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miiser
12-13-2014, 01:43 PM
The DNA evidence is not yet conclusive by any means, but I just sent this information to my Curley surname project. It's an interesting example of genetic genealogy helping to solve a surname origin mystery, so I decided to repost it here on Anthrogenica for anyone interested.

The traditional story, apparently started by Patrick Woulfe in his book of Irish surnames, is that the Curley surname derives from MacThoirdealbaigh. I've never been convinced by this theory, as it's not supported by the records. I've come up with a new theory based on extensive research of documentation and DNA evidence which seems to be fully consistent with both the historic documentation and DNA evidence.

For some time I've been aware that there are some native Irish Curleys who use the Irish spelling "Mac Oirealla" for their name. Up until recently, I've never given this name spelling much consideration, assuming it was possibly just a modern phonetic translation into Irish from the English version of the name. But there are some very interesting patterns regarding this version of the name that demand closer consideration.

Oirealla is a spelling variation of the 8th century kingdom of Airgialla, which was roughly located in the modern counties of Louth, Monaghan, Armagh, Fermanagh, Tyrone, and Derry. For more information on the Airgialla kingdom, see this wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airg%C3%ADalla

Consider the earliest recorded English spellings of the Irish Curley family from the 16th century, documented in the Irish fiants of 1587: MicKurylly and M'Kirilie. Phonetically, these names are closer to MacOirealla than to MacThoirdealbaigh or its common English translation of MacTurlough.

Griffith's Valuation reveals a concentration of Curleys in counties Louth and Monaghan, spreading inland from the city of Dundalk, as you can see on the map I have on our website:
http://curleysurname.weebly.com/irish.html

This population lies neatly within the kingdom of Airgialla. The Airgialla kingdom is said to have originated from the Three Collas, ancient kings of Ireland. The history and geographic distribution of the Airgialla kingdom is closely tied to that of the Three Collas.

FTDNA has a project called "Clan Colla". Members of this group have surnames and a geographic distribution that correlate with the descendants of the Three Collas. This lineage is believed to represent descendants of the Three Collas. The STRs of this group look like a possible match to one of our Irish Curley genetic groups.

Our project currently has 3 genetic groups with lineages that trace to Irish Curleys. It is probable that one of these groups has an intact lineage descending from the surname progenitor, while the other two groups have been affected by non paternal events. This sort of fragmentation is typical of surname lineages which are hundreds of years old. Of these three genetic groups, one of them looks like a possible match to the Collas. This group is labelled as "Irish Curley 2 - Roscommon/Westmeath". This group currently has only 1 member, with a 37 marker Y-DNA test, although I'm aware that there are autosomal matches to at least two other Irish Curleys. One of these matches is a new member of our project, with a 111 marker Y-DNA test currently in progress.

I've heard oral traditions that the Roscommon/Galway/Westmeath Curleys were originally from the north, and moved south when their land was confiscated during the Plantations. This story corresponds very neatly with the population distribution we see for the Curley name. The small population cluster in the north near Dundalk reflects the original location of the family. The larger populations around Athlone and westward into Galway reflect those members of the family that were forced from their homes and resettled in the south.

So, to summarize my theory: the Curley name derives from the ancient kingdom of Airgialla, with a more modern spelling of Oirealla. Our DNA group "Irish Curley 2" may be descendants of this ancient lineage, related to the Three Collas. The other two Irish Curley lineages probably share the same name lineage, but the genetic lineages have been broken by non paternal events.

Test results of our new project member may help confirm a connection to the Collas. Please keep in mind that this theory is brand new, and hasn't had any time yet to be nit picked and torn to pieces. So it will need some time to settle and be confirmed or rejected. But right now I feel very good about it, and it's my leading theory by a wide margin. Of all the various theories regarding the family origin, this is the first one that I'm comfortable with. Unlike previous theories, this one is fully consistent with all the historic documentation and genetic evidence.

To help confirm this theory, it would be great to have a DNA test from a Curley of the Louth or Monaghan area. If anyone has any connection to such a Curley, please send them my way. I'll sponsor a 111 marker test for any Curleys that are native to this area. If we get a DNA match from this area to our current "Irish Curleys 2" group, that would be strong evidence in support of the theory.

Please note that the project webpage is not yet fully updated with this new information. I'll be updating it as soon as possible.

AncientCelt
12-14-2014, 06:48 PM
FTDNA has a project called "Clan Colla". Members of this group have surnames and a geographic distribution that correlate with the descendants of the Three Collas. This lineage is believed to represent descendants of the Three Collas. The STRs of this group look like a possible match to one of our Irish Curley genetic groups.

Regarding said strs - DYS389I = 15, not a single person in the Clan Colla public has this value, I went fast but I think I am correct here
DYS389II = 31, not a single person in the Clan Colla public project has this value.
DYS437 = 16, not a single person in the Clan Colla public project has this value.
DYS449 = 30, not a single person in the Clan Colla public project has this value.
DYS464a - DYS464d = 14,15,17,18, not a single person in the Clan Colla public project has these values.

I don't understand how or why you didn't consider these facts but I'll leave it at that. I do however have a concern about anyone saying DNA evidence supports a hypothesis when in fact at least currently it does not appear to. That is the main part of this hypothesis I have serious concerns about, one does not in any way support the other, not yet at least. **!! Editing post here**!!, siren going off, I missed one:
DYS438 = 11 NOT A SINGLE PERSON in the Clan Colla public project HAS THIS VALUE.

That's a heck of a lot of strs that not a single person in the project has, especially when only tested out to 37 markers.

Dubhthach
12-15-2014, 10:23 AM
In Irish th is pronounced completely differently from English, it's pronounced either as a /h/ or not prononunced in case at been at the end of the word.

This has been the case since about 1200.

Regarding the personal name: Toirdhealbhach (Tairrdelbach in middle Irish) it's worth nothing that word internal -dh- and -bh- are now silent in this name. As a result a reformed spelling version of the name would be Toirealach (Tarlach is also seen, though /r/ is broad instead of slender)

The genitive case of the name would though be Toirealaigh, which would be used in surname formation
eg:

Mac Toirealaigh
Mac Thoirealaigh

However it wouldn't surprise me if you see the same reduction you see with Flaherty under spelling reform namely:

Ó Flaithbheartaigh -> Ó Flaithearta/Ó Flatharta

in which case:
Mac Toirdhealbhaigh -> Mac Toireala
Mac Thoirdhealbhaigh -> Mac Thoireala

If you consider that th is often not pronounced in Irish (and when it is always as /h/) this would result in reduction to Mac Oireala

If you ask me the spelling mac Oirealla is thus probably a modernist spelling.

Leaving that aside there are multiple examples where the /k/ in mac (eg. c) is "attracted" to the "root name" during angliscation. One similiar example is the surname Kernan/McKernan



Mac THIGHEARNÁIN—IV—M'Kiernane, M'Kemane, MacKiernan, MacKernan, MacCarnon, MacHarnon, Kiernan, Kernan, Kernon, and, by translation, Lord; 'son of Tighearnán' (diminutive of 'tighearna,' a lord); the name (1) of a branch of the O'Connors in Co. Roscommon, who are descended from Tighearnán, grandson of Turlough Mor O'Connor, King of Ireland; (2) of a Breifney family, of the same stock as the O'Rourkes, who were formerly chiefs of Tellach Dhunchadha, now the barony of Tullyhunco, in the west of Co. Cavan; and (3) of a Fermanagh family, of the same stock as the Maguires, who were formerly chiefs of Clann Fearghaile. See Mac Tighearnáin.


In this case you have a surname that is "Mac Th..." the "Th" is realised in the angliscation as either /h/ or is deleted thence macHarnon vs. McKiernan/McKernan etc.

This attraction of /k/ occurs when the first phoneme in the name element starts with a vowel, another very good example is:
Mac Aodh -> McKay/Mackey (ao is realised as either /e:/ or /i:/ depending on dialect)

Anyways Old Irish Aírgialla gives Early Modern Irish: Oirghialla

Under spelling reform introduced in 1940's/1950's this is reduced to Oirialla as word internal gh (-gh-) is not pronounced anymore in Modern Irish.

Oirialla is thus not a "spelling variation" but the correct spelling/pronunciation in modern Irish. (Late Modern Irish -- as some would call it)

The other thing I would suggest is that it's very rare to have a "kingdom name" included in an Irish surname, usually when this happens it's part of a compound name. For example "Cú Uladh" (Hound of Ulster) -> mac Conuladh, in other words "son of the man called "Cú Uladh""

Given the similar example of McKernan/McKiernan I'd be leaning towards Woulfe interpretation.

AncientCelt
12-15-2014, 03:16 PM
I just want to leave this in parting.

This is pure speculation on my part, as most of the things I type are, very little to back it up but bits and pieces of information however as much as I've been against a possible "Norman" origin for one of the Curley lineages, I'm considering the possibility. Originally we tacked this up possibly to native Irish adopting the Norman names but now, I'm leaning back away from this. It is hard to get away from many surnames under L1066 appearing to be of Norman origin however all of this falls in line with thoughts I've had for a while because it all ties back to the Fir Bolg or if not directly related, to the Britons. I think the Curley family in Ireland may actually be the descendants of the Norman Corlieu family, however, I don't think they were Normans, not in the Viking sense of Normans but possibly were Breton Knights that came over with the Normans. I can now reconcile the Z2534 connection L1066 shares with L226, and L226 clearly being native Irish. I believe at least 1/3 of the "Norman" army comprised groups such as Bretons and Flemish, etc. I think perhaps L1066 may represent part of the Breton component, or at least part of L1066 might. So, circling this back around to the Curley surname, I'm going to have to lean back to Corlieu as a possible origin. I guess I'd be ok with the progenitor being a Breton knight or part of the Breton army during the invasions. This might also explain the origins for Ballymcurley and Curley's Island, and the Curlew Mountains. There was obviously a family of importance in that area and maybe if someone could place Corlieus in that area, that might mean something....anyway, what is really needed is the results for a Corlieu descendant.

Dubhthach
12-15-2014, 03:39 PM
Ballymcurley = Baile Mhic Thorlaigh
Curlew Mountains = An Corrshliabh

As for Curley's island, it hardly existed when the 6" ordance survey map was done in the 1840's, been made up of three seperate islets, my feeling is the current shape derives from the navigation/drainage work carried out on the Shannon during the 1840's/1850's. In the 25" map from early 20th century it's marked as "liable to flood". Without some further evidence it's hard to say wether it's name is older than the mid 19th century.

AncientCelt
12-15-2014, 06:09 PM
Some pieces coming together now, still grasping but might be something...There was a Turstin FitzRolf who accompanied William the Conqueror. One Curley group has a 12 marker match to a Thurston male, Thurston not a common name ya see. However the key markers needed have not been tested. Second, this Turstin has a connection to Caerleon Castle and then we have a Curly who apparently appeared on the Abbey Battle Roll with a connection to Carleton Castle. I don't believe the YDNA haplotype for this "Norman" Curly family has yet been identified. Finally we have another 12 marker guy, Carlill, awaiting results, don't know how that might turn out but he has the somewhat uncommon markers in the first 12 that one Curley group has. The whole point of this is, even though there are multiple Curleys in the same area with different signatures, perhaps this is an explanation for one of them. I know it's just a bunch of possible interesting coincidences but, it might be starting to make some sense. Perhaps my Curley plaque is the correct one after all, for the Norman? I think it's very interesting there is a Curly listed on the Battle Rolls and then some of these other bits of information. We'll see what the future and more testing brings. We definitely know there are other Curleys/Kerleys, etc who may have other points of origin and since this thread was entitled for a possible Airgialla connection and the Collas, I promise this is my last post on this here, in this thread. I'll start my own thread when/if any more information becomes available.

Ok now I'm done, lunch break over.

miiser
12-16-2014, 06:00 AM
Under spelling reform introduced in 1940's/1950's this is reduced to Oirialla as word internal gh (-gh-) is not pronounced anymore in Modern Irish.



Publications of Keating's History of Ireland use the Oirealla spelling before this time.

I understand the phonetics of Mac Toirealaigh and Mac Thoirealaigh and agree with your interpretation regarding that. The problem I have with this as the origin of Curley is that, before Woulfe's book, both of these names are always translated into English as Turlough, Turlach, etc. Nowhere is there any record of Curley being considered the English equivalent of Mac Thoirealaigh until after Woulfe's book. So this is just as likely as any other Irish version of the name to be a modern invention. Indeed, moreso, as Woulfe crams some 20 or so names all into the same list as deriving from MacToirealaigh/MacThoirealaigh, and all these names are unlikely to derive from the same name. (And DNA evidence has demonstrated that they in fact do not.) It gives the impression that Woulfe may have been a bit lazy in this case, playing connect the dots between English and Irish names.

miiser
12-16-2014, 06:19 AM
Ballymcurley = Baile Mhic Thorlaigh
Curlew Mountains = An Corrshliabh

As for Curley's island, it hardly existed when the 6" ordance survey map was done in the 1840's, been made up of three seperate islets, my feeling is the current shape derives from the navigation/drainage work carried out on the Shannon during the 1840's/1850's. In the 25" map from early 20th century it's marked as "liable to flood". Without some further evidence it's hard to say wether it's name is older than the mid 19th century.

The Ordnance Survey Map was recorded in English, not Irish, and the name of the manor & townland is recorded as "Ballymacurly". So this unfortunately does not help establish an equivalence to any Irish name.

miiser
12-16-2014, 06:34 AM
As for Curley's island, it hardly existed when the 6" ordance survey map was done in the 1840's, been made up of three seperate islets, my feeling is the current shape derives from the navigation/drainage work carried out on the Shannon during the 1840's/1850's. In the 25" map from early 20th century it's marked as "liable to flood". Without some further evidence it's hard to say wether it's name is older than the mid 19th century.

Curley's Island, spelled just like that, is labelled on the 25" map but not the 6" map. I've found no evidence of it being so named before this time. Nowadays it is no longer an island, but more of a peninsula, connected to the shore on the west side. There's a ford at the location named “Snámh Dá Éan”, which roughly translates as "swim two birds", suggesting the possibility of a name connection to the curlew bird, which is common to the wetlands of this area.

miiser
12-16-2014, 08:05 AM
In Irish th is pronounced completely differently from English, it's pronounced either as a /h/ or not prononunced in case at been at the end of the word.

This has been the case since about 1200.

Regarding the personal name: Toirdhealbhach (Tairrdelbach in middle Irish) it's worth nothing that word internal -dh- and -bh- are now silent in this name. As a result a reformed spelling version of the name would be Toirealach (Tarlach is also seen, though /r/ is broad instead of slender)

The genitive case of the name would though be Toirealaigh, which would be used in surname formation
eg:

Mac Toirealaigh
Mac Thoirealaigh

However it wouldn't surprise me if you see the same reduction you see with Flaherty under spelling reform namely:

Ó Flaithbheartaigh -> Ó Flaithearta/Ó Flatharta

in which case:
Mac Toirdhealbhaigh -> Mac Toireala
Mac Thoirdhealbhaigh -> Mac Thoireala

If you consider that th is often not pronounced in Irish (and when it is always as /h/) this would result in reduction to Mac Oireala

If you ask me the spelling mac Oirealla is thus probably a modernist spelling.

Leaving that aside there are multiple examples where the /k/ in mac (eg. c) is "attracted" to the "root name" during angliscation. One similiar example is the surname Kernan/McKernan



In this case you have a surname that is "Mac Th..." the "Th" is realised in the angliscation as either /h/ or is deleted thence macHarnon vs. McKiernan/McKernan etc.

This attraction of /k/ occurs when the first phoneme in the name element starts with a vowel, another very good example is:
Mac Aodh -> McKay/Mackey (ao is realised as either /e:/ or /i:/ depending on dialect)




Records of Ballymacurly:

1587 Fiants: Ballymickurylly, Ballem'kirilie

1617 Fiants: Ballym'carilly

1659 Census: Ballemakcrally

1681 Books of Survey and Distribution: Ballymackerrilly

1749 Census of Elphin: Ballymackerily

1837 Tithe Applotment Books: Ballymacurly

1921 Woulfe's "Irish Names and Surnames": Curley = MacThoirdealbaigh


Although I agree with your analysis of the phonetic evolution as a hypothetical scenario, Dubhthach, I can't find any evidence in documentation that it actually happened that way. I can't see in this history any kind of a gradual transformation from a hypothetical more Gaelic early version from MacThoirdealbaigh to the modern version of Macurly. I can more easily see these all being slight variations on English translations of "MacOirealla". My objection to the MacThoirdealbaigh hypothesis lies primarily in consideration of the documented history alongside of the phonetics, rather than the phonetics considered in isolation. The supposed equivalence to MacThoirdealbaigh appears out of nowhere for the first time in 1921. There is nothing before this that would suggest the connection, other than a vague phonetic similarity.

I'm not yet 100% convinced that the name derives from Airgialla. But from the hundreds of documents I've searched looking for a connection to MacThoirdealbaigh without finding any, I've become close to 100% convinced that this connection is a modern invention.

Dubhthach
12-16-2014, 11:55 AM
The Ordnance Survey Map was recorded in English, not Irish, and the name of the manor & townland is recorded as "Ballymacurly". So this unfortunately does not help establish an equivalence to any Irish name.

So are you claiming that the official Irish government database of placenames has no relevance? Particularly when it has references to the name of place in early 20th century when the Irish language was still spoken in East Galway? (Baile Mac Thoirdelbhaigh -- been recorded for example in the 1930's) -- Irish becomes extinct in likes of Roscommon in late 19th/early 20th century.

I'd imagine one possible solution to the quandry would be to look at John O'Donovan's ordance survey letters with regards to Roscommon. I see that this has been published in book form:
http://www.roscommonpeople.ie/itemdetail.asp?itemID=15226

His letters date from circa 1837, looks like originals can be found here:
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/aai-files/assets/ebooks/OSI-Letters/ROSCOMMON%20VOL%201_14%20F%208.pdf
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/aai-files/assets/ebooks/OSI-Letters/ROSCOMMON%20VOL%202_14%20F%209.pdf

Dubhthach
12-16-2014, 12:08 PM
Keating wrote in Irish, specifically in quite a formal register of what is now termed "Early Modern Irish", if you actually look at Foras Feasa ar Éirinn you'll find that he doesn't use Oirealla as a spelling, simply because that word/spelling doesn't exist in Early Modern Irish. Some examples:



Chuiris Ruaidhrí leis sin cruinniughadh ar fhearaibh Chonnacht, Bhréithfne Oirghialla is Midhe, agus triallais do lot Laighean go sluagh líonmhar maille ris i ndíoghail an mhíghníomha soin do rinne Diarmaid.

...
Ag Cairbre Lithfeachair trá scaraid Oirghialla .i. clannana g-Colla ré clannaibh Néill agus ré Connachtaibh. Fiachaidh Sraibhthine iomorro mac Cairbre Lithfeachair, is é seanathair Eochach Muighmheadhóin mic Muireadhaigh Thírigh mic Fiachach Sraibhthine é, agus is ón Muireadhach soin atáid clanna Néill agus fir Chonnacht. Eochaidh Doimhléan iomorro mac Cairbre Lithfeachair dearbhráthair d'Fhiachaidh Sraibhthine; agus do bhádar triar mac ag an Eochaidh sin .i. na trí Colla agus is uatha atá Uí Mac Uais, Uí Criomhthainn, agus Modhornaigh


He also uses the dative plural form of Oirghialla a number of times, this is Oirghiallaibh. The dative plural is regarded as obsolete in modern Irish (though you still see it in Munster):


A trian do Chonnachtaibh,
A ndligheadh ó chéin,
A trian do Oirghiallaibh,
A trian do Uíbh Néill.

....

Láimh dheas ríogh Teamhrach tréine
Gan ainbhfíor gan ainfhéile,
Lé Oirghiallaibh sonna sain,
Gan fhuigheall gan imreasain.

miiser
12-16-2014, 12:21 PM
I think it was clear that I was referring to publications of Keating's work, not the original manuscript. Publications of Keating's work, printed prior to 1940/1950, use the Oirealla spelling.

miiser
12-16-2014, 12:24 PM
So are you claiming that the official Irish government database of placenames has no relevance? Particularly when it has references to the name of place in early 20th century when the Irish language was still spoken in East Galway? (Baile Mac Thoirdelbhaigh -- been recorded for example in the 1930's)

Yes, if the official government database was copied from Woulfe's book, which may have invented the equivalence in 1921, then the official government database has no relevance. Although I'll grant in favor of your argument that government beauracracies are rarely ever wrong about anything.

miiser
12-16-2014, 12:47 PM
I'd imagine one possible solution to the quandry would be to look at John O'Donovan's ordance survey letters with regards to Roscommon. I see that this has been published in book form:
http://www.roscommonpeople.ie/itemdetail.asp?itemID=15226

His letters date from circa 1837, looks like originals can be found here:
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/aai-files/assets/ebooks/OSI-Letters/ROSCOMMON%20VOL%201_14%20F%208.pdf
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/aai-files/assets/ebooks/OSI-Letters/ROSCOMMON%20VOL%202_14%20F%209.pdf

Thanks for the suggestion. I've looked at those already, and could find no mention of Ballymacurly. It's clear you have a great deal of general knowledge of the subject, so thank you for the feedback. This is the kind of criticism I'm looking for to confirm or refute the hypothesis. But my conclusions are based on a large amount of specific research on the topic, so I'll need specific data to convince me otherwise.

AncientCelt
12-16-2014, 02:24 PM
That's right, at least one version of Curley most likely comes from Corlay, in Brittany....this actually was pretty easy to solve, it really didn't take me much time at all once I put my mind to it. Whether or not de Curlieu has any connection to Corlay in Brittany, another story, haven't made that connection yet but I think the mystery may be solved. I wish you success in spending more time with the Oirealla journey, best wishes.

Dubhthach
12-16-2014, 09:12 PM
I think it was clear that I was referring to publications of Keating's work, not the original manuscript. Publications of Keating's work, printed prior to 1940/1950, use the Oirealla spelling.

Publications in English, in the irish language Oirealla doesn't have any currency, just like the more usual angliscations such as Uriel or Oriel don't. This is even more of a case before 1950 (when the spelling reform started to be propagated) when word internal -gh- would always be written in the name when writing in irish.

I had a quick look at "Nua-Chorpas na hÉireann" (The New Corpus of Ireland), the only records they have of Oirealla are from Foinse (an Irish language newspaper), and appear to be case of spelling mistake for "Tír Oirill" (Tirerrill in Sligo).

Leaving that aside, lets have a look how a putative surname based around the geographic area Oirghialla would become a personal name and then a surname.

1. add -ach suffix = Oirghiallach
2. genitive case of above personal name Oirghiallaigh
3. Son of Oirghiallach = mac Oirghiallaigh

Interesting enough "Mac Oirghiallaigh" appears to show up in one entry in the Annals of the four masters, though in some of translations it's glossed as Mac Errilly, which actually makes sense phonetically as far as angliscations go.

Even further back in the 10th century we see "Oirgiallaigh" showing up as genitive in genealogy of Maguire of Fermanagh.

miiser
12-17-2014, 02:37 AM
Anyways Old Irish Aírgialla gives Early Modern Irish: Oirghialla

Under spelling reform introduced in 1940's/1950's this is reduced to Oirialla as word internal gh (-gh-) is not pronounced anymore in Modern Irish.



My comment regarding Keating's work was a response to this specific comment. You said that the Oirialla was introduced in the 1940's/1950's. Yet there are English publications of Keating's work prior to this date which use the Oirealla spelling.

I do not mean to use this particular fact as a defense of the Oirealla origin, but simply to counter your argument that the spelling did not exist before this time. It did exist. And if writers used it in translations of Keating, then people may have similarly used it as a name spelling.

miiser
12-17-2014, 02:41 AM
I had a quick look at "Nua-Chorpas na hÉireann" (The New Corpus of Ireland), the only records they have of Oirealla are from Foinse (an Irish language newspaper), and appear to be case of spelling mistake for "Tír Oirill" (Tirerrill in Sligo).

Leaving that aside, lets have a look how a putative surname based around the geographic area Oirghialla would become a personal name and then a surname.

1. add -ach suffix = Oirghiallach
2. genitive case of above personal name Oirghiallaigh
3. Son of Oirghiallach = mac Oirghiallaigh

Interesting enough "Mac Oirghiallaigh" appears to show up in one entry in the Annals of the four masters, though in some of translations it's glossed as Mac Errilly, which actually makes sense phonetically as far as angliscations go.

Even further back in the 10th century we see "Oirgiallaigh" showing up as genitive in genealogy of Maguire of Fermanagh.


This information is new to me and helpful. Thanks.

Dubhthach
12-17-2014, 09:37 AM
My comment regarding Keating's work was a response to this specific comment. You said that the Oirialla was introduced in the 1940's/1950's. Yet there are English publications of Keating's work prior to this date which use the Oirealla spelling.

I do not mean to use this particular fact as a defense of the Oirealla origin, but simply to counter your argument that the spelling did not exist before this time. It did exist. And if writers used it in translations of Keating, then people may have similarly used it as a name spelling.

It didn't exist in Irish though, your argument is that the "Mac Oirealla" which appears to be attempt to "re-gaelicise" Curly is an Irish language name, if Oirealla didn't exist as a valid term in Irish for Oirghialla then there is no correlation between the two. In reality "Mac Oirealla" looks like a post-"caighdeán oifigiúil" (official standard) makey uppy gaelicisation.

You can't "gaelicise" your surname by taking an anglisced form of the root word.

miiser
12-17-2014, 11:01 AM
It didn't exist in Irish though, your argument is that the "Mac Oirealla" which appears to be attempt to "re-gaelicise" Curly is an Irish language name, if Oirealla didn't exist as a valid term in Irish for Oirghialla then there is no correlation between the two. In reality "Mac Oirealla" looks like a post-"caighdeán oifigiúil" (official standard) makey uppy gaelicisation.

You can't "gaelicise" your surname by taking an anglisced form of the root word.

You're focusing on spellings. I'm focusing on phonetics. Phonetics of words is usually consistent over time. Spelling is not. I'm not proposing a specific spelling of the word as the actual spelling that people used. Nor am I proposing that modern Curleys use the "correct" spelling. I use "Oirealla" as a convenience, since I have to write something to refer to the word, regardless of how it may have been actually written at any given time.

I do not trust that the Gaelic language was preserved well enough for all the Irish to actually know the proper Irish spelling of their names. As you say, there may well have been re-Gaelicization which is incorrect. And this may just as well be the case with MacThoirdealbaigh being assigned to Curley. The correct Irish spelling is not a law of nature.

All that is required for the hypothesis to be plausible is that:

1) There was at one point in time a name possibly related to the kingdom. - You've already agreed that there was a "Mac Oirghiallaigh" and that in some cases this is translated as "Mac Errilly". I would point out that Mac Errilly is phonetically very similar to the earliest recorded English records for the MacCurly name, such as M'Kirile. And I would argue that M'Kirilie is phonetically closer to Mac Errilly and Mac Oirghiallaigh than it is to MacThoirdealbaigh or MacTurlough.
2) That the phonetics of the name has been more or less preserved to the present day.
3) That there are modern Curleys who might write this same name as "Mac Oirealla" to refer to the same phonetics used for the kingdom. - While this may not be a linguistically "correct" Irish spelling, it is the same as the English spelling found in translations of Keating. So it has been demonstrated to be considered by some people as phonetically equivalent to Airgialla, regardless of whether it is considered to be a "correct" Irish name by scholars. And so, just as the writers of Keating wrote the word in English as Oirealla, a person with a phonetically similar name may write it the same when writing their own name in what they consider to be the Irish version - even if it is not the "correct" Irish spelling per scholastic tradition. Most people are not linguists.

The phonetic continuity of the timeline and its consistency with historic documentation is far more important than the word actually being considered a "correct" Irish name by linguists. Mac Oirealla has Mac Thoirdealbaigh beat in this regard.

Your careful definition of the Irish version versus the English version of the name is really not compatible with the complexities of reality. We are not discussing here the Irish versus the English translation of a common noun with two totally different and distinct phonetics and spellings. We are discussing the development of a proper noun which has been translated phonetically from Irish to English and then developed over the ages, with the modern English spelling likely having been arrived at only after passing through a variety of both "Irish" spellings as well as English spellings.

For example, suppose the MacToirdealbaigh assignment is true, and the name development over time had been Mac Toirdealbaigh to Mac Turlough to Curley or some such progression. For someone with the modern English name Curley, would Mac Turlough be considered an incorrect Irish version? an incorrect English version? In the same fashion, Mac Oirealla may be a middle ground version between Mac Airgialla and Curley - not the "correct" Irish version per modern scholarly rules, but a more Irish earlier version which might be considered by some Curleys to be the Irish version of their name.

Criticizing Oirealla for not being a "correct" Irish name is a weak argument. Up until the past century, most people were not literate. So in most cases there really is no such thing as a "correct Irish name" with regards to spelling. All there is in most cases is the phonetics of the original Irish name, the closest phonetic translation into English, the English spelling that happened to make it into records, and the "Irish" spelling that a scholar, hundreds of years later, created to try to approximate the original Irish phonetics of the name and then labelled as "correct". So to say that there is no such thing as an Irish name "Mac Oirealla" is a silly argument, for in a very real sense there was also no such thing as the Irish name "Airgialla". They are both spellings invented to approximate the phonetics of a Gaelic name which at one point had no written form. Research Toirdealbaigh and you'll find 10 or 20 different spellings. Which one of these 20 is a "real" Irish name? None or them. When I use the word "Mac Oirealla", I am using it as an English spelling which has a history of being used to approximate the phonetics of a particular Irish name, and has also been used to approximate the phonetics of the Irish kingdom.

SearchSeeker
01-17-2015, 01:41 AM
How's the theory panning out, haven't seen any updates in a while..I'll keep following this, I also watch Finding Bigfoot, hoping that pans out one day. Anyway, best wishes and keep the forum posted with any updates, I'm very much interested in this.

Michael David Curley
02-08-2015, 11:24 PM
Greetings.

I'm not 100% sure when you posted the below: However, have long sought DNA markings to prove my own theory. Not only is the modern name of Curley, as ancient as any often better known Irish name, it was hidden for a reason. I know from fact and even post burning of records, that my side of Curley, on fathers side, carried down making myself, 3rd generation Anglo-Irish, from the original areas, of Galway, Roscommon, by way of county: My sister continues has lived in Ireland for many years now and we therefore have travelled around. http://mikecurleymusic.com is my daily job: There is a place at Conmacnoise on the Shannonbridge called Curley's Island.

It is my strong belief that not only was Curley prior to its Viking takes of MacThoirdealbaigh in as much as Thor Like, by way of given tribal name, at least in strain, relevant. That as is the chieftain, by way of landscape in Roscommon, by way of statute a modern day telling of reality to what was before: The only reason the vikings blockaded the ports was because the Irish clans had been trading with North American Natives: Hence black hair: My theory prior to DNA is that anyone of original or at least continued provable male Curley line from Ireland will also have native american blood.

I am not only happy to provide a sample of DNA, but in any event help you promote it. There is no question that all early clans have Mac to the the name: We must also remember that Curley at all levels have been involved in at least knowable Irish history, from the Phoenix Park murders to the U.S Fenian raids. Irony is, clan like, myself always living in England, but feeling wise at least being more than a Windsor is in any event at attempting to believe they are Alfred The Great's.

Available daily via my email, and hope this receives you well: earlswoodb94@gmail.com



The DNA evidence is not yet conclusive by any means, but I just sent this information to my Curley surname project. It's an interesting example of genetic genealogy helping to solve a surname origin mystery, so I decided to repost it here on Anthrogenica for anyone interested.

The traditional story, apparently started by Patrick Woulfe in his book of Irish surnames, is that the Curley surname derives from MacThoirdealbaigh. I've never been convinced by this theory, as it's not supported by the records. I've come up with a new theory based on extensive research of documentation and DNA evidence which seems to be fully consistent with both the historic documentation and DNA evidence.

For some time I've been aware that there are some native Irish Curleys who use the Irish spelling "Mac Oirealla" for their name. Up until recently, I've never given this name spelling much consideration, assuming it was possibly just a modern phonetic translation into Irish from the English version of the name. But there are some very interesting patterns regarding this version of the name that demand closer consideration.

Oirealla is a spelling variation of the 8th century kingdom of Airgialla, which was roughly located in the modern counties of Louth, Monaghan, Armagh, Fermanagh, Tyrone, and Derry. For more information on the Airgialla kingdom, see this wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airg%C3%ADalla

Consider the earliest recorded English spellings of the Irish Curley family from the 16th century, documented in the Irish fiants of 1587: MicKurylly and M'Kirilie. Phonetically, these names are closer to MacOirealla than to MacThoirdealbaigh or its common English translation of MacTurlough.

Griffith's Valuation reveals a concentration of Curleys in counties Louth and Monaghan, spreading inland from the city of Dundalk, as you can see on the map I have on our website:
http://curleysurname.weebly.com/irish.html

This population lies neatly within the kingdom of Airgialla. The Airgialla kingdom is said to have originated from the Three Collas, ancient kings of Ireland. The history and geographic distribution of the Airgialla kingdom is closely tied to that of the Three Collas.

FTDNA has a project called "Clan Colla". Members of this group have surnames and a geographic distribution that correlate with the descendants of the Three Collas. This lineage is believed to represent descendants of the Three Collas. The STRs of this group look like a possible match to one of our Irish Curley genetic groups.

Our project currently has 3 genetic groups with lineages that trace to Irish Curleys. It is probable that one of these groups has an intact lineage descending from the surname progenitor, while the other two groups have been affected by non paternal events. This sort of fragmentation is typical of surname lineages which are hundreds of years old. Of these three genetic groups, one of them looks like a possible match to the Collas. This group is labelled as "Irish Curley 2 - Roscommon/Westmeath". This group currently has only 1 member, with a 37 marker Y-DNA test, although I'm aware that there are autosomal matches to at least two other Irish Curleys. One of these matches is a new member of our project, with a 111 marker Y-DNA test currently in progress.

I've heard oral traditions that the Roscommon/Galway/Westmeath Curleys were originally from the north, and moved south when their land was confiscated during the Plantations. This story corresponds very neatly with the population distribution we see for the Curley name. The small population cluster in the north near Dundalk reflects the original location of the family. The larger populations around Athlone and westward into Galway reflect those members of the family that were forced from their homes and resettled in the south.

So, to summarize my theory: the Curley name derives from the ancient kingdom of Airgialla, with a more modern spelling of Oirealla. Our DNA group "Irish Curley 2" may be descendants of this ancient lineage, related to the Three Collas. The other two Irish Curley lineages probably share the same name lineage, but the genetic lineages have been broken by non paternal events.

Test results of our new project member may help confirm a connection to the Collas. Please keep in mind that this theory is brand new, and hasn't had any time yet to be nit picked and torn to pieces. So it will need some time to settle and be confirmed or rejected. But right now I feel very good about it, and it's my leading theory by a wide margin. Of all the various theories regarding the family origin, this is the first one that I'm comfortable with. Unlike previous theories, this one is fully consistent with all the historic documentation and genetic evidence.

To help confirm this theory, it would be great to have a DNA test from a Curley of the Louth or Monaghan area. If anyone has any connection to such a Curley, please send them my way. I'll sponsor a 111 marker test for any Curleys that are native to this area. If we get a DNA match from this area to our current "Irish Curleys 2" group, that would be strong evidence in support of the theory.

Please note that the project webpage is not yet fully updated with this new information. I'll be updating it as soon as possible.

Michael David Curley
02-08-2015, 11:54 PM
I'll go one step further: Curley, is as Curlew, as in Curlew pass: Native American folklore held that the bird was the last to seek shelter before a hurricane, and the first to emerge afterwards. The bird was thus a symbol for danger and optimism: The name not only falls in line with tails of why St.Brendan travelled and found New Found Land: It also predates viking myths they were in the new world before the original clans: Curley is a name that has never changed: Based on nothing more than name placements of monastery alone: At Curley's Island between Shannonbridge and Clonmacnoise, there is a legendary ford of Snámh Dá Éan ("swim two birds"). It was here that a proselytising Saint Patrick crossed the Shannon into Connacht and much later the Anglo-Normans considered the ford important enough to be guarded by one of their campaign forts. Accordingly, they constructed the great Motte of Clonburren on the Roscommon side of the river, within sight of an even then declining early Christian nunnery: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannonbridge What is unlikely that a name so old would have taken basic Viking Thor reference even if given X amount of 100's of years past down: My side of Curley: likewise are others, have never changed from such references: And with basic Irish laws of Troubles, and Famine: Very easy to forget. Lineage not being a thing unless basic study of why names around still holy sites are name that: In tradition of both folklore, and then, relevance to Catholic tales of celebrated saints who travelled. To combine DNA of a person who has unbroken lineage to that, is therefore second to know: Learn the stories of native placement of the Curlew bird, and understand the name Curley, itself;

Please excuse any brevity.


Greetings.

I'm not 100% sure when you posted the below: However, have long sought DNA markings to prove my own theory. Not only is the modern name of Curley, as ancient as any often better known Irish name, it was hidden for a reason. I know from fact and even post burning of records, that my side of Curley, on fathers side, carried down making myself, 3rd generation Anglo-Irish, from the original areas, of Galway, Roscommon, by way of county: My sister continues has lived in Ireland for many years now and we therefore have travelled around. http://mikecurleymusic.com is my daily job: There is a place at Conmacnoise on the Shannonbridge called Curley's Island.

It is my strong belief that not only was Curley prior to its Viking takes of MacThoirdealbaigh in as much as Thor Like, by way of given tribal name, at least in strain, relevant. That as is the chieftain, by way of landscape in Roscommon, by way of statute a modern day telling of reality to what was before: The only reason the vikings blockaded the ports was because the Irish clans had been trading with North American Natives: Hence black hair: My theory prior to DNA is that anyone of original or at least continued provable male Curley line from Ireland will also have native american blood.

I am not only happy to provide a sample of DNA, but in any event help you promote it. There is no question that all early clans have Mac to the the name: We must also remember that Curley at all levels have been involved in at least knowable Irish history, from the Phoenix Park murders to the U.S Fenian raids. Irony is, clan like, myself always living in England, but feeling wise at least being more than a Windsor is in any event at attempting to believe they are Alfred The Great's.

Available daily via my email, and hope this receives you well: earlswoodb94@gmail.com

SearchSeeker
02-09-2015, 04:22 PM
Michael, are you now considering YDNA testing to see which Curley group you may belong? I ask because there are at least 3, possibly more from the same general area in Central Ireland and there are several plausible hypothesis for completely separate origins.

SearchSeeker
03-20-2015, 12:10 AM
So I guess the original proposition here was debunked and there is no connection? Do they close threads on here or do they allow the originator of a thread to delete their thread because it was found to be unsupported?

AncientCelt
03-26-2015, 12:58 AM
Fascinating flip flop here, when the original connection the the Collas was thoroughly debunked, now the shift is towards an M222 group as the point of origin of the surname. Do I now have to debunk the M222 group just like I did for the Colla group? This "theory" is dead and buried, why not accept the facts and the truth of more than 1 point of origin? Too bad the so called academic training keeps getting in the way of common sense. Regards.

Muireagain
04-24-2015, 03:38 PM
The Y-DNA haplotype results (particularly DYS449) for the Curley of Galway (group 4: Irish Curley 3) matches with a particular sub-branch of M222 population, i.e. A738. The group includes surnames associated with the East Galway area: Egan, Larkin, Dunn, Kimble, Morgan, and non-Galway surnames such as Knowles and possibly the Coffey of Westmeath (I have seen no results yet for the Coffey of Roscommon.)

miiser
04-25-2015, 02:26 AM
The Y-DNA haplotype results (particularly DYS449) for the Curley of Galway (group 4: Irish Curley 3) matches with a particular sub-branch of M222 population, i.e. A738. The group includes surnames associated with the East Galway area: Egan, Larkin, Dunn, Kimble, Morgan, and non-Galway surnames such as Knowles and possibly the Coffey of Westmeath (I have seen no results yet for the Coffey of Roscommon.)

Yep. Thanks for pointing this out. I had also noticed the possible connection and documented it on the surname project webpage.

The hypothesized Clan Colla connection in my original comment turned out not to be the case with expanded Y-DNA testing. Around the same time as those test results, however, this M222 group came from behind as a dark horse, and now appears to possibly represent the original MacOirealla lineage. The Curley group you mention clusters especially closely with a group in the Breifne project labelled as "McGovern/Coogan", which is geographically clustered around the east Breifne territory. And this Curley surname group has an MRCA centered at around the 16th century, with pre surname matches to this cluster estimated at about the 14th-15th century, which is consistent with a connection to a 15th century MacOirghiallaigh progenitor of this area. This Curley group appears to be widely spread throughout Ireland, which supports it being the original lineage rather than an NPE affected branch. Although the sample size is still fairly small, and I'd like more data samples to support the early MRCA and establish a stronger STR signature.

I'd intended to post an update to this thread soon to mention the M222 Breifne group of Curleys, but I have some sponsored tests in process from the Monaghan and Dundalk area that I've been waiting for, hoping to have a more complete picture before posting an update. I expect that Curleys/Corleys of this area will belong in this same group, and provide support for a 15th century progenitor from this area. But unfortunately, I've found that getting sponsored native Irish testers to send back their kits is like pulling teeth, so I'm still waiting after four months. So I might as well go ahead and post the information that I have.

Just to clarify some points on my initial post -

The proposed connection of Curley to MacOirealla/MacOirghiallaigh is based on documentation evidence, not DNA evidence. There is far too much documentation to list it all in this thread, but it's available on the Curley project website. Having discovered the connection in documentation, I looked to see if there were any groups in our project that might fit the bill. At the time, I thought one particular group of our project might possibly be linked to this area via the Clan Colla subclade, although the DNA signature was far from a sure thing. Now, with additional data points, it looks like the MacOirghiallaigh progenitor is more likely associated with this M222 Breifne group.

As mentioned, there is a large amount of documentation evidence regarding a Curley connection to MacOirealla/MacOirghiallaigh, too much to include in this discussion. But I'll provide a summary here:

Woulfe's proposed equivalence of Curley = MacThoirdealbhaigh isn't supported by documentation. All later documentation which identifies Curley with MacThoirdealbhaigh appears to originate with Woulfe's 1921-1923 publications, and propagate from there. No identification of Curley with MacThoirdealbhaigh can be found prior to this 1921 publication.

The actual documentation records show a continuity of pronunciation which is more consistent with MacOirealla/MacOirghiallaigh. This is especially evident in the English records of Ballymacurly. Interestingly, in Woulfe's earliest publication, he identifies Curley with MacOirealla. It is only in his later publication that he switches to MacThoirdealbhaigh, appearing to have assumed that MacThoirdealbhaigh is equivalent to MacOirealla. But this supposed equivalence is not supported by the documentation. It appears to have been a best guess by Woulfe, which has turned out to have been wrong.

In fact, Thoirdealbhaigh with the lenited "T" doesn't even appear in early Irish records as a personal name or patronym. The correct name is Toirdealbhaigh, with a hard "T", consistently translated to English phonetics as Turlough. While I can allow the possibility of MacThoirdealbhaigh phonetically morphing to M'Curley, this is less plausible with the hard "T" of MacToirdealbhaigh, especially considering the well establish record of being consistently translated to English as Turlough.

In the Annals of Ulster, the spelling used for the Oirghialla kingdom is identical to the spelling used for the MacOirghiallaigh family. This is distinct from the spelling used for Toirdealbhaigh. So I believe the Oirghialla kingdom name and MacOirghiallaigh patronym probably share the same Irish root, and the proximity of the Airghialla kingdom to the MacOirghiallaigh family supports a connection. Although I don't make any claim as to whether the patronym derives from the kingdom, or the kingdom name derives from a person, or both the kingdom name and personal name derive from a common root word.

I'm still working on getting some additional Curley/Corley samples from the Airghialla/Breifne territories. I'll post another update to this thread when additional data becomes available.

falconson1
04-25-2015, 02:57 AM
The only individuals with the surname Curley in this neck of the woods (Grand River Territory, Six Nations, Ontario) are descendants of Lower Cayugas. Chief John Curley was one of the most respected individuals in the Township of South Cayuga in the 1840s. He died in 1849 (as I recall) and his descendants became prominent members of the Six Nations community on the consolidated Reserve. The origin of the surname is unknown (many at Six Nations have known European male ancestors, e.g., MacNaughton, Garlow, Hess). There was a "Curley Headed George" among the associated Delawares during the War of 1812, or, as with the Mohawk - Wyandotte Cotters, they may have had Irish origins. It is very very unlikely that there will be any sort of organized formal DNA testing hereabouts, although I have convinced a few selected individuals to take the plunge.

miiser
04-25-2015, 03:19 AM
The only individuals with the surname Curley in this neck of the woods (Grand River Territory, Six Nations, Ontario) are descendants of Lower Cayugas. Chief John Curley was one of the most respected individuals in the Township of South Cayuga in the 1840s. He died in 1849 (as I recall) and his descendants became prominent members of the Six Nations community on the consolidated Reserve. The origin of the surname is unknown (many at Six Nations have known European male ancestors, e.g., MacNaughton, Garlow, Hess). There was a "Curley Headed George" among the associated Delawares during the War of 1812, or, as with the Mohawk - Wyandotte Cotters, they may have had Irish origins. It is very very unlikely that there will be any sort of organized formal DNA testing hereabouts, although I have convinced a few selected individuals to take the plunge.

It's not a very common surname in general, but has pretty high frequency in a few particular locales and time spans.

Most of the American Curleys are Irish immigrants, and they're concentrated around the NYC area. Most of them came from the Irish counties of Galway and Roscommon, especially the city of Athlone. There's also a smaller cluster in the north around counties Monaghan and Louth, where I think the family originated and then migrated south after their land was confiscated in the Plantations. The northern cluster appears to have a wider variety of spellings, including Corley, Kirley, and Kerley. The greater diversity of spellings is consistent with an early progenitor in this area.

I'm aware that there are also some Native Americans who use the name. I think the Native American name probably has an origin which is unrelated to the Irish Curleys, at least in most cases. Although I'm aware of a few Irish Curleys who migrated from the NYC area up into Canada. Right now, I don't make any mention of the Native American Curleys on the project website, as they are pretty few and far between. Although I would like to add this if I can find the time. Our project is small enough that I get excited about every single test kit that we get.

I came across a Blackfoot family in the census with particularly amusing names: "Bear Curley", with wives named "Paid her fine" and "Extravagant Woman", and children "Charles", "Louise", and "Tina Muskrat". I think perhaps something of the wives' names is lost in translation. Or perhaps gained in translation, depending on how you want to look at it . . .

As a side note, if there are any Irish Curleys who read this that are from counties Monaghan or Louth or thereabouts, I'm willing to foot the bill for a free DNA test. If I don't get any takes on the offer in the next few weeks, I may consider expanding the offer to the entire island.

falconson1
04-25-2015, 03:35 AM
I'm aware that there are also some Native Americans who use the name. I think the Native American name probably has an origin which is unrelated to the Irish Curleys, at least in most cases. Although I'm aware of a few Irish Curleys who migrated from the NYC area up into Canada. Right now, I don't make any mention of the Native American Curleys on the project website, as they are pretty few and far between. Although I would like to add this if I can find the time. Our project is small enough that I get excited about every single test kit that we get.

Oddly a distant relative, John Curley, a Delaware chief, at some point and for reasons unknown changed his surname to Cayuga. This simply complicates the search for surname origins. However it is more clear that the Cotters (also distant relatives) are all descendants of an Irishman, Nicholas Cotter, who married a Mohawk woman, and whose eldest son Francis Cotter was a Bear Clan Mohawk Chief but gave this up to join the Wyandotte community which eventually migrated to Kansas City where Cotter died. His descendants removed to Oklahoma.

miiser
04-25-2015, 08:31 AM
Oddly a distant relative, John Curley, a Delaware chief, at some point and for reasons unknown changed his surname to Cayuga. This simply complicates the search for surname origins. However it is more clear that the Cotters (also distant relatives) are all descendants of an Irishman, Nicholas Cotter, who married a Mohawk woman, and whose eldest son Francis Cotter was a Bear Clan Mohawk Chief but gave this up to join the Wyandotte community which eventually migrated to Kansas City where Cotter died. His descendants removed to Oklahoma.

I suspect that in most cases of Indians using the Curley name, it is either a descriptive type name (as in the case of Curly Headed George), or an English nickname that got picked up and used by Indians. I know there were Old West types who used Curly as a nickname. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of an Indian inheriting it from an early Irish Curley. The vast majority of Irish Curleys arrived later during the famine, but there were a handful of early Irish Curley immigrants, some of whom were frontiersmen. If your John Curley inherited the name from the Irish, then it's most likely from the main Irish Curley population of the Galway/Roscommon area. Although there were also some early American settlers who descend from an Ulster Scot family, probably unrelated to the main group of Irish Curleys. In Canada I suppose there is also a fair chance of a connection to the French name Curlieu, which has in some cases morphed to the English version of Curley. This particular family has a Norman origin.

If you managed to find a descendant of the Cayuga Curleys in your neighborhood to test, I'd be curious to see the results.

Fildo Dog
10-13-2015, 09:09 PM
The only individuals with the surname Curley in this neck of the woods (Grand River Territory, Six Nations, Ontario) are descendants of Lower Cayugas. Chief John Curley was one of the most respected individuals in the Township of South Cayuga in the 1840s. He died in 1849 (as I recall) and his descendants became prominent members of the Six Nations community on the consolidated Reserve. The origin of the surname is unknown (many at Six Nations have known European male ancestors, e.g., MacNaughton, Garlow, Hess). There was a "Curley Headed George" among the associated Delawares during the War of 1812, or, as with the Mohawk - Wyandotte Cotters, they may have had Irish origins. It is very very unlikely that there will be any sort of organized formal DNA testing hereabouts, although I have convinced a few selected individuals to take the plunge.

Falconson1:

Can you elaborate on the John Curley you reference. My Great Great Grandfather was John Curley on the Grand River upriver from Dunnville in Haldimand County, Ontario in 1831. Brother of Peter. Husband of Elizabeth. Father of Samuel. Trying to trace him before 1800. Can you shed some light on what you know and where I can find out more. His Ancestor was from County Cork in Ireland, was most likely an Irishman or a Scots-Irishman soldier in the British Army in Pennsylvania in the 1700's who mingled with a Delaware squaw. My Indians brethren were red-headed. Called the Fire Tribe. And Protestant - Baptist. Do you know his wife Elizabeth's maiden name? Any insight you can share would be much appreciated.

Kindest Regards,

Fildo

ToastRoven
04-09-2016, 08:02 AM
I suspect that in most cases of Indians using the Curley name, it is either a descriptive type name (as in the case of Curly Headed George), or an English nickname that got picked up and used by Indians. I know there were Old West types who used Curly as a nickname. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of an Indian inheriting it from an early Irish Curley. The vast majority of Irish Curleys arrived later during the famine, but there were a handful of early Irish Curley immigrants, some of whom were frontiersmen. If your John Curley inherited the name from the Irish, then it's most likely from the main Irish Curley population of the Galway/Roscommon area. Although there were also some early American settlers who descend from an Ulster Scot family, probably unrelated to the main group of Irish Curleys. In Canada I suppose there is also a fair chance of a connection to the French name Curlieu, which has in some cases morphed to the English version of Curley. This particular family has a Norman origin.

If you managed to find a descendant of the Cayuga Curleys in your neighborhood to test, I'd be curious to see the results.

I am a direct relative of a Curley my Grandfather was Raymond Curley and my grandmother Clara Curley

miiser
08-07-2016, 11:55 PM
I'd intended to post an update to this thread soon to mention the M222 Breifne group of Curleys, but I have some sponsored tests in process from the Monaghan and Dundalk area that I've been waiting for, hoping to have a more complete picture before posting an update. I expect that Curleys/Corleys of this area will belong in this same group, and provide support for a 15th century progenitor from this area. But unfortunately, I've found that getting sponsored native Irish testers to send back their kits is like pulling teeth, so I'm still waiting after four months. So I might as well go ahead and post the information that I have.
. . .
I'm still working on getting some additional Curley/Corley samples from the Airghialla/Breifne territories. I'll post another update to this thread when additional data becomes available.

I just realized that I never updated this thread with the outcome of the additional testing.

Testing has confirmed that there is an ancient connection between the Curleys of the Roscommon/Galway area and the Curleys of the Oriel area in the northeast. This is an ancient lineage, with an MRCA estimate centered at about the 15th century, which has emerged as the oldest, largest, and most widely spread lineage of the surname. This lineage has been identified as belonging to haplogroup M222>A738/BY198.

This supports the hypothesis that the Curley lineage originated in the Oriel area, and that the name recorded in early Irish manuscripts, "McOirghiallaigh" or "McOirealla", can be identified with this lineage. The several other genetic lineages of the Roscommon/Galway area are most likely the result of locally occurring NPEs into the Curley name after its arrival in the 16th century.

So, this thread may be out of place in this subforum, in that it no longer deals directly with DF21. However, it is perhaps still of interest to this group, since the Oirghialla kingdom, which this Curley lineage comes from and shares its name with, is associated with Clan Colla, which is associated with DF21.

kevinduffy
08-08-2016, 01:06 AM
I just realized that I never updated this thread with the outcome of the additional testing.

Testing has confirmed that there is an ancient connection between the Curleys of the Roscommon/Galway area and the Curleys of the Oriel area in the northeast. This is an ancient lineage, with an MRCA estimate centered at about the 15th century, which has emerged as the oldest, largest, and most widely spread lineage of the surname. This lineage has been identified as belonging to haplogroup M222>A738/BY198.

This supports the hypothesis that the Curley lineage originated in the Oriel area, and that the name recorded in early Irish manuscripts, "McOirghiallaigh" or "McOirealla", can be identified with this lineage. The several other genetic lineages of the Roscommon/Galway area are most likely the result of locally occurring NPEs into the Curley name after its arrival in the 16th century.

So, this thread may be out of place in this subforum, in that it no longer deals directly with DF21. However, it is perhaps still of interest to this group, since the Oirghialla kingdom, which this Curley lineage comes from and shares its name with, is associated with Clan Colla, which is associated with DF21.

But do they carry Z3000? I thought that to be part of Clan Colla you had to be positive for Z3000.

miiser
08-08-2016, 01:30 AM
But do they carry Z3000? I thought that to be part of Clan Colla you had to be positive for Z3000.

They are not Z3000. But we should not expect a tribe/clan to be composed of just a single haplogroup. Tribes are not generally uniform, homogenous genetic groups. Over centuries, we should expect a certain amount of haplogroup mixing among neighboring tribes due to foster children, etc. Furthermore, the Oirghialla were not necessarily a kingdom or clan per se, but more of a political confederation of assorted groups. So, yes, Z3000 is considered to be a major haplogroup of Clan Colla. But we should not imagine that it is the only haplogroup associated with this group. This Curley lineage, of haplogroup M222>A738/BY198, also appears to be associated with the Oirghialla.

My belief is that this Curley lineage arose within the Oirghialla kingdom and developed a surname that shares the same root word as the kingdom. I think they would have intermingled with the Z3000 Clan Colla guys. They descend from a different haplogroup of the same locale, and probably share much of the same history.

Muireagain
08-12-2016, 06:13 AM
BY198 families Morgan, Egan and others are from the Irish Midlands. I doubt the Oriel connection.

miiser
08-12-2016, 06:58 AM
BY198 families Morgan, Egan and others are from the Irish Midlands. I doubt the Oriel connection.

The BY198 haplogroup doesn't have a great enough sample size to really say that it's from anywhere in particular. There are a couple samples from central Ireland, but it's as much from Oriel as from anywhere else. The Oriel connection is based first and foremost on documentation. The genetic group I zeroed in on is the one that best matches the documented history.

And I'm not claiming that ALL of BY198 have the same geographic association. We shouldn't expect them to, given the haplogroup's age, and the fact that people can pretty easily move the 50 miles or so from Oriel to the Midlands in a single generation. I'm just proposing that this one particular family came from Oriel.

Muireagain
08-12-2016, 04:03 PM
And these Oriel families are?

miiser
08-12-2016, 09:39 PM
And these Oriel families are?

Looking in the M222 project, I see Morgan from Louth. I'm also aware of a Curley from Dundalk (not a member of the M222 project) whose lineage has been in Dundalk as far back as genealogical records go. And the Curley name has had a continuous documented presence in Oriel going back to the 15th century.

For central Ireland, I see one member from Galway and one from Laois.

Two for each, out of about 20 members and 15 different surnames.

Neither collection is nearly enough to claim a trend. The only apparent trend is that quite a few are from the eastern US.

Muireagain
08-17-2016, 10:22 PM
The M222 Morgan has ruled out county Louth after a aDNA test. Two other M222/A738 Morgan's families have been living in County Galway for the past 200 years and have not left. The Egans of Tipperray would seem to be A738 along with the Larkins.

miiser
08-17-2016, 11:21 PM
The M222 Morgan has ruled out county Louth after a aDNA test. Two other M222/A738 Morgan's families have been living in County Galway for the past 200 years and have not left. The Egans of Tipperray would seem to be A738 along with the Larkins.

And now this is the part where I say that I am doubtful. There is no data to support any of this other than your own word.

The single BY198 confirmed Morgan in the M222 project has a specific MDKA listed, and he lists that person as James Morgan b circa 1820 Louth. There are no other Morgans identified as BY198/A738 within the Morgan surname project. All the primary sources very clearly show that the Morgans are concentrated in Oriel, with a long history there. Check Griffith's valuation for a start. John Grenham's website has some nice reference maps. There are loads of primary sources that demonstrate Morgan's historical association with the Airghialla. This website has quite a collection: freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~muireagain/Ulster.htm

The Egans look to be a Roscommon concentrated family. But of the four confirmed BY198, only two give an Irish origin, one for Waterford and one for Laois - hardly a consensus.

For Larkin, Griffith's shows a concentration in both Oriel and Galway/Offaly. But there aren't any Larkins confirmed as BY198/A738 in either the surname project or the M222 project.

Even if I were to generously assume that your word is true with regard to these three families, this would still leave the dozen or so other surnames that run counter to your claim that BY198/A738 is a Midlands haplogroup.

Muireagain
08-18-2016, 12:18 AM
The single BY198 confirmed Morgan in the M222 project has a specific MDKA listed, and he lists that person as James Morgan b circa 1820 Louth. There are no other Morgans identified as BY198/A738 within the Morgan surname project. All the primary sources very clearly show that the Morgans are concentrated in Oriel, with a long history there. freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~muireagain/Ulster.htm

He is me and I am also the author of the web site. The O Muireagain of Ui Tuirtre belong to a different branch of DF49.

Have you tested for any of the branches below A738?

miiser
08-18-2016, 02:52 AM
He is me and I am also the author of the web site. The O Muireagain of Ui Tuirtre belong to a different branch of DF49.

Have you tested for any of the branches below A738?

Nice collection of research on your website. This gains you some credibility.

None of this Curley lineage have tested below BY198/A738.

The idea that Haplogroup XXX = Clan YYY is really not a valid way of analyzing these things. Haplogroups get scrambled up among different clans over time. This is especially true of haplogroups as old as BY198. It's not going to be limited to a single localized population. We should expect them to be fairly well distributed and scrambled among different clans and locales, just as M222 appears in various clans and locales.

This idea: that O Muireagain of Ui Tuirtre = Haplogroup YYY and your lineage of a different clan, O Muireagain of ??? = Haplogroup ZZZ . . . this is not a valid rationale, and has not been demonstrated to be an accurate description of any clan or haplogroup. Clans are not homogenous groups composed of a single genetically pure lineage. And, conversely, haplogroups (other than some of the very youngest that are only a few centuries old) are not confined to a single locale or clan. Claims such as Haplogroup XXX = Clan YYY - they make a nice simple story that is aesthetically pleasing. This appeals to genetic genealogy noobs who ask simple questions of the sort, "What ethnicity am I?" or "What clan do I belong to?", expecting equally simple answers. But this approach has no place within the messy reality of the actual data.

It's more probable that your Morgan lineage is associated with the same population as the other major DF49 haplogroup of Morgans, and your lineage got genetically spliced into the family via an NPE at some point in time during the 500+ years of history in Oriel.

Not knowing the details of your two Morgan aDNA matches, I can't really speak to this. Except I will say that, without a documented migration, there is really no way for you to know that their lineage in Galway represents the original location and yours represents an emigrant. It could just as well be the opposite. A two hundred year history in Galway is really not very long, considering the typical Irish surname has 500+ years of history. The family may easily have moved from Oriel to Galway prior to this, especially considering the well known history that many families made the southward migration from Ulster and Oriel to Connacht during the plantations.

You really should reconsider whatever reasoning led you to conclude that your Morgan lineage is not from Oriel. It looks like there is a large amount of evidence that suggests otherwise.

But again, this is not really relevant to the Curley family history anyways, as I have already pointed out. There is nothing about haplogroups and clan identity that excludes the possibility of your Morgan family of Haplogroup BY198 being from Connacht, and the Curley lineage of Haplogroup BY198 being from Oriel, given that fixed surnames are on the order of 500-600 years old, but Haplogroup BY198 is on the order of 1000 years old.

GogMagog
08-29-2016, 04:47 PM
I think I am the Egan of Waterford sample. Spent the weekend digging and ought to amend to Tipperary.

miiser
08-29-2016, 08:48 PM
I think I am the Egan of Waterford sample. Spent the weekend digging and ought to amend to Tipperary.

Thanks for the information, good to know. It seems like BY198 is pretty widely spread throughout Ireland.

GogMagog
08-30-2016, 02:57 PM
We seem to originate on the banks of the Shannon 910 AD.

Muireagain
08-30-2016, 04:04 PM
We are a branch of S660, which suggests we are a branch of the Dal Cuinn. Other branches of S660 match Cenel Eoghain, Cenel Conaill, Cenel Fiachach and the Ui Briuin. An O Muireagain (O'Morgan) family located to the west of the Shannon were the O Muireagain of Cenel Tadhgain, said to be branch of the Cenel Maine.

miiser
08-30-2016, 08:22 PM
We are a branch of S660, which suggests we are a branch of the Dal Cuinn. Other branches of S660 match Cenel Eoghain, Cenel Conaill, Cenel Fiachach and the Ui Briuin. An O Muireagain (O'Morgan) family located to the west of the Shannon were the O Muireagain of Cenel Tadhgain, said to be branch of the Cenel Maine.

S660 makes up the majority of M222. There are well over 500 members of S660 within the M222 project, with hundreds of different surnames. S660 predates the formation of historical Irish clans by centuries. To cherry pick a handful of surnames within this group and try to fabricate a clan pattern from it - this is rather fanciful and artificial. You attempt to equate ancient haplogroups with specific clans. But this is like seeing shapes in clouds. Everyone who looks at the data can find a different clan, depending on which surnames they cherry pick. But it's really just an ambiguous, shapeless cloud.

Haplogroups begin to resolve into specific clans around the time range of 1200-1500 AD. Everything older than that is a garbled mess. M222, S660, and BY198 all predate this range, and are all distributed among numerous surnames and clans, spread throughout all of Ireland. None of them are comprised of a small number of surnames derived from a single clan. This is what the actual data says.

If you wish to identify haplogroups with clans, I think you'll have to look at the subclades of BY198. But there aren't enough tested samples yet to do anything at that level.

Dubhthach
08-30-2016, 11:01 PM
We are a branch of S660, which suggests we are a branch of the Dal Cuinn. Other branches of S660 match Cenel Eoghain, Cenel Conaill, Cenel Fiachach and the Ui Briuin. An O Muireagain (O'Morgan) family located to the west of the Shannon were the O Muireagain of Cenel Tadhgain, said to be branch of the Cenel Maine.

Early days for BY198 I imagine, how many have done BigY? 4 to 6? (4 on Alex's page) In comparison over 70 have done BigY/NGS in the parallel clade of DF85, not really surprisingly given DF85 shows up in about third of all DF105+/S660+ men who did M222 bundle testing.

Of the BY198+ how many have submitted their results to yfull does anyone know?

From a Cenél Maine point of view you really need some sampling of men from midlands with surname Fox/Kearney for example as a comparison.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/muinter-tadgain.png

Muireagain
08-31-2016, 03:53 PM
There are so few Fox/Kearney conform to the NWI modal as to suggest that the O Catharnaigh of Cenel Taghain are not M222+.

I can go in depth into the sub-branches of DF85, S588 and A260 can be correllated with Cenel Conail, Cenel Eoghain and Ui Briuin. ZS8379 is identified with Cenel Fiachach principlely because O Maolmhuadh from the midlands are positive plus for it, along with other associated surnames, we do not yet have the same amount of branching as within DF85, S588 and A260.

As DF85, S588, A260 and ZS8379 are branches of S660 suggests that it contains the Dal Cuinn. And as BY198/A735 is also a branch of S660 suggest that it is a branch of Dal Cuinn.

The results of BY198 are as following:

Four Morgans (two born and still live in Co. Galway)
One Larkin (reflecting the largest cluster of Larkins within the DNA project (typically co. Tipperary), the second largest is form a different M222 branch)
One Murphy (ancestor from co. Galway)
Three Dunn
One Goggin (ancestor from co. Waterford)
One Higgins
One Fogerty
One Kimble
One Johnson
One O’Brien
One Bryant
One Connor (ancestor from co. Laois)
One Curley (ancestor from co. Galway)
One Stuart
One Heaney
One Guinn
One Gallagher (not of the O Gallaghair of Cenel Aedh of Cenel Conaill)
Three Knowles (common US origin)
One Egan (reflecting the largest cluster of Egans within the DNA project, typically co. Tipperary)

What is not shown on Alex’s web site is that the Larkin and Heaney belong to their own branches of BY198. Gallagher (Big-Y testee) is A8815+ as with Morgan, Quin and the sub-branch formed by Egan and Knowles.

The most likely origin for a A8815+ Morgans would be the O Muireagain of Cenel Maine:

From John’s http://clanmaclochlainn.com/uineill.htm

Genelach hUa Muiricean: Agda mac Cathail m. Aeda m. Muircertaig m. Muricen m. Cernacan m. Tadcan. (Cathal 7 Tadg 7 Aigredan 7 Cualluctan 7 Cernachan cuic meic Aeda hUi Muricen insin).

Potentially a A8815+ Gallagher (Big-Y only) then could be from O Gabhalacha (an alternative plural form to O Gabhalaigh)
Genelach hUa nGabalaig: Diarmait mac Con Chacrichi m. Sitriucca m. Con Chaillea m. Bressail m. Amalgaid m. Bressail m. Ceternaig m. Gabalaig m. Tadcan.

Potentially a A8815+ Egan 49625 could be from O Aghain (the diminutive of O Agha, a surname from Aedh)
Genelach hUa Agda: Gilla-na-noem mac Flaind m. Muiredaig m. Aeda m. Cuind m. Congalaig m. Cathalan m. Cernachan m. Tadcan.

Potentially a A8815+ Guinn 231979 could be from O Cuinn and be from:
Cuind m. Congalaig m. Cathalan m. Cernachan m. Tadcan, stemming from the same above pedigree.

The Knowles could be related to 1659 Knowlans a leading family in the area home ot Keegans and once home to Cenel Taghain.

A738+ Duinn (N2231, 22549, and 193976) is potentially from O Duibhgennain and Cenel Tadgain (and maybe A8815+?)
Genelach Ui Duibhgennain: Maol Muire Mac Duilbh m. Dubhthaigh Oig m. Dubhthaig Mhoir m. Maoil Echlaind m. Matha glais m. Fearghail m. Ferghail Mhuimhnigh m. Lucias Ancuire m. Poil an Fhiona m. Pilip na hInnse m. Naomhtuc m. Duibgind m. Tadhgain m. Maoil Bennachtain m. Bruite m. Colla m. Congalaigh et cetera ut supra.

A738+ Bryant N55271 or A738+ O'Brien 271908 are potentially from O Braoin and not Cenel Tadgain (and maybe A8815-?)
De genelogia Bregamine .i. Ui Bhraoin: Echtigern mac Sitriuga m. Floind m. Echtigernd m. Brain m. Ruairc m. Flandcadha m. Domnaill m. Crimthaind m. Brenaind m. Briain m. Maine m. Neill Naoigiallaigh.

miiser
08-31-2016, 09:22 PM
There are so few Fox/Kearney conform to the NWI modal as to suggest that the O Catharnaigh of Cenel Taghain are not M222+.

I can go in depth into the sub-branches of DF85, S588 and A260 can be correllated with Cenel Conail, Cenel Eoghain and Ui Briuin. ZS8379 is identified with Cenel Fiachach principlely because O Maolmhuadh from the midlands are positive plus for it, along with other associated surnames, we do not yet have the same amount of branching as within DF85, S588 and A260.

As DF85, S588, A260 and ZS8379 are branches of S660 suggests that it contains the Dal Cuinn. And as BY198/A735 is also a branch of S660 suggest that it is a branch of Dal Cuinn.

The results of BY198 are as following:

Four Morgans (two born and still live in Co. Galway)
One Larkin (reflecting the largest cluster of Larkins within the DNA project (typically co. Tipperary), the second largest is form a different M222 branch)
One Murphy (ancestor from co. Galway)
Three Dunn
One Goggin (ancestor from co. Waterford)
One Higgins
One Fogerty
One Kimble
One Johnson
One O’Brien
One Bryant
One Connor (ancestor from co. Laois)
One Curley (ancestor from co. Galway)
One Stuart
One Heaney
One Guinn
One Gallagher (not of the O Gallaghair of Cenel Aedh of Cenel Conaill)
Three Knowles (common US origin)
One Egan (reflecting the largest cluster of Egans within the DNA project, typically co. Tipperary)

What is not shown on Alex’s web site is that the Larkin and Heaney belong to their own branches of BY198. Gallagher (Big-Y testee) is A8815+ as with Morgan, Quin and the sub-branch formed by Egan and Knowles.

The most likely origin for a A8815+ Morgans would be the O Muireagain of Cenel Maine:

From John’s http://clanmaclochlainn.com/uineill.htm

Genelach hUa Muiricean: Agda mac Cathail m. Aeda m. Muircertaig m. Muricen m. Cernacan m. Tadcan. (Cathal 7 Tadg 7 Aigredan 7 Cualluctan 7 Cernachan cuic meic Aeda hUi Muricen insin).

Potentially a A8815+ Gallagher (Big-Y only) then could be from O Gabhalacha (an alternative plural form to O Gabhalaigh)
Genelach hUa nGabalaig: Diarmait mac Con Chacrichi m. Sitriucca m. Con Chaillea m. Bressail m. Amalgaid m. Bressail m. Ceternaig m. Gabalaig m. Tadcan.

Potentially a A8815+ Egan 49625 could be from O Aghain (the diminutive of O Agha, a surname from Aedh)
Genelach hUa Agda: Gilla-na-noem mac Flaind m. Muiredaig m. Aeda m. Cuind m. Congalaig m. Cathalan m. Cernachan m. Tadcan.

Potentially a A8815+ Guinn 231979 could be from O Cuinn and be from:
Cuind m. Congalaig m. Cathalan m. Cernachan m. Tadcan, stemming from the same above pedigree.

The Knowles could be related to 1659 Knowlans a leading family in the area home ot Keegans and once home to Cenel Taghain.

A738+ Duinn (N2231, 22549, and 193976) is potentially from O Duibhgennain and Cenel Tadgain (and maybe A8815+?)
Genelach Ui Duibhgennain: Maol Muire Mac Duilbh m. Dubhthaigh Oig m. Dubhthaig Mhoir m. Maoil Echlaind m. Matha glais m. Fearghail m. Ferghail Mhuimhnigh m. Lucias Ancuire m. Poil an Fhiona m. Pilip na hInnse m. Naomhtuc m. Duibgind m. Tadhgain m. Maoil Bennachtain m. Bruite m. Colla m. Congalaigh et cetera ut supra.

A738+ Bryant N55271 or A738+ O'Brien 271908 are potentially from O Braoin and not Cenel Tadgain (and maybe A8815-?)
De genelogia Bregamine .i. Ui Bhraoin: Echtigern mac Sitriuga m. Floind m. Echtigernd m. Brain m. Ruairc m. Flandcadha m. Domnaill m. Crimthaind m. Brenaind m. Briain m. Maine m. Neill Naoigiallaigh.

And this is what I'm talking about with the cherry picking of data to see shapes in clouds. You deliberately discard Morgan from Louth as an unwanted data point in favor of the two from Galway, because Louth doesn't support your imaginary pattern. You neglect to mention that of confirmed BY198, two Egans give their location specifically as Waterford and Laois, none give Tipperary. The supposedly BY198 Larkin could just as well be A259 by their STR signatures. And I've already told you there's also a Curley from Louth in addition to the one from Galway. You assign the Morgan, Larkin, Gallagher, and Egan to specific clans, without any specific knowledge to support this, even though M222 STR signatures are notoriously ambiguous. You're making assumptions based on "could be"s to fabricate a pattern that isn't there.

Dubhthach
08-31-2016, 09:58 PM
There are so few Fox/Kearney conform to the NWI modal as to suggest that the O Catharnaigh of Cenel Taghain are not M222+.

I can go in depth into the sub-branches of DF85, S588 and A260 can be correllated with Cenel Conail, Cenel Eoghain and Ui Briuin. ZS8379 is identified with Cenel Fiachach principlely because O Maolmhuadh from the midlands are positive plus for it, along with other associated surnames, we do not yet have the same amount of branching as within DF85, S588 and A260.

As DF85, S588, A260 and ZS8379 are branches of S660 suggests that it contains the Dal Cuinn. And as BY198/A735 is also a branch of S660 suggest that it is a branch of Dal Cuinn.

The results of BY198 are as following:

Four Morgans (two born and still live in Co. Galway)
One Larkin (reflecting the largest cluster of Larkins within the DNA project (typically co. Tipperary), the second largest is form a different M222 branch)
One Murphy (ancestor from co. Galway)
Three Dunn
One Goggin (ancestor from co. Waterford)
One Higgins
One Fogerty
One Kimble
One Johnson
One O’Brien
One Bryant
One Connor (ancestor from co. Laois)
One Curley (ancestor from co. Galway)
One Stuart
One Heaney
One Guinn
One Gallagher (not of the O Gallaghair of Cenel Aedh of Cenel Conaill)
Three Knowles (common US origin)
One Egan (reflecting the largest cluster of Egans within the DNA project, typically co. Tipperary)

What is not shown on Alex’s web site is that the Larkin and Heaney belong to their own branches of BY198. Gallagher (Big-Y testee) is A8815+ as with Morgan, Quin and the sub-branch formed by Egan and Knowles.

The most likely origin for a A8815+ Morgans would be the O Muireagain of Cenel Maine:

From John’s http://clanmaclochlainn.com/uineill.htm

Genelach hUa Muiricean: Agda mac Cathail m. Aeda m. Muircertaig m. Muricen m. Cernacan m. Tadcan. (Cathal 7 Tadg 7 Aigredan 7 Cualluctan 7 Cernachan cuic meic Aeda hUi Muricen insin).

Potentially a A8815+ Gallagher (Big-Y only) then could be from O Gabhalacha (an alternative plural form to O Gabhalaigh)
Genelach hUa nGabalaig: Diarmait mac Con Chacrichi m. Sitriucca m. Con Chaillea m. Bressail m. Amalgaid m. Bressail m. Ceternaig m. Gabalaig m. Tadcan.

Potentially a A8815+ Egan 49625 could be from O Aghain (the diminutive of O Agha, a surname from Aedh)
Genelach hUa Agda: Gilla-na-noem mac Flaind m. Muiredaig m. Aeda m. Cuind m. Congalaig m. Cathalan m. Cernachan m. Tadcan.

Potentially a A8815+ Guinn 231979 could be from O Cuinn and be from:
Cuind m. Congalaig m. Cathalan m. Cernachan m. Tadcan, stemming from the same above pedigree.

The Knowles could be related to 1659 Knowlans a leading family in the area home ot Keegans and once home to Cenel Taghain.

A738+ Duinn (N2231, 22549, and 193976) is potentially from O Duibhgennain and Cenel Tadgain (and maybe A8815+?)
Genelach Ui Duibhgennain: Maol Muire Mac Duilbh m. Dubhthaigh Oig m. Dubhthaig Mhoir m. Maoil Echlaind m. Matha glais m. Fearghail m. Ferghail Mhuimhnigh m. Lucias Ancuire m. Poil an Fhiona m. Pilip na hInnse m. Naomhtuc m. Duibgind m. Tadhgain m. Maoil Bennachtain m. Bruite m. Colla m. Congalaigh et cetera ut supra.

A738+ Bryant N55271 or A738+ O'Brien 271908 are potentially from O Braoin and not Cenel Tadgain (and maybe A8815-?)
De genelogia Bregamine .i. Ui Bhraoin: Echtigern mac Sitriuga m. Floind m. Echtigernd m. Brain m. Ruairc m. Flandcadha m. Domnaill m. Crimthaind m. Brenaind m. Briain m. Maine m. Neill Naoigiallaigh.

Jaski has Ua Briain as been kings of Bregmaine, obviously phonetically Braoin and Briain have near identical pronunciation in Irish, so not really surprising to think of -> Breen -> Brien.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/sil-ronain.png

What's intersting is seeing a number of Egan's who appear to be BY198+/A738+ having Daly's as close matches, interesting given Daly's alleged genealogy as part of the Cenél Maine -- none have tested for A738/BY198 as of let as far as I know.

With regards to Fox/Kearney, I've just identified a 37 STR M269 Kearney who has the infamous "Niall sticker", based in Ireland, I'm gonna see if they are interested in doing the M222 bundle test.

As you know we have at least one DF85+/DF97- confirmed Gallagher, he recently ordered BigY, so it should be interesting to see how he falls with regards to the close on 70+ DF85+ men who have done BigY so far. As far as I recall his MDKA is in Donegal which matches what we know about DF85.

Muireagain
09-01-2016, 12:07 PM
And this is what I'm talking about with the cherry picking of data to see shapes in clouds. You deliberately discard Morgan from Louth as an unwanted data point in favor of the two from Galway, because Louth doesn't support your imaginary pattern. You neglect to mention that of confirmed BY198, two Egans give their location specifically as Waterford and Laois, none give Tipperary. The supposedly BY198 Larkin could just as well be A259 by their STR signatures. And I've already told you there's also a Curley from Louth in addition to the one from Galway. You assign the Morgan, Larkin, Gallagher, and Egan to specific clans, without any specific knowledge to support this, even though M222 STR signatures are notoriously ambiguous. You're making assumptions based on "could be"s to fabricate a pattern that isn't there.

Yes, I deliberately did not mention a Morgan from Louth because I have since discovered that there no evidence that MY Morgan ancestor actually came from Louth as I had previous thought! Then you are refering to BY198 Morgan from Louth you are refering to me!
BY198 Larkin is unpublished result of the Big-Y result taken by Larkin project administrator. The Larkins are not A259.
What is the Louth Curley kit number? I have checked the Curley and M222 projects and find no second BY198 Curley, nor do I find him in Big-Y results.

Muireagain
09-01-2016, 12:17 PM
As you know we have at least one DF85+/DF97- confirmed Gallagher, he recently ordered BigY, so it should be interesting to see how he falls with regards to the close on 70+ DF85+ men who have done BigY so far. As far as I recall his MDKA is in Donegal which matches what we know about DF85.

The one that forward his Big-Y to Alex is S668>22275356-G-C, he is the second to be S668+ and DF97- and the third Gallagher to be S668*.

Given the Gallaghers are spliting from the DF97+ population at S668, it reinforces the idea that DF97+ represents the Sil Luigdeich mac Setna population.

miiser
09-01-2016, 12:59 PM
Yes, I deliberately did not mention a Morgan from Louth because I have since discovered that there no evidence that MY Morgan ancestor actually came from Louth as I had previous thought! Then you are refering to BY198 Morgan from Louth you are refering to me!
BY198 Larkin is unpublished result of the Big-Y result taken by Larkin project administrator. The Larkins are not A259.
What is the Louth Curley kit number? I have checked the Curley and M222 projects and find no second BY198 Curley, nor do I find him in Big-Y results.

Why don't you update the MDKA of the FTDNA profile if you now believe it's wrong? The lineage was reported as being traced to Louth at some point in time in the past. Did you just make that up previously? This doesn't make sense to me. Discovering a relationship with two other Morgans of Galway does not negate a connection to Louth. You seem to be flip flopping back and forth in your origin assignments, trying to make things work out so that every haplogroup fits into nice, neat clans. But this is not how genealogy works.

The Curley from Louth is kit # 388134. You can view all the results at the main surname webpage curleysurname.weebly.com (an external webpage), linked from FTDNA's page. In addition to the Curley from Louth, there are a couple more from Galway and Roscommon. They are all listed under "Group 4" of the project.

You seem to have an awful lot of secret knowledge. You claim to be the owner of the Morgan kit in question, and claim it is from Galway. But the FTDNA profile does not agree with what you claim. There doesn't appear to be any rational basis for this belief, other than wanting to make BY198 a Midlands clan. You claim to have knowledge of the Larkins' terminal SNP. I've found one vague mention of a Larkin being BY198+ in the world families forum. But it doesn't say anything about which specific kit or their location of origin. The writer appears to assume that all the kits they've labeled as "Type 1" belong to the same haplogroup. But this is doubtful given the ambiguity of M222 STR signatures. This is all very iffy.

miiser
09-01-2016, 02:38 PM
This discussion has expanded in scope way beyond the original topic, becoming a discussion of the BY198 haplogroup. I'm going to start a new thread for this specific topic, and suggest we continue the discussion there.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8441-BY198-A738-Haplogroup-Clan-Association-and-Geographic-Distribution

Colk
09-16-2018, 01:06 AM
Newcomer to this interesting forum. I am an Aussie Keegan, Family Tree DNA R-BY198, 742967, with my Keegan ancestor coming from Ballymacormick, Longford in 1834 where his father was a farmer.
I am awaiting results from BigY-500, due in November.

GogMagog
09-21-2018, 03:11 PM
I guess we are related!