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Jessie
01-27-2015, 06:13 AM
Does anyone have any idea of why ANE is quite high in North West Europe? Here is my mother's and my K8. I plot on the border of Northern and Eastern Europe and my mother plots in Eastern Europe. We are both Irish. There is no information on the Irish population for this. The Irish appear to be similar to the West Scots in ANE.

Mine

ANE 0.158429
South_Eurasian 0.00305
Near_Eastern 0.384229
East_Eurasian 1E-005
WHG 0.453869
Oceanian 0.000393
Pygmy 1E-005
Sub-Saharan 1E-005



Lower bound NE

ANE 0.156524
South_Eurasian 0.005765
Near_Eastern 0.346246
East_Eurasian 1E-005
WHG 0.489913
Oceanian 0.001522
Pygmy 1E-005
Sub-Saharan 1E-005

I'll post images later

My mother

ANE 0.161975
South_Eurasian 0.007057
Near_Eastern 0.386478
East_Eurasian 1E-005
WHG 0.443603
Oceanian 0.000857
Pygmy 1E-005
Sub-Saharan 1E-005



Lower bound NE

ANE 0.160113
South_Eurasian 0.009684
Near_Eastern 0.349168
East_Eurasian 1E-005
WHG 0.479065
Oceanian 0.001939
Pygmy 1E-005
Sub-Saharan 1E-005

Jessie
01-27-2015, 07:53 AM
I wonder what the Welsh score in ANE? There appears to be not very much information on the genetics of Wales. I'm just wondering whether the older populations of the British Isles have more ANE? I know that the West Scots have higher amounts and judging from myself and my mother the Irish as well.

Any input would be welcome.

rms2
01-27-2015, 12:27 PM
I'm guessing that the "Celtic Fringe" of the Isles, which seems higher in ANE than the more Anglo-Saxon southeast, received a substantial shot of ANE with the arrival of the Beaker Folk, and that infusion was not substantially diluted by later arrivals, as it was elsewhere.

I'm not sure how else one would explain it, although it might be interesting to hear some ideas on that subject.

Jessie
01-27-2015, 12:36 PM
From reading a little bit on this Forum and others, Bell Beaker is supposed to be from Portugal or possibly from the Rhine area and they appear to have less ANE than the Insular Celtic populations especially Iberia. I suppose it is possible that Bell Beaker was higher in ANE and incoming populations lessened it in the Iberian area and Germany. Yes it would be great if more people would chime in and give their opinion.

rms2
01-27-2015, 12:43 PM
From reading a little bit on this Forum and others, Bell Beaker is supposed to be from Portugal or possibly from the Rhine area and they appear to have less ANE than the Insular Celtic populations especially Iberia. I suppose it is possible that Bell Beaker was higher in ANE and incoming populations lessened it in the Iberian area and Germany. Yes it would be great if more people would chime in and give their opinion.

Bell Beaker pots may have originated in Iberia (although the techniques used in their manufacture have steppe antecedents), but R1b has a clear east-to-west phylogeography. The developed version of Beaker that got carried to the Isles circa 2400-2300 BC was probably more like this description of Beaker by Marija Gimbutas:



The Bell Beaker complex, an offshoot of the Vucedol bloc (more precisely of the Zok-Mako group in Hungary) continued Kurgan charateristics. The Bell Beaker of the second half of the 3rd millenium BC were vagabondic horse riders and archers in much the same way as their uncles and cousins, the Corded people of northern Europe and Catacomb-grave people of the North Pontic region. Their spread over central and western Europe to the British Isles and Spain as well as the Mediterranean islands terminates the period of expansion and destruction.

In western Hungary and northwestern Yugoslavia, the Vucedol complex was followed by the Samogyvar-Vinkovci complex, the predecessor of the Bell Beaker people. Furthermore, the exodus of the horse-riding Bell Beaker people in the middle of the 3rd millenium, or soon thereafter, from the territories of the Vucedol complex, may not be unconnected with the constant threat from the east. They carried to the west Kurgan traditions in armament, social structure, and religion. The fact of paramount importance of Bell Beaker mobility is the presence of the horse. Seven Bell Beaker sites at Budapest in Hungary have shown that the horse was the foremost species of the domestic fauna.

That is from Gimbutas' book, The Kurgan Culture and the Indo-Europeanization of Europe. I can get page numbers for you, if you like, but I have them at home.

I would not assume that the Beaker Folk who went to the Isles were like modern Portuguese or Spaniards in terms of ANE.

SwampThing27
01-27-2015, 05:03 PM
I have a feeling that more indigeounous British = more ANE. I get 14.7 ANE which is up around West Scottish numbers if i recall correctly and i usually plot somewhere between Cornwall and Brittany.

rms2
01-27-2015, 08:07 PM
I have a feeling that more indigeounous British = more ANE. I get 14.7 ANE which is up around West Scottish numbers if i recall correctly and i usually plot somewhere between Cornwall and Brittany.

It depends on what one means by indigenous.

I think of indigenous as meaning the first people in the Isles, i.e., those who moved in 10kya or so. They would not have had any ANE but would have been like the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers found at La Braña and Loschbour; so ANE was brought to the Isles by relative newcomers and is not indigenous.

ANE is based on what was recovered of the genome of Mal'ta Boy, whose remains were recovered near Lake Baikal in Siberia. He belonged to y haplogroup R* and mtDNA haplogroup U*.

Since ANE appears to have been brought to western Europe from the East, one has to look for an eastern source for it, IMHO. R1b has an east-to-west phylogeography, so it strikes me as the most likely candidate, at least as far as y haplogroups are concerned. It is also to date the only y haplogroup recovered in ancient Bell Beaker remains.

Another thing that is of eastern origin that is found in northwestern Europe: Indo-European languages and, in this case, Celtic languages in particular.

Those are the connections in my opinion: ANE> R1b> Beaker> Italo-Celtic languages (in the West anyway).

MJost
01-27-2015, 09:23 PM
It depends on what one means by indigenous.

I think of indigenous as meaning the first people in the Isles, i.e., those who moved in 10kya or so. They would not have had any ANE but would have been like the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers found at La Braña and Loschbour; so ANE was brought to the Isles by relative newcomers and is not indigenous.

ANE is based on what was recovered of the genome of Mal'ta Boy, whose remains were recovered near Lake Baikal in Siberia. He belonged to y haplogroup R* and mtDNA haplogroup U*.

Since ANE appears to have been brought to western Europe from the East, one has to look for an eastern source for it, IMHO. R1b has an east-to-west phylogeography, so it strikes me as the most likely candidate, at least as far as y haplogroups are concerned. It is also to date the only y haplogroup recovered in ancient Bell Beaker remains.

Another thing that is of eastern origin that is found in northwestern Europe: Indo-European languages and, in this case, Celtic languages in particular.

Those are the connections in my opinion: ANE> R1b> Beaker> Italo-Celtic languages (in the West anyway).

You may have nailed the flow of ANE.

On page 76 there is a statement:

"The absence of Y-haplogroup R1b in our two sample locations... This casts doubt on early suggestions associating these haplogroups with Paleolithic Europeans, and is more Neolithic entry into Europe at least in the case of R1b... Interestingly, the Mal’ta boy (MA1) belonged to haplogroup R* and we tentatively suggest that some haplogroup R bearers maybe responsible for the wider dissemination of Ancestral North Eurasian ancestry into Europe, as their haplogroup Q relatives may have plausibly done into the Americas, ..."

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1312/1312.6639.pdf

MJost

Jessie
01-28-2015, 03:24 AM
Thanks everyone for your input. R1b is common all over Western Europe and places like Spain have R1b but still there is quite a difference between ANE in the Irish and Scots compared to Spain. There is nearly twice as much from what I've seen. Davidski commented that I have elevated ANE for a North Western European although looking at it this seems to be in line with the West Scots and Norwegians etc.

MJost
01-28-2015, 04:31 AM
This is my results:
ANE 15.63 Ancient North Eurasians
EEF 46.28 Early European Farmers
WHG 38.09 West European Hunter-Gatherers

In the study, here is the admix chart.

Table S14.10: Averaged admixture proportions for European populations. Each proportion
represents the mean over all fits with compatible populations; the range of the successful fits is also
shown. (page 118 or page 159 in the PDF)

I took the liberty to sort the ANE high to low. I fit visually closest to Orcadian.


EEF HG ANE (Sorted High to low)
Mean Range Mean Range Mean Range

Estonian 0.323 0.293-0.345 0.490 0.451-0.520 0.187 0.172-0.205
Hungarian 0.548 0.520-0.590 0.279 0.199-0.313 0.174 0.156-0.210
Scottish 0.408 0.387-0.424 0.421 0.384-0.448 0.171 0.149-0.201
Belarusian 0.426 0.397-0.464 0.408 0.338-0.443 0.167 0.150-0.199
Czech 0.489 0.460-0.531 0.348 0.273-0.382 0.163 0.145-0.196
Greek 0.791 0.780-0.816 0.048 0.019-0.060 0.161 0.150-0.171
Lithuanian 0.352 0.327-0.384 0.488 0.433-0.527 0.160 0.135-0.184
Norwegian 0.417 0.388-0.438 0.423 0.383-0.450 0.160 0.140-0.181
Ukrainian 0.463 0.445-0.491 0.376 0.322-0.399 0.160 0.148-0.187
Orcadian 0.465 0.439-0.493 0.378 0.329-0.403 0.157 0.140-0.179
Bulgarian 0.718 0.707-0.778 0.132 0.047-0.151 0.151 0.138-0.175
Croatian 0.564 0.548-0.586 0.285 0.242-0.310 0.151 0.137-0.172
English 0.503 0.476-0.536 0.353 0.296-0.382 0.144 0.130-0.169
Icelandic 0.409 0.386-0.424 0.448 0.409-0.473 0.143 0.126-0.170
French 0.563 0.537-0.601 0.297 0.230-0.328 0.140 0.126-0.169
Albanian 0.781 0.772-0.819 0.082 0.032-0.098 0.137 0.129-0.158
Tuscan 0.751 0.737-0.806 0.123 0.047-0.145 0.126 0.114-0.150
Bergamo 0.721 0.704-0.793 0.163 0.061-0.189 0.117 0.104-0.147
Spanish 0.759 0.736-0.804 0.126 0.066-0.170 0.115 0.091-0.151
FrenchSo 0.636 0.589-0.738 0.256 0.111-0.323 0.108 0.088-0.151
Basque 0.569 0.527-0.616 0.335 0.255-0.392 0.096 0.076-0.129
SpanishNo 0.612 0.561-0.660 0.292 0.214-0.365 0.096 0.072-0.126
Sardinian 0.818 0.791-0.874 0.141 0.058-0.182 0.041 0.026-0.068



MJost

jeanL
01-28-2015, 05:07 AM
@Jessie I find it interesting that both you and your mother have the same level of WHG as Basques do, their WHG average is:

The Basque_French(n=21) averages for the higher-bound Near Eastern are:

Near_Eastern: 47.4216% (Min: 44.2158%-Max:50.1376%)
WHG: 45.8061%(Min: 43.5222%-Max:48.5353%)
ANE: 5.9517% (Min: 4.2301%-Max:7.3805%)

The Spanish_Pais_Vasco(n=8) averages for the higher-bound Near Eastern are:

Near_Eastern: 47.3770% (Min: 46.0361%-Max:49.7027%)
WHG: 44.9231%(Min: 44.4471%-Max:46.1506%)
ANE: 6.7214% (Min: 5.5591%-Max:7.4071%)

It appears the main difference between the Basque and Irish is not higher WHG in the latter, but lower Near_Eastern and higher ANE in the Irish. Yet both populations are vastly derived from R1b-P312+ clades, the main difference being Irish being mostly L21 derived, and Basques DF27, however L21 reaches levels up to 20% in certain regions of the Basque Country. How significant is DF27 in Ireland? Something interesting is that while most French score lower in the WHG than Basques do, a couple do appear to score on the same range that is 43%+, namely:

HGDP00515 43.2936%
HGDP00518 44.1554%
HGDP00519 44.159%
HGDP00523 44.7228%
HGDP00531 44.1846%
HGDP00533 437728%
HGDP00534 43.5566%
HGDP00535 43.8364%

I wonder where these folks are from in France?

Jessie
01-28-2015, 05:07 AM
This is my results:
ANE 15.63 Ancient North Eurasians
EEF 46.28 Early European Farmers
WHG 38.09 West European Hunter-Gatherers

In the study, here is the admix chart.

Table S14.10: Averaged admixture proportions for European populations. Each proportion
represents the mean over all fits with compatible populations; the range of the successful fits is also
shown. (page 118 or page 159 in the PDF)

I took the liberty to sort the ANE high to low. I fit visually closest to Orcadian.


EEF HG ANE (Sorted High to low)
Mean Range Mean Range Mean Range

Estonian 0.323 0.293-0.345 0.490 0.451-0.520 0.187 0.172-0.205
Hungarian 0.548 0.520-0.590 0.279 0.199-0.313 0.174 0.156-0.210
Scottish 0.408 0.387-0.424 0.421 0.384-0.448 0.171 0.149-0.201
Belarusian 0.426 0.397-0.464 0.408 0.338-0.443 0.167 0.150-0.199
Czech 0.489 0.460-0.531 0.348 0.273-0.382 0.163 0.145-0.196
Greek 0.791 0.780-0.816 0.048 0.019-0.060 0.161 0.150-0.171
Lithuanian 0.352 0.327-0.384 0.488 0.433-0.527 0.160 0.135-0.184
Norwegian 0.417 0.388-0.438 0.423 0.383-0.450 0.160 0.140-0.181
Ukrainian 0.463 0.445-0.491 0.376 0.322-0.399 0.160 0.148-0.187
Orcadian 0.465 0.439-0.493 0.378 0.329-0.403 0.157 0.140-0.179
Bulgarian 0.718 0.707-0.778 0.132 0.047-0.151 0.151 0.138-0.175
Croatian 0.564 0.548-0.586 0.285 0.242-0.310 0.151 0.137-0.172
English 0.503 0.476-0.536 0.353 0.296-0.382 0.144 0.130-0.169
Icelandic 0.409 0.386-0.424 0.448 0.409-0.473 0.143 0.126-0.170
French 0.563 0.537-0.601 0.297 0.230-0.328 0.140 0.126-0.169
Albanian 0.781 0.772-0.819 0.082 0.032-0.098 0.137 0.129-0.158
Tuscan 0.751 0.737-0.806 0.123 0.047-0.145 0.126 0.114-0.150
Bergamo 0.721 0.704-0.793 0.163 0.061-0.189 0.117 0.104-0.147
Spanish 0.759 0.736-0.804 0.126 0.066-0.170 0.115 0.091-0.151
FrenchSo 0.636 0.589-0.738 0.256 0.111-0.323 0.108 0.088-0.151
Basque 0.569 0.527-0.616 0.335 0.255-0.392 0.096 0.076-0.129
SpanishNo 0.612 0.561-0.660 0.292 0.214-0.365 0.096 0.072-0.126
Sardinian 0.818 0.791-0.874 0.141 0.058-0.182 0.041 0.026-0.068



MJost

Is this from the K8 or something else? Thanks

Agamemnon
01-28-2015, 05:08 AM
My mother is 14.75% ANE on Eurogenes' K7 ANE test, I wonder what she'd get with K8...

John Doe
01-28-2015, 05:12 AM
My mother is 14.75% ANE on Eurogenes' K7 ANE test, I wonder what she'd get with K8...

Hopefully Davidski will upload K8 on Gedmatch soon... I want to see what I'd get with it.

Agamemnon
01-28-2015, 05:23 AM
Hopefully Davidski will upload K8 on Gedmatch soon... I want to see what I'd get with it.

I think this would be a tad bit unfair to all those who actually paid for it ;)

jeanL
01-28-2015, 05:26 AM
I just checked on the K8 spreadsheet and what I found interesting is that the WHG average varies little between SE English, SW English, and Orcadians, it being ~45% for all of them. Scandinavians have ~47% WHG, and in Iberia it seems minus the Basques(WHG~45%), it makes it to >40% in very few individuals from Cantabria, Aragon, Valencia, but averages are down in the %30s. This posits the questions how can Basques retain the same amount of WHG(~45%) as NorthWest Euros, yet their ANE and Near Eastern ratios be so different, while still having great proportions of R1b-P312+ derived clades?

Jessie
01-28-2015, 06:55 AM
@Jessie I find it interesting that both you and your mother have the same level of WHG as Basques do, their WHG average is:

The Basque_French(n=21) averages for the higher-bound Near Eastern are:

Near_Eastern: 47.4216% (Min: 44.2158%-Max:50.1376%)
WHG: 45.8061%(Min: 43.5222%-Max:48.5353%)
ANE: 5.9517% (Min: 4.2301%-Max:7.3805%)

The Spanish_Pais_Vasco(n=8) averages for the higher-bound Near Eastern are:

Near_Eastern: 47.3770% (Min: 46.0361%-Max:49.7027%)
WHG: 44.9231%(Min: 44.4471%-Max:46.1506%)
ANE: 6.7214% (Min: 5.5591%-Max:7.4071%)

It appears the main difference between the Basque and Irish is not higher WHG in the latter, but lower Near_Eastern and higher ANE in the Irish. Yet both populations are vastly derived from R1b-P312+ clades, the main difference being Irish being mostly L21 derived, and Basques DF27, however L21 reaches levels up to 20% in certain regions of the Basque Country. How significant is DF27 in Ireland? Something interesting is that while most French score lower in the WHG than Basques do, a couple do appear to score on the same range that is 43%+, namely:

HGDP00515 43.2936%
HGDP00518 44.1554%
HGDP00519 44.159%
HGDP00523 44.7228%
HGDP00531 44.1846%
HGDP00533 437728%
HGDP00534 43.5566%
HGDP00535 43.8364%

I wonder where these folks are from in France?

Sorry JeanL I missed this when looking earlier. The Basque are quite distant from the Irish using autosomal dna even though I know that both populations have high R1b. I think west Europeans have similar amounts of WHG. I remember reading in the R1b forum that the D27 in Ireland appears to be carried by men with non-Gaelic names. One of the administrators was discussing it. Irish R1b is overwhelmingly L21. Maybe some more knowledgeable person can answer this in more detail.

Jessie
01-28-2015, 06:58 AM
I think this would be a tad bit unfair to all those who actually paid for it ;)

I think Davidski said he might possibly do one for Gedmatch but it won't be as accurate.

Jessie
01-28-2015, 07:09 AM
Here's my results on the K7 to compare.

Population
ANE 16.92%
ASE 1.02%
WHG-UHG 63.89%
East_Eurasian 1.17%
West_African -
East_African 0.20%
ENF 16.82%

Mother

Population
ANE 17.17%
ASE 1.75%
WHG-UHG 62.95%
East_Eurasian 0.61%
West_African -
East_African 0.45%
ENF 17.07%

rossa
01-28-2015, 07:21 AM
For comparison purposes, I'm Irish and my K7 results are

ANE 16.62
ASE 1.05
WHG-UHG 66.92
E Eurasian 0.27
W African 0.56
ENF 14.58

Jessie
01-28-2015, 07:23 AM
I just checked on the K8 spreadsheet and what I found interesting is that the WHG average varies little between SE English, SW English, and Orcadians, it being ~45% for all of them. Scandinavians have ~47% WHG, and in Iberia it seems minus the Basques(WHG~45%), it makes it to >40% in very few individuals from Cantabria, Aragon, Valencia, but averages are down in the %30s. This posits the questions how can Basques retain the same amount of WHG(~45%) as NorthWest Euros, yet their ANE and Near Eastern ratios be so different, while still having great proportions of R1b-P312+ derived clades?

Yes that is what interests me. Why so different as far as ANE and the Near Eastern now that you mention it?

Jessie
01-28-2015, 07:26 AM
For comparison purposes, I'm Irish and my K7 results are

ANE 16.62
ASE 1.05
WHG-UHG 66.92
E Eurasian 0.27
W African 0.56
ENF 14.58

Thank you. I've never seen many Irish results so it is great to compare. Your WHG is higher. What area of Ireland are you from Rossa?

Generalissimo
01-28-2015, 08:54 AM
The K7 results from GEDmatch can't be compared to the K8 scores.

Anyway, the Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, Yamnaya and other genomes are coming any week now, so we'll know a lot more after they're run with the K8.

rms2
01-28-2015, 12:30 PM
I just checked on the K8 spreadsheet and what I found interesting is that the WHG average varies little between SE English, SW English, and Orcadians, it being ~45% for all of them. Scandinavians have ~47% WHG, and in Iberia it seems minus the Basques(WHG~45%), it makes it to >40% in very few individuals from Cantabria, Aragon, Valencia, but averages are down in the %30s. This posits the questions how can Basques retain the same amount of WHG(~45%) as NorthWest Euros, yet their ANE and Near Eastern ratios be so different, while still having great proportions of R1b-P312+ derived clades?

That is a good question, and I have wondered about that myself. We know that Basques do have some ANE, and it had to come from somewhere. It seems to me the answer may be the route their y-dna ancestors took to what is now the Basque Country. Since the difference between them and more northerly populations with similar frequencies of R1b is the level of EEF or ENF (i.e., Neolithic farmer autosomal dna) versus ANE, and both groups have about the same proportion of WHG, then it is apparent that somewhere along the way the ancestors of the Basques diluted their proportion of ANE via admixture with a population or populations who were predominantly EEF. That to me implies a Mediterranean route to Iberia.

Meanwhile, the ancestors of the R1b in the Celtic Fringe of the Isles, predominantly L21, probably came up the Danube to the Rhine and thence to the Isles.

Maybe someone else can suggest another scenario, but that one makes the most sense to me.

Just for fun, here's what I get with Eurogenes K7, and my ancestry is predominantly British Isles:

ANE 16.39%
WHG-UHG 64.42%
ENF 15.49%

rms2
01-28-2015, 01:17 PM
The K7 results from GEDmatch can't be compared to the K8 scores.

Anyway, the Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, Yamnaya and other genomes are coming any week now, so we'll know a lot more after they're run with the K8.

I hope that comes sooner rather than later.

There are supposed to be Beaker genomes among the results?

I hope there is plenty of y-dna in all that.

John Doe
01-28-2015, 01:35 PM
I think this would be a tad bit unfair to all those who actually paid for it ;)

I suppose. However, if he will do that 6 months from now or a year from now, it won't be unfair, because then one gets something a year earlier thanks to his payed contribution.

randwulf
01-28-2015, 01:40 PM
HGDP00515 43.2936%
HGDP00518 44.1554%
HGDP00519 44.159%
HGDP00523 44.7228%
HGDP00531 44.1846%
HGDP00533 437728%
HGDP00534 43.5566%
HGDP00535 43.8364%

I wonder where these folks are from in France?

FWIW - I scored about 43.5% WHG on the K8 and Davidski said that I plotted with the Northeast French. So, that may be the answer.

MJost
01-28-2015, 02:06 PM
I used my Eurogenes K13 (Davidski) over on Gedmatch.com and I converted it based on his posting.

Saturday, December 28, 2013
EEF-WHG-ANE test for Europeans
http://bga101.blogspot.com/2013/12/eef-whg-ane-test-for-europeans.html

MJost

rossa
01-28-2015, 02:41 PM
Thank you. I've never seen many Irish results so it is great to compare. Your WHG is higher. What area of Ireland are you from Rossa?

I'm from Donegal, no other ancestry I'm aware of but my haplogroup suggests my male line arrived from Scotland suring the plantation or shortly before it.

I always scored higher than average in the Western European/Northern European/Atlantic type components in other calculators.

MJost
01-28-2015, 03:18 PM
My Eurogenes ANE K7 model results via Gedmatch.com

http://bga101.blogspot.com.au/
Population
ANE 15.90%
ASE 2.78%
WHG-UHG 64.42%
East_Eurasian 0.15%
West_African 0.86%
East_African 0.21%
ENF 15.69%

Davidski states that 'EEF is not a stable ancestral component. It's actually a composite of at least two ancient components, including the so called Basal Eurasian and WHG-UHG.'

His West Eurasia K8 test is a pay test.
West Eurasia K8 is an improved version of ANE K7 ancestry test
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2014/12/ane-is-primary-cause-of-west-to-east.html

Paraphrasing his comments "~K8 gives more accurate estimates of Western European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) and Near Eastern admixture proportions, using new ancient samples.'

One important ancient DNA, to me, is Britian's Hinxton4 who is around 2K ybp. This one has a close ANE value similar to me.

Hinxton4 (Iron Age) - part of a L21>DF13>DF21 family
ANE 15.08
South_Eurasian 0.06
Near_Eastern 35.44
East_Eurasian 0.46
WHG 48.5
Oceanian 0
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0.46

MJost

MJost
01-28-2015, 03:43 PM
Davidski does post an interesting trend, 'ancestry proportions for the five ancient genomes in this analysis, in chronological order. ... the rising and falling Near Eastern admixture, from the Mesolithic to Neolithic and then from the Neolithic to Bronze Age, respectively, as well as the steady rise of ANE from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age.'

Loschbour (Mesolithic)

ANE 0
South_Eurasian 0
Near_Eastern 0
East_Eurasian 0
WHG 99.5
Oceanian 0.5
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0

Stuttgart (Neolithic)

ANE 0
South_Eurasian 0
Near_Eastern 72.19
East_Eurasian 0
WHG 27.8
Oceanian 0
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0

NE1 (Neolithic)

ANE 0
South_Eurasian 0
Near_Eastern 69.82
East_Eurasian 0
WHG 30.17
Oceanian 0
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0

BR2 (Bronze Age)

ANE 9.62
South_Eurasian 0.08
Near_Eastern 43.96
East_Eurasian 0
WHG 45.44
Oceanian 0.48
Pygmy 0.23
Sub-Saharan 0.19

Hinxton4 (Iron Age)

ANE 15.08
South_Eurasian 0.06
Near_Eastern 35.44
East_Eurasian 0.46
WHG 48.5
Oceanian 0
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0.46

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2014/12/ane-is-primary-cause-of-west-to-east.html

MJost

MJost
01-28-2015, 04:11 PM
Davidski does post an interesting trend, 'ancestry proportions for the five ancient genomes in this analysis, in chronological order. ... the rising and falling Near Eastern admixture, from the Mesolithic to Neolithic and then from the Neolithic to Bronze Age, respectively, as well as the steady rise of ANE from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age.'


Now we could see that mostly ANE was brought into Europe by the R1's, R1a from the northeast and R1b from the southern route via the Danube.

MJost

alan
01-28-2015, 04:40 PM
My conclusion in that the main path of ANE was a quick pre-beaker corded ware thrust through northern and north-central Europeas far as the Low countries then a much smaller, low visibility offshoot further west into Iberian and Italy, still in pre-beaker times. Beaker probably arose in Iberia and Remedello 2 in Italy as a result of this low visibility smaller movements of central Europeans west and south c. 2900-2750BC. IMO the movement to the isles in the beaker period must have come overwhelmingly from somewhere like coastal Low Countries which are very similar autosomally to the isles and especially in terms of ANE - in other words the beaker people of the Low Countries were probably autosomally very corded-ware like. IMO beaker movement back out of south-west Europe was probably rather limited - mainly south of France, NW Italy etc. I think ANE levels strongly suggest that. I am not a big believer in the idea that ANE has been massively reduced in Iberia since because if so why has WHG not been. All in all ANE looks like the product of corded ware and similar elements rapidly passing across northern Europe and a smaller more progressively diluted impact of the same DNA further south-west.

rms2
01-28-2015, 04:48 PM
ANE would not need to be reduced in Iberia if the incomers bearing it took a Mediterranean route there and on the way picked up admixture with EEF peoples.

The difference between Iberians and more northerly populations with similar frequencies of R1b is the relative proportion of EEF versus ANE. One way to explain it is an increase in EEF at the expense of ANE. That could have happened enroute to Iberia. Where better in Europe to acquire EEF than on an extended trip lengthwise across the Mediterranean?

alan
01-28-2015, 04:48 PM
Now we could see that mostly ANE was brought into Europe by the R1's, R1a from the northeast and R1b from the southern route via the Danube.

MJost

I remain to be convinced that R1b wasnt in corded ware or an element that was within the genesis of it and other cultures. Modern R1a patterns are the product of several phases of expansion in eastern and east-central Europe rather than a copper age situation frozen in time. Corded ware remains one of the most convincing steppe influenced group capable of spreading eastern genes well to the west with Remedello 2 being the other one which a steppe influence has been suggested for. Both are of course hybrids which have taken on considerable amount of characteristics of the earlier peoples which is something that has muddied the waters for a long time. What these cultures show is behavoural changes that look to the steppe mixed with farmer population traits rather than duplicates.

alan
01-28-2015, 04:54 PM
ANE would not need to be reduced in Iberia if the incomers bearing it took a Mediterranean route there and on the way picked up admixture with EEF peoples.

The difference between Iberians and more northerly populations with similar frequencies of R1b is the relative proportion of EEF versus ANE. One way to explain it is an increase in EEF at the expense of ANE. That could have happened enroute to Iberia, where better in Europe to acquire EEF than on an extended trip lengthwise across the Mediterranean?

Am not sure we even need to see a Med. route. There is a big drop off of ANE in many parts of France so progressive dilution over a couple of generations before arriving in Iberia and Italy is entirely possible. So the R1b groups may have remained the dominant element in terms of reproduction but their autosomal signature they ended up spreading may have changed. After all you could half the ANE is just a generation if an all-male group married entirely local woman in some areas. Perhaps that happened with the Basques and local mothers may also explain the failure of IE in that area or that of its ancestors. You could say R1b only linked to areas where nothing other than IE languages are known where R1b was also carrying ANE in high numbers. The low ANE bearing R1b elements may be the result of major out-marrying events where the passing of the language on to the children was disrupted.

alan
01-28-2015, 04:58 PM
Just a further thought but where all male R1b movements happened you would expect a loss of the female home crafts or a situation where their wives were producing approximates of central European pots based on 2nd hand descriptions from their husbands using local techniques. Perhaps that is how beaker pot shape, which seems to have an eastern inspiration, arose in Iberia.

Dubhthach
01-28-2015, 05:04 PM
I'm from Donegal, no other ancestry I'm aware of but my haplogroup suggests my male line arrived from Scotland suring the plantation or shortly before it.

I always scored higher than average in the Western European/Northern European/Atlantic type components in other calculators.

When it comes to doing plots you basically from Tory Island ;) -- memory serves me right you nearly always cluster as most westerly in irish samples (dodecad etc.) :D

-Paul

rms2
01-28-2015, 07:12 PM
Am not sure we even need to see a Med. route. There is a big drop off of ANE in many parts of France so progressive dilution over a couple of generations before arriving in Iberia and Italy is entirely possible. So the R1b groups may have remained the dominant element in terms of reproduction but their autosomal signature they ended up spreading may have changed. After all you could half the ANE is just a generation if an all-male group married entirely local woman in some areas. Perhaps that happened with the Basques and local mothers may also explain the failure of IE in that area or that of its ancestors. You could say R1b only linked to areas where nothing other than IE languages are known where R1b was also carrying ANE in high numbers. The low ANE bearing R1b elements may be the result of major out-marrying events where the passing of the language on to the children was disrupted.

Right. All you really need is a fairly large native population with a high proportion of EEF to dilute the ANE of an incoming, mostly R1b population that somehow managed to impose its y-dna to a large extent.

In the Isles, the proportion of EEF was probably substantially lower, its place held by a higher proportion of WHG, which also diluted the ANE of the incomers there, but not nearly as much.

MJost
01-28-2015, 07:48 PM
I charted the West_Eurasia_K8_full Spreadsheet's ANE percentages in this chart in order to see if there is a clear flow from larger to small from the spreadsheet at: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8pm8sVcHqceiNFJMO082kxaBF5ePr4__bAK05VQRFw/edit#gid=62882571

ANE Chart here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNMWtvM3RUNUViN28/view?usp=sharing

MJost

rossa
01-28-2015, 08:18 PM
When it comes to doing plots you basically from Tory Island ;) -- memory serves me right you nearly always cluster as most westerly in irish samples (dodecad etc.) :D

-Paul

Yeah, on Oracle I am closer to Western Scottish.
Whatever happened Dodecad?

Gray Fox
01-28-2015, 09:06 PM
70 percent British, 25 percent Southern German and five percent mixed Euro/Unknown

K7:

WHG: 61.67
ENF: 19.35
ANE: 15.21

MitchellSince1893
01-28-2015, 10:42 PM
I haven't done K8 but I used the K7 spreadsheet to find my closest matches and then looked them up on K8

For example HG0152 and HG00262 bracket my K7 scores

On K7
ID-----------ANE---------ASE-------WHG-UHG-----ENF
Me---------- 0.168900-- 0.02440---- 0.638700--- 0.1606
HG00152--- 0.168975-- 0.014027--- 0.621885-- -0.189174
HG00262--- 0.161127-- 0.024032--- 0.655642--- 0.156316

On K8
ID-----------ANE---------Near_Eastern---WHG
HG00152--- 0.154254-- 0.416477---------0.429219
HG00262--- 0.143976-- 0.393242---------0.452318

So I would surmise that my K8 scores would be something close to:
ID----------ANE---------Near_Eastern------WHG
Me--------- 0.154-------- 0.40------------ 0.44

slievenamon
01-28-2015, 11:22 PM
From cousin's K7 County Tipperary

WHG: 64.02
ENF: 15.22
ANE: 17.01

rms2
01-29-2015, 01:30 AM
I haven't done K8 but I used the K7 spreadsheet to find my closest matches and then look them up on K8

For example HG0152 and HG00262 bracket my K7 scores

On K7
ID-----------ANE---------ASE-------WHG-UHG-----ENF
Me---------- 0.168900-- 0.02440---- 0.638700--- 0.1606
HG00152--- 0.168975-- 0.014027--- 0.621885-- -0.189174
HG00262--- 0.161127-- 0.024032--- 0.655642--- 0.156316

On K8
ID-----------ANE---------Near_Eastern---WHG
HG00152--- 0.154254-- 0.416477---------0.429219
HG00262--- 0.143976-- 0.393242---------0.452318

So I would surmise that my K8 scores would be something close to:
ID----------ANE---------Near_Eastern------WHG
Me--------- 0.154-------- 0.40------------ 0.44

Can you supply links to those two spreadsheets?

MitchellSince1893
01-29-2015, 02:13 AM
Can you supply links to those two spreadsheets?

They were on another thread on anthrogenica...I'll see if I can find it.

EDIT:

Here is the post that contains the link to both http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3663-Post-your-West-Eurasia-K8-results&p=63396&viewfull=1#post63396

rms2
01-29-2015, 08:45 AM
They were on another thread on anthrogenica...I'll see if I can find it.

EDIT:

Here is the post that contains the link to both http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3663-Post-your-West-Eurasia-K8-results&p=63396&viewfull=1#post63396

Great, thanks.

I want to try what you did when I get the time (later today probably).

Jessie
01-29-2015, 09:18 AM
My conclusion in that the main path of ANE was a quick pre-beaker corded ware thrust through northern and north-central Europeas far as the Low countries then a much smaller, low visibility offshoot further west into Iberian and Italy, still in pre-beaker times. Beaker probably arose in Iberia and Remedello 2 in Italy as a result of this low visibility smaller movements of central Europeans west and south c. 2900-2750BC. IMO the movement to the isles in the beaker period must have come overwhelmingly from somewhere like coastal Low Countries which are very similar autosomally to the isles and especially in terms of ANE - in other words the beaker people of the Low Countries were probably autosomally very corded-ware like. IMO beaker movement back out of south-west Europe was probably rather limited - mainly south of France, NW Italy etc. I think ANE levels strongly suggest that. I am not a big believer in the idea that ANE has been massively reduced in Iberia since because if so why has WHG not been. All in all ANE looks like the product of corded ware and similar elements rapidly passing across northern Europe and a smaller more progressively diluted impact of the same DNA further south-west.

That makes a lot of sense to me. On Gedmatch I'm always coming up with Frisian / Dutch. On the K13 my top population is North Dutch. I used to think I must have some Dutch ancestry somewhere but what you have said appears a lot more logical.

Dubhthach
01-29-2015, 09:45 AM
I haven't really been paying much attention to autosomal (even though I have 23andme done) where are people getting this K8 analysis done?

alan
01-29-2015, 11:07 AM
Right. All you really need is a fairly large native population with a high proportion of EEF to dilute the ANE of an incoming, mostly R1b population that somehow managed to impose its y-dna to a large extent.

In the Isles, the proportion of EEF was probably substantially lower, its place held by a higher proportion of WHG, which also diluted the ANE of the incomers there, but not nearly as much.

I think it looks like the northern thrust was quick and involved woman too to some extent which all makes sense when you think of corded ware which some people think is even more confined date-wise than once thought. What is surprising somewhat is you would almost think the northern corded ware people had taken that extra step and crossed into the isles because the isles, especially the Celtic fringe, look part of a continuum across the whole of northern Europe. We know that never happened but we also know that there was a strong beaker connection between the isles and the Lower Rhine which also happened to be a corded ware area before beaker. It is tempting to suggest the beaker people who went to the isles were autosomally very similar to the Rhenish beaker groups and indeed the corded ware groups although admittedly we lack hard evidence.

Whatever happened something post-Neolithic made the isles cluster with the rest of NW Europe today and that includes the Celtic fringes with the east Germanic impact. So, even being cautious this transformation absolutely had to have happened in the bronze -including the short copper-age and Iron Age in the isles. When you look at the fairly weak Iron Age in the parts of the isles with the highest ANE then this pretty well means it had to have been a copper/bronze age thing. It would seem absurd not to link it overwhelmingly to the arrival and massive growth of R1b lines in terms of the isles as their really doesnt seem to have been any other big new player after the Neolithic.

I am getting the feeling that beaker is bloody complex. I suspect beaker originated in central European corded ware related very small offshoot reaching Iberia c. 2750BC and hybriding to create proto-beaker culture and then moving back east along the Med. to south France and the west Alps.

At that stage it further culturally hybrided with its cousins left behind c.150 years earlier who had remained in a corded ware guise but beakerised them rather than genetically replacing these stay-home central and north-central Europeans.

So we may have had an odd situation of two groups who carried the same sort of y signatures but different mtDNA and autosomal signatures meeting in south-west central Europe and creating 2 or 3 beaker or beakerised groups who carried different signatures. We already seen in crania that the classic beaker skull was dominant in the central bell beaker or beakerised group but not in the early groups in Iberia, south France and the western Alps. Other groups in between could have been a mix of both elements. However, it does seem to me that its entirely possible that there was subdivision of beaker and beakerised peoples carrying quite distinct autosomally component proportions.

I would suggest the southern group who carried proto-beaker culture from west Iberia to SE France and the western Alps was carrying a much reduced ANE proportion due to their wanderings far from north and central Europe in immediate pre-beaker and early beaker times. After all beaker pots may have been confined to western Iberia for 150 years before they even reached SE France etc - that is bound to have had an impact on autosomal DNA. Who knows. That sojourn in the far west for 150 years/5 generations would could not only have significantly modified their autosomal and mtDNA signatures while leaving their Y lines intact but it may also have had a profound impact on language. Who knows, it might even explain P312 rich non-IE speaking groups like Basques.

Its hard to imagine no linguistic impact happening to an R1b offshoot in the far west who had little prospect of marrying other than local lasses and the latter being the mothers of their children for 5 generations. In addition they entered an area where the local culture was more sophisticated and developed than anything incomers were likely used to. Whatever the language that resulted in that is likely to be the language of the early beaker phase of spread back east along the west Med. and western Alps.

So in a sense I am saying that there were several beaker or beakerised peoples which is of course something that the Sion sequence appears to report. The strong impression I have is that while the south-western group may have been culturally important in passing pottery ideas and some other proto-beaker ideas into west-central Europe and beyond, it was their beakerised cousins to the north and in central Europe who made the most impact in many places. Admittedly this is an oversimplification but I think the basic pattern may be basically correct.

As for the people who reached the Lower Rhine and the isles, they were in a position to have taken on a mix of central European and western beaker traits due to way rivers like the Rhine, Rhone etc allowed easy passage to both south and east.

Jessie
01-29-2015, 11:17 AM
I haven't really been paying much attention to autosomal (even though I have 23andme done) where are people getting this K8 analysis done?

Davidski will do yours for $25 (Australian). If you go to Eurogenes it will explain what to do but you upload your zipped 23andMe or FTDNA genetic information and send to him. I got both myself and my mother done and Davidski also did a plot for both of us as well as the two he does for the K8 analysis. He also gave me this information.

"I had a look at your genome using pairwise similarity as opposed to ancient components like ANE, WHG etc. You seem to be one of those Irish who cluster further east than expected in the context of West Eurasian diversity. For instance, on the attached pairwise IBS similarity plot you're placed among the Danes as well as Irish. In other words, on the West Eurasian genetic border between the Isles and Scandinavia. So the two analyses line up more or less. It just looks like some Irish are significantly more easterly than others."

So I thought it was well worth it in my opinion. I would also love to see what other Irish people get and if all Irish are similar to myself and my mother.

alan
01-29-2015, 11:29 AM
From cousin's K7 County Tipperary

WHG: 64.02
ENF: 15.22
ANE: 17.01

That is very high ANE. It seems from some of the results that western Ireland has levels of ANE up there with the highest averages of any northern European country.

Jessie
01-29-2015, 11:33 AM
That is very high ANE. It seems from some of the results that western Ireland has levels of ANE up there with the highest averages of any northern European country.

It would be a bit lower using the K8. My mother's ANE on the K7 is 17.17% and she is also from Tipperary.

Salkin
01-29-2015, 12:01 PM
It would be a bit lower using the K8. My mother's ANE on the K7 is 17.17% and she is also from Tipperary.

Yes, it does seem the K7 rates it higher. I get 16.19% ANE from K7, and 14-some % from K8.

alan
01-29-2015, 12:08 PM
I would certainly read the archaeological record as suggesting the isles hunter-gatherers no longer received further European inputs from the continent after 8000BC and this can be seen by that area not taking part in continental north European cultural trends in the remainder of the Mesolithic. This is why I find it hard to believe ANE reached the isles in hunter-gatherer times. The last widely shared major trend across the isles among the hunter-gatherers was for narrow non-pressure flaked microblades and that seems to have commenced before 8000BC judging by radiocarbon dates from Cramond. Britain had parallels with the Magelmose culture of Denmark etc but by the time the Kongomose culture brought pressure flaking as far west as Denmark and adjacent Britain was fast becoming an island and it missed out on this. I suspect there is a strong link between pressure flaking and ANE and therefore I see ANE as absent in the isles Mesolithic whereas I believe it was known in at least small quantities through much of the continental north-west coast in pre-Neolithic times by 6000BC

alan
01-29-2015, 01:01 PM
It does seem that there is no simple pan-Eurasian correlation between ANE and WHG. It kind of suggests to me that some ANE was in south-west Asia before the IE expansion, perhaps somehow not reaching far enough west in south-west Asia early enough to expand with the farmers.There is the archaeological signal of pressure microblades apparently arriving in Iran as the Younger Dryas ended. I have suggested a link with this technique and ANE reaching eastern and north-east Europe in the same timeframe so it would be inconsistent of me not to link the broadly contemporary arrival of the same technique in Iran with the same genetic signature.

The implication of this would be that at the end of the Younger Dryas there was a group carrying a high amount of ANE and not much WHG and that this group passed into areas like Iran without mixing heavily with WHG groups in Europe. Now, the fine tuning of this would require a very deep understanding of the distribution of human settlement at the end of the YD. The latter clearly had a major effect in a short phase of returning ice age type steppe-tundra environments to areas which had gotten used to a more Boreal-like environments. Somewhere a few years back I saw a study of radiocarbon dated sites in Europe during the YD AND that suggested a major retraction of settlement in this period across Europe but I have not been able to find it again.

The main problem with linking ANE and pressure flaked microblades in Iran is that they were found in the Zagros just after the YD which puts them in the zone where farming arose. This of course contradicts the lack of ANE found in European farmers. However, there was geographical nuance in even the zone of farming in SW Asia prior to its arrival in Europe. While the Zagros and east Anatolia had pressure flaking from an early point, it seems that the Levantine area was resistant and that even west Anatolia didnt recieve it until around 6200BC. Given that it looks increasingly like the Levant rather than NW Anatolia was of more importance in the initial farming movements into Europe this could perhaps explain a lack of ANE reaching Europe. How this plays out with the G link to European farmers I am not sure.

Finally another thing crucial to consider is R1b and indeed R1a. If they were linked to a movement of both pressure blades and ANE into areas like Iran and east Anatolia then we have to be looking at a subdivision of them around the Younger Dryas or certainly the end of that period. It would seem that the first movement of such technology into SW Asia therefore dated to around 9500BC. So the obvious conclusion of that is that R1a and b could have branched around that date into groups to the north and south of the Caspian/Caucasus sort of longitude.

So is there evidence of this. Evidence of R1a and b dividing into groups who remained hunters north of the Pontic-Caspian/north-central Asia/the Urals and groups who entered the more demographically favourable world to the south where farming was just starting to emerge. Well that is complex and depends on which version of dating one favours. Perhaps the very old branches of R1a and b we see in SW Asia - i.e. P297 negative groups in the case of R1b-are a remnant of this and ditto for the early R1a groups. These may have survived because they entered the farming zone while the barely above survival demographics of the people who remained in the hunting zone to the north would not leave early branchings surviving to today.

One idea I would like to scotch right away would be that this is the origin of the Anatolian/full PIE division. We are talking about a split going back to the moment where hunters started tentatively moving to farming. It would seem impossible to align that with linguistic evidence. If any southern ANE language had survived and not been absorbed by the ENF majority then it would have been some very deep distant cousin perhaps to IE, Uralic etc dating to a period when the shared ancestor 11500 years ago was clearly still a hunter-gatherer.

alan
01-29-2015, 01:11 PM
By the way Pressure Blade Production with a Lever
in the Early and Late Neolithic of the Near East
Ciler Altınbilek-Algül , Laurence Astruc , Didier Binder ,
and Jacques Pelegrin is useful on the spread of pressure microblades in SW Asia and can be found in PDF form online

slievenamon
01-30-2015, 02:11 AM
My Eurogenes K7 Porportions 25% Austrian 25% Hungarian 50% County Tipperary

ANE: 15.09% East Eurasian 0.23%
ASE: 2.54% West African 0.83%
WHG: 60.29% ENF: 21.02%

alan
01-30-2015, 02:18 PM
By the way Pressure Blade Production with a Lever
in the Early and Late Neolithic of the Near East
Ciler Altınbilek-Algül , Laurence Astruc , Didier Binder ,
and Jacques Pelegrin is useful on the spread of pressure microblades in SW Asia and can be found in PDF form online

Jean- if you are online, I tried to PM you about the above but your inbox is full

Dubhthach
01-30-2015, 02:33 PM
Davidski will do yours for $25 (Australian). If you go to Eurogenes it will explain what to do but you upload your zipped 23andMe or FTDNA genetic information and send to him. I got both myself and my mother done and Davidski also did a plot for both of us as well as the two he does for the K8 analysis. He also gave me this information.

"I had a look at your genome using pairwise similarity as opposed to ancient components like ANE, WHG etc. You seem to be one of those Irish who cluster further east than expected in the context of West Eurasian diversity. For instance, on the attached pairwise IBS similarity plot you're placed among the Danes as well as Irish. In other words, on the West Eurasian genetic border between the Isles and Scandinavia. So the two analyses line up more or less. It just looks like some Irish are significantly more easterly than others."

So I thought it was well worth it in my opinion. I would also love to see what other Irish people get and if all Irish are similar to myself and my mother.

Grand, just sent the $25AUS (16 euro's with exchange rate ain't bad), should be interesting as I sent him my sample back in 2011 (IE16)

-Paul

rossa
01-30-2015, 03:22 PM
Did you have to resend him your sample?

Dubhthach
01-30-2015, 03:42 PM
Nawh, unless he's shredded his hard disk at some stage in last 4 years I doubt there's been any "bit rot" going on.

Dubhthach
02-01-2015, 09:39 AM
Alright result back, appears to be K=8, here's results of non-trivial components

WHG 0.432408 = 43.2408%
Near_Eastern 0.395293 = 39.5293%
ANE 0.152801 = 15.2801%
South_Eurasian 0.019459 = 1.9459%

There's also "Lower Bound NE" result:

WHG 0.466719 = 46.6719%
Near_Eastern 0.359336 = 35.9336%
ANE 0.15136 = 15.136%
South_Eurasian 0.022543 = 2.2543%

Interesting he mentioned that Hinxton4 had South_Eurasian signature as well.

Jessie
02-01-2015, 11:59 AM
Alright result back, appears to be K=8, here's results of non-trivial components

WHG 0.432408 = 43.2408%
Near_Eastern 0.395293 = 39.5293%
ANE 0.152801 = 15.2801%
South_Eurasian 0.019459 = 1.9459%

There's also "Lower Bound NE" result:

WHG 0.466719 = 46.6719%
Near_Eastern 0.359336 = 35.9336%
ANE 0.15136 = 15.136%
South_Eurasian 0.022543 = 2.2543%

Interesting he mentioned that Hinxton4 had South_Eurasian signature as well.

Can you post your maps Dubthach? Also where in Ireland are you from? It appears Irish have quite a reasonable chunk of ANE.

Dubhthach
02-02-2015, 03:44 PM
Can you post your maps Dubthach? Also where in Ireland are you from? It appears Irish have quite a reasonable chunk of ANE.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/PaulD1.png

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/PaulD2.png

Well I'm from Galway myself, however I'm abit of a mutt. Of my 8 great grandparents 6 were from East Galway/Roscommon/South Galway/North Clare, 1 was from Belfast and 1 was "Liverpool Irish".

-Paul

Jessie
02-02-2015, 04:24 PM
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/PaulD1.png

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/PaulD2.png

Well I'm from Galway myself, however I'm abit of a mutt. Of my 8 great grandparents 6 were from East Galway/Roscommon/South Galway/North Clare, 1 was from Belfast and 1 was "Liverpool Irish".

-Paul

Interesting. Your position is quite similar to mine and my mother's. Did Davidski say anything about your result?

MJost
02-02-2015, 05:00 PM
Alright result back, appears to be K=8, here's results of non-trivial components

WHG 0.432408 = 43.2408%
Near_Eastern 0.395293 = 39.5293%
ANE 0.152801 = 15.2801%
South_Eurasian 0.019459 = 1.9459%

There's also "Lower Bound NE" result:

WHG 0.466719 = 46.6719%
Near_Eastern 0.359336 = 35.9336%
ANE 0.15136 = 15.136%
South_Eurasian 0.022543 = 2.2543%

Interesting he mentioned that Hinxton4 had South_Eurasian signature as well.
Remember this sample is from 2K ybp and may not be representative today due to some small additional replacement going later.

K8 numbers for:
(A Scandinavian pre-history WHG West European Hunter-Gatherers influence?)
http://s628.photobucket.com/user/Brodir93/media/WHGK8.png.html

Hinxton4 (Iron Age)
ANE 15.08
South_Eurasian 0.06
Near_Eastern 35.44
East_Eurasian 0.46
WHG 48.5
Oceanian 0
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0.46

MJost

Krefter
02-02-2015, 05:30 PM
Remember this sample is from 2K ybp and may not be representative today due to some small additional replacement going later.

K8 numbers for:
(A Scandinavian pre-history WHG West European Hunter-Gatherers influence?)
http://s628.photobucket.com/user/Brodir93/media/WHGK8.png.html

Hinxton4 (Iron Age)
ANE 15.08
South_Eurasian 0.06
Near_Eastern 35.44
East_Eurasian 0.46
WHG 48.5
Oceanian 0
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0.46

MJost

I'm very confused about those Iron age and medieval Brits scoring in ANE K8 like Scandinavians. I tend to think something central and or south European was brought into the British isles, after the Iron age. Rome and recent immigration are good candidates.

MJost
02-02-2015, 05:58 PM
I'm very confused about those Iron age and medieval Brits scoring in ANE K8 like Scandinavians. I tend to think something central and or south European was brought into the British isles, after the Iron age. Rome and recent immigration are good candidates.Good question. The Lazaridis study gave some indications that should be considered if the Isles had mtDNA's K, t, U5, U4, U3, and U2 and, if so, what was their admix prior to the Bronze age R1b guys came onto the scene.

'Stuttgart belongs to mtDNA haplogroup T2, typical of Neolithic Europeans9, while Loschbour
and all Motala individuals belong to haplogroups U5 and U2, typical of pre-agricultural
Europeans1,7 (SI4). Based on the ratio of reads aligning to chromosomes X and Y, Stuttgart is
female, while Loschbour and five of seven Motala individuals are male10 (SI5). Loschbour and
the four Motala males whose haplogroups we could determine all belong to Y-chromosome
haplogroup I, suggesting that this was a predominant haplogroup in pre-agricultural northern
Europeans analogous to mtDNA haplogroup U11 (SI5).'

biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552

MJost

rossa
02-02-2015, 06:32 PM
How long do the results take? I sent him my payment yesterday.

MJost
02-02-2015, 06:38 PM
He already had min so it was already on hand so it just took a few days. I am not sure how much pre processing he does.

MJost

alan
02-02-2015, 06:44 PM
I'm very confused about those Iron age and medieval Brits scoring in ANE K8 like Scandinavians. I tend to think something central and or south European was brought into the British isles, after the Iron age. Rome and recent immigration are good candidates.

Rome is the obvious one. Even immigration from Gaul or many parts of it would have dragged down ANE if modern levels were true of the Iron Age and Roman era. What is even more interesting is the Anglo-Saxon and Viking must surely have raised ANE rather than dropped it so it would seem to indicate to me that the Roman empire could have seen an even bigger drop in ANE than we see today. Rome was a huge empire with a lot of movement within it and the vast majority of it would have been in areas with lower ANE than the Celts of the isles seem to have had.

MJost
02-03-2015, 12:42 AM
I modified an old Least-squares method spreadsheet that I used in 2011 and entered the latest Ancient K8 population admixture percentages. You can add the two K8 results and follow the instructions to get you closest matching kits.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNTzBCMGpBcWg1UWM/view?usp=sharing

MJost

Jessie
02-03-2015, 03:35 AM
I'm very confused about those Iron age and medieval Brits scoring in ANE K8 like Scandinavians. I tend to think something central and or south European was brought into the British isles, after the Iron age. Rome and recent immigration are good candidates.

The ANE hasn't decreased in Ireland and West Scotland though. It appears to have decreased in southern England from the amount of the Hinxton samples.

Jessie
02-03-2015, 03:39 AM
Rome is the obvious one. Even immigration from Gaul or many parts of it would have dragged down ANE if modern levels were true of the Iron Age and Roman era. What is even more interesting is the Anglo-Saxon and Viking must surely have raised ANE rather than dropped it so it would seem to indicate to me that the Roman empire could have seen an even bigger drop in ANE than we see today. Rome was a huge empire with a lot of movement within it and the vast majority of it would have been in areas with lower ANE than the Celts of the isles seem to have had.

I wonder if the Welsh have different levels than the Irish and Scots?

Jessie
02-03-2015, 03:56 AM
How long do the results take? I sent him my payment yesterday.

He is really quick. It generally takes about 2 days so you should get your results anytime now.

Jessie
02-03-2015, 08:12 AM
Just for reference I'll add my K8 and K7 results here. The K8 results for ANE are approximately 1% lower than the K7.

K8
ANE 15.8429%
South_Eurasian 0.305%
Near_Eastern 38.4229%
WHG 45.3869%
Oceanian 0.0393%

Lower Bound NE

ANE 15.6524%
South_Eurasian 0.5765%
Near Eastern 34.6246%
WHG 48.9913%
Oceanian 0.1522%

K7
ANE 16.92%
ASE 1.02%
WHG-UHG 63.89%
East Eurasian 1.17%
East African 0.20%
ENF 16.82%

Mother

ANE 16.1975 %
South Eurasian 0.757%
Near Eastern 38.6478%
WHG 44.3603%
Oceanian 0.0857%

Lower Bound NE

ANE 16.0113%
South Eurasian 0.9684%
Near Eastern 34.9168%
WHG 47.9065%
Oceanian 0.1939%

K7
ANE 17.17%
ASE 1.75%
WHG-UHG 62.95%
East Eurasian 0.61%
East African 0.45%
ENF 17.07%

rossa
02-03-2015, 05:29 PM
My Results are as follows:

ANE 15.090%
Near_Eastern 37.622%
WHG 47.283%

Lower Bound
ANE 14.979%
Near_Eastern 33.820%
WHG 51.101%



I can't post the graphs, but in the first one I am almost in the middle of the NW European Group (about the distance of two dots down directly below the number two on the 0.32 graph label).


On graph two I am almost int he middle again (about the distance of two dots to the left of the 1.2 graph label).

randwulf
02-03-2015, 08:56 PM
I plot right on the dividing line between NW European and "French" where there are dots of both colors mixed. Davidski classed it as NE French, which is in line with my known ancestry as far as I can tell, though it results from mixed west European input. The ANE is quite a bit reduced at that spot. K8 results:

ANE 0.115338
South_Eurasian 0.005175
Near_Eastern 0.435569
East_Eurasian 0.007112
WHG 0.433233
Oceanian 1E-005
Pygmy 0.003553
Sub-Saharan 1E-005



Lower bound NE

ANE 0.113545
South_Eurasian 0.007175
Near_Eastern 0.398916
East_Eurasian 0.008296
WHG 0.46773
Oceanian 1E-005
Pygmy 0.004317
Sub-Saharan 1E-005

Pictures:

37133714

Krefter
02-03-2015, 09:43 PM
It's interesting how high in ANE and WHG Irish are scoring. They're a few percentage points above English, but I don't know about Scots. 16% ANE for Jessie and his relatives that's crazy, when English are scoring around 13-14%. In ANE K8 and Eurogenes K13-K15 Irish consistently come out being very similar to the two Celtic samples from Iron age England.

SwampThing27
02-03-2015, 10:51 PM
I'm surprised I didn't plot closer to French on the maps considering I usually plot as SW/SE English on calculators. Instead I went the opposite direction, but then not really north anymore.

ANE 14.7364%
South_Eurasian .4762%
Near_Eastern 40.412%
East_Eurasian .1941%
WHG 42.33%
Oceanian .8062%
Pygmy .5523%
Sub-Saharan .4928%

SwampThing27
02-04-2015, 01:07 AM
I'm surprised I didn't plot closer to French on the maps considering I usually plot as SW/SE English on calculators. Instead I went the opposite direction, but then not really north anymore.

ANE 14.7364%
South_Eurasian .4762%
Near_Eastern 40.412%
East_Eurasian .1941%
WHG 42.33%
Oceanian .8062%
Pygmy .5523%
Sub-Saharan .4928%

I emailed Davidski quickly to ask where he thought i plotted closest to just out of curiosity and he said i am closest to the Utah Mormons and then Hungarians.

MJost
02-04-2015, 03:43 AM
Just for reference I'll add my K8 and K7 results here. The K8 results for ANE are approximately 1% lower than the K7.

K8
ANE 15.8429%
South_Eurasian 0.305%
Near_Eastern 38.4229%
WHG 45.3869%
Oceanian 0.0393%

Your top list under 1% RMS
Jesse
West_Scottish-(HG00106)
Utah_USA-(NA12814)
Utah_USA-(NA12154)
Polish-(Polish12H)
Utah_Scandinavian-(NA12751)
MJost-US34
SW_English-(HG00255)
Rossa
Utah_USA-(NA12414)
West_Scottish-(HG00103)
Utah_USA-(NA12264)
Ukrainian_Poltava-(UkrainePol25)
Utah_USA-(NA12775)
Russian_Voronez-(RussianVoron103)
French-(HGDP00533)
Orcadian-(HGDP00802)
Utah_German-(NA07345)
Ukrainian_Belgorod-(UkrBel622)
Utah_German-(NA07022)
Ukrainian_Lviv-(UkrLv240)
Russian_Voronez-(RussianVoron105)

MJost

Jessie
02-04-2015, 03:54 AM
Here's an Oracle of my K8 results

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 West_Scottish @ 1,050536
2 Orcadian @ 1,482466
3 Utah_German @ 2,446733
4 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2,586507
5 SE_English @ 2,759955
6 SW_English @ 2,941159
7 Norwegian @ 2,971091
8 Ukrainian_Poltava @ 3,021574
9 Utah_Scandinavian @ 3,023052
10 Utah_USA @ 3,102588
11 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3,672032
12 Ukrainian_Kharkov @ 4,050441
13 Hinxton4 @ 4,102933
14 Russian_Voronez @ 4,644561
15 Polish @ 4,763066
16 Swedish @ 4,78929
17 Russian_Orel @ 5,480701
18 Belorussian @ 5,524456
19 Russian_Smolensk @ 5,659383
20 Russian_Kursk @ 5,748523
163 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 West_Scottish+West_Scottish @ 1,050536
2 Orcadian+West_Scottish @ 1,234951
3 Orcadian+Orcadian @ 1,482466
4 Norwegian+Utah_USA @ 1,569408
5 SE_English+Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1,571166
6 SW_English+Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1,57308
7 Utah_Scandinavian+Utah_USA @ 1,627334
8 Utah_German+West_Scottish @ 1,636736
9 Norwegian+Utah_German @ 1,64093
10 Orcadian+Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1,642618
11 Polish+Utah_USA @ 1,645743
12 SE_English+Ukrainian_Poltava @ 1,652583
13 Ukrainian_Lviv+West_Scottish @ 1,659498
14 Russian_Voronez+Utah_USA @ 1,66526
15 Norwegian+SE_English @ 1,668871
16 Ukrainian_Belgorod+Utah_USA @ 1,680035
17 SW_English+Ukrainian_Poltava @ 1,683771
18 Norwegian+SW_English @ 1,692037
19 Utah_German+Utah_Scandinavian @ 1,700176
20 Russian_Voronez+SW_English @ 1,715484
13366 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Hinxton4 +25% Lithuanian +25% Macedonian @ 1,101542
2 50% Hinxton4 +25% Lithuanian +25% Romanian @ 1,1308
3 50% West_Scottish +25% Orcadian +25% West_Scottish @ 1,132684
4 50% Hinxton4 +25% Bulgarian +25% Lithuanian @ 1,165954
5 50% Lithuanian +25% Greek_Thessaly +25% Hinxton4 @ 1,188026
6 50% Lithuanian +25% Hinxton4 +25% Tuscan @ 1,201914
7 50% Hinxton4 +25% Croatian +25% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1,208224
8 50% Hinxton4 +25% Bosnian +25% Polish @ 1,226542
9 50% Orcadian +25% West_Scottish +25% West_Scottish @ 1,234951
10 50% Lithuanian +25% Hinxton4 +25% Kosovar @ 1,251734
11 50% West_Scottish +25% SE_English +25% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1,257254
12 50% West_Scottish +25% Polish +25% Utah_USA @ 1,257514
13 50% West_Scottish +25% SW_English +25% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1,265783
14 50% Polish +25% French +25% West_Scottish @ 1,266213
15 50% Lithuanian +25% Polish +25% Tuscan @ 1,267198
16 50% West_Scottish +25% Ukrainian_Lviv +25% West_Scottish @ 1,281818
17 50% West_Scottish +25% Norwegian +25% Utah_USA @ 1,284216
18 50% West_Scottish +25% Norwegian +25% West_Scottish @ 1,284858
19 50% West_Scottish +25% Russian_Voronez +25% Utah_USA @ 1,28997
20 50% Hinxton4 +25% Hungarian +25% West_Scottish @ 1,291077
1115150 iterations.

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 West_Scottish+West_Scottish+We*st_Scottish+West_Sc o ttish @ 1,050536
2 Hinxton4+Lithuanian+Montenegri*n+West_Scottish @ 1,07733
3 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Lithuanian+M*acedonian @ 1,101542
4 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Lithuanian+R*omanian @ 1,1308
5 Orcadian+West_Scottish+West_Sc*ottish+West_Scottis h @ 1,132684
6 Croatian+Hinxton4+Polish+West_*Scottish @ 1,147544
7 Hinxton4+Lithuanian+Montenegri*n+Orcadian @ 1,149338
8 Hinxton4+Lithuanian+Serbian+We*st_Scottish @ 1,156496
9 Bulgarian+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Li*thuanian @ 1,165954
10 Hinxton4+Lithuanian+Macedonian*+Norwegian @ 1,17517
11 Greek_Thessaly+Hinxton4+Lithua*nian+Lithuanian @ 1,188026
12 Belorussian+Croatian+Hinxton4+*West_Scottish @ 1,198512
13 Hinxton4+Lithuanian+Lithuanian*+Tuscan @ 1,201914
14 Hinxton4+Lithuanian+Macedonian*+Utah_Scandinavian @ 1,206569
15 Croatian+Hinxton4+Russian_Smol*ensk+West_Scottish @ 1,207434
16 Croatian+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Ukr*ainian_Belgorod @ 1,208224
17 Croatian+Hinxton4+Hungarian+Li*thuanian @ 1,209269
18 Hinxton4+Lithuanian+Macedonian*+Polish @ 1,216103
19 Lithuanian+Montenegrin+Swedish*+West_Scottish @ 1,216459
20 Hinxton4+Lithuanian+Orcadian+S*erbian @ 1,217435
21 Croatian+Hinxton4+Orcadian+Pol*ish @ 1,218223
22 Bosnian+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Poli*sh @ 1,226542
23 Hinxton4+Hungarian+Polish+West*_Scottish @ 1,227376
24 Croatian+Lithuanian+Utah_USA+W*est_Scottish @ 1,231564
25 Orcadian+Orcadian+West_Scottis*h+West_Scottish @ 1,234951
26 Hinxton4+Lithuanian+Montenegri*n+Norwegian @ 1,245033
27 Hinxton4+Hungarian+Norwegian+W*est_Scottish @ 1,246971
28 Hinxton4+Lithuanian+Macedonian*+Swedish @ 1,247436
29 Hinxton4+Kosovar+Lithuanian+Li*thuanian @ 1,251734
30 Hinxton4+Lithuanian+Norwegian+*Romanian @ 1,253127
31 Croatian+Lithuanian+SE_English*+West_Scottish @ 1,253366
32 Lithuanian+Montenegrin+Orcadia*n+Polish @ 1,254782
33 Croatian+Lithuanian+SW_English*+West_Scottish @ 1,257116
34 SE_English+Ukrainian_Belgorod+*West_Scottish+West_ S cottish @ 1,257254
35 Polish+Utah_USA+West_Scottish+*West_Scottish @ 1,257514
36 Belorussian+Croatian+Hinxton4+*Orcadian @ 1,25814
37 Lithuanian+Montenegrin+Polish+*West_Scottish @ 1,260156
38 Hinxton4+Hungarian+Polish+SE_E*nglish @ 1,262707
39 SW_English+Ukrainian_Belgorod+*West_Scottish+West_ S cottish @ 1,265783
40 French+Polish+Polish+West_Scot*tish @ 1,266213
4828114 iterations.


Gaussian method.
Noise dispersion set to 0,676116

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Hinxton4 @ 3,495078
2 SE_English @ 3,511408
3 SW_English @ 3,629672
4 Orcadian @ 3,638338
5 West_Scottish @ 3,659019
6 Utah_USA @ 3,785275
7 Norwegian @ 3,924931
8 Utah_German @ 4,034308
9 Polish @ 4,078414
10 Swedish @ 4,114684
11 Utah_Scandinavian @ 4,148445
12 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4,459232
13 Hungarian @ 4,565884
14 Belorussian @ 4,573914
15 Russian_Smolensk @ 4,590099
16 Croatian @ 4,596166
17 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4,609591
18 LBA_Hungary @ 4,672761
19 Ukrainian_Poltava @ 4,703909
20 French @ 4,723538
163 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 Hinxton4+Hinxton4 @ 3,495078
2 Hinxton4+SE_English @ 3,499199
3 SE_English+SE_English @ 3,511408
4 Hinxton4+SW_English @ 3,545481
5 Orcadian+SE_English @ 3,571071
6 SE_English+SW_English @ 3,572135
7 Hinxton4+West_Scottish @ 3,576948
8 SE_English+West_Scottish @ 3,582435
9 Hinxton4+Orcadian @ 3,589831
10 Hinxton4+Utah_USA @ 3,603291
11 Orcadian+SW_English @ 3,623479
12 SW_English+SW_English @ 3,629672
13 SW_English+West_Scottish @ 3,632271
14 Orcadian+Orcadian @ 3,638338
15 Orcadian+West_Scottish @ 3,651172
16 SE_English+Utah_USA @ 3,655273
17 Polish+SE_English @ 3,656446
18 West_Scottish+West_Scottish @ 3,659019
19 Norwegian+SE_English @ 3,66115
20 Orcadian+Utah_USA @ 3,6955
13366 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Hinxton4 +25% French +25% Hinxton4 @ 3,474925
2 50% Hinxton4 +25% Hinxton4 +25% SE_English @ 3,496887
3 50% Hinxton4 +25% SE_English +25% SE_English @ 3,499199
4 50% Hinxton4 +25% Hinxton4 +25% LBA_Hungary @ 3,503084
5 50% Hinxton4 +25% Hinxton4 +25% Montenegrin @ 3,504887
6 50% SE_English +25% Hinxton4 +25% SE_English @ 3,50505
7 50% Hinxton4 +25% Hinxton4 +25% North_Italian @ 3,513846
8 50% Hinxton4 +25% Hinxton4 +25% SW_English @ 3,51693
9 50% Hinxton4 +25% SE_English +25% SW_English @ 3,52268
10 50% Hinxton4 +25% Hinxton4 +25% Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 3,522915
11 50% SE_English +25% Hinxton4 +25% SW_English @ 3,532002
12 50% Lithuanian +25% Lithuanian +25% Neolithic_Hungary @ 3,53381
13 50% Hinxton4 +25% SE_English +25% West_Scottish @ 3,536799
14 50% Lithuanian +25% Lithuanian +25% Stuttgart @ 3,537656
15 50% Hinxton4 +25% Basque_French +25% Hinxton4 @ 3,538075
16 50% Hinxton4 +25% Hinxton4 +25% West_Scottish @ 3,53822
17 50% SE_English +25% Hinxton4 +25% West_Scottish @ 3,539878
18 50% SE_English +25% Hinxton4 +25% Orcadian @ 3,540352
19 50% SE_English +25% Orcadian +25% SE_English @ 3,540389
20 50% Hinxton4 +25% Hinxton4 +25% Utah_USA @ 3,541588
1713041 iterations.

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 French+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Hinxt*on4 @ 3,474925
2 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Hin*xton4 @ 3,495078
3 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+SE_*English @ 3,496887
4 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+SE_English+S*E_English @ 3,499199
5 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+LBA*_Hungary @ 3,503084
6 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Mon*tenegrin @ 3,504887
7 Hinxton4+SE_English+SE_English*+SE_English @ 3,50505
8 SE_English+SE_English+SE_Engli*sh+SE_English @ 3,511408
9 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Nor*th_Italian @ 3,513846
10 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+SW_*English @ 3,51693
11 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+SE_English+S*W_English @ 3,52268
12 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Spa*nish_Pais_Vasco @ 3,522915
13 Hinxton4+SE_English+SE_English*+SW_English @ 3,532002
14 Lithuanian+Lithuanian+Lithuani*an+Neolithic_Hungar y @ 3,53381
15 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+SE_English+W*est_Scottish @ 3,536799
16 Lithuanian+Lithuanian+Lithuani*an+Stuttgart @ 3,537656
17 Basque_French+Hinxton4+Hinxton*4+Hinxton4 @ 3,538075
18 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Wes*t_Scottish @ 3,53822
19 Hinxton4+SE_English+SE_English*+West_Scottish @ 3,539878
20 Hinxton4+Orcadian+SE_English+S*E_English @ 3,540352
21 Orcadian+SE_English+SE_English*+SE_English @ 3,540389
22 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Uta*h_USA @ 3,541588
23 SE_English+SE_English+SE_Engli*sh+SW_English @ 3,542195
24 Croatian+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Hin*xton4 @ 3,542895
25 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Orcadian+SE_*English @ 3,543352
26 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Mac*edonian @ 3,544496
27 Polish+SE_English+SE_English+S*E_English @ 3,544607
28 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+SW_English+S*W_English @ 3,545481
29 SE_English+SE_English+SE_Engli*sh+West_Scottish @ 3,546288
30 Lithuanian+SE_English+SE_Engli*sh+SE_English @ 3,550708
31 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Orc*adian @ 3,551546
32 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Lithuanian+N*orth_Italian @ 3,552245
33 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+SE_English+U*tah_USA @ 3,552497
34 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+SW_English+W*est_Scottish @ 3,557767
35 Hinxton4+SE_English+SW_English*+SW_English @ 3,558212
36 Hinxton4+SE_English+SW_English*+West_Scottish @ 3,564203
37 Hinxton4+Hinxton4+Orcadian+SW_*English @ 3,564987
38 Hinxton4+Orcadian+SE_English+S*W_English @ 3,565332
39 French+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+SE_En*glish @ 3,565401
40 French+Hinxton4+Hinxton4+West_*Scottish @ 3,567532

Jessie
02-04-2015, 03:55 AM
Oracle of my mother's K8 results

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1,481189
2 West_Scottish @ 1,640645
3 Orcadian @ 2,175284
4 Utah_German @ 2,369302
5 Ukrainian_Poltava @ 2,846756
6 SE_English @ 2,868346
7 Utah_USA @ 2,886658
8 SW_English @ 3,020147
9 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3,493508
10 Norwegian @ 3,888816
11 Utah_Scandinavian @ 3,922624
12 Ukrainian_Kharkov @ 4,077239
13 Moldavian @ 4,961957
14 Russian_Voronez @ 5,031828
15 Hinxton4 @ 5,365756
16 Polish @ 5,505804
17 Hungarian @ 5,671863
18 Russian_Orel @ 5,764172
19 Swedish @ 5,819454
20 Russian_Kursk @ 5,895291
163 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 Hungarian+Polish @ 0,88327
2 Lithuanian+Serbian @ 0,940563
3 Belorussian+Hungarian @ 1,081984
4 Ukrainian_Lviv+West_Scottish @ 1,140146
5 Hungarian+Russian_Smolensk @ 1,179489
6 Ukrainian_Belgorod+Utah_USA @ 1,239468
7 Hinxton4+Moldavian @ 1,284615
8 Croatian+Polish_Estonian @ 1,289423
9 Orcadian+Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1,310429
10 Hungarian+Russian_Voronez @ 1,315134
11 Croatian+Russian_Smolensk @ 1,321389
12 Belorussian+Croatian @ 1,330709
13 Ukrainian_Lviv+Utah_German @ 1,35449
14 Ukrainian_Poltava+Utah_USA @ 1,419424
15 SW_English+Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1,43889
16 Moldavian+Norwegian @ 1,453705
17 Lithuanian+Montenegrin @ 1,457106
18 SE_English+Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1,460817
19 SE_English+Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1,462127
20 Hungarian+Swedish @ 1,46815
13366 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Lithuanian +25% Greek +25% Polish @ 0,672543
2 50% Lithuanian +25% Central_Greek +25% Polish @ 0,727728
3 50% Polish +25% Kosovar +25% Lithuanian @ 0,731198
4 50% Polish +25% Montenegrin +25% Polish @ 0,740179
5 50% Lithuanian +25% Belorussian +25% Greek @ 0,74373
6 50% Lithuanian +25% Greek +25% Russian_Smolensk @ 0,773626
7 50% Lithuanian +25% Croatian +25% Romanian @ 0,774824
8 50% Lithuanian +25% Greek_Thessaly +25% West_Scottish @ 0,776099
9 50% Lithuanian +25% Belorussian +25% Central_Greek @ 0,785813
10 50% Polish +25% Macedonian +25% Polish @ 0,790773
11 50% Lithuanian +25% Central_Greek +25% Russian_Smolensk @ 0,795362
12 50% Polish +25% Belorussian +25% Macedonian @ 0,795761
13 50% Lithuanian +25% Croatian +25% Macedonian @ 0,799468
14 50% Polish +25% Macedonian +25% Russian_Smolensk @ 0,801274
15 50% Lithuanian +25% Bosnian +25% Montenegrin @ 0,806176
16 50% Polish +25% Montenegrin +25% Russian_Voronez @ 0,821803
17 50% Lithuanian +25% Central_Greek +25% Swedish @ 0,824031
18 50% West_Scottish +25% Georgian_Laz +25% Motala12 @ 0,825808
19 50% Lithuanian +25% Bulgarian +25% Croatian @ 0,832082
20 50% Lithuanian +25% Greek +25% Russian_Voronez @ 0,841472
1103500 iterations.

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Greek+Lithuanian+Lithuanian+Po*lish @ 0,672543
2 Central_Greek+Lithuanian+Lithu*anian+Polish @ 0,727728
3 Kosovar+Lithuanian+Polish+Poli*sh @ 0,731198
4 Montenegrin+Polish+Polish+Poli*sh @ 0,740179
5 Belorussian+Greek+Lithuanian+L*ithuanian @ 0,74373
6 Belorussian+Kosovar+Lithuanian*+Polish @ 0,770765
7 Greek+Lithuanian+Lithuanian+Ru*ssian_Smolensk @ 0,773626
8 Croatian+Lithuanian+Lithuanian*+Romanian @ 0,774824
9 Greek_Thessaly+Lithuanian+Lith*uanian+West_Scottis h @ 0,776099
10 Belorussian+Central_Greek+Lith*uanian+Lithuanian @ 0,785813
11 Kosovar+Lithuanian+Polish+Russ*ian_Smolensk @ 0,786497
12 Lithuanian+Macedonian+Ukrainia*n_Belgorod+West_Sco t tish @ 0,788381
13 Bulgarian+Lithuanian+Polish+We*st_Scottish @ 0,789819
14 Macedonian+Polish+Polish+Polis*h @ 0,790773
15 Central_Greek+Lithuanian+Lithu*anian+Russian_Smole n sk @ 0,795362
16 Belorussian+Macedonian+Polish+*Polish @ 0,795761
17 Georgian_Laz+Motala12+SE_Engli*sh+West_Scottish @ 0,796167
18 Croatian+Lithuanian+Lithuanian*+Macedonian @ 0,799468
19 Macedonian+Polish+Polish+Russi*an_Smolensk @ 0,801274
20 Bosnian+Lithuanian+Lithuanian+*Montenegrin @ 0,806176
21 Lithuanian+Macedonian+Russian_*Voronez+West_Scotti s h @ 0,809952
22 Georgian_Laz+Motala12+SW_Engli*sh+West_Scottish @ 0,815313
23 Lithuanian+Montenegrin+Ukraini*an_Belgorod+West_Sc o ttish @ 0,817696
24 Montenegrin+Polish+Polish+Russ*ian_Voronez @ 0,821803
25 Central_Greek+Lithuanian+Lithu*anian+Swedish @ 0,824031
26 Georgian_Laz+Motala12+Utah_USA*+West_Scottish @ 0,825686
27 Georgian_Laz+Motala12+West_Sco*ttish+West_Scottish @ 0,825808
28 Georgian_Laz+Motala12+Utah_Ger*man+West_Scottish @ 0,828517
29 Bulgarian+Croatian+Lithuanian+*Lithuanian @ 0,832082
30 Georgian_Laz+Motala12+Orcadian*+West_Scottish @ 0,835861
31 Greek+Lithuanian+Lithuanian+Ru*ssian_Voronez @ 0,841472
32 Lithuanian+Polish+Romanian+Wes*t_Scottish @ 0,848118
33 Lithuanian+Macedonian+Orcadian*+Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 0,85012
34 Hinxton4+Montenegrin+Polish+Ru*ssian_Kursk @ 0,850924
35 Belorussian+Belorussian+Macedo*nian+Polish @ 0,851879
36 Croatian+Croatian+Lithuanian+U*krainian_Belgorod @ 0,856602
37 Croatian+Polish+Ukrainian_Belg*orod+West_Scottish @ 0,857812
38 Belorussian+Belorussian+Kosova*r+Lithuanian @ 0,859101
39 Kosovar+Lithuanian+Polish+Russ*ian_Voronez @ 0,862773
40 Lithuanian+Macedonian+Polish+U*krainian_Lviv @ 0,863885
4761431 iterations.


Gaussian method.
Noise dispersion set to 0,676116

Using 1 population approximation:
1 SE_English @ 2,82974
2 SW_English @ 3,017437
3 Orcadian @ 3,024202
4 West_Scottish @ 3,082576
5 Utah_USA @ 3,190251
6 Norwegian @ 3,402683
7 Hinxton4 @ 3,500537
8 Utah_German @ 3,523583
9 Polish @ 3,59759
10 Utah_Scandinavian @ 3,704633
11 Swedish @ 3,72487
12 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3,912875
13 Croatian @ 4,010933
14 Hungarian @ 4,040927
15 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4,145473
16 Serbian_Bosnia @ 4,187554
17 Belorussian @ 4,23947
18 Ukrainian_Poltava @ 4,272905
19 Russian_Smolensk @ 4,277528
20 French @ 4,439714
163 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 SE_English+SE_English @ 2,82974
2 Orcadian+SE_English @ 2,9219
3 SE_English+SW_English @ 2,927026
4 SE_English+West_Scottish @ 2,952972
5 Orcadian+SW_English @ 3,004461
6 Polish+SE_English @ 3,00782
7 SW_English+SW_English @ 3,017437
8 SE_English+Utah_USA @ 3,022683
9 Orcadian+Orcadian @ 3,024202
10 Norwegian+SE_English @ 3,031383
11 SW_English+West_Scottish @ 3,031599
12 Orcadian+West_Scottish @ 3,055517
13 Lithuanian+Montenegrin @ 3,070671
14 Lithuanian+Macedonian @ 3,071338
15 Lithuanian+Serbian_Bosnia @ 3,072352
16 Hinxton4+SE_English @ 3,077125
17 Polish+SW_English @ 3,078699
18 West_Scottish+West_Scottish @ 3,082576
19 Orcadian+Utah_USA @ 3,083482
20 Polish+Serbian_Bosnia @ 3,098405
13366 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% SE_English +25% Polish +25% SE_English @ 2,853428
2 50% Lithuanian +25% Kosovar +25% SE_English @ 2,855749
3 50% Lithuanian +25% Lithuanian +25% Stuttgart @ 2,858117
4 50% SE_English +25% Orcadian +25% SE_English @ 2,874661
5 50% SE_English +25% SE_English +25% SW_English @ 2,87932
6 50% SE_English +25% Lithuanian +25% Serbian_Bosnia @ 2,883079
7 50% Lithuanian +25% Lithuanian +25% Neolithic_Hungary @ 2,888695
8 50% SE_English +25% SE_English +25% West_Scottish @ 2,890619
9 50% SE_English +25% Polish +25% SW_English @ 2,897144
10 50% Lithuanian +25% Kosovar +25% SW_English @ 2,89892
11 50% SE_English +25% Norwegian +25% SE_English @ 2,905289
12 50% SE_English +25% Lithuanian +25% Macedonian @ 2,906415
13 50% SE_English +25% Croatian +25% Lithuanian @ 2,909441
14 50% Lithuanian +25% North_Italian +25% SE_English @ 2,9153
15 50% SE_English +25% Orcadian +25% SW_English @ 2,920289
16 50% SE_English +25% Lithuanian +25% Montenegrin @ 2,921382
17 50% Orcadian +25% SE_English +25% SE_English @ 2,9219
18 50% SE_English +25% SW_English +25% SW_English @ 2,927026
19 50% SE_English +25% SE_English +25% Utah_USA @ 2,929945
20 50% SE_English +25% Orcadian +25% Polish @ 2,9314
1682160 iterations.

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 SE_English+SE_English+SE_Engli*sh+SE_English @ 2,82974
2 Polish+SE_English+SE_English+S*E_English @ 2,853428
3 Kosovar+Lithuanian+Lithuanian+*SE_English @ 2,855749
4 Lithuanian+Lithuanian+Lithuani*an+Stuttgart @ 2,858117
5 Orcadian+SE_English+SE_English*+SE_English @ 2,874661
6 SE_English+SE_English+SE_Engli*sh+SW_English @ 2,87932
7 Lithuanian+SE_English+SE_Engli*sh+Serbian_Bosnia @ 2,883079
8 Lithuanian+Lithuanian+Lithuani*an+Neolithic_Hungar y @ 2,888695
9 SE_English+SE_English+SE_Engli*sh+West_Scottish @ 2,890619
10 Polish+SE_English+SE_English+S*W_English @ 2,897144
11 Kosovar+Lithuanian+Lithuanian+*SW_English @ 2,89892
12 Norwegian+SE_English+SE_Englis*h+SE_English @ 2,905289
13 Lithuanian+Macedonian+SE_Engli*sh+SE_English @ 2,906415
14 Croatian+Lithuanian+SE_English*+SE_English @ 2,909441
15 Lithuanian+Lithuanian+North_It*alian+SE_English @ 2,9153
16 Orcadian+SE_English+SE_English*+SW_English @ 2,920289
17 Lithuanian+Montenegrin+SE_Engl*ish+SE_English @ 2,921382
18 Orcadian+Orcadian+SE_English+S*E_English @ 2,9219
19 Lithuanian+SE_English+Serbian_*Bosnia+SW_English @ 2,926717
20 SE_English+SE_English+SW_Engli*sh+SW_English @ 2,927026
21 SE_English+SE_English+SE_Engli*sh+Utah_USA @ 2,929945
22 Orcadian+Polish+SE_English+SE_*English @ 2,9314
23 SE_English+SE_English+SW_Engli*sh+West_Scottish @ 2,935143
24 Kosovar+Lithuanian+Polish+SE_E*nglish @ 2,935406
25 Orcadian+SE_English+SE_English*+West_Scottish @ 2,938118
26 Lithuanian+Macedonian+Polish+S*E_English @ 2,938237
27 Polish+SE_English+SW_English+S*W_English @ 2,939267
28 Kosovar+Lithuanian+Lithuanian+*Orcadian @ 2,939605
29 Lithuanian+SE_English+SE_Engli*sh+SE_English @ 2,940267
30 Polish+SE_English+SE_English+S*erbian_Bosnia @ 2,94109
31 Hinxton4+SE_English+SE_English*+SE_English @ 2,941899
32 SE_English+SE_English+SE_Engli*sh+Swedish @ 2,942226
33 Polish+SE_English+SE_English+U*tah_USA @ 2,942946
34 Croatian+Polish+SE_English+SE_*English @ 2,947343
35 Lithuanian+Lithuanian+Neolithi*c_Hungary+Polish @ 2,949788
36 Lithuanian+North_Italian+Polis*h+SE_English @ 2,950331
37 Norwegian+SE_English+SE_Englis*h+SW_English @ 2,950519
38 Croatian+Lithuanian+SE_English*+SW_English @ 2,951638
39 Lithuanian+Macedonian+Orcadian*+SE_English @ 2,951891
40 Kosovar+Lithuanian+Lithuanian+*Utah_USA @ 2,952878

MJost
02-04-2015, 03:56 AM
I'm surprised I didn't plot closer to French on the maps considering I usually plot as SW/SE English on calculators. Instead I went the opposite direction, but then not really north anymore.

ANE 14.7364%
South_Eurasian .4762%
Near_Eastern 40.412%
East_Eurasian .1941%
WHG 42.33%
Oceanian .8062%
Pygmy .5523%
Sub-Saharan .4928%

Top K8 using highest and lowest ANE in each population, RMS 1.25% and lower.

SwampThing
Ukrainian_Lviv-(UkrLv240)
Utah_USA-(NA11919)
Utah_USA-(NA12264)
SE_English-(HG00152)
French-(HGDP00533)
Ukrainian_Poltava-(UkrainePol25)
SW_English-(HG00255)
Utah_USA-(NA12814)
Utah_USA-(NA12154)
Utah_USA-(NA12775)
Polish-(Polish12H)
Jesse
Utah_Scandinavian-(NA12751)
MJost-US34

MJost

Krefter
02-04-2015, 04:29 AM
MJost,can you do the RMS thing for me? Thanks in advance.

SwampThing27
02-04-2015, 04:52 AM
Top K8 using highest and lowest ANE in each population, RMS 1.25% and lower.

SwampThing
Ukrainian_Lviv-(UkrLv240)
Utah_USA-(NA11919)
Utah_USA-(NA12264)
SE_English-(HG00152)
French-(HGDP00533)
Ukrainian_Poltava-(UkrainePol25)
SW_English-(HG00255)
Utah_USA-(NA12814)
Utah_USA-(NA12154)
Utah_USA-(NA12775)
Polish-(Polish12H)
Jesse
Utah_Scandinavian-(NA12751)
MJost-US34

MJost

Interesting, thanks. Ukranian Lviv. Ill have to look into that!

Jessie
02-04-2015, 05:30 AM
Top K8 using highest and lowest ANE in each population, RMS 1.25% and lower.

SwampThing
Ukrainian_Lviv-(UkrLv240)
Utah_USA-(NA11919)
Utah_USA-(NA12264)
SE_English-(HG00152)
French-(HGDP00533)
Ukrainian_Poltava-(UkrainePol25)
SW_English-(HG00255)
Utah_USA-(NA12814)
Utah_USA-(NA12154)
Utah_USA-(NA12775)
Polish-(Polish12H)
Jesse
Utah_Scandinavian-(NA12751)
MJost-US34

MJost

Yes thanks for this. I always get some Scandinavian pull in my results. I'm wondering if this is common in Irish people? Anyone have any insights on this. I suppose there isn't enough Irish results to make any meaningful conclusions. I'm guessing it is something ancient.

MJost
02-04-2015, 04:57 PM
MJost,can you do the RMS thing for me? Thanks in advance.
Your top matches with up to 1.5% RMS from the list of highest and lowest ANE of each population. I used your numbers at the bottom.

Krefter
Hungarian-(hungary10)
Serbian_Bosnia-(Serbian_B-H11_GSM1424666)
Utah_USA-(NA12282)
Hungarian-(hungary4)
SwampThing
SE_English-(HG00152)
Utah_USA-(NA11919)
Macedonian-(Macedonian3_GSM1424622)
Ukrainian_Lviv-(UkrLv240)
Serbian-(Serbian_Serbia11_GSM1424672)
Bosnian-(Bosnian_3_GSM1424659)


ANE South_Eurasian Near_Eastern East_Eurasian WHG Oceanian Pygmy Sub-Saharan
0.128226 0.005797 0.431795 0.007593 0.402126 0.011083 0.003864 0.009516
12.82% 0.58% 43.18% 0.76% 40.21% 1.11% 0.39% 0.95%

MJost

SwampThing27
02-04-2015, 05:20 PM
Yes thanks for this. I always get some Scandinavian pull in my results. I'm wondering if this is common in Irish people? Anyone have any insights on this. I suppose there isn't enough Irish results to make any meaningful conclusions. I'm guessing it is something ancient.

It probably has to do with your high ANE. Davidski said even I have "robust" ANE for Western European and mine is only 14.7%. Yours is 1.1% higher than mine, so it pulls you North East on the map. I Keep wondering if higher ANE correlates at all with higher Gedrosia/Baloch/South Central Indian/etc. that British seem to get on other calculators, but then wouldn't Scandinavians also get those high Central Asian numbers since their ANE is even higher?

I am surprised my ANE is as high as it is mainly because my WHG doesn't really seem to trend up with it like a lot of examples.

Jessie
02-05-2015, 11:35 AM
It probably has to do with your high ANE. Davidski said even I have "robust" ANE for Western European and mine is only 14.7%. Yours is 1.1% higher than mine, so it pulls you North East on the map. I Keep wondering if higher ANE correlates at all with higher Gedrosia/Baloch/South Central Indian/etc. that British seem to get on other calculators, but then wouldn't Scandinavians also get those high Central Asian numbers since their ANE is even higher?

I am surprised my ANE is as high as it is mainly because my WHG doesn't really seem to trend up with it like a lot of examples.

Yes there is high ANE but Davidski did an IBS plot which wasn't related to high ANE. This is his quote "I had a look at your genome using pairwise similarity as opposed to ancient components like ANE, WHG etc. You seem to be one of those Irish who cluster further east than expected in the context of West Eurasian diversity. For instance, on the attached pairwise IBS similarity plot you're placed among the Danes as well as Irish. In other words, on the West Eurasian genetic border between the Isles and Scandinavia. So the two analyses line up more or less. It just looks like some Irish are significantly more easterly than others."

I suppose logically it is due to similarity because of population closeness. There is most likely no way to know if it is due to Viking incursions or something more ancient. I suppose there is really no way to know unless there is a proper genetic study on the Irish population. What would be great would be to see other Irish people's results.

rms2
02-05-2015, 04:45 PM
This is just my own personal opinion, but I doubt there was all that much Viking genetic input in Ireland, unless Vikings had mostly daughters or their y-dna lines just didn't survive all that well. There was some Viking input, yes, but not all that much: not enough drive up ANE significantly.

On the other hand, Ireland retained the more archaic Q-Celtic branch of Celtic speech and also preserved some other archaic Indo-European traits. I think that may be an indication that Ireland got a healthy dose of IE input that was not diluted much by subsequent arrivals. Ireland also escaped the Mediterranean input provided by the Romans.

rossa
02-05-2015, 04:53 PM
Given that many large towns were founded by Vikings it's hard to think they didn't have some impact. Maybe it was an elite type take over and they intermarried with the natives, I'd also say being a Viking was a bit of a high risk "occupation".

Dubhthach
02-05-2015, 05:02 PM
Generally there was a fair bit of intermarriage, particulary between the elite groups. Thence several "norse" personal names became common among Gaelic nobility as well. This of course causes confusion today as people often translate an irish surname literally and go "oh this means ye really a viking" (Doyle for example probably means "gandson of man called Dubhghall" and not "grandson of "dainish viking" (dubhghall = black foreigner eg. a dane))

Dubhthach
02-05-2015, 05:04 PM
To give an example (Taken from a post of mine on another site)



U914.3

Niall son of Aed made an expedition into Dál Araidi in the month of June. Loingsech grandson of Lethlabar, king of Dál Araidi, came upon him at Fregabal and was defeated, and left behind on his retreat Flathruae grandson of Lethlabar, his kinsman. Aed son of Eochucán, king of the Province, and Loingsech, king of Dál Araidi, met them again at Carn Éirenn and were defeated. Cerrán son of Colman, chief of Cenél Maelchi, and the son of Allacán son of Laíchthechán, and others, were left behind. Aed, however, returning from the flight with a very few, and fiercely resisting during the flight, wiped out some of Niall's soldiers. His son Dubgall was wounded and escaped.

U925.1

Dubgall son of Aed, king of Ulaid, was killed by his own people.

U980.5

Dubgall son of Donnchad, heir designate of Ailech, was killed by his own kinsman, i.e. Muiredach son of Flann. Muiredach son of Flann was beheaded by his own sept before a full month had passed.

U994.2

The son of Dubgall son of Donnchad, i.e. Aed, heir designate of Ailech, was killed.

U1054.3

Dubgall ua hAedacáin, king of Uí Nialláin, was killed by ua Flaithéin.

U1096.4

The son of Dubgall ua Maelchothaid was killed by ua Inneirghe.

alan
02-05-2015, 09:25 PM
It's interesting how high in ANE and WHG Irish are scoring. They're a few percentage points above English, but I don't know about Scots. 16% ANE for Jessie and his relatives that's crazy, when English are scoring around 13-14%. In ANE K8 and Eurogenes K13-K15 Irish consistently come out being very similar to the two Celtic samples from Iron age England.

Well yet again, the people who studied modern skulls up to about 1950 and did racial classifications often said the large Irish skulls have no match in the Neolithic farmers and suggested a large hunter input 'reemerged'. They tended to say the closest matches for Irish skulls were in the fringes of the continental North and Baltic Seas. So, perhaps they were right in that the Irish one way or another came to have high levels of WHG and indeed ANE - a trend you could say is what sets maritime northern Europe apart - all the way from Ireland to the Baltic States. More of those ultimately reduces the ENF component which in itself includes some WHG too. One way or another most northern Europeans seem to have over time accumulated a majority of their genes from pre-farming times so the old head measurers and physical anthropologists - the better ones from the mid 20th century - seem to have been right.

alan
02-05-2015, 09:43 PM
Well one thing that Hooton said about the Irish is he thought in terms of skulls and other aspects that Ireland had a bigger Mesolithic 'reemergence' in the west. It would be interesting the get autosomal DNA from hyper-peripheral groups like the still Gaelic speaking families in the west of Ireland and islands who have pretty well unbroken local ancestry in those areas since the Medieval era. Of course the same is true of Scotland although it is more confused by varying degrees of Norwegian input in the Hebrides. Unfortunately the largest unbroken Gaelic speaking communities in the Hebrides now, by ironic twist of history, are in the northern part of the Hebrides where Norse input was greatest. So Ireland is probably a better bet in this regard.

Jessie
02-06-2015, 03:13 AM
I'm placed where the + is (I've deleted my name). This is done on pairwise IBS similarity and not on ANE.

http://i59.tinypic.com/j91nr5.jpg

Possibly just some similarity and shared genes in the populations due to something more ancient than Vikings.

alan
02-06-2015, 08:17 AM
I'm placed where the + is (I've deleted my name). This is done on pairwise IBS similarity and not on ANE.

http://i59.tinypic.com/j91nr5.jpg

Possibly just some similarity and shared genes in the populations due to something more ancient than Vikings.

One thing all northern Europe shares is a long delayed arrival of farming - not much before 4000BC at best and significant later in places. That basically is the pattern from the English channel to the Baltic and beyond. Many other area areas of Europe had 1500-2000 years head start in farming compared to the north. Another thing that may be fooling us is not everyone was buried in the farmers tombs. In many sites we know burial was a selective subset of the community and on top of that in most areas Mesolithic burials are very rare indeed - almost absent. Indeed easily dateable sites as opposed to flint scatters are rare too so I personally dont think we have the entire story on how long hunters overlapped with farmers. Genetics seem to be indicating that initial exclusion between farmers and hunter was after a time followed by mixing all across Europe. In a place like Ireland for example there is evidence of significant change and dropping of the preconceived farmer way of life template after just a couple of centuries and I suspect that may have created a scenario where initial mutual exclusion between the farmers and hunters could also have broken down.

Dubhthach
02-06-2015, 09:44 AM
I'd imagine as well given the delay with arrival of farming, that the first farmers arriving into Ireland was already fairly admixed compared to their predecessors arriving into say France (eg. higher WHG level's etc.)

alan
02-06-2015, 11:34 AM
I'd imagine as well given the delay with arrival of farming, that the first farmers arriving into Ireland was already fairly admixed compared to their predecessors arriving into say France (eg. higher WHG level's etc.)

Yeah I think its likely but there is a huge lack of finer grained geographical-chronological coverage in the ancient DNA c 4500-3500BC that would cover the immediate trail of the ancestors of the first Irish farmers and how they mixed with the hunters both in Ireland and in places like northern France and Britain in the immediate centuries before arrival. The most cutting edge re-analysis of radiocarbon dating has restored the probability that there was a south-east to north-west cline in the spread of arrival of the farmers through the isles, albeit that there was probably only two centuries at most of a difference from arrival in SE England and reaching all corners.

rms2
02-06-2015, 01:07 PM
Generally there was a fair bit of intermarriage, particulary between the elite groups. Thence several "norse" personal names became common among Gaelic nobility as well. This of course causes confusion today as people often translate an irish surname literally and go "oh this means ye really a viking" (Doyle for example probably means "gandson of man called Dubhghall" and not "grandson of "dainish viking" (dubhghall = black foreigner eg. a dane))

Judging by y-haplogroup frequencies, however, there could not have been all that much Viking genetic input in Ireland. That's why I said that, unless the Vikings mostly had daughters, there isn't any evidence of much Viking genetic input. Some input, yes. A lot? No, certainly not enough to drive ANE up much at all.

That's why I think Irish ANE predates the Vikings and has a different source, IMHO, the Beaker Folk.

Jessie
02-06-2015, 01:21 PM
Judging by y-haplogroup frequencies, however, there could not have been all that much Viking genetic input in Ireland. That's why I said that, unless the Vikings mostly had daughters, there isn't any evidence of much Viking genetic input. Some input, yes. A lot? No, certainly not enough to drive ANE up much at all.

That's why I think Irish ANE predates the Vikings and has a different source, IMHO, the Beaker Folk.

Yes there is too much ANE in Ireland to be from Vikings. Quite high ANE appears to be across the whole population. If from the Beaker groups they must have had a lot of ANE and had quite Northern genetics.

Dubhthach
02-06-2015, 02:43 PM
Judging by y-haplogroup frequencies, however, there could not have been all that much Viking genetic input in Ireland. That's why I said that, unless the Vikings mostly had daughters, there isn't any evidence of much Viking genetic input. Some input, yes. A lot? No, certainly not enough to drive ANE up much at all.

That's why I think Irish ANE predates the Vikings and has a different source, IMHO, the Beaker Folk.

I agree, my point though was more around fact that some people call certain surnames in Ireland as "Viking" because they contain "norse elements". The prime example been (O) Doyle/McDowell/McDougal which all contain term Dubhghall (literally black foreigner -- meaning: "danish viking") in reality more then likely people bearing this surnames have a Y-Lineage that predates Viking involvement in Ireland (they just happened to have a male ancestor called "Dubhghall" eg. Dougal in english). Another one been McManus, even though it's case of a personal name associated with Vikings been adapted by native Irish elite.

For example we have a case of a Sitriucc Ua Gairmledhaigh been murded by Maghnus Mac Duinnsleibhe in 1195, both have norse personal names, but belong to native dynastical groupings.

I would imagine when it comes to Y lineages you possibly looking at some R1a and I1 been linked to Vikings but on grand scheme of themes it's small overall I'd imagine.

Hando
02-06-2015, 03:59 PM
Well yet again, the people who studied modern skulls up to about 1950 and did racial classifications often said the large Irish skulls have no match in the Neolithic farmers and suggested a large hunter input 'reemerged'. They tended to say the closest matches for Irish skulls were in the fringes of the continental North and Baltic Seas. So, perhaps they were right in that the Irish one way or another came to have high levels of WHG and indeed ANE - a trend you could say is what sets maritime northern Europe apart - all the way from Ireland to the Baltic States. More of those ultimately reduces the ENF component which in itself includes some WHG too. One way or another most northern Europeans seem to have over time accumulated a majority of their genes from pre-farming times so the old head measurers and physical anthropologists - the better ones from the mid 20th century - seem to have been right.
If such is the case (ie that maritime northern Europeans such as the Irish and continental Northerners) have similarly large skulls, why do northern Germans (ie Hamburg, Lower Saxony) have smaller skulls than the Irish? The Irish in fact refer to Northern Germans as blockheads.

rms2
02-06-2015, 04:50 PM
Yes there is too much ANE in Ireland to be from Vikings. Quite high ANE appears to be across the whole population. If from the Beaker groups they must have had a lot of ANE and had quite Northern genetics.

I think the Bell Beaker people probably did have high ANE, but I would call that eastern rather than northern.

rms2
02-06-2015, 04:53 PM
If such is the case (ie that maritime northern Europeans such as the Irish and continental Northerners) have similarly large skulls, why do northern Germans (ie Hamburg, Lower Saxony) have smaller skulls than the Irish? The Irish in fact refer to Northern Germans as blockheads.

Years ago I used to work in a machine shop for a German guy. I thought of him as a blockhead, not because his head was big, but because there wasn't much in it.