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Krefter
01-11-2015, 12:43 PM
I have been very frustrated with how academics and amateurs online view ancient mtDNA. To most what really matter is the frequency of large and old haplogroups, such as H and U, compared to modern people which is plain ridiculous. This has caused many to make wrong conclusions about ancient people based on their mtDNA. For example many believe Bell beaker from Germany was mostly Iberian-like because of its high frequency of mtDNA H, but if you look more deeply into it's mtDNA you'll see it's very similar to German Corded ware, Unetice, Bronze age Pontic Steppe, and Bronze age central Asia.

All we have to learn about ancient mtDNA is "Ancestral Journeys (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml)", which only gives the haplogroup label of samples, year, era, and cultural affinity. We don't know what extra mutations each sample had, haplogroup frequencies, haplotypes in ancient mtDNA, and Ancestral Journeys is wrong on some of its haplogroup labels. It is impossible to compare ancient mtDNA to modern mtDNA in any meaningful way using Ancestral Journeys. Enthusiasts online are kept in the dark when it comes to ancient mtDNA, because of a lack of convenient resources.

Because of those reasons I created "Ancient mtDNA package", which has every Upper Palaeolithic-Bronze age mtDNA sample on Ancestral Journeys(except for a few), fully analysed.

EDIT 7 hours later: I understand the old link I gave has limited access. This new one though gives you full access, and you can even download it into a word document and save it on your computer.

Ancient mtDNA package (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qTizIyzlsbGl3hVxFO0BMfl58Kd2qLQXhglk4jeDCBg/edit)

There are 6 sections in the Ancient mtDNA package:

1.Ancient mtDNA reference: This is a spreadsheet with all the samples I analysed accorded to age(except for hunter gatherers) and or region. I enbolded likely founder effects in the same color. I only considered samples from the same site as possible founder effects.

The last section of the spreadsheet is "Likely false results".They're all from old studies. I kept them in the spreadsheet so we will at least consider they may have some validity. I'm suspicious many of the samples from Iberia in general, which are mostly from old studies, have false results.

2.Haplogroup Frequencies: This has a spreadsheet showing haplogroup frequencies for every subgroup in "Ancient mtDNA reference". I only put frequencies for haplogroups which can be defined by HV1, or CR if the vast majority of samples from that section were tested for a specific CR SNP.

3.Map of Haplogroup Frequences: Here I show haplogroup frequencies on a map.

4.Haplotypes: In this file every haplotype in "Ancient mtDNA reference" are presented on Google documents.

5.Map of Haplotype: In this File I have a map of the haplotypes for every haplogroup. I only display haplotypes which are shared between more than one sample. I don't treat popular haplogroups, such as U5 as haplotypes.

6.Sources: In this File are all my sources. It also has all my personal notes, which will probably be hard to understand.

I'll continuously edit the Ancient mtDNA package as new samples come in, and as I think of better ways to present ancient mtDNA. I will also use this method with modern mtDNA, so that we can directly compare it to ancient mtDNA. I think this will be the new way people will look at mtDNA in general, because it's the most detailed way possible.

I suggest everyone who is interested in human prehistory put this on their Google Drive or Download it to Microsoft office.

EDIT 1 hour later: I understand that some of my labels are inconstant. For example sometimes I call Mid-Late Neolithic Central Europe, Late Neolithic Central Europe. Often I abbreviated culture names on the maps. I can't correct some of my inconsistencies, and so hopefully anyone who reads it will be able to still understand the information.

BTW, don't forget to use Ctrl+F.

Krefter
01-11-2015, 08:34 PM
Something interesting I noticed looking at ancient mtDNA, is that all the various cultures from Neolithic Central Europe ranging some 2,000 years had mtDNA which is hard to distinguish from each other. Funnel beaker and Bernberg have more typical WHG mtDNA(U5b) than earlier Neolithic cultures and lack N1a1a, but that's it. Bronze age east Europeans though had a totally different mtDNA structure.

Brandt. 2013 sampled the same region of Germany ranging the Mesolithic-Bronze age, and the only obvious change after the Neolithic occurs in the Bronze age with Corded ware, Bell beaker, and Unetice cultures. All three have obvious EHG(east European hunter gatherer) mtDNA and share other haplotypes(T1a, W6, J2b, J1b1a1, N1a1b) with Bronze age east Europeans that are either non-existent in Neolithic Central Europe or very very rare.

Add to this with genomic evidence that Bronze age Germans were mostly of Yamna origin, ANE ancestry, Y DNA R1, there's no disputing a massive East European migration into western Europe during the Bronze age.

Bronze age Central Asians look like they also were of mostly Bronze age east European maternal heritage, suggesting a related people also migrated east into Asia. It's incredible how archaeology and linguistics are matching up with DNA so nicely.

Krefter
01-11-2015, 08:43 PM
BTW, here's a life-like reconstruction of Mesolithic Europeans; Loschbour; who had mtDNA pre-U5b1a and Y DNA pre-I2a1b. We know what hair-eye-skin color he had, so this is probably very realistic.

http://blobsvc.wort.lu/picture/bbea9ba55a019d57bf5c0fec43eaf82a/519/291/wortv3/2334d8c5a0f081505ce8892d640c37f1965fa43c

All but 3 samples from European hunter gatherers belonged to mtDNA U, and two are probably from east Asian admixture.

If I had to guess on what mtDNA clades are of ANE origin, I would say U4 and U2e(and various U2 clades in south and west Asia). The U5a in Mesolithic east Europe and the Baltic is probably of WHG origin, because most U5 from central Europe's first farmers was U5a, and they lacked ANE ancestry. U4 was also found in one sample from Neolithic Hungary, but still I think it can be associated more with ANE than U5a.

I wouldn't be suprised if U8(inclu. K), U7, U3, U1, U2, U6, etc. in the Middle east and south Asia are connected to their WHG and ANE-like ancestry. ~38,000 year old Russian K-14, belonged to U2-his own basal clade, and was mostly from an ancestral clade of ANE and WHG. mtDNA U might be the ANE-WHG lineage.

Anglecynn
01-11-2015, 08:48 PM
Fascinating reconstruction. He looks a bit like a northern European mixed with a central Asian, but much more robust.

Krefter
01-11-2015, 08:53 PM
Fascinating reconstruction. He looks a bit like a northern European mixed with a central Asian, but much more robust.

His skull is very exotic and non-Caucasoid looking to me. Loschbour's reconstruction could pass as someone with a serious tan in Europe today, maybe there are alot of WHG facial features around. today.

Krefter
01-11-2015, 08:57 PM
Maybe someone will do a reconstruction of Stuttgart. It'd be interesting if there are well-persevered skulls from MA-1's people, so we can have an idea what WHG and ANE people looked like. I'm sure there are well persevered skulls from the Neolithic Near east, who can represent "Near eastern" ancestry.

Krefter
01-11-2015, 11:25 PM
I'm defiantly going to put this interesting EHG and Yamna-type mtDNA from Neolithic and Bronze age Siberia into the ancient mtDNA package eventually.

file:///C:/Users/hp/Downloads/9783110266306.93.pdf

By glaring at mutations I didn't see any U5a2a, but I did see U2e1b, U5a1a'g, U5a1h, U5a2c3(or U5a2d1), and U5a1d2b.

jeanL
01-11-2015, 11:47 PM
What makes you think that the results from Linatzeta Cave are "likely false"?

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Lacanetal2011-Table-9.jpg (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Lacanetal2011-Table-9.jpg.html)

By the way if you are wondering what "CT" means in the case of HV-C14766T, it means that it tested for both alleles C and T, which likely means that the result if contaminated, hence why it is testing for both alleles. Now Linatzeta is spot on indicating HV=>H, granted is only based on a single defining mutation for HV and H, but at the same time the likelihood that this haplogroup isn't H would mean that is a nonH haplogroup which is negative for 12308 and 3197 which define U and U5, is also negative for T, K. So I'm willing to bet that it is an H result, even with the 2 SNPs only. Also this was the only sample that was tested for every single SNPs.

Holy shit!!! I just realized something, they tested it for the LP-13910 mutation, I missed the damn column, and it was C/C, so the Mesolithic Basque sample was likely lactose intolerant. I can't believe I hadn't notice this before!

So the one sample from 6000 BC in the Basque country was 13910-C/C, yet in 3000 BC the Southern part of the Basque Country was already showing a good amount of T/T folks. Pre-Beaker site from SJAPL, Southern Alava dating to 3000 BC yields 13/19 C/C, 4/19 T/T, and 2/19 T/C, Longar 2500 BC in Navarra 1/7 T/T and 6/7 C/C.

Krefter
01-12-2015, 12:22 AM
What makes you think that the results from Linatzeta Cave are "likely false"?

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Lacanetal2011-Table-9.jpg (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Lacanetal2011-Table-9.jpg.html)

By the way if you are wondering what "CT" means in the case of HV-C14766T, it means that it tested for both alleles C and T, which likely means that the result if contaminated, hence why it is testing for both alleles. Now Linatzeta is spot on indicating HV=>H, granted is only based on a single defining mutation for HV and H, but at the same time the likelihood that this haplogroup isn't H would mean that is a nonH haplogroup which is negative for 12308 and 3197 which define U and U5, is also negative for T, K. So I'm willing to bet that it is an H result, even with the 2 SNPs only. Also this was the only sample that was tested for every single SNPs.

Holy shit!!! I just realized something, they tested it for the LP-13910 mutation, I missed the damn column, and it was C/C, so the Mesolithic Basque sample was likely lactose intolerant. I can't believe I hadn't notice this before!

So the one sample from 6000 BC in the Basque country was 13910-C/C, yet in 3000 BC the Southern part of the Basque Country was already showing a good amount of T/T folks. Pre-Beaker site from SJAPL, Southern Alava dating to 3000 BC yields 13/19 C/C, 4/19 T/T, and 2/19 T/C, Longar 2500 BC in Navarra 1/7 T/T and 6/7 C/C.

I was wondering what LP stood for.

I think that study has false results because it is totally inconsistent with recent studies and has contradicting calls. Many of those samples are positive for U and H, and whatever else. Close to 40% of the samples from Neolithic Basque and Navarre Spain have R*(xR0, U5, U4, U2, JT, etc.), which is out of the ordinary for any west Eurasian population. There's a streak of L3, N, or M samples from Neolithic and Mesolithic Iberia, and their only similarity is they come from the same old studies.

There are several shared haplotypes across ages in old studies from Iberia and Ukraine, which were not found in recent studies in the same region.

In the next few years as Mesolithic genomes and mtDNA come in from Iberia, I bet it'll pretty much all be U and WHG. But I'm ready for a surprise.

jeanL
01-12-2015, 12:49 AM
I think that study has false results because it is totally inconsistent with recent studies and has contradicting calls. Many of those samples are positive for U and H, and whatever else. Close to 40% of the samples from Neolithic Basque and Navarre Spain have R*(xR0, U5, U4, U2, JT, etc.), which is out of the ordinary for any west Eurasian population. There's a streak of L3, N, or M samples from Neolithic and Mesolithic Iberia, and their only similarity is they come from the same old studies.

The Linatzeta results do not have contradicting calls. Now one thing to remember is that the mt-DNA haplogroups in Northern Europe in the post-Ice Age period would be but a subset of those in Southern Europe. I'm certain that the Linatzeta results are 100% real, in fact the C/C in the LP-13910 is in line with other WHGs such as Loschbour and La Braņa.

Krefter
01-12-2015, 01:21 AM
The Linatzeta results do not have contradicting calls. Now one thing to remember is that the mt-DNA haplogroups in Northern Europe in the post-Ice Age period would be but a subset of those in Southern Europe. I'm certain that the Linatzeta results are 100% real, in fact the C/C in the LP-13910 is in line with other WHGs such as Loschbour and La Braņa.

There are contradicting calls, but that doesn't mean they are false positives. You could be right which is why I still have those samples on my spreadsheet.

Unless all of southern Europe was connected via the Mediterranean sea in pre-Neolithic times, there's a low chance they were closely related. Mesolithic north European's ancestors came from southern Europe. La Brana-1, K01, and Loschbour are all basically the same thing.

I suspect that mtDNA U is the sole maternal lineage of the WHG-ANE branch. So, if Mesolithic Iberians had some non-U, they may have had non-WHG-ANE-type ancestry.

jeanL
01-12-2015, 02:24 AM
Unless all of southern Europe was connected via the Mediterranean sea in pre-Neolithic times, there's a low chance they were closely related. Mesolithic north European's ancestors came from southern Europe. La Brana-1, K01, and Loschbour are all basically the same thing.

I suspect that mtDNA U is the sole maternal lineage of the WHG-ANE branch. So, if Mesolithic Iberians had some non-U, they may have had non-WHG-ANE-type ancestry.

You seem to miss the fact that K01 whose mt-DNA Haplogroup was R3 appears thus far to be very similar to La Braņa, perhaps it is an artifact of the low coverage, but well, it is something to keep in mind. Also what about the Pagliacci mitochondrial dna results?

Krefter
01-12-2015, 02:54 AM
You seem to miss the fact that K01 whose mt-DNA Haplogroup was R3 appears thus far to be very similar to La Braņa, perhaps it is an artifact of the low coverage, but well, it is something to keep in mind. Also what about the Pagliacci mitochondrial dna results?

K01, La Brana-1, and Loschbour are all WHG. There's no south-north divide.

Artmar
01-12-2015, 08:31 AM
Either maps are not working for some reason or I did something wrong. Great work, anyway!

Hando
01-12-2015, 04:06 PM
Something interesting I noticed looking at ancient mtDNA, is that all the various cultures from Neolithic Central Europe ranging some 2,000 years had mtDNA which is hard to distinguish from each other. Funnel beaker and Bernberg have more typical WHG mtDNA(U5b) than earlier Neolithic cultures and lack N1a1a, but that's it. Bronze age east Europeans though had a totally different mtDNA structure.

Brandt. 2013 sampled the same region of Germany ranging the Mesolithic-Bronze age, and the only obvious change after the Neolithic occurs in the Bronze age with Corded ware, Bell beaker, and Unetice cultures. All three have obvious EHG(east European hunter gatherer) mtDNA and share other haplotypes(T1a, W6, J2b, J1b1a1, N1a1b) with Bronze age east Europeans that are either non-existent in Neolithic Central Europe or very very rare.

Add to this with genomic evidence that Bronze age Germans were mostly of Yamna origin, ANE ancestry, Y DNA R1, there's no disputing a massive East European migration into western Europe during the Bronze age.

Bronze age Central Asians look like they also were of mostly Bronze age east European maternal heritage, suggesting a related people also migrated east into Asia. It's incredible how archaeology and linguistics are matching up with DNA so nicely.
Were the haploytpes I've bolded belong to Neolithic farmers or mesolithic eastern hunter gatherers?

Hando
01-12-2015, 04:11 PM
BTW, here's a life-like reconstruction of Mesolithic Europeans; Loschbour; who had mtDNA pre-U5b1a and Y DNA pre-I2a1b. We know what hair-eye-skin color he had, so this is probably very realistic.

http://blobsvc.wort.lu/picture/bbea9ba55a019d57bf5c0fec43eaf82a/519/291/wortv3/2334d8c5a0f081505ce8892d640c37f1965fa43c

All but 3 samples from European hunter gatherers belonged to mtDNA U, and two are probably from east Asian admixture.

If I had to guess on what mtDNA clades are of ANE origin, I would say U4 and U2e(and various U2 clades in south and west Asia). The U5a in Mesolithic east Europe and the Baltic is probably of WHG origin, because most U5 from central Europe's first farmers was U5a, and they lacked ANE ancestry. U4 was also found in one sample from Neolithic Hungary, but still I think it can be associated more with ANE than U5a.

I wouldn't be suprised if U8(inclu. K), U7, U3, U1, U2, U6, etc. in the Middle east and south Asia are connected to their WHG and ANE-like ancestry. ~38,000 year old Russian K-14, belonged to U2-his own basal clade, and was mostly from an ancestral clade of ANE and WHG. mtDNA U might be the ANE-WHG lineage.
How did the East Asian samples get into European mesolithic hunter gatherers? Were they east asian in the modern East Asian population sense? I did not know modern East Asians admixed with WHG during the mesolithic. What percentage?
Also, I though mesolithic WHG were dark skinned and looked somewhat similar to Aborigines, but your photo depicts someone who looks like a typical modern day northern European.

Hando
01-12-2015, 04:16 PM
BTW, here's a life-like reconstruction of Mesolithic Europeans; Loschbour; who had mtDNA pre-U5b1a and Y DNA pre-I2a1b. We know what hair-eye-skin color he had, so this is probably very realistic.

http://blobsvc.wort.lu/picture/bbea9ba55a019d57bf5c0fec43eaf82a/519/291/wortv3/2334d8c5a0f081505ce8892d640c37f1965fa43c

All but 3 samples from European hunter gatherers belonged to mtDNA U, and two are probably from east Asian admixture.

If I had to guess on what mtDNA clades are of ANE origin, I would say U4 and U2e(and various U2 clades in south and west Asia). The U5a in Mesolithic east Europe and the Baltic is probably of WHG origin, because most U5 from central Europe's first farmers was U5a, and they lacked ANE ancestry. U4 was also found in one sample from Neolithic Hungary, but still I think it can be associated more with ANE than U5a.

I wouldn't be suprised if U8(inclu. K), U7, U3, U1, U2, U6, etc. in the Middle east and south Asia are connected to their WHG and ANE-like ancestry. ~38,000 year old Russian K-14, belonged to U2-his own basal clade, and was mostly from an ancestral clade of ANE and WHG. mtDNA U might be the ANE-WHG lineage.

How did U5a get into Europe's first farmers? I thought these first farmers were of Near Eastern origin. Why did they have mesolithic mtDNA?

Hando
01-12-2015, 04:23 PM
The Linatzeta results do not have contradicting calls. Now one thing to remember is that the mt-DNA haplogroups in Northern Europe in the post-Ice Age period would be but a subset of those in Southern Europe. I'm certain that the Linatzeta results are 100% real, in fact the C/C in the LP-13910 is in line with other WHGs such as Loschbour and La Braņa.

WHG such as La Brana and Loschbour were lactose persistent? I thought that came much later with dairy farmers?

Krefter
01-12-2015, 09:26 PM
Hando, there isn't any confirmed non-U lineage to have existed in pre-Neolithic Europeans except K01's(WHG from Hungary) R3. So, T1a, T2a1b, J1b1a1, and J2b in Bronze age east Europe all originally came from the near east. Everyone from Pakistan-Ireland today has mostly near eastern mtDNA, but there's still variation within that near eastern mtDNA which is sometimes hard to track.

There's 8,000 year old U5a from Siberia, along with mostly east Asian mtDNA. ANE and East Asians had mixed in Siberia as far back as 20,000 years ago, that's how native Americans were created. WHG with U5 eventually got in the mix to, and It's very possible that east Asians admixed with WHG-ANE in Europe. Today Siberians have significant WHG ancestry but very very little near eastern ancestry, meaning they didn't get their WHG from modern Europeans.

Early Neolithic farmers from Germany and Hungary were not 100% Near eastern, they had significant WHG. People in the middle east today are more near eastern than they were. Close to 50% of Y DNA from central Europe's first farmers is of WHG origin.

Krefter
01-12-2015, 09:30 PM
Either maps are not working for some reason or I did something wrong. Great work, anyway!

Maybe you don't have Google maps. Besides that I can't think of anything.

dp
01-12-2015, 09:51 PM
I wonder why the science paper didnt give a value of Y instead of CT.
dp

Hando
01-13-2015, 11:34 AM
There's 8,000 year old U5a from Siberia, along with mostly east Asian mtDNA. ANE and East Asians had mixed in Siberia as far back as 20,000 years ago, that's how native Americans were created. WHG with U5 eventually got in the mix to, and It's very possible that east Asians admixed with WHG-ANE in Europe. Today Siberians have significant WHG ancestry but very very little near eastern ancestry, meaning they didn't get their WHG from modern Europeans.

So where do you think WHG with U5 mixed in? And with whom? In Siberia with ANE and East Asians?
East Asians migrated to Europe to mix with WHG and ANE? When do you this may have happened and who is showing modern East Asian autosomal in Europe?

Jean M
01-14-2015, 12:03 PM
I have been very frustrated with how academics and amateurs online view ancient mtDNA. To most what really matter is the frequency of large and old haplogroups, such as H and U, compared to modern people which is plain ridiculous. This has caused many to make wrong conclusions about ancient people based on their mtDNA. For example many believe Bell beaker from Germany was mostly Iberian-like because of its high frequency of mtDNA H, but if you look more deeply into it's mtDNA you'll see it's very similar to German Corded ware, Unetice, Bronze age Pontic Steppe, and Bronze age central Asia.

I agree entirely.



All we have to learn about ancient mtDNA is "Ancestral Journeys (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml)", which only gives the haplogroup label of samples, year, era, and cultural affinity. We don't know what extra mutations each sample had ..

In fact I have always given the mutations where these appear in the source. Possibly your browser is cutting off the right side of my tables. These are the standard headings in my tables of Y-DNA and mtDNA:

Culture
Country
Site and/or Individual
Sex
Date
Y-DNA - subheadings: Haplogroup; Additional information
mtDNA- subheadings: Haplogroup; Additional information . The mutations are listed under the heading 'Additional information'
Source


Ancestral Journeys is wrong on some of its haplogroup labels.

I imagine so. Here is what I say in the introduction: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnaintro.shtml


Nomenclature of haplogroups is being constantly revised, as new SNPs are discovered. Therefore the haplogroups assigned by the authors of even recent studies may need revision by the time of publication. Some attempt has been made in my tables to update nomenclature, but it would be as well to consult the latest tree.


I simply do not have the time to keep updating haplogroup names in my tables, but if someone emails me with the details of a particularly confusing change of name and exactly where it is in the tables, then it gets fixed. My tables were essentially made for my own use, but were made available online in the absence of an official database maintained by an institution (which is what we really need). The day may come when people feel that they are more irritating than useful, at which time they can easily be taken down.

In the meantime, you have done a lot of work and I congratulate you. Your spreadsheet format is likely to prove popular, since it can be downloaded and adapted off-line. In fact I had a request from one person to convert my html to spreadsheet. I think myself that the data really needs to be transferred to a searchable database format.

Krefter
01-14-2015, 09:43 PM
Jean M, I agree I wish academics would do this instead, and not hold anything back.

I think over the next few years amateurs and maybe academics will create much better databases for ancient and modern mtDNA and Y DNA online. Most people don't have enough time to get anything useful out of studies online and FTDNA.

J Man
01-14-2015, 11:50 PM
Great work Kreft! I am very interested in new ancient mtDNA studies that will be coming out of Iberia at some point. I still wonder if there is going to be any non-U mtDNA present in pre-Neolithic (Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic) Iberians?

Krefter
01-15-2015, 12:06 AM
J Man, KO1 who was as far as we know 100% WHG, had mtDNA R3, not U. According to Wikpedia R3 is found in Armenia. R3's probably an unsuccessful sister of U, R0, and R2'JT, which has grown up with them in west Eurasia for over 30,000 years.

J Man
01-15-2015, 01:29 AM
J Man, KO1 who was as far as we know 100% WHG, had mtDNA R3, not U. According to Wikpedia R3 is found in Armenia. R3's probably an unsuccessful sister of U, R0, and R2'JT, which has grown up with them in west Eurasia for over 30,000 years.

I would not be surprised if KO1 actually had some Neolithic farmer ancestry even if it was a small amount. There is a chance that he could score some Near_Eastern on the Eurogenes K8 test. Then again David has tested the mtDNA T2b Ire genome from the PWC in Gotland and that sample showed zero Near_Eastern.

Krefter
01-15-2015, 01:49 AM
K01 scored 100% WHG in ANE K8. Did Davidski test Ire8? He won't show near eastern in ANE K7, because Balts don't. We don't know enough about R3's presence in the world today to assume it could not have existed in WHG.

J Man
01-15-2015, 02:21 AM
K01 scored 100% WHG in ANE K8. Did Davidski test Ire8? He won't show near eastern in ANE K7, because Balts don't. We don't know enough about R3's presence in the world today to assume it could not have existed in WHG.

Well that settles that then lol. He told me he did but they have fewer markers to test compared to other ancient samples.

parasar
01-15-2015, 03:02 AM
Hando, there isn't any confirmed non-U lineage to have existed in pre-Neolithic Europeans except K01's(WHG from Hungary) R3. So, T1a, T2a1b, J1b1a1, and J2b in Bronze age east Europe all originally came from the near east. Everyone from Pakistan-Ireland today has mostly near eastern mtDNA, but there's still variation within that near eastern mtDNA which is sometimes hard to track.

There's 8,000 year old U5a from Siberia, along with mostly east Asian mtDNA. ANE and East Asians had mixed in Siberia as far back as 20,000 years ago, that's how native Americans were created. WHG with U5 eventually got in the mix to, and It's very possible that east Asians admixed with WHG-ANE in Europe. Today Siberians have significant WHG ancestry but very very little near eastern ancestry, meaning they didn't get their WHG from modern Europeans.

Early Neolithic farmers from Germany and Hungary were not 100% Near eastern, they had significant WHG. People in the middle east today are more near eastern than they were. Close to 50% of Y DNA from central Europe's first farmers is of WHG origin.
Is that your opinion or do you have any evidence of that?
While I will not disagree that modern Pakistan, Afghanistan and India have near-eastern influence, the component South Asians share with the Near East is one the youngest. Far younger than the two other major components in South Asia - one essentially South Indian and the other Gedrosia-Caucasus. The haplotypic diversity of both these components is far greater than that the one shared between South Asia and the Near East.

Generalissimo
01-15-2015, 03:26 AM
The haplotypic diversity of both these components is far greater than that the one shared between South Asia and the Near East.

This means nothing. All South Asian-specific clusters have high haplotypic diversity because they're more complex mixtures than those elsewhere.

There's one main Near Eastern component and it dates back to the Neolithic dispersals, which affected both Europe and South Asia. This is the source of the vast majority of Near Eastern mtDNA in Europe and South Asia.

parasar
01-15-2015, 04:23 AM
This means nothing. All South Asian-specific clusters have high haplotypic diversity because they're more complex mixtures than those elsewhere.

There's one main Near Eastern component and it dates back to the Neolithic dispersals, which affected both Europe and South Asia. This is the source of the vast majority of Near Eastern mtDNA in Europe and South Asia.

So then remove all the alleles that are shared and compare the haplotypic diversities.

Generalissimo
01-15-2015, 04:31 AM
So then remove all the alleles that are shared and compare the haplotypic diversities.

If I removed all the shared alleles from these so called ancestral clusters like Gedrosia-Caucasus, then I'd end up with clusters like Near Eastern and ANE.

parasar
01-15-2015, 04:45 AM
If I removed all the shared alleles from these so called ancestral clusters like Gedrosia-Caucasus, then I'd end up with clusters like Near Eastern and ANE.

Have you tried it with the populations such as the Mala, Madiga, Yadava, or Irula?
For Gedrosia-Caucasus I'm not surprised as a big chunk of it is indeed ANE.

J Man
01-16-2015, 07:17 PM
It seems quite likely now that mtDNA haplogroups H1 and H3 most likely came to Europe with Neolithic farmers who originated in the Near East. We need more ancient mtDNA from Southern Europe to know for sure or not though.

GailT
01-19-2015, 07:18 AM
So where do you think WHG with U5 mixed in? And with whom? In Siberia with ANE and East Asians?
East Asians migrated to Europe to mix with WHG and ANE? When do you this may have happened and who is showing modern East Asian autosomal in Europe?


I'd like to hear from someone with expertise in the anthropological evidence, but from the mtDNA, I'd guess that east-west migrations occurred during the Mesolithic from western Europe to Russia, Siberia and Ukraine, with U5a and U5b migrating eastward and U4 and U2e migrating westward, so perhaps some mixing of WHG and ANE during the Mesolithic, and then ANE also mixing with Middle Eastern farmers in the Steppe region and then also migrating to western Europe with Indo-Europeans.

dp
01-19-2015, 08:22 AM
Dear Gailt,
Speaking of mtDNA, U4, a distant cousin found out she was in U4a1d. When I sent her the global distribution map with east of Black Sea so high she was surprised.
Later,
dp :-)

parasar
01-19-2015, 06:12 PM
I'd like to hear from someone with expertise in the anthropological evidence, but from the mtDNA, I'd guess that east-west migrations occurred during the Mesolithic from western Europe to Russia, Siberia and Ukraine, with U5a and U5b migrating eastward and U4 and U2e migrating westward, so perhaps some mixing of WHG and ANE during the Mesolithic, and then ANE also mixing with Middle Eastern farmers in the Steppe region and then also migrating to western Europe with Indo-Europeans.

We have to also take into account ANE and U2e (two) presence in the Mesolithic Motala samples and U2e in one Blatterhohle sample. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2013/10/09/science.1245049.DC1/Bollongino.SM.pdf

parasar
01-20-2015, 02:40 AM
BTW, here's a life-like reconstruction of Mesolithic Europeans; Loschbour; who had mtDNA pre-U5b1a and Y DNA pre-I2a1b. We know what hair-eye-skin color he had, so this is probably very realistic.

http://blobsvc.wort.lu/picture/bbea9ba55a019d57bf5c0fec43eaf82a/519/291/wortv3/2334d8c5a0f081505ce8892d640c37f1965fa43c
...

Reminded me a little bit of this:
http://www.dineshmaneer.com/fae-to-facehakki-pikki-family-in-gokarna/
http://www.dineshmaneer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/blog_hakki_pikki--600x400.jpg

I wonder how the rs1129038A and rs12913832G Karitiana look like.
http://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/mvograph.asp?siteuid=SI663422X
http://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/mvograph.asp?siteuid=SI018623U
http://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/mvograph.asp?siteuid=SI007119S

Krefter
01-20-2015, 03:08 AM
Thanks for that info parasar. I did not know some native Americans had a two-SNP haplotype associated with blue eyes. The only other people who have it are west Eurasians, South Asians, and Africans and Siberians with known west Eurasian ancestry. This supports the idea that west Eurasian blue eyes originated in the WHG-ANE branch.

Hando
01-20-2015, 11:52 AM
Thanks for that info parasar. I did not know some native Americans had a two-SNP haplotype associated with blue eyes. The only other people who have it are west Eurasians, South Asians, and Africans and Siberians with known west Eurasian ancestry. This supports the idea that west Eurasian blue eyes originated in the WHG-ANE branch.
Are you suggesting that ANE-WHG were one source at one point and gave birth to the West Eurasian blue eyes? Or are you suggesting the blue eyes originated as a result of the mix between WHG and ANE? IF the former, then when do you think this WHG-ANE branch lived and where?

ADW_1981
01-20-2015, 04:05 PM
BTW, here's a life-like reconstruction of Mesolithic Europeans; Loschbour; who had mtDNA pre-U5b1a and Y DNA pre-I2a1b. We know what hair-eye-skin color he had, so this is probably very realistic.


All but 3 samples from European hunter gatherers belonged to mtDNA U, and two are probably from east Asian admixture.

If I had to guess on what mtDNA clades are of ANE origin, I would say U4 and U2e(and various U2 clades in south and west Asia). The U5a in Mesolithic east Europe and the Baltic is probably of WHG origin, because most U5 from central Europe's first farmers was U5a, and they lacked ANE ancestry. U4 was also found in one sample from Neolithic Hungary, but still I think it can be associated more with ANE than U5a.

I wouldn't be suprised if U8(inclu. K), U7, U3, U1, U2, U6, etc. in the Middle east and south Asia are connected to their WHG and ANE-like ancestry. ~38,000 year old Russian K-14, belonged to U2-his own basal clade, and was mostly from an ancestral clade of ANE and WHG. mtDNA U might be the ANE-WHG lineage.

Definitely looks more like modern east European or FAR north European with very defined, high cheekbones. (on average!)
People from western Europe are far more long headed today with a tendency with oval, less definition in their face. (doughy is perhaps a bad word but strikes a grain of truth) Men also have a tendency for a very high forehead in the west today.

I would not think this guy was part of my ethnic background if I saw him on the street.

Krefter
01-20-2015, 09:56 PM
Are you suggesting that ANE-WHG were one source at one point and gave birth to the West Eurasian blue eyes? Or are you suggesting the blue eyes originated as a result of the mix between WHG and ANE? IF the former, then when do you think this WHG-ANE branch lived and where?

ANE and WHG are closely related, they are probably somesort of brother clades. So, what I'm saying is that west Eurasian blue eyes may have originate in the ancestor of WHG-ANE. I think this is possible because west Asians, Europeans, north Africans, south Asians, Siberians, and native americans all have the same haplotype associated with blue eyes and all have significant WHG-ANE ancestry.

Hando
01-21-2015, 05:04 PM
ANE and WHG are closely related, they are probably somesort of brother clades. So, what I'm saying is that west Eurasian blue eyes may have originate in the ancestor of WHG-ANE. I think this is possible because west Asians, Europeans, north Africans, south Asians, Siberians, and native americans all have the same haplotype associated with blue eyes and all have significant WHG-ANE ancestry.
Thanks. When and where do you think this WHG-ANE branch lived?

vettor
01-21-2015, 05:16 PM
ANE and WHG are closely related, they are probably somesort of brother clades. So, what I'm saying is that west Eurasian blue eyes may have originate in the ancestor of WHG-ANE. I think this is possible because west Asians, Europeans, north Africans, south Asians, Siberians, and native americans all have the same haplotype associated with blue eyes and all have significant WHG-ANE ancestry.

I thought Maju said to get rid of the useless ANE and replaced it with Yamnya. making a WHG-EEF-Yamnya program
Due to the fact that the ANE markers represent MA-1 and another which has no bearings on european numbers

Krefter
01-21-2015, 10:06 PM
I thought Maju said to get rid of the useless ANE and replaced it with Yamnya. making a WHG-EEF-Yamnya program
Due to the fact that the ANE markers represent MA-1 and another which has no bearings on european numbers

You'd have to ask people who have worked with ancient genomes whether or not that's a good idea. Davidski, said it isn't, because Yamna is a mixture of WHG-BB-ANE(which he thinks are very real forms of ancestry). Yamna would work like components in an admixture like Eurogenes K15, because all those admixtures are a mixture of WHG-BB and maybe ANE, in someway. Yamna scores might not be totally accurate.

If anything EHG(Russian hunter gatherers) should take ANEs place for Europeans.

Generalissimo
01-21-2015, 11:26 PM
Using Yamnaya or EHG clusters instead of ANE to describe European genetic structure won't work, because not all of the ANE in Europe comes from Yamnaya and/or EHG.

Some of it comes from Scandinavian hunter-gatherers and post-Neolithic migrants from West Asia.

alan
01-21-2015, 11:55 PM
You'd have to ask people who have worked with ancient genomes whether or not that's a good idea. Davidski, said it isn't, because Yamna is a mixture of WHG-BB-ANE(which he thinks are very real forms of ancestry). Yamna would work like components in an admixture like Eurogenes K15, because all those admixtures are a mixture of WHG-BB and maybe ANE, in someway. Yamna scores might not be totally accurate.

If anything EHG(Russian hunter gatherers) should take ANEs place for Europeans.

Problem is that ANE may well be a relatively later arrival in even east and north-east European hunter-gatherers. I think the archaeological evidence best fits ANE arriving in eastern and north-east Europe from Siberia c. 9000-7000BC and before that being confined to Siberia for a very long time. I dont think eastern European hunters of the period 40000-9000BC had any ANE. I think in pre-9000BC terms ANE would probably best be called Siberian Paleolithic because it is clear that ANE came into being as a distinct entity somewhere in south-central Siberia in the millenia running up to Ma'ta. Mal'ta boy lived in a culture that emerged c. 30000BC in south-central Asia and is not known west of the 80th parallel.

Humanist
01-22-2015, 04:08 AM
Reminded me a little bit of this:
http://www.dineshmaneer.com/fae-to-facehakki-pikki-family-in-gokarna/
http://www.dineshmaneer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/blog_hakki_pikki--600x400.jpg

What, from that woman's face reminded you of the reconstruction?

I was getting more of an Andy Whitfield (RIP) vibe (although, of course, still very different from the reconstruction):

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/pc/Andy+Whitfield+Andy+Whitfield+Spanish+Kitchen+Wu7y oIw7N4_l.jpg

http://blobsvc.wort.lu/picture/bbea9ba55a019d57bf5c0fec43eaf82a/519/291/wortv3/2334d8c5a0f081505ce8892d640c37f1965fa43c

parasar
01-22-2015, 04:57 AM
What, from that woman's face reminded you of the reconstruction?
...

The combination of dark skin, dark hair, non brown eyes, brow ridge, and slight prognathism.
But the WHG does look more brachycephalic and has a clearly different forehead.

Sangarius
01-22-2015, 08:17 AM
The combination of dark skin, dark hair, non brown eyes, brow ridge, and slight prognathism.
But the WHG does look more brachycephalic and has a clearly different forehead.

Sorry, but I can't see any significant similarities between that woman and Loschbour. Very different bonestructures. The woman has no browridge, her forehead is actually very smooth. Her build is very gracile. She might be mesognathic not prognathic, but it's hard to tell without a profile picture.

Loschbour on the other hand has a very robust build with a heavy browridge. His nose is short, his jaw and chin are strong. His profile is orthognathic, his head is dolichocephalic like all people from that time period. Shorter heads are a modern phenomenon, afaik Ötzi is the earliest remain with a mesocephalic skull, but still closer to dolicocephly than brachycephaly.

http://blobsvc.wort.lu/picture/669df97ed00d98457db11dc05f9d92f3/519/291/wortv3/d676c960a6340a291eb05742f6dd2c1782fb53bc

J Man
02-01-2015, 05:07 PM
I can't find it right now but I did read before that there is a single mtDNA haplogroup J result from Mesolithic Karelia as well. I will continue to look for the source.

Angantyr
02-01-2015, 11:13 PM
Krefter, why have you split the PWC samples from Gotland between Hunter gatherers/Baltic Hunter gatherers (if they belong to mtDNA U) and Late Neolithic Central Europe/Funnel Beaker culture (if they belong to some other mtDNA haplogroup)? This is misleading, since all samples come from the same PWC contexts, and labelling some of them as TRB is certainly incorrect as TRB had disappeared from Gotland (if not entirely) when these PWC individuals were buried. If anything. the late PWC period on Gotland was influenced by Battle Axe/Corded Ware culture, to the extent that some Swedish archaeologists consider at least Ire a hybrid PWC/BAC site.

I'd put all of PWC under its own heading on the Middle/Late Neolithic tab, because even if they were primarily marine hunters, they were not the same as the Mesolithic hunter gatherers.

Krefter
02-01-2015, 11:17 PM
Krefter, why have you split the PWC samples from Gotland between Hunter gatherers/Baltic Hunter gatherers (if they belong to mtDNA U) and Late Neolithic Central Europe/Funnel Beaker culture (if they belong to some other mtDNA haplogroup)? This is misleading, since all samples come from the same PWC contexts, and labelling some of them as TRB is certainly incorrect as TRB had disappeared from Gotland (if not entirely) when these PWC individuals were buried. If anything. the late PWC period on Gotland was influenced by Battle Axe/Corded Ware culture, to the extent that some Swedish archaeologists consider at least Ire a hybrid PWC/BAC site.

I'd put all of PWC under its own heading on the Middle/Late Neolithic tab, because even if they were primarily marine hunters, they were not the same as the Mesolithic hunter gatherers.

Thanks for the correction. I'll move them out of Funnel Beaker later. They do have obvious non-hunter gatherer mtDNA though, so I won't put them in that section.

J Man
02-01-2015, 11:43 PM
Thanks for the correction. I'll move them out of Funnel Beaker later. They do have obvious non-hunter gatherer mtDNA though, so I won't put them in that section.

How would you classify mtDNA haplogroup H subclades H1 and H3 in Europe?

Krefter
02-01-2015, 11:58 PM
How would you classify mtDNA haplogroup H subclades H1 and H3 in Europe?

H1 and H3 are defined by CR-mutations, which almost all ancient samples were not tested for. There are H1 and H3 clades though defined by HV1 mutations, which almost all ancient samples were tested for. I don't know much about those lineages in Europe today.

J Man
02-02-2015, 12:30 AM
H1 and H3 are defined by CR-mutations, which almost all ancient samples were not tested for. There are H1 and H3 clades though defined by HV1 mutations, which almost all ancient samples were tested for. I don't know much about those lineages in Europe today.

They are probably Neolithic.

Krefter
02-02-2015, 01:13 AM
They are probably Neolithic.

I agree. I'm a bit tired of Maju's nonsense when it comes to H. He thinks a few iffy H samples from Mesolithic Europe, means a large fraction of H in all of Europe was there in the Mesolithic. I mean what are the chances Iberians in the Mesolithic had something like 80% H?

J Man
02-02-2015, 01:37 AM
I agree. I'm a bit tired of Maju's nonsense when it comes to H. He thinks a few iffy H samples from Mesolithic Europe, means a large fraction of H in all of Europe was there in the Mesolithic. I mean what are the chances Iberians in the Mesolithic had something like 80% H?

I became tired of Maju's idiocy a long time ago.