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redifflal
01-26-2015, 01:12 AM
Pretty much in line with her Punjabi Khatri+Jatt background (I'm not sure about the castes). Unfortunately she has no brothers that we could get the Y-DNA from as well. I thought I scored a high non-homo-sapien aggregate, but she's beat me by a good bit. Also as others on this forum have noted, Genographic is placing most Punjabis and other north Indians with Pamiris and Western Indians as their Northern Indian reference set is too Northeast Asian biased. Her mitochondrial is rooted in India to paleolithic era.

Sapporo
01-29-2015, 06:17 AM
She has almost identical results to a no longer active forum member Paul Gill who is of a Jatt Sikh background. Based on the similarity of my Gedmatch admixture results to Paul Gill, I think I would be a carbon copy of him as well on this test with 1-2% differences at most across each component.

They are on Dr_McNinja's spreadsheet below on the Geno 2.0 tab but I will post them:

SW Asian: 50%
SE Asian: 15%
Mediterranean: 19%
Northern European: 13%
NE Asian: 2%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE&usp=drive_web#gid=11

Also, you describe your wife to be of a Khatri-Jatt background? Those marriages are very uncommon. May I ask any of her families surnames you are familiar with? Feel free to pm me if you are willingly to share them privately.

redifflal
01-29-2015, 01:24 PM
She has almost identical results to a no longer active forum member Paul Gill who is of a Jatt Sikh background. Based on the similarity of my Gedmatch admixture results to Paul Gill, I think I would be a carbon copy of him as well on this test with 1-2% differences at most across each component.

They are on Dr_McNinja's spreadsheet below on the Geno 2.0 tab but I will post them:

SW Asian: 50%
SE Asian: 15%
Mediterranean: 19%
Northern European: 13%
NE Asian: 2%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE&usp=drive_web#gid=11

Also, you describe your wife to be of a Khatri-Jatt background? Those marriages are very uncommon. May I ask any of her families surnames you are familiar with? Feel free to pm me if you are willingly to share them privately.

Her parents, like mine, also did a love marriage as opposed to arranged, hence the unconventionaity of it. I'll pm you and anyone else that wants the last names. I'm unsure of the castes since I consider it rude and rustic to ask someone for it (kaunsi jaat ka hai in my bhaiyya impression). I had to pry out info about their ancestral homes once since both had moved during partition and lost loved ones during it. I believe the dad's side is close to Peshawar and mom's is close to Rawalpindi, don't know the exact villages or districts though.

Sapporo
01-29-2015, 05:54 PM
Her parents, like mine, also did a love marriage as opposed to arranged, hence the unconventionaity of it. I'll pm you and anyone else that wants the last names. I'm unsure of the castes since I consider it rude and rustic to ask someone for it (kaunsi jaat ka hai in my bhaiyya impression). I had to pry out info about their ancestral homes once since both had moved during partition and lost loved ones during it. I believe the dad's side is close to Peshawar and mom's is close to Rawalpindi, don't know the exact villages or districts though.

I see. That's pretty interesting. Good to know that some families are mixing more often. Unfortunately, even in the west, most tribes or castes like Jatts and Khatris rarely are willing to intermarry with other Punjabis let alone non Punjabis.

Interesting to note that Peshawari Punjabis are essentially entirely Khatri (at least those who have lived there for generation) as well as those in Afghanistan. They are usually of merchant backgrounds. Rawalpindi is a Rajput stronghold with pockets of other groups I believe.

redifflal
01-29-2015, 06:52 PM
I see. That's pretty interesting. Good to know that some families are mixing more often. Unfortunately, even in the west, most tribes or castes like Jatts and Khatris rarely are willing to intermarry with other Punjabis let alone non Punjabis.

Interesting to note that Peshawari Punjabis are essentially entirely Khatri (at least those who have lived there for generation) as well as those in Afghanistan. They are usually of merchant backgrounds. Rawalpindi is a Rajput stronghold with pockets of other groups I believe.

I think it is depending on the education level and female empowerment level in the family as to marrying out. Both our parents were trendsetters in their generations by marrying inter-caste, and inter-ethnic in my case, but nowadays these unions are a dime a dozen. The diaspora can in fact be more conservative than people in India themselves. In places like Mumbai, Bengaluru, Gurgaon, all these IT hubs, there are so many inter-ethnic marriages happening. I'd say the only union that will never become normalized is Muslim-Hindu or Muslim-Sikh, and vegetarian-Hindu/Jain with non-vegetarian of any kind, and this is due to religious compulsions of the former in both cases. But as for castes and ethnicities, I think things are entering a fluid state once again, mainly due to economic mobility.

One more interesting note is the transition of identities itself, especially in the era of IPL. People in the younger generation identify more with their cities. Perhaps the language-based ethnic identity is becoming a rural relic.

bored
01-29-2015, 08:19 PM
I see. That's pretty interesting. Good to know that some families are mixing more often. Unfortunately, even in the west, most tribes or castes like Jatts and Khatris rarely are willing to intermarry with other Punjabis let alone non Punjabis.

Interesting to note that Peshawari Punjabis are essentially entirely Khatri (at least those who have lived there for generation) as well as those in Afghanistan. They are usually of merchant backgrounds. Rawalpindi is a Rajput stronghold with pockets of other groups I believe.

I think only Sikhs are that conservative. Hindu khatris often marry out of their caste.

Sapporo
01-29-2015, 08:19 PM
I think only Sikhs are that conservative. Hindu khatris often marry out of their caste.

Fair point. I'm not that familiar with the marriage customs of Hindu Khatris since most I know are Sikh.

bored
01-29-2015, 09:00 PM
Fair point. I'm not that familiar with the marriage customs of Hindu Khatris since most I know are Sikh.

Sikhs only make up a minority of Khatris I think.

redifflal
01-29-2015, 09:18 PM
Speaking of Khatris, what do you guys think of this article by Rajesh Kochchar?
http://rajeshkochhar.com/on-the-origin-of-the-punjabi-khatris/

He says at the end that genetic testing may validate some of these theories, but I doubt it.

Sapporo
01-29-2015, 10:11 PM
Sikhs only make up a minority of Khatris I think.

Yes, however, they are a significant minority are probably some of the most vocal among Sikhs. At least compared to their Jatt counterparts who make up the vast majority of Sikhs.

Sapporo
01-29-2015, 10:14 PM
Speaking of Khatris, what do you guys think of this article by Rajesh Kochchar?
http://rajeshkochhar.com/on-the-origin-of-the-punjabi-khatris/

He says at the end that genetic testing may validate some of these theories, but I doubt it.

Khatris don't seem much different than the Sikh Jatts or even Hindu Sindhis for that matter on HAP. They have a tendency to show a little more of the Caucasus component and a less of the NE Euro components on Gedmatch calculators but the sample size is too small to make much out of it.

kenji.aryan
01-30-2015, 02:04 AM
I think only Sikhs are that conservative. Hindu khatris often marry out of their caste.

One of my father friend (Rajput from punjab-Himachal boder) daughter's married inter caste's one into khatri family and other into baniya family and there was not even a single objection related to caste.


I also agree majority of khatri are hindus, i have khatri friends and all of them are hindus.

parasar
01-30-2015, 07:31 PM
Speaking of Khatris, what do you guys think of this article by Rajesh Kochchar?
http://rajeshkochhar.com/on-the-origin-of-the-punjabi-khatris/

He says at the end that genetic testing may validate some of these theories, but I doubt it.

Unless the Greeks of yore were quite different from the Greeks of today, there is no doubt that Y-dna composition of Greeks and Khatris are different. There is some overlap of J2 and R1a, but even these overlaps are superficial once we look at the downstream SNPs.

The legend is that Khatris gave up martial pursuits and became a mercantile class due to the mythological personage Parashuram. We do not know if there is any historic merit to this mythology. There have been few claimants to the Parashuram mantle including Samudragupta and Gautamiputra.

The Sikh gurus were all Khatris and a few of them were well versed in the Vedic tradition per their name Bedi (eg. Guru Nanak Rai). Some of this is described by Guru Gobind Rai (Singh) in his autobiography. http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Bachitar_Natak