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Skerdilaidas
11-17-2015, 09:36 PM
**NEW**

Thaci (Thaqi - Vokshi Brotherhood) - Peje, Kosova (Origins from Voksh, Decan): J2b2-Z590

http://oi64.tinypic.com/34eu4nl.jpg

Skerdilaidas
11-17-2015, 09:38 PM
**NEW**

Krasniqi - Prishtina, Kosova: J2b2-Z590

http://oi67.tinypic.com/2lwu3au.jpg

ukaj
11-18-2015, 12:24 AM
In this link Elsie mentions that he thinks Keq Preka was a Bosnian Slav. I do not agree with this personally. Personally I think that Keq Preka was most likely Albanian. Anyway he says that Keq Preqa lived around the year 1520. In the Wikipedia link above it looks like Keq Preka lived more so around the year 1480. At least that is when he seems to have moved south from the Herzegovinian highlands. When do you think Keq Preka most likely migrated from the Herzegovinian highlands to North Albania and founded the ''New Hoti'' tribe?

https://books.google.ca/books?id=-EzWCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=Elsie+Hoti+Keq+Preka&source=bl&ots=-2J_vHwlc6&sig=BFUvTgFcd9S2ji6-8YsJA7O_6rM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAWoVChMIpfSGsO-SyQIVSJUeCh3eMw5X#v=onepage&q=Elsie%20Hoti%20Keq%20Preka&f=falseTheir is no new hoti simple as that,Their is no knew krasniqi,Most likely most northern tribes came from herzgovinia highlands as were of illyrians whom lived sicluded from everyone,If these tests you say of krasniqi being j2 or what ever then this would mean they have very much lived sicluded,But i very doubt that,my cousins is a albanian historian an a well respected one at that.an he has told me about the tribes,,you keep posting time frame of when the new an old hoti lived it makes no sence,If a albanian tribes does not mix with the so called old hoti or new it means they are blood related as below as it says.
"No, no," said the old man, "not brother. But part of Nikaj is related to Krasnichi by a later generation, and so to us also, and we cannot marry them. They come from the houses of Bijeli-Krasnich and Mulo-Smaint. Shaban Benaku, the celebrated chief of Krasnich, is straight from Krasni, brother of Gheg Laz, my forefather. And half the tribe of Triepshi, the stem of Bakechi, is of Hoti blood. We cannot marry them. The other half–the Bekaj–we can. They are not our blood; they come from Kopliku. Triepshi belongs to Montenegro now, but is all Catholic. When Gheg Laz and his sons came here, there were already people here."This means that the so called new hoti is related to the old hoti as you say..I dont know your intension but you really have no idea

Skerdilaidas
11-18-2015, 04:25 AM
Bro, according to Hoti clansmen there are new and old Hoti that are not related by blood. Are you calling Marash Uēi, an old school warrior and a man of kanun, a liar? What do you mean by "lived secluded"? Two Hoti and three Krasniqi are J2b2 so far. Also, not all Clans came from Herzegovina.

ukaj
11-20-2015, 08:44 AM
Bro, according to Hoti clansmen there are new and old Hoti that are not related by blood. Are you calling Marash Uēi, an old school warrior and a man of kanun, a liar? What do you mean by "lived secluded"? Two Hoti and three Krasniqi are J2b2 so far. Also, not all Clans came from Herzegovina.Their is not bro...Old hoti an new hoti doubt it, HEAR you can see with this what was said No, no," said the old man, "not brother. But part of Nikaj is related to Krasnichi by a later generation, and so to us also, and we cannot marry them. They come from the houses of Bijeli-Krasnich and Mulo-Smaint. Shaban Benaku, the celebrated chief of Krasnich, is straight from Krasni, brother of Gheg Laz.So if he says hes related to them an a brother of gheg lazar then this is simple.gheg lazar is old hoti is he not?their is not old krasniqi fis their is only one krasniqi fis bro.they are from north albania in trapoja an are still their the ones that remained catholic an the others who converted to islam from krasnichi fis are in peja an rahovec,..An no i not call anyone lier.an man of kanuni my whole family are of kanuni but not matter,anyway i disagree with you thats all...and as for living sicluded what i ean by this is,If these tests are j2b2 then they must have lived away from slavs in herzgovinia.that is all i mean.

Trojet
01-09-2016, 01:28 AM
As some of you have noticed, Albanians are not so much interested in DNA testing. As a result our project is lacking far behind in comparison to pretty much every other national project at FTDNA.

I'm planning on going back home for a visit this summer. If anyone is interested in helping our project, feel free to donate. All the funds we can raise until this summer, will be used to purchase as many as possible Y12 kits from FTDNA, which then I will take back home and test random Albanians from different places, including from tribal areas which are undersampled. At the very least, we can determine the haplogroup even on Y12. Samples can then be upgraded to Y37 if more more funds are raised. Will post results here as well, especially if this is successful.
Here is the link to our project. Any amount helps. Just click the DONATE link to the left and make sure "Albanian Bloodlines" is selected (should be selected by default):
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about

Thanks in advance :)

Gravetto-Danubian
01-09-2016, 01:38 AM
As some of you have noticed, Albanians are not so much interested in DNA testing. As a result our project is lacking far behind in comparison to pretty much every other national project at FTDNA.

I'm planning on going back home for a visit this summer. If anyone is interested in helping our project, feel free to donate. All the funds we can raise until this summer, will be used to purchase as many as possible Y12 kits from FTDNA, which then I will take back home and test random Albanians from different places, including from tribal areas which are undersampled. At the very least, we can determine the haplogroup even on Y12. Samples can then be upgraded to Y37 if more more funds are raised. Will post results here as well, especially if this is successful.
Here is the link to our project. Any amount helps. Just click the DONATE link to the left and make sure "Albanian Bloodlines" is selected (should be selected by default):
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about

Thanks in advance :)

I've tested some Albanian samples
They'll be out soon

Trojet
01-09-2016, 01:42 AM
I've tested some Albanian samples
They'll be out soon

Seriously! With what company. Let me know their results when u get them.:P

Gravetto-Danubian
01-09-2016, 01:45 AM
Seriously! That's awesome. Do you work with any archeologists? What areas and from what times are we talking about?

I meant modern (but have been in contact with some archaeologists. - sshhh)
I've looked at high res. SNPs and possibly a Full Seq for 10-12 Albanian M423s.

I'm also trying to obtain some R1b, R1a, EV13. But that'll be a future project.

J Man
01-10-2016, 09:05 PM
I meant modern (but have been in contact with some archaeologists. - sshhh)
I've looked at high res. SNPs and possibly a Full Seq for 10-12 Albanian M423s.

I'm also trying to obtain some R1b, R1a, EV13. But that'll be a future project.

I wish more people from the Serb tribes would test as well. I am particularly interested in the Y-DNA haplogroup J2a-M92 result from the Perunović man from the Pješivci tribe. It would be great to see if more Perunović men would test to see if they are also J2a-M92 or not.

Asimakidis
01-15-2016, 12:45 PM
As some of you have noticed, Albanians are not so much interested in DNA testing. As a result our project is lacking far behind in comparison to pretty much every other national project at FTDNA.

I'm planning on going back home for a visit this summer. If anyone is interested in helping our project, feel free to donate. All the funds we can raise until this summer, will be used to purchase as many as possible Y12 kits from FTDNA, which then I will take back home and test random Albanians from different places, including from tribal areas which are undersampled. At the very least, we can determine the haplogroup even on Y12. Samples can then be upgraded to Y37 if more more funds are raised. Will post results here as well, especially if this is successful.
Here is the link to our project. Any amount helps. Just click the DONATE link to the left and make sure "Albanian Bloodlines" is selected (should be selected by default):
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about

Thanks in advance :)


Donated 15 bucks! Good luck with the project! :)

Trojet
01-15-2016, 12:56 PM
Donated 15 bucks! Good luck with the project! :)

Donation received :). It may take a while for the total to update on the page.
Thank you. I truly appreciate it.

BTW, I plan to carry this random testing of Albanians this summer. I already have a few kits I purchased myself. Any funds raised, will be used to purchase additional Y12 kits, with the goal to eventually upgrade to Y37. I will make the kits public on the project and will post results here as well.

Asimakidis
01-15-2016, 01:20 PM
Donation received :). It may take a while for the total to update on the page.
Thank you. I truly appreciate it.

BTW, I plan to carry this random testing of Albanians this summer. I already have a few kits I purchased myself. Any funds raised, will be used to purchase additional Y12 kits, with the goal to eventually upgrade to Y37. I will make the kits public on the project and will post results here as well.

Keep up the good work!

I have albanian friends in Sweden that I should encourage to test as well. Most of my friends in the outskirts of Athens (Elefsina/Aspropyrgos) have some connection to the Arvanites (even if most of them probably are mixed with other Greeks). I know that they still dance Arvanitika and the old people still speak the Arvanitika dialect. Should be interesting to have them test as well :).

Trojet
01-15-2016, 02:02 PM
Keep up the good work!

I have albanian friends in Sweden that I should encourage to test as well. Most of my friends in the outskirts of Athens (Elefsina/Aspropyrgos) have some connection to the Arvanites (even if most of them probably are mixed with other Greeks). I know that they still dance Arvanitika and the old people still speak the Arvanitika dialect. Should be interesting to have them test as well :).

Absolutely! Feel free to send them the link to our project. They can order from there if they wish to test.

eastara
01-17-2016, 02:38 AM
I am also very interested in the Albanian results, Unfortunately, only Greeks on the Balkan admit some Albanian influence due to the Arvanites. However Christian Albanians used to live in many parts of the Ottoman empire like Serbia, Bosnia and even Eastern Bulgaria and Moldova They mostly got assimilated into those Christian nations. Muslim Albanians continue to emigrate to Turkey and identify as Turks now.
I am also going to donate to the project, could you collect samples around Southern Albania, close to Macedonia.

Trojet
01-17-2016, 07:34 AM
I am also very interested in the Albanian results, Unfortunately, only Greeks on the Balkan admit some Albanian influence due to the Arvanites. However Christian Albanians used to live in many parts of the Ottoman empire like Serbia, Bosnia and even Eastern Bulgaria and Moldova They mostly got assimilated into those Christian nations. Muslim Albanians continue to emigrate to Turkey and identify as Turks now.
I am also going to donate to the project, could you collect samples around Southern Albania, close to Macedonia.

Thanks for the $20 eastara :). Donation received. This is very encouraging!

The vast majority of our members come from Kosovo, a few from Western Macedonia. (Some kits from Kosovo have listed Albania as origin). So my plan is to test in Albania proper. My priority is Northern Albania however. I cannot promise I will go to Southern Albania, but my goal is to cover that area too, especially if I have extra kits. I will certainly keep your suggestion in mind :)

leapfrogger
01-18-2016, 12:51 AM
Thanks for the $20 eastara :). Donation received. This is very encouraging!

The vast majority of our members come from Kosovo, a few from Western Macedonia. (Some kits from Kosovo have listed Albania as origin). So my plan is to test in Albania proper. My priority is Northern Albania however. I cannot promise I will go to Southern Albania, but my goal is to cover that area too, especially if I have extra kits. I will certainly keep your suggestion in mind :)

How much does one kit cost? I want to donate and in spring I will hopefully buy a kit myself.

Trojet
01-18-2016, 01:28 AM
How much does one kit cost? I want to donate and in spring I will hopefully buy a kit myself.

Y-DNA37 is recommended which costs $149. However, you may start with Y-DNA12 which costs $59 and upgrade later:
https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?group=AlbanianBloodlines&code=B11086

Skerdilaidas
01-19-2016, 04:57 PM
Just wanted to update this thread because I just received my ftdna results, kit# 440881. Anyway I am the R1b Thaēi clansmen from Baica, Drenica region, Kosova listed on the Albanian Bloodlines project:


Panel 1 (1-12)
Marker DYS393 DYS390 DYS19** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II***
Value 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29
PANEL 2 (13-25)
Marker DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464
Value 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-16-16-17
PANEL 3 (26-37)
Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
Value 11 11 19-23 15 15 18 17 36-37 12 12
PANEL 4 (38-47)
Marker DYS531 DYS578 DYF395S1 DYS590 DYS537 DYS641 DYS472 DYF406S1 DYS511
Value 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11
PANEL 4 (48-60)
Marker DYS425 DYS413 DYS557 DYS594 DYS436 DYS490 DYS534 DYS450 DYS444 DYS481 DYS520 DYS446
Value 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 15
PANEL 4 (61-67)
Marker DYS617 DYS568 DYS487 DYS572 DYS640 DYS492 DYS565
Value 12 11 13 10 11 12 12



Typical Balkan Cluster?

Trojet
01-19-2016, 05:29 PM
Just wanted to update this thread because I just received my ftdna results, kit# 440881. Anyway I am the R1b Thaēi clansmen from Baica, Drenica region, Kosova listed on the Albanian Bloodlines project:


Panel 1 (1-12)
Marker DYS393 DYS390 DYS19** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II***
Value 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29
PANEL 2 (13-25)
Marker DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464
Value 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-16-16-17
PANEL 3 (26-37)
Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
Value 11 11 19-23 15 15 18 17 36-37 12 12
PANEL 4 (38-47)
Marker DYS531 DYS578 DYF395S1 DYS590 DYS537 DYS641 DYS472 DYF406S1 DYS511
Value 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11
PANEL 4 (48-60)
Marker DYS425 DYS413 DYS557 DYS594 DYS436 DYS490 DYS534 DYS450 DYS444 DYS481 DYS520 DYS446
Value 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 15
PANEL 4 (61-67)
Marker DYS617 DYS568 DYS487 DYS572 DYS640 DYS492 DYS565
Value 12 11 13 10 11 12 12



Typical Balkan Cluster?

Awesome!
Yes, I would say you should definitely be positive for R1b-BY611/A1777/Y10789 (www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y10789/) aka "Balkan Cluster" with those STR values.

Your results are also very important for our Clan project, since you also have a match at GD of 2 on Y37 with kit E11866 who I believe belongs to the same Clan as yours:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/AlbanianBloodlines?iframe=yresults

Skerdilaidas
01-19-2016, 07:56 PM
Awesome!
Yes, I would say you should definitely be positive for R1b-BY611 (www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y10789/) aka "Balkan Cluster" with those STR values.

Your results are also very important for our Clan project, since you also have a match at GD of 2 on Y37 with kit E11866 who I believe belongs to the same Clan as yours:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/AlbanianBloodlines?iframe=yresults

Cool!

Agreed. Yes, he belongs to Elshani/Helshani clan which is an offshoot of Thaēi.

psaglav
01-19-2016, 08:16 PM
This project is going to be interesting. All the more so for me now as my grandmother got a 3rd to 5th cousin relative from Kosovo yesterday. I'll ask him to join, too. I doubt he has tested for yDNA.

Trojet
01-19-2016, 08:23 PM
This project is going to be interesting. All the more so for me now as my grandmother got a 3rd to 5th cousin relative from Kosovo yesterday. I'll ask him to join, too. I doubt he has tested for yDNA.

Please do! Hopefully he decides to test Y-DNA in the future.
Make sure it is the one in my signature, "Albanian Bloodlines".

Joe B
01-19-2016, 11:12 PM
Just wanted to update this thread because I just received my ftdna results, kit# 440881. Anyway I am the R1b Thaēi clansmen from Baica, Drenica region, Kosova listed on the Albanian Bloodlines project:


Panel 1 (1-12)
Marker DYS393 DYS390 DYS19** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II***
Value 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29
PANEL 2 (13-25)
Marker DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464
Value 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-16-16-17
PANEL 3 (26-37)
Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
Value 11 11 19-23 15 15 18 17 36-37 12 12
PANEL 4 (38-47)
Marker DYS531 DYS578 DYF395S1 DYS590 DYS537 DYS641 DYS472 DYF406S1 DYS511
Value 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11
PANEL 4 (48-60)
Marker DYS425 DYS413 DYS557 DYS594 DYS436 DYS490 DYS534 DYS450 DYS444 DYS481 DYS520 DYS446
Value 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 15
PANEL 4 (61-67)
Marker DYS617 DYS568 DYS487 DYS572 DYS640 DYS492 DYS565
Value 12 11 13 10 11 12 12



Typical Balkan Cluster?
It's an extraordinary Balkan Cluster that has a lot of room for SNP discovery. Kit# 440881 can be found in subgroup _b3a3b3. R1b-L23: Z2103+ CTS7822+ CTS9219+ should test BY611 in the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project.
It's neat to see the good work you all are doing with Albanian Y haplotypes. One of the administrators of the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project belongs to the Balkan Cluster. I suggest messaging brygian to work out a game plan to discover the SNPs that define the R1b-BY611 Balkan cluster. BY611 is too old to be one of those SNPs. The attached graphic is a R1b-BY611 clip from the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project phylogenetic tree and shows the lack of next generation sequencing (NGS) tests for this cluster. Unless others in the Balkan Cluster are willing to take a NGS test (Y Elite 2.0 or Big Y) for comparison to byrgian's novel SNPs, the Balkan Cluster SNPs will remain undiscovered and not included in future mass market SNP arrays or FTDNA SNP packs. byrgian is one of the best so you have an extraordinary opportunity to do some really good science. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background
7374

paulgill
01-19-2016, 11:30 PM
How much does one kit cost? I want to donate and in spring I will hopefully buy a kit myself.

I too, but in summer, probably US100.

Skerdilaidas
01-20-2016, 03:20 AM
It's an extraordinary Balkan Cluster that has a lot of room for SNP discovery. Kit# 440881 can be found in subgroup _b3a3b3. R1b-L23: Z2103+ CTS7822+ CTS9219+ should test BY611 in the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project.
It's neat to see the good work you all are doing with Albanian Y haplotypes. One of the administrators of the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project belongs to the Balkan Cluster. I suggest messaging brygian to work out a game plan to discover the SNPs that define the R1b-BY611 Balkan cluster. BY611 is too old to be one of those SNPs. The attached graphic is a R1b-BY611 clip from the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project phylogenetic tree and shows the lack of next generation sequencing (NGS) tests for this cluster. Unless others in the Balkan Cluster are willing to take a NGS test (Y Elite 2.0 or Big Y) for comparison to byrgian's novel SNPs, the Balkan Cluster SNPs will remain undiscovered and not included in future mass market SNP arrays or FTDNA SNP packs. byrgian is one of the best so you have an extraordinary opportunity to do some really good science. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background
7374

Thanks, Joe. I have actually made contact with one of the ht35 administrators that belongs to this cluster when I joined earlier today, and if I am not mistaken, he goes here by the name of brygian, as you said. That's actually my plan, I will be going for the big Y by the end of this year, or early next year.

psaglav
01-20-2016, 08:24 AM
Please do! Hopefully he decides to test Y-DNA in the future.
Make sure it is the one in my signature, "Albanian Bloodlines".

I didn't get a chance to talk to him yet, but when I do, I will. I copied your link.

Trojet
01-21-2016, 09:46 PM
How much does one kit cost? I want to donate and in spring I will hopefully buy a kit myself.

Leapfrogger, thanks for the $59 brother :)
Your donation has been received!
We're up to $124 or 2, Y12 kits. This is very encouraging :)
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about


BTW, I plan to carry this random testing of Albanians this summer. I already have a few kits I purchased myself. Any funds raised, will be used to purchase additional Y12 kits, with the goal to eventually upgrade to Y37. I will make the kits public on the project and will post results here as well.

olive picker
01-21-2016, 10:20 PM
damn leapfrogger. nice.

Trojet
01-24-2016, 02:41 PM
New member:
Krasniqi Tribe - Bujanovac Municipality, Serbia. Haplogroup: J2b2-L283

Interesting to note that this Krasniqi member matches our Hoti member at GD 4 on Y37. This distance could very well be less than 1000 years and within the genealogical timeframe. Legend has it that the new Hoti and the Krasniqi tribe are supposed to be brother tribes.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/results

psaglav
01-24-2016, 06:52 PM
Hi guys, apparently my grandmother's match had already had his YDNA test done, his haplogroup is J-Z590 and he is from Kosovo.

Next time we talk, I'm going to tell him about the project website.

paulgill
01-25-2016, 05:15 AM
This may be of much use to those who try to determine their haplogroup using STRs, very useful STRs vs very useless STRs. I hope you people appreciate it. It appears that no DNA testing company have acted on this advice so far.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21612995

eastara
01-28-2016, 05:44 AM
Are there any I2a Dinaric Albanians tested deeper? I have looked through the haplotypes in the Arberesh study and it looks most are Dinaric North but there are also Dinaric South.
I am interested in which part of the North West/ South East Balkan division they will fall.
According to the available data Bulgarians and Macedonians, if North are mostly Z17855+ and if South S17250+, but of no known branch.
Croatians and Bosnians, if North are usually Y4460+, and if South there are also other branches.

Trojet
01-28-2016, 12:04 PM
Are there any I2a Dinaric Albanians tested deeper? I have looked through the haplotypes in the Arberesh study and it looks most are Dinaric North but there are also Dinaric South.
I am interested in which part of the North West/ South East Balkan division they will fall.
According to the available data Bulgarians and Macedonians, if North are mostly Z17855+ and if South S17250+, but of no known branch.
Croatians and Bosnians, if North are usually Y4460+, and if South there are also other branches.

I do not know any.
We have two in our project who are predicted as I2a-Din. One of them has done only Y12, the other Y37. I'm guessing the Y37 can be predicted deeper, but I have not looked into which STRs are used to distinguish between North vs. South. Both of them are not public, however.

eastara
01-29-2016, 06:48 AM
These are the defining STRs for Dinaric:

Distinguishing DYS Markers between Din-N and Din-S
DYS#....Din-S....Din-N
20)448...19.......20
21)449...30.......32

However there have been exceptions and final as always are the SNP tests. Generally North are S17250- and South S17250+. However there are some North branches with S17250+

Some people think that only Dinaric South is connected with the Slavic expansion on the Balkans. Dinaric North Z17855+ could be much older in the Southern Balkans, so if your member is Dinaric North, could you ask him to test Z17855.

Gravetto-Danubian
01-29-2016, 06:54 AM
These are the defining STRs for Dinaric:

Distinguishing DYS Markers between Din-N and Din-S
DYS#....Din-S....Din-N
20)448...19.......20
21)449...30.......32

However there have been exceptions and final as always are the SNP tests. Generally North are S17250- and South S17250+. However there are some North branches with S17250+

Some people think that only Dinaric South is connected with the Slavic expansion on the Balkans. Dinaric North Z17855+ could be much older in the Southern Balkans, so if your member is Dinaric North, could you ask him to test Z17855.

Generally, most DinN are also S17250-something, just not S17250*
But in the Balkans, I'd bet Z17855 as a starter

Trojet
01-29-2016, 01:26 PM
These are the defining STRs for Dinaric:

Distinguishing DYS Markers between Din-N and Din-S
DYS#....Din-S....Din-N
20)448...19.......20
21)449...30.......32

However there have been exceptions and final as always are the SNP tests. Generally North are S17250- and South S17250+. However there are some North branches with S17250+

Some people think that only Dinaric South is connected with the Slavic expansion on the Balkans. Dinaric North Z17855+ could be much older in the Southern Balkans, so if your member is Dinaric North, could you ask him to test Z17855.

Thanks!
He definitely looks Din-N based on those STR values, therefore most likely S17250-. But as you said there have been some exceptions.
I will suggest he tests for Z17855, but from my experience, some of these members in general are quite unresponsive to be honest with you :\

Trojet
02-18-2016, 11:27 PM
http://i63.tinypic.com/2hgvl81.png

olive picker
03-09-2016, 11:46 AM
I ordered a 23andme kit, now for the waiting game

Trojet
03-09-2016, 02:27 PM
I ordered a 23andme kit, now for the waiting game

If your goal is to get info about your autosomal DNA (and a very limited resolution of mtDNA), 23andMe is a good option. Most likely though, you will find out that autosomally you will plot pretty much the same as every (Gheg) Albanian, if not exact.

However, if your main goal is to find out about your paternal lineage (Y-DNA), 23andMe will not get you anywhere due to its very low and outdated resolution of Y-DNA haplogroups, especially since from what I understand, you don't know what Albanian Clan you belong to. For example, if you turn out as R1b-L23 (L51-) (www.yfull.com/tree/R-L23/), there is no way to know if you belong to the Albanian specific R1b-"Balkan Cluster". Similarly with other haplogroups, 23andMe doesn't test below J2b2-M241(M241 is estimated close to 10 000 years old), and it doesn't test below E1b-V13, and so on.

On the other hand, if you tested at FTDNA, we can be able to determine what Clan you possibly hail from if you cluster or match with specific Clan members (s), since we now have a decent amount of Clan members who have tested at FTDNA. And also be able to predict the terminal SNP with a 100% certainty, depending on the haplotype.
Don't listen to "paulgill":P. He doesn't even seem to understand how STRs work.

olive picker
03-09-2016, 02:50 PM
If your goal is to get info about your autosomal DNA (and a very limited resolution of mtDNA), 23andMe is a good option. Most likely though, you will find out that autosomally you will plot pretty much the same as every (Gheg) Albanian, if not exact.

However, if your main goal is to find out about your paternal lineage (Y-DNA), 23andMe will not get you anywhere due to its very low and outdated resolution of Y-DNA haplogroups, especially since from what I understand, you don't know what Albanian Clan you belong to. For example, if you turn out as R1b-L23 (L51-), there is no way to know if you belong to the Albanian specific R1b-"Balkan Cluster". Similarly with other haplogroups, 23andMe doesn't test below J2b2-M241(M241 is estimated close to 10 000 years old), and it doesn't test below E1b-V13, and so on.

On the other hand, if you tested at FTDNA, we can be able to determine what Clan you possibly hail from if you cluster or match with specific Clan members (s), since we now have a decent amount of Clan members who have tested at FTDNA. And also be able to predict the terminal SNP with a 100% certainty, depending on the haplotype.


Yes this is my goal I suppose, and man, you can never be sure, you don't know what might hide in your family tree :D

I can always test ftDNA later anyway, when I become a plak with enough money to throw.

Paternal line nuk m'intereston shum, as nuk e di nga cilin fis jam (eshte komplikuar, family stuff :D). But I'll find out eventually, in fact really soon.

Dost
03-12-2016, 05:33 PM
In this link Elsie mentions that he thinks Keq Preka was a Bosnian Slav. I do not agree with this personally. Personally I think that Keq Preka was most likely Albanian. Anyway he says that Keq Preqa lived around the year 1520. In the Wikipedia link above it looks like Keq Preka lived more so around the year 1480. At least that is when he seems to have moved south from the Herzegovinian highlands. When do you think Keq Preka most likely migrated from the Herzegovinian highlands to North Albania and founded the ''New Hoti'' tribe?

https://books.google.ca/books?id=-EzWCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=Elsie+Hoti+Keq+Preka&source=bl&ots=-2J_vHwlc6&sig=BFUvTgFcd9S2ji6-8YsJA7O_6rM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAWoVChMIpfSGsO-SyQIVSJUeCh3eMw5X#v=onepage&q=Elsie%20Hoti%20Keq%20Preka&f=false

He isn't saying he was a Bosnian Slav. The legend has it they were descendants of unasimilated Latinized Illyrians who spilled south from the Herzegovinian highlands to Malesia where they met people who spoke the same language, a non latinized Illyrian language (Albanian). They were mutually understandable with one another. So basically Keq Preka was a Vlach. But the name itself is Albanian both 'Keq' and 'Preka'' .

Illyro-Vlach
03-12-2016, 06:47 PM
He isn't saying he was a Bosnian Slav. The legend has it they were descendants of unasimilated Latinized Illyrians who spilled south from the Herzegovinian highlands to Malesia where they met people who spoke the same language, a non latinized Illyrian language (Albanian). They were mutually understandable with one another. So basically Keq Preka was a Vlach. But the name itself is Albanian both 'Keq' and 'Preka'' .

This makes a lot of sense.

Skerdilaidas
03-14-2016, 12:13 AM
He isn't saying he was a Bosnian Slav. The legend has it they were descendants of unasimilated Latinized Illyrians who spilled south from the Herzegovinian highlands to Malesia where they met people who spoke the same language, a non latinized Illyrian language (Albanian). They were mutually understandable with one another. So basically Keq Preka was a Vlach. But the name itself is Albanian both 'Keq' and 'Preka'' .

How did you come to the conclusion that they were Vlah? There is nothing literally that suggests they were. They in fact match pretty nicely other Albo Clans which are J2b2. For example, Gjelaj of Traboini kit # 338980, new Hoti, matches Kryeziu, kit # E19761, and Krasniqi, kit # E8067, TMRCA 1000ybp give or take, plus they match others but more distantly. This alone proves that they were Albanian to begin with that wondered all they way up to Herzegovina and found their way back - their common ancestor must have lived in the old Dukagjini region since Kryeziu are originally from Lezha highlands.


Have a look at the tree that Trojet created:
http://i63.tinypic.com/2hgvl81.png

Dost
03-26-2016, 08:10 PM
How did you come to the conclusion that they were Vlah? There is nothing literally that suggests they were. They in fact match pretty nicely other Albo Clans which are J2b2. For example, Gjelaj of Traboini kit # 338980, new Hoti, matches Kryeziu, kit # E19761, and Krasniqi, kit # E8067, TMRCA around 1000 years, plus they match others but more distantly. This alone proves that they were Albanians that wondered all they way up to Herzegovina and found their way back - their common ancestor must have lived in the old Dukagjini region since Kryeziu are originally from Lezha highlands.


Have a look at the tree that Trojet created:
http://i63.tinypic.com/2hgvl81.png

I don't think they were Vlachs. I just made that up. lol. I confused them with the Piperi which I read were originally latin speaking from Herzegovina. They were latinized Illyrians most likely, while Albanian is non latinized. And if we go by what Noel Malcolm says, Vlachs are just indigenous latinized Thracians and Illyrians. And Albos lived right next to them. So basically Vlachs and Albos are descendant from the same people. The closest languages to Albanian are Vlach languages.

vettor
03-26-2016, 10:31 PM
I don't think they were Vlachs. I just made that up. lol. I confused them with the Piperi which I read were originally latin speaking from Herzegovina. They were latinized Illyrians most likely, while Albanian is non latinized. And if we go by what Noel Malcolm says, Vlachs are just indigenous latinized Thracians and Illyrians. And Albos lived right next to them. So basically Vlachs and Albos are descendant from the same people. The closest languages to Albanian are Vlach languages.

Vlach language is ancient Wallacian and not when they became latinized

Illyro-Vlach
03-27-2016, 12:04 AM
I don't think they were Vlachs. I just made that up. lol. I confused them with the Piperi which I read were originally latin speaking from Herzegovina. They were latinized Illyrians most likely, while Albanian is non latinized. And if we go by what Noel Malcolm says, Vlachs are just indigenous latinized Thracians and Illyrians. And Albos lived right next to them. So basically Vlachs and Albos are descendant from the same people. The closest languages to Albanian are Vlach languages.

Hercegovina and Montenegro would form a contact zone in which the indigenous proto-Vlachs and proto-Albanians had to sort themselves out. It's interesting to note the presence of Albanian type surnames among Croatians of Hercegovina and Serbs of Hercegovina and Montenegro. For example, in my county we have surnames like Kelava and Simlesha (Croatian Catholic). I have a female Serbian friend from Trebinje, Hercegovina with the surname Zotovic (son of Zot). These are places in the Dinaric Alps that were heavily Vlach prior to Slavicization. This then becomes a question of linguistics in which the difficult task of separating Romance speakers from proto-Albanian speakers in the contact zone would have to be accomplished.

BTW, where did you read that the Piperi came from Hercegovina? I know that the Piperi were Catholic up until the 17th century or so.

Skerdilaidas
03-27-2016, 09:11 PM
I don't think they were Vlachs. I just made that up. lol. I confused them with the Piperi which I read were originally latin speaking from Herzegovina. They were latinized Illyrians most likely, while Albanian is non latinized. And if we go by what Noel Malcolm says, Vlachs are just indigenous latinized Thracians and Illyrians. And Albos lived right next to them. So basically Vlachs and Albos are descendant from the same people. The closest languages to Albanian are Vlach languages.

Actually Piperi according to the oral tradition are related to Krasniqi and Hoti, however genetically it doesn't seem like they are (though we haven’t tested the E-V13 Krasniqi at FTDNA yet). They were not Latin speakers either, Albanian Clans like Hoti and Krasniqi say they were Albanian speaking, but threw their lot in with Montenegro. They do claim to have come from Herzegovina though. Perhaps they spoke both languages Albanian and Slavic from the get go, so mixed with Slavs early on and Slavicied, their E and I perfectly explains such scenario.

Latin speaking or Vlah were the Macura, Mataruga, Spanje and perhaps few other Clans too that I can't name at the moment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge

Language is a bit more complicated but Vlahs and Albanians to an extent saw each other as kin, which was also observed by Edith Durham (She mentions that Albanians and Vlahs greet each other as brothers), so yeah probably a good part of them that inhabited that region were locals that adopted Latin.

Interesting part is that most of their Clans that had some sort of relation with our Clans, and were similar in tradition, seem to be in majority E-V13, specifically Kuqi which were recorded to have been Catholic and Albanian by Marino Bolizze in 1614, with a minority of R1a and I2a (Kuqi majority E-V13 with a minority R1a on the old Kuqi side, Piperi E-V13 with I2a and Vasojevici E-V13). Macura for example that were Latin speaking surprisingly enough are I1 Z63, makes perfect sense though when you think about it. Goths and other marauding Germanic tribes that entered Balkans were mostly warriors and assimilated in the Latin speaking communities since they were the elite back then so to say, because most of the Vlahs that latter picked up pastoralism were indeed urban dwellers back then, hence their latinisation. Perhaps Dronbjaci were also Vlahs since they are P109, of Norman descent.


Kuqi recorded by Marino Bolizze in 1614:
Roman rite are:
490 houses -
Chuzzi Albanesi (Albanian Kuēi),
commanded by Lale Drecalou (Lale Drekalov) and Nico Raizcou (Niko Rajckov),
a very warlike and brave people,
1,500 men in arms;

Skerdilaidas
03-28-2016, 03:31 AM
Forgot to post the source where I got that info regarding Kuqi: http://www.albanianhistory.net/en/texts1000-1799/AH1614.html

Trojet
04-25-2016, 01:59 PM
New Member

Dibrri Tribe (Origins from Mirdite, Albania):
E-V13>CTS9320>Z38456 (not the same member as my maternal Y-DNA ;)):

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/results

J Man
04-29-2016, 02:48 AM
It is interesting to see that as of right now Y-DNA haplogroup J2b is the second most common haplogroup found among the Gheg Albanian tribesmen tested so far. R1b is not far behind though and of course these results can change in the future as more people are tested. I wonder which Y-DNA haplogroup overall is the second most common Y-DNA haplogroup among the Gheg Albanian tribes in general? J2b or R1b?

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/results

Trojet
04-29-2016, 12:10 PM
It is interesting to see that as of right now Y-DNA haplogroup J2b is the second most common haplogroup found among the Gheg Albanian tribesmen tested so far. R1b is not far behind though and of course these results can change in the future as more people are tested. I wonder which Y-DNA haplogroup overall is the second most common Y-DNA haplogroup among the Gheg Albanian tribes in general? J2b or R1b?

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/results

Yeah, that's tough to say.
And of course our project is not based on scientific samples either. However, our goal is not to determine which one is first or second most common :P

The Pericic study from 2005 of Kosovo Albanians showed R1b at 21%, J2b2 at 17%. I have been looking for STRs from this study, but can't find them yet. I wonder if anyone knows where to get them:
www.mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.expansion.html

J Man
05-01-2016, 10:03 PM
Yeah, that's tough to say.
And of course our project is not based on scientific samples either. However, our goal is not to determine which one is first or second most common :P

The Pericic study from 2005 of Kosovo Albanians showed R1b at 21%, J2b2 at 17%. I have been looking for STRs from this study, but can't find them yet. I wonder if anyone knows where to get them:
www.mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.expansion.html

Yes true. :)

olive picker
05-29-2016, 02:33 PM
My results just came. J2b2.

http://puu.sh/p99Bm/ab020b2b2b.png

Trojet
05-29-2016, 02:36 PM
My results just came. J2b2.

http://puu.sh/p99Bm/ab020b2b2b.png

Awesome, and congrats :)

You need to test at FTDNA sometime, bro (Y37):
https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?group=AlbanianBloodlines&code=B11086

We have many J2b2's in the project. Would be interesting to see what cluster you fall in, as well as get a much deeper classification.

Bigu007
06-04-2016, 06:26 PM
Happy to read about my country!

olive picker
06-17-2016, 04:03 PM
Happy to read about my country!

contribute, bro

go get yourself a kit, more Albanians need to test

Trojet
06-18-2016, 02:52 AM
Now that we have a decent amount of Albanian E1b-V13 samples in our project, I decided to make this tree to give an idea where Albanian V13 haplotypes thus far belong.
Even though we don't know yet where members of E1b-V13 "Cluster A" belong below V13, I decided to include them because this cluster seems quite common among Albanians:

http://i67.tinypic.com/vhry3s.png

olive picker
07-04-2016, 06:04 PM
Wow donations is up at $710.00 now. I am really excited for this project.

J Man
07-21-2016, 05:12 PM
Wow donations is up at $710.00 now. I am really excited for this project.

Do you know which tribe your direct paternal line ancestors come from?

Skerdilaidas
07-22-2016, 04:44 AM
Do you know which tribe your direct paternal line ancestors come from?

He is Krasniq from Deēan area.

J Man
07-22-2016, 08:11 PM
He is Krasniq from Deēan area.

Also I remember from discussions on this thread a little while back that the forum member who goes by the name of "ukaj" said that when it comes to the Hoti tribe there is the "new" Hoti and the"old" Hoti. Is this correct? Or is there just one Hoti tribe?

olive picker
07-23-2016, 02:57 PM
Also I remember from discussions on this thread a little while back that the forum member who goes by the name of "ukaj" said that when it comes to the Hoti tribe there is the "new" Hoti and the"old" Hoti. Is this correct? Or is there just one Hoti tribe?

yes there is old hoti and new hoti, but majority of hotis today descend from the new hoti

also it seems most of them are J2b2 which could confirm the legend that my clan (krasniqi) is a brother clan of (new) Hoti

would also be interesting to see what haplogroup the Nikaj are as well, since they are sort of like a branch of Krasniqi

J Man
07-23-2016, 03:48 PM
yes there is old hoti and new hoti, but majority of hotis today descend from the new hoti

also it seems most of them are J2b2 which could confirm the legend that my clan (krasniqi) is a brother clan of (new) Hoti

would also be interesting to see what haplogroup the Nikaj are as well, since they are sort of like a branch of Krasniqi

If you test with FTDNA someday then you will be able to tell pretty much exactly how closely related in time you are with the other Krasniqi J2b2 men who have tested there and the Hoti-Gjelaj Brotherhood J2b2 man since he also tested at FTDNA. The Y-STR comparisons there are quite useful for that.

Skerdilaidas
07-23-2016, 05:59 PM
We do have a Krasniqi and Hoti tested at ftdna, and they are related as I have previously mentioned. They are matching GD of 4 on 37 markers, so roughly TMRCA 1000ybp.

Yes Olive Picker, a Nikaj result would be really helpful to understand their relations, but I have no doubt that they would end up being J2b2. Three brothers were the founders of these Clans, Meksh Shiqi, Gec Shiqi and Nik Shiqi. The first two form majority of the Krasniqi of Tropoja and the last one, Nik Shiqi, the Nikaj Clan. What further solidifies this is that even today they don't intermarry, this includes Hoti as well.

J Man
07-23-2016, 06:13 PM
We do have a Krasniqi and Hoti tested at ftdna, and they are related as I have previously mentioned. They are matching GD of 4 on 37 markers, so roughly TMRCA 1000ybp.

Yes Olive Picker, a Nikaj result would be really helpful to understand their relations, but I have no doubt that they would end up to be J2b2. Three brothers were the founders of these Clans, Meksh Shiqi, Gec Shiqi and Nik Shiqi. The first two form majority of the Krasniqi of Tropoja and the last the one, Nik Shiqi, the Nikaj Clan. What further solidifies this is that even today they don't intermarry, this includes Hoti as well.

If those individuals at some point test out to 67 markers and still have a gd of 4 then yes they most likely have a MRCA around 1000ybp or so.

Skerdilaidas
07-23-2016, 06:28 PM
If those individuals at some point test out to 67 markers and still have a gd of 4 then yes they most likely have a MRCA around 1000ybp or so.

GD of 4 on 67 would bring them even closer, so I doubt that would hold if Hoti upgraded to 67 markers. Probably they would be GD of 5 or 6 on 67.

J Man
07-23-2016, 08:40 PM
GD of 4 on 67 would bring them even closer, so I doubt that would hold if Hoti upgraded to 67 markers. Probably they would be GD of 5 or 6 on 67.

Yeah true.

J Man
07-24-2016, 02:33 AM
yes there is old hoti and new hoti, but majority of hotis today descend from the new hoti

also it seems most of them are J2b2 which could confirm the legend that my clan (krasniqi) is a brother clan of (new) Hoti

would also be interesting to see what haplogroup the Nikaj are as well, since they are sort of like a branch of Krasniqi

This link that i am providing below here is about the ''New'' Hoti tribe correct?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)

olive picker
08-17-2016, 08:27 PM
Do you know which tribe your direct paternal line ancestors come from?

Made some new discoveries today and apparently I am not Krasniqi, but I am Shala (confirmed by talking to a relative). Interesting that we have a J2b2 Oroshi sample considering they're related by oral traditions. (We have a R1b Shala though).

I'm ordering a ftDNA kit today so we can dig deeper. I hope my kit will help the project.

Trojet
08-17-2016, 08:36 PM
Made some new discoveries today and apparently I am not Krasniqi, but I am Shala. Interesting that we have a J2b2 Oroshi sample considering they're related by oral traditions. (We have a R1b Shala though).

I'm ordering a ftDNA kit today so we can dig deeper. I hope my kit will help the project.

There is also a Kushnen J2b2 tribe member and is related to the Oroshi member like the oral tradition says. Regardless of your result, it absolutely will help the project :)

olive picker
08-17-2016, 08:49 PM
There is also a Kushnen J2b2 tribe member and is related to the Oroshi member like the oral tradition says. Regardless of your result, it absolutely will help the project :)

Really look forward to the results from Albania too where you managed to test some Shala, Oroshi men.

J Man
08-17-2016, 08:55 PM
Made some new discoveries today and apparently I am not Krasniqi, but I am Shala (confirmed by talking to a relative). Interesting that we have a J2b2 Oroshi sample considering they're related by oral traditions. (We have a R1b Shala though).

I'm ordering a ftDNA kit today so we can dig deeper. I hope my kit will help the project.

Interesting...So your direct paternal line ancestors definitely belonged to the Shala tribe?

olive picker
08-18-2016, 07:37 AM
Interesting...So your direct paternal line ancestors definitely belonged to the Shala tribe?

seems so, I'm going to ask what brotherhood I belong to too so we can get a better picture

Genti
08-19-2016, 03:39 PM
puna mbarė djema. shume jeni t'qart a. tung

Genti
12-14-2016, 04:01 PM
Isniq is majority Shala clan with a Thaēi minority.

Shala brotherhoods of Isniq: Niklekaj, Canaj and Prekaj. Families that descent from them: Balaj, Ahmetaj, Ahmetxhekaj, Hakaj, Haklaj, Januzaj, Tahirsylaj, Kukleci, Osėdautaj, Osmanaj, Tishukaj, Pajazitaj and Zukaj.

Thaēi: Bojkaj (according to the oral traditions of Shala, when they settled Isniq Bojkaj were there, and they were Orthodox).


Strellc is majority Krasniq. Unfortunately I don't have the details of families there.

Lista juaj I nderuar eshte e paplotė. Shala e Isniqit eshte nga fisi Gimaj dhe e perbere nga 3 "brotherhood": Nikleka, Canleka dhe Prekleka. Familjet qe rrjedhin jane me te shumta. E vendosa nje list me te gjate por jo te plote, sepse jane disa familje tjera…

1.Nga Nikleka rrjedhin keto familje:
Bajraktaraj (Gegnikaj), Rexhahmetaj (Leknikaj), Zukaj (Leknikaj), Boletini (Mujenikaj), Shatri (Mujenikaj), Maksutaj (Mujenikaj), Balaj (Mujenikaj), Mehaj (Mujenikaj), Imeraj (Mujenikaj), Bekaj (Mujenikaj), Haxhnikaj (Haxhnikaj), Hakaj (Haknikaj), Kukleci (Kurtnikaj), Tishukaj (Kurtnikaj), Pajazitaj (Kurtnikaj).

2.Nga Prekleka rrjedhin keto familje:
Sinanaj (Mustafprekaj), Mehmetaj (Mustafprekaj), Ahmetxhekaj (Mustafprekaj), Dervishaj (Mustafprekaj), Ahmetaj (Mustafprekaj)

3.Nga Vukleka ose Canleka (Vuka e merr emrin Can pasi kovertohet ne fenė islame dhe prishet me vllezerit) rrjedhin keto familje:
Hysvukaj (Hysvukaj), Haklaj (Demevukaj), Osdautaj (Demevukaj), Tahirsylaj (Demevukaj), Mulaj (Alivukaj), Januzaj (Alivukaj), Islamaj (Alivukaj), Bruqi (Alivukaj), Tafaj (Alivukaj), Osmomaj (Alivukaj)

Keto familje jetojnė kryesisht te perqendruar ne Decan, Peje, Istog, por ka qe jetojnė edhe nė pjese tjera tė Kosovės.

Skerdilaidas
12-14-2016, 07:35 PM
Flm Genti. Ashtu eshte per tre vllaznit, dhe familjet qe i kam vendos une aty i kam nxjerr prej "Behind the Stone Walls", e shkruar nga Backer. Pajtohem qe Gimaj jane por edhe ne kete aspekt kane tradita te perziera vet banoret e Isniqit, bazuar ne gojdhanat qe i ka regjistru Backer, Keq Tafa ka thone qe Isniqi jane Pecaj kurse Miftar Dauti Gimaj. A ka ndonje familje ne Lluke te Eperme qe jane me origjine nga Isniqi? Cka din me na thane per Neziraj te Llukes?


Je ti prej Isniqi dhe a je testu?

Genti
12-14-2016, 09:28 PM
Flm Genti. Ashtu eshte per tre vllaznit, dhe familjet qe i kam vendos une aty i kam nxjerr prej "Behind the Stone Walls", e shkruar nga Backer. Pajtohem qe Gimaj jane por edhe ne kete aspekt kane tradita te perziera vet banoret e Isniqit, bazuar ne gojdhanat qe i ka regjistru Backer, Keq Tafa ka thone qe Isniqi jane Pecaj kurse Miftar Dauti Gimaj. A ka ndonje familje ne Lluke te Eperme qe jane me origjine nga Isniqi? Cka din me na thane per Neziraj te Llukes?


Je ti prej Isniqi dhe a je testu?

po jam me preardhje nga isniqi dhe nuk kam bere testin. Eshte nje liber nga Rexhep Maksutaj nga Isniqi, "Isniqi ndėr shekuj, vėshtrim antropologjik,dhe kronikė ngjarjesh historike" Isniq through centuries, eshte ne shqip/anglisht. Ky liber sjell shume tė dhėna rreth 3 djemėve tė Lek Vukės, qe janė Nika, Preka dhe Vuka. Duhet ta kesh parasysh qe kur janė vendosur tre djemt e tij nė Isniq, nė at katund kanė jetuar Familja Bojku, Familja Blakaj, dhe Familja Cetaj. Cetajt janė me fis Shalė. Rexhep Maksutaj e cek ne liber qe Lek Vuka dhe tre djemt e tij janė Gimaj. Nofta Cetajt mund te jen Pecajt ??? Lidhur me Nezirajt tė Llukės se eperme, do ta pyes tim atin sepse jam i ri dhe nuk i njoh te gjihče kushėrit e mi, se jem shumė ...

Skerdilaidas
12-14-2016, 09:37 PM
po jam me preardhje nga isniqi dhe nuk kam bere testin. Eshte nje liber nga Rexhep Maksutaj nga Isniqi, "Isniqi ndėr shekuj, vėshtrim antropologjik,dhe kronikė ngjarjesh historike" Isniq through centuries, eshte ne shqip/anglisht. Ky liber sjell shume tė dhėna rreth 3 djemėve tė Lek Vukės, qe janė Nika, Preka dhe Vuka. Duhet ta kesh parasysh qe kur janė vendosur tre djemt e tij nė Isniq, nė at katund kanė jetuar Familja Bojku, Familja Blakaj, dhe Familja Cetaj. Cetajt janė me fis Shalė. Rexhep Maksutaj e cek ne liber qe Lek Vuka dhe tre djemt e tij janė Gimaj. Nofta Cetajt mund te jen Pecajt ??? Lidhur me Nezirajt tė Llukės se eperme, do ta pyes tim atin sepse jam i ri dhe nuk i njoh te gjihče kushėrit e mi, se jem shumė ...

Ok, do e lypi librin e tij. Edhe une jame po i kesaj mendje qe Cetajt mujn me kane Pecaj, por pa i testu nuk mujna me dite 100% per fat te keq. Dy Pecaj jane testu, ish ka mir ti mu testu e me pa si eshte gjendja. A t'ka shku menja anej?

Genti
12-14-2016, 09:48 PM
Ok, do e lypi librin e tij. Edhe une e jame po i kesaj mendje qe Cetajt mujn me kane Pecaj, por pa i testu nuk mujna me dite 100% per fat te keq. Dy Pecaj jane testu, ish ka mir ti mu testu e me pa si eshte gjendja. A t'ka shku menja anej?

Po por eshte shtrejt. Ka mundesi me perfitu nodnje zbritje permes projektit qe jeni duke zhvilluar ? Jam i interesuar me dit per veten dhe per familjen e nenes. Ke ndonje adres kontakti ose email ?

Genti
12-14-2016, 09:49 PM
Ok, do e lypi librin e tij. Edhe une e jame po i kesaj mendje qe Cetajt mujn me kane Pecaj, por pa i testu nuk mujna me dite 100% per fat te keq. Dy Pecaj jane testu, ish ka mir ti mu testu e me pa si eshte gjendja. A t'ka shku menja anej?

Po por eshte shtrejt. Ka mundesi me perfitu nodnje zbritje permes projektit qe jeni duke zhvilluar ? Jam i interesuar me dit per veten dhe per familjen e nenes. Ke ndonje adres kontakti ose email ?

Skerdilaidas
12-14-2016, 09:56 PM
Po por eshte shtrejt. Ka mundesi me perfitu nodnje zbritje permes projektit qe jeni duke zhvilluar ? Jam i interesuar me dit per veten dhe per familjen e nenes. Ke ndonje adres kontakti ose email ?

Po, shkrum ne email e folim [email protected] Ok Genti, mas lirti mu testu per Y37 e ke ne YSEQ (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=34&osCsid=d57300f892767f91c0b1257a85953c2a), Alpha Beta package kushton vetem $85 + $5 flat shipping fee qe i bjen total $90. Te njejtin test ne FTDNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?group=AlbanianBloodlines&code=B11086) mundesh me ble per $169 por qitash kan lirim per festa e mundesh me marr per $139, plus i ofrojne do kupona tash si ky, R207J49QER3D, qe e bjen cmimin $10 ma lire, pra i bjen total $129. Ndryshimi mes ktyne dy kompanive eshte vetem se ftnda e ofron databasen me pa se kan e ke kusheri aty, kurse yseq jo, por ne base eshte i njejti test - 37 STR markers.


Edit: e kam edhe nje kupon tjeter qe do e bjen cmimin $20 ma lire, pra total $119 (Kush eshte i interesun qoma nje emial, se nuk pe postoj ketu)

Genti
12-15-2016, 06:35 AM
Po, shkrum ne email e folim [email protected] Ok Genti, mas lirti mu testu per Y37 e ke ne YSEQ (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=34&osCsid=d57300f892767f91c0b1257a85953c2a), Alpha Beta package kushton vetem $85 + $5 flat shipping fee qe i bjen total $90. Te njejtin test ne FTDNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?group=AlbanianBloodlines&code=B11086) mundesh me ble per $169 por qitash kan lirim per festa e mundesh me marr per $139, plus i ofrojne do kupona tash si ky, R207J49QER3D, qe e bjen cmimin $10 ma lire, pra i bjen total $129. Ndryshimi mes ktyne dy kompanive eshte vetem se ftnda e ofron databasen me pa se kan e ke kusheri aty, kurse yseq jo, por ne base eshte i njejti test - 37 STR markers.


Edit: e kam edhe nje kupon tjeter qe do e bjen cmimin $20 ma lire, pra total $119 (Kush eshte i interesun qoma nje emial, se nuk pe postoj ketu)

Falimnderit. Do te shkruaj ne fund te javes sepse jam i nxanun me pune gjate javes. Flaimnderit per kuponet dhe pergezime per punen qe jeni duke bere !!

Trojet
02-19-2017, 08:15 PM
I serve with help in case when any R1a(R-M512) comes up. It's the matter of time and samples :)

We finally have an R1a haplotype at the Albanian Project. Anyone care to analyze it for possibly a deeper classification :P
It is ID/Kit M9069 here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KSmZNQYh6MYkcLMBTQUT3vRseKd450hbbUvBs_j0CkU/edit#gid=1736664007).

Artmar
02-21-2017, 01:51 PM
We finally have an R1a haplotype at the Albanian Project. Anyone care to analyze it for possibly a deeper classification :P
It is ID/Kit M9069 here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KSmZNQYh6MYkcLMBTQUT3vRseKd450hbbUvBs_j0CkU/edit#gid=1736664007).

Are you sure it's an Albanian guy? He has an M letter next to his kit number (what suggests testing done by DNA Ancestry & Family Origin, FTDNA's Middle Eastern associate) and his surname is quite widespread along the South-Western Asia, Middle-East and North-Africa.

IMHO, he most likely fits into Z93>Z94>L657>Y4>Y6 category, as suggested by his DYS19=15, DYS389I>13(=14), DYS458>15 (he has 17), DYS447>24(=25). It wasn't found in Europe so far.

All of this combined makes me think that M9069 is a Middle-Eastern lad who got to the project by mistake. Unless there is another explanation for that (like historical reasons). But why would he test with Middle Eastern associate of FTDNA?

Trojet
02-21-2017, 02:51 PM
Are you sure it's an Albanian guy? He has an M letter next to his kit number (what suggests testing done by DNA Ancestry & Family Origin, FTDNA's Middle Eastern associate) and his surname is quite widespread along the South-Western Asia, Middle-East and North-Africa.

IMHO, he most likely fits into Z93>Z94>L657>Y4>Y6 category, as suggested by his DYS19=15, DYS389I>13(=14), DYS458>15 (he has 17), DYS447>24(=25). It wasn't found in Europe so far.

All of this combined makes me think that M9069 is a Middle-Eastern lad who got to the project by mistake. Unless there is another explanation for that (like historical reasons). But why would he test with Middle Eastern associate of FTDNA?

Thanks for your input!

We got this haplotype from a person who was an administrator of the original (now inactive) Albanian FTDNA project. I noticed it too, and you are right the M indicates the testing was done by a lab from the Middle East that's affiliated with FTDNA. And it may be a (Middle Eastern) person who at the time happened to join the Albanian Project.

Having said that, although rare, the surname does exist among Albanians and hence the reason I thought it was an Albanian haplotype. I will check with the person who gave me this haplotype to see if he has any information regarding the origin. If he can't confirm he is of Albanian origin, I think we'll just take his result off.

Cinnamon orange
02-21-2017, 06:07 PM
J M241 is the new updated 23andMe listing for the male members of my immediate family.

Skerdilaidas
02-21-2017, 07:52 PM
J M241 is the new updated 23andMe listing for the male members of my immediate family.

You should test them at FTDNA.

Cinnamon orange
02-21-2017, 08:24 PM
You should test them at FTDNA.

My father only tested for me because my mother had passed away and I wanted to be able to phase my results. My other family members are all less interested in the whole testing/results/etc shebang than I am and would not be interested in big Y. I am sure it is not far off, as what we get with the updated 23andMe results.

Trojet
02-22-2017, 12:37 AM
My father only tested for me because my mother had passed away and I wanted to be able to phase my results. My other family members are all less interested in the whole testing/results/etc shebang than I am and would not be interested in big Y. I am sure it is not far off, as what we get with the updated 23andMe results.

23andMe uses the 2010 ISOGG nomenclature. For the US costumers they got away with the long hand nomenclature. J2b2* according to the said nomenclature corresponds to SNP J-M241. So all they did is change the nomenclature.
J-M241 (J2b2) mutation is really old, at about 10,000 years, so there is no way to know how closely people are related only on the assumption of being M241+

Anyways, it would be great if you can test a member of your Arbėresh male line at FTDNA for Y-DNA37 to see how it matches up with existing Albanian J-M241 subgroups. The other much cheaper option is YSEQ Alpha-Beta, which is the same as FTDNA's Y37, but for only $85: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=34&osCsid=36e969ca58d74c14a0c17745ca1e52da

Let me know if you ever do this. I would have to analyze the results, especially if you test at YSEQ.

Cinnamon orange
02-22-2017, 08:45 AM
23andMe uses the 2010 ISOGG nomenclature. For the US costumers they got away with the long hand nomenclature. J2b2* according to the said nomenclature corresponds to SNP J-M241. So all they did is change the nomenclature.
J-M241 (J2b2) mutation is really old, at about 10,000 years, so there is no way to know how closely people are related only on the assumption of being M241+

Anyways, it would be great if you can test a member of your Arbėresh male line at FTDNA for Y-DNA37 to see how it matches up with existing Albanian J-M241 subgroups. The other much cheaper option is YSEQ Alpha-Beta, which is the same as FTDNA's Y37, but for only $85: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=34&osCsid=36e969ca58d74c14a0c17745ca1e52da

Let me know if you ever do this. I would have to analyze the results, especially if you test at YSEQ.

Thanks, I will let you know. One of my brothers did do the genographic ages ago and he got M172 I believe, if he still has his acccount info and if they do updates, there may be something deeper.

Trojet
02-22-2017, 09:56 AM
Thanks, I will let you know. One of my brothers did do the genographic ages ago and he got M172 I believe, if he still has his acccount info and if they do updates, there may be something deeper.

Nice!
Yes, they will just say J-M172 even if he tested at FTDNA for J-M241 haplotypes. So STR marker analysis would be useful for a deeper classification.

The first Genographic version tested for 12 markers (Y12), but even with that I may be able to tell the more specific J-M241 subgroup.
So please ask him if he has his account info. He can join our project here (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about), or alternatively let me know his STR marker values.

Otherwise, consider the YSEQ option :P

Zanatis
03-26-2017, 12:07 PM
Nice thread guys. Read every single page of it.

I am interested to test myself too as I'm originally form one of the Northern Albanian clans.

Keep up the great work.

Trojet
03-26-2017, 01:06 PM
Nice thread guys. Read every single page of it.

I am interested to test myself too as I'm originally form one of the Northern Albanian clans.

Keep up the great work.

Hi Zanatis!

What Clan do you hail from? We may be able to have an idea about your Y-DNA based on your Clan ;)

Either way, it would be great for our project if you test.

Zanatis
03-26-2017, 06:05 PM
Hi Zanatis!

What Clan do you hail from? We may be able to have an idea about your Y-DNA based on your Clan ;)

Either way, it would be great for our project if you test.
I hail from Toplana, Dukagjin, one of the Malsor clans (not Dukagjinian proper just like at least half of the actual Dukagjinians).

You can't really know my ydna as nobody has been tested and Toplana is a more complicated case, being made up of several brotherhoods not necessarily related by blood but yet they formed brotherhoods and we dont marry among ourselves due to our ancestors becoming "blood-brothers" and godfathers to each others children. Even appearance wise there are still nowadays some differences among different brotherhoods, as the anas have Atlanto-Mediterranean influences, while others are known for blondism and more thickset, while we're generally dark haired and much taller.

My part of the clan arrived from Montenegro and found there anas (indigenous) clans. The complicated part is that we come from Vasojevici but are also part of Kelmendi (cant marry them either) and maintained a strong alliance with Hoti. Long story short, my ancestors came from Vasojevici, and his parents were part of Kelmendi and Hoti, but we don't know who was from where. Most probably the paternal side is Kelmendi and maternal is Hoti.

Another thing, due to being in blood feud with almost everyone as well as looking down on others, we married mainly Nikaj, Merturi and Dushmani, the rest are just part of hate stories lol

We're definitely not related to Shala as they occupied in great numbers today's Shala (inhabited earlier by some members of our clan), not related to Krasniqi, Thaci, Berisha, but we claim to have "given birth" to the Gashi although we're not really fund of them either (possibly due to religion change). Some early Gashi did return to Toplana from their current location in Tropoja though.

I see you're quite knowledgeable, so I welcome any info from you and other forum members who might know something I don't.

Trojet
03-26-2017, 06:59 PM
I hail from Toplana, Dukagjin, one of the Malsor clans (not Dukagjinian proper just like at least half of the actual Dukagjinians).

You can't really know my ydna as nobody has been tested and Toplana is a more complicated case, being made up of several brotherhoods not necessarily related by blood but yet they formed brotherhoods and we dont marry among ourselves due to our ancestors becoming "blood-brothers" and godfathers to each others children. Even appearance wise there are still nowadays some differences among different brotherhoods, as the anas have Atlanto-Mediterranean influences, while others are known for blondism and more thickset, while we're generally dark haired and much taller.

My part of the clan arrived from Montenegro and found there anas (indigenous) clans. The complicated part is that we come from Vasojevici but are also part of Kelmendi (cant marry them either) and maintained a strong alliance with Hoti. Long story short, my ancestors came from Vasojevici, and his parents were part of Kelmendi and Hoti, but we don't know who was from where. Most probably the paternal side is Kelmendi and maternal is Hoti.

Another thing, due to being in blood feud with almost everyone as well as looking down on others, we married mainly Nikaj, Merturi and Dushmani, the rest are just part of hate stories lol

We're definitely not related to Shala as they occupied in great numbers today's Shala (inhabited earlier by some members of our clan), not related to Krasniqi, Thaci, Berisha, but we claim to have "given birth" to the Gashi although we're not really fund of them either (possibly due to religion change). Some early Gashi did return to Toplana from their current location in Tropoja though.

I see you're quite knowledgeable, so I welcome any info from you and other forum members who might know something I don't.

Interesting... Thanks for this information.
Yeah, I don't think there is anyone tested from your tribal area, AFAIK. We actually have quite a few Gashi tribesmen tested in our project. (We believe their main branches). User Skerdilaidas is more knowledgeable when it comes to the tribes and their traditions, so he may be able to say more.

Skerdilaidas
03-26-2017, 08:30 PM
Hi Zanatis, welcome to Anthrogenica :)

Let me first say that I am really glad to see a Topllana clansmen participate in these ducussions! I have for some time searched to find a member that belongs to this Clan so we can test. Topllana is quite an interesting clan and old as well, probably one of the oldest in Dukagjin, and as you mentioned few other clans are traditionally connected to it. You're right that the situation can be complex when one studies these old clans because generally one finds few layers, non related, that dissolved and formed the clans we know today by becoming 'Blood Brothers', 'Brothers of the land' (vellezer trojesh) and also 'Kumari' etc. All of these fenomenons restrict intermarriages so it becomes impossible after few hundred years to figure out these relations because such details are forgotten and become murky over time. In some instances it assumed that they're blood related because they don't intermarry. To my understanding the only indegeneous/Anas population that lived there are found in Gjuraj today (who are Kelmend), correct me if am wrong, while the rest all descent from the Gabeti brother (who's name is not known).

Topllana, Shllak, Megulle and also Gashi according to traditions are related, and descent from four brothers that came from southern Montenegro. Edith Durham says that they came from Vasojevici tribal territory, basically were the Anas population there (older population/indegeneous) that got displaced when Vasojevici came from further north (they say Herzegovina along with Piperi, Hoti and Krasniqi etc).

Anywho, regarding their results, we don't have as of yet a Topllana, Shllak or Megulla result. Gashi however has tested quite a bit, and like other big clans is quite complex to understand: there are three main branches, non blood related, that have formed the Gashi we know today, and I believe only the branch known today as 'Luzha' are probably related to Topllana (they are the original and the old Gashi who got displaced from their original tribal lands in Tropoje by Krasniqi/Nikaj alliance and today are only to be found in the settlement of Luzha where also their branch takes the name from 'Luzha' - good part of them however were pushed into Kosova). I believe they are J2b2-PH1751, we don't have a confirmed tested 'Luzha' as of yet, but there are three such tests at Family Tree DNA, two from Drenica (Aēareve & Runik) and the other one we don't know where he is from, who are Gash (there are also two Gashi from 23andme who are J2b2 who possibly also belong to this cluster), so actually five J2b2 in total. The other two Gashi branches, Bardhet and Shipshaj, have also tested and are V13-L241.

Highly likely that you're J2b2-PH1751 if you don't belong to the Anas branches, if the traditions of their relation to Gashi turns out to be true. But of course without testing we can never know. It would be really beneficial to our project/cause if you test so we can confirm such traditions :)

Btw, which brotherhood/ branch of Topllana do you belong to?

Zanatis
03-27-2017, 08:56 AM
Hi Zanatis, welcome to Anthrogenica :)

Let me first say that I am really glad to see a Topllana clansmen participate in these ducussions! I have for some time searched to find a member that belongs to this Clan so we can test. Topllana is quite an interesting clan and old as well, probably one of the oldest in Dukagjin, and as you mentioned few other clans are traditionally connected to it. You're right that the situation can be complex when one studies these old clans because generally one finds few layers, non related, that dissolved and formed the clans we know today by becoming 'Blood Brothers', 'Brothers of the land' (vellezer trojesh) and also 'Kumari' etc. All of these fenomenons restrict intermarriages so it becomes impossible after few hundred years to figure out these relations because such details are forgotten and become murky over time. In some instances it assumed that they're blood related because they don't intermarry. To my understanding the only indegeneous/Anas population that lived there are found in Gjuraj today (who are Kelmend), correct me if am wrong, while the rest all descent from the Gabeti brother (who's name is not known).

Topllana, Shllak, Megulle and also Gashi according to traditions are related, and descent from four brothers that came from southern Montenegro. Edith Durham says that they came from Vasojevici tribal territory, basically were the Anas population there (older population/indegeneous) that got displaced when Vasojevici came from further north (they say Herzegovina along with Piperi, Hoti and Krasniqi etc).

Anywho, regarding their results, we don't have as of yet a Topllana, Shllak or Megulla result. Gashi however has tested quite a bit, and like other big clans is quite complex to understand: there are three main branches, non blood related, that have formed the Gashi we know today, and I believe only the branch known today as 'Luzha' are probably related to Topllana (they are the original and the old Gashi who got displaced from their original tribal lands in Tropoje by Krasniqi/Nikaj alliance and today are only to be found in the settlement of Luzha where also their branch takes the name from 'Luzha' - good part of them however were pushed into Kosova). I believe they are J2b2-PH1751, we don't have a confirmed tested 'Luzha' as of yet, but there are three such tests at Family Tree DNA, two from Drenica (Aēareve & Runik) and the other one we don't know where he is from, who are Gash (there are also two Gashi from 23andme who are J2b2 who possibly also belong to this cluster), so actually five J2b2 in total. The other two Gashi branches, Bardhet and Shipshaj, have also tested and are V13-L241.

Highly likely that you're J2b2-PH1751 if you don't belong to the Anas branches, if the traditions of their relation to Gashi turns out to be true. But of course without testing we can never know. It would be really beneficial to our project/cause if you test so we can confirm such traditions :)

Btw, which brotherhood/ branch of Topllana do you belong to?
Interesting! How come you have so much info? And I'm saying this because there are many details u mentioned that are not really stuff u read online (at least I thought so).

One correction though, its Toplana not Topllana, while some pronounce it Topjana (the ones who moved to Puka).

And you're very correct about the fact that some of us are said to have moved to Luzha and are Gashi. One of my best friends is the direct descendant of the Luzha branch so perhaps I can persuade him to get tested but I doubt he will be interested in spending $150 for something he knows little nor cares.

Since you mentioned Bardhaj of Gashi, I forgot to include that when I mentioned our connection to the Hoti, I meant specifically the Bardhaj of Triepshi (Kuci).

As you can see, it's so complicated because we have to rely on foreign authors who used old men back in the days to investigate and many words were definitely mistranslated.

My grandfather was aware of the differences in origin and all he could clearly state was the we come from Montenegro, related by blood specifically with the Bardhaj in Triepshi, and the descendants of the Bardhaj are to be found in Shllaku, Toplana, and later Gashi. In the same time it is claimed that Vaso (of the Vasojevici) was a part of the same family, but unlike us they got affected by religion while although we remained Catholic, it wasn't because of love for the Catholic faith but hatred for the Orthodox suppressors and called its clergy as effeminate and sneaky. Basically only the Kanun could help grow the virtues of real men.

We're also 100% the branch that settled in Koprati, Iballje, Puke.

So to summarize, hailing from Vasojevic (legend) in Montenegro (fact), possibly paternally Kelmendi (legend) and maternally anas Triepshi (legend) from Bardhaj, Triepshi, Kuci (I'll call it a fact), moved south and settled in Shllaku (existence of Bardhaj confirmed), Lekaj - Shala (Koprati, confirmed part of Bardhaj from Montenegro displaced by Shala later), Toplana (fact, and Bardhaj confirmed), Iballje (fact, settled in the neighbourhood of Koprati, same as the Koprati in Shala), then part of the clan moved and created the Gashi (legend) but yet the Bardhaj appear there again.

So to answer your question, I can only claim to be part of the Bardhaj as the rest is legends. U said that the Bardhet of Gashi are E-V13, just like some Triepshi (Trieshi) in Montenegro being E-V13 too, and since the Bardhaj of Gashi claim to be from Kuci, Montenegro without explaining the route they took, and most of the Kuci belonging to E-V13, I see the E-V13 as being the only logical option.

P.S. Another fact that proves the origin of Montenegro is our dress and dialect being like that of Malesia e Madhe and not Dukagjin, although recently there have been some influences in some tribes, on top of the Shkodra dialect by the ones living there.

P.S. Our legend seems quite similar to that of Lale Drekalovic being paternally Kelmendi and mother from a local of Kuci.

Trojet
03-27-2017, 12:19 PM
Interesting Zanatis.
At this point, I don't think we can say which haplogroup is more likely ;) Through Y-DNA we have found that some oral traditions and claims by Elsie and such, are just not true. It's also possible you will be R1b-BY611 since we have a Trieshi and a Kelmendi example tested as such.

Anyways, it would be great if both you and your friend from the Luzha branch tested, as we don't have many results from within northern Albania where many of these tribes originate.

Besides FTDNA (Y37 or Y67) (https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?group=AlbanianBloodlines&code=B11086), you may consider YSEQ Alpha-Beta (Y37) (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=34&osCsid=f98c409a8b80808536299aa47ab55e5a) or even cheaper YSEQ Alpha (Y18) (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=32)and join the Albanian Bloodlines Group at YSEQ for results interpretation. However, we prefer at least Y37 markers. If $ is an issue, I'm sure we can work something out ;) We just need people willing to test. For anything else, you may email me at: [email protected]

Skerdilaidas
03-27-2017, 01:36 PM
Interesting! How come you have so much info? And I'm saying this because there are many details u mentioned that are not really stuff u read online (at least I thought so).

One correction though, its Toplana not Topllana, while some pronounce it Topjana (the ones who moved to Puka).

And you're very correct about the fact that some of us are said to have moved to Luzha and are Gashi. One of my best friends is the direct descendant of the Luzha branch so perhaps I can persuade him to get tested but I doubt he will be interested in spending $150 for something he knows little nor cares.

Since you mentioned Bardhaj of Gashi, I forgot to include that when I mentioned our connection to the Hoti, I meant specifically the Bardhaj of Triepshi (Kuci).

As you can see, it's so complicated because we have to rely on foreign authors who used old men back in the days to investigate and many words were definitely mistranslated.

My grandfather was aware of the differences in origin and all he could clearly state was the we come from Montenegro, related by blood specifically with the Bardhaj in Triepshi, and the descendants of the Bardhaj are to be found in Shllaku, Toplana, and later Gashi. In the same time it is claimed that Vaso (of the Vasojevici) was a part of the same family, but unlike us they got affected by religion while although we remained Catholic, it wasn't because of love for the Catholic faith but hatred for the Orthodox suppressors and called its clergy as effeminate and sneaky. Basically only the Kanun could help grow the virtues of real men.

We're also 100% the branch that settled in Koprati, Iballje, Puke.

So to summarize, hailing from Vasojevic (legend) in Montenegro (fact), possibly paternally Kelmendi (legend) and maternally anas Triepshi (legend) from Bardhaj, Triepshi, Kuci (I'll call it a fact), moved south and settled in Shllaku (existence of Bardhaj confirmed), Lekaj - Shala (Koprati, confirmed part of Bardhaj from Montenegro displaced by Shala later), Toplana (fact, and Bardhaj confirmed), Iballje (fact, settled in the neighbourhood of Koprati, same as the Koprati in Shala), then part of the clan moved and created the Gashi (legend) but yet the Bardhaj appear there again.

So to answer your question, I can only claim to be part of the Bardhaj as the rest is legends. U said that the Bardhet of Gashi are E-V13, just like some Triepshi (Trieshi) in Montenegro being E-V13 too, and since the Bardhaj of Gashi claim to be from Kuci, Montenegro without explaining the route they took, and most of the Kuci belonging to E-V13, I see the E-V13 as being the only logical option.

P.S. Another fact that proves the origin of Montenegro is our dress and dialect being like that of Malesia e Madhe and not Dukagjin, although recently there have been some influences in some tribes, on top of the Shkodra dialect by the ones living there.

P.S. Our legend seems quite similar to that of Lale Drekalovic being paternally Kelmendi and mother from a local of Kuci.

Thank you! I have basically read most hisorical sources regarding our clans. The Luzha (http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topic=13.0) connection is explained in detial by Ibrahim K. Malaj on 'Tropoja ne Breza'.

It would be awesome if you can get him to test, and $ is not an issue as Trojet pointed out, we can work something out :)

I have also considered that version, perhaps Bardhaj are the branch that are related to you guys ever since I have read Gjon Karma's entry about Shllak (http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topic=385.0) but without testing bard to say because there is no such tradition among Bardhi, and unfortunately our V13 Trieshi example, who are Bankeq, supposed to be related to Hoti, have only tested at 23andme so can't say much at the moment. Very possible though that they might end up being L241 like Bardhet, however, we should keep in mind the other Gashi branch, the Shipshaj, who have a similar tradition. They too say that they came from Kuēi just like Bardhet and Toplana/Shllak/Megulle and have tested as L241as well, but are not closely related to Bardhet, in fact they are very distant (definitely not related in genealogical time frame to make that connection). One thing is certian V13-L241 is shaping up to be quite diverse among us (Mavriqi who originate in Shale have also tested as such and don't seem to be closely related to any of our examples so far). 'Bardhaj' is probably just a coincidence in all those clans to my opinion, you also have the Lumbardhi around Deēan today who are with origin from Shllak/Dushman, that got displaced by Dushmani. Interestingly enough they also say that they are related to Toplana/Gashi and therefore say are Gash in Kosove. Similar scenario with the Buzhala families that migrated to Kosova as well etc.

Kuēi however, Drekalovici included, are predominately V13 but are not L241 from what I have seen. They could certianly have originated from there but are most likely just like you said either related to Trieshi or were the indegeneous population there who got displaced. The only way to find that out is to test.

Contact Trojet or register at our forum and let's get it going ;)

Skerdilaidas
03-27-2017, 01:55 PM
Also forgot to mention that the reason why I lean more toward J2b2 is because there is a fella at 23andme, last name Shpati, from Megulle who has tested as such. Unfortunately he hasn't responded to me so I couldn't confirm if he is Megulle or Anas. The Anas in Megulle are mostly Kelmend to my understanding, so there is a slight possibility that he might be Anas with origin from Kelmend and related to the J2b2 Kelmendi (he has only tested at 23andme so we can't tell).

You as a local though might be able to find that out going by his last name?

Zanatis
03-27-2017, 03:50 PM
Thank you! I have basically read most hisorical sources regarding our clans. The Luzha (http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topic=13.0) connection is explained in detial by Ibrahim K. Malaj on 'Tropoja ne Breza'.

It would be awesome if you can get him to test, and $ is not an issue as Trojet pointed out, we can work something out :)

I have also considered that version, perhaps Bardhaj are the branch that are related to you guys ever since I have read Gjon Karma's entry about Shllak (http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topic=385.0) but without testing bard to say because there is no such tradition among Bardhi, and unfortunately our V13 Trieshi example, who are Bankeq, supposed to be related to Hoti, have only tested at 23andme so can't say much at the moment. Very possible though that they might end up being L241 like Bardhet, however, we should keep in mind the other Gashi branch, the Shipshaj, who have a similar tradition. They too say that they came from Kuēi just like Bardhet and Toplana/Shllak/Megulle and have tested as L241as well, but are not closely related to Bardhet, in fact they are very distant (definitely not related in genealogical time frame to make that connection). One thing is certian V13-L241 is shaping up to be quite diverse among us (Mavriqi who originate in Shale have also tested as such and don't seem to be closely related to any of our examples so far). 'Bardhaj' is probably just a coincidence in all those clans to my opinion, you also have the Lumbardhi around Deēan today who are with origin from Shllak/Dushman, that got displaced by Dushmani. Interestingly enough they also say that they are related to Toplana/Gashi and therefore say are Gash in Kosove. Similar scenario with the Buzhala families that migrated to Kosova as well etc.

Kuēi however, Drekalovici included, are predominately V13 but are not L241 from what I have seen. They could certianly have originated from there but are most likely just like you said either related to Trieshi or were the indegeneous population there who got displaced. The only way to find that out is to test.

Contact Trojet or register at our forum and let's get it going ;)

I'll contact my friend from Luzha and let you know. In the meantime, let me know which tribes you would like to test from North Albania and I know from almost every single tribe, including the ones in Montenegro.

U misunderstood me about the Bardhaj and Triepshi. We are from Bardhaj and not related to Triepshi and New Hoti as they are newcomers. Bardhaj of Triepshi is recorded by the Ottoman defter at least 50 years before the estimated arrival of the newcomers from Herzegovina.

The Bardhaj legend cannot be a coincidence for us (the Koprati/Toplana that later moved to Iballja too and until nowadays live in Koprati) but could be a coincidence when it comes to Bardhet of Gashi. I never heard about the Megulla being related to us except for the internet articles though. I know a hill/mountain in Greece named by the Arvanites as Magulla and it supposedly means female breast, but I read it long time ago and can't remember the source of the book.

I will ask about the Shpati as I know someone from there too.

What about the Kelmendi tested as J2b2. Is he actually from Vermosh or from Kosovo and traces back his origin to Vermosh and Broje?

P.s. I will contact you guys about testing and thanks for the support.

Skerdilaidas
03-27-2017, 04:42 PM
We would like to test all of them so please let everyone you know out there about our project :)

I see, I did misunderstand you bit. Is there a 'Bardhaj' brotherhood in Toplane? The Trieshi settlement 'Bardhi' could very well be the source of the Bardhi brotherhood in Gashi as well for all we know. A Qota (Chota) family who were Anas there has tested at 23andme and he too is V13, but unfortunately he is unresponsive as well. It would be nice if we could get these Trieshi families tested at YSEQ or FTDNA. The rest of the old Hoti and old Trieshi might end up being in majority R1b (BY611), Nikprelaj have tested as such and so did a family from Montenegro who traces their ancestry to Vuksanlekaj, and they seem to be closely related.


Only part of Megulla I think and they seem to be closely related to Plani as well, but probably through the Anas population of both settlemnts.

Kelmendi J2b2 is from Vermosh and lives in US actually.

Zanatis
03-27-2017, 06:27 PM
We would like to test all of them so please let everyone you know out there about our project :)

I see, I did misunderstand you bit. Is there a 'Bardhaj' brotherhood in Toplane?
Yes, my sub-branch the Koprati is from Bardhaj, I told you. But Bardhaj seems to be the origin geographically, not some family called Bardhaj. Who knows?! The Koprati displaced from Shala were also from Bardhaj, Montenegro.

Just one more thing, the different clans of Toplana are not all related to each other as it's just a toponymy.


The Trieshi settlement 'Bardhi' could very well be the source of the Bardhi brotherhood in Gashi as well for all we know. A Qota (Chota) family who were Anas there has tested at 23andme and he too is V13, but unfortunately he is unresponsive as well. It would be nice if we could get these Trieshi families tested at YSEQ or FTDNA. The rest of the old Hoti and old Trieshi might end up being in majority R1b (BY611), Nikprelaj have tested as such and so did a family from Montenegro who traces their ancestry to Vuksanlekaj, and they seem to be closely related.


Only part of Megulla I think and they seem to be closely related to Plani as well, but probably through the Anas population of both settlemnts.

Kelmendi J2b2 is from Vermosh and lives in US actually.
So apparently the Nikprelaj are anas and not related to the New Hoti. Interesting. I know 2 Nikprelaj's but since we know the haplogroup its no use to test them I guess.

And we'll never know about the Kelmendi since there are so many theories and as it appears its made up of different clans. Just like in our case, Kuci, Piperi, Hoti, Triepshi are involved. Damn legends.

I saw the Kalaj in the Albanian Bloodlines where they belonged to an old R1b branch. Can it be verified as a Balkan branch at least or its too general? Im asking because I've heard they came from Shkodra after a Turkish official escaped and was wanted by the Ottomans and Vuksan Gela gave him protection and land. Their original last name was Kalay and even nowadays most of their members are too swarthy. It's normal to have Mediterraneans once in a while, but they're too Eastern and in very high numbers. Are they really Gruda?

Skerdilaidas
03-27-2017, 06:57 PM
I see, thanks for clarifying it! From what I have read there are 10 fis within Toplana now days, which ones are Koprat?

It would be good to test another Nikprelaj, woundn't hurt. Kelmendi is predominately V13 but there are also few branches who have tested as R1b-BY611 (Muriqi) and J2b2 (Vukel?). Kelmendi like other clans absorbed some of the old families there, specifically Muriqi. We haven't figured it out yet where the source of the J2b2 is, but we think it's probably from Vukel - the Anas absorbed there.

I believe they are, they are from Podgorica and actually their branch of R1b (P311) is a western branch. Latins? Possibly. Gruda is another composite tribe that will be diverse on ydna, few non related families consolidated around their Bajrak.

TuaMan
03-28-2017, 12:39 AM
Ordered my y-67 way back near the end of December, should be getting the results within the next two weeks (finally). I need to go back and read through this thread all the way from the beginning, there's a lot I need to catch up on. So we should have another finely resolved Hoti J2b2 lineage soon enough.


I saw the Kalaj in the Albanian Bloodlines where they belonged to an old R1b branch. Can it be verified as a Balkan branch at least or its too general? Im asking because I've heard they came from Shkodra after a Turkish official escaped and was wanted by the Ottomans and Vuksan Gela gave him protection and land. Their original last name was Kalay and even nowadays most of their members are too swarthy. It's normal to have Mediterraneans once in a while, but they're too Eastern and in very high numbers. Are they really Gruda?

I just checked the project and noticed the Kalaj R1b, that's crazy I never noticed that before. One of my best friend's is Kalaj, and while his branch of the family is from a village called Grud e Re near Shkodra, they only settled there from another village called Pikal in Gruda itself (my maternal great-grandmother being one of them Pikal Kalajs). I also read that story on another forum about them originating from a Turk that Vuksa Gela became friends with when he was in prison in Anatolia; evidently when he returned to Gruda he brought the Turk with him and gave him land in Pikal. I'm sure Trojet or Skerdilaidas will be able to speak more as to phylogeny of that Kalaj R1B, according to Wikipedia R1B is 16% in Turkey so who knows.

Trojet
03-28-2017, 01:46 AM
Ordered my y-67 way back near the end of December, should be getting the results within the next two weeks (finally). I need to go back and read through this thread all the way from the beginning, there's a lot I need to catch up on. So we should have another finely resolved Hoti J2b2 lineage soon enough.

Yeah, we're still waiting on your results bro :)
If you look at this J2b2a1-L283 phylogenetic tree below, so far some Albanians are under Z1296>PH1751 (including many tribes), some Z1297>Y23094 (Shkreli, part of Kelmendi), and some Bosnians/Croatians I have seen are under CTS3617>PH1602.
You will be our third Hoti example tested at FTDNA, but none have tested any SNPs, including one from Kryeziu tribe who seems to be close to Hoti J2b2. While I'm 100% certain based on STRs that the Hoti J2b2 cluster is Z1296+ (like most Albanians we have, TMRCA 4200 yrs), I'm not certain where this cluster belongs downstream, due to lack of SNP testing from anyone in this cluster. But I think PH1751 and Y23094 can be ruled out, so that leaves out somewhere below Z1295 (perhaps Y21877). So to find the terminal position, it would be great if one of you Hoti guys test some SNPs (maybe you :P). The best option is obviously the BigY, but it's quite expensive at $575, sometimes on sale for $450. The other much cheaper option is the YSEQ J2b-M12 SNP Panel for $88 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=45234&osCsid=fa0715581e1ed5cbd09973e7137f1e24), which will test all these SNPs, but will not uncover new ones like the BigY along with Age Estimates, etc.

http://i63.tinypic.com/14j2cs3.jpg

Trojet
03-28-2017, 02:22 AM
I just checked the project and noticed the Kalaj R1b, that's crazy I never noticed that before. One of my best friend's is Kalaj, and while his branch of the family is from a village called Grud e Re near Shkodra, they only settled there from another village called Pikal in Gruda itself (my maternal great-grandmother being one of them Pikal Kalajs). I also read that story on another forum about them originating from a Turk that Vuksa Gela became friends with when he was in prison in Anatolia; evidently when he returned to Gruda he brought the Turk with him and gave him land in Pikal. I'm sure Trojet or Skerdilaidas will be able to speak more as to phylogeny of that Kalaj R1B, according to Wikipedia R1B is 16% in Turkey so who knows.

Our Gruda-Kalaj example is tested as R1b-P311 through 23andMe. This R1b branch is actually more characteristic for Western Europe, Italy, etc. To really have a better idea about his R1b haplotype, he would have to test at FTDNA or YSEQ, as there is many subclades below R1b-P311,L151 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L151/) which 23andMe doesn't test.

Illyro-Vlach
03-28-2017, 02:49 AM
So we should have another finely resolved Hoti J2b2 lineage soon enough.

Looking forward to this.

Skerdilaidas
03-28-2017, 03:19 PM
We're also 100% the branch that settled in Koprati, Iballje, Puke.

So to summarize, hailing from Vasojevic (legend) in Montenegro (fact), possibly paternally Kelmendi (legend) and maternally anas Triepshi (legend) from Bardhaj, Triepshi, Kuci (I'll call it a fact), moved south and settled in Shllaku (existence of Bardhaj confirmed), Lekaj - Shala (Koprati, confirmed part of Bardhaj from Montenegro displaced by Shala later), Toplana (fact, and Bardhaj confirmed), Iballje (fact, settled in the neighbourhood of Koprati, same as the Koprati in Shala), then part of the clan moved and created the Gashi (legend) but yet the Bardhaj appear there again.

I apologize for quoting you again on the same post but I forgot to ask you regarding Lekaj - Shale you have mentioned. You're confident that they are not Shale, and related to Pecaj, Lotaj and Gimaj or am I misunderstanding you?

Zanatis
03-28-2017, 04:14 PM
I apologize for quoting you again on the same post but I forgot to ask you regarding Lekaj - Shale you have mentioned. You're confident that they are not Shale, and related to Pecaj, Lotaj and Gimaj or am I misunderstanding you?
Hey no worries man. Yes Im confident we're not Shala :D Their arrival forced us to leave and we've been always enemies with all of them, both Shala and anas.

Skerdilaidas
03-28-2017, 04:35 PM
Hey no worries man. Yes Im confident we're not Shala :D Their arrival forced us to leave and we've been always enemies with all of them, both Shala and anas.

Thanks man! It's a bit confusing for me as an outsider to really understand the brotherhoods over there in detail without the local help, so I am really grateful that you're able to chip in :) Reason why I want to be clear is because there are 'Lekaj' in Toplane and also in Shale today. I guess only the Lekaj in Toplane are Koprat and shouldn't be mistaken with the Lekaj in Shale.

We are planing on testing Lekaj and Lotaj in Shale but unfortunately we don't know when it will happen. Shala, at least so far Pecaj and Gimaj, have tested and are R1b (PH7563). We currently have a Shala from Kosove who has tested as J2b2 (PH1751) and is closely related to our Gashi examples, though. If the other two major brotherhoods turn out to be R1b, then it would interesting to see if he perhaps is part of those displaced families (maybe Koprat, if Toplana ends up being J2b2?).

Zanatis
03-30-2017, 05:48 AM
Thanks man! It's a bit confusing for me as an outsider to really understand the brotherhoods over there in detail without the local help, so I am really grateful that you're able to chip in :) Reason why I want to be clear is because there are 'Lekaj' in Toplane and also in Shale today. I guess only the Lekaj in Toplane are Koprat and shouldn't be mistaken with the Lekaj in Shale.

We are planing on testing Lekaj and Lotaj in Shale but unfortunately we don't know when it will happen. Shala, at least so far Pecaj and Gimaj, have tested and are R1b (PH7563). We currently have a Shala from Kosove who has tested as J2b2 (PH1751) and is closely related to our Gashi examples, though. If the other two major brotherhoods turn out to be R1b, then it would interesting to see if he perhaps is part of those displaced families (maybe Koprat, if Toplana ends up being J2b2?).

I don't know if the Lekaj are related at all. When you read the name Koprati u can easily assume its the same family, but Lekaj could be from anywhere in Albania, ex-Yugoslavia (Lekovic), Greece (Lekkas), if u know what I mean :D

Are these Pecaj and Gimaj straight from Dukagjini or from Kosova as well?

PS sorry I cant reply to ur private message as i havent posted 10 times yet. We'll speak through emails.

Skerdilaidas
03-30-2017, 12:36 PM
I don't know if the Lekaj are related at all. When you read the name Koprati u can easily assume its the same family, but Lekaj could be from anywhere in Albania, ex-Yugoslavia (Lekovic), Greece (Lekkas), if u know what I mean :D

Are these Pecaj and Gimaj straight from Dukagjini or from Kosova as well?

PS sorry I cant reply to ur private message as i havent posted 10 times yet. We'll speak through emails.

Yes of course, I should know - I belong to such a brotherhood but of course from a different clan :) Used to be quite the popular patronym back in the day.

Two are from Dukagjin and one from Kosova (Shala e Bajgores).

TuaMan
03-31-2017, 01:53 AM
Just went through this entire thread, really great stuff. I'm going to try to add my own thoughts, questions, and theories regarding Albanian ethnogenesis. Bear with me.

Something that I have been interested in for a long time, and I think this kind of genetic testing will ultimately resolve once and for all - what exactly is the genetic relationship between Montenegrin and (Gheg) Albanian people. According to this thread, http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26949-montenegro-dna , the Montenegrin Y-DNA breaks down as follows:

38% - haplotype I2a
27% - haplotype E1b1b
9.4% - haplotype R1b
9.4% - haplotype R1a
5.7% - haplotype J2a
4.7% - haplotype J2b,
2.1 % - haplotype H1 ( Roma Gypsies)
3.7 % - haplotype J1

Probably no surprise that I2a is the dominant lineage and peaks in western Montenegro, which corresponds to Old Hercegovina. It seems pretty certain that I2a is essentially the Yugoslav marker. As Illyro-Vlach pointed out in a previous post, Hercegovina/Southern Dalmatia was essentially the proto-Serb and proto-Croat heartland (Pagania, Zahumlje, Travunje, Duklja, etc.). According to Wikipedia, I2a has something like a 65% frequency in Hercegovina as a whole, so the South Slavic connection is plain as day (include R1a as well).

What's interesting is that according to that thread there is a geographic segregation with Mont y-DNA, I2a in Old Hercegovina but E1b1b, R1b, J2b2 all more prevalent in eastern Montenegro, presumably in the Brda/Prokletije region near Albania. These three lineages seem to essentially be the foundation lineages of Gheg Albanians (and I think of Albanians as a whole). I would love to see more future testing in both northern Albania and Montenegro so we can determine how closely related these Montenegrin and Albanian branches are (I would especially like to see if Montenegrin J2b2 is more closely related to the Albanian clade than the Bosnian/Croatian one that Trojet mentioned previously). My tentative hypothesis is this - I2a and R1a are the original Slavic Montenegrins of the Hercegovinian/Dalmatian heartland, that gradually expanded south and east and assimilated the pre-Slavic E1b1b, R1b, J2b2 tribes of the mountains, who I think may have been proto-Albanians or their very near relatives.

Only more DNA testing will tell, but I honestly would be pretty surprised if Brda Montenegrins (Kuci, Vasojevici, Piperi, Bjelopavlici, etc) don't share some deep but tangible ancestry with Gheg Albanians that other Montenegrins or South Slavs won't share. This is not to say that I think they are just "Albanized Slavs," because it seems like the territory of Montenegro as a whole was pretty much firmly established as a Slavic society c. 1000 (i.e., the Principality of Duklja). But I think in between the arrival of the first Slavs in the region around 650 and the crystallization of Duklja as a state in 1000, there could have been a quasi-Albanian or even Vlach element further north than exists today.

My two cents anyway.

Skerdilaidas
03-31-2017, 02:25 AM
Nice post TuaMan! You're right that the 'Brda' clans along with Sanxhaklija certianly seem to be related to us, especially Piperi and Bjelopavlici. Piperi for example belong to my cluster R1b-CTS9219>BY611 and are certianly closely related to me and other Albanian clan who belong to this cluster, like part of Kelmendi, Morina, Thaēi etc. Their distance to me MRCA 1000ybp give or take (not still sure though if all Piperi belong to this line?).

Bjelopavlici in other hand are V13-Z16988 and have a tradition to have migrated there from 'Dukagjin', certian White Paul (Palbardhi/Bjelopavl) was the founder of the clan. Kelmendi, majority, also belong to this subclade but they don't seem to be that closely related to them judging by their STRs. However, we are extremely under tested so most likely in the near future they will have genealogical matches.

Vasojevici belong to a special branch of V13 (PH1246) which is quite rare and hasn't been found among us yet.

Kuēi seem to be in majority V13, though I would like to see them do some SNP testing. Guessing on their STR markers I wouldn't be surprised if they end up being V13-Z16988 like Kelmendi and Bjelopavlici, or perhaps Z17264+. They however are still quite connected to us, part of this Clan is still Albanian today regardless where they end up genetically.

Bane
03-31-2017, 05:16 AM
38% - haplotype I2a

Small correction - this should be I1 + I2a (not I2a only).

Bane
03-31-2017, 05:23 AM
Kuēi seem to be in majority V13, though I would like to see them do some SNP testing. Guessing on their STR markers I wouldn't be surprised if they end up being V13-Z16988 like Kelmendi and Bjelopavlici, or perhaps Z17264+.

One member of Kuci with STR values which are typical for the tribe had already been tested for CTS9320. He came out negative which was surprise for me too.
Otherwise, as soon as V13 SNP pack is ready it will be ordered for another Kuci member. Funding has been completed successfully.

Skerdilaidas
03-31-2017, 01:24 PM
One member of Kuci with STR values which are typical for the tribe had already been tested for CTS9320. He came out negative which was surprise for me too.
Otherwise, as soon as V13 SNP pack is ready it will be ordered for another Kuci member. Funding has been completed successfully.

Thanks Bane! Is he one of the samples that has tested up to 37 markers, btw, and where did they test if you don't mind me asking? My next best guess would be they are somewhere under S2979.

J Man
03-31-2017, 04:51 PM
Just went through this entire thread, really great stuff. I'm going to try to add my own thoughts, questions, and theories regarding Albanian ethnogenesis. Bear with me.

Something that I have been interested in for a long time, and I think this kind of genetic testing will ultimately resolve once and for all - what exactly is the genetic relationship between Montenegrin and (Gheg) Albanian people. According to this thread, http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26949-montenegro-dna , the Montenegrin Y-DNA breaks down as follows:

38% - haplotype I2a
27% - haplotype E1b1b
9.4% - haplotype R1b
9.4% - haplotype R1a
5.7% - haplotype J2a
4.7% - haplotype J2b,
2.1 % - haplotype H1 ( Roma Gypsies)
3.7 % - haplotype J1

Probably no surprise that I2a is the dominant lineage and peaks in western Montenegro, which corresponds to Old Hercegovina. It seems pretty certain that I2a is essentially the Yugoslav marker. As Illyro-Vlach pointed out in a previous post, Hercegovina/Southern Dalmatia was essentially the proto-Serb and proto-Croat heartland (Pagania, Zahumlje, Travunje, Duklja, etc.). According to Wikipedia, I2a has something like a 65% frequency in Hercegovina as a whole, so the South Slavic connection is plain as day (include R1a as well).

What's interesting is that according to that thread there is a geographic segregation with Mont y-DNA, I2a in Old Hercegovina but E1b1b, R1b, J2b2 all more prevalent in eastern Montenegro, presumably in the Brda/Prokletije region near Albania. These three lineages seem to essentially be the foundation lineages of Gheg Albanians (and I think of Albanians as a whole). I would love to see more future testing in both northern Albania and Montenegro so we can determine how closely related these Montenegrin and Albanian branches are (I would especially like to see if Montenegrin J2b2 is more closely related to the Albanian clade than the Bosnian/Croatian one that Trojet mentioned previously). My tentative hypothesis is this - I2a and R1a are the original Slavic Montenegrins of the Hercegovinian/Dalmatian heartland, that gradually expanded south and east and assimilated the pre-Slavic E1b1b, R1b, J2b2 tribes of the mountains, who I think may have been proto-Albanians or their very near relatives.

Only more DNA testing will tell, but I honestly would be pretty surprised if Brda Montenegrins (Kuci, Vasojevici, Piperi, Bjelopavlici, etc) don't share some deep but tangible ancestry with Gheg Albanians that other Montenegrins or South Slavs won't share. This is not to say that I think they are just "Albanized Slavs," because it seems like the territory of Montenegro as a whole was pretty much firmly established as a Slavic society c. 1000 (i.e., the Principality of Duklja). But I think in between the arrival of the first Slavs in the region around 650 and the crystallization of Duklja as a state in 1000, there could have been a quasi-Albanian or even Vlach element further north than exists today.

My two cents anyway.

It is interesting to note that 5 members of the Pješivci tribe of Montenegro have tested so far and all 5 of them are J2a-M92 and are closely related haplotypes. Pješivci are neighbours of Bjelopavlici.

Bane
03-31-2017, 07:37 PM
Thanks Bane! Is he one of the samples that has tested up to 37 markers, btw, and where did they test if you don't mind me asking? My next best guess would be they are somewhere under S2979.

The one which was negative for CTS9320 was tested only for that SNP at YSEQ (sponsored by coadmin of FTDNA CTS9320 project). He does not have 37 markers tested. His surname is Redzovic and you can check his known STR values here (http://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=E&lang=lat). I'm not sure where he did the STR test.
Another guy also has less number of STRs tested, but admin of the CTS9320 project decided to sponsor Y-DNA37 at FTDNA and this is already paid and pending for the lab. The V13 SNP pack will be ordered for this person.

Otherwise, what distinguishes Kuci from all the other E-V13 is their DYS388=13 value.

Skerdilaidas
03-31-2017, 09:54 PM
Also Bane, not related to this topic but just curious to know, do you happen to know if Mugoša, Crnci and Lužani from Piper have tested?

Bane
04-01-2017, 08:31 PM
Also Bane, not related to this topic but just curious to know, do you happen to know if Mugoša, Crnci and Lužani from Piper have tested?

I've done a small research and could not find any results which would be of the people from the Piperi branches you mentioned.
Otherwise, there are a few results of the men which seem to originate from Piperi but it is my understanding they do not belong to Mugoša, Crnci or Lužani (or it is not known if they do). These were R-Z2103, I-CTS10228 and R-Z280.

Skerdilaidas
04-03-2017, 12:27 AM
I have looked a bit into it too and it seems a 'Lutovac' has tested as R1a who according Elderjanovic are from Bratonozic? Lužani I think tested as I2a, not sure which family though (going by what Elderjanovic says Crnci should be I2a as well since he says they are basically the same family, the older population of that region, while Bjelopavlici and Piperi are intruders who most likely expanded out of North Albania). The rest seem to be R1b-BY611 - 2 Stanic, 1 Rabrenovic, and a Ljumovic tested at 23andme as R1b1b2a who most certianly belongs to this cluster. Ljumovic lived among Crnci but actually are Piper, they moved into their territory, to my understanding.

Skerdilaidas
04-03-2017, 12:52 AM
I am also interested to see what the Mugoša branch will end up being since they seem to have migrated there from North Albania as well, specifically from Kastrati tribal territory.

Tįltos
04-03-2017, 03:58 AM
I just discovered my mother and brother recently received a new match that lists Hoti tribe. Their Y DNA is J-M172; this is at FTDNA. My mom and I at 23andme also have matches that are Albanian. I remember some are anonymous though, and I had only found them when Countries of Ancestry was still in place.

Some of you have read my thread in the J1 section of the forum and saw that my mother's direct paternal line ended up belonging to a haplogroup that is not typical of Arberesh or Albanians.

Skerdilaidas
04-17-2017, 09:36 PM
The one which was negative for CTS9320 was tested only for that SNP at YSEQ (sponsored by coadmin of FTDNA CTS9320 project). He does not have 37 markers tested. His surname is Redzovic and you can check his known STR values here (http://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=E&lang=lat). I'm not sure where he did the STR test.
Another guy also has less number of STRs tested, but admin of the CTS9320 project decided to sponsor Y-DNA37 at FTDNA and this is already paid and pending for the lab. The V13 SNP pack will be ordered for this person.

Otherwise, what distinguishes Kuci from all the other E-V13 is their DYS388=13 value.

Bane, does this Kuči sample that has been sponsored by the CTS9320 admin belong to Mrnjavcevic or Drekalovic brotherhood, and do you happen to know where he is from?

Bane
04-18-2017, 07:10 PM
Bane, does this Kuči sample that has been sponsored by the CTS9320 admin belong to Mrnjavcevic or Drekalovic brotherhood, and do you happen to know where he is from?

I have no information to which brotherhood he belongs.
As all the other Kuči he can trace his ancestors in the eastern part of Montenegro. It seams to me you are knowledgable about these issues but just in case, Kuči is the region northeast of Podgorica all the way to the territory of Vasojevici. Unfortunately, I have no specific information where from exactly inside this region are his ancestors from.

Skerdilaidas
04-19-2017, 01:03 AM
Zanatis, when are you pulling the trigger, my brother? ;) Common man, we need you result!

Skerdilaidas
04-25-2017, 03:18 AM
I have no information to which brotherhood he belongs.
As all the other Kuči he can trace his ancestors in the eastern part of Montenegro. It seams to me you are knowledgable about these issues but just in case, Kuči is the region northeast of Podgorica all the way to the territory of Vasojevici. Unfortunately, I have no specific information where from exactly inside this region are his ancestors from.

Reason I asked Bane is because from what I have seen there are two unrelated families with the same last name like this fella that has tested in Kuē. One family are Mrnjavcevic while the others are Nuculevic/Nuculaj from Koje who are actually with origins from Kastrat. Not sure if you're aware, but there are traditions that the ancestral father of Kastrati was supposedly related to Drekalovici, which complicates things as you can see. Unfortunately we don't have a V13 Kastrati tested at ftdna yet to rule out that possibility, so it would be nice if we could somehow find out where is this fella from and if he is from Mrnjavcevic branch or Koje.

Illyro-Vlach
04-27-2017, 12:31 AM
Reason I asked Bane is because from what I have seen there are two unrelated families with the same last name like this fella that has tested in Kuē. One family are Mrnjavcevic while the others are Nuculevic/Nuculaj from Koje who are actually with origins from Kastrat. Not sure if you're aware, but there are traditions that the ancestral father of Kastrati was supposedly related to Drekalovici, which complicates things as you can see. Unfortunately we don't have a V13 Kastrati tested at ftdna yet to rule out that possibility, so it would be nice if we could somehow find out where is this fella from and if he is from Mrnjavcevic branch or Koje.

How are the Mrnjavcevic treated in Albanian tribal structure? As a brotherhood? If so, belonging to which tribe?

JerryS.
04-27-2017, 01:53 AM
I don't know how to get my haplogroups from me autosomal DNA from Ancestry.com but it is suspected that I have some Albanian on my Italian side.

Skerdilaidas
04-27-2017, 05:26 PM
How are the Mrnjavcevic treated in Albanian tribal structure? As a brotherhood? If so, belonging to which tribe?

All of Kuči are treat as an offshoot of Berisha, no distincion made between brotherhoods. They are known as 'Berisha e Kuqe' (Red Berisha) while the rest of Berisha are known as 'Berisha e Bardhe' (White Berisha). Not sure where and how such tradition came to be but interestingly enough similar tradition also exists in Kuē. Mark Miljanov for example speaks of it but of course the roles are reversed, he says Berisha are an offshoot of Kuči.

Now of course we know Kuči is a large tribe and as complex as any other large tribe in the region, there are few independent clans/brotherhoods within their tribal realm. The largest of course are Drekalovici followed by Mrnjavcevici (who in fact are a composite tribe, merged with the older population there, and all are known as 'stari Kuēi'), then you have Fundina, Koja (Koča) and Triesh (Zatrijebač). Most seem to be complex and composite tribes as well except Drekalovici and to an extent part of 'Mrnjavcevici' who are related to them. Berisha in other hand are just as large but more compact as far as we can see except few families in Kosove that joined their ranks.

What puzzles me the most is their geographical location, Berisha's tribal lands are in Puke and they have no tradition of migrating there from somwhere else and are known among us to be the oldest clan. In other hand Kuči, Drekalovici and Mrnjavcevic, are quite far from them but they do have traditions of migration and they seem to mention Shkodra, North Albania. Did they in fact migrate from further south? It's anyone's guess right about now. I guess in the near future once our database grows we will have a better picture, genetically speaking, but also of course cultural connections could have formed such a bond in the past as well, so we shouldn't rule out such a possibility.

Kelmendasi
04-27-2017, 05:39 PM
Which brotherhood of Kuci is Luhari from?

Skerdilaidas
04-27-2017, 06:13 PM
Which brotherhood of Kuci is Luhari from?

Fundina, as we have listed one of our examples.

Trojet
04-27-2017, 10:33 PM
I don't know how to get my haplogroups from me autosomal DNA from Ancestry.com but it is suspected that I have some Albanian on my Italian side.

By "some Albanian on my Italian side" I guess you mean your direct paternal line.
Anyways, if you want you may send your AncestryDNA raw data at: [email protected] and I can check if I can extract any Y-DNA haplogroup data.

JerryS.
04-27-2017, 11:37 PM
By "some Albanian on my Italian side" I guess you mean your direct paternal line.
Anyways, if you want you may send your AncestryDNA raw data at: [email protected] and I can check if I can extract any Y-DNA haplogroup data.

will do! maybe you can make sense of my raw data. ive used the same data and have gotten different percentages all over the board....

JerryS.
04-27-2017, 11:41 PM
Trojet, e-mail sent with zipped file attached.

I've used the GEDmatch models as well as the FTDNA model.

Trojet
04-27-2017, 11:55 PM
Trojet, e-mail sent with zipped file attached.

I've used the GEDmatch models as well as the FTDNA model.

Received :)
According to your AncestryDNA raw data, your Y-DNA haplogroup is I1-L22>P109
This HG does exist at small amounts among Albanians, but it also exists in Italy and may have nothing to do with Albanians/Arbėresh. Perhaps you should test at FTDNA to see how you match.

JerryS.
04-28-2017, 12:31 AM
Received :)
According to your AncestryDNA raw data, your Y-DNA haplogroup is I1-L22>P109
This HG does exist at small amounts among Albanians, but it also exists in Italy and may have nothing to do with Albanians/Arbėresh. Perhaps you should test at FTDNA to see how you match.

I know you speak the truth. some of my Italian relatives were from San Nicola dell'Alto, Crotone, Calabria; a town settled by Albanians fleeing the Ottoman Empire (Turks).

you're fantastic. I cannot make heads or tales of any of this regarding the real science of DNA....

JerryS.
04-28-2017, 12:39 AM
Trojet, if there is anything else you can tell me about my DNA data, good bad and the ugly, please let me know via e-mail. my story is not a happy one and there is not a lot I know of my family..... most of what I know from my father's side is from the last year. can you tell my my Mt haplogroup or maternal line?

also, what does the >P109 mean?

JerryS.
04-28-2017, 01:51 AM
Received :)
According to your AncestryDNA raw data, your Y-DNA haplogroup is I1-L22>P109
This HG does exist at small amounts among Albanians, but it also exists in Italy and may have nothing to do with Albanians/Arbėresh. Perhaps you should test at FTDNA to see how you match.

I e-mailed you my GEDmatch kit number with a request...

Trojet
04-28-2017, 01:52 AM
Trojet, if there is anything else you can tell me about my DNA data, good bad and the ugly, please let me know via e-mail. my story is not a happy one and there is not a lot I know of my family..... most of what I know from my father's side is from the last year. can you tell my my Mt haplogroup or maternal line?

also, what does the >P109 mean?

It means P109 is a subclade of I1-L22. So I1-P109 is your most recently known SNP. AFAIK, it's mostly found in Scandinavia. https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-P109/
As I said, it does exist among Albanians, but at really small amounts, and your Y-DNA may have nothing to do with Albanians. It's hard to say without further testing (FTDNA).

I'm​ not sure if mtDNA data can be extracted from AncestryDNA. As far as Autosomal goes, I don't do much analysis in that regard. However, you may try www.dna.land and www.gedmatch.com if you haven't done so already.

JerryS.
04-28-2017, 03:45 AM
I opened my raw DNA data and I have no idea how you got my haplogroup. how did you do it?

Trojet
04-28-2017, 02:34 PM
I opened my raw DNA data and I have no idea how you got my haplogroup. how did you do it?

It's not a simple process, but here: www.geneticgenealogist.net/2016/01/how-to-get-ydna-haplogroup-from.html?m=1

JerryS.
04-29-2017, 12:36 AM
[QUOTE=Trojet;229585]It's not a simple process, but here: [url]www.geneticgenealogist.net/2016/01/how

I just realized how futile this is.... my Italian ancestry is on my father's side, the majority from his mom, only a little from his dad. plus, this being an autosomal extraction, its accuracy is suspect I understand.

all that said, you have been a great guy taking the time to help me, Trojet. Thank you.

Tįltos
05-01-2017, 05:33 AM
I know you speak the truth. some of my Italian relatives were from San Nicola dell'Alto, Crotone, Calabria; a town settled by Albanians fleeing the Ottoman Empire (Turks).

you're fantastic. I cannot make heads or tales of any of this regarding the real science of DNA....

Welcome to the forum JerryS.! San Nicola dell'Alto is one of the original Arbėresh villages. It was given to General Reres' troops that helped suppress a rebellion in Naples. But yes all villages eventually were populated by Albanians fleeing the Ottoman Empire. Check your private messages.

Dibran
05-01-2017, 03:38 PM
Will it help to make an estimated guess of what clade you belong to? I am still a ways away until I recorded all my Snps into the list, but so far its only at R-M417 that 23 has me at. Additionally, do I have to list the SNPs I am negative for as well? Or will this not affect the guesstimated result if negative SNPs are excluded?

Trojet
05-03-2017, 12:28 PM
Will it help to make an estimated guess of what clade you belong to? I am still a ways away until I recorded all my Snps into the list, but so far its only at R-M417 that 23 has me at. Additionally, do I have to list the SNPs I am negative for as well? Or will this not affect the guesstimated result if negative SNPs are excluded?

Hi Dibran. Not sure if you have tested elsewhere besides 23andMe, which tests a very limited amount of SNPs anyways, so it's possible it didn't test anything​ below R-M417 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M417/) (as you can see there is many many more SNPs/subclades below it). If you are tested positive or negative for a Y-SNP, that would not be an estimation, but rather a confirmation.

In my honest opinion, 23andMe, LivingDNA, Ancestry, are not very useful for Y-DNA, as they test a very limited amount of Y-SNPs. Currently some of the best in this regard are FTDNA, YSEQ, FullGenomes.

Dibran
05-04-2017, 12:08 AM
Hi Dibran. Not sure if you have tested elsewhere besides 23andMe, which tests a very limited amount of SNPs anyways, so it's possible it didn't test anything​ below R-M417 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M417/) (as you can see there is many many more SNPs/subclades below it). If you are tested positive or negative for a Y-SNP, that would not be an estimation, but rather a confirmation.

In my honest opinion, 23andMe, LivingDNA, Ancestry, are not very useful for Y-DNA, as they test a very limited amount of Y-SNPs. Currently some of the best in this regard are FTDNA, YSEQ, FullGenomes.

I eventually plan to use ftdna for paternal lineage testing. Just cant afford to drop the dough on it. Not yet at least.

Kelmendasi
05-04-2017, 05:47 AM
I eventually plan to use ftdna for paternal lineage testing. Just cant afford to drop the dough on it. Not yet at least.
Use Yseq. It's far cheaper and basically the same thing as Ftdna except you won't get matches

Zanatis
05-10-2017, 07:44 AM
Hey guys, like i said i'm willing to test myself soon but not economically ready yet. Summer is coming and the weekends are murdering my wallet :P

Anyway, with regards to White Berisha from Puka I have cousins from there and they come from the lowlands originally, namely Mamurrasi.

As for the Red Kuci, my clan is also known by everyone around as "The Reds" or "The Red ones". Nothing to do with hair colour though, more of an indication of "bloodthirstiness" lol

Perhaps the Whites are the more peaceful ones or the parent tribe while the red are the troublesome ones that either left or were displaced as punishment. Another clue could be like with the Slavs I think, where colours are used to indicate North, South, West, or East.

TuaMan
06-20-2017, 02:39 AM
I'm going through my 23andme and finding all my Hotjan matches, so far it looks like every brotherhood belongs to J2b2 in our tribe, we have to be one of the most homogeneous of all tribes when it comes to Y-DNA. Trojet, I know I owe you a YSEQ soon so you can further narrow down my sub-clade, trust me it's on my radar :)

But this still raises some questions in my mind regarding some of the old oral legends regarding our foundation as a tribe. Clearly the old myth of Hoti, Krasniqi, Vasojevic, and Piperi all descending from one common origin isn't true (except for the Hoti-Krasniqi connection to an extent). So I'm wondering how this legend of Hoti and some of the other highland tribes coming from "Bosnia" at some point in the distant past came about, since paternally anyway we don't seem to have any recent connection to that area, if anything I think we would have come from some place further south in Albania at some point.

Also, Kelmendasi are you seriously J1-P58? That would have to be a first among Gheg Albanians. Are you from Kelmendi itself (Vermosh, Vukel, Nikci, Selca, Broja, Tamara?) or Kosovo?

Skerdilaidas
06-20-2017, 04:18 AM
Only Geg Lazeri's fis among Hoti seem to be compact, not all Hoti. Hoti as a clan existed even in 13th century before Lazer Keēi came with his son Gega and settled among them. There are few other families from Montenegro, Sandxhak and actually Mirdite as well who claim to have migrated from Hoti or are fis Hot that don't belong to your cluster or halpogroup, TuaMan: Preljevic (http://www.poreklo.rs/2015/12/27/poreklo-prezimena-selo-vesenice-tutin/) from Sandxhak are J2b2-Z1296>PH2967, and so are Beci from Mirdite who also claim to be Hot (though not closely related to Preljevic); Marashi (http://www.poreklo.rs/2013/04/17/poreklo-prezimena-selo-mahala-podgorica/) from Podgorica with origins from Vuksanlekaj, who are R1b-BY611(probably closely related to Nikprelaj from Triesh); Bogicevic (http://www.poreklo.rs/2012/03/08/poreklo-prezimena-rakocevic/) from Moraca who are R1b-L2 and also if I am not mistaken Bubic from Bjelopavlic who are I1-P109.

Hard to say now who were the old Hoti but any of those families could be I guess? Or perhaps they were heterogenous formed from few independent clans that lived in harmony, which later gradually got displaced as Geg Lazeri's clan grew.

Tįltos
06-20-2017, 05:14 AM
Use Yseq. It's far cheaper and basically the same thing as Ftdna except you won't get matches

Hello Kelmendasi! Your direct paternal line is Albanian? Have you tested your Y DNA anymore than J1-P58 by chance? My maternal grandfather was Arbereshe, and I was able to get a cousin to test from that line. His 37 marker gave an unexpected result of J1!

I then ordered the J1-SNP Pack at FTDNA and he is also J1-P58. His final result in that test is J1-ZS1711.

Trojet
06-20-2017, 02:31 PM
Trojet, I know I owe you a YSEQ soon so you can further narrow down my sub-clade, trust me it's on my radar :)

Whenever you're ready to test at YSEQ, I recommend going straight for Y21878: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=45117&osCsid=e0995ed9cf8b2089734c74d07fb5cae1

Or you can do the whole J2b-M12 SNP Pack here (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=45234). It's your choice. However, I'm pretty confident you will be positive for Y21878 (aka Y21877 on the tree below), and this "shortcut" will save you some cash ;)
In addition to a Krasniq and a Kryezi tribe member, there is also two Thaēi J2b2 members who might be Y21878 also, or at the very least Z1295+
See my previous comment below and the tree:


You will be our third Hoti example tested at FTDNA, but none have tested any SNPs, including one from Kryeziu tribe who is close to Hoti J2b2. While I'm 100% certain based on STRs that the Hoti J2b2 cluster is Z1296+ (like most Albanians we have, TMRCA 4200 yrs), I'm not certain where this cluster belongs downstream, due to lack of SNP testing from anyone in this cluster. But I think PH2967>PH1751 (many tribes here), and Y23094 (Kelmend, Shkrel) can be ruled out, so that leaves out somewhere below Z1295 (perhaps Y21877).
http://i63.tinypic.com/14j2cs3.jpg

Kelmendasi
06-20-2017, 03:54 PM
Hello Kelmendasi! Your direct paternal line is Albanian? Have you tested your Y DNA anymore than J1-P58 by chance? My maternal grandfather was Arbereshe, and I was able to get a cousin to test from that line. His 37 marker gave an unexpected result of J1!

I then ordered the J1-SNP Pack at FTDNA and he is also J1-P58. His final result in that test is J1-ZS1711.
Hi. Yh all of my ancestors are Albanian and all from the north of Albania, also autosomally I am 100% Balkan/SE euro. I have tested at Yseq and Y37 but my markers seem to be weird and they make me more distant than other J1 people that I match to the point that I don't get any Y37 matches. I have a 97% of being part of an unsupported clade and 3% being J1-ZS241>S12192 which has a TMRCA of 1550ybp which places it during 467AD or during the Roman empire which could of displaced my ancestor into Albania or Montenegro, but I believe that my weird str values could push the TMRCA back even further as it seems distant from others. I have posted more about it on the thread about J1-S12192

Kelmendasi
06-20-2017, 03:58 PM
I'm going through my 23andme and finding all my Hotjan matches, so far it looks like every brotherhood belongs to J2b2 in our tribe, we have to be one of the most homogeneous of all tribes when it comes to Y-DNA. Trojet, I know I owe you a YSEQ soon so you can further narrow down my sub-clade, trust me it's on my radar :)

But this still raises some questions in my mind regarding some of the old oral legends regarding our foundation as a tribe. Clearly the old myth of Hoti, Krasniqi, Vasojevic, and Piperi all descending from one common origin isn't true (except for the Hoti-Krasniqi connection to an extent). So I'm wondering how this legend of Hoti and some of the other highland tribes coming from "Bosnia" at some point in the distant past came about, since paternally anyway we don't seem to have any recent connection to that area, if anything I think we would have come from some place further south in Albania at some point.

Also, Kelmendasi are you seriously J1-P58? That would have to be a first among Gheg Albanians. Are you from Kelmendi itself (Vermosh, Vukel, Nikci, Selca, Broja, Tamara?) or Kosovo?
Hi, yh I am J1-P58. My family come from Vermosh/Selce but with origin they aren't Kelmend as they supposedly joined Kelmendi ages ago and we are supposedly Albanians from Montenegro with origin. I wouldn't be the first as J1 does reach up to over 3% in Ghegs especially those from Macedonia but I am the first from the bloodlines project

Skerdilaidas
06-20-2017, 04:56 PM
Hi, yh I am J1-P58. My family come from Vermosh/Selce but with origin they aren't Kelmend as they supposedly joined Kelmendi ages ago and we are supposedly Albanians from Montenegro with origin. I wouldn't be the first as J1 does reach up to over 3% in Ghegs especially those from Macedonia but I am the first from the bloodlines project

Kelmendasi, to my understanding you can only trace your ancestry few generations back and they all lived in Lezhe, or the surrounding region. It's only recently that your uncle told you that you might be with origins from Montenegro, or at least from what I have gathered during our conversations. Your family never lived in Selce or Vermosh, you did however say that you guys joined the Vushaj branch in Lezhe and took their last name there, now even confirmed genetically since Vushaj are V13-CTS9320>Z16988. It would be best if you're consistent with your story and just state what you know to avoid confusion - it's not shameful if you can't trace your ancestry that distantly or know your place of origin, many of us can't either hence why we participate in such projects.

Kelmendasi
06-20-2017, 07:49 PM
Kelmendasi, to my understanding you can only trace your ancestry few generations back and they all lived in Lezhe, or the surrounding region. It's only recently that your uncle told you that you might be with origins from Montenegro, or at least from what I have gathered during our conversations. Your family never lived in Selce or Vermosh, you did however say that you guys joined the Vushaj branch in Lezhe and took their last name there, now even confirmed genetically since Vushaj are V13-CTS9320>Z16988. It would be best if you're consistent with your story and just state what you know to avoid confusion - it's not shameful if you can't trace your ancestry that distantly or know your place of origin, many of us can't either hence why we participate in such projects.
Yh I agree bro. I said that we moved to Lezhe first for some time but then we moved to Kelmendi where we then joined them. Yh it's best to keep it short so that I avoid confusion :)

JerryS.
06-20-2017, 09:31 PM
I don't know if it matters at this point, but it is rumored that my Italian side (from Calabria) had some partial immigration from Albania. some GEDmatch calculators reflect Balkan states for me.

from the various GEDmatch calculators.

Using 4 populations approximation:
Belarusian + German_South + German_South + Tuscan @ 1.321496
Albanian + English_South + Irish + Irish @ 1.338617
English_South + German_South + Greek + Icelandic @ 1.376707
Albanian + Dutch_South + English_South + Norwegian @ 1.377633
British_Isles + C_Italian + CEU30 + Lithuanian @ 0.773760
British_Isles + C_Italian + Cornwall + Lithuanian @ 0.831269

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
73.4% North_German + 26.6% Italian @ 1.56
80.1% English + 19.9% Albanian @ 2.68
85.1% English + 14.9% Greek @ 2.52
71.2% English + 28.8% Macedonian @ 2.37
79% North_German + 21% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.23
72.3% Irish + 27.7% Albanian @ 1.29
68.5% English + 31.5% Montenegrian @ 2.63
85.1% English + 14.9% Greek @ 2.52
89.7% Mixed_Germanic + 10.3% Sicilian @ 1.61
87.8% Orcadian + 12.2% S_Italian_Sicilian @ 1.74
87.4% Orkney + 12.6% Sicilian @ 1.64
87% Orkney + 13% S_Italian_Sicilian @ 1.78

Using 3 populations approximation:
50% Dutch +25% Italian +25% Scottish @ 2.552180

Tįltos
06-21-2017, 05:01 AM
Hi. Yh all of my ancestors are Albanian and all from the north of Albania, also autosomally I am 100% Balkan/SE euro. I have tested at Yseq and Y37 but my markers seem to be weird and they make me more distant than other J1 people that I match to the point that I don't get any Y37 matches. I have a 97% of being part of an unsupported clade and 3% being J1-ZS241>S12192 which has a TMRCA of 1550ybp which places it during 467AD or during the Roman empire which could of displaced my ancestor into Albania or Montenegro, but I believe that my weird str values could push the TMRCA back even further as it seems distant from others. I have posted more about it on the thread about J1-S12192
Thanks, but a few more questions. You tested at YSEQ who are you comparing your STRs to as you stated they don't provide matching. Are you just looking up in the FTDNA projects or did you join Y Search?

My cousin has no matches at 37 markers either. He has one match to an Arabic man at 25 marker, and in the bigger picture not so much of a match. That man's terminal SNP is listed as J-ZS7213. My cousin is negative for it because upstream SNPs that are in the pack he was negative for. He has lots of 12 marker matches that are Arabic, and Jewish.

You mentioned that 3% of Ghegs are J1 where did you see that? Do you know if they have a specific subclade of J1 and/or are there any STRs to compare to?

Skerdilaidas
06-21-2017, 05:16 AM
There are couple among Ghegs and Tosks here (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n4/suppinfo/ejhg2015138s1.html), though non seem to belong to Kelmendasi's cluster.

vettor
06-21-2017, 06:13 AM
There are couple among Ghegs and Tosks here (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n4/suppinfo/ejhg2015138s1.html), though non seem to belong to Kelmendasi's cluster.

How can you tell by genetics which is a gheg and which is a Tosk ?

Skerdilaidas
06-21-2017, 02:54 PM
How can you tell by genetics which is a gheg and which is a Tosk ?

I am the Geg messiah bro, plus the eagle eye helps.

TuaMan
06-21-2017, 11:18 PM
Only Geg Lazeri's fis among Hoti seem to be compact, not all Hoti.

Geg Lazri's fis IS pretty much all of today's Hoti though. The families that make-up Hoti are:

Camaj
Dedvukaj
Dushaj
Gjelaj
Gjonaj
Gojcaj
Juncaj (Cunmulaj, the bajraktars of Hoti, are Juncaj by origin)
Lajcaj
Nicaj

Gjonaj, Gjelaj, Gojcaj, and Juncaj are all in the project and are J2b2, I match with Camaj, Dedvukaj, Dushaj on 23andMe and they're all J2b2, so right now that just leaves Lajcaj and Nicaj unaccounted for. Lajcaj comes from Drume, the same village as Gjonaj and Juncaj, so I would bet that they're J2b2 as well. Now granted, "J2b2" is a very broad group so we may not fall into the exact same sub-clade, only time and further testing will tell about that, but I was just initially struck by the consistency seen thus far, hence my original comment.

I'll need to talk to my dad about this to see what more info he knows, but again I'm pretty sure all the major families today claim descent from Geg Lazri. It is true that there are "Old Hoti" who lived there before him and his father migrated there, but I'm not sure if they make up any distinct, separate families from the rest of us anymore, I think they may have been absorbed as sub-branches into one of the other families and took on their name and identity. Again, further testing of any sub-branches of the aforementioned families that have a tradition of being "anas"/indigenous would be great.

And as far as the Sandzak, Podgorica, and other folks who claim descent from Hoti but aren't J2b2 or our subclade, honestly I'm not sure how much stock we can place in their traditions about them being related to us at this point, we've seen how muddy oral traditions can be when people not directly from a given tribe claim an affiliation with it. After the Kelmendi got decimated by their wars with the Turks in the beginning of the 18th century, the Hoti became the most prominent tribe in all Malesi, so it would be natural that some families would try to claim an affiliation for protection or influence, etc, without actually being blood relatives to their "kin."

On a side note, it's interesting to me that I never really hear of Kosovars claiming origin from Hoti or Gruda, given that those two are pretty large tribes. If they claim a Malsor tribe it's always Kelmendi, Shkreli or Kastrati - Trieshi and Koja e Kucit are small so I wouldn't expect them to have much of a diaspora. From Dukagjini it seems like they claim mostly Shala, I don't think I ever hear anyone mention Shoshi, Toplana, Shllaku, etc. From Tropoja they get mostly Krasniqi, Gashi, Thaci, and Bytyci, and from Puka I think just Berisha really. I'm sure you know the Kosovar tribal breakdown better than me so I'll let you elaborate further if you want.

Our tribes, the families within them, how they're all related (or not) to one another, it's dizzying trying to keep up with it at times. Big respect to you and Trojet for doing what you guys do, I for sure appreciate it.

Skerdilaidas
06-22-2017, 04:23 AM
I agree TuaMan, Hoti generally speaking seems pretty compact so far since Geg Lazeri's descendants are majority of the clan today - only the Mirdita clans like Spaēi, Kushneni and Oroshi rival it to an extent (all three clans tested and are related as tradition has it). You might have a point regarding Hoti families in Montenegro and Sanxhak, I am not too familiar with local traditions there and how those settlements formed. Marashi though seem to be closely related to Nikprelaj judging by the few markers they have tested (they seem to share some distinct mutations on few markers) who probably are old Triesh, and also because they state that they migrated out of Vuksanlekaj, which is pretty specific to my opinion - plus from what I have gathered Geg's clan only expanded and settled Vuksanlekaj 5 or 6 generations ago, according to Ndue Bacaj around 1750s. Maybe when these Anas got displaced? Perhaps some families from old Triesh and old Hoti are related, and might actually also be the case why the tradition exists that Hoti and Trieshi are related, brother clans etc. because so far the Bankeq descendants seem to be predominantly V13, not related to you guys.

Yeah please ask your dad when you can and it would be nice if you could arrange something to actually test these families as a local from there. Here is what Ndue Bacaj has on the Anas families:

Nė Hot sot jetojnė edhe trashigimtaret e banoreve qė i thėrrasin* Fisi* ANAS (Vendas ,ose mė sakt banoret qė gjeten nė Hot kur erdhi Lazer Keqi me tė birin Gegėn). Sipas Llesh P. Smajlaj-t nga fisi Anas* kemi keto vėllazėri: Nė Stare vllazėria e* Dakė Hasanit* dhe e Cak Hasanit , Nė Rapshė vėllazėria* Locaj, Nė Bozhaj kemi dy vėllazėri tė Martin Pecit..(29). Anas janė edhe* disa shtepi qė edhe sot e ruajnė* mbiemrin “Junēaj” tė cilet mendoj se janė “trashigimtar” tė Junē Hotit, kryeparit tė malit tė Hotit qė quhej Kapetan (capitaneus montanee Ottorum ) nė vitin 1434, dhe nuk kanė lidhje “gjaku” me fisin tjeter Junēaj qė janė trashigimtar tė Junēit ,djalit tė* Gegė* Lazrit

There are Hot in Kosove actually, few compact villages too in Drenice (would be nice if they tested), but true not as prominent as the clans you mentioned, especially Berisha, Thaēi (with Elshan, Zogaj, Mzi), Gash, Krasniq and Kelmend. Interesting phenomenon was going on in Kosova, clans that didn't have good presence in Kosove adopted other clans, in most cases the most prominent clan that inhabited the village they settled or the surrounding villages and fused to form compact settlements. Also oral traditions played quite the part for example in the case of Shllak/Topllane/Gash, Shale/Shosh, Krasnqi/Nikaj/Hot and to an extent Berish/Mertur/Kuē. All Shllak and Topllane, including the Anas from there, even from Dushman like Lumbardhi, claim to be Gash in Kosove because of their influence and their supposed common origin. Good part of Shosh and the Anas from Dukagjin claim to be Shale. All Nikaj do the same, they identify as Krasniq and probably good part of Hoti that migrated here do the same - we suspect Krasniqi belonging to your cluster might be such a case.

Thanks bro, we couldn't do it without guys like you participating and contributing :)

Zanatis
06-22-2017, 07:04 AM
I used to have the book of Hoti written by a friend of my father but I can't find the PDF file as its been 10 years now. I think I lost it in my old laptop. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

It practically covers everything, including the wars between the Hoti and the Balshaj and other neighbouring tribes/clans.

Illyro-Vlach
06-22-2017, 04:19 PM
I used to have the book of Hoti written by a friend of my father but I can't find the PDF file as its been 10 years now. I think I lost it in my old laptop. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

It practically covers everything, including the wars between the Hoti and the Balshaj and other neighbouring tribes/clans.

Are these Balshaj related to the Balsici of Montenegro?

Skerdilaidas
06-22-2017, 05:47 PM
Are these Balshaj related to the Balsici of Montenegro?

Yes same family, in Albanian historiography they are known as 'Balshaj'. Balsha III was involved in a dispute for posture lands between old Hoti and Mataguzi which actually lead to a new war because Hoti didn't recognise Balsha's authority after they ruled in favour of Mataguzi. I believe that's what Zanatis was referring to.



I haven't heard of that book, Zanatis. Do you know who was the author?

TuaMan
06-23-2017, 02:23 PM
I'm pretty sure I know the exact book Zanatis is talking about - it's a big red book that has the family tree and history of each brotherhood of Hoti written down. I forget the name of it, but it was published in Albania a while back, one of my uncles visited Albania around 10 years ago and brought back a copy for my dad.

Kelmendasi
06-23-2017, 06:21 PM
Thanks, but a few more questions. You tested at YSEQ who are you comparing your STRs to as you stated they don't provide matching. Are you just looking up in the FTDNA projects or did you join Y Search?

My cousin has no matches at 37 markers either. He has one match to an Arabic man at 25 marker, and in the bigger picture not so much of a match. That man's terminal SNP is listed as J-ZS7213. My cousin is negative for it because upstream SNPs that are in the pack he was negative for. He has lots of 12 marker matches that are Arabic, and Jewish.

You mentioned that 3% of Ghegs are J1 where did you see that? Do you know if they have a specific subclade of J1 and/or are there any STRs to compare to?
I also tested at Ftdna

Skerdilaidas
07-12-2017, 04:04 AM
I'm pretty sure I know the exact book Zanatis is talking about - it's a big red book that has the family tree and history of each brotherhood of Hoti written down. I forget the name of it, but it was published in Albania a while back, one of my uncles visited Albania around 10 years ago and brought back a copy for my dad.

Any way possible for me to get my hands on the book you're speaking of? I have searched the net but have found nothing so far.

TuaMan
07-16-2017, 03:58 PM
Any way possible for me to get my hands on the book you're speaking of? I have searched the net but have found nothing so far.

So the name of the book that my dad has is Hoti - Gjenealogjia e Pjeseshme e Tij , written by a man named Llesh Prec Smajlaj. It appears it was published in 2006 in Albania by a publishing company called "Rozafat" in Shkoder.

I tried googling the book and unfortunately it doesn't look like there's a way to purchase it online, I think the best way would be to get in touch with the publishing house directly somehow. One thing I've found is that Albanian churches in the US usually are a pretty good resource for Albanian-language material relating to northern/Catholic Albanian culture, history, notable personalities, folklore, etc, they usually have a selection of actually Albanian-published books for sale relating to those topics that you otherwise couldn't get without going to Albania directly and looking for them there. I'm supposed to go to New York for a wedding in October, when I'm at the church there I'll definitely check out their selection and see if there's anything interesting.

Illyro-Vlach
07-17-2017, 07:48 AM
So the name of the book that my dad has is Hoti - Gjenealogjia e Pjeseshme e Tij , written by a man named Llesh Prec Smajlaj. It appears it was published in 2006 in Albania by a publishing company called "Rozafat" in Shkoder.

I tried googling the book and unfortunately it doesn't look like there's a way to purchase it online, I think the best way would be to get in touch with the publishing house directly somehow. One thing I've found is that Albanian churches in the US usually are a pretty good resource for Albanian-language material relating to northern/Catholic Albanian culture, history, notable personalities, folklore, etc, they usually have a selection of actually Albanian-published books for sale relating to those topics that you otherwise couldn't get without going to Albania directly and looking for them there. I'm supposed to go to New York for a wedding in October, when I'm at the church there I'll definitely check out their selection and see if there's anything interesting.

I'm very, very interested in the contents of this book. Hopefully one of you guys can grab it so that I can rely on you to translate the material.

TuaMan
07-17-2017, 10:04 PM
I'm very, very interested in the contents of this book. Hopefully one of you guys can grab it so that I can rely on you to translate the material.

Bro no worries, next chance I get I'm going to borrow it and pour over all the details. I'll need to collaborate heavily with Skerdilaidas or Trojet probably because unfortunately I can't speak Albanian for shit (especially when it comes to academic stuff) but we'll make it happen, lol.

Zanatis
07-18-2017, 06:01 AM
I'll also check my dads emails from 10 years back as soon as I get the chance and you can count on me for translation too. I believe borrowing the book from someone will be a hassle unlike the PDF for us internet folks :)

@Illyro-Vlach
Why are you so interested in the book, if I may ask? What information do you hope to find?

Illyro-Vlach
07-18-2017, 01:02 PM
I'll also check my dads emails from 10 years back as soon as I get the chance and you can count on me for translation too. I believe borrowing the book from someone will be a hassle unlike the PDF for us internet folks :)

@Illyro-Vlach
Why are you so interested in the book, if I may ask? What information do you hope to find?

I'm a Croatian from Hercegovina (Livno) high up in the Dinaric Alps and I'm J-M241. I am also very heavily into the local history, cultures, genomics of the Balkans with a particular focus on the Dinaric Alps stretching from Hercegovina down through Montenegro and into Northern Albania. Present-day Montenegro covers what I refer to as the Vlach-Proto-Albanian/Albanian contact zone from the Medieval Era in that you had these pre-Slavonic mountain tribes that engaged in many migrations and micro-migrations with likely fluid identities and multilingualism. I'm also very interested in finding direct evidence of Hotis in Hercegovina as per Hoti oral history. My gut tells me that if it is the case that the Hoti were in Hercegovina, then it was most likely that they were in present day Northern Montenegro which was once part of a larger Hercegovina during the Ottoman Era. Of great interest to me is the assimilation of Vlach tribes into the Croatian, Serb and Montenegrin nations and seeing if there was a larger Albanian contribution to the Croatian nation besides the ones that we are 100% certain of: the Arbanasi of Northern Dalmatia who hail from the highlands in behind Bar towards Lake Skadar, and the Croatians of Hrtkovci in today's Serbian Srijem, who descend from Catholic Kelmendis that were resettled there during the 18th century (or maybe earlier, I have to check my notes). In my county there are Croatians with the surname Kelava which is of Albanian origin lingustically. I'd be interested in finding out if these Kelavas are of assimilated Albanian stock that migrated northwards or if the surname is just a coincidence (as is often the case in the Balkans).

Trojet
07-24-2017, 12:13 PM
For Albanian readers. The rest should be able to use Google Translate :P
http://www.gjenetika.com/perberja-gjenetike-shqiptare-sipas-linjave-aterore-y-dna/

MalesiaHoti
08-01-2017, 07:20 AM
So the name of the book that my dad has is Hoti - Gjenealogjia e Pjeseshme e Tij , written by a man named Llesh Prec Smajlaj. It appears it was published in 2006 in Albania by a publishing company called "Rozafat" in Shkoder.

I tried googling the book and unfortunately it doesn't look like there's a way to purchase it online, I think the best way would be to get in touch with the publishing house directly somehow. One thing I've found is that Albanian churches in the US usually are a pretty good resource for Albanian-language material relating to northern/Catholic Albanian culture, history, notable personalities, folklore, etc, they usually have a selection of actually Albanian-published books for sale relating to those topics that you otherwise couldn't get without going to Albania directly and looking for them there. I'm supposed to go to New York for a wedding in October, when I'm at the church there I'll definitely check out their selection and see if there's anything interesting.

Hello, My fathers side is from Hoti and I was doing research on Hoti to know my history and stumbled upon this. Firstly, I'd like to say I live in New York and there is an Albanian Church very near my house. If everyone would like I can go in and try to find any books relating to the topic.

Secondly, my mother is from Gruda and was married to my father for over thirty years so she learned a lot about relatives and the history of Hoti through my fathers relatives.

About the Old Hoti, and new Hoti, my mother always said there was a Hoti from her side (Gruda) and the Hoti where my father is from (South of Plav in Montenegro on top of the Albanian-Montenegrin Border). My fathers side is Muslim for quite a few generations, my grandfather( anyone I mention from now on is from my fathers side) who is 86 says our lineage goes back to Gjokaj who was a Catholic Man, my mother disagrees and said he doesn't remember well since he is getting older and can forget. My mother always said there was a guy who had four sons, and from those four sons, the last names (Main ones I guess) became. [Hysenaj, Haxhaj, Sinanaj, Mujaj dhe Mehaj]. I searched this up and did find some info on it, I don't know if this is considered the Old Hoti or New Hoti.


If you go to the link below, you can see the small circle on the right which is the Hoti my father is from and then on the left is where Wikipedia has a map (on the Hoti article on wiki) that says that is Hoti and Gruda and I guess that is the Hoti my mother was talking about.
i.imgur(DOT)com/JTfyxPE.png

So I think those two may be the two different Hoti we are speaking about?

My Grandfather is getting pretty old, would it be beneficial if I were to try to get a DNA test. I can get it from myself, my father, or my grandfather. Im guessing it would be better if I get it from my grandfather?

One of my friends had a book as well on the history and lineage of the area I am from, I will speak to him and see if I can get a hold of the book. If there is any questions anyone would like for me to ask my grandfather, it would be my pleasure to. I hope we can solve all of our questions :)

MacUalraig
08-01-2017, 08:23 AM
Hello, My fathers side is from Hoti and I was doing research on Hoti to know my history and stumbled upon this. Firstly, I'd like to say I live in New York and there is an Albanian Church very near my house. If everyone would like I can go in and try to find any books relating to the topic.

Secondly, my mother is from Gruda and was married to my father for over thirty years so she learned a lot about relatives and the history of Hoti through my fathers relatives.

About the Old Hoti, and new Hoti, my mother always said there was a Hoti from her side (Gruda) and the Hoti where my father is from (South of Plav in Montenegro on top of the Albanian-Montenegrin Border). My fathers side is Muslim for quite a few generations, my grandfather( anyone I mention from now on is from my fathers side) who is 86 says our lineage goes back to Gjokaj who was a Catholic Man, my mother disagrees and said he doesn't remember well since he is getting older and can forget. My mother always said there was a guy who had four sons, and from those four sons, the last names (Main ones I guess) became. [Hysenaj, Haxhaj, Sinanaj, Mujaj dhe Mehaj]. I searched this up and did find some info on it, I don't know if this is considered the Old Hoti or New Hoti.


If you go to the link below, you can see the small circle on the right which is the Hoti my father is from and then on the left is where Wikipedia has a map (on the Hoti article on wiki) that says that is Hoti and Gruda and I guess that is the Hoti my mother was talking about.
i.imgur(DOT)com/JTfyxPE.png

So I think those two may be the two different Hoti we are speaking about?

My Grandfather is getting pretty old, would it be beneficial if I were to try to get a DNA test. I can get it from myself, my father, or my grandfather. Im guessing it would be better if I get it from my grandfather?

One of my friends had a book as well on the history and lineage of the area I am from, I will speak to him and see if I can get a hold of the book. If there is any questions anyone would like for me to ask my grandfather, it would be my pleasure to. I hope we can solve all of our questions :)

If you are doing a Y chromosome (paternal) test it doesn't matter so much which generation you test. The distinction is much more important for autosomal tests as each generation suffers quite a loss of genetic information.

Of course even better if you have the cash would be to do a WGS test on your father, that gives you Y, mtDNA and autosomal all in one.

Trojet
08-01-2017, 05:32 PM
Hello, My fathers side is from Hoti and I was doing research on Hoti to know my history and stumbled upon this. Firstly, I'd like to say I live in New York and there is an Albanian Church very near my house. If everyone would like I can go in and try to find any books relating to the topic.

Secondly, my mother is from Gruda and was married to my father for over thirty years so she learned a lot about relatives and the history of Hoti through my fathers relatives.

About the Old Hoti, and new Hoti, my mother always said there was a Hoti from her side (Gruda) and the Hoti where my father is from (South of Plav in Montenegro on top of the Albanian-Montenegrin Border). My fathers side is Muslim for quite a few generations, my grandfather( anyone I mention from now on is from my fathers side) who is 86 says our lineage goes back to Gjokaj who was a Catholic Man, my mother disagrees and said he doesn't remember well since he is getting older and can forget. My mother always said there was a guy who had four sons, and from those four sons, the last names (Main ones I guess) became. [Hysenaj, Haxhaj, Sinanaj, Mujaj dhe Mehaj]. I searched this up and did find some info on it, I don't know if this is considered the Old Hoti or New Hoti.


If you go to the link below, you can see the small circle on the right which is the Hoti my father is from and then on the left is where Wikipedia has a map (on the Hoti article on wiki) that says that is Hoti and Gruda and I guess that is the Hoti my mother was talking about.
i.imgur(DOT)com/JTfyxPE.png

So I think those two may be the two different Hoti we are speaking about?

My Grandfather is getting pretty old, would it be beneficial if I were to try to get a DNA test. I can get it from myself, my father, or my grandfather. Im guessing it would be better if I get it from my grandfather?

One of my friends had a book as well on the history and lineage of the area I am from, I will speak to him and see if I can get a hold of the book. If there is any questions anyone would like for me to ask my grandfather, it would be my pleasure to. I hope we can solve all of our questions :)

Hi MalesiaHoti,

A couple of those names you mentioned seem to be associated with the "new" Hoti. But I'm not certain...

As the user above me mentioned, for Y-DNA (paternal line) you don't have to test your father or grandfather. You can test yourself, since the Y-Chromosome is passed from father to son without any recombination. The "new" Hoti are confirmed under J2b2-L283>Z1296 branch, and are related to each other. So you can confirm this by testing at FTDNA (Y-DNA37).

FTDNA actually has a sale right now. You can get Y-DNA37 for $139: https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?group=AlbanianBloodlines&code=B11086

Skerdilaidas
08-01-2017, 07:46 PM
Hi MalesiaHoti, really nice to see another Hoti member here. I would really appreciate it if you can check out the church TuaMan mentioned to see if they have the book we were speaking about :)

Ps, maybe TuaMan knows more than I do, but from what I have seen on ethnographic literature and articles written by Albanian authors, 'Hoti i Vendit', as you guys are known, don't seem to know if they are Rapshe, Traboin or Anas, in other words new or old - but definitely with origin from Hoti tribal lands. Best would be to test yourself, and use the opportunity now while they are offering sales.

Tįltos
08-02-2017, 02:28 AM
Hello, My fathers side is from Hoti and I was doing research on Hoti to know my history and stumbled upon this. Firstly, I'd like to say I live in New York and there is an Albanian Church very near my house. If everyone would like I can go in and try to find any books relating to the topic.

Secondly, my mother is from Gruda and was married to my father for over thirty years so she learned a lot about relatives and the history of Hoti through my fathers relatives.

About the Old Hoti, and new Hoti, my mother always said there was a Hoti from her side (Gruda) and the Hoti where my father is from (South of Plav in Montenegro on top of the Albanian-Montenegrin Border). My fathers side is Muslim for quite a few generations, my grandfather( anyone I mention from now on is from my fathers side) who is 86 says our lineage goes back to Gjokaj who was a Catholic Man, my mother disagrees and said he doesn't remember well since he is getting older and can forget. My mother always said there was a guy who had four sons, and from those four sons, the last names (Main ones I guess) became. [Hysenaj, Haxhaj, Sinanaj, Mujaj dhe Mehaj]. I searched this up and did find some info on it, I don't know if this is considered the Old Hoti or New Hoti.


If you go to the link below, you can see the small circle on the right which is the Hoti my father is from and then on the left is where Wikipedia has a map (on the Hoti article on wiki) that says that is Hoti and Gruda and I guess that is the Hoti my mother was talking about.
i.imgur(DOT)com/JTfyxPE.png

So I think those two may be the two different Hoti we are speaking about?

My Grandfather is getting pretty old, would it be beneficial if I were to try to get a DNA test. I can get it from myself, my father, or my grandfather. Im guessing it would be better if I get it from my grandfather?

One of my friends had a book as well on the history and lineage of the area I am from, I will speak to him and see if I can get a hold of the book. If there is any questions anyone would like for me to ask my grandfather, it would be my pleasure to. I hope we can solve all of our questions :)

Welcome to Anthrogenica MalesiaHoti!

You're best bet to get the most bang for your buck is to test both your grandfather, AND your father with Family Finder. The sale at FTDNA started today, and ends August 31st. The Family Finder test is only $69! It is always best to test the oldest generations first as they may not be with us as long as we think. **All of my grandparents, and father passed away before I started using DNA to help with genealogy. :(

Down the road if you want to know the mtDNA of your grandfather, and your father both of their DNA will be in storage. They most likely will each have different subclades. You can test them as your budget allows. You of course as others have stated will carry the same Y DNA as the both of them. So you can test your own Y DNA. Keep in mind they will have sales again that run from November to the end of December.

Now if you have unlimited funds then just test Family Finder for all three of you, mtDNA for all three, and Big Y for yourself. :)

TuaMan
08-02-2017, 11:26 PM
About the Old Hoti, and new Hoti, my mother always said there was a Hoti from her side (Gruda) and the Hoti where my father is from (South of Plav in Montenegro on top of the Albanian-Montenegrin Border). My fathers side is Muslim for quite a few generations, my grandfather( anyone I mention from now on is from my fathers side) who is 86 says our lineage goes back to Gjokaj who was a Catholic Man, my mother disagrees and said he doesn't remember well since he is getting older and can forget. My mother always said there was a guy who had four sons, and from those four sons, the last names (Main ones I guess) became. [Hysenaj, Haxhaj, Sinanaj, Mujaj dhe Mehaj]. I searched this up and did find some info on it, I don't know if this is considered the Old Hoti or New Hoti.

Your mother could be correct as far as your paternal grandfather being a bit confused on the genealogy, as far as I know there are no Gjokajs from Hoti. There are Gjokajs from Trieshi (which is considered a brother tribe to Hoti) and also Gruda, but I'm not sure if the Gruda Gjokaj are there own independent fis or simply a branch of the Trieshi family.



If you go to the link below, you can see the small circle on the right which is the Hoti my father is from and then on the left is where Wikipedia has a map (on the Hoti article on wiki) that says that is Hoti and Gruda and I guess that is the Hoti my mother was talking about.
i.imgur(DOT)com/JTfyxPE.png

So I think those two may be the two different Hoti we are speaking about?

The link you posted doesn't work I'm afraid, at least not for me. Can you re-post?

MalesiaHoti
08-03-2017, 04:19 AM
Your mother could be correct as far as your paternal grandfather being a bit confused on the genealogy, as far as I know there are no Gjokajs from Hoti. There are Gjokajs from Trieshi (which is considered a brother tribe to Hoti) and also Gruda, but I'm not sure if the Gruda Gjokaj are there own independent fis or simply a branch of the Trieshi family.




The link you posted doesn't work I'm afraid, at least not for me. Can you re-post?


Interesting. For the link, replace the (DOT) with a period and it should work.

Illyro-Vlach
08-07-2017, 11:50 PM
Albanian friends:

Where does the surname Dushaj come from?

TuaMan
08-08-2017, 12:36 AM
Albanian friends:

Where does the surname Dushaj come from?

From everyone's favorite northern Albo tribe - Hoti :P. More specifically, the family comes from a village called Skorraq, which is on the Montenegrin side of the border.

Illyro-Vlach
08-08-2017, 12:57 AM
From everyone's favorite northern Albo tribe - Hoti :P. More specifically, the family comes from a village called Skorraq, which is on the Montenegrin side of the border.

One just popped up on my 23andMe in the DNA Relatives section as a distant relative. He's listed as J-M241.

Skerdilaidas
08-08-2017, 03:57 AM
Yes, as TuaMan confirmed it they are Hot, Traboin more specifically (Pjeter Gega's descendants).

Illyro-Vlach
08-08-2017, 03:31 PM
Yes, as TuaMan confirmed it they are Hot, Traboin more specifically (Pjeter Gega's descendants).

I'm wondering what signals 23andMe is picking up as I get some Albanians at the very end of my DNA Relatives. I also know that their cousin predictor isn't perfect as I stumbled upon a 3rd cousin last night who they predicted to be "5th cousin to distant". I should make a list of the Albanians that are in my DNA Relatives finder and pm it to one of you guys. From what I see it's mainly from Montenegro and some from Kosovo.

Skerdilaidas
08-08-2017, 04:09 PM
I'm wondering what signals 23andMe is picking up as I get some Albanians at the very end of my DNA Relatives. I also know that their cousin predictor isn't perfect as I stumbled upon a 3rd cousin last night who they predicted to be "5th cousin to distant". I should make a list of the Albanians that are in my DNA Relatives finder and pm it to one of you guys. From what I see it's mainly from Montenegro and some from Kosovo.

Interesting. I never paid much attention to my distant relatives there because I assumed in good part they are false positive matches because 23andme doesn't do phasing. I have like 1344 relatives currently, mostly from the Balkans but some even from England and as far as Spain.

Yeah send the list to me and I will look at it. I am matching you there basically on the same distance as the member Trojet here and few other Albanians, very distantly.

Illyro-Vlach
08-08-2017, 04:13 PM
Interesting. I never paid much attention to my distant relatives there because I assumed in good part they are false positive matches because 23andme doesn't do phasing. I have like 13444 relatives currently, mostly from the Balkans but some even from England and as far as Spain.

Yeah send the list to me and I will look at it. I am matching you there basically on the same distance as the member Trojet here and few other Albanians, very distantly.

I will send you a sheet with names and their haplogroups/geographic areas when I am feeling much less lazy than I am at present. But yeah, there must be a lot of false positives in DNA Relatives. The further down the list I go the more remote the region.

shadowy1
09-09-2017, 03:19 PM
Hi guys i was doing some research into my family tree.I come from the Hoti Tribe [Junēaj Brotherhood] but my family converted to Islam some time ago maybe 200-300 years I'm not sure .I'm trying to get the family tree all up to Gega Lazder(Laz/Lazar).I have found the one which i will give imgur link below.I would like to get a complete version or at least all Junēaj Members or most of them.

imgur(dot)com/a/NvnAd -is the link to the picture i found.

I have been doing a lot of research in order to find the missing part of the tree but I can't find it anywhere and I don't speak Albanian language :( .If you have any information I would greatly appreciate it.If someone needs more information I will try to provide it!

skrnjo
09-09-2017, 07:04 PM
Hi guys i was doing some research into my family tree.I come from the Hoti Tribe but my family converted to Islam some time ago maybe 200-300 years im not sure .im trying to get the family tree all up to Gega Lazder.I have found this one but does anyone have complete version ?

imgur(dot)com/a/NvnAd -is the link to the picture i found.

I come from the Juncaj Brotherhood.I have been doing a lot of researchin order to find the missing part of the tree but i cant find it anywhere and i dont speak albanian:(.If you have any information i would greatly appreciate.If someone needs more info i will try to provide it!

Pro tip: change Ethnicity/Nationality fields of your profile.

TuaMan
10-02-2017, 09:39 PM
Very sad news, Robert Elsie passed away today:

http://www.elsie.de/index.htm

https://www.facebook.com/robert.elsie1

olive picker
10-11-2017, 08:45 AM
New result:

Krasniqi (Blakaj brotherhood). From Vrellė, Istog, Kosova.

Haplogroup: E1b-V13

Tested with ftDNA, Y111.

olive picker
10-12-2017, 01:57 PM
Five new results from 23andme:


1) Shkreli, from Kėllezne e Poshtme, Ulēin.
Halpogoup: R1b-L23

2) Triesh (or Triepshi), brotherhood Bėnkaj, from Trieshi in Malsia.
Haplogroup: R1b-L23

3) Krasniqi, from Prishtina (origins in Medvegja).
Haplogroup: R1b-L23

4) Hoti, Gjonaj brotherhood, from Hoti i Vendit, Plavė - Guci.
Haplogroup: J2b2-M241

5) Gashi, from Northern Mitrovica.
Haplogroup: J2b2-M241

Gravetto-Danubian
10-12-2017, 02:18 PM
Five new results from 23andme:


1) Shkreli, from Kėllezne e Poshtme, Ulēin.
Halpogoup: R1b-L23

2) Triesh (or Triepshi), brotherhood Bėnkaj, from Trieshi in Malsia.
Haplogroup: R1b-L23

3) Krasniqi, from Prishtina (origins in Medvegja).
Haplogroup: R1b-L23

4) Hoti, Gjonaj brotherhood, from Hoti i Vendit, Plavė - Guci.
Haplogroup: J2b2-M241

5) Gashi, from Northern Mitrovica.
Haplogroup: J2b2-M241

Are those results able to be more precise in terms of subhaplogroups ?

Trojet
10-12-2017, 03:41 PM
Are those results able to be more precise in terms of subhaplogroups ?

We can make a good guess based on other members of such tribes tested at FTDNA/YSEQ. But obviously, nothing is certain.

However, we don't use 23andMe results for our results database. They're just used as a reference for northern tribes.

Skerdilaidas
10-12-2017, 05:24 PM
To be more specific..

The three L23 should be BY611 (we already have Krasniqi and Trieshi-Bėnkaj tested as such at FTDNA).

Hoti should belong to their main cluster under Z1295.

Gashi is most certainly PH1751, Luzha branch (three such Gashi samples from FTDNA).

olive picker
10-13-2017, 04:07 AM
New results from 23andme:

Kastrat, from Bajzė, Malsia.
Haplogroup: J2b2-M241

Gashi, from Krushė e Vogel, Kosova.
Haplogroup: J2b2-M241

Bane
10-14-2017, 10:10 AM
I have a question though I'm not sure it has a straight answer.
Can anyone assume whether there are certain E-V13 branches which are more common among Ghegs compared to Tosks and vice-verse, are there more common E-V13 branches among Tosks compared to Ghegs?

Trojet
10-14-2017, 01:22 PM
I have a question though I'm not sure it has a straight answer.
Can anyone assume whether there are certain E-V13 branches which are more common among Ghegs compared to Tosks and vice-verse, are the more common E-V13 branches among Tosks compared to Ghegs?

Currently we only have two Tosk E-V13's and none have done SNP testing.

The sample size is still too small, but so far North Albania and Kosova are mostly under E-S2979. While more central areas of Albania are mostly under E-CTS9320. We'll see how it unfolds in the future, including Tosk samples.

olive picker
10-14-2017, 03:47 PM
Two new results from 23andme:

Mati, from Burrel, Mat.
Haplogroup R1b-L23
(This person has said that they are one tribe/clan with Zogollet e Burgajetit, with the family of King Zog)

Mirdita, from Beci, Gjakovė.
Halpogroup: J2b2 J-M241

Dibran
10-14-2017, 08:09 PM
I have a 23andme match that popped up just now in Turkey. "4th cousin" in Turkey. He scores 94 percent Balkan which is clearly indication hes probably Albanian as Ghegs are the only ones who score this range. His maternal ancestor is from Kosova, and Paternal ancestors from Western Macedonia, where a branch of Kocis went. My father also said Koci from Macedonia went to Turkey some 200 years ago. I wonder if he is related to a distant Koci that settled Turkey. His Y-DNA is only at the M417 level. So its no way to know for certain. I emailed him so I hope he knows english or albanian and responds. I asked if he did ftdna or a deeper y test. Surname is Aybasti, which is not the same. It sounds more Turkish and his paternal grandmother is from Turkey according to his profile. Even the mothers father was from Western Macedonia. Fathers mom from Kosova, and father Western Macedonia. He also matches another Koci cousin of ours who tested, but is a 3rd cousin Koci. I wonder if hes part of our line and tested further. My guess though is that this is his first test given he was matches.

olive picker
10-16-2017, 06:05 AM
Two new results from 23amdme:


Kelmendi, from Bogė, Rugovė.
Halpogroup: E1b-V13

Kryeziu, from Peja.
Halpogroup: I1-M253

Dibran
10-16-2017, 03:12 PM
Two new results from 23amdme:


Kelmendi, from Bogė, Rugovė.
Halpogroup: E1b-V13

Kryeziu, from Peja.
Halpogroup: I1-M253

What was I1 in Albanians associated with? Goths/Normans?

olive picker
10-16-2017, 03:40 PM
What was I1 in Albanians associated with? Goths/Normans?

I1-Z63 clade is mostly associated with Goths or other Germanics.
I1-L22>P109 clade is associated with Normans.

Dibran
10-16-2017, 04:21 PM
I1-Z63 clade is mostly associated with Goths or other Germanics.
I1-L22>P109 clade is associated with Normans.

Ahh I see. thanks for clarification.

Dibran
10-17-2017, 12:58 PM
Currently we only have two Tosk E-V13's and none have done SNP testing.

The sample size is still too small, but so far North Albania and Kosova are mostly under E-S2979. While more central areas of Albania are mostly under E-CTS9320. We'll see how it unfolds in the future, including Tosk samples.

So I received my Y37 results. As I suspected, No matches at Y37. I only match at Y12. How far back/significant is Y12? Also can people of different R1a clades match at 12 markers? because it seems scattered. Most of my matches at Y12 are German. Here are the attachments. I imagine since I have no matches at Y37, that Y67 would not yield a match?

Just placed as M198. I imagine y67 will classify up to Z283.

19329

19330

J Man
10-17-2017, 04:06 PM
So I received my Y37 results. As I suspected, No matches at Y37. I only match at Y12. How far back/significant is Y12? Also can people of different R1a clades match at 12 markers? because it seems scattered. Most of my matches at Y12 are German. Here are the attachments. I imagine since I have no matches at Y37, that Y67 would not yield a match?

Just placed as M198. I imagine y67 will classify up to Z283.

19329

19330

You are not very closely related to your 12 marker matches within a genealogical time frame (500 or so years ago) if you match with none of them at 37 markers. You are probably only related to your 12 marker matches many thousands of years ago. Indeed in some cases even 37 marker matches are not even related to each other within the last few thousand years. Exact or close matches at 37 markers are indeed usually closely related but 33/37 marker matches may only be related to each other over a thousand years ago. SNP testing is much more reliable overall than STR.

Dibran
10-17-2017, 04:59 PM
You are not very closely related to your 12 marker matches within a genealogical time frame (500 or so years ago) if you match with none of them at 37 markers. You are probably only related to your 12 marker matches many thousands of years ago. Indeed in some cases even 37 marker matches are not even related to each other within the last few thousand years. Exact or close matches at 37 markers are indeed usually closely related but 33/37 marker matches may only be related to each other over a thousand years ago. SNP testing is much more reliable overall than STR.

Testing Yelite with fullgenomes. Yea, I don't have matches at 37, and according to admin my y67 is available but I can't see if there are any matches, and it still just has me at Y37-M198. R1a project predicted me as M458 YP515, but based on nevgen there is 62.6% Unknown. Idk how classifications are made with a low percentage reliability of placement. Assuming Yelite confirms their assumption, Who is this linked to? the TMRCA of YP515 is 2100 years.

Nevgen predictor:

62.6% Unsupported subclade
13.3% R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
13.0% R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP444
11.2% R1a Z282>M458>> YP515-------------------------> Predicted by R1a Project

olive picker
10-18-2017, 11:41 AM
One new 23andme result:
Hoti, from (unknown right now)
Haplogroup: J2b2-M241

olive picker
10-18-2017, 12:16 PM
New YSEQ result:

Albanian, from Gostivar, Macedonia
Haplogroup: R1a-M417>Z283>M458

olive picker
10-18-2017, 07:11 PM
One new ftDNA Y67 result from user Dibran

Dibran, from Dibėr e Vogėl, Albania.
Haplogroup: R1a-M417>Z283>M458?

New YSEQ alpha-beta result:

Thaqi, from Hade, Kosova.
Haplogroup: R1b-CTS9219>BY611

olive picker
10-18-2017, 07:16 PM
Another Thaqi, tested with YSEQ:

Thaqi from Kamenica, Kosova.
Haplogroup: J2b2-L283>Z1296>PH2967 (under PH2967 seems PH1751)

New result YSEQ:

Sopi from Raince in Preshevo, Serbia.
Haplogroup: E1b-V13>S2979>FGC33625

He's in a group (E-FGC33625) that is found in most of Sopi and Berisha.

Dibran
10-20-2017, 06:44 PM
New YSEQ result:

Albanian, from Gostivar, Macedonia
Haplogroup: R1a-M417>Z283>M458

Me and him may be a match, waiting for Yelite to confirm.

Dibran
10-20-2017, 06:47 PM
Another Thaqi, tested with YSEQ:

Thaqi from Kamenica, Kosova.
Haplogroup: J2b2-L283>Z1296>PH2967 (under PH2967 seems PH1751)

New result YSEQ:

Sopi from Raince in Preshevo, Serbia.
Haplogroup: E1b-V13>S2979>FGC33625

He's in a group (E-FGC33625) that is found in most of Sopi and Berisha.

Have any Berisha from northern Albania tested? wonder if its same family. If I recall from where,my bro in law is Berisha from I think Has or Rugova.

Kelmendasi
10-21-2017, 11:56 AM
Have any Berisha from northern Albania tested? wonder if its same family. If I recall from where,my bro in law is Berisha from I think Has or Rugova.
As far as I know there hasn't, but people from Berisha(actual blood descendants of Berisha) seem to have a homogenous origin in terms of ydna as E-V13>FGC33625 dominates the Berisha clan so I would bet that the Berisha in Albanian will also be E-V13>FGC33625. Your brother in law is probably Berishe from Has as Rugova is majorly Kelmendi with the rest being Shkrel and Kastrat although there could be some Berishe but I personally haven't heard of Berisha from Rugova

Dibran
10-21-2017, 05:25 PM
As far as I know there hasn't, but people from Berisha(actual blood descendants of Berisha) seem to have a homogenous origin in terms of ydna as E-V13>FGC33625 dominates the Berisha clan so I would bet that the Berisha in Albanian will also be E-V13>FGC33625. Your brother in law is probably Berishe from Has as Rugova is majorly Kelmendi with the rest being Shkrel and Kastrat although there could be some Berishe but I personally haven't heard of Berisha from Rugova

Probably Has then yea

JerryS.
10-22-2017, 12:39 AM
it is rumored by some in my family that our Italian side at one time came from Albania. some of my population groups using regular oracles show a mix of southern Italian and Balkan with Albanian specifically showing a few times. my dna was autosomal and I am mostly English and German. how can I tell or decipher my dna results or raw data to narrow down this possibility? here are some of my groups from GEDmatch:

Dodecad

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 84.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 15.1% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 1.3
2 84.1% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 15.9% O_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.46
3 86.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 13.7% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.46
4 86.9% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 13.1% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.51
5 88.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 11.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.52
6 88.7% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 11.3% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.55
7 80.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 19.1% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.58
8 87.7% Orcadian (HGDP) + 12.3% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.59
9 87.8% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 12.2% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.6
10 88.5% Orcadian (HGDP) + 11.5% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.61
11 87.4% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 12.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.66
12 88.1% Orcadian (HGDP) + 11.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.66
13 88% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 12% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.71
14 87.8% Orcadian (HGDP) + 12.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.76
15 85.3% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 14.7% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.78
16 92.6% CEU (HapMap) + 7.4% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.79
17 87% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 13% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.79

mix of various oracles.

Using 4 populations’ approximation:

Belarusian + German_South + German_South + Tuscan @ 1.321496
Albanian + English_South + Irish + Irish @ 1.338617
English_South + German_South + Greek + Icelandic @ 1.376707
Albanian + Dutch_South + English_South + Norwegian @ 1.377633
British_Isles + C_Italian + CEU30 + Lithuanian @ 0.773760
British_Isles + C_Italian + Cornwall + Lithuanian @ 0.831269

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

73.4% North_German + 26.6% Italian @ 1.56
80.1% English + 19.9% Albanian @ 2.68
85.1% English + 14.9% Greek @ 2.52
71.2% English + 28.8% Macedonian @ 2.37
79% North_German + 21% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.23
72.3% Irish + 27.7% Albanian @ 1.29
68.5% English + 31.5% Montenegrian @ 2.63
85.1% English + 14.9% Greek @ 2.52
89.7% Mixed_Germanic + 10.3% Sicilian @ 1.61
87.8% Orcadian + 12.2% S_Italian_Sicilian @ 1.74
87.4% Orkney + 12.6% Sicilian @ 1.64
87% Orkney + 13% S_Italian_Sicilian @ 1.78
82.2% Frisian + 17.8% Albanian_Tirana @ 1.89
86% Frisian + 14% Italian_South @ 1.99
85% Frisian + 15% Sicilian_Center @ 2.04
86.8% Orcadian + 13.2 Cypriots (Behar) @ 0.7

MDLP K23b

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.5% Frisian ( ) + 17.5% Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) @ 1.89
2 82.2% Frisian ( ) + 17.8% Albanian_Tirana ( ) @ 1.89
3 79.8% Frisian ( ) + 20.2% Kosovar ( ) @ 1.93
4 82.1% Frisian ( ) + 17.9% Greek_Thessaly ( ) @ 1.94
5 86% Frisian ( ) + 14% Italian_South ( ) @ 1.99
6 85.6% Frisian ( ) + 14.4% Greek_Athens ( ) @ 1.99
7 83.9% Frisian ( ) + 16.1% Central_Greek ( ) @ 2
8 85% Frisian ( ) + 15% Sicilian_Center ( ) @ 2.04
9 79.3% Frisian ( ) + 20.7% Bulgarian ( ) @ 2.05
10 88.5% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 11.5% Georgian_Tbilisi ( ) @ 2.05
11 83.5% Frisian ( ) + 16.5% Ashkenazi ( ) @ 2.07
12 79.4% Frisian ( ) + 20.6% Greek_Northwest ( ) @ 2.08
13 88.9% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 11.1% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.08
14 85.5% Frisian ( ) + 14.5% Greek ( ) @ 2.09
15 93.2% Belgian ( ) + 6.8% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.09
16 84.6% Frisian ( ) + 15.4% Romanian_Jew ( ) @ 2.1
17 84.4% Frisian ( ) + 15.6% Gagauz ( ) @ 2.11
18 82.2% Frisian ( ) + 17.8% Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) @ 2.14
19 84.4% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 15.6% Circassian ( ) @ 2.15
20 93% Belgian ( ) + 7% Georgian_Imereti ( ) @ 2.15

Tįltos
10-22-2017, 03:38 AM
it is rumored by some in my family that our Italian side at one time came from Albania. some of my population groups using regular oracles show a mix of southern Italian and Balkan with Albanian specifically showing a few times. my dna was autosomal and I am mostly English and German. how can I tell or decipher my dna results or raw data to narrow down this possibility? here are some of my groups from GEDmatch:

Dodecad

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 84.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 15.1% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 1.3
2 84.1% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 15.9% O_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.46
3 86.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 13.7% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.46
4 86.9% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 13.1% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.51
5 88.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 11.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.52
6 88.7% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 11.3% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.55
7 80.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 19.1% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.58
8 87.7% Orcadian (HGDP) + 12.3% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.59
9 87.8% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 12.2% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.6
10 88.5% Orcadian (HGDP) + 11.5% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.61
11 87.4% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 12.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.66
12 88.1% Orcadian (HGDP) + 11.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.66
13 88% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 12% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.71
14 87.8% Orcadian (HGDP) + 12.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.76
15 85.3% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 14.7% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.78
16 92.6% CEU (HapMap) + 7.4% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.79
17 87% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 13% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.79

mix of various oracles.

Using 4 populations’ approximation:

Belarusian + German_South + German_South + Tuscan @ 1.321496
Albanian + English_South + Irish + Irish @ 1.338617
English_South + German_South + Greek + Icelandic @ 1.376707
Albanian + Dutch_South + English_South + Norwegian @ 1.377633
British_Isles + C_Italian + CEU30 + Lithuanian @ 0.773760
British_Isles + C_Italian + Cornwall + Lithuanian @ 0.831269

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

73.4% North_German + 26.6% Italian @ 1.56
80.1% English + 19.9% Albanian @ 2.68
85.1% English + 14.9% Greek @ 2.52
71.2% English + 28.8% Macedonian @ 2.37
79% North_German + 21% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.23
72.3% Irish + 27.7% Albanian @ 1.29
68.5% English + 31.5% Montenegrian @ 2.63
85.1% English + 14.9% Greek @ 2.52
89.7% Mixed_Germanic + 10.3% Sicilian @ 1.61
87.8% Orcadian + 12.2% S_Italian_Sicilian @ 1.74
87.4% Orkney + 12.6% Sicilian @ 1.64
87% Orkney + 13% S_Italian_Sicilian @ 1.78
82.2% Frisian + 17.8% Albanian_Tirana @ 1.89
86% Frisian + 14% Italian_South @ 1.99
85% Frisian + 15% Sicilian_Center @ 2.04
86.8% Orcadian + 13.2 Cypriots (Behar) @ 0.7

MDLP K23b

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.5% Frisian ( ) + 17.5% Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) @ 1.89
2 82.2% Frisian ( ) + 17.8% Albanian_Tirana ( ) @ 1.89
3 79.8% Frisian ( ) + 20.2% Kosovar ( ) @ 1.93
4 82.1% Frisian ( ) + 17.9% Greek_Thessaly ( ) @ 1.94
5 86% Frisian ( ) + 14% Italian_South ( ) @ 1.99
6 85.6% Frisian ( ) + 14.4% Greek_Athens ( ) @ 1.99
7 83.9% Frisian ( ) + 16.1% Central_Greek ( ) @ 2
8 85% Frisian ( ) + 15% Sicilian_Center ( ) @ 2.04
9 79.3% Frisian ( ) + 20.7% Bulgarian ( ) @ 2.05
10 88.5% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 11.5% Georgian_Tbilisi ( ) @ 2.05
11 83.5% Frisian ( ) + 16.5% Ashkenazi ( ) @ 2.07
12 79.4% Frisian ( ) + 20.6% Greek_Northwest ( ) @ 2.08
13 88.9% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 11.1% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.08
14 85.5% Frisian ( ) + 14.5% Greek ( ) @ 2.09
15 93.2% Belgian ( ) + 6.8% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.09
16 84.6% Frisian ( ) + 15.4% Romanian_Jew ( ) @ 2.1
17 84.4% Frisian ( ) + 15.6% Gagauz ( ) @ 2.11
18 82.2% Frisian ( ) + 17.8% Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) @ 2.14
19 84.4% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 15.6% Circassian ( ) @ 2.15
20 93% Belgian ( ) + 7% Georgian_Imereti ( ) @ 2.15

Jerry by looking at your actual matches are you able to tell if any of them are Albanian?

JerryS.
10-23-2017, 01:37 AM
Jerry by looking at your actual matches are you able to tell if any of them are Albanian?

I've found my matches are almost always mixed southern and northern/western Europe much like myself.... the mixtures are various but I've yet to find anyone close to having a majority (66% or more) of Med. countries as sources. I have several part Italian matches and of all the ones that replied to me, only one could say that they suspect Albanian as a distant source for their Italian roots. the rest of the folks just knew they were part Italian but none stated that they researched it further.

edited: my Italian side comes from the Crotone province of Calabria. I know there are a few Arbereshe villages in that area (San Nicola dell'Alto and Carfizzi).

trdbr1234
01-02-2018, 02:52 AM
How bout to start the new year with a nice R1a :)

My Haplo:
R-M198>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>YP4278>YP4441-A

What can you guys tell me about it?

Also, I have only 1 match at y37 and it is I believe a Croatian from Western Herzegovina. I was trying to read more on Porelko about this but was more confused than anything.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y35/

Illyro-Vlach
01-02-2018, 05:14 AM
How bout to start the new year with a nice R1a :)

My Haplo:
R-M198>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>YP4278>YP4441-A

What can you guys tell me about it?

Also, I have only 1 match at y37 and it is I believe a Croatian from Western Herzegovina. I was trying to read more on Porelko about this but was more confused than anything.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y35/

That's my neck of the woods. Can you give more information on this person that you match with you? Do you have a link to Poreklo? Where is your family from? What is your TMRCA with this individual?

trdbr1234
01-02-2018, 06:03 AM
That's my neck of the woods. Can you give more information on this person that you match with you? Do you have a link to Poreklo? Where is your family from? What is your TMRCA with this individual?

I match him on Ftdna. I don't want to display his personal information. But he is from Čitluk, Posušje(his ancestor at least). I was just viewing Porelko because they were discussing YP4278.( I didn't find him there) https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=662.0

I'm from the Golloborda region of Diber in Albania. As far as I know, I'm not supposed to have ancestry outside of this area. I initially assumed it may have come with the Rhodope Bogomils since they are mentioned as having come as refugees in the distant past. The Herzegovina link has me thinking it has something to do with Ottoman disturbances. I can't seem to find that much information. I have also heard of refugees from Kosova in the 1600's.

These are my values:
DYS393,DYS390,DYS19,DYS391,DYS385, DYS426,DYS388,DYS439,DYS389I,DYS392,DYS389II,DYS45 8,DYS459,DYS455,DYS454,DYS447,DYS437,DYS448,DYS449 ,DYS464,DYS460,Y-GATA-H4,YCAII,DYS456,DYS607,DYS576,DYS570,CDY,DYS442,DY S438
"13","25","16","10","11-14","12","12","10","13","11","29","13","9-10","11","11","24","14","20","33","14-15-15-16","11","12","19-23","15","15","18","19","33-39","14","11"

I can't seem to find a close match for my values either. Maybe I don't know how to properly search

Y-DNA TiP COMPARISON CHART with the said individual
Generations Percentage
4 31.36%
8 71.69%
12 90.91%
16 97.46%
20 99.35%
24 99.84%

With a Genetic Distance‡ of 3

Is there another way to check YMRCA with the individual?

Pribislav
01-03-2018, 05:22 PM
I match him on Ftdna. I don't want to display his personal information. But he is from Čitluk, Posušje(his ancestor at least). I was just viewing Porelko because they were discussing YP4278.( I didn't find him there) https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=662.0

I'm from the Golloborda region of Diber in Albania. As far as I know, I'm not supposed to have ancestry outside of this area. I initially assumed it may have come with the Rhodope Bogomils since they are mentioned as having come as refugees in the distant past. The Herzegovina link has me thinking it has something to do with Ottoman disturbances. I can't seem to find that much information. I have also heard of refugees from Kosova in the 1600's.

These are my values:
DYS393,DYS390,DYS19,DYS391,DYS385, DYS426,DYS388,DYS439,DYS389I,DYS392,DYS389II,DYS45 8,DYS459,DYS455,DYS454,DYS447,DYS437,DYS448,DYS449 ,DYS464,DYS460,Y-GATA-H4,YCAII,DYS456,DYS607,DYS576,DYS570,CDY,DYS442,DY S438
"13","25","16","10","11-14","12","12","10","13","11","29","13","9-10","11","11","24","14","20","33","14-15-15-16","11","12","19-23","15","15","18","19","33-39","14","11"

I can't seem to find a close match for my values either. Maybe I don't know how to properly search

Y-DNA TiP COMPARISON CHART with the said individual
Generations Percentage
4 31.36%
8 71.69%
12 90.91%
16 97.46%
20 99.35%
24 99.84%

With a Genetic Distance‡ of 3

Is there another way to check YMRCA with the individual?

YP4278 reaches highest percentage in Eastern Herzegovina (~4-5%), and you seem to have a connection with one particular cluster (H4=12; 456=15; 576=18; 570=19; 549=12). Unfortunately, none of the members of this cluster has been tested at FTDNA yet, but I can tell that you have three close matches, with two of them the difference is 2/18, and with third 1/16. The third one also shares two specific values with you (19=16 and 391=10), and differs only on 389ii (he has 30).

Dibran
01-03-2018, 05:48 PM
YP4278 reaches highest percentage in Eastern Herzegovina (~4-5%), and you seem to have a connection with one particular cluster (H4=12; 456=15; 576=18; 570=19; 549=12). Unfortunately, none of the members of this cluster has been tested at FTDNA yet, but I can tell that you have three close matches, with two of them the difference is 2/18, and with third 1/16. The third one also shares two specific values with you (19=16 and 391=10), and differs only on 389ii (he has 30).
Where are his matches from, and what are the TMRCA values?

Btw I get my Y elite in a couple weeks.

Pribislav
01-03-2018, 06:39 PM
Where are his matches from, and what are the TMRCA values?

Btw I get my Y elite in a couple weeks.

One is from around Ljubinje, the other two from around Mostar. TMRCA of this Serbian cluster is 1052-1150 years, based on STRs.

20596

trdbr1234
01-03-2018, 07:21 PM
YP4278 reaches highest percentage in Eastern Herzegovina (~4-5%), and you seem to have a connection with one particular cluster (H4=12; 456=15; 576=18; 570=19; 549=12). Unfortunately, none of the members of this cluster has been tested at FTDNA yet, but I can tell that you have three close matches, with two of them the difference is 2/18, and with third 1/16. The third one also shares two specific values with you (19=16 and 391=10), and differs only on 389ii (he has 30).

Thank you Pribislav.

Would you have the TMRCA?

Is this branch represented in Montenegro?

trdbr1234
01-03-2018, 07:22 PM
One is from around Ljubinje, the other two from around Mostar. TMRCA of this Serbian cluster is 1052-1150 years, based on STRs.

20596

Is mine with this cluster around the same time frame?

Dibran
01-03-2018, 07:36 PM
Is mine with this cluster around the same time frame?

Seems that way. You may have a more terminal SNP with a different TMRCA if you were to do a full Y. It appears(per this cluster) that this is the TMRCA between you and them. So I imagine it broke off en route to the area around 850-948 AD. Maybe this is when it was absorbed into Albanians. Albanian for about 1000 years it seems. Kind of like mine(assuming my TMRCA with my match).

Rigel
01-03-2018, 07:51 PM
How bout to start the new year with a nice R1a :)

My Haplo:
R-M198>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>YP4278>YP4441-A

What can you guys tell me about it?

Also, I have only 1 match at y37 and it is I believe a Croatian from Western Herzegovina. I was trying to read more on Porelko about this but was more confused than anything.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y35/

Welcome to the club. B) ;)

I noticed your results on the FTDNA R1a project, but there was no info regarding your background.

It would be great if that guy from Čitluk joined the R1a Project too.

Rigel
01-03-2018, 07:59 PM
Is mine with this cluster around the same time frame?

It's rather difficult to confidently estimate the TMRCA with such limited number of tested STRs.

You have been placed in the YP4278>YP4441 subclade at the R1a project, based on your haplotype. Perhaps it would be best to test the YP4441 SNP first.

Pribislav
01-03-2018, 08:21 PM
Is this branch represented in Montenegro?

There is just a few YP4278 in Montenegro, mostly in the western part, but none from the subcluster closest to you.


Is mine with this cluster around the same time frame?

I would say it's around the same time frame, give or take 100 years. Only one of eight YP4278 Serbs tested at FTDNA has 459=9-10 and none have CDY=33-39, but IMO members of this subcluster closest to you might have these values.

trdbr1234
01-03-2018, 09:11 PM
Welcome to the club. B) ;)

I noticed your results on the FTDNA R1a project, but there was no info regarding your background.

It would be great if that guy from Čitluk joined the R1a Project too.

B) Seems like a cool club. B)

I've emailed him but he hasn't responded.


It's rather difficult to confidently estimate the TMRCA with such limited number of tested STRs.

You have been placed in the YP4278>YP4441 subclade at the R1a project, based on your haplotype. Perhaps it would be best to test the YP4441 SNP first.

I understand.

I might just wait a bit before I start testing further. From what it seems, only deep testing might provide more answers.


There is just a few YP4278 in Montenegro, mostly in the western part, but none from the subcluster closest to you.

I would say it's around the same time frame, give or take 100 years. Only one of eight YP4278 Serbs tested at FTDNA has 459=9-10 and none have CDY=33-39, but IMO members of this subcluster closest to you might have these values.

Thank you once again, Pribislav.

trdbr1234
01-03-2018, 09:13 PM
Seems that way. You may have a more terminal SNP with a different TMRCA if you were to do a full Y. It appears(per this cluster) that this is the TMRCA between you and them. So I imagine it broke off en route to the area around 850-948 AD. Maybe this is when it was absorbed into Albanians. Albanian for about 1000 years it seems. Kind of like mine(assuming my TMRCA with my match).

Simply more questions. loll

I imagine in 5 or less years we will have determinate answers, with the way this science is moving.

TuaMan
01-20-2018, 03:24 AM
Whenever you're ready to test at YSEQ, I recommend going straight for Y21878: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=45117&osCsid=e0995ed9cf8b2089734c74d07fb5cae1

Or you can do the whole J2b-M12 SNP Pack here (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=45234). It's your choice. However, I'm pretty confident you will be positive for Y21878 (aka Y21877 on the tree below), and this "shortcut" will save you some cash ;)
In addition to a Krasniq and a Kryezi tribe member, there is also two Thaēi J2b2 members who might be Y21878 also, or at the very least Z1295+
See my previous comment below and the tree:

Hey Trojet,

Sorry for the long delay, but just reaching back out to see if you still feel confident about me being Y21878? It's been a while and I'm not gonna put this off any further, but I just wanted to see if your recommendation still holds. If you think there's a reasonable chance I could be something else, I don't mind shelling out the $88 for the whole J2b pack though.

Trojet
01-20-2018, 02:53 PM
Hey Trojet,

Sorry for the long delay, but just reaching back out to see if you still feel confident about me being Y21878? It's been a while and I'm not gonna put this off any further, but I just wanted to see if your recommendation still holds. If you think there's a reasonable chance I could be something else, I don't mind shelling out the $88 for the whole J2b pack though.

Yes, I still think you will be Y21878+ but not 100% sure. There is a couple of SNPs downstream of Y21878 that have been discovered more recently, but not covered by the YSEQ J2b SNP Panel. I plan on proposing an update to YSEQ so they include these two as well. Once this is done, it would make sense to go for the whole Panel. So, now I would actually suggest to wait until the YSEQ J2b-M12 Panel is updated :P

TuaMan
01-22-2018, 09:02 PM
No worries, whenever that panel is updated just let me know either through PM or a post in this thread, and I'll put in my order.

J Man
02-18-2018, 03:10 PM
This project is still growing quite nicely congrats to the admins and participants...I noticed that there is now a Y-DNA haoplogroup J1 sample from the Berisha tribe. That is a bit unexpected and interesting.

http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/

J Man
02-24-2018, 03:51 PM
Is this individual of Arvanite ancestry along his paternal line?

Tasikas Greqi (Arvanit) J2b2-L283>Z1296>Y23094

Trojet
02-25-2018, 02:07 AM
Is this individual of Arvanite ancestry along his paternal line?

Tasikas Greqi (Arvanit) J2b2-L283>Z1296>Y23094

Yes, that's what he said (as noted). I have no other info besides what's posted.

Tįltos
03-03-2018, 04:25 AM
This project is still growing quite nicely congrats to the admins and participants...I noticed that there is now a Y-DNA haoplogroup J1 sample from the Berisha tribe. That is a bit unexpected and interesting.

http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/

Thanks for pointing this out!

Did he test at YSEQ? Does anyone know if he is willing to test anymore SNPs? You guys might remember that my cousin also received an unexpected result for our Arbėreshė line. He is also J-L858+(J-Z1884). His final result is J-ZS1711 from the FTDNA J1-SNP Pack.

Gabry
03-03-2018, 08:00 AM
Hi! I’m an albanian(from south) and i discoverd my ydna to be I-CTS10228

reignman
03-03-2018, 08:08 PM
Hi! I’m an albanian(from south) and i discoverd my ydna to be I-CTS10228

Congratulations on your result!
How many Y-STR markers do you have?
Do you plan to take any additional test to discover your subclade under I-CTS10228?

Gabry
03-04-2018, 10:00 AM
I’m sorry but I omiss to say that i under go this test with Livingdna so they give me this I2- subclade ... I think maybe in future I’ll take another test to Know more about my ydna ...

Gabry
03-04-2018, 05:01 PM
Sorry but I want to know if I’m the only albanian member of Anthrogenica that has I2 as ydna ! Thank you ! And i also want to know if there are others than albanians that have my own y dna haplogroup

Kelmendasi
03-04-2018, 05:14 PM
Sorry but I want to know if I’m the only albanian member of Anthrogenica that has I2 as ydna ! Thank you ! And i also want to know if there are others than albanians that have my own y dna haplogroup
There are other Albanians who belong to I2-CTS10228 from the north and south