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rms2
11-22-2014, 03:35 AM
Here is something interesting from the new paper, Human paleogenetics of Europe: The known knowns and the known unknowns (http://www.researchgate.net/publication/268333605_Human_paleogenetics_of_Europe__The_known _knowns_and_the_known_unknowns).



. . . [T]here is increasing evidence for a Mesolithic population structure in Eurasia, justifying a closer look at the available data. Malyarchuk et al. (2010) studied the modern-day distribution of subhaplogroup U5
in particular and proposed different places of origin during the Upper Paleolithic for each of the sub-clades, with U5b in the West and U5a in the East. This is in accordance with studies that linked
sub-haplogroups of U5b, such as U5b1b1 and U5b3, with an expansion after the Last Glacial Maximum from southwestern refugia in Franco-Cantabria and Italy, respectively (Achilli et al.,
2005; Pala et al., 2009). So far, final conclusions cannot be drawn from the small number of ancient individuals from each separate aDNA study. However, when taken together it appears that ancient
hunter-gatherer samples confirm the hypothesis of different places of origin for each of the U5 sub-clades, showing higher frequencies of U5b in the West (Chandler et al., 2005; Hervella et al., 2012;
Sanchez-Quinto et al., 2012), with U5a more common in the (North)east (Bramanti et al., 2009; Krause et al., 2010; Der Sarkissian et al., 2013; Lazaridis et al., 2014), and a mixed composition
in Central Europe (Bramanti et al., 2009; Bollongino et al., 2013; Fu et al., 2013) . . .

As such, based on the current state of research, the presence of haplogroups N*, H, U5b, and U4 (albeit at low frequency) and the absence of U2 and U5a, could be interpreted as the
genetic Mesolithic substratum of Southwestern Europe. In contrast, East European hunter-gatherers show a different haplogroup composition, which is based on higher frequencies of U2, U4, and
U5a than in Central and South Europe, very low frequencies of H, and the absence of U5b and N*. (Brandt et al, 2014, p. 5)

J Man
11-22-2014, 03:39 AM
Here is something interesting from the new paper, Human paleogenetics of Europe: The known knowns and the known unknowns (http://www.researchgate.net/publication/268333605_Human_paleogenetics_of_Europe__The_known _knowns_and_the_known_unknowns).

Well there were a few U5b samples found in the Narva culture remains from Lithuania who were late hunter-gatherers.

rms2
11-22-2014, 03:43 AM
Well there were a few U5b samples found in the Narva culture remains from Lithuania who were late hunter-gatherers.

How late? I think Brandt et al are talking about clearly Mesolithic mtDNA profiles without the possibility of later introgression.

rms2
11-22-2014, 04:37 AM
Well there were a few U5b samples found in the Narva culture remains from Lithuania who were late hunter-gatherers.

I see those now, at Jean's Ancestral Journeys (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml) site, circa 4400 BC and 4200 BC.

Maybe Brandt et al were talking about relative scarcity and did not mean there is absolutely no Mesolithic eastern U5b. I don't see any Mesolithic western U5a at Jean's site. It's all eastern or central.

I guess that may also be late enough to be considered the product of western input. (?)

GailT
11-22-2014, 04:46 AM
As such, based on the current state of research, the presence of haplogroups N*, H, U5b, and U4 (albeit at low frequency) and the absence of U2 and U5a, could be interpreted as the genetic Mesolithic substratum of Southwestern Europe. In contrast, East European hunter-gatherers show a different haplogroup composition, which is based on higher frequencies of U2, U4, and
U5a than in Central and South Europe.

I think Brandt et al. get more things wrong than right here. The greatest diversity of U5a1 and U5a2 is found today in central and northern Europe, and I think it is likely that they originated in LGM refugia in the region from Franco-Cantabria to Italy and the Balkans. U5a has also been found in samples more than 10,000 years old in Germany, so we know U5a was present in central Europe in the Mesolithic. U5b1 clearly originated in the LGM in Iberia, and U5b probably overlapped with the range of U5a. U5b2 might have originated in Franco-Cantabria and U5b3 in Italy, although I don't think we can be that precise, and they might not have been limited to those specific areas. The only known U5a* sample (DQ156212) is from Spain, so it's possible there is a new U5a3 group that remains to be discovered in southwestern Europe.

It seems certain that there were extensive east-west migrations of U5 and U4 in the Mesolithic in which U5 migrated to eastern Europe and central Asia, and U4 migrated from from the east to western Europe in the later Mesolithic. U4 doesn't appear in central Europe (Germany and Sweden) until after 9000 years ago, and it probably originated in an LGM refugium in eastern Europe (perhaps Ukraine and the Black Sea region).

Brandt makes the mistake of looking at the greatest frequency of U5 without accounting for the fact that most of the frequency is represented by a small number of relatively young U5 subclades who probably expanded rapidly among Neolithic populations in eastern Europe. When you appreciate the age and complexity of the tree, it's apparent that you can't make simple generalizations about haplogroups that are very old. For example, we have U5b1b1 migrating to eastern Europe probably in the late Mesolithic, and U5b1b1a originated in eastern Europe. Migrations were probably diverse and complex, and we need to look at individual subclades before we can say anything about geographic origins of migrations.

It is also important to look at the ages of haplogroups when you discuss their geographic origins. There are extremely rare subclades of U2 and U5 represented by a single sample that are at branch points older than the age of the entire haplogroup H. N* and H are not found in western European ancient remains until the Neolithic (although there are unpublished reports of H in Mesolithic Italy or Greece). So there is no evidence yet to support an origin of H in the southwestern European Mesolithic.

GailT
11-22-2014, 04:53 AM
I don't see any Mesolithic western U5a at Jean's site. It's all eastern or central.

I'm not sure how much of a distinction we should in the Mesolithic between Germany as central and France as western Europe. I assume hunter-gatherers ranged over a large area. Maybe the distinction of Iberia versus the Balkans is significant. In this context I think of eastern Europe as Ukraine and the Steppe.

J Man
11-22-2014, 11:08 AM
How late? I think Brandt et al are talking about clearly Mesolithic mtDNA profiles without the possibility of later introgression.

Narva Culture Lithuania Kretuonas [3] M 4450 BC U5b 16192T, 16270T, +12308 HinfI, 14793A Bramanti 2009; Brandt 2013

Narva Culture Lithuania Kretuonas [1] F 4200 BC U5b 16192T, 16270T, +12308 HinfI, 14793A
Bramanti 2009; Brandt 2013

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

rms2
11-22-2014, 12:10 PM
It does seem odd, if U5a came out of the FC Ice Age Refuge, that thus far no Mesolithic or older U5a has been recovered farther west than the Blätterhöhle in NW Germany, but plenty of it has been recovered from Mesolithic remains much farther east.

I realize hunter-gatherers covered a lot of ground, and it is possible to walk from Moscow to the English Channel in a single summer, but it does seem that Mesolithic U5a prevails in the East, while Mesolithic U5b prevails in the West.

Krefter
11-22-2014, 03:25 PM
If someone sampled Dolni Vestonice-14 and 15(U5*'s from pre-LGM Europe) like they did K-14, we'd probably get more insight into the origin of U5. U5 originated in a WHG-ANE-K 14 related people, and maybe U5a and U5b split before splits in that clade. It's flawful to see it as a WHG-clade. Instead specific U5 clades should be seen as WHG and ANE, or whatever. Like me and J-Man's U5 is WHG and rms2 and GailT's is probably eastern and non-WHG.

J Man
11-22-2014, 05:18 PM
If someone sampled Dolni Vestonice-14 and 15(U5*'s from pre-LGM Europe) like they did K-14, we'd probably get more insight into the origin of U5. U5 originated in a WHG-ANE-K 14 related people, and maybe U5a and U5b split before splits in that clade. It's flawful to see it as a WHG-clade. Instead specific U5 clades should be seen as WHG and ANE, or whatever. Like me and J-Man's U5 is WHG and rms2 and GailT's is probably eastern and non-WHG.

This sample from Neolithic Hungary is very Neolithic Mediterranean like genetically even though her mtDNA haplogroup is U5b2c which is similar to La Brana as you know he was U5b2c1. I suppose that even though the vast majority of her recent ancestors were Neolithic farmers maybe her direct maternal line ancestor was a European Mesolithic hunter-gatherer.

LP Hungary Polgar-Ferenci-hat [NE1] F 5310-5070 BC U5b2c 73G, 150T, 263G, 309.1C, 310C, 723G, 750G, 960.1C, 1438G, 1721T, 2706G, 3197C, 4769G, 7028T, 7768G, 8860G, 9477A, 11467G, 11719A, 12308G, 12372A, 13017G, 13617C, 13637G, 14182C, 14766T, 15326G, 16189C, 16270T Gamba 2014

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml

rms2
11-22-2014, 07:18 PM
If someone sampled Dolni Vestonice-14 and 15(U5*'s from pre-LGM Europe) like they did K-14, we'd probably get more insight into the origin of U5. U5 originated in a WHG-ANE-K 14 related people, and maybe U5a and U5b split before splits in that clade. It's flawful to see it as a WHG-clade. Instead specific U5 clades should be seen as WHG and ANE, or whatever. Like me and J-Man's U5 is WHG and rms2 and GailT's is probably eastern and non-WHG.

Jean has Dolni Vestonice 14 and 15 listed as just plain U, although I see they have 16192, 16270, which should make them U5 (although I am weak when it comes to mtDNA stuff): http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/palaeolithicdna.shtml.

Are we sure they are U5*? That is pretty important, since Dolni Vestonice is in the Czech Republic and those remains are pretty doggoned old (circa 29000 BC).

Thanks for that post, btw.

J Man
11-22-2014, 07:28 PM
Jean has Dolni Vestonice 14 and 15 listed as just plain U, although I see they have 16192, 16270, which should make them U5 (although I am weak when it comes to mtDNA stuff): http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/palaeolithicdna.shtml.

Are we sure they are U5*? That is pretty important, since Dolni Vestonice is in the Czech Republic and those remains are pretty doggoned old (circa 29000 BC).

Thanks for that post, btw.

I believe they may be pre-U5 types. That is they were people who had mtDNA lineages that were of types leading to modern U5 types.

rms2
11-22-2014, 07:31 PM
I believe they may be pre-U5 types. That is they were people who had mtDNA lineages that were of types leading to modern U5 types.

Maybe a basal U5*? I have to once again confess that I don't usually follow mtDNA stuff. I usually focus on y-dna, but this Brandt et al paper caught my attention, for one thing because ancient dna is just so fascinating.

Shouldn't 16192, 16270 make them U5*?

Krefter
11-22-2014, 10:16 PM
Jean has Dolni Vestonice 14 and 15 listed as just plain U, although I see they have 16192, 16270, which should make them U5 (although I am weak when it comes to mtDNA stuff): http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/palaeolithicdna.shtml.

Are we sure they are U5*? That is pretty important, since Dolni Vestonice is in the Czech Republic and those remains are pretty doggoned old (circa 29000 BC).

Thanks for that post, btw.

Yes we know they are U5 because they're FMS samples and don't fit in any U clades except U5. They are missing a few CR mutations all modern U5 have, and lack both U5a and U5b mutations, which is why they're called U5*.

Phylotree changed their whole U-tree because of the Dolni samples.

U5 was given subclade U5a'b(with CR mutations Dolni lacked), which is the motherclade of U5a and U5b. Phylotree also has the U Clade U8c, because that's what Dolni 13 had, but no modern U8c's have been sampled yet. MA-1 and K-14 should be given they're own U clades, because like Dolni 13 they belonged to now extinct U clades.

GailT
11-23-2014, 04:05 AM
Jean has Dolni Vestonice 14 and 15 listed as just plain U, although I see they have 16192, 16270, which should make them U5.

Mannis revised Phylotree based on those two samples to define U5 as C16192T C16270T. They didn't have any extra mutations so they are just plain U5 with no star. All other U5 samples are now included under U5a'b defined by T3197C G9477A T13617C.

I'd like to have more than the two ancient samples to determine if the phylogeny is correct, but it's the best estimate we currently have.

GailT
11-23-2014, 04:08 AM
MA-1 and K-14 should be given they're own U clades, because like Dolni 13 they belonged to now extinct U clades.

Yeah, K-14 could be given a new subclade label U2f.

Krefter
11-23-2014, 04:32 AM
Yeah, K-14 could be given a new subclade label U2f.

What do you think of Felix's calls for Y DNA and mtDNA hgs of ancient genomes? So many of them are radically different from the original studies.

http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html

rms2
11-23-2014, 01:02 PM
Well, this is certainly a fascinating topic. If anything could get me interested in mtDNA, it's ancient dna studies.

J Man
11-23-2014, 01:58 PM
What do you think of Felix's calls for Y DNA and mtDNA hgs of ancient genomes? So many of them are radically different from the original studies.

http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html

I corresponded with Felix about him having Ajvide59's mtDNA haplogroup listed as U5b2c1 and here is his reply to me.

''There are a lot of SNPs not in the tree. I can be absolutely sure he belongs to 'U' but cannot confirm U5b2c1 to be 100% correct. Having said that, U5b2c1 has the most mutations on the tree and also a mutation positive for U5b2c1. This is why, I mentioned U5b2c1. But if you look at the SNPs, there are more than 49 mutations not on the tree. Hence, G185A could even be a back mutation. I had pasted the complete mutations and how it fits the tree below.

Haplogroup Report for mtDNA
User Entered Markers: G101A,C146T,C150T,C152T,G185A,G187A,C195T,C222T,A2 47G,C433T,C434T,A769G,A825T,G887A,A1018G,C1696T,C2 259T,A2274G,A2723G,G2860A,G2876A,C2885T,G2932A,G29 34A,G3063A,G3075A,C3453T,C3603T,C3691T,T4312C,C493 2T,C4942T,G4974A,C5847T,G6460A,C6540T,G6610A,T7256 C,G9055A,G9645A,G10398A,C10476T,C10810T,C10873T,C1 1247T,C11315T,A11467G,G12054A,A12308G,C12363T,G123 72A,A12373G,C12465T,C12614T,T12705C,G13105A,G13276 A,C13438T,C13442T,C14105T,C14109T,C14112T,T15747C, C15913T,T16223C,G16230A,C16270T,T16278C,G16303A,G1 6370A,G16373A,G16384A,T16448C
Best Identified Haplogroups
Haplogroup U5b2c1
♀ Eve
⇨ L1'2'3'4'5'6 (C146T,C182T,T4312C,T10664C,C10915T,A11914G,G13276 A,G16230A)
⇨ L2'3'4'5'6 (C152T,A2758G,C2885T,G7146A,T8468C)
⇨ L2'3'4'6 (C195T,A247G,A825t,T8655C,A10688G,C10810T,G13105A, T13506C,G15301A,A16129G,T16187C,C16189T)
⇨ L3'4 (T182C!,T3594C,T7256C,T13650C,T16278C)
⇨ L3 (A769G,A1018G,C16311T)
⇨ N (G8701A,C9540T,G10398A,C10873T,A15301G!)
⇨ R (T12705C,T16223C)
⇨ U (A11467G,A12308G,G12372A)
⇨ U5 (T3197C,G9477A,T13617C,C16192T,C16270T)
⇨ U5b (C150T,A7768G,T14182C)
⇨ U5b2c1 (G185A,C6920a,A13434G)
Matches on Tree (24) : C146T C150T C152T G185A C195T A247G A769G A1018G C2885T T4312C T7256C G10398A C10810T C10873T A11467G A12308G G12372A T12705C G13105A G13276A T16223C G16230A C16270T T16278C
Mismatches/Extras (49) : G101A G187A C222T C433T C434T A825T G887A C1696T C2259T A2274G A2723G G2860A G2876A G2932A G2934A G3063A G3075A C3453T C3603T C3691T C4932T C4942T G4974A C5847T G6460A C6540T G6610A G9055A G9645A C10476TC11247T C11315T G12054A C12363T A12373G C12465T C12614T C13438T C13442T C14105T C14109T C14112T T15747C C15913T G16303A G16370A G16373A G16384A T16448C
Other Possible Haplogroups
Haplogroup U5b
♀ Eve
⇨ L1'2'3'4'5'6 (C146T,C182T,T4312C,T10664C,C10915T,A11914G,G13276 A,G16230A)
⇨ L2'3'4'5'6 (C152T,A2758G,C2885T,G7146A,T8468C)
⇨ L2'3'4'6 (C195T,A247G,A825t,T8655C,A10688G,C10810T,G13105A, T13506C,G15301A,A16129G,T16187C,C16189T)
⇨ L3'4 (T182C!,T3594C,T7256C,T13650C,T16278C)
⇨ L3 (A769G,A1018G,C16311T)
⇨ N (G8701A,C9540T,G10398A,C10873T,A15301G!)
⇨ R (T12705C,T16223C)
⇨ U (A11467G,A12308G,G12372A)
⇨ U5 (T3197C,G9477A,T13617C,C16192T,C16270T)
⇨ U5b (C150T,A7768G,T14182C)
Matches on Tree (23) : C146T C150T C152T C195T A247G A769G A1018G C2885T T4312C T7256C G10398A C10810T C10873T A11467G A12308G G12372A T12705C G13105A G13276A T16223C G16230A C16270T T16278C
Mismatches/Extras (50) : G101A G185A G187A C222T C433T C434T A825T G887A C1696T C2259T A2274G A2723G G2860A G2876A G2932A G2934A G3063A G3075A C3453T C3603T C3691T C4932T C4942T G4974A C5847T G6460A C6540T G6610A G9055A G9645AC10476T C11247T C11315T G12054A C12363T A12373G C12465T C12614T C13438T C13442T C14105T C14109T C14112T T15747C C15913T G16303A G16370A G16373A G16384A T16448C
Haplogroup NoLabel
♀ Eve
⇨ L1'2'3'4'5'6 (C146T,C182T,T4312C,T10664C,C10915T,A11914G,G13276 A,G16230A)
⇨ L2'3'4'5'6 (C152T,A2758G,C2885T,G7146A,T8468C)
⇨ L2'3'4'6 (C195T,A247G,A825t,T8655C,A10688G,C10810T,G13105A, T13506C,G15301A,A16129G,T16187C,C16189T)
⇨ L3'4 (T182C!,T3594C,T7256C,T13650C,T16278C)
⇨ L3 (A769G,A1018G,C16311T)
⇨ N (G8701A,C9540T,G10398A,C10873T,A15301G!)
⇨ R (T12705C,T16223C)
⇨ U (A11467G,A12308G,G12372A)
⇨ U8b (A3480G,G9055A,C14167T)
⇨ (C150T)
Matches on Tree (23) : C146T C150T C152T C195T A247G A769G A1018G C2885T T4312C T7256C G9055A G10398A C10810T C10873T A11467G A12308G G12372A T12705C G13105A G13276A T16223C G16230A T16278C
Mismatches/Extras (50) : G101A G185A G187A C222T C433T C434T A825T G887A C1696T C2259T A2274G A2723G G2860A G2876A G2932A G2934A G3063A G3075A C3453T C3603T C3691T C4932T C4942T G4974A C5847T G6460A C6540T G6610A G9645A C10476TC11247T C11315T G12054A C12363T A12373G C12465T C12614T C13438T C13442T C14105T C14109T C14112T T15747C C15913T C16270T G16303A G16370A G16373A G16384A T16448C
Haplogroup U5a1b1c
♀ Eve
⇨ L1'2'3'4'5'6 (C146T,C182T,T4312C,T10664C,C10915T,A11914G,G13276 A,G16230A)
⇨ L2'3'4'5'6 (C152T,A2758G,C2885T,G7146A,T8468C)
⇨ L2'3'4'6 (C195T,A247G,A825t,T8655C,A10688G,C10810T,G13105A, T13506C,G15301A,A16129G,T16187C,C16189T)
⇨ L3'4 (T182C!,T3594C,T7256C,T13650C,T16278C)
⇨ L3 (A769G,A1018G,C16311T)
⇨ N (G8701A,C9540T,G10398A,C10873T,A15301G!)
⇨ R (T12705C,T16223C)
⇨ U (A11467G,A12308G,G12372A)
⇨ U5 (T3197C,G9477A,T13617C,C16192T,C16270T)
⇨ U5a1b1c (G9055A)
Matches on Tree (23) : C146T C152T C195T A247G A769G A1018G C2885T T4312C T7256C G9055A G10398A C10810T C10873T A11467G A12308G G12372A T12705C G13105A G13276A T16223C G16230A C16270T T16278C
Mismatches/Extras (50) : G101A C150T G185A G187A C222T C433T C434T A825T G887A C1696T C2259T A2274G A2723G G2860A G2876A G2932A G2934A G3063A G3075A C3453T C3603T C3691T C4932T C4942T G4974A C5847T G6460A C6540T G6610A G9645AC10476T C11247T C11315T G12054A C12363T A12373G C12465T C12614T C13438T C13442T C14105T C14109T C14112T T15747C C15913T G16303A G16370A G16373A G16384A T16448C
Haplogroup U5a1a1d
♀ Eve
⇨ L1'2'3'4'5'6 (C146T,C182T,T4312C,T10664C,C10915T,A11914G,G13276 A,G16230A)
⇨ L2'3'4'5'6 (C152T,A2758G,C2885T,G7146A,T8468C)
⇨ L2'3'4'6 (C195T,A247G,A825t,T8655C,A10688G,C10810T,G13105A, T13506C,G15301A,A16129G,T16187C,C16189T)
⇨ L3'4 (T182C!,T3594C,T7256C,T13650C,T16278C)
⇨ L3 (A769G,A1018G,C16311T)
⇨ N (G8701A,C9540T,G10398A,C10873T,A15301G!)
⇨ R (T12705C,T16223C)
⇨ U (A11467G,A12308G,G12372A)
⇨ U5 (T3197C,G9477A,T13617C,C16192T,C16270T)
⇨ U5a1a1d (G185A,T204C)
Matches on Tree (23) : C146T C152T G185A C195T A247G A769G A1018G C2885T T4312C T7256C G10398A C10810T C10873T A11467G A12308G G12372A T12705C G13105A G13276A T16223C G16230A C16270T T16278C
Mismatches/Extras (50) : G101A C150T G187A C222T C433T C434T A825T G887A C1696T C2259T A2274G A2723G G2860A G2876A G2932A G2934A G3063A G3075A C3453T C3603T C3691T C4932T C4942T G4974A C5847T G6460A C6540T G6610A G9055A G9645AC10476T C11247T C11315T G12054A C12363T A12373G C12465T C12614T C13438T C13442T C14105T C14109T C14112T T15747C C15913T G16303A G16370A G16373A G16384A T16448C
Haplogroup U5a1h
♀ Eve
⇨ L1'2'3'4'5'6 (C146T,C182T,T4312C,T10664C,C10915T,A11914G,G13276 A,G16230A)
⇨ L2'3'4'5'6 (C152T,A2758G,C2885T,G7146A,T8468C)
⇨ L2'3'4'6 (C195T,A247G,A825t,T8655C,A10688G,C10810T,G13105A, T13506C,G15301A,A16129G,T16187C,C16189T)
⇨ L3'4 (T182C!,T3594C,T7256C,T13650C,T16278C)
⇨ L3 (A769G,A1018G,C16311T)
⇨ N (G8701A,C9540T,G10398A,C10873T,A15301G!)
⇨ R (T12705C,T16223C)
⇨ U (A11467G,A12308G,G12372A)
⇨ U5 (T3197C,G9477A,T13617C,C16192T,C16270T)
⇨ U5a1h (C150T,G1303A,C3192T,G3591A,T4592C,C11296T,C11938T ,G12618A,C16239T)
Matches on Tree (23) : C146T C150T C152T C195T A247G A769G A1018G C2885T T4312C T7256C G10398A C10810T C10873T A11467G A12308G G12372A T12705C G13105A G13276A T16223C G16230A C16270T T16278C
Mismatches/Extras (50) : G101A G185A G187A C222T C433T C434T A825T G887A C1696T C2259T A2274G A2723G G2860A G2876A G2932A G2934A G3063A G3075A C3453T C3603T C3691T C4932T C4942T G4974A C5847T G6460A C6540T G6610A G9055A G9645AC10476T C11247T C11315T G12054A C12363T A12373G C12465T C12614T C13438T C13442T C14105T C14109T C14112T T15747C C15913T G16303A G16370A G16373A G16384A T16448C
Haplogroup K3
♀ Eve
⇨ L1'2'3'4'5'6 (C146T,C182T,T4312C,T10664C,C10915T,A11914G,G13276 A,G16230A)
⇨ L2'3'4'5'6 (C152T,A2758G,C2885T,G7146A,T8468C)
⇨ L2'3'4'6 (C195T,A247G,A825t,T8655C,A10688G,C10810T,G13105A, T13506C,G15301A,A16129G,T16187C,C16189T)
⇨ L3'4 (T182C!,T3594C,T7256C,T13650C,T16278C)
⇨ L3 (A769G,A1018G,C16311T)
⇨ N (G8701A,C9540T,G10398A,C10873T,A15301G!)
⇨ R (T12705C,T16223C)
⇨ U (A11467G,A12308G,G12372A)
⇨ U8b (A3480G,G9055A,C14167T)
⇨ K3 (C150T,T195C!,A235G,C560T,T7657C,A8188G,A9852t,T14 212C,T16093C,C16148T,G16153A)
Matches on Tree (23) : C146T C150T C152T C195T A247G A769G A1018G C2885T T4312C T7256C G9055A G10398A C10810T C10873T A11467G A12308G G12372A T12705C G13105A G13276A T16223C G16230A T16278C
Mismatches/Extras (50) : G101A G185A G187A C222T C433T C434T A825T G887A C1696T C2259T A2274G A2723G G2860A G2876A G2932A G2934A G3063A G3075A C3453T C3603T C3691T C4932T C4942T G4974A C5847T G6460A C6540T G6610A G9645A C10476TC11247T C11315T G12054A C12363T A12373G C12465T C12614T C13438T C13442T C14105T C14109T C14112T T15747C C15913T C16270T G16303A G16370A G16373A G16384A T16448C
Haplogroup K2b1a
♀ Eve
⇨ L1'2'3'4'5'6 (C146T,C182T,T4312C,T10664C,C10915T,A11914G,G13276 A,G16230A)
⇨ L2'3'4'5'6 (C152T,A2758G,C2885T,G7146A,T8468C)
⇨ L2'3'4'6 (C195T,A247G,A825t,T8655C,A10688G,C10810T,G13105A, T13506C,G15301A,A16129G,T16187C,C16189T)
⇨ L3'4 (T182C!,T3594C,T7256C,T13650C,T16278C)
⇨ L3 (A769G,A1018G,C16311T)
⇨ N (G8701A,C9540T,G10398A,C10873T,A15301G!)
⇨ R (T12705C,T16223C)
⇨ U (A11467G,A12308G,G12372A)
⇨ U8b (A3480G,G9055A,C14167T)
⇨ K2b1a (C16270T)
Matches on Tree (23) : C146T C152T C195T A247G A769G A1018G C2885T T4312C T7256C G9055A G10398A C10810T C10873T A11467G A12308G G12372A T12705C G13105A G13276A T16223C G16230A C16270T T16278C
Mismatches/Extras (50) : G101A C150T G185A G187A C222T C433T C434T A825T G887A C1696T C2259T A2274G A2723G G2860A G2876A G2932A G2934A G3063A G3075A C3453T C3603T C3691T C4932T C4942T G4974A C5847T G6460A C6540T G6610A G9645AC10476T C11247T C11315T G12054A C12363T A12373G C12465T C12614T C13438T C13442T C14105T C14109T C14112T T15747C C15913T G16303A G16370A G16373A G16384A T16448C

Note: The mutations 309.1C(C), 315.1C, AC indels at 515-522, 16182C, 16183C, 16193.1C(C) and 16519 were not considered for phylogenetic reconstruction and are therefore excluded from the tree.

Generated on Tuesday, 4 November 2014 at 12:29:17 PM by My mtDNA Tree


Best Regards,
Felix Chandrakumar''

GailT
11-23-2014, 05:21 PM
What do you think of Felix's calls for Y DNA and mtDNA hgs of ancient genomes? So many of them are radically different from the original studies.

I don't think he is a reliable source. Check the archives on the FTDNA discussion board (http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=33726&page=4), where Felix claimed that if you roll a die 6 times, there is a 100% probability that you will you a six. He also claimed to have proved that apes and humans do not share a common ancestor (http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=34052&page=3). He's a good programmer, but I question his analytical skill.

GailT
11-25-2014, 06:09 AM
There are 23 new U5 FMS sequences from Portugal available from the Marques et al. paper (thanks to a forum member who shared the supplement with me). None of the samples are very far outside of the variation in the project.

The most interesting two samples are:

U5a1* sample that shares 1 of its extra mutations (14145G) with two samples from Tyrol.
U5b1* sample that is a shares several extra mutations with project member from England.

Also, two U5b1f1 samples that are a close match to a project member from Portugal.
And two U5b1c* lineages (3 samples) that confirm a south western European origin for U5b1c.

Krefter
11-25-2014, 08:05 AM
GailT does SW Europe have any U5b2a? Are there major regional differences in the clade distribution of U5b?

GailT
11-26-2014, 03:09 AM
GailT does SW Europe have any U5b2a? Are there major regional differences in the clade distribution of U5b?

U5b2a has 6 named subclades and two unnamed subclades that are each represented by a single sample from Spain:
DQ156210 and Z120 from the Ramos et al. study. I think U5b2a samples are more generally found in central and northern Europe rather than Iberia. Some subclades appear to have traveled farther east. For examples, U5b2a1a2 has several samples from northern Europe and also Spain, Russia, Siberia, India and Iran. Perhaps this is another group that expanded into eastern Europe during the Mesolithic and then returned to Europe with migrations of that brought Indo-European languages to Europe.

J Man
11-29-2014, 05:13 PM
U5b2a has 6 named subclades and two unnamed subclades that are each represented by a single sample from Spain:
DQ156210 and Z120 from the Ramos et al. study. I think U5b2a samples are more generally found in central and northern Europe rather than Iberia. Some subclades appear to have traveled farther east. For examples, U5b2a1a2 has several samples from northern Europe and also Spain, Russia, Siberia, India and Iran. Perhaps this is another group that expanded into eastern Europe during the Mesolithic and then returned to Europe with migrations of that brought Indo-European languages to Europe.

I am curious Gail as to what you think about he origins of this sample from the Gamba 2014 study.

ALP Hungary Polgar-Ferenci-hat [NE1] F 5310-5070 BC U5b2c 73G, 150T, 263G, 309.1C, 310C, 723G, 750G, 960.1C, 1438G, 1721T, 2706G, 3197C, 4769G, 7028T, 7768G, 8860G, 9477A, 11467G, 11719A, 12308G, 12372A, 13017G, 13617C, 13637G, 14182C, 14766T, 15326G, 16189C, 16270T

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml

She is called NE1 in the paper and her autosomal DNA is very Neolithic Mediterranean like even though her mtDNA haplogroup is U5b2c. I am thinking that her mtDNA haplogroup U5b2c ancestress was probably an indigenous European Mesolithic hunter-gatherer who was assimilated into a early Balkan or Hungarian Neolithic farmer society. What do you think?

GailT
11-30-2014, 06:36 AM
I am curious Gail as to what you think about he origins of this sample from the Gamba 2014 study. She is called NE1 in the paper and her autosomal DNA is very Neolithic Mediterranean like even though her mtDNA haplogroup is U5b2c. I am thinking that her mtDNA haplogroup U5b2c ancestress was probably an indigenous European Mesolithic hunter-gatherer who was assimilated into a early Balkan or Hungarian Neolithic farmer society. What do you think?


I don't any insights on this sample. I think your theory is likely correct.