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View Full Version : Distant Dutch "Frisian" ancestry?



BalkanKiwi
02-01-2015, 07:16 AM
Hi all,

This is a question I have been thinking about since I started using Gedmatch awhile a go. On most of the calculators I get Dutch or a type of German appearing. I don't know whether this is because the calculator is just finding a middle point between my own ancestry or if there is more truth to it. My known ancestry is English, Croatian, Polish, Welsh, Irish and Maori. I do have some ancestors who were from south-east England. I know Frisian can also mean German however on my MDLP K23b, I get Dutch and Frisian in my Oracles. I have been told in the past the Dutch could represent Belgae. Any thoughts would be great :)

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 German-Volga @ 3.277798
2 South_German @ 4.020086
3 Dutch @ 4.370359
4 Belgian @ 5.662082
5 Frisian @ 5.721272
6 Irish @ 6.471714
7 English @ 6.611763
8 Austrian @ 7.086512
9 North_German @ 7.705863
10 North_European @ 7.717642
11 Dane @ 8.460835
12 English_Kent_GBR @ 8.958603
13 Norwegian_East @ 9.030949
14 German_East @ 9.284139
15 CEU @ 9.539107
16 Serb_Serbia @ 9.638930
17 English_Cornwall_GBR @ 9.687665
18 Swede @ 10.019649
19 British @ 10.212126
20 Welsh @ 10.303917

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR +50% Serb_Serbia @ 2.370529


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch +25% Frisian +25% Montenegrian @ 2.053689


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Bulgarian + Dutch + Dutch + Frisian @ 1.824983
2 Dutch + German-Volga + Irish + Serb_Serbia @ 1.826487
3 Dutch + Frisian + German-Volga + Serb_Serbia @ 1.883198
4 Bulgarian + Dutch + Dutch + North_European @ 1.926490
5 Belgian + Bulgarian + Dutch + Dutch @ 1.950422
6 Bulgarian + Dutch + Dutch + Irish @ 1.953127
7 Bulgarian + Dane + Frisian + Irish @ 1.977519
8 Bulgarian + Dutch + Dutch + English @ 1.981946
9 Bulgarian + Dutch + Frisian + Norwegian_East @ 1.995352
10 Dutch + English + German-Volga + Serb_Serbia @ 1.999415
11 Bulgarian + Dane + Frisian + Frisian @ 2.000729
12 Dutch + German-Volga + North_European + Serb_Serbia @ 2.028015
13 Dutch + Dutch + Frisian + Montenegrian @ 2.053689
14 Dutch + Dutch + Irish + Montenegrian @ 2.062840
15 Bulgarian + Dutch + Dutch + English_Kent_GBR @ 2.080451
16 Bulgarian + Dutch + Irish + Norwegian_East @ 2.088581
17 Bosnian + Frisian + German-Volga + Irish @ 2.093210
18 Bulgarian + Dutch + Frisian + Frisian @ 2.097251
19 Bulgarian + Frisian + German-Volga + Norwegian_East @ 2.100228
20 Bosnian + German-Volga + Irish + Irish @ 2.102215

randwulf
02-01-2015, 07:32 PM
I am not an expert, but I think it may be the "midpoint" idea. We have been discussing related topics on another thread or two. I have mixed European ancestry, but not too mixed. Based on ideas from some others here, I plotted my ancestors at the g-g-g grandparent level (32 ancestors) on a map and used www.geomidpoint.com to calculate the geographic midpoint of the 32 locations. Then, plotted the midpoint of the best four-population results from several calculators and they do land in the vicinity of what seems to be the right geography. Before this, some of the results didn't seem to make too much sense, since I would almost always get Spain/Iberia and Scandinavia and often something more eastern in Europe (like Ukraine or Russia). You can see from my attached map below that I don't have ancestors in those places, at least not a lot (maybe distant unknowns, etc.) I had thought for sometime that some minority ancestry may be influencing things too (I am always around 2% East Asian mix plus some really South/Southwest European characteristics), and maybe they are, but the midpoint exercise did make a reasonable explanation without resorting to the minority ancestry. I, however, don't really know how these calculators work. Others may be able to provide more light on that.

My ancestry:

3693

You may be interested in this thread if you haven't read through it:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3653-Best-or-most-accurate-Gedmatch-Admixture

Edit: I should add that Davidski set my genetic point with the K8 test at NE France, which is in about the same vicinity as just about all the other calculators.

CelticGerman
02-01-2015, 08:30 PM
MDLP K23b gives me a lot of Frisian, although my known ancestry is not specifically Frisian. There is only a minor group of ancestors from North Frisia. However, I have a lot of North German ancestry. Many of them in Mecklenburg, but this region was settled by many people from the west in 13th/14th century, including (old-)Saxons from Westfalia and Holstein, as well as Frisians, Dutch, Flemings. The Frisians were heavily mixed with Saxons by the way. I tried the midpoint-tool as well. I noticed my midpoint southeast of Hamburg is nearly the same with 32 (6th generation) as with all ancestors taken into account and weighted by percentages. Davidski (Eurogenes) recently calculated my genetic midpoint with a position in the Northsea. If David is right, and I have a lot of confidence he is, some unknown ancestry is pulling my genetic midpoint to the British Isles. I don't know the role of Frisians in this context. All these Northwestern European people are very close I think.

I add my 32 ancestors map and the overall ancestry map.

36963697

Jessie
02-02-2015, 04:21 AM
My family and I get a lot of North Dutch despite all being Irish so I don't take these calculators too literally. I get North Dutch as my top population on K13. Here is my brother's K23b for comparison. I think unless people have a papertrail that these calculators are just showing approximations. North Dutch appear to be quite similar to Irish (which doesn't really make any sense) but that's what these calculators show. Frisian would be similar to Anglo-Saxon. My guess in my own case is not that I have Frisian or Dutch ancestry just that this population must have some similarity to the Irish. I don't know what other people's thoughts on this are or what conclusions they have come to looking at their results.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 37.62
2 European_Early_Farmers 26.60
3 Caucasian 21.61
4 South_Central_Asian 7.29
5 Ancestral_Altaic 5.26


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Irish @ 2.261916
2 Frisian @ 2.505198
3 Dutch @ 2.778208
4 English @ 3.307590
5 Belgian @ 3.617860
6 North_European @ 4.158943
7 South_German @ 5.308599
8 CEU @ 5.539104
9 English_Kent_GBR @ 5.839112
10 German-Volga @ 5.857182
11 British @ 6.159924
12 English_Cornwall_GBR @ 6.256845
13 Norwegian_East @ 6.289495
14 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR @ 6.353488
15 Welsh @ 6.669581
16 Icelandic @ 6.953556
17 Norwegian_West @ 7.155996
18 Dane @ 7.353782
19 North_German @ 7.431414
20 Orcadian @ 7.481358

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch +50% Irish @ 0.593731


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch +25% Irish +25% Irish @ 0.593731


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Dutch + Dutch + Irish + Irish @ 0.593731
2 Dutch + Dutch + Frisian + Irish @ 0.969406
3 Dutch + Frisian + Irish + Irish @ 1.056763
4 Dutch + Irish + Irish + Irish @ 1.131301
5 Dutch + Dutch + English + Irish @ 1.215240
6 Dane + Irish + Irish + Irish @ 1.288896
7 Dutch + Frisian + Frisian + Irish @ 1.303067
8 Dutch + Dutch + English_Cornwall_GBR + Irish @ 1.325116
9 Belgian + Dutch + Irish + Irish @ 1.345949
10 CEU + Dutch + Dutch + Irish @ 1.350276
11 Irish + Irish + Irish + Swede_Saami @ 1.362659
12 Dane + Frisian + Irish + Irish @ 1.370775
13 Dutch + English + Frisian + Irish @ 1.385557
14 British + Dutch + Dutch + Irish @ 1.389883
15 Dutch + English + Irish + Irish @ 1.392081
16 English_Cornwall_GBR + Irish + Irish + Swede_Saami @ 1.394454
17 Belgian + Dutch + Dutch + Irish @ 1.406531
18 Dutch + Dutch + English_Kent_GBR + Irish @ 1.416055
19 Irish + Irish + Irish + North_German @ 1.420758
20 Dutch + Dutch + Irish + North_European @ 1.438734

BalkanKiwi
02-02-2015, 08:19 AM
My family and I get a lot of North Dutch despite all being Irish so I don't take these calculators too literally. I get North Dutch as my top population on K13. Here is my brother's K23b for comparison. I think unless people have a papertrail that these calculators are just showing approximations. North Dutch appear to be quite similar to Irish (which doesn't really make any sense) but that's what these calculators show. Frisian would be similar to Anglo-Saxon. My guess in my own case is not that I have Frisian or Dutch ancestry just that this population must have some similarity to the Irish. I don't know what other people's thoughts on this are or what conclusions they have come to looking at their results.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 37.62
2 European_Early_Farmers 26.60
3 Caucasian 21.61
4 South_Central_Asian 7.29
5 Ancestral_Altaic 5.26


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Irish @ 2.261916
2 Frisian @ 2.505198
3 Dutch @ 2.778208
4 English @ 3.307590
5 Belgian @ 3.617860
6 North_European @ 4.158943
7 South_German @ 5.308599
8 CEU @ 5.539104
9 English_Kent_GBR @ 5.839112
10 German-Volga @ 5.857182
11 British @ 6.159924
12 English_Cornwall_GBR @ 6.256845
13 Norwegian_East @ 6.289495
14 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR @ 6.353488
15 Welsh @ 6.669581
16 Icelandic @ 6.953556
17 Norwegian_West @ 7.155996
18 Dane @ 7.353782
19 North_German @ 7.431414
20 Orcadian @ 7.481358

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch +50% Irish @ 0.593731


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch +25% Irish +25% Irish @ 0.593731


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Dutch + Dutch + Irish + Irish @ 0.593731
2 Dutch + Dutch + Frisian + Irish @ 0.969406
3 Dutch + Frisian + Irish + Irish @ 1.056763
4 Dutch + Irish + Irish + Irish @ 1.131301
5 Dutch + Dutch + English + Irish @ 1.215240
6 Dane + Irish + Irish + Irish @ 1.288896
7 Dutch + Frisian + Frisian + Irish @ 1.303067
8 Dutch + Dutch + English_Cornwall_GBR + Irish @ 1.325116
9 Belgian + Dutch + Irish + Irish @ 1.345949
10 CEU + Dutch + Dutch + Irish @ 1.350276
11 Irish + Irish + Irish + Swede_Saami @ 1.362659
12 Dane + Frisian + Irish + Irish @ 1.370775
13 Dutch + English + Frisian + Irish @ 1.385557
14 British + Dutch + Dutch + Irish @ 1.389883
15 Dutch + English + Irish + Irish @ 1.392081
16 English_Cornwall_GBR + Irish + Irish + Swede_Saami @ 1.394454
17 Belgian + Dutch + Dutch + Irish @ 1.406531
18 Dutch + Dutch + English_Kent_GBR + Irish @ 1.416055
19 Irish + Irish + Irish + North_German @ 1.420758
20 Dutch + Dutch + Irish + North_European @ 1.438734

That's quite a lot of Dutch isn't it. My history isn't that good. Did Ireland have many Dutch type migrations to the area? I think mine is simply the midpoint between my Western European and Eastern European/Southern European. When Davidski did my West Eurasia K8 I asked him a few more questions for his opinion on my ancestry and he said its mostly North-western European with minor Balkan ancestry which is what I am on paper. I re-looked at the calculators and found the EUtest and Jtest to reflect this incredibly well. I had really overlooked these tests because they aren't mentioned too often. NL is around but is not too prominent and because of how the EUtest/Jtest displays my English/Croatian I'm inclined to believe I don't have Dutch ancestry, which would be very hard to prove on paper anyway.

My EUtest Oracle results:


Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 West_&_Central_German @ 3.835824
2 NL @ 5.053637
3 English @ 6.744933
4 Cornish @ 6.914036
5 AT @ 8.416594
6 Orcadian @ 8.855638
7 DK @ 9.145692
8 FR @ 9.434384
9 IE @ 9.768493
10 Scottish @ 10.917755
11 NO @ 11.299001
12 South_&_Central_Swedish @ 11.665000
13 North_Swedish @ 14.462786
14 HU @ 15.112868
15 Serbian @ 16.565939
16 PT @ 17.155535
17 ES @ 17.970543
18 North_Italian @ 19.877405
19 RO @ 19.940292
20 South_Finnish @ 22.602533

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% AT +50% English @ 3.095479


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% English +25% English +25% RO @ 1.919067


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Cornish + English + English + RO @ 1.860949
2 English + English + English + RO @ 1.919067
3 Cornish + English + English + Serbian @ 2.039442
4 Cornish + Cornish + English + Serbian @ 2.051604
5 North_Swedish + Scottish + Tuscan + West_&_Central_German @ 2.115382
6 NL + North_Swedish + Scottish + Tuscan @ 2.119254
7 Cornish + English + NL + Serbian @ 2.182814
8 Cornish + English + Serbian + West_&_Central_German @ 2.201705
9 Cornish + English + NL + RO @ 2.223539
10 English + English + NL + RO @ 2.232720
11 Cornish + Cornish + NL + Serbian @ 2.241726
12 DK + FR + Scottish + Serbian @ 2.242059
13 English + English + Orcadian + RO @ 2.242978
14 Cornish + DK + English + RO @ 2.252095
15 Cornish + Cornish + Serbian + West_&_Central_German @ 2.252128
16 English + North_Swedish + Scottish + Tuscan @ 2.265253
17 English + FR + Scottish + Serbian @ 2.302127
18 Cornish + Cornish + English + RO @ 2.316765
19 Cornish + North_Swedish + Orcadian + Tuscan @ 2.321048
20 NL + North_Swedish + Orcadian + Tuscan @ 2.325165

Done.

Elapsed time 0.0675 seconds.

Jessie
02-02-2015, 11:51 AM
I don't think there was any significant Dutch migration to Ireland. I did the K8 as well and Davidski said that "I had a look at your genome using pairwise similarity as opposed to ancient components like ANE, WHG etc. You seem to be one of those Irish who cluster further east than expected in the context of West Eurasian diversity. For instance, on the attached pairwise IBS similarity plot you're placed among the Danes as well as Irish. In other words, on the West Eurasian genetic border between the Isles and Scandinavia. So the two analyses line up more or less. It just looks like some Irish are significantly more easterly than others."

So for whatever reason I pull a bit more east on these calculators. I really would like to see more Irish results and what other Irish people get to be able to see if it is common. So if there are any other people on here with full Irish ancestry it would be really helpful to post some of your gedmatch results. Of course I'm interested in other people's results as well.

BalkanKiwi
02-03-2015, 08:06 AM
I don't think there was any significant Dutch migration to Ireland. I did the K8 as well and Davidski said that "I had a look at your genome using pairwise similarity as opposed to ancient components like ANE, WHG etc. You seem to be one of those Irish who cluster further east than expected in the context of West Eurasian diversity. For instance, on the attached pairwise IBS similarity plot you're placed among the Danes as well as Irish. In other words, on the West Eurasian genetic border between the Isles and Scandinavia. So the two analyses line up more or less. It just looks like some Irish are significantly more easterly than others."

So for whatever reason I pull a bit more east on these calculators. I really would like to see more Irish results and what other Irish people get to be able to see if it is common. So if there are any other people on here with full Irish ancestry it would be really helpful to post some of your gedmatch results. Of course I'm interested in other people's results as well.

That's interesting. Possible Scandinavian ancestry? Its interesting he didn't find any Dutch/Frisian to comment on so I assume he doesn't think its proper.

Jessie
02-03-2015, 08:27 AM
That's interesting. Possible Scandinavian ancestry? Its interesting he didn't find any Dutch/Frisian to comment on so I assume he doesn't think its proper.

jtoml4 - I've got a feeling that on these calculators it's the mixed mode that is important. If you look on a map the centre distance that could be where you possibly plot. I'm sure there are people more knowledgeable on this subject than me but that's what I'm guessing. North Dutch looks to me half way between the British Isles and Scandinavia and that's possibly why I get that on the K13.

It would be great if someone else chimes in with their ideas?

Jessie
02-04-2015, 09:23 AM
Here is my K13 and if you look at the 2 population component I come out 50% Irish and 50% Norwegian so basically between the British Isles and Scandinavia which appears to bear out what Davidski said.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 52.04
2 Baltic 25.27
3 West_Med 9.81
4 West_Asian 7.25
5 East_Med 1.77
6 Red_Sea 1.50
7 Amerindian 1.38


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Dutch @ 3.343981
2 Irish @ 3.397813
3 West_Scottish @ 4.026271
4 Norwegian @ 4.042346
5 Orcadian @ 4.244986
6 Danish @ 4.289660
7 North_German @ 6.192955
8 Southeast_English @ 6.842666
9 Southwest_English @ 6.901150
10 Swedish @ 7.318733
11 South_Dutch @ 11.629003
12 West_German @ 12.655422
13 North_Swedish @ 14.482445
14 Austrian @ 17.549162
15 East_German @ 17.693420
16 French @ 18.062477
17 Hungarian @ 22.544872
18 Southwest_Finnish @ 23.876503
19 Spanish_Cataluna @ 26.292759
20 Southwest_French @ 27.316259

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +50% Norwegian @ 2.522953


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% Norwegian +25% Norwegian @ 2.522953


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.519424
2 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 2.522953
3 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.540311
4 Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.548502
5 Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.564251
6 North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.622005
7 North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.648387
8 Irish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.664680
9 Irish + North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.680890
10 Danish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.683445
11 Danish + Irish + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.695799
12 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.721051
13 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.729033
14 Danish + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.747781
15 Irish + Irish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 2.753577
16 Irish + Irish + North_German + Norwegian @ 2.764748
17 Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.766720
18 North_Dutch + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.767802
19 Irish + Swedish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.767981
20 Irish + Irish + Irish + Swedish @ 2.775764