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Solothurn
01-24-2015, 03:07 AM
As more PF6658/Z193+ results are coming in, has anybody got any idea of the age of occurrence yet?

MitchellSince1893
01-24-2015, 03:39 AM
As it's at the same level below U152 as L2, I come up 4500 ybp +/- 750 years (3750 to 5250 ybp) using SNP count dating.

Solothurn
01-24-2015, 04:36 PM
Thanks, Probably L2's brother :)


As it's at the same level below U152 as L2 I come up 4500 ybp +/- 750 years (3750 to 5250 ybp) using SNP count dating.

MitchellSince1893
02-21-2015, 04:30 AM
FYI: Yfull now has PF6658 as formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4000 ybp http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF6658/

lgmayka
05-18-2015, 03:23 PM
Kit 148821 of Poland (probably from this village (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruda,_Ropczyce-S%C4%99dzisz%C3%B3w_County)) just received his Big Y results. He is
Z193+
PF6658+
PF6660-

Solothurn
05-18-2015, 06:38 PM
So is he a PF6658*?


Kit 148821 of Poland (probably from this village (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruda,_Ropczyce-S%C4%99dzisz%C3%B3w_County)) just received his Big Y results. He is
Z193+
PF6658+
PF6660-

R.Rocca
05-18-2015, 07:01 PM
Kit 148821 of Poland (probably from this village (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruda,_Ropczyce-S%C4%99dzisz%C3%B3w_County)) just received his Big Y results. He is
Z193+
PF6658+
PF6660-

Looks like he belongs to the CTS2617+CTS4562+ branch which had all 11 samples thus far from Italy (between FTDNA, 1KG and Francalacci data).

lgmayka
05-18-2015, 07:04 PM
So is he a PF6658*?
He tested negative at
PF6660 (Z192)
CTS7193

He shows no evidence of a positive result at
18051007 (S20550)
7717741 (BY146)
7009462 (FGC30121)

lgmayka
05-18-2015, 07:09 PM
Looks like he belongs to the CTS2617+CTS4562+ branch which had all 11 samples thus far from Italy (between FTDNA, 1KG and Francalacci data).
If CTS2617+ CTS4562+ was found among the 1000 Genomes samples, I am surprised it does not appear on YFull's haplotree (http://yfull.com/tree/R-PF6658/). Do you have the sample number(s)?

Or perhaps you mean the Tuscan samples, and YFull's tree is incorrect?

R.Rocca
05-18-2015, 07:27 PM
If CTS2617+ CTS4562+ was found among the 1000 Genomes samples, I am surprised it does not appear on YFull's haplotree (http://yfull.com/tree/R-PF6658/). Do you have the sample number(s)?

Or perhaps you mean the Tuscan samples, and YFull's tree is incorrect?

It was only one 1KG sample (NA20792), so it makes sense since they did not have anything else to match it to. The other 9 samples were from the Sardinian Francalacci et al dataset and the last one was FTDNA kit no. N42592 from Sicily.

lgmayka
05-18-2015, 07:30 PM
Looks like he belongs to the CTS2617+CTS4562+ branch which had all 11 samples thus far from Italy (between FTDNA, 1KG and Francalacci data).
I see now. I missed this subclade because its only member only appears in the R-U152 Project results when specifically logged in to a kit in that project. (The owner has marked his results to be Members Only.)

Yes, our Polish kit 148821 tested positive at
CTS2617
CTS4562
18414951
23580754

But here's the odd thing: That CTS2617+ already in the R-U152 Project, kit N42592 of Sicily, has a corresponding mtDNA kit, N39236, in the Polish Project! His matrilineal ancestor is from Poznań!

lgmayka
05-19-2015, 10:25 AM
It was only one 1KG sample (NA20792), so it makes sense since they did not have anything else to match it to. The other 9 samples were from the Sardinian Francalacci et al dataset and the last one was FTDNA kit no. N42592 from Sicily.
Vladimir Tagankin of YFull writes:
---
Z193 - It has a high degree of homology. When reading the short length it is 100% corresponds to a different portion of the Y chromosome.
...
This SNP is in a difficult region for aligned (224xxxxx). At least in the results of the NGS this SNP is not reliable.
This SNP is necessary to remove the tree.

Z193 (G->T) for NA20792 2T1G

PF6658. Here, almost all the same.
PF6658 (A->G) for NA20792 1A1T
Position 224xxxxx
---

Dropping Z193 and PF6658 from the haplotree would not seriously affect the new subclade we are discussing, since we have at least four other SNPs (CTS2617, CTS4562, 18414951, and 23580754) to define it. But it brings into question any relationship with the PF6660 subclade or the two singletons on the current tree (http://yfull.com/tree/R-PF6658/).

R.Rocca
05-19-2015, 01:23 PM
Vladimir Tagankin of YFull writes:
---
Z193 - It has a high degree of homology. When reading the short length it is 100% corresponds to a different portion of the Y chromosome.
...
This SNP is in a difficult region for aligned (224xxxxx). At least in the results of the NGS this SNP is not reliable.
This SNP is necessary to remove the tree.

Z193 (G->T) for NA20792 — 2T1G

PF6658. Here, almost all the same.
PF6658 (A->G) for NA20792 — 1A1T
Position 224xxxxx
---

Dropping Z193 and PF6658 from the haplotree would not seriously affect the new subclade we are discussing, since we have at least four other SNPs (CTS2617, CTS4562, 18414951, and 23580754) to define it. But it brings into question any relationship with the PF6660 subclade or the two singletons on the current tree (http://yfull.com/tree/R-PF6658/).

Z193 and PF6658 are impossible to test via Sanger sequencing, but make up a pretty substantial subclade directly below U152. The heterozygosity at these two positions are unique to U152 minus all other major subclades L2, Z36, etc. (...that I know of).

lgmayka
05-19-2015, 06:41 PM
Z193 and PF6658 are impossible to test via Sanger sequencing, but make up a pretty substantial subclade directly below U152.
But can they be reliably detected via microarray? ISOGG's rules (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_SNP_Requirements.html) appear to say that for full (non-italicized) status, a SNP must be reliably detectable via either
- Sanger sequencing, or
- Both next-generation sequencing and microarrays.

Slightly off-topic: Has FTDNA officially announced the technology used in its SNP panels? At one time, Janine Cloud of FTDNA wrote:
---
They won't be using Sanger sequencing, but it won't be a Big Y-type sequencing either. I don't have clearance to discuss the specifics of the technology involved, but I can tell you it's not either of those.
---

Is everyone just assuming that the SNP panels must be using microarrays?

R.Rocca
05-19-2015, 06:55 PM
But can they be reliably detected via microarray? ISOGG's rules (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_SNP_Requirements.html) appear to say that for full (non-italicized) status, a SNP must be reliably detectable via either
- Sanger sequencing, or
- Both next-generation sequencing and microarrays.

Slightly off-topic: Has FTDNA officially announced the technology used in its SNP panels? At one time, Janine Cloud of FTDNA wrote:
---
They won't be using Sanger sequencing, but it won't be a Big Y-type sequencing either. I don't have clearance to discuss the specifics of the technology involved, but I can tell you it's not either of those.
---

Is everyone just assuming that the SNP panels must be using microarrays?

I'm not sure if they can be detected via microarrays, but certainly via NGS. Derived samples meet the reporting threshold of both Big-Y and Full Genomes.

lgmayka
06-06-2015, 10:23 PM
YFull's latest (3.11) haplotree (http://yfull.com/tree/R-U152/) has dropped Z193 and PF6658. In its stead are two subclades directly under U152:

- CTS2617, CTS4562 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-CTS2617/). Right now, this includes only the Polish YF03574 and the Tuscan NA20792. YFull loosely estimates a TMRCA of 3200 ybp between the two. I am trying to persuade the FTDNA customer of Sicilian patrilineage to submit his BAM file to YFull. His example would refine the TMRCA.

- Z192/PF6660 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-Z192/). This has 4 Tuscan and Mexican research samples.

PF6658 is found in multiple places in haplogroup J as well, so its prospects for inclusion in the tree are pretty low. Z193 is not found anywhere else in the haplotree, so perhaps additional examples might convince YFull of its phylogenetic reliability in uniting R-CTS2617 and R-Z192.

lgmayka
06-21-2015, 11:26 PM
Yes, our Polish kit 148821 tested positive at
CTS2617
CTS4562
18414951
23580754

But here's the odd thing: That CTS2617+ already in the R-U152 Project, kit N42592 of Sicily, has a corresponding mtDNA kit, N39236, in the Polish Project! His matrilineal ancestor is from Poznań!
The Shared Novel Variants feature of FTDNA's Big Y Matches page is finally working again, so I can now easily see that kits 148821 and N42592 share the following additional reliable SNPs (besides those listed above). Classification (best vs. acceptable) is by YFull.

Best quality
8681571
14928150
17579504
18984799

Acceptable quality
15207741

Thus, this relationship is quite significant, though still ancient.

Solothurn
11-05-2015, 09:45 AM
On the U152 project it is suggested some test for PF6658. Wasn't this unreliable as can come in positive or negative due to heterozygous properties. Or was this Z193?

I digress, but I am restricted to my tablet at present as sitting at my PC is uncomfortable, I am recovering from a radical prostatectomy (cancer).

On the mend though as you probably know we U152s don't give in easily :)


S.

mafe
11-05-2015, 01:58 PM
On the U152 project it is suggested some test for PF6658. Wasn't this unreliable as can come in positive or negative due to heterozygous properties. Or was this Z193?

I digress, but I am restricted to my tablet at present as sitting at my PC is uncomfortable, I am recovering from a radical prostatectomy (cancer).

On the mend though as you probably know we U152s don't give in easily :)


S.

I agree, at the moment it is a bit confusing, now it reads; "Please order PF6658", it would be better if it reads; "Please test PF6658 (by ordering Big-Y)".

I wish you a speedy recovery!

Solothurn
01-31-2016, 12:02 PM
On YFull's branch of PF6658 I do not recognize any SNPs that my group has? Will they have another name or is it that nobody submitted with our SNPs yet?

http://www.yfull.com/arch-3.8/tree/R-PF6658/

lgmayka
01-31-2016, 12:59 PM
On YFull's branch of PF6658 I do not recognize any SNPs that my group has?
Here is the official YFull haplotree for R-U152 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-U152/). It does not have PF6658 at all, apparently because that SNP occurs too often in the tree. Go to this SNP search page (http://www.yfull.com/search-snp-in-tree/) and enter PF6658. You get the following results:
− PF6658 R-CTS2617
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6658 J-Y11782*
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6658 R-Z192
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6658 R-U152*
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6658 J-L1064
This position for SNP is not in the YTree

Similarly, YFull declines to place Z193:
− Z193 R-CTS2617
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− Z193 R-Z192
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− Z193 R-U152*
This position for SNP is not in the YTree

YFull Groups shows that entry YF03574 in clade R-Y16248 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-Y16248/) tested
CTS2617+ CTS4562+ Z193+ PF6658+

EDIT: I found an email from Vladimir Tagankin of YFull, in which he explains why they decided to remove Z193 and PF6658 from their haplotree. He says that those locations (22439864 and 22440651 respectively) have too much homology for reliable interpretation in Big Y results.

R.Rocca
01-31-2016, 04:26 PM
On YFull's branch of PF6658 I do not recognize any SNPs that my group has? Will they have another name or is it that nobody submitted with our SNPs yet?

http://www.yfull.com/arch-3.8/tree/R-PF6658/

They are messy to interpret for a program, so I don't know that they will ever be included in YFull's tree. However, the combination of these two SNPs together has been confirmed with robust branching below it in over a hundred U152* samples (including raw data from Francalacci's Sardinians). So, we know that they represent a real genetic branch.

Kelso
01-31-2016, 05:04 PM
They are messy to interpret for a program, so I don't know that they will ever be included in YFull's tree. However, the combination of these two SNPs together has been confirmed with robust branching below it in over a hundred U152* samples (including raw data from Francalacci's Sardinians). So, we know that they represent a real genetic branch.


Thanks Rick,

This is Tim Duncan (FGC-1062AA/ZG69A, FTDNA-11804 (Duncan cluster)) from the Duncan cluster of U152+, PF6658+, Z193+ etc.

Thanks for giving more background on the volume of tests and analysis for these variants. I was wandering if they were going to hold up as viable SNPs.

It would be great if these positions can eventually be placed on the ISOGG and YFull trees etc., so others can see and use them. Of course you are maintaining the main U152 tree.

FYI I have a second Y-Elite test ordered for another of our Duncans in this larger group and I am still working to get the BAM file for the other one.

fetterley
12-03-2017, 10:03 PM
New member. My big Y results show R-PF6658. Can you offer any advice on how to proceed, My goal is to find heritage information on my fifth great-grandfather father Philip Fetterly 1725-1803

geiserich
12-04-2017, 03:41 PM
Hello Fetterly,

Welcome in this forum.
Do you have SNP`s below R-PF6658, for example Z192 or PF6652.
You can join the FTDNA R1b-U152 project.

fetterley
01-07-2018, 09:40 PM
How do I check for a SNP below R-PF6658? I have joined FTDNA R1b-U152 project. My kit # is 345651.Thank you.

Kelso
01-08-2018, 12:45 AM
How do I check for a SNP below R-PF6658? I have joined FTDNA R1b-U152 project. My kit # is 345651.Thank you.

Fetterley is your BigY data placed on The Big Tree? Alex will compare you to all of us and place you according to who you match. I am also PF6658+ and not below Z192- but BY3642+. I am in the Duncan cluster below the group FGC5033.

This is a smaller area below U152. My ancestry is British Isles most likely Scotland. Tim

fetterley
01-08-2018, 09:27 PM
Tim, yes I am on the big tree and I am listed with Bonham #92311. How do I determine more detail like above or below FGC5033 ? I believe my fifth great grandfather, Philip Fetterly 1725-1803, was a German immigrant.

Texas Republic Ware
06-10-2018, 02:30 PM
#343221
Should someone in our group order the YFull, so our placement into the YTree is confirmed ?

kendon
08-11-2018, 01:50 PM
Hello,
I am administrator for my cousin's BigY-500 DNA test. We have been trying to establish a Haplogroup and possible ethnicity for my Mother's Paternal line. I already have 6 Generations in Devon, England in my Family Tree through thorough research. But nothing at all before about 1700. The name was Bohun originally, then anglicised to Boone hereafter down to my Grandfather (mother's father) My cousins haplogroup through FTDNA is FGC5033 I have put it into the BIG Y TREE and it is still under analysis at present. My cousin has 3 -12 marker matches all with English and German descent through his Y111 test. He has NO matches via Big Y-500 test and 1 exact match (Belgian) through his incomplete BIG Y Tree analysis. Any comments or answers appreciated on this especially in regards to ethnicity - Kit no 770775. Thanks.

kendon
08-30-2018, 02:25 PM
Hi Fetterley, my cousin's haplogroup FGC5033 is near to yours on the Alex Williamson - Big Y Tree. It is listed under the name 'Bohun'. It has just been confirmed as finished, but still has a small side bar in pink indicating that there is something unfinished? I can't get more info on FGC5033 at all - I am interested in origins. I wonder if I should get SNP's tested but everything I read about Z193 and PF6658 and downstream seems to say that they are difficult to test. I don't know why. If you have any info regarding this please let me know - this is my mothers fathers line and I have it documented back to 1700 in Devon England and nothing before that - hence the search. Cheers, Kerry

Solothurn
08-30-2018, 02:49 PM
Hi

This is what I heard:

Unreliable as can come in positive or negative due to heterozygous properties :(


I wonder if I should get SNP's tested but everything I read about Z193 and PF6658 and downstream seems to say that they are difficult to test. I don't know why.

Solothurn
09-15-2018, 10:45 AM
For SNP CTS2617 in STRs for DYS511 it gives 9 for ancestral and 10 derived in the listing. So is CTS2617 9 or 10 or either?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-U152/

Edit: I found it: 10 :)

kendon
09-30-2018, 08:55 AM
Is there any news about Z193/PF6658/FGC5033.Whyis this haplogrouping so seemingly obscure?

Solothurn
09-30-2018, 12:51 PM
Hi

Steve Wear already did this, but more BigY results can bring in more recent SNPs :)

Edit: sorry still half asleep, yfull not BigY :(


#343221
Should someone in our group order the YFull, so our placement into the YTree is confirmed ?

steinmauer
11-30-2018, 09:44 AM
For the first time we have someone from PF6658/Z193 who is PF6653+ but not DYS590=6. He is also BY6684. I submitted a request to FTDNA to move the rest of the SNPs previously on this level to a new subclade under PF6653/BY6684. The new tester is from Algeria and the family lore is that his ancestors arrived there by boat at some point in the past, but he does not know when. The question is, did they come directly from Sardinia or from continental Europe? His closest matches on the Big Y are the DYS590=6 group from Great Britain/North America and a large number of participants in the Sardinia Project. Unfortunately, the Sardinia project did not include STR testing so we cannot compare that.

Michael Talley

Ahmed
05-27-2019, 01:16 AM
Hi everyone. I have made the Big Y test and the results came back few days ago that my confirmed haplogroup is R-Z193/PF6658. I am from Egypt so i am trying to discover the history of my family back to Europe which is a very big challenge. I have reached some information like Z193 is very rare in Europe, i have only one guy in the same branch in FTDNA tree but he is from England, the highest Z192 concentration in Italy is in Sardinia which might be the origin of my family and our bloodline may be crossed the sea from Italy to Egypt during the Roman invasion 2000 years ago. I still have no big y matches but i would like you if you have information that could be helpful in my search. Thanks

R.Rocca
05-27-2019, 02:17 AM
Hi everyone. I have made the Big Y test and the results came back few days ago that my confirmed haplogroup is R-Z193/PF6658. I am from Egypt so i am trying to discover the history of my family back to Europe which is a very big challenge. I have reached some information like Z193 is very rare in Europe, i have only one guy in the same branch in FTDNA tree but he is from England, the highest Z192 concentration in Italy is in Sardinia which might be the origin of my family and our bloodline may be crossed the sea from Italy to Egypt during the Roman invasion 2000 years ago. I still have no big y matches but i would like you if you have information that could be helpful in my search. Thanks

Ahmed, Z193 is also quite common in places like Tuscany. Your suspicion of a Roman origin is very likely IMO but is hard to prove with the limited amount of data we have.

Ahmed
05-27-2019, 02:47 AM
Thank you. Yes it is still guesses and i am trying to find the first clue but may be not a lot of people have done the big y test of my matches so this makes it harder . I did the big y test , family finder and 23 and me as well so i have some good genetic information so what do you think the best thing to start with?

Titane
10-30-2019, 08:26 PM
And now France! A cousin of mine took the BigY-700 test and is reported to be R-Z193. When I put this in SNPTracker, it shows RPF6658 with Switzerland as main spot. He is on the FT-DNA French Heritage site, kit 343623. Our paper trail goes back to late 1600s, France, no specific location, although the name is common in the North and in Belgium.
He has no matches...