Wales and DF41

[rms2]

Thus far, most of those in the DF41 Project have ancestry in Scotland or Ireland. Some of the entries are duplicates (relatives from the same paternal line), but even after excluding those, Scotland and Ireland seem to predominate.

After Scotland and Ireland, Wales shows a number of DF41+ results. Here is a list of those DF41+ men who list a Welsh ancestor or who have a Welsh surname (excluding duplicates):

Ellis kit 7889
Evans kit 349812
Jones kit 51112
Matthews kit 67559
Powell kit N39486
Price kit 49109
Samuel kit N104746
Williams kit 144683

In addition to those, the following are likely to be of Welsh ancestry but either do not belong to the DF41 Project or are brickwalled outside of Europe:

Beddoes (kit number unknown)
Stevens/Stephens (numerous kits)

Here is how the names listed above break down in terms of SNPs downstream of DF41:

BY114
Ellis

FGC13030
Evans
Jones
Powell

A600
Matthews

BY166
Beddoes
Price
Samuel
Stevens/Stephens

MC04
Williams

[rms2]

I have not done a detailed analysis of the ancestral origins of every y-dna line represented in the R-DF41 and Subclades Project, but it certainly appears that in the Isles it's a subclade skewed to the western, "Celtic Fringe".

Of those in England, two are in the greater London area, and one of those has the ancestral surname Matthews and lists "possibly Wales" among the remarks on place of ancestral origin.

Here is the "all" map from the DF41 Project. I haven't made any effort to exclude redundant samples from the same y-dna lines.

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[jdean]

I have not done a detailed analysis of the ancestral origins of every y-dna line represented in the R-DF41 and Subclades Project, but it certainly appears that in the Isles it's a subclade skewed to the western, "Celtic Fringe".

Of those in England, two are in the greater London area, and one of those has the ancestral surname Matthews and lists "possibly Wales" among the remarks on place of ancestral origin.

Here is the "all" map from the DF41 Project. I haven't made any effort to exclude redundant samples from the same y-dna lines.

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Interesting that Southern Ireland is also underrepresented, I get the impression this is the case for DF49 x M222 as well.

[rms2]

Interesting that Southern Ireland is also underrepresented, I get the impression this is the case for DF49 x M222 as well.

I'm guessing Z253 (some of it L226+), CTS4466, and DF21 predominate in Southern Ireland, with some M222 and DF23xM222.

[Dubhthach]

Interesting that Southern Ireland is also underrepresented, I get the impression this is the case for DF49 x M222 as well.

I'd imagine the south of Ireland is also underrepresented when it comes to M222 as well, which would be reflective of Irish history (M222 concentration highest in Leath Cuinn -- eg. line from Galway to Dublin)

[jdean]

I'd imagine the south of Ireland is also underrepresented when it comes to M222 as well, which would be reflective of Irish history (M222 concentration highest in Leath Cuinn -- eg. line from Galway to Dublin)

That's certainly the picture you get from the Chromo2 map of M222.

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Information is quite limited at the moment but I don't think DF49 x M222 is likely to achieve 5% of L21 anywhere in Ireland at the moment, let alone 5% overall, but it does seem more common in Northen Ireland.

[Dubhthach]

That's certainly the picture you get from the Chromo2 map of M222.

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Information is quite limited at the moment but I don't think DF49 x M222 is likely to achieve 5% of L21 anywhere in Ireland at the moment, let alone 5% overall, but it does seem more common in Northen Ireland.

Note that 30% for the entire province of Ulster (9 counties) and not just Northern Ireland (6 counties). You have to consider the fact that both Donegal and Cavan would have probably among highest levels of M222, both were rules by dynastical groupings that were probably M222+

As an aside we really need to know their sample size for each region. Also problem with Leinster in that map is it doesn't reflect the historic reality of Leinster eg. the whole north of what we call Leinster was the historic province of Mide (Midhe -> Mí) eg. Meath in english, this was the territory of the "Southern Uí Néill", I'd also imagine Dublin probably adds a bias on the results for Leinster given the centripetal force of a capital city.

Ideally they should break it into a county map which would at least give us a more fine grain geographic distribution. 3-5% in Northern Britain is interesting, though it would be nice if they had some sorta control (eg. excluding people with known Irish ancestry post 1800 etc.).

I wonder if there is an equivalent DF41/CTS2501 map from them?

[jdean]

Note that 30% for the entire province of Ulster (9 counties) and not just Northern Ireland (6 counties). You have to consider the fact that both Donegal and Cavan would have probably among highest levels of M222, both were rules by dynastical groupings that were probably M222+

As an aside we really need to know their sample size for each region. Also problem with Leinster in that map is it doesn't reflect the historic reality of Leinster eg. the whole north of what we call Leinster was the historic province of Mide (Midhe -> Mí) eg. Meath in english, this was the territory of the "Southern Uí Néill", I'd also imagine Dublin probably adds a bias on the results for Leinster given the centripetal force of a capital city.

Ideally they should break it into a county map which would at least give us a more fine grain geographic distribution. 3-5% in Northern Britain is interesting, though it would be nice if they had some sorta control (eg. excluding people with known Irish ancestry post 1800 etc.).

I wonder if there is an equivalent DF41/CTS2501 map from them?

Unfortunately not, though Jim has a group for S388 (L744) so presumably he has a map for them, assuming he found enough to make a dint.

These are his L21 groups as of last summer, he may have added more since them but somehow I doubt it : )

R1b-M222 Ancient Irish
R1b-S1136 - Eoganachta
R1b-S145 - Pretani
R1b-S168 - Dalcassian
R1b-S169 - Hibernian
R1b-S190 - Maeatae
R1b-S388 - Royal Stewart
R1b-S530 - Pictish


I'd love to get my hand on all of these maps, apart from anything else it looks like his L21 map is his version of L21* so ideally they need to be looked at together.

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[rms2]

You're right, Dave, BritainsDNA (IrelandsDNA, etc.) does not have an S524 (DF41) map. My Chromo2 pages list my terminal SNP as S524, but the map I get is the S145 (L21) map above, which, as you said, must represent L21*, since it has way way lower L21 frequencies for Ireland (and elsewhere) than Busby has.

[jdean]

You're right, Dave, BritainsDNA (IrelandsDNA, etc.) does not have an S524 (DF41) map. My Chromo2 pages list my terminal SNP as S524, but the map I get is the S145 (L21) map above, which, as you said, must represent L21*, since it has way way lower L21 frequencies for Ireland (and elsewhere) than Busby has.

The frequency of 23% for L21 in the Ulster region when M222 is reported at 30% kind of gives it away as well : )

[rms2]

Of course, I never saw that M222 map until you posted it here. On my BritainsDNA myDNA pages I just get the S145 map.

[David Mc]

Hi rms,

Looking at your project, there are some interesting geographical variants. What do you make of the German, French, and Spanish DF41's? Do you see them as Isles origin, or representing two earlier branch-offs prior to the main body'd entry into the Isles?

Under DF41*, I see a Major from France, a Sotomayor from Spain, and a Sotomayor Borrero from Puerto Rico (and it's interesting to note the shared major/mayor surname roots there,,, possibly even suggestive?). Under the 1410 cluster you have a Swede and two unknowns (anecdotally Irish, but probably of Lancashire origins, given the surname). 1426 has two Opts and a Hiner from Germany again, and a Carrasco from Spain. Other than that DF41 seems predominately Scottish with a number of Northern Irish results(many likely of Scots origins), as you noted in your OP, a smattering of English and Welsh, and a bit of the Netherlands. You have a L746 in France as well, but that's where many of the "royal" Stewarts ended up, so I'd guess his origins lie there.

If the DF41 in Wales came from Scotland, it makes me wonder if it could corroborate the old tales of Cunedda of Manau Gododdin bringing his men to recapture Wales from the Irish-- or on the other hand, depending how "native Irish" the origins of the Irish DF41 are whether it might reflect the early Irish settlements in Wales. Fascinating stuff, either way.

Again, you'll have spent years circling around the possibilities. Just curious as to whether the picture has come into any more focus for you or your other project admins.

[jdean]

Of course, I never saw that M222 map until you posted it here. On my BritainsDNA myDNA pages I just get the S145 map.

That’s the stupid thing Rich, I can’t find any other maps pertinent to L21 save the one Jim posted ?

I’ve only got M222 because a friend of my in-laws asked my advise about his results.

Some of these are likely quite low frequency but I’d have thought the one for S168 would be pretty interesting, and S530, though of course they all add up to give the true picture of the distribution of L21

BTW This is the global distribution of M222, I don’t think that was available back in the summer, It’s interesting but also a little confusing ?

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[rms2]

Hi rms,

Looking at your project, there are some interesting geographical variants. What do you make of the German, French, and Spanish DF41's? Do you see them as Isles origin, or representing two earlier branch-offs prior to the main body'd entry into the Isles?

Under DF41*, I see a Major from France, a Sotomayor from Spain, and a Sotomayor Borrero from Puerto Rico (and it's interesting to note the shared major/mayor surname roots there,,, possibly even suggestive?). Under the 1410 cluster you have a Swede and two unknowns (anecdotally Irish, but probably of Lancashire origins, given the surname). 1426 has two Opts and a Hiner from Germany again, and a Carrasco from Spain. Other than that DF41 seems predominately Scottish with a number of Northern Irish results(many likely of Scots origins), as you noted in your OP, a smattering of English and Welsh, and a bit of the Netherlands. You have a L746 in France as well, but that's where many of the "royal" Stewarts ended up, so I'd guess his origins lie there.

I have to be somewhat careful how I answer your questions, since I have to protect our project members' privacy, but the answers I give will only be what could easily be acquired from the public y-dna results pages anyway.

The two Sotomayors, with slightly different versions of that surname, match so closely at 111 markers they apparently descend from the same y-dna ancestor who was born in Galicia in Spain. Interestingly, their only other match also has a Spanish surname, and they have no Isles folks as near haplotype neighbors.

The French DF41+ with the ancestral surname Bontron-Major is far off the two Sotomayors, so evidently the resemblance of the surnames is coincidental. Bontron-Major has a 62/67 match with the English DF41+ Bismire and a 35/37 match with another man with a French surname (who has never responded to my emails). There has been so much movement between France and the Isles over the millennia that it's difficult to say in which of the two places that line originated.

Our French L746+, Malloure, is a 110/111 match for one Stewart and a 109/111 match for several others. Looks like the descendant of a refugee from the "troubles of the '45".

Carrasco has at least one Scot not too far off, at 60/67, and Opt has Scots fairly close at both 67 and 111.

Again, this kind of info is easily gleaned from the haplotypes on the project web site. I'm not revealing secrets.

Hiner has just 37 markers but no close matches of any kind. Our Dutchman, Louw, although he has 111 markers, has no matches of any kind - very interesting.



If the DF41 in Wales came from Scotland, it makes me wonder if it could corroborate the old tales of Cunedda of Manau Gododdin bringing his men to recapture Wales from the Irish-- or on the other hand, depending how "native Irish" the origins of the Irish DF41 are whether it might reflect the early Irish settlements in Wales. Fascinating stuff, either way.

Again, you'll have spent years circling around the possibilities. Just curious as to whether the picture has come into any more focus for you or your other project admins.

I haven't followed the DF41 developments very closely... any speculation as to whether the Welsh could have come from Scotland (stories of

Under

As for our Welsh DF41's, Williams, kit 144683, belongs to an otherwise heavily Scottish cluster, 1426, and that division of it that is A40+.

Ellis, kit 7889, is in a group that is BY114+, and BY114 is above L563, which has been found in a couple of Manx lines.

BY166 and cluster 1123 is where I find myself, along with Samuel, Beddoes, Price, Webb, Self, Cooper, and Mayson (hope I didn't leave anyone out). Our group appears to be Welsh with a possible bleed over into the West Midlands of England, and no Scots to speak of (yet).

Evans, Jones, and Powell are FGC13030+ and have, as I recall, at least one Scot in their group.

The Matthews group is A600+ and includes a Riley from Lancashire.

I could say more, but I have run out of time for now.

[David Mc]

Thank you for the very comprehensive response, and I hope I didn't place you in an awkward position-- I tried to be fairly general in my line of questioning.

It's interesting how often we see SNP clusters in opposite ends of Europe (at least on the north/south cline) that don't have clear cognates anywhere else-- in this case, Netherlands and Spain. On the other hand, these two countries have had a long and complex relationship leading one to expect we might find Spanish lines in the Netherlands or Dutch lines in Spain. It sounds like your Dutch kit is unique, though, and is just as likely to have been camped out in the Netherlands since the Copper Age (if our assumptions about Beaker migrations are correct).


I have to be somewhat careful how I answer your questions, since I have to protect our project members' privacy, but the answers I give will only be what could easily be acquired from the public y-dna results pages anyway.

The two Sotomayors, with slightly different versions of that surname, match so closely at 111 markers they apparently descend from the same y-dna ancestor who was born in Galicia in Spain. Interestingly, their only other match also has a Spanish surname, and they have no Isles folks as near haplotype neighbors.

The French DF41+ with the ancestral surname Bontron-Major is far off the two Sotomayors, so evidently the resemblance of the surnames is coincidental. Bontron-Major has a 62/67 match with the English DF41+ Bismire and a 35/37 match with another man with a French surname (who has never responded to my emails). There has been so much movement between France and the Isles over the millennia that it's difficult to say in which of the two places that line originated.

Our French L746+, Malloure, is a 110/111 match for one Stewart and a 109/111 match for several others. Looks like the descendant of a refugee from the "troubles of the '45".

Carrasco has at least one Scot not too far off, at 60/67, and Opt has Scots fairly close at both 67 and 111.

Again, this kind of info is easily gleaned from the haplotypes on the project web site. I'm not revealing secrets.

Hiner has just 37 markers but no close matches of any kind. Our Dutchman, Louw, although he has 111 markers, has no matches of any kind - very interesting.



As for our Welsh DF41's, Williams, kit 144683, belongs to an otherwise heavily Scottish cluster, 1426, and that division of it that is A40+.

Ellis, kit 7889, is in a group that is BY114+, and BY114 is above L563, which has been found in a couple of Manx lines.

BY166 and cluster 1123 is where I find myself, along with Samuel, Beddoes, Price, Webb, Self, Cooper, and Mayson (hope I didn't leave anyone out). Our group appears to be Welsh with a possible bleed over into the West Midlands of England, and no Scots to speak of (yet).

Evans, Jones, and Powell are FGC13030+ and have, as I recall, at least one Scot in their group.

The Matthews group is A600+ and includes a Riley from Lancashire.

I could say more, but I have run out of time for now.

[rms2]

One thing I have learned is that those Stewarts really got around on the Continent after the Jacobite Rebellion. There are French Stewarts, Spanish Stewarts (Estuarte, believe it or not), Corsican Stewarts, and possibly even German Stewarts. I can't reveal any names or kit numbers, but I recently encountered an individual with a German surname that sure looks like it could be a Teutonic rendering of the royal surname. He only has 37 markers thus far, but he has some Stewarts among his close matches and is predicted by FTDNA to be CTS2501+. I broached the subject with him, but he seemed taken aback by it and perhaps a little shocked.

[David Mc]

It's not a bad pedigree to have. He might come to appreciate it after some time to ruminate a little :-)

[rms2]

I forgot to mention that our Swedish DF41+ has a close match to a man with a Scots surname, which, once again, can be gleaned from the public y-dna results pages of the project web site and is no great secret.

[McCown]

I'm chiming in on this thread because the title somewhat aligns with my current hypothesis for much of DF41 in which it seems to be predominantly Brythonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britons_(Celtic_people)).

First the obvious Brythonic branches:

BY166 seems to be Welsh

FGC13017 seems to be Welsh

A874, The Riggs lineage believes it's from Cumbria.

Second, the less obvious:

A40, despite all of the Northern Irish MDKA's, these lines are mostly Scotch-Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_American), which means they originally hail from Scotland. A40 seems to have strong ties to the lands between Dumbarton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumbarton) and Dumfries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumfries). In other words, these are the lands from the Kingdom of Strathclyde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Strathclyde). Each surname provides more clues to this branch, but one surname in particular stands out. The name Bratton/Barton/Broughton. I believe these are variations of the word Breatann which means Briton. There would be little need to call a Briton a Briton in Briton. However, in Scotland, it would have been a noteworthy distinction. See the placename Dumbarton to see how this name is used.

BY114, has ties to Isle of Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Isle_of_Man) which could have Brythonic origins and has an Ellis( Welsh surname ).

MC21 has strong ties to Isle of Man, with possible Scottish offshoots, see BY114.

S775, A600 has a line from Cumbria and another possibly from Wales. L746 is particularly interesting because of the long documented lines. The known line goes back to Brittany. The speculative line, comes to Brittany via Wales and to Wales via Scotland. Whatever the case, they fit into Breton culture quite well. So if they originally hailed from Scotland, it may have been as Brythonic( Strathclydian ) feudal thane. James claimed he descended from the race of Fergus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergus_M%C3%B3r). Some think Fergus had ties to Arthur (http://www.templum.freeserve.co.uk/history/strathclyde/realarthur.htm)( perhaps a fictional character ).

Y5638 ( aka 1410 Cluster ) seems to have ties to Wexford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_County_Wexford). Wexford is right across the sea from Wales. To quote wikipedia "most of the area of County Wexford is shown as inhabited by a tribe called the Brigantes, and a tribe called the Coriondoi"

A100 and the O'Hare cluster appear to be Irish but are one off clades in this hypothesis.

Galicia clades( Sotomayer, Colon, Gamino ) were settled by Britons in the 6th century... see map

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