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GailT
10-06-2012, 09:39 AM
I've updated the summary of the haplogroup U5 project (link) (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U5b/default.aspx?section=results) . Any comments or corrections are much appreciated. As of October 5, 2012, including the U5a and U5b FGS projects and GenBank, we have 924 full mtDNA sequences for Haplogroup U5, with the following totals by subclade:

U5a1: 299

U5a2: 167

U5b1: 212

U5b2: 202

U5b3: 40

There are also two possible U5a* test results that need to be confirmed.

thanks,
Gail

J Man
10-06-2012, 03:36 PM
^Wow great update Gail! So it is really looking like U5b2c may have it's origins in the Iberian or Franco-Cantabrian refugium. This makes sense given the fact that the La-Brana Mesolithic remains turned out to be U5b2c1.

Jean M
10-06-2012, 11:34 PM
It's really good stuff Gail. You ask for ancient remains of U5a1a to determine its geographic origins. It has been found in the Dnieper-Donets culture of foragers who turned to cattle farming. The find-site was Nikolskoye, Ukraine 53584993 BC. These were some of the people who seem to have formed the origins of the Indo-Europeans.

Rathna
10-07-2012, 12:27 AM
U5a1 15218 16399
1. AY882398(Adygei) Achilli-Rengo U5a1 15-APR-2005 A73G T199C A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C A4769G G5585A G6023A T6674C C7028T A7569G G8251A A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C16192T C16256T C16270T T16311C A16399G
2. AY882399(Italy) Achilli-Rengo U5a1 15-APR-2005 A73G A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C A4769G C5339T C7028T A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C12801T T13617C G13889A C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G G15466A C16192T C16256T C16270T A16399G
3. EU140332 FTDNA U5a1 15-SEP-2007 A73G A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3027C T3197C A4769G C5263T C7028T A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C13002A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G A16051G C16192T C16256T C16270T A16316G A16399G T16519C
4. FJ348174 Irene U5a1 29-NOV-2008 A73G A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C C4111T A4769G C7028T A8860G T9088C G9438A G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A A12810G T13617C A14145G T14221C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C15790T C16192T T16249C C16256T C16270T A16399G T16519C
5. FJ348215 Irene U5a1 29-NOV-2008 A73G A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C C4111T A4769G C7028T A8860G T9088C G9438A G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A A12810G T13617C A14145G T14221C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C15790T C16192T T16249C C16256T C16270T A16399G T16519C
6. GU296570(Czech) Malyarchuk U5a1 04-MAY-2010 A73G A263G 309.1C 315.1C C522- A523- A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C A4769G C7028T A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C16192T C16256T C16270T A16399G
7. HQ384205(Spain36) Gomez-Carballa U5a1 05-JUL-2011 A73G A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C A4769G C4796T C7028T A8422G A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A C12103A A12308G G12372A T13617C C14003T C14766T A14793G A14893G T14971C A15218G A15326G C16192T C16256T C16270T A16399G
8. JN982470(England) FTDNA U5a1 12-NOV-2011 A73G A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C A3203G A4769G C5438T C7028T A8860G G9477A A9667G A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C16192T C16256T C16270T C16291T T16357C A16399G
16192!
9. GU296640(Slovakia) Malyarchuk U5a1 04-MAY-2010 A73G A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C A4769G C7028T C7747T C7792T A8860G G9477A A9604G A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C16256T C16270T A16399G T16519C
10. HM765468 Zaragoza U5a1 01-AUG-2010 A73G A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C A4769G C7028T C7792T A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G A15924G T16075C C16256T C16270T A16399G
11. JN412063(England) FTDNA U5a1 10-AUG-2011 A73G C150T A263G 315.1C T408A A750G A1438G G1709A A2706G T3197C A4769G C7028T C7792T A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A G11914A A12308G G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C16218T C16256T C16270T A16293G A16399G
U5a1a 1700
12. EF657259 mtDNA124(Eur.)Herrnstadt U5a1a 14-JUL-2007 A750G A1438G T1700C A2706G T3197C A4769G C4908T A5319G A6629G T6719C C7028T A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A C12064T A12308G C12346T G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G
13. GU296557(Buryat) Malyarchuk U5a1a 04-MAY-2010 A73G A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C 573.1C A750G A1438G T1700C A2706G T3197C A4769G A5319G A6629G T6719C C7028T A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G C12346T G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C16256T C16270T A16399G
14. GU296620(Russia) Malyarchuk U5a1a 04-MAY-2010 A73G A263G 315.1C 523.1C 523.2A A750G A1438G T1700C A2706G T3197C A4769G A5319G A6629G T6719C C7028T G8764A A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G C12346T G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C16256T A16399G
15. GU296623(Russia) Malyarchuk U5a1a 04-MAY-2010 A73G A263G 315.1C 573.1C A750G A1438G T1700C A2706G T3197C A4769G A5319G A6629G T6719C C7028T A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A C12237T A12308G C12346T G12372A A12699G T13617C C14766T A14793G G14905A A15218G A15326G C16256T A16399G

Gail, also from these data we can see that U5a1 is overwhelmingly Western European, and only from U5a1a we have a presence in eastern Europe and the Russian plane, what Malyarchuk and colleagues have demonstrated many times in their papers, i.e. that the migration was from West to East, and we haven’t in the Western Europe subclades of U5a1a, then there wasn’t a migration from East to West as Jean M pretends with her theory of the stelae people, what many people have demonstrated on other forums to be wrong.

GailT
10-07-2012, 03:52 AM
Thanks, Jean! I'll take a look at all of the ancient U5a1 and try to see if any of them have useful HVR results to predict a lower level subclade. You also have another test result on your page that also points to U5a1 in Russia very early:

Russia Lebyazhinka [IVa] M 8000-7000 BC U5a1 16192T, 16241C, 16256T, 16270T, 16399G; +12308 HinfI Bramanti 2009

And these that could be U5a1d2a:


Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk culture Mongolia Olon-Kurin-Gol Valley cemetery 400-200 BC U5a1 16086C, 16189C, 16192T, 16256T, 16270T, 16304C, 16399G, 00073G, +12308 HinfI. Pilipenko 2010
Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk culture Altai Republic Verkh-Kaldzhin II U5a1 16192T, 16256T, 16270T, 16304C Pilipenko 2010 from Molodin 200


which is found in a Tatar and in the NE Altai in the two available present day samples.

GailT
10-07-2012, 04:12 AM
Rathna - I have all of the Mayarchuck test results and also everything else from U5 in GenBank. U5a1a1 has a strong presence in eastern Europe and Russia and also some test results in Turkey, Iran, Armenia, India and Buryatia. My U5a1 Group I is in both northern Europe and south Asia. U5a1b is mostly found in northern Europe and Russia. U5a1c is mostly found in eastern Europe and Russia. U5a1d is in Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Russia, Belorus, a Buryat, a Tatar and a sample from northeastern Altai. U5a1e is in Germany, Poland and Russia. With the exception of U5a1h which is very young at the end of a long bottle neck, all of the U5a1 subclades have a strong presence in northern Europe, eastern Europe and Russia and points further east and south. It does seem to point to an origin of U5a1 in an ice refuge further east, perhaps the Ukraine. Given that we probably have an oversampling bias from western and northern Europe, this might also favour an eastern origin for U5a1. Another interesting question is why did U5a1a1 and U5a1b expand so much more rapidly than their sister clades?




Gail, also from these data we can see that U5a1 is overwhelmingly Western European, and only from U5a1a we have a presence in eastern Europe and the Russian plane, what Malyarchuk and colleagues have demonstrated many times in their papers, i.e. that the migration was from West to East, and we haven’t in the Western Europe subclades of U5a1a, then there wasn’t a migration from East to West as Jean M pretends with her theory of the stelae people, what many people have demonstrated on other forums to be wrong.

GailT
10-07-2012, 04:55 AM
^Wow great update Gail! So it is really looking like U5b2c may have it's origins in the Iberian or Franco-Cantabrian refugium. This makes sense given the fact that the La-Brana Mesolithic remains turned out to be U5b2c1.

Thanks J Man, and yes, based on both present distribution and ancient DNA, this seems likely. And it seems to indicate a connection between the NW coast of Spain and the British Isles, perhaps helping to confirm some oral traditions, although this connection could have been very ancient.

Rathna
10-07-2012, 06:54 AM
Rathna - I have all of the Mayarchuck test results and also everything else from U5 in GenBank. U5a1a1 has a strong presence in eastern Europe and Russia and also some test results in Turkey, Iran, Armenia, India and Buryatia. My U5a1 Group I is in both northern Europe and south Asia. U5a1b is mostly found in northern Europe and Russia. U5a1c is mostly found in eastern Europe and Russia. U5a1d is in Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Russia, Belorus, a Buryat, a Tatar and a sample from northeastern Altai. U5a1e is in Germany, Poland and Russia. With the exception of U5a1h which is very young at the end of a long bottle neck, all of the U5a1 subclades have a strong presence in northern Europe, eastern Europe and Russia and points further east and south. It does seem to point to an origin of U5a1 in an ice refuge further east, perhaps the Ukraine. Given that we probably have an oversampling bias from western and northern Europe, this might also favour an eastern origin for U5a1. Another interesting question is why did U5a1a1 and U5a1b expand so much more rapidly than their sister clades?

Hi Gail, I thank you very much for your response: you should be the most expert of this haplogroup. But my purpose wasn’t that to investigate about the origin of U5a and U5b (even though Behar2012b reports MC15021/DQ156212, Montiel-Sosa 2006 for U5a and MC598, MC18705/GQ129146 and MC21275/JQ074232 for U5b, which would seem indicate South-Western Europe), but to ascertain if it was reliable what Jean M affirmed: that by U5a1a in ancient mtDNA of the Russian plane we could have a witness of the origin of the Indo-Europeans and of the peopling of Western Europe by the stelae people.

The samples I posted above were taken by the Ian Logan spreadsheet, but you know that we have had now Phylotree 15, and the samples posted above like U5a1a 1700 are all U5a1a2a (2830.9 +/- 2533.1), then a late subclade (A5319G, A6629G, T6719C).

I’d be glad, before doing a deep exam of the situation, to know your thinking about this, i.e. if what Jean M affirmed is, by an exam of this haplogroup, reliable.

Jean M
10-07-2012, 11:19 AM
U5a1 15218 16399
Gail, also from these data we can see that U5a1 is overwhelmingly Western European, and only from U5a1a we have a presence in eastern Europe and the Russian plane, what Malyarchuk and colleagues have demonstrated many times in their papers, i.e. that the migration was from West to East, and we haven’t in the Western Europe subclades of U5a1a, then there wasn’t a migration from East to West as Jean M pretends with her theory of the stelae people

Deary me. :) Seems to be some confusion here. The Indo-Europeans spread in all directions from a homeland on the European steppe. The movement that I label the Stelae People is just one chapter in the lengthy saga of the spread of Indo-European languages. The Stelae People is the trail that led to Italy and Iberia. Other trails went east to the Asian steppe and from there to the Tarim Basin, Iran and India. Another trail (in fact several in succession) went into Anatolia, one of which ended up in Armenia. Other trails went north up the Danube, Dnieper and Dniester. It is a very long story and it involves more than one Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroup. Different haplogroups predominate in different parts of the Indo-European speaking world.

I say in my text (under Slavic genetic mix) "Since the distribution of U5a is weighted towards Eastern Europe, it may have evolved in an Ice Age refuge in south-eastern Europe."

Gail was asking about evidence for the origin of U5a1a, since she notes that it is now a common haplogroup within U5. She wondered if it had become involved in farming, since it had a burst of expansion at about that period. I was providing evidence which might explain its expansion.


what many people have demonstrated on other forums to be wrong.
No they haven't. (Sigh.) It is just that the trail I describe from the steppe to Italy and Iberia, so clearly marked in the archaeology, is particularly annoying to those who want to argue that the Proto-Indo-European homeland was in Anatolia, Armenia, Poland, Germany, Latvia, the Netherlands, the North Pole, India, the Moon or anywhere other than the European steppe, where the overwhelming majority of IE linguists place it. The archaeological evidence supporting that location was laid out by David Anthony in The Horse, The Wheel and Language (2007).

Rathna
10-07-2012, 12:12 PM
the North Pole


I am seeing that you read very carefully these other forums, where a friend of mine ( I am from India, but he comes from Southern Europe) who takes my same name, used for fun that place and you made him ban once more. Don’t you think that it would be better and more fascinating to use intelligence and arguments rather than banishments?
I am waiting for the response of Gail, i.e. a response made by Genetic arguments and not by chat.

Jean M
10-07-2012, 01:12 PM
@ Rathna

I doubt if I have read any of the forums you are thinking about. There are too many forums around for me to read regularly. I stick to those few that seem most informative. The North Pole is just one of the many places that someone at some time has suggested in print as the PIE homeland.

I haven't banned anyone from anywhere. That would be impossible, as I am not a moderator or administrator of any forum. Some people who get banned from a forum admit that they broke the rules. Others fix upon one person to blame. (Usually whoever they most dislike, or someone who has publicly pointed out their rule-breaking.) Others claim that there is a conspiracy to silence their point of view. I really can't say if the latter is ever true. What I can say is that I would not want to belong to a forum which banned people simply for unorthodox opinions.

I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I feel that forums which insist on their members following a particular school of thought are unlikely to be very successful. I feel that the most successful forums encourage free, but civil, discourse. Users need to be able to feel safe to voice their opinions without being subject to personal, racist, sexist, ethnic or nationalist abuse.

GailT
10-07-2012, 03:35 PM
Id be glad, before doing a deep exam of the situation, to know your thinking about this, i.e. if what Jean M affirmed is, by an exam of this haplogroup, reliable.

The short answer is yes, the results of the U5 project are consistent with Jean's description of U5a. The U5 project adds a larger number of samples (many of which are not in GenBank) and these tend to biased toward oversampling from northwestern Europe - we have many people from former English colonies testing who have ancestry from the UK, Ireland and Germany. I also have the impression that a large number of people from Scandinavia (especially Finland) are participating, although I don't know if that is over sampling or if it simply reflects high U5 percentages in that region. I can't quantify the regional sample bias from testing at FTDNA but I think that is an important topic to pursue.

Fortunately we have the studies by Malyarchuck et al. that are very important for providing more samples from eastern Europe and Russia. But I think we are still under sampled in southwest Asia and India, and we might also be under sampled from the Mediterranean region. So it is possible that we might get a different picture of current U5a and U5b distribution when we have more test results from those regions.

For the longer answer, we need to consider the wisdom of Barbujani (link) (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/06/wise-words-on-y-chromosome.html). Ultimately, I think we will need ancient mtDNA testing at the full genome level to be certain of ancient origins and migrations. U5a1 could have an origin in the Eurasian Steppe, and there does seem to be some ancient DNA evidence to support that theory. There could have been multiple migrations of U5a1 from the Steppe to western Europe at a very early date, and this could explain some of the very rare U5a1 lineages that we see in western Europe today. But I think the real challenge is to explain why a few subclades U5a1a1, U5a1b and U5a2a1 are so dominant today. It seems likely they were part of a Neolithic population expansion, either from farmers or herders, and that could also be consistent with Jean's theories. But in any case, I think in the next several years we will see full genome sequences of ancient remains that will resolve the uncertainty.

GailT
10-07-2012, 03:54 PM
I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I feel that forums which insist on their members following a particular school of thought are unlikely to be very successful. I feel that the most successful forums encourage free, but civil, discourse.
The challenge is that people can have legitimate disagreements on how to define civil or polite discourse. I stopped participating in GENEALOGY-DNA-L because the current moderator has banned people for pointing out factual errors by other posters. I think there is a distinction between being blunt or even being rude versus being abusive. We have a real problem when we ban people for not being sufficiently polite.

Jean M
10-07-2012, 05:20 PM
Yes it is very difficult to know where to draw the line. Being a moderator is an unenviable task. Disagreement and debate is healthy. But people can get deterred from participating in any forum if even one nasty bully is tolerated. I mean the kind of person who will smear someone's family, ethnicity, gender, sexual history, religion, education, intelligence or anything else they can think of if they don't like the facts or opinions offered. It adds up to libel. If it is tolerated, then the forum owners could be liable at law. So it is just not healthy for any forum to tolerate abuse.

GailT
10-21-2012, 08:38 PM
You ask for ancient remains of U5a1a to determine its geographic origins. It has been found in the Dnieper-Donets culture of foragers who turned to cattle farming. The find-site was Nikolskoye, Ukraine 53584993 BC. These were some of the people who seem to have formed the origins of the Indo-Europeans.

Jean - I'm taking a closer look at the ancient mtDNA. The U5a1a sample has a mutation at 16356 that is quite rare. We have one person in U5a1 with this mutation, but only tested to HVR1. It appears that the authors did not report the coding region results used to identify U5a1a. The results are in GeBank but it looks like only HVR1 results were submitted. I emailed the lead author and hope to get a reply.

They also found 3 samples of mtDNA C in this group which might suggest a complicated migration history.

thanks,
Gail

Jean M
10-22-2012, 12:38 AM
To me the mixture of mtDNA haplogroups in the Dnieper-Donets culture tallies with the archaeology. Dnieper-Donets period I people were foragers who made pottery of a type that originated in Lake Baikal, Siberia. In Dnieper-Donets period II these foragers adopted cattle-farming from their western neighbours.

The way I read the D-D II haplogroups, U5a1a represents local foragers, who mixed first with some foragers who wandered across the steppe from Lake Baikal as the climate improved. This mixing seems to have been happening on both sides of the Urals. A similarly mixed group was found at Sopka, Russia, on the Asian side, dating to 4000-3000 BC (see my table). Then as the Dnieper-Donets people turned to farming, they mixed with farming neighbours and acquired H and U3.

GailT
10-22-2012, 09:00 AM
Jean - have you seen this paper: Mitochondrial diversity patterns and the Magdalenian resettlement of Europe: new insights from the edge of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge (http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/jhg2012100a.html). I didn't see it in your library.

I emailed the authors to ask what coding region SNPs they tested for U5a1a.

thanks,
Gail

thanks,
Gail

Jean M
10-22-2012, 09:52 AM
I have seen the abstract. I only have institutional access to the full content of this journal up to 2006. I limit the number of papers I actually purchase mainly to ancient DNA.

newtoboard
11-29-2012, 12:09 PM
To me the mixture of mtDNA haplogroups in the Dnieper-Donets culture tallies with the archaeology. Dnieper-Donets period I people were foragers who made pottery of a type that originated in Lake Baikal, Siberia. In Dnieper-Donets period II these foragers adopted cattle-farming from their western neighbours.

The way I read the D-D II haplogroups, U5a1a represents local foragers, who mixed first with some foragers who wandered across the steppe from Lake Baikal as the climate improved. This mixing seems to have been happening on both sides of the Urals. A similarly mixed group was found at Sopka, Russia, on the Asian side, dating to 4000-3000 BC (see my table). Then as the Dnieper-Donets people turned to farming, they mixed with farming neighbours and acquired H and U3.

What ydnas would the Eurasian foragers and Dnieper-Donets people have exhibited? I am guessing R1a and N1c respectively.

harrowwoman
02-07-2017, 07:16 PM
According to my DNA results, I'm U5b2c - is this a fairly rare group or common? I'm still struggling with the matching on GEDMATCH, not knowing what I'm doing certainly gives quite a headache, but I persevere.

Saetro
02-08-2017, 11:53 PM
According to my DNA results, I'm U5b2c - is this a fairly rare group or common? I'm still struggling with the matching on GEDMATCH, not knowing what I'm doing certainly gives quite a headache, but I persevere.

General assistance on mtDNA haplogroups can be found through the ISOGG site http://isogg.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA_haplogroup
Specifically you might also like Rebekah Canada's encyclopedia.
This will get you straight to your haplogroup http://haplogroup.org/mtdna/rsrs/l123456/l23456/l2346/l346/l34/l3/n/r/u/u5/u5b/u5b2/u5b2c/
Try parent groups as well. Pare back the classification one character at a time to find the larger group - and the older history of your own subset within it.
I am usually a sucker for the maps at Eupedia, but here there is only one for U5 as a whole, but also some comments on your specific sub group.

If your test was with FTDNA, join the relevant mtDNA Haplogroup project. People there are generally very helpful.

Baltimore1937
02-09-2017, 12:09 AM
U5b2c is rather close to my U5b2b2. I notice quite a few U5b2c matches are via Ireland. One possibility is that they arrived there with the Norse/Norwegians.

GailT
02-09-2017, 04:06 AM
According to my DNA results, I'm U5b2c - is this a fairly rare group or common? I'm still struggling with the matching on GEDMATCH, not knowing what I'm doing certainly gives quite a headache, but I persevere.

It is not especially rare - we have 67 full sequence samples of U5b2c. If you test the full mtDNA sequence you can identify a more specific subclade of U5b2c.

castle3
03-11-2017, 07:40 AM
I have to say that I haven't delved very deeply into my mtDNA, but I'm U5b2b3. My closest matches are Scottish & Irish. Any ideas as to the age of this group, plus where it originated, prior to its arrival in Britain & Ireland?

GailT
03-14-2017, 02:41 AM
I have to say that I haven't delved very deeply into my mtDNA, but I'm U5b2b3. My closest matches are Scottish & Irish. Any ideas as to the age of this group, plus where it originated, prior to its arrival in Britain & Ireland?

U5b2b3 has an age estimate of about 9000 years and is mostly found in western Europe including Ireland, UK, France, Spain, Portugal. There are also few samples from Denmark, Germany and Scandinavia. If you tested the full sequence and join the U5 project, I might be able to place you in a sucbclade of U5b2b3.

castle3
03-24-2017, 06:01 AM
I have to say that I haven't delved very deeply into my mtDNA, but I'm U5b2b3. My closest matches are Scottish & Irish. Any ideas as to the age of this group, plus where it originated, prior to its arrival in Britain & Ireland?

UPDATE: I'm now classified as U5b2b3b