Wales and Scotland: news for L513?

[Jon]

Hi All,

I stumbled today over the latest installment of Britains/Scotlands/Wales DNA's publicity work. The last one, a project investigating the differences between east and west Scotland DNA, focused perhaps understandably on M222.

This latest offering talks of a DNA link between Wales and Scotland - one which would perhaps add credence to the presence of L513 in all regions as evidence of ancient Briton (Brythonic-speaking) populations; in SW Scotland, as the Kingdom of Strathclyde, for example.

The problem is that the article claims that the nobility of Strathclyde were Pictish (news to me?), and that when they were hounded out of the south of Scotland by other groups, they fled to Wales (that much is documented). So the BISDNA people seem to be using this to claim that the discovery of 'their' Pictish DNA types in Wales is genetic evidence for the flight of the Strathclyde Britons...

...I have often had a strong suspicion that Strathclyde might feature heavily in our L513 heritage. Which is why I was always confused about the apparent absence of L193 (the most obvious candidate within L513 for Strathclyde) in Wales. It still, to me, seems stubbornly and exclusively Scottish. Which was leading me towards perhaps Pictish or otherwise indigenous Scots origins for L193.

The article hints at more linkages between Wales and Scotland to come. I'm intrigued at the very least. Here it is:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/dna-links-welsh-men-to-scotland.25940509

Jon

[rms2]

I think they're talking about L1335, aka S530, which is common in Scotland but was found a year or two ago in a group with Welsh surnames.

[Jon]

I see, thanks. I must say, I've never heard Picts suggested as the overlords of Strathclyde before. If that's true, it might explain why L193 is also found in Perthshire and further north, in the old Pictland, and not just in the south. After all, I guess the Picts as a people would have had more than just one DNA type.

[Dubhthach]

That article suffers a serious case of "1+1=5"

[rms2]

I see, thanks. I must say, I've never heard Picts suggested as the overlords of Strathclyde before. If that's true, it might explain why L193 is also found in Perthshire and further north, in the old Pictland, and not just in the south. After all, I guess the Picts as a people would have had more than just one DNA type.

Actually, I think that is incorrect. Picts weren't in charge in Strathclyde. Northern Britons were. If I recall correctly, Strathclyde, particularly Dumbarton and the Alt Clut, was an outpost of northern Britons posted there by the Romans as a protective buffer against the incursions of the Picts.

[Jon]

That's certainly what I was aware of: Strathclyders were north Britons. Having said that, there is a lot of discussion about how the Picts were possibly simply Brittonic tribes living further north: the name Pictii after all, referring to their traditional tattoos, was also applied to other Brittonic tribes. It's such a shame that no linguistic traces of them remain. I have never ever heard before of Picts being the rulers of the Strathclyde Britons. If it's incorrect, it's a fairly major boob by the BISDNA guys, especially in the light of recent controversy over their approach.

[jwh150]

I am new to Anthrogenica and may be asking a question whose answer is well-known, but what is the support for claims that were made on a Yahoo discussion forum about two years ago that a cluster of L1335 men has been found in Wales and, more interestingly, that they can be shown through genealogical records to be descended from Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd, and through him to Cunedda and the Votadini? I would be grateful if you could point me to any data to support that.

[jwh150]

I am new to Anthrogenica and may be asking a question whose answer is well-known, but what is the support for claims that were made on a Yahoo discussion forum about two years ago that a cluster of L1335 men has been found in Wales and, more interestingly, that they can be shown through genealogical records to be descended from Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd, and through him to Cunedda and the Votadini? I would be grateful if you could point me to any data to support that.

(sorry if you get this twice, as I am a really new user of this site.)

[TigerMW]

I am new to Anthrogenica and may be asking a question whose answer is well-known, but what is the support for claims that were made on a Yahoo discussion forum about two years ago that a cluster of L1335 men has been found in Wales and, more interestingly, that they can be shown through genealogical records to be descended from Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd, and through him to Cunedda and the Votadini? I would be grateful if you could point me to any data to support that.

(sorry if you get this twice, as I am a really new user of this site.)

JWH, the vast majority of L1335 men today are L1065 and fall into what is called the Scots Modal because of their STRs. Ironically, some, such as BritainsDNA, think they are more associated with the Pictish people than the old Scotti of Ireland.

There is one other early branch from L1335 that we know of that is not L1065. Those people fall into the Wales II Modal STR folks. The Price's (ap Rice / Rhys, etc.) are a part of this group of non L1065.

I don't know but it fits nicely with the Wales lore of "Men from the North" coming into Wales to establish a royal lineage.

I don't think that has much to do with L513, though, other than L513 also sits along the fringes, just outside of old Romano-Britain as well as over in Ireland.