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JerryS.
03-04-2018, 10:27 PM
I guess at this point I should bow out of the discussion. my Italian ancestry comes from my father's mother (mtDNA) which she got from her father (X gene). I get some Balkan results on some calculator models, some even list Albanian but there really is no way of telling if my great grandfather (from Calabria) had any Arbereshe heritage. no older generations to test for such.

Tßltos
03-05-2018, 04:38 AM
I guess at this point I should bow out of the discussion. my Italian ancestry comes from my father's mother (mtDNA) which she got from her father (X gene). I get some Balkan results on some calculator models, some even list Albanian but there really is no way of telling if my great grandfather (from Calabria) had any Arbereshe heritage. no older generations to test for such.

I would not worry which line you have the ancestry on. I understand your concern because everyone tends to just discuss Y DNA, but both projects that are listed in the first post of this thread utilize Y DNA and mtDNA.

A fairly new and small project that I recommend for you to join is the Italo-Albanian DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/groups/italo-albanian-dna-project/about).

EDIT-In any event all the Y DNA that is discussed here does tie back into your lineage somewhere back in time. ;) Stay interested :)

Skerdilaidas
03-05-2018, 02:03 PM
I would not worry which line you have the ancestry on. I understand your concern because everyone tends to just discuss Y DNA, but both projects that are listed in the first post of this thread utilize Y DNA and mtDNA.

A fairly new and small project that I recommend for you to join is the Italo-Albanian DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/groups/italo-albanian-dna-project/about).

EDIT-In any event all the Y DNA that is discussed here does tie back into your lineage somewhere back in time. ;) Stay interested :)

Are you in that project? I would be curious to know the ydna of the Basta family.

Tßltos
03-05-2018, 06:44 PM
Are you in that project? I would be curious to know the ydna of the Basta family.

Yes I am in the project.

No Y DNA test done on Basta yet. I am working on having a male cousin from my Basta line take a Y test this year. A female cousin (Basta) has tested in recent months. I am hoping she can help me convince her brother or nephew to take one. Fingers crossed it works out. I'll let you know.

olive picker
03-05-2018, 10:46 PM
Yes I am in the project.

No Y DNA test done on Basta yet. I am working on having a male cousin from my Basta line take a Y test this year. A female cousin (Basta) has tested in recent months. I am hoping she can help me convince her brother or nephew to take one. Fingers crossed it works out. I'll let you know.

That would be incredible.

Dibran
03-06-2018, 01:03 PM
Yes I am in the project.

No Y DNA test done on Basta yet. I am working on having a male cousin from my Basta line take a Y test this year. A female cousin (Basta) has tested in recent months. I am hoping she can help me convince her brother or nephew to take one. Fingers crossed it works out. I'll let you know.

This the line of Giorgio Basta?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgio_Basta

Tßltos
03-07-2018, 05:26 PM
This the line of Giorgio Basta?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgio_Basta

That is a great question. In recent years I have wondered myself. I have been learning little by little about my family from there. You see I started out thinking we were just Italian. :)

The village that my family comes from has many Basta families. Giorgio was ArbŰreshŰ so good chance. What is not clear to me is did he have children? Did he have siblings that went on to have children? I would guess so.

Besides Basta, Kastrioti, and Reres are still present in the village. The village is one of the original settlements of ArbŰreshŰ. It was given as a reward to the military of Skanderbeg and their families for helping the King of Naples with a rebellion by barons in Southern Italy.

Kelmendasi
03-07-2018, 05:37 PM
That is a great question. In recent years I have wondered myself. I have been learning little by little about my family from there. You see I started out thinking we were just Italian. :)

The village that my family comes from has many Basta families. Giorgio was ArbŰreshŰ so good chance. What is not clear to me is did he have children? Did he have siblings that went on to have children? I would guess so.

Besides Basta, Kastrioti, and Reres are still present in the village. The village is one of the original settlements of ArbŰreshŰ. It was given as a reward to the military of Skanderbeg and their families for helping the King of Naples with a rebellion by barons in Southern Italy.
Interesting, so there are people going by the surname of Kastrioti in Arbereshe communities. Would be cool if we could see some of the Ydna results from the project so far

Tßltos
03-07-2018, 06:01 PM
Interesting, so there are people going by the surname of Kastrioti in Arbereshe communities. Would be cool if we could see some of the Ydna results from the project so far

There are not many results so far. It is a very new project. Hopefully in time people that still live in the ArbŰreshŰ villages will test (along with the diaspora), and the project grows.

Kelmendasi
03-07-2018, 07:18 PM
There are not many results so far. It is a very new project. Hopefully in time people that still live in the ArbŰreshŰ villages will test (along with the diaspora), and the project grows.
Nice that you guys have made a project. What's the dominant haplo so far or is there not a dominant one as the sample size is too small?

Tßltos
03-07-2018, 07:26 PM
Nice that you guys have made a project. What's the dominant haplo so far or is there not a dominant one as the sample size is too small?

Thanks, and yes the sample size is too small. Hopefully in time that will change. :)

TuaMan
03-31-2018, 04:53 PM
Just dropped my YSEQ J2b panel in the mail. Should get to the laboratory in a about a week and half, and per YSEQ they take up to five weeks to process your results, so hopefully they should be in around the end of May/early June. We'll see what happens.

mems101
05-05-2018, 11:45 PM
Hey Dudes!

How do I get myself tested? My family are from Kosova, Dad is from the Sopi tribe and lived in Sojeve, and my Mum is from the Krasniq tribe and lived in Shtime.

Really overwhelmed with all this as theres a bunch of technical Jargon & info I just dont understand. Ideally, I would want to find out as much as I can.

Dibran
05-09-2018, 07:04 PM
Hey Dudes!

How do I get myself tested? My family are from Kosova, Dad is from the Sopi tribe and lived in Sojeve, and my Mum is from the Krasniq tribe and lived in Shtime.

Really overwhelmed with all this as theres a bunch of technical Jargon & info I just dont understand. Ideally, I would want to find out as much as I can.

So far per Albanian Bloodlines Project, Sopi clan are E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625: http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/

This is likely your paternal placement as well.

To start I would test with FTDNA Y37 test to start. I would also join the Albanian Bloodlines Project on FTDNA as well.

https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna

Albanian Bloodlines:https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/results

Kelmendasi
05-10-2018, 01:53 PM
My uncle's SNP results are in and they are basal E-V13>CTS5856*

Dibran
05-10-2018, 03:14 PM
My uncle's SNP results are in and they are basal E-V13>CTS5856*

basal interesting. no occurrences on y full yet.

Illyro-Vlach
05-10-2018, 08:53 PM
Thanks for directing me to this site guys, it's great.

http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/

Leut
05-11-2018, 08:18 PM
my tribe is Krasniq, maybe we have the same ancestor

mems101
06-03-2018, 10:25 PM
Possibly mate! Where abouts in Kosova are you!?

Tßltos
06-05-2018, 04:55 AM
I just noticed at FTDNA, all kits from my ArbŰreshŰ line have a distant match to someone who lists Gashi (North Albania). B)

Tßltos
06-05-2018, 02:57 PM
This morning I also found two more new matches for my mother and myself. They are to people who are from the county of Tirana. Edit-But just noticed that one of them also has some ties to the Kurvelesh region in the south. All very interesting!

Camaj Curanaj
07-09-2018, 11:02 PM
Was browsing through and very interesting indeed. What tests do I run and what info do we have about these surnames thus far?

Kelmendasi
07-10-2018, 01:47 PM
Was browsing through and very interesting indeed. What tests do I run and what info do we have about these surnames thus far?
For Ydna I would suggest you do Yseq Alpha-Beta http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=34 or one of the Ftdna ydna tests(Y37 is usually recommended) https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna. From what clan or region are you from, by Camaj I would guess that you are Hoti?

Kelmendasi
07-10-2018, 02:20 PM
Reason I asked Bane is because from what I have seen there are two unrelated families with the same last name like this fella that has tested in Kuš. One family are Mrnjavcevic while the others are Nuculevic/Nuculaj from Koje who are actually with origins from Kastrat. Not sure if you're aware, but there are traditions that the ancestral father of Kastrati was supposedly related to Drekalovici, which complicates things as you can see. Unfortunately we don't have a V13 Kastrati tested at ftdna yet to rule out that possibility, so it would be nice if we could somehow find out where is this fella from and if he is from Mrnjavcevic branch or Koje.
From what I could tell the people from the Serbian DNA project have said that the people with his surname are actually from Koje originally and from the Nuculaj of Kastrat. They say that this certain family had converted to the Orthodox church and had then adopted a Serbian identity and became part of Kuqi(perhaps Mrnjavcevic branch). I know that the Nuculaj still have an Albanian identity despite their surname now being Nuculovic but im not sure if there are some people from the specific family that I am talking about who are still Albanian. "Albansko katoličko bratstvo Nuculovići iz Koća i srpska bratstva Nikići i Pajovići iz Lazorca u Orahovu su prema predanju albanskog porekla i doselili su se iz Kastrata. Nikići i Pajovići su se prema istom predanju posrbili i prešli na pravoslavlje pa slave Mitrovdan kao i ostala bratstva u Lazorcu." https://www.poreklo.rs/2017/11/19/rodovi-starobalkanskog-porekla-u-crnoj-gori/?lang=lat. If they actually are from Nuculaj then, as you said, it will be really interesting as it would suggest that a branch of Kastrat is actually from Ndreka/Drekal of Kuqi. I believe that the family from which the guy we're talking about is from, is originally from the Nuculaj or Kastrati who live in Koje.

Camaj Curanaj
07-11-2018, 04:13 AM
For Ydna I would suggest you do Yseq Alpha-Beta . From what clan or region are you from, by Camaj I would guess that you are Hoti?

That is correct, Hoti Father (Tuzi) and Trish (Curanaj aka Curanovic) Mother.

I hit submit reply but it didn't let me post due to the links in your quote. Upon hitting back, I recall that my Mom's family is actually Gjurashaj (sp) but fell into blood and left trish for Gusinje a few hundred years back.

Kelmendasi
07-11-2018, 12:23 PM
That is correct, Hoti Father (Tuzi) and Trish (Curanaj aka Curanovic) Mother.

I hit submit reply but it didn't let me post due to the links in your quote. Upon hitting back, I recall that my Mom's family is actually Gjurashaj (sp) but fell into blood and left trish for Gusinje a few hundred years back.
Interesting, Gjurashaj are originally from Nikmarash in Triesh if I am not mistaken and descend from Cur Nenad Pati who was the younger brother of Marash Nenad Pati from who the Arapaj, Markgilaj and Cacaj come from, although ultimately both brothers stem from Nik Marash which means that they come from Ban Keqi and not from the Benkaj/Bekaj. Camaj are from Vuksanlekaj iirc in Hoti but they had migrated to Vuksanlekaj a while back as the new Hoti from which the Camaj are part of, are said to have migrated to Hot. Camaj are part of the Traboin bajrak of Hoti. Would be great if you could test yourself and a male from your mothers side as it would be great to have a Camaj sample for Hoti and a Trieshi sample that comes from Bankeqi as we only have one

KingofPhoenicia001
09-13-2018, 05:48 PM
Hello! Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I'm looking for some information about my Albanian heritage. My great grandfather migrated from ShkodŰr to Lebanon in the early 1900's (possibly due to Balkan Wars?). The surname is Kojo/Koujou and it seems after they left they cut all ties with Albania, however I had family members visit in the 90's and again a couple years ago. If anyone can help me figure out why they left for sure or any information on this family, it would be a big help! My mtDNA is also from my Albanian side X2i... my mother has Albanian on both sides from the same family, in case anyone was confused since I said great grandfather.

Gheg
09-15-2018, 04:19 AM
Hello! Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I'm looking for some information about my Albanian heritage. My great grandfather migrated from ShkodŰr to Lebanon in the early 1900's (possibly due to Balkan Wars?). The surname is Kojo/Koujou and it seems after they left they cut all ties with Albania, however I had family members visit in the 90's and again a couple years ago. If anyone can help me figure out why they left for sure or any information on this family, it would be a big help! My mtDNA is also from my Albanian side X2i... my mother has Albanian on both sides from the same family, in case anyone was confused since I said great grandfather.

Are there any living male descendants of the man? If so I would test their Ydna. "Kojo" or "Koujou" doesn't sound like a typical Albanian last name, perhaps it was spelled differently.

KingofPhoenicia001
09-15-2018, 07:25 PM
Are there any living male descendants of the man? If so I would test their Ydna. "Kojo" or "Koujou" doesn't sound like a typical Albanian last name, perhaps it was spelled differently.

There are male descendants, but they have not been tested. I have seen Kojo's on Facebook who are mostly from Elbasan not ShkodŰr. Looking at the Albanian alphabet it might be spelled Koxho/Kuxhu or Kogjo/Kugju... the j is not a y sound like in Albanian.

Ownstyler
09-17-2018, 07:40 AM
Many people from the northern part of Albania are members of a clan. Do you know which clan your ancestor belonged to? Or do you have any other information, like the surname of his mother or his wife, or anything else?

Popeye
09-17-2018, 09:18 AM
J2b2 L283 seems more common among the Ghegs of the North (30%) than in Tosks (9%).

Kelmendasi
09-19-2018, 01:06 PM
Hello! Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I'm looking for some information about my Albanian heritage. My great grandfather migrated from ShkodŰr to Lebanon in the early 1900's (possibly due to Balkan Wars?). The surname is Kojo/Koujou and it seems after they left they cut all ties with Albania, however I had family members visit in the 90's and again a couple years ago. If anyone can help me figure out why they left for sure or any information on this family, it would be a big help! My mtDNA is also from my Albanian side X2i... my mother has Albanian on both sides from the same family, in case anyone was confused since I said great grandfather.
Maybe it's Koja instead of Kojo? Koja is a clan(more like village with families that have origin from multiple clans) in the Malesi e madhe region although in the Montenegrin part, perhaps some moved to Shkodra

KingofPhoenicia001
09-19-2018, 05:46 PM
Many people from the northern part of Albania are members of a clan. Do you know which clan your ancestor belonged to? Or do you have any other information, like the surname of his mother or his wife, or anything else?
The problem is I donĺt know much because he died very young so a lot of information is just lost. He had the title of ôAghaö and the family was very rich when they made it to Lebanon, but thatĺs about it.

Kelmendasi
09-19-2018, 05:54 PM
The problem is I don’t know much because he died very young so a lot of information is just lost. He had the title of “Agha” and the family was very rich when they made it to Lebanon, but that’s about it.
Many of the Albanians that moved to Lebanon during the Ottoman empire were part of the higher classes so him being an Agha makes sense. As far as I know the Albanians were brought into the area either as soldiers(Janisarries) or for admin purposes. An example of an Albanian that moved to Lebanon was Pashko Vasa, a governor of Lebanon from Shkodra(although originally his family came from Mirdita) who was a Catholic. When your Albanian side came to Lebanon were they Catholic or Muslim?

KingofPhoenicia001
09-20-2018, 02:18 AM
Many of the Albanians that moved to Lebanon during the Ottoman empire were part of the higher classes so him being an Agha makes sense. As far as I know the Albanians were brought into the area either as soldiers(Janisarries) or for admin purposes. An example of an Albanian that moved to Lebanon was Pashko Vasa, a governor of Lebanon from Shkodra(although originally his family came from Mirdita) who was a Catholic. When your Albanian side came to Lebanon were they Catholic or Muslim?

Muslims and I’m sure they left Albania after the Ottoman Empire fell... however I think he did speak Turkish. I just know they left because of a war, which I’m thinking was the Balkan war.

LabŰria
09-20-2018, 03:04 AM
There are also orthodox Albanians with the surname Koja.

Fungene
09-22-2018, 12:27 PM
Not sure where to put this, but Iron Age Iapygians of Apulia are alleged to be from Illyria. So, in case it might be of interest to you, here is recent information on the mtDNA of 15 individuals buried in Botromagno, between 7th-4th centuries BCE.
https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/bitstream/11375/22810/2/PhD_Dissertation_Emery_Final.pdf

LIAV4 U4b1a1a1
LIAV7 V18
LIAV8 H1
LIAV11 H6a1a
LIAV12 J2b1a2
LIAV20 U5b2c
LIAV29 H5'36
LIAV31 U5a1
LIAV32 H
LIAV33 H
LIAV37 U3b1b
LIAV38 U4a1
LIAV40 H
LIAV43 U2e3
LIAV45 H2

Skerdilaidas
09-23-2018, 03:13 AM
Not sure where to put this, but Iron Age Iapygians of Apulia are alleged to be from Illyria. So, in case it might be of interest to you, here is recent information on the mtDNA of 15 individuals buried in Botromagno, between 7th-4th centuries BCE.
https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/bitstream/11375/22810/2/PhD_Dissertation_Emery_Final.pdf

LIAV4 U4b1a1a1
LIAV7 V18
LIAV8 H1
LIAV11 H6a1a
LIAV12 J2b1a2
LIAV20 U5b2c
LIAV29 H5'36
LIAV31 U5a1
LIAV32 H
LIAV33 H
LIAV37 U3b1b
LIAV38 U4a1
LIAV40 H
LIAV43 U2e3
LIAV45 H2
Thanks for posting it here. Disappointing however, no y-dna.

Gheg
11-04-2018, 03:29 PM
There are male descendants, but they have not been tested. I have seen Kojo's on Facebook who are mostly from Elbasan not ShkodŰr. Looking at the Albanian alphabet it might be spelled Koxho/Kuxhu or Kogjo/Kugju... the j is not a y sound like in Albanian.

I think the most helpful thing you could do is test someone from that line and then ask for help from the Albanian project admins. I wouldn't be surprised if a distant relative in Albania was already tested. Good luck!

khanabadoshi
11-13-2018, 07:45 PM
Can you guys help me analyze an Albanian result? Which calculators should I run?

Kelmendasi
11-18-2018, 01:00 PM
A member of the Dushmani family of Dukagjini has tested and the result has come out as E-V13>PH1246. Their PH1246 seems to be pretty distant from the Vasojevici(BY14151) and Rajovici(BY14160) PH1246. It is most likely that he forms his own clade within PH1246. PH1246 has also been found among an Arbereshe sample

cvolt
11-18-2018, 01:10 PM
My dad is J2b2 but I don't know how. Is there a way to pinpoint where it may have come from?

Dibran
11-27-2018, 08:00 PM
My dad is J2b2 but I don't know how. Is there a way to pinpoint where it may have come from?

What is your known/suspected ancestry? Also, which company did he test with? There are some ancient clades for instance that are very distantly related to Albanian J2b2 in some Northern Europeans. If you have STRs(assuming you tested FTDNA/YSEQ) post them here, I am sure the admin of the project could chime in an help. If its 23andme, I recommend having your father test FTDNA/YSEQ and join the J2b project to learn more.

J Man
11-28-2018, 02:10 AM
A member of the Dushmani family of Dukagjini has tested and the result has come out as E-V13>PH1246. Their PH1246 seems to be pretty distant from the Vasojevici(BY14151) and Rajovici(BY14160) PH1246. It is most likely that he forms his own clade within PH1246. PH1246 has also been found among an Arbereshe sample

This is interesting...Based on current E-V13 Vasojevici results it seems quite likely that the Vasojevici are indeed Slavicized Albanians or Illyrians.

Pribislav
11-28-2018, 01:24 PM
This is interesting...Based on current E-V13 Vasojevici results it seems quite likely that the Vasojevici are indeed Slavicized Albanians or Illyrians.

I haven't seen any Albanian whose haplotype resembles that of Vasojevići, so your "quite likely" isn't that likely. Their subclade might've been present among some Illyrian tribe(s), but they haven't been Illyrians for a long time when slavicization happened, they rather were Romanized Vlachs. Anyway, two members of Vasojevići cluster recently ordered WGS, so we'll hopefully have their subclade defined early next year.

Johane Derite
11-28-2018, 01:38 PM
they rather were Romanized Vlachs.

"Romanized Vlachs" is a meaningless tautology, since a Vlach is by definition someone speaking a Romanized language (i.e. Romanian dialect).

It doesn't elucidate what the ethnicity would have been prior to what we now know as Vlachs and possibly is even an attempt to cover it up.


This is from the famous linguist Eric Hamp on what Romanian would likely have been before "romanized":


"We will inspect Romanian, because I am convinced that Romanian is the descendant of a Latinization of an autochthonous population which earlier spoke an Albanoid Indo-European language whereas Albanian represents the continuation of kindred dialects which, though accepting many loans and cultural influences, escaped Latinization.

We may then expect, as in other instances, that Romanian may preserve in Latin dress the syntax and semantics of an earlier Albanoid form. "

Eric Hamp
Pg 130, Bono Homini Donum: Essays in Historical Linguistics in Memory of J. Alexander Kerns



So J Man was not so incorrect.

J Man
11-28-2018, 03:16 PM
I haven't seen any Albanian whose haplotype resembles that of Vasojevići, so your "quite likely" isn't that likely. Their subclade might've been present among some Illyrian tribe(s), but they haven't been Illyrians for a long time when slavicization happened, they rather were Romanized Vlachs. Anyway, two members of Vasojevići cluster recently ordered WGS, so we'll hopefully have their subclade defined early next year.

Yes more time and testing will shed more light on this topic. The Vlach theory is interesting and certainly possible as well.

Pribislav
11-28-2018, 03:41 PM
"Romanized Vlachs" is a meaningless tautology, since a Vlach is by definition someone speaking a Romanized language (i.e. Romanian dialect).

It doesn't elucidate what the ethnicity would have been prior to what we now know as Vlachs and possibly is even an attempt to cover it up.

Well, I wrote they (PH1246 Vlachs) were most likely Illyrians prior to being romanized, but when they were later slavicizied they havent had Illyrian identity anymore. So romanized Vlachs became slavicizied, not Illyrians.


This is from the famous linguist Eric Hamp on what Romanian would likely have been before "romanized":

"We will inspect Romanian, because I am convinced that Romanian is the descendant of a Latinization of an autochthonous population which earlier spoke an Albanoid Indo-European language whereas Albanian represents the continuation of kindred dialects which, though accepting many loans and cultural influences, escaped Latinization.

We may then expect, as in other instances, that Romanian may preserve in Latin dress the syntax and semantics of an earlier Albanoid form. "

Eric Hamp
Pg 130, Bono Homini Donum: Essays in Historical Linguistics in Memory of J. Alexander Kerns

I fully agree with this, I myself wrote earlier about close relationship between early Albanian and early Romanian language on another topic. I find it most likely their ancestral language could've been some form of Tracoid dialect, possibly Bessian, that became latinised in one part of the population (ancestors of Romanians), and the other part escaped latinisation and moved westwards into modern Albania (ancestors of Albanians).

Johane Derite
11-28-2018, 04:52 PM
I fully agree with this, I myself wrote earlier about close relationship between early Albanian and early Romanian language on another topic. I find it most likely their ancestral language could've been some form of Tracoid dialect, possibly Bessian, that became latinised in one part of the population (ancestors of Romanians), and the other part escaped latinisation and moved westwards into modern Albania (ancestors of Albanians).

I don't subscribe to the Bessi hypothesis as there are many problems, like the glosses that place Albanian language in Epirus, Macedonia, Moesia territory since before Romans (Martin Huld)

Also there are linguistic issues:

"Most Illyrian names are composed of a single unit; many Thracian ones are made of two units joined together. Several Thracian place-names end in -para, for example, which is thought to mean 'ford', or -diza, which is thought to mean 'fortress'. Thus in the territory of the Bessi, a well-known Thracian tribe, we have the town of Bessapara, 'ford of the Bessi'. The structure here is the same as in many European languages: thus the 'town of Peter' can be called Peterborough, Petrograd, Petersburg, Pierreville, and so on. But the crucial fact is that this structure is impossible in Albanian, which can only say 'Qytet i Pjetrit', not 'Pjeterqytet'. If para were the Albanian for 'ford', then the place-name would have to be 'Para e Besseve'; this might be reduced in time to something like 'Parabessa', but it could never become 'Bessapara'. And what is at stake here is not some superficial feature of the language, which might easily change over time, but a profound structural principle. This is one of the strongest available arguments to show that Albanian cannot have developed out of Thracian."

Noel Malcolm, Kosovo: A Short History
Chapter 2: Origins: Serbs, Albanians and Vlachs

Kelmendasi
11-28-2018, 04:58 PM
I haven't seen any Albanian whose haplotype resembles that of Vasojevići, so your "quite likely" isn't that likely. Their subclade might've been present among some Illyrian tribe(s), but they haven't been Illyrians for a long time when slavicization happened, they rather were Romanized Vlachs. Anyway, two members of Vasojevići cluster recently ordered WGS, so we'll hopefully have their subclade defined early next year.
The Vlach origin of the Vasojevici seems dubious to me, I think people exaggerate the impact that Vlachs had. Albanian E-PH1246 has started to come out so the haplogroups is definitely present among Albanians. The fact that Vasojevici has stories claiming blood relation with certain Albanian clans, has a native Balkan haplogroup and is E-PH1246 points more towards them possibly being of Albanian origin.

J Man
11-28-2018, 05:24 PM
Speaking of Vlachs in the Albanian DNA Project the Vlach Y-DNA results so far seem to be quite heterogeneous.

Skerdilaidas
11-29-2018, 05:18 AM
Speaking of Vlachs in the Albanian DNA Project the Vlach Y-DNA results so far seem to be quite heterogeneous.

Very heterogeneous indeed. Interestingly enough few families here and there seem to be closely related to us, belonging to some of our major clusters under BY611, L283, Z16988 etc.

Pribislav
11-29-2018, 02:21 PM
The Vlach origin of the Vasojevici seems dubious to me, I think people exaggerate the impact that Vlachs had. Albanian E-PH1246 has started to come out so the haplogroups is definitely present among Albanians. The fact that Vasojevici has stories claiming blood relation with certain Albanian clans, has a native Balkan haplogroup and is E-PH1246 points more towards them possibly being of Albanian origin.

Well, no offense, but "seems dubious to me" isn't really an argument. And romanized Vlachs had great impact, at least genetic, on all Balkan peoples, including Albanians. I've never doubted PH1246 is present among Albanians, after all it is a very old subclade, and is present both among Serbs and Greeks, so it would be odd not to be present among Albanians. What I said is I haven't seen Albanian haplotypes which are close to Vasojevići haplotype. On the other hand, the closest haplotypes to that of Vasojevići are found in Hercegovina, Northwest Bosnia and Croatia, so Vasojevići being of Albanian origin seems a bit too far-fetched. More reasonable explanation is PH1246 is of Vlach origin, and it's various subclades had been assimilated into different peoples (Serbs, Albanians, Greeks). And those stories about blood relations between various tribes are just that, stories. We all know the famous story about five brothers from which five tribes allegedly descended (Vasojevići, Krasniqi, Hoti, Ozrinići and Piperi), but it turned out they belong to several different haplogroups (E-PH1246, J2b2-L283, I2-PH908 and R1b-BY611).

LabŰria
11-29-2018, 03:33 PM
Speaking of Vlachs in the Albanian DNA Project the Vlach Y-DNA results so far seem to be quite heterogeneous.
Because there are different groups of Vlachs in Albania.
There are some of them who live in the cities, not those who settled during the XX century. These people are called today Vlachs but they are not Vlachs.
There is a second category of those who live in the villages.
And there is an third category of them, the nomadic tribes who were sheperds and were always in movement but after that in Albania communists took the power after the WWII, this people stopped to live as nomads and created their villages. There is even a little bit of racism between these group of Vlachs.

Kelmendasi
11-29-2018, 04:01 PM
Well, no offense, but "seems dubious to me" isn't really an argument. And romanized Vlachs had great impact, at least genetic, on all Balkan peoples, including Albanians. I've never doubted PH1246 is present among Albanians, after all it is a very old subclade, and is present both among Serbs and Greeks, so it would be odd not to be present among Albanians. What I said is I haven't seen Albanian haplotypes which are close to Vasojevići haplotype. On the other hand, the closest haplotypes to that of Vasojevići are found in Hercegovina, Northwest Bosnia and Croatia, so Vasojevići being of Albanian origin seems a bit too far-fetched. More reasonable explanation is PH1246 is of Vlach origin, and it's various subclades had been assimilated into different peoples (Serbs, Albanians, Greeks). And those stories about blood relations between various tribes are just that, stories. We all know the famous story about five brothers from which five tribes allegedly descended (Vasojevići, Krasniqi, Hoti, Ozrinići and Piperi), but it turned out they belong to several different haplogroups (E-PH1246, J2b2-L283, I2-PH908 and R1b-BY611).
Me saying that it's dubious isn't an argument, it's just me saying that it doesn't seem likely as of now. Vlachs didn't have a great impact on Albanians in terms of genetics(and many other aspects), going by what we know as of now. So far we don't have any example or sample of a E-PH1246 Vlach/Aromanian. So in terms of genetics, as of now, that theory doesn't hold much water. The PH1246 being assimilated by Albanians and Greeks from a Vlach source seems highly unlikely, both Albanians and Greeks seem to have very old and probably basal clades of PH1246, likely they form their own groups. You can't attribute it or link it to the Vlachs in anyway, as well as Vlachs not really being a proper ethnic group but rather just a bunch of people who started speaking Latin. They are just stories but they must have had some sort of relationship(possibly not blood) in order for them all to have similar stories.

Skerdilaidas
11-29-2018, 06:45 PM
Well, no offense, but "seems dubious to me" isn't really an argument. And romanized Vlachs had great impact, at least genetic, on all Balkan peoples, including Albanians. I've never doubted PH1246 is present among Albanians, after all it is a very old subclade, and is present both among Serbs and Greeks, so it would be odd not to be present among Albanians. What I said is I haven't seen Albanian haplotypes which are close to Vasojevići haplotype. On the other hand, the closest haplotypes to that of Vasojevići are found in Hercegovina, Northwest Bosnia and Croatia, so Vasojevići being of Albanian origin seems a bit too far-fetched. More reasonable explanation is PH1246 is of Vlach origin, and it's various subclades had been assimilated into different peoples (Serbs, Albanians, Greeks). And those stories about blood relations between various tribes are just that, stories. We all know the famous story about five brothers from which five tribes allegedly descended (Vasojevići, Krasniqi, Hoti, Ozrinići and Piperi), but it turned out they belong to several different haplogroups (E-PH1246, J2b2-L283, I2-PH908 and R1b-BY611).
Vlah is an umbrella term that you serbs like to use a lot when it doesn’t suit you. Fact remains that Vasojevici (PH1246) and Piperi (BY611) have traditions of being related to Albanian clans like Krasniqi & Nikaj (J2b-PH1751), Hoti (J2b-CTS11100) and Trieshi - Bankeqi (Z16661). Same traditions also exists among the aftermentioned Albanian clans. Obviously they had some sort of cultural bond in the past for such traditions to have developed. That they are not related paternally doesn’t mean much, the important thing here is that all of them seem to belong to ‘native’ haplos. Cultural bonds seem to have been just as strong as blood in some instanced among our clans. For example similar traditions also exist among Shala (PF7563), Shoshi (V13) and Mirdita (J2b-L283) - and in fact they didn’t intermarry until like 50 years ago. Even though as you can see neither of them are paternally related to each other.

Pribislav
11-29-2018, 10:12 PM
Vlah is an umbrella term that you serbs like to use a lot when it doesn’t suit you. Fact remains that Vasojevici (PH1246) and Piperi (BY611) have traditions of being related to Albanian clans like Krasniqi & Nikaj (J2b-PH1751), Hoti (J2b-CTS11100) and Trieshi - Bankeqi (Z16661). Same traditions also exists among the aftermentioned Albanian clans. Obviously they had some sort of cultural bond in the past for such traditions to have developed. That they are not related paternally doesn’t mean much, the important thing here is that all of them seem to belong to ‘native’ haplos. Cultural bonds seem to have been just as strong as blood in some instanced among our clans. For example similar traditions also exist among Shala (PF7563), Shoshi (V13) and Mirdita (J2b-L283) - and in fact they didn’t intermarry until like 50 years ago. Even though as you can see neither of them are paternally related to each other.

Vlachs are/were reality, and their genetic contribution to all Balkan peoples is irrefutable, so deal with it. Of course there is a bond between these tribes, it is perfectly natural as they were living next to each other for centuries, but that doesn't mean all of them were culturally and linguistically the same, and in fact we know they weren't.

LabŰria
11-29-2018, 10:22 PM
Vlachs are/were reality, and their genetic contribution to all Balkan peoples is irrefutable, so deal with it. Of course there is a bond between these tribes, it is perfectly natural as they were living next to each other for centuries, but that doesn't mean all of them were culturally and linguistically the same, and in fact we know they weren't.

1332
Anonymous:
Initiative for Making the Passage (http://www.albanianhistory.net/1332_Making-the-Passage/index.html)
There were no Vlachs back in 14 century in the region. The latins mentioned in the text are not Vlachs.

Skerdilaidas
11-29-2018, 10:53 PM
Vlachs are/were reality, and their genetic contribution to all Balkan peoples is irrefutable, so deal with it. Of course there is a bond between these tribes, it is perfectly natural as they were living next to each other for centuries, but that doesn't mean all of them were culturally and linguistically the same, and in fact we know they weren't.
Sure they were, no one is denying it but the clans mentioned were never recorded as such, you’re grasping for straws. Mataruge, Macura, Drobnjaci and Krici in other hand were for sure. Piperi for example share a tmrca of not even 1300ybp with me and many other Albanian clans for Christ’s sake..

Kelmendasi
11-29-2018, 11:09 PM
Sure they were, no one is denying it but the clans mentioned were never recorded as such, youĺre grasping for straws. Mataruge, Macura, Drobnjaci and Krici in other hand were for sure. Piperi for example share a tmrca of not even 1300ybp with me and many other Albanian clans for Christĺs sake..
I'm starting to think that the Mataruge were originally Albanians that had migrated to Montenegro and started to speak Latin before being absorbed by the Slavs. Their name is extremely similar to that of the Albanian Mataranga family who were from Durres iirc, Mataruge is considered a variation of Mataranga, Mataranga is also surname found among the Arbereshe. Interestingly, natives of Mataruge in Plevlja mention how two "Illyrian" tribes by the names of Gheg and Tosk lived in the area "Prema narodnom predanju koje priča BoÜko Ćirović, u Ljutićima, Bratosavini i Dubočici ×ivelo je nekada ilirsko pleme Gege, dok je u Mijakovićima i susednim selima ×ivelo drugo pleme ľ Toske.". This is from Poreklo

Pribislav
11-29-2018, 11:14 PM
Vlachs didn't have a great impact on Albanians in terms of genetics(and many other aspects), going by what we know as of now.

You do realize this would mean Illyrians didn't have great genetic impact on Albanians? Because the great mayority of Vlachs in the Western Balkans were romanized Illyrians.


Fact remains that Vasojevici (PH1246) and Piperi (BY611) have traditions of being related to Albanian clans like Krasniqi & Nikaj (J2b-PH1751), Hoti (J2b-CTS11100) and Trieshi - Bankeqi (Z16661).

Vasojevići also have tradition of being related to Ozrinići who belong to I2-PH908, so your point is? Here is three facts for you:

1) There is no single evidence Vasojevići ever spoke Albanian

2) There is currently no haplotypes among Albanians that resemble that of Vasojevići

3) Haplotypes closest to Vasojevići are found in Herzegovina and Northwest Bosnia (Krajina)

Kelmendasi
11-29-2018, 11:53 PM
You do realize this would mean Illyrians didn't have great genetic impact on Albanians? Because the great mayority of Vlachs in the Western Balkans were romanized Illyrians.



Vasojevići also have tradition of being related to Ozrinići who belong to I2-PH908, so your point is? Here is three facts for you:

1) There is no single evidence Vasojevići ever spoke Albanian

2) There is currently no haplotypes among Albanians that resemble that of Vasojevići

3) Haplotypes closest to Vasojevići are found in Herzegovina and Northwest Bosnia (Krajina)

Not necessarily, unless you believe that all Illyrian speaking groups had lost their mother tongue and that Albanians don't descend from an Illyric group and rather a Thracian one. Though this seems unlikely. Albanians stem from a small cohesive group going by IBD sharings and there isn't any genetic evidence suggesting large Aromanian input in Albanians. As I said, you shouldn't refer to Vlachs as if they are a proper ethnic group. An Albanian or Greek that speaks Latin would qualify as Vlach. Maybe only the Aromanians may somewhat be their own group, though they absorbed many foreign(Albanian and Slavic) haplos. There is also no evidence which suggests that the Vasojevici spoke Latin.

Skerdilaidas
11-30-2018, 12:32 AM
Vasojevići also have tradition of being related to Ozrinići who belong to I2-PH908, so your point is? Here is three facts for you:

1) There is no single evidence Vasojevići ever spoke Albanian

2) There is currently no haplotypes among Albanians that resemble that of Vasojevići

3) Haplotypes closest to Vasojevići are found in Herzegovina and Northwest Bosnia (Krajina)

Tradition with Ozrinici is most definitely of a different era because non of the Albanian versions mention them, only Vasojevici and Piperi are mentioned.

PH1246 is generally pretty slim across Europe, among Serbs it only expanded with Vasojevici. For example you also have the BY14160 Rajovici who originate from Kuši (who without a doubt were predominantly Albanian not that long ago). Between the Duzhmani fella, the Arbereshe dude and Rajovici this group even though rare is showing some diversity in the region.

There were rumours that they were Catholic and Albanian speaking actually.

Pribislav
11-30-2018, 01:07 AM
There were rumours that they were Catholic and Albanian speaking actually.

This is downright hilarious. :lol: Don't believe every rumour you hear, they're hardly ever true.

Skerdilaidas
11-30-2018, 02:53 AM
This is downright hilarious. :lol: Don't believe every rumour you hear, they're hardly ever true.

Is it?

Add the rumour to the evidence already referenced, and voila - you have the whole picture. Anyway, in more serious note, the whole southern Monte region looks to have been predominantly Albanian in the past, that Kuci and Piperi were, there is no doubt about it anymore. Only Vasojevici are left there in a wedge. Why would only them be Vlahs when they are bordering all these major Albo clans who were culturally indistinguishable from each other? Use your head for once.

Trojet
11-30-2018, 01:32 PM
I fully agree with this, I myself wrote earlier about close relationship between early Albanian and early Romanian language on another topic. I find it most likely their ancestral language could've been some form of Tracoid dialect, possibly Bessian, that became latinised in one part of the population (ancestors of Romanians), and the other part escaped latinisation and moved westwards into modern Albania (ancestors of Albanians).

After all the failures to find our roots outside the Balkans, you Serbs will never give up on this theory, will you ;)

There is no serious linguistic evidence for this, much less a genetic one. So continue to dream big :lol:

Pribislav
11-30-2018, 01:54 PM
After all the failures to find our roots outside the Balkans, you Serbs will never give up on this theory, will you ;)

There is no linguistic evidence for this, much less a genetic one. So continue to dream big :lol:

I've never said anything about Albanians having roots outside of Balkans, so stop whining. There certainly is linguistic evidence for Thracian origin of Albanian, in any case much more evidence than there is for your Illyrian "theory", but you don't want to see it because it doesn't suit your agenda. And you continue dreaming every E-V13 individual in the Balkans is of Albanian origin, it absolutely doesn't sound pathetic and ridiculous. :lol:

Kelmendasi
11-30-2018, 02:02 PM
I've never said anything about Albanians having roots outside of Balkans, so stop whining. There certainly is linguistic evidence for Thracian origin of Albanian, in any case much more evidence than there is for your Illyrian "theory", but you don't want to see it because it doesn't suit your agenda. And you continue dreaming every E-V13 individual in the Balkans is of Albanian origin, it absolutely doesn't sound pathetic and ridiculous. :lol:
There isn't more evidence suggesting Thracian origin over Illyrian. In fact there is more evidence of Thracian, and analysis of those pieces of evidence has shown that Albanian doesn't really shown much affinity to it. Your whole argument is mainly based on the fact that Albanian shares similarities with eastern Romace, but you fail to take into consideration that inguistic similarity can just come from contact between populations and not origin from the same ancestor. Based on toponyms, linguistics and history and Illyrian theory is more probable. The way Thracian works and structures things is completely different to how Albanians does, and also who are you to say that Illyrian or some Illyric languages weren't influenced by eastern Romance, Illyrian wasn't just one group. We can't say that all Illyrians were the same. I think it's more of your agenda to claim that we have Thracian origin, you lot have had theories that have constantly been against Albanians originating in the western Balkans or even in the Balkans at one point in time.

We aren't claiming that they are of Albanian origin, we just want you to see the possibility when taking tradition and genetics into consideration. For example, Rajovic are supposedly a part of Kuqi, a clan that was originally Catholic and Albanian speaking. And so it's likely that maybe they also were Catholic and Albanian speaking

olive picker
11-30-2018, 03:04 PM
There isn't more evidence suggesting Thracian origin over Illyrian. In fact there is more evidence of Thracian, and analysis of those pieces of evidence has shown that Albanian doesn't really shown much affinity to it. Your whole argument is mainly based on the fact that Albanian shares similarities with eastern Romace, but you fail to take into consideration that inguistic similarity can just come from contact between populations and not origin from the same ancestor. Based on toponyms, linguistics and history and Illyrian theory is more probable. The way Thracian works and structures things is completely different to how Albanians does, and also who are you to say that Illyrian or some Illyric languages weren't influenced by eastern Romance, Illyrian wasn't just one group. We can't say that all Illyrians were the same. I think it's more of your agenda to claim that we have Thracian origin, you lot have had theories that have constantly been against Albanians originating in the western Balkans or even in the Balkans at one point in time.

We aren't claiming that they are of Albanian origin, we just want you to see the possibility when taking tradition and genetics into consideration. For example, Rajovic are supposedly a part of Kuqi, a clan that was originally Catholic and Albanian speaking. And so it's likely that maybe they also were Catholic and Albanian speaking

I think Dr. Cabej completely annihilated Bonfante regarding the whole Thracian over Illyrian nonsense.

User Derite had a great post on this at another forum: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26201-Who-were-and-are-the-Albanians-and-their-DNA?p=542428&viewfull=1#post542428

Not only is there a linguistic connection between Albanians and Illyrians, but there is also the fact Albanians have a seemingly strong continuity in their positions that they occupied in all of the empires that have existed in the region from the time of the Roman Empire to the Ottoman Empire. Emperors, Grand Viziers, Mercenaries, Pashas, Praetorians. I think this is is even a stronger argument than all of the linguistic or genetic evidence.

Personally I don't really bother with many Serbs when it comes to this, I have just accepted that they're never going to admit it since they seem to even be denying their own Slavic heritage. Just madness all around, but I would even say that Albanians can be equally as stupid in that they never seem to connect Christendom with the Illyrians, which is pretty strange since most of the important Illyrians were in fact the Christian ones.

Johane Derite
11-30-2018, 03:10 PM
whole argument is mainly based on the fact that Albanian shares similarities with eastern Romace, but you fail to take into consideration that inguistic similarity can just come from contact between populations and not origin from the same ancestor. Based on toponyms, linguistics and history and Illyrian theory is more probable. The way Thracian works and structures things is completely different to how Albanians does, and also who are you to say that Illyrian or some Illyric languages weren't influenced by eastern Romance, Illyrian wasn't just one group.

This is a very good point. A lot of the placement of the Albanian language is based on the eastern Romance argument. Despite the fact that there is plenty of western Romance in Albanian also. And that also there is a distortion happening here considering that the western balkan romance languages are extinct and we have much less material to work with from the western balkan romance groups.

For example, there is comparatively much more research into the Romanian Albanian pre-Latin substrate. Yet I still have not seen similar Dalmatian - Albanian substrates truly investigated (this is obviously made harder by the fact that it's now extinct and the Dalmatian speakers were absorbed by Croatians) but my suspicions are that the pre-Latin substrate of Dalmatian would have been in the Albanoid continuum just like the Romanian substrate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language

This comparative lack of material to work with on the Dalmatian will obviously shift analysis of Albanian more "east" if we only have Romanian references to work with.

https://i.imgur.com/DErjvTA.png


Many such distortions are created by not having these basic considerations in mind. Also the old tired argument of "lack of maritime vocabulary" which is so easily explained.

Firstly, Albanian does have original Albanian words for things like Sea (Deti) etc.

Secondly, the coastal and seafaring Illyrians would have been the first to feel the pressure of the Roman Empire once the Romans entered the Balkans and so would have been more likely to have been Romanised first.

Thirdly, maritime vocabulary is mostly very specialised things referring to things mainlanders have no need for. For example I know the word Starboard from hearing it on TV, but I don't know what it means as I am not a seafarer. I would not pass this on to my children. So its easily explainable how mainlanders can lose such specialised terminology within one generation or two if Romans now control the sea...

Some really basic basic explanations for tired out arguments.

Albanians supposedly couldn't possibly have been on the sea because of these arguments, and then in Mathieson 2018 we see confirmation of ancient J2b2-L283 and Z2103 in royal tumuli on the Adriatic Sea in Croatia (aswell as E1b L618).

Something these same tired old people were telling us was impossible based on their so called analyses.

One thing is for sure, Messapic - Albanian language cognates prove for sure that Albanians' ancestors did have relations with seafaring, the adriatic, and the western balkans. This is compounded upon by pre latin ancient west greek loanwords in Albanian as well as J2b2 and Ev13 in Apulia and Po Valley in 2018 paper on Italian YDNA.

And also, lets not forget that many scholars did argue and still do (Paliga 2002) that Illyro-Thracian is language group coming from one ancestral branch. There are many toponymns and personal names that are almost identical across both these languages.

Just some examples:


Albanian: BuzŰ, "lip." in English.

Illyrian: Buzos, Buzetius;
Thracian: Byzas, Byzos,
Dacian: Beusas;
Byzantion (the city's name is not Greek but considered Illyro-Thracian)

https://i.imgur.com/zZMKrbC.png

Pribislav
11-30-2018, 04:18 PM
Based on toponyms, linguistics and history and Illyrian theory is more probable.

Could you elaborate further? Which toponyms, which linguistic and historical evidence? As far as I can see, the strongest argument most of you have is that Albanians are first mentioned in parts of former Illyrian lands like a millenium after the Roman conquest of Western Adriatic coast. And that says a lot about the strength of your theory. During that one millenium, the only language recorded in territories of modern Albania is Latin and it's derivatives, there is not one mention of Albanian spoken anywhere near, yet you want us to believe Albanian was somehow miraculously preserved only to be recorded in the late Middle Ages? Never mind the absence of own maritime terminology in Albanian, which is by itself stronger argument against your theory than all of yours "toponyms, linguistics and history" are in favour. Never mind the obvious linguistic connections between Albanian and Romanian, which point to a common origin, most likely somewhere in the Central Balkans.


We aren't claiming that they are of Albanian origin, we just want you to see the possibility when taking tradition and genetics into consideration. For example, Rajovic are supposedly a part of Kuqi, a clan that was originally Catholic and Albanian speaking. And so it's likely that maybe they also were Catholic and Albanian speaking

I'm open to every possibility, as long as it is supported by credible evidence. Rajovići probably aren't a good example, as they are rather small brotherhood, with no close haplotypes neither among Serbs nor Albanians. They also don't have tradition of ever speaking Albanian. The fact they have tradition of coming from Kuči territory doesn't mean they were part of the Kuči tribe, many other brotherhoods who belong to haplogroups R1a, I1 and I2-Din have the same tradition. Piperi are probably the most likely example of a tribe that has Albanian roots, based solely on genetics, and I have no problem saying that. It would also be neat if some of you could accept reality that not every person belonging to "paleo-Balkan" haplogroup is of Albanian origin, I hope you all understand how ridiculous that sounds.

Kelmendasi
11-30-2018, 04:45 PM
Could you elaborate further? Which toponyms, which linguistic and historical evidence? As far as I can see, the strongest argument most of you have is that Albanians are first mentioned in parts of former Illyrian lands like a millenium after the Roman conquest of Western Adriatic coast. And that says a lot about the strength of your theory. During that one millenium, the only language recorded in territories of modern Albania is Latin and it's derivatives, there is not one mention of Albanian spoken anywhere near, yet you want us to believe Albanian was somehow miraculously preserved only to be recorded in the late Middle Ages? Never mind the absence of own maritime terminology in Albanian, which is by itself stronger argument against your theory than all of yours "toponyms, linguistics and history" are in favour. Never mind the obvious linguistic connections between Albanian and Romanian, which point to a common origin, most likely somewhere in the Central Balkans.



I'm open to every possibility, as long as it is supported by credible evidence. Rajovići probably aren't a good example, as they are rather small brotherhood, with no close haplotypes neither among Serbs nor Albanians. They also don't have tradition of ever speaking Albanian. The fact they have tradition of coming from Kuči territory doesn't mean they were part of the Kuči tribe, many other brotherhoods who belong to haplogroups R1a, I1 and I2-Din have the same tradition. Piperi are probably the most likely example of a tribe that has Albanian roots, based solely on genetics, and I have no problem saying that. It would also be neat if some of you could accept reality that not every person belonging to "paleo-Balkan" haplogroup is of Albanian origin, I hope you all understand how ridiculous that sounds.
There are multiple names/toponyms in the "Illyrian" language/s which can be explained in Albanian, Dardani is one and is linked to the Albanian word for pear which is Dardhe. Another example is the name Bardhyll or Bardyll, the name is linked to the Albanian word Bardhe(white) and yll(star) as well as the Messapians supposedly having the word bardulos which apparently meant grey. That isn't the strongest piece of evidence behind the theory, why assume things when you aren't certain.. Post evidence of Latin being the only language in all of modern Albania. Albanian isn't mentioned as being spoken in the central Balkans at any point in time, apart from Albanian communities in the area, but yet you want us to believe that it originates there. It works both ways. There isn't a lack of maritime words in Albanian, this is a misconception, the word for sea itself is native. Plus, how do you know that all Illyric groups had maritime vocabulary? You going to tell me that all Illyrians lived by the sea now? As for the reason of not being recorded, conflict and internal crisis within the empire(especially in areas where they lost control multiple times) made any sort of census difficult, as well as a small herding community living in the mountains being hard to record within of itself. Your whole theory is based on the similarities with Romanian and Albanian, and not even Thracian itself(Which linguists have shown to not be closely related to Albanian). I think that speaks for the reliability of your theory. Again you fail to understand how linguistic similarity can come about through contact and not common origin. You also have pagan elements in the Albanian culture that seem to stem from Illyrian paganism, such as the god Perendi. As well as things like the Plis. You also forget how Greek loans in Albanian are from ancient Doric mainly, a dialect spoken in the western areas of Greece, not the east.

Nobody is claiming all Paleo-Balkan haplo carrying non-Albanians as Albanian in origin. You're just being too sensitive. We are just saying that you should take in the possibility of Vasojevici maybe being of Albanian. And not denying everything through the use of "Vlach".

vettor
11-30-2018, 04:54 PM
Could you elaborate further? Which toponyms, which linguistic and historical evidence? As far as I can see, the strongest argument most of you have is that Albanians are first mentioned in parts of former Illyrian lands like a millenium after the Roman conquest of Western Adriatic coast. And that says a lot about the strength of your theory. During that one millenium, the only language recorded in territories of modern Albania is Latin and it's derivatives, there is not one mention of Albanian spoken anywhere near, yet you want us to believe Albanian was somehow miraculously preserved only to be recorded in the late Middle Ages? Never mind the absence of own maritime terminology in Albanian, which is by itself stronger argument against your theory than all of yours "toponyms, linguistics and history" are in favour. Never mind the obvious linguistic connections between Albanian and Romanian, which point to a common origin, most likely somewhere in the Central Balkans.



I'm open to every possibility, as long as it is supported by credible evidence. Rajovići probably aren't a good example, as they are rather small brotherhood, with no close haplotypes neither among Serbs nor Albanians. They also don't have tradition of ever speaking Albanian. The fact they have tradition of coming from Kuči territory doesn't mean they were part of the Kuči tribe, many other brotherhoods who belong to haplogroups R1a, I1 and I2-Din have the same tradition. Piperi are probably the most likely example of a tribe that has Albanian roots, based solely on genetics, and I have no problem saying that. It would also be neat if some of you could accept reality that not every person belonging to "paleo-Balkan" haplogroup is of Albanian origin, I hope you all understand how ridiculous that sounds.

illyrians lands first began circa 1600BC in eastern Austria , which is why Halstatt culture is a mix of migrating celts from modern bavaria into illyrian East-Austria.

as for albania, linguistic sources state

Until the middle of the second millennium BC, the Proto-Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian was a single language. After that some phonological change appeared in different dialects of this proto-language. Namely in the dialect from the middle of this group from which evolved the Continental Celtic and the Oscan and Umbrian, the labiovelar (kʷ, gʷ) turned into bi-labials (p, b). The innovations affects all these languages (one should remember that the forefathers of Oscans and Umbrians migrated from the upper Danube valley into the Italian peninsula) (see ultra).
In the eastern vicinity of this group there was the Thraco-Illyrian group which did the same thing, but only to the labiovelars followed by back vowels (*a, *o), while the labiovelars followed by a front vowel (e, i) were palatalized along with regular velar sounds. One may conclude that in Thraco-Illyrian the phenomenon of palatalization before a front vowel took place in about the same time as the one of the bi-labialization of the labiovelars. I should emphasize that bi-labialization of labiovelars did not reach the peripheral dialects such as Insular Celtic, Latino-Faliscan and Epirote dialect (from which Proto-Albanian evolved) (see ultra). I should also mention that the palatalization of velars followed by a front vowel affects all velars (and dentals) and it has nothing to do with the distinction centum/satem.
Ancient and Medieval historians consider Illyrian as Thraco-Dacian (Strabo), while Suidas Lexicon (10th century AD) states that “Illyrians [are] Barbarian Thracians” (illÝrioi barbßroi thrßkoi). Today, there is a general confusion regarding the relationship between these languages. Some linguists believe that they are related languages, while others believe that they are different since Illyrian was a centum language, while Thraco-Dacian was a satem language. However, a comparison between Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian glosses indicates that they were dialects of the same language or very close related languages. Although Albanian has a series of common phonological and syntactic features with Romanian, there are some important differences as well. The Epirotes of ancient times lived where Albanians live today.
Epirots were not Illyrians proper. Illyrians proper were those from Illyria, Dalmatia, and the two Pannonias. In modern Albanian, there is no labialization of Proto-Indo-European labiovelars as in Thraco-Dacian, Illyrian, Osco-Umbrian, and Continental Celtic. Thus, PIE *kwetwor ‘four’ > Albanian katŰr ‘id’ or PIE *wl̥kwos ‘wolf’ < Albanian ulk ‘id’ since it was peripheral as it was the case with the Q-dialects of the Italic and Celtic groups.

Further to this is that from 750BC Corinthian Greeks setup the Albanian coastal cities , from southern butrint in Albania to modern south Montenegrin lands ( plus settling in Italian lands ( sicily and the toe and heel of Italy ).......this brings further confusion

Dibran
11-30-2018, 05:37 PM
.................

Stop making a fool of yourself.

Skerdilaidas
11-30-2018, 07:39 PM
I'm open to every possibility, as long as it is supported by credible evidence. Rajovići probably aren't a good example, as they are rather small brotherhood, with no close haplotypes neither among Serbs nor Albanians. They also don't have tradition of ever speaking Albanian. The fact they have tradition of coming from Kuči territory doesn't mean they were part of the Kuči tribe, many other brotherhoods who belong to haplogroups R1a, I1 and I2-Din have the same tradition. Piperi are probably the most likely example of a tribe that has Albanian roots, based solely on genetics, and I have no problem saying that. It would also be neat if some of you could accept reality that not every person belonging to "paleo-Balkan" haplogroup is of Albanian origin, I hope you all understand how ridiculous that sounds.

I am not going to waste space with the rest of your drivel.

But I want to make it clear again to you that we are not claiming anyone with ‘paleo-balkan’ halpogrup as Albanian, far from that. We’re not that crazy or as crazy as you bunch with your ridiculous unfounded theories. We are specifically speaking about a clan that actually has oral traditions of being related to other major Albanian clans.

Pribislav
11-30-2018, 08:38 PM
I am not going to waste space with the rest of your drivel.

But I want to make it clear again to you that we are not claiming anyone with ‘paleo-balkan’ halpogrup as Albanian, far from that. We’re not that crazy or as crazy as you bunch with your ridiculous unfounded theories. We are specifically speaking about a clan that actually has oral traditions of being related to other major Albanian clans.

Suit yourself. It's not that you have contributed to the conversation in any meaningful way anyway. That oral tradition is easily explainable by the fact that Vasojevići had been living next to some of those Albanian tribes for centuries, often fighting together against the Ottoman forces, so some form of shared oral traditions is expectable. I already said there is no proof Vasojevići ever spoke Albanian, and there is no close genetic relationship with any of those Albanian tribes, or any Albanians at all, but I guess facts are not your field of expertise, so the best you can offer are rumours. Good luck with that.

LabŰria
11-30-2018, 09:21 PM
Vasojevic are probably the first tribe that was assimilated by slavs. This happened before the arriving of the turks. The last tribe that was assimilated was the Kuci tribe. If i am not wrong there is a village in South italy or Sicily with people from Vasoievice tribe who migrated there after that the region was invaded by turks.

Pribislav
11-30-2018, 09:47 PM
Vasojevic are probably the first tribe that was assimilated by slavs. This happened before the arriving of the turks. The last tribe that was assimilated was the Kuci tribe. If i am not wrong there is a village in South italy or Sicily with people from Vasoievice tribe who migrated there after that the region was invaded by turks.

Yeah, probably, unfortunately we'll never know when exactly transition from Romance-like language to Serbian happened, as it is known Vasojevići spoke Serbian throughout their whole recorded history. But most likely very early (VII-X century), as Vasojevići territory and it's surrounding areas were part of the earliest Serbian states.

LabŰria
11-30-2018, 10:02 PM
Yeah, probably, unfortunately we'll never know when exactly transition from Romance-like language to Serbian happened, as it is known Vasojevići spoke Serbian throughout their whole recorded history. But most likely very early (VII-X century), as Vasojevići territory and it's surrounding areas were part of the earliest Serbian states.

I don`t think that they were romance speaking. Tribes of Brda were Albanians back in middle ages, and not only those tribes. The very heart of Montenegro, the Old Montenegro during the middle ages was named Katund an Albanian word for village. Later the toponym changed in Katunska Nahija. Doubt that existed a serbian state in VII-X century. Serbs learned from Bizantines how the assimilation works, when Sveti Sava returned from Mount Athos started these stories.

LabŰria
11-30-2018, 10:11 PM
1841
Nicolay, Prince of the Vasoyevich:
Brief Information on the Tribes of
High Albania, in particular on the Independent Mountains (http://www.albanianhistory.net/1841_Wassoevitch/index.html)
And the map where this Prince describe the tribes of High Albania:
http://www.njekomb.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Albanie_Haute_-_Carte_des_..._btv1b8443329m-799x1024.jpeg

Pribislav
11-30-2018, 10:40 PM
1841
Nicolay, Prince of the Vasoyevich:
Brief Information on the Tribes of
High Albania, in particular on the Independent Mountains (http://www.albanianhistory.net/1841_Wassoevitch/index.html)

Well, how exactly is this going in favour of your claim that Vasojevići were Albanian in the Middle Ages? I don't see any Albanian name, only Serbian ones, and it clearly states Vasojevići are descendants of Serbian King Radoslav:


"In the Vasoyevich tribes, it is the princely family of the lineage of Miloshevich, the eldest son of Prince Radoslav (Rayo) who is a fourth-generation descendant of the grand Voyvod, Prince Stephen (Stevo) Vasoyevich. This prince was killed in 1389 at the disastrous Battle of Kosovo Polje. Stephan is the fifth-generation descendant of Prince Voyslav (Vaso), eldest son of King Radoslav 45th."

LabŰria
11-30-2018, 10:47 PM
Well, how is this going in favour of your claim that Vasojevići were Albanian in the Middle Ages? I don't see any Albanian name, only Serbian ones, and it clearly states Vasojevići are descendants of Serbian King Radoslav:

If you go a couple of pages back you will find a description of the region made by the monk. The Orthodox North Albanians were under the Serbian Church. So it was normal that many Albanians back carried slav names.

Pribislav
11-30-2018, 10:51 PM
If you go a couple of pages back you will find a description of the region made by the monk. The Orthodox North Albanians were under the Serbian Church. So it was normal that many Albanians back carried slav names.

Was it also normal they had tradition of descending from Serbian King?

27369

LabŰria
11-30-2018, 10:56 PM
27369

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humoj_family
How do you think that many Albanians were assimilated in Serbs and Greeks? The Orthodox Church.

Kelmendasi
11-30-2018, 11:10 PM
Suit yourself. It's not that you have contributed to the conversation in any meaningful way anyway. That oral tradition is easily explainable by the fact that Vasojevići had been living next to some of those Albanian tribes for centuries, often fighting together against the Ottoman forces, so some form of shared oral traditions is expectable. I already said there is no proof Vasojevići ever spoke Albanian, and there is no close genetic relationship with any of those Albanian tribes, or any Albanians at all, but I guess facts are not your field of expertise, so the best you can offer are rumours. Good luck with that.
But the same could be said for them being Vlachs originally. They aren't recorded as being Vlachs/Latin speakers originally and there isn't any genetic evidence of it. Anyways, best we wait till more evidence is gained in order to come to a conclusion. Best we just agree to disagree for now and not fuel a flame war.

cvolt
11-30-2018, 11:30 PM
What is your known/suspected ancestry? Also, which company did he test with? There are some ancient clades for instance that are very distantly related to Albanian J2b2 in some Northern Europeans. If you have STRs(assuming you tested FTDNA/YSEQ) post them here, I am sure the admin of the project could chime in an help. If its 23andme, I recommend having your father test FTDNA/YSEQ and join the J2b project to learn more.

He's mixed ethnicities but I suspect my dad has some caucasian and jewish/east med components somewhere along the line. On gedmatch he has a good bit of east med which translates to part Greek in a lot of oracles. I'll look into the FTDNA y-dna testing!

Johane Derite
12-03-2018, 09:44 AM
I want to congratulate the Albanian Bloodlines Project for having reached 500 tested, especially considering that at the beginning of this year there was not yet 200 tested. This is a great sign of progress forward on our understanding of a subject that is neglected without basis and to the detriment of our collective understanding of European history. If anyone is curious or wishes to donate to this great project, there is a link to the website and ftdna project below.

http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about

https://i.imgur.com/4fJs3ev.png

Fatherland
12-03-2018, 04:27 PM
I want to congratulate the Albanian Bloodlines Project for having reached 500 tested, especially considering that at the beginning of this year there was not yet 200 tested. This is a great sign of progress forward on our understanding of a subject that is neglected without basis and to the detriment of our collective understanding of European history. If anyone is curious or wishes to donate to this great project, there is a link to the website and ftdna project below.

http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about

https://i.imgur.com/4fJs3ev.png
Awesome.

What's the Gegue/Tosque breakdown in this?

Dibran
12-03-2018, 05:01 PM
Awesome.

What's the Gegue/Tosque breakdown in this?

http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/

Heres the link to the stats page with Gheg/Tosk breakdown including by region.

J Man
12-05-2018, 06:40 PM
Here is a sample that I just noticed that might be a newer result in the project.

Boci Fan, Mirdite, Shqiperi J2a-M410>L25>Z387>L70

Is he the first haplogroup J2a Gheg sample from the North of Albania in the project? Overall J2a is very uncommon in the far North of Albania I know.

Dibran
12-06-2018, 05:18 AM
Here is a sample that I just noticed that might be a newer result in the project.

Boci Fan, Mirdite, Shqiperi J2a-M410>L25>Z387>L70

Is he the first haplogroup J2a Gheg sample from the North of Albania in the project? Overall J2a is very uncommon in the far North of Albania I know.

There is also a J2a sample from Elbasan. Though it was more central Albania. J2a-M410>M67>M92

J Man
12-07-2018, 01:29 AM
There is also a J2a sample from Elbasan. Though it was more central Albania. J2a-M410>M67>M92

Interesting...I already mentioned this to one of the Albanian DNA Project admins but if any of you know of any other Boci men from Fani in Mirdite that are ever interested in Y-DNA testing I do not mind funding for a test. I am curious to confirm the J2a haplogroup among that family.

Kelmendasi
12-07-2018, 01:09 PM
Interesting...I already mentioned this to one of the Albanian DNA Project admins but if any of you know of any other Boci men from Fani in Mirdite that are ever interested in Y-DNA testing I do not mind funding for a test. I am curious to confirm the J2a haplogroup among that family.
It is an interesting result indeed. I would've expected the family to belong to either J2b2-PH1751(One Fani member tested as PH1751) or J2b2-Y82255(The most common haplo in Mirdita and found in almost all Bajraks).

KingofPhoenicia001
12-09-2018, 12:16 AM
Hello! Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I'm looking for some information about my Albanian heritage. My great grandfather migrated from ShkodŰr to Lebanon in the early 1900's (possibly due to Balkan Wars?). The surname is Kojo/Koujou and it seems after they left they cut all ties with Albania, however I had family members visit in the 90's and again a couple years ago. If anyone can help me figure out why they left for sure or any information on this family, it would be a big help!

I just realized that what we spell Kojo might be spelled Košo in Albanian...if that changes anything. Maybe too far a stretch? I came across the spelling from an article about a famous Albanian singer.

LabŰria
12-09-2018, 02:44 PM
I just realized that what we spell Kojo might be spelled Košo in Albanian...if that changes anything. Maybe too far a stretch? I came across the spelling from an article about a famous Albanian singer.
Albanian alphabet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_alphabet)
The spelling of the letter J in Albanian is like the letter Y in English, example:Yes.

The great majority of Germanic languages, such as German, Dutch, Icelandic, Swedish, Danish and Norwegian, use ⟨j⟩ for the palatal approximant /j/, which is usually represented by the letter ⟨y⟩ in English. Notable exceptions are English, Scots and (to a lesser degree) Luxembourgish. ⟨j⟩ also represents /j/ in Albanian, and those Uralic, Slavic and Baltic languages that use the Latin alphabet, such as Hungarian, Finnish, Estonian, Polish, Czech, Serbo-Croatian, Slovak, Latvian and Lithuanian. Some related languages, such as Serbo-Croatian and Macedonian, also adopted ⟨j⟩ into the Cyrillic alphabet for the same purpose. Because of this standard, the lower case letter was chosen to be used in the IPA as the phonetic symbol for the sound.
The spelling of the letter ă in Albanian is like Ch in English in the cases of China or Chelsea.
Names and surnames Košo and Koši are mostly used in South Albania by both Muslim and Orthodox Albanians. But it is not excluded the possibility that these surnames are used in North Albania. For example:
Hafiz Sabri Koši (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafiz_Sabri_Ko%C3%A7i)

KingofPhoenicia001
12-09-2018, 05:33 PM
Albanian alphabet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_alphabet)
The spelling of the letter J in Albanian is like the letter Y in English, example:Yes.

The spelling of the letter ă in Albanian is like Ch in English in the cases of China or Chelsea.
Names and surnames Košo and Koši are mostly used in South Albania by both Muslim and Orthodox Albanians. But it is not excluded the possibility that these surnames are used in North Albania. For example:
Hafiz Sabri Koši (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafiz_Sabri_Ko%C3%A7i)

Thank you, much appreciated! Since there is no 'Ch' sound in Arabic, it would have made sense to pronounce it with a 'j'. I do get many Greek DNA relatives with ancestry from Albanian villages on the border, so maybe they were originally from the south and moved north to Shkoder later on? I'm really just speculating now haha

LabŰria
12-09-2018, 07:10 PM
Thank you, much appreciated! Since there is no 'Ch' sound in Arabic, it would have made sense to pronounce it with a 'j'. I do get many Greek DNA relatives with ancestry from Albanian villages on the border, so maybe they were originally from the south and moved north to Shkoder later on? I'm really just speculating now haha

I have to correct something. There are Koši in Shkodra. Greta Koši is a singer from Shkodra. I don`t know if they moved from South to North, maybe are native to North Albania. Meanwhile the name and surname Košo is more Southern.

eastara
12-09-2018, 10:19 PM
Does Koch mean a male goat in Albanian, this is the meaning in Bulgarian. Also, I know of an old fashioned Christian name Kocho.

Kelmendasi
12-09-2018, 11:36 PM
Does Koch mean a male goat in Albanian, this is the meaning in Bulgarian. Also, I know of an old fashioned Christian name Kocho.
It can be used for a ram(male sheep) that has had one of it's horns damaged or broken, I don't know if it can be used for a regular ram though, the regular word is "dash". It is spelled as "koš".

Dibran
12-10-2018, 12:02 AM
I have to correct something. There are Koši in Shkodra. Greta Koši is a singer from Shkodra. I don`t know if they moved from South to North, maybe are native to North Albania. Meanwhile the name and surname Košo is more Southern.

The Koci surname is most common in Diber from Albania to Macedonia. Theres also Koci in Kosova as well. Maybe forms such as "Koco" are from the south, but most "Koci" are from the North, including my own. Theres some family that went south but that was 2-500 years ago. Being its not a surname of fis/blood, it can be shared by unrelated groups. There is also one form written as "Koca". Hafiz Sabri Koci is part of my family. Though distant cousins. My grandfather knew him personally.

LabŰria
12-10-2018, 08:22 PM
Does Koch mean a male goat in Albanian, this is the meaning in Bulgarian. Also, I know of an old fashioned Christian name Kocho.


Koši and i think even Košo are short for Konstandin.

LabŰria
12-10-2018, 08:29 PM
double post.

eastara
12-12-2018, 12:58 PM
Koši and i think even Košo are short for Konstandin.

Yes, you may be right, we use also Kotze as short for Konstantine.

Dibran
01-29-2019, 10:56 PM
Koši and i think even Košo are short for Konstandin.


Yes, you may be right, we use also Kotze as short for Konstantine.

Highly doubtful. This is my surname actually. I would like to see what sufficient proof there is that it comes from Konstantin. What evidence is there that the transition into Albanian of Konstantin becomes Koci? Or somehow Kotze turns into Koci in the case of Bulgarians?

What sources are there confirming this? The only 2 possible etymological sources it supposedly is traced is from ottoman era Koc for the ram. As Kelmandasi already states. This is possibly the most likely root of the word. Another alternative etymology is that of the area Kocacenk, today’s Koxhaxhik/Kodzadzik in Western Macedonia. During the Middle Ages it was renamed from Svetigrad to Kocacenk by the Ottomans. Meaning “great battle”. Albanians who participated in this battle took the name Koci from the region and settled in Diber. One branch supposedly migrated south to Llozhan. My family is part of the branch settled in Diber.

Also, according to a book “history of Diber” the family wasn’t even recorded in the defter for this region until after the battle, lending credence to the second scenario. It seems the earliest mention of the surname is during the Ottoman occupation. Is there any evidence of this surname used in the Balkans prior; Connecting to Konstantin?

So it’s meaning has to do with a ram or status of character as in great. If there is some evidence to show the Connection to Konstantin could you post it?

LabŰria
01-30-2019, 05:35 PM
Ohh


What evidence is there that the transition into Albanian of Konstantin becomes Koci?
One of my friends name is Konstandin and we call him Koši, everyone, family, friends, call him Koši. Every person in Albania with this name, Konstandin is called shortly Koši. Only in Myzeqeja region they use to call people with this name, Ndini, which is the second part of the name. What evidences you want?
And another thing, Koši and Koci are two different names, but because on the keyboard of the PC there is not a letter š, sometimes Albanians use the letter c.
Si e ke hallin ti, pŰrse po mŰ fyen?

Skerdilaidas
01-31-2019, 02:11 AM
Last name Koci among Albanians derives from the Ottoman epithet 'Koca'. Which simply translates into 'great' or 'giant'. There are many unrelated Albanian fis/families that carry this last name, especially among Ghegs.

Tßltos
01-31-2019, 06:03 AM
Please keep discussions civil, and on topic. Thank you.

eastara
01-31-2019, 09:45 AM
How is Koci pronounced in Albanian, isn't it Kochi?
Koca (big, great) in Turkish is pronounced Kodja, close to the suname of your former leader Enver Hoxha. This is in fact written Hoca in Turkish, which means "teacher". Some surnames in Central Asia pronounced Koja, also come from there, probably descendants of the first Muslim preachers.

Skerdilaidas
01-31-2019, 04:23 PM
How is Koci pronounced in Albanian, isn't it Kochi?
Koca (big, great) in Turkish is pronounced Kodja, close to the suname of your former leader Enver Hoxha. This is in fact written Hoca in Turkish, which means "teacher". Some surnames in Central Asia pronounced Koja, also come from there, probably descendants of the first Muslim preachers.

Koši is pronounced that way, Kochi. Not sure where it originates or what it means.

Koci in other hand (pronounced as Kotsi) was most likely a military title of some sorts in the Ottoman Empire. Like Bajraktar, Bulukbash, Terzi etc. Probably meant the great general or something of that nature.

http://mylanguages.org/albanian_alphabet.php

vettor
01-31-2019, 04:45 PM
Koši is pronounced that way, Kochi. Not sure where it originates or what it means.

Koci in other hand (pronounced as Kotsi) was most likely a military title of some sorts in the Ottoman Empire. Like Bajraktar, Bulukbash, Terzi etc. Probably meant the great general or something of that nature.

http://mylanguages.org/albanian_alphabet.php

The third letter is not used that way in french, spanish and venetian languages in the renaissance period , it had a s sound.
sound and spelling like the fruit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C3%A7a%C3%AD_palm

If that letter was the first letter then it would be a th sound

If , as you say it is a ch then in italian it would be a k sound......in venetian, it would not be written that way, it would be a k , so the word would be koki........

LabŰria
01-31-2019, 06:48 PM
How is Koci pronounced in Albanian, isn't it Kochi?
Koca (big, great) in Turkish is pronounced Kodja, close to the suname of your former leader Enver Hoxha. This is in fact written Hoca in Turkish, which means "teacher". Some surnames in Central Asia pronounced Koja, also come from there, probably descendants of the first Muslim preachers.
The Albanian alphabet (Albanian: alfabeti shqip) is a variant of the Latin alphabet used to write the Albanian language. It consists of 36 letters:[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_alphabet)
Let`s start from the last. Koja are Christian Albanians. A famous name that comes to my mind is Vangjel Koja the most important name of the Albanian volleyball. He is Orthodox. There are also Catholics and i am not sure if there are Muslims. The letter j in Albanian is like y in english yes. So, nothing to do with muslim preachers from Central Asia.
dj in Albanian is the letter xh, Enver Hoxha, or hoxha the muslim priest.

⟨xh⟩, in Albanian, represents the sound of the voiced postalveolar affricate consonant /dʒ/, as in the surname Hoxha /ˈhɔdʒa/. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin-script_digraphs#X)
Koci is another name. We are discussing about Koši and Košo.
In the name Koci, the letter c in Albanian is something like ts. It`s like the surname of the ex-Foreign Minister of Greece, Nikos Kotzias but without the greek suffix as. Kotzias if i am not wrong is Arvanite.
Now, about Koši. The letter š in Albanian is like Chelsea.
I will post something that you probably know very well, but not all the others, because we have to explain this transitional:
Constantine (name) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_(name))

Constantine (/ˈkɒnstəntaɪn/ or /ˈkɒnstəntiːn/; Latin: Cōnstantīnus, Greek: Κωνσταντῖνος, Kōnstantţnos) is a masculine given name and surname which is derived from the Latin name Constantinus,[1] a hypocoristic of the first names Constans and Constantius, both meaning "constant, steadfast" in Latin.[2]
The name is common among Orthodox people in Albania, in the form of Kostandin, Kostantin or Kosta.

Kosta is the diminuitive form of the name Konstandin. But what the article of Wiki don`t say is that in some parts of Albania, especially Korša region exist also the form Kostaq. I can`t explain the letter q with English because there is no something similar in English.
Now, back to the movie, the old Albanian comedy:

https://youtu.be/qUImSzBg5Ho?t=3215
Zonja nga qyteti
Lady from the city
00:53:35
In Albanian:

E quajnŰ Kostaq por e thŰrresin Koši
Translation in English:

His name is Kostaq but (they)call him Koši
The name/surname Košo is mostly or maybe exclusively used in South Albania. Meanwhile the surname Koši is used in all Albania.
Some people with this name/surname:
Two founding members of the Albanian Comunist Party are Koši Xoxe and Košo Tashko, Orthodox Albanians from South-east Albania. From South-west Albania, Himara region, Petro Koši and Košo KokŰdhima, both Orthodox Albanians. I can continue with many other names but i think these examples are enough.The name/surname Koši can be found in all Albania. Is the 24 most used surname in Albania.
In Albania, for different reasons many Muslims used in the past and continue still today to use Christian names/surnames. But never, the Christian Albanians used turkish names. Both names are Christian in origine but used also from Muslim Albanians.
I have never heard before about this ram from slavic or turkish origine(great), mentioned by Dibran and Skerdilaid. Maybe both cases are slavic and turkish influences in their villages, but nothing to do with this name Koši used by Albanians. And i want to repeat, this is how i call one of my friends here in Albania, his name is Konstandin and we call him Koši. It`s common knowledge among Albanians, but these two guys live diaspora and are not well informed about the reality here.

Dibran
01-31-2019, 07:32 PM
Last name Koci among Albanians derives from the Ottoman epithet 'Koca'. Which simply translates into 'great' or 'giant'. There are many unrelated Albanian fis/families that carry this last name, especially among Ghegs.

Exactly what I said. That or the Ram connection. I don't see what it has to do with Constantine. The Albanian form of that is just Konstantin/Konstandin right?

Dibran
01-31-2019, 07:39 PM
Koši is pronounced that way, Kochi. Not sure where it originates or what it means.

Koci in other hand (pronounced as Kotsi) was most likely a military title of some sorts in the Ottoman Empire. Like Bajraktar, Bulukbash, Terzi etc. Probably meant the great general or something of that nature.

http://mylanguages.org/albanian_alphabet.php

ours is obviously as Kochi, with the marking, which I understood as meaning the aforementioned or referencing the ram. Are you saying this is the meaning for Koci(kotsi) and not Koci(kochi)? Or do they both generally have the same meaning/derivation?

Skerdilaidas
01-31-2019, 08:05 PM
ours is obviously as Kochi, with the marking, which I understood as meaning the aforementioned or referencing the "ram". Are you saying this is the meaning for Koci(kotsi) and not Koci(kochi)? Or do they both generally have the same meaning/derivation?

Honestly not too sure about Koši, I thought it was more of southern thing. But if that’s how you spell your last name then I was wrong (I thought you spell it without the š). Could be a Dibra thing as well I guess because I haven’t encountered it in other northern regions. I was only talking about Koci, the version I have encountered in Kosove and Malesi. Koca of Kabash, Koci of Hot, Koci of Thaš (Lug i Baranit) etc.

Dibran
01-31-2019, 08:25 PM
Honestly not too sure about Koši, I thought it was more of southern thing. But if that’s how you spell your last name than I was wrong. Could be a Dibra thing as well I guess because I haven’t encountered it in other northern regions. In Kosove and Malesi I have only seen the Koci version. Koca of Kabash, Koci of Hoti, Koci of Thaš (Lug i Baranit) etc.

Very interesting. Yea, being born here I spell it without the marking. My father and uncles all pronounce it kochi and not kotsi. I have to see if my father has the old Albanian passports. I imagine if it lists it with the marking then perhaps Lab is partially right at least where this version of the spelling is concerned. However, we always understood it had to do with the ram/its horns. This is also the understanding Kelmandasi has for its meaning. I can't find the source for that though. If it is from the south it could make sense right considering L1029 is more common in the south? Not always the case I imagine though.

LabŰria
01-31-2019, 08:26 PM
Honestly not too sure about Koši, I thought it was more of southern thing. But if that’s how you spell your last name than I was wrong. Could be a Dibra thing as well I guess because I haven’t encountered it in other northern regions. In Kosove and Malesi I have only seen the Koci version. Koca of Kabash, Koci of Hot, Koci of Thaš (Lug i Baranit) etc.

The discussion here is about the name/surname Koši/Kochi and not Koci. Don`t create confusion here.

Dibran
01-31-2019, 08:34 PM
...............

Just looked up the male goat/ram which is keši in Turkish. Could be where koši is then derived.

LabŰria
01-31-2019, 08:53 PM
Very interesting. Yea, being born here I spell it without the marking. My father and uncles all pronounce it kochi and not kotsi. I have to see if my father has the old Albanian passports. I imagine if it lists it with the marking then perhaps Lab is partially right at least where this version of the spelling is concerned. However, we always understood it had to do with the ram/its horns. This is also the understanding Kelmandasi has for its meaning. I can't find the source for that though. If it is from the south it could make sense right considering L1029 is more common in the south? Not always the case I imagine though.

Here is the list with 100 most used surnames in Albania:

22. Andoni

23. Hasani

24. Koši

25. FrashŰri

26. Ruši

27. Zeneli

28. Papa

https://www.gazetaexpress.com/lajme/100-mbiemrat-me-te-perhapur-ne-shqiperi-40244/?archive=1
There are no surname Koci in Albania in my knowledge, at least among 100 most used surnames, no.

Dibran
01-31-2019, 08:54 PM
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

The Koci recorded in the book "History of Dibra" are recorded as Koši even with the Ottoman defter. I can send you the screen caps from the book. Someone in Diber sent it. its in Albanian so I am sure you understand the contents better than I can. So these Koci in Diber had it with the marking. The only issue I find is the author says they take the name from the battle of Kocacenk/Koxhaxhik, the meaning of which is derived from Koci/Koca(kotsi) and not Koši. He mentions many migrate to Llozhan in the south(which I think is in Korce). All are mentioned as Orthodox. One Murat Koši is the only one who converted. His sons supposedly settled in Tucep/Ostren(all of which are my family). My father mentioned we moved into Okshtun only in the last 500 years. Sure enough before the battle our Koši are not in the defter for Okshtun. Likely moved from an offshoot in Ostren/Tucep.

Skerdilaidas
01-31-2019, 08:56 PM
The Koci recorded in the book "History of Dibra" are recorded as Koši even with the Ottoman defter. I can send you the screen caps from the book. Someone in Diber sent it. its in Albanian so I am sure you understand the contents better than I can. So these Koci in Diber had it with the marking. The only issue I find is the author says they take the name from the battle of Kocacenk/Koxhaxhik, the meaning of which is derived from Koci/Koca(kotsi) and not the other.

Ok, send it to me via email or pm then. Curious to see what he has to say.

Dibran
01-31-2019, 09:11 PM
Ok, send it to me via email or pm then. Curious to see what he has to say.

Definitely will. I should be home from work soon. Will send it when I get in.

LabŰria
01-31-2019, 09:46 PM
The Koci recorded in the book "History of Dibra" are recorded as Koši even with the Ottoman defter. I can send you the screen caps from the book. Someone in Diber sent it. its in Albanian so I am sure you understand the contents better than I can. So these Koci in Diber had it with the marking. The only issue I find is the author says they take the name from the battle of Kocacenk/Koxhaxhik, the meaning of which is derived from Koci/Koca(kotsi) and not Koši. He mentions many migrate to Llozhan in the south(which I think is in Korce). All are mentioned as Orthodox. One Murat Koši is the only one who converted. His sons supposedly settled in Tucep/Ostren(all of which are my family). My father mentioned we moved into Okshtun only in the last 500 years. Sure enough before the battle our Koši are not in the defter for Okshtun. Likely moved from an offshoot in Ostren/Tucep.

How the name is written in turkish?
I think we have turkish members here and they can help in this discussion. How is written in Ottoman language and in modern Turkish this name Koši?

Dibran
01-31-2019, 09:48 PM
.........

I emailed the images from the book to your gmail. If for whatever reason you don't receive it, let me know and I will inbox them here.

Zanatis
02-22-2019, 12:25 AM
There's also the Malesor surname from Montenegro Prenkošaj and Laberia is right about Košo being the nickname for Kostandin.

The letter 'c' in Turkish is like 'j' in jet or 'xh' for us.

Anyway, since Catholic Albanians use it too I doubt that it comes from Turkish but your case might be different.

J Man
03-09-2019, 06:55 PM
Another interesting new J2a sample in the project.

Reci Rec, Shkoder, Shqiperi J2a-M410>M67

Beast
03-09-2019, 11:46 PM
Another interesting new J2a sample in the project.

Reci Rec, Shkoder, Shqiperi J2a-M410>M67

Very interesting. What are his matches ?

Seems like it isn't only a Greek marker as some people claimed. Romanians tested also J2a amd even Croats.

J Man
03-10-2019, 12:57 AM
Very interesting. What are his matches ?

Seems like it isn't only a Greek marker as some people claimed. Romanians tested also J2a amd even Croats.

I am not sure who he matches closest with to be honest. J2a M67 and M92 are found all over the Mediterranean region, parts of the Near East and other parts of Europe although in small numbers the further north in Europe you go. There are a few Montenegrin tribes that are dominated by M92 which of course is a subclade of M67.

Kelmendasi
03-10-2019, 11:21 AM
Very interesting. What are his matches ?

Seems like it isn't only a Greek marker as some people claimed. Romanians tested also J2a amd even Croats.
I would say that maybe a good amount of it could just be from the Neolithic or Bronze Age. M67 was found in Neolithic Hungary and so it was part of the Neolithic expansion into Europe from Anatolia, we also have some basal samples such as J-M92*. In my opinion a small amount of the J2a clades found among us so far can be directly associated to Greeks.

Beast
03-10-2019, 07:35 PM
I would say that maybe a good amount of it could just be from the Neolithic or Bronze Age. M67 was found in Neolithic Hungary and so it was part of the Neolithic expansion into Europe from Anatolia, we also have some basal samples such as J-M92*. In my opinion a small amount of the J2a clades found among us so far can be directly associated to Greeks.

I agree with you that it's Neolithic, it's low frequency is most likely a bottleneck maybe. Same for G, T maybe too and even J1. YDNA frequency in general can be credited to bottle neck, I think, but I personally don't think Greeks had much of an impact on Ghegs , maybe Ancient Greeks did though. There were colonisations and also bride exchanges.

Beast
03-10-2019, 07:38 PM
I am not sure who he matches closest with to be honest. J2a M67 and M92 are found all over the Mediterranean region, parts of the Near East and other parts of Europe although in small numbers the further north in Europe you go. There are a few Montenegrin tribes that are dominated by M92 which of course is a subclade of M67.

I can't send you a PM so I will just reply here, I don't know anyone with those names but I will let you know if I do. No problem.

Take care.

J Man
03-10-2019, 08:35 PM
I can't send you a PM so I will just reply here, I don't know anyone with those names but I will let you know if I do. No problem.

Take care.

Okay thank you.

Kelmendasi
03-12-2019, 06:33 PM
I agree with you that it's Neolithic, it's low frequency is most likely a bottleneck maybe. Same for G, T maybe too and even J1. YDNA frequency in general can be credited to bottle neck, I think, but I personally don't think Greeks had much of an impact on Ghegs , maybe Ancient Greeks did though. There were colonisations and also bride exchanges.
Interestingly, a guy from Shkodra recently tested as J2a>SK1363>Y14434. SK1363 was found in a Neolithic sample from Croatia(Osijek) which was part of the Sopot culture. So I find it likely that certain J2a clades were carried by Illyric groups, though probably in small numbers/percentages. In my opinion, Greeks didn't have much of a significant genetic impact on Albanians when it comes to Y-DNA. We still need to determine which J2a clades among the Albanians can be classed as "Greek", most of the J2a seems to be of Neolithic or Latin(which in turn could be Hellenic) input. However, I do think that some specific clades of J2a among certain southern Albanians is of Hellenic origin.

Pribislav
03-14-2019, 02:57 PM
Interestingly, a guy from Shkodra recently tested as J2a>SK1363>Y14434. SK1363 was found in a Neolithic sample from Croatia(Osijek) which was part of the Sopot culture. So I find it likely that certain J2a clades were carried by Illyric groups, though probably in small numbers/percentages. In my opinion, Greeks didn't have much of a significant genetic impact on Albanians when it comes to Y-DNA. We still need to determine which J2a clades among the Albanians can be classed as "Greek", most of the J2a seems to be of Neolithic or Latin(which in turn could be Hellenic) input. However, I do think that some specific clades of J2a among certain southern Albanians is of Hellenic origin.

Subclade Y14434>Y14439 is currently found in seven families from Serbian DNA Project, and according to literature and oral traditions the source should be in Hercegovina. All seven have similar haplotypes, but they don't look close to your guy. Notable differences on first 37 STRs are: DYS393=14, DYS385=13-17, DYS389II=30, DYS449=32, DYS460=11, DYS456=14, DYS576=16 and DYS570=15.

Artmar
06-10-2019, 07:11 PM
Hi! Who is YF63776 from Yfull https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3226/ ? Is he a Gheg, Tosk?

I am YF05594 so basically in the same clade but more closely related to the Moravian and Silesian.

Trojet
06-10-2019, 10:39 PM
Hi! Who is YF63776 from Yfull https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3226/ ? Is he a Gheg, Tosk?

I am YF05594 so basically in the same clade but more closely related to the Moravian and Silesian.

He is a member of the Albanian Bloodlines Project who recently took the Big Y-700 test, and he is Tosk (TepelenŰ region).

Interesting. Yes, same clade as you!

Dibran
06-17-2019, 02:28 PM
He is a member of the Albanian Bloodlines Project who recently took the Big Y-700 test, and he is Tosk (TepelenŰ region).

Interesting. Yes, same clade as you!

Interesting that he is basal. Likely forms his own founder effect. Does he match other CTS1211 in the project?

Dibran
07-21-2019, 10:45 PM
Thanks, and yes the sample size is too small. Hopefully in time that will change. :)

Any chance you could post the haplogroups of the Arberesh members and strs? They are not publicly available. Donĺt need to list names. Just curious what they show. Or if matches exist between them and other members in the project.

Tßltos
07-26-2019, 01:52 PM
Any chance you could post the haplogroups of the Arberesh members and strs? They are not publicly available. Don’t need to list names. Just curious what they show. Or if matches exist between them and other members in the project.

It is still a very small project. Only 29 members. 16 Y DNA results as of today. There are 3 from Italy. J-ZS1711, RKMS67, and a predicted J-M172. From Albania a E-BY151790. From Bosnia and Herzegovina a E-A18844. A predicted R-M269 from Macedonia. Also a E-FGC11450, and it is unclear if the paternal line is either Arberesh, or Greek. Also a man who is either from Algeria, Macedonia, or Kosovo. He is J-M172 .

The project accepts anyone with ArbŰreshŰ roots, but not everyone has verified their background. A few have some really good trees, and I can see a village borders a known ArbŰreshŰ village. That particular one is in line with their direct maternal though.

Dibran
07-26-2019, 06:31 PM
It is still a very small project. Only 29 members. 16 Y DNA results as of today. There are 3 from Italy. J-ZS1711, RKMS67, and a predicted J-M172. From Albania a E-BY151790. From Bosnia and Herzegovina a E-A18844. A predicted R-M269 from Macedonia. Also a E-FGC11450, and it is unclear if the paternal line is either Arberesh, or Greek. Also a man who is either from Algeria, Macedonia, or Kosovo. He is J-M172 .

The project accepts anyone with ArbŰreshŰ roots, but not everyone has verified their background. A few have some really good trees, and I can see a village borders a known ArbŰreshŰ village. That particular one is in line with their direct maternal though.

Thank you for your input!

FGC11450 is very common in our project. Some 50 members under V13 belong to it. It does have a tmrca of 3200ypb though, so I suppose it depends on his clade. STRs would be great to determine how distant he is from Albanians in the project, whom mostly belong to Y173822(more Ghegs) & Y146086(more Tosks).

If he is predicted Y173822 then Albanian ancestry is likely, given TMRCA is about 1200ypb. Y146086 has a TMRCA of 3200ypb so depending on how he matches those in our project, he could be either of Greek or Albanian descent.

Tßltos
07-26-2019, 06:42 PM
Thank you for your input!

FGC11450 is very common in our project. Some 50 members under V13 belong to it. It does have a tmrca of 3200ypb though, so I suppose it depends on his clade. STRs would be great to determine how distant he is from Albanians in the project, whom mostly belong to Y173822(more Ghegs) & Y146086(more Tosks).

If he is predicted Y173822 then Albanian ancestry is likely, given TMRCA is about 1200ypb. Y146086 has a TMRCA of 3200ypb so depending on how he matches those in our project, he could be either of Greek or Albanian descent.

You're welcome, and thank you! I have to do a lot of errands to get to, but I will double check this over the weekend.

Kelmendasi
07-26-2019, 06:55 PM
You're welcome, and thank you! I have to do a lot of errands to get to, but I will double check this over the weekend.
Is the E-FGC11450 guy from Greece or Italy? There is a Greek E-FGC11450 sample in the Albanian project who is likely of Arvanite origin based on the distance between him and the Albanians within his clade, he comes under FGC11450>Y146086 which is very common among Tosks though is found in some Ghegs.

Tßltos
08-03-2019, 06:05 AM
Is the E-FGC11450 guy from Greece or Italy? There is a Greek E-FGC11450 sample in the Albanian project who is likely of Arvanite origin based on the distance between him and the Albanians within his clade, he comes under FGC11450>Y146086 which is very common among Tosks though is found in some Ghegs.

He has unknown origin listed.

Beast
12-28-2019, 07:04 PM
There isn't more evidence suggesting Thracian origin over Illyrian. In fact there is more evidence of Thracian, and analysis of those pieces of evidence has shown that Albanian doesn't really shown much affinity to it. Your whole argument is mainly based on the fact that Albanian shares similarities with eastern Romace, but you fail to take into consideration that inguistic similarity can just come from contact between populations and not origin from the same ancestor. Based on toponyms, linguistics and history and Illyrian theory is more probable. The way Thracian works and structures things is completely different to how Albanians does, and also who are you to say that Illyrian or some Illyric languages weren't influenced by eastern Romance, Illyrian wasn't just one group. We can't say that all Illyrians were the same. I think it's more of your agenda to claim that we have Thracian origin, you lot have had theories that have constantly been against Albanians originating in the western Balkans or even in the Balkans at one point in time.

We aren't claiming that they are of Albanian origin, we just want you to see the possibility when taking tradition and genetics into consideration. For example, Rajovic are supposedly a part of Kuqi, a clan that was originally Catholic and Albanian speaking. And so it's likely that maybe they also were Catholic and Albanian speaking

Here is a good connection that I found;

The Austrian linguist Johan Georg Von Hahn made a connection with the Illyrian tribe Labeates and the Southern Albanian ''Laberia''

http://www.novae.uw.edu.pl/pics/risan/risinium.jpg


If you look close , Labeates was a tribe in todays Montenegro or around Northern Albania somewhere.

It's possible at one point the Labs made their way South.

Kelmendasi
12-28-2019, 09:56 PM
Here is a good connection that I found;

The Austrian linguist Johan Georg Von Hahn made a connection with the Illyrian tribe Labeates and the Southern Albanian ''Laberia''

http://www.novae.uw.edu.pl/pics/risan/risinium.jpg


If you look close , Labeates was a tribe in todays Montenegro or around Northern Albania somewhere.

It's possible at one point the Labs made their way South.
Yeah, I am aware of this connection. The name Laberia certainly does seem similar to the name Labeati. It is very interesting how the names of certain Illyrian tribes can be linked to Albanian, for example the Dardani and the Albanian word dardhe or Proto-Albanian darda (pear).

As far as I know, the exact etymology of Laberi or Lab isn't known. I have seen some linguists connect it to the word leboze (horizon), whilst I have seen others suggest that Lab may be another form of Alban which was picked up by Albanians from a South Slavic dialect. I don't think there is enough evidence to prove or disprove either theory, however from what I have seen the leboze theory may be correct. This is based on how the archaic form of leboze seems to have been labeita which is pretty similar to the Illyrian name Labeati/Labeatae.

There were migrations from the north of Albania into the south, though most of this migration seems to have happened during the Medieval period (between 13th and 14 Centuries especially). Interestingly, most of these migrants seem to have settled around the region of Laberia/Vlore from areas of Dukagjin and Mirdite. Should be noted that there probably was a significant amount of Albanians in this region prior to this migration considering that in 1210 the Venetians state that the area opposite of Corfu was inhabited by Albanians.

Beast
12-29-2019, 12:58 AM
Yeah, I am aware of this connection. The name Laberia certainly does seem similar to the name Labeati. It is very interesting how the names of certain Illyrian tribes can be linked to Albanian, for example the Dardani and the Albanian word dardhe or Proto-Albanian darda (pear).

As far as I know, the exact etymology of Laberi or Lab isn't known. I have seen some linguists connect it to the word leboze (horizon), whilst I have seen others suggest that Lab may be another form of Alban which was picked up by Albanians from a South Slavic dialect. I don't think there is enough evidence to prove or disprove either theory, however from what I have seen the leboze theory may be correct. This is based on how the archaic form of leboze seems to have been labeita which is pretty similar to the Illyrian name Labeati/Labeatae.

There were migrations from the north of Albania into the south, though most of this migration seems to have happened during the Medieval period (between 13th and 14 Centuries especially). Interestingly, most of these migrants seem to have settled around the region of Laberia/Vlore from areas of Dukagjin and Mirdite. Should be noted that there probably was a significant amount of Albanians in this region prior to this migration considering that in 1210 the Venetians state that the area opposite of Corfu was inhabited by Albanians.

Yeah there is also the Albanian name ''Labinot'' .


Regarding Labeates tribe and actually Labs from Southern Albania, it could also be just linguistic similarity rather than a migration since possibly Illyrians spoke a similar language maybe. Even in Croatia and Bosnia you'll possibly find a lot of words similar to Albanian.

For example Delmeate from Illyrian delme and Albanian Del/delme which meant sheep as toponyms from animals wasn't uncommon. (That's also the area where the J2b2-L283 was found) .

Or such as town of Ulcijn from Ulk / Ujk meaning wolf . I think also many Albanians to this day in certain areas even name their children after animals, plants and even fruits like a lot of these Illyrian toponyms..... For example Ujkan is also an Albanian name used which basically means ''Wolf'' .


Yeah I believe many Southern Albanians to be native to the South too as not all of them match Ghegs as far as I know. They seem to have certain haplogroups that aren't that present in Ghegs and vice versa. I also read a paper that claimed Southern Albos are natives.

Georg Von Hahn also believed the Epirotes and Macedonians to of been Illyrians actually I think. And he also believed in this whole ''Pelasgian'' thing which he claimed Albanians to also be part of though some people pass Pelasgians today as some type of myth.


There is also an Albanian tribe named Dardha and back in the medieval period they were recorded as Darda . Dardha is also used as a surname. Also some book about collapse of the Roman Empire during when the Slavs and Avars invaded the Balkans mentions that a lot of the population of Dardania seeked refuge into the mountains of Northern Albania.

Beast
12-29-2019, 01:40 AM
Another thing I noticed is that Thracians/Dacians seemed to of also lived in Illyrian lands and their towns can be recognized by their suffix and Illyrians seemed to of also lived in Thracian lands. Some Greeks confused a lot of these tribes for each other.

Also it's believed some Vlachs were from Thracian Bessi and I saw some guy made this connection with some name ''Beskids'' meaning mountain and in Albanian ''Bjeshke'' however this name is also found in Illyrian land as a personal name believed to be Thracian such as Bessus but you also got the Illyrian tribe Bassana in todays Albania or the word Bosnia which seems to be Slavicized version of a name Bessana or some sort like that..... this all reminds me of the Albanian names Besjana/Besjan, Besart/Besarta , Bes/Besa, Besim, Besfort, Besnik etc ....

Kelmendasi
12-29-2019, 02:03 AM
Also it's believed some Vlachs were from Thracian Bessi and I saw some guy made this connection with some name ''Beskids'' meaning mountain and in Albanian ''Bjeshke'' however this name is also found in Illyrian land as a personal name believed to be Thracian such as Bessus but you also got the Illyrian tribe Bassana in todays Albania or the word Bosnia which seems to be Slavicized version of a name Bessana or some sort like that..... this all reminds me of the Albanian names Besjana/Besjan, Besart/Besarta , Bes/Besa, Besim, Besfort, Besnik etc ....
The etymology of the Albanian word bjeshke isn't exactly known. There is a theory that it is derived from the Latin word pastica (pasture), whilst some believe that it is derived from the Proto-Albanian beska which may have something to do with the Albanian word bie (to fall). However, it should be noted that the Beskid region was settled by Vlachs. The Goral people of Southern Poland for example are believed to be partly descended from these Vlach settlers. This may have something to do with the name of the Beskid mountain range.

I don't think Albanian names such as Besnik or Besart are directly linked to the Thracian Bessus or Illyrian Bassana. For example, Besnik is derived from the word bese (word of honour) and the suffix -nik, and Besart is derived from bese and ar (gold). So they are associated with the virtue of honour.

Beast
12-29-2019, 07:19 PM
The etymology of the Albanian word bjeshke isn't exactly known. There is a theory that it is derived from the Latin word pastica (pasture), whilst some believe that it is derived from the Proto-Albanian beska which may have something to do with the Albanian word bie (to fall). However, it should be noted that the Beskid region was settled by Vlachs. The Goral people of Southern Poland for example are believed to be partly descended from these Vlach settlers. This may have something to do with the name of the Beskid mountain range.

I don't think Albanian names such as Besnik or Besart are directly linked to the Thracian Bessus or Illyrian Bassana. For example, Besnik is derived from the word bese (word of honour) and the suffix -nik, and Besart is derived from bese and ar (gold). So they are associated with the virtue of honour.

It is hard to say how related they are since we don't know what those names meant in Illyrian or Thracian as far as I know. They could of also been just common Thraco-Illyrian words or names. As these type of similar sounding names both seem to pop up in Thracian and Illyrian lands and seem to of also been used as personal names and tribal names.

Bes or Besa also means faith and it's possible the word derives from the word faith or belief same for the name ''Besim'' which means ''belief'' .. ''Me besu'' means to believe ... Besoj means ''I believe'' .

The Illyrian Bassania and the Albanian Besjana certainly are similar sounding though we don't know what it meant in Illyrian.

Thracian personal Bessus has been linked to the Bessi though Bessi could of also maybe meant some word for a mountain or something. It is possible mountain in Illyrian meant something similar from common Indo European words and in Albanian ''Bjeshke'' while in Norwegians it's ''Berg'' .... the name Beskid could just be a common Indo European word for mountain as it actually similar in many Indo European languages.

This is also where the so called Dacian theory of Albanian totally fails since lots of those words presented as Dacian in origin which are supposedly common in Albanian are actually just common Indo European words and we have so little of Illyrian to compare and it's possible it was something similar in Illyrian.


I agree about the bie, bjen etc . very interesting.

vettor
01-28-2020, 04:03 PM
The etymology of the Albanian word bjeshke isn't exactly known. There is a theory that it is derived from the Latin word pastica (pasture), whilst some believe that it is derived from the Proto-Albanian beska which may have something to do with the Albanian word bie (to fall). However, it should be noted that the Beskid region was settled by Vlachs. The Goral people of Southern Poland for example are believed to be partly descended from these Vlach settlers. This may have something to do with the name of the Beskid mountain range.

I don't think Albanian names such as Besnik or Besart are directly linked to the Thracian Bessus or Illyrian Bassana. For example, Besnik is derived from the word bese (word of honour) and the suffix -nik, and Besart is derived from bese and ar (gold). So they are associated with the virtue of honour.

Does not Thracian Bessus come form the Thracian tribe the Bessi

A Thracian personal name Bessus (attested in Northern Montenegro along with other Thracian names such as Teres) is considered to have the same etymon as Bessi (Wilkes, 1982).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

Kelmendasi
01-28-2020, 05:03 PM
Does not Thracian Bessus come form the Thracian tribe the Bessi

A Thracian personal name Bessus (attested in Northern Montenegro along with other Thracian names such as Teres) is considered to have the same etymon as Bessi (Wilkes, 1982).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi
I was talking about the Albanian word bese (word of honour/belief) and the names that are variations of this word, not the Thracian name Bessus. It isn't clear what the etymology of the name Bessi or Bessus is, some try to link it to the Albanian word bese, but there isn't enough linguistic evidence to seriously link the two. Also as Wilkes suggested, it's likely that Bessus and Bessi come from a common word, rather than the former being a variation of the latter.

Johane Derite
01-28-2020, 05:23 PM
The Bessi seem to have been stationed all over europe during the Roman empire. "Bessus" cohorts show up in inscriptions in Rome, Iberia, Germany, etc:

https://edh-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.de/inschrift/suche?qs=bessu

Bruzmi
02-11-2020, 12:22 AM
Hello friends, I happened to read your discussion and just wanted to point out that I have written a new, much more complete version of the origins of Hoti on wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)

I think that much of internet discussion about this community has been channeled through very limited bibliography (mostly Durham via Elsie's really limited (and factually wrong in some parts!) book) and almost no interdisciplinary approach. Of course, in specialized bibliography this discussion has moved wayyyyyy past the stories Edith Durham collected in 1908 or those of von Hahn 50 years earlier. The defter of 1485/1497 and the cadastre of 1416-17 have been published and we also have some excellent work in western European archives. So, for example, Ardian Muhaj (2015) found a Mikel Hoti in England (of all places !) in the late 15th century https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=462561 (if you create an account, the full article is available)

My take as a summary of the research as it's happening is that Hoti's geographical origin as a kinship, pastoral, mountain, semi-nomadic (katund) community is in 1330 between Plav-Plava and Gusinje-Gucia. The rest is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)#Origins . I'm just going to copy/paste the last part of that:

"Later full translations of Ottoman defters also showed that despite chronological discrepancies and other errors, oral folk tradition was indeed based in actual historical figures. For example, in 1974 Selami Pulaha who translated from Ottoman Turkish and published the defter of the Sanjak of Scutari of 1485, found that in the nahiya (community) of Kuši (which included Trieshi), the settlement of Bankeq is found and in the nahiya of Hoti, the settlement of Geg with a Stanash Keqi at its head.[10] These toponyms reflect the tradition of Ban Keqi, who was the founder of the Trieshi tribe and that of Geg Lazri, founder of Hoti.

Further analysis of population data and historical records have shown that while the Hoti lived by the early 15th century in their present area, the Hoti as a territorial-tribal unit of the same settlement area as today, would consolidate in the mid-to-late 15th century. For example, in 1455 settlements that later were part of the Hoti tribe appear in Venetian records as distinct from them, a fact reflected in the oral tradition about the Anas. As in this area, pastoral mountainous communities (katund) like Hoti retained their territorial cohesion throughout this period of continuous warfare, they came to absorb agricultural sedentary communities.[11] Venetian documents about pronoia that the Hoti tribe was given over a few villages in the Shkodra area provide some more information about the early stages of this process."

J Man
02-11-2020, 01:19 AM
Hello friends, I happened to read your discussion and just wanted to point out that I have written a new, much more complete version of the origins of Hoti on wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)

I think that much of internet discussion about this community has been channeled through very limited bibliography (mostly Durham via Elsie's really limited (and factually wrong in some parts!) book) and almost no interdisciplinary approach. Of course, in specialized bibliography this discussion has moved wayyyyyy past the stories Edith Durham collected in 1908 or those of von Hahn 50 years earlier. The defter of 1485/1497 and the cadastre of 1416-17 have been published and we also have some excellent work in western European archives. So, for example, Ardian Muhaj (2015) found a Mikel Hoti in England (of all places !) in the late 15th century https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=462561 (if you create an account, the full article is available)

My take as a summary of the research as it's happening is that Hoti's geographical origin as a kinship, pastoral, mountain, semi-nomadic (katund) community is in 1330 between Plav-Plava and Gusinje-Gucia. The rest is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)#Origins . I'm just going to copy/paste the last part of that:

"Later full translations of Ottoman defters also showed that despite chronological discrepancies and other errors, oral folk tradition was indeed based in actual historical figures. For example, in 1974 Selami Pulaha who translated from Ottoman Turkish and published the defter of the Sanjak of Scutari of 1485, found that in the nahiya (community) of Kuši (which included Trieshi), the settlement of Bankeq is found and in the nahiya of Hoti, the settlement of Geg with a Stanash Keqi at its head.[10] These toponyms reflect the tradition of Ban Keqi, who was the founder of the Trieshi tribe and that of Geg Lazri, founder of Hoti.

Further analysis of population data and historical records have shown that while the Hoti lived by the early 15th century in their present area, the Hoti as a territorial-tribal unit of the same settlement area as today, would consolidate in the mid-to-late 15th century. For example, in 1455 settlements that later were part of the Hoti tribe appear in Venetian records as distinct from them, a fact reflected in the oral tradition about the Anas. As in this area, pastoral mountainous communities (katund) like Hoti retained their territorial cohesion throughout this period of continuous warfare, they came to absorb agricultural sedentary communities.[11] Venetian documents about pronoia that the Hoti tribe was given over a few villages in the Shkodra area provide some more information about the early stages of this process."

Nice work and quite interesting. Do you analyze and study the origins of other Albanian tribes as well?

Bruzmi
02-11-2020, 01:50 AM
Yes, and also Montenegrin tribes for the moment. Right now. I'm working on Trie(p)shi-Zatrijebac and Mrkovici-Merkot.

I think that the approach that can give us more insight is an interdisciplinary one that puts things into their proper context. Early anthropological approaches to these communities are somewhat reductionist and essentialist and always looking for a sort of "natural state of things" in the customs and traditions of these tribes. The fact though is that - although they retained many traditional features of older pre-feudal European societies - their existence was also a logical, contemporary response against bureaucratic-feudal rule that pushed them towards an impoverished life. That is why many of those who became soldiers-mercenaries for some foreign power usually stayed in the country they traveled to as soldiers.

That's why you can find Hoti men who died of old age in southern France and northern Italy (XV and XVI cent.) and are buried there in the graveyards of these communities. It is sort of obvious that these men went there as stratioti and eventually stayed and made their fortunes there.

Right now, I'm also waiting to get an article by Italo Sarro about some tens of families from Hoti that settled in Italy in the 1830s as refugees after an Ottoman punitive campaign against Catholics after the fall of the Pashalik of Shkodra.

J Man
02-11-2020, 04:59 PM
Yes, and also Montenegrin tribes for the moment. Right now. I'm working on Trie(p)shi-Zatrijebac and Mrkovici-Merkot.

I think that the approach that can give us more insight is an interdisciplinary one that puts things into their proper context. Early anthropological approaches to these communities are somewhat reductionist and essentialist and always looking for a sort of "natural state of things" in the customs and traditions of these tribes. The fact though is that - although they retained many traditional features of older pre-feudal European societies - their existence was also a logical, contemporary response against bureaucratic-feudal rule that pushed them towards an impoverished life. That is why many of those who became soldiers-mercenaries for some foreign power usually stayed in the country they traveled to as soldiers.

That's why you can find Hoti men who died of old age in southern France and northern Italy (XV and XVI cent.) and are buried there in the graveyards of these communities. It is sort of obvious that these men went there as stratioti and eventually stayed and made their fortunes there.

Right now, I'm also waiting to get an article by Italo Sarro about some tens of families from Hoti that settled in Italy in the 1830s as refugees after an Ottoman punitive campaign against Catholics after the fall of the Pashalik of Shkodra.

Very interesting approach and quite logical I think. I look forward to seeing more of your findings. When it comes to the Balkans for me personally I am most interested in the history and origins of the Pjesivci and Cuce tribes of Montenegro and the Reci tribe of the Shkoder area in Malesia and a number of families from the village of Shengjin in Fan Mirdite.

vettor
02-11-2020, 05:30 PM
The Bessi seem to have been stationed all over europe during the Roman empire. "Bessus" cohorts show up in inscriptions in Rome, Iberia, Germany, etc:

https://edh-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.de/inschrift/suche?qs=bessu

also a place where settlement of displaced people happened in roman times
Bessica named after a settlement of some Bessi thracians

Loria contains the frazioni (subdivisions, mainly villages and hamlets) Bessica, Castione, and Ramon.

Bessica dal latino bessis ................from the roman latin of Bessis

i principali ritrovamenti sono datati all'epoca di Traiano (imperatore dal 98-117 d.c.). Dopo le ultime grandi conquiste (La Dacia, attuale Romania-Bulgaria), con buona probabilitÓ queste terre vennero date proprio a ex soldati che da laggi¨ provenivano (in quell'epoca la maggior parte delle truppe imperiali proveniva dalle provincie; in questo caso era la popolazione dei "Bessi o Bessoi"). La prova Ŕ che esistette la lingua Bessica e che una volta convertiti al Cristianesimo, venne persino tradotta una "Biblia Bessica",

thats the italian story about bessica/bessis/bessi

Kelmendasi
02-14-2020, 01:26 PM
Hello friends, I happened to read your discussion and just wanted to point out that I have written a new, much more complete version of the origins of Hoti on wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)

I think that much of internet discussion about this community has been channeled through very limited bibliography (mostly Durham via Elsie's really limited (and factually wrong in some parts!) book) and almost no interdisciplinary approach. Of course, in specialized bibliography this discussion has moved wayyyyyy past the stories Edith Durham collected in 1908 or those of von Hahn 50 years earlier. The defter of 1485/1497 and the cadastre of 1416-17 have been published and we also have some excellent work in western European archives. So, for example, Ardian Muhaj (2015) found a Mikel Hoti in England (of all places !) in the late 15th century https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=462561 (if you create an account, the full article is available)

My take as a summary of the research as it's happening is that Hoti's geographical origin as a kinship, pastoral, mountain, semi-nomadic (katund) community is in 1330 between Plav-Plava and Gusinje-Gucia. The rest is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)#Origins . I'm just going to copy/paste the last part of that:

"Later full translations of Ottoman defters also showed that despite chronological discrepancies and other errors, oral folk tradition was indeed based in actual historical figures. For example, in 1974 Selami Pulaha who translated from Ottoman Turkish and published the defter of the Sanjak of Scutari of 1485, found that in the nahiya (community) of Kuši (which included Trieshi), the settlement of Bankeq is found and in the nahiya of Hoti, the settlement of Geg with a Stanash Keqi at its head.[10] These toponyms reflect the tradition of Ban Keqi, who was the founder of the Trieshi tribe and that of Geg Lazri, founder of Hoti.

Further analysis of population data and historical records have shown that while the Hoti lived by the early 15th century in their present area, the Hoti as a territorial-tribal unit of the same settlement area as today, would consolidate in the mid-to-late 15th century. For example, in 1455 settlements that later were part of the Hoti tribe appear in Venetian records as distinct from them, a fact reflected in the oral tradition about the Anas. As in this area, pastoral mountainous communities (katund) like Hoti retained their territorial cohesion throughout this period of continuous warfare, they came to absorb agricultural sedentary communities.[11] Venetian documents about pronoia that the Hoti tribe was given over a few villages in the Shkodra area provide some more information about the early stages of this process."
Great job on your work on the Hoti!

I would say that we still can't be sure whether the Hoti did indeed come from the area of Plav (PlavŰ) or Gusinje (Gucia). We do know that the name Hoti is first mentioned around that area in 1330 (Hotina Gora). However, during this time period Albanians as a whole were pretty nomadic in that they would move with their herds across different regions. They already seem to have been an established tribe during the early 15th Century, and were occupying a territory that roughly corresponds to their present location.

I think talking about the origin of the Hoti is rather difficult as, like many other Albanians tribes, the tribe is made up of different brotherhoods, some of whom are of different origin. The brotherhoods descending from LazŰr Keqi, son of Keq Preka, belong to haplogroup J2b-Y166564 and are clearly unrelated to the Anas or Hoti i Vjeter (Old Hoti). As is suggested in oral tradition. Based on the tested families from Sandzak (Sanxhak), Albania and Montenegro who claim descent from the Old Hoti, it seems as if they were R-Z2705 and J2b-PH1751. It's possible that the Old Hoti came from Plav, but it's still unclear where the New Hoti truly came from. Oral tradition suggests Herzegovina, though I'm skeptical of that. Should also be noted that the Trieshi (brotherhoods descending from Ban Keqi), are in fact unrelated to the New Hoti when it comes to paternal origin. The Bankeqi are E-BY168279 and are more related to the Kuci, though they are still separated by ~1,000 years. The Benkaj however seem to primarily be R-Z2705 like some of the Old Hoti.

Bruzmi
02-14-2020, 03:01 PM
The interesting thing about the toponym "Hotina Gora" is that it names a mountain range part of a pastoral community, so it describes hereditary rights.This wouldn't have been recorded like that if for at least some generations the Hoti community didn't use the area as their exclusive pastoral grounds.

The other interesting here is that this process of Hoti absorbing non-pastoral, semi-nomadic communities is that it's happening in recorded history in 1416 as they're being given rights in agricultural communities and later in 1455-1485> when this is recorded again. These Hoti in 1416 are pastoral people as is shown by their use of light cavalry (that's why Venice needed them in the area). The Anas on the other hand are always described as sedentary etc.

So I think that the Anas are people from these communities and everyone else who is recorded as Hoti is of the same lineage from Andrea Hoti in 1416 onwards and that they moved there in the period from 1330 to 1416. Their movement southwards would coincide also with the expansion of feudal property in Plav by the Serb feudal lords.

What's the total sample n on DNA material? A large DNA campaign with anthropological research to verify claims and results would yield a lot. Also, what is the examination process of someone claiming they are from "X brotherhood"?

Bruzmi
02-14-2020, 03:16 PM
By the way, I want to "thank you" for the comments you've written but the feature doesn't seem to work properly. So, I'll do it in the form of comment: Thank you friends for the very interesting discussion we're having!!

I'm reading and re-reading a lot the defter of 1485 of the sanjak of "Iskodra". We know that the Reši tribe came from the clan village of Reši that under pressure by the Ottomans abandoned lowland life and became a tribal community in the mountains. In 1485, in fact it's described as being located both in the mountains and in the plains. I've uploaded the register of 1485 for the village: https://archive.org/details/recialb

Now, this village also existed in 1416. What is noteworthy is that as you can see https://archive.org/details/reci1416 in the cadaster of Venetian Scutari in 1416-17 the full name of the clan is Kereši and "Reši" is its short form and the village name.

There's also another village properly called Kereši which could be the original clan village from which this branch sprang. It's also evident that not everyone who lived in 1416 in Reši is a member of the same kin except for the Kereši founders who form the majority. As opposed to 1485, this was a village under Venice and was moving into its trade network etc. so people who didn't necessarily have kin bonds lived in the same settlement. For example, Barbullushi means that the person came from the village Barbullush, Grubina also existed in other villages. Bukadjatha (bread and cheese literally in Albanian) denotes that the person was either very poor or unmarried, so they may or may not be Kereši. Patronymics like "Marku" mean that this person was probably from the same clan as the founders so there's no need to use his full name.

Kelmendasi
02-14-2020, 03:46 PM
What's the total sample n on DNA material? A large DNA campaign with anthropological research to verify claims and results would yield a lot. Also, what is the examination process of someone claiming they are from "X brotherhood"?
I'm not exactly sure how many Hoti (Old and New) have tested, however it should be around 10 or more samples. These individuals, alongside other Albanians, have tested through the Albanian Y-DNA Project at FTDNA and Yseq. The project had ~1,000 samples in total if I recall correctly.

Individuals from tribal regions know what brotherhood they belong to based on paternal descent. If we use Hoti as an example, the brotherhoods of the New Hoti all claim descent from Geg Lazri and ultimately Keq Preka. As a result, we can tell which family is New Hoti or Old Hoti. Brotherhood breakdown can go even further, for example from the New Hoti there is the larger Junšaj brotherhood that includes the famous ăunmulaj (Muslim branch of the Lucgjonaj) family. All families from the Junšaj claim descent from Junš Gega, one of the sons of Geg Lazri. And so they form a brotherhood.

Kelmendasi
02-14-2020, 03:58 PM
By the way, I want to "thank you" for the comments you've written but the feature doesn't seem to work properly. So, I'll do it in the form of comment: Thank you friends for the very interesting discussion we're having!!

I'm reading and re-reading a lot the defter of 1485 of the sanjak of "Iskodra". We know that the Reši tribe came from the clan village of Reši that under pressure by the Ottomans abandoned lowland life and became a tribal community in the mountains. In 1485, in fact it's described as being located both in the mountains and in the plains. I've uploaded the register of 1485 for the village: https://archive.org/details/recialb

Now, this village also existed in 1416. What is noteworthy is that as you can see https://archive.org/details/reci1416 in the cadaster of Venetian Scutari in 1416-17 the full name of the clan is Kereši and "Reši" is its short form and the village name.

There's also another village properly called Kereši which could be the original clan village from which this branch sprang. It's also evident that not everyone who lived in 1416 in Reši is a member of the same kin except for the Kereši founders who form the majority. As opposed to 1485, this was a village under Venice and was moving into its trade network etc. so people who didn't necessarily have kin bonds lived in the same settlement. For example, Barbullushi means that the person came from the village Barbullush, Grubina also existed in other villages. Bukadjatha (bread and cheese literally in Albanian) denotes that the person was either very poor or unmarried, so they may or may not be Kereši. Patronymics like "Marku" mean that this person was probably from the same clan as the founders so there's no need to use his full name.
No problem, this is great work that you're doing.

I too agree with the origin of the Reši from the village of Reš in the lowlands of Shkodra. The Reši themselves have oral tradition that claims descent from 2 Catholic families of Reš that fled to the highlands. The fact that the Reši seem to belong to 1 main haplogroup, J2a-M67, also suggests descent from a common ancestor who came from one place. This debunks the claims of individuals such as Edith Durham who believed that the Reši were of heterogeneous origin.

Trojet
02-14-2020, 04:03 PM
As Kelmendasi perfectly explained it, the "New Hoti" (Gojcaj, Gjelaj, Junšaj, Camaj, etc) or the ones who claim descent from Lazer Keqi, are all confirmed to Y-haplogroup J2b-L283>>CTS11100>Y166564, and matching each other at around 500-700 ybp to the common ancestor. So the tradition that they descent from a single ancestor is confirmed. However, the tradition that states they are related to Trieshi, Vasojevici, Piperi, Krasniqi is debunked, as these tribes are confirmed to belong to different Y haplogroups. Further, for the same tradition that states they came from "Bosnia", I haven't seen any hard genetic evidence this either, at least not around the 15th century. These genetic facts were known since 2017: http://www.gjenetika.com/fisi-hoti/

What you've done is really nice explaining in detail these oral traditions that we've known for quite some time, however, I think their Y-DNA should at least be taken into the consideration..

Bruzmi
02-14-2020, 04:12 PM
Maybe in light of research a more clear division is Anas and Hoti, since we don't have any evidence the Anas ever called themselves Hoti or that anyone who held the name was not related to all those who came after him. So for example, I'm curius as to what is the relation between Junš Gega and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jun%C3%A7_Hoti in 1434. The only way to verify connections (because unfortunately we don't have any archives...yet) is from sampling of the old graveyards and from archaeological research on sites like Qyteza e Hotit and Qafkisha (the site of the old church of Hoti) on a sample scale of more than n=100 and do comparative analysis with modern samples.

What I've also noticed is that the more you go back in time, more details on ancestors are lost. The Lucgjonaj brotherhood can tell you since 1696 with outmost precision who was who and everybody can talk about Lazer Keqi and Geg Lazri, but there's also a Stanash Keqi in 1485 who is the head of the village Geg in the defter of Shkodra. He figures nowhere in the oral tradition. Some information is lost the further we go back, so more archival work is need.

About the Preka patronym, what is known in all stories is that his name was Keq, but only in one story his patronymic is Preka. Others name him as Keq Panta or Keq Ponti. Maybe that could give us further information.

Bruzmi
02-14-2020, 04:34 PM
"thuhet qŰ Keq Preka ŰshtŰ ardhur nga njŰ zonŰ nŰ veri te territorit te Hotit rreth viti 1520, ndoshta Bosnja." This though should be changed in that page. This is just Edith Durham's assumption in 1908 and archival work that was published in 1912 showed that she was simply wrong (and so is Robert Elsie for using her as a source in 2015 without ever checking real scholars like Jirecek and Sufflay). Even if we use the defter of Shkodra in 1485 onwards as archival evidence for the settlements, Geg exists as a village and is headed by Stanash Keqi already, thus a descendant of the original "Geg" who founded the village.

So her point in 1908 is debunked but that is something that she herself acknowledges in 1928 (in the wiki article there's a link to her book).

The "Bosnia" thing should be put into perspective. She took this statement from Marash Uci in his old age in 1908, but what someone of advanced age meant in 1908 with the term Bosnia was something very different from the Austrian Bosnia of 1908 or the Bosnia and Herzegovina of 2015. To Marash Uci the term "Bosnia" meant what it meant in administrative terms for the past 300 years: the Eyalet of Bosnia, the southern parts of which in the Sanjak of Novi Pazar are neighbouring Plav and Gusinje https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_Eyalet#Administration

Kelmendasi
02-14-2020, 04:37 PM
Maybe in light of research a more clear division is Anas and Hoti, since we don't have any evidence the Anas ever called themselves Hoti or that anyone who held the name was not related to all those who came after him. So for example, I'm curius as to what is the relation between Junš Gega and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jun%C3%A7_Hoti in 1434. The only way to verify connections (because unfortunately we don't have any archives...yet) is from sampling of the old graveyards and from archaeological research on sites like Qyteza e Hotit and Qafkisha (the site of the old church of Hoti) on a sample scale of more than n=100 and do comparative analysis with modern samples.

What I've also noticed is that the more you go back in time, more details on ancestors are lost. The Lucgjonaj brotherhood can tell you since 1696 with outmost precision who was who and everybody can talk about Lazer Keqi and Geg Lazri, but there's also a Stanash Keqi in 1485 who is the head of the village Geg in the defter of Shkodra. He figures nowhere in the oral tradition. Some information is lost the further we go back, so more archival work is need.

About the Preka patronym, what is known in all stories is that his name was Keq, but only in one story his patronymic is Preka. Others name him as Keq Panta or Keq Ponti. Maybe that could give us further information.
It is mentioned in this link http://www.gjenetika.com/fisi-hoti/, that there were Anas families who were believed to be descendants of Junš Hoti and carried the name Junšaj. They had no relation to the Junšaj of RrapshŰ, the descendants of Junš Gega. Families from the Hoti Junšaj have tested and are J2b-Y166564 like other families descended from Geg Lazri. Though, it is interesting that both these figures carried the same name. The Ottoman records of 1485 do not suggest that Junš was even a common name of the region, something that may be noteworthy.

I agree that it's very possible that there was an individual named Keq or Keq Preka. As you stated, there is an individual named Stanash Keqi as well as the village of Bankeq. Ban Keqi was the ancestor of most of the families of Triesh, and was the brother of Lazer Keqi.

There was a story from Triesh that stated that the ancestor was called Keq Ponti. It stated that he had arrived from Arta, Greece, sometime after the Ottoman occupation. Though this doesn't seem to have been a mainstream legend, and it also doesn't make much sense chronologically.

Kelmendasi
02-14-2020, 04:39 PM
The "Bosnia" thing should be put into perspective. She took this statement from Marash Uci in his old age in 1908, but what someone of advanced age meant in 1908 with the term Bosnia was something very different from the Austrian Bosnia of 1908 or the Bosnia and Herzegovina of 2015. To Marash Uci the term "Bosnia" meant what it meant in administrative terms for the past 300 years: the Eyalet of Bosnia, the southern parts of which in the Sanjak of Novi Pazar are neighbouring Plav and Gusinje https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_Eyalet#Administration
Interesting, haven't thought of it that way. He could definitely have been referring to the area of Sandzak (Sanxhak). If I recall correctly, Franz Nopcsa suggested that the Shkreli may have actually been referring to the area of Novi Pazar when claiming Bosnia as their place of origin. Might be a similar thing for the Hoti.

Trojet
02-14-2020, 04:43 PM
"thuhet qŰ Keq Preka ŰshtŰ ardhur nga njŰ zonŰ nŰ veri te territorit te Hotit rreth viti 1520, ndoshta Bosnja." This though should be changed in that page. This is just Edith Durham's assumption in 1908 and archival work that was published in 1912 showed that she was simply wrong (and so is Robert Elsie for using her as a source in 2015 without ever checking real scholars like Jirecek and Sufflay). Even if we use the defter of Shkodra in 1485 onwards as archival evidence for the settlements, Geg exists as a village and is headed by Stanash Keqi already, thus a descendant of the original "Geg" who founded the village.

So her point in 1908 is debunked but that is something that she herself acknowledges in 1928 (in the wiki article there's a link to her book).

The "Bosnia" thing should be put into perspective. She took this statement from Marash Uci in his old age in 1908, but what someone of advanced age meant in 1908 with the term Bosnia was something very different from the Austrian Bosnia of 1908 or the Bosnia and Herzegovina of 2015. To Marash Uci the term "Bosnia" meant what it meant in administrative terms for the past 300 years: the Eyalet of Bosnia, the southern parts of which in the Sanjak of Novi Pazar are neighbouring Plav and Gusinje https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_Eyalet#Administration

Thank you for your explanation in regards to how the "Bosnia" thing came about. To be honest, I always found it suspicious and took it with a grain of salt, ever since there was only a couple of Hoti tribesmen tested.

Bruzmi
02-14-2020, 05:05 PM
Yes, I read it but it's very strange that this name has no mention nowhere else. Like literally nowhere else. In 300+ pages of the defter of Sanjak of Shkodra there's not one person named Junš. This name occurs exclusively in Hoti territory. So I think that more research is needed for a definite conclusion about what's going on here because it seems like a really huge coincidence if the only two Junš to ever live just happened to be in the same small area (hahah).

I assume that like me you've read that whole "Ponti from Arta" stuff on Robert Elsie's book. I genuinely think his book is very bad and mixes up everything and shouldn't be used as bibliography. In some cases he even makes up stuff based on his wrong translations. The man was passionate about the region, but his scholarship (he wasn't a scholar) led to him making all kinds of mistakes.

That there was a "Keq" is something almost certain to me. The linguist Gjovalin Shkurtaj writes about the use of the name in MalŰsia that: "The name of the first ancestor, Keq, which means bad in Albanian, is given in MalŰsia to only children or to children from families with very few children (due to infant mortality). In those families, an "ugly" name (i šudun) was given as a spoken talisman to protect the child from the "evil eye." The Panta name makes more sense because there's a Pantalesh village in Kuci in 1485, but that needs much more research to trace a possible connection to the story. And I also think that Preka and Panta are not mutually exclusive one could be a patronymic and the other a more geographical or wider brotherhood name. Like Ded Gjo Luli Dedvukaj for whom we wouldn't ask whether Luli or Dedvukaj is correct, as they refer to different aspects of his ancestry.

Something else from the 1485 defter: as a toponym Hoti is noted once in the nahiya of Hoti, but it's also noted once as personal name (not a patronymic!). I think that's the only record we have of such a thing and it's the name of a "Hot, son of Kura (or Kora)" in ... Niksic. There's also a Gjon Kura and a Kurpali, son Palkura. Maybe a brotherhood that moved north? Maybe an Anas family? We don't know.

Keqa
02-14-2020, 05:11 PM
Based on the current information that I have seen and studied we canĺt say that the Hoti Venetians were dealing with were the new Hoti, or the Hoti belonging to J2b-Y166564. In fact based on their oral traditions we can even postulate that they were most likely dealing with the Old Hoti (the Anas). If not, then perhaps with all of them combined as a heterogeneous group. So them being Ĺsedentaryĺ I would say itĺs just a theory that doesnĺt hold to my opinion. This is pretty obvious just by observing their graves in Vuksanlekaj. Gheg Lazriĺs descendants only moved in Vuksanlekaj mid 18th century, after they pushed out the remaining Anas group there.


Anyway, the pattern I have noticed with most of our major Fis is that they initially started as heterogeneous groups. Over time in some of these Regions/Tribes few or one family came to dominate the region and in the process they pushed out other minor clans, Anas or not. I think this was most likely the case with Hoti as well.

As far as the Herzegovina tradition goes, I think they may be remembering events that perhaps occurred much earlier that may even go as far back as early middles ages when Slavs and other northern tribes showed up in the Balkans, but overtime such traditions were modified to fit more recent events that common folk could remember.

Kelmendasi
02-14-2020, 05:32 PM
Yes, I read it but it's very strange that this name has no mention nowhere else. Like literally nowhere else. In 300+ pages of the defter of Sanjak of Shkodra there's not one person named Junš. This name occurs exclusively in Hoti territory. So I think that more research is needed for a definite conclusion about what's going on here because it seems like a really huge coincidence if the only two Junš to ever live just happened to be in the same small area (hahah).

I assume that like me you've read that whole "Ponti from Arta" stuff on Robert Elsie's book. I genuinely think his book is very bad and mixes up everything and shouldn't be used as bibliography. In some cases he even makes up stuff based on his wrong translations. The man was passionate about the region, but his scholarship (he wasn't a scholar) led to him making all kinds of mistakes.

That there was a "Keq" is something almost certain to me. The linguist Gjovalin Shkurtaj writes about the use of the name in MalŰsia that: "The name of the first ancestor, Keq, which means bad in Albanian, is given in MalŰsia to only children or to children from families with very few children (due to infant mortality). In those families, an "ugly" name (i šudun) was given as a spoken talisman to protect the child from the "evil eye." The Panta name makes more sense because there's a Pantalesh village in Kuci in 1485, but that needs much more research to trace a possible connection to the story. And I also think that Preka and Panta are not mutually exclusive one could be a patronymic and the other a more geographical or wider brotherhood name. Like Ded Gjo Luli Dedvukaj for whom we wouldn't ask whether Luli or Dedvukaj is correct, as they refer to different aspects of his ancestry.

Something else from the 1485 defter: as a toponym Hoti is noted once in the nahiya of Hoti, but it's also noted once as personal name (not a patronymic!). I think that's the only record we have of such a thing and it's the name of a "Hot, son of Kura (or Kora)" in ... Niksic. There's also a Gjon Kura and a Kurpali, son Palkura. Maybe a brotherhood that moved north? Maybe an Anas family? We don't know.
Yeah, I found the story in Robert Elsie's book. I think his book is okay for the most part, however he makes some sweeping statements and conclusions that just don't make sense and are erroneous. For example, he states that the ancestor of Hoti, Trieshi and Krasniqi must have been of Slavic origin as he supposedly came from Bosnia and lived in Serbian speaking areas (Piperi). This conclusion is clearly incorrect.

The Keq Panta and Pantalesh connection is possible given that Hoti and Kuši are neighbouring territories. Pantalesh seems to be a name made up of 2 different names, Panta and Llesh. In Serbian the village is referred to as Panta Lješ, with Lješ being the Serbian version of the Albanian Llesh. I'm not sure what the etymology of Panta is however. So we could assume that the village was possibly named after a certain Panta Lleshi. In 1485 the village had a large number of Albanian names, including: Leka, Deda, Kola, Lesha, Ulkashi etc. Interestingly, there was an individual from this village named Kal Kasriqi. His name is pretty similar to that of the Krasniqi, though it's probably coincidence.

Bruzmi
02-14-2020, 05:44 PM
I definitely agree with your comment about collective memory being used in tropes that fit contemporary events. All oral tradition agrees on one thing: that they were fleeing from somewhere. In the late 19th century that someone became the "Turks", but for the era they were talking about it couldn't have been the Ottomans. Now given that they usually add an area where they stayed for some time before coming to their present lands that time slot could be anywhere from a few years to a few generations, so it's very possible that they are referring the collapse of the Byzantine frontier in the early middle ages.

I agree that they pushed out and/or absorbed the Anas, but we have no evidence that identifies Anas with Hoti of Venetian times. In fact, we have no evidence of anyone coming from the north to settle in those parts in the late 15th century. The last Venetian mention of Hoti is 1474-1477 (and they have no further presence for the following years, so no reports as Ottomans take over) and it talks about the mountains of Hoti, resistance to the Ottomans etc. In 1485, this is called the nahiya of Hoti, it's smaller than Venetian Hoti because they've lost privileges (but has expanded to the north), but the main villages that were there did exist also before 1474, they weren't created in that 10-year-gap and there's no record of anyone coming there. In fact, Geg of Stanash Keqi is the biggest village of Hoti and it's clear that it didn't come into existence in just 10 years. There's also the continuity in relations with the Ottomans. Hoti of 1474 was in fierce battle with them, Hoti of 1485 has no timar holders, which means that the Ottomans have recognized a sort of semi-autonomy. This couldn't have happened without conflict. Also the taxation of Hoti of 1485 is the same as that of Venetian times in contrast to many communities around them. This is a sign of recognition of pre-Ottoman privileges. For this to happen, the Ottomans recognized continuity, which couldn't have happened if they were dealing with a different clan that took over in Hoti.

The village that exemplifies the whole Hoti-Anas relation is Traboin to me as Vuksanlekaj is very new (18th century) in territory where no Anas lived. Traboin in contrast appears in 1582 in the same location as a small village in Hoti called Oblana (if I remember correctly, 8-10 households), which wasn't in the land of Hoti in Venetian times. This village ceases to existsand Traboin is born. That to me shows the process you're describing.

Also: many tribes are polyphyletic and thus do intermarry within their tribe, but Hoti doesn't intermarry within Hoti just with the few Anas that still lived there patrilineally.

Kelmendasi
02-14-2020, 10:03 PM
Now, this village also existed in 1416. What is noteworthy is that as you can see https://archive.org/details/reci1416 in the cadaster of Venetian Scutari in 1416-17 the full name of the clan is Kereši and "Reši" is its short form and the village name. .
Was wondering if you could post the link to the cadaster of Venetian Scutari (1416-17)? I've been trying to find this source for quite some time.

Bruzmi
02-14-2020, 11:21 PM
Yes, I wanted to send it to you too, but apparently I can't send or reply to pm until I reach a certain amount of posts.

https://www.academia.edu/33718705/AKADEMIA_E_SHKENCAVE_E_REPUBUKES_TE_SHQIPERISE by Injac Zamputi, 1977

Also by the same great scholar: The relations of the Catholic clergy in their missions in northern Albania in 1634-1650 https://www.academia.edu/41423125/BURIME_DUE_MATEFIALE_PER_.HISTORIN_E_SHQIPERISfi_3 _h_R_E_LAC_IO_N_E_MBI_GJENDJEN_E_SHOIPERISE_VERIOR E_DHE_TE_MESME_NE_SHEKULLIN_XVII_f Great stuff about the tribes of MalŰsia e VogŰl, the villages around Shkodra and the Catholic of central Albania

J Man
02-15-2020, 01:32 AM
By the way, I want to "thank you" for the comments you've written but the feature doesn't seem to work properly. So, I'll do it in the form of comment: Thank you friends for the very interesting discussion we're having!!

I'm reading and re-reading a lot the defter of 1485 of the sanjak of "Iskodra". We know that the Reši tribe came from the clan village of Reši that under pressure by the Ottomans abandoned lowland life and became a tribal community in the mountains. In 1485, in fact it's described as being located both in the mountains and in the plains. I've uploaded the register of 1485 for the village: https://archive.org/details/recialb

Now, this village also existed in 1416. What is noteworthy is that as you can see https://archive.org/details/reci1416 in the cadaster of Venetian Scutari in 1416-17 the full name of the clan is Kereši and "Reši" is its short form and the village name.

There's also another village properly called Kereši which could be the original clan village from which this branch sprang. It's also evident that not everyone who lived in 1416 in Reši is a member of the same kin except for the Kereši founders who form the majority. As opposed to 1485, this was a village under Venice and was moving into its trade network etc. so people who didn't necessarily have kin bonds lived in the same settlement. For example, Barbullushi means that the person came from the village Barbullush, Grubina also existed in other villages. Bukadjatha (bread and cheese literally in Albanian) denotes that the person was either very poor or unmarried, so they may or may not be Kereši. Patronymics like "Marku" mean that this person was probably from the same clan as the founders so there's no need to use his full name.

Wow this is amazing! Fascinating information actually. Thank you very much! I can barely find any information in the internet about the Reši tribe of the Shkoder area so your information here is quite valuable I think. So we can now say for sure with confidence that the Reši tribe of the Shkoder area became a true tribal community around the year 1485?

Tßltos
02-15-2020, 05:24 AM
Hello friends, I happened to read your discussion and just wanted to point out that I have written a new, much more complete version of the origins of Hoti on wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)

I think that much of internet discussion about this community has been channeled through very limited bibliography (mostly Durham via Elsie's really limited (and factually wrong in some parts!) book) and almost no interdisciplinary approach. Of course, in specialized bibliography this discussion has moved wayyyyyy past the stories Edith Durham collected in 1908 or those of von Hahn 50 years earlier. The defter of 1485/1497 and the cadastre of 1416-17 have been published and we also have some excellent work in western European archives. So, for example, Ardian Muhaj (2015) found a Mikel Hoti in England (of all places !) in the late 15th century https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=462561 (if you create an account, the full article is available)

My take as a summary of the research as it's happening is that Hoti's geographical origin as a kinship, pastoral, mountain, semi-nomadic (katund) community is in 1330 between Plav-Plava and Gusinje-Gucia. The rest is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)#Origins . I'm just going to copy/paste the last part of that:

"Later full translations of Ottoman defters also showed that despite chronological discrepancies and other errors, oral folk tradition was indeed based in actual historical figures. For example, in 1974 Selami Pulaha who translated from Ottoman Turkish and published the defter of the Sanjak of Scutari of 1485, found that in the nahiya (community) of Kuši (which included Trieshi), the settlement of Bankeq is found and in the nahiya of Hoti, the settlement of Geg with a Stanash Keqi at its head.[10] These toponyms reflect the tradition of Ban Keqi, who was the founder of the Trieshi tribe and that of Geg Lazri, founder of Hoti.

Further analysis of population data and historical records have shown that while the Hoti lived by the early 15th century in their present area, the Hoti as a territorial-tribal unit of the same settlement area as today, would consolidate in the mid-to-late 15th century. For example, in 1455 settlements that later were part of the Hoti tribe appear in Venetian records as distinct from them, a fact reflected in the oral tradition about the Anas. As in this area, pastoral mountainous communities (katund) like Hoti retained their territorial cohesion throughout this period of continuous warfare, they came to absorb agricultural sedentary communities.[11] Venetian documents about pronoia that the Hoti tribe was given over a few villages in the Shkodra area provide some more information about the early stages of this process."

Welcome to Anthrogenica!

Thank you for sharing your research. All of it is very fascinating indeed. The part I bolded is very near and dear to me. My mother's father's family is ArbŰreshŰ. The legend is we do not remember our original Albanian name because supposedly we were nobility, and a nobleman from the family went to the king's court in England during the Middle Ages! When he came back everyone nicknamed him "The Englishman", and that is how we have our present surname. I will imagine we were probably just sailors. :)

Anyway, we do have someone in our autosomal matches that reports they are from Hoti tribe. Our Y DNA is not typical of Albanians though, however we have good company with Kelmendasi also being a J1>P58. Unfortunately we don't match further on this branch of J1.

Kelmendasi
02-15-2020, 11:57 AM
Yes, I wanted to send it to you too, but apparently I can't send or reply to pm until I reach a certain amount of posts.

https://www.academia.edu/33718705/AKADEMIA_E_SHKENCAVE_E_REPUBUKES_TE_SHQIPERISE by Injac Zamputi, 1977

Also by the same great scholar: The relations of the Catholic clergy in their missions in northern Albania in 1634-1650 https://www.academia.edu/41423125/BURIME_DUE_MATEFIALE_PER_.HISTORIN_E_SHQIPERISfi_3 _h_R_E_LAC_IO_N_E_MBI_GJENDJEN_E_SHOIPERISE_VERIOR E_DHE_TE_MESME_NE_SHEKULLIN_XVII_f Great stuff about the tribes of MalŰsia e VogŰl, the villages around Shkodra and the Catholic of central Albania
Thanks for the sources

I found some individuals who carried the surname Piperi in 2 villages around the lowlands of Shkodra. Can't really be sure if these individuals had anything to do with the Piperi tribe of Montenegro, however it is interesting as the Piperi are primarily R-Z2705>FT48939. Z2705 being a haplogroup most frequent in, and associated with, Albanians. In the village of Trushi i Madh (recorded as Trompsi i Madh) there are 2 individuals with the surname Piperi: Jon Piperi and Andrea Piperi. There was also a Kalozorzi Piperi from the village of Dozan. Not sure on the etymology of Kalozorz, however it seems similar to the Albanian kalorŰs (knight). However, it could also be a variant of the Venetian name Zorzi which seems to be a variant of Giorgi or George.

We can also see some other potential tribal communities or families forming, for example the Kastrati in the village of Kastrat: Aleks Kastrati (head of the village), Markjen Kastrati, Aleks Kastrati, LazŰr Kastrati and Pal Kastrati. It's possible that the head of the village, Aleks Kastrati, was the same person as Alexius Kastrati who was given a gift by the governor of Shkodra in 1403, he was noted as being a lord of 3 villages.

Also a possible Thaši in the village of GrizhŰ: Peran Tjaši (Thaši). Thaši oral tradition states origin from around lake Shkodra, possibly around Muriqan. The village of GrizhŰ in this context seems to have been located just south of Koplik, though this is based on its location in 1485.

Keqa
02-15-2020, 05:35 PM
I agree that they pushed out and/or absorbed the Anas, but we have no evidence that identifies Anas with Hoti of Venetian times. In fact, we have no evidence of anyone coming from the north to settle in those parts in the late 15th century. The last Venetian mention of Hoti is 1474-1477 (and they have no further presence for the following years, so no reports as Ottomans take over) and it talks about the mountains of Hoti, resistance to the Ottomans etc. In 1485, this is called the nahiya of Hoti, it's smaller than Venetian Hoti because they've lost privileges (but has expanded to the north), but the main villages that were there did exist also before 1474, they weren't created in that 10-year-gap and there's no record of anyone coming there. In fact, Geg of Stanash Keqi is the biggest village of Hoti and it's clear that it didn't come into existence in just 10 years. There's also the continuity in relations with the Ottomans. Hoti of 1474 was in fierce battle with them, Hoti of 1485 has no timar holders, which means that the Ottomans have recognized a sort of semi-autonomy. This couldn't have happened without conflict. Also the taxation of Hoti of 1485 is the same as that of Venetian times in contrast to many communities around them. This is a sign of recognition of pre-Ottoman privileges. For this to happen, the Ottomans recognized continuity, which couldn't have happened if they were dealing with a different clan that took over in Hoti.

The village that exemplifies the whole Hoti-Anas relation is Traboin to me as Vuksanlekaj is very new (18th century) in territory where no Anas lived. Traboin in contrast appears in 1582 in the same location as a small village in Hoti called Oblana (if I remember correctly, 8-10 households), which wasn't in the land of Hoti in Venetian times. This village ceases to existsand Traboin is born. That to me shows the process you're describing.

Also: many tribes are polyphyletic and thus do intermarry within their tribe, but Hoti doesn't intermarry within Hoti just with the few Anas that still lived there patrilineally.
All brotherhoods went back to one single ancestor only in 13 generations during Edith Durham’s time, hence why she dated their expansion to 1590. That doesn’t necessarily mean they came from somewhere else, but it does tell us that the other fractions there most likely formed majority during the period we were discussing. Mid 16th century perhaps is the period when tide shifted to their favour.

We have Hoti of Tropoje (Berbati), Hoti of Krushe and Ratkoc who trace their ancestry to Hoti i Vendit (Plaves), Hoti of Lure and Marashi from Podgorice, who trace their ancestry to Vuksanlekaj, that have tested as R1b-Z2705. We also have Hoti of Selite (Beci) and some Hoti from Sanxhak, who possibly are from Hoti i Vendit (Plaves) with origin, that have tested as J2b-PH1751.


Who’s graves are those in Vuksanlekaj then if it didn’t exist as a settlement? It probably existed under a different name or as part of another bigger settlement.

Dibran
02-17-2020, 09:41 AM
Was wondering if you could post the link to the cadaster of Venetian Scutari (1416-17)? I've been trying to find this source for quite some time.


Wow this is amazing! Fascinating information actually. Thank you very much! I can barely find any information in the internet about the Reši tribe of the Shkoder area so your information here is quite valuable I think. So we can now say for sure with confidence that the Reši tribe of the Shkoder area became a true tribal community around the year 1485?


I definitely agree with your comment about collective memory being used in tropes that fit contemporary events. All oral tradition agrees on one thing: that they were fleeing from somewhere. In the late 19th century that someone became the "Turks", but for the era they were talking about it couldn't have been the Ottomans. Now given that they usually add an area where they stayed for some time before coming to their present lands that time slot could be anywhere from a few years to a few generations, so it's very possible that they are referring the collapse of the Byzantine frontier in the early middle ages.

I agree that they pushed out and/or absorbed the Anas, but we have no evidence that identifies Anas with Hoti of Venetian times. In fact, we have no evidence of anyone coming from the north to settle in those parts in the late 15th century. The last Venetian mention of Hoti is 1474-1477 (and they have no further presence for the following years, so no reports as Ottomans take over) and it talks about the mountains of Hoti, resistance to the Ottomans etc. In 1485, this is called the nahiya of Hoti, it's smaller than Venetian Hoti because they've lost privileges (but has expanded to the north), but the main villages that were there did exist also before 1474, they weren't created in that 10-year-gap and there's no record of anyone coming there. In fact, Geg of Stanash Keqi is the biggest village of Hoti and it's clear that it didn't come into existence in just 10 years. There's also the continuity in relations with the Ottomans. Hoti of 1474 was in fierce battle with them, Hoti of 1485 has no timar holders, which means that the Ottomans have recognized a sort of semi-autonomy. This couldn't have happened without conflict. Also the taxation of Hoti of 1485 is the same as that of Venetian times in contrast to many communities around them. This is a sign of recognition of pre-Ottoman privileges. For this to happen, the Ottomans recognized continuity, which couldn't have happened if they were dealing with a different clan that took over in Hoti.

The village that exemplifies the whole Hoti-Anas relation is Traboin to me as Vuksanlekaj is very new (18th century) in territory where no Anas lived. Traboin in contrast appears in 1582 in the same location as a small village in Hoti called Oblana (if I remember correctly, 8-10 households), which wasn't in the land of Hoti in Venetian times. This village ceases to existsand Traboin is born. That to me shows the process you're describing.

Also: many tribes are polyphyletic and thus do intermarry within their tribe, but Hoti doesn't intermarry within Hoti just with the few Anas that still lived there patrilineally.

I have a Marku match. Waiting for confirmation of village/clan. He claims descent from Kukes. He is R-CTS9219

Bruzmi
02-17-2020, 11:23 AM
The 13 generations record though is just Edith Durham's quick summary of a story. What I'm saying is that we can't rely on that just because Edith Durham asked Marash Uci and recorded it with no research, no comparison from other interviews, no actual interview process and no anthropological framework.

Historical records show that more generations existed. The Geg village existed in 1485, so even if we go strictly by the oral stories, some generations are missing in the oral tradition. The head of Geg, which is the head village of Hoti in 1485 is a Stanash Keqi, so this person was in all probability the head of Hoti in 1485. From his patronymic he is most definitely someone from the Keq Preka/Panta/Ponti line. So this brotherhood was the head brotherhood back then.

There is literally nothing at all that gives credence to Edith Durham's calculation about 1520. And nobody who came after her, gave her hypothesis any credence either and she abandoned it herself by 1928. So there's no reason we should include it in our analysis. In fact, the only reason I myself started thinking about her hypothesis is because Robert Elsie without using actual historical records made it popular by using it verbatim in his book "Tribes of Albania" and then it became even more popular because someone on wikipedia who had access to nothing else decided to add that piece of information on every article about Albanian tribes. Afterwards, all kinds of sites just copy/pasted that idea from wikipedia.

The interesting thing with the site of Vuksanlekaj though is that it has been used as a burial and religious site since the Iron Age in a continuous manner, so each population group followed the pattern of the previous one in identifying the site and using it in such a way. So, unless a proper archaeological excavation is done, we can't answer "which population does X DNA belong to" with certainty. Anton Lulgjuraj, an excellent scholar of the younger generation just wrote a paper about it that is worth reading https://www.academia.edu/41628378/Vuksanleki%C4%87i_anti%C4%8Dki_kasnoanti%C4%8Dki_l okalitet_i_novi_arheolo%C5%A1ki_podaci_Vuksanleki% C4%87i_Roman_Late_Roman_site_and_New_Archaeologica l_Data_Nova_Anti%C4%8Dka_Duklja_X_Podgorica_2019_p ._95-110

I believe that DNA research is extremely valuable and can answer many questions, but it can answer those questions based on two conditions a)that it's done on a massive scale of n > 1000 b)that it's done as part of an interdisciplinary approach (archaeology, history, anthropology) with proper interviewing processes etc.

Now that would involve many people, both academics and independent researchers, the public, local folklore/history/cultural groups in MalŰsia etc and of course a quite big (in comparison to Balkan standards) crowdfunding campaign. That is what I think should be done and I'd be more than willing to involve myself in organizing such a thing if there was a dedicated group that would want to get involved in a collective, transparent, horizontal in decision-making and open process.

J Man
02-17-2020, 11:32 AM
I have a Marku match. Waiting for confirmation of village/clan. He claims descent from Kukes. He is R-CTS9219

Is this directed to my question or one of the other quotes?

Bruzmi
02-17-2020, 11:46 AM
Thanks for the sources

I found some individuals who carried the surname Piperi in 2 villages around the lowlands of Shkodra. Can't really be sure if these individuals had anything to do with the Piperi tribe of Montenegro, however it is interesting as the Piperi are primarily R-Z2705>FT48939. Z2705 being a haplogroup most frequent in, and associated with, Albanians. In the village of Trushi i Madh (recorded as Trompsi i Madh) there are 2 individuals with the surname Piperi: Jon Piperi and Andrea Piperi. There was also a Kalozorzi Piperi from the village of Dozan. Not sure on the etymology of Kalozorz, however it seems similar to the Albanian kalorŰs (knight). However, it could also be a variant of the Venetian name Zorzi which seems to be a variant of Giorgi or George.

We can also see some other potential tribal communities or families forming, for example the Kastrati in the village of Kastrat: Aleks Kastrati (head of the village), Markjen Kastrati, Aleks Kastrati, LazŰr Kastrati and Pal Kastrati. It's possible that the head of the village, Aleks Kastrati, was the same person as Alexius Kastrati who was given a gift by the governor of Shkodra in 1403, he was noted as being a lord of 3 villages.

Also a possible Thaši in the village of GrizhŰ: Peran Tjaši (Thaši). Thaši oral tradition states origin from around lake Shkodra, possibly around Muriqan. The village of GrizhŰ in this context seems to have been located just south of Koplik, though this is based on its location in 1485.

Great findings! Kalozorzi could also mean "George the Horse" (as a way to say George the Cavalryman) so it may actually mean just what you thought originally.

In the same village as Peran Tjaši is also a Lazer Matagulshi who is definitely related to the medieval tribe of Mataguzi/Matagushi. Now this village remains and reminds as that it once existed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matagu%C5%BEi

I also find it interesting that in these villages you see a process of de-tribalization. People of different kin relations come together to form settlements that aren't based on common ancestry. This process ended with the arrival of the Ottomans as a return to the safety of the tribal community followed it.

Kelmendasi
02-17-2020, 01:16 PM
I have a Marku match. Waiting for confirmation of village/clan. He claims descent from Kukes. He is R-CTS9219
There are Marku from the village of Kalis, KukŰs, which is located on the border with northern Dibra. It is also a part of the larger Luma region.

Dibran
02-17-2020, 01:34 PM
There are Marku from the village of Kalis, KukŰs, which is located on the border with northern Dibra. It is also a part of the larger Luma region.

Is this where the Marku clan is supposed to descend? Maybe that is his village.

Kelmendasi
02-17-2020, 03:20 PM
Is this where the Marku clan is supposed to descend? Maybe that is his village.
I suspect that's where the Marku of KukŰs hail from. Thing is that, like many other Albanian surnames, Marku is a patronymic surname (a surname derived from the name of a paternal ancestor) and so many who carry this surname are actually unrelated to each other. For example, Marku is a pretty common surname around the area of Lezha (and other predominantly Catholic regions), most of these individuals have origin from MirditŰ or MalŰsi, however for some of the Marku of KukŰs it is from the region of LumŰ.

Keqa
02-17-2020, 03:35 PM
The 13 generations record though is just Edith Durham's quick summary of a story. What I'm saying is that we can't rely on that just because Edith Durham asked Marash Uci and recorded it with no research, no comparison from other interviews, no actual interview process and no anthropological framework.

Historical records show that more generations existed. The Geg village existed in 1485, so even if we go strictly by the oral stories, some generations are missing in the oral tradition. The head of Geg, which is the head village of Hoti in 1485 is a Stanash Keqi, so this person was in all probability the head of Hoti in 1485. From his patronymic he is most definitely someone from the Keq Preka/Panta/Ponti line. So this brotherhood was the head brotherhood back then.

There is literally nothing at all that gives credence to Edith Durham's calculation about 1520. And nobody who came after her, gave her hypothesis any credence either and she abandoned it herself by 1928. So there's no reason we should include it in our analysis. In fact, the only reason I myself started thinking about her hypothesis is because Robert Elsie without using actual historical records made it popular by using it verbatim in his book "Tribes of Albania" and then it became even more popular because someone on wikipedia who had access to nothing else decided to add that piece of information on every article about Albanian tribes. Afterwards, all kinds of sites just copy/pasted that idea from wikipedia.

The interesting thing with the site of Vuksanlekaj though is that it has been used as a burial and religious site since the Iron Age in a continuous manner, so each population group followed the pattern of the previous one in identifying the site and using it in such a way. So, unless a proper archaeological excavation is done, we can't answer "which population does X DNA belong to" with certainty. Anton Lulgjuraj, an excellent scholar of the younger generation just wrote a paper about it that is worth reading https://www.academia.edu/41628378/Vuksanleki%C4%87i_anti%C4%8Dki_kasnoanti%C4%8Dki_l okalitet_i_novi_arheolo%C5%A1ki_podaci_Vuksanleki% C4%87i_Roman_Late_Roman_site_and_New_Archaeologica l_Data_Nova_Anti%C4%8Dka_Duklja_X_Podgorica_2019_p ._95-110

I believe that DNA research is extremely valuable and can answer many questions, but it can answer those questions based on two conditions a)that it's done on a massive scale of n > 1000 b)that it's done as part of an interdisciplinary approach (archaeology, history, anthropology) with proper interviewing processes etc.

Now that would involve many people, both academics and independent researchers, the public, local folklore/history/cultural groups in Mal├źsia etc and of course a quite big (in comparison to Balkan standards) crowdfunding campaign. That is what I think should be done and I'd be more than willing to involve myself in organizing such a thing if there was a dedicated group that would want to get involved in a collective, transparent, horizontal in decision-making and open process.

She basically recorded what the tribesmen remembered. She wasn’t the only one either, other travellers recorded similar findings - traditions that can still be encountered among Hoti. They might be inaccurate as we have seen with other tribes, but we shouldn’t dismiss what Marash Uci passed down without putting it to a test.

To get a general idea it’s actually fairly simple at this point, all we need is a Hoti from Rapshe to go for a
Next Generation Sequencing/Whole Genome Sequencing test since a Traboini fella has already done it. Some of the formulas, especially that of Yfull, might be underestimating their tmcra for a bit which might prove to be of not much use since the gap we are aiming for is pretty tight, but nonetheless we would get a general idea when the main brotherhoods branched off.

Yeah, I don’t doubt it that it goes back to Iron Age. Pretty typical for such sites to be reused by the locals. Some of the tumuli around there were in use up to the Roman period. Lulgjuraj however only touches the Roman period. Majority of the beautiful stone work date to the period between Middle Ages and 19th century.


Number is not much of an issue now because we have already isolated vast majority of our linages, especially among the major tribes. What we really need is to work on those remains and not just there. The more the merrier ;)

J Man
02-17-2020, 04:14 PM
By the way, I want to "thank you" for the comments you've written but the feature doesn't seem to work properly. So, I'll do it in the form of comment: Thank you friends for the very interesting discussion we're having!!

I'm reading and re-reading a lot the defter of 1485 of the sanjak of "Iskodra". We know that the Reši tribe came from the clan village of Reši that under pressure by the Ottomans abandoned lowland life and became a tribal community in the mountains. In 1485, in fact it's described as being located both in the mountains and in the plains. I've uploaded the register of 1485 for the village: https://archive.org/details/recialb

Now, this village also existed in 1416. What is noteworthy is that as you can see https://archive.org/details/reci1416 in the cadaster of Venetian Scutari in 1416-17 the full name of the clan is Kereši and "Reši" is its short form and the village name.

There's also another village properly called Kereši which could be the original clan village from which this branch sprang. It's also evident that not everyone who lived in 1416 in Reši is a member of the same kin except for the Kereši founders who form the majority. As opposed to 1485, this was a village under Venice and was moving into its trade network etc. so people who didn't necessarily have kin bonds lived in the same settlement. For example, Barbullushi means that the person came from the village Barbullush, Grubina also existed in other villages. Bukadjatha (bread and cheese literally in Albanian) denotes that the person was either very poor or unmarried, so they may or may not be Kereši. Patronymics like "Marku" mean that this person was probably from the same clan as the founders so there's no need to use his full name.

Sorry to repeat this same post that I made a few days ago but I am just very interested in this. I hope that my questions are not bothering you. :)

Wow this is amazing! Fascinating information actually. Thank you very much! I can barely find any information in the internet about the Reši tribe of the Shkoder area so your information here is quite valuable I think. So we can now say for sure with confidence that the Reši tribe of the Shkoder area became a true tribal community around the year 1485?

Dibran
02-17-2020, 04:37 PM
I suspect that's where the Marku of KukŰs hail from. Thing is that, like many other Albanian surnames, Marku is a patronymic surname (a surname derived from the name of a paternal ancestor) and so many who carry this surname are actually unrelated to each other. For example, Marku is a pretty common surname around the area of Lezha (and other predominantly Catholic regions), most of these individuals have origin from MirditŰ or MalŰsi, however for some of the Marku of KukŰs it is from the region of LumŰ.

Interesting. Kind of like the E-V13 Reši case from Tirana.

Kelmendasi
02-17-2020, 05:04 PM
Interesting. Kind of like the E-V13 Reši case from Tirana.
Yeah, other examples include those with surnames such as Gjoni, Gjoka, Hasani etc. Interestingly, many Reši from LezhŰ, Laš, TiranŰ etc, actually claim to share common origin from Reš (Zall-Reš and the surrounding villages) in DibŰr. Though we need to test more with this surname from different regions in order to know for sure if there is a relation between them.

Then there are those Reši from around Shkodra who originate from Reš in MalŰsia and share no relation with the Reši who claim descent from DibŰr.

Dibran
02-17-2020, 06:57 PM
There are Marku from the village of Kalis, KukŰs, which is located on the border with northern Dibra. It is also a part of the larger Luma region.

Semi-off subject. Check out the K13 thread I started for Vahaduo. Kaspias added various Pomak, Torbesh, Vlach, and Balkan Turk samples. There are even some other sample groups.

Bruzmi
02-17-2020, 11:19 PM
Sorry for not replying earlier! I think that we can be sure that in 1485 it was in the process of becoming a tribal community and that process crystallized by the early 16th century.

Some stuff I've been working on wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triepshi_(tribe) The Trie(p)shi tribe of left-bank Cem. About the discussion we were having about whether the Bankeqi stem was related to the Hoti brotherhoods, someone (I think it was Keqa) pointed out that from the sampling we have they don't seem to be related as in the stories (correct me if I undestood the discussion in a wrong way). I was thinking that a) we need more sampling b) there is another way in which oral tradition could verify a certain common patrilineal kinship between Hoti and Trie(p)shi and that is through the Delaj brotherhood that stems from the medieval tribe of Bitidosi (Bythadosi)....which in 1415 shows up in records in union with Hoti and Tuzi (which became one of the ancestral lineages of Gruda).

I was also reading documents about the events (1399-1403) that preluded the first war of Shkodra today. All tribes that were in the region show up: Bythadosi, Tuzi, Mataguzi etc. Feudal Albanian families like Jonima and Dukagjini also show up. Even minor Albanian urban families like Lumbardini make their cameo ( :P ). But guess who doesn't show up? Hoti. And I think that the most obvious explanation is that they weren't in the region. About 13 years later they appear as a regional power and the Venetians promise them privileges if they assist them. So, I think that this might the period in which they went southwards. Of course more research is needed.

The other thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrkojevi%C4%87i I found it interesting that they appear in oral tradition as related to Hoti, so I checked some early defters about them, and yes it appears they once had also a Catholic Albanian stem (but most today come from families that settled there in the 19th century). The article on wikipedia is based on some major research that has appeared on Mrkojevići the last couple of years.

Kelmendasi
02-18-2020, 12:38 AM
Sorry for not replying earlier! I think that we can be sure that in 1485 it was in the process of becoming a tribal community and that process crystallized by the early 16th century.

Some stuff I've been working on wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triepshi_(tribe) The Trie(p)shi tribe of left-bank Cem. About the discussion we were having about whether the Bankeqi stem was related to the Hoti brotherhoods, someone (I think it was Keqa) pointed out that from the sampling we have they don't seem to be related as in the stories (correct me if I undestood the discussion in a wrong way). I was thinking that a) we need more sampling b) there is another way in which oral tradition could verify a certain common patrilineal kinship between Hoti and Trie(p)shi and that is through the Delaj brotherhood that stems from the medieval tribe of Bitidosi (Bythadosi)....which in 1415 shows up in records in union with Hoti and Tuzi (which became one of the ancestral lineages of Gruda).

I was also reading documents about the events (1399-1403) that preluded the first war of Shkodra today. All tribes that were in the region show up: Bythadosi, Tuzi, Mataguzi etc. Feudal Albanian families like Jonima and Dukagjini also show up. Even minor Albanian urban families like Lumbardini make their cameo ( :P ). But guess who doesn't show up? Hoti. And I think that the most obvious explanation is that they weren't in the region. About 13 years later they appear as a regional power and the Venetians promise them privileges if they assist them. So, I think that this might the period in which they went southwards. Of course more research is needed.

The other thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrkojevi%C4%87i I found it interesting that they appear in oral tradition as related to Hoti, so I checked some early defters about them, and yes it appears they once had also a Catholic Albanian stem (but most today come from families that settled there in the 19th century). The article on wikipedia is based on some major research that has appeared on Mrkojevići the last couple of years.
Yeah, based on the samples thus far, the Bankeqi brotherhoods of Trieshi are unrelated to the Hoti in terms of paternal origin. They belong to haplogroup E-BY168279, the Kuši tribe (Mrnjavčići and Drekalovići brotherhoods) are BY168279>BY165837 and so share a common ancestor with the Bankeqi ~1,400 years ago according to the Yfull calculation https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY168279/. This further supports the Albanian origin of the Kuši, something which was already suggested based on historical sources and oral tradition. The Hoti in contrast are J2b-Y166564 and so belong to a completely different haplogroup.

However, the Benkaj/Bekaj families do not belong to E-BY168279 and seem to be primarily R-Z2705>BY38894, with some families being J-Y19093. I'm pretty sure that they match some families from GrudŰ as well as an individual from around Podgorica who claims descent from Hoti. As for the Delaj, is there any evidence suggesting that they do stem from the Bythadosi?

J Man
02-18-2020, 01:03 AM
Sorry for not replying earlier! I think that we can be sure that in 1485 it was in the process of becoming a tribal community and that process crystallized by the early 16th century.

Some stuff I've been working on wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triepshi_(tribe) The Trie(p)shi tribe of left-bank Cem. About the discussion we were having about whether the Bankeqi stem was related to the Hoti brotherhoods, someone (I think it was Keqa) pointed out that from the sampling we have they don't seem to be related as in the stories (correct me if I undestood the discussion in a wrong way). I was thinking that a) we need more sampling b) there is another way in which oral tradition could verify a certain common patrilineal kinship between Hoti and Trie(p)shi and that is through the Delaj brotherhood that stems from the medieval tribe of Bitidosi (Bythadosi)....which in 1415 shows up in records in union with Hoti and Tuzi (which became one of the ancestral lineages of Gruda).

I was also reading documents about the events (1399-1403) that preluded the first war of Shkodra today. All tribes that were in the region show up: Bythadosi, Tuzi, Mataguzi etc. Feudal Albanian families like Jonima and Dukagjini also show up. Even minor Albanian urban families like Lumbardini make their cameo ( :P ). But guess who doesn't show up? Hoti. And I think that the most obvious explanation is that they weren't in the region. About 13 years later they appear as a regional power and the Venetians promise them privileges if they assist them. So, I think that this might the period in which they went southwards. Of course more research is needed.

The other thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrkojevi%C4%87i I found it interesting that they appear in oral tradition as related to Hoti, so I checked some early defters about them, and yes it appears they once had also a Catholic Albanian stem (but most today come from families that settled there in the 19th century). The article on wikipedia is based on some major research that has appeared on Mrkojevići the last couple of years.

No problem at all. Is that first paragraph directed towards my question?

Bruzmi
02-18-2020, 01:14 AM
Yes, if you check the 1485 defter in Bitidosi the head of the village is a person with the patronymic Deli(a).

Yes it was J Man :D ! We can be pretty sure that this is the time framework in which they became a "proper" tribe. Another interesting point is that if we look around their property as Kereši in 1416, we find that they are mostly farmers and their names also show contact with urban Latin/Romance culture. A possible etymology of their surname could be from the work 'qerret", which is a sort of agricultural tool in Albanian and would be synonymous with "farmer" when used as a surname in medieval Albania.

When did the family of the person from Podgorica get there from Hoti? There were quite a few of Hoti origin that settled in regional cities. They were mostly Muslims from what I gather.

Kelmendasi
02-18-2020, 01:25 AM
Yes, if you check the 1485 defter in Bitidosi the head of the village is a person with the patronymic Deli(a).

When did the family of the person from Podgorica get there from Hoti? There were quite a few of Hoti origin that settled in regional cities. They were mostly Muslims from what I gather.
Very interesting.

His family are actually from the region of Zeta or the lowlands south of Podgorica, around lake Shkodra. Not too sure when they arrived, however they claim descent from Vuksanlekaj and claim to have fled as they refused to convert to Catholicism. Today they speak Serbian and don't identify as Albanians (as far as I am aware), though their surname is clearly of Albanian etymology (Maraši or Marashi).

J Man
02-18-2020, 01:35 AM
Yes, if you check the 1485 defter in Bitidosi the head of the village is a person with the patronymic Deli(a).

Yes it was J Man :D ! We can be pretty sure that this is the time framework in which they became a "proper" tribe. Another interesting point is that if we look around their property as Kereši in 1416, we find that they are mostly farmers and their names also show contact with urban Latin/Romance culture. A possible etymology of their surname could be from the work 'qerret", which is a sort of agricultural tool in Albanian and would be synonymous with "farmer" when used as a surname in medieval Albania.

When did the family of the person from Podgorica get there from Hoti? There were quite a few of Hoti origin that settled in regional cities. They were mostly Muslims from what I gather.

Very interesting thank you! So by the early 16th century then we can conclude with confidence that the Reši of the Shkoder area were formed as a true proper tribe correct?

Bruzmi
02-18-2020, 01:41 AM
Yes, most definitely, J Man.

Bekaj are from Rijeka Ivan Beka, hence the surname "Bekaj", so a Gruda relation to the Tuzi stem would make sense.

Keqa
02-18-2020, 01:44 AM
Yeah Kelmendasi is correct.

As for Delaj, they have tested too and they actually appear to be related to Benkaj because they are R1b-Z2705.

Keqa
02-18-2020, 02:09 AM
Marashi claim to have migrated from Vuksanlekaj to Podgorica few hundred years ago. The Orthodox tradition is obviously not true. They converted to Orthodoxy down there in the plains. Serbian ethnographers made stuff up as they went, for many families even in Malesi, so I would take them with a grain of salt.

Now we see that all these families like Marashi, Delaj, Benkaj etc are just natives to that region of Malesi. R1b-Z2705 is heavy concentrated there, found among Kelmendi, Kastrati, Shkreli, Gruda, Koje, Trieshi and some Hoti.

J Man
02-18-2020, 02:51 AM
Yes, most definitely, J Man.

Bekaj are from Rijeka Ivan Beka, hence the surname "Bekaj", so a Gruda relation to the Tuzi stem would make sense.

Thank you! :)...Interesting that you mention that the Reši tribe surnames of the Shkoder area show contact with old urban Latin/Romance culture yet they were farmers. I know that their area is not all that far from the town of Koplik but their old traditional tribal territory is rural correct?

Bruzmi
02-18-2020, 11:13 AM
Yes, the story about refusing to convert to Catholicism is definitely made up. It is so a)because the only recorded Muslim families in Hoti was those of the bajraktars Junšaj brotherhood/vllazni > Lucgjonaj br. > Cun Mula. We have very detailed family trees for that event from the very beginning in the year 1696. b)as the conversion was political the bajraktars of Hoti still took part in mass and still held the feast for the patron saint of Hoti, John the Baptist. c) by means of a total religious tolerance based on the unity of the Fis (tribe) there was never any inter-religious tension within Hoti so the story is made up by some descendant if the original person was indeed from Hoti. That is why archival research is needed to verify claims and also more sampling is necessary in a organized manner. During summer many emigrants return to MalŰsia, so a campaign at that time *on the field* would yield years and years of work.

The (Ke)reši personal names (not surnames) showing influence of urban Latin culture makes a lot of sense I think. If this was an agricultural community (all evidence points to that, from their ancestral village etc.) they would be travelling to Shkodra, Drisht and as far as Ulqin and DurrŰs for quite a few generations to sell their products. Their idea of upward mobility would be to join the ranks of the urban dwellers, merchants etc. who were part of the "Adriatic world" of Venice and Ragusa. That is how you get names like "Ambroz" (Ambrosius) or "Sergj" (Sergius) and "Zorzi" (instead of Gjon) next to all the typical names like Gjergj/Gjin Reši.

Kelmendasi
02-18-2020, 02:05 PM
Yes, most definitely, J Man.

Bekaj are from Rijeka Ivan Beka, hence the surname "Bekaj", so a Gruda relation to the Tuzi stem would make sense.
I believe that the story of descent from Rijeka Ivan Beka or Rijeka Crnojevića is made up. As Keqa said, the fact that they match some families from GrudŰ, Delaj etc suggests that they are likely locals of the area. I remember reading similar stories about certain Albanian families from Kuši, who apparently stemmed from Cetinje, however testing shows that they too are just locals of the area as they match other families from the region.

I think we should try look more into the Gruda as well. The surname shows up in the cadaster of 1416-17 in multiple villages: Aleks Gruda from Pastropat, Aleks Gruda from ShŰn Auraš, Gjergj Gruda from Keqol, Jon and NikollŰ Gruda from GrizhŰ, Jon Gruda from Rrjoll, NikŰ Gruda from Koplik and NikollŰ Gruda from ShkodŰr. The name also shows up in the defter of 1485 in the village of Koplik (Gjon Gruda and Petri, son of GrudŰ) and Gruda (Vola, son of GrudŰ and Vuku, son of GrudŰ). Though we know that Gruda is made up of 2 main branches; the branch that descends from Vuksan Gjela/Gela who arrived from SumŰ after the Ottoman occupation, most families from GrudŰ come from this branch. The families descending from Vuksan Gjela seem to primarily be J2b-Y82533>CTS8786 (some families though are also R-Z2705 and E-BY168279+). Then there is the Berishaj branch that supposedly arrived from around Dukagjin prior to the migration of Vuksan Gjela, not too sure what Y-DNA the Berishaj belong however I suspect that it's E-V13 (BY168279?). Then there are some families who are said to be the natives.

Drenica
02-18-2020, 02:30 PM
Kuqi originated in Northern Albania, they are considered a branch of Berisha and are called Berishe e Kuqe. Never any doubt they were of Albanian origin. They still live in Albania and Kosovo. The ones in Montenegro have migrated there and many of them got Serbianized basically. Kuqi tribal area is in Northern Albania.

Kelmendasi
02-18-2020, 02:43 PM
Kuqi originated in Northern Albania, they are considered a branch of Berisha and are called Berishe e Kuqe. Never any doubt they were of Albanian origin. They still live in Albania and Kosovo. The ones in Montenegro have migrated there and many of them got Serbianized basically. Kuqi tribal area is in Northern Albania.
Yeah, both the Mrnjavčići and Drekalovići branches of Kuši have oral tradition claiming descent from around Shkodra. The name Kuši is also first recorded in 1330 in the village/katun of Lješa Tuza (Llesh Tuzi?) which was an Albanian katun located somewhere around MalŰsi. The Drekalovići seem to have been primarily Albanian speaking up until the conversion of Lale Drekalov (Lal Ndreka) to Orthodoxy in the 16th or 17th Century. This conversion is what seems to have led to the mass conversion of the Albanian Kuši.

The Kuši tribal area is actually in eastern Montenegro on the border with Albanian tribes such as the Trieshi and Gruda, there are Kuši in Albania however most seem to have come originally from Montenegro. Interestingly, the Kuši of Kosovo so far seem to belong to a different branch of V13 (L241) than the Kuši of MalŰsi. Probably represent a different branch that moved east, or maybe joined the Kuši.

By the way, someone who actually knows what they're talking about needs to edit the Kuši wiki page, it's honestly unsightly right now. Very clear that a member of the Bosniak project edited it, they try and deny any connection to Albanians. For example, rather than saying "the names of Slavic and Albanian residents are recorded", they say "the names of Slavic and Illyrian residents are recorded". There were no such thing as Illyrians in 1485.

Drenica
02-18-2020, 02:59 PM
Yeah, both the Mrnjavčići and Drekalovići branches of Kuši have oral tradition claiming descent from around Shkodra. The name Kuši is also first recorded in 1330 in the village/katun of Lješa Tuza (Llesh Tuzi?) which was an Albanian katun located somewhere around MalŰsi. The Drekalovići seem to have been primarily Albanian speaking up until the conversion of Lale Drekalov (Lal Ndreka) to Orthodoxy in the 16th or 17th Century. This conversion is what seems to have led to the mass conversion of the Albanian Kuši.

The Kuši tribal area is actually in eastern Montenegro on the border with Albanian tribes such as the Trieshi and Gruda, there are Kuši in Albania however most seem to have come originally from Montenegro. Interestingly, the Kuši of Kosovo so far seem to belong to a different branch of V13 (L241) than the Kuši of MalŰsi. Probably represent a different branch that moved east.

Very interesting.

My mother's village in Kosovo are Kuqi (from Prekaz) and neighboring village Galice where Azem Galica was from are all Kuqi too. But never bothered testing them although I said I was gonna test them. Maybe I will one day.

Drenica
02-18-2020, 03:01 PM
And yeah, part of Malsia today is within Montenegro as it was occupied by Montenegro in the Balkan wars. I know part of Kelmendi today is also in Montenegro with the other part in Northern Albania.

Medieval Zeta rulers were at least partially Albanian I believe.

Kelmendasi
02-18-2020, 03:06 PM
Very interesting.

My mother's village in Kosovo are Kuqi (from Prekaz) and neighboring village Galice where Azem Galica was from are all Kuqi too. But never bothered testing them although I said I was gonna test them. Maybe I will one day.
Well a person from a GalicŰ has tested on 23andme as E-L241 which fits in with what was expected as another Kuši from TŰrnac also tested as such. The Kuši from TŰrnac is also genealogically related to the Jashari as far as I know, which further suggests that the Kuši of DrenicŰ are predominately E-L241.

Dibran
02-18-2020, 03:45 PM
.....................

Semi off topic. I found a Albanian book site that sells books we can't get in English or here in the states. I found the book "Historie E Dibres" by Kristo Frasheri and have it on order. Will let you know once I get it if you need me to look something up. Better than just having the few page screenshots from the user over seas lol. The book site is https://bukinist.al/en/.

Maybe there is something else there regarding other regions.

Kelmendasi
02-18-2020, 03:58 PM
Semi off topic. I found a Albanian book site that sells books we can't get in English or here in the states. I found the book "Historie E Dibres" by Kristo Frasheri and have it on order. Will let you know once I get it if you need me to look something up. Better than just having the few page screenshots from the user over seas lol. The book site is https://bukinist.al/en/.

Maybe there is something else there regarding other regions.
Nice find, I have already found a number of books that cover the area of MalŰsi e Madhe. By the way, there are also sites such as https://www.adrionltd.com/en/3-albanian-books and https://botimpex.com/ that sell Albanian books.

Drenica
02-18-2020, 04:08 PM
Nice find, I have already found a number of books that cover the area of MalŰsi e Madhe.

Bro, what do you know about the Dardha tribe ? Their name is similar to the Dardani.

Anyone tested from there ?

Kelmendasi
02-18-2020, 04:24 PM
Bro, what do you know about the Dardha tribe ? Their name is similar to the Dardani.

Anyone tested from there ?
From what I understand, Dardha was/is one of the 9 mountains (ethnographic/tribal regions) of Dibra. It seems that the Dardha were once part of a union with the Reši called Reš e DardhŰ, it is later on that the two split from each other. As for their distant origin, I am not too sure however I see that there are some families who supposedly came from Kosovo. Should also note that in the nearby region of ăidhŰn many families came from areas such as MirditŰ so it could be a similar case for the Dardha. Today DardhŰ includes the villages of Tartaj, LashkizŰ, Merskane, SoricŰ, Zall-DardhŰ, Lugjaj, Shenllesh and Nezhaj.

I don't think they are directly related to the Dardani, they just probably share a common etymology. Albanian dardhŰ (pear) comes from Proto-Albanian dardā.

Not too sure if anyone from there has tested, but I believe there was a guy from there on another forum who was I2a-M223.

Drenica
02-18-2020, 04:55 PM
From what I understand, Dardha was/is one of the 9 mountains (ethnographic/tribal regions) of Dibra. It seems that the Dardha were once part of a union with the Reši called Reš e DardhŰ, it is later on that the two split from each other. As for their distant origin, I am not too sure however I see that there are some families who supposedly came from Kosovo. Should also note that in the nearby region of ăidhŰn many families came from areas such as MirditŰ so it could be a similar case for the Dardha. Today DardhŰ includes the villages of Tartaj, LashkizŰ, Merskane, SoricŰ, Zall-DardhŰ, Lugjaj, Shenllesh and Nezhaj.

I don't think they are directly related to the Dardani, they just probably share a common etymology. Albanian dardhŰ (pear) comes from Proto-Albanian dardā.

Not too sure if anyone from there has tested, but I believe there was a guy from there on another forum who was I2a-M223.

Very interesting. I know Shala claims to of come from Kosovo.

I2a-M223 is I2a2 ?

That Bronze Age in Bulgaria was I2a2 ? And also a Hunter Gatherer from Serbia ?

Do you know anything about these subclades or the origin of I2a2 in Albanians ? Seems to be native Balkan haplogroup ?

Kelmendasi
02-18-2020, 05:24 PM
Very interesting. I know Shala claims to of come from Kosovo.

I2a-M223 is I2a2 ?

That Bronze Age in Bulgaria was I2a2 ? And also a Hunter Gatherer from Serbia ?

Do you know anything about these subclades or the origin of I2a2 in Albanians ? Seems to be native Balkan haplogroup ?
There are multiple stories in regards to the origin of the Shala from what I know. The main one seems to be the story that states that there were once 3 brothers (Zog Diti ancestor of Shala, Mark Diti ancestor of Shoshi and Mir Diti ancestor of the Oroshi, Spaši and Kushneni bajraks of Mirdita) who migrated from the mountains of Pashtrik, the highlands bordering NE Albania and Kosovo. From there they went to lowlands of Shkodra, possibly ShirokŰ, though they were forced to flee to their present location. The Shala seem to have been first mentioned in 1461 where they rebelled against the Spani family. Some also believed that the Shkreli had origin from around PejŰ in Kosovo, interestingly there is a mountain on the border between Montenegro and Kosovo called Hajla e Shkrelit. Though it's possible that the mountain was later named after them, they are recorded pretty early on around Shkodra.

Yeah, in the older nomenclatures I-M223 is I2a2, though in the new nomenclature I-M223 is now I2a1b1. I-M223>P78 was found in 2 Bronze Age samples from Bulgaria, one belonging to a culture that directly stemmed from the Yamnaya whilst the other came from a culture that seems to have been very much influenced by the Yamnaya. I-M223 was found in HG samples from Serbia, though they were mainly Z161+ if I recall correctly. This clade is primarily found in western European nations. Albanians are primarily P78>A427 when it comes to M223, hard to say when it arrived as none of the A427+ Albanians have done an NGS test. However, it's possible that it arrived later on with Germanic speakers or maybe earlier. There are some Serbs from Montenegro (and Kosovo I believe) who are P78+.

Dibran
02-18-2020, 08:33 PM
Nice find, I have already found a number of books that cover the area of MalŰsi e Madhe. By the way, there are also sites such as https://www.adrionltd.com/en/3-albanian-books and https://botimpex.com/ that sell Albanian books.

Thanks! didn't know about those.

Drenica
02-19-2020, 12:03 PM
Yeah, both the Mrnjavčići and Drekalovići branches of Kuši have oral tradition claiming descent from around Shkodra. The name Kuši is also first recorded in 1330 in the village/katun of Lješa Tuza (Llesh Tuzi?) which was an Albanian katun located somewhere around MalŰsi. The Drekalovići seem to have been primarily Albanian speaking up until the conversion of Lale Drekalov (Lal Ndreka) to Orthodoxy in the 16th or 17th Century. This conversion is what seems to have led to the mass conversion of the Albanian Kuši.

The Kuši tribal area is actually in eastern Montenegro on the border with Albanian tribes such as the Trieshi and Gruda, there are Kuši in Albania however most seem to have come originally from Montenegro. Interestingly, the Kuši of Kosovo so far seem to belong to a different branch of V13 (L241) than the Kuši of MalŰsi. Probably represent a different branch that moved east, or maybe joined the Kuši.

By the way, someone who actually knows what they're talking about needs to edit the Kuši wiki page, it's honestly unsightly right now. Very clear that a member of the Bosniak project edited it, they try and deny any connection to Albanians. For example, rather than saying "the names of Slavic and Albanian residents are recorded", they say "the names of Slavic and Illyrian residents are recorded". There were no such thing as Illyrians in 1485.

Yeah, I agree. Wikipedia is crap.

I heard there is a new paper coming out with samples from Eastern Serbia dating to Roman period, do you know anything about this ? I read some of those samples are I1-Z58, I know this is also found in one Kosovo Albanian who tested and few Labs. Seems to be Germanic in origin or from Gepids. Also found in few Serbs.


I was told those Bronze Age samples found in Croatia are of low quality by the people who found them. Most samples from the Balkans so far seem to be low quality.

That female Dalmatian, mother of the J2b2, on the original paper was clustering like a Bulgarian for example, she's the JAZ1 here;

https://i.imgur.com/op1UOGj.jpg


They also concluded in the original paper that she is close to Balkan people. Her J2b2 son should cluster similar.


Once added to gedmatch they suddenly shift towards Iberia / Italy, so I contacted one of the people from Reich's lab and they told me these samples are low quality and where she clusters on gedmatch even shouldn't be taken serious. And that we should wait for more quality samples.



Though where she clusters in that pic above makes more sense regarding modern Balkan genetics since we are more East.

J Man
02-19-2020, 03:47 PM
Yes, the story about refusing to convert to Catholicism is definitely made up. It is so a)because the only recorded Muslim families in Hoti was those of the bajraktars Junšaj brotherhood/vllazni > Lucgjonaj br. > Cun Mula. We have very detailed family trees for that event from the very beginning in the year 1696. b)as the conversion was political the bajraktars of Hoti still took part in mass and still held the feast for the patron saint of Hoti, John the Baptist. c) by means of a total religious tolerance based on the unity of the Fis (tribe) there was never any inter-religious tension within Hoti so the story is made up by some descendant if the original person was indeed from Hoti. That is why archival research is needed to verify claims and also more sampling is necessary in a organized manner. During summer many emigrants return to MalŰsia, so a campaign at that time *on the field* would yield years and years of work.

The (Ke)reši personal names (not surnames) showing influence of urban Latin culture makes a lot of sense I think. If this was an agricultural community (all evidence points to that, from their ancestral village etc.) they would be travelling to Shkodra, Drisht and as far as Ulqin and DurrŰs for quite a few generations to sell their products. Their idea of upward mobility would be to join the ranks of the urban dwellers, merchants etc. who were part of the "Adriatic world" of Venice and Ragusa. That is how you get names like "Ambroz" (Ambrosius) or "Sergj" (Sergius) and "Zorzi" (instead of Gjon) next to all the typical names like Gjergj/Gjin Reši.

That is interesting and it makes sense that the Reši tribe of the Shkoder area would travel to other larger towns and cities to sell their agricultural produce and such. Now I know that the town of Koplik is not far from them but the Reši tribal territory is classified as rural countryside correct?

Bruzmi
02-19-2020, 03:56 PM
Yeah, I agree. Wikipedia is crap.



Wikipedia can be what its editors make it to be. You can have good articles with good bibliography or the polar opposite of that. The fact that is indisputable though is that wikipedia is the most popular source of information for most people. It also influences how people treat the validity of different hypotheses. For example, on Hoti that I've completely rewritten there (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)) many Albanian websites spread the hypothesis that the Keqi stem came to Hoti in 1520, which is something that is debunked for over a century in bibliography.... but it's also the hypothesis that was written on wikipedia. So, because someone on wikipedia chose to promote that hypothesis, many people adopted it without considering anything else. That is why wikipedia should be treated seriously and effort should be put that its articles are written in the best way possible in terms of research, bibliography etc.

I think that the claim that Bekaj came to Triesh from Rijeka Ivan Beka, whether it's true or not, doesn't make them "less" local. It's only in the late 19th century that the region we today call MalŰsia e Madhe took its final shape. So, someone moving from Rijeka Ivan Beka to where Bekaj is today didn't necessarily think that he was moving to another area of different culture etc. There are many fis/tribes that today are forgotten because they were absorbed, assimiliated, went extinct or even were massacred.

One of those that we today do not remember is the Buk(Ű/u)miri (I rewrote that article today in its entirety to reflect modern bibliography):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukumiri They were absorbed by Piperi mostly, some formed small villages in Albania, a few were
assimilated by Bratonozici and one appears in Mrkojevici/Merkot. Once you read that please also check how that article was written in its original form 3 years ago. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bukumiri&oldid=710934969)

Bruzmi
02-19-2020, 04:22 PM
That is interesting and it makes sense that the Reši tribe of the Shkoder area would travel to other larger towns and cities to sell their agricultural produce and such. Now I know that the town of Koplik is not far from them but the Reši tribal territory is classified as rural countryside correct?

Yes, it is. Koplik at that time wasn't a town ... and it wasn't also a village of Catholic Albanians. Since the time of Tsar Dushan (~1330-40), it had become property of the Serbian Orthodox Church and mostly priests (pop) lived there. That changed after his death and they all left by the late 15th century, so it became non-religious property again.

J Man
02-19-2020, 04:31 PM
Yes, it is. Koplik at that time wasn't a town ... and it wasn't also a village of Catholic Albanians. Since the time of Tsar Dushan (~1330-40), it had become property of the Serbian Orthodox Church and mostly priests (pop) lived there. That changed after his death and they all left by the late 15th century, so it became non-religious property again.

Excellent thank you. So Reši tribal territory has always been classified as rural countryside from the early 16th century right up until the present day correct?

Bruzmi
02-19-2020, 05:12 PM
Yes, since that time onwards it retained a "fis" character.

Okay, some more stuff about Bukmiri. Apparently, over time they became Orthodox and even settled in Bihor-Plav-Gucia-Sandzak. There, they became Muslim in the 18th century and today there are quite a few brotherhoods in Petnjica and Berane that trace their origin to them. Some seem to have taken Y DNA testing. I think I've found the data, but as I've never been involved in that aspect of anthropological-genealogical research I think someone else should take a look and then maybe we can all together in this forum interpret them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukumiri The story of Buk(u/Ű)miri is getting really fascinating.

J Man
02-19-2020, 05:40 PM
Yes, since that time onwards it retained a "fis" character.

Okay, some more stuff about Bukmiri. Apparently, over time they became Orthodox and even settled in Bihor-Plav-Gucia-Sandzak. There, they became Muslim in the 18th century and today there are quite a few brotherhoods in Petnjica and Berane that trace their origin to them. Some seem to have taken Y DNA testing. I think I've found the data, but as I've never been involved in that aspect of anthropological-genealogical research I think someone else should take a look and then maybe we can all together in this forum interpret them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukumiri The story of Buk(u/Ű)miri is getting really fascinating.

Very interesting indeed. We need to have more Y-DNA samples from the Reši tribe of the Shkoder area to see if more of them are J2a-M67 like the two results from them so far. Of the tested samples so far one of them has the surname Reci from Qafe-Grade and the other one has the surname Hekaj from Reš. If they always had a "fis" character I wonder why Robert Elsie said in his book that they are of polyphyletic origin and not a "fis" as in descending in the male line from a common patrilineal ancestor? He could be wrong though I suppose .

Bruzmi
02-19-2020, 05:48 PM
He writes that they were polyphyletic because he assumed that they were of a mixed Shkreli-Toplana ancestry. He got that idea from Edith Durham's assumption in High Albania (1908). Of course, oral tradition always held that they came from a rural village in Shkodra that became a tribe...and guess what? The 1977 translation of the cadaster of Shkodra of 1416-17 and the translation of the sanjak of Shkodra defter in 1974 proved exactly that.

Robert Elsie of course never bothered with bibliography. He basically wrote a whole book (that has become extremely known because it's almost freely available on google books) based on a few texts he read by Durham and others of that era. No actual research was involved in the writing of Elsie's book. It's a genuinely bad book. Despite Elsie's passion about the highlands.

J Man
02-19-2020, 05:56 PM
He writes that they were polyphyletic because he assumed that they were of a mixed Shkreli-Toplana ancestry. He got that idea from Edith Durham's assumption in High Albania (1908). Of course, oral tradition always held that they came from a rural village in Shkodra that became a tribe...and guess what? The 1977 translation of the cadaster of Shkodra of 1416-17 and the translation of the sanjak of Shkodra defter in 1974 proved exactly that.

Robert Elsie of course never bothered with bibliography. He basically wrote a whole book (that has become extremely known because it's almost freely available on google books) based on a few texts he read by Durham and others of that era. No actual research was involved in the writing of Elsie's book. It's a genuinely bad book. Despite Elsie's passion about the highlands.

That makes a lot of sense actually. Your words, research and works here are extremely important and valuable I think. Keep up the good work! :)

By chance do you know which bajrak the Reši tribe of the Shkoder area belonged to?

Kelmendasi
02-19-2020, 10:46 PM
Yes, since that time onwards it retained a "fis" character.

Okay, some more stuff about Bukmiri. Apparently, over time they became Orthodox and even settled in Bihor-Plav-Gucia-Sandzak. There, they became Muslim in the 18th century and today there are quite a few brotherhoods in Petnjica and Berane that trace their origin to them. Some seem to have taken Y DNA testing. I think I've found the data, but as I've never been involved in that aspect of anthropological-genealogical research I think someone else should take a look and then maybe we can all together in this forum interpret them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukumiri The story of Buk(u/Ű)miri is getting really fascinating.
So far it seems that the Bukumiri were also mixed in terms of paternal origin. There is a family from the village of Trpezi who claim descent from the Bukumiri of Bratono×ići and are R-Z2705>Y82919, Y82919 is also shared with Muriqi branch of Kelmend (stories claim origin from SelcŰ or VukŰl) as well as a number of families from the area of Sanxhak who claim descent from Kelmend or Kuši. Another family from the region of Bijelo Polje turned out to be E-BY165837 like the Kuši, there was also another family that turned out to be V13+ if I recall correctly, they were E-BY14151 like the Vasojevići. Then there is also a brotherhood from around Ro×aja (Rozhaje) that is J2b-Y98609. There also seems to be a number of families who are Q-BZ3000, they too claim descent from the Bukumiri from Bratono×ići.

Interestingly, in the charter of 1411 a certain Nika Bukumjera (Bukumira) was recorded. He was the son of a certain Gjon, during the 14th Century a Gjon Bukumiri was recorded which is interesting.

Bruzmi
02-19-2020, 11:19 PM
I'll have to check when exactly Reši became a bajrak, but it surely was quite late. Trieshi became bajrak in 1775 and it definitely preceded it.

Yes, in the bibliography I have Trpezi (Petnjica) was indeed settled by Bukmiri, so there's a high probability that they are truly Bukmiri. The Bukmiri in Sanxhak I recorded are in : Berane, Petnjica, Bijelo Polje, Gucia/Gusinje. On yfull https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/ R-Z2705>Y82919 also shows up in Berane, MNE so that fits well with the historical records. I would interpret a bit differently the fact they they may show common origin with a branch of Kelmendi. To me that probably means that a part of Kelmendi and them have a common ancestor. So far, with the Trpezi sample and the two Berane ones, basically all possible Bukmiri fall within the same patrilineal ancestry....but more sampling is needed.

Also, something interesting from a crnogorsko book I'm reading about Bukmiri:

"Sve do početka XX vijeka, u Piperima, starom crnogorskom plemenu, jasno su se lučili Lužani (slovenski doseljenici) od doseljnih Vlaha iz Lutova i starośedilaca (Bukumira i Mataruga koji s Lužanima sačinjavu 80% stanovništva Pipera). "

"Until the early twentieth century, in Piperi, an old Montenegrin tribe, the Lužani (Slavic settlers) were clearly separated from the settled Vlachs from Lut and the natives (Bukumir and Mataruga, who make up 80% of the population of Piperi together with the Lužani)."

Kelmendasi
02-19-2020, 11:41 PM
I'll have to check when exactly Reši became a bajrak, but it surely was quite late. Trieshi became bajrak in 1775 and it definitely preceded it.

Yes, in the bibliography I have Trpezi (Petnjica) was indeed settled by Bukmiri, so there's a high probability that they are truly Bukmiri. The Bukmiri in Sanxhak I recorded are in : Berane, Petnjica, Bijelo Polje, Gucia/Gusinje. On yfull https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/ R-Z2705>Y82919 also shows up in Berane, MNE so that fits well with the historical records. I would interpret a bit differently the fact they they may show common origin with a branch of Kelmendi. To me that probably means that a part of Kelmendi and them have a common ancestor. So far, with the Trpezi sample and the two Berane ones, basically all possible Bukmiri fall within the same patrilineal ancestry....but more sampling is needed.

Also, something interesting from a crnogorsko book I'm reading about Bukmiri:

"Sve do početka XX vijeka, u Piperima, starom crnogorskom plemenu, jasno su se lučili Lužani (slovenski doseljenici) od doseljnih Vlaha iz Lutova i starośedilaca (Bukumira i Mataruga koji s Lužanima sačinjavu 80% stanovništva Pipera). "

"Until the early twentieth century, in Piperi, an old Montenegrin tribe, the Lužani (Slavic settlers) were clearly separated from the settled Vlachs from Lut and the natives (Bukumir and Mataruga, who make up 80% of the population of Piperi together with the Lužani)."
I am pretty sure one of the R-Y82919 samples from Yfull is actually from Saudi Arabia, however they put Montenegro (Berane) as their place of origin as they have recent paternal origin from there. The other sample is actually from Berane (specifically a village called Gornja Vrbica, which technically falls within Petnjica), they come from a family who claim descent from northern Albania. Most stories agree on SelcŰ, Kelmend, being the exact place of origin. They match a number of families from the region who stem from Kuši as well, but most importantly families from the Muriqi of Kelmend as well as a family from Nikš. So in their case, they are probably just the descendants of Kelmendi settlers.

Interestingly, the Lutovci branch of Piperi are actually R-Z2705>FT48939. Z2705 as a whole is best associated with Albanians and so it could be assumed that the paternal ancestor of this branch was in fact an Albanian, in fact the defter of 1485 did show that Albanian names, such as Progon, Leka, Marashi, Tanush etc, were still being used in some villages in Piperi (e.g Bushat, Rogam and Gojshiq). I am not too sure as to the Y-DNA of the Lužani however, a page from the Serbian DNA Project website says that they could be E-Z1057 which is interesting https://www.poreklo.rs/2017/11/19/rodovi-starobalkanskog-porekla-u-crnoj-gori/?lang=lat. I do know though that some families are I-CTS10228+, these families are certainly of Slavic origin and are possibly the Slavs mentioned in oral tradition.

J Man
02-20-2020, 12:18 AM
I'll have to check when exactly Reši became a bajrak, but it surely was quite late. Trieshi became bajrak in 1775 and it definitely preceded it.

Yes, in the bibliography I have Trpezi (Petnjica) was indeed settled by Bukmiri, so there's a high probability that they are truly Bukmiri. The Bukmiri in Sanxhak I recorded are in : Berane, Petnjica, Bijelo Polje, Gucia/Gusinje. On yfull https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/ R-Z2705>Y82919 also shows up in Berane, MNE so that fits well with the historical records. I would interpret a bit differently the fact they they may show common origin with a branch of Kelmendi. To me that probably means that a part of Kelmendi and them have a common ancestor. So far, with the Trpezi sample and the two Berane ones, basically all possible Bukmiri fall within the same patrilineal ancestry....but more sampling is needed.

Also, something interesting from a crnogorsko book I'm reading about Bukmiri:

"Sve do početka XX vijeka, u Piperima, starom crnogorskom plemenu, jasno su se lučili Lužani (slovenski doseljenici) od doseljnih Vlaha iz Lutova i starośedilaca (Bukumira i Mataruga koji s Lužanima sačinjavu 80% stanovništva Pipera). "

"Until the early twentieth century, in Piperi, an old Montenegrin tribe, the Lužani (Slavic settlers) were clearly separated from the settled Vlachs from Lut and the natives (Bukumir and Mataruga, who make up 80% of the population of Piperi together with the Lužani)."

Ok thank you this is something that I am interested in as well. Were there some tribes that never belonged to any bajrak?

Bruzmi
02-20-2020, 12:21 AM
A Saudi Bukmir from Berane? The journey of people around this world is truly incredible haha.

What you say about Lutovci is interesting. I think that if they were indeed Vlachs and they are close to Albanian stems, it would basically affirm the hypothesis that Vlach tribes in Montenegro and Herzegovina were only semi-romanized as they preserved many Albanian toponyms etc. like https://www.google.com/maps/place/Burmazi,+Bosnia+and+Herzegovina/

Yes, the Luzani were Slavs, but as they settled in the region some of those who were assimilated in their communities in the early stages were locals, so some Luzani are of non-Slavic parental ancestry, although most of them are indeed Slavic.

Kelmendasi
02-20-2020, 12:27 AM
A Saudi Bukmir from Berane? The journey of people around this world is truly incredible haha.

What you say about Lutovci is interesting. I think that if they were indeed Vlachs and they are close to Albanian stems, it would basically affirm the hypothesis that Vlach tribes in Montenegro and Herzegovina were only semi-romanized as they preserved many Albanian toponyms etc. like https://www.google.com/maps/place/Burmazi,+Bosnia+and+Herzegovina/

Yes, the Luzani were Slavs, but as they settled in the region some of those who were assimilated in their communities in the early stages were locals, so some Luzani are of non-Slavic parental ancestry, although most of them are indeed Slavic.
I don't think that he is necessarily a descendant of the Bukumiri, he could just as easily be the descendant of one of the settlers from Kelmend. I'm not too sure when his family moved to Saudi Arabia, however it is surprising that you would find Balkanites around that area. Funnily enough there are some R-FGC40202>FGC40206 samples from Saudi Arabia who are certainly descended from the Balkan, and most probably Albanians https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC40202/.

Bruzmi
02-20-2020, 12:34 AM
In MalŰsia as far as I know most were in the bajrak system. But we have to understand that the bajrak system was imposed by the Ottomans as a way to assimilate leaders with privileges and some sort of autonomy, so they don't rebel. It was also a way for the Ottomans to divide the fis by appointing a leader, instead of letting the fis council decide freely by whom it wants be led in times of war. On the other hand, this semi-autonomy allowed for a very limited "free space" where there was none. So, my point is that the fis/tribes didn't want the bajrak system. Their true leaders weren't chosen by virtue of being bajraktars, but by actual virtue. In fact, the legendary Ded Gjo Luli was not the bajraktar of Hoti and yet he was the general leader and most respected person in all of MalŰsia, while the actual bajraktar of Hoti and first bajraktar of all tribes was a very honorable fighter, Mul Delia whom the Ottomans tried to persuade to abandon Ded Gjo Luli by pointing out that "he should be the leader because he is the bajraktar". He responded to that by saying that "the Ottoman title's worth is equal to garbage". To conclude: the people of Reši were/are honorable and good people, who in a very harsh environment maintained their culture, were active in all the struggles of the land and its people etc. Whether the Ottomans gave them one of their trinkets-titles in 1800> doesn't really matter :D (but I'll check it nonetheless because I'm curious too :P )

Bruzmi
02-20-2020, 12:49 AM
It may sound like a surprise (to me it sounded at first) but many Albanians settled in the Middle East in the Ottoman times ( for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_Syria ) and others went there after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. This is a very old story. I was doing research on Hoti's role in the defense of Ulqin in 1696, the event which raised their status. So, after the battle the Ottomans proposed that if they convert to Islam, they'll be made a bajrak. Hoti realizing that the title doesn't mean anything by itself put forward a list of demands. Guess what was one of the demands? That their youth don't serve military service in places like Yemen!!

J Man
02-20-2020, 12:56 AM
In MalŰsia as far as I know most were in the bajrak system. But we have to understand that the bajrak system was imposed by the Ottomans as a way to assimilate leaders with privileges and some sort of autonomy, so they don't rebel. It was also a way for the Ottomans to divide the fis by appointing a leader, instead of letting the fis council decide freely by whom it wants be led in times of war. On the other hand, this semi-autonomy allowed for a very limited "free space" where there was none. So, my point is that the fis/tribes didn't want the bajrak system. Their true leaders weren't chosen by virtue of being bajraktars, but by actual virtue. In fact, the legendary Ded Gjo Luli was not the bajraktar of Hoti and yet he was the general leader and most respected person in all of MalŰsia, while the actual bajraktar of Hoti and first bajraktar of all tribes was a very honorable fighter, Mul Delia whom the Ottomans tried to persuade to abandon Ded Gjo Luli by pointing out that "he should be the leader because he is the bajraktar". He responded to that by saying that "the Ottoman title's worth is equal to garbage". To conclude: the people of Reši were/are honorable and good people, who in a very harsh environment maintained their culture, were active in all the struggles of the land and its people etc. Whether the Ottomans gave them one of their trinkets-titles in 1800> doesn't really matter :D (but I'll check it nonetheless because I'm curious too :P )

Fascinating! Sorry for all of the questions...I am just really interested in all of this and there is barely anything in English online about the Reši tribe. So then for many centuries the Reši tribe of the Shkoder area belonged to no bajrak correct?

Kelmendasi
02-20-2020, 01:01 AM
It may sound like a surprise (to me it sounded at first) but many Albanians settled in the Middle East in the Ottoman times ( for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_Syria ) and others went there after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. This is a very old story. I was doing research on Hoti's role in the defense of Ulqin in 1696, the event which raised their status. So, after the battle the Ottomans proposed that if they convert to Islam, they'll be made a bajrak. Hoti realizing that the title doesn't mean anything by itself put forward a list of demands. Guess what was one of the demands? That their youth don't serve military service in places like Yemen!!
Yeah, there is actually a user on this forum from Lebanon who is of partial Albanian descent. His ancestors moved from Albania during the Ottoman period. There was even a guy from Syria with Albanian origin who tested with the project, he turned out to be R-L1029. Have also come across a sample from Sudan (around the border with Egypt) that was R-Z29764, I also believe he is of Albanian descent. Possibly a descendant of one of the Albanian soldiers/mercenaries under Muhammad Ali of Egypt.

Bruzmi
02-20-2020, 01:08 AM
Yep, no bajrak at all for at least 250+ years. Well, why don't you write something on wikipedia? There is some bibliography online, I could send you some more stuff in .pdf format too. Then, you can write this article for yourself and help others, who are looking for the same information.

I'm almost done with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrkojevi%C4%87i Is there any sample from that area? It would be interesting. In ''pravi Mrkojevici'' of 1485 there is a Nuliš, son of Bukmir.

J Man
02-20-2020, 01:12 AM
Yep, no bajrak at all for at least 250+ years. Well, why don't you write something on wikipedia? There is some bibliography online, I could send you some more stuff in .pdf format too. Then, you can write this article for yourself and help others, who are looking for the same information.

I'm almost done with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrkojevi%C4%87i Is there any sample from that area? It would be interesting. In ''pravi Mrkojevici'' of 1485 there is a Nuliš, son of Bukmir.

Sure that would be awesome! If you send me the material I will write up a Wikipedia entry for Reši sure. Want me to PM my email to you on here?

Keqa
02-20-2020, 01:38 AM
A Saudi Bukmir from Berane? The journey of people around this world is truly incredible haha.

What you say about Lutovci is interesting. I think that if they were indeed Vlachs and they are close to Albanian stems, it would basically affirm the hypothesis that Vlach tribes in Montenegro and Herzegovina were only semi-romanized as they preserved many Albanian toponyms etc. like https://www.google.com/maps/place/Burmazi,+Bosnia+and+Herzegovina/

Yes, the Luzani were Slavs, but as they settled in the region some of those who were assimilated in their communities in the early stages were locals, so some Luzani are of non-Slavic parental ancestry, although most of them are indeed Slavic.

Lutovci were not Vlahs. They were Albanian.

Drenica
02-20-2020, 10:06 AM
Wikipedia can be what its editors make it to be. You can have good articles with good bibliography or the polar opposite of that. The fact that is indisputable though is that wikipedia is the most popular source of information for most people. It also influences how people treat the validity of different hypotheses. For example, on Hoti that I've completely rewritten there (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)) many Albanian websites spread the hypothesis that the Keqi stem came to Hoti in 1520, which is something that is debunked for over a century in bibliography.... but it's also the hypothesis that was written on wikipedia. So, because someone on wikipedia chose to promote that hypothesis, many people adopted it without considering anything else. That is why wikipedia should be treated seriously and effort should be put that its articles are written in the best way possible in terms of research, bibliography etc.

I think that the claim that Bekaj came to Triesh from Rijeka Ivan Beka, whether it's true or not, doesn't make them "less" local. It's only in the late 19th century that the region we today call MalŰsia e Madhe took its final shape. So, someone moving from Rijeka Ivan Beka to where Bekaj is today didn't necessarily think that he was moving to another area of different culture etc. There are many fis/tribes that today are forgotten because they were absorbed, assimiliated, went extinct or even were massacred.

One of those that we today do not remember is the Buk(Ű/u)miri (I rewrote that article today in its entirety to reflect modern bibliography):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukumiri They were absorbed by Piperi mostly, some formed small villages in Albania, a few were
assimilated by Bratonozici and one appears in Mrkojevici/Merkot. Once you read that please also check how that article was written in its original form 3 years ago. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bukumiri&oldid=710934969)

The problem with Wikipedia though is that people can abuse it and post conflicting sources or sources that contradict each other or that suits peoples agenda. Albanian pages regarding Kosovo and Albanian history are filled with Serbian sources for example from Serbian books.

I've seen people remove certain sources only to add their own source. Wikipedia is essentially just a mash of different sources all added together, neither more credible than the other unless proven otherwise therefore it is wrong to remove a certain source only to add another one as more credible.

Dibran
02-20-2020, 01:08 PM
Yeah, there is actually a user on this forum from Lebanon who is of partial Albanian descent. His ancestors moved from Albania during the Ottoman period. There was even a guy from Syria with Albanian origin who tested with the project, he turned out to be R-L1029. Have also come across a sample from Sudan (around the border with Egypt) that was R-Z29764, I also believe he is of Albanian descent. Possibly a descendant of one of the Albanian soldiers/mercenaries under Muhammad Ali of Egypt.

True. I found him on facebook. His surname gave it away. Arnaoud or Arnaout. I forget which users, but Flor checked his STRs I think(or one of the admins did). He appears to match/cluster with one or 2 Albanian L1029 in the project.

Bruzmi
02-20-2020, 01:08 PM
Lutovci were not Vlahs. They were Albanian.

If so, I'd be more than willing to start a page on wikipedia about them ( I focus on research about Albanian communities in present-day Montenegro), if there is competent bibliography or archival records that confirm at least part of this hypothesis. When I was writing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukumiri it was hard to find good bibliography because it was scattered online and offline, but what I've come to realize is that if "X group was once of Y culture/ethnicity" then it shows up somewhere. For Bukmiri it even shows up in Bosniak songs in Bihor where the "Albanian Orthodox brotherhood (vllazni/bratstvo) of Bukumiri" is mentioned. So, if Lutovo and its people the Lutovci were once Albanians it should show up somewhere in historical record.

Dibran
02-20-2020, 01:11 PM
The problem with Wikipedia though is that people can abuse it and post conflicting sources or sources that contradict each other or that suits peoples agenda. Albanian pages regarding Kosovo and Albanian history are filled with Serbian sources for example from Serbian books.

I've seen people remove certain sources only to add their own source. Wikipedia is essentially just a mash of different sources all added together, neither more credible than the other unless proven otherwise therefore it is wrong to remove a certain source only to add another one as more credible.

Yup. Automatic failing grade in any educational institute if Wikipedia was used. At least when I went to school.

Bruzmi
02-20-2020, 02:30 PM
Yup. Automatic failing grade in any educational institute if Wikipedia was used. At least when I went to school.

Indeed, but that is besides the point. Automatic failing grade would also be to make conclusions about ancestry based on limited Y DNA sampling. No journal would accept such a paper, as it wouldn't accept us to use wikipedia as a source.

The important issue here is that wikipedia is the main source people use to inform themselves. The vast majority of people usually will not inform themselves by reading a great paper that somebody wrote for a journal that you can't access unless you have institutional access. All Albanian historical/ancestry websites one way or another use wikipedia as a their main source, they just ommit the parts they don't like. But the parts they think that are good, are also written by the same people who wrote the stuff they don't like (so that should make us think for example why someone yeaaaars ago pushed the discredited theory that Hoti came in 1520 in their home region, a theory still used by almost all Albanian websites! )

And there is reverse effect too in academia: Because bibliography is popularized by its use on wikipedia, someone who is writing a paper for his undergrad studies will use mostly bibliography he found on wikipedia. That makes that bibliography popular and then guess what happens? Whether it's good or bad historical research, it gains credibility by virtue of its use in academia and becomes mainstream . So good research vanishes and isn't used because it's not on wikipedia. In this very same thread we're discussing right now, since 2015 you've been having this discussion and many have been talking about Robert Elsie's book on Albanian tribes. This is a very bad book that nobody in academia uses! And yet here, you are using it. Why is that? There's only one answer: Because editors on wikipedia popularized it. The best source for Albanian tribes by the way is Selami Pulaha, Kontribut pŰr studimin e ngulitjes sŰ katuneve dhe krijimin e fiseve nŰ Shqiperine e veriut shekujt XV-XVI' , Injac Zamputi and Gjovalin Shkurtaj. You're not discussing about their material because until very recently nobody used them on wikipedia. Thus, we should recognize wikipedia's influence and then act accordingly based on good bibliography that we should try to popularize also on wikipedia.

Another aspect is that because the name of a town becomes "mainstream" by use on wikipedia, on google maps toponyms change regularly based on wikipedia! That has the effect that the tourism industry then uses those same toponyms whether the people who live there use it or not.

I hope that answers why people should engage themselves more with media like wikipedia.

Keqa
02-20-2020, 03:09 PM
If so, I'd be more than willing to start a page on wikipedia about them ( I focus on research about Albanian communities in present-day Montenegro), if there is competent bibliography or archival records that confirm at least part of this hypothesis. When I was writing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukumiri it was hard to find good bibliography because it was scattered online and offline, but what I've come to realize is that if "X group was once of Y culture/ethnicity" then it shows up somewhere. For Bukmiri it even shows up in Bosniak songs in Bihor where the "Albanian Orthodox brotherhood (vllazni/bratstvo) of Bukumiri" is mentioned. So, if Lutovo and its people the Lutovci were once Albanians it should show up somewhere in historical record.

Only indirectly, they’re said to have gone there from North Albania. They first settled Lutovo and from there they expanded. I will look at the literature I have read again to see if I find anything because it has been a while..

However, genetically speaking it looks like they hail from Kelmend. They share a 550ybp TMRCA with a Muriqi branch from Sanxhak (Marovac). He is the one with the Serbian flag, the other two are from Piper: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT48939/

Same goes for Mugosha. They hail from Kastrat and have tested as V13-PH2180

Kelmendasi
02-20-2020, 03:51 PM
If so, I'd be more than willing to start a page on wikipedia about them ( I focus on research about Albanian communities in present-day Montenegro), if there is competent bibliography or archival records that confirm at least part of this hypothesis. When I was writing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukumiri it was hard to find good bibliography because it was scattered online and offline, but what I've come to realize is that if "X group was once of Y culture/ethnicity" then it shows up somewhere. For Bukmiri it even shows up in Bosniak songs in Bihor where the "Albanian Orthodox brotherhood (vllazni/bratstvo) of Bukumiri" is mentioned. So, if Lutovo and its people the Lutovci were once Albanians it should show up somewhere in historical record.
Y-DNA does indeed suggest that the majority of Piperi is descended from a single Albanian male, we can tell this is the case because current data suggests that R-Z2705+ is best linked with the Albanians and their migrations. It's hard to tell if later on the Albanian element became Latin speaking, but we can tell for sure that there was an Albanian presence in the region. This is supported by toponyms and the names recorded in some villages.

As for oral traditions, the Piperi believe that they arrived from the region of Pirot in eastern Serbia. Their ancestor was supposedly named Gojak, and he had a son named Nikola. This Nikola had five sons; Pipo (founder of Piperi), Vaso (founder of Vasojevići), Ozro (founder of Ozrinići), Kraso (founder of Krasniqi), and Oto (founder of Hoti). This story has parallels with the story told in Hot and Krasniq (in regards to tribal relations), however it doesn't make much sense if you consider Y-DNA testing and the historical records.

J Man
02-20-2020, 03:51 PM
Yep, no bajrak at all for at least 250+ years. Well, why don't you write something on wikipedia? There is some bibliography online, I could send you some more stuff in .pdf format too. Then, you can write this article for yourself and help others, who are looking for the same information.

I'm almost done with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrkojevi%C4%87i Is there any sample from that area? It would be interesting. In ''pravi Mrkojevici'' of 1485 there is a Nuliš, son of Bukmir.

I just sent you a PM.

Bruzmi
02-20-2020, 04:20 PM
What is the n of the sample(s)? If we were to write a paper that would get published in a B+ reliability journal, we would need n>50 to make a claim. There are journals that require a Sample Size of Population of n=100. I'm saying all that, not to discourage Y DNA research but to say that as we should be more rigorous and demanding of historical research, the same should be done with ancestry research

If Piperi, like many others descend from R-Z2705, doesn't really tell us that much. It's too broad. Go back enough and with enough endogamy in a region, you'll find that many people have the same ancestor +2000ybp, but they don't really have the same ancestor in historical, social context.

In actual, archival records there are at least three different Albanian fis/tribes that were part of the formation of Piperi: Buk(u)miri, Bushati, and Dirnovica . We know a lot about the first two tribes, but we know next to nothing about Dirnovica except that they had mostly Albanian names in 1485, were probably Orthodox (so some Orthodox Slavic names appear) and were on the path of becoming fully integrated as most Albanian names are those of fathers, and the Slavic names mostly appear as those of sons. So we have a NikŰ who has three sons: Vuk (actually the leader of the tribe), Vukasin and Vukoslav. Dirnovica wasn't their real name. As the defter explains, they got it because they lived for some time in a location named Dirnovica in Luskozupa (a Luzani/Slavic settlement).

Lutovo was also part of the formation of Piperi. The story about Pirot is related to Lutovo that supposedly came from Pirot and the Hoti, Krasniqi etc. brothers story is a different one. Those two eventually got mixed up together. And of course, there's the settlement of Istrahalic with 61 households (Bukumiri was the second biggest in 1497 with 43), which has mixed names of Albanian and Slavic/Luzani origin, which themselves had incorporated older tribes in their formation.

Some families came later: Hotovic/Otovic are from Hoti, other families are from Kuci and some from Bratonozici.

Kelmendasi
02-20-2020, 04:52 PM
What is the n of the sample(s)? If we were to write a paper that would get published in a B+ reliability journal, we would need n>50 to make a claim. There are journals that require a Sample Size of Population of n=100. I'm saying all that, not to discourage Y DNA research but to say that as we should be more rigorous and demanding of historical research, the same should be done with ancestry research

If Piperi, like many others descend from R-Z2705, doesn't really tell us that much. It's too broad. Go back enough and with enough endogamy in a region, you'll find that many people have the same ancestor +2000ybp, but they don't really have the same ancestor in historical, social context.

In actual, archival records there are at least three different Albanian fis/tribes that were part of the formation of Piperi: Buk(u)miri, Bushati, and Dirnovica . We know a lot about the first two tribes, but we know next to nothing about Dirnovica except that they had mostly Albanian names in 1485, were probably Orthodox (so some Orthodox Slavic names appear) and were on the path of becoming fully integrated as most Albanian names are those of fathers, and the Slavic names mostly appear as those of sons. So we have a NikŰ who has three sons: Vuk (actually the leader of the tribe), Vukasin and Vukoslav. Dirnovica wasn't their real name. As the defter explains, they got it because they lived for some time in a location named Dirnovica in Luskozupa (a Luzani/Slavic settlement).

Lutovo was also part of the formation of Piperi. The story about Pirot is related to Lutovo that supposedly came from Pirot and the Hoti, Krasniqi etc. brothers story is a different one. Those two eventually got mixed up together. And of course, there's the settlement of Istrahalic with 61 households (Bukumiri was the second biggest in 1497 with 43), which has mixed names of Albanian and Slavic/Luzani origin, which themselves had incorporated older tribes in their formation.

Some families came later: Hotovic/Otovic are from Hoti, other families are from Kuci and some from Bratonozici.
Not too sure as to how many Piperi have been tested, however they were tested via the Serbian project which has tested far more individuals than the Albanian project. They have a pretty large database. Also, limited Y-DNA data is still better and more informative than no Y-DNA data at all. Should also take into account that many of these individuals come from different villages and regions, so them all sharing the same clusters is pretty telling. Though I do think that more samples are needed.

Well, every Z2705+ carrier shares a common ancestor 1,450 years ago according to Yfull (could go up to ~2,000 from what I've heard) so we know that they all stem from the same male who lived during the early Medieval. Certain subclades have TMRCAs of only 500ybp which narrows things down even further. Actually, most tribes actually belong to separate haplogroups and don't share common ancestors with each other when it comes to paternal descent.

Sure, there are difference in the stories of Hoti and Krasniqi, I was just pointing out parallels.

J Man
02-20-2020, 05:08 PM
For what it's worth the Luzani are mentioned as being the first Slavic origin migrants in the area of Montenegro that is known as Pješivci. Some people seem to think that the Pješivci tribe originated as a result of the Luzani mixing with the Pre-Slavic population of that area. Quite a few men from the Pješivci tribe have had their Y-DNA tested and they are almost all J2a-M92.

Keqa
02-20-2020, 05:18 PM
I see 10 Piperi samples tested as such on Poreklo: Bashovic, Brkovic, Vukovic, Dragicevic, Krkeljic, Ljumovic, Nenadic, Stanic, Filipovic and Shcekic.

Most have probably been classified as such based on their STRs, but at least two have also upgraded to BigY 700 (the two samples on yfull).

To simplify my message, they share a common male ancestor with Muriqi (Marovac) under FT48939 that only lived 550 years ago.

Dibran
02-22-2020, 10:19 PM
Ordered another book with defters.

"Regjistri I Sanxhakut Te Arvanidit I Vitit 1431"


https://sq.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxhaku_i_Arb%C3%ABrit

Kelmendasi
02-22-2020, 10:26 PM
Ordered another book with defters.

"Regjistri I Sanxhakut Te Arvanidit I Vitit 1431"


https://sq.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxhaku_i_Arb%C3%ABrit
I already have this book. Honestly, I wouldn't recommend it if you're looking to see what the names/anthroponyms of the locals were. The defter doesn't have the recorded names of the locals but rather the names of the landowners that were given land in Central and Southern Albania. It does give the toponyms which could be of use.

Dibran
02-22-2020, 11:26 PM
I already have this book. Honestly, I wouldn't recommend it if you're looking to see what the names/anthroponyms of the locals were. The defter doesn't have the recorded names of the locals but rather the names of the landowners that were given land in Central and Southern Albania. It does give the toponyms which could be of use.

I'm just curious to see what may be in there.