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Kurd
01-10-2015, 01:46 AM
Although present day Kurds are genetically closest to Iranians based on autosomal DNA, an analysis of Y DNA and mtDNA data presented in various papers painted a slightly different ancestral picture.

My analysis involves haplogroups that generally exhibit higher frequencies in South Asian Populations, to show that there is an ancestral affinity of approximately 35% of the sampled Kurds to various South Asian groups such as the Sindhi, Gujrati, Kalash, Hunza/Burusho, Pathan, Baluch, Brahui, etc.

I have performed mtDNA analysis of the Kurds, based on the data presented in a couple of papers. My Y DNA analysis will revolve around R1a1a and other Haplotypes which show elevated frequencies among Kurds and South Asians. I hope to post it in a week or so.

My mtDNA analysis involves haplogroups that generally exhibit higher frequencies in South Asian Populations, to show that there is an ancestral affinity of approximately 35% of the sampled Kurds to various South Asian groups such as the Sindhi, Gujrati, Kalash, Hunza/Burusho, Pathan, Baluch, Brahui, etc. based on mtDNA.

I have compiled the data into various diagrams and tables as shown below.

My analysis is based on the following papers:



Grugni et al (2012) study of Y-chromosome variations in Iran http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252#pone-0041252-g001 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252#pone-0041252-g001);

Lacau et al. (2012), titled “ Afghanistan from a Y-chromosome perspective” , http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n10/full/ejhg201259a.html (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n10/full/ejhg201259a.html);

Sengupta et al (2005), “Y-chromosome distributions in India”, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/);

Behar et al (2004), “Where West Meets East: The Complex mtDNA Landscape of the
Southwest and Central Asian Corridor.”




MtDNA Haplogroup W [4]
(A rare haplogroup, which is my dad’s maternal Haplogroup)





No.


Population


%


1

Sindhi (SE Pakistan)

17.4



2

Kurds

10



3

Mazendarian

9.5



4

Gujrati (NW India)

8.8



5

Caucus (Georgians Balkarians & Chechens)

5.3



6

Pathans

4.5



7

Shugnan (Tajikstan)

4.5



8

Azerbaijan (E & W)

2.5



9

Persian (Central & S. Central Iran)

2.4



10

Uzbek

2.4



11

Hunza/Burusho (N. Pakistan)

2.3



12

Pakistan (SE)

1



13

Turkey (Anatolia)

0




MtDNA Haplogroup U7 [4]




No.


Population


%


1

Kurds

20



2

Gilaki (N. Iran)

10.8



3

Brahui (SW Pakistan)

10.5



4

Gujrati (NW India)

8.8



5

Sindhi (SE Pakistan)

8.7



6

Hunza/Burusho (N. Pakistan)

6.8



7

Lurs (Predominantly Kurds)

5.9



8

Pakistan (SE)

5



9

Uzbek

4.8



10

Hazara (NW Pakistan)

4.3



11

Makrani (SW Pakistan)

3



12

Baluch (SW Pakistan)

2.6



13

Azerbaijan

2.5



14

Persian (Central & S. Central)

2.4



15

Kalash (N. Pakistan)

2.3



16

Parsi (SE Pakistan)

2.3



17

Turkey (Anatolia)

2



18

Caucus

0





MtDNA Haplogroup HV2 [4]




No.


Population


%


1

Baluch

10.7



2

Parsi

9.1



3

Gilaki

8.1



4

Makrani

6.1



5

Lur (Predominantly Kurd)

5.9



6

Kurds

5



7

Sindhi

4.3



8

Turkmenistan

2.4



9

Uzbek

2.4



10

Persian (S. Central Iran)

2.4



11

Turkey

0



12

Caucus

0




Although the Kurds presently show a tight genetic affinity with the Iranian groups, the foregoing analysis, clearly showed that ~ 35% of the Kurds sampled had an ancestral affinity to populations in present day Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India.
The following three scenarios present themselves:


The haplotypes originated in Kurdistan;

The haplotypes originated in Pakistan/India;

The haplotypes originated between Kurdistan and Pakistan.

Based on the frequencies of the haplotypes in those populations, combined with the spatial distribution of the groups, I believe scenarios b or c are more plausible, namely that the common ancestors of the sampled Kurds, Gujrati, Sindhi, Hunza, Kalash, Pathan, etc. originated from regions in South or South Central Asia.

DMXX
01-10-2015, 02:23 AM
What steps are undertaken in your analyses? If it's primarily oriented around frequency (as the above indicates) then the final results will likely be misleading. Frequency by itself isn't indication of very much other than (possible) founder effects (even then some sort of quantitative measure of diversity is required).

This was the grand lesson learned by Y-DNA R1b enthusiasts several years ago, who were misled by the great frequency (>80%) of downstream R1b-L23 subclades in Western Europe and presumed a local origin there. We now know that wasn't the case. The baseline interpretation of uniparental markers have improved a lot since then.

Besides, Kurds do not rest in any remarkable position relative to South Asia than Iranians. On the contrary, both autosomal ("South Asian" ADMIXTURE component) and uniparental markers (Y-DNA H and mtDNA M) which are considered quintessentially autochthonous to the Indian subcontinent are higher in Iranians than Kurds.

I do find it curious you arrived at a figure of 35% for your estimation of genetic overlap between Kurds and South-Central Asians, as it's reasonably close to the range of values Iranians and Kurds tended to have towards S-C Asians when Armenians were modelled as a primary donor population (PDP) for those two groups (http://vaedhya.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/anchored-in-armenia-exercise-in-genetic.html).

[Edit]: Just realised the 35% figure came from adding up the Kurdish frequencies for mtDNA W, U7 and HV2. This looks like an erroneous interpretation of genetic data (uniparental marker frequencies to calculate overall affinity to a given region), chiefly because this approach is governed by arbitrarily defined prior assumptions (where did the mtDNA haplogroups arise? Overlap in subclade between Kurds and S-C Asians? Any definitive proof there's an exceptional relationship Iranians don't fit into? etc.).

[Second edit]: Please don't read any of the above as a discouragement - The lineages you've specified certainly do exhibit overlap between West and South-Central Asia and any developments in understanding the interrelation between Kurdish U7 and S-C Asian U7 f.ex. would be exceedingly useful. We just can't rely on interpretations from frequencies. You're also using informative papers. If you're interested in more data (certainly wouldn't hurt your research), please give us an indication.

Kurd
01-10-2015, 03:28 AM
What steps are undertaken in your analyses? If it's primarily oriented around frequency (as the above indicates) then the final results will likely be misleading. Frequency by itself isn't indication of very much other than (possible) founder effects (even then some sort of quantitative measure of diversity is required).

This was the grand lesson learned by Y-DNA R1b enthusiasts several years ago, who were misled by the great frequency (>80%) of downstream R1b-L23 subclades in Western Europe and presumed a local origin there. We now know that wasn't the case. The baseline interpretation of uniparental markers have improved a lot since then.

Besides, Kurds do not rest in any remarkable position relative to South Asia than Iranians. On the contrary, both autosomal ("South Asian" ADMIXTURE component) and uniparental markers (Y-DNA H and mtDNA M) which are considered quintessentially autochthonous to the Indian subcontinent are higher in Iranians than Kurds.

I do find it curious you arrived at a figure of 35% for your estimation of genetic overlap between Kurds and South-Central Asians, as it's reasonably close to the range of values Iranians and Kurds tended to have towards S-C Asians when Armenians were modelled as a primary donor population (PDP) for those two groups (http://vaedhya.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/anchored-in-armenia-exercise-in-genetic.html).

[Edit]: Just realised the 35% figure came from adding up the Kurdish frequencies for mtDNA W, U7 and HV2. This looks like an erroneous interpretation of genetic data (uniparental marker frequencies to calculate overall affinity to a given region), chiefly because this approach is governed by arbitrarily defined prior assumptions (where did the mtDNA haplogroups arise? Overlap in subclade between Kurds and S-C Asians? Any definitive proof there's an exceptional relationship Iranians don't fit into? etc.).

Thanks for the input.


Besides, Kurds do not rest in any remarkable position relative to South Asia than Iranians. On the contrary, both autosomal ("South Asian" ADMIXTURE component) and uniparental markers (Y-DNA H and mtDNA M) which are considered quintessentially autochthonous to the Indian subcontinent are higher in Iranians than Kurds



I did not compare positions of Iranian & Kurd vs. South Asian. That was not my goal. I merely wanted to show that 35% of the sampled Kurds shared uniparental mtDNA markers with South Asian groups through haplogroups generally having high frequencies in SC and S Asians vs. West Asians.


This looks like an erroneous interpretation of genetic data (uniparental marker frequencies to calculate overall affinity to a given region), chiefly because this approach is governed by arbitrarily defined prior assumptions


The affinity is to the South Asian group, and not necessarily a particular region. Additional information is needed for an affinity with a particular geographic region with a high percentage of confidence. That being said, my goal was to show that a substantial percentage of Kurd mtDNA is not associated with mtDNA generally understood to have origins in regions west and north of Iran.

Humanist
01-10-2015, 03:32 AM
Kurd. Regarding U7, I would recommend checking out the following thread: U7 Frequencies From Some Sources (U7 ≥ .5%) (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?506-U7-Frequencies-From-Some-Sources-(U7-%26%238805%3B-5-))

It is true that U7 is found at high levels (relatively speaking) among Kurds (and several other Indo-Iranian speaking groups). However, it is also found at high frequencies among Assyrians and Iranian Jews. And at modest levels among several Arab groups. It is even found in the isolated Samaritans of Israel, and in a few populations of Europe, such as Bulgarians and Tuscans. Thus, I am not sure I would agree with the assignment of a "South Asian" origin for all of the U7 observed in Kurds. What is needed is further study of U7 (ideally full mtDNA sequences), before making such estimations regarding possible origins.

Kurd
01-10-2015, 04:29 AM
What steps are undertaken in your analyses? If it's primarily oriented around frequency (as the above indicates) then the final results will likely be misleading. Frequency by itself isn't indication of very much other than (possible) founder effects (even then some sort of quantitative measure of diversity is required).

This was the grand lesson learned by Y-DNA R1b enthusiasts several years ago, who were misled by the great frequency (>80%) of downstream R1b-L23 subclades in Western Europe and presumed a local origin there. We now know that wasn't the case. The baseline interpretation of uniparental markers have improved a lot since then.

Besides, Kurds do not rest in any remarkable position relative to South Asia than Iranians. On the contrary, both autosomal ("South Asian" ADMIXTURE component) and uniparental markers (Y-DNA H and mtDNA M) which are considered quintessentially autochthonous to the Indian subcontinent are higher in Iranians than Kurds.

I do find it curious you arrived at a figure of 35% for your estimation of genetic overlap between Kurds and South-Central Asians, as it's reasonably close to the range of values Iranians and Kurds tended to have towards S-C Asians when Armenians were modelled as a primary donor population (PDP) for those two groups (http://vaedhya.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/anchored-in-armenia-exercise-in-genetic.html).

[Edit]: Just realised the 35% figure came from adding up the Kurdish frequencies for mtDNA W, U7 and HV2. This looks like an erroneous interpretation of genetic data (uniparental marker frequencies to calculate overall affinity to a given region), chiefly because this approach is governed by arbitrarily defined prior assumptions (where did the mtDNA haplogroups arise? Overlap in subclade between Kurds and S-C Asians? Any definitive proof there's an exceptional relationship Iranians don't fit into? etc.).

[Second edit]: Please don't read any of the above as a discouragement - The lineages you've specified certainly do exhibit overlap between West and South-Central Asia and any developments in understanding the interrelation between Kurdish U7 and S-C Asian U7 f.ex. would be exceedingly useful. We just can't rely on interpretations from frequencies. You're also using informative papers. If you're interested in more data (certainly wouldn't hurt your research), please give us an indication.


If you're interested in more data (certainly wouldn't hurt your research), please give us an indication.


Sure, if you come across any other informative papers that target SC or S Asian Y or mtDNA, I would appreciate sending me a link. I will be looking at studying overlapping West and SC Asian Y DNA in the near future.

Kurd
01-10-2015, 04:36 AM
Kurd. Regarding U7, I would recommend checking out the following thread: U7 Frequencies From Some Sources (U7 ≥ .5%) (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?506-U7-Frequencies-From-Some-Sources-(U7-%26%238805%3B-5-))

It is true that U7 is found at high levels (relatively speaking) among Kurds (and several other Indo-Iranian speaking groups). However, it is also found at high frequencies among Assyrians and Iranian Jews. And at modest levels among several Arab groups. It is even found in the isolated Samaritans of Israel, and in a few populations of Europe, such as Bulgarians and Tuscans. Thus, I am not sure I would agree with the assignment of a "South Asian" origin for all of the U7 observed in Kurds. What is needed is further study of U7 (ideally full mtDNA sequences), before making such estimations regarding possible origins.

Thanks, I was searching for middle eastern U7. Do you know of any papers that have addressed U7 origin?