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vettor
02-04-2015, 09:11 AM
Read a french paper I came across these

PARSI CORSES = persian Corsicans

some history below

The word "Parsi" means Persia, and it is from this region from which this community fascinating history including religion, Parsiism, is derived from the Zoroastrian religion. The Zoroastrian religion is a monotheistic religion characterized by the worship of fire and based on the choice of good against evil, founded by the prophet Zarathrustra -600 BC .
In the middle of the eighth century, a few years after the death of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, his second successor, Omar, attacked Persia. 30,000 Arab soldiers were victorious over a Persian army of 120,000 men at Tisfoun (located a few kilometers from Baghdad).
Therefore the Muslim army continued its advance to the Iranian plateau and in all regions where the Parsis were established.
The majority of them fled to India in Gujarat province, led by their leader Dhaval. Upon arrival, Rhana king of Gujarat, hands a bowl full of milk to Dhaval saying "my country is as bowl, if I add something it will overflow" Dhaval adds a sugar spoon and says "my people will bring you happiness and softening. " Thus began the expansion of the Parsi community in India.
DNA testing of contemporary Parsi Corsicans confirm their origin Persia because they carry a specific genetic marker, the T-M184.
A more refined analysis of the DNA of Parsi Corsicans their direct ancestor is in a region of southeastern Iran today, Mazandaran Province, whose capital, Kerman, was an important cultural center of antiquity.

The ancestors of Corsicans Parsi had also served under a former officer Persia, Al-Aghlad, from the North-East of Iran and incorporated into the Arab army for his military qualities.

Its route to North Africa led to the founder of the dynasty Aghlabite Kairouan (current Tunisia).

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/parsi_zps4d7ebe35.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/parsi_zps4d7ebe35.jpg.html)

I would like to get more information , if anyone has it

Eit:
IMO, Map is slightly out because Gujarat is the peninsula where pakistan meets india ( in india )

jesus
02-04-2015, 10:26 AM
Zoroastrians from Yazd(pretty close to Kerman) and Teheran don't have Y-DNA T. Persians from Yazd are 6.4% T tho

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

The Barnacle
02-04-2015, 05:32 PM
Read a french paper I came across these

PARSI CORSES = persian Corsicans

some history below

The word "Parsi" means Persia, and it is from this region from which this community fascinating history including religion, Parsiism, is derived from the Zoroastrian religion. The Zoroastrian religion is a monotheistic religion characterized by the worship of fire and based on the choice of good against evil, founded by the prophet Zarathrustra -600 BC .
In the middle of the eighth century, a few years after the death of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, his second successor, Omar, attacked Persia. 30,000 Arab soldiers were victorious over a Persian army of 120,000 men at Tisfoun (located a few kilometers from Baghdad).
Therefore the Muslim army continued its advance to the Iranian plateau and in all regions where the Parsis were established.
The majority of them fled to India in Gujarat province, led by their leader Dhaval. Upon arrival, Rhana king of Gujarat, hands a bowl full of milk to Dhaval saying "my country is as bowl, if I add something it will overflow" Dhaval adds a sugar spoon and says "my people will bring you happiness and softening. " Thus began the expansion of the Parsi community in India.
DNA testing of contemporary Parsi Corsicans confirm their origin Persia because they carry a specific genetic marker, the T-M184.
A more refined analysis of the DNA of Parsi Corsicans their direct ancestor is in a region of southeastern Iran today, Mazandaran Province, whose capital, Kerman, was an important cultural center of antiquity.

The ancestors of Corsicans Parsi had also served under a former officer Persia, Al-Aghlad, from the North-East of Iran and incorporated into the Arab army for his military qualities.

Its route to North Africa led to the founder of the dynasty Aghlabite Kairouan (current Tunisia).

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/parsi_zps4d7ebe35.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/parsi_zps4d7ebe35.jpg.html)

I would like to get more information , if anyone has it

Eit:
IMO, Map is slightly out because Gujarat is the peninsula where pakistan meets india ( in india )

Omar wasn't a prophet btw

vettor
02-04-2015, 05:34 PM
Zoroastrians from Yazd(pretty close to Kerman) and Teheran don't have Y-DNA T. Persians from Yazd are 6.4% T tho

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

thanks

Of course the figures are of today, we do not know what % where around in those areas 1000 years ago

vettor
02-04-2015, 05:35 PM
Omar wasn't a prophet btw

who was this second successor ?....just a military leader?

palamede
02-04-2015, 06:00 PM
I have never heard of Corsican Parsi.

Make sure it is not a joke !

What is the paper ?

vettor
02-04-2015, 06:18 PM
I have never heard of Corsican Parsi.

Make sure it is not a joke !

What is the paper ?

I cannot read french and I got the article second hand ..................which is why i asked the question.
But I was also given this which I do not know how legitimate it is ...dated early middle-ages

Lettre de l'émir de Sardaigne adressée à l'émir de Sicile, le mardi 16 septembre 895

« J'informe sa Grandeur, que pour la nouvelle année je ferais partir les navires que je possède en Sardaigne pour les envoyer en Corse, et voir de quelles forces disposent ces gens, et si nous pouvons prendre possession de cette île, car si nous pouvons prendre cette île j'en informerai immédiatement sa grandeur, afin qu'elle m'envoie une bonne expédition de gens, comme cela s'est fait en Sardaigne, et ainsi nous nous rendrons maîtres de cette île. Quand cette île sera conquise par l'émir, que sa grandeur enverra avec l'armée, alors nous pourrons mutuellement nous aider. Parce que si la gente ennemie veut prendre la Sardaigne, elle ne pourra se réfugier en Corse, et si la gente ennemie veut prendre la Corse, elle ne pourra pas se réfugier en Sardaigne, et plus personne ne pourra nous faire partir de ces deux îles. Cela serait mon avis, bien sur sa grandeur, qui seule commande, ordonnera ce qu'elle jugera le mieux : Et pourtant il me semble que ce serait une très bonne chose. Avec mon front qui touche le sol, j'embrasse les mains de sa grandeur et je signe ainsi: Emir Safian Ben Kasagia, par la grâce de Dieu, serviteur de sa grandeur Alhasan Ben el Aabbas, Emir Chbir de Sicile.
Medina de Sardaigne le 22 du mois d'Asam l'an 282 de Mahomet. »

L’émir de Sicile, à travers sa correspondance, a donné un avis favorable à ce projet et fourni les troupes nécessaires pour la constitution du corps expéditionnaire en Corse, dont les Parsi parmis ses troupes d’élite. C’est ainsi 15 000 hommes embarqués sur 70 navires qui firent route vers la Sardaigne et la Corse.
L’aventure étant incertaine il fut interdit aux militaires d’embarquer avec leurs familles, restées en Sicile, ce qui provoqua quelques remous dont l’émir de Sardaigne se fit l’écho.

Le 19 du mois d’Al Mouharram 284 (26/02/897), une lettre de Corse est portée à l’émir de Sardaigne, qui la fait suivre immédiatement à l’émir de Sicile. Cette lettre est un rapport circonstancié de plusieurs pages, dont voici des courts extraits :

« Alhasan Ben el Aabbas, par la grâce de Dieu, Emir Chbir de Sicile, l’émir Ibrahim ben Mustafa, avec son front qui touche le sol, embrasse les mains de sa grandeur, et l’informe que le 25 du mois de Chawwal 283 (05/12/896), je suis arrivé avec l’armée en Sardaigne. J’ai informé par lettre l’émir Safian Ben Kasagia que je demeurerais ici quelques jours, et le 2 du mois de Dhou Al-qi'da (11/12/896), je suis parti de Sardaigne avec toute l’armée et le 3 du même mois de Dhou Al-qi'da (12/12/896) je suis arrivé en Corse.
Après avoir débarqué avec tous les gens de l’armée, j’ai fait établir un campement. Le 4 du même mois de Dhou Al-qi'da (13/12/896), alors que nous cheminions vers la Medina (Capitale) de cette île, nous avons donné un grand assaut, qui s’est passé assez bien : Tous les gens qui n’ont pu s’enfuir ont été passé au fil de l’épée, à la réserve des femmes et des enfants. Nous nous sommes rendus mettre de cette Medina, 3 heures avant que le soleil ne se couche nous en étions les seigneurs. Le 5 du même mois de Dhou Al-qi'da (14/12/896) j’ai fait rassembler nos gens morts dans cet assaut, qui furent au nombre de Trois Cents Quarante Sept, et je les ais fait inhumés. J’ai fait aussi rassembler tous les gens de ce pays qui étaient morts, qui étaient au nombre de Cinq Cents Soixante et Onze : je ne l’ai ais pas fait bruler, mais enterrer. (…)
J’ai demandé aux femmes ‘Pourquoi vos maris nous ont combattu ?’, elles m’ont répondu ‘Parce qu’ils avaient peur, que vous les eussiez tué, c’est pour cela qu’ils vous ont combattu’. Je leur ai dit :’Ecoutez braves femmes, je suis venu ici pour faire le bien et pas pour vous soumettre ; j’ai fait tuer ces gens parce qu’ils nous ont combattu, si ils ne nous avaient pas combattu, je les aurais traité comme des fils’. (…)

Ibrahim Ben Mustafa s’est ensuite employé à faire revenir les hommes fuyards dans leur cité, qui une fois avoir reconnu son autorité ont pu jouir normalement de l’usage de leurs biens. Le récit continu.

« Le 13 jours du mois de Dhou Al-qi'da (22/12/896), j’ai fait venir devant moi certains des habitants de ce lieu et je leur ai dit ‘Ecoutez, hommes bons, je pense aller à la conquête des cités et maisonnées de l’intérieur de l’île’ (…) ‘Dites aux habitants de ces lieux qu’ils peuvent venir à la Medina et se présenter à leur nouveau souverain, lequel les accueillera avec affection, et fera quelques réjouissances avec eux’ (…)
Maintenant je vais leur envoyer dans chaque lieu un de mes hommes les gouverner, parce qu’ils ne sont pas habitués à avoir un gouverneur, et qu’il est nécessaire de les administrer avec prudence et douceur. Dans la Medina ou je me trouve, je réside dans un beau château, plus grand que celui dans lequel je vivais. (…)
Emir Ibrahim ben Mustafa, par la grâce de Dieu, serviteur de sa grandeur Alhasan Ben el Aabbas, Emir Chbir de Sicile. Medina de Korsica le 12 du mois ALmouharram 284 de Mahomet »

Maybe you can give me an English version

parasar
02-04-2015, 07:22 PM
Read a french paper I came across these

PARSI CORSES = persian Corsicans

some history below

The word "Parsi" means Persia, and it is from this region from which this community fascinating history including religion, Parsiism, is derived from the Zoroastrian religion. The Zoroastrian religion is a monotheistic religion characterized by the worship of fire and based on the choice of good against evil, founded by the prophet Zarathrustra -600 BC .
In the middle of the eighth century, a few years after the death of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, his second successor, Omar, attacked Persia. 30,000 Arab soldiers were victorious over a Persian army of 120,000 men at Tisfoun (located a few kilometers from Baghdad).
Therefore the Muslim army continued its advance to the Iranian plateau and in all regions where the Parsis were established.
The majority of them fled to India in Gujarat province, led by their leader Dhaval. Upon arrival, Rhana king of Gujarat, hands a bowl full of milk to Dhaval saying "my country is as bowl, if I add something it will overflow" Dhaval adds a sugar spoon and says "my people will bring you happiness and softening. " Thus began the expansion of the Parsi community in India.
DNA testing of contemporary Parsi Corsicans confirm their origin Persia because they carry a specific genetic marker, the T-M184.
A more refined analysis of the DNA of Parsi Corsicans their direct ancestor is in a region of southeastern Iran today, Mazandaran Province, whose capital, Kerman, was an important cultural center of antiquity.

The ancestors of Corsicans Parsi had also served under a former officer Persia, Al-Aghlad, from the North-East of Iran and incorporated into the Arab army for his military qualities.

Its route to North Africa led to the founder of the dynasty Aghlabite Kairouan (current Tunisia).



I would like to get more information , if anyone has it

Eit:
IMO, Map is slightly out because Gujarat is the peninsula where pakistan meets india ( in india )

Their settlement in Gujarat is obviously a historical certainty.

One of the main Parsi settlements was in Navsari. https://books.google.com/books?id=oaSHIlcRejEC&pg=PA99
There is a good chance that they were involved in major battle with the Tajiks (Indian and Persian name for Arabs) there. Though as neither the Arab documents nor the Indian ones mention that, we can't be certain.

http://www.dietnavsari.org/portals/7/images/NavsariMap.gif

palamede
02-04-2015, 07:27 PM
Authenticity of the letters ? I am suspicious !
Do you know the authors and the title of the paper ?

Unique comment about Parsi as element of the army is
"L’émir de Sicile, à travers sa correspondance, a donné un avis favorable à ce projet et fourni les troupes nécessaires pour la constitution du corps expéditionnaire en Corse, dont les Parsi parmis ses troupes d’élite. C’est ainsi 15 000 hommes embarqués sur 70 navires qui firent route vers la Sardaigne et la Corse."
Quick translation :
"in his letters, Sicilia emir gave a favourable agreement for the project and provided troops for the building of an expeditionary force to Corsica in which the Parsi were among the elite soldiers. Thus 15,000 men embarked in 70 boats which headed towards Sardinia and Sicilia."

If it is not a hoax, Parsi could be Persian moslems and no zoroastrians.
Anyway I have never heard of known descendants of Parsi in Corsica, Sardinia, Sicilia and Tunisia.

I dont't know if there is more remained information about history and actors compared to the information in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Italy

palamede
02-04-2015, 08:06 PM
I have just found an internet address speaking of the subject in French.

It was a (fictional ?) assembly about possible origin of the Corsican last name "PARSI" with no known document to prove the persian origin.

http://www.parsi-corsica.com/origine.html

wild imagining or not ?

"Les tests ADN pratiqués sur les Parsi Corses contemporains confirment leur origine Perse car ils sont porteurs d'un marqueur génétique spécifique, le T-M184."
translation :
"The DNA tests done by the Corsican Parsi confirm the Persian origin as They are bearers of the specific genetic markers T-M184.

"Le plus ancien document écrit mentionnant les Parsi est un acte de mariage de 1602 dans lequel est cité un témoin ; G. Parsio."
translation :
"The oldest written document mentioning the Parsi is a marriage certificate in 1602 in which the witness is G.Parsio"
The following document mentioned the catholic priest Paolo Parsii in 1642.

These letters of the emirs would be kept in the Fez-Morocco library translated by Alfonso Airoldi from arab to toscan in 1789. It is to verify this t is not afabulating. I think it is an invention.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfonso_Airoldi

http://books.google.it/books?id=EZSX4JGIE8wC&dq=memorie+di+sicilia+airoldi&source=gbs_navlinks_s

The Barnacle
02-04-2015, 08:26 PM
who was this second successor ?....just a military leader?

A prophet is a prophet of god, he was a caliph. That's what you would call the leader of the caliphate and rashidun empires.

lgmayka
02-04-2015, 11:07 PM
Anyway I have never heard of known descendants of Parsi in Corsica, Sardinia, Sicilia and Tunisia.
Coincidentally, a Tunisian R1a-YP1272 (the former R1a-SRY10831.2* (http://yfull.com/tree/R-YP1272/)) was just asking me how in the world his rare clade got to Tunisia. (The R1a-YP1272 entry already on YFull's haplotree is from Belarus.) Frankly, a migration from Iran sounds as reasonable an explanation as any. :)

palamede
02-05-2015, 09:42 AM
1) I don't disagree with the possibility of persian soldiers in the moslem armies in Occidental Mediterrane. There were also a lot of Caucasian slave soldiers as the Mameluks. but I don't know the presence of Zoroastrians in Occidental Med..

2) A genealogical site gives a possible origin of the word "parsi" in some roman dialects in France : productor or seller of Pairsley (Persil in french and parsi in dialects)

3) Alfonso Airoldi wrote the book about Arab Sicilia with Guiseppe Vella as discoverer of old arab texts and translator from arab. Guissepe Vella was a famous forger in Italia . Translate the italian text in wikipedia :
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Vella

vettor
02-05-2015, 06:15 PM
1) I don't disagree with the possibility of persian soldiers in the moslem armies in Occidental Mediterrane. There were also a lot of Caucasian slave soldiers as the Mameluks. but I don't know the presence of Zoroastrians in Occidental Med..

2) A genealogical site gives a possible origin of the word "parsi" in some roman dialects in France : productor or seller of Pairsley (Persil in french and parsi in dialects)

3) Alfonso Airoldi wrote the book about Arab Sicilia with Guiseppe Vella as discoverer of old arab texts and translator from arab. Guissepe Vella was a famous forger in Italia . Translate the italian text in wikipedia :
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Vella

so, can it be fact?

wiki has

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsi

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=cHvNuQhH1GYC&pg=PA304&dq=zoroastrian+parsi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cbPTVLO8AebOmwX2hoDIBQ&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=zoroastrian%20parsi&f=false

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=pfO4-5yh7VYC&pg=PA858&dq=zoroastrian+parsi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cbPTVLO8AebOmwX2hoDIBQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=zoroastrian%20parsi&f=false


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism_in_India


http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Parsi.aspx

palamede
02-06-2015, 04:04 AM
so, can it be fact?



The fact is the text you quoted is the french translation of an italian text which is a complete forgery done by Giuseppe Vella.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Vella

but misfortunately, it is very taken as a reference two centuries after the text was demonstrated a forgery. An other famous example of the prolonged success of a proved forgery is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

Therefore there is no known connection between Farsi (Zoroastrians or moslem persians soldiers) and Corsica. Presence of hg T in Corsican could get an other explanation (Cardial culture, Sea people Phenicians, Jews or other eastern people come during Roman empire or Middle age).

moreover the last name FARSI could have an other explanation like producer or seller of pairsley.

The map about the travel of "Farsi soldiers" was made by the owner of the site http://www.parsi-corsica.com/origine.html according to the text forged by Guiseppe Vella and the location of important presence of hg T in Med.sea.

But if you look at the frequency of T around Med. Sea there is no chance it is due to zoroastrians and anyway I don't know historic reference to zoroastrians in europe and Med. area (except London in the contemprary era).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184

You could thank me to signal you were quoting text which is a FORGERY.

Theramster
08-08-2016, 03:51 AM
Coincidentally, a Tunisian R1a-YP1272 (the former R1a-SRY10831.2* (http://yfull.com/tree/R-YP1272/)) was just asking me how in the world his rare clade got to Tunisia. (The R1a-YP1272 entry already on YFull's haplotree is from Belarus.) Frankly, a migration from Iran sounds as reasonable an explanation as any. :)

Except for the caveat that there are no samples from Iran or Arabia that bear any semblance to these YP1272. All known basal groups are very distant from them. There are also 3 more samples suspected to be akin to these Belarus & Tunisian lines, belonging equally in all probability to a downstream subclade of YP1272 on the R1a ftdna group. It just doesn't make sense that a Persian line, not yet found in Iran & vicinity, was responsible for Italy, Czech, Russia, Belarus and Tunisia samples, especially if you assume it occured from the 7th century onwards. The separation between Tunisia and the other European lines predates Islam evidenced by their STR mutations. So we could improvise but we can't be sure how it got there. My guess would be that it got there from Europe in the Byzantine - Visigothic-Vandals period. It would make sense that this paternal line continued its life in Europe hence incurring different mutations and left a representative in Tunisia to incur its own.

ffoucart
08-08-2016, 08:05 AM
I want just to add that various forms of PARSI are common in France: PARSY, PARSYS,....with no connection with Persia.

Darko
08-21-2016, 09:20 PM
Except for the caveat that there are no samples from Iran or Arabia that bear any semblance to these YP1272. All known basal groups are very distant from them. There are also 3 more samples suspected to be akin to these Belarus & Tunisian lines, belonging equally in all probability to a downstream subclade of YP1272 on the R1a ftdna group. It just doesn't make sense that a Persian line, not yet found in Iran & vicinity, was responsible for Italy, Czech, Russia, Belarus and Tunisia samples, especially if you assume it occured from the 7th century onwards. The separation between Tunisia and the other European lines predates Islam evidenced by their STR mutations. So we could improvise but we can't be sure how it got there. My guess would be that it got there from Europe in the Byzantine - Visigothic-Vandals period. It would make sense that this paternal line continued its life in Europe hence incurring different mutations and left a representative in Tunisia to incur its own.

interesting, So in your opinion this line came to Tunisia from europe during vandal, byzantine or roman era then he return to europe and left there a descendants so in some way these italian, Belarusian and russian lines are descandants from a back to europe ancestor, but why not the opposite i.e he left descendants in Europe is he came to Tunisia where he left another descendant? is your guess is based on str mutations?

Theramster
08-22-2016, 04:01 PM
interesting, So in your opinion this line came to Tunisia from europe during vandal, byzantine or roman era then he return to europe and left there a descendants so in some way these italian, Belarusian and russian lines are descandants from a back to europe ancestor, but why not the opposite i.e he left descendants in Europe is he came to Tunisia where he left another descendant? is your guess is based on str mutations?

No back to Europe. The theory goes as follows: This line with the downstream mutation Yp1272》YP1276 came from Europe to Tunisia during the aforementioned Byzantine-Visigothic-Vandals at an early date while it left behind representatives in Europe. These separated lines continued to incur their own unique STR mutations in Tunisia and Europe ( Czech - Russian - Italy - Belarus in this order of separation). Both STR mutations and common downstream SNP. Check it out here:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=yresults