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Scarlet Ibis
08-05-2012, 09:30 PM
Made this thread so that we can share any updates going on with U152. :)

Solothurn
08-06-2012, 12:03 PM
Does anybody know if U152* types would benefit from the new Geno 2.0 chip test for finding a new SNP??

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/about/

Thanks

Scarlet Ibis
08-07-2012, 01:03 AM
Does anybody know if U152* types would benefit from the new Geno 2.0 chip test for finding a new SNP??

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/about/

Thanks


Good question, Solothurn. I can't answer for certain about how valuable it would be to U152, but I will say there's one thing that's gotten me particularly interested. Richard Rocca, the co-admin of the FTDNA U152 Project, seems to have been cited in (or about) an email from Dr. Spencer Wells to "Your Genetic Genealogist."

http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com/2012/07/a-short-update-from-spencer-wells-on.html


...the Y-markers on the Geno 2.0 chip come from a variety of sources. The majority are entirely new, and are drawn from the work of our team and collaborators:

~3500 from Chris Tyler-Smith, drawn primarily from 1K Genomes data
~3500 from Li Jin, discovered by deep sequencing in East Asian populations from a variety of haplogroups
~5000 from Paolo Francalacci and Sergio Tofanelli, discovered by deep sequencing in Sardinian populations from a variety of haplogroups

The rest are drawn from the ISOGG tree, FTDNA, Hammer and other available sources*. The final number of working assays for the rare markers (and thus those most likely to be of interest to the genealogical community) is yet to be determined, as we simply don't have access to all of the the positive controls necessary. This is where the genetic genealogy community can really help, by vetting the rare markers in samples with known phylogenetic positions... I see this as an opportunity for the community to take an active role in helping us to build the definitive Y-chromosome tree. It will also likely yield many markers with extraordinary specificity for family-defining lineages that will be important for genetic genealogy.

*Among these sources are citizen scientists and FTDNA customers: Gregory Magoon, Richard Rocca, David F Reynolds, Bonnie Schrack and Peter M Op den Velde Boots who assisted in these discoveries by mining public sources (like 1000 Genomes). The many admins and individuals who have worked toward WTY SNPs and, of course, Dr. Hammer also deserve mention.

Solothurn
08-07-2012, 01:50 PM
Many thanks Scarlet.

U152 now has a couple of 'new' subclades, Z36 and Z56 being the major two!

I am in the A1a group: U152* YCAII=19,22 + dys447=27 (L2- Z36- Z56- (dys492=12)

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=yresults

SNPs Z42/Z43 and Z192 were on the cusp, but think FTDNA are struggling to get past the primer stage (I assume anyway). Or are too busy with other projects to concentrate on these!!

Anyway to address my earlier question: I am an 'early' FGS 2009 and my Genbank sample is used on the phylotree!

http://www.phylotree.org/tree/subtree_R0.htm for H1c3b (Helga :) )
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/GU289555

Owing to this I hope my sample was 'vetted' and I get the free chip 2 test. I have heard 23 WTY samples were vetted too and hope if I wasn't vetted, Steve Weir's (U152* WTY) was and gets a free test.

Obviously if anybody's kit is used instead of mine I wish them a successful outcome!

I will email the admins of the U152 project and ask for their input :)

Solothurn
08-12-2012, 10:45 AM
So how do we know if our kit has been chosen for the free test (vetted)? There is no reference to a FTDNA kit on the order page!

so I emailed FTDNA with Spencer Wells' statement:

Reply:

"Thank you for your email. After speaking with our president, Bennett
Greenspan, I have determined that a handful of customers who took FGS/FMS
(about 300 total) along with a smaller number of WTY participants will be
receiving Geno 2.0. These participants will be receiving a letter in the
coming weeks, but I do not have any information as to who will be included
among these participants."

Also Richard Rocca (U152 admin) has said:

"I think it is very important for U152, and especially U152* folks to test with the Geno 2.0 product as 5,000 new SNPs from Sardinian population are included in the chip. I2a1 is by far the most frequent halpogroup, but R1b (and U152) is second."

Best

S.

Solothurn
08-21-2012, 05:18 PM
I have heard from FTDNA and unfortunately I am not on the free test list!

Scarlet Ibis
08-21-2012, 09:23 PM
I have to say I'm a bit disappointed to hear it. Especially since I don't know if they're going to have any other U152 reference samples from England. Makes me a bit less enthusiastic about it, to be honest..

Solothurn
09-06-2012, 12:29 PM
An English U152* (me :) ) just ordered the new 2.0 test!!



I have to say I'm a bit disappointed to hear it. Especially since I don't know if they're going to have any other U152 reference samples from England. Makes me a bit less enthusiastic about it, to be honest..

Scarlet Ibis
09-07-2012, 12:34 AM
Can you post your results when you get them? :)

I'm still considering it, but I've got some big expenses coming up, so it will realistically be at least a few months until I get the money.

Solothurn
09-07-2012, 12:16 PM
Certainly.

I just have the problem of getting the kit (when it is released) back to Houston. My FTDNA kit took three weeks last time. I may have to use a specialist courier or risk loss or delay. This happened with a 23andMe kit. It turned up three months later, but I had ordered a replacement by then!

It is frustrating that FTDNA have my DNA at their labs and yet they won't allow this to be used. I have heard that the new 2.0 test will replace the 'old' deep clade test!




.
Can you post your results when you get them? :)

I'm still considering it, but I've got some big expenses coming up, so it will realistically be at least a few months until I get the money.

Solothurn
09-08-2012, 11:16 AM
Latest results/reports for U152 (many thanks to Steve Gilbert, U152 admin)

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=results

CelticGerman
09-08-2012, 09:39 PM
Hi, I'm a new Member here. A kind of refugee from DNA Forums. "Solothurn" sounds familiar to me. May I start with a question: What additional information can we expect from Geno 2.0? Is it really useful to spend money for it? The few information on the website in question is not as promising as that.

I am U152-Z36 (oldest known ancestor married in Friedrichroda/Thuringia in 1657). Additional information hints to origins in Alsace around 1550. In the Phylogenetic network of Z36 haplotypes (Tibor Fehér) I am E10249, "close" to French and Italians.

Solothurn
09-09-2012, 11:36 AM
Hi CelticGerman

I am very pleased to see you on here :)

I will ask Steve Gilbert and report back!

Edit:

Steve's reply:


It will be very interesting to have this member as he will be the first Z36 to order it!

Roberta Estes blog resume it very well.

http://dna-explained.com/?s=genographic&submit=Search

I think as does Steve for $199 it has to be worth a shot!

CelticGerman
09-09-2012, 06:31 PM
Hi Solothurn,
Thanks for the information. It becomes clear now. Obviously a step or two or three forward.

Best

Kwheaton
09-09-2012, 09:49 PM
Anyone here L2*?

I'm hoping we get some news soon on any new downstream SNPs.

Project Admin. for Wheaton Surname Project

robertb
09-10-2012, 09:35 AM
Anyone here L2*?

I'm hoping we get some news soon on any new downstream SNPs.

Project Admin. for Wheaton Surname Project

I don't think there has been anyhthing new in L2 for a while.
The latest U152 and Subclades Phlogenetic Tree, dated 9 September.

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bwo12PDVxPwwNTM3NDg0MzktZjBkZC00ZWVhLWExY zktMDc2YTZkMjY3ODdl&hl=en_GB

Villicus
09-19-2012, 01:26 AM
Looks like I have a lot of catching up to do.

GailT
09-19-2012, 02:39 AM
Anyone here L2*?


My paternal line is L2, although there are a couple of new SNPs that I have not tested for yet. I'm also wondering if it would be worthwhile to order Geno 2 for L2 now, or maybe wait for the next update that might include more L2 SNPs. My paternal line is Johannes Crauss born in Ronshausen, Hesse in 1751. Johannes' son Adam Crauss was in Napoleon's "Grand Army" that invaded Russia in 1812, and Adam was one of the few who survived the retreat. He returned to Ronshausen and became a carpenter, which makes me wonder if he might have been a carpenter/bridge builder during the war, and perhaps that is how he survived.

Gail

robertb
10-02-2012, 10:05 AM
My paternal line is L2, although there are a couple of new SNPs that I have not tested for yet. I'm also wondering if it would be worthwhile to order Geno 2 for L2 now, or maybe wait for the next update that might include more L2 SNPs. My paternal line is Johannes Crauss born in Ronshausen, Hesse in 1751. Johannes' son Adam Crauss was in Napoleon's "Grand Army" that invaded Russia in 1812, and Adam was one of the few who survived the retreat. He returned to Ronshausen and became a carpenter, which makes me wonder if he might have been a carpenter/bridge builder during the war, and perhaps that is how he survived.

Gail

I think it would be worth ordering Geno 2.0.
From everything I have read this test will replace the Deep Clade tests and also inlcudes all snps up to late last year so if there are some you have not tested I imagine Geno 2.0 will do it for you.
You could always defer making the decison until results come out for those who have rushed in (like me) and ordered it, and you can see what the results look like.
If you do order the test tell Steve Gilbert (email address on U152 Project page) as he is compiling a list of those who have ordered the test.

CelticGerman
10-03-2012, 08:02 PM
I've ordered Geno 2.0 today. Let's wait and see.

Scarlet Ibis
10-04-2012, 04:32 AM
I've ordered Geno 2.0 today. Let's wait and see.

I look forward to seeing your results in the future if you want to post them. :)

Solothurn
10-04-2012, 05:22 AM
I thought this may be of interest to some of you!

L159.2 in U152!

A long shot but just ordered L159.2 SNP. It has been found in a U152*
223929 Colangelo on the U152 project.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=yresults

He shows as R1b1a2a1a1b4f but this is not an error, he is U152+!
It is found within L21, but he has this SNP too!

VinceT
10-06-2012, 07:25 AM
Interesting.

L159.2 is officially beneath R-Z255 on the ISOGG Y-SNP tree, but there seems to be a recurrent instance of L159 under R-L21xZ255 that we've dubbed L159.3 on the ISOGG R1b SNPs under Investigation page. So a recurrent instance of L159 under R-U152 would likely be called L159.4. It will be interesting to see how the YCC handles this SNP in their upcoming update.

Solothurn
10-07-2012, 01:47 PM
They have kept his 'R1b1a2a1a1b4f' designation when he is clearly U152+.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=ysnp

He is even in the L159.2 in L21 project too!
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L159.2/default.aspx?section=ysnp

He cannot be in both U152 AND L21.

The above page is titled R-Z255 and Subclades Project - Y-DNA SNP
Some of the members are Z255+ and some are Z255-, I don't understand this!




Interesting.

L159.2 is officially beneath R-Z255 on the ISOGG Y-SNP tree, but there seems to be a recurrent instance of L159 under R-L21xZ255 that we've dubbed L159.3 on the ISOGG R1b SNPs under Investigation page. So a recurrent instance of L159 under R-U152 would likely be called L159.4. It will be interesting to see how the YCC handles this SNP in their upcoming update.

ChrisR
10-07-2012, 10:33 PM
You can find some useful information about the reliability of recurrent SNPs here:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-L250/default.aspx?section=news look for: L250, M68, recurrent, to Y gene conversion
http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?p=4694#p4694 (3rd abstract, Niederstätter et al)

Latest communication with some researchers let me think that we have some regions in Y-DNA and SNPs in that segments, who are unreliable and think we must focus on this topic to get a strong SNP phylogeny by removing may some well established SNPs.

Solothurn
10-14-2012, 10:42 AM
Thanks Chris

I was 'going through' my matches at FTDNA and found a 31 of 37 match from Bolzano/Trento region in Italy. At 67 we are a GD of 13!

He has no SNP result as yet so I am not jumping to conclusions.

He tested in 2009 so I will be kicking myself if he turns out to be a U152*

Anyway I will keep you all posted!

Edit: He has a 67 match with a GD of 9 who is L2+ so he may be L2 not U152*:\



You can find some useful information about the reliability of recurrent SNPs here:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-L250/default.aspx?section=news look for: L250, M68, recurrent, to Y gene conversion
http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?p=4694#p4694 (3rd abstract, Niederstätter et al)

Latest communication with some researchers let me think that we have some regions in Y-DNA and SNPs in that segments, who are unreliable and think we must focus on this topic to get a strong SNP phylogeny by removing may some well established SNPs.

Solothurn
10-16-2012, 10:17 AM
Results in: L159.2-


I thought this may be of interest to some of you!

L159.2 in U152!

A long shot but just ordered L159.2 SNP. It has been found in a U152*
223929 Colangelo on the U152 project.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=yresults

He shows as R1b1a2a1a1b4f but this is not an error, he is U152+!
It is found within L21, but he has this SNP too!

ChrisR
10-29-2012, 10:38 AM
Here some more interesting info about X-to-Y-gene-conversion from MolGen (http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?p=4278#p4278):


I have seen claims on the web that copy mutations at palindromes, which are joining of mirror segments followed by "correction" of a difference, is the explanation for Y copy changes.
Thomas Krahn discusses this also:

http://www.dna-fingerprint.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=9

Do you know of a published discussion of this in a refereed journal?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2706966/
---
The rate of X-to-Y conversion (per base per generation) is four to five orders of magnitude more rapid than the rate of Y-chromosomal base-substitution mutation...
---

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2833382/
---
In October, our group presented evidence for X-to-Y gene conversion within the VCY (MIM 400012) genes,3 a region that lies within the male-specific portion of the Y chromosome (MSY) and is different from the PRKY region. Thus, both studies indicate that a new form of genetic exchange occurs between the sex-specific portions of X and Y and that this process has been active in recent human evolution.
---

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/3/714.full
---
On the other hand, clear evidence for the VCY genes in the P8 palindrome having acted as an acceptor of X-to-Y gene conversion was obtained. A rate of 1.8 × 10−7 X-to-Y conversions/bp/year was estimated for these genes.
---


I was 'going through' my matches at FTDNA and found a 31 of 37 match from Bolzano/Trento region in Italy. At 67 we are a GD of 13!
Can you give me his kit#? I like to look if he makes part of the Alpine DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Alpine_DNA_Project_AlpGen_Genealogy/).

Solothurn
10-29-2012, 01:19 PM
Sure, he is E8413

We added him when we found the Alpgen project. If he is U152+ hopefully he will be able to order the L2 SNP test!

My L159.2 came in negative, no surprises really :)




Can you give me his kit#? I like to look if he makes part of the Alpine DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Alpine_DNA_Project_AlpGen_Genealogy/).

Solothurn
11-24-2012, 12:27 PM
223929 Colangelo is also on the GenoChip 'tracker' now :)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ago12PDVxPwwdGVOQWNuSlZad3gycHJOZFloeE85b 2c#gid=0

Solothurn
11-26-2012, 10:57 AM
Steve Gilbert updated the latest U152 phylogenetic tree including the latest GenoChip 2.0 SNPs (image attached)

If the image is too small I can only suggest downloading it from

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=results

@ Phylogenetic Trees

U152 and Subclades Phylogenetic Tree by Steve Gilbert, Richard Rocca & Tbor Fehér *Updated November 2012*

Solothurn
01-22-2013, 12:28 PM
His L2 result is L2+ as expected :\


Thanks Chris

I was 'going through' my matches at FTDNA and found a 31 of 37 match from Bolzano/Trento region in Italy. At 67 we are a GD of 13!

He has no SNP result as yet so I am not jumping to conclusions.

He tested in 2009 so I will be kicking myself if he turns out to be a U152*

Anyway I will keep you all posted!

Edit: He has a 67 match with a GD of 9 who is L2+ so he may be L2 not U152*:\

Scarlet Ibis
01-23-2013, 06:49 AM
Ah well, so much for that. Thanks for the update.

Solothurn
01-24-2013, 05:16 PM
I have 'heard' three of the five U152* in Geno are Z192- !!
If Z193 is above Z192, I do not know if they are also Z193-. I will ask Steve.

Steve says he has yet to go through the CST, PF and F series for the U152* but I don't know if this will be fruitful! :)

Solothurn
01-28-2013, 02:04 PM
a U152* has just lost his * as he is PF4363+ on the Nat Geo 2 chip test.

kit 24162 on the project!

CelticGerman
02-13-2013, 11:21 AM
I have my Geno 2.0 results. Nothing new: I'm R-Z36.

Solothurn
02-13-2013, 04:16 PM
UPDATE!

Three former U152* now have 'new' SNPs in Geno

Claxon PF4363+, also found in haplogroup I.
Presley CTS7193+, also found in haplogroup J.
Fox F1493+, also found in haplogroup C.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

CelticGerman
02-14-2013, 06:06 AM
Steve Gilbert has found three new SNPs in my GENO 2.0 data:

U152> Z36> CTS188 / CTS4333 / CTS7958

Scarlet Ibis
02-14-2013, 06:38 AM
So overall, would you all say the Geno 2.0 is worth it?

CelticGerman
02-14-2013, 06:19 PM
Yes, as far as the three new SNPs found in my data are concerned. The rest not really. They consider me close to Brits and Germans, I am Northern German. Mt haplo was H and is still H without any subgroup. My Neanderthal and Denisovan is low, ok. All this is interesting and probably exciting for somebody who has never been tested before. I have participated in many other tests and Geno 2.0 results are more a confirmation than something new. By the way, Eurogenes/Dodecad etc are much more advanced in the area of admixture analysis. I have transfered my data to FTDNA and in my haplotree many SNPs changed to the green color very quickly. I have the feeling my Y line has become more solid somehow. And the new SNPs are a step forward. Until now nobody else has been tested positiv for these SNPs, but sooner or later it may explain the path of my ancestors of the paternal line in a better way.

Solothurn
04-26-2013, 04:00 PM
PF4363 has become available at FTDNA on their advanced SNP orders.

I don't know whether to order it or save up for the Geno 2 chip!!

One U152* member, Parker kit 28112 also has PF4363+ plus 25 other SNPS!!!

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bwo12PDVxPwwV01PbXBBbkxIQ3c/edit?pli=1




a U152* has just lost his * as he is PF4363+ on the Nat Geo 2 chip test.

kit 24162 on the project!

R.Rocca
04-26-2013, 04:12 PM
Hopefully Britanicus will join us here shortly. Kit no. 94588, surname "Tweedy" has agreed to test for PF4363 as he is L2- Z36- Z56- and is next closest to the Claxson/Kipling/Parker group, albeit not as close as any of those three are to each other.

Solothurn
04-26-2013, 04:26 PM
Thanks Rich

This is good to know. Hopefully things will get moving now for former U152*!

Do you know if the return shipping for Geno 2 is the same as what FTDNA expect/use?


Hopefully Britanicus will join us here shortly. Kit no. 94588, surname "Tweedy" has agreed to test for PF4363 as he is L2- Z36- Z56- and is next closest to the Claxson/Kipling/Parker group, albeit not as close as any of those three are to each other.

R.Rocca
04-26-2013, 05:39 PM
Thanks Rich

This is good to know. Hopefully things will get moving now for former U152*!

Do you know if the return shipping for Geno 2 is the same as what FTDNA expect/use?

The return kit is the same as the FTDNA kit.

Solothurn
04-26-2013, 05:44 PM
This person was found negative for L159.2 on Geno.2, so quality issues are present!

Have YCC updated yet?



Interesting.

L159.2 is officially beneath R-Z255 on the ISOGG Y-SNP tree, but there seems to be a recurrent instance of L159 under R-L21xZ255 that we've dubbed L159.3 on the ISOGG R1b SNPs under Investigation page. So a recurrent instance of L159 under R-U152 would likely be called L159.4. It will be interesting to see how the YCC handles this SNP in their upcoming update.

Solothurn
04-26-2013, 05:51 PM
Thanks Rich

Do you think they will ever consider using vials already stored at FTDNA to test the Geno2?

My first and only FTDNA kit took 3 weeks to arrive!


The return kit is the same as the FTDNA kit.

Claxon
04-27-2013, 12:01 PM
I have arrived :-)
I thought my own ancestral surname would be more aPPropriate than Britanicus. Glad that Tweedy is not as close as Kipling and Parker. Too many skeletons in the closet already.
They are banging on the closet door as I type !
Thanks to Rich R for the heads up. I have been answering my own posts for a while at the other place.

Rich C

Claxon
04-27-2013, 12:17 PM
I would add that I have tracked down a Claxon descendant of the CLAXOn line ( mine is Clarkson, name change 1811) from 1789. He lives in Liverpool, and is not interested in any way of taking a DNA test, even if I pay for it. There are other Claxons tested, and they are I1A....

Solothurn
04-27-2013, 12:36 PM
Welcome Claxon :)

I am posting on here from now on, not on Molgen!!

I have now ordered Geno2 again.

Now the wait.......!

BTW just been on 23andMe and 'encouraged' my U152 to do Geno2 too!!

Scarlet Ibis
04-27-2013, 07:36 PM
Welcome Claxon :)

I am posting on here from now on, not on Molgen!!

I have now ordered Geno2 again.

Now the wait.......!

BTW just been on 23andMe and 'encouraged' my U152 to do Geno2 too!!

Thanks for ordering the Geno 2. Good to see an English U152 doing so. :)

I've been looking into it within the past few days, and I actually think I'm going to order one for my dad. It's a tricky decision, considering the fact that there's a sale going on with FTDNA's Family Finder, which is awfully tempting, but I'm too curious about his U152, and the origin of our paternal line.

Solothurn
04-28-2013, 11:53 AM
Thanks Rich

Do you or anybody else know if the kit consists of swabs or vials?



The return kit is the same as the FTDNA kit.

Scarlet Ibis
04-28-2013, 03:44 PM
I haven't gotten it yet personally, but everything I've seen online looks like it's the usual cheek swabs FTDNA does.

Here's a video of a man who recorded himself taking a sample.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLVpTwZWne8

Solothurn
04-28-2013, 04:15 PM
Thanks Scarlet :)

Solothurn
05-02-2013, 12:46 PM
Ordered 5 days ago and my kit is already swabbed and on route to Texas :angel:

Scarlet Ibis
05-04-2013, 11:24 PM
It's probably not the most time saving way to go about things, but I decided to just upgrade my dad's current sample to test for the DYS492 value instead of ordering the Geno 2.0 immediately. Then, I'll figure out where to go from there.

Scarlet Ibis
05-04-2013, 11:32 PM
Ugh. Now, I'm having second thoughts, and thinking I should just go ahead and get the Geno 2.0 kit. Such a dilemma stemming being bored on a Saturday night.

Solothurn
05-05-2013, 12:22 PM
No rush Scarlet :) Geno will take months!!

At least you will get a 'quick' 492 result! You could always do the PF4363 next!


Do you have a Ysearch id for your dad?



Ugh. Now, I'm having second thoughts, and thinking I should just go ahead and get the Geno 2.0 kit. Such a dilemma stemming being bored on a Saturday night.

CelticGerman
05-05-2013, 12:44 PM
No rush Scarlet :) Geno will take months!!

At least you will get a 'quick' 492 result! You could always do the PF4363 next!


Do you have a Ysearch id for your dad?



My GENO took 2 months and a few days ......

Claxon
05-05-2013, 05:19 PM
No rush Scarlet :) Geno will take months!!

At least you will get a 'quick' 492 result! You could always do the PF4363 next!


Do you have a Ysearch id for your dad?

PF 4363 is MY SNP. I paid a lot of money for it, and I am NOT sharing it. :-)
Its kind of neat just googling PF4363, and my name comes up.

Solothurn
05-05-2013, 05:42 PM
Haha :P

You watch all U152* will turn out to be PF4363+ aaaaaaaaggggghhhhhhhhh!!




PF 4363 is MY SNP. I paid a lot of money for it, and I am NOT sharing it. :-)
Its kind of neat just googling PF4363, and my name comes up.

Claxon
05-07-2013, 12:52 PM
Hi Solothurn
got this e mail from Rootsweb, re donations for a project that our own RR is mentioned in....
.
"The team of citizen science researchers who mined the 1000 Genomes Project
data in 2012 to discover many new R1b1a2 SNPs have now embarked on a
follow-up project to further refine the R1b tree. They have obtained access
to a collection of 1,000 whole genome samples from British men, and they are
currently mining this dataset for novel genetic variants.

Because of the scale of the project they are fundraising in order to
purchase the reagents and consumables needed to develop new primer pairs and
to validate novel genetic variants using DNA sequencing. Further details of
the project can be found on this website:

http://www.justgiving.com/DNAforum
The team's first citizen science paper can be found here:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041634

Rocca, R. A., Magoon, G., Reynolds, D. F., Krahn, T., Tilroe, V. O., Velde
Boots, den, P. M. O., & Grierson, A. J. (2012). Discovery of Western
European R1b1a2 Y Chromosome Variants in 1000 Genomes Project Data: An
Online Community Approach.

The original research introduced the DF and Z series SNPs which have greatly
helped to refine the various branches of the R1b1a2 tree. This new project
promises to provide even greater resolution for R1b men of British origin.

A new Twitter account has been established at @dnaforum. If you are on
Twitter perhaps you could help to spread the word there too.

Brian Swann kindly arranged for Andy Grierson, the UK researcher involved in
this project, to attend WDYTYA Live in February. I had the pleasure of
meeting Andy and can vouch for his enthusiasm and professionalism.

Please consider supporting this very worthy cause.

Best wishes

Debbie Kennett

Solothurn
05-07-2013, 01:37 PM
Thanks Rich :)

Hope they reach their target soon!




Hi Solothurn
got this e mail from Rootsweb, re donations for a project that our own RR is mentioned in....
.
"The team of citizen science researchers who mined the 1000 Genomes Project
data in 2012 to discover many new R1b1a2 SNPs have now embarked on a
follow-up project to further refine the R1b tree. They have obtained access
to a collection of 1,000 whole genome samples from British men, and they are
currently mining this dataset for novel genetic variants.

Because of the scale of the project they are fundraising in order to
purchase the reagents and consumables needed to develop new primer pairs and
to validate novel genetic variants using DNA sequencing. Further details of
the project can be found on this website:

http://www.justgiving.com/DNAforum

The team's first citizen science paper can be found here:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041634

Rocca, R. A., Magoon, G., Reynolds, D. F., Krahn, T., Tilroe, V. O., Velde
Boots, den, P. M. O., & Grierson, A. J. (2012). Discovery of Western
European R1b1a2 Y Chromosome Variants in 1000 Genomes Project Data: An
Online Community Approach.

The original research introduced the DF and Z series SNPs which have greatly
helped to refine the various branches of the R1b1a2 tree. This new project
promises to provide even greater resolution for R1b men of British origin.

A new Twitter account has been established at @dnaforum. If you are on
Twitter perhaps you could help to spread the word there too.

Brian Swann kindly arranged for Andy Grierson, the UK researcher involved in
this project, to attend WDYTYA Live in February. I had the pleasure of
meeting Andy and can vouch for his enthusiasm and professionalism.

Please consider supporting this very worthy cause.

Best wishes

Debbie Kennett

Claxon
05-07-2013, 01:48 PM
wow, your fast, you beat me to it.

everyone, throw some money at this project. Link is in above post.

Solothurn
05-07-2013, 01:58 PM
Lol :)

I have now put this on Facebook, Eupedia, Worldfamilies, 23andMe community and the FTDNA forums. Good job I am not a missionary lol

The £5,000 target should be reached in no time!!!

I hope people use the gift aid option, though I don't know how it works for non Brits!


wow, your fast, you beat me to it.

everyone, throw some money at this project. Link is in above post.

Solothurn
05-08-2013, 09:32 AM
I emailed Andy re U152

"Yes we do have some U152 samples in the collection, and have identified a couple of novel branches in this area of the tree.

The samples all come from the Bristol area and were collected as part of this project:
http://www.bristol.ac.uk/alspac/participants/

There is a map there that shows the recruitment area.

This link gives information on the genetics component of the Biobank project:
http://www.mrc.ac.uk/Newspublications/News/MRC009069

Basically this is equivalent to putting 0.5 million British people through 23&me!"






wow, your fast, you beat me to it.

everyone, throw some money at this project. Link is in above post.

Claxon
05-08-2013, 01:40 PM
The Bristol area ? hmmm I feel a limmerick coming on

There once was a young man from Bristol
Who decided to DNA test through saliva
He said with a grin, while wiping his chin
I could be related to Lady Godiva

or, for Kipling fans

Test test test test
testing up and down again
test test test test
charge the credit card again
Rb1, rb2.. when will we test again
there is no discharge of the debt

Jean M
05-08-2013, 01:55 PM
Godiva? Are you perhaps thinking of Coventry? The Anglo-Saxon history of Bristol is pretty obscure. I should know. I researched it. (See The Saxon Origins of Bristol (http://www.buildinghistory.org/bristol/origins.shtml).) But I know of no suggestion that it was ever held by Leofric of Mercia.

Claxon
05-11-2013, 08:40 PM
t'was only a limmerick, I had to rhyme saliva ... pentameter first, historic accuracy second :-)

New map of u-152* PLUS NEW MINOR DERIVED SUBCLADES
http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msid=205516752424012974045.0004b2ff5a55cfb052b1 b&msa=0&ll=56.607885,11.865234&spn=26.530208,86.572266

Solothurn
05-17-2013, 12:05 PM
Over half way there now! Not bad in the timescale :beerchug:



Does anybody know if Adriano Squecco is still 'mining' 23andMe U152 data?

I hope so as I encouraged two U152 to send their data :P





Hi Solothurn
got this e mail from Rootsweb, re donations for a project that our own RR is mentioned in....
.
"The team of citizen science researchers who mined the 1000 Genomes Project
data in 2012 to discover many new R1b1a2 SNPs have now embarked on a
follow-up project to further refine the R1b tree. They have obtained access
to a collection of 1,000 whole genome samples from British men, and they are
currently mining this dataset for novel genetic variants.

Because of the scale of the project they are fundraising in order to
purchase the reagents and consumables needed to develop new primer pairs and
to validate novel genetic variants using DNA sequencing. Further details of
the project can be found on this website:

http://www.justgiving.com/DNAforum
The team's first citizen science paper can be found here:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041634

Rocca, R. A., Magoon, G., Reynolds, D. F., Krahn, T., Tilroe, V. O., Velde
Boots, den, P. M. O., & Grierson, A. J. (2012). Discovery of Western
European R1b1a2 Y Chromosome Variants in 1000 Genomes Project Data: An
Online Community Approach.

The original research introduced the DF and Z series SNPs which have greatly
helped to refine the various branches of the R1b1a2 tree. This new project
promises to provide even greater resolution for R1b men of British origin.

A new Twitter account has been established at @dnaforum. If you are on
Twitter perhaps you could help to spread the word there too.

Brian Swann kindly arranged for Andy Grierson, the UK researcher involved in
this project, to attend WDYTYA Live in February. I had the pleasure of
meeting Andy and can vouch for his enthusiasm and professionalism.

Please consider supporting this very worthy cause.

Best wishes

Debbie Kennett

Scarlet Ibis
05-22-2013, 02:37 AM
My dad got his dys 492 result of 12, so now he's been placed in group "a" of the u152 subclades project. I've decided I'm gonna ask I'm if he'll provide a cheek swab sample for the geno 2.0. Might as well save myself some time, and get it.

R.Rocca
05-29-2013, 07:40 PM
PF 4363 is MY SNP. I paid a lot of money for it, and I am NOT sharing it. :-)
Its kind of neat just googling PF4363, and my name comes up.

Congratulations are in order...the Kipling Geno 2.0 results are in and the Claxon/Parker/Kipling cluster is fully PF4363+

Claxon
05-29-2013, 08:49 PM
Congratulations are in order...the Kipling Geno 2.0 results are in and the Claxon/Parker/Kipling cluster is fully PF4363+

I just heard from Mike Kipling, and was about to post the same.
My thoughts on it are although it probably is a FAMILY marker, it may originate with the Parisii and Gododdin tribes of Yorkshire. Mike originates in this very place.

Solothurn
05-30-2013, 12:01 PM
Congrats Rich :)

What GD/67 are the three of you?



I just heard from Mike Kipling, and was about to post the same.
My thoughts on it are although it probably is a FAMILY marker, it may originate with the Parisii and Gododdin tribes of Yorkshire. Mike originates in this very place.

Claxon
05-30-2013, 01:20 PM
Congrats Rich :)

What GD/67 are the three of you?

Brian
64/67 with various Kiplings we are pretty certain pf4363 is a family marker.
63/67 with Parker, although some consider the 389i and ii to be one, not two. We are VERY recent, and I now have a paper link through relative Finder. All my surnames are Kipling family surnames. I now am very sure I have the Kipling line. This may have been an accidental switch where I was born, during an air raid. ( or perhaps with my father, in WW1) or child relocations during the Blitz, but I have no Relatives on the Finder on my mothers side either. My line does NOT appear to be Rudyards, although the same great grandfather. Please bear in mind this is not certain, but is where the evidence is taking this.
Anything further I will keep private, for obvious reasons. Mike K has been very helpful here, and is the admin of the Kipling DNA project, where I am listed along with John Parker.
RichC ( K)

4jdg5 Y search

Solothurn
05-30-2013, 02:14 PM
Thanks Rich

Do you know who the other three PF4363+ are, user ids 239238, 244838, B1484?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=yresults

And how far GD you are to them? Ysearch is no more as I was going to search!


Brian
64/67 with various Kiplings we are pretty certain pf4363 is a family marker.
63/67 with Parker, although some consider the 389i and ii to be one, not two.

Claxon
05-30-2013, 02:27 PM
Thanks Rich

Do you know who the other three PF4363+ are, user ids 239238, 244838, B1484?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=yresults

And how far GD you are to them? Ysearch is no more as I was going to search!

I didn't know we had more pf4363, but they are all Kiplings
Kipling DNA Ftdna site here
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/kipling/default.aspx?section=yresults

we are the same gd from Mike I think, 4 rather than three on two of them I think.

Solothurn
05-30-2013, 02:54 PM
The three kits in the PF4363+ are also in the Kipling project!!

Maybe Steve added them to U152 project or they were added auto based on your Kipling 'markers'!



I didn't know we had more pf4363, but they are all Kiplings
Kipling DNA Ftdna site here
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/kipling/default.aspx?section=yresults

we are the same gd from Mike I think, 4 rather than three on two of them I think.

Claxon
05-30-2013, 04:16 PM
The three kits in the PF4363+ are also in the Kipling project!!

Maybe Steve added them to U152 project or they were added auto based on your Kipling 'markers'!

I have been speaking to Mike K for some time. He was nice enough to put them up on the Kipling site to keep an eye on things ( he is Admin)


As you see, PF4363 is a KIPLING marker, and they are native to the Vale of Pickering, where we have the Arras culture, and The Valley of the Iron Masters, the Parisii ( La Tene area) The Kiplings were farmers, and then very well known bell makers. A Clarkson excavated the Arras culture, so we have apparently been "kipling" each other for centuries. :-)

Parker, Kipling and Clarkson surnames are very evident on the ancient farmer rolls of Yorkshire... and shepherd rolls. We are also all coal workers ( Kipling / Clarkson)
Mike also links back to Barnard Castle I think, which some consider Clarkson territory.

The Kipling family genealogy, complete, is under ancestry.com, "Kiplings of Lythe and North Yorkshire, ( family trees)

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/16326564/family?cfpid=363110066

my brother is taking the 23 and Me relative finder test. We feel it will be different.
I would point out that I found next to nothing at Family Finder, perhaps because many are US, while the Relative Finder are European... I really don't know, but all the Kiplings came up on 23 and Me. As I was born in England, this may be the case. The other side of this, is that a Kipling relative tested at 23 first, and then recommended it to other relatives.

Solothurn
05-31-2013, 11:43 AM
So in your opinion do you think only your 'cluster' will have it?

It is just that Steve is 'asking' A1/a to test for it on the U152 project! :embarrassed:


PF4363 is a KIPLING marker

Claxon
05-31-2013, 02:40 PM
So in your opinion do you think only your 'cluster' will have it?

It is just that Steve is 'asking' A1/a to test for it on the U152 project! :embarrassed:

I am not knowledgable enough about this to really say anything. But your suggestion on my comment may very well be the case.
Time will tell.
I hope it is an A1 marker though. We need an SNP for " La Tene Briton". That would be a feather in Tibs hat, I think.

Solothurn
06-01-2013, 10:35 AM
Thanks Rich

Hopefully my Geno result (when it comes) will help the La Tene/Tib's hat cause :)


I am not knowledgable enough about this to really say anything. But your suggestion on my comment may very well be the case.
Time will tell.
I hope it is an A1 marker though. We need an SNP for " La Tene Briton". That would be a feather in Tibs hat, I think.

Solothurn
06-14-2013, 03:49 PM
My results came in today less than a month to process!

I sent the raw data to Steve G for analysis!

My Autosomal results I presume (not mt or Y)

Northern European
42%
Mediterranean
37%
Southwest Asian
19%

First Reference population: German
Second Reference population: Greek





I look forward to seeing your results in the future if you want to post them. :)

Claxon
06-14-2013, 10:24 PM
My results came in today less than a month to process!

I sent the raw data to Steve G for analysis!

My Autosomal results I presume (not mt or Y)

Northern European
42%
Mediterranean
37%
Southwest Asian
19%

First Reference population: German
Second Reference population: Greek

Hmm, looks like PF4363 is a VERY localized marker then. Sorry you don't have it Brian.

Curious that you are #1 German
I am 42/38/19, you are 42/37/19
I am #1 British... but British is 49/33/17
my closest is Romanian, but could be German. I asked Geno how in the heck could I be British, if my closest is something else. Closest SHOULD be, well, closest.
No response.

Perhaps they are using my inferred criticism to say you are #1 German... but then, I am still British.
I thought you might be an Illegal Alien ! Now, we know :-)
Do you still like Fish and Chips ? Or is knockwurst more to your taste .....lol
Rc

Solothurn
06-14-2013, 10:41 PM
Lol then moussaka!

Why don't they add up to 100?

Solothurn
06-16-2013, 09:27 AM
Looking at the SNP results, Parker and Lovelace (and only them!) seem to share many SNPs.

BUT Lovelace is L2 so is this a glitch, simultaneous mutation or did they occur before L2??



Hmm, looks like PF4363 is a VERY localized marker

Solothurn
06-19-2013, 11:33 AM
As I am now a U152** with no hope of finding an SNP, I have upgraded 67 to 111.

Hopefully an admin will spot something 'exSTReme' :)

Claxon
06-19-2013, 09:00 PM
[QUOTE=Solothurn;8184]As I am now a U152** with no hope of finding an SNP, I have upgraded 67 to 111.
...

Last asterisk u 152, perhaps
SOLOthurn is quite fitting !

Rc

Solothurn
06-22-2013, 05:11 PM
:)

Maillard, kit 34105 is Z56+ (R1b1a2a1a2b3) on the FTDNA SNP page, but is R1b1a2a1a2b in the results on the comparison file??

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ysnp

I looked and looks like PF6601 is not tested in Geno!!

A known SNP tested at FTDNA not on the Geno 2 chip :(

So some could be Z56 but would still show as U152*. They would still have to Z56 SNP at FTDNA for $39, despite Geno 2.0 being the so called 'deep clade replacement test!' >:(





[QUOTE=Solothurn;8184]
SOLOthurn is quite fitting !

Rc

R.Rocca
06-23-2013, 02:13 AM
:)

Maillard, kit 34105 is Z56+ (R1b1a2a1a2b3) on the FTDNA SNP page, but is R1b1a2a1a2b in the results on the comparison file??

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ysnp

I looked and looks like PF6601 is not tested in Geno!!

A known SNP tested at FTDNA not on the Geno 2 chip :(

So some could be Z56 but would still show as U152*. They would still have to Z56 SNP at FTDNA for $39, despite Geno 2.0 being the so called 'deep clade replacement test!' >:(



Z56 is the same SNP as PF6601, so Z56 is most certainly tested by Geno 2.0.

The haplogroup name R1b1a2a1a2b is the ISOGG name for U152*, but FTDNA haplogroups have not changed over to ISOGG names yet and only do so every few years. It would be an I.T. nightmare to change them frequently, especially with so many new discoveries happening so often.

mafe
06-23-2013, 08:01 AM
Solothurn is definitely onto something here!

Maillard, kit 34105 is Z56+ in the U152 project but doesn't show as positive in Itai's comparison chart.

Raskin, kit 21470 is Z56+ in the U152 project but is reported as R-U152 in the "all stories" list on Geno 2.0.

Gardner, kit N111980 has got a no-call for Z56.

I think Z56 might be failing on the Geno chip.


Edit: There is definitely something wrong. Maillard, Gardner, Malan and Stüdlin are now "under investigation" in the U152 project. Martin is under investigation in Steve's tracking report. Fritsch and Raskin aren't under investigation yet though.

Solothurn
06-23-2013, 10:52 AM
I am a known U152* Maillard is a known Z56+ both are shown as the same R1b1a2a1a2b on the chip.

Here is the result file so far:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zv0khjlk6gv6x2m/genorawcompare_view.zip

The nearest to PF6601 showing in the file are PF6600 and PF6602. These both give the same result for Maillard and U152*s




Z56 is the same SNP as PF6601, so Z56 is most certainly tested by Geno 2.0.

The haplogroup name R1b1a2a1a2b is the ISOGG name for U152*, but FTDNA haplogroups have not changed over to ISOGG names yet and only do so every few years. It would be an I.T. nightmare to change them frequently, especially with so many new discoveries happening so often.

mafe
06-23-2013, 11:39 AM
S47 doesn't show up positive for Malan, kit N84624, another false negative? This is going pear-shaped :suspicious:

Solothurn
06-23-2013, 11:55 AM
Doesn't fill us with confidence does it?

Colangelo kit 223929 was tested positive for L159.2 at FTDNA and I ordered it too. I came back negative.

His Geno 2.0 then came back negative for it.
Original deep SNP testing vs new Geno 2.0 chip :confused:




S47 doesn't show up positive for Malan, kit N84624, another false negative? This is going pear-shaped :suspicious:

mafe
06-23-2013, 12:06 PM
Doesn't fill us with confidence does it?

Colangelo kit 223929 was tested positive for L159.2 at FTDNA and I ordered it too. I came back negative.

His Geno 2.0 then came back negative for it.
Original deep SNP testing vs new Geno 2.0 chip :confused:

It doesn't fill me with confidence but now there is still hope that I could be Z56+

Is L159.2 on the Geno chip? I can't find it on the list.

R.Rocca
06-23-2013, 12:44 PM
It doesn't fill me with confidence but now there is still hope that I could be Z56+

Is L159.2 on the Geno chip? I can't find it on the list.

Some SNPs on the Geno 2.0 chip are unstable. It is a product of sequencing technology which is not as robust as single PCR amplification SNP testing like FTDNA does. However, Z56 is not one of the inconsistent SNPs on either of the two methods of testing, so if you tested negative for it on either, I would say you are negative. Also, all Z56+ samples are DYS492=14 or in just a couple of cases DYS492=13.

As I mentioned above, the U152* haplogroup assignment is meaningless as all Geno 2.0 samples that test Z36+ or Z56+ will still show as R1b1a2a1a2b until the ISOGG tree is adopted.

mafe
06-23-2013, 01:00 PM
Well my point is that the people that tested Z56+ with FTDNA have got the same raw data results for Z56 as the people who are known negatives. And the same goes for S47. Geno 2.0 reports the known Z56+ people as R-U152. No one is Z56+ in Geno 2.0! This is based on the raw data results for that individual SNP not the nomenclature.

R.Rocca
06-23-2013, 01:52 PM
Well my point is that the people that tested Z56+ with FTDNA have got the same raw data results for Z56 as the people who are known negatives. And the same goes for S47. Geno 2.0 reports the known Z56+ people as R-U152. No one is Z56+ in Geno 2.0! This is based on the raw data results for that individual SNP not the nomenclature.

Now I see your point. Thanks.

Solothurn
06-23-2013, 03:08 PM
If not something is very awry here >:(

Here is their reply to my question regarding L159.2

"The reason his SNP result changed is because he got a Geno 2.0 test from National Geographic and transferred the information to Family Tree DNA. The Geno 2.0 test chip utilizes a different method to verify SNPs from the method used by our laboratory for individual SNP tests. We have gone back over his initial SNP test results and based on the information we had at the time we confirmed that the positive result was the correct interpretation of that particular test. However, the new method employed by the Geno 2.0 test yielded a different result and the transfer process overwrote his previous result.

Because his original test result was accurate we will not be able to issue a refund. We performed this test to confirm your suspicion that you were positive for it based on your research and conversations between yourself and knowledgeable group administrators. There is no guarantee made that you are going to test positive for an SNP when ordering it even if someone you match is positive for it."


As you say where is it? Maybe a 'PF' or another 'label'!







Is L159.2 on the Geno chip? I can't find it on the list.

Solothurn
06-23-2013, 03:26 PM
Fingers crossed for your DYS492 = 14 at least then there is a chance you could lose your * :)


It doesn't fill me with confidence but now there is still hope that I could be Z56+

Solothurn
06-23-2013, 03:45 PM
It looks the comparison file is up to date with ISOGG nomenclature!

The Z36 are showing on the file as R1b1a2a1a2b2, Peracchio in example :)

Scarlet Ibis
06-23-2013, 05:51 PM
If not something is very awry here >:(

Here is their reply to my question regarding L159.2

"The reason his SNP result changed is because he got a Geno 2.0 test from National Geographic and transferred the information to Family Tree DNA. The Geno 2.0 test chip utilizes a different method to verify SNPs from the method used by our laboratory for individual SNP tests. We have gone back over his initial SNP test results and based on the information we had at the time we confirmed that the positive result was the correct interpretation of that particular test. However, the new method employed by the Geno 2.0 test yielded a different result and the transfer process overwrote his previous result.

Because his original test result was accurate we will not be able to issue a refund. We performed this test to confirm your suspicion that you were positive for it based on your research and conversations between yourself and knowledgeable group administrators. There is no guarantee made that you are going to test positive for an SNP when ordering it even if someone you match is positive for it."


As you say where is it? Maybe a 'PF' or another 'label'!

Maybe it's just me, but their reply comes off as snarky. Did you even ask them for a refund, or were you just asking about the SNP?

Solothurn
06-23-2013, 09:38 PM
I did ask for a refund :) I felt that his positive result was in error from FTDNA! As you can see from the reply, not in error!

Maybe Geno 2 will miss other positive markers as with Maillard's Z56 :(

Claxon
06-23-2013, 10:06 PM
deleted deleted deleted

mafe
06-24-2013, 09:18 AM
I thought Geno 2.0 only transferred positive SNPs into FTDNA. So if he tested negative for L159.2 in Geno it shouldn't affect the positive SNPs already in FTDNA after his transfer. Since L159.2 isn't even on the Geno chip he should still consider himself L159.2+.

FTDNA should seperate their tests and the tests they do for Geno 2.0 in their responses to customers. Colangelo did business with FTDNA regarding this SNP test, so FTDNA should make sure that he is confirmed positive or negative. The business he did with Geno 2.0 has got nothing to do with it. Even a transfer "billed" by FTDNA shouldn't make a difference to that because there was no reason to expect a change in his positive SNP results as negative results, no calls and non geno chipped SNPs aren't transferred.

Btw I wonder if there were any Z56+ kits vetted for Geno 2.0.

Solothurn
06-24-2013, 09:38 AM
I will contact them and ask for an explanation!

We will see what they say this time >:(


I thought Geno 2.0 only transferred positive SNPs into FTDNA. So if he tested negative for L159.2 in Geno it shouldn't affect the positive SNPs already in FTDNA after his transfer. Since L159.2 isn't even on the Geno chip he should still consider himself L159.2+.

FTDNA should seperate their tests and the tests they do for Geno 2.0 in their responses to customers. Colangelo did business with FTDNA regarding this SNP test, so FTDNA should make sure that he is confirmed positive or negative. The business he did with Geno 2.0 has got nothing to do with it. Even a transfer "billed" by FTDNA shouldn't make a difference to that because there was no reason to expect a change in his positive SNP results as negative results, no calls and non geno chipped SNPs aren't transferred.

Btw I wonder if there were any Z56+ kits vetted for Geno 2.0.

mafe
06-24-2013, 09:45 AM
I will contact them and ask for an explanation!

We will see what they say this time >:(

I'm afraid contacting them will only help Colangelo, if L159.2 is still reported negative in your FTDNA haplotree I doubt you'll get a refund.

Solothurn
06-24-2013, 09:59 AM
Probably not, but on principle if he was negative first time around I wouldn't have taken the SNP test!

I sent this, with your help mafe :)

"Can somebody please explain???

Since L159.2 IS NOT even on the Geno chip shouldn’t Colangelo (kit 223929) still be considered L159.2+?

Also, am I correct in that no calls and non Geno chipped SNPs aren't transferred anyway? I thought Geno 2.0 only transferred positive SNPs into FTDNA.
So even if L159.2 is on the chip under another ‘label’ and he tested negative for this it shouldn't affect the positive SNPs already in his FTDNA results after the transfer!

This isn’t about a $29 refund, this is on principle that he was positive for an SNP and then negative after a later test on Geno with L159.2 not even in the test."

Maybe they should remove Colangelo from the R-Z255 and Subclades Project project now?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L159.2/default.aspx?section=ysnp



I'm afraid contacting them will only help Colangelo, if L159.2 is still reported negative in your FTDNA haplotree I doubt you'll get a refund.

mafe
06-24-2013, 11:32 AM
Fingers crossed for your DYS492 = 14 at least then there is a chance you could lose your * :)

If I turn out to be DYS492=14, I wonder if they will do a free Z56 test if it turns out to be a false negative in Geno 2.0.


It looks the comparison file is up to date with ISOGG nomenclature!

The Z36 are showing on the file as R1b1a2a1a2b2, Peracchio in example :)

I don't like the longhand nomenclature, he should have listed the terminal SNP given by Geno 2.0 also, that way new terminal SNPs are easier to spot.


Probably not, but on principle if he was negative first time around I wouldn't have taken the SNP test!
I sent this, with your help mafe :)

"Can somebody please explain???

Since L159.2 IS NOT even on the Geno chip shouldn’t Colangelo (kit 223929) still be considered L159.2+?

Also, am I correct in that no calls and non Geno chipped SNPs aren't transferred anyway? I thought Geno 2.0 only transferred positive SNPs into FTDNA.
So even if L159.2 is on the chip under another ‘label’ and he tested negative for this it shouldn't affect the positive SNPs already in his FTDNA results after the transfer!
This isn’t about a $29 refund, this is on principle that he was positive for an SNP and then negative after a later test on Geno with L159.2 not even in the test."


I really hope you get decent and helpful answers this time.

Colangelo should join the Geno 2.0 chart for comparison, that way we can rule out that L159.2 is on the chip under another name.

Solothurn
06-24-2013, 11:33 AM
mafe

Any thoughts on Z410 (position 12086)?

Error/No call for myself, you, Kipling and Parker (K n P former U152*s), three L2s (or subcl) and one Z36.

No other Error/No call in R !!

I have asked some L21 to join the comparison project so more R may shed some light!

Solothurn
06-24-2013, 11:48 AM
I tried to find Colangelo in ysearch but no luck. I contacted a L159.2+ and hope he joins.

Is the -- dash in the results, an error, a no call or a false negative???




If I turn out to be DYS492=14, I wonder if they will do a free Z56 test if it turns out to be a false negative in Geno 2.0.
Colangelo should join the Geno 2.0 chart for comparison, that way we can rule out that L159.2 is on the chip under another name.

mafe
06-24-2013, 11:52 AM
mafe

Any thoughts on Z410 (position 12086)?

Error/No call for myself, you, Kipling and Parker (K n P former U152*s), three L2s (or subcl) and one Z36.

No other Error/No call in R !!

I have asked some L21 to join the comparison project so more R may shed some light!

It seems it is a known J2 SNP and the no-call also appears in kits from haplogroup E, I and J kits so I guess it is a normal no-call.

Good thinking! We also need more S47 and L4 in the comparison chart.


I tried to find Colangelo in ysearch but no luck. I contacted a L159.2+ and hope he joins.

Is the -- dash in the results, an error a no call or a false negative???

It's a no-call, at least that is how they are reported in Itai's results chart.

Solothurn
06-24-2013, 02:15 PM
mafe

Z255 (Pos 11961) is 'just' upstream of L159.2

Some are positive for Z255 and negative for L159.2

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L159.2/default.aspx?section=ysnp

Geno found Colangelo Z255- so one assumes Geno also made him L159.2- !!

Why as you say have they overwritten an SNP that was tested before and was +. There are instances where SNPs are found in different haplogroups (provided no errors have occurred).

I will await FTDNA's response!

mafe
06-25-2013, 09:26 PM
mafe

Z255 (Pos 11961) is 'just' upstream of L159.2

Some are positive for Z255 and negative for L159.2

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L159.2/default.aspx?section=ysnp

Geno found Colangelo Z255- so one assumes Geno also made him L159.2- !!

Why as you say have they overwritten an SNP that was tested before and was +. There are instances where SNPs are found in different haplogroups (provided no errors have occurred).

I will await FTDNA's response!

This is a tricky one. He can't be L159.2 because that is in R-L21, and he can't be L159.1 because that is in I2a1. I think the +/- thing in FTDNA is more of a technical problem, haven't got a clue how the Geno 2.0 transfer was able to change it though.

Solothurn
06-26-2013, 05:12 PM
FTDNA tested him and found him L159.2+, I know a marker within L21!!

I questioned this as he even appeared in the U152 project in green as R1b1a2a1a1b4f

Steve the admin and FTDNA assured me this was no error!

Steve said:

"You can order it if you want but we have no idea about its distribution as he is the first sample reporting this SNP"

I did and you know the outcome >:(

Colangelo is still in the 'L21' project group as G. L159.2- and/or Z255- but as R1b1a2a1a1b3
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L159.2/default.aspx?section=yresults

SO WHERE IS HIS L159.2+ RESULT NOW?? Under the carpet perhaps!

NO response from FTDNA as yet!!






He can't be L159.2 because that is in R-L21

mafe
06-26-2013, 05:53 PM
Did it change from "tested positive" to "tested negative" or from "tested positive" to "test available" in his FTDNA haplotree? Did he check L159.1 in his haplotree?

R.Rocca
06-26-2013, 08:03 PM
Did it change from "tested positive" to "tested negative" or from "tested positive" to "test available" in his FTDNA haplotree? Did he check L159.1 in his haplotree?

It is showing as "Tested Negative" in his FTDNA tree.

mafe
06-27-2013, 08:11 AM
It is showing as "Tested Negative" in his FTDNA tree.

Thanks Richard, I see, FTDNA should confirm he is positive or negative for this SNP then. I don't see a reason why they wouldn't or shouldn't do that especially as the results are important to the entire R-U152 project. If he is confirmed positive it could lead to more L159 tests ordered so I really don't understand the negative attitude in their responses.


Richard I noticed you are L2+ but you are listed as R-U152 in the "all stories list" in Geno 2.0. Is this a bug or is U152 your terminal SNP in Geno?

R.Rocca
06-27-2013, 11:08 AM
Thanks Richard, I see, FTDNA should confirm he is positive or negative for this SNP then. I don't see a reason why they wouldn't or shouldn't do that especially as the results are important to the entire R-U152 project. If he is confirmed positive it could lead to more L159 tests ordered so I really don't understand the negative attitude in their responses.


Richard I noticed you are L2+ but you are listed as R-U152 in the "all stories list" in Geno 2.0. Is this a bug or is U152 your terminal SNP in Geno?

It is a bug in Geno 2.0. I have tested L2+ with the FTDNA deep clade test and my Geno 2.0 raw file also has me as L2+.

Scarlet Ibis
06-28-2013, 02:11 AM
All this stuff I've read lately makes me feel uneasy about having bought the kit (even if I bought it cheap and 2nd hand), but what's done is done. I'm mailing my dad's sample off tomorrow.

mafe
07-02-2013, 10:24 AM
It is a bug in Geno 2.0. I have tested L2+ with the FTDNA deep clade test and my Geno 2.0 raw file also has me as L2+.

Shows how important it is to compare the raw data.

Solothurn
07-05-2013, 01:34 PM
In Geno 'Our Story' I have ten larger circle matches (from about 300+ smaller circles) indicating more closely related.

Is this closer relationship based on autosomal results? Otherwise all U152s would be 'close'!

Solothurn
07-05-2013, 01:35 PM
Hope you have some luck with Geno!



All this stuff I've read lately makes me feel uneasy about having bought the kit (even if I bought it cheap and 2nd hand), but what's done is done. I'm mailing my dad's sample off tomorrow.

mafe
07-09-2013, 03:26 PM
In Geno 'Our Story' I have ten larger circle matches (from about 300+ smaller circles) indicating more closely related.

Is this closer relationship based on autosomal results? Otherwise all U152s would be 'close'!

I think they're just random stories within haplogroup R. At first I had 12 matches, then 9, and today I have 21 matches. Current list:

5 x R-PF7558
3 x R-U152
3 x R-CTS7822
3 x R-L23
2 x R-L388
1 x R-Z319
1 x R-CTS606
1 x R-M478
1 x R-U106
1 x R-U198

Rathna
07-09-2013, 03:36 PM
I think they're just random stories within haplogroup R. At first I had 12 matches, then 9, and today I have 21 matches. Current list:

5 x R-PF7558
3 x R-U152
3 x R-CTS7822
3 x R-L23
2 x R-L388
1 x R-Z319
1 x R-CTS606
1 x R-M478
1 x R-U106
1 x R-U198

Convergent mutations. No meaning.

mafe
07-09-2013, 03:51 PM
Actually the three U152 stories are closest to me in the circle. I think they change matches from time to time and I believe the smaller dots could also include people with a story but the stories just aren't shown.

Claxon
07-12-2013, 09:24 PM
canceled post, old news

Biloo
07-13-2013, 09:20 PM
Does someone know if and where I can find a map of the distribution of haplogroup R-L2* (a map where U152* and all other downstream SNPs are excluded) ?

Claxon
07-13-2013, 10:51 PM
you might find something here
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=results

and these are latest results to subclades
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=ycolorized
Rich c

Solothurn
07-16-2013, 11:55 AM
Thanks mafe

Looks like Brescia, Lombardy has the highest concentration of U152 looking at this map.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brescia

Be good to get a few of these 'deep' tested. I have contacted one on 23andMe!





I think they're just random stories within haplogroup R. At first I had 12 matches, then 9, and today I have 21 matches. Current list:

5 x R-PF7558
3 x R-U152
3 x R-CTS7822
3 x R-L23
2 x R-L388
1 x R-Z319
1 x R-CTS606
1 x R-M478
1 x R-U106
1 x R-U198

Bolgeris
07-17-2013, 07:29 PM
The same problems as many years ago ..
the origin U152 + in Italy was Celtic or Germanic?
For L20 + My ancestry origin village in the mountains of Lombardy and "Grassi" ancestry village in the Ligurian Mountains was settled by the Lombards
In particular, it is recalled that were colonized by a Fara lumbard clan ..
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fara_ (Lombards)
We Are Lumbards or gaulish!?
Mah ..
To explain Fara Lombard..

Fara (Lombards)

It'll (plural: making Italian, farae in Latin) was the basic unit of social organization and military of the Lombards. It was formed by the aggregation of a homogeneous group and compact families (originating from the same noble clan) and was able to organize contingent with military functions of exploration, attack and occupation of territories during the great migrations that led the people Lombard from the Baltic area, to Pannonia, to Italy.

A traditional historiographical approach identified the fara with extended family groups, but it has long been established interpretation that places greater emphasis on the role of the military unit will do. According to the etymology (see German fahren, go, travel), Jörg Jarnut argues for a definition of fara as "association running", [1] which included, alongside the warriors, all of the related non-combatants ( women, old people, children, slaves, and even livestock). Paul the Deacon instead speaks of "farae" as races or lines of descent.
In fara merged two basic structures of German society: the Sippe (extended family) and the Gefolgschaft (free union of warriors around a boss). The second resembled the already comitatus described by Tacitus in the first century. It is difficult to understand to what extent the two you had family members and military importance. During a crucial moment as a migration as you can guess the character of Gefolgschaft take over. They were Gefolgschaft cynocefali groups, ie those chosen warriors who, with special hairstyles, trying to terrorize the enemies looking like dogs and wolves. A mediation can be thought of as a group of relatives, similar to the Celtic clan matrix, with a greater military commanders of other similar corporate structures of other Germanic peoples.
During the nomadic phase of the Lombards (II-VI century) in fact the military tasks in fara, were accompanied by social ones: the group was to ensure internal peace, ensure the sustenance of all, erect temporary shelters at the end of travel. At the head of to do was place a duke, [2] warrior honored with such dignity and for dynastic ties to the military value shown in the war and awarded by the sovereign. The internal cohesion was secured by the family ties that members of a fara believed they had with each other, and during the twenty-year budget in Pannonia (about 547-568), however, the inevitable emergence of economic differences allowed the richest and most powerful of the dukes of welcome within its fighters will do less provided with means.
The invasion of Italy in 568, was organized by Alboin based on the make, who formed units, military and migration together, by means of which the Lombards penetrated in the Peninsula (ie the populus congregatus in armis). [2] Once in a new territory, a fara was chosen to be settled as a whole in a strategic point, usually relying on existing structures. For example Gisulfo I of Friuli, the first Lombard duke took office in Italy (and the only one directly created by Alboin), he settled with his retinue of arimanni in the town of Cividale (formerly Forum Julii). [2]
A conquest took place, the years do still maintained their characters mobility and transience, and then gradually evolve into permanent settlements. The autonomy of mobility do is still remembered by the cap. 177 Edict of Rothari, that if you move from one area of ​​the fara provides for the return to the Duke of donations may be made by those in the group. [2] Examples of spontaneous formation of ducats to do the work are the duchies of Spoleto and of Benevento, isolated compared to most of the duchies concentrated in Northern Italy. [2]

mafe
08-01-2013, 05:08 PM
It doesn't fill me with confidence but now there is still hope that I could be Z56+

Y-dna 37 to 67 upgrade is completed, no matches at 37 and 67 and DYS492 = 12 :amen:

Solothurn
08-01-2013, 07:24 PM
Amen indeed my U152** cousin :)



Y-dna 37 to 67 upgrade is completed, no matches at 37 and 67 and DYS492 = 12 :amen:

Solothurn
08-19-2013, 11:30 AM
N8217 Kennedy and 180858 Crosier, have now been designated Z192+ Z194+

(From the other forum) They have DYS485=15 (PD5RV=14) and DYS640=12 and so do these three (from Ysearch)

B86Y9, Starkins, USA
PD5RV, Johnston, USA
Q49N4, Weber, Germany

So if you are one of the above and/or in A:a: U152 (L2- Z36- Z56- (dys492=12) on the U152 page Z194 is the suggested SNP for you to test if Geno is not an option!!

Hope that is all accurate info :)

mafe
08-25-2013, 01:26 PM
In Geno 'Our Story' I have ten larger circle matches (from about 300+ smaller circles) indicating more closely related.

Is this closer relationship based on autosomal results? Otherwise all U152s would be 'close'!

Solothurn, your bubble is in my Geno 2.0 circle! Does yours show mine aswell?

Scarlet Ibis
08-25-2013, 05:14 PM
Hmm...I just checked, and Solothurn is close to my dad's circle, too. I haven't paid attention to this feature until now; I'll fill out the paternal profile box.

Solothurn
08-26-2013, 02:05 PM
I cannot see you or Scarlet :(

I have 17 larger bubbles, but are they just M269+ with stories, as you said earlier?

Two are defintely U106+: RMERRY47 and TOMCAT, so M269+ looks likely. Not that close then, if M269+ is our common ancestor is it?



I have another question re Geno, but will put it in the 'Linking autosomal and mt DNA to R1b-U152 and its subclades' thread!




Solothurn, your bubble is in my Geno 2.0 circle! Does yours show mine aswell?

Scarlet Ibis
08-27-2013, 03:33 AM
Ok, I finally filled out the story box.

A few bizarre observations: 1) Yesterday, I saw Solothurn near my dad's circle core, but today, I don't. 2) I, too, am seeing a few U106 guys.

mafe
08-27-2013, 09:42 AM
My bubble matches seem to change daily, so Solothurn isn't there anymore. I did notice that some U152+ bubbles are closer to me than other U152+ bubbles. Solothurn wasn't that close to me, but 3 others U152+ bubbles are.

mafe
08-31-2013, 08:26 AM
Here's an example of the difference in bubble distance (all U152+)


http://i41.tinypic.com/x1nlg1.jpg

Solothurn
09-01-2013, 08:25 PM
mafe
How did you get all those U152 matches to show in bubbles?

mafe
09-02-2013, 07:49 AM
mafe
How did you get all those U152 matches to show in bubbles?

Sorry, I should have said "All 4 are U152+", the rest are U152-

Solothurn
09-05-2013, 09:59 AM
Thanks mafe

I have contacted http://www.britainsdna.com/ about U152* and if their Chromo2 YDNA test has any downstream SNPs not tested by Geno and FTDNA.

I asked:

"I am a U152* with no known downstream SNPs.

I have tested negative to all known downstream SNPs from FTDNA and the latest Geno 2.0 chip!

U152+ L2- Z36- Z56- Z192- Z194- CTS7193- F1493- PF4363-

Do you test for any new SNP on your Chromo2 YDNA test other than the above?"

Reply:

"We test all of those, plus a number of others that could be useful, including S163, S209/Z42, S366/Z43 and 6 other new SNPs from sequences that we analysed. There may also be others originating from the recent Dutch Genome project!"

http://www.britainsdna.com/products/ydna

Chromo2 Raw YDNA

$199
£129
€160

More valuable than Geno for the Y then :)



Sorry, I should have said "All 4 are U152+", the rest are U152-

mafe
09-05-2013, 06:12 PM
Thanks for the update! The price is reasonable, but I wonder if it will help the U152* group.

S163 is also known as L69 and according to the "ancestral phylogenetic tree" it is downstream of L2.

Z42 and Z43 seem to be connected to Z56 / DYS492=14.

They didn't test L2 in the Dutch genome project so the 6 unclassified samples in the project could still be L2+. So I doubt there will be new U152XL2 SNPs from the Dutch genome project.

That leaves us with 6 new unidentified SNPs :\ Who's ready to take the plunge?

Solothurn
09-10-2013, 05:35 PM
Claxon may be interested and he may get a discount :)

I know he is PF4363+ but this is a familial (recent) SNP I believe. He may have one of the six unclassified SNPs maybe not tested by Geno.

I have emailed BritainsDNA for clarification on these 'six'!

I don't know what Rich Rocca's take is on BritainsDNA's Chromo 2 YDNA test! Maybe he will reply to this!

http://www.britainsdna.com/demos/chromo2


Thanks for the update! The price is reasonable, but I wonder if it will help the U152* group.

S163 is also known as L69 and according to the "ancestral phylogenetic tree" it is downstream of L2.

Z42 and Z43 seem to be connected to Z56 / DYS492=14.

They didn't test L2 in the Dutch genome project so the 6 unclassified samples in the project could still be L2+. So I doubt there will be new U152XL2 SNPs from the Dutch genome project.

That leaves us with 6 new unidentified SNPs :\ Who's ready to take the plunge?

R.Rocca
09-11-2013, 05:24 AM
Claxon may be interested and he may get a discount :)

I know he is PF4363+ but this is a familial (recent) SNP I believe. He may have one of the six unclassified SNPs maybe not tested by Geno.

I have emailed BritainsDNA for clarification on these 'six'!

I don't know what Rich Rocca's take is on BritainsDNA's Chromo 2 YDNA test! Maybe he will reply to this!

http://www.britainsdna.com/demos/chromo2

Unfortunately, I think the odds would be very low that you will find an SNP for U152* in BritainsDNA if you have already tested with Geno 2.0.

haleaton
09-11-2013, 11:54 AM
If you previously had testing at EthnoAncestry and they already have "your DNA Extracted" they will cut you a break Chromo2 YDNA (Raw + the narrative) for £109 which ends up ~$175 US with Foreign transaction fee.

I don't know if there was a further price break for just the Raw w/o narrative for an existing sample. I always had a good experience with Dr. Wilson lab.

Took the plunge, but I hope they provide a simple spread sheet with their non-public domain SNP definitions.

I am not expecting much and do hope all this will be superseded by my FullGenomes in Batch#3 at BGI at the moment said to due back at the end of the month.

It will be good data to compare against my GENO 2.0 results and also 23andMe V2/V3. All differently programmed Illumina chips, if I remember.

Solothurn
09-11-2013, 11:59 AM
Thanks Rich

Do you have the U152 SNPs that Geno tested that I am negative for?




Unfortunately, I think the odds would be very low that you will find an SNP for U152* in BritainsDNA if you have already tested with Geno 2.0.

Solothurn
09-11-2013, 12:05 PM
Good luck haleaton

As you have Geno, Itai Perez will also be be interested in your results to compare :)

@ Post #18

http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=32919&page=2



If you previously had testing at EthnoAncestry and they already have "your DNA Extracted" they will cut you a break Chromo2 YDNA (Raw + the narrative) for £109 which ends up ~$175 US with Foreign transaction fee.

I don't know if there was a further price break for just the Raw w/o narrative for an existing sample. I always had a good experience with Dr. Wilson lab.

Took the plunge, but I hope they provide a simple spread sheet with their non-public domain SNP definitions.

I am not expecting much and do hope all this will be superseded by my FullGenomes in Batch#3 at BGI at the moment said to due back at the end of the month.

It will be good data to compare against my GENO 2.0 results and also 23andMe V2/V3. All differently programmed Illumina chips, if I remember.

Solothurn
09-11-2013, 12:17 PM
I say 'recent' as my U152 group members are still encouraged to do Geno. Common ancestor for most of us (59/61 of 67) is 1100 AD.

Does this indicate that the PF4363 and other possible SNPs are suspected to have occured later than this?




Claxon may be interested and he may get a discount :)

I know he is PF4363+ but this is a familial (recent) SNP I believe. He may have one of the six unclassified SNPs maybe not tested by Geno.

I have emailed BritainsDNA for clarification on these 'six'!

I don't know what Rich Rocca's take is on BritainsDNA's Chromo 2 YDNA test! Maybe he will reply to this!

http://www.britainsdna.com/demos/chromo2

Solothurn
09-11-2013, 05:33 PM
Reply back from Britainsdna re 6 SNPs:

"We are not 100% certain of the genealogical placement of these six SNPs, some of which may be private to the person sequenced, and so are not releasing details at this time."





That leaves us with 6 new unidentified SNPs :\ Who's ready to take the plunge?

mafe
09-11-2013, 07:08 PM
So I guess these 6 SNPs are found in a sequence of a single person. Seeing my haplotype there is little chance that I will gain anything from this test :( And my piggybank says no. btw I returned two Y-DNA12 kits today :biggrin1: (and I might need to upgrade those during the december sale.)


Reply back from Britainsdna re 6 SNPs:

"We are not 100% certain of the genealogical placement of these six SNPs, some of which may be private to the person sequenced, and so are not releasing details at this time."

Solothurn
10-06-2013, 01:31 PM
I thought this may be of interest

Update on R1b (U152) Deeper R1b subclade resolution for the Brabant Y-DNA Project

Taken from the thread on Eupedia :)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29129-Deeper-R1b-subclade-resolution-for-the-Brabant-Y-DNA-Project-

The 1000+ Brabant DNA Project, which includes participant from all Belgium and a few from bordering areas, has re-tested the Y-DNA of all members for the following subclades.

- Under U106: Z18, Z381, L48, and U198
- Under P312: L21/M529 and Z195/Z196
- Under U152: L2 and L20

The new distribution is as follows:

Belgium (n=871 with confirmed Belgian ancestors )

TOTAL R1b : n=524 (60%)

P25 : n=1 (0.1%)
P297 : n=1 (0.1%)
M269 (+ L23) : n=16 (1.8%)
P310/L11 : n=6 (0.7%)

- All U106/S21 : n=218 (25%)
-- U106* : n=15 (1.7%)
-- Z18 : n=18 (2%)
-- Z381 : n=72 (8.3%)
--- U198 : n=9 (1%)
--- L48 : n=104 (11.9%)

- All P312/S116 : n=282 (32.3%)
-- P312* : n=84 (9.6%)
-- L21 : n=78 (8.9%)
-- Z196* : n=27 (3.1%)
-- SRY2627 : n=6 (0.7%)
-- U152* : n=28 (3.2%)
--- L2 : n=46 (5.2%)
---- L20 : n=13 (1.5%)


This is extremely interesting since we have for the first accurate percentage of R1b-L21 for Belgium and it is a bit higher than expected (nearly 9%).

L48 makes up nearly half of all U106 lineages, which is to be expected considering that this is a huge branch with plenty of subclades of its own. It is perhaps more surprising that 8.3% of Z381 are U198- and L48-, which means that they could either belong to the more mysterious Z153 and/or another subclade yet to be identified.

On the U152 side, just above two third of the lineages are L2+, including 15% of L20+. The proportion of L2 to U152 is in the average for northern Europe. This leaves only 3.2% for Z36, Z56 and Z192.

There is still 9.6% of P312 not accounted for. This might include some of the 7 other clades of DF27 beside Z196, which is already at a surprisingly high 3.8%. We can surely expect between 5% and 10% of DF27 in Belgium.

R.Rocca
10-06-2013, 04:37 PM
Not sure why Eupedia is presenting this as new data??? Maybe it was just released to the participants???

Anyway, the results were published back in May and discussed at length...primarily in the U106 and DF27 forums. Here is a link to the paper which is probably one of the best done papers on SNPs: http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(13)00101-4/abstract

Anyone interested in the contents of the paper, please let me know via PM.

haleaton
10-06-2013, 04:55 PM
I was wondering if there are any pending updates to the U152 and Subclades Phylogenetic Tree since February 2013 as we await FullGenomes data and analysis and perhaps Chromo2--particularly with the Netherlands Genome Project SNPS.

Even with the Sardinian SNPs on the GENO2.0 it seems like there was a point where nothing new about U152 was learned with increased samples--though the majority of samples were never transferred to FTDNA.

There is talk of GENO 2.0 putting out their own Y-tree, though I don't know if the entire data set would have anything relevant to U152.

Solothurn
10-13-2013, 02:14 PM
Update on Z194

"There are now 15 surnames in R1b-Z194. Six of them originated in the British Isles. 4 are from Germany. 4 others have their ancestors in Italy. The last is especially interesting, because he is the only R1b-U152 (L2-) in whole Arabia (Palastinian territory)."

It is from Eupedia and I have asked where they got the info.

I will keep you all posted :)

Solothurn
11-21-2013, 06:02 PM
I asked BritainsDNA again, how useful their Chromo2 chip would be for U152*!

Their reply

"S163, S209/Z42, S366/Z43"

I don't know if this is useful or not to people where BigY is not an option.

Then again, with FOUR U152* on order/awaiting BigY or FGS results it may be better to wait before ordering anything :)

haleaton
11-21-2013, 06:15 PM
I asked BritainsDNA again, how useful their Chromo2 chip would be for U152*!

Their reply

"S163, S209/Z42, S366/Z43"

I don't know if this is useful or not to people where BigY is not an option.

Then again, with FOUR U152* on order/awaiting BigY or FGS results it may be better to wait before ordering anything :) S163 = L69, PF2681

Solothurn
11-21-2013, 06:29 PM
From http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21L69/default.aspx

"The L69/L159 polymorphism is essentially a SNP/STR oxymoron. The base change happens right at the intersection of a poly G homopolymer and a GT dinucleotide repeat. In the case of L69+ the poly G is shortened from 6 to 4 bases and the dinucleotide repeat gains one unit. In the case of L159+ the poly G is elongated from 6 to 8 bases and the dinucleotide repeat looses one unit."

So, is L69 like L159.2 (+ in Colangelo before Geno) which is also below L21 ??

R.Rocca
11-21-2013, 07:20 PM
From http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21L69/default.aspx

"The L69/L159 polymorphism is essentially a SNP/STR oxymoron. The base change happens right at the intersection of a poly G homopolymer and a GT dinucleotide repeat. In the case of L69+ the poly G is shortened from 6 to 4 bases and the dinucleotide repeat gains one unit. In the case of L159+ the poly G is elongated from 6 to 8 bases and the dinucleotide repeat looses one unit."

So, is L69 like L159.2 (+ in Colangelo before Geno) which is also below L21 ??

Unfortunately, L69 is not all that stable. For example, in L21, it is found to have occurred more than one time in different sub-branches. In the FTDNA project, it has been found in several L2 samples. So, if they've found it in U152(xL2) samples, it is a further example of its instability.

haleaton
11-21-2013, 07:43 PM
Unfortunately, L69 is not all that stable. For example, in L21, it is found to have occurred more than one time in different sub-branches. In the FTDNA project, it has been found in several L2 samples. So, if they've found it in U152(xL2) samples, it is a further example of its instability.

The list of BritainsDNA snps is interesting. Not certain if it is complete or accurate. Even given the known equivalences there appears to be no S28/U152/PF6570 or S139/L2 on the list. But there is Z1905! Did not see SNPs that were obviously of GoN unless they were given "S" names. [EDIT - probably complete list as it matches # SNP advertized]

Telfermagne
12-20-2013, 07:12 PM
Thanks for the update! The price is reasonable, but I wonder if it will help the U152* group.

S163 is also known as L69 and according to the "ancestral phylogenetic tree" it is downstream of L2.

Z42 and Z43 seem to be connected to Z56 / DYS492=14.

They didn't test L2 in the Dutch genome project so the 6 unclassified samples in the project could still be L2+. So I doubt there will be new U152XL2 SNPs from the Dutch genome project.

That leaves us with 6 new unidentified SNPs :\ Who's ready to take the plunge?

I've tested chromo2. In addition to the standard S116 result, I got confirmation of S11987+ which is supposedly the same SNP as DF99 (at FTDNA) a previously unknown clade of S116. I checked my data from BritainsDNA and I am also positive for S163 which is puzzling if S163 is associated with U152 since I am U152-, shown by BritainsDNA, FTDNA and 23andMe.

BrettMaximus
01-14-2014, 07:00 AM
Hi All,

First time here as a registered user, though I have been visiting the forum a lot and reading a lot here. A quick question, in the attached R-U152 Subclades diagram, on the left, L2 has the description of -Celtic, does this mean not Celtic, or is the "-" just a mark on the image? Also, on the right, Z36 indicates Celtic (La Tene); I am just seeking a little clarity here, as I thought that U152 was all from Celtic (La Tene) origins. Perhaps after reading hundreds of pages of information about the La Tene Culture and U152, I am getting a little confused with all the information overload. If L2 in this diagram suggests NOT Celtic, then what does it suggest. If anyone might clarify this for me it would be most appreciated. Keep up the good work all.
1217

MitchellSince1893
01-14-2014, 12:45 PM
Hi Brett,

U152 is much older than La Tene and other Celtic cultures, having Italic and Celtic branches. L2 appears to be more prevalent in Northern Europe than South of the Alps. Because of this it has been associated with the Continental Celts, while L21 is more associated with the Insular Celts. It is believed that one source for U152 in the Britain was the relatively late arrival of the Belgae into Southeastern England 100BC timeframe. However, U152 was most likely already in Britain from earlier migrations.

Richard Rocca is quite knowledgeable on this subject and will hopefully chime in.

Post 5 in this thread has some of his recent thoughts on the subject
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1648-U152-Comparison-of-the-areas-most-mapped&p=21244&viewfull=1#post21244

BrettMaximus
01-15-2014, 06:56 AM
Thank you for the reply here, just getting my head around all of this and trying to do it all way too fast LOL. I have another question which I shall post separately ;-)

Brett

P.S The Maximus part of my username is just part of a nickname a friend gave me, it has no bearing on my DNA origins... Or maybe it will LOL.

BrettMaximus
01-15-2014, 07:09 AM
I emailed Steve Gilbert, Tibor Fehér and Richard Rocca recently. Steve got back to me which is most appreciated, but I have just emailed Tibor again, as I think there is a little confusion. In a research note by Tibor in January 2010, the following appeared.

Extract from: U152 and Subclades Project Groups by Tibor Fehér.pdf Jan 2010

A1 Group: YCAII 19,22; La Tène Briton

This group has a common ancestor around 300-200 BC in Britain. It has an interesting subgroup history as several markers tell the evolution of this clade. The Celt who brought the line to Britain was very close to the U152 modal, however, he had a distinctive YCAII=19,22. He had modal DYS 447=25 and DYS 511=10. Members 105479 (Brand), 28112 (Parker) 24162 (Clackson) retain this ancient feature.

------

I match all of these markers exactly as stated above, however, when Steve Gilbert replied to me, he mentioned a DYS447=27 which confused me a bit, as Tibor's information was talking about DYS447=25. I have the YCAII=19,22 ; DYS447=25 and DYS511=10. I am also a DYS492 of 12 which is not mentioned in that particular extract, but it does come up a lot in R-U152 and R-L2 research.

So the question for me is, Does Tibor's explanation above still stand today, or has it been reassessed by new findings and more downstream SNP's? And, is DYS 447=25 the right number, or should it be DYS 447=27 as per Steve Gilbert's reply to me?

Thanks

Brett

Solothurn
01-15-2014, 09:51 AM
Hi Brett

I chose Solothurn as my username as it is in Switzerland! It may turn out my ancestors didn't even pass through there, but who knows?

Re 19, 22 I am no expert, but I think the opinion may change when new SNPs come in :)



"P.S The Maximus part of my username is just part of a nickname a friend gave me, it has no bearing on my DNA origins... Or maybe it will LOL."

Sinclar
01-15-2014, 01:05 PM
Hi fellow U152s,

Finally registered.

Shouldn't be too long now before the Beta Big Y results come through. There are a few U152** (my group) waiting for their Big Y results, so should be enough data to compare.

On the origins thing, I haven't a clue what I am. :) I have a Scottish surname, but don't match their staple DNA type (S21+). However, my people could have carried a variation of the surname from France, as there are so many different places that share this name.
We could have adopted the lairds surname on the Northern Isles; or even the result of a non paternity event somewhere since name adopting time. I also have no close matches with anyone who has tested for SNPs. To add to that, I have a unique within U152* value on one of my markers.

However, I could share an early U152* medieval ancestor with a few with French surnames, but without further SNP testing this can't be confirmed. But nothing in the last 1300 years.

I'm not sure if I'm the descendant of Maximus Pessimus (the fed up Roman) who joined the Picts, in one way or another... :) or Sir Norman, or probably his groom...

R.Rocca
01-15-2014, 08:05 PM
I emailed Steve Gilbert, Tibor Fehér and Richard Rocca recently. Steve got back to me which is most appreciated, but I have just emailed Tibor again, as I think there is a little confusion. In a research note by Tibor in January 2010, the following appeared.

Extract from: U152 and Subclades Project Groups by Tibor Fehér.pdf Jan 2010

A1 Group: YCAII 19,22; La Tène Briton

This group has a common ancestor around 300-200 BC in Britain. It has an interesting subgroup history as several markers tell the evolution of this clade. The Celt who brought the line to Britain was very close to the U152 modal, however, he had a distinctive YCAII=19,22. He had modal DYS 447=25 and DYS 511=10. Members 105479 (Brand), 28112 (Parker) 24162 (Clackson) retain this ancient feature.

------

I match all of these markers exactly as stated above, however, when Steve Gilbert replied to me, he mentioned a DYS447=27 which confused me a bit, as Tibor's information was talking about DYS447=25. I have the YCAII=19,22 ; DYS447=25 and DYS511=10. I am also a DYS492 of 12 which is not mentioned in that particular extract, but it does come up a lot in R-U152 and R-L2 research.

So the question for me is, Does Tibor's explanation above still stand today, or has it been reassessed by new findings and more downstream SNP's? And, is DYS 447=25 the right number, or should it be DYS 447=27 as per Steve Gilbert's reply to me?

Thanks

Brett

Brett, some of these groupings were created before any downstream SNPs were known. When some of the Full Genomes and Big-Y results come in, will will likely know a lot more about the validity of some of these groups. For the time being, I wouldn't give too much weight to the groupings or the name "La Tène Briton".

R.Rocca
01-15-2014, 08:08 PM
Hi All,

First time here as a registered user, though I have been visiting the forum a lot and reading a lot here. A quick question, in the attached R-U152 Subclades diagram, on the left, L2 has the description of -Celtic, does this mean not Celtic, or is the "-" just a mark on the image? Also, on the right, Z36 indicates Celtic (La Tene); I am just seeking a little clarity here, as I thought that U152 was all from Celtic (La Tene) origins. Perhaps after reading hundreds of pages of information about the La Tene Culture and U152, I am getting a little confused with all the information overload. If L2 in this diagram suggests NOT Celtic, then what does it suggest. If anyone might clarify this for me it would be most appreciated. Keep up the good work all.
1217

As per my prior post, these labels seem too general and in some cases flat out wrong. For instance, U152+ Z36+ Z54+ Z37+ Z40+ is the most common male haplogroup in Tuscany, where no La Tene invasion ever took place.

Claxon
01-15-2014, 09:49 PM
As per my prior post, these labels seem too general and in some cases flat out wrong. For instance, U152+ Z36+ Z54+ Z37+ Z40+ is the most common male haplogroup in Tuscany, where no La Tene invasion ever took place.

Perhaps the "La tene Briton" posting by Tib to the main site should be taken down, as it is confusing issues. Apparently that announcement was premature.

The generic "Alpine Celt" may also be off, as, what is a Celt ? Isn't a Celt more a cultural title, like Viking ?
What would be a "safe" title for u-152 ? Vilanovan ?
Perhaps it is still too early

BrettMaximus
01-16-2014, 04:09 AM
Thanks Richard, most appreciated. It would be interesting though to see if Tibor was onto something in any case, perhaps not the culture of said names/kits in the group he mentioned in the 2010 study as La Tène Briton, but the fact that the group identified all shared YCAII=19,22 - DYS447=25 - DYS511=10 - DYS492=12 and maybe other markers? Whatever culture they may or may not have come from, they may have had a connection based on these shared markers?? Just a thought. I will keep my eye on this situation as it evolves.

Regards

Brett


Brett, some of these groupings were created before any downstream SNPs were known. When some of the Full Genomes and Big-Y results come in, will will likely know a lot more about the validity of some of these groups. For the time being, I wouldn't give too much weight to the groupings or the name "La Tène Briton".

Claxon
01-16-2014, 02:35 PM
Welcome aboard Brett.
Richard Rocca is a New Jersey neighbor of mine, and is most knowledgeable on these things. I am only an interested bystander, and my comments sometimes get knocked down by passing traffic, so please don't assume my comments are knowledgeable.
Solothurn and I are long time correspondents here, and we have found that we are also related through Family Finder, which is interesting.


Of course, u152 is much older than the La Tene culture, but perhaps those people of the Alpine area were, in fact, u152 anyway.

The good news here I think, is that we Brits with this designation, could be in Britain much earlier than the 500 BC La Tene incursion....
Rich

Sinclar
01-16-2014, 07:01 PM
It's unfortunate that we don't have any DNA from the Arras cemetery in the East Riding of Yorkshire, between Market Weighton and Beverley; or the burial sites of East Yorkshire during the La Tene period. The Arras chariot burials date to around 70AD when the dominant tribe was the Parisi, but the chariots and burial goods are British in style, differing from the similar continental style La Tene burials. I was surprised to hear that archaeologists rejected any connection between the Parisi of the East Yorkshire and that of the Parisii of Gaul. I always assumed a connection.

Claxon
01-17-2014, 01:44 AM
Hello Sinclar
,
I agree completely. But In IM Steads work, The La Tene Culture of North Yorkshire, he mentions that the Parisii of Yorkshire came from the same origins as the Parisi of Paris, originating in the La tene area of the Swiss alps..... but he felt they bypassed the Paris area to get to Yorkshire. This would mean that this same tribe must have taken on local British methods and incorporated them.

The latest statements seem to delete even that assumption, that they were not even originating in the La tene Swiss area, but imitated gifts from the continent.
There was trade with Britain a thousand years before this, such as with tin, but tribes in the Paris area could not make it 20 miles across the channel, apparently.

Sinclar
01-17-2014, 11:38 AM
Thanks for the reply, Claxon.
It's an interesting area, which could be linked to some U152 in the British Isles.
I'm relatively local so try to pick up anything new regarding the sites. Should I hear anything I'll post it.

Claxon
01-17-2014, 04:02 PM
I just received results from Britains DNA.
1. I am LESS than 6% English, 4% Irish, 6% Scots
3. Most likely invader group is Anglo Saxons ( finally, a guestimate!) Hail Wotan !
4. Most likely Brit relation... Amesbury Archer ( which I always suspected) I played in this area as a child.
5. Origin of highest Brit population s-28... Yorkshire

This is a really nice report.
I also have a list of all positive sub markers, including PF4363.
Rich

BrettMaximus
01-17-2014, 08:12 PM
Hi Richard, not sure if my original reply came through.. Was the Amesbury Archer tested for DNA? How did they come to this conclusion?

Thanks

Brett


I just received results from Britains DNA.
1. I am LESS than 6% English, 4% Irish, 6% Scots
3. Most likely invader group is Anglo Saxons ( finally, a guestimate!) Hail Wotan !
4. Most likely Brit relation... Amesbury Archer ( which I always suspected) I played in this area as a child.
5. Origin of highest Brit population s-28... Yorkshire

This is a really nice report.
I also have a list of all positive sub markers, including PF4363.
Rich

Sinclar
01-17-2014, 08:54 PM
I just received results from Britains DNA.
1. I am LESS than 6% English, 4% Irish, 6% Scots
3. Most likely invader group is Anglo Saxons ( finally, a guestimate!) Hail Wotan !
4. Most likely Brit relation... Amesbury Archer ( which I always suspected) I played in this area as a child.
5. Origin of highest Brit population s-28... Yorkshire

This is a really nice report.
I also have a list of all positive sub markers, including PF4363.
Rich

Interesting stats, Rich. There's nowt wrong with coming from Yorkshire. The best cricketers all came from here... :)

Claxon
01-18-2014, 12:32 AM
Brett
This was done through tooth enamel analysis. An area of origin of remains, such as where the child grew up, can be matched with the water of an area. They have identified it as the Swiss Alps. Interestingly, his child was buried nearby, and that child grew up in Essex.
Of course, they are ASSUMING the Archer is s-28.

The report is generic type, but refreshing in its approach... such as actually SAYING... " your ancestors probably came in with the Anglo Saxon invasions". The glossy report has nice pictures of Stonehenge.
My parents told me I was CONCEIVED at Stonehenge, when we lived in Corsham nearby.

I also would mention that Rich Rocca told me that his best guess is a Germanic origin, for me. I keep arguing the point, but looks like he was right.

Claxon
01-18-2014, 12:38 AM
Interesting stats, Rich. There's nowt wrong with coming from Yorkshire. The best cricketers all came from here... :)
Apparently this is the area of perhaps an Anglo Saxon occupation for myself, and also the Kiplings and Parkers. Anyone know what branch ( Angles, Saxons, or Jutes, might be more likely ?
Not to mention Frisians and the Cimbri from the Jutish areas.
( Dr Faux, where are you ?)
I might find something in his writings......
Rich ( still hate sauerkraut)

Solothurn
01-18-2014, 03:03 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/archaeology/king_stonehenge_01.shtml

I contacted the university a few years ago about YDNA testing and was told this hasn't been explored, but could be!

Does anybody know if FTDNA could analyse a non-buccal sample?

I have asked FTDNA about testing skeletal remains and will contact Andrew Fitzpatrick of Wessex Archaeology if he wants to pursue steps on DNA testing!

mafe
01-19-2014, 10:58 AM
Have you heard back from FTDNA? Perhaps Thomas Krahn/YSEQ can analyse the sample?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/archaeology/king_stonehenge_01.shtml

I contacted the university a few years ago about YDNA testing and was told this hasn't been explored, but could be!

Does anybody know if FTDNA could analyse a non-buccal sample?

I have asked FTDNA about testing skeletal remains and will contact Andrew Fitzpatrick of Wessex Archaeology if he wants to pursue steps on DNA testing!

Solothurn
01-19-2014, 11:09 AM
No, but it was Saturday when I emailed so hopefully Mon/Tues. If I don't hear back maybe an idea to ask Bennett directly! If not, Thomas Krahn as you suggest! I have emailed him.

I have also emailed Andrew at Wessex Archaeology if it is still an option.

If this comes off it may pave the way for testing other remains!

I.E. The Time Team (Channel 4 TV, UK) travel to the Roman fort of Birdoswald in Cumbria to carry out the first ever excavation of a Roman cemetery near Hadrians Wall.

Fingers crossed :)

Here is another link about the Amesbury Archer:

http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects/amesbury/archer.html




Have you heard back from FTDNA? Perhaps Thomas Krahn/YSEQ can analyse the sample?

Heber
01-19-2014, 01:40 PM
I met Dan Bradley of TCD last year and he mentioned that budgets and testing platforms were available for ancient DNA testing. I guess it would depend if it aligned with their areas of interest. Projects such as BEAN and university labs such as Mainz, Max Planck Institute, TCD, Barcelona should be a good target for ancient DNA testing.

mafe
01-20-2014, 01:18 PM
It would be great if he turns out to be U152+...but what are the chances?

Solothurn
01-24-2014, 01:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY0kTN_5aOM




I.E. The Time Team (Channel 4 TV, UK) travel to the Roman fort of Birdoswald in Cumbria to carry out the first ever excavation of a Roman cemetery near Hadrians Wall.

Sinclar
01-24-2014, 08:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY0kTN_5aOM

Thanks, Solothurn. :) I watched the 'Meet the Ancestors' Wetwang chariot burial programme on BBC Four a couple of nights ago. Sadly, they couldn't get any DNA. I'm not sure if this was the case for the male burials at Arras, also in East Yorkshire.

Solothurn
01-28-2014, 05:54 PM
Looks like Roman bones are not that common due to cremation etc.

These would be ideal bones to test!
http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/headless-romans/index.htm

Six of these skeletons were on display in Durham:
(possible 'interpretations' of these six skeletons :) )

Thracian http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/headless-romans/thracian.htm
Murmillo http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/headless-romans/murmillo.htm
Eques http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/headless-romans/eques.htm
Secutor http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/headless-romans/secutor.htm
Retiarius http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/headless-romans/retiarius.htm
Bestiarius http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/headless-romans/bestiarius.htm



Thanks, Solothurn. :) I watched the 'Meet the Ancestors' Wetwang chariot burial programme on BBC Four a couple of nights ago. Sadly, they couldn't get any DNA. I'm not sure if this was the case for the male burials at Arras, also in East Yorkshire.

Sinclar
01-28-2014, 11:40 PM
Thanks for those great links, Solothurn.

Do you think it might be worth sending an email to these guys about possible DNA testing?

There seems to be some excellent ancient DNA being obtained from teeth at the minute. Just hope we get some Roman data soon...

Solothurn
01-29-2014, 07:10 PM
I just sent them an email :)



Thanks for those great links, Solothurn.

Do you think it might be worth sending an email to these guys about possible DNA testing?

There seems to be some excellent ancient DNA being obtained from teeth at the minute. Just hope we get some Roman data soon...

Sinclar
01-30-2014, 11:22 AM
Be interesting what Thracian DNA would be. Several Thracian graves and tombstones had the name Rufus on them, which of course means "redhead".

Solothurn
01-30-2014, 02:12 PM
There is, as yet no evidence of an ampitheatre in York but we can keep an open mind!

Again :) Banna now called Birdoswald!

Cohors Primae Thracum - The First Cohort of Thracians

http://www.roman-britain.org/places/banna.htm










Be interesting what Thracian DNA would be. Several Thracian graves and tombstones had the name Rufus on them, which of course means "redhead".

BrettMaximus
03-07-2014, 09:30 AM
It's official.. I am now R-U152 as suspected Now for the next level of SNP... :amen:

Sinclar
03-07-2014, 12:07 PM
Brilliant news, Brett! Welcome to the U152 family...

BrettMaximus
03-10-2014, 06:34 AM
DNA extracted from a tooth socket and sequenced from a 7,000 year old man.. I wonder what his result was? See: http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-25885519

Sven Vermaete
03-10-2014, 10:03 AM
Interesting article but what has this to do with u152?

BrettMaximus
03-10-2014, 01:06 PM
Sorry Sven Vermaete,

I forgot to mention a previous conversation that some of us had here about testing the Amesbury Archer for suspected R-U152 DNA.

R.Rocca
03-10-2014, 04:01 PM
Sorry Sven Vermaete,

I forgot to mention a previous conversation that some of us had here about testing the Amesbury Archer for suspected R-U152 DNA.

Brett, this very exciting study was discussed extensively here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1958-7-000-Year-Old-Human-Bones-Suggest-New-Date-for-Light-Skin-Gene&p=28698&viewfull=1#post28698

Sinclar
03-10-2014, 08:36 PM
The isotope tooth analysis of the Amesbury Archer suggested he came from the Alps, other tests estimated that he lived around 4,300 years ago. Sounds like U152 is a possibility.

BrettMaximus
03-12-2014, 07:12 AM
A quick question Richard or for anyone else who can answer this.. Why at http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html is R1b1a2a1a2b described as S28/U152? Is it not R1b1a2a1a1b3?

Similarly, this blog http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/07/amateur-revision-of-r1b1a2a1a1-l11.html quotes that: R1b1a2a1a1b3 (L21/M529/S145, L459) is found specially in Ireland, Great Britain and Brittany.

If I am L21- and U152+ then how can R1b1a2a1a1b3 (which I am) be quoted as the above from this blog and even referenced at ISOGG? I am missing something, have the alpha-numeric names changed recently?

Sorry, just a little confused. Thanks

R.Rocca
03-12-2014, 11:56 AM
A quick question Richard or for anyone else who can answer this.. Why at http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html is R1b1a2a1a2b described as S28/U152? Is it not R1b1a2a1a1b3?

Similarly, this blog http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/07/amateur-revision-of-r1b1a2a1a1-l11.html quotes that: R1b1a2a1a1b3 (L21/M529/S145, L459) is found specially in Ireland, Great Britain and Brittany.

If I am L21- and U152+ then how can R1b1a2a1a1b3 (which I am) be quoted as the above from this blog and even referenced at ISOGG? I am missing something, have the alpha-numeric names changed recently?

Sorry, just a little confused. Thanks

That's correct Brett, those naming conventions have changed several times of the past years, and ISOGG, FTDNA and 23andMe use different trees. For that reason, folks rarely refer to their group by haplogroup name, but rather by their SNP.

BrettMaximus
03-12-2014, 01:24 PM
Most appreciated Richard B) and I have also emailed you on another matter, hopefully the email address is still valid. Thanks again.

Solothurn
03-14-2014, 11:46 AM
Has anybody heard recently of a skeleton that was unearthed in the Netherlands and is U152+?

R.Rocca
03-14-2014, 12:02 PM
Has anybody heard recently of a skeleton that was unearthed in the Netherlands and is U152+?

No. Do you have more specifics? Perhaps a link to a new story or forum conversation?

mafe
03-14-2014, 12:19 PM
It could be a skeleton from the Eindhoven graveyard research done by LUMC. DNA testing was done on 378 skeletons. There should be a paper on this, probably dated november/december 2013.

Solothurn
03-14-2014, 12:22 PM
Thanks mafe you probably answered Richard's question. I only heard it from an interested U152 contact and they didn't quote their source :(



It could be a skeletom from the Eindhoven graveyard research done by LUMC. DNA testing was done on 378 skeletons. There should be a paper on this, probably dated november/december 2013.

mafe
03-14-2014, 12:33 PM
Thanks mafe you probably answered Richard's question. I only heard it from an interested U152 contact and they didn't quote their source :(

Details of the Eindhoven research: http://archive.archaeology.org/0711/abstracts/blackdeath.html

mafe
03-15-2014, 02:51 PM
Thanks mafe you probably answered Richard's question. I only heard it from an interested U152 contact and they didn't quote their source :(

Do you have more information about the skeleton? Could you ask your contact?

Solothurn
03-15-2014, 07:34 PM
I have asked him and await his reply :)


Do you have more information about the skeleton? Could you ask your contact?

Sinclar
03-23-2014, 04:02 PM
As PF6658 could be quite an important snp for some of us who are U152*, I wondered if anyone knows an approximate date for this snp? Are we looking at around 3000-2000 years ago?

mafe
04-01-2014, 04:28 PM
I have asked him and await his reply :)

Have you heard back from him?:pray:

Solothurn
04-02-2014, 03:09 PM
No, I will ask him again!


Have you heard back from him?:pray:

Solothurn
04-06-2014, 02:23 PM
He sent me a link to here but not sure if it is what we want. The link didn't work but included maciamo and the Netherlands :(

mafe
04-07-2014, 12:31 PM
He sent me a link to here but not sure if it is what we want. The link didn't work but included maciamo and the Netherlands :(

It's probably a misunderstanding.

Solothurn
04-20-2014, 11:51 AM
My U152 group now suggests I order Z193!

Is Z193 now showing positive in BigY for some previous Z193- from Geno?

BrettMaximus
04-23-2014, 07:07 AM
Hi Guys,

Just logged into my FTDNA account today and the new result on the SNP test was completed ;-)

See the attached image, and good call Steve Gilbert ;-)

1763

L2+ ;-))))

Solothurn
04-23-2014, 03:32 PM
I asked Steve G. about Z193 and unfortunately it seems that the Z193 probe for the Geno 2.0 chip isn't working properly giving a negative results to everyone!

On a positive note he thinks Steve Weir will come in Z193+

:)

BrettMaximus
04-26-2014, 09:06 AM
Hi Guys

See: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xpwi8a419abfo5i/New%20U152-Y-DNA%20Haplotree.pdf

For the the New FTDNA R-U152 Haplotree

So many options now ...

BrettMaximus
04-26-2014, 09:39 AM
Has R1b1a2a1a1b3c just changed to R1b1a1a1a1a4 etc? It looks like the new haplotree has changed all the alpha-numeric longhand labels again. This always gives me a headache when trying to Google Dohhh.

Claxon
04-26-2014, 10:04 AM
Has R1b1a2a1a1b3c just changed to R1b1a1a1a1a4 etc? It looks like the new haplotree has changed all the alpha-numeric longhand labels again. This always gives me a headache when trying to Google Dohhh.

Hello Brett
Regarding my own PF4363 matches and FtDNA., it is probably incorrect.
I am now listed as R PF4363, and my Kipling matches are still the same.

However, John Parker, who was also PF4363, is now listed as R Z38.
Now, one would assume that IF he WAS PF 4363, and is now Z38, Z 38 would be a mutation AFTER PF4363. It is not.

PF 4363 falls AFTER Z38 on the FtDNA updated tree. So, there is something very wrong here. ( z38 falls under Z36)

Thanks to Rich R for his e mail response to my query on this.

If anyones SNP has CHANGED on the tree, it is probably a mistake.

RichC

Solothurn
04-26-2014, 10:12 AM
On the ISOGG April update L2 is R1b1a2a1a2b1

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

aagghhh! :)


Has R1b1a2a1a1b3c just changed to R1b1a1a1a1a4 etc? It looks like the new haplotree has changed all the alpha-numeric longhand labels again. This always gives me a headache when trying to Google Dohhh.

BrettMaximus
04-26-2014, 10:59 AM
And FTDNA is now R1b1a1a1a1a4 for L2 LOL.

Thanks Solothurn

BrettMaximus
04-26-2014, 01:02 PM
Hi Richard and others,

If R1b1a2a1a1b4g is PF4363 then how come this guy is R1b1a2a1a1b4g but the shorthand for his SNP is R-L193 which isn't in the new FTDNA Haplo Tree? See the image below.

1781

Thanks

Solothurn
04-29-2014, 07:47 AM
I think the tree is really a mess at this time! On my page I have the option of ordering $702 worth of SNPs! For this I would rather do BigY. I am going for food for the family instead :)

R.Rocca
04-29-2014, 11:19 AM
Hi Richard and others,

If R1b1a2a1a1b4g is PF4363 then how come this guy is R1b1a2a1a1b4g but the shorthand for his SNP is R-L193 which isn't in the new FTDNA Haplo Tree? See the image below.

1781

Thanks

Like Solothurn said, the tree is a mess right now and FTDNA sent an email saying they would have fixes in a couple of days.

Solothurn
05-02-2014, 01:14 PM
Rich, on the U152 project it is suggested we test for Z193 and OF6658. When I search on FTDNA to see if they are available , they are not!

Any ideas when they will be available to order?






Like Solothurn said, the tree is a mess right now and FTDNA sent an email saying they would have fixes in a couple of days.

R.Rocca
05-02-2014, 03:53 PM
Rich, on the U152 project it is suggested we test for Z193 and OF6658. When I search on FTDNA to see if they are available , they are not!

Any ideas when they will be available to order?

From what I think I remember, both were very difficult to design primers for, but I have to verify that.

Solothurn
05-02-2014, 05:35 PM
Thanks Rich
Thomas on Yseq also agrees :)

"Z193 and PF6658 are both in a very unstable 125 bp repeat region (about
22.2 to 22.5 Mb at hg19) . You can imagine this like a huge STR with
almost exact repeat motif of 125 bases that repeat themselves several
100 times. Those segments suffer from arbitrary recombination events and the repeat
motifs can be gained or lost. It's not only difficult to sequence this
region, but its also difficult to interpret the results in a
phylogenetic context. Therefore we recommend to focus your research on
other markers, if available."




From what I think I remember, both were very difficult to design primers for, but I have to verify that.

Sinclar
06-26-2014, 04:50 PM
Great news, my newly discovered SNPs downstream of U152 can now to ordered at YSEQ. Being: A517-A520.

CelticGerman
07-06-2014, 09:54 AM
I don't know if this was already posted here, it's from Genographic Project2047

Claxon
07-06-2014, 01:15 PM
The Geno page also mentions that carriers of U 152 ARE descendants of the Jewish diaspora. They do not say "pre Hebrew Israel."
I find this of some interest, as the Anglo Saxon kings of England all trace their lines back to Woden, who in turn is traced back to Noah.
( I am not Jewish or Christian, just stating some points).

Also, Snori Sturlison states that Odin / Woden came from ( forget the name of the town) which is on the river to the east of the Crimea, which seems to be an area of U 152. If we take a look at the migration pattern of u 152 from the Sinai, then Turkey then the Alps and into England, it again matches the mythology of the book, "The Kings of Britain".

Much of this is mentioned on the web page BritAm.org, which is run by a Jewish rabbi in Israel.
. He also mentions present day surnames in England that descend from this line.

Much of this has been ridiculed, as perhaps it should be, but DNA is apparently hinting that perhaps one should not laugh too loudly.

Rich C

Jean M
07-06-2014, 02:46 PM
Much of this has been ridiculed, as perhaps it should be, but DNA is apparently hinting that perhaps one should not laugh too loudly.

I'm not laughing. I'm groaning Claxon.

They don't say 'pre-Hebrew Israel' for a very good reason. R1b-U152 is not a Near Eastern haplogroup. Not every Jew of the Diaspora carries a Near Eastern Y-DNA haplogroup. Some have European ones. R1b-U152 is one of those.

Early Christian scholars in Europe attempted to work out a descent from Noah for European nations, because that is what the Bible led them to expect. See http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/originstories.shtml#Noah . These fantasies have nothing to do with reality. Humankind is not all descended from one man who lived in the Near East at any point in time. We know this for sure from DNA.

jdean
07-06-2014, 03:25 PM
What's really weird is FTDNA also say U152 is 'present across Europe, the Levant Region, and Southwestern Asia'

This isn't supported by FTDNA's SNP Map and I haven't come across U152 in geographic projects for those areas ????

Kwheaton
07-18-2014, 10:11 PM
Can anyone give me some recent estimates for the ages of U152 and major subgroups

I believe U152 is estimated at 4600-5000 YBP
L2 maybe 4000-5000 YBP

Anything below L2?

Also interested in recommended reading---I have Jean Manco Ancestral Journeys.
Thanks
Kelly

mafe
11-06-2014, 02:11 PM
Any news yet on the FTDNA R-U152 SNP-Packs / Panels?

Solothurn
02-12-2015, 12:28 AM
Interesting breakdown of R1b haplogroups on here:

http://22.alloforum.com/sous-groupes-europe-t418859-1.html

U152 Highest in North Italy 26.6%
Then Var (South of France I think) 19.1%

BrettMaximus
02-12-2015, 03:30 AM
I think Abraham Lincoln has been mentioned in the forum before as an L2, but here are a few other notables from the U152 group and sub branches. Source: http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/famous_y-dna_by_haplogroup.shtml Please see the attached or below image.

3768

Solothurn
04-14-2015, 02:04 PM
Hi all

I put FGC30121 in Google and this came up
http://www.geneanet.org/search/?country=FRA&p=2&place=auvers-st-georges&region=IDF&ressource=autres&subregion=F91

ROUSSEL FGC30121 - Ancêtres - Cheminot

Is this just a coincidence?

palamede
04-14-2015, 07:45 PM
Hi all

I put FGC30121 in Google and this came up
http://www.geneanet.org/search/?country=FRA&p=2&place=auvers-st-georges®ion=IDF&ressource=autres&subregion=F91

ROUSSEL FGC30121 - Ancêtres - Cheminot

Is this just a coincidence?

Certainly no relation with genetic genealogy. It is a registration number for an association of railwaymen interesting by genealogy (Cercle (society) Genealogique des Cheminots (railwaymen)). Other ancestors of railwaymen have different FGCxxxxx. They were railwayman from father to son, they lived in the same block and they were frequent marriages in the families.

Solothurn
04-15-2015, 10:40 AM
Thanks palamede

Early days for finding references to new SNPs :)


Certainly no relation with genetic genealogy. It is a registration number for an association of railwaymen interesting by genealogy (Cercle (society) Genealogique des Cheminots (railwaymen)). Other ancestors of railwaymen have different FGCxxxxx. They were railwayman from father to son, they lived in the same block and they were frequent marriages in the families.

Solothurn
05-13-2015, 06:20 AM
Once a U152*

No more :beerchug::beerchug::beerchug:

U152> PF6658,Z193> S20550,FGC30121 et al.> Y6354 et al.> Z10676,14698033,17235357

Kwheaton
05-13-2015, 12:44 PM
Congrats! :cheer2:

MitchellSince1893
05-13-2015, 01:03 PM
Woohoo! That really moved you off the U152 tree trunk.

Solothurn
05-14-2015, 03:33 PM
Yes, thanks to new BigY members: Hambleton and Collingwood. Also Weir doesn't have a few, so they are recent/after c1100AD :)


Woohoo! That really moved you off the U152 tree trunk.

Acque agitate
05-14-2015, 05:11 PM
Congratulations. Your group is very interesting and it seems quintessentially British (so far). It is distinguishing trait of a series of very clear guide markers .:

U152> PF6658, Z193> S20550, FGC30121 et al.

DYS447 - From 25 to 26
YCAII b - From 23 to 22
DYS511 - 10 to 9

U152> PF6658, Z193> S20550, FGC30121 et al.> Y6354 et al.

DYS459 - From 17 to 16
DYS447 - From 26 to 27
DYS481 - From 22 to 23

U152> PF6658, Z193> S20550, FGC30121 et al.> Y6354 et al.> Z10676,14698033,17235357

DYS389ii - From 29 to 28
DYS449 - From 29 to 27
DYS442 - From 12 to 11

There are a lot of participants in the group R1b-U152 who have not done any testing (over U152) that belong to your group (most likely). Almost everyone in the British Isles.

Solothurn
05-14-2015, 05:35 PM
Maybe, but one (kit 130533) tested S20550- and he is 19,22 and DYS511=9 :(

"There are a lot of participants in the group R1b-U152 who have not done any testing (over U152) that belong to your group (most likely). Almost everyone in the British Isles.

MitchellSince1893
04-18-2016, 11:25 PM
Out of boredom I gathered some statistics on the R-U152 FTDNA project page today.

After weeding out multiple surnames in the same subclade, new world country entries, blanks and "unknown" for the country column, and non U152 SNPs, I ended up with 985 entries.

Here are the percentage by country in this US biased database.

Alphabetical
Algeria 0.10%
Austria 1.02%
Belarus 0.91%
Belgium 1.52%
Bulgaria 0.20%
Czech Republic 1.12%
Denmark 0.81%
England 20.61%
Estonia 0.10%
Finland 0.20%
France 10.76%
Germany 12.79%
Greece 0.10%
Hungary 1.83%
Ireland 4.97%
Italy 9.95%
Kazakhstan 0.10%
Latvia 0.20%
Lithuania 0.61%
Luxembourg 0.10%
Malta 0.20%
Moldova 0.20%
Montenegro 0.20%
Netherlands 2.64%
Northern Ireland 0.61%
Norway 0.81%
Poland 2.44%
Portugal 0.61%
Romania 0.41%
Russian Federation 0.91%
Scotland 5.79%
Slovakia 0.30%
Spain 3.45%
Sweden 1.73%
Switzerland 5.08%
Turkey 0.30%
Ukraine 1.02%
United Kingdom 4.67%
Wales 0.61%

Sorted by percentage
England 20.61%
Germany 12.79%
France 10.76%
Italy 9.95%
Scotland 5.79%
Switzerland 5.08%
Ireland 4.97%
United Kingdom 4.67%
Spain 3.45%
Netherlands 2.64%
Poland 2.44%
Hungary 1.83%
Sweden 1.73%
Belgium 1.52%
Czech Republic 1.12%
Austria 1.02%
Ukraine 1.02%
Belarus 0.91%
Russian Federation 0.91%
Denmark 0.81%
Norway 0.81%
Lithuania 0.61%
Northern Ireland 0.61%
Portugal 0.61%
Wales 0.61%
Romania 0.41%
Slovakia 0.30%
Turkey 0.30%
Bulgaria 0.20%
Finland 0.20%
Latvia 0.20%
Malta 0.20%
Moldova 0.20%
Montenegro 0.20%
Algeria 0.10%
Estonia 0.10%
Greece 0.10%
Kazakhstan 0.10%
Luxembourg 0.10%

What's interesting to me is although Germany is almost 13% of all U152 in the project, not 1 of the 86 R-Z142 FTDNA U152 project entries is from Germany (although there is one entry from Hungary). There definitely appears to be a Western European center of gravity to this particular branch of Z49.

Maybe the initial Z142 men had a "Go West young man" history.

By comparison, the other Z49 branches have quite a few entries from Germany, Poland, Czech Rep, Russia, Sweden, and Finland; and thus appear to have more of a Central European center of gravity.

lgmayka
04-19-2016, 02:56 AM
By comparison, the other Z49 branches have quite a few entries from Germany, Poland, Czech Rep, Russia, Sweden, and Finland; and thus appear to have more of a Central European center of gravity.
For Z49, the official U152 tree shows only three subclades (Z142, S8183, and 3251629) plus a Polish singleton. On YFull's tree that singleton is the Polish Y18894 subclade (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y18894/).

kinman
04-20-2016, 03:09 AM
This is very interesting. Z142 probably originated about 4,600 years ago in the southwestern-most corner of Germany, near the Black Forest (uppermost Danube). Perhaps it was even a bit further west at the nearby Rhine River. From there some went up the Rhine into Switzerland, southeast France, Spain (and a few even into north Africa). A few went downstream toward the Netherlands, but I suspect most instead went across the Rhine and west across northern France. So ultimately they all ended up going mostly west along one of those routes, but a relatively few trickled back east or north over the centuries and millenia since then.
However, since Z49 had originated earlier further down the Danube in southern Germany, there would have been a greater likelihood of some of its other branches going north and northeast into Poland, Russia, Finland and Sweden. Not having reached the Rhine River probably had a big impact on where they spread (while the Rhine River had a big impact on the more westerly expansion of the Z142 branch). But ultimately, members of all these branches would be a large part of the invasion of the New World in modern times. Early on from the Atlantic fringe (Spain, Britain, France and the Netherlands), but later large numbers from Germany and other central European countries (plus Ireland) due to wars and famines in the 19th Century.
-----------Ken
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What's interesting to me is although Germany is almost 13% of all U152 in the project, not 1 of the 86 R-Z142 FTDNA U152 project entries is from Germany (although there is one entry from Hungary). There definitely appears to be a Western European center of gravity to this particular branch of Z49.
Maybe the initial Z142 men had a "Go West young man" history.

By comparison, the other Z49 branches have quite a few entries from Germany, Poland, Czech Rep, Russia, Sweden, and Finland; and thus appear to have more of a Central European center of gravity.

MitchellSince1893
05-07-2016, 05:37 AM
Some stats from the FTDNA U152 project, 1000 genome project and Government of Netherlands data on U152.

I eliminated duplicate names from the U152 project to arrive at these numbers

792 samples total
567 were L2 (71.6%)
99 were Z36 (12.5%
80 were Z56 (10.1%)
37 were PF6658 (4.7%)
4 were A274
1 was Z5805
1 was 8968256

European countries with above average percentages for L2 with at least 10 samples
Netherlands (89%)
Ireland (85%)
Belgium (83%)
Poland (83%)
England (81%)
Czech Rep (80%)
France (75%)
Scotland (74%)

Countries with below average L2 % (below 71.6%) with at least 10 samples
Italy (50%)
Spain (58%)
Switzerland (59%)
Germany (64%)
Hungary (70%)


Z36 made up 12.5% of the total (99 samples). Countries with above average Z36 with at least 10 samples
Switzerland (32%)
Italy (24%)
Germany (22%)
Czech Rep (20%)
Hungary (20%)
Spain (18%)

Countries with less than average Z36 with at least 10 samples
Poland (0%)
Netherlands (2%)
Ireland (3%)
England (4%)
Belgium (8%)
Scotland (8%)
France (9%)

Z56 made up 10.1% of the total U152 (80 samples). Countries with above average Z56 with at least 10 samples
Italy (18%)
Spain (18%)
France (14%)
Poland (11%)

Countries with less than average Z56 with at least 10 samples
Belgium (0%)
Czech Rep (0%)
Netherlands (0%)
Scotland (5%)
Switzerland (5%)
Ireland (6%)
England (9%)
Germany (9.7%)
Hungary (10%)

PF6658 made of 4.7% of the total U152 (37 samples). Countries with above average PF6658 with at least 10 samples
Belgium (8%)
Italy (8%)
Scotland (8%)
Spain (7%)
Netherlands (6%)
Poland (6%)
England (5%)
Switzerland (5%)

Countries with less than average PF6658 with at least 10 samples
Czech Rep (0%)
Hungary (0%)
France (1%)
Germany (2%)
Ireland (3%)