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Wolfie
12-30-2014, 11:58 AM
Has anyone read this?


"When Scotland was Jewish: DNA Evidence, Archeology, Analysis of Migrations"
By Elizabeth Caldwell Hirschman, Donald Neal Yates

George Chandler
12-30-2014, 11:08 PM
Has anyone read this?


"When Scotland was Jewish: DNA Evidence, Archeology, Analysis of Migrations"
By Elizabeth Caldwell Hirschman, Donald Neal Yates

Hi Wolfie,

I haven't read it myself but it isn't impossible that people with ancient tribal affiliations found their way to the Isles during different periods of the diaspora. In my opinion the ancient tribes of Israel formed after leaving Egypt and were largely comprised of Hyksos with the Hebrews being the leadership of each tribe. So you could have people from the tribe of Dan having entered into the Isles (or other tribes for that matter) but it doesn't mean they were actual Hebrews.

George

Leeroy Jenkins
12-30-2014, 11:29 PM
No, but the last king of Scotland was apparently Ugandan and possibly even a cannibal, so hey, who am I to be skeptical?

http://a2.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fill,dpr_1.0,g_face,h_300,q_80,w_300/MTE1ODA0OTcxNTM4MDIzOTQ5.jpg

Hando
12-31-2014, 02:27 AM
Has anyone read this?


"When Scotland was Jewish: DNA Evidence, Archeology, Analysis of Migrations"
By Elizabeth Caldwell Hirschman, Donald Neal Yates
This sounds like a theory from a Dan Brown novel.

Salkin
12-31-2014, 11:19 AM
No, but the last king of Scotland was apparently Ugandan and possibly even a cannibal, so hey, who am I to be skeptical?

http://a2.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fill,dpr_1.0,g_face,h_300,q_80,w_300/MTE1ODA0OTcxNTM4MDIzOTQ5.jpg

Allegedly, he wanted to rename Uganda after his own first name, but changed his mind when he found out people from Cyprus are called Cypriots. :behindsofa:

alan
12-31-2014, 01:33 PM
I did read that Scotland was the only European country to never have a pogrom on its small Jewish trading communities in the cities. Anyway Happy Hogmanay everyone. Remember its bad luck forr a blonde or redhead and good luck to have someone tall dark and handsome as the first person through your door after midnight tonight. Thats why I always step outside the door for a second and come back in on the stroke of midnight :0)

Jean M
12-31-2014, 04:39 PM
I did read that Scotland was the only European country to never have a pogrom on its small Jewish trading communities in the cities.

True. If anyone is interested in boring old facts, here's the summary from my webpage on synagogues:


Jews are mentioned in English ecclesiastical documents as early as 740 AD and came to England in significant numbers after the Norman conquest, settling in London and other towns of significant size: Bristol, Cambridge, Canterbury, Exeter, Gloucester, Hereford, Ipswich, Nottingham, Warwick, Worcester and York. After outbreaks of anti-Semitism, they were driven from England in 1290. Wales was under English rule by that time. There was no persecution of Jews in Scotland, but little to attract them there either at that date. Urban life was less developed in Scotland than in England. What's more - England and Scotland were at war. Most English Jews left for France and Belgium.

http://www.buildinghistory.org/buildings/synagogues.shtml

apophis99942
01-04-2015, 02:31 AM
I recall that the Scots were said to have had an aversion to pork consumption until a few centuries ago.

Jean M
01-04-2015, 09:46 AM
I recall that the Scots were said to have had an aversion to pork consumption until a few centuries ago.

Here's Wikipedia on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_pork_taboo . As you see, this was a naive idea by writers noting that pigs were little kept in the period 1500 and 1800, when there was a shortage of pig fodder, and attributing this to superstition.


An archaeological survey of pork consumption in Scotland by the Society of Antiquities in Scotland in 2000 states: "Whether there is any archaeological evidence of this prejudice against pigs, for whatever reason, is open to question." and that "During the medieval period, it has been noted that rural sites contained more pig bones than urban sites, and that the lowest relative frequencies come from the most southerly of the burghs considered, Peebles and Perth. This contradicts the notion that it was the ‘Highlanders’ who abhorred pork, unless it is assumed that, despite this dislike, they continued to produce it for sale to others."

David Mc
01-04-2015, 11:21 AM
Full disclosure: I've only been able to piece together the book's arguments from a number of online comments and reviews, so take this for what it's worth. It smacks of the same kind of method that gave us Anglo-Israelism (or British-Israelism) a couple of centuries ago, butressed by the same kinds of dodgy linguistic associations, uncorroborated genealogies, and pseudo-history. While I'm sure it will be a fun read for some, that's not where I want to put my money. If someone has read it, and it isn't revisionist clap-trap, I'll reconsider.

apophis99942
01-04-2015, 11:24 AM
Bueltmann et al in The Scottish Diaspora concludes that Scots of the 18th/19th century were not eating meat because of its price.

Motzart
01-04-2015, 11:51 AM
I opened this thread expecting a pun on Scottish thriftiness.

rossa
01-04-2015, 04:35 PM
I opened this thread expecting a pun on Scottish thriftiness.

I was expecting something on Rabbi C Nesbitt!

For anyone not familiar with Scottish tv.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AraqivhpJI8

George Chandler
01-04-2015, 05:51 PM
Full disclosure: I've only been able to piece together the book's arguments from a number of online comments and reviews, so take this for what it's worth. It smacks of the same kind of method that gave us Anglo-Israelism (or British-Israelism) a couple of centuries ago, butressed by the same kinds of dodgy linguistic associations, uncorroborated genealogies, and pseudo-history. While I'm sure it will be a fun read for some, that's not where I want to put my money. If someone has read it, and it isn't revisionist clap-trap, I'll reconsider.

There always has been and always will be people who try to tie themselves to the lost tribes of Israel. It's the same as people who try and make the age of certain SNP's younger than they are so they fall within the biblical genealogy period.

vettor
01-04-2015, 06:02 PM
maybe the vikings taught the scots to eat Pork, as pork was one of the main meats on viking plates
http://www.history.com/news/hungry-history/the-surprisingly-sufficient-viking-diet

There is even a tale that says, due to the restricted/insufficient lands for burials, the slaves who died where not buried, but, where cut up and fed to the pigs..................maybe another old wives tale

alan
01-04-2015, 06:53 PM
I recall that the Scots were said to have had an aversion to pork consumption until a few centuries ago.


I am petty sure that it was originally a misunderstanding by a commentator. In the past pigs were often fed for part of the year on acorns which clearly can only be done where there are large oak woods. In many parts of highland Scotland there was probably a lack of oakwoods i.e. treeless area or areas of higher altitude, thin soils, pine woods etc.

AJL
01-04-2015, 06:59 PM
Yates (or as he sometimes calls himself "Panther Yates") is, even if one is charitable, best regarded as someone who makes persistently strange claims.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/local-news/dna-lab-owner-elvis-is-not-dead

GailT
01-04-2015, 08:11 PM
Yates (or as he sometimes calls himself "Panther Yates") is, even if one is charitable, best regarded as someone who makes persistently strange claims.

The other co-author, Hirschman, is a professor of marketing. Some people will say anything to make a buck.

Alanson
01-05-2015, 10:31 AM
Well Judaism did spread and accept converts it was not a closed religion. Funny thing British Israel Christianity was actually very philoSemitic, but now it's off shoot known as Christian Identity is quite racist and anti-Semitic.

Agamemnon
01-05-2015, 03:16 PM
Well Judaism did spread and accept converts it was not a closed religion.

That was a very long time ago, prior to the emergence of Judaism's rabbinical and karaite streams in all likeliness.

Alanson
01-09-2015, 04:57 AM
That was a very long time ago, prior to the emergence of Judaism's rabbinical and karaite streams in all likeliness.

Possibly but there several Jewish ethnic groups that seem to largely descent from converts. I have no idea when the place of conversion took place. Though the conservation of the Khazars to Judaism seems to have occurred during the formation of rabbinical Judaism. It also seem that the Karaim Jews who took on the Karaite sect were pretty much just Crimean Turks/Tatars who adopted this faith. I think the closing of conversion has occurred very recently.

Agamemnon
01-09-2015, 03:22 PM
Possibly but there several Jewish ethnic groups that seem to largely descent from converts. I have no idea when the place of conversion took place. Though the conservation of the Khazars to Judaism seems to have occurred during the formation of rabbinical Judaism. It also seem that the Karaim Jews who took on the Karaite sect were pretty much just Crimean Turks/Tatars who adopted this faith. I think the closing of conversion has occurred very recently.

Quite unlikely, the diaspora halted the conversion process and karaites didn't even accept converts... So there's that. I'd say that conversions gradually stopped with the Tanna'im.

AJL
01-09-2015, 03:39 PM
It also seem that the Karaim Jews who took on the Karaite sect were pretty much just Crimean Turks/Tatars who adopted this faith.

Not quite:

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/karaites.html

The yDNA is suggestive of Near Eastern origins, while the mtDNA is suggestive of more diverse Eurasian backgrounds.

George Chandler
01-09-2015, 04:17 PM
Here is an interesting link I got from another DNA group showing the 40 known Y DNA ancestors of the Ashkenazi.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3487498/webpage/Ashkenazi%20Y-DNA%20branches.html

George

AJL
01-09-2015, 04:41 PM
^ It's not a bad analysis but is mistaken in its assumption that the bulk of the ancestors of Ashkenazim necessarily came from Iberia.

George Chandler
01-09-2015, 05:32 PM
^ It's not a bad analysis but is mistaken in its assumption that the bulk of the ancestors of Ashkenazim necessarily came from Iberia.

Where do you think the bulk of the Ashkenazim originate? I find it interesting the TMRCA's are not that old from the testing that was done.

seferhabahir
01-09-2015, 06:04 PM
Where do you think the bulk of the Ashkenazim originate? I find it interesting the TMRCA's are not that old from the testing that was done.

We need to distinguish between TMRCA and age of the lineages. For example, I am pretty sure that the TMRCA of my Jewish cluster in Z251 is probably not more than 1000 years ago because of the very small male Ashkenazi population that existed at that time, but the beginnings of that lineage might be 4,000-5,000 years old when it separated from the rest of S9294 (no doubt in Europe somewhere). Similarly, the TMRCA of the Ashkenazi R2 group (the bigger one anyway) is also maybe 1000 years old, but that lineage likely diverged from a Mizrachi Jewish R2 group a long before that, maybe another 1000 years earlier. In the R2 case, it seems clear that the Ashkenazim originated somewhere in the Middle East because of the F1092 and F1758 SNP evidence (shared by the Ashkenazi group, the Mizrachi group, and a couple of Middle Eastern non-Jews). I think you will find that the majority of current Ashkenazi clusters have similar recent TMRCAs, including R1a1 Levites and R-L2 Taunus lineage guys. This doesn't mean anybody converted recently, it means the pool of Ashkenazi Jews in the Rhineland 1000 years ago wasn't very large.

seferhabahir
01-09-2015, 06:17 PM
^ It's not a bad analysis but is mistaken in its assumption that the bulk of the ancestors of Ashkenazim necessarily came from Iberia.

I would also disagree with his assumptions that the R-Z251 Ashkenazim came from the British Isles based on the fact that it's where all the other Z251 shows up. I don't really know where all the sons of DF13 were running around soon after they were spawned 4,000-5,000 years ago. Probably not the British Isles, and more likely on the continent. I'm still trying to reconcile my views of Z251 with Mark Jost's Danube drop-off points for R1b>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21>DF13 and his ages for those SNPs.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3643-L23-gt-gt-DF13-Up-The-Danube-River-by-SNPs-and-Origin-Variance&p=64054#post64054

JaG
01-09-2015, 06:25 PM
TMRCAs reflect formation and demographic events throughout history of a population. TMRCAs on their own provide no clue on origins. As in the cases provided by seferhabahir one has to look at neighboring ("brother") lineages to get an idea. Many (apparently most) Ashkenazi clusters are distant from neighboring lineages regardless of their geographic origin or current geographic distribution.

seferhabahir
01-09-2015, 06:36 PM
Quite unlikely, the diaspora halted the conversion process and karaites didn't even accept converts... So there's that. I'd say that conversions gradually stopped with the Tanna'im.

The Tannaitic era stretches into to the time of the Bar Kokhba revolt, which decimated the Jewish population (at least in Judea), and some think even more disastrous than the Holocaust, percentage wise. After the revolt and reduction of population, I don't think conversion was viewed as positive or even benign. The center of the Jewish world went east to the Babylonian Jewish community, and whatever there was that existed in the west over in Europe was likely pretty fragmentary. The sages also put an end to the prophetic era after Bar Kokhba and maybe started discouraging conversions (unless you came back and asked sincerely three times).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt

George Chandler
01-09-2015, 06:38 PM
We need to distinguish between TMRCA and age of the lineages. For example, I am pretty sure that the TMRCA of my Jewish cluster in Z251 is probably not more than 1000 years ago because of the very small male Ashkenazi population that existed at that time, but the beginnings of that lineage might be 4,000-5,000 years old when it separated from the rest of S9294 (no doubt in Europe somewhere). Similarly, the TMRCA of the Ashkenazi R2 group (the bigger one anyway) is also maybe 1000 years old, but that lineage likely diverged from a Mizrachi Jewish R2 group a long before that, maybe another 1000 years earlier. In the R2 case, it seems clear that the Ashkenazim originated somewhere in the Middle East because of the F1092 and F1758 SNP evidence (shared by the Ashkenazi group, the Mizrachi group, and a couple of Middle Eastern non-Jews). I think you will find that the majority of current Ashkenazi clusters have similar recent TMRCAs, including R1a1 Levites and R-L2 Taunus lineage guys. This doesn't mean anybody converted recently, it means the pool of Ashkenazi Jews in the Rhineland 1000 years ago wasn't very large.

I do agree but found it interesting that the point where they tie into other lineages was so recent. I sort of expected tie in points which would match Roman or Greek periods. I will have to look closer at their research but I'm not a fan of using 12 STR's to determine how closely two lines are. To get a good idea it should be full on 111 marker and Full Y testing (Big Y, Y Prime, Y Elite etc) to get a proper idea of the connection.

George

AJL
01-09-2015, 06:45 PM
Where do you think the bulk of the Ashkenazim originate? I find it interesting the TMRCA's are not that old from the testing that was done.

There are several other main pathways including Near East (mainly Babylon and Persia) > Russian Empire, sometimes by way of the Ottoman Empire; and Near East > Roman Empire > Rhine area > Central/East Europe.

Until the 12th century the area between what are now Egypt and Libya to the west and Iran/Afghanistan to the east had by far more Jews than elsewhere, and these did not all end up in Iberia, with documented movement directly to Kyiv, for example.

I am guessing an unexpected West Euro-like R1b subclade among Ashkenazim could have been acquired near the Rhine since there were Jewish settlements there dating back thousands of years. Britain just does not seem likely as a yDNA source to me either as compared to almost any other candidate locale such as Belgium, France, Netherlands, Germany, Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, Spain, Portugal, etc.

George Chandler
01-09-2015, 06:54 PM
There are several other main pathways including Near East (mainly Babylon and Persia) > Russian Empire, sometimes by way of the Ottoman Empire; and Near East > Roman Empire > Rhine area > Central/East Europe.

Until the 12th century the area between what are now Egypt and Libya to the west and Iran/Afghanistan to the east had by far more Jews than elsewhere, and these did not all end up in Iberia, with documented movement directly to Kyiv, for example.

I am guessing an unexpected West Euro-like R1b subclade among Ashkenazim could have been acquired near the Rhine since there were Jewish settlements there dating back thousands of years. Britain just does not seem likely as a yDNA source to me either as compared to almost any other candidate locale such as Belgium, France, Netherlands, Germany, Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, Spain, Portugal, etc.

Many of the Jews who lived in England long ago left for Poland when laws became difficult for them. Where were the oldest historical synagogues located in non Sephardic countries?

George

AJL
01-09-2015, 07:05 PM
Many of the Jews who lived in England long ago left for Poland when laws became difficult for them. Where were the oldest historical synagogues located in non Sephardic countries?

George

That's beyond my expertise -- I am guessing outside Judea itself, probably many of the earliest spots were in nearby places such as (today's) Egypt, Libya, Cyprus, Greece, Iraq, Iran, Armenia, Georgia, Syria, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc. Many of these areas claim very old Jewish communities.

George Chandler
01-09-2015, 07:10 PM
That's beyond my expertise -- I am guessing outside Judea itself, probably many of the earliest spots were in nearby places such as (today's) Egypt, Libya, Cyprus, Greece, Iraq, Iran, Armenia, Georgia, Syria, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc. Many of these areas claim very old Jewish communities.

Those would fit under Mizrahi and I know there are old synagogue sites throughout Spain, Italy and Greece. Not sure where the oldest non Sephardic community was?

AJL
01-09-2015, 07:38 PM
Those would fit under Mizrahi

Yes but many people left these areas for Europe. If you mean the first settlements in what later came to be thought of as Ashkenazi areas, then potentially somewhere like Cologne or Mainz.

George Chandler
01-09-2015, 07:46 PM
Yes but many people left these areas for Europe. If you mean the first settlements in what later came to be thought of as Ashkenazi areas, then potentially somewhere like Cologne or Mainz.

Ok thanks. I thought I had read before there was a Jewish community in the Cologne area around the second century AD but I could be mistaken and can't find the reference.

JaG
01-09-2015, 08:18 PM
Jewish Community in Cologne (http://www.museenkoeln.de/archaeologische-zone/default.asp?s=4311)

George Chandler
01-09-2015, 08:23 PM
Jewish Community in Cologne (http://www.museenkoeln.de/archaeologische-zone/default.asp?s=4311)

Thanks. It wasn't the same reference I saw before but your link is better.

seferhabahir
01-09-2015, 10:09 PM
Yes but many people left these areas for Europe. If you mean the first settlements in what later came to be thought of as Ashkenazi areas, then potentially somewhere like Cologne or Mainz.

Quoting loosely from "A Historical Atlas of the Jewish People"

Early recorded presence of Jews in medieval Europe is evidence of colonies of oriental or Syriac (Mizrachi) in towns north of the Loire or in southern Gaul during the 5th and 6th centuries. Some commerce and trade was carried out almost exclusively by non-indigenous groups. Only after the Carolingian period did Jewry destined to be known as "Ashkenazi begin to form and evolve its patterns of organization and cultural life.

These communities numbered only in the few thousands, hence the tight genetic clusters we see today and the number of common ancestors that seem to come from this time period.

Humanist
01-09-2015, 10:17 PM
Quoting loosely from "A Historical Atlas of the Jewish People"

Early recorded presence of Jews in medieval Europe is evidence of colonies of oriental or Syriac (Mizrachi) in towns north of the Loire or in southern Gaul during the 5th and 6th centuries.

Can you please explain what that means, exactly.

Agamemnon
01-10-2015, 03:11 AM
What I find quite telling is the extremely rare and close-knit Ashkenazi Jewish R1a-M458 cases, this does a huge disfavour to the whole "Eastern European converts" claim (which is already untenable if we take autosomal evidence into account).

parasar
01-10-2015, 03:42 AM
What I find quite telling is the extremely rare and close-knit Ashkenazi Jewish R1a-M458 cases, this does a huge disfavour to the whole "Eastern European converts" claim (which is already untenable if we take autosomal evidence into account).
Do you mean R1a-Z2124, Z2122, F1345, CTS6 or the AJ cluster under R1a-Z283 M458?

Agamemnon
01-10-2015, 03:56 AM
Do you mean R1a-Z2124, Z2122, F1345, CTS6 or the AJ cluster under R1a-Z283 M458?

The latter of course.

seferhabahir
01-10-2015, 06:02 AM
Can you please explain what that means, exactly.

I mistyped that sentence, but here is the exact quote and the whole paragraph. Don't know if it will help, but it's what they mean...

"The history of the beginnings of a Jewish presence in Europe cannot be thought of as a linear and continuous development. The evidence is fragmentary, random, and often inconsistent. The earliest recorded presence of Jews in medieval Europe is that of colonies of oriental or "Syrian" merchants in towns north of the Loire or in southern Gaul during the fifth and sixth centuries. In the historians' debate concerning the demarcation of periods, the existence of these colonies attests to the persistence of trade in the period of transition from the urban and Mediterranean world of Late Anitquity to the Middle Ages. It also indicates the contraction of commerce which was then limited solely to the import of luxury goods and carried out almost exclusively by non-indigenous groups which inherited the role of the Greek-speaking diaspora.

Humanist
01-10-2015, 06:14 AM
I mistyped that sentence, but here is the exact quote and the whole paragraph. Don't know if it will help, but it's what they mean...


Yes, it does. Thank you. I was intrigued there for a second, when I read "Syriac." I believe some Eastern Aramaic (specifically Jewish Babylonian Aramaic) may have been found in England, from the time of Hadrian, although it is attributed an incorrect etymology, in my opinion (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?755-Ancestral-Journeys-The-Peopling-of-Europe-from-the-First-Venturers-to-the-Vikings&p=17614&viewfull=1#post17614).

Alanson
01-10-2015, 07:23 AM
Not quite:

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/karaites.html

The yDNA is suggestive of Near Eastern origins, while the mtDNA is suggestive of more diverse Eurasian backgrounds.

Thanks for this, I guess that would make sense, after all, it's probably Jewish males taking Crimean Tatar/Turkic females and mixing with them. I read that Yemenite Jews are largely descendants of Arabian converts, and in this regard this seems to be true on their case, they hardly differ from ethnic Muslim Arabians, but they converted during the 5th century most of Yemen and parts of Saudi were actually Jewish majorities.

George Chandler
01-10-2015, 03:20 PM
I mistyped that sentence, but here is the exact quote and the whole paragraph. Don't know if it will help, but it's what they mean...

"The history of the beginnings of a Jewish presence in Europe cannot be thought of as a linear and continuous development. The evidence is fragmentary, random, and often inconsistent. The earliest recorded presence of Jews in medieval Europe is that of colonies of oriental or "Syrian" merchants in towns north of the Loire or in southern Gaul during the fifth and sixth centuries. In the historians' debate concerning the demarcation of periods, the existence of these colonies attests to the persistence of trade in the period of transition from the urban and Mediterranean world of Late Anitquity to the Middle Ages. It also indicates the contraction of commerce which was then limited solely to the import of luxury goods and carried out almost exclusively by non-indigenous groups which inherited the role of the Greek-speaking diaspora.

So do you discount the reference to the Jewish community in Cologne around the first century, or do you think that is just a distinction the author uses for the Roman period and the medieval period?

AJL
01-10-2015, 06:17 PM
I read that Yemenite Jews are largely descendants of Arabian converts, and in this regard this seems to be true on their case, they hardly differ from ethnic Muslim Arabians, but they converted during the 5th century most of Yemen and parts of Saudi were actually Jewish majorities.

Indeed, it would likely be very interesting to do analyses of ancient remains from areas like Sena and Mecca because I have the feeling influence flowed both ways until the 6th century. Unfortunately it's not by any means the easiest area in the world to find then extract viable DNA.

I believe Yemenite Jews also have some African mtDNA that is seldom if ever found in non-Yemenite Jews, probably because of the complex ties between Yemen and the Horn of Africa.

DMXX
01-10-2015, 09:03 PM
Indeed, it would likely be very interesting to do analyses of ancient remains from areas like Sena and Mecca because I have the feeling influence flowed both ways until the 6th century. Unfortunately it's not by any means the easiest area in the world to find then extract viable DNA.

I believe Yemenite Jews also have some African mtDNA that is seldom if ever found in non-Yemenite Jews, probably because of the complex ties between Yemen and the Horn of Africa.

Unfortunately, the Saudi government has been routinely destroying all manner of ancient structures irrespective of religious affiliation (f.ex. many early Islamic buildings have been demolished around Mecca to facilitate the business they developed out of the Hajj pilgrimage (http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2013/oct/14/as-the-hajj-begins-the-destruction-of-meccas-heritage-continues)). Their cultural barbarism is completely erasing the diverse history of that part of the peninsula (the Hejaz).

Their destruction extends to gravesites as well (unbelievably enough this has even been rumoured to extend to Mohammad's! (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/saudi-arabias-proposal-to-destroy-prophet-mohammeds-tomb-and-move-remains-to-anonymous-grave-risks-new-muslim-division-30557589.html)).

It is extremely saddening to accept the likelihood that we won't ever have proper continuity of aDNA in the Arabian peninsula due to the Saudi family's cultural autophagy.

Alanson
01-10-2015, 10:09 PM
Indeed, it would likely be very interesting to do analyses of ancient remains from areas like Sena and Mecca because I have the feeling influence flowed both ways until the 6th century. Unfortunately it's not by any means the easiest area in the world to find then extract viable DNA.

I believe Yemenite Jews also have some African mtDNA that is seldom if ever found in non-Yemenite Jews, probably because of the complex ties between Yemen and the Horn of Africa.

Indeed, yes there is minor African mtDNA in Yemenite Jews, which would make sense, because Africa is next door. Indeed I wish in some ways it is. Though I do believe that the Jewish presence in Arabia is quite old. Judaism as whole seemed to have been gaining converts among the Arabians, but this was only by a few tribes, the main center of Judaism seemed Yemen. Also African lineages are not out of the question when the Ethiopians actually conquered Yemen at this time in order to spread Christianity. From what I know the Yemenite Jews seem to show Levantine affinity it could be due to Jewish migrants in Arabia, or just an ancient admix, since Northern Bedouins are in similar position. It's really amazing how Judaism was the state religion of Yemen for years.

Hando
01-11-2015, 04:30 PM
We need to distinguish between TMRCA and age of the lineages. For example, I am pretty sure that the TMRCA of my Jewish cluster in Z251 is probably not more than 1000 years ago because of the very small male Ashkenazi population that existed at that time, but the beginnings of that lineage might be 4,000-5,000 years old when it separated from the rest of S9294 (no doubt in Europe somewhere). Similarly, the TMRCA of the Ashkenazi R2 group (the bigger one anyway) is also maybe 1000 years old, but that lineage likely diverged from a Mizrachi Jewish R2 group a long before that, maybe another 1000 years earlier. In the R2 case, it seems clear that the Ashkenazim originated somewhere in the Middle East because of the F1092 and F1758 SNP evidence (shared by the Ashkenazi group, the Mizrachi group, and a couple of Middle Eastern non-Jews). I think you will find that the majority of current Ashkenazi clusters have similar recent TMRCAs, including R1a1 Levites and R-L2 Taunus lineage guys. This doesn't mean anybody converted recently, it means the pool of Ashkenazi Jews in the Rhineland 1000 years ago wasn't very large.
So are you suggesting the Ashkenazim ancestors were from Europe, since the lineage of Z251 may have begin 5,000 years ago in Europe?

seferhabahir
01-28-2015, 07:32 PM
So are you suggesting the Ashkenazim ancestors were from Europe, since the lineage of Z251 may have begin 5,000 years ago in Europe?

Well, yes if you go back far enough. I am suggesting that the 5000 year ago divergence within Z251 (that EVENTUALLY led to a Middle Ages European ancestor of the Z251 Ashkenazim) happened in Europe. I think there is some broken logic if one thinks it is a long continuous unbroken line of European geography from the time of the Z251 divergence to the time of a Middle Ages common ancestor. Most Rhineland Jews came from somewhere else via all the normal Diaspora migrations. It is probably coincidence that the beginnings of L21 might have happened in the very same location as the Middle Ages Rhineland common ancestor.

As I said in a recent post on another thread, there seems to be this very long 2000-3000 year long gap between the Z251 divergence and the start of proselytizing and conversions in the Roman Empire and Europe. What I don't know and can only guess about is where the precursor lineage of the Z251 Ashkenazim was located and where it may have traveled during that 2000-3000 or longer period. I think it is romantic to think it went to the Middle East, was part of the Israelite population and then came back to exactly where it started via the Diaspora. I only have the two end points - the split off from the rest of Z251 presumably in Europe 5000 years ago, and the probable Rhineland Ashkenazi MRCA of today's living Z251 Ashkenazim presumably in Europe 1000 years ago. That's quite a gap to fill in.

Sorry for the delayed reply...

Longbowman
01-29-2015, 12:12 AM
Quite unlikely, the diaspora halted the conversion process and karaites didn't even accept converts... So there's that. I'd say that conversions gradually stopped with the Tanna'im.

Karaites did initially accept converts, but later stopped. They have recently restarted. The vast majority of Jews (numerically speaking) always accepted converts.

Agamemnon
01-29-2015, 01:47 AM
Karaites did initially accept converts, but later stopped. They have recently restarted. The vast majority of Jews (numerically speaking) always accepted converts.

Not exactly, as I said conversions gradually stopped during Tannaitic times, Karaites in fact had always been far more stringent and closed than rabbinical communities which adopted a lenient approach (as in the case of the offspring of mixed marriages).

Longbowman
01-29-2015, 01:54 AM
Not exactly, as I said conversions gradually stopped during Tannaitic times, Karaites in fact had always been far more stringent and closed than rabbinical communities which adopted a lenient approach (as in the case of the offspring of mixed marriages).

Very true. Regardless, as I said, they did used to accept converts, then stopped, then restarted as of late. I meant nothing more than what I said :)

Or did you mean all conversions?

Táltos
02-02-2015, 10:06 PM
Not exactly, as I said conversions gradually stopped during Tannaitic times, Karaites in fact had always been far more stringent and closed than rabbinical communities which adopted a lenient approach (as in the case of the offspring of mixed marriages).

This is interesting, I have recently read that a Karaite had been "mislabeled" a Karaite in the FTDNA database. But should be properly labeled a Persian Jew. However he is a practicing Karaite. If all of that makes sense guys. Anyway not sure of what the time frame for all of this is when he became a practicing Karaite, but sounds like it is a harder group to be accepted into in?

I've noticed a number of misleading things about this kit too. Like when I've viewed most distant ancestor, and then where they place the marker on the map. I have also seen a gedcom over the internet in the past that has the most distant ancestor not placed in Persia either. That appeared to be put up from the man himself, whereas he does not manage his FTDNA kit. :/

Does anyone have a time frame in the past or present, or a special circumstance of when a person would be accepted to convert into Karaism?

J Man
02-03-2015, 03:33 AM
This book/theory. :rolleyes:

AJL
02-03-2015, 03:41 PM
Does anyone have a time frame in the past or present, or a special circumstance of when a person would be accepted to convert into Karaism?

Not directly, but there's a bit of a history of Karaite marriage customs here:

http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/karaite-women

Interesting that marriages between Karaites and Rabbinic Jews were fairly common until the 13th century, that would probably have ramifications for Ashkenazi autosomal and mtDNA.

Somewhere in the past there was no requirement for women to convert to be Karaites since the religion was seen as purely patrilineal, as it is in the Old Testament. I am not sure how long ago that was. If you can find this in a library, it may be of more help than I am:

http://www.brill.com/karaites-galicia

Schanulleke
10-09-2015, 10:22 AM
This sounds like a theory from a Dan Brown novel.


Actually, I have heard of the Theory...Some American CI use it too...And try to analyse the origin of Europeans from the middle east. For example the tribe of Dan = Danmark, etc..imho just rubbish.