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Alanson
12-22-2014, 09:39 AM
I know that in the US there is romantic notion of the Native American peoples and many White Americans claim to descent from the Amerindians, but honestly it seems most often Cherokee, but never the other tribes. I have seen White American genetic tests they often are 100% European, though a small amount show SSA and Amerind genetics. I read that some people who wanted to pass as White but looked kinda exotic often claimed Cherokee ancestry, this was in order to escape the rules of the one drop rule. Apparently if you had a little bit SSA you were dommed to be Black. I have seen the Utah White sample having small dose of Amerind and SSA. My friend who is a White American on 23andme is 2% SSA that I share with, but has no Amerindian. I am interested in the Amerindian genetic influence in White Americans. I do suspect that White Americans of colonial stock to have minor admix. Have you seen White Americans who score significant amount of Amerindian?

Varun R
12-22-2014, 09:55 AM
Alanson,

Might find the following intersting: http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297(14)00476-5. Study (open access) includes approximately 150,000 European American 23andMe customers.

rms2
12-22-2014, 01:09 PM
We had a legend on my mom's side of the family of some Amerindian ancestry. The story was that my maternal grandmother's mother was "half Indian". That didn't pan out, since my mtDNA haplogroup is the very European U5a2c3a, and there is no real sign of Amerindian in my autosomal test results. I have ordered a Family Finder test for my mother and am waiting for her to finally collect the samples and mail them in. Maybe there will be some Amerindian there, but I rather doubt it. There is no noticeable Amerindian in my father's Family Finder results, and his mtDNA haplogroup is K1a1.

No trace of SSA either.

Here's a photo of my maternal great grandmother, the one who was supposed to be "half Indian". You can see she had dark hair and high cheekbones. I think that is why someone thought she might be part Amerindian.

3259

ArmandoR1b
12-22-2014, 01:49 PM
Part of the problem with identifying Native American ancestry in non-Hispanic European Americans is that the admixture was very infrequent, happened 5 or more generations ago in a majority of cases, and there is a lack of samples from Native Americans in what is now the U.S.

Compounding that problem is that FTDNA did not include the HGDP samples of Maya, Pima and Columbian which 23andme and AncestryDNA uses. Eurogenes K13 uses Maya and Pima. Since FTDNA uses fewer populations the amount that is actually identified as NA is reduced by about 23%.

This can be seen by comparing the Clovis Anzick individual in Gedmatch kit F999919 and the specimen's results in FTDNA myOrigins at http://www.fc.id.au/2014/11/clovis-anzick-ethnic-makeup-in-ftdna.html and https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BqRB2XGxRG8/VGQU1TxRDHI/AAAAAAAAe7I/pZ4ZYBylsxA/s1600/FTDNA_myOrigins.PNG

If a person that is 100% NA marries a person that is 100% European then over 5 generations it should be reduced to about 3% but sometimes reduced to no identifiable NA. This can be especially true if myOrigins in FTDNA is relied upon. For a person that is 50% NA then it only takes 4 generations for that to happen.

rms2
12-22-2014, 01:56 PM
In my mother's family's case, this would be my mother's maternal grandmother, the source of my mtDNA haplogroup, which is U5a2c3a. Like I said, there is no trace of Amerindian in my FF results, but we'll see how things go when my mother's FF results finally come in. Surely if the Amerindian admixture is as close as my mother's maternal grandmother, it should show up. Personally, I suspect it was a story founded on nothing more than my great grandmother's long, straight, dark hair and high cheekbones. No one seemed to know who the original "Indian" was, if there really was one.

I should add that when I had my mtDNA tested by FTDNA, I was hoping for one of the haplogroups that are considered Amerindian in order to confirm the family legend. No such luck, however.

Gray Fox
12-22-2014, 03:05 PM
This is an interesting subject and it was certainly one of the reasons I had my DNA tested. I don't doubt the possibility of an unknown ancestor being of Native American descent, however distant or unlikely. Of the fairly distant accounts of my peoples interactions with the Amerindians, most have been negative. My ancestors being apart of the population that was used as a buffer-zone to keep the natives at bay and away from the more prestigious peoples of the eastern shores and port towns. I've always found the idea of the frontiersman taking a native bride to be a bit silly and more of a romantic fantasy than anything.

The fact remains that you're more likely to have Sub-Saharan African ancestry than you are Native American. Of course that is shameful to a lot of people so scooting it under the rug and relabeling it as something else is all too convenient. I've got a few y-dna cousins that are African American and along with my project admin, we have been trying to determine when the admixture took place. Its looking pretty recent, back to just after the civil war.

The only admixture tests that I have shown any more than half a percent for Native ancestry are those that give everyone an inflated result. As I said, its not an impossibility considering how long some of my people have been here, but I just don't see it as all that likely. To be completely honest, I find the notion of claiming it to be a bit offensive to actual Native Americans. Its more of a caricature than a sign of respect. I mean who dyes their hair jet-black to look more "Indian"??

alan
12-22-2014, 03:56 PM
We had a legend on my mom's side of the family of some Amerindian ancestry. The story was that my maternal grandmother's mother was "half Indian". That didn't pan out, since my mtDNA haplogroup is the very European U5a2c3a, and there is no real sign of Amerindian in my autosomal test results. I have ordered a Family Finder test for my mother and am waiting for her to finally collect the samples and mail them in. Maybe there will be some Amerindian there, but I rather doubt it. There is no noticeable Amerindian in my father's Family Finder results, and his mtDNA haplogroup is K1a1.

No trace of SSA either.

Here's a photo of my maternal great grandmother, the one who was supposed to be "half Indian". You can see she had dark hair and high cheekbones. I think that is why someone thought she might be part Amerindian.

3259

She looks kind of Irish or Scottish to me. Its very common for women of Gaelic ancestry to have prominent cheekbones. She also has an eye setting -sort of eyebrows that parallel the eyes close but wide eyes -that is very common among Irish women IMO. She's actually looks very like my Irish sister in law except she is light haired.

dp
12-22-2014, 04:25 PM
Compounding that problem is that FTDNA did not include the HGDP samples of Maya, Pima and Columbian which 23andme and AncestryDNA uses. Eurogenes K13 uses Maya and Pima. Since FTDNA uses fewer populations the amount that is actually identified as NA is reduced by about 23%.
Supposedly, 2 of my great-great grandmothers were of NA descent, and another distant ancestor too.
Initially I tested with FamilyTreeDNA to ascertain my amount of NA. It initially came up 91% Orcadian, 9% Middle Eastern. The new version reads 100% European. This is due to shifting my ME over the Med, which I think shows a bias to assume North Europeans dont want to see any African admixture; and from a North African perspective is contrary to admixture studies. To my chagrin, their util will not let me see the NA % of anyone else, or for that matter anything non-European.
I figured maybe I was too far down the tree from the N.A. ancestors and tested my mom. Still 100% European. Recently, I tested a maternal aunt with 23andme and still come up with 99.9% European (.01% Yakut <<don't believe). I wonder why the reputed NA ancestry was told to the detremit (sp?) of the true ancestry, which of course now is lost --whatever it may have been.
dp :-)

RCO
12-22-2014, 04:32 PM
In the case of the Brazilian Colonial People I think the Amerindian component is quite general and present, just like the old Neanderthal component. We are older in the American Continent, since the 1500's and our lands has had more Amerindians for more time and our process of conquest and colonization had less European women in the first centuries. I have 4% Amerindian from both my parents and 1% African.

ArmandoR1b
12-22-2014, 05:18 PM
Supposedly, 2 of my great-great grandmothers were of NA descent, and another distant ancestor too.
Initially I tested with FamilyTreeDNA to ascertain my amount of NA. It initially came up 91% Orcadian, 9% Middle Eastern. The new version reads 100% European. This is due to shifting my ME over the Med, which I think shows a bias to assume North Europeans dont want to see any African admixture; and from a North African perspective is contrary to admixture studies. To my chagrin, their util will not let me see the NA % of anyone else, or for that matter anything non-European.
I figured maybe I was too far down the tree from the N.A. ancestors and tested my mom. Still 100% European. Recently, I tested a maternal aunt with 23andme and still come up with 99.9% European (.01% Yakut <<don't believe). I wonder why the reputed NA ancestry was told to the detremit (sp?) of the true ancestry, which of course now is lost --whatever it may have been.
dp :-)

Yes, it is unfortunate that some secrets might be lost forever if there really was a secret. It is possible it was just a myth that will never be proven false.

ArmandoR1b
12-22-2014, 05:25 PM
In the case of the Brazilian Colonial People I think the Amerindian component is quite general and present, just like the old Neanderthal component. We are older in the American Continent, since the 1500's and our lands has had more Amerindians for more time and our process of conquest and colonization had less European women in the first centuries. I have 4% Amerindian from both my parents and 1% African.

Yes, it is definitely quite general and present. Someone with only 4% won't normally have physical traits of Amerindians as in the case of KakŠ, David Luiz, Oscar, and Dunga. However, in a majority of Brazilians the NA is evident as it is with the majority of Latin Americans.

dp
12-22-2014, 05:34 PM
Yes, it is unfortunate that some secrets might be lost forever if there really was a secret. It is possible it was just a myth that will never be proven false.

I have a Latina aunt so at least she may have some NA ancestry, and thus at least a few of my maternal cousins will too.
dp :-)

TŠltos
12-22-2014, 05:43 PM
Part of the problem with identifying Native American ancestry in non-Hispanic European Americans is that the admixture was very infrequent, happened 5 or more generations ago in a majority of cases, and there is a lack of samples from Native Americans in what is now the U.S.

Compounding that problem is that FTDNA did not include the HGDP samples of Maya, Pima and Columbian which 23andme and AncestryDNA uses. Eurogenes K13 uses Maya and Pima. Since FTDNA uses fewer populations the amount that is actually identified as NA is reduced by about 23%.

This can be seen by comparing the Clovis Anzick individual in Gedmatch kit F999919 and the specimen's results in FTDNA myOrigins at http://www.fc.id.au/2014/11/clovis-anzick-ethnic-makeup-in-ftdna.html and https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BqRB2XGxRG8/VGQU1TxRDHI/AAAAAAAAe7I/pZ4ZYBylsxA/s1600/FTDNA_myOrigins.PNG

If a person that is 100% NA marries a person that is 100% European then over 5 generations it should be reduced to about 3% but sometimes reduced to no identifiable NA. This can be especially true if myOrigins in FTDNA is relied upon. For a person that is 50% NA then it only takes 4 generations for that to happen.

Yeah, I'm still wondering why FTDNA left out the samples of Maya, Pima and Columbian. Notice how Anzick scores in the Finland and North Siberia category too.

ArmandoR1b
12-22-2014, 06:11 PM
Yeah, I'm still wondering why FTDNA left out the samples of Maya, Pima and Columbian. Notice how Anzick scores in the Finland and North Siberia category too.

Yes, I had brought up the Finland and North Siberia category for Latin Americans very shortly after myOrigins was released. A large number of Latin Americans get that due to our NA ancestry.

Razib Khan responded to an email about Maya, Pima and Colombian not being used and said it was because they have some European admixture which once I looked up the Moreno et al study on Mexican Indians I noticed that it showed that but at a very low amount.

AJL
12-22-2014, 06:49 PM
Besides in Latin American peoples, a small amount of First Nations ancestry is quite common in French Canadians (often somewhere around 1-2%) and usually results from known long-ago admixture followed by a long period of endogamy. Typically the affiliation of the ancestors is something like Cree, Abenaki, Mi'kmaq, Ojibwe (Anishinabe), or another Algonquian people.

TŠltos
12-22-2014, 08:19 PM
I can say this. People that I'm related to at 23andme, and have North American Colonial roots can sometimes have both very small percentages of African and EA/NA together. In the 0.1% up 0.9% range. They can have various combinations of these small numbers together. My Mom has it too, though I'm not sure if it's from her Colonial or Albanian roots.

Anyway I wonder if it might be from very early relations of African and Native slaves. Maybe their descendants went on to have children with the Europeans. EDIT to add- And why they might have combination of these small percentages.

SwampThing27
12-22-2014, 08:33 PM
I share with 35 people on 23andme who are basically colonial American stock and I would say that about 25% of them have Native American that shows up on there. Most who have NA also have a small amount of SSA as well. Then I would say another 25% have SSA with no NA shown (like me). I know that a lot of the older folks I share with show NA, while the people more my age show either small SSA or only European. Surprisingly, several of us show a very small amount of Sardinian as well for whatever reason. None more than my 1% though. Probably noise.

ViktorL1
12-22-2014, 09:26 PM
I know that in the US there is romantic notion of the Native American peoples and many White Americans claim to descent from the Amerindians, but honestly it seems most often Cherokee, but never the other tribes. I have seen White American genetic tests they often are 100% European, though a small amount show SSA and Amerind genetics. I read that some people who wanted to pass as White but looked kinda exotic often claimed Cherokee ancestry, this was in order to escape the rules of the one drop rule. Apparently if you had a little bit SSA you were dommed to be Black. I have seen the Utah White sample having small dose of Amerind and SSA. My friend who is a White American on 23andme is 2% SSA that I share with, but has no Amerindian. I am interested in the Amerindian genetic influence in White Americans. I do suspect that White Americans of colonial stock to have minor admix. Have you seen White Americans who score significant amount of Amerindian?

The Native American population of North America was very, very low compared to that of Mesoamerica. Furthermore, Smallpox and quasi-genocidal policies of the early settlers wiped out most tribal groups east of the Mississippi river before there was a chance for much mixture. I'm, not saying that there was no intermingling between the two groups, but English settlement started nearly a century after the introduction of smallpox.

It was a completely different story in Latin America. Early Spanish policy encouraged the "Christianization" of the native Americans, and indigenous Americans and Mestizos are a majority in some countries today.

tamilgangster
12-23-2014, 05:36 AM
Most white Americans ancestors only came to the US until he late 1800 early 1900s, but Americans whos ancestry dates back to the pilgrim days, tend to show minor levels of SSA and NA. Also, many aframs also have visible traces of Native american blood

Alanson
12-23-2014, 09:08 AM
Thanks for the answers, I have wondered about the subject myself to be honest. I was interested in Amerindian cultures and their interaction with Europeans. However I became more interested when many White Americans claim Amerindian ancestry, but I was puzzled when they often claimed cherokee, I mean like I said in the previous post there is more tribes out there like the Chumash and Tongva for example and yet I don't see much White Americans claiming ancestry from them. It's true it seems people seem to have more likely to get SSA minor admix than Amerind, but there has to be an Amerind lineage in some people. Though I don't get why people would be ashamed of having trivial amounts of SSA admixture in the first place, though knowing the history I guess makes it so. A lot of Native Americans do find this kinda disrespectful and shows them not in a normal light but as noble savages which is offensive to them. Though all the answers here make sense. Thanks a lot for the info.

Gray Fox
12-23-2014, 12:16 PM
All this talk of potential African and Amerindian ancestry has me interested. Which admix run would give you the best idea of such? I have all of the runs saved and I was going through them to see if I could find a potential pattern. Nothing seems to be consistent beyond my usual percentage of less than one percent or zero for both ethnicities. When do these percentages begin to reveal true, potential ancestry and when do they indicate noise? From what I've seen most everyone has a miniscule percentage of African dna and Amerindian, regardless of where they're from.

rms2
12-23-2014, 01:41 PM
I have known a lot of people over the years who have claimed Cherokee ancestry. The Cherokees must have been a humongous tribe! A fairly recent notorious claim of Cherokee ancestry, used to enhance a resumť and her politically correct bonafides, was that of American politician Elizabeth Warren.

Regarding SSA ancestry among otherwise white Americans, I don't think it all that extensive, honestly (although I suspect I will be branded a racist merely for saying that). The taboos and negative consequences were just too severe up until quite recently to allow for much interbreeding. When it did occur, the offspring were generally considered black (or mulatto) and subsequently married back into the SSA population when the time came for them to marry. That is why it is much more common for black Americans to have European ancestry than for white Americans to have any appreciable percentage of African ancestry.

Of course, this topic is so politically charged as to be nearly impossible to discuss rationally, at least for very long.

jeanL
12-23-2014, 03:12 PM
There is no account as to who many European Americans score below 1% African, and in the below 1% range things get funky, because it could be noise, or it could be real. These people who get below 1% in 23andme, might not get anything if they test with FTDNA. Anyhow: Here is a couple of maps that might provide some accountability as to the SSA admixture extent into European(White) Americans:

A map showing the amount of European Americans showing 1% or more African admixture, this map came from preliminary findings from researcher Kasia Bryc who back in March 2014 found:



In an update to that work, our researcher Kasia Bryc found that about about 4 percent of whites have at least 1 percent or more African ancestry.

Although it is a relatively small percentage, the percentage indicates that an individual with at least 1 percent African ancestry had an African ancestor within the last six generations, or in the last 200 years. This data also suggests that individuals with mixed parentage at some point were absorbed into the white population.

Looking a little more deeply into the data, Kasia also found that the percentage of whites with hidden African ancestry differed significantly from state-to-state. Southern states with the highest African American populations, tended to have the highest percentages of hidden African ancestry. In South Carolina at least 13 percent of self-identified whites have 1 percent or more African ancestry, while in Louisiana the number is a little more than 12 percent. In Georgia and Alabama the number is about 9 percent. The differences perhaps point to different social and cultural histories within the south.

Read more at http://blog.23andme.com/23andme-research/dna-usa-2/#CqqK8SxOpp6BEkiB.99

3265

A study was later published on Arxiv, and I think just recently in a Journal, in here the threshold was raised to 2% instead of 1%.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dViY-OVquN4/VBs9Txr7KjI/AAAAAAAAJzA/8S6V3ym95ng/s1600/ea.jpg

Now something to keep in mind though, is that these maps include European Americans, that is, anyone here who identifies as European. I'm sure if the map was that of White American of Colonial descent only, the percentages of both Amerindian and SSA would be somewhat higher.

It seems the state of Louisiana stands out in both having the highest percentage of Whites with SSA, and also at the same time the highest percentage of Whites with Native American.

TŠltos
12-23-2014, 03:43 PM
All this talk of potential African and Amerindian ancestry has me interested. Which admix run would give you the best idea of such? I have all of the runs saved and I was going through them to see if I could find a potential pattern. Nothing seems to be consistent beyond my usual percentage of less than one percent or zero for both ethnicities. When do these percentages begin to reveal true, potential ancestry and when do they indicate noise? From what I've seen most everyone has a miniscule percentage of African dna and Amerindian, regardless of where they're from.

Sam I have always heard that Dodecad World 9 is supposed to best for finding Amerindian on Gedmatch.

rms2
12-23-2014, 03:48 PM
Reading between the lines, it seems the bulk of those with greater than 1% African ancestry (is this SSA ancestry in all cases or just generic "African"?) have 2% African ancestry or less. Perhaps the threshold was raised to >2% because less than that is of questionable provenance?

Of course, it is no surprise that the greatest amount of African admixture would occur where there was a source population of persons of African descent.

Gray Fox
12-23-2014, 03:50 PM
Sam I have always heard that Dodecad World 9 is supposed to best for finding Amerindian on Gedmatch.

Hmm. I score .20% for Amerindian and .66% for African. Still seems like a stretch to label that as anything but noise.

rms2
12-23-2014, 03:55 PM
Sam I have always heard that Dodecad World 9 is supposed to best for finding Amerindian on Gedmatch.

Here are my Dodecad World 9 results:

Population
Amerindian 1.10%
East_Asian -
African -
Atlantic_Baltic 73.31%
Australasian 0.23%
Siberian 0.45%
Caucasus_Gedrosia 11.85%
Southern 12.50%
South_Asian 0.56%

I did score just over 1% Amerindian. I wonder how my mom will score once her FF results come in.

What is "Southern"?

Gray Fox
12-23-2014, 04:02 PM
Here's mine..

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 71.29
2 Caucasus_Gedrosia 13.67
3 Southern 12.49
4 South_Asian 1.21
5 African 0.66
6 Australasian 0.48
7 Amerindian 0.2

TŠltos
12-23-2014, 04:03 PM
Hmm. I score .20% for Amerindian and .66% for African. Still seems like a stretch to label that as anything but noise.

You can still look and see if any of your matches have Amerindian or African haplogroups, or admixture, and then see where you guys match and what is the corresponding admixture on that spot of your chromosome. You can also look at the Admixture Proportions by Chromosome feature on Gedmatch. That will give you a better idea of the percentage of a particular admixture across all of your chromosomes.

If I remember correctly you tested at FTDNA, not 23andme? If so, it is not so easy to look at everyone's haplogroup, and though you have to send for sharing on 23andme, at least when you are sharing you get to see the whole AC with chromosome painting. At FTDNA no chromosome painting, and very, and I mean very limited on what you can see for your matches myOrigins. So look at Gedmatch for all of this.

TŠltos
12-23-2014, 04:04 PM
Here are my Dodecad World 9 results:

Population
Amerindian 1.10%
East_Asian -
African -
Atlantic_Baltic 73.31%
Australasian 0.23%
Siberian 0.45%
Caucasus_Gedrosia 11.85%
Southern 12.50%
South_Asian 0.56%

I did score just over 1% Amerindian. I wonder how my mom will score once her FF results come in.

What is "Southern"?

Southern is Mediterranean, Southern Europe.

rms2
12-23-2014, 04:11 PM
Here are my dad's World 9 results:

Population
Amerindian 1.19%
East_Asian -
African 0.14%
Atlantic_Baltic 70.79%
Australasian 0.23%
Siberian 0.09%
Caucasus_Gedrosia 12.68%
Southern 13.75%
South_Asian 1.08%

He actually scored slightly higher than I on the Amerindian thing, which makes me think it's noise, since the family Amerindian legend comes from my mom's side of the family.

The name "World 9" makes me smile, because it reminds me of "Plan 9 From Outer Space". Great film. Lots of laughs.


http://youtu.be/u2ukRYsYPmo

TŠltos
12-23-2014, 04:22 PM
Here are my dad's World 9 results:

Population
Amerindian 1.19%
East_Asian -
African 0.14%
Atlantic_Baltic 70.79%
Australasian 0.23%
Siberian 0.09%
Caucasus_Gedrosia 12.68%
Southern 13.75%
South_Asian 1.08%

He actually scored slightly higher than I on the Amerindian thing, which makes me think it's noise, since the family Amerindian legend comes from my mom's side of the family.

The name "World 9" makes me smile, because it reminds me of "Plan 9 From Outer Space". Great film. Lots of laughs.


http://youtu.be/u2ukRYsYPmo

Or it's a "sticky" segment. At 23andme I score 0.9% Ashkenazi in all three modes, my daughter has 0.9 in conservative and standard. In speculative she gets the whole big 1%. She and I also have a whole slew of Jewish matches on our chromosome 7. And then of course my brother's Y haplogroup ended up being a very interesting one too.

-LOL on Plan 9!

jeanL
12-23-2014, 04:26 PM
Reading between the lines, it seems the bulk of those with greater than 1% African ancestry (is this SSA ancestry in all cases or just generic "African"?) have 2% African ancestry or less.

Yeah I too was wondering about that? They make it seem like it is SSA, well, come to think of it, at 23andme North African is grouped under Middle Eastern/North African, whereas on Ancestry DNA is grouped under African.

TŠltos
12-23-2014, 04:34 PM
Yeah I too was wondering about that? They make it seem like it is SSA, well, come to think of it, at 23andme North African is grouped under Middle Eastern/North African, whereas on Ancestry DNA is grouped under African.

FTDNA also puts their North African under the Middle East.

From 23andme:
Sub-Saharan African
The genetic diversity of Sub-Saharan Africa reflects both the deep history of humans in the region and the recent migrations that have carried the diversity of western Africa to both southern and eastern Africa.

They have Sub-Saharan broken down further to West Africa, Central and South African, and then to East African subcategories.

ArmandoR1b
12-23-2014, 04:35 PM
The difference between World9 and Eurogenes K13 aren't all that different. The amounts are just distributed slightly differently.

Eurogenes K13 of Clovis Anzick
Kit Number: F999919

Population
North_Atlantic 0.57%
Baltic 2.36%
West_Med 1.17%
West_Asian -
East_Med -
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian 1.16%
Siberian 4.80%
Amerindian 89.10%
Oceanian 0.42%
Northeast_African 0.41%
Sub-Saharan -


World9 results of Clovis Anzick
Kit Number: F999919

Population
Amerindian 89.86%
East_Asian 1.70%
African 1.08%
Atlantic_Baltic 1.79%
Australasian 0.24%
Siberian 4.45%
Caucasus_Gedrosia 0.72%
Southern 0.10%
South_Asian 0.05%


For comparison here are the results of a Mexican

Eurogenes K13
Population
North_Atlantic 27.94%
Baltic 5.62%
West_Med 21.00%
West_Asian -
East_Med 6.46%
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 1.67%
East_Asian 1.23%
Siberian 2.02%
Amerindian 30.93%
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.06%
Sub-Saharan 3.01%

World9
Population
Amerindian 31.48%
East_Asian 1.02%
African 2.66%
Atlantic_Baltic 41.37%
Australasian -
Siberian 1.94%
Caucasus_Gedrosia 3.12%
Southern 17.07%
South_Asian 1.33%

ArmandoR1b
12-23-2014, 04:42 PM
Here are my dad's World 9 results:

Population
Amerindian 1.19%
East_Asian -
African 0.14%
Atlantic_Baltic 70.79%
Australasian 0.23%
Siberian 0.09%
Caucasus_Gedrosia 12.68%
Southern 13.75%
South_Asian 1.08%

He actually scored slightly higher than I on the Amerindian thing, which makes me think it's noise, since the family Amerindian legend comes from my mom's side of the family.



It could be noise but Sam Isaack only has 0.2 Amerindian in his results.


The following person is half Irish and half German. No colonial ancestry at all. The Amerindian in this person is definitely noise.

World9
Population
Amerindian 0.38%
East_Asian 0.14%
African 0.07%
Atlantic_Baltic 72.98%
Australasian -
Siberian 0.15%
Caucasus_Gedrosia 12.47%
Southern 12.99%
South_Asian 0.82%

rms2
12-23-2014, 04:54 PM
Here are my Eurogenes K13 results:

Population
North_Atlantic 51.40%
Baltic 23.05%
West_Med 12.77%
West_Asian 4.96%
East_Med 4.04%
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 1.47%
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.96%
Amerindian 0.93%
Oceanian 0.12%
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.26%

And my dad's:

Population
North_Atlantic 47.58%
Baltic 24.58%
West_Med 11.31%
West_Asian 3.60%
East_Med 7.61%
Red_Sea 2.21%
South_Asian 0.77%
East_Asian 0.25%
Siberian 0.11%
Amerindian 1.25%
Oceanian 0.48%
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.24%

Dad still manages 1.25% Amerindian, so who knows? Still, that doesn't seem like much, and how much could my mom be contributing of that if I have less than my dad does?

ArmandoR1b
12-23-2014, 05:39 PM
Here are my Eurogenes K13 results:

Dad still manages 1.25% Amerindian, so who knows? Still, that doesn't seem like much, and how much could my mom be contributing of that if I have less than my dad does?

Your amount should be close to half of your father's + your mother's. So 0.5*(x+1.25%)=0.93% is 0.61% for your mother. So she should have even less than your father and you.

For comparison two parents that total 49.41% with their NA added together had two children. Dividing that total by 2 the children should each be close to 24.7%. One child turned out to be 22.99% and the other 24.74%.

rms2
12-23-2014, 05:43 PM
I figured it had to be something like that. It means that my dad seems more likely to have Amerindian ancestry than my mom does, and my mom's side is the source of the family legend. Honestly, I doubt that my dad has any Amerindian ancestry either.

ArmandoR1b
12-23-2014, 05:53 PM
You are likely correct. It would be interesting to see the results of a lot of Europeans that don't have ancestry in the U.S. at all. Then we could see the range of noise for Amerindian at Gedmatch.

rms2
12-23-2014, 06:26 PM
It's kind of disappointing, really. I was hoping for a substantial share of Amerindian and an Amerindian mtDNA haplogroup. Then I could have applied for a government job, gotten some "affirmative action" points, and maybe have grown my hair long and become an activist. ;)

Gray Fox
12-23-2014, 06:30 PM
Another Colonial American example. My K13 run..

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 47.61
2 Baltic 22.28
3 West_Med 16.13
4 West_Asian 7.7
5 South_Asian 2.36
6 Red_Sea 1.33
7 East_Med 1.03
8 Oceanian 0.8
9 Northeast_African 0.77

Gray Fox
12-23-2014, 06:38 PM
You are likely correct. It would be interesting to see the results of a lot of Europeans that don't have ancestry in the U.S. at all. Then we could see the range of noise for Amerindian at Gedmatch.

There are a few Brits on here who have posted their runs. I'm sure they wouldn't mind if we quoted them here. Especially since these runs have been posted on threads where non-members can see. So long as actual names aren't used without permission I don't see the harm.

dp
12-23-2014, 06:56 PM
Here are some World9 totals of NA & African components. As kits are my closest matches they are probably of people from Eastern & Southern US:
3267

Also, this is from the World9 spreadsheet, sorted by NA % [populations >5%]
3268

This is extracted from Eurogenes K13 spreadsheet, sorted by NA % [populations >3%]
3269

Notice the further north the population the greater the Siberian component.
dp :-)

dp
12-23-2014, 06:59 PM
There are a few Brits on here who have posted their runs. I'm sure they wouldn't mind if we quoted them here. Especially since these runs have been posted on threads where non-members can see. So long as actual names aren't used without permission I don't see the harm.

I agree. I just posted a bunch of American with ids removed, it would be nice to see the contrast.
dp

Calamus
12-23-2014, 07:04 PM
You are likely correct. It would be interesting to see the results of a lot of Europeans that don't have ancestry in the U.S. at all. Then we could see the range of noise for Amerindian at Gedmatch.

For comparison here are my results (Norwegian with no ancestors born in the U.S.)

my world 9 results:
Population
Amerindian -
East_Asian -
African -
Atlantic_Baltic 81.03%
Australasian 0.80%
Siberian 2.21%
Caucasus_Gedrosia 9.28%
Southern 6.52%
South_Asian 0.16%

my Eurogenes K13 results:
Population
North_Atlantic 51.41%
Baltic 29.59%
West_Med 7.54%
West_Asian 4.31%
East_Med 1.96%
Red_Sea 1.52%
South_Asian 0.20%
East_Asian -
Siberian 1.37%
Amerindian 0.64%
Oceanian 1.12%
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.33%

TŠltos
12-23-2014, 07:32 PM
The name "World 9" makes me smile, because it reminds me of "Plan 9 From Outer Space". Great film. Lots of laughs.


http://youtu.be/u2ukRYsYPmo
My Plan 9, 3 Ancestor oracle best fit.
Vampire 50%+ Zombie 25%+ Space Alien 25%

Sorry I just can't help myself sometimes! rms2 that really cracked me up, and brought back memories of watching cheesy B movies as a kid! :biggrin1:

TŠltos
12-23-2014, 07:51 PM
It's kind of disappointing, really. I was hoping for a substantial share of Amerindian and an Amerindian mtDNA haplogroup. Then I could have applied for a government job, gotten some "affirmative action" points, and maybe have grown my hair long and become an activist. ;)
I only put a thanks on this post because I thought the growing your hair long part was funny. But I don't think most people go into it for that. I think a lot just want to confirm their family legends to connect with their ancestors.

Here in the U.S. family histories are getting lost within only 2 generations for recent immigrants. Who really knows all the twists for those of us with Colonial roots.

SwampThing27
12-23-2014, 08:18 PM
My family lines are all from the Southeast US. I have SSA ancestry on 23andme, but no NA:

World9

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 69.14
2 Southern 13.92
3 Caucasus_Gedrosia 12.51
4 South_Asian 2.5
5 African 0.84
6 Siberian 0.56
7 Amerindian 0.29
8 Australasian 0.23

K13
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 47.34
2 Baltic 21.2
3 West_Med 14.39
4 West_Asian 5.59
5 East_Med 4.5
6 South_Asian 3.25
7 Sub-Saharan 1.27
8 Red_Sea 0.96
9 Amerindian 0.62
10 Oceanian 0.46
11 Siberian 0.44

jeanL
12-23-2014, 08:43 PM
Here are my maternal great-aunt(Maternal Grandfather's younger sister) World-9 results:

Population
Amerindian 3.03%
East_Asian -
African 4.08%
Atlantic_Baltic 56.50%
Australasian -
Siberian 0.14%
Caucasus_Gedrosia 8.27%
Southern 27.17%
South_Asian 0.82%

Here are her top oracle scores:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Brazilian (Dodecad) 5.05
2 Murcia (1000 Genomes) 5.46
3 Extremadura (1000 Genomes) 5.73

[...]

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 76.4% Baleares (1000 Genomes) + 23.6% PUR30 @ 0.79
2 82.8% Baleares (1000 Genomes) + 17.2% Puerto_Rican @ 0.94
3 77.2% Andalucia (1000 Genomes) + 22.8% PUR30 @ 1.19


Oracle-4:

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Brazilian +50% Murcia @ 1.397547

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Brazilian +25% North_Italian +25% Canarias @ 0.659067

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 North_Italian + PUR30 + Castilla_La_Mancha + Castilla_Y_Leon @ 0.503514
2 North_Italian + PUR30 + Castilla_La_Mancha + Castilla_La_Mancha @ 0.599173
3 North_Italian + PUR30 + Galicia + Castilla_Y_Leon @ 0.620264

She is of Colonial Cuban descent, except for 1-Great-Great grandparent from La CoruŮa, Galicia. She tested on 23andme v4, which is somewhat lower quality, 23andme gives her ~4% East Asian/Native American, and 2.1% SSA, out of which 1.9% is West African.

jeanL
12-23-2014, 08:47 PM
Here are the results for different parts of Iberia for references:

Amerindian

Portuguese_D(n=8) 0.1%

Spanish_D(n=19) 0.2%

Spaniards(n=10) 0.1%

Canarias_1KG(n=2) 0.1%

Galicia_1KG(n=8) 0.2%

Aragon_1KG(n=6) 0.1%

Valencia_1KG(n=10) 0.1%

Andalucia_1KG(n=4) 0.1%

Murcia_1KG(n=8) 0.3%

Baleares_1KG(n=6) 0.1%

Cataluna_1KG(n=8) 0.2%

Pais_Vasco_1KG(n=7) 0.1%

Cantabria_1KG(n=6) 0.3%

Extremadura_1KG(n=8) 0.2%

Castilla_La_Mancha_1KG(n=6) 0.2%

Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG(n=12) 0.1%

African

Portuguese_D(n=8) 2.3%

Spanish_D(n=19) 0.9%

Spaniards(n=10) 0.9%

Canarias_1KG(n=2) 4.1%

Galicia_1KG(n=8) 1.6%

Aragon_1KG(n=6) 0.2%

Valencia_1KG(n=10) 0.8%

Andalucia_1KG(n=4) 1.4%

Murcia_1KG(n=8) 2.0%

Baleares_1KG(n=6) 0.7%

Cataluna_1KG(n=8) 0.4%

Pais_Vasco_1KG(n=7) 0%

Cantabria_1KG(n=6) 0.8%

Extremadura_1KG(n=8) 2.1%

Castilla_La_Mancha_1KG(n=6) 1.0%

Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG(n=12) 1.3%

South_Asian

Portuguese_D(n=8) 0.7%

Spanish_D(n=19) 0.4%

Spaniards(n=10) 0.3%

Canarias_1KG(n=2) 0.3%

Galicia_1KG(n=8) 0.9%

Aragon_1KG(n=6) 0.5%

Valencia_1KG(n=10) 0.4%

Andalucia_1KG(n=4) 0.1%

Murcia_1KG(n=8) 0.4%

Baleares_1KG(n=6) 0.3%

Cataluna_1KG(n=8) 0.7%

Pais_Vasco_1KG(n=7) 0.3%

Cantabria_1KG(n=6) 0.1%

Extremadura_1KG(n=8) 0.6%

Castilla_La_Mancha_1KG(n=6) 0.8%

Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG(n=12) 0.7%

dp
12-23-2014, 08:55 PM
Here are the results for different parts of Iberia for references:

Thanks a lot. I like that you know the sample sizes.
dp

Salkin
12-23-2014, 09:51 PM
Eurogenes K13. Curiously high figures given our complete absence of colonial history.

Me:

1 North_Atlantic 50.55
2 Baltic 28.68
3 West_Med 10.35
4 West_Asian 2.86
5 South_Asian 2.34
6 East_Med 2.07
7 Red_Sea 1.42
8 Amerindian 1.38

My mother:

1 North_Atlantic 48.80
2 Baltic 30.42
3 West_Med 12.06
4 West_Asian 2.42
5 Red_Sea 1.81
6 South_Asian 1.70
7 Amerindian 1.60

RCO
12-23-2014, 10:09 PM
My results
Dodecad World 9
# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 60.31
2 Southern 23.51
3 Caucasus_Gedrosia 6.52
4 Amerindian 4.69
5 African 3.31
6 Australasian 1.32

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Brazilian @ 6.011187
2 Extremadura @ 6.560573
3 Portuguese @ 6.868146
4 Galicia @ 6.899601
5 Spaniards @ 7.248681
6 Castilla_La_Mancha @ 7.318062

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Brazilian +50% Cataluna @ 2.441773

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Spanish +25% French +25% PUR30 @ 1.961384

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 French + PUR30 + Cantabria + Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.912038
----------------------

Eurogenes K13
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 35.74
2 West_Med 22.11
3 Baltic 15.53
4 East_Med 13.49
5 Amerindian 4.21
6 Northeast_African 2.64
7 Sub-Saharan 1.58
8 Oceanian 1.53
9 Red_Sea 1.49
10 West_Asian 0.89
11 South_Asian 0.62
12 Siberian 0.16

# Population (source) Distance
1 Portuguese 7.38
2 Spanish_Galicia 8.26
3 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 8.77
4 Spanish_Cataluna 8.9
5 Spanish_Extremadura 9.15
6 Spanish_Murcia 9.29
7 Spanish_Valencia 9.63
8 French 9.89
9 Spanish_Cantabria 10.79
10 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 10.84
11 North_Italian 11.21
12 Spanish_Andalucia 11.24
13 Southwest_French 11.91
14 Spanish_Aragon 13.12
15 West_German 13.91
16 South_Dutch 14.47
17 Tuscan 16.13
18 Serbian 17.06
19 Austrian 17.19
20 Romanian 17.53

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 90.2% Portuguese + 9.8% MA-1 @ 4.73
2 87.7% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon + 12.3% MA-1 @ 4.83
3 95.4% Portuguese + 4.6% Pima @ 5.32
4 95.9% Portuguese + 4.1% Karitiana @ 5.37
5 94.8% Portuguese + 5.2% North_Amerindian @ 5.38
6 95.3% Portuguese + 4.7% Mayan @ 5.39
7 88.1% Spanish_Cataluna + 11.9% MA-1 @ 5.43
8 87.4% Spanish_Murcia + 12.6% MA-1 @ 5.43
9 87.7% Portuguese + 12.3% Kargopol_Russian @ 5.45
10 88.7% Portuguese + 11.3% Erzya @ 5.49
11 87% Portuguese + 13% Southwest_Russian @ 5.5
12 86.9% Spanish_Valencia + 13.1% MA-1 @ 5.54
13 87.4% Portuguese + 12.6% Estonian_Polish @ 5.55
14 85.5% Portuguese + 14.5% Ukrainian @ 5.56
15 88.2% Portuguese + 11.8% Estonian @ 5.59
16 88.9% Portuguese + 11.1% Lithuanian @ 5.6
17 87.5% Portuguese + 12.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 5.6
18 82% Portuguese + 18% Croatian @ 5.6
19 87.7% Portuguese + 12.3% Belorussian @ 5.62
20 85.2% Portuguese + 14.8% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 5.62

Calamus
12-24-2014, 10:41 AM
Eurogenes K13. Curiously high figures given our complete absence of colonial history.

Me:

1 North_Atlantic 50.55
2 Baltic 28.68
3 West_Med 10.35
4 West_Asian 2.86
5 South_Asian 2.34
6 East_Med 2.07
7 Red_Sea 1.42
8 Amerindian 1.38

My mother:

1 North_Atlantic 48.80
2 Baltic 30.42
3 West_Med 12.06
4 West_Asian 2.42
5 Red_Sea 1.81
6 South_Asian 1.70
7 Amerindian 1.60

Your Amerindian is a little on the high side, but not unreasonable. It is normal for Scandinavians (same is true for Irish and Scots) to get around 0-1% Ameridian in this test. I think the reason for this is that the pre-Amerindian population split with one group going east across the Bering Strait and another group going west towards Europe. So, if you have northwestern European ancestry, you probably will get trace amounts of Ameridian ancestry which is real but not an indication of Ameridian ancestry. It just tells you that you have deep roots in Northwest Europe.



BTW we have a match on Chr 10 on Gedmatch (I am kit M060324). I have Swedish ancestry from Všrmland.

FTDNA (F367588):
Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 500 SNPs
Mismatch-bunching Limit = 250 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 5.0 cM
Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
10 65356704 71876350 8.0 813

23andMe(M606752):
Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 500 SNPs
Mismatch-bunching Limit = 250 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 5.0 cM
Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
10 65356704 71322586 6.6 1131

Salkin
12-24-2014, 11:59 AM
Your Amerindian is a little on the high side, but not unreasonable. It is normal for Scandinavians (same is true for Irish and Scots) to get around 0-1% Ameridian in this test. I think the reason for this is that the pre-Amerindian population split with one group going east across the Bering Strait and another group going west towards Europe. So, if you have northwestern European ancestry, you probably will get trace amounts of Ameridian ancestry which is real but not an indication of Ameridian ancestry. It just tells you that you have deep roots in Northwest Europe.

Thanks, that makes sense.


BTW we have a match on Chr 10 on Gedmatch (I am kit M060324). I have Swedish ancestry from Všrmland.

Neat. I've only just gotten started building my family tree. I don't know of any roots from Všrmland specifically, but it isn't too far from where most of my known family history is from, just the other side of Lake Všnern. People did get around even in the old days, so it's quite possibly IBD. And I know my mother has an aunt and cousins in Norway.

Gray Fox
12-24-2014, 02:48 PM
Here's my K15 run. For comparison here is a British persons run as well.

Mine

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 38.25
2 Atlantic 24.5
3 West_Med 12.12
4 Eastern_Euro 8.41
5 Baltic 7.79
6 West_Asian 5.17
7 South_Asian 1.9
8 Red_Sea 0.66
9 Northeast_African 0.66
10 Oceanian 0.5
11 East_Med 0.04
12 Sub-Saharan 0.01

Brit:

1 North_Sea 34.34
2 Atlantic 24.73
3 Baltic 11.82
4 Eastern_Euro 8.91
5 West_Med 8.52
6 East_Med 4.31
7 West_Asian 3.67
8 Red_Sea 1.7
9 South_Asian 0.89
10 Sub-Saharan 0.56
11 Oceanian 0.41
12 Amerindian 0.13
13 Northeast_African 0.01

rms2
12-24-2014, 03:42 PM
I only put a thanks on this post because I thought the growing your hair long part was funny. But I don't think most people go into it for that. I think a lot just want to confirm their family legends to connect with their ancestors.

Here in the U.S. family histories are getting lost within only 2 generations for recent immigrants. Who really knows all the twists for those of us with Colonial roots.

I was half joking, but I really would have tried to use "affirmative action" had I gotten a substantial Amerindian result. For me it would have been an act of vengeance for what I regard as a discriminatory practice and the fact that I was screwed out of a job years ago because of "affirmative action".

jeanL
12-24-2014, 04:14 PM
It seems that the "African" component in World9 might be more than just SSA, because almost everybody of Iberian descent scores more on World-9 than they do in 23andme. Whereas those of nonIberian descent score the same. So possibly some North African is being dumped into the "African" category.

jeanL
12-24-2014, 04:22 PM
I was half joking, but I really would have tried to use "affirmative action" had I gotten a substantial Amerindian result. For me it would have been an act of vengeance for what I regard as a discriminatory practice and the fact that I was screwed out of a job years ago because of "affirmative action".

Would ~4% count as significant, per 23andme, ancestry and other test I seem to be around 4% Native American, unfortunately I haven't been able to trace it genealogically.

rms2
12-24-2014, 07:40 PM
Probably not, but it would be fun to force the government to define what it means by its racial categories.

ArmandoR1b
12-24-2014, 07:56 PM
Would ~4% count as significant, per 23andme, ancestry and other test I seem to be around 4% Native American, unfortunately I haven't been able to trace it genealogically.

Based on the spreadsheets from the Eurogenes and Dodecad calculators and what others have posted for their Native American amounts 4% isn't noise, if that's what you are asking, the problem with finding it in documented ancestry is that descendants of Spaniards in the New World tried to hide their Native American ancestry. As long as they were only 25% or less Native American they could be considered Spanish and that is what they would declare themselves. The 4% is real but not enough to consider yourself Native American. I know several people that are as much as 25% Native American based on their DNA results and documented ancestry but you wouldn't know it by looking at them. They are so light that most people don't believe that they are even Hispanic, much less Native American.

Krefter
12-24-2014, 08:08 PM
My father scores about 6% Amerindian in Eurogenes K13, and I score 2.83% Eurogenes K13. We know we have Amerindian ancestry because were part Latino. Something surprising though is that my dad has an ancestral allele in rs1426654 and rs16891982, and has very brown skin(Amerindian-like). I have an ancestral allele in rs16891982. It's surprising because he's 90% European, and he has an ancestral allele because of such a small amount of non-Euro ancestry.

ArmandoR1b
12-24-2014, 08:33 PM
My father scores about 6% Amerindian in Eurogenes K13, and I score 2.83% Eurogenes K13. We know we have Amerindian ancestry because were part Latino. Something surprising though is that my dad has an ancestral allele in rs1426654 and rs16891982, and has very brown skin(Amerindian-like). I have an ancestral allele in rs16891982. It's surprising because he's 90% European, and he has an ancestral allele because of such a small amount of non-Euro ancestry.

Krefter, thank you for posting that information. I have always wondered if the ~50% inheritance would hold up at that low of a percentage. I had more examples of parent-child trios of Latinos, other than the one I had posted, but none of them at that low of a level. So far the noise level seems to be <2% which is a level I have never trusted for proving ancestry. So many people think that <2% is enough but since there isn't documentation to be able to prove them wrong it has been hard to point to an example of definite noise at <2%.

Native American is one of the few ethnicities that the amounts can be divided by ~50% per generation as long as it only existed in one of the parents. If it exists in both parents then it has to be added between the two and divided by 2 to determine what the children should have.

jeanL
12-24-2014, 08:49 PM
Based on the spreadsheets from the Eurogenes and Dodecad calculators and what others have posted for their Native American amounts 4% isn't noise, if that's what you are asking, the problem with finding it in documented ancestry is that descendants of Spaniards in the New World tried to hide their Native American ancestry. As long as they were only 25% or less Native American they could be considered Spanish and that is what they would declare themselves. The 4% is real but not enough to consider yourself Native American. I know several people that are as much as 25% Native American based on their DNA results and documented ancestry but you wouldn't know it by looking at them. They are so light that most people don't believe that they are even Hispanic, much less Native American.

I know its not noise, I tested with 23andme and I got 3.6% Native American/East Asian out of which 3.4% is Native American. This was after I linked my account to my parents' account. Before it had me as 2.9%, namely because I have a good chunk on chromosome 9. The vast majority of my native comes from my Paternal Grandmother who is 5% Native American, my mom on the other hand is only 1.5% East Asian/Native American out of which 1.1% is Native American, and I only got 0.6% of my East/Asian and Native from her, 3.0% from my dad, who in turn 90% of it from his mom. So the 50% generation thing doesn't work, in fact going by my grandparents results I should have been 2.7% Native American, instead I turned out to be 3.6%. My grandmother has 7/16 Great-Great Grandparents born in the Canary Islands, the other ones show evidence of Canary Islander descent, and we think some of them might have been part Floridian, and that's the link I am trying to explore. AncestryDNA gives me 4% Native, and is nontrace, unlike my North African score which is trace region, and the range of the Native is 3%-6%, so I know is real, but it seem to be rather old, because I have a pretty extensive family tree and haven't been able to trace it yet. Here is my grandmother's 23andme results:

https://www.23andme.com/published/ancestry/composition/d9f4e0cdbb39d545/032eb6d9c74bd69f/

PS: My grandmother is derived in all European pigmentation SNPs including the one for eyes, she has green-blue eyes, and had blond hair when young.

jeanL
12-24-2014, 09:02 PM
My father scores about 6% Amerindian in Eurogenes K13, and I score 2.83% Eurogenes K13. We know we have Amerindian ancestry because were part Latino. Something surprising though is that my dad has an ancestral allele in rs1426654 and rs16891982, and has very brown skin(Amerindian-like). I have an ancestral allele in rs16891982. It's surprising because he's 90% European, and he has an ancestral allele because of such a small amount of non-Euro ancestry.

I'm curious about how your Dad's skin looks like. Is he heterozygous or homozygous for the ancestral? I have seen about 8 different 23andme people(6 on v3, 2 on v4), in the range of 89% European to 98% European, with the minor admixture being Native in the range 0.8%-5.4%, SSA 0.3%-2.1%, and North African 0.5%-2.2%, yet only one person is ancestral for one of the pigmentation snps, and it is rs16891982, and she is heterozygous for it. However the person who is heterozygous in rs16891982 isn't darker skinned than the others, instead she has very dark hair, but white skin with freckles, because she is heterozygous in Rs12203592.

jeanL
12-24-2014, 09:03 PM
duplicate post-please delete

ArmandoR1b
12-24-2014, 10:35 PM
I know its not noise, I tested with 23andme and I got 3.6% Native American/East Asian out of which 3.4% is Native American. This was after I linked my account to my parents' account. Before it had me as 2.9%, namely because I have a good chunk on chromosome 9. The vast majority of my native comes from my Paternal Grandmother who is 5% Native American, my mom on the other hand is only 1.5% East Asian/Native American out of which 1.1% is Native American, and I only got 0.6% of my East/Asian and Native from her, 3.0% from my dad, who in turn 90% of it from his mom. So the 50% generation thing doesn't work, in fact going by my grandparents results I should have been 2.7% Native American, instead I turned out to be 3.6%. My grandmother has 7/16 Great-Great Grandparents born in the Canary Islands, the other ones show evidence of Canary Islander descent, and we think some of them might have been part Floridian, and that's the link I am trying to explore. AncestryDNA gives me 4% Native, and is nontrace, unlike my North African score which is trace region, and the range of the Native is 3%-6%, so I know is real, but it seem to be rather old, because I have a pretty extensive family tree and haven't been able to trace it yet. Here is my grandmother's 23andme results:

https://www.23andme.com/published/ancestry/composition/d9f4e0cdbb39d545/032eb6d9c74bd69f/

PS: My grandmother is derived in all European pigmentation SNPs including the one for eyes, she has green-blue eyes, and had blond hair when young.

Have you put all of those kits through Eurogenes and Dodecad? I had one person give me his and his parents 23andme results and they didn't have the ~50% compared to his parents. Once he put them through Dodecad globe13 (which is what I used at that time) he ended up being 50% of the total of the parents.

Krefter
12-24-2014, 11:00 PM
I'm curious about how your Dad's skin looks like. Is he heterozygous or homozygous for the ancestral? I have seen about 8 different 23andme people(6 on v3, 2 on v4), in the range of 89% European to 98% European, with the minor admixture being Native in the range 0.8%-5.4%, SSA 0.3%-2.1%, and North African 0.5%-2.2%, yet only one person is ancestral for one of the pigmentation snps, and it is rs16891982, and she is heterozygous for it. However the person who is heterozygous in rs16891982 isn't darker skinned than the others, instead she has very dark hair, but white skin with freckles, because she is heterozygous in Rs12203592.

23andme doesn't say whether a call is heterozygous or homozygous, as far as I know. He's 2% West African, but I know it's coming from the Amerindian side.

I remember many months ago I think I found a NW European-American at GEDmatch with AG in rs1426654 and I think also rs16891982, but he had light skin. So, who knows are consistent and accurate these SNPs really are.

AppalachianGumbo
12-28-2014, 08:40 PM
Thanks for the answers, I have wondered about the subject myself to be honest. I was interested in Amerindian cultures and their interaction with Europeans. However I became more interested when many White Americans claim Amerindian ancestry, but I was puzzled when they often claimed cherokee, I mean like I said in the previous post there is more tribes out there like the Chumash and Tongva for example and yet I don't see much White Americans claiming ancestry from them. It's true it seems people seem to have more likely to get SSA minor admix than Amerind, but there has to be an Amerind lineage in some people. Though I don't get why people would be ashamed of having trivial amounts of SSA admixture in the first place, though knowing the history I guess makes it so. A lot of Native Americans do find this kinda disrespectful and shows them not in a normal light but as noble savages which is offensive to them. Though all the answers here make sense. Thanks a lot for the info.

The reason why most European Americans or African Americans claim or may legitimately have ancestry from one of the very large Five Civilized Tribes (Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Seminole and Muskogee/Creek) is because these tribes faced the brunt of colonization in the 1700's from the Europeans in the now USA. Most eastern US settlers from the south knew or had knowledge of these tribes. Tribes encountered Europeans (of NW Euro ancestry) and African slaves early on.

Chumash and Tongva are western tribes on the pacific coast who would have encountered Spanish settlers and colonials. People descended from colonial American northwestern Europeans (which you are implying of claiming this ancestry?), their ancestors settled in large numbers on the east coast, they would not claim ancestry from pacific located tribes, especially people from the southeast US in the 18th or 19th centuries. Their ancestors had no contact with Pacific or even Plains tribes. So they would not claim Navajo, Apache, Lakota, Ute either.
The "Westward Expansion" over the Mississippi River was not in full force until during the mid 1800's so the crux of English/Irish/German/Scottish Whites would not have been in that direction, unless they were fur traders, trappers and frontiersmen. Before the westward expansion, all areas beyond were considered the "frontier" and deemed Indian Country. You moved or traveled there at your own risk. People did not start migrating west over the Mississippi River until much later and at this point, most Indians were placed on reservations to isolate them and make land for the Europeans, even then the hostility was so bad between Indians and Whites.

After saying all that....Since the Cherokee are being mentioned, they were also dwindled down to "practically no lands" after forcefully ceding lands on various occasions. The map below shows the area the Cherokee had, most of which was hunting grounds. In black is what the tribe was reduced to prior to the removal between 1838-1839. The Keetoowah band moved out in 1790 to Arkansas then moved to OK.
http://www.cherokeeremoval.org/Image9.jpg


Now, the Cherokee tribe is not a unanimous tribe. Anyone of Cherokee ancestry, should be able to tell you their Cherokee tribe! Keetoowah, Cherokee Nation both out in OK today, via relocation and the Eastern Band Cherokee who remain in western North Carolina today. All three Cherokee tribes are federally recognized. Cherokee Nation is a very large tribe and much larger than the Carolina Cherokee and Keetoowah were. People who claim to have ancestry from this tribe (Cherokee), who are located no where near the heart of the Cherokee during the time frames(refer to the map) are suspect, especially if their ancestors, not one was documented on any roll; pre, during and post removal. Being near the tribe does not = Cherokee. There are people with authentic Cherokee and Indigenous ancestry of people who did travel outside the tribe but are exceptions rather than the rule of thousands of people who claim this ancestry, most of which is a growing fad of New Age Indian style religion.

MattL
01-07-2015, 11:07 AM
One thing to be sure to do is to not just look at percentage numbers but run the chromsome painter (specifically against a dataset that breaks down SSA and another African DNA, like Eurogenes K13 or K15V2, if you want to identify that component). Then look for the segments that match the ethnicity and see segment size. If all you see is a bunch of small blips then you really can't discern it from noise, though if you see large enough segment(s) it may be legitimate. Here's a useful tool to convert the build position you'll see on chromosome painting to cM.

I typically apply the cM rules for discerning legitimate cousin matches (though how it applies to ethnicity is not clear but seems like a good starting point), basically that anything below 7cM is unidentifiable from noise and 10 cM or greater means its much more likely to be legitimate (10cM for a cousin match would be 99% chance of being a relative for reference).

When I was tested I was expecting some Native American, like every other American I had heard I had Native ancestors. Mine didn't show any NA but surprisingly it came up with a very small amount of West African (less than 1%) on Ancestry DNA (I was on there before 2.0 and after 2.0 it came up). Since then I've tested my mother, father, grandmother (mother's mother), and aunt. I've brought them all over to gedmatch, multiple over to FTDNA. They all exist on Ancestry DNA except my aunt who is only on 23andme and my mom is double tested on both Ancestry DNA and 23andme (and I've ported it over to FTDNA), so been interesting to see the difference.

I have a segment on my 18th chromosome that's about 8cM or so that comes up Sub Saharan in all data sets (a couple other smaller ones but too small to be sure). My mother has that same segment but it's 2-3x bigger at 20-30cM. She comes up <1% west african on Ancestry DNA as well (Ghana with smaller matches to Mali and Senegal) and she comes up 0.4% SSA on 23andme under all the confidence levels (including conservative which 23andme states is 100% confidence level).

I've found three other cousin matches who share that exact same segment, unfortunately haven't narrowed down the shared ancestor though since it goes back to 1700-1800 or so with that small of DNA though I've probably narrow it down (based on shared matches on different DNA segments among our network of shared matches) to on of my branches that came through Georgia in the early days and were right on the pioneering edge as the land was taken and changed from Cherokee lands (for reference in the post above me they were in Gilmer County Georgia, right in the black area of northern Georgia on that image, in fact I have an 1832 Georgia cherokee land lottery record for him winning a plot there).

In fact up that branch I found a few interesting things and really have learned a lot about certain pioneered lands and how the lines of who people would intermarry with were definitely more blurred there.

1) Up one branching family of that line I have a 4th great grand uncle that was born in this Georgia area and married a native american woman. The reason I know is he is later listed in a census living in Indian Territory in Georgia and his wife and children are listed as Native American. He's still listed as White though so I know it's unlikely he was Native American himself (since everyone else in his household was listed as such) so I likely don't have NA up that specific branch.

2) Up another branch possibly leads to an ancestor that lived in North Carolina and testified on behalf of a free person of color's claim for a pension, he supported that he served with him in the American Revolution and that many other free black people and mulattos in their community fought in the Revolution.

This family had many cases of having semi-free mulatto bastard children bound to them (a mulatto bastard could be bound in a sort of indentured servant sort of way until they were in their 20s-30s, but they were required to care for them and train or teach them something). In some cases this was little more than slavery, in other cases it was close to their roots of English apprenticeships and the such and the person would actually acquire a trade of some sorts. That same person who stuck up for a free black person who applied for a pension also had at least 11 mulattos bound to him all to be shoemakers (I'm guessing considerably more useful and a better situation than being a field laborer).

3) Another potential connection of a "Cooper" family of mine that I dead end at with a woman ancestor born about 1817. Around that time in Georgia is a Cooper man that lived in those some areas of Georgia at those times when they were taking cherokee lands and folding it into Georgia. I found traces that he married as his second wife a native american woman and had multiple children (my ancestor *might* relate to him either as a daughter, niece, or cousin but haven't confirmed) and he opened a school that apparently mostly taught Native American children.


What all those cases taught me is that regions that were the frontiers of colonial and early America had very blurred lines of racial integration at times. European, African, and Native Americans intermixed in different ways at different times.


The other thing I've learned is that though I and my mother don't show up Native American on Ancestry DNA or FTDNA... my aunt came up 0.2% at 75% confidence on 23andme. When compared to my grandmothers DNA it looks like that same segment might be twice as large in my grandmother and she has another segment that looks like it *could* be NA that's bigger as well (I haven't tested her on 23andme but I suspect they are the best at finding trace Native American DNA). Not conclusive but it has revived the idea that I might have very distant NA ancestry, though much farther back than any stories I've been told.

Kurd
01-07-2015, 12:08 PM
One thing to be sure to do is to not just look at percentage numbers but run the chromsome painter (specifically against a dataset that breaks down SSA and another African DNA, like Eurogenes K13 or K15V2, if you want to identify that component). Then look for the segments that match the ethnicity and see segment size. If all you see is a bunch of small blips then you really can't discern it from noise, though if you see large enough segment(s) it may be legitimate. Here's a useful tool to convert the build position you'll see on chromosome painting to cM.

I typically apply the cM rules for discerning legitimate cousin matches (though how it applies to ethnicity is not clear but seems like a good starting point), basically that anything below 7cM is unidentifiable from noise and 10 cM or greater means its much more likely to be legitimate (10cM for a cousin match would be 99% chance of being a relative for reference).

When I was tested I was expecting some Native American, like every other American I had heard I had Native ancestors. Mine didn't show any NA but surprisingly it came up with a very small amount of West African (less than 1%) on Ancestry DNA (I was on there before 2.0 and after 2.0 it came up). Since then I've tested my mother, father, grandmother (mother's mother), and aunt. I've brought them all over to gedmatch, multiple over to FTDNA. They all exist on Ancestry DNA except my aunt who is only on 23andme and my mom is double tested on both Ancestry DNA and 23andme (and I've ported it over to FTDNA), so been interesting to see the difference.

I have a segment on my 18th chromosome that's about 8cM or so that comes up Sub Saharan in all data sets (a couple other smaller ones but too small to be sure). My mother has that same segment but it's 2-3x bigger at 20-30cM. She comes up <1% west african on Ancestry DNA as well (Ghana with smaller matches to Mali and Senegal) and she comes up 0.4% SSA on 23andme under all the confidence levels (including conservative which 23andme states is 100% confidence level).

I've found three other cousin matches who share that exact same segment, unfortunately haven't narrowed down the shared ancestor though since it goes back to 1700-1800 or so with that small of DNA though I've probably narrow it down (based on shared matches on different DNA segments among our network of shared matches) to on of my branches that came through Georgia in the early days and were right on the pioneering edge as the land was taken and changed from Cherokee lands (for reference in the post above me they were in Gilmer County Georgia, right in the black area of northern Georgia on that image, in fact I have an 1832 Georgia cherokee land lottery record for him winning a plot there).

In fact up that branch I found a few interesting things and really have learned a lot about certain pioneered lands and how the lines of who people would intermarry with were definitely more blurred there.

1) Up one branching family of that line I have a 4th great grand uncle that was born in this Georgia area and married a native american woman. The reason I know is he is later listed in a census living in Indian Territory in Georgia and his wife and children are listed as Native American. He's still listed as White though so I know it's unlikely he was Native American himself (since everyone else in his household was listed as such) so I likely don't have NA up that specific branch.

2) Up another branch possibly leads to an ancestor that lived in North Carolina and testified on behalf of a free person of color's claim for a pension, he supported that he served with him in the American Revolution and that many other free black people and mulattos in their community fought in the Revolution.

This family had many cases of having semi-free mulatto bastard children bound to them (a mulatto bastard could be bound in a sort of indentured servant sort of way until they were in their 20s-30s, but they were required to care for them and train or teach them something). In some cases this was little more than slavery, in other cases it was close to their roots of English apprenticeships and the such and the person would actually acquire a trade of some sorts. That same person who stuck up for a free black person who applied for a pension also had at least 11 mulattos bound to him all to be shoemakers (I'm guessing considerably more useful and a better situation than being a field laborer).

3) Another potential connection of a "Cooper" family of mine that I dead end at with a woman ancestor born about 1817. Around that time in Georgia is a Cooper man that lived in those some areas of Georgia at those times when they were taking cherokee lands and folding it into Georgia. I found traces that he married as his second wife a native american woman and had multiple children (my ancestor *might* relate to him either as a daughter, niece, or cousin but haven't confirmed) and he opened a school that apparently mostly taught Native American children.


What all those cases taught me is that regions that were the frontiers of colonial and early America had very blurred lines of racial integration at times. European, African, and Native Americans intermixed in different ways at different times.


The other thing I've learned is that though I and my mother don't show up Native American on Ancestry DNA or FTDNA... my aunt came up 0.2% at 75% confidence on 23andme. When compared to my grandmothers DNA it looks like that same segment might be twice as large in my grandmother and she has another segment that looks like it *could* be NA that's bigger as well (I haven't tested her on 23andme but I suspect they are the best at finding trace Native American DNA). Not conclusive but it has revived the idea that I might have very distant NA ancestry, though much farther back than any stories I've been told.

Thanks for sharing. I have noticed that there is a considerable difference in south asian and west asian gedmatch component admixture results, depending on whether one uses AncestryDNA or 23andme raw DNA data in gedmatch.

I am aware that this is because AncestryDNA samples different SNPs than 23andme on your genome., and some calculators may not have as good of an overlap between reference population SNPs and AncestryDNA SNPs vs. 23andme.

I was wondering whether you have had the same experience, where the gedmatch admixture component results differ considerably, depending on whether you use your AncestryDNA raw data, or 23andme raw data on gedmatch.

Gray Fox
01-07-2015, 12:13 PM
Here is my chromosome painter results for K13. Hopefully someone wiser than myself can interpret this with better clarity.

3334

TŠltos
01-07-2015, 02:54 PM
Here is my chromosome painter results for K13. Hopefully someone wiser than myself can interpret this with better clarity.

3334

I always find them hard to look at (on Gedmatch), use the admixture proportions by chromosomes. Look at what the Amerindian % reads on your chromosome 18.

Gray Fox
01-07-2015, 03:54 PM
I always find them hard to look at (on Gedmatch), use the admixture proportions by chromosomes. Look at what the Amerindian % reads on your chromosome 18.

Okay. What is the importance of chromosome 18 with regards to Amerindian ancestry? My percentage for that group is null.

TŠltos
01-07-2015, 07:35 PM
Okay. What is the importance of chromosome 18 with regards to Amerindian ancestry? My percentage for that group is null.

Because to me in the chromosome painting you posted, it looked like there was a splash of the Amerindian blue painted on that one. They are hard to tell the colors sometimes just by looking. So I figured the best way to see how much you scored on that, was to look at the chromosomes through the admixture percentages given on each chromosome. It is one of the options you can choose before running the test.

Gray Fox
01-07-2015, 07:43 PM
Because to me in the chromosome painting you posted, it looked like there was a splash of the Amerindian blue painted on that one. They are hard to tell the colors sometimes just by looking. So I figured the best way to see how much you scored on that, was to look at the chromosomes through the admixture percentages given on each chromosome. It is one of the options you can choose before running the test.

I wasn't very clear in my last message. I meant that I had zero percent for Amerindian on chromosome 18.

MattL
01-07-2015, 08:20 PM
Here is my chromosome painter results for K13. Hopefully someone wiser than myself can interpret this with better clarity.

3334

Chromosome painting reduced size is somewhat useful but I find not as useful as the non reduced size... for example here's my mother's SSA segment in both in K15 V2:

3337

Here's the full painting mode on that segment on Chromosome 18... Here you can take the build position numbers and convert it to cM here http://compgen4.rutgers.edu/mapinterpolator
3338

MattL
01-07-2015, 08:31 PM
Thanks for sharing. I have noticed that there is a considerable difference in south asian and west asian gedmatch component admixture results, depending on whether one uses AncestryDNA or 23andme raw DNA data in gedmatch.

I am aware that this is because AncestryDNA samples different SNPs than 23andme on your genome., and some calculators may not have as good of an overlap between reference population SNPs and AncestryDNA SNPs vs. 23andme.

I was wondering whether you have had the same experience, where the gedmatch admixture component results differ considerably, depending on whether you use your AncestryDNA raw data, or 23andme raw data on gedmatch.

Hmm a good point, I haven't imported my moms 23andme results but I need to do that. I do notice that when I compare my aunts DNA on gedmatch from 23andme to my grandmothers on gedmatch from AncestryDNA I think the NA segment is the same but it comes up a slightly different mix, might be due to the testing companies now that I think of it, here is a pic. The top is my grandmother (AncestryDNA) the second is my aunt (23andme) and the third is shared/different:

3339

The Legend
3340

I'm not completely sure if all the data on those segments aren't the result of being mixed with my grandfather's DNA in my aunt but it looks like 23andme's results on gedmatch is showing an area or two as Oceanian while being Amerindian on my grandmother, but again not sure. I'll have to import my mom's 23andme results to gedmatch.

Kurd
01-07-2015, 09:35 PM
Hmm a good point, I haven't imported my moms 23andme results but I need to do that. I do notice that when I compare my aunts DNA on gedmatch from 23andme to my grandmothers on gedmatch from AncestryDNA I think the NA segment is the same but it comes up a slightly different mix, might be due to the testing companies now that I think of it, here is a pic. The top is my grandmother (AncestryDNA) the second is my aunt (23andme) and the third is shared/different:

3339

The Legend
3340

I'm not completely sure if all the data on those segments aren't the result of being mixed with my grandfather's DNA in my aunt but it looks like 23andme's results on gedmatch is showing an area or two as Oceanian while being Amerindian on my grandmother, but again not sure. I'll have to import my mom's 23andme results to gedmatch.

The only way to find out would be to import your mom's 23andme data to gedmatch, and then run it through the various calculators comparing the results with the results you got from running her AncestryDNA data through the calculators.

I would be interested in finding out which calculators give you the most divergent component results, and whether you get a difference of 2 to 4% between running AncestryDNA raw data vs. 23andme.

MattL
01-07-2015, 11:06 PM
The only way to find out would be to import your mom's 23andme data to gedmatch, and then run it through the various calculators comparing the results with the results you got from running her AncestryDNA data through the calculators.

I would be interested in finding out which calculators give you the most divergent component results, and whether you get a difference of 2 to 4% between running AncestryDNA raw data vs. 23andme.

Here's a few comparisons, though keep in mind my mother didn't come up with any significant Native American DNA/segments on AncestryDNA or 23andme (my aunt had one segment on 23andme) though she does come up with a couple Sub Saharan African segments at high confidence though an overall lower percentage.

Eurogenes
K13
23andme
North_Atlantic 48.31%
Baltic 23.71%
West_Med 13.54%
West_Asian 5.99%
East_Med 3.30%
Red_Sea 2.35%
South_Asian 0.25%
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.07%
Amerindian 0.42%
Oceanian 1.05%
Northeast_African 1.01%
Sub-Saharan -

AncestryDNA
North_Atlantic 48.14%
Baltic 23.82%
West_Med 13.63%
West_Asian 6.24%
East_Med 3.10%
Red_Sea 2.31%
South_Asian 0.34%
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.40%
Oceanian 0.90%
Northeast_African 1.12%
Sub-Saharan -


K15 V2
23andme
North_Sea 35.88%
Atlantic 26.84%
Baltic 10.56%
Eastern_Euro 8.79%
West_Med 9.72%
West_Asian 4.14%
East_Med -
Red_Sea 2.25%
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.08%
Oceanian 0.80%
Northeast_African 0.92%
Sub-Saharan -


AncestryDNA
North_Sea 35.83%
Atlantic 26.51%
Baltic 10.75%
Eastern_Euro 9.12%
West_Med 9.63%
West_Asian 4.20%
East_Med -
Red_Sea 2.23%
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.64%
Northeast_African 1.08%
Sub-Saharan -


Dodecad World 9
23andme
Amerindian 0.44%
East_Asian -
African 0.40%
Atlantic_Baltic 72.44%
Australasian 0.50%
Siberian 0.76%
Caucasus_Gedrosia 11.71%
Southern 13.76%
South_Asian -

AncestryDNA
Amerindian 0.53%
East_Asian -
African 0.72%
Atlantic_Baltic 72.64%
Australasian 0.53%
Siberian 0.62%
Caucasus_Gedrosia 11.28%
Southern 13.67%
South_Asian -


Here's a chromosome painting comparison on the biggest SSA segment she has... gray is SSA (Sub Saharan African) and Pinkish is Northeast African

23andme
3341

AncestryDNA
3342

TŠltos
01-07-2015, 11:17 PM
I wasn't very clear in my last message. I meant that I had zero percent for Amerindian on chromosome 18.

Yes I looked at it myself now. I saw your kit number on your painting so I double checked. Hope you don't mind. I wonder what that color is supposed to be then on the miniature painting? That's why I don't like looking at them that way, for me they are harder to see.

Gray Fox
01-07-2015, 11:23 PM
I'm still thinking of sending my data to Dr. MacDonald. My NA and African percentages/segments are too small for me to make anything of them. It still seems far-fetched to me to make anything out of something less than one percent. Something I do find interesting about my runs are my South Asian scores. These are consistently a tad higher than most people of West Euro descent. I still feel a potential Romani connection may be possible through my south German ancestors.

Just a reminder.. Here is my K13 run. Note the 2.36% south Asia.

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 47.61
2 Baltic 22.28
3 West_Med 16.13
4 West_Asian 7.7
5 South_Asian 2.36
6 Red_Sea 1.33
7 East_Med 1.03
8 Oceanian 0.8
9 Northeast_African 0.77

Gray Fox
01-07-2015, 11:27 PM
Yes I looked at it myself now. I saw your kit number on your painting so I double checked. Hope you don't mind. I wonder what that color is supposed to be then on the miniature painting? That's why I don't like looking at them that way, for me they are harder to see.

No, by all means, run the numbers yourself if it will give you a better idea! I'm not a privacy nut, so have at it :)

randwulf
01-07-2015, 11:27 PM
My known mix from genealogy paperwork - 70% South German, 3% English, 2% Unknown Colonial New England, 25% Colonial Virginia mix (known English, Scottish, French, Irish, German and some unknown "blocks" in the research). I have no family rumors about native ancestry. However, just about all calculators come up with some type of East Asian/Amerindian mix and it is certainly possible from the Colonial background "unknowns". Here are my Eurogenes K13 results:

North Atlantic 45.22
Baltic 19.93
West_Med 19.46
West_Asian 1.03
East_Med 10.22
Red_Sea 1.23
South_Asian 0.64
East_Asian 0.80
Siberian 0.77
Amerindian 0.49
Northeast_African 0.20

My father is entirely South German with relatively recent immigration (1870s-1890s) to urban Pittsburgh for all the ancestors, so I can probably sort some of this out by having my parents both tested, I think, and see if the Asian/Amerindian mix is coming from just my mother's colonial (likely) background. it is possible I get some from both I guess based on the history of Germany and invasions from the east. From looking at the chromosome painting, it seems bigger than just noise as there are significant splashes of Asian/Amerindian DNA in them. My chromosome 18 and 19 show the most consistent results across the tests with 4-7%. Also, I have some significant matches in those chromosomes with others, though I haven't analyzed it too deeply, yet. I am just getting started with all this.

Kurd
01-08-2015, 12:12 AM
Here's a few comparisons, though keep in mind my mother didn't come up with any significant Native American DNA/segments on AncestryDNA or 23andme (my aunt had one segment on 23andme) though she does come up with a couple Sub Saharan African segments at high confidence though an overall lower percentage.

Eurogenes
K13
23andme
North_Atlantic 48.31%
Baltic 23.71%
West_Med 13.54%
West_Asian 5.99%
East_Med 3.30%
Red_Sea 2.35%
South_Asian 0.25%
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.07%
Amerindian 0.42%
Oceanian 1.05%
Northeast_African 1.01%
Sub-Saharan -

AncestryDNA
North_Atlantic 48.14%
Baltic 23.82%
West_Med 13.63%
West_Asian 6.24%
East_Med 3.10%
Red_Sea 2.31%
South_Asian 0.34%
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.40%
Oceanian 0.90%
Northeast_African 1.12%
Sub-Saharan -


K15 V2
23andme
North_Sea 35.88%
Atlantic 26.84%
Baltic 10.56%
Eastern_Euro 8.79%
West_Med 9.72%
West_Asian 4.14%
East_Med -
Red_Sea 2.25%
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.08%
Oceanian 0.80%
Northeast_African 0.92%
Sub-Saharan -


AncestryDNA
North_Sea 35.83%
Atlantic 26.51%
Baltic 10.75%
Eastern_Euro 9.12%
West_Med 9.63%
West_Asian 4.20%
East_Med -
Red_Sea 2.23%
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.64%
Northeast_African 1.08%
Sub-Saharan -


Dodecad World 9
23andme
Amerindian 0.44%
East_Asian -
African 0.40%
Atlantic_Baltic 72.44%
Australasian 0.50%
Siberian 0.76%
Caucasus_Gedrosia 11.71%
Southern 13.76%
South_Asian -

AncestryDNA
Amerindian 0.53%
East_Asian -
African 0.72%
Atlantic_Baltic 72.64%
Australasian 0.53%
Siberian 0.62%
Caucasus_Gedrosia 11.28%
Southern 13.67%
South_Asian -


Here's a chromosome painting comparison on the biggest SSA segment she has... gray is SSA (Sub Saharan African) and Pinkish is Northeast African

23andme
3341

AncestryDNA
3342

Thanks!

Overall, not too bad. The largest divergence for components > 2% was about 4%. Let me know if you find larger diversions as you run the other calculators.

SwampThing27
01-08-2015, 12:15 AM
I'm still thinking of sending my data to Dr. MacDonald. My NA and African percentages/segments are too small for me to make anything of them. It still seems far-fetched to me to make anything out of something less than one percent. Something I do find interesting about my runs are my South Asian scores. These are consistently a tad higher than most people of West Euro descent. I still feel a potential Romani connection may be possible through my south German ancestors.

Just a reminder.. Here is my K13 run. Note the 2.36% south Asia.

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 47.61
2 Baltic 22.28
3 West_Med 16.13
4 West_Asian 7.7
5 South_Asian 2.36
6 Red_Sea 1.33
7 East_Med 1.03
8 Oceanian 0.8
9 Northeast_African 0.77

A distant cousin on 23andme was telling me that they score similar South Asian amounts on gedmatch to myself (which is also similar to yours) and that they have been in contact with someone who does Jewish and Romani genealogy as a hobby and supposedly they said that South Asian numbers in that range on gedmatch are a telltale sign of Romani ancestry. Do you score any South Asian on 23andme? I don't show any on 23andme, and here is my K13:

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 47.34
2 Baltic 21.2
3 West_Med 14.39
4 West_Asian 5.59
5 East_Med 4.5
6 South_Asian 3.25
7 Sub-Saharan 1.27
8 Red_Sea 0.96
9 Amerindian 0.62
10 Oceanian 0.46
11 Siberian 0.44

I just don't get why they wouldn't show up at all on 23andme. Not even .1%

Alpine Hominin
01-08-2015, 04:14 AM
I had no stories of Native Ancestry, and my DNA tests have been in line with that. My family has colonial roots.

Gray Fox
01-08-2015, 10:42 AM
A distant cousin on 23andme was telling me that they score similar South Asian amounts on gedmatch to myself (which is also similar to yours) and that they have been in contact with someone who does Jewish and Romani genealogy as a hobby and supposedly they said that South Asian numbers in that range on gedmatch are a telltale sign of Romani ancestry. Do you score any South Asian on 23andme? I don't show any on 23andme, and here is my K13:

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 47.34
2 Baltic 21.2
3 West_Med 14.39
4 West_Asian 5.59
5 East_Med 4.5
6 South_Asian 3.25
7 Sub-Saharan 1.27
8 Red_Sea 0.96
9 Amerindian 0.62
10 Oceanian 0.46
11 Siberian 0.44

I just don't get why they wouldn't show up at all on 23andme. Not even .1%

I'm not on 23andme. Though I do score four percent eastern Middle east on Ftdna's family finder..

Gray Fox
01-08-2015, 11:26 AM
I had no stories of Native Ancestry, and my DNA tests have been in line with that. My family has colonial roots.

In all honesty, I'm scratching my head over this one. From a few of the admix runs you have posted, you too seem to fall into this percentage group for south Asian as well. Odd that it seems to be people who have colonial roots that are showing this consistency. Unless I'm wildly off base here, it doesn't appear that this could represent Amerindian in any way. Who knows? I certainly don't!

Gray Fox
01-08-2015, 12:01 PM
Of course the possibility that we may be making too big a deal out of these scores is also there. It could just be that our results are being pulled in that direction, not that we are necessarily showing up for these ethnicities. I still think what Dr. MacDonald has said holds true, that people of Colonial American roots don't have a lot to compare to back in our groups countries of origin. In other words, the groups we descend from are now primarily here in the united states. So for us to compare to a modern Euro population our scores aren't going to align in a way that we would hope for. I mentioned this early on whenever I received my family finder and the results for middle east were throwing me for a loop. Colonial Americans are going to have work more diligently to decipher themselves.

ArmandoR1b
01-08-2015, 01:26 PM
Anything under about 1.8% Native American/Amerindian should be considered to most likely be noise and extremely unlikely to be due to a Native American ancestor.

MattL
01-08-2015, 08:03 PM
Not to sound like a broken record, but again I'll suggest that overall percentage is less important than actual segments. For example when comparing potential cousin matches overall percentage of shared DNA can give you a potential idea, but to determine if it's legitimate or not you will always go to the segment size, anything too small you dismiss as potential noise even if it might not be since we can't tell the difference.

ArmandoR1b
01-09-2015, 03:03 AM
Not to sound like a broken record, but again I'll suggest that overall percentage is less important than actual segments. For example when comparing potential cousin matches overall percentage of shared DNA can give you a potential idea, but to determine if it's legitimate or not you will always go to the segment size, anything too small you dismiss as potential noise even if it might not be since we can't tell the difference.

The chance of those small segments due to an actual Native American ancestor is so small it shouldn't even be considered a possibility unless you have parents and grandparents with whose segments get more numerous and larger with each generation until being at least 4 cM.

MattL
01-09-2015, 03:31 AM
The chance of those small segments due to an actual Native American ancestor is so small it shouldn't even be considered a possibility unless you have parents and grandparents with whose segments get more numerous and larger with each generation until being at least 4 cM.

Agreed, I never suggested small segments below 4 cM being evidence... in fact I posted a couple very detailed posts including pictures of chromosome painting pointing out I would apply the same rule at minimum for shared relatives and 7-10 cM. That's been my point for a few posts now :)

randwulf
01-09-2015, 10:59 PM
So, if I could be humored on this for learning purposes - I am attaching an ANE K7 painting of my chromosomes to use as an example because that one sums things up nicely and easy to view. Just about every calculator gives me about 2-3% East Asian if it is low resolution and about the same with higher resolution calculators split into pieces named things like "Amerindian", "Siberian", "Arctic", etc. The spots on my chromsomes where there are stacks of these Asian things are easy to spot in this diagram because there are only two colors - red and yellow together. The best example is the top of Chromosome 22. I also get a smattering of African that is even lower percentage and that is easy to spot because they are light green and olive green on the picture and most of it is collected in two spots on the picture. The best example is near the bottom of Chromosome 6 on the picture. These same spots paint very similarly no matter what calculator I pick.

The odd thing is that I have a couple of 25+ cm matches on the Chromosome 6 blob that breaks up the WHG starting from the bottom at the swatch of "ASE" through some ENF, African, and ANE/East Eurasian combo, and then some more ENF - basically that entire block with very little WHG in it. I also have a 16 cm match with the that entire block at the top of Chromosome 22 with the ANE/East Eurasian block followed/mixed with ENF. When I look up these kinds of matches which seem to happen a lot through these Asian looking segments, as long as surnames have been loaded, there almost always is a big list of English names sourced to Virginia/Georgia/Tennessee, etc. Is this really noise? I know I have nothing recent - but we Americans with Colonial roots just have to know something about what happened in those two hundred years that we can't document! Seriously - is there an alternate explanation to untraceable Native and African ancestry for these kinds of blocks of DNA or do these things pop up even in Western Europeans with long ties to home villages? Thanks for any comments.

3353

SwampThing27
01-09-2015, 11:17 PM
So, if I could be humored on this for learning purposes - I am attaching an ANE K7 painting of my chromosomes to use as an example because that one sums things up nicely and easy to view. Just about every calculator gives me about 2-3% East Asian if it is low resolution and about the same with higher resolution calculators split into pieces named things like "Amerindian", "Siberian", "Arctic", etc. The spots on my chromsomes where there are stacks of these Asian things are easy to spot in this diagram because there are only two colors - red and yellow together. The best example is the top of Chromosome 22. I also get a smattering of African that is even lower percentage and that is easy to spot because they are light green and olive green on the picture and most of it is collected in two spots on the picture. The best example is near the bottom of Chromosome 6 on the picture. These same spots paint very similarly no matter what calculator I pick.

The odd thing is that I have a couple of 25+ cm matches on the Chromosome 6 blob that breaks up the WHG starting from the bottom at the swatch of "ASE" through some ENF, African, and ANE/East Eurasian combo, and then some more ENF - basically that entire block with very little WHG in it. I also have a 16 cm match with the that entire block at the top of Chromosome 22 with the ANE/East Eurasian block followed/mixed with ENF. When I look up these kinds of matches which seem to happen a lot through these Asian looking segments, as long as surnames have been loaded, there almost always is a big list of English names sourced to Virginia/Georgia/Tennessee, etc. Is this really noise? I know I have nothing recent - but we Americans with Colonial roots just have to know something about what happened in those two hundred years that we can't document! Seriously - is there an alternate explanation to untraceable Native and African ancestry for these kinds of blocks of DNA or do these things pop up even in Western Europeans with long ties to home villages? Thanks for any comments.

3353

If you run the K7 on gedmatch with the proportions by chromosome function what does it look like? Do you have East African on 6 that is a lot bigger than any of the others?

randwulf
01-09-2015, 11:41 PM
The West African is higher on Chromome 6 than most others (2%) and the East African is one of the highest (1.6%), but it (the West and East African) is almost all clumped together and very visible in the painting in that one ~25 cM spot. The very highest East African is on Chromosome 20 (3.8%), but it is all spread out and "noisy" looking. The East African is also high on Chromosome 13 at 3.5% and it mostly is grouped in one segment, sort of the way it is on Chromsome 6, except there isn't much West African on Chromosome 13.

Gray Fox
01-09-2015, 11:44 PM
I'll post my run later tonight. Looks a lot like Randwulf's run, with perhaps a slight bit more East African popping up.

dp
01-10-2015, 06:41 PM
I'm not on 23andme. Though I do score four percent eastern Middle east on Ftdna's family finder..
the old version had me at 9%. When I go through the admix routines, and map the top 3 of the Oracle4's for my local cluster southern Spain comes up so I think that is the explanation --not that I think that I'm 9% Spanish, that's almost like having a Latina great-grandmother LOL.
Ancestry says that coastal W. Europe score higher NA than inland. They attribute it to NA slaves being taken to Europe. I wonder if it could be a vestige from 20,000 ybp of Europeans coming over here. Subsequently these Europeans mixed with Mongolian types, and more recently other Europeans and Africans so only a 2% vestige survives when you compare present day NA to Europeans. IOW they need Eastern US archaic NA dna.
dp :-)

Gray Fox
01-10-2015, 07:20 PM
Interesting. I've never heard of that potential explanation for NA like DNA appearing in modern West Euro's. Perhaps it is shared ancient Eurasian DNA that is showing up? Germans (Southern and Eastern) and other groups in the more eastern sections of west Euro seem to show a small percentage of Eurasian/Asiatic DNA as well. Though given its geographical location that is not much of a surprise. I recall an individual given as an example of this being half German and half Hungarian. He scored just as I did, with 96% Euro and 4% Middle East.

As I've said a few times already, I don't find the possibility of NA or African admixture to be unlikely amongst Colonial Americans. I just think its a bit hasty to automatically attribute it to someone just because they are of colonial extraction. If someone has German roots, especially recent, why then could the Eurasian-like DNA not be attributed to that as a possibility? I just don't agree with the "Has to be there at some point" mentality that some people have towards being thoroughly blended with all of America's known, historical ethnic groups.

Gray Fox
01-10-2015, 07:59 PM
So, if I could be humored on this for learning purposes - I am attaching an ANE K7 painting of my chromosomes to use as an example because that one sums things up nicely and easy to view. Just about every calculator gives me about 2-3% East Asian if it is low resolution and about the same with higher resolution calculators split into pieces named things like "Amerindian", "Siberian", "Arctic", etc. The spots on my chromsomes where there are stacks of these Asian things are easy to spot in this diagram because there are only two colors - red and yellow together. The best example is the top of Chromosome 22. I also get a smattering of African that is even lower percentage and that is easy to spot because they are light green and olive green on the picture and most of it is collected in two spots on the picture. The best example is near the bottom of Chromosome 6 on the picture. These same spots paint very similarly no matter what calculator I pick.

The odd thing is that I have a couple of 25+ cm matches on the Chromosome 6 blob that breaks up the WHG starting from the bottom at the swatch of "ASE" through some ENF, African, and ANE/East Eurasian combo, and then some more ENF - basically that entire block with very little WHG in it. I also have a 16 cm match with the that entire block at the top of Chromosome 22 with the ANE/East Eurasian block followed/mixed with ENF. When I look up these kinds of matches which seem to happen a lot through these Asian looking segments, as long as surnames have been loaded, there almost always is a big list of English names sourced to Virginia/Georgia/Tennessee, etc. Is this really noise? I know I have nothing recent - but we Americans with Colonial roots just have to know something about what happened in those two hundred years that we can't document! Seriously - is there an alternate explanation to untraceable Native and African ancestry for these kinds of blocks of DNA or do these things pop up even in Western Europeans with long ties to home villages? Thanks for any comments.

3353

Here is my run for comparison. Note that on the sections that we do show for East African, that they are generally the same area of the chromosome..

3360

randwulf
01-11-2015, 04:52 AM
Here is my run for comparison. Note that on the sections that we do show for East African, that they are generally the same area of the chromosome..

3360

That is very interesting. I see you have an additional section that I don't that has that appearance, but both have an African segment in Chromosomes 6 and 13.

Gray Fox
01-11-2015, 07:42 PM
That is very interesting. I see you have an additional section that I don't that has that appearance, but both have an African segment in Chromosomes 6 and 13.

It is odd that it appears for both of us on the same set of chromosomes. If I look at the count for each chromosome for ANE K7 I show up at a whopping 20% for West African and 9.5% for East African, for a grand total of 29.5! There is no way that is correct. I would have to have one grandparent that was African-American for that percentage to be true. Dividing that total by 22 gives me a percentage of 1.34. I performed the same function for K13 and ended up with 1.24 percent. I end up with 1.10 percent for the K15 run and that is combining the North east African and Sub-Saharan scores.

I also did this for Native American. For the K13 run I scored 2.08.. That's after lumping East Asian, Siberian, Amerindian and Oceanian together. Lower resolution tests seem to give the most inconsistencies, as one would expect. So we should really focus on the K15 run because, unless I'm mistaken, it offers the highest resolution for the K tests. My Amerindian combined total and actual percentage by chromosome for K15 is 0.7. You can see with higher resolution that the possibility for noise is less, whereas the K13 run seems a bit more noisy with an inflated score of 2.08. Generally the K13 run seems to be closer to one percent off.

For control I added up the south Asian percentages for K13 and K15. Here again we see where the inconsistency shows. I typically score right around 2.25 percent for this group in the lower resolution runs. Going by chromosome count for K13 I score 1.66, reflecting the runs being around one percent off. From my own math it seems the K15 calculators are generally around .50 percent off.. Giving me more realistic percentages of .48 (Where I actually score .66) for the Northeast African group. I think the original 1.10 percent combined total for African may be inflated due to the noisy sub-Saharan percentage, which isn't even detected by the standard K15 run. I score around .25 for the Native American percentage and 1.45 for South Asian counting by the chromosome and taking the .50 margin of error into consideration. My actual score for South Asian is 1.90 on the K15 which seems to be the most reliable and realistic. Though I do believe the chromosome counting method is more effective if we factor in the noise percentage.

Regarding whether the margin of error should be for the addition or subtraction of the percentage.. I'd say if on average the percentage is low and less than one percent, that we could count this in the reduction. If its consistently above one percent then I would say a bit more leniency could be tolerated, my south Asian being a good example.

Of course I didn't design these runs, obviously, so I could be way off base here. Just my observations.

MattL
01-12-2015, 07:15 AM
I would be careful using ANE K7 for anything but comparisons to ancient genetics... I'd use the K13 or K15 for more modern comparisons.

geebee
01-12-2015, 08:24 AM
In my father's family, there has long been a "legend" of Native American ancestry that I think I've pretty well put to rest. Different versions of the legend exist, and the most specific one is also the most doubtful. But one family member even published the story in a commemorative paper (one of those things you sometimes seen at centennials and such).

Anyway, the story was that my paternal grandfather's paternal grandfather went "out West" with the U.S. cavalry after the Civil War. There he met his future wife, a member of the Sioux nation. He married her, and returned with her entire family to his home state of Pennsylvania.

A few problems with the story, however. Initially, there seemed a possible grain of truth, because 23andMe showed me at that time as 2% Asian in Ancestry Painting. But when my father was tested, he came up as 100% European. Eventually, I got all five of my siblings to test, plus my daughter. My father still shows as 100% European, but the rest of us do show a small Native American percentage -- which is clearly from my mother.

But first back to my father's family's "legend". I managed to get a copy of my 2nd great grandfather's military pension file. That showed that his *only* service was with the Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry during the Civil War. There was nothing afterward. In addition, I located his wife and her family in Pennsylvania prior to the Civil War. They are listed as "white".

My great grandfather indeed did look "half Indian" to many people. But if he had been, my father should be about an eighth -- which would be 12.5%. That surely would be enough to show something in Ancestry Composition, but it doesn't.

Now, to my mother's side. It turns out that among her French ancestors was a man by the name of Jean Baptiste Baudreau, who migrated from French Canada to the Gulf coast of what is now Mississippi. This was right around 1700. Baudreau had two children by an Indian woman -- either the same woman, or different women. If it was only one woman, her name was Suzanne. Her tribal affiliation has not been identified, as far as I know.

I descend from her through her daughter, Magdalaine Pany (or Panyouassas) Baudreau. In the document recording Magdalaine's marriage, she is identified as the "natural daughter" (meaning her parents weren't married) of Jean Baptiste Baudreau and "une indienne".

This perhaps should be too distant to show up, yet at least some of my "Native American" segments appear to point back to her. She left quite a few descendants, and five of us show up in a "DNA Circle" at Ancestry. The person at the top of the circle is not Magdalaine herself, but one of her descendants. In addition, the members of the circle are all also descendants of her husband, who was also descended from Magdalaine. (Husband and wife were second cousins.)

All of the members of the circle show a small amount of Native American. One shows more than "trace", but this is someone with even more lines running from Magdalaine than I have. (Three of his four grandparents are at least somewhat related to each other, and all descend from Magdalaine.)

In addition, it appears that there is a connection between my maternal grandfather and the Sizemore family. It is clear, at least, that one or two of my "Native American" segments were passed on through him. Interestingly, there is NO "Native American ancestry tradition" in my maternal grandfather's family. In fact, my mother once told me of a conversation she had with a cousin from this side of her family.

My mother mentioned to her cousin that she thought she (my mother) might have some Native American ancestry. According to my mother, the cousin got very quiet for a moment. Then she said: "I do not have any Indians in my family tree. And neither do you." That was the last time my mother ever brought up the issue with her cousin.

It's too bad I can't get my mother to test (she passed away in 2003). My siblings and I all show about 2-2.5% East Asian and Native American in Ancestry Composition. (It is pretty much all categorized as "Native American".) All of it is from our mother, so she should have at least all the segments we do. It looks as if it should amount to somewhere between 3.5 and 4.5%.

EDIT: When I say I think I've put my father's family's NA tradition to rest, I really only mean "as far as I'm concerned". Many other family members may still cling to it rather tenaciously, and I doubt I'll change their minds. Not with the DNA evidence, and not with the fact that the supposed "Sioux indians" were enumerated as "white" in the 1850 U.S. census in Pennsylvania.

MattL
01-12-2015, 06:55 PM
In my father's family, there has long been a "legend" of Native American ancestry that I think I've pretty well put to rest. Different versions of the legend exist, and the most specific one is also the most doubtful. But one family member even published the story in a commemorative paper (one of those things you sometimes seen at centennials and such).

Anyway, the story was that my paternal grandfather's paternal grandfather went "out West" with the U.S. cavalry after the Civil War. There he met his future wife, a member of the Sioux nation. He married her, and returned with her entire family to his home state of Pennsylvania.

A few problems with the story, however. Initially, there seemed a possible grain of truth, because 23andMe showed me at that time as 2% Asian in Ancestry Painting. But when my father was tested, he came up as 100% European. Eventually, I got all five of my siblings to test, plus my daughter. My father still shows as 100% European, but the rest of us do show a small Native American percentage -- which is clearly from my mother.

But first back to my father's family's "legend". I managed to get a copy of my 2nd great grandfather's military pension file. That showed that his *only* service was with the Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry during the Civil War. There was nothing afterward. In addition, I located his wife and her family in Pennsylvania prior to the Civil War. They are listed as "white".

My great grandfather indeed did look "half Indian" to many people. But if he had been, my father should be about an eighth -- which would be 12.5%. That surely would be enough to show something in Ancestry Composition, but it doesn't.

Now, to my mother's side. It turns out that among her French ancestors was a man by the name of Jean Baptiste Baudreau, who migrated from French Canada to the Gulf coast of what is now Mississippi. This was right around 1700. Baudreau had two children by an Indian woman -- either the same woman, or different women. If it was only one woman, her name was Suzanne. Her tribal affiliation has not been identified, as far as I know.

I descend from her through her daughter, Magdalaine Pany (or Panyouassas) Baudreau. In the document recording Magdalaine's marriage, she is identified as the "natural daughter" (meaning her parents weren't married) of Jean Baptiste Baudreau and "une indienne".

This perhaps should be too distant to show up, yet at least some of my "Native American" segments appear to point back to her. She left quite a few descendants, and five of us show up in a "DNA Circle" at Ancestry. The person at the top of the circle is not Magdalaine herself, but one of her descendants. In addition, the members of the circle are all also descendants of her husband, who was also descended from Magdalaine. (Husband and wife were second cousins.)

All of the members of the circle show a small amount of Native American. One shows more than "trace", but this is someone with even more lines running from Magdalaine than I have. (Three of his four grandparents are at least somewhat related to each other, and all descend from Magdalaine.)

In addition, it appears that there is a connection between my maternal grandfather and the Sizemore family. It is clear, at least, that one or two of my "Native American" segments were passed on through him. Interestingly, there is NO "Native American ancestry tradition" in my maternal grandfather's family. In fact, my mother once told me of a conversation she had with a cousin from this side of her family.

My mother mentioned to her cousin that she thought she (my mother) might have some Native American ancestry. According to my mother, the cousin got very quiet for a moment. Then she said: "I do not have any Indians in my family tree. And neither do you." That was the last time my mother ever brought up the issue with her cousin.

It's too bad I can't get my mother to test (she passed away in 2003). My siblings and I all show about 2-2.5% East Asian and Native American in Ancestry Composition. (It is pretty much all categorized as "Native American".) All of it is from our mother, so she should have at least all the segments we do. It looks as if it should amount to somewhere between 3.5 and 4.5%.

EDIT: When I say I think I've put my father's family's NA tradition to rest, I really only mean "as far as I'm concerned". Many other family members may still cling to it rather tenaciously, and I doubt I'll change their minds. Not with the DNA evidence, and not with the fact that the supposed "Sioux indians" were enumerated as "white" in the 1850 U.S. census in Pennsylvania.

I hear you on that... I've found similar things. I've had two specific Native American stories on my family and some general ones. One specific one was it coming from my great grandmother's line. It turns out her father (my 2nd great grandfather) did indeed marry a Native American woman, but as his first wife, my ancestors (his daughter) was a daughter of his second wife. So she had half or partial Native American siblings.

So it made sense *why* stories came down that line but obviously didn't add up to any blood connection.

The second one is from my mother's father line (instead of her mother's line) and it revolved around an ancestor that people all thought *looked* native american. I have a family history book from this line compiled from within the family sharing stories pictures etc. Once in the book the author says everyone assumed she was Native American , my ancestor was her son who was fairly young when she died so he remembered only a few things (apparently that she smoked a corn cob pipe and fished a lot) but he loved her dearly and hated his father and ran away fairly young. Apparently years later he visited cousins trying to get more info about her and a cousin said the same thing that she was Native American.

One picture does survive of her though it's very washed out... she is very small and has dark hair, her skin-color is impossible to determine from the very old washed out picture... though she could easily just be other nationalities. My DNA, or my mother's DNA doesn't come up any sizable amount of Native American so again like you I know it's not anything recent. If she was in fact Native American she was maybe 25% at most. She comes up with in all census records however so again if she was Native American it was low enough to pass and for that DNA to not pass down in a sizable way.

On 23andme my aunt comes up a very small amount, 0.2% NA with 75% confidence level and it looks like that segment might be larger on my grandmother (I had my grandmother tested on AncestryDNA which doesn't seem to be as good at picking up small NA segments)... So I'm starting to suspect there might in fact be NA but it's quite far back. As I detail in another post I have quite a bit of ancestry in frontier areas where non-blood relations did in fact marry Native Americans so it's starting to fit, or at least plausibly fit. But until I either get stronger DNA or paper trail record I'm not going to confidently conclude it.

Jessie
01-13-2015, 02:49 AM
I'm Irish and I get NA on Gedmatch.

World9

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 74.81
2 Caucasus_Gedrosia 12.2
3 Southern 11.16
4 Amerindian 1.17
5 South_Asian 0.45
6 Siberian 0.21


K15

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 37.04
2 Atlantic 29.88
3 Baltic 11.89
4 Eastern_Euro 8.75
5 West_Asian 5.16
6 West_Med 4.95
7 Amerindian 1.15
8 Red_Sea 1.1
9 Siberian 0.07

K13
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 52.04
2 Baltic 25.27
3 West_Med 9.81
4 West_Asian 7.25
5 East_Med 1.77
6 Red_Sea 1.5
7 Amerindian 1.38
8 Siberian 0.75
9 Oceanian 0.24

randwulf
01-13-2015, 03:27 AM
I would be careful using ANE K7 for anything but comparisons to ancient genetics... I'd use the K13 or K15 for more modern comparisons.

Yes, I get this and not debating it. The reason I used it was because it made a nice "visual" that didn't conflict with Eurogenes K13 or K15, it was just easier to show the Amerind/East Asian "stacks" or "snippets" within the chromsomes (as well as the African areas) because of the small color pallet making the Amerind/East Asian bright red/yellow combined and the African light/olive green combined (easy to "see"), also helping with the resolution being lower to sum up similar components . Just to make sure I wasn't making up a story, I ran back through things again. The pictures look very similar, just slicing and dicing things differently (and the more resolution, the more the Asian snippets got multi-colored, but still "Asian/Amerind" and "African" in the same places). Here are the results for just the Asian/Amerind stuff:

Eurogenes K7 - 1.47% East Eurasian plus whatever ANE should go with that (I am suggesting places where the red and yellow are together in similar proportions in the painting since an Amerind according to the spreadsheet link given earlier is about 60/40)
Eurogenes K13 - 2.06% East Asian/Amerind mix
Eurogenes K15 - 1.54% East Asian/Amerind mix but moves some of the Asian stuff into one category that then reports 0% in summary, so dilutes the results
Geno 2.0 - 2% Northeast Asian
MDLP K23B - 2.22% plus whatever from the Ancestral Altaic category
MDLP World22 - 1.41%, but splits the Amerind into four categories so that I am 10% x-Amerind in one chromosome, 7% y-Amerind in another, etc. and each category is either 0% or very low but visually looks grouped within the chromosome painting, so maybe not noise but dilutes the results
MDLP World - 1.92%
Harappa - 1.24% plus several splits like MDLP World 22 that are thrown away, but within the same snippets/grouped as the other calculators, plus a lot of the East Asian snippets are mixed with "Baloch" category, making it seem that some of the stuff is getting thrown into that category.

Remember that the question of the thread was "How much.....", so just trying to provide some kind of answer to see if there is common experience. I don't have the "native" family rumors and certainly nothing in the last four or five generations, so I am not needing to explain any such rumors, but have known Colonial Virginia roots that trace into the 1600's with several unknowns on paper. Well - I do have a mystery person from the Hatcher family five generations back with just a first name "Elizabeth". At any rate, as I said before, I match on these very odd looking swatches 7cM - 28cM with other people with Colonial Virginia roots. It seems possible that this weak but consistent evidence could come from that source. At the least, I think it is worth trying to get my two parents tested to try to sort it out. My father has very solid recent-European ancestor immigrants so that having the two of them to sort it out should reveal if it all comes from one side and maybe in larger proportions in my mother. I would think the pieces would have to be coming from multiple lines within her family tree somehow to have any echo of it.

Gray Fox
01-13-2015, 04:50 AM
I pulled the trigger and sent Dr. McDonald an email. Hopefully he can shed some light on the questions I can't seem to answer.

randwulf
01-14-2015, 01:52 AM
I'm Irish and I get NA on Gedmatch.



Very good - that was something I was trying to learn. How does it appear in the chromosome breakdowns? Are the percentages spiking in certain chromosomes? When you "paint" in Gedmatch, does it appear just like some noisy add-ons to other components or do you have sections that are mostly or all NA or NA plus Asians?

Jessie
01-14-2015, 01:44 PM
My mother has higher ANE than me and gets higher Amerindian on World9 on K13 and K15 she has less Amerindian than me.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 73.50
2 Caucasus_Gedrosia 12.54
3 Southern 11.39
4 Amerindian 1.31
5 South_Asian 1.26

K13
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 50.42
2 Baltic 23.81
3 West_Med 12.96
4 West_Asian 8.32
5 South_Asian 2.10
6 Amerindian 1.01

I looked at my mother's World9 and the Amerindian is mostly on its own. Chromosome 14 has a large chunk. The only section where it has another component is with East Asian.

Gray Fox
01-14-2015, 01:48 PM
My mother has higher ANE than me and gets higher Amerindian on World9 on K13 and K15 she has less Amerindian than me.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 73.50
2 Caucasus_Gedrosia 12.54
3 Southern 11.39
4 Amerindian 1.31
5 South_Asian 1.26

K13
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 50.42
2 Baltic 23.81
3 West_Med 12.96
4 West_Asian 8.32
5 South_Asian 2.10
6 Amerindian 1.01

I looked at my mother's World9 and the Amerindian is mostly on its own. Chromosome 14 has a large chunk. The only section where it has another component is with East Asian.

Her South Asian is just a tad lower than mine on the K13 run. Is there any possibility for Romani ancestors? I'm really starting to think this component amongst West Euro's is either noise or something ancient.

Jessie
01-14-2015, 01:50 PM
Her South Asian is just a tad lower than mine on the K13 run. Is there any possibility for Romani ancestors? I'm really starting to think this component amongst West Euro's is either noise or something ancient.

No I doubt it. All Irish as far as I'm aware. I think South Asian comes up a lot for the British Isles.

SwampThing27
01-14-2015, 07:19 PM
No I doubt it. All Irish as far as I'm aware. I think South Asian comes up a lot for the British Isles.

Maybe its just a matter of different calculators classifying a northern vs a southern Asian component. Baloch and Gedrosia for example are higher in British for whatever reason, but maybe for some of us, part of that Baloch/Gedrosia is being pulled into a South Asian component.

Jessie
01-15-2015, 06:25 AM
I've just done my daughter's K13 and this is what she gets.

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 52.45
2 Baltic 21.08
3 West_Med 14.89
4 West_Asian 5.98
5 East_Med 1.74
6 Amerindian 1.42

Mixed Mode is quite interesting with some Amerindian and Greenlander popping up.

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.6% Irish + 12.4% French_Basque @ 1.29
2 88.9% West_Scottish + 11.1% French_Basque @ 1.45
3 88.5% West_Scottish + 11.5% Spanish_Aragon @ 1.75
4 87.5% West_Scottish + 12.5% Southwest_French @ 1.79
5 87.9% West_Scottish + 12.1% Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.82
6 98.9% Southwest_English + 1.1% Karitiana @ 1.86
7 98.7% Southwest_English + 1.3% North_Amerindian @ 1.87
8 98.8% Southwest_English + 1.2% Pima @ 1.87
9 98.8% Southwest_English + 1.2% Mayan @ 1.88
10 88.8% West_Scottish + 11.2% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.88
11 87.6% Irish + 12.4% Spanish_Aragon @ 1.93
12 94.9% West_Scottish + 5.1% Sardinian @ 1.94
13 89.8% West_Scottish + 10.2% Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.94
14 98.7% Southwest_English + 1.3% East_Greenlander @ 2.01
15 98.7% Southwest_English + 1.3% West_Greenlander @ 2.07
16 89.5% West_Scottish + 10.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.1
17 89.8% West_Scottish + 10.2% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.11
18 89.5% West_Scottish + 10.5% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.12
19 88.2% West_Scottish + 11.8% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.12
20 88.8% West_Scottish + 11.2% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.12

randwulf
03-30-2015, 05:07 AM
My parents test results came back - it turns out the "East Eurasian" types of DNA sources for me primarily come from my father. His ancestors are all from Germany, immigrated to the USA (Pittsburgh) in the 1875-1895 time frame. If you were to draw lines from Saarlouis to Aschaffenburg to Nuremberg to Heilbronn and back to Saarlouis on a map, you would catch all of them. I am not sure what would produce results like his. All the calculators pinpoint the right area for his ancestry based on the primary components, but the reference populations I see in some of the spreadsheets for that area of Germany don't seem to have any significant minority results from East Eurasia.

My mom - with the 1/2 colonial Virginia, 3/8 colonial PA, 1/8 English/unk. Vermont background - has a mix that looks reasonable for a European mix from that area. She does have a small amount of Amerindian looking DNA, but it is not the primary source to me. If it is more than noise, it would have to be far back (which matches my paper research where all her known ancestors are European descent).

I put the Eurogenes K13 results below, but MDLP, Dodecad, and Harappa all have very similar results to these, even on the minority results.

Population Mom Dad Me
N_Altantic 44.17% 42.79% 45.22%
Baltic 24.10% 20.06% 19.93%
West_Med 18.50% 18.06% 19.46%
West_Asian 3.83% 4.15% 1.03%
East_Med 6.95% 10.42% 10.22%
Red_Sea 0.00% 0.21% 1.23%
South_Asian 1.68 0.00% 0.64%
East_Asian 0.00% 0.84% 0.80%
Siberian 0.00% 2.01% 0.77%
Amerindian 0.43% 0.55% 0.49%
Oceanian 0.00% 0.61% 0.00%
NE_African 0.34% 0.00% 0.20%
Sub-Saharan 0.00% 0.23% 0.00%

randwulf
04-04-2015, 10:31 PM
My quest has taken a strange turn. I already posted the background in another related thread, so this is the link:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3663-Post-your-West-Eurasia-K8-results&p=77737&viewfull=1#post77737

Summary is that the East Asian isn't normal West European stuff like Saami, Tatar, etc. It is most like Han Chinese. I may have to look closely at the "paper" stuff I have from my father's line.

Cinnamon orange
04-10-2015, 07:05 AM
Randwulf,

Could some of your German side have spent time in Eastern Europe? The oceanian (probably mislabled), Siberian and Amerindian seem not unusual for people of east euro ancestry. Many Germans passed through the Balkans and far Eastern Europe and could have picked up central Asian/Turkic ancestry there. I doubt it came via the Han, though I do not have time read the link right now. It looks like what I and others of east euro ancestry get, probably from remnant central Asians that settled there such as Cumans.

randwulf
04-10-2015, 11:02 AM
Randwulf,

Could some of your German side have spent time in Eastern Europe? The oceanian (probably mislabled), Siberian and Amerindian seem not unusual for people of east euro ancestry. Many Germans passed through the Balkans and far Eastern Europe and could have picked up central Asian/Turkic ancestry there. I doubt it came via the Han, though I do not have time read the link right now. It looks like what I and others of east euro ancestry get, probably from remnant central Asians that settled there such as Cumans.

Yes, I thought that may be the case, too, but I have no indication they did and Davidski tested it specifically and said it is definitely not the type eastern Europeans get. You have to read the link for his quotes. He sent me some graphs and they show the picture well to go with his quotes. I am learning that there was opportunity for Han Chinese admixture in Pittsburgh after 1870, though it would take an NPE, I think. I may post one of the graphs later.

Morges
05-26-2015, 08:22 AM
I'm Irish and I get NA on Gedmatch.

World9

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 74.81
2 Caucasus_Gedrosia 12.2
3 Southern 11.16
4 Amerindian 1.17
5 South_Asian 0.45
6 Siberian 0.21


K15

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 37.04
2 Atlantic 29.88
3 Baltic 11.89
4 Eastern_Euro 8.75
5 West_Asian 5.16
6 West_Med 4.95
7 Amerindian 1.15
8 Red_Sea 1.1
9 Siberian 0.07

K13
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 52.04
2 Baltic 25.27
3 West_Med 9.81
4 West_Asian 7.25
5 East_Med 1.77
6 Red_Sea 1.5
7 Amerindian 1.38
8 Siberian 0.75
9 Oceanian 0.24

Irish american?because i have seen some full europeans that score 1% of amerindian admix as well.

Jessie
05-26-2015, 08:31 AM
Irish american?because i have seen some full europeans that score 1% of amerindian admix as well.

Irish as in Irish. Born in Ireland with only known Irish ancestry.

BalkanKiwi
06-08-2015, 11:41 AM
I came across this thread and thought I'd share if it helps you guys out.

World9

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 68.65
2 Caucasus_Gedrosia 14.38
3 Southern 14.29
4 South_Asian 1.61
5 Australasian 0.82
6 Amerindian 0.14
7 East_Asian 0.08
8 Siberian 0.03

K13

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 42.47
2 Baltic 25.81
3 West_Med 13.93
4 East_Med 9.01
5 West_Asian 5.43
6 Oceanian 1.54
7 South_Asian 0.8
8 East_Asian 0.53
9 Amerindian 0.3
10 Red_Sea 0.1
11 Sub-Saharan 0.09

K15

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 30.49
2 Atlantic 25.57
3 Baltic 11.53
4 Eastern_Euro 10.58
5 West_Med 10.07
6 East_Med 5.01
7 West_Asian 4.9
8 Oceanian 1.38
9 South_Asian 0.34
10 Southeast_Asian 0.06
11 Amerindian 0.04
12 Red_Sea 0.02

Torc Seanathair
06-08-2015, 05:22 PM
I'm known to be Scots-Irish, English, & Alsace-Lorraine. I've had ancestors on North America since 1620. My Dad thought he was a descendant of Pocahontas, but I don't think that has any substance.


World9
Amerindian 0.34%
East_Asian -
African 0.09%
Atlantic_Baltic 71.83%
Australasian -
Siberian 0.46%
Caucasus_Gedrosia 12.04%
Southern 14.12%
South_Asian 1.11%

K15
North_Sea 40.35%
Atlantic 20.81%
Baltic 8.17%
Eastern_Euro 9.71%
West_Med 12.46%
West_Asian 3.14%
East_Med 2.28%
Red_Sea 1.82%
South_Asian 0.53%
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.73%
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

K13
North_Atlantic 47.69%
Baltic 23.10%
West_Med 14.54%
West_Asian 5.27%
East_Med 4.41%
Red_Sea 2.64%
South_Asian 0.95%
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.25%
Amerindian 1.12%
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Torc Seanathair
06-08-2015, 05:53 PM
These are my wife's results. Her gg grandmother was part Choctaw.

World9
Amerindian 0.26%
East_Asian -
African 0.07%
Atlantic_Baltic 72.86%
Australasian -
Siberian 1.42%
Caucasus_Gedrosia 13.31%
Southern 11.57%
South_Asian 0.52%

K15
North_Sea 34.49%
Atlantic 26.38%
Baltic 10.10%
Eastern_Euro 10.82%
West_Med 9.48%
West_Asian 4.76%
East_Med 1.89%
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 0.81%
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian 0.36%
Amerindian 0.22%
Oceanian 0.30%
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.38%

K13
North_Atlantic 46.47%
Baltic 23.84%
West_Med 14.60%
West_Asian 8.21%
East_Med 3.33%
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 1.16%
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.89%
Amerindian 0.47%
Oceanian 0.55%
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.48%

BalkanKiwi
06-10-2015, 08:55 AM
Some other results:

Eurogenes K10 Steppe
FTDNA – 0.82% Native American
23andMe – 0.41% Native American

Eurogenes K7
FTDNA – 1.82% Native American
23andMe – 1.43% Native American

Eurogenes K8

FTDNA – 1.23% Amerindian
23andMe – 0.80% Native American