Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b [Archive] - Page 20

rms2

11-08-2017, 04:05 PM

I have experienced some disappointment, but it has come mostly from what has been left undone.

My most recent disappointment came from the failure of the tests run on the sample from the Amesbury Archer. That was a big letdown, and it doesn't look like they're going to be able to try again anytime soon.

It also bugs me that there really has been no effort to trace the steppe people who headed west and had such a huge impact on central and western Europe. We get Bell Beaker, and that's great, but we need the missing link that connects them to the steppe.

Romilius

11-08-2017, 08:31 PM

Celt_??

11-08-2017, 09:17 PM

Look at this link by Genetiker: he tested the R1b samples from Lipson's paper... well... that's amazing!

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/11/08/y-snp-calls-from-neolithic-europe/

But what does this annotation mean: (pre-?)R1b1a2-V88 ? That it is before R-V88 which was found in Catalonia, Spain, ~ 6200 ybp (Haak et al. 2015) presumably from the the Maghreb ?

Romilius

11-08-2017, 09:47 PM

But what does this annotation mean: (pre-?)R1b1a2-V88 ? That it is before R-V88 which was found in Catalonia, Spain, ~ 6200 ybp (Haak et al. 2015) presumably from the the Maghreb ?

You may write him. Probably, those samples could be R-V88 or pre-V88.

jdean

11-08-2017, 10:56 PM

But what does this annotation mean: (pre-?)R1b1a2-V88 ? That it is before R-V88 which was found in Catalonia, Spain, ~ 6200 ybp (Haak et al. 2015) presumably from the the Maghreb ?

They're a couple of SNPs short of a picnic : )

Celt_??

11-09-2017, 01:05 AM

They're a couple of SNPs short of a picnic : )

Thank you jdean, that was the answer to perhaps my poorly worded question. Not exactly a Newbie; but obviously not up to speed with terminology yet. Thanks

rms2

11-09-2017, 01:21 AM

jdean

11-09-2017, 08:55 AM

Looks like V88 and its relatives were more common in Neolithic Europe than they are in Europe now. Weird.

Does seem to suggest the V88 branch was a low frequency group that came in with the early farmers which I think was a theory proposed by Jean Manco and Alan before aDNA

Romilius

11-09-2017, 11:40 AM

Does seem to suggest the V88 branch was a low frequency group that came in with the early farmers which I think was a theory proposed by Jean Manco and Alan before aDNA

I think the same... also... given the fact R-V88 was in the Balkans in the Mesolithic.

Radboud

11-09-2017, 03:11 PM

Jean M

11-09-2017, 03:24 PM

Looks like V88 and its relatives were more common in Neolithic Europe than they are in Europe now. Weird.

Not weird at all. G2a is a whole lot less common now in Europe than it was in the Early Neolithic. We have had a population turnover since then.

ADW_1981

11-09-2017, 03:54 PM

The first one is derived for FGC21063, which is downstream of V88 and Y7777. For the last three, it looks like they are derived for V88 but not for some of its equivalents. So, they are either V88 or on a related, pre-V88 line.

At any rate, none of them is on the L389 line, so they aren't P297 or M269.

Looks like V88 and its relatives were more common in Neolithic Europe than they are in Europe now. Weird.

Based on the paucity of the branches of G2a that are rare, especially in northern Europe today where they have turned up in the ancient record, I am not terribly surprised. I have to dig up the exact subclades, but they are not the common G2a-P303. It looks like not many Neolithic males in northern Europe survived. Of course saying a blanketed "Neolithic" statement is far too broad, and it's possible that some phases of the neolithic in northern Europe were able to carry on their male legacy, that is yet to be determined. I had previously predicted that the common G2-P303 that is found throughout Europe is post-Neolithic, possibly spread with Maykop interaction? It also turned up in Minoan Greece if I'm not mistaken. I'd suspect the men of these cultures are more likely to be detectable today, than the ones in central Europe who appear to have met a bad end, if I'm not mistaken from the archaeology.

jeanL

11-09-2017, 04:09 PM

Given the current status of the data, it seems that R1b-V88 and related lines have been in the Balkans are surrounding areas since at least 12,000 ybp. Now it seems that those lines were picked up and carried away into Western Europe alongside some I2a2 lines and C1a2 lines. So Hunter Gatherer lines made it into Western Europe via the farmers vector, it seems also, that G2a lines were not that big to begin with in places like Iberia, where I2 lines dominate. Villabruna is R1b-L274, so he is ancestral to both R1b-V88 and R1b-L389, though it is said to have had 2 derived L389 SNPs according to Genetiker and Open genomes.

The first full fledge R1b-P297 line to record is in Latvian HG dated back to 9500 ybp. Also, R1b-P297 lines are not found in contemporary Balkan samples in the Iron Gates HG, where it seems that R1b-V88 lines dominate. I think one possible explanation is that the lines leading to R1b-P297 were too far North, and that they escaped any contact with Neolithic Europeans. Also note that Ukraine Neolithic is full of R1b1a lines ancestral to R1b-P297, so it seems some of the Balkans HG migrated to Ukraine during the Neolithic, probably before any admixture took place with farmers, this also explains the increase of WHG seem in Ukraine Neolithic relative to Ukraine HG.

Romilius

11-09-2017, 04:23 PM

jeanL

11-09-2017, 04:34 PM

As I said before - and I won't cease to say it - I'd like to see the same treatment on those Ukrainian R1b1a lines. As per Genetiker, Baltic R1b were near to M73 line, Balkanic R1b were V88, Neolithic German R1b were near to V88 line... so where are those M269 lines? I think - and I know I could be wrong - that those Ukrainian R1b1 could amaze us.

Note that Genetiker has only analyzed some 3 lines of the Latvians HG, none of which is the oldest R1b-P297 which is dated to 9500 ybp, he only analyzed the three that were officially published in a journal, all the other ones are in the Mathieson paper about the genomic history of southeastern Europe, which includes the Ukraine Neolithic lines. Also note that all but 1 Ukraine R1b1a, are R1b1a(xR1b1a1a), aka R1b1a(xP297). Similarly, all but one Latvian HG are R1b1a1a(xR1b1a1a2), which is R1b-P297(xM269).

R.Rocca

11-09-2017, 06:18 PM

For Blatterhole sample I1593, Genetiker's Pre-V88 calls contradict this statement from the Liston paper:

"R1b1a1a2 showed both derived and ancestral alleles of characteristic SNPs. Thus, he could only be assigned to haplogroup R1b1a."

Perhaps Liston meant to write R1b1a2 instead of R1b1a1a2?

rms2

11-09-2017, 07:08 PM

Not weird at all. G2a is a whole lot less common now in Europe than it was in the Early Neolithic. We have had a population turnover since then.

My sentence was probably unclear. What I found weird is not that V88 is less common in Europe now than it was then, but that it's V88 that is showing up.

Gravetto-Danubian

11-09-2017, 09:16 PM

R.Rocca

11-10-2017, 01:37 AM

So where are we now ?

19671

V88 was spreading with Neolithic farmers, as acculturated foragers from Balkans
Are Ukraine R1b along the line of V88 ?
This leaves us with P297 developing in Northeast /east Europe since Mesolithic.

Phylogenetically, P 297 is closer to the kalavan cave R1b, with V88 forming an outgroup.

This sample is V88 as per Mathieson's Balkan behemoth:

Sample: I1734
Date: 7446-7058 calBCE
Y-DNA: R1b1a2 (V88 branch as per ISOGG)
Site: Vasil'evka, Ukraine

parasar

11-10-2017, 03:37 AM

This sample is V88 as per Mathieson's Balkan behemoth:

Sample: I1734
Date: 7446-7058 calBCE
Y-DNA: R1b1a2 (V88 branch as per ISOGG)
Site: Vasil'evka, Ukraine

Any further resolution on the Blatterhohle R1bs?

Jean M

11-10-2017, 10:59 AM

So where are we now ?

19671

V88 was spreading with Neolithic farmers, as acculturated foragers from Balkans

I doubt that the acculturation happened in the Balkans, or exclusively there. The spread into Europe appears relatively minor, with V88 being more linked to E-M81 in the Levant and its spread into Africa. I assume that it arrived in the Neolithic heartlands of Western Asia with the pressure blade making technology (which took several different routes from Siberia into Europe and Western Asia). Extract from AJ:

The Chadic languages of Africa, spoken around Lake Chad, are related to the Berber group. Yet there is a marked correlation between Chadic and a completely different haplogroup, R1b1c [now R1b1a2] (V88). How could that come about? R1b1c appears in the Levant today. Picture an R1b1c (V88) man deciding to marry into a distant village. He would need to learn the language of the villagers, which in our hypothetical case was Proto-Afro-Asiatic. His descendants might make quite a tribe of their own within a few generations, but closely allied to other Afro-Asiatic speakers who happened to be dominated by E-M81. So groups of farmers leaving for north Africa from that source population would carry at least those two haplogroups. Clannishness might ensure that the tribe of R1b1c (V88) then mainly wandered its own way. The distribution of the haplogroup suggests that it moved south across the Sahara to Lake Chad, leaving a pocket of V88 in what is now the Siwa Oasis near the western border of Egypt. This is consistent with a deduction from linguistics that Proto-Chadic emerged about 5000 BC among a people who had migrated to Lake Chad across the Sahara. [Cruciani 2010] Among the Libyan Tuareg, some R1b1c (V88) can be found among groups mainly carrying E-M81 and its brother clade E-U175.[Ottoni 2011]

Romilius

11-10-2017, 11:11 AM

Wasn't that sample from Mathieson changed and corrected in the last update of supplemental data?

Gravetto-Danubian

11-10-2017, 11:23 AM

I doubt that the acculturation happened in the Balkans, or exclusively there. The spread into Europe appears relatively minor, with V88 being more linked to E-M81 in the Levant and its spread into Africa. I assume that it arrived in the Neolithic heartlands of Western Asia with the pressure blade making technology (which took several different routes from Siberia into Europe and Western Asia). Extract from AJ:

The Chadic languages of Africa, spoken around Lake Chad, are related to the Berber group. Yet there is a marked correlation between Chadic and a completely different haplogroup, R1b1c [now R1b1a2] (V88). How could that come about? R1b1c appears in the Levant today. Picture an R1b1c (V88) man deciding to marry into a distant village. He would need to learn the language of the villagers, which in our hypothetical case was Proto-Afro-Asiatic. His descendants might make quite a tribe of their own within a few generations, but closely allied to other Afro-Asiatic speakers who happened to be dominated by E-M81. So groups of farmers leaving for north Africa from that source population would carry at least those two haplogroups. Clannishness might ensure that the tribe of R1b1c (V88) then mainly wandered its own way. The distribution of the haplogroup suggests that it moved south across the Sahara to Lake Chad, leaving a pocket of V88 in what is now the Siwa Oasis near the western border of Egypt. This is consistent with a deduction from linguistics that Proto-Chadic emerged about 5000 BC among a people who had migrated to Lake Chad across the Sahara. [Cruciani 2010] Among the Libyan Tuareg, some R1b1c (V88) can be found among groups mainly carrying E-M81 and its brother clade E-U175.[Ottoni 2011]

I don't know much about Chadic speakers t.b.h, but I was just summarizing where the data is (esp for Europe) and; African V88 is derivative from European- just look at YFull or the R1b basal Project.
Besides, pressure blades appear in near east c 7000 BC (The Onset of Pressure Blade Making in Western Anatolia in the 7th Millennium BC: A Case Study from Neolithic Çukuriçi Höyük) ; yet V88 is already in Balkans in 9000 BC.
Of course, that's not even mentioning the Villabruna sample; which had already made the link of R1b to pressure blades or pointed pottery a difficult hypothesis to maintain.

rms2

11-10-2017, 12:07 PM

Any further resolution on the Blatterhohle R1bs?

Those are two of the samples Genetiker says are either pre-V88 or V88, I1593 and I1594,

here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/11/08/y-snp-calls-from-neolithic-europe/).

Looks like Rich Rocca is right: Lipson et al meant R1b1a2 (V88) rather than R1b1a1a2 (M269) when they wrote the following:

R1b1a1a2 showed both derived and ancestral alleles of characteristic SNPs. Thus, he could only be assigned to haplogroup R1b1a.

Substitute R1b1a2 (V88) for R1b1a1a2 (M269) in the above and it's right.

Jean M

11-10-2017, 12:22 PM

... that's not even mentioning the Villabruna sample; which had already made the link of R1b to pressure blades or pointed pottery a difficult hypothesis to maintain.

No it doesn't. It simply means that R1b arrived in Europe in several waves. I suggest that the earliest R1b arrived with mammoth hunters from Siberia. Dwellings made of mammoth bone were erected between 15,000 and 14,000 years ago along the upper and middle Dnieper basin in what is now Ukraine. The sheltered river valley would provide winter quarters for those who hunted mammoth on the steppe in summer. Hunter-gatherers being highly mobile, we can picture one male trekking at far west as Villabruna about 14,000 years ago, without imagining that thenceforth all R1b spread from Italy, or even from anywhere in what is now Europe.

The key to understanding the various migrations is not just the R1b phylogeny, but the autosomal pattern of the R1b males. Three men in a group of fishermen living by the Iron Gates on the Danube c. 9000 BC were genetically typical of European hunter-gatherers and yet carried R1b1a. If the earliest arrivals from Siberia had once been genetic matches for Mal'ta boy, then intermarriage with locals had diluted their ANE component to non-existence. It was not they who contributed ANE to Yamnaya. So we look to later influences from the east. ANE appears in EHG.

Those EHG who moved north to the Baltic did not have the CHG component found in later samples from the eastern European steppe. So it is not the Baltic hunter-gatherers who gave rise to the R1b in Yamnaya or Bell Beaker.

Gravetto-Danubian

11-10-2017, 12:29 PM

No it doesn't. It simply means that R1b arrived in Europe in several waves.

That's possible, but not very parsiminous given the collation of phylogenetic and aDNA data we currently have.

I suggest that the earliest R1b arrived with mammoth hunters from Siberia. Dwellings made of mammoth bone were erected between 15,000 and 14,000 years ago along the upper and middle Dnieper basin in what is now Ukraine.

The archaeologists from central Europe & Ukraine Ive chatted with seem to think that the Mammoth hunters on the Dnieper came from Moravia & the Carpathian basin.

The key to understanding the various migrations is not just the R1b phylogeny, but the autosomal pattern of the R1b males. Three men in a group of fishermen living by the Iron Gates on the Danube c. 9000 BC were genetically typical of European hunter-gatherers and yet carried R1b1a. If the earliest arrivals from Siberia had once been genetic matches for Mal'ta boy, then intermarriage with locals had diluted their ANE component to non-existence.

.

The modelling of European LUP is very complex, with multiple waves of admixture. But to over-simplify: I suspect R1b arrived from Villabruna/ UHG type ancestry, not ANE, which instead is linked to Y hg R1a, Q and mtDNA C & R; and sticking with the evidence - there's no ANE in Villabruna R1b1-L654 - ancestral or collateral to later V88 and P297. but i think we;re straying too far from Marija now.

Jean M

11-10-2017, 12:35 PM

Why would it mean that ? Is that a parsiminous explanation of the evidence ?

If a single migration does not explain all the evidence, then it has to be abandoned for a more complex model. The arrival of EHG in Scandinavia has been linked to pressure-made blades by Günther 2017.

rms2

11-10-2017, 12:40 PM

Gravetto-Danubian

11-10-2017, 12:42 PM

If a single migration does not explain all the evidence, then it has to be abandoned for a more complex model. The arrival of EHG in Scandinavia has been linked to pressure-made blades by Günther 2017.

That paper doesn't support your position. It simply shows that EHG admixture arrived in Scandinavia via far NE Europe by 9/ 8000 BC, as expeced by the archaeological evidence of microblades long discussed.
As per above, there is R1b1 in 12000 BC south Europe without any ANE admixture, thus having little to do with microblades.
Also where is the R1b in Siberia, the 'homeland' of microblades ?

I agree that R1 originated in or near central Asia, but it seems to have expanded earlier and maybe via a more southerly aspect than you posit.

It was not they who contributed ANE to Yamnaya. So we look to later influences from the east. ANE appears in EHG.

Im not sure why you're even discussing that, let alone boldening it.

Jean M

11-10-2017, 12:44 PM

Is it likely the origin of ANE can be limited to R1a, since our original standard for ANE is Mal'ta Boy, who was R*?

It seems likely to me that R1b originated somewhere in NW Asia or far eastern Europe within the ANE milieu.

Karmin 2015 estimated the age of R1b (M343/PF6242) to between 19,361 and 22,491 y. a. A Bhutanese individual forms an outgroup almost as old as the R1a/R1b split (Hallast 2015). So R1b is likely to have originated in Central Asia.

Jean M

11-10-2017, 12:47 PM

That paper doesn't support your position. It simply shows that EHG admixture arrived in Scandinavia via far NE Europe by 9/ 8000 BC.

It specifically discusses pressure blade making. From the abstract:

This result suggests that Scandinavia was initially colonized following two different routes: one from the south, the other from the northeast. The latter followed the ice-free Norwegian north Atlantic coast, along which novel and advanced pressure-blade stone-tool techniques may have spread. These two groups met and mixed in Scandinavia, creating a genetically diverse population, which shows patterns of genetic adaptation to high latitude environments.

rms2

11-10-2017, 12:50 PM

. . .
As per above, there is R1b1 in 12000 BC south Europe without any ANE admixture . . .

That's about 10 millennia after Mal'ta Boy and over 6 millennia after the mrca of R1b. Plenty of time for a single individual immersed in a cluster of I2 WHGs to be born minus the ANE his ancestors had - and we know they had it, because he was an R.

And where is the R1b in Siberia, the 'homeland' of microblades ?

It's probably there somewhere waiting to be found. Siberia is a huge place.

Gravetto-Danubian

11-10-2017, 12:53 PM

rms2

11-10-2017, 01:00 PM

That's right. He was taking his dog for a walk and got lost.

That makes more sense than the idea that ANE is connected to R, R1, and R1a but somehow skipped R1b.

Radboud

11-10-2017, 01:01 PM

That paper doesn't support your position. It simply shows that EHG admixture arrived in Scandinavia via far NE Europe by 9/ 8000 BC, as expeced by the archaeological evidence of microblades long discussed.
As per above, there is R1b1 in 12000 BC south Europe without any ANE admixture, thus having little to do with microblades.
Also where is the R1b in Siberia, the 'homeland' of microblades ?

Villabruna might have something from the steppe near the Caucasus, there were some discussions about it.

jeanL

11-10-2017, 01:01 PM

That's about 10 millennia after Mal'ta Boy and over 6 millennia after the mrca of R1b. Plenty of time for a single individual immersed in a cluster of I2 WHGs to be born minus the ANE his ancestors had - and we know they had it, because he was an R.
It's probably there somewhere waiting to be found. Siberia is a huge place.

Mal'ta Boy was not R; he had some 54 derived private mutations; therefore he was highly derived in an extinct line; I believe at some point people were calling him R3. The fact of the matter is that R1b-V88 Iron Gates Hunter Gatherers just look extremely similar to WHG with some extra West Asian admixture; yet even more interesting is the genomic make up of the Latvian Hunter Gatherers because they are far more Western genetic wise than the Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers; this to me suggest that their R1b-P297 lines did not come from the East.

19676

Gravetto-Danubian

11-10-2017, 01:08 PM

That makes more sense than the idea that ANE is connected to R, R1, and R1a but somehow skipped R1b.

Have you considered what ANE actually is ?

rms2

11-10-2017, 01:10 PM

Mal'ta Boy was not R; he had some 54 derived private mutations; therefore he was highly derived in an extinct line; I believe at some point people were calling him R3.

No one said he was the progenitor of all later Rs, but he was as closely related to him as we are likely to get, and Mal'ta Boy is where our idea of ANE came from.

And he was R, just as I am and you r.

The fact of the matter is that R1b-V88 Iron Gates Hunter Gatherers just look extremely similar to WHG with some extra West Asian admixture; yet even more interesting is the genomic make up of the Latvian Hunter Gatherers because they are far more Western genetic wise than the Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers; this to me suggest that their R1b-P297 lines did not come from the East . . .

In each case you are talking about people who lived long after the mrca of R1b and, in the case of the Latvian P297s, long after the mrca of P297.

V88 evidently went west very early and was surrounded by much larger numbers of WHGs who belonged to y haplogroup I.

rms2

11-10-2017, 01:14 PM

But it's not a single individual obviously.

You were talking about Villabruna, and he was a single individual.

Where exactly should we look, then ?

If we trace the tracks of the dog you spoke of back to the east, perhaps we'll find it. ;)

jeanL

11-10-2017, 01:16 PM

No one said he was the progenitor of all later Rs, but he was as closely related to him as we are likely to get, and Mal'ta Boy is where our idea of ANE came from.

Having 53 derived private mutations does not make Mal'ta boy closely related to the progenitor of all the R lines.

In each case you are talking about people who lived long after the mrca of R1b and, in the case of the Latvian P297s, long after the mrca of P297.

V88 evidently went west very early and was surrounded by much larger numbers of WHGs who belonged to y haplogroup I.

Villabruna was not R1b-V88; he was R1b-L274 and already had two derived mutations in the R1b-P297 line; obviously P297 was already formed by then; but it was not that R1b-V88 went west early; it looks extremely likely with all the R1b-V88 related lines showing up in the Balkans that R1b-V88 formed and was born in Europe; specifically the Balkans. Just like R1b-P297 appears to have been born further North; yet within Europe. The reality is that while R1a has been sampled as far East as Siberia; we have DNA samples from the Near East; from the Levant; from Iran and none of them have yielded any R1b. The Easternmost R1b is Samara whose R1b-M73 status is preceded by the Latvian R1b-P297 status.

jeanL

11-10-2017, 01:19 PM

Those EHG who moved north to the Baltic did not have the CHG component found in later samples from the eastern European steppe. So it is not the Baltic hunter-gatherers who gave rise to the R1b in Yamnaya or Bell Beaker.

How exactly is it impossible for Baltic Hunter Gatherers to give rise to the R1b in Yamnaya or Bell Beakers? You do know that if EHG-rich R1b populations mixed with CHG rich populations in the Steppe; the voila you get Yamnaya. You statement above is a non-sequitur!

jeanL

11-10-2017, 01:24 PM

Here is the phylogenetic position of MA-1 aka Mal'ta boy in the R tree:

19678

Again; how exactly is Mal'ta boy R*?

Jean M

11-10-2017, 02:01 PM

How exactly is it impossible for Baltic Hunter Gatherers to give rise to the R1b in Yamnaya or Bell Beakers? You do know that if EHG-rich R1b populations mixed with CHG rich populations in the Steppe; the voila you get Yamnaya.

My supposition is a genuine case of Occam's Razor. There is no particular reason to suppose that R1b as a whole made a detour from the Middle Volga via Latvia back to the Middle Volga. There is no archaeological evidence of any such detour. So the parsimonious theory is that some R1b moved up the Volga to the Baltic, while some remained in the steppe vicinity and was part of the spread of pottery-making foragers to other riverine niches further west.

rms2

11-10-2017, 02:16 PM

Having 53 derived private mutations does not make Mal'ta boy closely related to the progenitor of all the R lines.

I did not say he was closely related to the progenitor of all of subsequent R. I said he was as closely related to him as we are likely to get.

Villabruna was not R1b-V88 . . .

I know that and I never said he was. Please don't imply that I did.

. . . he was R1b-L274 and already had two derived mutations in the R1b-P297 line; obviously P297 was already formed by then . . .

That's right, so Villabruna was on a dead end line distantly related to but not ancestral to most subsequent European R1b. It looks like he was a stray R1b HG or the scion of a stray R1b HG line that got as far west as a bit north of the headwaters of the Adriatic.

Now that you've lost Blätterhöhle, I know Villabruna has to step up to fill the void.

. . . but it was not that R1b-V88 went west early; it looks extremely likely with all the R1b-V88 related lines showing up in the Balkans that R1b-V88 formed and was born in Europe; specifically the Balkans.

Since it is likely R1b was born in Asia or far eastern Europe, either V88 went west early or its ancestor went west early.

Just like R1b-P297 appears to have been born further North; yet within Europe. The reality is that while R1a has been sampled as far East as Siberia; we have DNA samples from the Near East; from the Levant; from Iran and none of them have yielded any R1b. The Easternmost R1b is Samara whose R1b-M73 status is preceded by the Latvian R1b-P297 status.

The Latvians lived long after the mrca of P297. It isn't likely P297 was born in the Baltic but farther east.

rms2

11-10-2017, 02:27 PM

. . .

Again; how exactly is Mal'ta boy R*?

Mal'ta Boy was R* in the same sense other men with private mutations can carry an asterisk until those private mutations are shown to be shared by other men. Except in the case of Mal'ta Boy, he is 24,000 years old.

So he was R with some private mutations.

The point is that he was a male who lived 24k years ago, was R that was not R1, and is the basis for our idea of ANE. So ANE was evidently connected to R a couple of thousand years before the birth of R1.

R.Rocca

11-10-2017, 02:45 PM

My supposition is a genuine case of Occam's Razor. There is no particular reason to suppose that R1b as a whole made a detour from the Middle Volga via Latvia back to the Middle Volga. There is no archaeological evidence of any such detour. So the parsimonious theory is that some R1b moved up the Volga to the Baltic, while some remained in the steppe vicinity and was part of the spread of pottery-making foragers to other riverine niches further west.

Aside from the one Mesolithic R-V88, Matheison's pre-print shows three Neolithic R1b1a and three R1b1a(xP297, xM269). Some of the samples are of good enough quality that they should show M269 if they were positive for it. Certainly both P297 and M269 were already in existence somewhere, but not in the Ukrainian samples to date.

ADW_1981

11-10-2017, 02:56 PM

Is it likely the origin of ANE can be limited to R1a, since our original standard for ANE is Mal'ta Boy, who was R*?

It seems likely to me that R1b originated somewhere in NW Asia or far eastern Europe within the ANE milieu.

You mean to say cannot be limited to R1a.

If someone argues that R1b is WHG, then that must mean YDNA I are descended from pre-WHG if we look at the Italian Paglicci cave 30K years ago . The evidence points to two or more distinct groups of Eurasian hunter gatherers, one being further east of the others. That eastern group is descended from R*. EHG is already modeled at being 25% WHG. It shouldn't be a surprise that the western groups might look completely like the western hunter gatherers even 14,000 ybp.

rms2

11-10-2017, 03:00 PM

Mal'ta Boy was R* in the same sense other men with private mutations can carry an asterisk until those private mutations are shown to be shared by other men. Except in the case of Mal'ta Boy, he is 24,000 years old.

So he was R with some private mutations.

The point is that he was a male who lived 24k years ago, was R that was not R1, and is the basis for our idea of ANE. So ANE was evidently connected to R a couple of thousand years before the birth of R1.

I want to add something that I hope will clarify my meaning.

Since Mal'ta Boy was R but had private mutations beyond R, it is certain his contemporaries 24,000 years ago who were also R (probably few in number) also carried mutations beyond R. One of those men was the progenitor of the line leading to R1 and, subsequently, to R1a and R1b.

So, it is very significant that Mal'ta Boy was both R and carried ANE, because it isn't at all likely that he was the only R who was like that.

No doubt all his R contemporaries carried ANE, as well, including the one who became the progenitor of the line leading to R1.

Where Mal'ta Boy was found (near Lake Baikal in Siberia) is also significant.

rms2

11-10-2017, 03:02 PM

Is it likely the origin of ANE can be limited to R1a, since our original standard for ANE is Mal'ta Boy, who was R*? . . .

You mean to say cannot be limited to R1a.

No, I meant what I wrote, since it is in the form of a question (a rhetorical question, really, since the answer is obviously no).

Romilius

11-10-2017, 05:13 PM

Those are two of the samples Genetiker says are either pre-V88 or V88, I1593 and I1594,

here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/11/08/y-snp-calls-from-neolithic-europe/).

Looks like Rich Rocca is right: Lipson et al meant R1b1a2 (V88) rather than R1b1a1a2 (M269) when they wrote the following:

Substitute R1b1a2 (V88) for R1b1a1a2 (M269) in the above and it's right.

Are you sure Lipson wanted to write R1b1a2?

rms2

11-10-2017, 06:14 PM

Are you sure Lipson wanted to write R1b1a2?

I don't know for sure, but R1b1a2 and R1b1a1a2 are easily confused, and R1b1a2 used to be the longhand for M269, which adds to the confusion.

If Genetiker is right, then R1b1a2 (V88) is correct and Lipson et al made a mistake in writing R1b1a1a2 (M269).

Romilius

11-10-2017, 07:28 PM

I don't know for sure, but R1b1a2 and R1b1a1a2 are easily confused, and R1b1a2 used to be the longhand for M269, which adds to the confusion.

If Genetiker is right, then R1b1a2 (V88) is correct and Lipson et al made a mistake in writing R1b1a1a2 (M269).

I don't remember the quote from the paper... probably there is mention of the derived SNPs.

Gravetto-Danubian

11-10-2017, 11:10 PM

No doubt all his R contemporaries carried ANE, as well, including the one who became the progenitor of the line leading to R1.

Where Mal'ta Boy was found (near Lake Baikal in Siberia) is also significant.

It's significant because it shows constant population turnover and localised extinctions in Siberia just like in Europe - from Ust-ishm's dead line to the extinct Mal'ta R3 to Afantova Gora then again replacement in EBA.
In proposing that R1b expanded from Siberia c. 20 ky BP, then we see some evidence for it - archaeological & aDNA, and this should be explained in a coherent, sensical manner.
Of course, if there is new evidence for that, I'm all ears. In the meantime, we should move with the evidence which does exist.

Villabruna might have something from the steppe near the Caucasus, there were some discussions about it.

Maybe, before the latest couple of studies.
The latest evidence makes the expansion of Villabruna from the steppe rather unlikely, actually. That's because the earliest evidence for its admixture comes from Dolni Vestonice (ECE), then El Miron (Iberia), whilst lacking in contemporary or near contemporary Russian samples (Kostenkiis, Sunghir).
There is also a new, or developing, model for ANE, which I'd encourage JeanM, ADW and RMS2 to consider in light of their comments.

ADW_1981

11-11-2017, 06:18 AM

It's significant because it shows constant population turnover and localised extinctions in Siberia just like in Europe - from Ust-ishm's dead line to the extinct Mal'ta R3 to Afantova Gora then again replacement in EBA.
In proposing that R1b expanded from Siberia c. 20 ky BP, then we see some evidence for it - archaeological & aDNA, and this should be explained in a coherent, sensical manner.
Of course, if there is new evidence for that, I'm all ears. In the meantime, we should move with the evidence which does exist.

Maybe, before the latest couple of studies.
The latest evidence makes the expansion of Villabruna from the steppe rather unlikely, actually. That's because the earliest evidence for its admixture comes from Dolni Vestonice (ECE), then El Miron (Iberia), whilst lacking in contemporary or near contemporary Russian samples (Kostenkiis, Sunghir).
There is also a new, or developing, model for ANE, which I'd encourage JeanM, ADW and RMS2 to consider in light of their comments.

Are there new studies that suggest EHG is not a mix of 75% ANE and 25% WHG? Please point me to them, I'd be curious to give them a read. Recall that Ukranian Mesolithic/Neolithic samples are a close fit to EHG as opposed to WHG, and the slightly western samples from Iron Gates are modeled as WHG. Both populations have I2-M223 and R1b. At a glance this indicates 2 distinct groups of hunter gatherers in the stone age. One group having spread from the Balkans entering via Anatolia (especially if you examine the distribution of I2c2) and the other via Russia (R1 should be a no brainer here). Based on the model from my first sentence, it appears they interbred. Yet, what you are suggesting is R1 spread from both locations and were separated long enough to be distinct. That doesn't seem to be the rational explanation, even when looking at the ancient "Villabrunan" R1b from NE Italy. Both populations of hunter gatherers were likely already in contact 14000 ybp.

Gravetto-Danubian

11-11-2017, 06:47 AM

Are there new studies that suggest EHG is not a mix of 75% ANE and 25% WHG? Please point me to them,

Well, there is the much discussed Lipson study which argued EHG can be modelled as 61% WHG & 39% ANE (Fig S6.1)
Whatever the case, even more important is the recent Fu study which demonstrated that ANE is a mixture of something proto-west Eurasian and ENA.

Recall that Ukranian Mesolithic/Neolithic samples are a close fit to EHG as opposed to WHG

In fact, the 'near EHG' status of Ukraine Mesolithic is characterised by an utter dominance of I2a2a1. When R1b appears in later periods, there is a slight but notable WHG -shift in Ukraine. I;m not saying we must read too much into this, but it certainly is pertinent.

At a glance this indicates 2 distinct groups of hunter gatherers in the stone age. One group having spread from the Balkans entering via Anatolia (especially if you examine the distribution of I2c2) and the other via Russia (R1 should be a no brainer here).

We can be sure that there were a whole lot more than 2 Stone Age hunter networks and migrations; and, e.g., the spread of I2c which probably moved into Anatolia)
Now, R1b might have come north of the Black Sea, or maybe even south. but R1b seems to have been so widespread already by the LUP, that we need to be fairly bouyant in approach.

Jean M

11-11-2017, 10:17 AM

Aside from the one Mesolithic R-V88, Matheison's pre-print shows three Neolithic R1b1a and three R1b1a(xP297, xM269). Some of the samples are of good enough quality that they should show M269 if they were positive for it. Certainly both P297 and M269 were already in existence somewhere, but not in the Ukrainian samples to date.

Yes I know. That is why this speculation that P297 made a detour via the Baltic arose in the first place, and why I have countered it with logical deduction. We do not really need ancient samples of every single node in the R1b tree to work out how R1b ended up among IE speakers in Western Europe. Some of us worked it without any aDNA at all. ;)

Jean M

11-11-2017, 10:46 AM

The latest evidence makes the expansion of Villabruna from the steppe rather unlikely, actually. That's because the earliest evidence for its admixture comes from Dolni Vestonice (ECE), then El Miron (Iberia), whilst lacking in contemporary or near contemporary Russian samples ...

Obviously the Villabruna sample was not steppe-like autosomally. It is only his Y-DNA that suggests a male-line ancestor from the steppe maybe a thousand or more years earlier. Equally obviously therefore descendants of said Villabruna sample cannot account for the ANE component in the R1b1a male buried at Sok River, Samara c. 5650-5555 BC [I0124/SVP 44] among the earliest pottery-makers to arrive in Europe from Siberia.

We need to be aware of unacknowledged bias. Europhiles may have an instinctive distaste that they barely recognise in themselves for any idea that a large chunk of their ancestry came originally from outside Europe. That has led to illogical rearguard argument that we are 100% descended from Neanderthals, or that farming actually arose independently in Greece. The contortions required to derive ANE from somewhere in Europe are a massive clue that they come from the heart rather than the head.

Gravetto-Danubian

11-11-2017, 10:52 AM

Obviously the Villabruna sample was not steppe-like autosomally. It is only his Y-DNA that suggests a male-line ancestor from the steppe maybe a thousand or more years earlier.

Yes, perhaps.

Equally obviously therefore descendants of said Villabruna sample cannot account for the ANE component in the R1b1a male buried at Sok River, Samara c. 5650-5555 BC [I0124/SVP 44] among the earliest pottery-makers to arrive in Europe from Siberia.

Quite obviously. So if early R1b lacks ANE admixture, whilst later and eastern R1b does, it obviously means that it received its admixture from something else. That's not an unreasonable position at this juncture.

We need to be aware of unacknowledged bias. Europhiles may have an instinctive distaste that they barely recognise in themselves for any idea that a large chunk of their ancestry came originally from outside Europe. That has led to illogical rearguard argument that we are 100% descended from Neanderthals, or that farming actually arose independently in Greece. The contortions required to derive ANE from somewhere in Europe are a massive clue that they come from the heart rather than the head.

That's an interesting side-point. Are you suggesting Im a Europhile ? Because I'm not suggesting R1b is from Europe.

ernekar

11-11-2017, 11:05 AM

Is it not possible that Ma'lta boy was just a stray "R" from Europe who was assimilated by Q's or something in north eurasia?
He could be derived from V88's ancestor in Europe.
That ancestor could have lived in Europe, and at some point branched into central european R1b's and eastern european R1a.
Then with the arrival of G2 farmers in central europe, most of those men carrying R1b would flee to eastern europe or survive in central Europe in the form of assimilated V88(or other R1b) farmers.
The ones that fled to eastern europe, got assimilated by pastoralists, and then later reentered europe alongside J2's and R1a's.

I dont even know if i believe this theory myself, but i am just trying to put things in perspective. Because some of you guys put it like it is self-evident that the R haplogroup must be related to north eurasia and the steppe. So self-evident in fact, that everytime some "R" pop up in non-steppe or non-north-eurasian context in any pre-bronze-age site, you call them "strays".

So what makes Ma'lta less stray than the V88 and other pre-bronze-age R1b in europe?
How do we know he wasn't just the ancestor of a R-guy who got kidnapped and assimilated into a big tribe of Q's or N's a couple of centuries earlier?

Please enlighten me, i do not know much about this stuff. But i just can't figure out the logic.

Jean M

11-11-2017, 11:16 AM

Quite obviously. So if early R1b lacks ANE admixture, whilst later and eastern R1b does, it obviously means that it received its admixture from something else. That's not an unreasonable position at this juncture.

It might seem that way to those unaware that:

The earliest R* that we have is from Central Asia in a sample that gave us the model for ANE.
A Bhutanese R1b* individual forms an outgroup almost as old as the R1a/R1b split (Hallast 2015).
We have far more ancient DNA from Europe than we have from Central Asia so far.
Archaeological evidence shows inventions from Siberia (hunter-gatherer pottery and pressure-made blades) arrived in Eastern Europe via the steppe with indviduals carrying R1a and R1b and ANE.

Ebizur

11-11-2017, 11:28 AM

Is it not possible that Ma'lta boy was just a stray "R" from Europe who was assimilated by Q's or something in north eurasia?
He could be derived from V88's ancestor in Europe.
That ancestor could have lived in Europe, and at some point branched into central european R1b's and eastern european R1a.The Y-DNA of the Mal'ta specimen appears to be basal to the most recent common ancestor of R1 and R2. In other words, haplogroup R2 (now found mainly in South Asia) is more closely related to R1a and R1b than any of R2, R1a, or R1b is related to the Y-DNA of the Mal'ta specimen.

So what makes Ma'lta less stray than the V88 and other pre-bronze-age R1b in europe?
How do we know he wasn't just the ancestor of a R-guy who got kidnapped and assimilated into a big tribe of Q's or N's a couple of centuries earlier?I am sympathetic to the point of view that you have expressed in this comment, but I would note that the Mal'ta specimen's estimated time of deposition predates the Villabruna specimen's estimated time of deposition by 10,000 or more years. The Mal'ta specimen is the oldest physical evidence for the existence of Y-DNA belonging to haplogroup R that we have to date.

Jean M

11-11-2017, 11:41 AM

Is it not possible that Ma'lta boy was just a stray "R" from Europe who was assimilated by Q's or something in north eurasia?

R and Q are brother lineages, both descended from P. See https://yfull.com/tree/P/
P is found today in Asia. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P_(Y-DNA)
R gave rise to R1 and R2. R2 is found in Central and South Asia. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R2
The Y-DNA samples that we have from Palaeolithic Europe are dominated by clades which are rare today in Europe, notably C1a2. Within that overall picture, the R1b1a sample from Villabruna has much more the appearance of a stray than does Ma'lta boy. See http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/palaeolithicdna.shtml

Gravetto-Danubian

11-11-2017, 11:59 AM

It might seem that way to those unaware that:
[LIST]
The earliest R* that we have is from Central Asia in a sample that gave us the model for ANE.
A Bhutanese R1b* individual forms an outgroup almost as old as the R1a/R1b split (Hallast 2015).
We have far more ancient DNA from Europe than we have from Central Asia so far.

Yes we all agree that R1b is from the East, and somewhere near Central Asia, which moved west at some point.

Archaeological evidence shows inventions from Siberia (hunter-gatherer pottery and pressure-made blades) arrived in Eastern Europe via the steppe with indviduals carrying R1a and R1b and ANE.

Yes, there is archaeological evidence of pressure blades arriving from Siberia, which seems to coincide the appearance R1a and Q in the record.
The spread of ceramics through eastern Europe was a multifaceted process, one of which involved contacts with Siberia, but at a time when all said haplogroups (Q, R1a, R1b) had long appeared, so it's somewhat irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Lastly, we have the oldest R1b in Europe being present long before blades and pots. The diversification of R1a/ R1b and European R1b are different episodes occurring in different areas at different times, and the expansion of L754 is certainly not rooted in the East.
Btw, you do realise Bhutan isn't in Siberia ?;)

ernekar

11-11-2017, 12:28 PM

The Y-DNA of the Mal'ta specimen appears to be basal to the most recent common ancestor of R1 and R2. In other words, haplogroup R2 (now found mainly in South Asia) is more closely related to R1a and R1b than any of R2, R1a, or R1b is related to the Y-DNA of the Mal'ta specimen.

I am sympathetic to the point of view that you have expressed in this comment, but I would note that the Mal'ta specimen's estimated time of deposition predates the Villabruna specimen's estimated time of deposition by 10,000 or more years. The Mal'ta specimen is the oldest physical evidence for the existence of Y-DNA belonging to haplogroup R that we have to date.

Yes i know i seems basal. But that is because we have not found anything older yet.
There is still a chance that Ma'lta boys "R" ancestor can pop up in europe(or somewhere else for that matter).
That same european ancestor could have stayed in Europe, where it would still be found 20k years later, in the form of villabruna and neolithic R1b's. (while R1a would slowly move a little more east, and R2 slowly to the south from R1a)

My point is just that Ma'lta boy is kind of useless for determining the origins of "R" right now, because without more of his kind, we do not know if he was just a single occurence of autosomally assimilated "R" in ancient north eurasia, or if the majority of his kin really were "R" too.

Personally i have no idea what to believe yet, as i need more evidence to make conclusions. But we should all beware of looking at specific data as god-given facts or as irreversible truths. Because once a part of history in entangled in too many paradigms and self-evident truths, it will slow the progress of human enlightenment, as most of academics will be using their time detangling, instead of studying and improving our knowledge.

ernekar

11-11-2017, 01:01 PM

R and Q are brother lineages, both descended from P. See https://yfull.com/tree/P/
P is found today in Asia. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P_(Y-DNA)
R gave rise to R1 and R2. R2 is found in Central and South Asia. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R2
The Y-DNA samples that we have from Palaeolithic Europe are dominated by clades which are rare today in Europe, notably C1a2. Within that overall picture, the R1b1a sample from Villabruna has much more the appearance of a stray than does Ma'lta boy. See http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/palaeolithicdna.shtml

Yes, they are all good points here. But what they really imply is that the P/Q/R group took the central eurasian route to get to europe(not the levantine/anatolian route).
But it does not tell us whether the first person of this group to turn into haplogroup R originated in Europe or in Central asia.
It does not tell us if the first person to have the R1b haplogroup originated in europe or in the steppe either.
And third, it does not tell us if the autosomal makeup which we in modern days have labelled ANE, is linked to haplogroup R or not.

Jean M

11-11-2017, 02:12 PM

Yes, they are all good points here. But what they really imply is that the P/Q/R group took the central eurasian route to get to europe(not the levantine/anatolian route).

It certainly does indicate this. To me it further indicates that those of European descent who desperately want R to have arisen from P in Europe, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, are yielding to the home-sweet-home impulse. The desire to believe in population continuity in home-sweet-home from the earliest conceivable past time has even corrupted a certain academic discipline for decades. So it is no surprise to find it outside academia.

The reality is that Europe is just a large peninsula of Asia. The people of prehistory would have had no notion that they were moving across a boundary when they entered Europe either from Western Asia (across the land bridge that once linked them west of the Black Sea, or via the Caucasus) or from Central Asia via the steppe. Their loyalties would lie with their group on the move, not to a particular piece of land. The idea of nations with boundaries is ingrained in us, but is relatively modern in the life of Homo sapiens. The idea of Europe as distinct from Asia scarcely goes back much further.

jeanL

11-11-2017, 02:42 PM

We need to be aware of unacknowledged bias. Europhiles may have an instinctive distaste that they barely recognise in themselves for any idea that a large chunk of their ancestry came originally from outside Europe. That has led to illogical rearguard argument that we are 100% descended from Neanderthals, or that farming actually arose independently in Greece. The contortions required to derive ANE from somewhere in Europe are a massive clue that they come from the heart rather than the head.

@Gravetto-Danubian: The above isn't an interesting side-point; Also note that; she failed to mentioned that while R1b1a male buried at Sok River, Samara c. 5650-5555 BC [I0124/SVP 44] was modeled as pure EHG; Latvians-HG dated to 2000 years before I0124 were already derived for R1b-P297 so it doesn't fit the timeline or direction she is trying to push. But; hey if R1b-P297 males on the M73 line moved from Latvia or the Baltic to the Russian steppe evidence be damned if they didn't leave an archaeological trail.

Romilius

11-11-2017, 02:53 PM

@Gravetto-Danubian: The above isn't an interesting side-point; it's Jean Manco modus operandi whenever the facts do not support her assertions. She uses the "feelings fail safe card" and appeals to some unknown congitive bias that only seems to exists in her head; much like how light skin came from farmers and for the longest time she kept denying the existence of the mutations in Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers and Eastern Hunter Gathers; because we do not want to incentivize the "Europhiles" to claim that Europeans have had light skin since before the Neolithic. It's called Reductio Ad Absurdum and I'm sure she is quite familiar with it. Also note that; she failed to mentioned that while R1b1a male buried at Sok River, Samara c. 5650-5555 BC [I0124/SVP 44] was modeled as pure EHG; Latvians-HG dated to 2000 years before I0124 were already derived for R1b-P297 so it doesn't fit the timeline or direction she is trying to push. But; hey if R1b-P297 males on the M73 line moved from Latvia or the Baltic to the Russian steppe evidence be damned if they didn't leave an archaeological trail. I'm a being a little Basque boy Misses Manco? Or is my nationalism getting out of hand again?

Well... You also don't shine for scientifical impartiality and with you a lot more users over there, also on the R1a-superior-race-supporter-club side... that I see even more dangerous than R1b-indigenous supporters...

jeanL

11-11-2017, 02:55 PM

It certainly does indicate this. To me it further indicates that those of European descent who desperately want R to have arisen from P in Europe, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, are yielding to the home-sweet-home impulse. Said desire to believe in population continuity in home-sweet-home from the earliest conceivable past time has even corrupted a certain academic discipline for decades. So it is no surprise to find it outside academia.

The reality is that Europe is just a large peninsula of Asia. The people of prehistory would have had no notion that they were moving across a boundary when they entered Europe either from Western Asia (across the land bridge that once linked them west of the Black Sea, or via the Caucasus) or from Central Asia via the steppe. Their loyalties would lie with their group on the move, not to a particular piece of land. The idea of nations with boundaries is ingrained in us, but is relatively modern in the life of Homo sapiens. The idea of Europe as distinct from Asia scarcely goes back much further.

Here, here kids. Miss Manco is helping us understand logical fallacies today. The above is what many call a Strawman argument. You see Miss Manco has no logical answer to the fact that R1b makes into the European archeaogenetical record before the arrival of pressure blades; i.e. Villabruna circa 12000 BC; so instead she proceeds to build a Strawman (i.e That Haplogroup R must have risen from P in Europe); note nobody here is arguing against the R1b migrated to Europe from Asia at some point. Once the Strawman is built; then she can gloriously defeated it and throw in the "people who go against my arguments are racist" (I'm sorry I meant nationalistic Europhiles!) side piece.

jeanL

11-11-2017, 02:58 PM

Well... You also don't shine for scientifical impartiality and with you a lot more users over there, also on the R1a-superior-race-supporter-club side... that I see even more dangerous than R1b-indigenous supporters...

In his steed the White Knight arrives to save the damsel in distress! If you make claims back them up by evidence; otherwise is just scatter noise that adds zero value! Alright Amici!

rms2

11-11-2017, 03:05 PM

The Latvian P297s are cool, but they all lived at least 4,000 years after the mrca of P297 was born. They tell us that some P297 had gotten as far west as the Baltic in NE Europe 9,000 years ago. They don't really tell us where P297 came from and they certainly do not tell us that all individuals carrying P297 differed from their R and R1 ancestors in lacking ANE.

Villabruna was not P297 at a time when individuals who were P297 had long been in existence, so his relevance to subsequent European and Asian R1b-P297 descended individuals is not great. He is even less help in telling us where P297 came from than the Latvians are.

And the much ballyhooed Blätterhöhle skeletons turned out to be squib-load V88s or pre-V88.

Jean M

11-11-2017, 03:19 PM

Btw, you do realise Bhutan isn't in Siberia ?;)

I do indeed. My geography is not quite that bad. :biggrin1:

I still have questions on the timing of R1b*'s move into the Himalayas and R2's arrival in South Asia. In fact there is a lot more I'd like to know.

Romilius

11-11-2017, 03:52 PM

In his steed the White Knight arrives to save the damsel in distress! If you make claims back them up by evidence; otherwise is just scatter noise that adds zero value! Alright Amici!

I'm so sorry but... it's not me that defend the R1b-pre indoeuropean connection... I'm frankly only interested in R1b because of its great branching and gloomy history, probably the most exciting among haplogroups.

And... no, I'm not the white knight... only descended from a noble patrician family from Bergamo. And... oh no... I'm neither R1a nor R1b... what a shame!

GailT

11-11-2017, 04:33 PM

In his steed the White Knight arrives to save the damsel in distress! If you make claims back them up by evidence; otherwise is just scatter noise that adds zero value! Alright Amici!

Good advice, but that's rich coming from you, after you've just written 3 posts filled with ridicule and sarcasm instead of evidence.

We don't need go to back very far in the archives to find people celebrating the deep European presence of R1b even when the evidence suggested that most modern R1b arrived in western Europe in the late Neolithic or Bronze age.

note nobody here is arguing against the R1b migrated to Europe from Asia at some point.

I think we are arguing about the details of the migrations of R1b, early migrations that perhaps died out or are now extremely rare, versus the much later migrations that came to dominate western Europe. The scenario Jean M describes seems consistent with the ancient and modern DNA evidence currently available, so maybe you can describe specifically where you disagree?

vettor

11-11-2017, 05:24 PM

I do indeed. My geography is not quite that bad. :biggrin1:

I still have questions on the timing of R1b*'s move into the Himalayas and R2's arrival in South Asia. In fact there is a lot more I'd like to know.

migration sometimes creates new subclades
R - south east Asia
R1 - Himalayas
R2 - India
R1b and R1a split south of the Aral sea

my opinion

vettor

11-11-2017, 05:27 PM

rms2

11-11-2017, 05:27 PM

migration sometimes creates new subclades
R - south east Asia
R1 - Himalayas
R2 - India
R1b and R1a split south of the Aral sea

my opinion

Interesting. If you could flesh that out with your reasons for thinking that way, I would appreciate it.

I am being sincere in asking that and respect your opinion. I'm not picking a fight or trying to be a smart ass.

vettor

11-11-2017, 05:31 PM

Interesting. If you could flesh that out with your reasons for thinking that way, I would appreciate it.

I am being sincere in asking that and respect your opinion. I'm not picking a fight or trying to be a smart ass.

the first is from karafet 2x papers of 2014 and 2015 , the others are based on old samples in the areas I read and noted ...........as I said , apart from the first the rest is my opinion.

kinman

11-11-2017, 05:57 PM

I can see R1a and R1b splitting south of the Aral Sea, but I also believe R1, R2, and their parent R all originated in the "Stans" area (probably in the Tajikistan/Kyrgyzstan region).

I therefore have never understood why some say R arose further east (in southeast Asia) and others say further west. The Tajikistan/Krygyzstan area is central to all the interesting early remains of R, R1, and R2. From there they radiated in all directions.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

migration sometimes creates new subclades
R - south east Asia
R1 - Himalayas
R2 - India
R1b and R1a split south of the Aral sea

my opinion

Romilius

11-11-2017, 06:26 PM

By the way, I sent an e-mail to Mark Lipson asking about that Blatterhohle sample and if the derived SNPs are on the V88 line or equivalent (like R1b1a2a2 and not R1b1a1a2)... waiting for an answer now... I hope.

rms2

11-11-2017, 07:29 PM

By way of pulling this thread back on topic, compare these excerpts from Olalde et al's The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe, page 3, and Gimbutas' The Civilization of the Goddess, pages 390 and 401.

However, human migration did have an important role in the further dissemination of the Beaker Complex, which we document most clearly in Britain using data from 80 newly reported individuals dating to 3900–1200 BCE. British Neolithic farmers were genetically similar to contemporary populations in continental Europe and in particular to Neolithic Iberians, suggesting that a portion of the farmer ancestry in Britain came from the Mediterranean rather than the Danubian route of farming expansion. Beginning with the Beaker period, and continuing through the Bronze Age, all British individuals harboured high proportions of Steppe ancestry and were genetically closely related to Beaker-associated individuals from the Lower Rhine area. We use these observations to show that the spread of the Beaker Complex to Britain was mediated by migration from the continent that replaced >90% of Britain’s Neolithic gene pool within a few hundred years, continuing the process that brought Steppe ancestry into central and northern Europe 400 years earlier.

The Bell Beaker culture of western Europe which diffused between 2500 and 2100 B.C. between central Europe, the British Isles, and the Iberian Peninsula, could not have arisen in a vacuum. The mobile horse-riding and warrior people who buried their dead in Yamna type kurgans certainly could not have developed out of any west European culture . . .

4. The warlike and horse-riding Bell Beaker people of the middle and second half of the third millennium B.C., who diffused over western Europe, are likely to have originated from an amalgam of remnants of the Vucedol people with the Yamna colonists (after Wave No. 3) in Yugoslavia and Hungary. Their parent culture is called Vinkovci-Samogyvar. This was the largest and last outmigration, from east-central Europe into western Europe, up to the west Mediterranean and the British Isles, before the onset of a more stable period, and the formation of Bronze Age cultural units.

Gravetto-Danubian

11-11-2017, 10:59 PM

The Latvian P297s are cool, but they all lived at least 4,000 years after the mrca of P297 was born. They tell us that some P297 had gotten as far west as the Baltic in NE Europe 9,000 years ago. They don't really tell us where P297 came from and they certainly do not tell us that all individuals carrying P297 differed from their R and R1 ancestors in lacking ANE.

Villabruna was not P297 at a time when individuals who were P297 had long been in existence, so his relevance to subsequent European and Asian R1b-P297 descended individuals is not great. He is even less help in telling us where P297 came from than the Latvians are.

Curious summing up of evidence.

We have have - L754 (~ a basal state to P297) in southern Europe, at just the approx. point in time when P297 was 'emerging', and the East Baltic was being colonized from the Epi-Gravettian parts of Europe.
I'd call that a smoking gun if I've ever seen one

rms2

11-11-2017, 11:28 PM

How is that irrelevant ?

Where did you see the word irrelevant in my post? I said Villabruna's relevance for "subsequent European and Asian R1b-P297 descended individuals is not great". Not irrelevant, but not very relevant, since he was not P297 himself and P297 had been in existence for over a thousand years when Villabruna was born.

We have have - L754 (~ a basal state to P297) in southern Europe, at just the approx. point in time when P297 was 'emerging', and the East Baltic was being colonized from the Epi-Gravettian parts of Europe.

Villabruna was not P297 and was born over a thousand years after the mrca of P297. He represents a distantly related, xP297 dead end line that evidently died off just north of the headwaters of the Adriatic.

rms2

11-11-2017, 11:34 PM

Haha
Anti-R1b ? You wish.
I'm just anti - BS of the wilfully ignorant / cognitively dissonant

But I'll leave you to your circle jerk

Not much of an argument. More childish name calling.

rms2

11-11-2017, 11:35 PM

Haha more lies by RMS2 because he doesn't have the brain to debate with facts, so he brings out his Alex Jonesian PTSD anti-R1b rather rubbish .
Please substantiate your claims then...

Anti-R1b ? You wish.
I'm just anti - BS of the wilfully ignorant / cognitively dissonant

But I'll leave you to your circle jerk

Better to reply to the updated version: it's brilliant.

Gravetto-Danubian

11-11-2017, 11:36 PM

Not much of an argument. More childish name calling.

But please, qualify your claims- where I my anti-R1b statements ?
You mean because I suggested it came from south Europe ?

jeanL

11-12-2017, 12:02 AM

I think we are arguing about the details of the migrations of R1b, early migrations that perhaps died out or are now extremely rare, versus the much later migrations that came to dominate western Europe. The scenario Jean M describes seems consistent with the ancient and modern DNA evidence currently available, so maybe you can describe specifically where you disagree?

Most of my disagreements are clearly explained in my replies; which you clearly did not bother reading! Why doesn't Miss Manco explain to all us how can R1b have arrived in NE Europe with the pressure microblades with the Ancient DNA record showing R1b1a in European soil millennia before the arrival of the pressure Microblades.

rms2

11-12-2017, 12:05 AM

Gravetto-Danubian

11-12-2017, 12:23 AM

I think I will avoid responding to your incendiary, ad hominem attacks from now on, Gravetto-Danubian. I'm not sure why my posts anger you so easily, but now you have accused me of being a racist, a liar, having insufficient brain power and of venerating something I'm not sure of.

I am surprised to learn that southern Europeans belong to a "race" separate from my own. That never occurred to me.

I believe i answered your question already. You are unable to mount an argument based on fact, so you then bury the conversations in false accusations of anti -R1b phobia. I make no joke when I say this must stem from years bygone, from when I wasnt even in the blogosphere. This is not the first time you've done it, either. In fact, you seem to give every new person the third degree on "what haplogroups are you?" as if everyone is a petty tribalist.
So when you engage in blatant lies and mis accusation, don't expect roses.
Anyhow , my apologies ; I'll let you get back to BB

rms2

11-12-2017, 12:32 AM

I believe i answered your question already. You are unable to mount an argument based on fact, so you then bury the conversations in false accusations of anti -R1b phobia. I make no joke when I say this must stem from years bygone, from when I wasnt even in the blogosphere. So when you engage in blatant lies and mis accusation, don't expect roses.

I trust you read my post.

Here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=309628&viewfull=1#post309628) it is.

Do I need to repeat that Villabruna was NOT P297 at a time when P297 was already in existence for over a thousand years? That is a fact.

You said you would leave me to my veneration (whatever that meant), so I responded in kind and left you to what I think troubles you. That set you off, evidently.

You followed up with childish personal attacks that are all groundless.

rms2

11-12-2017, 12:41 AM

Apparently I am an anti-Latvian "racist", too, since I pointed out something I am supposed to lack the brain power to notice, i.e., that the Latvian P297s lived 4,000 years after the mrca of P297. That means their existence cannot tell us where P297 originated, only that it was in NE Europe near the Baltic about 9,000 years ago.

Gravetto-Danubian

11-12-2017, 12:52 AM

I trust you read my post.

Here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=309628&viewfull=1#post309628) it is.

Do I need to repeat that Villabruna was NOT P297 at a time when P297 was already in existence for over a thousand years? That is a fact.
It's also a fact that P297 is missing from the Samara valley or Siberia at this point too
In fact, neither the Baltic nor Caspian steppe were inhabited at this time; but were soon to be so. But this came from the Caucasus-black sea/ Carpathian region, according to prevailing theories

You said you would leave me to my veneration (whatever that meant)
Yes you joke about statues of Marija, I was merely playing at that . Nothing sinister

rms2

11-12-2017, 01:01 AM

It's also a fact that P297 is missing from the Samara valley or Siberia at this point too
In fact, neither the Baltic nor Caspian steppe were inhabited at this time; but were soon to be so. But this came from the Caucasus-black sea/ Carpathian region, according to prevailing theories

Okay, but not a lot of digging has been done anywhere.

You and I should get along famously. I don't get why we don't.

Yes you joke about statues of Marija, I was merely playing at that . Nothing sinister

Ah. In that case, that was well said. I just did not get what you were driving at. I do kind of venerate her, it's true.