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Kamo
01-04-2015, 05:45 PM
Hello, I'm new here. I recently took the auotsomal test at 23andme and was found to be I1 haplogroup. I have a 67 marker test on the way from FTDNA but haven't received the results as yet. My surname is just about as Irish as one can get(Molloy) so for the past several years in researching family history and leading up to an actual DNA test I fully expected to be within the R1b haplogroup and the subclade specific to descendants of Niall of the 9 Hostages. I joined the Molloy clan project and they have no members outside the 'Niall' haplogroup so this has thrown me a bit of a curve. Thus far I only know of 2 other surnames attached to my Molloy surname within my family history. Reardon and Brady are the other 2. I have spoken to members of those projects and come up empty. No Molloy connections in their groups either. I did not even know nor had I even heard of I1 chiefly because I know next to nothing about ancestral dna or haplogroups other than my previously mentioned awareness of Molloys descending from the Niall group. Now I am even more curious than ever. I suppose the real answer is to wait for the 67 marker test results but I thought I would see if I could find at least some direction for this from those of you with knowledge about it. I also joined the I1 FTDNA project and Mr. Knordvedt has asked me to share my results with him once I receive them. Any responses would be greatly appreciated.

pyromatic
01-04-2015, 06:11 PM
I think the STR test at FTDNA will be more revealing for you, since you'll be able to see who some of your matches are, what their geographical distribution is, etc. By looking at the Malloy/Molloy FTDNA project, I see there are several R1b clades and even some R1a represented there; so being I1 need not imply an NPE and wouldn't be inconsistent with an Irish background if you're paper trail strongly points to Ireland. I'd just advise you wait and see what comes out of the STR test. If you have a bunch of Scandinavian matches, perhaps you descend from a Viking who decided to stay; or if you see many English matches, perhaps an Anglo-Saxon made his way to Ireland.

I haven't seen any analyses of the I1 in Ireland to be honest. Does anyone know the predominant clades?

Kamo
01-04-2015, 06:22 PM
Yes I have seen that I1 and I suppose also R1a is quite low in Ireland(I have seen it listed as around 4-5%). Thus far it has been difficult to find any lengthy relative trail. None of the Irish families with surnames Reardon or Brady have come up with any Molloy connections. I thought maybe our I1 was just a small native Irish haplogroup that was already there(?) What threw me most about it is the fact that I have known Scandinavian lines on my mothers side yet until I received my results from 23andme I hadn't even considered it on my father's side. I forgot to add that 23andme came up with an 'Ancestral Composition' of 75% northern European and British Isles were high percentage in the mix so I took that as meaning that our I1 was likely not from Scandinavian origins though that is just my assumption. The 23andme test only gave me the generic 'I1' with no more specific subclade info. I agree, I will certainly find out more once results are in from the 67 test. All Ken Knordvedt told me thus far is that he is certain the 67 test will confirm the I1. I found 1 other man who lives in Ireland with I1 and we have no known family ties and as of this point he also has no idea where they acquired the I1.

pyromatic
01-06-2015, 01:08 AM
Well, you can have a non-native-Irish ancestor whose contributions to your autosomal DNA are negligible. For the sake of argument, let's say you paternal line descends from a Scandinavian Viking from ~1000 years ago, or ~33 generations assuming a generation time of 30 years. His contribution to your autosome would be on the order of 10E-8%. Even if you were to do some more sophisticated analysis to account for inbreeding and that this man likely fills several roles in your family tree (not a knock at the Irish, this is true of everyone; see, for example, pedigree collapse at wikipedia); his contribution is still essentially 0; so I'm not surprised that you look autosomally like an Irishman if that is where your ancestry hails from.

The 67-marker test will be very revealing - even if you have no close matches.

Kamo
01-06-2015, 01:33 AM
That makes complete sense pyromatic. I only had 2 matches on 23andme but did not quite understand how it worked because neither of them were within my Y haplogroup or mt haplogroup. The only other continental European groups shown in my ancestral composition list were French and German. So, the overall showed 75% Northern European and listed British Isles, French, German. I made the foolish mistake of closing my 23andme account a month after I got my results so I have no data access to transfer to FTDNA at this point.

pyromatic
01-06-2015, 02:42 AM
So 23andme is a SNP-based test. Your matches there are people with whom you share matching segment(s) on one or more chromosomes; so your relationship to them need not be directly through your paternal line, like your matches from FTDNA's STR-based test.

Kamo
01-06-2015, 02:49 AM
I see. I wasn't taking into account the mtdna from 23andme whereas my FTDNA test is only on the paternal line. I will wait for the results. Thank you for your input.

rossa
01-06-2015, 03:09 AM
Keep us posted, is your backround from Donegal by any chance?
I actually match a person with a Donegal backround at 23andme who is I1 (I'm from Donegal myself), and was corresponding with someone else with a Donegal background who is also I1. One name is Gaelic (McHugh) and the other I'd assume to be Welsh (Griffin). The McHugh fella has his info on semargl and his closest y match was an English surname.
Your surname matches will be interesting.
I wonder if I1 could be associated with Gallowglass mercenaries.

Salkin
01-06-2015, 03:12 AM
Your match also needn't be through mtDNA/the maternal line. 23andMe matches on autosomal DNA, the 22 pairs of non-sex chromosomes all humans have, plus the X (or X's, for women). Y-DNA and mtDNA (mitochondrial) are distinct from autosomal, and used at 23andMe only to determine haplogroups and for the medical info, not for matching.

Kamo
01-06-2015, 04:46 AM
All great questions rossa but I as yet have few answers for them. At a website from Ireland regarding Irish ancestry and dna I found this about Molloy-

"Native Irish 4 distinct clans, estimated 4 founding ancestors found, Genetic Homeland - Offaly, Galway/Mayo borderland, Donegal, Wexford and possibly Armagh."

I have had a bit of trouble trying to find familial connections to others with the same surname as well as the other 2 Irish surnames within my family that I am aware of which are Brady and Reardon. I have spoken to a number of people over the net from both of those but without any luck thus far. I spoke with another Molloy from Ireland(spelled Melloy) and he informed there are Molloys who have for a very long time been in Scotland -

"MacGiollaruaidh – Scottish surname Anglicised as McGilroy, Gilroy, Milroy, Milloy, Melroy, Molloy and Melloy. I have been told that the Melloys of Perth in Scotland are part of this family."

rossa I have no known ties to any Molloys in Donegal but this onformation was also provided from the same gentleman -

"O Maolmhaodhog – a Donegal family, also appearing as Mullog, Mulvogue. O Maoildhia – I have come across one person using this name as Gaelic version of Molloy. He also lives in Donegal."


http://www.irishorigenes.com/molloy


http://www.irishorigenes.com/surnames-database/m?search=&page=12

Kamo
01-06-2015, 04:48 AM
Okay I see Salkin. Thank you for the info. I'm quite new at this and learning.

Melcombe
01-25-2015, 07:53 PM
Good luck with your searches.

Dont forget that there's an awful lot of water around NW europe which ancient populations regarded as highways rather than barriers. There was a slave market in viking Dublin from about 840 to 1171 which (I have no reliable reference to pint to as I type this) dealt in slaves os scots origin as well as local 'recruits'.

I have a distant family branch (mainly in Cork) of Anglo-Norman origin settling in the 12th C. There was considerable commercial traffic via Dublin with England and France throughout the 2nd Millenium CE so Irish 'ethnicity' is possibly not a hugely meaningful concept (unless you are looking at sunscreen factors).

My, those I1 bearers were a determined bunch in pressing westward 'though !

Edit : Another possible source? http://www.buildinghistory.org/bristol/saxonslaves.shtml

Kamo
03-22-2015, 04:30 AM
Good luck with your searches.

Dont forget that there's an awful lot of water around NW europe which ancient populations regarded as highways rather than barriers. There was a slave market in viking Dublin from about 840 to 1171 which (I have no reliable reference to pint to as I type this) dealt in slaves os scots origin as well as local 'recruits'.

I have a distant family branch (mainly in Cork) of Anglo-Norman origin settling in the 12th C. There was considerable commercial traffic via Dublin with England and France throughout the 2nd Millenium CE so Irish 'ethnicity' is possibly not a hugely meaningful concept (unless you are looking at sunscreen factors).

My, those I1 bearers were a determined bunch in pressing westward 'though !

Edit : Another possible source? http://www.buildinghistory.org/bristol/saxonslaves.shtml


I haven't been on in awhile. I am still waiting for the 67 marker results freom FTDNA.(waiting since December 2014) They say they are very backlogged. Thank you for the link. I often see I1 being related to the Norse but is it not also likely that the Angles, Saxons or even Jutes may well have had a high level of I1 as well? That would tie in with the link you posted.

Salkin
03-23-2015, 10:18 AM
I haven't been on in awhile. I am still waiting for the 67 marker results freom FTDNA.(waiting since December 2014) They say they are very backlogged. Thank you for the link. I often see I1 being related to the Norse but is it not also likely that the Angles, Saxons or even Jutes may well have had a high level of I1 as well? That would tie in with the link you posted.

Yes, very likely. I1 is often said to be found everywhere that had a Germanic presence.

Kamo
03-25-2015, 02:42 PM
Results came in today. It's early and from what I am learning this will continue to develop. Right now I am just trying to get a handle on what all the info means. Would be nice if someone who understands all these 'SNPs' and 'STRs' that it lists could define what it computes to. "Predicted Haplogroup I-M253" I see the STR panels and Haplotree SNPs. Does that info point to what peoples we picked up the I-M253 from? I have several Irish matches but it appears the majority are in Norway. Next highest is England and then Scotland, then Sweden then Denmark. That's the info on the Ancestral origins page though I don't know what any of it means.

Kamo
03-26-2015, 01:34 PM
Now I am really wondering. I just spoke to an Irish genetic Genaologist this morning and after he reviewed my detailed results he says he was actually surprised at such a large % of Norwegian matches with relatively small Ireland matches and his analysis is that he doesn't really see what he would consider Irish ancestry. It appears to him that somewhere along the line was what he called a "non paternal event". I assume that esssentially means illegitimate birth, adoption etc wherein the child was given a surname unrelated to the actual father of the child at the head of my paternal line. Yess, there are a very large number of matches particularly from Norway, to my eyes a there are still a good number of matches in the British Isles with Shetland, Isle of Man being listed as well. Not sure what to make of all this now. My original intent was to search out familial ancestry and since I have a stereotypically Irish last name, I was searching out Ireland. But other than 1 other man named Peter Richard Molloy, there are no other Molloys of variouss spellings in any of the Irish or Molloy dna projects with anything other than R1b-M222 ydna. Peter Richard Molloy I believe ios listed as residing in Scotland. Where to turn next......

Agamemnon
03-26-2015, 01:47 PM
Have you joined the I1 FTDNA project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_I1) yet? Going off your 67 marker results they'll be able to indicate which subclade you're likely to carry, therefore allowing you to select individual SNPs for further testing. This would prove far more useful in uncovering your paternal origins.

Kamo
03-26-2015, 04:33 PM
Yes, I had joined it several months ago and corresponded with a Ken Nordtvedt. He asked that I allow him to view my results once they come in. I emailed him yesterday letting him know the results came in and am awaiting his reply. You mentioned the 67 marker results and those are the ones the other genetic geneaologist said made him think I have little Irish ancestry. My autosomal results from 23andme however showed highest % in Scandinavian but it still also listed 'British Isles' as next highest with small percentages listed as 'France' and 'Germany'. Not sure what he actually was looking at that lead him to believe my ancestry is something other than Irish(?) Seems to me "British Isles" could also apply to Ireland no?

Kamo
03-27-2015, 04:11 AM
I was informed tonight after my results were looked at that I fall into a category called "Ultra Norse" clade L813+ That is a very big surprise to me and I did not expect that. I had never heard of that designation before.

pyromatic
03-27-2015, 12:20 PM
Where do your matches lie geographically? L813 is strongly Norwegian and also found where they went; so Viking ancestry is among the possible explanations.

Jean M
03-27-2015, 01:37 PM
I was informed tonight after my results were looked at that I fall into a category called "Ultra Norse" clade L813+ That is a very big surprise to me and I did not expect that. I had never heard of that designation before.

This is very interesting. An attempt to find the genetic legacy of the Vikings in Ireland previously failed to make much of a case. The paper in question is so old, it is hard to make out which Y-DNA haplogroups they found exactly:

Brian McEvoy, Claire Brady, Laoise T Moore and Daniel G Bradley, The scale and nature of Viking settlement in Ireland from Y-chromosome admixture analysis, European Journal of Human Genetics (2006) 14, 1288–1294: http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v14/n12/full/5201709a.html

However recent archaeological work in Dublin is revealing the extent of the Viking settlement there, and isotope studies of some early Viking burials there revealed Scandinavian immigrants. See Montgomery, J. et al. 2014. Finding Vikings with isotope analysis: the view from wet and windy islands, Journal of the North Atlantic, 7 (sp7), 54-70. http://www.eaglehill.us/JONAonline/articles/JONA-Sp-7/14-Montgomery.shtml

Viking Ireland at the National Museum of Ireland: http://www.museum.ie/en/exhibition/viking-ireland.aspx

The Viking arrival was no mirage and it will have left genetic traces. This is the project to watch, because it is doing ancient DNA analysis: Population Genomics of Vikings: http://geogenetics.ku.dk/research_groups/willerslev/viking-dna/

Agamemnon
03-27-2015, 01:57 PM
I was informed tonight after my results were looked at that I fall into a category called "Ultra Norse" clade L813+ That is a very big surprise to me and I did not expect that. I had never heard of that designation before.

Considering the fact that L813 is a subclade of I1's Northern branch (CTS6364) and that it reaches its highest frequencies in Southern Scandinavia (while its distribution in the British Isles fits with the pattern we'd expect for Viking settlement), I'd say that Norse ancestry is extremely likely.
You mentionned matches from the Isle of Man, I find that interesting since I can trace my ancestry back to King Orry of the Isle of Man. In other words, I'm ready to bet you have a few Norse-Gaels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse%E2%80%93Gaels) in your family tree.

Grossvater
03-27-2015, 02:37 PM
Thanks for sharing your results, Kamo. I was quite intrigued because two of my family lines are probably I1. The Arthurs came to America from Cullybacky, County Antrim having moved to Ireland from Perth, Scotland in the 1600s. My McConnell ancestors emigrated from Londonderry. I have a cousin whose surname is Gordon, whose ancestor emigrated to America from Londonderry who is also an I1.

Kamo
03-27-2015, 03:48 PM
Most of my matches are in Norway. Other areas include Waterford Ireland and Norherrn Ireland, Shetland, Large number in Scotland and England as well, Brittany, Sweden.

Kamo
03-27-2015, 03:57 PM
That is essentially what Ken Nordtvedt said after looking over my results Aberdeen. All the way through from 12-67 markers at all distances Norway is the highest number of matches.

rossa
03-27-2015, 03:58 PM
How distant are they, and what areas have the closest matches? Waterford was a Viking settlement, I always wondered if the Gallowglasses left a detectable trace. I wonder if the Northern Ireland matched might reflect this.

Kamo
03-27-2015, 04:09 PM
On the match map in Ireland there are matches in Londonderry, Sligo, Larne, Limavady and most matches dotted around Waterford and Dublin. Lots of men with names ending in "Mac" just as in Scotland. The matches from 12-67 at all distances remain in those same areas.

Kamo
03-27-2015, 04:11 PM
I did not initially see your post Jean M. Thank you for the links.

Kamo
03-27-2015, 10:47 PM
While reading the links you provided Jean, I did a search on the towns in Ireland I was listed as having matches. Sligo was one of the towns -

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/sligochampion/lifestyle/vikings-had-a-much-bigger-presence-in-sligo-than-had-been-first-thought-27568729.html

Jean M
03-27-2015, 11:03 PM
While reading the links you provided Jean, I did a search on the towns in Ireland I was listed as having matches. Sligo was one of the towns

Wow! Sligo had a Viking cemetery with more than 200 Viking remains! We don't generally think of Vikings in western Ireland.

Kamo
03-27-2015, 11:15 PM
I know little about Vikings in Ireland other than the usual areas mentioned like Waterford and Dublin. While those 2 areas are where the majority of my matches in Ireland are, I always look for areas that are close to inlets or waterways connected to the Irish sea or the sea in other locations. Larne was the other town with several matches.

Kamo
03-29-2015, 03:41 AM
This certainly fits my I1-L813+ coupled to my Irish surname:

I found and have been reading a very old Irish annals book called Cogad Gáedel re Gallaib(The War of the Gaedhil with the Gaill) or "War of the Irish Against the Foreigners"
My family name, Molloy is mentioned in the book. A Molloy was apparently an Irish chieftain but he allied himself to the Norsemen against Brian Boru, his older brother Mathgamhain and the other allied Irish chieftains. Here is a short snippet along with a footnote:


"Some of the chieftains who resisted this movement, and declared themselves in favour of the Dal-Cais, were put to death' by Ivar and his followers (chap. 1.) ; but Maolmuadh[pron. Molloy], son of Bran, king of Desmond, and Donnabhan [pron. Donovan], son of Cathal, king of Ui Cairbhri, were amongst the most zealous enemies of Mathgamhain, and united their forces to those of Ivar. They were actuated, our author adds, not so much by any favour to the cause of the foreigners as by hatred and jealousy towards the Dal-Cais."


Footnote:
King of Desmumhain. Ri Muman,
B., " king of Munster," a mistake.
Maolmuad,, or Molloy, son of Bran, was
king or lord of Desmumhain, (south
Munster, now Desmond).


I also found this wikipedia article linked from another on the Norse leader Ivar of Limerick. In the article under Tyrant of Mumam, I caught the old Irish spelling of my family name Máel Muad or Maolmuadh = Molloy.

"What is peculiar about this passage is the extent of cooperation between the Gaelic kings. Here the sworn rivals Mathgamain and Máel Muad (the son of Bran) are actually found working together, the only known occasion in their careers. They are joined by one Faelán of uncertain identity, whose mention may either refer to a king of the Déisi Muman who actually died in 966,[13] and who the Cogad alleges Ivar actually killed,[14] or to an abbot of Emly later mentioned dying in 980.[15] Notably Emly was attacked by Ivar or his relations in 968 not long after the Norse loss in the Battle of Sulcoit in 967,[16] and possibly in retaliation for the Dál gCais plundering of Limerick.[17]"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivar_of_Limerick

CorkSmith
03-31-2015, 08:50 PM
Hello, I'm new here. I recently took the auotsomal test at 23andme and was found to be I1 haplogroup. I have a 67 marker test on the way from FTDNA but haven't received the results as yet. My surname is just about as Irish as one can get(Molloy) so for the past several years in researching family history and leading up to an actual DNA test I fully expected to be within the R1b haplogroup and the subclade specific to descendants of Niall of the 9 Hostages. I joined the Molloy clan project and they have no members outside the 'Niall' haplogroup so this has thrown me a bit of a curve.

I am in the same boat. My GG-grandfather was an Irish immigrant but I came up as P109. That's just based on 23andme data but I just ordered a Y market test from FTDNA. I am curious to see what subgroup within P109 I may fall under.

Kamo
04-01-2015, 12:38 AM
I began it merely out of curiousity coupled to wanting to research my familial roots. It was surprising to find out my actual Ydna wasn't what I thought. I have matches in a few other places but most are crammed into Norway and Denmark. The funny thing is I fully expected that from my mother's side because my uncle tested as R1a and that side of my family is German and Danish. I never expected to find that on my paternal side. The whole thing is very fascinating.

Kamo
08-27-2015, 09:40 PM
Haven't been on in a while and haven't had a lot of time to research this until lately. Matches have been pouring in hot and heavy for the past few months and names like Macdonald and Macneil in Scotland coming up quite a lot as well. When I began this I did not give a lot of consideration to where matches were located in terms of ancestral relation due to how long ago we are talking but after doing some reading it appears that dna traces left by migrations and settlements long ago can still generally be found in the areas they went to which is amazing to me. I suppose it could be said that even 1000+ years is not long ago in terms of human history so unless a total displacement of a population takes place, their dna is still found in both their original habitations as well as where large numbers of them tavelled. The 2 surnames I mentioned aren't the only ones but have been related to Viking ancestry in Scotland, Orkney, Shetland, Hebrides, Caithness et al Macdonald and Macneil are mentioned as tied in with Norse and Norse/Gael ancestry chiefly from a period of rule known as the "Kingdom of the Isles". When looking at my match maps it is difficult not to notice that my matches in Ireland and Scotland fall in all of those areas. Related areas in Ireland where I have matches include Waterford, Wexford, Cork, Limerick, Dublin, Londonderry and Larne. My oldest ancestor I know of a b-date for is 1795 and he was born in what used to be called County Kings(Offaly). Others were born in Dublin, Cork and Waterford. I know the names of the mother and father of the ancestor born in 1795 but it does not list their b-dates or where they were born. The earlier descendency(if that is a word) is pretty obviously people of Norse background ethnically. That being the case, it looks like my ancestors on my father's side were Norse-Gaels. In all of the matches I have found, there has been one exact match with the exact same surname, spelling and all. He lives in New Zealand but says he was told his family in Ireland on one side came from Tullamore and Dublin. I was able to correspond with him via email once but he at some point stopped responding which was a disappointment. The majority of my matches are in Norway, Southern Sweden and Uppsala area and western Finland with last names like Andersson, Magnusson, Olsen, Bjareng, Thorson, Johansson, Johnsson, Nielson etc just to name a few. Also a smaller number in Denmark.

cleerje
07-31-2017, 01:25 AM
I thought I would resurrect this two year old thread. I recently tested with 23andMe and was surprised to find out that my Y-DNA Haplogroup is I-M253, which is usually indicative of Scandinavian ancestry. I ran my results through Gedmatch, and came up with a lot of West Norwegian, Norwegian, and Orcadian. My last name, Cleere, is Irish with a heavy concentration in Kilkenny. My autosomal admixture is 69% British and Irish. So I too was expecting something like R1b-L21. I have a 37 marker Y-DNA test with FTDNA that is still in process. I should not have been all that surprised at the results. The Norse settled in the Shetlands, Orkney, western Scotland, the Isle of Man, and the eastern and southeastern coast of Ireland. The Irish called them Ostmen or Men from the East. When the Normans under Strongbow invaded Ireland in 1170-71, the native Irish and the Ostmen fought together against them. I am also curious to see if I have Norman ancestry because my last name is supposed to be Norman. Gedmatch also showed a lot of French ancestry.

C J Wyatt III
07-31-2017, 01:54 AM
I thought I would resurrect this two year old thread. I recently tested with 23andMe and was surprised to find out that my Y-DNA Haplogroup is I-M253, which is usually indicative of Scandinavian ancestry. I ran my results through Gedmatch, and came up with a lot of West Norwegian, Norwegian, and Orcadian. My last name, Cleere, is Irish with a heavy concentration in Kilkenny. My autosomal admixture is 69% British and Irish. So I too was expecting something like R1b-L21. I have a 37 marker Y-DNA test with FTDNA that is still in process. I should not have been all that surprised at the results. The Norse settled in the Shetlands, Orkney, western Scotland, the Isle of Man, and the eastern and southeastern coast of Ireland. The Irish called them Ostmen or Men from the East. When the Normans under Strongbow invaded Ireland in 1170-71, the native Irish and the Ostmen fought together against them. I am also curious to see if I have Norman ancestry because my last name is supposed to be Norman. Gedmatch also showed a lot of French ancestry.

So your 37-marker results are pending? I'd have patience and just see what you get before devoting a lot of time to speculation.

Jack (I-Z382)

spruithean
07-31-2017, 03:03 AM
I thought I would resurrect this two year old thread. I recently tested with 23andMe and was surprised to find out that my Y-DNA Haplogroup is I-M253, which is usually indicative of Scandinavian ancestry. I ran my results through Gedmatch, and came up with a lot of West Norwegian, Norwegian, and Orcadian. My last name, Cleere, is Irish with a heavy concentration in Kilkenny. My autosomal admixture is 69% British and Irish. So I too was expecting something like R1b-L21. I have a 37 marker Y-DNA test with FTDNA that is still in process. I should not have been all that surprised at the results. The Norse settled in the Shetlands, Orkney, western Scotland, the Isle of Man, and the eastern and southeastern coast of Ireland. The Irish called them Ostmen or Men from the East. When the Normans under Strongbow invaded Ireland in 1170-71, the native Irish and the Ostmen fought together against them. I am also curious to see if I have Norman ancestry because my last name is supposed to be Norman. Gedmatch also showed a lot of French ancestry.

I would definitely agree with Jack on this. Just wait it out and see what happens. I-M253 is fairly high up on the genetic tree of I-M253.

The surname Cleere could be an anglicisation of Ó Cléirigh or Mac Cléirigh. I know Ó Cléirigh had ties to Galway and not so much Kilkenny (Leinster).

I-M253 is definitely a surprise when your documented genealogy is strongly Irish or Scottish. You expect some flavour or R-L21 lol. I know I expected to be some form of R.

cleerje
07-31-2017, 04:33 AM
I would definitely agree with Jack on this. Just wait it out and see what happens. I-M253 is fairly high up on the genetic tree of I-M253.

The surname Cleere could be an anglicisation of Ó Cléirigh or Mac Cléirigh. I know Ó Cléirigh had ties to Galway and not so much Kilkenny (Leinster).

I-M253 is definitely a surprise when your documented genealogy is strongly Irish or Scottish. You expect some flavour or R-L21 lol. I know I expected to be some form of R.

There are many derivations of the name Cleere. I like to joke about it and tell people that my ancestors couldn't spell. I've seen it spelled Clear, Cleare, Cleer, MacCleere, Clary, Cleery, Clere, Saint Cleere, and Clare. According to a surname dictionary, the Gaelic form of the name is de Cleir.

As for waiting on the 37 marker test by FamilyTree DNA, you are quite right. Speculation can lead to madness.

Surfacing
07-31-2017, 05:36 AM
You'll most likely be one of the western branches. Considering your heritage is Northwest European it's easier to narrow down the possibilities of who your distant ancestor might be or which "tribe" or population might've belonged to. Most likely some kind of Viking or Anglo-Saxon right?
Me being from the Eastern parts makes it a bit more elusive to figure it out.

Btw. nice avatar, I'm a fan of MotoGP racing one of my favorite things to watch. Whoever that is doesn't look like anyone from MotoGP, maybe Superbike?

J1 DYS388=13
07-31-2017, 06:51 AM
I know of an Irish line with an English surname which is I-M253. Maybe your surname was originally Clear or something else English. Or Anglo-Norman.

spruithean
07-31-2017, 04:17 PM
I know of an Irish line with an English surname which is I-M253. Maybe your surname was originally Clear or something else English. Or Anglo-Norman.

^Also something to consider.

Given Ireland saw a fair amount of anglicisation of names we can never be too sure. The Anglo-Normans had a fairly notable presence as did later arrivals in the plantation era.

Interestingly some Norman families in Ireland became "more Irish than the Irish themselves" adopting Gaelic culture and language and intermarrying with Gaelic kindreds. The House of Burke is one such Norman family I can think of.

cleerje
07-31-2017, 07:40 PM
You'll most likely be one of the western branches. Considering your heritage is Northwest European it's easier to narrow down the possibilities of who your distant ancestor might be or which "tribe" or population might've belonged to. Most likely some kind of Viking or Anglo-Saxon right?
Me being from the Eastern parts makes it a bit more elusive to figure it out.

Btw. nice avatar, I'm a fan of MotoGP racing one of my favorite things to watch. Whoever that is doesn't look like anyone from MotoGP, maybe Superbike?

That was a stock photo from a track day. I've been a fan of motorcycle roadracing since the 1980's. My brother used to race in WERA. As a teenager, I was his pit-crew.

cleerje
08-01-2017, 10:32 PM
Well, I received my 37 marker Y-DNA results yesterday and the results were the same as 23andme: I-M253. I was under the mistaken impression that FTDNA would provide more than that. So I forked over $99.00 for the I-M253 SNP pack. The STR analysis showed that I have 126 matches in England, 54 in Sweden, 46 in Germany, 26 in the United Kingdom, 25 in the United States, 18 in Scotland, 17 in Norway, 17 in Ireland, 15 in Finland, 7 in the Netherlands, 6 Native American, 6 in France, 6 in Denmark, 5 in Wales, 4 in Austria, 4 in Belgium, 3 in Northern Ireland, 4 in Switzerland, 3 in Ukraine, 5 in Russia, and 2 in Hungary. So it looks like my hypothesis regarding paternal Irish ancestry is mistaken. It looks to me more like English by way of Germany and Sweden.

spruithean
08-01-2017, 10:49 PM
Well, I received my 37 marker Y-DNA results yesterday and the results were the same as 23andme: I-M253. I was under the mistaken impression that FTDNA would provide more than that. So I forked over $99.00 for the I-M253 SNP pack. The STR analysis showed that I have 126 matches in England, 54 in Sweden, 46 in Germany, 26 in the United Kingdom, 25 in the United States, 18 in Scotland, 17 in Norway, 17 in Ireland, 15 in Finland, 7 in the Netherlands, 6 Native American, 6 in France, 6 in Denmark, 5 in Wales, 4 in Austria, 4 in Belgium, 3 in Northern Ireland, 4 in Switzerland, 3 in Ukraine, 5 in Russia, and 2 in Hungary. So it looks like my hypothesis regarding paternal Irish ancestry is mistaken. It looks to me more like English by way of Germany and Sweden.

Well, those matches and their counts are sourced through FTDNA's database. The database is heavily biased toward the British Isles (notably England, which is part of the United Kingdom). You can't determine ones Y-ancestor this way. The only way you can determine if your ancestor was Irish or English is through paper trail genealogy. Y-DNA haplogroups, especially I-M253 and its early downstream SNPs predate today's modern nationalities and ethnic groups. How one sees their ethnicity is dependent on much more than genetics.

I would look for close matches among people who share your surname.

cleerje
08-01-2017, 11:55 PM
I was afraid someone would tell me that. My paper trail stops in Virginia in 1735 with George Emmet Cleere. So far no-one has succeeded in picking up the link across the Atlantic Ocean.

spruithean
08-01-2017, 11:58 PM
Do you have any close matches? Do any share your surname or variants? I'd bet your paternal line is from the Isles. Are there other Cleere families in Virginia in George's era?

cleerje
08-02-2017, 01:04 AM
I'm sure they're from the Isles too. My aunt and cousin worked on the paper trail for years and got it pretty nailed down in the United States. The matches from FTDNA include Swedes, Germans, English, and Dutch. There are no matches using the name Cleere in FTDNA's database. There is another Cleere but he has Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b1a2. I did find the name Alexander Cleere in James City, Virginia in 1700 in Ancestry.com's database. He signed as a witness to the arrival of 205 Huguenots in James City, Virginia.

JMcB
08-02-2017, 03:45 AM
Well, I received my 37 marker Y-DNA results yesterday and the results were the same as 23andme: I-M253. I was under the mistaken impression that FTDNA would provide more than that. So I forked over $99.00 for the I-M253 SNP pack. The STR analysis showed that I have 126 matches in England, 54 in Sweden, 46 in Germany, 26 in the United Kingdom, 25 in the United States, 18 in Scotland, 17 in Norway, 17 in Ireland, 15 in Finland, 7 in the Netherlands, 6 Native American, 6 in France, 6 in Denmark, 5 in Wales, 4 in Austria, 4 in Belgium, 3 in Northern Ireland, 4 in Switzerland, 3 in Ukraine, 5 in Russia, and 2 in Hungary. So it looks like my hypothesis regarding paternal Irish ancestry is mistaken. It looks to me more like English by way of Germany and Sweden.

Hello cleerje,

May I suggest that you join FTDNA's I1 Haplogroup Project, it may help you to determine whether your I-M253 is of Nordic (possibly Viking) or Anglo Saxon origins. The Administrators should be able to group you by your STR results, which should give you something to consider until your SNP pack comes in. It's free and can be done easily by hitting the Projects tab on the top of your FTDNA homepage.

Another thing you might try doing, is going to the "Haplogroup Origins" tab on your results page and checking to see what SNP results your close matches have. For example: I-Z140 or I-F2642 or I-L22, etc. This may also point you in one direction or the other.

None of this will help you with your more recent origins - your ancestral surnames may be better in that regard - but it may give you some indicators concerning your ancient ancestry and, if your so inclined, it'll give you something to do in the meantime.


If you haven't already seen it, this may also be of interest:

Haplogroup I1 (Y-DNA)

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

Sassoneg
09-07-2017, 06:17 PM
If you think you might have Norman roots but have Scandinavian YDNA - you might be correct on both counts.

The Normans (Nor Men - North Men) were given Normandy to settle after harassing Paris too often. These men would have been carrying traditional Viking YDNA. There was recently a Normandy project where they said over half the men had Viking YDNA.

The reason you won't have "matches" is because DNA testing is illegal in France.

Kamo
09-24-2017, 03:43 PM
If you think you might have Norman roots but have Scandinavian YDNA - you might be correct on both counts.

The Normans (Nor Men - North Men) were given Normandy to settle after harassing Paris too often. These men would have been carrying traditional Viking YDNA. There was recently a Normandy project where they said over half the men had Viking YDNA.

The reason you won't have "matches" is because DNA testing is illegal in France.

I have not been on the site in some time. I did not know that. I have matches in France however so not sure how they tested if it is illegal. Most of my matches in France are in Normandy.

Dubhthach
09-25-2017, 10:55 AM
I would definitely agree with Jack on this. Just wait it out and see what happens. I-M253 is fairly high up on the genetic tree of I-M253.

The surname Cleere could be an anglicisation of Ó Cléirigh or Mac Cléirigh. I know Ó Cléirigh had ties to Galway and not so much Kilkenny (Leinster).

I-M253 is definitely a surprise when your documented genealogy is strongly Irish or Scottish. You expect some flavour or R-L21 lol. I know I expected to be some form of R.

Woulfe has the following in his 1923 book:

de CLÉIR—XI—de Clere, Cleere, Clear; Norman 'de Clere,' from some spot perhaps in Normandy; the name of an old Anglo-Norman family in Co. Wexford and other parts of the south-east of Ireland.

Given the origin in Kilkenny, I imagine you are indeed looking at an example of Hiberno-Norman surname. In the 1901 census there was a total of 90 Cleere's in Ireland, 69 of whom lived in Kilkenny. I will admit I hadn't actually heard of it as a distinct surname and thought when I first saw it that it might be variation on Cleary, of course it's also possible that there are people today bearing surname Cleary who are actually Cleere/Cleare.

Either way I would say it's a good solid Irish surname in this day and age kinda like Walsh in that regard

Bollox79
09-25-2017, 11:06 AM
^Also something to consider.

Given Ireland saw a fair amount of anglicisation of names we can never be too sure. The Anglo-Normans had a fairly notable presence as did later arrivals in the plantation era.

Interestingly some Norman families in Ireland became "more Irish than the Irish themselves" adopting Gaelic culture and language and intermarrying with Gaelic kindreds. The House of Burke is one such Norman family I can think of.

Considering Gaelic-Norman families in Ireland... My Grandfather was very likely (based on family tradition and paper trail up to point before it disappears, naming patterns for both men and women, and most importantly allied families showing up in 4th-5th cousin Irish ancestry!) a direct descendant of the Chieftains of the O'Duibhirs of Kilnamanagh in Tipperary. One thing that shows up autosomally is that one of my 4th-5th cousins from New South Wales is a direct descendant of Michael Dwyer - the Wicklow Chief - and famous rebel... they live in the same area where Michael and his relatives "settled" in NSW. Now for the Gaelic-Norman bit: O'Dwyer Chiefs, according to documented paper trail before the Rebellions of the 1600s, married Bulter women very often. The Butlers of Ormond are a good example of a Norman turned "very Irish" family as they often allied/married with the O'Dwyers and fought on the native side. I still get random matches with Irish ancestry with Butler showing up in several people as 4th-5th cousin level genetically ;-). Many times that is the only connection I can figure out with them, other than just having Irish ancestry. With those matches that tends to come from the SW of Ireland!

Ahh the bit on the naming patterns: The last Chief was a Philip O'Dwyer, and one of the Butler woman an O'Dwyer Chief was named Leonara. Both names are found in my 3rd GGP level: Philip O'Dwyer - 3rd GGF and Leonara - 3rd GGM ;-). Additional question: Was Leonara a Butler? :-). Philip was a popular name... as my Grandfather was Philip O'Dwyer thus making Mom an O'Dwyer!

P.S. love the history of Ireland if you couldn't tell ;-).

Cheers!

JerryS.
09-25-2017, 12:30 PM
fear not about your Irish heritage. even in Sicily there are about 5% to 8% I1. Those Vikings got around.

spruithean
10-02-2017, 05:53 PM
fear not about your Irish heritage. even in Sicily there are about 5% to 8% I1. Those Vikings got around.

The Germanic tribes certainly got around throughout Europe, including the Vikings.

Pascal C
10-13-2017, 01:05 PM
Kamo, I don't think you'll ever pin it down. All you can do is play the percentages and then there still are questions. Dubtac's suggestion seems the most likely, but then are you part of the De Clere family or a follower, who later adopted the name, from where ever the De Clere's came from. If say they were from Pembroke like most then the I1 could be Norman, Flemish, English or even from Bretons (from Scandinavian settlement) or other areas. Even if it was from Norman, is it Scandinavian or other German settlers like Frankish or the Anglo Saxon that settled there? Then there's also the chance it was a local of Scandinavian descent, farming the De Clere lands, that adopted the name. All you can really do is speculate.

Edit: Not that I mean to rain on your parade but unless you have Alister Moffatt's crystal ball, you're in the same camp as most as far as refining who, what and where.

cleerje
10-17-2017, 03:02 AM
I went on NevGen and punched in the numbers and got: I1 Z58>Z59>Y12342 at .59; I1 Z58>Z59>Z382>S26361 at .45; I1 P109>Y15520 at .35. I then looked up the numbers in FTDNA's SNP map. I could not find Y12342, but I did find S26361 and four hits in England, 1 in Scotland, 1 in the Netherlands, 1 in Denmark, and 1 in Sweden. Y15520 had only two hits, one in the Netherlands and one in Ireland. I have also gone on gedmatch with my autosomal dna and the results were something like Western Norway, South and Central Sweden, Denmark, England, Cornwall, Ireland, Scotland, Orcadia, Germany, Netherlands, and France. I also had some admixture from northern Spain. As for my SNP Pack from FTDNA, I am still waiting.

kujira692
12-20-2017, 05:29 PM
Hi everyone!

This thread seems to be exactly what I'm looking for *haha*

So as best as I know my father's paternal lineage to a few generations back is likely Irish with the last name McBride (likely from Tipperary area). His Y-DNA has tested out so far as being I1-Z59, and on his Ancestral Origins page at FTDNA the top percentages of where matches' ancestry hails from is:

12 Marker Genetic Distance -1
1.3% Sweden
1.1% Estonia
0.5% Bosnia and Herezgovinia
0.3% Denmark
0.2% Norway
...
...
0.1% Ireland

Would this be indicative of some sort of Anglo-Saxon or similar Germanic origin and not Irish?

Thanks for any assistance!

JMcB
12-30-2017, 05:30 PM
Hi everyone!

This thread seems to be exactly what I'm looking for *haha*

So as best as I know my father's paternal lineage to a few generations back is likely Irish with the last name McBride (likely from Tipperary area). His Y-DNA has tested out so far as being I1-Z59, and on his Ancestral Origins page at FTDNA the top percentages of where matches' ancestry hails from is:

12 Marker Genetic Distance -1
1.3% Sweden
1.1% Estonia
0.5% Bosnia and Herezgovinia
0.3% Denmark
0.2% Norway
...
...
0.1% Ireland

Would this be indicative of some sort of Anglo-Saxon or similar Germanic origin and not Irish?

Thanks for any assistance!

Hello kujira,

According to Eupedia I-Z59 is the main branch of I-Z58 which is primarily West Germanic in origins.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml#STRs

Do you have any more information on your designation as I-Z59, how did that come about? Did you learn that from a SNP pack at FTDNA? Also, would you mind telling me if your first three STR markers are: 14 22 14 because approximately 3/4 of the I-M253 McBrides in the McBride Surname Project have those markers, which means they’re all I1-Z140. So there’s a good chance your father might be, too. You can find your STR results on your FTDNA page.

Regards,
JMcB

P.S. as you may have guessed, I am also a McBryde.

JerryS.
12-31-2017, 01:22 AM
your Y and your father's Y and so on does not show what the maternal lines had in it. while your father's Y line looks German, his X line could very much be Irish.

kujira692
12-31-2017, 05:19 PM
Thanks for the replies!

The first three values (393, 390, and 19) are: 13, 22, 15.

I had him tested through Ancestry back in the day which gave I1, and then FTDNA which also gave I1 and have tested a few packs to get it narrowed to Z59. (I also transferred his Autosomal results to WeGene which gave him the designation of Z60)

Sassoneg
12-31-2017, 09:06 PM
I analyzed the Ancestry file for a friend who is the son of only Irish immigrants from western and southern Ireland pre 1851. He and his son were Z63 but his autosomal results were 95% Irish so Z63 was picked up enough generations to lose all autosomal components from the Z63 donor.

spruithean
12-31-2017, 09:17 PM
I analyzed the Ancestry file for a friend who is the son of only Irish immigrants from western and southern Ireland pre 1851. He and his son were Z63 but his autosomal results were 95% Irish so Z63 was picked up enough generations to lose all autosomal components from the Z63 donor.

I would assume that is the case for a large number of people in the M253 group with roots outside of the typical historical Germanic influence sphere. A Y-chromosome seemingly originating from a Germanic individual but autosomal DNA belonging to a different group of people.

It makes me wonder about the the similarities between the early Anglo-Saxons in Britain and the later Scandinavians in Britain, would the two groups of relatively similar autosomal results or had the Anglo-Saxons picked up more British Isles autosomal ancestry?

12-31-2017, 09:30 PM
Reading the comments above, i think the same can be applied to R1a, or more specifically in my case R1a-Z283, ftdna matches almost entirely to the Irish Branch of the Eustice family originating in Southern Ireland.
autosumonally im pretty much UK and Ireland.

JMcB
01-01-2018, 05:52 PM
Hello Kujira,

Well it doesn’t looks like your father is in the Z140 14/22 complex, so you may want to try joining the I1a YDNA Haplogroup Project at FTDNA and then see where the Administrators place you. That’ll give you a better idea of where he stands on the I1a SNP tree. It’s a free service provided by FTDNA, that you can find under their Projects listing at the top of your FT homepage.

I think it’s pretty safe to say, that your paternal ancestors probably arrived in the British Isles many centuries ago and that most of their Scandinavian & Germanic DNA has been subsumed by their descendants intermarrying with the local indigenous population. Which in your case, were the Irish. As another McBryde who is also I-M253, I can tell you that my autosomal tests have confirmed that my ancestry is primarily, English, Scottish & Irish (88 %) with the rest being the Italian and German I inherited from my Grandfather. So I would imagine that your father’s will also reflect his own Irish background.

cleerje
07-24-2018, 07:42 PM
I thought I would share my results from Gedmatch admixture (autosomal). It does look like my line of descent might lead back to Ireland, England, France, Denmark, Northern Germany, Norway, and Sweden. In other words those of you who mentioned the possibility of Hiberno-Norman ancestry may be correct. However, I am not sure how to interpret this information in order for it to make sense.

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Kit M580547

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 48.35
2 Baltic 22.42
3 West_Med 18.33
4 East_Med 3.97
5 West_Asian 2.56
6 South_Asian 2.5
7 Amerindian 0.73
8 Sub-Saharan 0.48
9 Red_Sea 0.4
10 Oceanian 0.25

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southeast_English 5.04
2 Southwest_English 5.2
3 South_Dutch 6.11
4 Orcadian 6.7
5 Irish 7.7
6 West_Scottish 7.76
7 West_German 7.9
8 North_Dutch 8.45
9 Danish 8.67
10 French 9.28
11 North_German 9.46
12 Norwegian 10.42
13 Swedish 11.84
14 Austrian 13.49
15 East_German 13.89
16 Spanish_Cataluna 15.2
17 Southwest_French 15.32
18 Spanish_Cantabria 16.13
19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 16.38
20 Spanish_Galicia 16.48

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 70.8% Orcadian + 29.2% Southwest_French @ 2.49
2 59.9% Norwegian + 40.1% Southwest_French @ 2.57
3 64.6% Danish + 35.4% Southwest_French @ 2.6
4 87.9% Orcadian + 12.1% Sardinian @ 2.73
5 65.4% North_Dutch + 34.6% Southwest_French @ 2.84
6 78.4% Southeast_English + 21.6% Southwest_French @ 2.85
7 72.4% Orcadian + 27.6% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.85
8 61.3% Norwegian + 38.7% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.87
9 70.8% North_German + 29.2% French_Basque @ 2.95
10 67.9% Irish + 32.1% Southwest_French @ 3.03
11 65.5% Swedish + 34.5% French_Basque @ 3.06
12 64.6% Norwegian + 35.4% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.19
13 61.3% Swedish + 38.7% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.2
14 66.2% Danish + 33.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.2
15 68% West_Scottish + 32% Southwest_French @ 3.21
16 86.3% West_Scottish + 13.7% Sardinian @ 3.21
17 80.3% Southeast_English + 19.7% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.21
18 92% Southeast_English + 8% Sardinian @ 3.24
19 73% Danish + 27% French_Basque @ 3.24
20 91.7% Southwest_English + 8.3% Sardinian @ 3.26


Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 48.35
2 Baltic 22.42
3 West_Med 18.33
4 East_Med 3.97
5 West_Asian 2.56
6 South_Asian 2.50


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Southeast_English @ 5.629829
2 Southwest_English @ 5.868410
3 South_Dutch @ 6.971352
4 Orcadian @ 7.499075
5 Irish @ 8.709702
6 West_Scottish @ 8.764776
7 West_German @ 9.064750
8 North_Dutch @ 9.446683
9 Danish @ 9.673527
10 North_German @ 10.605563
11 French @ 10.639712
12 Norwegian @ 11.674913
13 Swedish @ 13.253043
14 Austrian @ 15.444828
15 East_German @ 15.851196
16 Southwest_French @ 17.195410
17 Spanish_Cataluna @ 17.304214
18 Spanish_Cantabria @ 18.177526
19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 18.554085
20 Spanish_Galicia @ 18.670477

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Norwegian +50% Southwest_French @ 4.006787


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Danish +25% East_German +25% French_Basque @ 2.562142


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++
1 Danish + East_German + French_Basque + Orcadian @ 2.350403
2 French_Basque + North_Swedish + South_Dutch + Southeast_English @ 2.359570
3 Danish + East_German + French_Basque + West_Scottish @ 2.384250
4 Danish + East_German + French_Basque + Southeast_English @ 2.400658
5 East_German + French_Basque + Norwegian + Southeast_English @ 2.413586
6 French_Basque + North_Swedish + Southeast_English + Southeast_English @ 2.467380
7 Danish + East_German + French_Basque + Southwest_English @ 2.494018
8 East_German + French_Basque + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.501835
9 Danish + East_German + French_Basque + Irish @ 2.537920
10 French_Basque + North_Swedish + Southeast_English + West_German @ 2.548786
11 East_German + French_Basque + North_Dutch + Orcadian @ 2.551153
12 French_Basque + North_Swedish + Orcadian + South_Dutch @ 2.554742
13 Danish + Danish + East_German + French_Basque @ 2.562142
14 French_Basque + North_Swedish + South_Dutch + Southwest_English @ 2.566328
15 East_German + French_Basque + Orcadian + Southeast_English @ 2.589534
16 French + French_Basque + North_Swedish + Norwegian @ 2.591547
17 East_German + French_Basque + Norwegian + Orcadian @ 2.595767
18 Danish + French + French_Basque + North_Swedish @ 2.596750
19 East_German + French_Basque + North_Dutch + Southeast_English @ 2.602240
20 French_Basque + North_Swedish + Southwest_English + West_German @ 2.608825

Kamo
07-25-2018, 12:25 AM
I had not returned to this post for some time and was not aware of the responses. I'd like to know more about the autosomal testing. I belonged to the Molloy Family Project hosted in Ireland(online) and saw many of them were testing and every one of them were being found to belong to R1b-M222. At that time I was not very comfortable with having my dna tested but at some point I went ahead and did it. I had assumed I too would be R1b-M222. The first test I took was with 23andMe in 2012 and the results of course were I1 which at that time threw me because not knowing anything about this I had no idea what that was. At some point I impulsively closed the account. I do remember the results however and still am not certain what to make of them. I was found to be 75% 'Northern European' with the other 25% being a mix of British Isles and 'French'. Relative to my more specific FTDNA str test,I am still not at all certain what that means or amounts to(?). If I am not mistaken I think the Family Finder test at FTDNA is autosomal isn't it? I may in the future take that test. While I am careful not to impart meaning to the results that may not actually be accurate, it is a bit difficult to overlook either Viking or possibly Norman influence chiefly due to the locations of the vast majority of my matches. That is a long time ago but, so I have been told, even at distances of 1000 years in places like Europe, families are still living in areas that they have been living for a very long time so the dna traces are still to be found. My matches in the British Isles are rather conspicuously located in Waterford, Wexford, Dublin, Sligo and all along the eastern seaboard of England, the inner and outer Hebrides, Bute, Argyll, Mann, Caithness, Shetland, as well as Normandy, Sicily, Russia, Ukraine etc. Both Nordvedt and another gentleman from Ireland whose name I believe was Tyrone Bowes looked at the results and both stated the same thing with Bowes saying that in his opinion a non-paternal vent' took place somewhere along the line and further stated "I do not see any Irish ancestry in your results". Even though that is a pretty simple statement I wasn't really sure exactly what he meant by not seeing any Irish ancestry in my results as I have a match with the same Irish surname. The somewhat frustrating issue for me has been that when I tried to reach out to the 1 match I have with my surname, he didn't respond. And from there I really did not know what else to do. How does one reach out to someone in Norway, Denmark or Sweden with an exact match but a surname like Thorsen, Nilsson, Andersson etc and ask if they have any Molloys in their family? lol. At this point in the game for me it's no longer so much about trying to piece family history together but is just a fascinating research into my genetic background I suppose.

spruithean
07-25-2018, 12:46 AM
Kamo, I think they were referring to your Y-DNA not being "Irish", you and your Molloy I1-L813 match definitely have a connection to the Scandinavian networks of Dublin, Jórvik, the Inner and Outer Hebrides, Orkney and Shetland. The Norse-Gaels were a fairly powerful group of people in the Isles.

Kamo
07-25-2018, 01:02 AM
Hey spruithean. Yes, I have done quite a lot of reading and attempted to do a bit of detective work on the possibilities and found an interesting angle. These people early on were very predominantly Norse Gaels -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_%C3%8Dmair

Also on another tangent, 2 Irish families in particular were said to have crossed over to the 'bad guys' in alliances as well as giving daughters in marriage, the Donovans and the Molloys. They allied with Ivar of Limerick. The issue I have with that however is that info comes from the book "The Irish Wars With the Finghall and Dubghaill" which is said to be a bit sketchy in terms of accuracy. I've read it all the way through and it says Molloy had his Viking allies murder Brian Boru's brother Mathegmain(sp?) and then at some point, Molloy was killed by Boru and his forces. It's all fascinating and even if of course that story doesn't really involve any of my actual ancestors, it's still fun to read. I am a history buff anyway so I enjoy reading quite a lot. Most of us I am sure have seen any number of films or docs portraying the Viking activities in England but from all the sources I have read which is quite a few, the Viking story in Ireland is at least every bit as interesting and in some ways even more intense yet there are next to no documentaries or films depicting that time in Ireland. Danes, Norsemen and Irish all fighting for control of Dublin. They really behaved a lot like modern day gangsters in Ireland. In one case removing a rival's head and sending it in a sack back to his bosses in Dublin. Crazy stuff.

JerryS.
07-25-2018, 12:04 PM
I thought I would share my results from Gedmatch admixture (autosomal). It does look like my line of descent might lead back to Ireland, England, France, Denmark, Northern Germany, Norway, and Sweden. In other words those of you who mentioned the possibility of Hiberno-Norman ancestry may be correct. However, I am not sure how to interpret this information in order for it to make sense.

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Kit M580547

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 48.35
2 Baltic 22.42
3 West_Med 18.33
4 East_Med 3.97
5 West_Asian 2.56
6 South_Asian 2.5
7 Amerindian 0.73
8 Sub-Saharan 0.48
9 Red_Sea 0.4
10 Oceanian 0.25

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southeast_English 5.04
2 Southwest_English 5.2
3 South_Dutch 6.11
4 Orcadian 6.7
5 Irish 7.7
6 West_Scottish 7.76
7 West_German 7.9
8 North_Dutch 8.45
9 Danish 8.67
10 French 9.28
11 North_German 9.46
12 Norwegian 10.42
13 Swedish 11.84
14 Austrian 13.49
15 East_German 13.89
16 Spanish_Cataluna 15.2
17 Southwest_French 15.32
18 Spanish_Cantabria 16.13
19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 16.38
20 Spanish_Galicia 16.48

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 70.8% Orcadian + 29.2% Southwest_French @ 2.49
2 59.9% Norwegian + 40.1% Southwest_French @ 2.57
3 64.6% Danish + 35.4% Southwest_French @ 2.6
4 87.9% Orcadian + 12.1% Sardinian @ 2.73
5 65.4% North_Dutch + 34.6% Southwest_French @ 2.84
6 78.4% Southeast_English + 21.6% Southwest_French @ 2.85
7 72.4% Orcadian + 27.6% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.85
8 61.3% Norwegian + 38.7% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.87
9 70.8% North_German + 29.2% French_Basque @ 2.95
10 67.9% Irish + 32.1% Southwest_French @ 3.03
11 65.5% Swedish + 34.5% French_Basque @ 3.06
12 64.6% Norwegian + 35.4% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.19
13 61.3% Swedish + 38.7% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.2
14 66.2% Danish + 33.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.2
15 68% West_Scottish + 32% Southwest_French @ 3.21
16 86.3% West_Scottish + 13.7% Sardinian @ 3.21
17 80.3% Southeast_English + 19.7% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.21
18 92% Southeast_English + 8% Sardinian @ 3.24
19 73% Danish + 27% French_Basque @ 3.24
20 91.7% Southwest_English + 8.3% Sardinian @ 3.26


Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 48.35
2 Baltic 22.42
3 West_Med 18.33
4 East_Med 3.97
5 West_Asian 2.56
6 South_Asian 2.50


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Southeast_English @ 5.629829
2 Southwest_English @ 5.868410
3 South_Dutch @ 6.971352
4 Orcadian @ 7.499075
5 Irish @ 8.709702
6 West_Scottish @ 8.764776
7 West_German @ 9.064750
8 North_Dutch @ 9.446683
9 Danish @ 9.673527
10 North_German @ 10.605563
11 French @ 10.639712
12 Norwegian @ 11.674913
13 Swedish @ 13.253043
14 Austrian @ 15.444828
15 East_German @ 15.851196
16 Southwest_French @ 17.195410
17 Spanish_Cataluna @ 17.304214
18 Spanish_Cantabria @ 18.177526
19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 18.554085
20 Spanish_Galicia @ 18.670477

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Norwegian +50% Southwest_French @ 4.006787


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Danish +25% East_German +25% French_Basque @ 2.562142


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++
1 Danish + East_German + French_Basque + Orcadian @ 2.350403
2 French_Basque + North_Swedish + South_Dutch + Southeast_English @ 2.359570
3 Danish + East_German + French_Basque + West_Scottish @ 2.384250
4 Danish + East_German + French_Basque + Southeast_English @ 2.400658
5 East_German + French_Basque + Norwegian + Southeast_English @ 2.413586
6 French_Basque + North_Swedish + Southeast_English + Southeast_English @ 2.467380
7 Danish + East_German + French_Basque + Southwest_English @ 2.494018
8 East_German + French_Basque + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.501835
9 Danish + East_German + French_Basque + Irish @ 2.537920
10 French_Basque + North_Swedish + Southeast_English + West_German @ 2.548786
11 East_German + French_Basque + North_Dutch + Orcadian @ 2.551153
12 French_Basque + North_Swedish + Orcadian + South_Dutch @ 2.554742
13 Danish + Danish + East_German + French_Basque @ 2.562142
14 French_Basque + North_Swedish + South_Dutch + Southwest_English @ 2.566328
15 East_German + French_Basque + Orcadian + Southeast_English @ 2.589534
16 French + French_Basque + North_Swedish + Norwegian @ 2.591547
17 East_German + French_Basque + Norwegian + Orcadian @ 2.595767
18 Danish + French + French_Basque + North_Swedish @ 2.596750
19 East_German + French_Basque + North_Dutch + Southeast_English @ 2.602240
20 French_Basque + North_Swedish + Southwest_English + West_German @ 2.608825

you have an unusual pull to the south for being all N.W. European. what are you Dodecad V3 and MDLP K23b regular oracle mixed mode populations?

cleerje
07-25-2018, 09:32 PM
OK, here is my Dodecad V3 results. This must be from 4500 years ago or so. A really long time ago.

Dodecad V3 Oracle results:
The GEDmatch version of Oracle may give slightly different results from Dienekes version. The GEDmatch version uses FST weighting in its calculations.

Kit M580547

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European 53.4
2 Mediterranean 26.51
3 East_European 10.86
4 West_Asian 6.07
5 South_Asian 1.3
6 Southwest_Asian 1.12
7 Northwest_African 0.74

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 CEU (HapMap) 1.75
2 Orcadian (HGDP) 3.32
3 Orkney (1000 Genomes) 3.58
4 N._European (Xing) 3.94
5 Argyll (1000 Genomes) 3.96
6 German (Dodecad) 6.94
7 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 9.26
8 French (HGDP) 9.41
9 French (Dodecad) 9.42
10 Dutch (Dodecad) 9.75
11 Kent (1000 Genomes) 11.8
12 British_Isles (Dodecad) 13.46
13 British (Dodecad) 13.62
14 Cornwall (1000 Genomes) 14.29
15 Irish (Dodecad) 16.46
16 Swedish (Dodecad) 16.58
17 Slovenian (Xing) 16.6
18 Norwegian (Dodecad) 17.26
19 French_Basque (HGDP) 20.26
20 Hungarians (Behar) 20.52

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 95.1% CEU (HapMap) + 4.9% Portuguese (Dodecad) @ 1.31
2 95.6% CEU (HapMap) + 4.4% Spanish (Dodecad) @ 1.33
3 95.7% CEU (HapMap) + 4.3% IBS (1000Genomes) @ 1.35
4 95.5% CEU (HapMap) + 4.5% Spaniards (Behar) @ 1.36
5 89.8% CEU (HapMap) + 10.2% French (Dodecad) @ 1.39
6 95% CEU (HapMap) + 5% French_Basque (HGDP) @ 1.4
7 97.2% CEU (HapMap) + 2.8% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 1.42
8 87% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 13% Spanish (Dodecad) @ 1.47
9 91.6% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 8.4% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 1.51
10 87.2% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 12.8% IBS (1000Genomes) @ 1.53
11 91.6% CEU (HapMap) + 8.4% French (HGDP) @ 1.53
12 98.5% CEU (HapMap) + 1.5% TUNISIA (Henn) @ 1.53
13 86.1% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 13.9% Portuguese (Dodecad) @ 1.54
14 99.1% CEU (HapMap) + 0.9% Irula (Xing) @ 1.54
15 98.5% CEU (HapMap) + 1.5% North_African (Dodecad) @ 1.55
16 99.1% CEU (HapMap) + 0.9% North_Kannadi (Behar) @ 1.55
17 99.1% CEU (HapMap) + 0.9% TN_Dalit (Xing) @ 1.56
18 99% CEU (HapMap) + 1% Mala (Reich) @ 1.56
19 99% CEU (HapMap) + 1% AP_Mala (Xing) @ 1.56
20 98.4% CEU (HapMap) + 1.6% Morocco_N (Henn) @ 1.56

cleerje
07-25-2018, 09:38 PM
This one looks more reasonable than V3.

MDLP K23b Oracle results:
MDLP K23b Oracle Rev 2014 Sep 16

Kit M580547

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 35.62
2 European_Early_Farmers 29.62
3 Caucasian 21.74
4 Ancestral_Altaic 5.58
5 South_Central_Asian 2.87
6 North_African 1.97
7 South_Indian 1.26
8 Archaic_African 0.4
9 Amerindian 0.24
10 Khoisan 0.23
11 Melano_Polynesian 0.21
12 Australoid 0.15
13 Paleo_Siberian 0.09
14 Subsaharian 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Belgian ( ) 2.73
2 Frisian ( ) 4.17
3 English ( ) 4.47
4 English_Kent_GBR ( ) 4.55
5 Irish ( ) 5.25
6 North_European ( ) 5.47
7 English_Cornwall_GBR ( ) 5.99
8 Dutch ( ) 6.65
9 South_German ( ) 6.84
10 Norwegian_East ( ) 6.98
11 CEU ( ) 7
12 British ( ) 7.26
13 Welsh ( ) 7.38
14 Swede ( ) 7.69
15 German-Volga ( ) 7.76
16 North_German ( ) 8.07
17 Dane ( ) 8.09
18 French ( ) 8.44
19 Norwegian_West ( ) 8.51
20 Icelandic ( ) 10.32

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 89.5% Belgian ( ) + 10.5% Portugese ( ) @ 2.25
2 96.5% Belgian ( ) + 3.5% Sardinian ( ) @ 2.25
3 92.8% Belgian ( ) + 7.2% Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS ( ) @ 2.29
4 93.7% Belgian ( ) + 6.3% Spanish_Valencia_IBS ( ) @ 2.3
5 93.2% Belgian ( ) + 6.8% Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( ) @ 2.31
6 92.5% Belgian ( ) + 7.5% Spanish_Cataluna_IBS ( ) @ 2.31
7 91.6% Belgian ( ) + 8.4% Spaniard ( ) @ 2.31
8 92.8% Belgian ( ) + 7.2% Spanish_Murcia_IBS ( ) @ 2.31
9 92.5% Belgian ( ) + 7.5% Spanish_Galicia_IBS ( ) @ 2.32
10 92.4% Belgian ( ) + 7.6% Spanish_Extremadura_IBS ( ) @ 2.33
11 93.7% Belgian ( ) + 6.3% Spanish_Andalucia_IBS ( ) @ 2.34
12 90.4% Belgian ( ) + 9.6% Spanish_Baleares_IBS ( ) @ 2.34
13 94.8% Belgian ( ) + 5.2% Spanish_Aragon_IBS ( ) @ 2.35
14 94.5% Belgian ( ) + 5.5% Spanish_Castilla_la_Mancha_IBS ( ) @ 2.35
15 94.8% Belgian ( ) + 5.2% Spanish_Cantabria_IBS ( ) @ 2.35
16 85.5% Belgian ( ) + 14.5% French ( ) @ 2.36
17 96.1% Belgian ( ) + 3.9% French_South ( ) @ 2.43
18 97.9% Belgian ( ) + 2.1% Basque_Spanish ( ) @ 2.47
19 97.4% Belgian ( ) + 2.6% Spanish_Pais_Vasco_IBS ( ) @ 2.47
20 98% Belgian ( ) + 2% Basque_French ( ) @ 2.48

cleerje
07-25-2018, 09:42 PM
This is the original Eurogenes test.

EUtest Oracle results:
EUtest Oracle population reference data revised 06 Nov 2012.

Kit M580547

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 29.45
2 ATLANTIC 26.78
3 SOUTH_BALTIC 14.36
4 WEST_MED 13.71
5 EAST_EURO 8.81
6 WEST_ASIAN 3.02
7 EAST_MED 2.64
8 SOUTH_ASIAN 1.05
9 EAST_AFRICAN 0.17

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 English 3.61
2 NL 4.29
3 Cornish 4.57
4 West_&_Central_German 5.68
5 Orcadian 5.77
6 IE 6.47
7 DK 6.6
8 Scottish 7.55
9 NO 8.03
10 South_&_Central_Swedish 8.59
11 FR 10.06
12 AT 12.53
13 North_Swedish 13.06
14 PT 17.5
15 HU 17.75
16 ES 17.84
17 Serbian 20.52
18 South_Finnish 21.49
19 North_Italian 21.5
20 PL 23.19

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 96.9% English + 3.1% Sardinian @ 3.27
2 88.6% English + 11.4% FR @ 3.4
3 95.3% English + 4.7% French_Basque @ 3.43
4 94.4% English + 5.6% ES @ 3.46
5 94.8% English + 5.2% PT @ 3.49
6 80.4% English + 19.6% Cornish @ 3.55
7 98.7% English + 1.3% Mozabite_Berber @ 3.55
8 99.3% English + 0.7% South_Indian @ 3.56
9 98.7% English + 1.3% Moroccan @ 3.57
10 97.5% English + 2.5% North_Italian @ 3.57
11 98.5% English + 1.5% LIT @ 3.59
12 98.1% English + 1.9% HU @ 3.6
13 99.6% English + 0.4% Bangladeshi @ 3.6
14 98.8% English + 1.2% UA @ 3.6
15 88.8% English + 11.2% NL @ 3.6
16 99.6% English + 0.4% Gujarati @ 3.6
17 99.7% English + 0.3% IN @ 3.61
18 99.5% English + 0.5% Algerian @ 3.61
19 99.3% English + 0.7% Northwest_Russian @ 3.61
20 99.2% English + 0.8% PL @ 3.61

cleerje
07-25-2018, 09:55 PM
This is the most up-to-date program for people of European descent. I like it because it separates North Sea from Atlantic and therefore is a lot more specific. I don't know what to think about all the West Norwegian results in the mixed mode population results. Given that I-S6270 is part of the Z-138 West Germanic branch, I would expect a concentration in the Jutland peninsula and northern Germany and eastern Frisian areas.

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:
Kit M580547

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 38.72
2 Atlantic 24.77
3 West_Med 14.99
4 Baltic 10.18
5 Eastern_Euro 6.32
6 South_Asian 2.29
7 West_Asian 0.77
8 East_Med 0.73
9 Sub-Saharan 0.52
10 Amerindian 0.37
11 Red_Sea 0.31
12 Oceanian 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_English 6.73
2 Southeast_English 8.42
3 Orcadian 8.55
4 West_German 8.67
5 North_Dutch 8.9
6 Irish 9.63
7 West_Scottish 9.64
8 Norwegian 9.68
9 West_Norwegian 9.89
10 Danish 9.96
11 South_Dutch 10.01
12 Swedish 11.17
13 French 11.33
14 North_German 11.37
15 North_Swedish 14.29
16 East_German 15.27
17 Spanish_Galicia 17.2
18 Spanish_Cataluna 18.21
19 Portuguese 18.83
20 Hungarian 19.39

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 83.7% West_Norwegian + 16.3% Sardinian @ 4.9
2 66.6% West_Norwegian + 33.4% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.58
3 70.5% West_Norwegian + 29.5% Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.6
4 87.7% Orcadian + 12.3% Sardinian @ 5.93
5 69.3% West_Norwegian + 30.7% Portuguese @ 5.93
6 72.4% West_Norwegian + 27.6% Southwest_French @ 6.08
7 68.8% West_Norwegian + 31.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 6.09
8 70.4% West_Norwegian + 29.6% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 6.13
9 74% West_Norwegian + 26% Spanish_Aragon @ 6.13
10 85.5% Norwegian + 14.5% Sardinian @ 6.17
11 72% West_Norwegian + 28% Spanish_Extremadura @ 6.24
12 74% West_Norwegian + 26% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 6.29
13 72.4% West_Norwegian + 27.6% Spanish_Murcia @ 6.39
14 75.7% West_Norwegian + 24.3% Spanish_Andalucia @ 6.4
15 55.4% West_Norwegian + 44.6% French @ 6.42
16 72.7% Norwegian + 27.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 6.43
17 68.8% Norwegian + 31.2% Spanish_Galicia @ 6.43
18 74.3% West_Norwegian + 25.7% Spanish_Valencia @ 6.44
19 79.8% Southwest_English + 20.2% West_Norwegian @ 6.46
20 74.1% Orcadian + 25.9% Spanish_Galicia @ 6.5

JerryS.
07-25-2018, 10:51 PM
This is the most up-to-date program for people of European descent. I like it because it separates North Sea from Atlantic and therefore is a lot more specific. I don't know what to think about all the West Norwegian results in the mixed mode population results. Given that I-S6270 is part of the Z-138 West Germanic branch, I would expect a concentration in the Jutland peninsula and northern Germany and eastern Frisian areas.

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:
Kit M580547

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 38.72
2 Atlantic 24.77
3 West_Med 14.99
4 Baltic 10.18
5 Eastern_Euro 6.32
6 South_Asian 2.29
7 West_Asian 0.77
8 East_Med 0.73
9 Sub-Saharan 0.52
10 Amerindian 0.37
11 Red_Sea 0.31
12 Oceanian 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_English 6.73
2 Southeast_English 8.42
3 Orcadian 8.55
4 West_German 8.67
5 North_Dutch 8.9
6 Irish 9.63
7 West_Scottish 9.64
8 Norwegian 9.68
9 West_Norwegian 9.89
10 Danish 9.96
11 South_Dutch 10.01
12 Swedish 11.17
13 French 11.33
14 North_German 11.37
15 North_Swedish 14.29
16 East_German 15.27
17 Spanish_Galicia 17.2
18 Spanish_Cataluna 18.21
19 Portuguese 18.83
20 Hungarian 19.39

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 83.7% West_Norwegian + 16.3% Sardinian @ 4.9
2 66.6% West_Norwegian + 33.4% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.58
3 70.5% West_Norwegian + 29.5% Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.6
4 87.7% Orcadian + 12.3% Sardinian @ 5.93
5 69.3% West_Norwegian + 30.7% Portuguese @ 5.93
6 72.4% West_Norwegian + 27.6% Southwest_French @ 6.08
7 68.8% West_Norwegian + 31.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 6.09
8 70.4% West_Norwegian + 29.6% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 6.13
9 74% West_Norwegian + 26% Spanish_Aragon @ 6.13
10 85.5% Norwegian + 14.5% Sardinian @ 6.17
11 72% West_Norwegian + 28% Spanish_Extremadura @ 6.24
12 74% West_Norwegian + 26% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 6.29
13 72.4% West_Norwegian + 27.6% Spanish_Murcia @ 6.39
14 75.7% West_Norwegian + 24.3% Spanish_Andalucia @ 6.4
15 55.4% West_Norwegian + 44.6% French @ 6.42
16 72.7% Norwegian + 27.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 6.43
17 68.8% Norwegian + 31.2% Spanish_Galicia @ 6.43
18 74.3% West_Norwegian + 25.7% Spanish_Valencia @ 6.44
19 79.8% Southwest_English + 20.2% West_Norwegian @ 6.46
20 74.1% Orcadian + 25.9% Spanish_Galicia @ 6.5

even with the N.W. bias of Eurogenes you still show a strong pull towards Spain.

JerryS.
07-25-2018, 10:53 PM
double post

cleerje
07-25-2018, 11:55 PM
even with the N.W. bias of Eurogenes you still show a strong pull towards Spain.

I have certainly noticed that. I don't know why it shows so much Spanish, as I have no known ancestry from Spain. It is possible that it is from my mother's side, whose mtdna haplogroup is H1a1 and I have read where during the Ice Age, Europeans took refuge in the Iberian peninsula and then once the Ice Age was over around 10,000 BCE, they moved north into northwestern Europe.

JerryS.
07-25-2018, 11:58 PM
I have certainly noticed that. I don't know why it shows so much Spanish, as I have no known ancestry from Spain. It is possible that it is from my mother's side, whose mtdna haplogroup is H1a1 and I have read where during the Ice Age, Europeans took refuge in the Iberian peninsula and then once the Ice Age was over around 10,000 BCE, they moved north into northwestern Europe.

but for that to survive for so long without being watered down to next to nothing.....?

spruithean
07-28-2018, 08:33 PM
but for that to survive for so long without being watered down to next to nothing.....?

This.

Also please keep in mind that there a variety of calculators on GEDmatch, and the "Spanish" may be a stand-in for a region in your ancestry that is similar to Spain.

cleerje
07-30-2018, 02:31 AM
This.

Also please keep in mind that there a variety of calculators on GEDmatch, and the "Spanish" may be a stand-in for a region in your ancestry that is similar to Spain.

This is more than likely the case. There are similarities between the Celts of Britain, Ireland, and western France and the Celtiberians. I have had my autosomal DNA analyzed by Ancestry.com, 23andMe, DNALand, and FTDNA. None have shown any links to Iberia. Ancestry.com shows 42% Irish, Welsh, and Scottish; 27% Western Europe; 13% Great Britain; and 11% Scandinavian.
23andMe shows 69% British & Irish; 10.7% French & German; 1.8% Scandinavian; 17.7% broadly Northwest European. FTdna shows 69% British Isles; 12% Southeast Europe; 10% Scandinavian; and 9% Western Europe. DNA Land shows 94% Northwest Europe (English, West Scottish, Orcadian, Norwegian, and Iceland); 5% Sardinian; and 1% North Slavic.

JerryS.
07-30-2018, 11:58 AM
This is more than likely the case. There are similarities between the Celts of Britain, Ireland, and western France and the Celtiberians. I have had my autosomal DNA analyzed by Ancestry.com, 23andMe, DNALand, and FTDNA. None have shown any links to Iberia. Ancestry.com shows 42% Irish, Welsh, and Scottish; 27% Western Europe; 13% Great Britain; and 11% Scandinavian.
23andMe shows 69% British & Irish; 10.7% French & German; 1.8% Scandinavian; 17.7% broadly Northwest European. FTdna shows 69% British Isles; 12% Southeast Europe; 10% Scandinavian; and 9% Western Europe. DNA Land shows 94% Northwest Europe (English, West Scottish, Orcadian, Norwegian, and Iceland); 5% Sardinian; and 1% North Slavic.

what does this say for Eurogenes K13/k15; the purported go to models of European ancestry for many of those in the know?

spruithean
07-30-2018, 02:18 PM
what does this say for Eurogenes K13/k15; the purported go to models of European ancestry for many of those in the know?

It may just be me but I've not really found K13/K15 to be all that accurate for me at least, perhaps due to the jumble that is my European ancestry.

JerryS.
07-30-2018, 02:42 PM
It may just be me but I've not really found K13/K15 to be all that accurate for me at least, perhaps due to the jumble that is my European ancestry.

I find it to be a bit bias toward NW European....

JMcB
07-30-2018, 03:29 PM
what does this say for Eurogenes K13/k15; the purported go to models of European ancestry for many of those in the know?

I think the calculators, like ethnicity tests in general, have to be taken with a grain of salt. They can come pretty close but their results can also be pretty inconsistent. At the end of the day, they have to be interpreted in the light of your known ancestry and judged accordingly. Where they fly in the face of what I know, I either ignore them or consider the possiblity that they may be picking up on something more distant. Which ever it may be, I’m more inclined to trust my paper trail more than them. While always remaining open to the possibility of the unknown.

Kamo
07-31-2018, 02:46 AM
I think the calculators, like ethnicity tests in general, have to be taken with a grain of salt. They can come pretty close but their results can also be pretty inconsistent. At the end of the day, they have to be interpreted in the light of your known ancestry and judged accordingly. Where they fly in the face of what I know, I either ignore them or consider the possiblity that they may be picking up on something more distant. Which ever it may be, I’m more inclined to trust my paper trail more than them. While always remaining open to the possibility of the unknown.

With this in mind, what is your opinion of also going by known ancestry info of matches on sites like FTDNA? Specifically, let's say someone's paper trail only goes back to ______ insert date/timeframe here... Do you think it possible to fill in further back by finding out known ancestral info including locations etc from contact with matches even when you don't share a surname? Your statement made me think of my own situation. I don't know how common it is for others, but I only have 1 single match who shares my surname and there is no doubt we are related. The rest either have typically Scandinavian surnames and are located in the associated places. Or alternately the matches that do not have Scandinavian surnames do tend to have surnames related to each other such as McNeil which I get quite a few matches with. I have not contacted any of my matches located in Denmark, Sweden or Norway and have only contacted 2, 1 with my surname and the other a McNeil located on Barra Island but he did not respond. Just wondering if you (or anyone else here) think contacting matches who live far afield and have other surnames would be possible or better yet practical in trying to further piece together your family ancestry especially if your actual paper trail only goes back so far. In my case, the oldest known ancestor in my Ydna line was born in 1795. As for my mtdna, I have access to my mother's family going back to the 1200s but that of course won't help me with my Y-line.

spruithean
07-31-2018, 03:00 PM
With this in mind, what is your opinion of also going by known ancestry info of matches on sites like FTDNA? Specifically, let's say someone's paper trail only goes back to ______ insert date/timeframe here... Do you think it possible to fill in further back by finding out known ancestral info including locations etc from contact with matches even when you don't share a surname? Your statement made me think of my own situation. I don't know how common it is for others, but I only have 1 single match who shares my surname and there is no doubt we are related. The rest either have typically Scandinavian surnames and are located in the associated places. Or alternately the matches that do not have Scandinavian surnames do tend to have surnames related to each other such as McNeil which I get quite a few matches with. I have not contacted any of my matches located in Denmark, Sweden or Norway and have only contacted 2, 1 with my surname and the other a McNeil located on Barra Island but he did not respond. Just wondering if you (or anyone else here) think contacting matches who live far afield and have other surnames would be possible or better yet practical in trying to further piece together your family ancestry especially if your actual paper trail only goes back so far. In my case, the oldest known ancestor in my Ydna line was born in 1795. As for my mtdna, I have access to my mother's family going back to the 1200s but that of course won't help me with my Y-line.

Yes, my cousin has done this with some familial lines in Ireland by using her autosomal DNA results along with mine and other cousins. It is especially useful if we've found autosomal matches to people with shared surnames in areas where we know our family came from, but due to the poor record keeping in Ireland we can't find the records that tie the lines together, we just know there is a definite connection.

I'm not sure how to make this work in a Y-DNA sense because Y-DNA stretches back quite far in time and how a family identifies itself (ethnicity, etc) is not limited to what the Y-DNA haplogroup is of the males. The most important Y-DNA match you have is the one with your surname or a variant of that surname. I myself have a match with roots in Co. Down in Northern Ireland who has a variant of my surname that is lacking the patronymic prefix, we do not have the supporting Northern Irish or Scottish records to find out where we fit in, but it is clear there is a common ancestor at some point in time. However I've found several possible individuals on the 1660s Hearth Money Rolls of Ulster where the common ancestor could have lived.

Just an aside, I would be wary of the self-reported trees of the I1 MacNeils claiming roots on Barra, according to the administrators of that project no Barra MacNeil belongs to I1 and most MacNeils who are of the haplogroup I-L813>Y13039+ are likely part of the kindred of Torquill MacNeill, constable of Castle Sween in the Taynish area in Knapdale in Argyllshire. Unfortunately erroneous genealogies have been made that connect the mainland & Inner Hebridean MacNeills (of Gigha, Colonsay, Taynish, etc) to the Outer Hebridean MacNeils. The Clan MacNeil Y-DNA Project has quite definitively shown that the Barra MacNeils are not related to any of the mainland groups.

Kamo
07-31-2018, 08:22 PM
Yes, my cousin has done this with some familial lines in Ireland by using her autosomal DNA results along with mine and other cousins. It is especially useful if we've found autosomal matches to people with shared surnames in areas where we know our family came from, but due to the poor record keeping in Ireland we can't find the records that tie the lines together, we just know there is a definite connection.

I'm not sure how to make this work in a Y-DNA sense because Y-DNA stretches back quite far in time and how a family identifies itself (ethnicity, etc) is not limited to what the Y-DNA haplogroup is of the males. The most important Y-DNA match you have is the one with your surname or a variant of that surname. I myself have a match with roots in Co. Down in Northern Ireland who has a variant of my surname that is lacking the patronymic prefix, we do not have the supporting Northern Irish or Scottish records to find out where we fit in, but it is clear there is a common ancestor at some point in time. However I've found several possible individuals on the 1660s Hearth Money Rolls of Ulster where the common ancestor could have lived.

Just an aside, I would be wary of the self-reported trees of the I1 MacNeils claiming roots on Barra, according to the administrators of that project no Barra MacNeil belongs to I1 and most MacNeils who are of the haplogroup I-L813>Y13039+ are likely part of the kindred of Torquill MacNeill, constable of Castle Sween in the Taynish area in Knapdale in Argyllshire. Unfortunately erroneous genealogies have been made that connect the mainland & Inner Hebridean MacNeills (of Gigha, Colonsay, Taynish, etc) to the Outer Hebridean MacNeils. The Clan MacNeil Y-DNA Project has quite definitively shown that the Barra MacNeils are not related to any of the mainland groups.


Yes, you had given me that important info about the MacNeils of Barra and straightened that out for me in another thread and I appreciate it. Helps a lot to better clarify things. The single MacNeil I have in Barra actually has his marker on Barra so either he isn't actually in Barra or he is but has moved there and isn't related to the original Barra MacNeils if I am understanding this in the proper context. As far as my actual surname spruithean, I only have the 1 match with same surname and no others are even close in any form. In fact 90% of my matches are in Scandinavia. In Ireland itself, I only have a small handful of matches. There are far more in England than in Ireland actually and those are concentrated along the eastern side of the country and spread from south to north but along eastern side as I say. Since I was not able to get any lasting dialogue going with my Molloy match I have just been wondering where to take it from there. I belonged to the Molloy Family Project hosted in Ireland for a few years and ironically once I tested I did not match any of them. They are all R1b-M222. They advised me that if I wanted to check elsewhere that it is possible to contact local authorities online and get family records going pretty far back if they have them for my family. I may try that. I'm sure those people were probably staunch Catholics so maybe the RCC has kept records too(?) Not sure I'd get very far if I started contacting Norwegian, Danish or Southern Sweden matches lol.

spruithean
07-31-2018, 09:19 PM
Yes, you had given me that important info about the MacNeils of Barra and straightened that out for me in another thread and I appreciate it. Helps a lot to better clarify things. The single MacNeil I have in Barra actually has his marker on Barra so either he isn't actually in Barra or he is but has moved there and isn't related to the original Barra MacNeils if I am understanding this in the proper context. As far as my actual surname spruithean, I only have the 1 match with same surname and no others are even close in any form. In fact 90% of my matches are in Scandinavia. In Ireland itself, I only have a small handful of matches. There are far more in England than in Ireland actually and those are concentrated along the eastern side of the country and spread from south to north but along eastern side as I say. Since I was not able to get any lasting dialogue going with my Molloy match I have just been wondering where to take it from there. I belonged to the Molloy Family Project hosted in Ireland for a few years and ironically once I tested I did not match any of them. They are all R1b-M222. They advised me that if I wanted to check elsewhere that it is possible to contact local authorities online and get family records going pretty far back if they have them for my family. I may try that. I'm sure those people were probably staunch Catholics so maybe the RCC has kept records too(?) Not sure I'd get very far if I started contacting Norwegian, Danish or Southern Sweden matches lol.

Yeah, I've seen his marker placed there on the DNA project map. But considering his matches to the Argyll group who are likely kindred to Torquill MacNeill it is unlikely he has any real verifiable connection to Barra, those marker placements are the placements for where someone believes or has confirmed their Most Distant Known Ancestor (MDKA) to have been from, in his case he assumes Barra, but his genetic results say otherwise. However that doesn't rule out the fact that roots in Argyll can perhaps point to a Norse-Gaelic origin, especially considering you are matching other people in areas known to have had Viking activity.

I would pay attention to Irish records and things that are genealogically relevant (recent and traceable). I suspect your Molloy ancestry traces back to a Norsemen who (either he or a descendant) adopted Gaelic culture (as did many Norsemen in those days) and eventually adopted the surname Molloy. How events like these came about can be through any number of violent, peaceful or otherwise unusual ways. The thing we need to keep in mind with Y-DNA is that it is a small portion of our DNA and it is unlikely that we share much autosomal DNA with a distant Y-DNA ancestor. Say your Y-DNA ancestor who first came to Ireland was indeed a marauding Viking, his descendants stayed in Ireland, adopted an Irish surname, as time went on the amount of "Scandinavian" DNA was washed away by "Irish" DNA.

My family are the only I-A14097s in my Clan project and we have 1 match in Northern Ireland who has yet to respond to my messages. My haplogroup is a branch off of the seemingly "British Isles" restricted I-A13241, some suspect this haplogroup to have been spread throughout the north of Britain by the Northumbrians, however it's possible it was spread by Danes or other groups, how my Y-line ancestors eventually wound up with a Gaelic surname is unknown to me, but my paper trail goes back to SW Scotland if I am correct in my research and SW Scotland saw settlements of various Celtic groups, Northumbrians and Scandinavians and later Anglo-Normans (a conglomeration of Germanic and Celtic ancestry).

How far back have you traced your Molloy ancestry? I seem to recall you had mentioned to early maritime Canada at some point. Maritime Canada has some decent records, however once we get to a certain era we find some registrations (like death and the like) were not mandatory...

Kamo
08-01-2018, 02:36 AM
Yeah, I've seen his marker placed there on the DNA project map. But considering his matches to the Argyll group who are likely kindred to Torquill MacNeill it is unlikely he has any real verifiable connection to Barra, those marker placements are the placements for where someone believes or has confirmed their Most Distant Known Ancestor (MDKA) to have been from, in his case he assumes Barra, but his genetic results say otherwise. However that doesn't rule out the fact that roots in Argyll can perhaps point to a Norse-Gaelic origin, especially considering you are matching other people in areas known to have had Viking activity.

I would pay attention to Irish records and things that are genealogically relevant (recent and traceable). I suspect your Molloy ancestry traces back to a Norsemen who (either he or a descendant) adopted Gaelic culture (as did many Norsemen in those days) and eventually adopted the surname Molloy. How events like these came about can be through any number of violent, peaceful or otherwise unusual ways. The thing we need to keep in mind with Y-DNA is that it is a small portion of our DNA and it is unlikely that we share much autosomal DNA with a distant Y-DNA ancestor. Say your Y-DNA ancestor who first came to Ireland was indeed a marauding Viking, his descendants stayed in Ireland, adopted an Irish surname, as time went on the amount of "Scandinavian" DNA was washed away by "Irish" DNA.

My family are the only I-A14097s in my Clan project and we have 1 match in Northern Ireland who has yet to respond to my messages. My haplogroup is a branch off of the seemingly "British Isles" restricted I-A13241, some suspect this haplogroup to have been spread throughout the north of Britain by the Northumbrians, however it's possible it was spread by Danes or other groups, how my Y-line ancestors eventually wound up with a Gaelic surname is unknown to me, but my paper trail goes back to SW Scotland if I am correct in my research and SW Scotland saw settlements of various Celtic groups, Northumbrians and Scandinavians and later Anglo-Normans (a conglomeration of Germanic and Celtic ancestry).

How far back have you traced your Molloy ancestry? I seem to recall you had mentioned to early maritime Canada at some point. Maritime Canada has some decent records, however once we get to a certain era we find some registrations (like death and the like) were not mandatory...

I've traced ancestors in Ireland back to his birth in 1795 in Dublin and from there during the Famine to Liverpool and then on to the US. No one in Canada that I know of. What's ironic is that a website hosted in Germany that I stumbled upon has my mother's side of the family listed all the way back to the 1200s. I contacted them to find out who found that info but they never responded. Wish I could find that breadth of info for my father's side. The other bit of irony in this is that I finally tested my mtdna and there too the majority of my matches are in Norway, the southern 'Scania' portion of Sweden and also in Scotland. Strange to me since that side came from the Bad Wurttemberg and Alsace areas of Germany as far as I know. It's all fascinating stuff in any case.

spruithean
08-01-2018, 01:46 PM
I've traced ancestors in Ireland back to his birth in 1795 in Dublin and from there during the Famine to Liverpool and then on to the US. No one in Canada that I know of. What's ironic is that a website hosted in Germany that I stumbled upon has my mother's side of the family listed all the way back to the 1200s. I contacted them to find out who found that info but they never responded. Wish I could find that breadth of info for my father's side. The other bit of irony in this is that I finally tested my mtdna and there too the majority of my matches are in Norway, the southern 'Scania' portion of Sweden and also in Scotland. Strange to me since that side came from the Bad Wurttemberg and Alsace areas of Germany as far as I know. It's all fascinating stuff in any case.

I wish I could find that same breadth of info for my father's side too, my mother's family tree is sprawling and goes quite a ways back into the early days of the Netherlands, with some genealogists having traced certain lines to the 1300s at the earliest. My father's direct paternal line seemingly ends in the 1790s as does yours, some lines go back quite a ways, others not so much. I wouldn't read too much into ones Y and mt haplogroups, they don't reflect what genealogically recent ancestors would have identified with. They are just small pieces of very distant ancestors that we happen to share genetics with. I guess we have to keep in mind that people migrate and eventually "disappear" into the area they migrated to...

I was reading back in this thread and I noticed the question of which I1 haplogroups were found in Ireland and it has left me wondering if there is more Northern I-L22 clades found in Ireland or more Western I-Z140 clades... anyone have any ideas?

cleerje
08-01-2018, 07:44 PM
I wish I could find that same breadth of info for my father's side too, my mother's family tree is sprawling and goes quite a ways back into the early days of the Netherlands, with some genealogists having traced certain lines to the 1300s at the earliest. My father's direct paternal line seemingly ends in the 1790s as does yours, some lines go back quite a ways, others not so much. I wouldn't read too much into ones Y and mt haplogroups, they don't reflect what genealogically recent ancestors would have identified with. They are just small pieces of very distant ancestors that we happen to share genetics with. I guess we have to keep in mind that people migrate and eventually "disappear" into the area they migrated to...

I was reading back in this thread and I noticed the question of which I1 haplogroups were found in Ireland and it has left me wondering if there is more Northern I-L22 clades found in Ireland or more Western I-Z140 clades... anyone have any ideas?

I'd like to add I-Z138 to that list of I1 haplogroups in Ireland. There are a lot of people with the surname Cleere in Ireland, along with some in England.

spruithean
08-02-2018, 02:54 PM
I'd like to add I-Z138 to that list of I1 haplogroups in Ireland. There are a lot of people with the surname Cleere in Ireland, along with some in England.

I-Z138 and I-Z140 share a similar spread across Europe, with one seeming to be slightly more "northerly" (but not by much). I would imagine the original people carrying these clades belonged to the same wave of migration.

cleerje
08-03-2018, 12:40 AM
I-Z138 and I-Z140 do have a similar spread across northern Europe. I also should have added I-Z139 to the list, as it is just slightly downstream of the Z-138 branch, with some sources saying it is the same thing. When I looked at FTDNA's SNP map for I-Z139, I noticed something new and surprising. There was a concentration in East Anglia, mainly in Norfolk. It just so happens that there were people named Cleere living there. During my research, I came across Sir Henry Cleere of Norfolk, who had been knighted by King James I at Charterhouse in 1603 (he was only five years old at the time). He was born at Ormesby, St. Margaret, Norfolk in 1598 and died August 22, 1622, at age 25. His father was Sir Edmund Clere who had married Margaret Yaxley.
Sir Henry Cleere married Muriel Mundford and they had a daughter named Abigail, who went on to marry Oliver Cromwell's son Robert (I think that was his name).

Sir Henry's last name is sometimes spelled Clere, but with the term aka Sir Henry Cleere right after in parentheses. Evidently, they couldn't figure out which way they wanted to spell it. The name Clere is definitely Norman, with its origin just south of Vexin, Normandy between Rouen and Paris. So I might be related very distantly to the Clere's or Cleere's of East Anglia. It seems hard for me to believe that we are related to anybody with a lower noble background. My ancestor, George Emmet Cleere, was born in 1735 in Virgina near the Potomac and grew up to be a farmer, as his descendants did until the 20th Century.

cleerje
08-03-2018, 12:49 AM
Oops, it was not Robert Cromwell that Abigail Cleere married, rather his name was John Cromwell, in 1631, and they had Joan Cromwell in 1634.

NJCleere
08-22-2018, 07:13 PM
I have spent years researching this surname and have spoken to the author of the book ‘De Clares’. He is adamant that it is impossible from an etymological standpoint that Cleere could not have derived from De Clare. My own research bears this out without exception. We have no connection whatsoever to Strongbow or any of the De Clare dynasty. The name ‘Cleere’ is descriptive and in Middle English it was the accepted spelling of ‘clear’ - as in a clear sky. With the great vowel shift which marked the beginning of modern English ‘Cleere’ changed to either ‘Cleer’ or ‘Clear’. ‘Cleere’ as the Middle English spelling simply survived its Middle English spelling. I have traced my own genealogy back to the early 1700s and in the early days it was registered as ‘Cleere’, ‘Clear’ and ‘Cleere’ before reverting back to Cleere. It remained Cleere after English was codified in the early 19th century. Prior to the onset of Middle English the name was spelled as ‘Clere’ as a legacy of the French convention of a word of that sound. The name is definitely Norman French and is probably connected to the Clere family of Ormesby in Norfolk. However, the Clere family’s pedigree as French noblemen and contributors to the 1066 conquest of England has been cast into serious doubt by historians. They agree that the name and family are Normans but dispute their high pedigree as the claims made by the family have been refuted.

cleerje
08-22-2018, 08:18 PM
It's good to hear from someone with the same last name! I looked up the name Clere in Public Profiler's World Names, and the vast majority live in northern France. It list Cleere as being Celtic from Ireland, however. The name Cleere in Ireland is derived from de Cleir and O'Cleireagh, but you probably already know that. I have had my doubts about the name Cleere being only Celtic from Ireland, however. There are plenty of people from England with that name, both past and present.

Kamo
12-24-2018, 08:42 PM
Okay. I have been told several times recently that I ought to take the FTDNA Big Y test. I'm currently tested to 67 markers. Not sure what the Big Y test will succeed in telling me. Currently I am the lone Molloy who has tested for I1-M253 so it has been difficult to say the least finding actual familial connections via that route. The only paper trail I have is that my earliest known male ancestor on my father's side was born in Offaly in 1795 and died in Ohio in 1880. I think to boil it down, I would like to know what more would I learn or what more would be uncovered by taking the BigY? Thanks in advance.

spruithean
12-24-2018, 09:03 PM
Okay. I have been told several times recently that I ought to take the FTDNA Big Y test. I'm currently tested to 67 markers. Not sure what the Big Y test will succeed in telling me. Currently I am the lone Molloy who has tested for I1-M253 so it has been difficult to say the least finding actual familial connections via that route. The only paper trail I have is that my earliest known male ancestor on my father's side was born in Offaly in 1795 and died in Ohio in 1880. I think to boil it down, I would like to know what more would I learn or what more would be uncovered by taking the BigY? Thanks in advance.

Big Y will give you more information than a simple SNP pack, it will test many (and I mean many) SNPs down to SNPs that aren't on the Y-trees yet. It will also provide you with matches and potentially filter out STR matches that are simply the results of haplotype convergence. Big Y will give you your most terminal SNP, my family had tested to I-Z140, and through Big Y we are I-A14097, quite a ways down the tree from Z140!

However Big Y is not exactly a genealogical tool, unless there has been extensive testing on lineages that are related to yours. For my own case I took Big Y because some of my matches at 67 markers that I suspected to be distantly related to turned out to be on different branches from our main root haplogroup, which in turn makes our TMRCA much further back, which stops me from searching endlessly for possible links between these families with different surnames.

I should add that testing Big Y is entirely up to you, and honestly it depends what you want out of genetic testing.