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View Full Version : Higher ANE in L21 populations - is this telling us something about the L21 story



alan
01-08-2015, 03:17 AM
Just had a thought -maybe a eureka moment. You know how ANE is pretty variable and can be high or relatively low in different areas that are high in P312? This could tell us something about the paths and story of the various P312 clades.

L21 is associated predominantly in areas where ANE and WHG is high.

U152 is concentrated in areas where ANE and WHG is perhaps middling.

DF27 seems to lie in an area where ANE and WHG is not as high.

And yet all have a close common ancestor in P312

None of these areas are likely to have seen ANE until the end of the Neolithic. This is surely telling us something. What strikes me is L21 dominates in areas that have the highest ANE and WHG of the P312 dominated areas. In some ways L21 dominated areas i.e the Celtic fringe of the isles has an autosomal component ratio that is actually more akin to areas where P312 is not anywhere near as dominant i.e. the north European plain. Is this suggestive that L21 has something in its history that has caused it to be more akin to areas where P312 is not so dominant than it is to much of the P312 world. While we could argue that we can explain the similar proportion of WHG and ENF away as just an ancient pan-northern European thing dating back to the Mesolithic-Neolithic mixing, this does not explain away the raised ANE in L21 populations. This raised ANE seems overwhelmingly likely to be a post-Neolithic thing. So based on ANE, L21 rich populations are more like other non-P312 dominated northern European plain populations than they are like other high P312 areas. That then of course raised the question as to whether the similar WHG/ENF proportions across northern Europe are not at least party also post-Neolithic.

This IMO could be telling us something important. L21 would in this scenario appear to have spent a significant part of its time mixing with north European plain copper age populations that other P312 clades did not do to anything like the same degree. The obvious conclusion is that L21 or its immediate ancestor spent time overlapped with the corded ware culture, probably in the Lower Rhine area.

NB Please note that WHG and ANE is especially high in the isles in the Celtic fringe areas so later Germanic migration is an impossible explanation for why these areas have these raised counts. If that had been the case the Celtic fringe would have the least.

This to me kind of suggests that L21 had a history of mixing with north European plain populations that other P312 clades do not share to the same degree.

I need to have a think through a bit further

alan
01-08-2015, 03:21 AM
My feeling is that, as in the isles, L21 has a fringe position on the continent, was probably early dominant opposite Britain but has since been pushed west and diluted n the east hugely giving it a north-west fringe concentration in the isles and on the continent. There is a strong case I think that it was first in the lower Rhine and northern France when you consider its dominance in the isles and the strong beaker links in the isles with the Rhine and north France. Beaker dates in that area seem to commence in the 2500-2400 range fairly late by beaker standards as do those in the isles. The current continental distribution of L21 and other ylines across nothern France and the lower Rhine doesnt make a lot of sense when you consider the total dominance of L21 among the Britons and Irish. It surely has to have been the case that at one period L21 had totally sewn up the most commonly used approaches into the isles which in the beaker period would have been the Lower Rhine and northern France.

It is not necessary for them to have been dominant widely - just that they dominated the coastal zone and the sea crossings. If L21 didnt totally dominate the coastal zone how on earth did the Britons and Irish become so very L21 dominated? As I noted in a post above, a position close to the non-P312 dominated areas and mixing with different (north European) groups is the only way to explain why ANE is high among the Celtic fringe people of the isles today. This could not have come about if L21 had taken a westerly approach to the isles from Iberia for example. IMO the L21-ANE-autosomal correlations are strongly suggestive of a period of mixing with ANE harbouring north European populations and the Rhine mouth seems a very good candidate for this.

The only alternative way of explaining this is that somehow ANE got diluted heavier as P312 passed south and south-west from central Europe. However that is the reverse of the implication of the geographical chronology of beaker which moves in the opposite direction.

alan
01-08-2015, 04:13 AM
Next thought about L21 and ANE. L21 domnated areas have a proportion of ANE more akin to north European coastal populaton than deep inland central European ones. It does not appear to me that this can be explained by anything other than L21 gaining an autosomal identity close to that of north European plain populations with ones like the Dutch being especially close to people like the Irish and Scots. I cannot really see past the likelihood that L21 populations were autosomally likely to be very similar to corded ware ones in Holland. The exact dynamics of how that happened are not clear to me but in a small group autosomal DNA could be significantly changed in a couple of generations.

This doesnt address the bigger question of P312 in terms of origin, direction of spread etc. I am more leaning towards the idea that L11 might have originated somewhere like the Carpathians and P312 occurring perhaps half a millenium later close to the Rhine. This and the sort of timeframes would make it impossible to ignore the corded ware culture as an option.

Recently a study seems to claim that the Iberian beaker burials were basically local offshoots of the Corded Ware tradition. This leads me to wonder if P312 arose at the westernmost end of corded ware culture. If that was the case then this would have major implications. We might have to see DF27 as the expression of a south-western thrust into Iberia from the western edge of the Corded Ware culture around 2700BC. Then we might wonder what the U152 story was. Skipping over that this would have important implications for L21. It would actually suggest that L21 or its immediate ancestor was a relatively stay-home section of P312 which essentially remained in the western edge of corded ware,perhaps the Lower Rhine, and did not move far from there until after the beaker fashion had arrived. This would neatly fit with my observation that L21 dominated populations have levels of ANE that is closer to that of people like the Dutch or Danes than it is to other P312 dominated areas.

razyn
01-08-2015, 05:36 AM
Recently a study seems to claim that the Iberian beaker burials were basically local offshoots of the Corded Ware tradition. This leads me to wonder if P312 arose at the westernmost end of corded ware culture. If that was the case then this would have major implications. We might have to see DF27 as the expression of a south-western thrust into Iberia from the western edge of the Corded Ware culture around 2700BC.

Or, we might not. DF27 may have begun thrusting somewhere, around that time, but I don't think the phylogeny supports that geography and direction -- either from which (the western edge of the Corded Ware culture), or toward which (Iberia). That theory has a lot of baggage; and a bunch of garments have been falling out of the baggage lately with NextGen testing, higher resolution phylogenies, broader sectors of the European population being sampled, more aDNA, etc.

A few large and small subclades of DF27 that have been successful at breeding sons in Iberia may have moved, or descend from guys who moved, from some Corded Ware enclave to Iberia roughly that long ago. Z216, Z225 and DF83 may be examples. On the other hand, DF27 clades in the Netherlands, Scandinavia, Poland, Ukraine, and even England are starting to look more like their ancestors and uncles, and less like their descendants and nephews. I think we need to hold off a while and let the haplotree-based map fill in, a bit more. Not knowing where the trunk is may lead to a pretty distorted view.

Krefter
01-08-2015, 05:37 AM
Alan, L11 was probably originally north European-like, this is what Bell beaker genomes from Germany suggest. No change was needed for people with mostly L21, to become north European-like. Because most heavy P312 pops are EEF-like today, doesn't mean the people who spread P312 in west Europe were. It's French, Iberians, and Italians who admixed more with locals, not Gealics and Britons.

Krefter
01-08-2015, 05:41 AM
I find it very unlikely that L21-dominated all the way west in Irish were originally Spanish-like, and over years of admixture with people far away in Europe eventually lead to them being about as northern as Norwegians.

Krefter
01-08-2015, 05:44 AM
Alan, Germans, Austrians, and Swiss have a decent amount of French-like and Balkan-like ancestry, which can explain why they are more southern than Irish and Scandinavians. Just like French and Iberians their IE ancestors admixed more with EEF or near eastern-type people.

There are very obvious trends in ADMIXTURE tests for Europeans.

In Eurogenes K15: First there are EEF components; west Med and East med, then there are components from recent near eastern admixture; west Asian, east med, red sea, and then there are 4 components which are a mix of EEF, Yamna, and HGs; North sea, Atlantic, Baltic, and east Euro. Those 4 components(excluding Atlantic) in most parts of Europe represent bronze age IE ancestry from east-central Europe(CWC, bell beaker, Unetice).

Germans simply score higher in EEF and near eastern components than British-Irish, Scandinavians, Polish, Russians, and Balts, because they have less IE ancestry. Irish are the P312 carriers who admixed least with locals.

alan
01-08-2015, 06:57 PM
Alan, L11 was probably originally north European-like, this is what Bell beaker genomes from Germany suggest. No change was needed for people with mostly L21, to become north European-like. Because most heavy P312 pops are EEF-like today, doesn't mean the people who spread P312 in west Europe were. It's French, Iberians, and Italians who admixed more with locals, not Gealics and Britons.

Certainly possible and that is why I raised the possibility that L21 came into on the lower Rhine and really didnt have a very far treck to go to the isles and northern France. I am not particularly convinced of that beaker pot chronology tracks movement of beaker people in a simple one to one way. I got to be honest though, the genetic phylogeny etc do kind of make me think there is something to the slightly out of fashion idea of beaker being linked to corded ware in a complex wy with first a movement of some P312 to Iberia with the rest staying home around the Rhine. Then to complicate matters there may have then been a move of DF27 out of Iberia back towards SE France and the Alps. Of course we also know of things like the eclipse of the SW beaker group by central European beakers at Sion. So its very complex. However I am beginning to wonder if the P312 story is a pile simpler. If P312 was present in west-central Europe and the Rhine around 2700BC or even earlier then this would place it in corded ware. Then what we could have is a scenario where P312 largely stays put in that western part of the corded ware world but one early offshoot heads to Iberia bring what an archaeologist said was essentially a local spin on Corded Ware burial traditions - and its hard also not to think the generalised pottery similarities between the 2 cultures are not linked too. In terms of genetic geography that is simple and IMO works. The ancestors of the L21 and U152 lines in this picture just stay put with one offshoot going to Iberia and creating there what we call the beaker culture. That group then also expanded back towards southern France and the western Alps and influenced its stay-home cousins. It then gets very complex c. 2500BC when there seems to have been interaction,tension and expansion happening between the groups creating a number of beaker variants. However the core of this model is that P312 arose or was present anyway in pre-beaker times in westernmost corded ware and no beaker period migration needs envisaged to bring L21 to the Lower Rhine or U152 to west central Europe because it was already there. This is why I was trying to suggest the autosomal DNA and in particular the undeniably new ANE component does seem to hint that the beaker people who went into the isles and who were an element in the DNA of pre-Roman Britons appear to have come from NW Europe judging by the ANE proportions and indeed the proportion of the big three autosomals which clearly link isles Celts with NW Europeans along the north Sea coast. So, it sees to me that L21 rich areas got their ANE proportions from L21 and that L21 would appear to have been autosomally of a north-west European continental origin or certainly had those genetics before arriving in the isles.

alan
01-08-2015, 07:16 PM
I find it very unlikely that L21-dominated all the way west in Irish were originally Spanish-like, and over years of admixture with people far away in Europe eventually lead to them being about as northern as Norwegians.
That is what I am saying. L21 arrived after the Neolithic and so did ANE. It seems very likely that the carriers of L21 who vastly predominate among the isles Celts were the people who brought the ANE to the isles. If one accepts that then it is tempting to look for areas with similar ANE levels as the likely area where L21 or its immediate ancestor came from. I think this all seems to confirm the likelihood that L21 was indeed located originally in and around the Low Countries - which is hardly a shock when one considers the strong link to the Rhine in early beakers in the isles. It would frankly be bizzare if L21 somehow managed to become very dominant among the isles Celts if L21 had not had a crucial period of total domination of the easiest sea crossings to the isles. All they had to do was dominate the coast and the Rhine mouth in the period c. 2500-2000BC and that would be enough to have set the die on L21's dominance of the isles.

So, if

R.Rocca
01-08-2015, 08:04 PM
Just had a thought -maybe a eureka moment. You know how ANE is pretty variable and can be high or relatively low in different areas that are high in P312? This could tell us something about the paths and story of the various P312 clades.

L21 is associated predominantly in areas where ANE and WHG is high.

U152 is concentrated in areas where ANE and WHG is perhaps middling.

DF27 seems to lie in an area where ANE and WHG is not as high.

And yet all have a close common ancestor in P312

None of these areas are likely to have seen ANE until the end of the Neolithic. This is surely telling us something. What strikes me is L21 dominates in areas that have the highest ANE and WHG of the P312 dominated areas. In some ways L21 dominated areas i.e the Celtic fringe of the isles has an autosomal component ratio that is actually more akin to areas where P312 is not anywhere near as dominant i.e. the north European plain. Is this suggestive that L21 has something in its history that has caused it to be more akin to areas where P312 is not so dominant than it is to much of the P312 world. While we could argue that we can explain the similar proportion of WHG and ENF away as just an ancient pan-northern European thing dating back to the Mesolithic-Neolithic mixing, this does not explain away the raised ANE in L21 populations. This raised ANE seems overwhelmingly likely to be a post-Neolithic thing. So based on ANE, L21 rich populations are more like other non-P312 dominated northern European plain populations than they are like other high P312 areas. That then of course raised the question as to whether the similar WHG/ENF proportions across northern Europe are not at least party also post-Neolithic.

This IMO could be telling us something important. L21 would in this scenario appear to have spent a significant part of its time mixing with north European plain copper age populations that other P312 clades did not do to anything like the same degree. The obvious conclusion is that L21 or its immediate ancestor spent time overlapped with the corded ware culture, probably in the Lower Rhine area.

NB Please note that WHG and ANE is especially high in the isles in the Celtic fringe areas so later Germanic migration is an impossible explanation for why these areas have these raised counts. If that had been the case the Celtic fringe would have the least.

This to me kind of suggests that L21 had a history of mixing with north European plain populations that other P312 clades do not share to the same degree.

I need to have a think through a bit further

Alan, I think the WHG and ANE percentages for Northern France and England are almost identical, so you will not be able to decipher how L21 got into Britain by modern aDNA alone. Also, you have to take into account that Spain has had important conquests via the Mediterranean that Britain has not, so some of the difference we see in Spain may be due to post-Bell Beaker movements. The only thing that will disprove most of these theories are with ancient DNA samples.

alan
01-08-2015, 08:14 PM
Any takers for the idea that P312 split around 2700BC with one branch going into Iberia and the others saying closer to home around the Rhine and west-central Europe. It not far off what the genetics seems to be saying i.e. R1b probably progressed east to west through central Europe during the 3rd millenium BC with P312 clades being at the western end. As for my pushing corded ware. I ask this. Can you name any other culture that spans almost from the Ukraine to the border of France in the 3rd millenium BC in any archaeological books because I cant. There is no other east to west moving culture that brings us close to the IE homeland and at the same time reaches into western Europe. Both R1b and R1a show up in central Europe around 2600BC in the same general area at the same time but yet seem absent in all samples before. Could they not have simply arrived together? What has long concerned me about many of the models we have all chewed over is they lack simplicity. A corded ware model seems simple, right time, right place, links IE nicely etc and if we see beaker as an Iberian offshoot of corded ware as someone recently described the Iberian beaker burial traditions then bingo it is a very simple model. We can allow in that a reflux of beaker people from Iberia back towards and among their corded ware cousins c. 2600BC or so. That is a kind of reverse reflux compared to the traditional reflux theory.

R.Rocca
01-08-2015, 08:15 PM
Or, we might not. DF27 may have begun thrusting somewhere, around that time, but I don't think the phylogeny supports that geography and direction -- either from which (the western edge of the Corded Ware culture), or toward which (Iberia). That theory has a lot of baggage; and a bunch of garments have been falling out of the baggage lately with NextGen testing, higher resolution phylogenies, broader sectors of the European population being sampled, more aDNA, etc.

A few large and small subclades of DF27 that have been successful at breeding sons in Iberia may have moved, or descend from guys who moved, from some Corded Ware enclave to Iberia roughly that long ago. Z216, Z225 and DF83 may be examples. On the other hand, DF27 clades in the Netherlands, Scandinavia, Poland, Ukraine, and even England are starting to look more like their ancestors and uncles, and less like their descendants and nephews. I think we need to hold off a while and let the haplotree-based map fill in, a bit more. Not knowing where the trunk is may lead to a pretty distorted view.

But even that might not be enough. For example, if NE Iberia is the place where DF27 was the most frequent during the Bell Beaker period, then the chances of more regional DF27 chiefs coming to power and fathering more male heirs has to be greater there as well. This produces younger and younger successful branches in places of high frequencies. Not saying that's what happened, but certainly something to keep in mind that phylogeny should also be used with some level of caution.

alan
01-08-2015, 08:23 PM
Alan, I think the WHG and ANE percentages for Northern France and England are almost identical, so you will not be able to decipher how L21 got into Britain by modern aDNA alone. Also, you have to take into account that Spain has had important conquests via the Mediterranean that Britain has not, so some of the difference we see in Spain may be due to post-Bell Beaker movements. The only thing that will disprove most of these theories are with ancient DNA samples.

I realise I am seriously speculating here but I like the simplicity of it. I am suspicious of very complex models. Regarding northern France its just an extension of the north European plain in some ways. I am really just saying that in some areas like the isles L21 is the likely vehicle that ANE arrived by and yet L21 rich areas tend to have ANE levels of a pan north European plain level even though many of these areas are not L21 rich at all. It just seems to me that ANE level is a copper age thing and that its levels among the isles Celts links best with the north European plain from France to Poland. To be honest it seems virtually certain that L21 or its immediate ancestor must have been in charge of the coasts opposite the isles in the beaker era or there is simply no way that the descendants of the pre-Roman Britons would be so dominated by L21

alan
01-09-2015, 01:22 AM
Or, we might not. DF27 may have begun thrusting somewhere, around that time, but I don't think the phylogeny supports that geography and direction -- either from which (the western edge of the Corded Ware culture), or toward which (Iberia). That theory has a lot of baggage; and a bunch of garments have been falling out of the baggage lately with NextGen testing, higher resolution phylogenies, broader sectors of the European population being sampled, more aDNA, etc.

A few large and small subclades of DF27 that have been successful at breeding sons in Iberia may have moved, or descend from guys who moved, from some Corded Ware enclave to Iberia roughly that long ago. Z216, Z225 and DF83 may be examples. On the other hand, DF27 clades in the Netherlands, Scandinavia, Poland, Ukraine, and even England are starting to look more like their ancestors and uncles, and less like their descendants and nephews. I think we need to hold off a while and let the haplotree-based map fill in, a bit more. Not knowing where the trunk is may lead to a pretty distorted view.

I would have an open mind as to whether clades like DF27, L21 occurred before they pooled in certain areas. In fact there is a good case IMO. I am not too bothered as to whether it was L21 or pre-L21, DF27 or pre-DF27. Lines are lines even before the SNP defining SNP occurs. I would say on balance I do believe DF27 may have occurred elsewhere before pooling in Iberia.

DF27 is important to any notion that P312 was present in western corded ware groups. Its important because beaker is early in Iberia and if early beaker single burials in Iberia are spin offs of corded ware then a subset of DF27 would have had to have made the break for Iberia by 2700BC if not earlier. Some people have suggested DF27 is old in P312 terms. If its old enough then only a subset of DF27 need have gone to Iberia. The notion that ever early beaker burials in Iberia could be a derivative of corded ware is a new one on me but very interesting. Also might explain why early Iberian beaker people didnt tend to have the brachycephalic skulls - if they came from a mix of a small corded ware derived intrusion and local farmers then they would be dolichocephalic. The Brachycephalic skull type seems to have only become attached to beaker in central Europe and NW Europe c. 2500BC and must be some sort of hybrid or just an almost family quirk. However, I dont put too much weight on crania as there are an awful lot of variables involved.

The way I am now thinking is that P312 originated in corded ware but that an offshoot of it into Iberia created the beaker culture blending corded ware and Iberian cultural traits. They then expanded along southern France, up the west of France and also into the western Alps c. 2600BC. IMO somewhere in the Rhine-Rhone zone could have been the sort of area where the circle was completed and they almost returned to the point of their origin. Its even possible that they could have still spoken the same language (the separation was only a century or so) which would have aided interaction.

alan
01-09-2015, 04:50 PM
I admit this was very wooly speculation given the sheer amount of things that can affect ANE totals between then and now but nevertheless if beaker was the thing that brought both ANE and L21 to the isles then ANE levels clearly point to a beaker group from the Low Countries/north France simply because ANE levels are comparable between there and the isles and significantly lower in areas dominated by other P312 clades concentrated in the Alps/west-central Europe and southern Europe. Its not at all surprising and fits the archaeology but nevertheless its very hard to collar anything other than L21 as bring the high ANE to the celtic fringes of the isles because it so dominant. Its also hard to see this as having got that dominance from anything other than first-in advantage and command of the coasts of the Lower Rhine and English Channel. This doesnt totally nail down the L21 story but it does indicate that by the time the isles were settled that L21 folks had comparable ANE to the whole northern European plain and must have surely lived in that zone for at least several generations prior to arriving in the isles by the 2400s. It seems very unlikely on that basis that L21 came up the west coast from Iberia and Atlantic coast of France to the isles.

alan
01-09-2015, 05:03 PM
To put it another way if Neolithic people were Sardinian-like in the isles as they seem to have been across Europe then the present isles mix,including and indeed especially the Celtic fringers, must have had a major post-Neolithic input with a lot of WHG and ANE. That sort of pattern seems to simply have to be down to an intrusion from northerly parts of Europe. The fact that the Celts are even higher in WHG and ANE than the English shows that this was a prehistoric phenomenon. Generally speaking the modern Celtic fringe is rather remote from the continent and later waves of settlement. This change in autosomal DNA to its modern form almost has to have been down to L21 in areas where there is little else in the way of post-Neolithic yDNA. So I am pretty confident that L21 was behind the major changes in the autosomal DNA between the Neolithic and today in the Celtic fringe. Hixton seems to be further evidence of Irish-like L21 autosomal DNA in the Iron Age in SE England.

alan
01-09-2015, 05:09 PM
I suppose the deeper question is where were there populations capable of bringing a lot of WHG and ANE into the prehistoric isles dwellers in levels similar to much of modern northern Europe in post-Neolithic times? We suspect that in Neolithic times the farmers were very Sardinian like. It will be interesting to get some more ancient autosomal from steppe and corded ware people. Corded Ware is partly steppe derivative. If the higher WHG and ANE we find after the Neolithic didnt come from the steppes then its kind of hard to see where it did come from. Not too many populations who have carried high WHG and ANE around 3000BC if ancient DNA is anything to go by.

Krefter
01-09-2015, 09:42 PM
Alan, WHG is the component which varies the least in Europe, everyone except Greeks and south Italians have alot of it(and they have much more than middle easterns). The WHG difference between Spain and Britain is a mere 5-7% or so. The main difference between Europeans is near eastern and ANE.

Laz 2014 confused people because EEF masked so much WHG in south Europeans.

Also all late Neolithic/Copper age pre-IE samples from Europe have as much WHG as north Europeans, except Otzei. They were about 75% Sardinian-like and 25% Loschbour-like. The reason all EEFs appeared Sardinian-like to early studies is because they didn't know ANE is what caused the confusion. Any Europeans, even Lithuanians, if you suck out their ANE and replace it with near eastern will appear Sardinian-like.

"ANE K8 oracles for Euros, using ancient Euros and modern Middle easterns"

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3694-ANE-K8-oracles-for-Euros-using-ancient-Euros-and-modern-Middle-easterns

Krefter
01-09-2015, 09:47 PM
My point in the previous post is that late Neolithic/Copper age pre-IE genomes show Yamna was not the cause of a WHG-rise. It's true that northern Europeans need extra WHG to explain their high Yamna ancestry, but maybe they mixed with HGs like Ajv58 who also had ANE.

Lithuanians can fit pretty well as a mix of Motala12/Loschbour and Yamna, which probably means there were alot of mostly-HG people running around in eastern and northern Europe when Yamna invaded. Maybe Corded ware was a mix of mostly-HG natives and Yamna, and then spread both gene pools into western Europe, which can explain high WHG in the British isles.

alan
01-09-2015, 10:06 PM
I must admit, although I have thought about it, there is practically no evidence for hunter-gatherers living in parallel with farmers in the isles and certainly no evidence for hunters surviving 2500 years of farmers in their locality only to suddenly mixed with the farmers at the end of the Neolithic. So, it kind of hard to see how the WHG could have come from local hunters. Its possible the archaeological and ancient DNA evidence has just not been uncovered but right now the evidence for hunters hanging around locally at the fringes of the farmers for vast periods of time is lacking in the isles. If the local hunters went the way of the Dodo soon after farming arrived then they cannot have been responsible for today's WHG levels in the isles.

alan
01-09-2015, 10:08 PM
My point in the previous post is that late Neolithic/Copper age pre-IE genomes show Yamna was not the cause of a WHG-rise. It's true that northern Europeans need extra WHG to explain their high Yamna ancestry, but maybe they mixed with HGs like Ajv58 who also had ANE.

Lithuanians can fit pretty well as a mix of Motala12/Loschbour and Yamna, which probably means there were alot of mostly-HG people running around in eastern and northern Europe when Yamna invaded. Maybe Corded ware was a mix of mostly-HG natives and Yamna, and then spread both gene pools into western Europe, which can explain high WHG in the British isles.

That does make sense around the Baltic and Scandinavia where hunter cultures long survived but in the isles the archaeological evidence at the moment appears to suggest that the local hunters disappeared almost at the same time the farmers arrived. So, in the isles and indeed much of western Europe we dont have comparable late surviving hunter groups.

Krefter
01-09-2015, 11:10 PM
That does make sense around the Baltic and Scandinavia where hunter cultures long survived but in the isles the archaeological evidence at the moment appears to suggest that the local hunters disappeared almost at the same time the farmers arrived. So, in the isles and indeed much of western Europe we dont have comparable late surviving hunter groups.

Davidski at Eurogenes, who knows some stuff about archaeology and of course autosomal genetics, has said several times there's no denying western Europe was mostly repopulated by IEs who came from bronze age east-central Europe. So, we don't need HG gene dominance in pre-IE west Europeans(They did have alot of WHG though), if when IEs arrived they had already picked up alot of WHG in eastern Europe.

Hopefully Reich will post his paper online in the next month or so. He and his colleges have already come out saying Yamna caused a genetic turnover in Europe, which can only be compared to when near eastern farmers came. Reich said that Yamna can't explain all ANE in Europe, but that it looks like they can pin point most of the bronze age genetic shift to Yamna.

alan
01-10-2015, 02:55 AM
Davidski at Eurogenes, who knows some stuff about archaeology and of course autosomal genetics, has said several times there's no denying western Europe was mostly repopulated by IEs who came from bronze age east-central Europe. So, we don't need HG gene dominance in pre-IE west Europeans(They did have alot of WHG though), if when IEs arrived they had already picked up alot of WHG in eastern Europe.

Hopefully Reich will post his paper online in the next month or so. He and his colleges have already come out saying Yamna caused a genetic turnover in Europe, which can only be compared to when near eastern farmers came. Reich said that Yamna can't explain all ANE in Europe, but that it looks like they can pin point most of the bronze age genetic shift to Yamna.

ANE seems to have 3 origins. There was a limited Mesolithic spread into the Baltic, Scandinavia and adjacent. We have ancient DNA evidence of this and possibly might be linked with the spread of pressure flaked microblades into the same area c. 9000BC or so. Similar cultures spread into the Ukraine also in the Mesolithic. However these cultures do not seem to have spread west of a line between Denmark and the Dniester. So a limited part of Europe seems to have had ANE in pre-Neolithic times. However this does not seem to have expanded and farmers without ANE seem to have then taken much of Europe. Only in in the copper age do we see movements from the ancient ANE parts of Europe westwards. So IMO in the bulk of Europe other than the east and north-east and Scandinvia ANE is post-Neolithic. It simply must have been spread primarily with the R1 lineages. Judging by the Sardinian-like Neolithic and even early copper age autosomal dna it seems a virtual certainty that a significant gene-flow from the east did happen in post-Neoithic times. The only places in Europe with groups that appear to have had a substantial non-farming or very late or tentative to farming background appear to me to be the steppe and NE Europe. Corded ware is interesting in that not only did it have steppe roots but it also passed into and through the NE Europe area which is the only other area that had late hunter populations. This shift would seem to have been much lesser in southern Europe except perhaps the SE. IMO its clear that the changes to DNA after the Neolithic in the isles and NW Europe come from a fairly northerly movement from the east. It just cannot be explained any other way.