PDA

View Full Version : Those of European descent, lets see if we can figure out this South Asian thing...



SwampThing27
01-25-2015, 08:23 PM
I really would like to pin down the South Asian (Indian) component in those of us from British descent. As many have noticed, Northwest Europeans tend to have more of this component than other Europeans and it is something that has interested me since the first time I uploaded my data to Gedmatch. Note that I show ZERO South Asian on 23andme's ancestry composition and also only show European on FTDNA's MyOrigins, but I will start by posting my South Asian scores for various Gedmatch calculators as well as my result from DNAtribes. All of these numbers are higher than the averages for my respective ancestral populations. (British, French, German, Dutch)

Harapaworld: 1.27%
Eurogenes K13: 3.25%
Dodecad V3: 2.45%
MDLPK 23b: 1.67%
DNA Tribes: Gangetic North-Central India 6.4% and Brahmin Andhra Pradesh India: 1.7%
23andme: 0%
FTDNA: 0%

Would anyone else be interested in putting forth theories as to why some of us have these higher numbers, and also why they don't show on 23andme? I originally suspected that it was simply an ancient remnant found in Northwest Europeans, kind of like a sticky spot that has just continued to mix over and over in that population and if anyone else feels the same than lets discuss that. Any input at all is appreciated.

PS: Contrary to the title, all others are welcome to as well :)

randwulf
01-25-2015, 09:16 PM
I am maybe 15%-20% English/Irish/Scottish and pretty low on the South Asian. The rest is Continental West Europe or unknown. I am excluding Southeast Asia and Southwest Asia as different and using South Indian as the number where the calculator calls it that:

Geno 2.0 - 0%
FTDNA Origins - 0%
MDLP K23b - 0%
Eurogenes K13 - 0.64%
Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 - 0.24%
Dodecad K12b - 0.45%
Dodecad World9 - 0.67%
Dodecad Globe13 - 0.76%
HarappaWorld - 0.22%

Dr_McNinja
01-25-2015, 09:26 PM
I think Gedrosian is the real connection. The South Asian components are usually a mix of ANE, ENF, ASI, and Oceanian. Since Archaic admixture can show up as ASI or Oceanian (especially Denisovan and Oceanian), it could be that which is gravitating towards South Asian in non-South Asians. Europeans already have ANE/ENF. There might be a connection between primitive WHG/ANE and Oceanian or even ASI.

randwulf
01-25-2015, 09:42 PM
I think Gedrosian is the real connection. The South Asian components are usually a mix of ANE, ENF, ASI, and Oceanian. Since Archaic admixture can show up as ASI or Oceanian (especially Denisovan and Oceanian), it could be that which is gravitating towards South Asian in non-South Asians. Europeans already have ANE/ENF. There might be a connection between primitive WHG/ANE and Oceanian or even ASI.

My Gedrosia or similar results from those calculators that call it out:

Dodecad K12b - 6.31%
MDLP K23b - 4.40%
HarappaWorld - 7.15%

MitchellSince1893
01-25-2015, 09:47 PM
...
Would anyone else be interested in putting forth theories as to why some of us have these higher numbers, and also why they don't show on 23andme? I originally suspected that it was simply an ancient remnant found in Northwest Europeans, kind of like a sticky spot that has just continued to mix over and over in that population and if anyone else feels the same than lets discuss that. Any input at all is appreciated.

PS: Contrary to the title, all others are welcome to as well :)
Romany ancestry could be the source of the South Indian.
My father is the opposite...he has south Indian on 23andme and near eastern on myorigins. He is a unique case though because he has known ancestors from India...2.3% of ancestry. He also has currently unknown romany ancestry as he shares the same autosomal segments with individuals from Britain, Sweden, and Romania...all having Romany ancestors.

rod
01-26-2015, 04:17 AM
ftDNA: 0% (11% British, 85% Western & Central European)
23andme 0.1% South Asian (62.0% British, 36.4% Northern European)

HarappaWorld: 0.14%
Eurogenes K13: 0.42%
Dodecad V3: 0.07%
MDLP K23b: 0.18%

jesus
01-26-2015, 06:01 AM
Could the Baloch/south Indian admixture in Europe be linked to the Indo-Europeans or Steppe Migrations ?

Baltimore1937
01-26-2015, 10:11 AM
I have not downloaded my raw data. I only took the FTDNA and Ancestry.com autosomal tests. FTDNA gives me 100% European. Ancestry gives me 98% European, plus 1% Caucasus and "<1%" South Asian. I notice that a few matches at Ancestry with trace South Asian seem to point to Wales. I also recall a match with S-A with someone with old Maryland connections. But I didn't try to keep track of all that on paper, etc.

Stephen1986
01-26-2015, 02:50 PM
Geno 2.0 - 0% for myself whilst my brother hasn't had this test done.
FTDNA Origins - 0% for both of us.
MDLP K23b - 0.07% for myself, 1.19% for my brother.
Eurogenes K13 - 0.25% for myself, 1.75% for my brother.
Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 - 0% for myself, 1.68% for my brother.
Dodecad K12b - 0.27% for myself, 0.86% for my brother.
Dodecad World9 - 1.3% for myself, 2.33% for my brother.

SwampThing27
01-26-2015, 04:57 PM
Geno 2.0 - 0% for myself whilst my brother hasn't had this test done.
FTDNA Origins - 0% for both of us.
MDLP K23b - 0.07% for myself, 1.19% for my brother.
Eurogenes K13 - 0.25% for myself, 1.75% for my brother.
Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 - 0% for myself, 1.68% for my brother.
Dodecad K12b - 0.27% for myself, 0.86% for my brother.
Dodecad World9 - 1.3% for myself, 2.33% for my brother.

Well, in that case perhaps there isnt anything ancestrally specific about a higher South Asian score, since you and your brother obviously have the same ancestors. Maybe its just the way the DNA combined on some chunk of SNPs yo give a South Asian vibe. Or maybe a chunk that your brother inherited that you didnt.

Little bit
01-26-2015, 05:32 PM
My grandfather get's .3 South Asian at 23andme and he is 94% UK and 6% Prussian. I sent his raw data to Dr. McDonald and he declared he was 100% English and found no evidence of South Asian. His brother is tested and the same chunk of DNA shows up as general European with a white chunk of unassigned in the middle, so clearly it's a problematic segment for both of them them. His brother get's no South Asian, nor does his daughter, or any of the rest of us. Here are his numbers:

23andme - .3% on speculative; .1% on standard (surrounded by unassigned); 0% S. Asian, the segment is 100% unassigned on conservative
Geno 2.0 - Not tested there
FTDNA Origins - 0%
MDLP K23b - 0%
Eurogenes K13 - 0%
Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 - 0%
Dodecad K12b - 0%
Dodecad World9 - 0%

It's funny that not a single calculator found any South Asian for him! Not sure what to make of it but the segment is problematic for both brothers since it becomes increasingly unassigned depending on the threshold. Here is a visual of the segment on the different thresholds:

http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae20/LB234/th_ScreenShot2015-01-26at112740AM_zpse1f0bd0b-1.png (http://s953.photobucket.com/user/LB234/media/ScreenShot2015-01-26at112740AM_zpse1f0bd0b-1.png.html)

SwampThing27
01-26-2015, 06:29 PM
Another thing I realized just yesterday is that my South Asian on these gedmatch calculators is on chromosome 18, along with my Sub Saharan African that I typically get, all bunched into one region on this chromosome. Basically half of my chromosome 18 is pretty much non-European on gedmatch calculators. On 23andme, this area on chromosome 18 is labeled as entirely Sub Saharan African instead of a mix between SSA and South Asian. Maybe there is a close affinity between these two components on Gedmatch and it is assigning some to SSA and the rest to South Asian?:\

Gray Fox
01-26-2015, 07:13 PM
Another thing I realized just yesterday is that my South Asian on these gedmatch calculators is on chromosome 18, along with my Sub Saharan African that I typically get, all bunched into one region on this chromosome. Basically half of my chromosome 18 is pretty much non-European on gedmatch calculators. On 23andme, this area on chromosome 18 is labeled as entirely Sub Saharan African instead of a mix between SSA and South Asian. Maybe there is a close affinity between these two components on Gedmatch and it is assigning some to SSA and the rest to South Asian?:\

I think these calculators just have trouble sorting out those with mostly Colonial roots. As you know, I too have higher than average SA scores. I can't post all of them right now, as my computer apparently contracted a terminal disease when I let someone else use it. Gotta love those considerate family members!

Anyway, I can tell you my K13 and K15 scores. 2.36 for k13 and 1.90 for K15. Odd that we both have non-Euro on the same chromosome.. I show either North East African or Sub-Saharan African on chromosome 18 and a smaller, albeit chunkier segment on six. Yet I'm generally listed as having zero sub-Saharan and around .66 North East African. I'm like you, something seems off here. It seems quite a few people of otherwise mostly euro descent seem to show these oddball percentages on the same chromosomes.

I'm still waiting on MacDonald to get back to me. Though I feel that may be a while..

randwulf
01-26-2015, 10:52 PM
In support of the line of thinking here, the following is a snippet of my Chromosome 3 from Eurogenes K13:

3607

The "Kelly Green" color is the "South Asian" component. Surrounding in order of apparent amount (greatest to least) is Baltic, West Med, Northeast_African, Amerindian, Red Sea, West Asian, East Med, Siberian, and a very small amount of North_Atlantic.

The following is the same section in MDLP K23b:

3608

In this one the "South Indian" component is an olive green. It is there, but kind of small hanging from the top, mostly on the left side but a thin sliver in other spots. The dominant color is the Kelly Green which is the European_Hunters_Gatherers. It still has a mixed up appearance with (greatest to least again, best guess on the finer distinctions) Caucasian, North_African, Ancestral_Altaic, Amerindian, East Siberian, European_Early_Farmers, Near East, Arctic, Australoid, East African, South Central Asian, Khoisan, and Melano_Polynesian. The last two are really small portions. A lot of places mostly east and south of Europe make up a lot of the pieces.

I have a lot of these segments spread throughout the chromosomes and maybe everyone does. Some chromosomes look a little more solidly European mixed than others, I guess. At any rate the snippets that are Asian or African are interpreted differently, but the common thing is the jumbled up nature of the interpretation and possible ties between the small components that make up the sum total.

Salkin
01-27-2015, 08:36 AM
Geno 2.0 - 0%
FTDNA - 0%
23andMe - 0%
MDLP K23b - 0.55% (South Indian)
Eurogenes K13 - 2.48%
Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 - 1.92%
Dodecad K12b - 0.99%
Dodecad World9 - 1.45%
Dodecad V3 - 1.24%
Dodecad K7b - 1.93%
HarappaWorld - 0.23% (S-Indian)

randwulf
01-28-2015, 12:28 AM
Geno 2.0 - 0%
FTDNA - 0%
23andMe - 0%
MDLP K23b - 2.56% (South Central Asian is what we're after, right?)
Eurogenes K13 - 2.48%
Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 - 1.92%
Dodecad K12b - 0.99%
Dodecad World9 - 1.45%
Dodecad V3 - 1.24%
Dodecad K7b - 1.93%
HarappaWorld - 0.23% (S-Indian)

I didn't use South Central Asian, actually, so if that is what is to be reported, I would have to add in that to things like Indian, South Indian, South Asian, etc. that I was reporting.

SwampThing27
01-28-2015, 12:37 AM
I didn't use South Central Asian, actually, so if that is what is to be reported, I would have to add in that to things like Indian, South Indian, South Asian, etc. that I was reporting.

I also didn't use South Central Asian for that calculator. Only South Indian.

Salkin
01-28-2015, 02:49 AM
I also didn't use South Central Asian for that calculator. Only South Indian.

Thanks, guys. I edited the post to use South Indian.

JerryS.
10-01-2020, 12:00 AM
I really would like to pin down the South Asian (Indian) component in those of us from British descent. As many have noticed, Northwest Europeans tend to have more of this component than other Europeans and it is something that has interested me since the first time I uploaded my data to Gedmatch. Note that I show ZERO South Asian on 23andme's ancestry composition and also only show European on FTDNA's MyOrigins, but I will start by posting my South Asian scores for various Gedmatch calculators as well as my result from DNAtribes. All of these numbers are higher than the averages for my respective ancestral populations. (British, French, German, Dutch)

Harapaworld: 1.27%
Eurogenes K13: 3.25%
Dodecad V3: 2.45%
MDLPK 23b: 1.67%
DNA Tribes: Gangetic North-Central India 6.4% and Brahmin Andhra Pradesh India: 1.7%
23andme: 0%
FTDNA: 0%

Would anyone else be interested in putting forth theories as to why some of us have these higher numbers, and also why they don't show on 23andme? I originally suspected that it was simply an ancient remnant found in Northwest Europeans, kind of like a sticky spot that has just continued to mix over and over in that population and if anyone else feels the same than lets discuss that. Any input at all is appreciated.

PS: Contrary to the title, all others are welcome to as well :)

South Asian huh? ok, I'll play

regular Ancestry*. 0
regular 23/me. 0

Gedmatch Ancestry data
Harapaworld, S-Indian 0.09 Pct
Eurogenes K13, South_Asian 0.55 Pct
Dodecad V3, South_Asian 1.01 Pct
MDLP K23b, South_Indian - 0

Gedmatch 23 data
Harapaworld, S-Indian - 0
Eurogenes K13, South_Asian 0.08 Pct
Dodecad V3, South_Asian -
MDLP K23b, South_Indian 0.13 Pct

I have considerable NW. European with at least 50% being from the UK, but I have very little to no S. Asian using those two big companies and their data transferred to Gedmatch.

Nqp15hhu
10-11-2020, 12:16 AM
I really would like to pin down the South Asian (Indian) component in those of us from British descent. As many have noticed, Northwest Europeans tend to have more of this component than other Europeans and it is something that has interested me since the first time I uploaded my data to Gedmatch. Note that I show ZERO South Asian on 23andme's ancestry composition and also only show European on FTDNA's MyOrigins, but I will start by posting my South Asian scores for various Gedmatch calculators as well as my result from DNAtribes. All of these numbers are higher than the averages for my respective ancestral populations. (British, French, German, Dutch)

Harapaworld: 1.27%
Eurogenes K13: 3.25%
Dodecad V3: 2.45%
MDLPK 23b: 1.67%
DNA Tribes: Gangetic North-Central India 6.4% and Brahmin Andhra Pradesh India: 1.7%
23andme: 0%
FTDNA: 0%

Would anyone else be interested in putting forth theories as to why some of us have these higher numbers, and also why they don't show on 23andme? I originally suspected that it was simply an ancient remnant found in Northwest Europeans, kind of like a sticky spot that has just continued to mix over and over in that population and if anyone else feels the same than lets discuss that. Any input at all is appreciated.

PS: Contrary to the title, all others are welcome to as well :)

I have this myself, with 1-2% on most of these calculators and on my original AncestryDNA results.

Harapaworld: 0.18%
Eurogenes K13: 2.64%
Dodecad V3: 1.94%
MDLPK 23b:0% but 8.88% South Central Asian
FTDNA: 0%

AncestryDNA: 1%
MyHeritage: 1.2%