jdean
11-01-2016, 07:48 PM
It's liable to get a lot longer, if that big, much anticipated Bell Beaker paper is released at some point during our lifetimes.

End of the year apparent, don't know if they specified which year though : )))

rozenfeld
11-01-2016, 10:07 PM
Do you have any ideas/hints/guesses, when this paper will be published?

Heber
11-02-2016, 04:45 PM
4,000-Year-Old Grave in Wales Yields Intact Beaker

GWYNEDD, WALES—The Daily Post reports that a 4,000-year-old cemetery has been unearthed by contract archaeologists at the Cefn Graianog Quarry. They found two graves lined with stone slabs, the larger of which contained two pots known as beakers. The smaller of the two pots was found damaged and had to be carefully reconstructed, explained Iwan Parry of Brython Archaeology, while the larger pot was found intact. The site has also yielded Bronze Age pits containing charcoal and pottery.

http://www.archaeology.org/news/4983-161101-wales-intact-pottery

johen
11-02-2016, 05:00 PM
4,000-Year-Old Grave in Wales Yields Intact Beaker

GWYNEDD, WALES—The Daily Post reports that a 4,000-year-old cemetery has been unearthed by contract archaeologists at the Cefn Graianog Quarry. They found two graves lined with stone slabs, the larger of which contained two pots known as beakers. The smaller of the two pots was found damaged and had to be carefully reconstructed, explained Iwan Parry of Brython Archaeology, while the larger pot was found intact. The site has also yielded Bronze Age pits containing charcoal and pottery.

http://www.archaeology.org/news/4983-161101-wales-intact-pottery

The curious thing is the bell beaker grave looks similar to american indian's:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-d2shuHhn7gc/U5dtR0IHMWI/AAAAAAAAAZg/zstQMZ_1e3M/s1600/Rothenschirmbach+woman.JPG

Mississippian American Indian:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Mississippian_culture_stone_box_burial_flexed_HRoe _2011.jpg

rms2
11-03-2016, 12:02 PM
I must confess that I am not all that familiar with Amerindian burial habits, but I think they varied quite a bit, didn't they? Some of the tribes placed their dead on elevated platforms for excarnation; others buried them in large collective mounds, much like the Neolithic barrows of Europe. I don't recall seeing any that reminded me of Bell Beaker burials, but that doesn't mean there aren't any such Amerindian burials.

rms2
11-03-2016, 12:09 PM
This Bell Beaker man(?) looks like he has a message for the archaeologists who disturbed his rest:

12422

razyn
11-03-2016, 01:38 PM
This Bell Beaker man(?) looks like he has a message for the archaeologists who disturbed his rest:

I agree with your analysis of the gesture, and the point is well taken -- but actually that's the Native American burial, per johen's unobtrusive caption.

johen
11-03-2016, 03:50 PM
I must confess that I am not all that familiar with Amerindian burial habits, but I think they varied quite a bit, didn't they? Some of the tribes placed their dead on elevated platforms for excarnation; others buried them in large collective mounds, much like the Neolithic barrows of Europe. I don't recall seeing any that reminded me of Bell Beaker burials, but that doesn't mean there aren't any such Amerindian burials.

How about this? not bell beaker

yamna R1b
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Yamna_culture_tomb.jpg

cherokee (who have 48% R1b?)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Dpi52Th2Ha8/UVnj7iimqBI/AAAAAAAALHI/wdTkQ6us6BE/s1600/Cherokee-burial-desecrated.jpg

Kale
11-03-2016, 04:47 PM
Digging a hole and tossing the dead in it? What a novel idea! Nobody could think of that on their own.

Megalophias
11-03-2016, 04:57 PM
Digging a hole and tossing the dead in it? What a novel idea! Nobody could think of that on their own.

Not just a hole; also with the knees bent. The parallels are overwhelming. I predict that there was some kind of marker on top as well.

Dewsloth
11-03-2016, 05:02 PM
Not just a hole; also with the knees bent. The parallels are overwhelming. I predict that there was some kind of marker on top as well.

Yammy1: I dug a hole for Grandpa.

Yammy2: But he's taller than that, lying down.

Yammy1: Well, just bend his legs. I'm tired of digging.

Observer
11-03-2016, 11:50 PM
cherokee (who have 48% R1b?)

What type of R1b do cherokees carry? what is current consensus in genetics regrading R1b presence in Americas? Most studies seem to suggest it came with Europeans.

Jean M
11-04-2016, 12:07 AM
what is current consensus in genetics regrading R1b presence in Americas? Most studies seem to suggest it came with Europeans.

Of course it did. If R1 of any kind had arrived in the Americas with the people who became Native Americans, then by now (if it survived) it would have developed distinctly Native American subclades, completely different from those in Europe. There is no sign of such subclades, to the best of my knowledge.

With Q and R being brothers, so to speak, there is no particular reason why R should not have been in the party which crossed the Bering land bridge. Who knows what might turn up in Native American aDNA? But so far R has not turned up in the earliest Native American aDNA. Chance alone might have determined that R went west instead.

R.Rocca
11-04-2016, 12:24 AM
cherokee (who have 48% R1b?)

Modern North American Indians have R1b subclades found in Britain and South American Indians have R1b subclades found in Spain. It's obvious why... their male ancestors were European colonizers. This topic has been beat to death elsewhere without a single shred of poof that there was ever any R1b in the Americas before 1492, so let's please get back on topic.

rms2
11-04-2016, 12:48 AM
I agree with your analysis of the gesture, and the point is well taken -- but actually that's the Native American burial, per johen's unobtrusive caption.

Ah. You're right. I missed the little caption, and that did the trick! Quod erat demonstrandum. :biggrin1:

johen
11-04-2016, 01:41 AM
Modern North American Indians have R1b subclades found in Britain and South American Indians have R1b subclades found in Spain. It's obvious why... their male ancestors were European colonizers. This topic has been beat to death elsewhere without a single shred of poof that there was ever any R1b in the Americas before 1492, so let's please get back on topic.
I am 99% sure your saying is correct.
How did you think regarding the fact that MA-1 is closer to Native Americans than any of the 15 tested European populations? looks like Algonquian(5), Ojibwe(5), and Chipewyan (15) R1b are not from European's.


In addition, we exclude post-Columbian European admixture (after 1492 ad) as an explanation for the genetic affinity between MA-1 and Native Americans for three reasons. First, for SNP array-based analyses, we take recent European admixture into account by using a data set masked for inferred admixed genomic regions19. Second, allele frequency-based D-statistic tests20 show that all 48 tested modern-day populations with First American ancestry19 are equally related to MA-1 within the resolution of our data (Supplementary Information, section 14.4), which would not be expected if the signal was driven by recent European admixture. Third, MA-1 is closer to Native Americans than any of the 15 tested European populations (Supplementary Information, section 14.8).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4105016/

Supplementary Information, section 14.4
https://s31.postimg.org/q4o0qnvkb/Capture.png

52 American Indian population was including in Algonquian(5), Ojibwe(5), and Chipewyan (15)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3615710/


It is now the most common haplogroup after the various Q-M242, especially in North America, highest worldwide R1 rates among Great Lakes/Algonquian-speakers,[3] in Ojibwe people at 79%, Chipewyan 62%, Seminole 50%, Cherokee 47%, Dogrib 40% and Papago 38%. 97% of R1 had the M269 SNP (Single Nucleotide Polymorphism)
wiki

R.Rocca
11-04-2016, 02:30 AM
I am 99% sure your saying is correct.


Like I said, this thread is about Gimbutas' theories about Indo-European expansions from the steppe and Bell Beaker which is only found in Europe and Morocco. It has nothing to do with the Americas.

Romilius
11-04-2016, 07:13 PM
Like I said, this thread is about Gimbutas' theories about Indo-European expansions from the steppe and Bell Beaker which is only found in Europe and Morocco. It has nothing to do with the Americas.

Those beakers from Morocco must be very interesting... do you know about researches on the aDNA of the human remains in those burials?

Heber
11-04-2016, 10:37 PM
Turek, J. 2012: Chapter 8 - Origin of the Bell Beaker phenomenon. The Moroccan connection, In: Fokkens, H. & F. Nicolis (eds) 2012: Background to Beakers. Inquiries into regional cultural backgrounds of the Bell Beaker complex. Leiden: Sidestone Press

https://www.academia.edu/1988928/Turek_J._2012_Chapter_8_-_Origin_of_the_Bell_Beaker_phenomenon._The_Morocca n_connection_In_Fokkens_H._and_F._Nicolis_eds_2012 _Background_to_Beakers._Inquiries_into_regional_cu ltural_backgrounds_of_the_Bell_Beaker_complex._Lei den_Sidestone_Press

Also of interest are the Ivory Figurines in a Bell Beaker context.

http://perdresearch.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/0011-research-in-perdigoes-ivory.html

rms2
11-06-2016, 09:35 PM
I could be wrong, but I still think Iberia is throwing people off the Bell Beaker trail. Gimbutas was right. Bell Beaker is Yamnaya 2.0.

Romilius
11-06-2016, 10:27 PM
I could be wrong, but I still think Iberia is throwing people off the Bell Beaker trail. Gimbutas was right. Bell Beaker is Yamnaya 2.0.

Well, we will see...

The thing I was thinking about is what kind of burial those moroccan beakers had: cist? A sort of kurgan-like burial? Collective? I'm sure that's an important feature.

rms2
11-06-2016, 10:40 PM
Well, we will see...

The thing I was thinking about is what kind of burial those moroccan beakers had: cist? A sort of kurgan-like burial? Collective? I'm sure that's an important feature.

You should read this article (http://www.jna.uni-kiel.de/index.php/jna/article/view/112/113), if you haven't already.

alan
11-07-2016, 01:33 AM
One thing which I think tends to be overlooked in these discussions is how alien the beaker tradition of crouched articulated burial is in areas where collective burial previously was the norm. It was less alien where the basic were already spread by CW people but west of the Rhine, the west Med, Atlantic Iberia and the British Isles it is essentially an alien form. What is not well dated or certainly well published is what is the earliest date of that distinct pan-beaker burial form in Iberia? That is not the same thing as asking what age beaker pottery is. IMO the spread of new burial beliefs is far more important than a pot type.

Romilius
11-07-2016, 08:28 PM
One thing which I think tends to be overlooked in these discussions is how alien the beaker tradition of crouched articulated burial is in areas where collective burial previously was the norm. It was less alien where the basic were already spread by CW people but west of the Rhine, the west Med, Atlantic Iberia and the British Isles it is essentially an alien form. What is not well dated or certainly well published is what is the earliest date of that distinct pan-beaker burial form in Iberia? That is not the same thing as asking what age beaker pottery is. IMO the spread of new burial beliefs is far more important than a pot type.

I tend to think the same: pots just follow the fashion or the use... burial are the mirror of a cosmological view.

alan
11-09-2016, 07:13 PM
One thing which I think tends to be overlooked in these discussions is how alien the beaker tradition of crouched articulated burial is in areas where collective burial previously was the norm. It was less alien where the basic were already spread by CW people but west of the Rhine, the west Med, Atlantic Iberia and the British Isles it is essentially an alien form. What is not well dated or certainly well published is what is the earliest date of that distinct pan-beaker burial form in Iberia? That is not the same thing as asking what age beaker pottery is. IMO the spread of new burial beliefs is far more important than a pot type.

The dating of these crouched single burial of classic beaker type in the west will IMO the likely signal of migration there from central Europe. That is what needs dated accurately, not pottery. As I have said many many times, pottery is overwhelmingly a female craft in these types of societies and is therefore a very poor tacker for yDNA lineages indeed. My belief is this is the real tracker of migration of central European male lineages west, not the pots.

As it stands, the most unbiased way of interpreting beaker pot is that it originated (whether or not it had exotic models) in Iberia c. 2800BC, essentially remained locked up in that peninsula for 2-300 years before spreading west and north around 2600-2500BC. That is however not at all the story of the spread of individual burials. That is much more clearly a spread from east to west.

There is simply no precursor for that tradition in the west. Its completely alien where collective burial of bone or token handfuls of cremated bones was the norm as was the case in Europe on the west side of the old iron curtain until after 3000BC.

lgmayka
11-18-2016, 04:39 AM
If R1 of any kind had arrived in the Americas with the people who became Native Americans, then by now (if it survived) it would have developed distinctly Native American subclades, completely different from those in Europe. There is no sign of such subclades, to the best of my knowledge.
Did we ever get a satisfactory explanation of the Puerto Rican R-L389 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-L389/)* example? According to YFull, almost 17,000 years ago that lineage separated from R-P297 (from which came R-M269).