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Dibran
02-22-2020, 11:27 PM
I already have this book. Honestly, I wouldn't recommend it if you're looking to see what the names/anthroponyms of the locals were. The defter doesn't have the recorded names of the locals but rather the names of the landowners that were given land in Central and Southern Albania. It does give the toponyms which could be of use.

Oh btw check your inbox. Messaging you.

Bruzmi
02-26-2020, 05:59 PM
Hey again! It's been about a week since we last talked.

So, I've been doing a bit of research on old Albanian tribes of Herzegovina. So far, this is what I've written: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmazi

Also, I've been collecting archival data about the spread of Hoti in Herzegovina, Sandzak, and south-eastern Bosnia in the 18th century. Here (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hoti_%28tribe%29&type=revision&diff=942757657&oldid=941757587)'s everything new I've added to the Hoti article.

About Durham's "they came from Bosnia note". There's something that sort of unifies her story with the archival data that place Hoti's origin in Plav at least in 1330. Albanian pastoral communities from the Plav area used to move their herds in southern Bosnia during the winter months and then move back in the spring and summer months to their natural grazing lands. That could given another reasonable explanation to a story that stands opposite to the historical records.

[I posted this on the wrong thread originally (the one about Reēi)]

Dibran, it has some useful stuff, the defter of 1432 and if you have the time/tools, it would be worth uploading parts of it. I think that the defter with the oldest, complete toponymic information about southern Albania is the defter of the sanjak of Delvina in 1582-1583. I don't have that unfortunately.

J Man
02-26-2020, 06:04 PM
Hey again! It's been about a week since we last talked.

So, I've been doing a bit of research on old Albanian tribes of Herzegovina. So far, this is what I've written: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmazi

Also, I've been collecting archival data about the spread of Hoti in Herzegovina, Sandzak, and south-eastern Bosnia in the 18th century. Here (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hoti_%28tribe%29&type=revision&diff=942757657&oldid=941757587)'s everything new I've added to the Hoti article.

About Durham's "they came from Bosnia note". There's something that sort of unifies her story with the archival data that place Hoti's origin in Plav at least in 1330. Albanian pastoral communities from the Plav area used to move their herds in southern Bosnia during the winter months and then move back in the spring and summer months to their natural grazing lands. That could given another reasonable explanation to a story that stands opposite to the historical records.

[I posted this on the wrong thread originally (the one about Reēi)]

Dibran, it has some useful stuff, the defter of 1432 and if you have the time/tools, it would be worth uploading parts of it. I think that the defter with the oldest, complete toponymic information about southern Albania is the defter of the sanjak of Delvina in 1582-1583. I don't have that unfortunately.

Nice to see you back. :thumb:

J Man
02-26-2020, 06:33 PM
Hey again! It's been about a week since we last talked.

So, I've been doing a bit of research on old Albanian tribes of Herzegovina. So far, this is what I've written: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmazi

Also, I've been collecting archival data about the spread of Hoti in Herzegovina, Sandzak, and south-eastern Bosnia in the 18th century. Here (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hoti_%28tribe%29&type=revision&diff=942757657&oldid=941757587)'s everything new I've added to the Hoti article.

About Durham's "they came from Bosnia note". There's something that sort of unifies her story with the archival data that place Hoti's origin in Plav at least in 1330. Albanian pastoral communities from the Plav area used to move their herds in southern Bosnia during the winter months and then move back in the spring and summer months to their natural grazing lands. That could given another reasonable explanation to a story that stands opposite to the historical records.

[I posted this on the wrong thread originally (the one about Reēi)]

Dibran, it has some useful stuff, the defter of 1432 and if you have the time/tools, it would be worth uploading parts of it. I think that the defter with the oldest, complete toponymic information about southern Albania is the defter of the sanjak of Delvina in 1582-1583. I don't have that unfortunately.

You very likely saw this post on the Reēi thread but I am curious as to what you think about this article about Reē?

Another interesting article about Reēi of the Shkoder area. He seems to mention a population change around the year 1582 along with Islamization. Maybe that was when the ancestors of the current population of Reē arrived?

https://zanimalsise.com/kisha-e-reci...ne-ne-harrese/

Kelmendasi
02-26-2020, 07:49 PM
Hey again! It's been about a week since we last talked.

So, I've been doing a bit of research on old Albanian tribes of Herzegovina. So far, this is what I've written: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmazi

Also, I've been collecting archival data about the spread of Hoti in Herzegovina, Sandzak, and south-eastern Bosnia in the 18th century. Here (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hoti_%28tribe%29&type=revision&diff=942757657&oldid=941757587)'s everything new I've added to the Hoti article.

About Durham's "they came from Bosnia note". There's something that sort of unifies her story with the archival data that place Hoti's origin in Plav at least in 1330. Albanian pastoral communities from the Plav area used to move their herds in southern Bosnia during the winter months and then move back in the spring and summer months to their natural grazing lands. That could given another reasonable explanation to a story that stands opposite to the historical records.

[I posted this on the wrong thread originally (the one about Reēi)]

Dibran, it has some useful stuff, the defter of 1432 and if you have the time/tools, it would be worth uploading parts of it. I think that the defter with the oldest, complete toponymic information about southern Albania is the defter of the sanjak of Delvina in 1582-1583. I don't have that unfortunately.
There seems to have been a presence of Albanians in the area of Herzegovina and Dalmatia since the Medieval. In 1284 Albanian speakers were mentioned around the area of Dubrovnik through the testimony of a certain Matthew who witnessed a crime; "I heard a voice shouting on the mountainside in the Albanian language" (Audivi unam vocem, clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca). There were also a number of Albanian noble families (e.g the Gjini, Bruti, Doda etc) who had branches that lived in the Republic of Ragusa and Venetian holdings in Dalmatia.

Do you know where the Burmazi originally came from? If I had to guess I'd say that they came from around Shkodra, but that's only a guess.

I came across a twitter post of the recorded names of inhabitants of the village of Frashėr during 1504 and 1593. Most of the names seem to have been Albanian. There are a number of names, such as Deda and Bardhi, that to me seem like more typical Catholic Northern Albanian names. I know that there was migration of Gheg Albanians from the areas of Dukagjin and Mirdita during the Medieval and Ottoman period, though this mainly affected the region of Labėria as far as I know. Based on first names, seems like most were Orthodox Christians.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBImh_WXsAAOe3Q?format=png&name=small

https://twitter.com/albanianstats/status/1158030424523902977/photo/1.

Bruzmi
02-27-2020, 11:31 AM
There seems to have been a presence of Albanians in the area of Herzegovina and Dalmatia since the Medieval. In 1284 Albanian speakers were mentioned around the area of Dubrovnik through the testimony of a certain Matthew who witnessed a crime; "I heard a voice shouting on the mountainside in the Albanian language" (Audivi unam vocem, clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca). There were also a number of Albanian noble families (e.g the Gjini, Bruti, Doda etc) who had branches that lived in the Republic of Ragusa and Venetian holdings in Dalmatia.

Do you know where the Burmazi originally came from? If I had to guess I'd say that they came from around Shkodra, but that's only a guess.

I came across a twitter post of the recorded names of inhabitants of the village of Frashėr during 1504 and 1593. Most of the names seem to have been Albanian. There are a number of names, such as Deda and Bardhi, that to me seem like more typical Catholic Northern Albanian names. I know that there was migration of Gheg Albanians from the areas of Dukagjin and Mirdita during the Medieval and Ottoman period, though this mainly affected the region of Labėria as far as I know. Based on first names, seems like most were Orthodox Christians.


In November 2019 a paper by Edmond Malaj was published on the Ragusan families of Albanian origin (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337399439_Ne_gjurme_te_familjeve_fisnike_raguzane_ me_origjine_nga_trojet_shqiptare_On_the_trails_of_ the_noble_Ragusan_families_of_Albanian_origin). So far, it's the most complete, research paper that has been written.

We don't know in terms of actual archival resources, but I would say that Burmazi didn't get to Stolac from somewhere south of central-to-northern modern Montenegro. They are recorded in the archives of Kotor and Ragusa in 1300 as already living in the area for some generations and aren't described as foreign to the region.

Bardhi is a word that means white, I don't think that it has a specific relation to the north or the south. Albanians sat in the middle between Catholic and Orthodox influence so even in the 17th century many Christian names were pretty much the same among northern Catholic and southern Orthodox Albanians. Also interesting: Gjin may not be a Christian name at all!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjin

Kelmendasi
02-27-2020, 12:36 PM
In November 2019 a paper by Edmond Malaj was published on the Ragusan families of Albanian origin (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337399439_Ne_gjurme_te_familjeve_fisnike_raguzane_ me_origjine_nga_trojet_shqiptare_On_the_trails_of_ the_noble_Ragusan_families_of_Albanian_origin). So far, it's the most complete, research paper that has been written.

We don't know in terms of actual archival resources, but I would say that Burmazi didn't get to Stolac from somewhere south of central-to-northern modern Montenegro. They are recorded in the archives of Kotor and Ragusa in 1300 as already living in the area for some generations and aren't described as foreign to the region.

Bardhi is a word that means white, I don't think that it has a specific relation to the north or the south. Albanians sat in the middle between Catholic and Orthodox influence so even in the 17th century many Christian names were pretty much the same among northern Catholic and southern Orthodox Albanians. Also interesting: Gjin may not be a Christian name at all!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjin
Yeah Malaj has published a number of interesting works on Albanian noble families, I read his paper on the families of Drisht. He mentioned the Mazareku family who quite possibly were related to the Kastrioti, as the Kastrioti did use Mazarek/Mazareku as a second name (Konstandin Kastrioti, Skanderbeg's uncle, for example).

True, Bardhi does mean white or "the white one", but to me it always seemed to be more common in the north than the south. This could just be because we have more records from north Albania though, and so it just seems more common in the north. I'm not too sure about the proposed connection between Gjin and Gentius, I say this because it doesn't seem likely that Gentius would develop into Gjin in Albanian. The name Gentius comes from the PIE root *ǵenh₁-ti (kin or race) and so does the Albanian word dhen/dhźnd (flock or herd), this in turn comes from Proto-Albanian dzenti. And so it could be assumed that PIE ǵ became dz in Proto-Albanian, so Gentius should have developed into Dzentius.

Dibran
02-27-2020, 01:11 PM
...............

I have a Mazreku match on 23andme that is R-CTS9219.

Johane Derite
02-27-2020, 02:59 PM
Gjin could be from Gens/Gentius if it wasnt inherited from IE but from the name in its form as Gentius in the Roman Era. If it entered the Alb language as Gentius around this time (from italo/celtic influence) then it wouldnt become dhent as that is a more ancient sound law that would have expired. Dhent would only represent the inherited form.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gjin

Kelmendasi
02-27-2020, 03:50 PM
Gjin could be from Gens/Gentius if it wasnt inherited from IE but from the name in its form as Gentius in the Roman Era. If it entered the Alb language as Gentius around this time (from italo/celtic influence) then it wouldnt become dhent as that is a more ancient sound law that would have expired. Dhent would only represent the inherited form.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gjin
That would make sense. Though isn't it still possible that the name is a variant of the name John, just like Gjon? I read that the Catholic clergy considered Shėn Gjin and Shėn Gjon as the same person, however the Orthodox Albanians from regions of Central Albania considered them to be different people.

Something that could support a connection between the name Gjin and Gentius could be the fact that in Albanian there is the word gjini. This word is sometimes used to refer to a group of people that share common ancestry, and so could be a derivative of the Latin gens (people or tribe). So I guess a connection between Gjin and gens is possible.

Keqa
02-27-2020, 08:24 PM
Gjin I think is the diminutive form of Jean.


As for Burmazi, a fella with the last name ‘Burmazovic’ from the Serbian project seems to have tested as R-A11460 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-A11460/)

Sorcelow
02-29-2020, 09:55 PM
I already have this book. Honestly, I wouldn't recommend it if you're looking to see what the names/anthroponyms of the locals were. The defter doesn't have the recorded names of the locals but rather the names of the landowners that were given land in Central and Southern Albania. It does give the toponyms which could be of use.


Do you mind taking some pictures of the book? i would like to see what it contains.

Kelmendasi
03-01-2020, 06:14 PM
Do you mind taking some pictures of the book? i would like to see what it contains.
Sure, what region/area are you interested in in particular?

J Man
03-01-2020, 06:56 PM
Sure, what region/area are you interested in in particular?

Is there anything in that book about the Reēi tribe of the Shkoder area?

Kelmendasi
03-01-2020, 07:02 PM
Is there anything in that book about the Reēi tribe of the Shkoder area?
No, the book only covers the former Sanjak of Albania (sancak-i Arvanid in Turkish) of 1431. This included regions of north-central, central and southern Albania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjak_of_Albania. The more northern areas of Albania weren't under direct Ottoman administration at this point.

Exercitus
03-02-2020, 08:55 PM
Well names like Gjin, Gjon, Deda, Leka, Tanush, Progon, Gjika, Doda, Muzak, Manesh etc etc are simply pan-albanian regardless of being Tosk or Gheg, catholic or orthodox, as a example, take a look and compare the typical 'Gheg catholic' names of Arbanasi\Arbenesh from Novoberdo:

https://www.academia.edu/16836705/REGJISTRIMI_I_VENDBANIMEVE_DHE_I_POPULLESISE_SE_KA ZASE_SE_NOVOBERDES_SIPAS_DEFTERIT_TE_FUNDSHEKULLIT _XV

from page 145-161; http://www.ashak.org/repository/docs/2015.6.4_KERKIMEONOMASTIKE_940548.pdf

,with those Tosk Arberor (Arvanites) in Greece during the same century XV:
- http://www.lithoksou.net/p/onomateponyma-ton-albanon-arbaniton-tis-boreiodytikis-peloponnisoy-ton-15o-aiona-2009
- from page 250 and on; https://pdfslide.net/documents/e-balta-l-eubee-a-la-fin-du-xv-siecle-economie-et-population-les-registres.html
- check the Onomastics in latin, about this region in the southern part of Thessaly in 1455: ‘Η απογραφή των Κραβάρων στο οθωμανικό φορολογικό κατάστιχο ΜΜ10 (1454-1455)’, Ναυπακτιακά 15 (2007-2009), 415-561.

Also concerning Thessaly, there is a Greek from this area which is A18844+, i mean knowing the Historical past of that region, it seems easy to guess his true roots !! https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=285.380

Exercitus
03-02-2020, 09:18 PM
Now just to concretize in Mathematical terms (percentage) the Demographic contribution of the Orthodox Albanians (Arvanites) in medieval Greece - specifically in the Peloponnese\Morea peninsula - take a look here at page 13: https://www.academia.edu/25948006/The_Ottoman_Conquest_of_the_Morea_1387_-_1460_

Bruzmi
03-03-2020, 02:46 PM
So, that Burmazovic sample is from someone from Belgrade, who may have some very distant relation, so it's pretty inconclusive. Burmazi had more than 200 households in the 15th century. A quite big population, larger than most other Albanian tribes of that era, so branches but also people who carry the surname with no patrilineal descent today could form a quite large population size. I was wondering if there was a Burmazi sample from that village itself, or from Dubrovnik where many of them settled ultimately. That would be very interesting.

Very nice Exercitus. I studied that paper you posted here. I did not know that the Albanian/Arvanite settlement in the Morea in the 15th century was so extensive (411/567 of the total number of settlements!). I was wondering if there are any papers about Arvanite tribal organization in Morea? I tried to do a bit of research of my own and found that there was a tribe called "Bardouniotes" (obviously from "bardh", a word which (incidentally!) we were discussing with Kelmendasi a couple of days ago) in the 18th- early 19th century. Apparently, they converted to Islam from the Orthodox Church and left the area after it became independent from the Ottomans.

http://spartan.repository4u.com/wordpress/2017/10/06/holy-monastery-of-gola/ "The recent restoration and renovation of the monastery’s building, reveal its strong defensive and fort-like character, which however was not enough to intercept the warlike Bardouniotes Albanians who destroyed it, pillaged it and stole all its possessions, while the monks fled to all directions, in order to return after the liberation, determined to repair it and cultivate again its barren grounds."

Exercitus
03-03-2020, 06:19 PM
Hello MaleSchreiber,
Actually the most important information it's that percentage (> 41 % of the inhabitants of Morea in the year 1463 were Albanian !!), we encounter also almost the same percentage overall in central Greece, the demographic impact (obviously the Genetic also!!) it's considerable. For more accurate data's i suggest you this recent book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Early-Ottoman-Peloponnese-Annotated-1460-1463/dp/1909942324

Now that Greek from Thessaly A18844+ , it's from nearby the Old Village of Mataranga (Ματαράγκα) Karditsas. I will ask you a favor can you distinguish the typical Albanian Toponyms in this list\map of settlments from the Defter of Trikala of the year 1454 - this area is located in the heart of Thessaly - !?http://e-karditsa.gr/karpohori/index.php?page=17

So i think that this might also explain the Genetic affinity between Greeks and Albanians (in Gedmatch, 23andme, Myheritage etc ), two weeks ago i got in the same day from Myheritage two 'cousins' one with the surname Candreva (from USA) and the other from North Andros, Greece, with the surname Roussos, more than 600\700 years away and we still carry the 'traces' of our common ancestry in the DNA !! That's just amazing !!

Exercitus
03-03-2020, 06:26 PM
About the Bardouniotes (Bardhunjotet) and Laliotes (Laliotet) which were local Morean Albanian Muslims (islamizated Arvanites), i will be more direct, they cooperated with the Turk-Ottomans during the Greek Revolution of 1821, against their own neighbors\brothers Greeks & Arvanites!! So they took what they deserved !!

Sorcelow
03-03-2020, 06:33 PM
Hello MaleSchreiber,
Actually the most important information it's that percentage (> 41 % of the inhabitants of Morea in the year 1463 were Albanian !!), we encounter also almost the same percentage overall in central Greece, the demographic impact (obviously the Genetic also!!) it's considerable. For more accurate data's i suggest you this recent book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Early-Ottoman-Peloponnese-Annotated-1460-1463/dp/1909942324

Now that Greek from Thessaly A18844+ , it's from nearby the Old Village of Mataranga (Ματαράγκα) Karditsas. I will ask you a favor can you distinguish the typical Albanian Toponyms in this list\map of settlments from the Defter of Trikala of the year 1454 - this area is located in the heart of Thessaly - !?http://e-karditsa.gr/karpohori/index.php?page=17

So i think that this might also explain the Genetic affinity between Greeks and Albanians (in Gedmatch, 23andme, Myheritage etc ), two weeks ago i got in the same day from Myheritage two 'cousins' one with the surname Candreva (from USA) and the other from North Andros, Greece, with the surname Roussos, more than 600\700 years away and we still carry the 'traces' of our common ancestry in the DNA !! That's just amazing !!

I ordered that book a couple of days ago, looking forward to receiving it. Regarding Arvanite settlement in the Peloponnese, we have to be weary of those figures because it appears the entirety of Lakonia, including Mani is omitted. This region would probably have been the most densely populated in the peninsula (it was in the 1700 Grimani census), and historically has been almost entirely Greek speaking.

J Man
03-03-2020, 06:40 PM
Hello MaleSchreiber,
Actually the most important information it's that percentage (> 41 % of the inhabitants of Morea in the year 1463 were Albanian !!), we encounter also almost the same percentage overall in central Greece, the demographic impact (obviously the Genetic also!!) it's considerable. For more accurate data's i suggest you this recent book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Early-Ottoman-Peloponnese-Annotated-1460-1463/dp/1909942324

Now that Greek from Thessaly A18844+ , it's from nearby the Old Village of Mataranga (Ματαράγκα) Karditsas. I will ask you a favor can you distinguish the typical Albanian Toponyms in this list\map of settlments from the Defter of Trikala of the year 1454 - this area is located in the heart of Thessaly - !?http://e-karditsa.gr/karpohori/index.php?page=17

So i think that this might also explain the Genetic affinity between Greeks and Albanians (in Gedmatch, 23andme, Myheritage etc ), two weeks ago i got in the same day from Myheritage two 'cousins' one with the surname Candreva (from USA) and the other from North Andros, Greece, with the surname Roussos, more than 600\700 years away and we still carry the 'traces' of our common ancestry in the DNA !! That's just amazing !!

Very interesting stuff...Have you seen many Arvanite Y-DNA results?

Kelmendasi
03-03-2020, 07:39 PM
Now that Greek from Thessaly A18844+ , it's from nearby the Old Village of Mataranga (Ματαράγκα) Karditsas. I will ask you a favor can you distinguish the typical Albanian Toponyms in this list\map of settlments from the Defter of Trikala of the year 1454 - this area is located in the heart of Thessaly - !?http://e-karditsa.gr/karpohori/index.php?page=17
Very interesting that this village is called Mataranga Karditsas, wonder if it's connected to the Albanian Mataranga family?

As for A18844, given that the nearby villages have names of Albanian etymology, it is possible that this group was also spread with the Arvanites. However, as far as I know some Aromanian samples also tested as A18844+ so that's also a possibility. So far no Albanian from the project has tested as A18844+, however there are some Z19851+ (from the Shoshi tribe) and Z19851>Y172393 (Bobi branch of Thaēi) which is just upstream of A18844. I believe though that an Arbėreshė from a study was Z19851>A18844.

Kelmendasi
03-03-2020, 07:45 PM
Very interesting stuff...Have you seen many Arvanite Y-DNA results?
As far as I am aware, not many Arvanites have actually tested. However, the ones I have come across are R-Z2705+ and E-V13+ (clades such as FGC11450 and BY4461). There should also be a few J2b-L283.

Kelmendasi
03-03-2020, 08:18 PM
So, that Burmazovic sample is from someone from Belgrade, who may have some very distant relation, so it's pretty inconclusive. Burmazi had more than 200 households in the 15th century. A quite big population, larger than most other Albanian tribes of that era, so branches but also people who carry the surname with no patrilineal descent today could form a quite large population size. I was wondering if there was a Burmazi sample from that village itself, or from Dubrovnik where many of them settled ultimately. That would be very interesting.
From what I understand, the Burmazović sample is originally from eastern Kosovo. It's claimed that they came from the village of Zhiti near Gjilan, but were originally from the villages around Plav and Gusinje. Very hard to say if this family is actually paternally descended from the Medieval Burmazi, pretty sure another family claiming relation to the Burmazi tested as I-PH908 which complicates things. https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1794.0.

I also remember reading that a family claiming origin from the Zotović tested as R-Y4354, apparently Y4354 is shared with a guy who originates from the Ugarak/Ugarci of Herzegovina.

Keqa
03-03-2020, 08:44 PM
Guys, just want to say that we need to be careful with these results reported by poreklo. Vast majority are private and have been tested in Belgrade, so no way to confirm them.

Bruzmi
03-03-2020, 09:08 PM
Yeah, I agree with Keqa in light of the info Kelmendasi also provided. It was already very inconclusive, but what Kelmendasi wrote, makes it even harder to get to even a limited hypothesis to be tested.

So, in the page Exceritus sent us, here's my take:
The village itself Kibrisi is definitely G(j)erbeshi in Albanian. It basically means "he/she who lives on the hill slope".

The anthroponymy:
Matranga from the Mataranga tribe that also bore a feudal family in southern Albania.
Ginlalsi -> Gjin Lalėsi , probably the name of their progenitor
Koliza -> Kolėza, same here, "Nicholas the younger" in English
Kalenci -> Kalenxi, another Albanian tribe that settled in the south.

and a possible one:
Gonē -> maybe Gjonēa (John the Younger)

Bruzmi
03-03-2020, 09:10 PM
Sorcelow, could you upload the index page in case somebody wants to ask about something specific included in that book?

Exercitus
03-03-2020, 11:59 PM
Now about the E-Y172393->А18844 issue, first of all i didn't notice any Arberesh or Vlach А18844 +, during their discussion, they indeed mentioned them but without concret indications (they arent neither in Yfull). So all the Serbian\Montenegrin\Bulgarians belong either to E-A18844 (tmrca -1000 ybp) or E-A9739(tmrca - 500ybp), the most 'old dude' is this here E-Y172393* a Albanian from Shkoder (or Puka, whatever !!)https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y172393/

Well just to confront two incogruent opinions between:
1- Drajver, which explained to the Greek from Thessaly (A18844 +) cit .." If you are A18844+, then it seems that division of A18833 happened somewhere in southern regions. Thessaly? Epirus?"..
2- Zlatan, cit.."As far as E-A18833-> Y172393 is concerned, the real migration route could be Shopluk -> Northern Albania -> Montenegro / BiH. Today we have members E-Y172393-> A9739 originally from the border region of Serbia and Bulgaria, while one Y172393 * is from Albania.

So what should we think about it, was E-A18833 (tmrca -1450 ybp) divided in south Albania\Epirus in E-Y172393 (Albanian from Shkoder) than in E-A18844 (tmrca -1000 ybp) a branch of which went toward north becoming the pre-slavic (Albanoid!) Mataruga tribe, that gradually assimilated into the Slavic milieu, and another branch E-A18844 toward south becoming the Tosk Albanian tribes ( also Vlach ?), which later were scattered in central-south Greece ( XIII-XIV centuries) ?? Or it's the Homeland of E-A18833 the Shopi region between Serbia and Bulgaria ?? Now personally i will take in consideration the second option as plausible, only if a E-A18833 + ( as terminal SNP) will appear from that area of Torlak-speakers, till than, meanwhile i agree with Drajver !!

We have i interesting case, that of the Kuci tribe, in the role of the 'old dude' it is also a Albanian https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY168279/

Or even in the case of R-PF7562 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7562/

I have the impression that the same thing that happened with the cases of Kuci and Mataruga, will probably occur also concerning the Krici tribe (a Albanian with a Tmrca much more older will be discovered soon!!) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/

Exercitus
03-04-2020, 12:17 AM
Maleschreiber, also

Kaznis -> Kaznec
Malkas -> Malakasa
Capoga -> Capuga (wellknown Arvanitic Patronymy)
Bicari -> Picari ..
in the map:
Maskolori -> Mashkullore ..(did the names above remind you of a specific region in south Albania ??)
Mosnikola -> Mirash Nikolla
Magula -> Mengulla (Mengulat) etc
Here you have them: https://www.academia.edu/34967463/%CE%98%CE%97%CE%9C_-_%CE%A4%CF%8C%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82_70%CE%BF%CF%82_-_%CE%A3%CE%95%CE%9B._273_-_306_-_%CE%A3%CE%A0%CE%91%CE%9D%CE%9F%CE%A3-%CE%9A%CE%91%CE%93%CE%99%CE%91%CE%A0_%CE%98%CE%B5% CF%83%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8C_%CE%97%C E%BC%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%BF%CE%BB%CF%8C%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE% BF_-_%CE%A4%CF%8C%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82_70%CE%BF%CF%82

Keqa
03-04-2020, 01:38 AM
Now about the E-Y172393->А18844 issue, first of all i didn't notice any Arberesh or Vlach А18844 +, during their discussion, they indeed mentioned them but without concret indications (they arent neither in Yfull). So all the Serbian\Montenegrin\Bulgarians belong either to E-A18844 (tmrca -1000 ybp) or E-A9739(tmrca - 500ybp), the most 'old dude' is this here E-Y172393* a Albanian from Shkoder (or Puka, whatever !!)https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y172393/[/url]

Y172393* from Shkoder is the Bobi fella who are considered to be part of Thaci. They were natives in Dukagjin but Shala displaced them. So, from Dukagjin some moved to Puke (Kokedode and Fierze mostly) and from there they expanded into Kosove. He is not older. He is parallel to those two branches, basically sharing the same tmrca (1150ybp). Most of the Serbs there however are Montenegrins: Katunjani/Bjelica, Mataruga etc who all trace their ancestry to north Albania.

Shoshi should be there somewhere too but unfortunately they haven't done any SNP testing yet.

Sorcelow
03-04-2020, 03:09 AM
Sorcelow, could you upload the index page in case somebody wants to ask about something specific included in that book?

Hi, the index is in this page: https://www.academia.edu/41194519/The_Early_Ottoman_Peloponnese_A_study_in_the_light _of_an_annotated_editio_princeps_of_the_TT10-1_14662_Ottoman_taxation_cadastre_ca._1460-1463_

I will receive the book on Thursday. I will provide you with whatever you are looking for then.

Kelmendasi
03-05-2020, 12:02 PM
Yeah, I agree with Keqa in light of the info Kelmendasi also provided. It was already very inconclusive, but what Kelmendasi wrote, makes it even harder to get to even a limited hypothesis to be tested.
Yeah, it is very hard to conclusively state which families are indeed descended from the Burmazi. I just want to note however that there is a new result from the Serbian project which may be of interest, a guy with the surname Kurmazović has tested as E-L241. He is from a village called Rasna which is located near Čačak, though his family moved there from the village of Vraneša. According to oral tradition they descend from the Burmazi. L241, especially it's downstream PH2180, is typical of Albanians. From what I understand this sample matches some Serbs who claim descent from the Banjani tribe of Old Herzegovina. https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=391.msg131228#new.

Exercitus
03-05-2020, 02:02 PM
Well as a reply to Sorcelow,
The two most 'neglected' regions in the Defter of Peloponnesus are Lakonia and Argolis. But let's analyze their ethnic composition with the historical data's that we can obtain !!36651

Exercitus
03-05-2020, 02:05 PM
36653

Exercitus
03-05-2020, 02:09 PM
36654

Lakonia in Alfred Philippson (1890) Map, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Pelopones_ethnic.JPG

Dimitris Lithoksou Studies and Maps http://www.lithoksou.net/p/plithysmos-kai-xoria-ton-arbaniton-1879-%E2%80%93-1907-2005

Exercitus
03-05-2020, 02:28 PM
So in the XIX century the Polpulation of the Orthodox Arvanites(Albanians of Greece) in the Central and East Lakonia was reduced at 17 villages with a population of 10,773 inhabitants!! If you see carefully at the left side of the compact Arvanitic community, we observe the terms Bardunia and Barduniochoria( which are simply the Bardhuniotes Albanian !!) which consisted in more than 20 villages in the begining of the XIX century !! At the western part of Lakonia we find the harsh region of Mani, which also had a great ethnic-cultural influence from the new-comers Albanians, there is also a hybrid term (kinda provocative) ΑΛΒΑΝΟΜΑΝΙΑΤΕΣ (Albanian-Maniots!!). So the conclusion it's obvious the big part of Lakonia's Hinterland - internal area - was inhabitated from Albanians in the XV century !! http://www.lithoksou.net/sites/default/files/arvanites_hartis_3.jpg

Exercitus
03-05-2020, 02:45 PM
Argolis: http://www.lithoksou.net/sites/default/files/arvanites_hartis_4.jpg , http://www.lithoksou.net/sites/default/files/arvanites_hartis_5.jpg


Now without doubts that Argolis it is one of the most typical, historical, traditional Arvanitic inhabited-region, with the main town Nafplion, if your are interested you can read also the Bartolomeo Minio's testimony about the presence of Albanian in that area (especially concerning the almost 2000 Albanian Stratiotes in the service of the Serenissima) https://argolikivivliothiki.gr/2014/05/28/case-%ce%b1lbanesi/

Some Albanian Stratiotes in Venice where also known as 'Argouletes', due to their land of origin!!
http://www.lithoksou.net/sites/default/files/arvanitika_horia_hartis_lithoxooy.jpg

Exercitus
03-05-2020, 02:53 PM
Even the Venetian-ruled cities of Corone and Methone\Modone (as the case of Argolis and Nafplion), had a considerable amount of Arvanites, don't forget the proud 'Noble' Coronei Arberesh in Italy, which are the direct descendants of the Albanian Orthodox community of Corone and Modone !!
..."A Corone esisteva dal XII-XIII secolo una folta minoranza albanese ortodossa, chiamata dai locali greci arvanites."... https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corone

Exercitus
03-05-2020, 03:00 PM
Now explain me please, what can we deduce reguarding the ethnic composition of the Greek Towns or the mixed ones, read carefully this two pages..:


36655

36656

Kanenas
03-05-2020, 06:26 PM
So in the XIX century the Polpulation of the Orthodox Arvanites(Albanians of Greece) in the Central and East Lakonia was reduced at 17 villages with a population of 10,773 inhabitants!! If you see carefully at the left side of the compact Arvanitic community, we observe the terms Bardunia and Barduniochoria( which are simply the Bardhuniotes Albanian !!) which consisted in more than 20 villages in the begining of the XIX century !! At the western part of Lakonia we find the harsh region of Mani, which also had a great ethnic-cultural influence from the new-comers Albanians, there is also a hybrid term (kinda provocative) ΑΛΒΑΝΟΜΑΝΙΑΤΕΣ (Albanian-Maniots!!). So the conclusion it's obvious the big part of Lakonia's Hinterland - internal area - was inhabitated from Albanians in the XV century !! http://www.lithoksou.net/sites/default/files/arvanites_hartis_3.jpg

All the villages in that link have Greek names, though.

Sorcelow
03-05-2020, 11:53 PM
So in the XIX century the Polpulation of the Orthodox Arvanites(Albanians of Greece) in the Central and East Lakonia was reduced at 17 villages with a population of 10,773 inhabitants!! If you see carefully at the left side of the compact Arvanitic community, we observe the terms Bardunia and Barduniochoria( which are simply the Bardhuniotes Albanian !!) which consisted in more than 20 villages in the begining of the XIX century !! At the western part of Lakonia we find the harsh region of Mani, which also had a great ethnic-cultural influence from the new-comers Albanians, there is also a hybrid term (kinda provocative) ΑΛΒΑΝΟΜΑΝΙΑΤΕΣ (Albanian-Maniots!!). So the conclusion it's obvious the big part of Lakonia's Hinterland - internal area - was inhabitated from Albanians in the XV century !! http://www.lithoksou.net/sites/default/files/arvanites_hartis_3.jpg


1. Many regions in this defter were simply neglected, or in the case of Lakonia, almost entirely excluded, for whatever reasons. So, while the figures of 60% Greek 40% Albanian are probably not way off the mark, I wouldn't be surprised if the figure was closer to 70/30. Lakonia, and Mani in particular, swelled in population after Turkish occupation.

There exists a compact group of Arvanitic speaking villages in southeastern Lakonia. Interestingly, every single one of these villages has a Greek name, which suggests that these villages were established prior to the arrival of Arvanites and must have contained a Greek-speaking population that preceded them. Other than this group of villages, Albanian was not spoken anywhere else in Lakonia, and local toponyms can attest to this.

Regarding the Bardouniotes, if I am not mistaken, they represent a later group of Albanian speakers who already converted to Islam prior to their settlement of Lakonia in the 18th century. They were settled in lower Mani on purpose to act as a buffer zone between the rebellious Maniots and the rest of the region.

2. I have never heard of the term Alvanomaniates, and I am from Lakonia. Maniots have their own subculture, unique dialect, and a strong sense of Hellenism. The only relation they had with Albanians was when they fought and helped expel the tyrannical Bardouniotes.

3. Argos was, and is to this day, a mixed region, containing both Greek and Arvanitic speaking settlements.

4. We do see some examples of Albanian anthroponyms in settlements identified as Greek, but we also see Greek anthroponyms in settlements identified as Albanian. For example, in the "Albanian" village of Lounsi, 8 heads of households carry the familial name, "Papagiannopoulos".

In fact, many of the "Albanian" familial names are of Greek origin, ex. Rapsommati, Mavromati, Psari, Progonos, Polimenos, Platistomo, Papadatos, Papadakos, Orfanos, Mastroandonis, Logothetis, Kondomichalis, Kondogiorgis, Kefalinos, Kardiokaftis, Kapopoulos, Georgopoulos, Gerakos, Arkoudas, Andreopoulos, Axenos, Axenopoulos, Akritis, Kavasilas, Pavlopoulos, Romios, Stamatopoulos, and the list goes on and on.

J Man
03-06-2020, 03:35 AM
1. Many regions in this defter were simply neglected, or in the case of Lakonia, almost entirely excluded, for whatever reasons. So, while the figures of 60% Greek 40% Albanian are probably not way off the mark, I wouldn't be surprised if the figure was closer to 70/30. Lakonia, and Mani in particular, swelled in population after Turkish occupation.

There exists a compact group of Arvanitic speaking villages in southeastern Lakonia. Interestingly, every single one of these villages has a Greek name, which suggests that these villages were established prior to the arrival of Arvanites and must have contained a Greek-speaking population that preceded them. Other than this group of villages, Albanian was not spoken anywhere else in Lakonia, and local toponyms can attest to this.

Regarding the Bardouniotes, if I am not mistaken, they represent a later group of Albanian speakers who already converted to Islam prior to their settlement of Lakonia in the 18th century. They were settled in lower Mani on purpose to act as a buffer zone between the rebellious Maniots and the rest of the region.

2. I have never heard of the term Alvanomaniates, and I am from Lakonia. Maniots have their own subculture, unique dialect, and a strong sense of Hellenism. The only relation they had with Albanians was when they fought and helped expel the tyrannical Bardouniotes.

3. Argos was, and is to this day, a mixed region, containing both Greek and Arvanitic speaking settlements.

4. We do see some examples of Albanian anthroponyms in settlements identified as Greek, but we also see Greek anthroponyms in settlements identified as Albanian. For example, in the "Albanian" village of Lounsi, 8 heads of households carry the familial name, "Papagiannopoulos".

In fact, many of the "Albanian" familial names are of Greek origin, ex. Rapsommati, Mavromati, Psari, Progonos, Polimenos, Platistomo, Papadatos, Papadakos, Orfanos, Mastroandonis, Logothetis, Kondomichalis, Kondogiorgis, Kefalinos, Kardiokaftis, Kapopoulos, Georgopoulos, Gerakos, Arkoudas, Andreopoulos, Axenos, Axenopoulos, Akritis, Kavasilas, Pavlopoulos, Romios, Stamatopoulos, and the list goes on and on.

Are you Maniot yourself?

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 02:36 PM
Well i understood some important things regarding your manner of constating and interpreting facts.

1- The Bardhuniotes Arvanites (muslims or christians) & Zarakiotes Arvanites in Central-Eastern Lakonia, consisted in more than 40 Villages - ≈ 25 (B) & ≈ 17(Z) - , now Please give me a single historical Fact that could prove you affermation concerning the Bardhuniotes and the other local Arvanites in Lakonia... "represent a later group of Albanian speakers who already converted to Islam prior to their settlement of Lakonia in the 18th century" ..?!

About your proposed percentage(70/30), let it put in a more logical- mathematical level, how culd the percentage of Albanians diminuish if the most neglected (Blank) regions are Lakonia & Argolis - which both are\were typical areas with compact Arvanitic communities, whom 'resisted' the gradual process of assimilation of the Albanian-speakers (during the XVI-XIX centuries), exactly due to their compactness, meanwhile that the Arvanitic presence was 'wiped up' in entire regions in central & south Morea ?!

I repeat till the beginig of the XIX century the 'survived' Albanophone Villages in Lakonia were > 40, in the Prefecture of Argolis in the XIX century more than the half of the inhabitants were Albanians\Arvanites!! https://www.freeinquiry.gr/articles/erevnes/apo-ton-spata-kai-ton-tatoh-sto-xalandri-kai-ti-loytsa-v-meros/1248.html

Even if we add to that calculation the amount of people in the Venetian-ruled cities: Argolis, Nauplio, Corone, Methone etc knowing that this towns were inhatibted by a substantial percentage of Albanian speaking people!! What do you think the percentage will drop to 30% , or will lift toward the 45% ( that is a mediocre mathematical concept!!) ?

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 02:55 PM
2- There is always a first time:http://pluton22.blogspot.com/2011/07/blog-post_19.html
The fact that Maniots had such a subculture and dialect it's precisely because they were physically separated\isolated from the other Greeks, not only because of the Taygetos Mountains;... "These varieties are thought to be relic areas of a previously larger areal dialect group that used to share these features and was later divided by the penetration of Arvanitika settlement in much of its area in the late Middle Ages."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniots

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 03:03 PM
About the toponymy of Mani you can read "Ph. Malingoudis - Slavische Flurnamen aus der messenischen Mani", inhabiting a Village with a Greek name it doesnt make you Greek, as also inhabiting a Slavic-named Village it doesnt make you slavic, other features determinate your Ethnic Background!! http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/phm/gal/fm_124.html

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 03:38 PM
4- That's kinda disappointing, because it clearly shows that you are not sufficiently acquainted regarding the Albanian Anthroponyms\Patronymic categories !!
Well, than i will ask you logical question, why Liakopoulos did'nt prepare a list with the suposed 'Greeks' in the Arnavudan\Albanian Villages - shall we accuse him for being a filo-albanian - ??!

Anyway, keep in mind this simple Anthroponymic rule when you analyze a Defter (trust me i have read quite a lot of them!!) concerning the Albanian-speakers; Every person that carried a typical albanian onomastic, be it a Name or a Surname (Gjin, Gjon, Deda, Leka, Tanush, Progon, Gjika, Doda, Muzak, Manesh, Lika, Gjergj, Menksh etc etc) it can be only a Albanophone, there exist no Serb, Greek or Vlach-speakers that utilize this concret onomastics (especially in Middleages!!), also because of the longterm contact and coexistence of the Albanian with their neighbors, they have incorporated\acquired a lot of Slavic and Greek Anthroponyms !!

Some examples:
- Rapsomati
36696

36697

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 03:52 PM
-Mavromati (encountered everywhere in Albanian-inhabited areas from Albania till Morea !!)

a) GJIN Mavromati, the founder of the Albanian Village in Beotia - Mavromati - : https://books.google.it/books?id=2NIBVfBX99oC&pg=PA133&lpg=PA133&dq=Gjin+Mavromati&source=bl&ots=OcNFtlsbnc&sig=ACfU3U0YDo7r7_r3Cam6wbLoraBrnUa-tQ&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj77rSPkYboAhUJYcAKHTi7DLwQ6AEwAHoECAoQA Q#v=onepage&q=Gjin%20Mavromati&f=false

b) GJON Mavromati, the Christian Albanian Timarli in Tirhala\Trikala in the year 1454!

p.s: About Rapesi as a Surname;
36698

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 04:23 PM
-Psari (it's just a Toponym turned in a typical Albanian Patronymic)
So it hasn't nothing to do with fish or Maritime life, it is encountered in Albania and Epirus( always in Albanian-speaking regions)
a) Psar i Zi - Korce
b) Psar - Permet
c) Psareza - Ajdonat\Paramithi (Tsamouria)
https://www.academia.edu/6396137/_%CE%95thnic_and_Religious_Composition_of_Ottoman_ Thesprotia_in_the_15th_to_17th_centuries_with_M._O %C4%9Fuz_and_F._Ya%C5%9Far_in_B._Fors%C3%A9n_and_E ._Tikkala_eds._Thesprotia_Expedition_II._Environme nt_and_Settlement_Patterns_Helsinki_2011_347-389

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 04:32 PM
-Kavasila ( the same identical phenomenon as Psari, it was carried by the Konitsiotes Arvanites in Greece, as the case of other Toponyms turned Patronyms; Kalenxhi, Burlesha, Pangrati, Dramesi, Mazi, Laleza, Krapsi, Filati, Gumenica, Kravari, Peta, Lavda etc etc all the abovementioned Toponyms are located in Western\Central Epirus aka Tsamouria\Cameria, which is the original homeland of the big part of Arvanites !!)
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Kavasila,+441+00,+Grecia/Konitsa,+441+00,+Grecia/@40.0912022,20.6741056,10061m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x135a4a0a827808 b5:0x3ee259433b6f1a6f!2m2!1d20.7118058!2d40.085941 3!1m5!1m1!1s0x135a351a807a743d:0x5fb178ab9a9484bc! 2m2!1d20.7528378!2d40.0480719

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 04:47 PM
- Papada\Papadhates (a old Arvanitic village in Souli\Suli, also the other old Village south of Papadhate and Nikolitsi is the wellknown DARA - which it's the place of origin of all Arberesh in Italy and Arberor(Arvanites) in Greece with that surname !! - today hidden by the Greek name Έλαια...

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Papadates,+Aetolia-Acarnania+483+00,+Grecia/@39.3001894,20.7776152,4727m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x135c0be88cdb0bad:0x4e5e1 6a0f8462ae2!8m2!3d39.3134407!4d20.7929638

36699

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 04:58 PM
- Mastro Andoni (explain me please why & what does it make non-albanian??)

36700

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 05:05 PM
- Logotheti (Wellknown Stradiotic Clan, as the today Ikonomi, Qefalia etc are typical also among the Albanians, the last one carried even by Albanian muslims ... in center Albania!!)

36701

Sorcelow
03-06-2020, 05:30 PM
- Logotheti (Wellknown Stradiotic Clan, as the today Ikonomi, Qefalia etc are typical also among the Albanians, the last one carried even by Albanian muslims ... in center Albania!!)

36701


Exercitus, the point is that the majority of the familial names I mentioned are of Greek origin. I am not disputing that they were used Albanian speakers. Those names, Logotheti, Mavromati, and Qefalia are all Greek.

Some of the names you mentioned, namely Papadates and Mastroandoni are more ambiguous. Kavasila in Konitsa is a Greek speaking village, and actually the entirety of the prefecture of Konitsa is inhabited by Greek speakers. The only Albanians who lived here were the Muslims who lived in the town of Konitsa itself.

I am not sure why the author of the book did not mention Greek names amongst inhabitants living in “Albanian” villages, but he should have.

I’ll respond to the rest of what you posted later, when I am back from work. But what I can assure you is that Lakonia, Messinia, and eastern Arkadia (Tsakonia) have always been predominantly Greek speaking, even when taking into account the Bardouniotes and Zarakiotes. The defter is so incomplete that a thorough assessment of the demographic makeup of the Peloponnese at this time cannot be made.

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 05:53 PM
Now some interesant of GHEG Albanians among the Arvanites\Albanians:

- Llazar Gega
36703

- Vreto Gega
36704

- Llazar Dibrani
36705

- Gjon Gega & Gjin Zlatka
36706

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 06:25 PM
Well the Ottomans utilized this distinction between different ethnicities, obviously for economical reasons (ispence payment in the basis of social-economical status), but to make this process possible - as Liakopoulos has explained also - it was engaged a Translater (that was able to master both languages)!

So two different cases in Thessaly and in Peleponesse, which shows how 'professional' were Ottomans in distinguishing different ethnic peoples !!

1) Damasi Village(Thessaly), the Greek quartier (Rumiyan) and the Vlach quartier (Eflagan):
https://www.academia.edu/34967479/%CE%98%CE%97%CE%9C_-_%CE%A4%CF%8C%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82_71%CE%BF%CF%82_-_%CE%A3%CE%95%CE%9B._003_-_013_-_%CE%9A%CE%91%CE%93%CE%99%CE%99%CE%91%CE%A0%CE%99% CE%9D%CE%91%CE%A1-%CE%A3%CE%A0%CE%91%CE%9D%CE%9F%CE%A3_71%CE%BF%CF%8 2_%CE%98%CE%97%CE%9C_-_%CE%A4%CF%8C%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82_71%CE%BF%CF%82


2)Sofyana Village (Patra), the Greek neighborhood and the Albanian neighborhood:

36708

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 06:36 PM
In the same Albanian Katund the people were ethnically distinguished by their surname, in a lot of cases we observe the surname Romyos (Greek) or also Grek (which is the way how albanians call greeks) also Sklia\Sklavi (which is a general term for all the non-albanian speakers), in this case we have a small Arnavudan\albanian Katund with two persons one a Vlach\Ivlaho and the other a Serb\Servos;

36709

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 07:17 PM
Now i would like to point out the presence of another - quite unexpected - ethnicity among Albanians; The Slavs (especially Serbs\Sirv), the Slavic Anthroponymy was widespreaded among Albanians (especially among Ghegs in direct contact with Slavophone communities, and widely the Tosk Albanians!!).

36710

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 07:25 PM
Concretely some cases of Albanians: Bogdan Muzaka, Dabzhiv Muzaka, Radoslav Matranga, Gjon Radoslavi.. etc

Rayko Serb
36711

Zlatka
36712

Poleska
36713

Brazna
36714


etc !!!

Bruzmi
03-06-2020, 07:26 PM
Exercitus, I disagree with that. Slavic Orthodox anthroponymy has to do with the baptism under a Slavic Orthodox Church, not necessarily ethnicity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branko_Manoilovski has no "Slavic ethnic presence". He just grew up under the Slavic Orthodox Church of his region and was given that name.

The Servio you're seeing there isn't related to Serbs either. It basically means border guard in Latin. There's a Servian Wall just outside of Rome, no Serbs there either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servian_Wall

The Burgari/Bulgaria Arvanitic surname has to do with the fact that southern Albanians lived under the Bulgarian Empire. That's pretty much it. Bulgarian populations that were actual Bulgarians never really lost their language or became something else. They're still pretty much Bulgarian/Macedonian etc. wherever they live.

There's also another component which has to do with Slavic presence in the Morea itself centuries before the arrival of Albanians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melingoi but these people had assimilated by then and only their names reminded their presence among the native Greek population.

Bruzmi
03-06-2020, 07:28 PM
Exercitus, I disagree with that. Slavic Orthodox anthroponymy has to do with the baptism under a Slavic Orthodox Church, not necessarily ethnicity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branko_Manoilovski has no "Slavic ethnic presence". He just grew up under the Slavic Orthodox Church of his region and was given that name.

The Servio you're seeing there isn't related to Serbs either. It basically means border guard in Latin. There's a Servian Wall just outside of Rome, no Serbs there either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servian_Wall

The Burgari/Bulgaria Arvanitic surname has to do with the fact that southern Albanians lived under the Bulgarian Empire. That's pretty much it. Bulgarian populations that were actual Bulgarians never really lost their language or became something else. They're still pretty much Bulgarian/Macedonia etc. wherever they live.

There's also another component which has to do with Slavic presence in the Morea itself centuries before the arrival of Albanians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melingoi but these people had assimilated by then and only their names reminded their presence among the native Greek population.

Gega doesn't mean necessarily "someone who is from northern Albania", but also "Geg" in the very literal meaning of the word in Albanian as in "i gjegj", "someone whose language is intelligible".

vettor
03-06-2020, 07:32 PM
- Mastro Andoni (explain me please why & what does it make non-albanian??)

36700

mastro means master
andoni is his christian name


so a master of something and not a teacher of something

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 07:49 PM
From the Defter of Eubea in the year 1474, the other Villages around are mixed, mostly Albanian !! Look carefully names and surnames !!

36715

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Skepasti+340+05,+Grecia/@38.8263348,23.3429689,4759m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x14a0cadf537be1db:0x 8102f3096c5ccade!2sSkepasti+343+00,+Grecia!3b1!8m2 !3d38.9178235!4d23.046892!3m4!1s0x14a0d506aac0bc9f :0x66f27d13c5090416!8m2!3d38.8342129!4d23.3646262

Sorcelow
03-06-2020, 07:55 PM
From the Defter of Eubea in the year 1474, the other Villages around are mixed, mostly Albanian !! Look carefully names and surnames !!

36715

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Skepasti+340+05,+Grecia/@38.8263348,23.3429689,4759m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x14a0cadf537be1db:0x 8102f3096c5ccade!2sSkepasti+343+00,+Grecia!3b1!8m2 !3d38.9178235!4d23.046892!3m4!1s0x14a0d506aac0bc9f :0x66f27d13c5090416!8m2!3d38.8342129!4d23.3646262

Where did you find this defter?

Exercitus
03-06-2020, 07:57 PM
https://pdfslide.net/documents/e-balta-l-eubee-a-la-fin-du-xv-siecle-economie-et-population-les-registres.html


https://it.scribd.com/doc/212234588/E-Balta-L%CA%BC-Eubee-a-la-fin-du-XV-siecle-economie-et-population-les-registres-de-l-annee-1474-INR-Mpalta-89-01

Bruzmi
03-06-2020, 08:19 PM
mastro means master
andoni is his christian name


so a master of something and not a teacher of something

You're right about the fact that the name "Mastro Andoni" doesn't equal to any ethnicity or culture in particular. It's just a generic medieval southern European name.
But this Mastro Andoni is part of an "Arnavudan" (Albanian) community. Lastly and conclusively, the head of the village and a descendant of this "Mastro Andoni" (probably his son), is Gon Mastroandon (Gjon Mastroandoni). A pretty typical Albanian name.

Two other typical Albanian surnames that I found interesting:

Ispata --> Shpata, Kriyobardis-->Kryebardhi

Bruzmi
03-06-2020, 08:23 PM
I want to ask something from Exercitus (and the other newcomers), this is a thread basically about genealogy, Y DNA research and fis lineages. So, defters about Arvanitic settlements can be of value in our discussion, but in a specific context, not as a catch-all overriding theme to discuss Arvanites in Greece. Maybe you can start a new thread and make it a specific thread about that.

Bruzmi
03-06-2020, 09:16 PM
1. Many regions in this defter were simply neglected, or in the case of Lakonia, almost entirely excluded, for whatever reasons. So, while the figures of 60% Greek 40% Albanian are probably not way off the mark, I wouldn't be surprised if the figure was closer to 70/30. Lakonia, and Mani in particular, swelled in population after Turkish occupation.

There exists a compact group of Arvanitic speaking villages in southeastern Lakonia. Interestingly, every single one of these villages has a Greek name, which suggests that these villages were established prior to the arrival of Arvanites and must have contained a Greek-speaking population that preceded them. Other than this group of villages, Albanian was not spoken anywhere else in Lakonia, and local toponyms can attest to this.

Regarding the Bardouniotes, if I am not mistaken, they represent a later group of Albanian speakers who already converted to Islam prior to their settlement of Lakonia in the 18th century. They were settled in lower Mani on purpose to act as a buffer zone between the rebellious Maniots and the rest of the region.



More probable than the villages being already established is the fact that the land upon which they settled was part of someone's feudal property, so it got the general name of the area. When these people were invited in the Morea, they were given empty land, so it wouldn't make sense to settle them in established villages with the exception of guards in urban centres. It would be interesting, if there was a pre-Venetian register/cadaster of the Peloponnese, so we could compare the differences in human geography.

I don't think that it makes much sense to make any assumption based on the figures in 1463. I mean that even if they were 60/40 or 70/30, it tells us nothing even about the near future from that date. Population movements were very rapid in that period and settlements disappeared as quickly as they re-appeared. What I find interesting is the social organization of the area and my question is this: We know that the Albanian settlers were organized in a tribal system. Were the local Greeks organized in such system too? If so, it must have been in decline in the feudal period. So, did the Albanian presence re-inforce this mode of social organization? If it didn't exist, did it kick-start it in a region where local feudalism had collapsed?

I read that the Bardouniotes were Arvanites from Arcadia, but they had no mosque or Muslim rites. They converted for political reasons and they had a sort of "code of honour" in their relations with the Maniotes despite the constant fighting. There's no reason to label any group as "good" or "bad" guys in these cases. The Bardouniotes were basically derbendci guards (trade route guards) that also pillaged other communities from time to time because of blood feuding and economic reasons. But whoever was in the derbendci social status in the Balkans did just that. Many Greek communities were basically doing the same thing as them, including the Maniotes. The basic difference between them is that the Bardouniotes were on the losing side of history.

Kanenas
03-06-2020, 09:32 PM
You're right about the fact that the name "Mastro Andoni" doesn't equal to any ethnicity or culture in particular. It's just a generic medieval southern European name.
But this Mastro Andoni is part of an "Arnavudan" (Albanian) community. Lastly and conclusively, the head of the village and a descendant of this "Mastro Andoni" (probably his son), is Gon Mastroandon (Gjon Mastroandoni). A pretty typical Albanian name.



Mastro- is Greek (of ultimate Latin origin, through medieval Greek).
Someone with a surname like that is very likely to have descended from an artisan, craftsman etc. who was part of a Greek speaking community.

Bruzmi
03-06-2020, 10:07 PM
Mastro- is Greek (of ultimate Latin origin, through medieval Greek).
Someone with a surname like that is very likely to have descended from an artisan, craftsman etc. who was part of a Greek speaking community.

"This Mastro Andoni is part of an "Arnavudan" (Albanian) community. Lastly and conclusively, the head of the village and a descendant of this "Mastro Andoni" (probably his son), is Gon Mastroandon (Gjon Mastroandoni). A pretty typical Albanian name."

Mastro- is part of Albanian too in many forms Mastro/Mjeshter etc., it really means nothing particular in terms of judging ethnicity. It's not even common in Greek as far as I can tell in bibliography. You'll have to explain why this was listed as a community of Albanians (Arnavudan) and his son had a typical Albanian name, Gjon (Gon). Also, note that most people in this village were part either of this Mastro-Andoni's family or from another family Turnari except for Shpata (Ispata) and Kryebardhi people.

The Mastro-Andoni was no artisan, friend, don't get mistaken by what the name may remind you. He was with a 99,5% statistical certainty the head of small farming (ex-pastoral probably) brotherhood that settled in those parts, which is why his name also appears as that of a founder. The organization of kinship ties in this village is basically the same as that of a typical small village in the defter of Shkodra in 1485. And I'm not saying that as an assumption. It's right in that attachment. Osr-i hinta is the tax farmers paid and osr-i bagat that of viticulture. These are the main taxes these people paid. No artisanal products for hipster youngsters in this village :P

But as I said, this thread is about another topic. A general history about Albanian settlement in Greece and Italy is another topic. Quite interesting, but not the topic discussed here. Maybe we could discuss this in another thread :)

Kanenas
03-06-2020, 10:26 PM
I said 'to have descended from an artisan'. I likely descend from someone who was a priest but I am not, as far as I know.

Kelmendasi
03-06-2020, 10:37 PM
Mastro- is Greek (of ultimate Latin origin, through medieval Greek).
Someone with a surname like that is very likely to have descended from an artisan, craftsman etc. who was part of a Greek speaking community.
Just because the etymology of the name is Greek, doesn't mean that the individual was of Greek origin. Judging by the records we have, it was rather common for Albanians of the Medieval to have or take names that were of Slavic, Latin or Greek origin. Probably the result of contacts between the groups as well as the fact that the Albanians never had their own church system.

vettor
03-07-2020, 12:38 AM
You're right about the fact that the name "Mastro Andoni" doesn't equal to any ethnicity or culture in particular. It's just a generic medieval southern European name.
But this Mastro Andoni is part of an "Arnavudan" (Albanian) community. Lastly and conclusively, the head of the village and a descendant of this "Mastro Andoni" (probably his son), is Gon Mastroandon (Gjon Mastroandoni). A pretty typical Albanian name.

Two other typical Albanian surnames that I found interesting:

Ispata --> Shpata, Kriyobardis-->Kryebardhi

that surname is here
http://www.levantineheritage.com/aidin-personnel.html

and below...but I cannot read Greek

http://androni.blogspot.com/2018/10/k.html

Pavlos Geriobardes, χωριό Mastro Andoni - Gardičko.

Bruzmi
03-09-2020, 03:00 PM
Doing research about Old Kuci (Kuci i vjeter/Staro Kuci). I uploaded the page from the cadaster of Shkodra in 1416-17 where the village they claim is their ancestral place is located https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku%C4%8Di#/media/File:Old_Kuci_1416.png

It turns out that their immediate first ancestor is truly a Nenad as in tradition. His firstborn son was the head of the village, Jon Nada (Nenad but the scribe miswrote it as "Nada"). He also had 2 other sons a Gjergj (Giergi in the Venetian original) and a Lazėr and probably a daughter Nesa (short form of Nenada). She was the widow of a Jon Progani who married into this village's kin. Their son, also the head of household, was a Gjin Progani.

The rest about a noble connection of this Nenad to the nobleman Gojko Mrnjavčević (himself a fictional character) doesn't add up to archival dates. It's basically an invention of the late 19th century to provide for a more "noble" ancestry line.

Kelmendasi
03-09-2020, 04:58 PM
@Maleschreiber: Nice find! Does the oral tradition of the Mrnjavčići (Old Kuēi) specifically state this particular village as their place of origin? As far as I know, oral tradition claims that they left the region of Shkodra (village not specified) and moved to the village of Peshtan or Bardhaj, both of which are located in Kelmend. From there they moved to Orahovo which is in Kuēi and encountered the natives. They arrived as Catholics according to tradition.

The oldest mention of the surname Kuēi is in a record from 1330 where an individual named Petar Kuēi is mentioned. He was from the katun of Lješa Tuza (Llesh Tuzi), an Albanian katun located near Shkrel and Kastrat.

Most of the Serbo-Montenegrin tribes have oral traditions that state descent from nobles or princes, which, as you mentioned, was solely done in order to increase the prestige of the tribe. We see a similar story given by the Drekalovići branch which claims origin from a son of Gjon Kastrioti II, Skanderbeg's son, who was left behind with his mother when the Kastrioti fled to Italy. This story makes very little historical sense given that Gjon was only 12 years old when his family left for Italy.

J Man
03-09-2020, 06:46 PM
@Maleschreiber: Nice find! Does the oral tradition of the Mrnjavčići (Old Kuēi) specifically state this particular village as their place of origin? As far as I know, oral tradition claims that they left the region of Shkodra (village not specified) and moved to the village of Peshtan or Bardhaj, both of which are located in Kelmend. From there they moved to Orahovo which is in Kuēi and encountered the natives. They arrived as Catholics according to tradition.

The oldest mention of the surname Kuēi is in a record from 1330 where an individual named Petar Kuēi is mentioned. He was from the katun of Lješa Tuza (Llesh Tuzi), an Albanian katun located near Shkrel and Kastrat.

Most of the Serbo-Montenegrin tribes have oral traditions that state descent from nobles or princes, which, as you mentioned, was solely done in order to increase the prestige of the tribe. We see a similar story given by the Drekalovići branch which claims origin from a son of Gjon Kastrioti II, Skanderbeg's son, who was left behind with his mother when the Kastrioti fled to Italy. This story makes very little historical sense given that Gjon was only 12 years old when his family left for Italy.

Marko Miljanov Popvic was of the Drekalovići branch of Kuci I believe.

Kelmendasi
03-09-2020, 06:59 PM
Marko Miljanov Popvic was of the Drekalovići branch of Kuci I believe.
Yeah, he was born in the village of Medun and belonged to the Ilikovići brotherhood of the Drekalovići.

Bruzmi
03-09-2020, 07:56 PM
No, just the general region of Shkodra is in their tradition. There's only one Kuci settlement though in the whole of northern Albania and it fits the oral tradition about Nenad. That is why there is a basically universal consensus in bibliography about it being their settlement. What is also interesting is that Kuci claims ancestry from Nenad of Kuci, but this village was not the only Kuci village in the region. Old Kuci was just one part of the original Kuci fis. The other ones were in Shurdhani, near Koplik and the village Bardhė. So while it is true that Old Kuci came from Kuēi, Shkodėr they weren't *the* Kuēi tribe, but one of its branches.

Well, there's no oral tradition about Mrnjavčići and Kuci in reality. So, the character Gojko Mrnjavčić is a made up character that became popular in Montenegron in 1846 in "The Mountain Wreath" written by Petar II Petrović-Njegoš. Originally, this Gojko was related to the Petrovic family in "tradition". What happened is that in order to discredit Petrovic-Njegos some people in Kuci basically put forward a hypothesis that said "No, Petrovic-Njegos isn't a descendant of nobleman Gojko, Kuci is because his son Nenad was our ancestor". And in the early 20th century Jirecek recorded it as another "tradition". Now this story makes no sense in any way. Gojko is a fictional character. He never existed. And even within fiction before 1846, he had no son named Nenad, because he supposedly died at the age of 16 in 1371. His father was named Nenad Mrnjava and was a minor nobleman in Hum, but that has nothing at all to do with Kuci and never was part of a tradition about Kuci. This story began only because Kuci was antagonizing the Petrovic-Njegos royal house in Cetinje.

Kelmendasi
03-09-2020, 08:45 PM
No, just the general region of Shkodra is in their tradition. There's only one Kuci settlement though in the whole of northern Albania and it fits the oral tradition about Nenad. That is why there is a basically universal consensus in bibliography about it being their settlement. What is also interesting is that Kuci claims ancestry from Nenad of Kuci, but this village was not the only Kuci village in the region. Old Kuci was just one part of the original Kuci fis. The other ones were in Shurdhani, near Koplik and the village Bardhė. So while it is true that Old Kuci came from Kuēi, Shkodėr they weren't *the* Kuēi tribe, but one of its branches.

Well, there's no oral tradition about Mrnjavčići and Kuci in reality. So, the character Gojko Mrnjavčić is a made up character that became popular in Montenegron in 1846 in "The Mountain Wreath" written by Petar II Petrović-Njegoš. Originally, this Gojko was related to the Petrovic family in "tradition". What happened is that in order to discredit Petrovic-Njegos some people in Kuci basically put forward a hypothesis that said "No, Petrovic-Njegos isn't a descendant of nobleman Gojko, Kuci is because his son Nenad was our ancestor". And in the early 20th century Jirecek recorded it as another "tradition". Now this story makes no sense in any way. Gojko is a fictional character. He never existed. And even within fiction before 1846, he had no son named Nenad, because he supposedly died at the age of 16 in 1371. His father was named Nenad Mrnjava and was a minor nobleman in Hum, but that has nothing at all to do with Kuci and never was part of a tradition about Kuci. This story began only because Kuci was antagonizing the Petrovic-Njegos royal house in Cetinje.
I see, how can we know for sure though that the Kuēi from Kuē and the Kuēi from Shurdhani and Bardhė were from the same tribe? Also, what's your opinion on the Kuēi from the katun of Llesh Tuzi who were recorded in 1330?

Also have wondered about how the stories of origin from the Berisha began in some of the Albanian families from Kuēi. Some say they stem from the Berisha e Kuqe (Red Berisha) branch of Berisha who migrated west. There were also similar stories for a part of the Piperi who were claimed to stem from the Berisha e Bardhė (White Berisha). Y-DNA has debunked the connections between Berisha, Kuēi and Piperi however.

Bruzmi
03-09-2020, 10:05 PM
This is how the article on wikipedia is now written about those relations:

"In Montenegro, Marko Miljanov from Kuči wrote in his book about hims home region that the Kuči and Berisha were "regarded close", allegedly because the Berisha ancestors settled from Kuči;[6] Konstantin Jireček further recorded about this story that Old Kuči (Staro Kuči), which placed a Grča, son of Nenad as its ancestor also placed him as an ancestor of the Berisha tribe.[7] On the contrary, in Berisha it is believed that Old Kuči itself descends from Berisha and is called Berisha i Kuq (Red Berisha) as opposed to Berisha of Pukė, Mėrturi and a part of Piperi that traces its origin from Berisha, who are collectively called Berisha i Bardh (White Berisha).[8]. In historical record, Berisha and the Old Kuči appear in different areas and timelines as Old Kuči formed part of the tribe of current Kuči, which was based on different ancestral groups in the late 15th century .[5] Neverthless, if not kin by blood, Montenegrin and Albanian tribes regarded closeness in original or home territory from where someone "came". Therefore, Serbian geographer Andrija Jovićević put forward the narrative that the Kuči were "kin" to Kastrati, Berisha and Kelmendi because their distant ancestor once, ostensibly, settled in the same general area as Kuči.[9]"


What I've noticed is that many tribes that are actually related can name the exact relation (even if it has some inconsistencies) and have an actual practice of non-marriage based on that relation. Modern Piperi can name Bukumiri https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukumiri as part of their ancestry in a very specific way for example. All these Berisha-Piperi-Kuci alleged relations have no actual impact in marriage practice with the exception of some Drekalovici not marrying with Berisha, which is a totally different thing. Also, the Berisha-Piperi-Kuci stuff only comes up as "recorded stories" in the late 19th century and even later. They're not part of "canonical" tradition. Berisha's "canonical" tradition has nothing about their traditional progenitor Kol Poga being an ancestor of Kuci or any member of his brotherhood being an ancestor of Kuci, nor does Old Kuci have anything about Berisha in their "canonical" tradition.

If you check the cadaster, as Injac Zamputi (the translator) writes, the scribe's mode of accounting was that he usually listed people who were native to a settlement with their patronymic and those who weren't with their tribe/brotherhood name as a surname. This form of accounting has been noted in Venetian registers throughout the region and is generally accepted by all as a form of marking relations networks.

Selami Pulaha takes it as 100% true that Pjeter Kuci is the first mentioned progenitor of the historical Kuci. In his "Contribution on the Formation of Albanian tribal system" (1975) he writes: "From the material that has been recorded it is evident that first of the community of Kuci, was Pjeter Kuci, head of a branch of an Albanian katun that is mentioned in Zeta already in 1330." In the face of archival records available, I think it holds true.

Kelmendasi
03-09-2020, 10:23 PM
This is how the article on wikipedia is now written about those relations:

"In Montenegro, Marko Miljanov from Kuči wrote in his book about hims home region that the Kuči and Berisha were "regarded close", allegedly because the Berisha ancestors settled from Kuči;[6] Konstantin Jireček further recorded about this story that Old Kuči (Staro Kuči), which placed a Grča, son of Nenad as its ancestor also placed him as an ancestor of the Berisha tribe.[7] On the contrary, in Berisha it is believed that Old Kuči itself descends from Berisha and is called Berisha i Kuq (Red Berisha) as opposed to Berisha of Pukė, Mėrturi and a part of Piperi that traces its origin from Berisha, who are collectively called Berisha i Bardh (White Berisha).[8]. In historical record, Berisha and the Old Kuči appear in different areas and timelines as Old Kuči formed part of the tribe of current Kuči, which was based on different ancestral groups in the late 15th century .[5] Neverthless, if not kin by blood, Montenegrin and Albanian tribes regarded closeness in original or home territory from where someone "came". Therefore, Serbian geographer Andrija Jovićević put forward the narrative that the Kuči were "kin" to Kastrati, Berisha and Kelmendi because their distant ancestor once, ostensibly, settled in the same general area as Kuči.[9]"


What I've noticed is that many tribes that are actually related can name the exact relation (even if it has some inconsistencies) and have an actual practice of non-marriage based on that relation. Modern Piperi can name Bukumiri https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukumiri as part of their ancestry in a very specific way for example. All these Berisha-Piperi-Kuci alleged relations have no actual impact in marriage practice with the exception of some Drekalovici not marrying with Berisha, which is a totally different thing. Also, the Berisha-Piperi-Kuci stuff only comes up as "recorded stories" in the late 19th century and even later. They're not part of "canonical" tradition. Berisha's "canonical" tradition has nothing about their traditional progenitor Kol Poga being an ancestor of Kuci or any member of his brotherhood being an ancestor of Kuci, nor does Old Kuci have anything about Berisha in their "canonical" tradition.

If you check the cadaster, as Injac Zamputi (the translator) writes, the scribe's mode of accounting was that he usually listed people who were native to a settlement with their patronymic and those who weren't with their tribe/brotherhood name as a surname. This form of accounting has been noted in Venetian registers throughout the region and is generally accepted by all as a form of marking relations networks.

Selami Pulaha takes it as 100% true that Pjeter Kuci is the first mentioned progenitor of the historical Kuci. In his "Contribution on the Formation of Albanian tribal system" (1975) he writes: "From the material that has been recorded it is evident that first of the community of Kuci, was Pjeter Kuci, head of a branch of an Albanian katun that is mentioned in Zeta already in 1330." In the face of archival records available, I think it holds true.
The thing that got me most confused about the story of relation between the Kuēi, Berisha and Piperi was that, as you mentioned, oral tradition from these tribes doesn't mention common ancestry. It seems to have been a narrative pushed mainly by others, or certain individuals from those tribes.

Was wondering if you were still planning on writing up the article on the Kelmendi?

Bruzmi
03-10-2020, 01:33 PM
Yes, I am, but I've got stuck in general cleanup in other articles.

In the meantime, in the other thread Exercitus posted a paper by Iljaz Rexha who found references about Burmazi and Mataruga in the defter of the sanjak of Herzegovina (after 1470). I used it to add some more info in the Burmazi article on wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmazi:

"In the defter of the Sanjak of Herzegovina which was established in 1470, Burmazi appears as distinct nahiye of 40 settlements (katun) in total.[5] The Ottoman conquest of Herzegovina saw a threefold demographic change in Burmazi. A part of the people converted to Islam and started to move in the newly formed Ottoman urban centres Bosnia. A larger part left the area and settled in the Dalmatian Hinterland in Šibenik and the village of Ogorje in Muć, in the island of Korčula and particularly the village of Vela Luka , in the village of Blata, in Makarska and in Kaštel in Istria. A later third wave of emigration occurred towards Serbia in the area of Vrnjacka Banja.[5]"

The paper itself has great archival information. https://www.academia.edu/16044391/SHTRIRJA_DHE_SLLAVIZIMI_I_VLLAZ%C3%8BRIVE_ALBANE_M ESJETARE_BURMAZI_DHE_MATARUGA_N%C3%8B_AREALIN_E_TR EK%C3%8BND%C3%8BSHIT_T%C3%8B_KUFIJVE_T%C3%8B_BOSNJ %C3%8BS_E_HERCEGOVIN%C3%8BS_MALIT_T%C3%8B_ZI_DHE_S ERBIS%C3%8B_SIPAS_DY_DEFTER%C3%8BVE_T%C3%8B_SANXHA KUT_T%C3%8B_HERCEGOVIN%C3%8BS_T%C3%8B_SHEK._XV_ He also explains how he found people with direct ancestry to Burmazi in various areas. It's really interesting and would be worth if they were contacted for Y DNA research.

Bruzmi
03-10-2020, 04:47 PM
Hey, I've come to realize that bibliography is rare to find (as we've discussed before). Therefore, we should all help each other. A seminal paper about this subject is: Selami Pulaha (1975), Kontribut pėr studimin e ngulitjes sė katuneve dhe krijimin e fiseve nė Shqipėrinė e veriut shekujt XV-XVI' [Contribution to the Study of Village Settlements and the Formation of the Tribes of Northern Albania in the 15th century], Studime Historike v.12. You cannot buy it online or in an actual bookshop. It is only available via snippet search on google books. I started a month ago a "mining" process (via search strings :P ) to get the full article. Here's a part in p. 79 about the "arbanas katun" mentioned in the Decani chrysobulls of 1330. It has a lot of interesting stuff about the beginnings of the Kuci tribe, headed by Pjeter Kuci, the Tuzi who became part of Gruda, the Bitidosi/Busadosi of later Triepshi and Kuci, the Bushati, but also about smaller tribes like Reci. I think this is the first time in archival records that a progenitor who gave his name to a village and later to a tribe is mentioned for many of these communities. It is also reflective of how historiography evolves, through new documents that become available etc. It's been a long way since the early days of J. G. von Hahn and Edith Durham towards modern anthropology of defters and records etc.

"Nė krye tė tyre pėrmendet Llesh Tuzi me djemtė dhe pastaj edhe tė tjerė si Gjon Bushati me Petrin e Gjinin , Petėr Suma , Matagushi dhe vėllezėrit , Reēi dhe tė bijtė , Petėr Kuēi dhe tė vėllezėrit , Lazori dhe tė tjera degė tė katunit , pėr tė cilat nuk mund tė ndjekim fatin e tyre nė periudhat e mėvonshme , meqenėse nė dokumentacion tė dhėnat pėr to janė tė varfra ose mungojnė krejtėsisht. Pėrveē kėtyre , nė krisobulė , kur bėhet fjalė pėr pronat qė i dhurohen Manastirit tė Deēanit nė fshatin e Kushevos pranė Koplikut pėrmenden edhe Pali e e Bushati me djem , Pal Busadosa etj . Tė dhėnat dokumentare tė periudhės sė mėvonshme japin mundėsi tė ndiqet zhvillimi i mėtejshėm i disa prej degėve tė katunit shqiptar . Le tė shohim konkretisht kėtė zhvillim nė shekujt XV - XVI , duke filluar me atė pjesė tė katunit qė pati si krye Llesh Tuzin . Nga krisobula e Deēanit kuptohet se barku i Llesh Tuzit pėrbėnte njė degė tė katunit shqiptar pėrderisa nė pėrbėrjen e kėtij pėrmenden edhe degė tė tjera si ato tė Matagushit , tė Gjon Bushatit , tė Petėr Sumės , tė Petėr Kuēit , tė Reēit , tė Busadosėve etj ., nga tė cilat kanė ardhur mė vonė Matagushėt , Bushatėt , Sumajt , Kuēasit , Bitadosėt , Lazorcėt, ashtu siē ardhėn edhe Tuzėt nga i pari i tyre Llesh Tuzi. Vendbanimi i vėlazėrisė tė krijuar nga barku i Llesh Tuzit si dhe i degėve tė tjera tė katunit shqiptar duhet tė kenė qenė trojet e Zetės dhe viset e saj kufitare me ultėsirėn e Shkodrės , meqenėse krisobula e Deēanit e pėrmend katunin shqiptar pranė Kushevos nė kufi me Koplikun dhe se pikėrisht nė kėtė zonė nė afėrsitė e Podgoricės gjejmė qysh nė fillimet e shek . XV tė pėrmendur fshatin e Tuzit. Mbajtja nga ana e kėtij fshati e emrit tė kryeparit tė vėllazėrisė nėnkupton se ky fshat duhet tė ketė qenė qendra e parė e ngulitjes sė vėllazėrisė sė Llesh Tuzit."

Kelmendasi
03-10-2020, 05:25 PM
Hey, I've come to realize that bibliography is rare to find (as we've discussed before). Therefore, we should all help each other. A seminal paper about this subject is: Selami Pulaha (1975), Kontribut pėr studimin e ngulitjes sė katuneve dhe krijimin e fiseve nė Shqipėrinė e veriut shekujt XV-XVI' [Contribution to the Study of Village Settlements and the Formation of the Tribes of Northern Albania in the 15th century], Studime Historike v.12. You cannot buy it online or in an actual bookshop. It is only available via snippet search on google books. I started a month ago a "mining" process (via search strings :P ) to get the full article. Here's a part in p. 79 about the "arbanas katun" mentioned in the Decani chrysobulls of 1330. It has a lot of interesting stuff about the beginnings of the Kuci tribe, headed by Pjeter Kuci, the Tuzi who became part of Gruda, the Bitidosi/Busadosi of later Triepshi and Kuci, the Bushati, but also about smaller tribes like Reci. I think this is the first time in archival records that a progenitor who gave his name to a village and later to a tribe is mentioned for many of these communities. It is also reflective of how historiography evolves, through new documents that become available etc. It's been a long way since the early days of J. G. von Hahn and Edith Durham towards modern anthropology of defters and records etc.

"Nė krye tė tyre pėrmendet Llesh Tuzi me djemtė dhe pastaj edhe tė tjerė si Gjon Bushati me Petrin e Gjinin , Petėr Suma , Matagushi dhe vėllezėrit , Reēi dhe tė bijtė , Petėr Kuēi dhe tė vėllezėrit , Lazori dhe tė tjera degė tė katunit , pėr tė cilat nuk mund tė ndjekim fatin e tyre nė periudhat e mėvonshme , meqenėse nė dokumentacion tė dhėnat pėr to janė tė varfra ose mungojnė krejtėsisht. Pėrveē kėtyre , nė krisobulė , kur bėhet fjalė pėr pronat qė i dhurohen Manastirit tė Deēanit nė fshatin e Kushevos pranė Koplikut pėrmenden edhe Pali e e Bushati me djem , Pal Busadosa etj . Tė dhėnat dokumentare tė periudhės sė mėvonshme japin mundėsi tė ndiqet zhvillimi i mėtejshėm i disa prej degėve tė katunit shqiptar . Le tė shohim konkretisht kėtė zhvillim nė shekujt XV - XVI , duke filluar me atė pjesė tė katunit qė pati si krye Llesh Tuzin . Nga krisobula e Deēanit kuptohet se barku i Llesh Tuzit pėrbėnte njė degė tė katunit shqiptar pėrderisa nė pėrbėrjen e kėtij pėrmenden edhe degė tė tjera si ato tė Matagushit , tė Gjon Bushatit , tė Petėr Sumės , tė Petėr Kuēit , tė Reēit , tė Busadosėve etj ., nga tė cilat kanė ardhur mė vonė Matagushėt , Bushatėt , Sumajt , Kuēasit , Bitadosėt , Lazorcėt, ashtu siē ardhėn edhe Tuzėt nga i pari i tyre Llesh Tuzi. Vendbanimi i vėlazėrisė tė krijuar nga barku i Llesh Tuzit si dhe i degėve tė tjera tė katunit shqiptar duhet tė kenė qenė trojet e Zetės dhe viset e saj kufitare me ultėsirėn e Shkodrės , meqenėse krisobula e Deēanit e pėrmend katunin shqiptar pranė Kushevos nė kufi me Koplikun dhe se pikėrisht nė kėtė zonė nė afėrsitė e Podgoricės gjejmė qysh nė fillimet e shek . XV tė pėrmendur fshatin e Tuzit. Mbajtja nga ana e kėtij fshati e emrit tė kryeparit tė vėllazėrisė nėnkupton se ky fshat duhet tė ketė qenė qendra e parė e ngulitjes sė vėllazėrisė sė Llesh Tuzit."
Yeah it is indeed very hard to find bibliography on this subject, especially bibliography that is not biased or chauvinistic in nature. You're doing a great job compiling all these sources and creating historically accurate articles on the tribes. I also saw your edits on the Kastrati and Bushati wiki pages which was great.

Is the Arbanas Katun mentioned in the chrysobulls of 1330 one community/village? If so then it would be interesting to think that all these tribes had ancestors that once lived in the same pastoral community. I find the Suma tribe of Postribė pretty interesting, oral traditions suggests that the tribe is heterogeneous in terms of origin with certain brotherhoods having different origins. For example the Gurra and Dajcė brotherhoods claim origin from a certain Dol Kuēi who arrived from the Kuēi of Malėsi. Then there are the brotherhoods that seem to be the natives such as the Bojaj, Pergjoni and Delaj (the three descending from 3 brothers; Boj Gjoni, Per Gjoni and Dedė Gjoni). I wonder if these are connected to Petėr Suma. 2 families hailing from Suma have tested, both have different haplogroups which makes sense given that one is from the Gurra whilst the other should be from the Bojaj. The family from Gurra tested as E-M81 whilst the family hailing from Bojaj as E-V13.

Johane Derite
03-11-2020, 12:05 PM
This can also be relevant. Iljaz Rexha is an osmanologist, that retranslated/transliterated many of the ottoman defters. Unofortunately his english is not so good, but he found many transliterations of names that were done by serbian scholars were often warped to fit more slavic forms. Albanians in Kosovo and south Serbia were also orthodox, and that we have names like "Vladislav" (slavic name) son of "Berisha" (Albanian tribe) or "Arbanas" (Albanian) show that Albanians living in this parts that were christian were taking slavic names also, complicating matters quite a bit.

https://www.academia.edu/36394428/INSTITUTI_OF_HISTORY_ALI_HADRI_-PRISHTINA_ILJAZ_REXHA_REGISTRATION_OF_SETTLEMENTS_ AND_ALBANIAN_POPULATION_OF_KOSOVO_According_to_the _Ottoman_defters_records_of_XV_century

Exercitus
03-11-2020, 12:56 PM
'Old but Gold', one of the masterpieces by Selami Pulaha."Popullsia Shqiptare e Kosoves Gjate Shekujve XV XVI"

Exercitus
03-11-2020, 12:57 PM
https://vdocuments.mx/179876370-s-pulaha-popullsia-shqiptare-e-kosoves-gjate-shekujve-xv-xvi.html

Exercitus
03-11-2020, 12:58 PM
https://vdocuments.mx/179876370-s-pulaha-popullsia-shqiptare-e-kosoves-gjate-shekujve-xv-xvi.html

https://it.scribd.com/doc/272970356/179876370-S-Pulaha-Popullsia-Shqiptare-e-Kosoves-Gjate-Shekujve-XV-XVI

Exercitus
03-11-2020, 01:02 PM
Also the recent Studies(Book) by Pr. Iljaz Rexha ; https://www.gazetaere.com/libri-vendbanimet-dhe-popullsia-albane-e-kosoves-recension/

Johane Derite
03-11-2020, 02:15 PM
Also the recent Studies(Book) by Pr. Iljaz Rexha ; https://www.gazetaere.com/libri-vendbanimet-dhe-popullsia-albane-e-kosoves-recension/

I have uploaded the map he made of all Albanian village names inthat book he found here in full resolution:

https://m.imgur.com/S8aVnQ0

Johane Derite
03-11-2020, 02:20 PM
I have uploaded the map he made of all Albanian village names inthat book he found here in full resolution:

https://m.imgur.com/S8aVnQ0

Here is a zoom in with Albanian churches marked out in south serbia (Sveti Gjinova, Manastiri Arnaut, etc). These seem to be gone now, and there is no information online about them, other than that they are mentioned in these defters:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECRY5dTW4AEkbsk?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Exercitus
03-11-2020, 04:01 PM
Well, beside that toponym Arbanaski Potok\Арбанашски поток (the brook of the Albanians, year 1253) that Toponym Rabanofc (Rabanovc) located in south of Podujeva\Besiana it's just, at least for me, much more meaningful !! The reason why; "Slavic liquid metathesis"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_liquid_metathesis_and_pleophony
a liguistic phenomena which stoped toward the half of the X century among the south Slavic Languages, so that toponym shows that the south-slavic people have met in that precise area the early mediaval Albanians !! That means that Bulgarians (X century) and later Serbs (XII century) when came in this region came in direct contact with the local paleo-balkanic Albanian-speakers (also Vlach- speakers)!!

Kelmendasi
03-11-2020, 04:37 PM
I have uploaded the map he made of all Albanian village names inthat book he found here in full resolution:

https://m.imgur.com/S8aVnQ0
I see that on the map a settlement called Burmaz is recorded and placed around Malėsi, near the border with the Pulti region. I wonder if this settlement can be connected to the Burmazi of Herzegovina.

Bruzmi
03-11-2020, 05:05 PM
I see that on the map a settlement called Burmaz is recorded and placed around Malėsi, near the border with the Pulti region. I wonder if this settlement can be connected to the Burmazi of Herzegovina.

It could probably be related but we need the exact year the settlement was attested. The Burmazi were in Herzegovina in 1348 and the nahiya of Burmazi with 40 villages comes in existence after 1470 there.

I'm reading "Prelė Milani (2011), Shoshi: gjeografia, gjenealogjia, historia". It's just an excellent book (I can mail it to anyone who wants to). Kelmendasi please delete some of your inbox messages, because I can't send you any new because it's full.

The "Arbanas katun" of Decani extended from Podgorica to near Koplik along lake Shkodra, so in modern terms it included much of Tuzi municipality and the areas where Kuēi and Reēi of 1416 were. I think this Albanian katund was a community of many brotherhoods that later grew big enough to become tribes. I find the differences in terminology interesting too. "Bashkėsi" is basically a fis minus the territory, while a "Fis" is kinship relations + territory.

Kelmendasi
03-11-2020, 05:15 PM
I'm reading "Prelė Milani (2011), Shoshi: gjeografia, gjenealogjia, historia". It's just an excellent book (I can mail it to anyone who wants to). Kelmendasi please delete some of your inbox messages, because I can't send you any new because it's full.
Shoshi too is an interesting tribe, especially now that 2 families (one with origin from Likaj, and the other from Brashta) have tested and are shown to be unrelated to the Shala and Mirdita (Kushneni, Oroshi and Spaēi). They are E-Z19851, whilst the Shala are primarily R-Y168201 and the Mirdita (Kushneni, Oroshi and Spaēi) J-Y85522.

I had come across this publication on the Shoshi quite some time ago https://issuu.com/lufastudio/docs/shoshi, It provides some great info on the brotherhoods of Shoshi and where they are located. Also gives info on other things such as the geography of the region.

I have cleared my inbox.

Edit: I believe the link I have posted is a link to the book that you are talking about Shoshi: gjeografia, gjenealogjia, historia

J Man
03-11-2020, 06:10 PM
Shoshi too is an interesting tribe, especially now that 2 families (one with origin from Likaj, and the other from Brashta) have tested and are shown to be unrelated to the Shala and Mirdita (Kushneni, Oroshi and Spaēi). They are E-Z19851, whilst the Shala are primarily R-Y168201 and the Mirdita J-Y85522.

I had come across this publication on the Shoshi quite some time ago https://issuu.com/lufastudio/docs/shoshi, It provides some great info on the brotherhoods of Shoshi and where they are located. Also gives info on other things such as the geography of the region.

I have cleared my inbox.

Edit: I believe the link I have posted is a link to the book that you are talking about Shoshi: gjeografia, gjenealogjia, historia

Isn't Mirdita more of a tribal region rather than a single tribe? I thought that Mirdita was made up of a number of tribes such as Fani, Oroshi, Spaci etc.?

Kelmendasi
03-11-2020, 06:15 PM
Isn't Mirdita more of a tribal region rather than a single tribe? I thought that Mirdita was made up of a number of tribes such as Fani, Oroshi, Spaci etc.?
Well yes, but it depends on the context. Mirditė is a tribal region that includes a number of tribes, however the name of the region is derived from the name of an individual called Mir Diti. He was the legendary ancestor of the Oroshi, Kushneni and Spaēi tribes, and so when I referred to Mirdita I was referring to those 3 tribes as they are in a sense the "true" Mirdita, all of whom share the same Y-DNA which confirms a shared paternal ancestry. Though there are also tribes within the larger region of Mirditė that share no connection to the others, for example the Dibrri and Fani.

J Man
03-11-2020, 06:37 PM
Well yes, but it depends on the context. Mirditė is a tribal region that includes a number of tribes, however the name of the region is derived from the name of an individual called Mir Diti. He was the legendary ancestor of the Oroshi, Kushneni and Spaēi tribes, and so when I referred to Mirdita I was referring to those 3 tribes as they are in a sense the "true" Mirdita, all of whom share the same Y-DNA which confirms a shared paternal ancestry. Though there are also tribes within the larger region of Mirditė that share no connection to the others, for example the Dibrri and Fani.

That makes sense thanks. I am quite interested in the origins of the families from the village of Shengjin in Fane Mirdite. From what I have read it appears that the majority of the ancestors of the people from Shengjin arrived there only during the 18th century from somewhere to the north or east.

Kelmendasi
03-11-2020, 07:18 PM
That makes sense thanks. I am quite interested in the origins of the families from the village of Shengjin in Fane Mirdite. From what I have read it appears that the majority of the ancestors of the people from Shengjin arrived there only during the 18th century from somewhere to the north or east.
From what I have read, it is believed that Shengjin was first settled by a man called Gjin who was believed to have fled to Fan during the 18th Century from Dukagjin. He met a man from the village of Xhuxhė who led him to what would become Shengjin. Gjin ended up having four sons; Noka, Boēi, Ēeēi and Ndreu. From which the brotherhoods of Shengjin stem.

However, it is also believed that a smaller tribe or fis called the Bushati had been living in the village before the arrival of Gjin. They supposedly arrived from Xhuxhė and apparently had not set up marital connections with the brotherhoods descending from Gjin.

Keqa
03-11-2020, 07:45 PM
Shengjin seem to be heterogenous. Just saw on 23andme that a Nokaj fella is V13, so not related to Bocaj. He should be a relative of Zefi i Vogel.


BTW there is also a Z2705 fella from Sume.

J Man
03-11-2020, 08:33 PM
Shengjin seem to be heterogenous. Just saw on 23andme that a Nokaj fella is V13, so not related to Bocaj. He should be a relative of Zefi i Vogel.


BTW there is also a Z2705 fella from Sume.

Interesting....There is a J2a result from Shengjin as well from another brotherhood that is supposed to be related to Nokaj.

Kelmendasi
03-11-2020, 08:41 PM
Interesting....There is a J2a result from Shengjin as well from another brotherhood that is supposed to be related to Nokaj.
Yeah he was the J-L70 sample if I recall correctly. I'm pretty sure he was from the Boēi/Boēaj brotherhood.

J Man
03-12-2020, 12:31 AM
Yeah he was the J-L70 sample if I recall correctly. I'm pretty sure he was from the Boēi/Boēaj brotherhood.

Yeah his surname is Boci.

Bruzmi
03-12-2020, 12:51 AM
One of the first available online papers about the defter of the sanjak of Dukagjin in 1571-1591 published in March 2019 https://albanon.org/index.php/albanon/article/view/102

Johane Derite
03-12-2020, 05:39 PM
Well yes, but it depends on the context. Mirditė is a tribal region that includes a number of tribes, however the name of the region is derived from the name of an individual called Mir Diti. He was the legendary ancestor of the Oroshi, Kushneni and Spaēi tribes, and so when I referred to Mirdita I was referring to those 3 tribes as they are in a sense the "true" Mirdita, all of whom share the same Y-DNA which confirms a shared paternal ancestry. Though there are also tribes within the larger region of Mirditė that share no connection to the others, for example the Dibrri and Fani.

Mir Diti must be a variant of Murr Dedi. This Murr Dedi guy seems to have left quite a mark on the Albanian tribal history, but there is absolutely no information about him in european historiography. He cannot have left such a mark on the tribal memory without having been important and consequential. If he was consequential we should hope to find him mentioned elsewhere, maybe he had another name or something.

"Po tė pyesim ēdo plak nga Mirdita, tė tregon si babė tė parė tė pėrbashkėt pėr tė gjithė Mirditėn njė farė «Murr Dedi»; po ashtu pleqtė e bajrakėve tė Ohrit njohin tė parė tė tyne «Murr Dedin»; etj etj "

Sipas traditės gojore origjina e fiseve tė Shalės, tė Shoshit, tė Mėrturit, tė Berishės, tė Mirditės del tek njė i parė legjendar i quajtur Murr Dedi."

Kelmendasi
03-12-2020, 06:02 PM
Mir Diti must be a variant of Murr Dedi. This Murr Dedi guy seems to have left quite a mark on the Albanian tribal history, but there is absolutely no information about him in european historiography. He cannot have left such a mark on the tribal memory without having been important and consequential. If he was consequential we should hope to find him mentioned elsewhere, maybe he had another name or something.

"Po tė pyesim ēdo plak nga Mirdita, tė tregon si babė tė parė tė pėrbashkėt pėr tė gjithė Mirditėn njė farė «Murr Dedi»; po ashtu pleqtė e bajrakėve tė Ohrit njohin tė parė tė tyne «Murr Dedin»; etj etj "

Sipas traditės gojore origjina e fiseve tė Shalės, tė Shoshit, tė Mėrturit, tė Berishės, tė Mirditės del tek njė i parė legjendar i quajtur Murr Dedi."
Well, in the oral traditions of the Shoshi, Shala and Mirdita (Spaēi, Kushneni and Oroshi; referred to as "bajrakėve tė Ohrit" in that quote) Murr Dedi was the grandfather of their founding fathers. The three tribes all hail from Dit Murri, the son of Murr Dedi, who had three sons; Zog Diti (progenitor of the Shala), Mark Diti (progenitor of the Shoshi), and Mir Diti (progenitor of the Mirdita).

Berisha is related to these tribes through their supposed ancestor, Kol Poga. Kol Poga was the son of Pog Murri, who in turn was brother to Dit Murri and son to Murr Dedi. Should also mention that Pog Murri also had another son named Lekė Poga, who would go on to found the Mėrturi tribe. Y-DNA has actually confirmed that the Berisha and Mėrturi stem from the same paternal ancestor as both are E-Y93102+.

Bruzmi
03-12-2020, 11:42 PM
Hey all! So, in many of the more detailed monographs about tribes, we find that the "anas" brotherhoods are not unnamed or that much unknown as outdated material like Edith Durham a century ago recorded. They were proper tribes and their descendants actually form part of the brotherhoods of some villages today. An article about one of those tribes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prekali

J Man
03-18-2020, 05:25 AM
Shengjin seem to be heterogenous. Just saw on 23andme that a Nokaj fella is V13, so not related to Bocaj. He should be a relative of Zefi i Vogel.


BTW there is also a Z2705 fella from Sume.

Is the E-V13 Nokaj guy on 23andme confirmed be from Shengjin?

Keqa
03-18-2020, 10:05 PM
Is the E-V13 Nokaj guy on 23andme confirmed be from Shengjin?

Yes, he is from Gjakove but they came there few hundred years ago from Shengjin. He is a relative of this guy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zef_Kol_Ndoka

Bruzmi
03-19-2020, 01:02 AM
Mir Diti must be a variant of Murr Dedi. This Murr Dedi guy seems to have left quite a mark on the Albanian tribal history, but there is absolutely no information about him in european historiography. He cannot have left such a mark on the tribal memory without having been important and consequential. If he was consequential we should hope to find him mentioned elsewhere, maybe he had another name or something.

"Po tė pyesim ēdo plak nga Mirdita, tė tregon si babė tė parė tė pėrbashkėt pėr tė gjithė Mirditėn njė farė «Murr Dedi»; po ashtu pleqtė e bajrakėve tė Ohrit njohin tė parė tė tyne «Murr Dedin»; etj etj "

Sipas traditės gojore origjina e fiseve tė Shalės, tė Shoshit, tė Mėrturit, tė Berishės, tė Mirditės del tek njė i parė legjendar i quajtur Murr Dedi."

That quote is from Rrok Zojzi (1962), Etnografia Shqiptare. What he's explaining in this chapter is that the figure of Murr Dedi is a symbolic figure, not a historical one. It symbolizes the fact that the tribes of Leknia (Old Dukagjin) and Dukagjin Highlands have the same historical origin and collective memory of coming to their areas from the east i.e. from Rrafshi i Dukagjinit/Western Kosovo/Metohia field. They have this memory in contrast a) to Malesia whose collective memory is that they came from the north b) to Gegnia who are Albanians who already lived there when these tribes came. Another point as an addition to b): the tribes of southern Albania just south of Gegnia have the same collective story with Gegnia. That entire paper of Rrok Zojzi is very interesting. I''ve uploaded the whole page for those who want to read it.


36870

Johane Derite
03-19-2020, 01:06 AM
That quote is from Rrok Zojzi (1962), Etnografia Shqiptare. What he's explaining in this chapter is that the figure of Murr Dedi is a symbolic figure, not a historical one. It symbolizes the fact that the tribes of Leknia (Old Dukagjin) and Dukagjin Highlands have the same historical origin and collective memory of coming to their areas from the east i.e. from Rrafshi i Dukagjinit/Western Kosovo/Metohia field. They have this memory in contrast a) to Malesia whose collective memory is that they came from the north b) to Gegnia who are Albanians who already lived there when these tribes came. Another point as an addition to b): the tribes of southern Albania just south of Gegnia have the same collective story with Gegnia. That entire paper of Rrok Zojzi is very interesting. I''ve uploaded the whole page for who want to read it.


36870

Thanks alot for this, i only could find snippets of it on Google books. Do you have the full pdf? I would really love to know more about this Murr Dedi

Kelmendasi
03-19-2020, 04:15 PM
Thanks alot for this, i only could find snippets of it on Google books. Do you have the full pdf? I would really love to know more about this Murr Dedi
The full text is on this pdf http://www.bibliotekashkoder.com/doc/gegnia_6.pdf

Johane Derite
03-19-2020, 04:49 PM
The full text is on this pdf http://www.bibliotekashkoder.com/doc/gegnia_6.pdf

Thanks a lot Kelmendasi, this is really helpful.

I would still love the etnografia shqiptare as this seems to be missing parts. For example at least least two paragraphs on that page from maleschreiber are not in this Gegnia article.

Kelmendasi
03-19-2020, 04:54 PM
Thanks a lot Kelmendasi, this is really helpful.

I would still love the etnografia shqiptare as this seems to be missing parts. For example at least least two paragraphs on that page from maleschreiber are not in this Gegnia article.
Which paragraphs are missing? I tried searching for more pdfs of this text but can't seem to find any.

Johane Derite
03-19-2020, 05:34 PM
Which paragraphs are missing? I tried searching for more pdfs of this text but can't seem to find any.

Paragraph 2&3 from the screenshot are not in the Gegnia. They have probably just been edited, and changed around, but maybe some inportant detail is lost in the meantime

Kelmendasi
03-19-2020, 05:47 PM
Paragraph 2&3 from the screenshot are not in the Gegnia. They have probably just been edited, and changed around, but maybe some inportant detail is lost in the meantime
Yes I see, not too sure why the paragraphs are missing. Perhaps there was word limit or something, requiring the editors to remove the paragraphs.

Bruzmi
03-19-2020, 11:57 PM
So, they've taken a part of the first chapter of Etnologjia Shqiptare v. I (1962) and they've published it in two parts. This chapter was written by Rrok Zojzi. The Gegnia republication of this section is about 14 pages long and the original is about 24 pages (but the maps are in a much better resolution, so the real difference in content is probably less than 10 pages). I can't check right now what is the exta original content, but I'm emailing to all of you the full scan of Etnografia Shqiptare I. Maybe it can be uploaded to become easier to find in the future.

trdbr1234
03-26-2020, 02:19 PM
The full text is on this pdf http://www.bibliotekashkoder.com/doc/gegnia_6.pdf

Interesting read. I found this snippet interesting. I wonder, is the base population of the Golloborde region is of a Macedonian-Bulgarian base population? If so, why would they be considered anas and not have any known origin. I also find it odd that this region has always been within the Albanian principalities. If they had a Macedonian-Bulgarian base population, then why are they always included within the Albanian principalities?

As always, I am always interested about this region and if anyone wants to share, I would be greatly appreciative.

Mbi territorin e Maleve tė Gegėve ose tė Gegnisė nė mesjetė
shtrihej principata e Arbnit. Familja e Topiajve, me ndeje nė
Krue, mbante titullin “Principes Albanie”, “Gospodin Rabanski”,
”Dominus Albanie“ etj.*)*
Ma vonė kėtė principatė me titullin e saj
trashėgoi familja e Kastriotėve, e cila e mbajti deri mė pushtimin
turk. Pas rrimarrjes se fuqisė nga Kastriotėt, del rishtas principata
e Arbėrit me Skanderbegun si princ tė saj. Me pushtimin e ri
nga turqit zhduket kjo principatė pėr tė mos u pėrmendė ma.
Kujtimi i saj ka ngelė vetėm nė administratėn kishtare “Chiesa
Albanese”, e cila vazhdon edhe pėr disa shekuj ma vonė, dhe nė
popullin e saj qė vazhdon tė thirret “arbnesh” dhe pėr disa kohė.
Nga tė dhenat historike shohim se principata e Arbinit nėn
Kastriotėt shtrihej mes Shkumbinit dhe kthesės nga perėndimi tė
lumit Mat dhe se kjo pėrputhej plotėsisht me grupin e krahinave
etnografike tė Gegnisė ose Maleve tė Gegnisė.
Popullsia e Gegenisė pėrbahet edhe prej mjaft tė ardhunve, por
*) Sufflay, M. “Serbėt dhe Shqiptarėt”, f.40
11
numri i tyne pak a shumė balancohet edhe me anas tė vjetėr ose
autoktonė. Anas ku ma pak e ku ma shumė kemi nė ēdo fshat.
Si anas mbahet edhe krahina bullgaro-maqedone qė gjėndet
nė Gollobordė e cila nuk njeh prejardhje tė veten dhe e quen
vehten autoktone. Tė ardhunit nė pjesėn ma tė madhe janė nga
Leknia ose Dukagjini, i cili ndikoi shumė nė traditat e krahinės;
nė numėr shumė tė kufizuem pat edhe tė ardhun nga Malėsia;
ndėrsa ardhjet nga jugu, Tosknia ose Myzeqeja mungojnė fare.

Bruzmi
03-27-2020, 02:02 PM
The full quote from Rrok Zojzi is "Si anas mbahet edhe krahina bullgaro-maqedone qė gjėndet nė Gollobordė e cila nuk njeh prejardhje tė veten dhe e quen vehten autoktone." What he's saying is that Slavic-speaking villages of Golloborda (about 10 in number) recognize no origin from some other area.

To me that means that their ancestors were in the region at least by 1200. The base population is a very difficult to find (except for mass sampling of Y DNA research) because the names of the villages hint at an older Albanian Orthodox substrate like in Upper Reka that was until very recently Albanian-speaking. For example, the village of Gjinovec has an obvious Albanian Christian etymology but it was Slavic-speaking and Muslim. In the 19th century, it was half-Orthodox and half-Muslim.

It's very difficult to come up with genealogies *without Y DNA mass sampling* when there is separation of mother tongue, ethnicity and self-definition. I mean, I would never think of Mateja Matevski, a very well-known Macedonian poet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mateja_Matevski as "Albanian Orthodox" until he said so in an interview.

Kelmendasi
03-27-2020, 02:17 PM
The full quote from Rrok Zojzi is "Si anas mbahet edhe krahina bullgaro-maqedone qė gjėndet nė Gollobordė e cila nuk njeh prejardhje tė veten dhe e quen vehten autoktone." What he's saying is that Slavic-speaking villages of Golloborda (about 10 in number) recognize no origin from some other area.

To me that means that their ancestors were in the region at least by 1200. The base population is a very difficult to find (except for mass sampling of Y DNA research) because the names of the villages hint at an older Albanian Orthodox substrate like in Upper Reka that was until very recently Albanian-speaking. For example, the village of Gjinovec has an obvious Albanian Christian etymology but it was Slavic-speaking and Muslim. In the 19th century, it was half-Orthodox and half-Muslim.

It's very difficult to come up with genealogies *without Y DNA mass sampling* when there is separation of mother tongue, ethnicity and self-definition. I mean, I would never think of Mateja Matevski, a very well-known Macedonian poet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mateja_Matevski as "Albanian Orthodox" until he said so in an interview.
We also see that in the defters that there was a clear presence of Albanian anthroponyms in the area. In certain villages we also see that some names were being Slavicised; for example in the village of Borovė (today fully Albanian-speaking and Muslim) there was a certain Todec Mjekrimadhoviqi, his last name clearly being a Slavicised version of mjekėr-madhi (big-beard).

As for Y-DNA, I won't mention any specific haplogroups and villages as I do not believe that the results are public, it seems that the region overwhelmingly belongs to haplogroups typical of Albanians so far.

Keqa
03-27-2020, 07:26 PM
We already have typical slavic linages appear there. Region does seem mixed. Albanian fis/families did intermingle with the slavic speaking community there.

trdbr1234
03-27-2020, 11:16 PM
The full quote from Rrok Zojzi is "Si anas mbahet edhe krahina bullgaro-maqedone qė gjėndet nė Gollobordė e cila nuk njeh prejardhje tė veten dhe e quen vehten autoktone." What he's saying is that Slavic-speaking villages of Golloborda (about 10 in number) recognize no origin from some other area.

To me that means that their ancestors were in the region at least by 1200. The base population is a very difficult to find (except for mass sampling of Y DNA research) because the names of the villages hint at an older Albanian Orthodox substrate like in Upper Reka that was until very recently Albanian-speaking. For example, the village of Gjinovec has an obvious Albanian Christian etymology but it was Slavic-speaking and Muslim. In the 19th century, it was half-Orthodox and half-Muslim.

It's very difficult to come up with genealogies *without Y DNA mass sampling* when there is separation of mother tongue, ethnicity and self-definition. I mean, I would never think of Mateja Matevski, a very well-known Macedonian poet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mateja_Matevski as "Albanian Orthodox" until he said so in an interview.

Thanks Maleschreiber. I originate from Golloborde. That is why it interests me. I can confirm that we have no known origin outside of the area. Not even a myth or story.

I would like to correct you. Gjinovec is a mixed Orthodox-Muslim village even today. There are 42 villages in Golloborde region. Majority has a Macedonian tongue, while minority Albanian. Although the last distinction is academic as the "Albanian speaking" had and still has some recognition of Macedonian-Bullgarian, as does the"Macedonian speaking" side speak Albanian as well. It is interesting that they only married each-other until only a few decades ago.

What I always found interesting is that among the Orthodox community of Golloborde, which I am a part of, we still use names as Gjergj, Gjon etc. What I find interesting is that even the names rooted in Orthodox Christianity, they follow the Albanian standard. As an example, Andrea, Petro, Pirro, etc. There are ofcourse names that are associated with Macedonia more, such as Mitro, Milan, etc. I also find interesting the frequency of -aj surnames and lack of -ski -vic or -ov. As far as I understand, the -ski was added fairly late to Macedonian surnames? I am uncertain if this is true.

What is your opinion on this?

trdbr1234
03-27-2020, 11:18 PM
We also see that in the defters that there was a clear presence of Albanian anthroponyms in the area. In certain villages we also see that some names were being Slavicised; for example in the village of Borovė (today fully Albanian-speaking and Muslim) there was a certain Todec Mjekrimadhoviqi, his last name clearly being a Slavicised version of mjekėr-madhi (big-beard).

As for Y-DNA, I won't mention any specific haplogroups and villages as I do not believe that the results are public, it seems that the region overwhelmingly belongs to haplogroups typical of Albanians so far.

Do you mind sharing what you can? If you absolutely can't, can you show me privately?

Bruzmi
03-28-2020, 12:08 AM
Thanks Maleschreiber. I originate from Golloborde. That is why it interests me. I can confirm that we have no known origin outside of the area. Not even a myth or story.

I would like to correct you. Gjinovec is a mixed Orthodox-Muslim village even today. There are 42 villages in Golloborde region. Majority has a Macedonian tongue, while minority Albanian. Although the last distinction is academic as the "Albanian speaking" had and still has some recognition of Macedonian-Bullgarian, as does the"Macedonian speaking" side speak Albanian as well. It is interesting that they only married each-other until only a few decades ago.

What I always found interesting is that among the Orthodox community of Golloborde, which I am a part of, we still use names as Gjergj, Gjon etc. What I find interesting is that even the names rooted in Orthodox Christianity, they follow the Albanian standard. As an example, Andrea, Petro, Pirro, etc. There are ofcourse names that are associated with Macedonia more, such as Mitro, Milan, etc. I also find interesting the frequency of -aj surnames and lack of -ski -vic or -ov. As far as I understand, the -ski was added fairly late to Macedonian surnames? I am uncertain if this is true.

What is your opinion on this?

Yeah, the -ski was generalized in Macedonia after 1945 with surname changes etc. Until then it was the suffix surnames in Pelagonia (Prilep etc) used, but it became the standard form of the language so it was generalized.

Very interesting! Is there any book online that you could recommend?

trdbr1234
03-28-2020, 12:28 AM
Yeah, the -ski was generalized in Macedonia after 1945 with surname changes etc. Until then it was the suffix surnames in Pelagonia (Prilep etc) used, but it became the standard form of the language so it was generalized.

Very interesting! Is there any book online that you could recommend?

Well, Historia e Dibres - Kristo Frasheri is probably the most academic, as it deals with it out of necessity.

There are other books which may include personalized opinions.

The best would probably be “Visare tė Gollobordės” - Mehmet Hasani, whom takes an Albanistic approach. - Though not sure where to find this online.

There is a new book by Russian Albanolog Aleksandėr Novik, titled "Ekspedita nė Gollobordė tė Shqipėrisė" - Though I am not sure where to find this either.

Keqa
03-28-2020, 01:07 AM
Only in ten villages the Macedonian/Slavic language is still spoken. 42 villages? Are you talking about all of Bulqize? lol

Kelmendasi
03-28-2020, 01:14 AM
Well, Historia e Dibres - Kristo Frasheri is probably the most academic, as it deals with it out of necessity.

There are other books which may include personalized opinions.

The best would probably be “Visare tė Gollobordės” - Mehmet Hasani, whom takes an Albanistic approach. - Though not sure where to find this online.

There is a new book by Russian Albanolog Aleksandėr Novik, titled "Ekspedita nė Gollobordė tė Shqipėrisė" - Though I am not sure where to find this either.
Have you read Gollobordasit e Dibrës: vështrim etnokulturor by Hilmi Sadikaj? I will try to get my hands on this book, I found it on this site https://www.botimpex.com/index.php?p=liber&l=2066.

I read an article by him on the village of Stėbleva and its families http://shoqatastebleva.al/Gazeta/stebleva%2037.pdf. He states that there was a movement of Catholic Albanians from other regions such as Martanesh, Ēermenika, Macukull etc, into Golloborda and Stėbleva. He then claims that these families converted to the Orthodox faith in order to resist conversion to Islam (I guess he made this claim as most Christians of the region were Orthodox).

The claim of a movement from Ēermenikė is historically accurate as the defter of 1467 records many individuals carrying the surname Ēermenika in a number of villages in the region. There are also some who are recorded as having been new arrivals from the region, such as Nikolla and his son Dimitri from Ēermenika in the village of Drestila (not sure where this village is located, however it was part of the same timar as Zabzun and Klenjė).

trdbr1234
03-28-2020, 05:42 AM
Have you read Gollobordasit e Dibrës: vështrim etnokulturor by Hilmi Sadikaj? I will try to get my hands on this book, I found it on this site https://www.botimpex.com/index.php?p=liber&l=2066.

I read an article by him on the village of Stėbleva and its families http://shoqatastebleva.al/Gazeta/stebleva%2037.pdf. He states that there was a movement of Catholic Albanians from other regions such as Martanesh, Ēermenika, Macukull etc, into Golloborda and Stėbleva. He then claims that these families converted to the Orthodox faith in order to resist conversion to Islam (I guess he made this claim as most Christians of the region were Orthodox).

The claim of a movement from Ēermenikė is historically accurate as the defter of 1467 records many individuals carrying the surname Ēermenika in a number of villages in the region. There are also some who are recorded as having been new arrivals from the region, such as Nikolla and his son Dimitri from Ēermenika in the village of Drestila (not sure where this village is located, however it was part of the same timar as Zabzun and Klenjė).

I do not believe there ever existed any mass movement of people from Carmenik or Martanesh into the region. There has always been movements of people of-course as is natural everywhere. Even the presence of Carmenika surname in the defter you are referring to, indicates that inhabitants from Carmenika were not common, otherwise there wouldn't be a need to have that last name. I also understand there is a fable that certain parts of the region may be from Martanesh. As far as I know, movement of people went from Golloborde into Martanesh and Mati and not the other way around, as can be seen by certain surnames in these region have clear origins from Golloborde. This is not to say there weren't instances when it occurred both directions. There are attempts to disenfranchise the region and I believe these stories of movements of other people into Golloborde are an attempt at that. I dont believe they ever happened and I believe they are a modern creation. I am open to any fact based approach to the contrary but I have so far not seen any factual proof of that ever happening. I would say the opposite is more likely.

Thank for the recommendation. I will try to buy it because I think it will be an interesting read.

I have found the Stebleva site to be very informative. It is unfortunate they are no longer updating it.

Exercitus
03-28-2020, 10:36 AM
Hello,

Can i ask you all a small favor, does there exist any Book(Translation of the Defters, XV & XVI centuries) where are listed all the Anthroponyms of the Inhabitants of Dibra(Debar Gorni & Dolno), Golloborda(Golo Brdo), Reka, Ohrid etc ??

I mean does any of this books below contain such detailed lists ?!

1) "Defteri i Hollėsishėm pėr Zonat e Dibrės i Vitit 1467" E. Caka (translation from Vexhi Buharaja)
2) "Dibra ne defteret osmane (1467, 1583)" Vol.1 | Zyber Gjoni ; Haki Pernezha
3) "Dibra dhe Koxhaxhiku nė kohėn e Sėnderbeut " Kasem Bicoku


I have find randomly few materials, but i want to check concretely the Anthroponyms\Patronyms in each Village, so doing, maybe we could have much more clear ideas concerning the Ethnic-Demographic composition(e.g. like in the case of Demir Hisar region !!) of the above mentioned areas !!

Exercitus
03-28-2020, 10:43 AM
About GolloBorda's Vojnuk\Timarlis (the majority are locals) ethnicity, from Oliver Jens Schmitt, based on the Studies of A. Stojanovski in "Turski Dokument.."

36978

Exercitus
03-28-2020, 10:56 AM
Also few things about Lower Reka (Dolna Reka region), knowing that the Upper Reka had a dominant Orthodox Albanian-speaking population;

- Selo Trebište;(Village Trebishte)
Takođe je zabeleženo u popisnom defteru iz 1467. u vilajetu Reka. I ovo selo je imalo petnaest porodica a davalo je prihod od 1722 akče. Starešine porodica su bili: pop Bogoslav, Radič (ili Radica) Ivančević, Radič Bukurović, njegov brat Todor, Miladin brat spomenutog, Volče Bukurović, Rajčin Bukurović, Mirko Stanislav, Stajko Macanović, Staniša Tanušević, Rale Đurović, Kale brat spomenutog, Vlaš Jovanović, Petar Stanislav, Lazar Macanović.

- Selo Radostuše;(Village Radostusha)
Tako saznajemo da je svega četrdeset godina posle izdavanja dokumenta Ivana Kastriota u selu živelo petnaest porodica sa ukupnim zaduženjem od 1.530 akči. Starešine domaćinstava tada su bili: Staniša Đurković, Stepan Đurković, Nenče Koklar, Tošan Koklar, pop Petar, Nenče Plaše, Nikola Kovač, Bojčin sin Rajin, pop V'lkota, Đuro Kovač, Đore Kirak, Staniša Vladislav, njegov brat Todor, Đuro jedinac Todorov, Dragija sin Bojčina.
(from Rastko Projekt Shkoder\Skadar: Душан Синдик Две повеље у Хиландару о Ивану Кастриоту и синовима)

- Vilajeti i Rekės sė Dibrės:
Petar Arbanas, Dimitri Arbanas /fsh. Pristojnicė TD III 294/, Petko Arbanas, Pavle Arbanas/fsh. Bitushė TD III 393/, Tanush Arbanas/fsh. Zirklan TD III 369/ 36979
(from Qemal Murati "ALBANĖSIA E “PROVINCAVE ONOMASTIKE” NĖ AREALIN E MAQEDONISĖ – DĖSHMI E AUTOKTONISĖ SĖ SHQIPTARĖVE NĖ KĖTO VISE QĖ NGA PERIODA ANTIKE E DERI SOT")

Exercitus
03-28-2020, 11:07 AM
Now this is precisely the reason why i need to know the names in each Village, the Ethnicity of the population in those areas in the basis of Defter data's, has become a serious object of Speculations(from both parts actually!!), just to concretize a little bit;


From "Siedlungsverhältnisse im makedonisch-albanischen Grenzgebiet im 15. und 16. Jahrhundert (nach osmanischen Quellen)" by Dragi Gjorgiev;

The Slavic element dominated in the ethnic structure of the Christians on the territory of the entire kaza Ohrid or in the three nahiye Ohrid, Debarca(Dibra) and Prespa... Albanian and Vlachic ethnos can only be found in the nahiya Ohrid in border villages with Albania, such as Borovec(M), Oktisi(M), Hlin(AL), Mumlišta(AL), Lavtarce(?). There are names of heads of Christian families and patronymes such as Gjin, Gjon, Vlah, Šula, Gjon Šula, Gjon Leko, Martin Gjon, Kola Gjon, Jovan Gjon, Šula Cvetko, Šula Pise, Šula Petko.

Based on the examination of first names in the kaza Starova it can be seen that the Albanian population predominated. The Slavic population lived in the villages on the mountains west of Lake Ohrid, such as Mali Vlah, Červenak, Vraka, Kondodeš (Kotodesh, AL), Rodokal(AL), but also in some villages on the territory of Albania, such as Stranik, Golemo Čeţme, Lanka.

The Slavic element predominated east of the center of kaza Starov, on what is now Macedonian territory in the villages of Zagoričani, Zervaska, Peškopija, but it can also be found west of Starova, in the territory of Albania, in the villages of Strelkovo, Veličani, Desimir.

Exercitus
03-28-2020, 11:32 AM
Village Stablevė\Sterbleve year 1467
Timarli: Ali Uzguri\Zguri

Kojo Porteviri, Petro Gjonko (Gjoneko) , Martin
Petro Gjonko, Miho Pishtaj, Gjon Mahinovi, Bogiē
Mahinovi, Vasil Nikolla, Bogdo Jerakari, Kolė
Vlladini, Stanec Vlladini, Simko Ēermenika, Vaskė
Gjoneko...

it's simple ...it was a Albanian-speaking Orthodox Slavic Village !!!

Aspar
03-28-2020, 12:53 PM
Village Stablevė\Sterbleve year 1467
Timarli: Ali Uzguri\Zguri

Kojo Porteviri, Petro Gjonko (Gjoneko) , Martin
Petro Gjonko, Miho Pishtaj, Gjon Mahinovi, Bogiē
Mahinovi, Vasil Nikolla, Bogdo Jerakari, Kolė
Vlladini, Stanec Vlladini, Simko Ēermenika, Vaskė
Gjoneko...

it's simple ...it was a Albanian-speaking Orthodox Slavic Village !!!

Quite interesting...
Do you know by chance where can I find such informations about the Korca and Gramosh regions of Albania?

Exercitus
03-28-2020, 01:17 PM
- Населението во македонско-албанскиот граничен појас (15-16 в.), ИНИ, Скопје, 2009

- Turski dokumenti za istorijata na makedonskiot narod: kn. 1-2. Opširen popisen defter na ohridskiot sandžak od 1583 godina etc

I am looking also, but till now nothing, i cant go personally in Skopje, North Macedonia to buy them (at least not now!!), so if you find anything please let me know !!

Kelmendasi
03-28-2020, 02:27 PM
Hello,

Can i ask you all a small favor, does there exist any Book(Translation of the Defters, XV & XVI centuries) where are listed all the Anthroponyms of the Inhabitants of Dibra(Debar Gorni & Dolno), Golloborda(Golo Brdo), Reka, Ohrid etc ??

I mean does any of this books below contain such detailed lists ?!

1) "Defteri i Hollƫsishƫm pƫr Zonat e Dibrƫs i Vitit 1467" E. Caka (translation from Vexhi Buharaja)
2) "Dibra ne defteret osmane (1467, 1583)" Vol.1 | Zyber Gjoni ; Haki Pernezha
3) "Dibra dhe Koxhaxhiku nƫ kohƫn e Sƫnderbeut " Kasem Bicoku


I have find randomly few materials, but i want to check concretely the Anthroponyms\Patronyms in each Village, so doing, maybe we could have much more clear ideas concerning the Ethnic-Demographic composition(e.g. like in the case of Demir Hisar region !!) of the above mentioned areas !!
I have pictures of some of the pages (includes a number of villages in the region, as well as the inhabitants of Koxhaxhik itself). By the looks of it, the region had a mixture of Albanian and Slavic anthroponyms, and in some cases there was a process of Slavicisation in the names.

Kelmendasi
03-28-2020, 02:33 PM
I do not believe there ever existed any mass movement of people from Carmenik or Martanesh into the region. There has always been movements of people of-course as is natural everywhere. Even the presence of Carmenika surname in the defter you are referring to, indicates that inhabitants from Carmenika were not common, otherwise there wouldn't be a need to have that last name. I also understand there is a fable that certain parts of the region may be from Martanesh. As far as I know, movement of people went from Golloborde into Martanesh and Mati and not the other way around, as can be seen by certain surnames in these region have clear origins from Golloborde. This is not to say there weren't instances when it occurred both directions. There are attempts to disenfranchise the region and I believe these stories of movements of other people into Golloborde are an attempt at that. I dont believe they ever happened and I believe they are a modern creation. I am open to any fact based approach to the contrary but I have so far not seen any factual proof of that ever happening. I would say the opposite is more likely.

Thank for the recommendation. I will try to buy it because I think it will be an interesting read.

I have found the Stebleva site to be very informative. It is unfortunate they are no longer updating it.
Sure, the presence of such names suggests that they didn't form the majority of the population and were newcomers to an already populated area, however it still does suggest a migration from the region. I do think there had to have been a migration into the region, for at least some villages. As Oliver Jens Schmitt states in the picture Exercitus posted, some of the villages were uninhabitable due to the wars in the area, so there must have been a re-population in later periods. However, it's hard to say if they were re-populated by locals from nearby villages or by families from different zones.

trdbr1234
03-28-2020, 02:52 PM
Quite interesting...
Do you know by chance where can I find such informations about the Korca and Gramosh regions of Albania?

If you are referring to the Macedonian community of Prespa lake (Pustec municipality). I have had acquaintance with people from the community. They have a collective memory of arriving from Greece. I remember reading a few years ago that there was also documentation of their arrival sometime in the 12-13 century from Greek Macedonia.

Kelmendasi
03-28-2020, 03:16 PM
If you are referring to the Macedonian community of Prespa lake (Pustec municipality). I have had acquaintance with people from the community. They have a collective memory of arriving from Greece. I remember reading a few years ago that there was also documentation of their arrival sometime in the 12-13 century from Greek Macedonia.
Do you know anything about the oral tradition of the families from Stėblevė? My maternal grandmother's cousin, who is from the village, wrote a book (a biography) and in it he states that there are claims that the majority of the families from Stėblevė descend from three brothers who arrived from North Macedonia. I do not remember the exact village, but I do know that some ethnographers (some of whom are very likely pro-Bulgarian) place their origin in the village of Magarevo, which was inhabited by Aromanians, though it also had an Orthodox Albanian community.

However, some others from the village claim that they came from Ternove or Lubalesh in Dibėr.

Exercitus
03-28-2020, 03:21 PM
Hi Kelmendasi, can you please pass me the list of Anthroponyms regarding the Villages in the area around the Albanian-Macedonian border (Reka, Dibra, Struga, Ohrid etc), meanwhile i find the Kicevo\Kercove (Serb Mahala & Anaut\Albanian Mahala) page of the Defter translated by Sokoloski & Stojanoski also some villages south of Kicevo\Kercove !!
Here are the Maalo Srpsko (The Serbian Mahala) and Maalo Arnautsko (The Albanian Mahala ), so even in the Serbian Mahala we notice Albanian peoples, as below;

- the thick underscore are Albanians with Folk names
- the subtle undeline are those with dubious origin
- the arrows are for the Vlachs

36981

36982

Which corresponds with I.Rexha's study;

36983

Kelmendasi
03-28-2020, 03:32 PM
Hi Kelmendasi, can you please pass me the list of Anthroponyms regarding the Villages in the area around the Albanian-Macedonian border (Reka, Dibra, Struga, Ohrid etc), meanwhile i find the Kicevo\Kercove (Serb Mahala & Anaut\Albanian Mahala) page of the Defter translated by Sokoloski & Stojanoski also some villages south of Kicevo\Kercove !!
Here are the Maalo Srpsko (The Serbian Mahala) and Maalo Arnautsko (The Albanian Mahala ), so even in the Serbian Mahala we notice Albanian peoples, as below;

- the thick underscore are Albanians with Folk names
- the subtle undeline are those with dubious origin
- the arrows are for the Vlachs

36981

36982

Which corresponds with I.Rexha's study;

36983
I have pictures of the anthroponyms found in the region of Gollobordė, and I think some of the pictures cover the villages in North Macedonia (for example Koxhaxhik, Lukovo, Jablanica).

https://i.postimg.cc/J48Wk4hW/IMG-0397.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/hvybcty7/IMG-0398.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/GtWtF095/IMG-0399.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/7Yr2ccxN/IMG-0400.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/RFQB0NHh/IMG-0401.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/yYCLPvtM/IMG-0402.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/sfYYVyHL/IMG-0403.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/BQvXdGrH/IMG-0404-1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Wpyv1LDM/IMG-0405.jpg

trdbr1234
03-28-2020, 03:42 PM
Do you know anything about the oral tradition of the families from Stėblevė? My maternal grandmother's cousin, who is from the village, wrote a book (a biography) and in it he states that there are claims that the majority of the families from Stėblevė descend from three brothers who arrived from North Macedonia. I do not remember the exact village, but I do know that some ethnographers (some of whom are very likely pro-Bulgarian) place their origin in the village of Magarevo, which was inhabited by Aromanians, though it also had an Orthodox Albanian community.

However, some others from the village claim that they came from Ternove or Lubalesh in Dibėr.

Ternove and Lubalesh are within the realm of Golloborde. Inter-village movements were common so it does not surprise me at all. Mass movements of people from outside the region were impossible. I say that because the region was likely the most influential in the Dibra Highlands. This due to its larger size and larger wealth.

There are attempts to recreate the movements of people to different areas. I read a book stating our family comes from Peshkopia-Kalaja Dodes area. However, I have found my family in the early Turkish defters which makes this impossible at the time of Turkish occupation.

There a lots of biases and agenda driven theories. I find them to lack entirely of proof and disregard them completely. But no, I do not know of any specific oral tradition from Stebleve.

Exercitus
03-28-2020, 05:16 PM
Great, Thanks Kelmendasi, i am aware now that the Villages like Trebishte, Ostren i madh (Ostren i vogel had a Albanian majority), Okshtun (althought a small village) etc had a Slavic-speaking majority (a kind of Linguistic "strongholds",which preserved the Slavic language in the region!) the other villages in the area had a important Albanian Orthodox presence!! So what impressed me is the East Golloborda\Golo brdo the part that now lays in North Macedonia, that's Why i think that both Schmitt (which wrote that the defenders of Koxhaxhik and Modric against the Ottomans were Slavs Orthodox!!) and Gjorgiev were not so "accurate" or sincere ..!!

Let's start with Koxhaxhik in the year 1467 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kodzhadzhik,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@41.4445452,20.5805429,4579m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x13511a0a0e344f57:0xd5f69 2a9dae87eb1!8m2!3d41.4427507!4d20.5993865

36986


Lukove year 1467 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lukovo,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@41.3472217,20.5840882,4585m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x13511c1a0bc698f7:0xe7fdc 103c83d7b74!8m2!3d41.3510654!4d20.6064624


36987

Exercitus
03-28-2020, 05:22 PM
Piskoposhtina\Piskupshtina\Пискупштина year 1467 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Piskupshtina,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@41.3218677,20.5974015,2294m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x13511dd1c6ed408f:0x89e3e aa3e750e635!8m2!3d41.3213801!4d20.6060922

36988


Jabllanica 1467
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Jablanica,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@41.3190121,20.5568571,4587m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x13511da144d64ecd:0x79122 8c1ea01a42e!8m2!3d41.3182376!4d20.5729401

36989

Drenok\Дренок 1467
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Drenok,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@41.3916044,20.5567339,1146m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x13511b73a5c1a6b1:0xb 5d1a30e63b2239!8m2!3d41.3913626!4d20.5610418

36990

Exercitus
03-28-2020, 05:54 PM
Considering that also the other Villages in that area like ;Stebleve(AL), Borovec\Бороец (M), Oktish\Октиси(M) - as Dragi Gjorgiev himself has deducted - had a Albanian Orthodox Majority !!
We might conclude that the Slavic-speakers in Golloborda where in kind of Enclave sorrounded by Albanian-speaking settlments !!

Now i want to go more east, to check the Anthroponymy of an area stretching from Ivancishta\ Ivanchishta\ Иванчишта passing through Mramorec\Мраморец, Arbinovo\ Арбиново going south-east to Soshan\ Сошани, Lleshan\ Лешани more east in Plaka\Плаќе and ending in Botun\Ботун !!

Everyone who has any kind of Anthroponimic material concerning this area in West N.Macedonia, Please let my know. Thanks

Keqa
03-28-2020, 06:12 PM
Do you know anything about the oral tradition of the families from Stėblevė? My maternal grandmother's cousin, who is from the village, wrote a book (a biography) and in it he states that there are claims that the majority of the families from Stėblevė descend from three brothers who arrived from North Macedonia. I do not remember the exact village, but I do know that some ethnographers (some of whom are very likely pro-Bulgarian) place their origin in the village of Magarevo, which was inhabited by Aromanians, though it also had an Orthodox Albanian community.

However, some others from the village claim that they came from Ternove or Lubalesh in Dibėr.

Only Rajku seem to have come from Magarevo. Other families have different traditions. Baushi for example could have very well come from Malesi e Madhe, considering there is such a fis in Shkrel region who are thought to be Anas.

They could very well be the source of Y82533 found in the region today - Trebishte, Klenje and other villages of Bulqize. Would be good to test them.

Kelmendasi
03-28-2020, 06:46 PM
Only Rajku seem to have come from Magarevo. Other families have different traditions. Baushi for example could have very well come from Malesi e Madhe, considering there is such a fis in Shkrel region who are thought to be Anas.

They could very well be the source of Y82533 found in the region today - Trebishte, Klenje and other villages of Bulqize. Would be good to test them.
From what I read, it seemed that the Rajku form the majority of the families in the village. I might be wrong though. I'm pretty sure my grandmother's cousin was from the Steva who are either a branch of the Rajku, or are a brotherhood stemming from the brother of the founder of the Rajku. There are though a number of families who came from elsewhere.

How close is the J2b-Y82533 in the region to the Y82533 in Shkrel? Judging by Yfull, it seems like the Y82533 in Dibra is Y82978+ (based on if the sample with the Bulgarian flag is actually the sample from Trebisht). The Shkreli however seem to just be Y82533* as of now. Though based on distribution and diversity, it does seem that Y82533 expanded form the direction of Malėsi.

Keqa
03-28-2020, 07:11 PM
From what I read, it seemed that the Rajku form the majority of the families in the village. I might be wrong though. I'm pretty sure my grandmother's cousin was from the Steva who are either a branch of the Rajku, or are a brotherhood stemming from the brother of the founder of the Rajku. There are though a number of families who came from elsewhere.

How close is the J2b-Y82533 in the region to the Y82533 in Shkrel? Judging by Yfull, it seems like the Y82533 in Dibra is Y82978+ (based on if the sample with the Bulgarian flag is actually the sample from Trebisht). The Shkreli however seem to just be Y82533* as of now. Though based on distribution and diversity, it does seem that Y82533 expanded form the direction of Malėsi.

According to Filipovic only Rajku (Steva and Gjeranovci included) have such traditions. He mentions that Petrovci who are one of the biggest families there, 60 houses, were Catholic. Kolajt (Kolovci) for example he has with origin from Martanesh etc.

Can you test Steva?


1400ybp with Shkreli, under Y82978. Shkreli are under CTS8786 (including those Serbian flags who in fact are Shkrel from Sanxhak). The fella above them as Y82533* is actually from Grude (Bojaj).

Kelmendasi
03-28-2020, 07:34 PM
According to Filipovic only Rajku (Steva and Gjeranovci included) have such traditions. He mentions that Petrovci who are one of the biggest families there, 60 houses, were Catholic. Kolajt (Kolovci) for example he has with origin from Martanesh etc.

Can you test Steva?


1400ybp with Shkreli, under Y82978. Shkreli are under CTS8786 (including those Serbians flags who in fact are Shkrel from Sanxhak). The fella above them as Y82533* is actually from Grude (Bojaj).
Interesting, Sadikaj states that the Gjerani are actually natives in the village and separate from the Rajku. Have you got a link to Filipovic's book/article on the region?

Honestly, I don't even think the guy knows who I am. He only really has contact with my grandmother. I can try though.

Ah I see, I thought that it was the Shkreli who were Y82533*.

Aspar
03-28-2020, 08:57 PM
If you are referring to the Macedonian community of Prespa lake (Pustec municipality). I have had acquaintance with people from the community. They have a collective memory of arriving from Greece. I remember reading a few years ago that there was also documentation of their arrival sometime in the 12-13 century from Greek Macedonia.

Well I am not really sure about where to look at exactly...

I am guided by a family story and ethnographic books that mention arrival of people from South Albania. Judging by a close y-dna match of mine, it's probably the region around Korca. Interesting is that the name of the village my family comes from is Konjsko however this is the slavicized version of the name, the old people called the village as 'Kontsko'. Interesting enough, there is a village with the same name on the Prespa lake that the villagers used to call as 'Kontsko' instead of 'Konjsko'.
This gives a certain parallels with names of villages in Albania. For example, Konckė, Albania, close to Gjirokastėr. In Greece there is Konitsa, Kotsika and Kontsika close to Ioannina, Greece and Konisko and Koniska also in Greece.

This toponym doesn't exist elsewhere but only in Albania, Greece and the Ohrid and Prespa regions of North Macedonia as well as the village of my ancestors located in the south-east of North Macedonia however with a clear signs that the people arrived somewhere from more western regions.

Anyway thanks for sharing this information about the people from Pustec!

Keqa
03-28-2020, 11:16 PM
Interesting, Sadikaj states that the Gjerani are actually natives in the village and separate from the Rajku. Have you got a link to Filipovic's book/article on the region?

Honestly, I don't even think the guy knows who I am. He only really has contact with my grandmother. I can try though.

Ah I see, I thought that it was the Shkreli who were Y82533*.

Check your email

Bruzmi
03-29-2020, 11:45 AM
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333618582_Defteri_i_Hollesishem_per_Zonat_e_Dibres _i_vitit_1467 Yes, E. Caka's translation is a complete list of all anthroponymy. It's the equivalent of Selami Pulaha, Defter of Shkodra of 1485. If you can't find it online, you could contact the author.

The Stebleva organization doesn't seem to be inactive. They published their last edition in December http://shoqatastebleva.al/Gazeta/stebleva%2040.pdf
Like I've said before on this forum, I think that ethnic-cultural-linguistic identity is something that doesn't change very quickly by government decision. What I mean is that the people of Golloborda even in the 19th century showed an Albanian identity that wasn't imposed on them by any state authority. I was thinking about that in contrast to Pustec/Liqenas to the south which is not Albanian and has never shown any Albanian identity. Religion also cannot explain it, because the Gorani to the north, although Muslim never had any Albanian identity either. In contrast in Golloborda:

"Hazis Lila kishte lidhje dhe miqėsi me Prefektin e Elbasanit, Aqif Pashė Biēakun (Elbasanin). Me t’u kthyer nga Vlora, ai shpalli bashkimin e krahinės sė Gollobordės me Qeverinė e Vlorės dhe ngriti flamurin shqiptar nė krahinė. Me ndihmėn e Aqif Pashės ai ngriti dhe ndėrtoi administratėn e krahinės. Puna e parė ishte tė shpėrndanin Flamurin Kuq e Zi me shqiponjėn dykrenore fshat mė fshat. Nė Steblevė u valėvit nė kulmin e shtėpisė sė Kormakajve. Aty ku Medin Kormaku, patrioti i kthyer nga Turqia krijoi nė Steblevė nėndegėn e Lidhjes sė Prizrenit nė kuadėr tė degės sė Dibrės."

That has to be explained. The most logical explanation to me has to do with the fact that this population was not always Slavic-speaking.

Now, I'm not questioning whether there are villages that are bilingual or even majority Slavic-speaking. What I'm saying is that it requires some serious explanation as to why such a population was so active in the Albanian National Awakening in the 19th century. Something which they paid very dearly in the Balkan Wars: "Si kudo nė Dibėr e nė Gollobordė ushtritė serbe masakruan pa mėshirė popullsinė, duke djegur e lėnė gėrmadha fshatra tė tėrė.’Forcat Gollobordase tė komanduara nga Hasan Berezha nga Ostreni i Madh dhe e Ramadan Kanxha nga Trebishti, iu bėnė rezistencė tė fortė, por nuk ndalėn dot ofensivėn nė vitin 1913, duke djegur Trebishtin me 650 shtėpi, Ostreni i Vogėl 90 shtėpi, Radoveshi 40 shtėpi, Borova 60 shtėpi, Sebishti 121 shtėpi, Ostreni i Madh 152 shtėpi, Tuēepi 45 shtėpi, Okshtuni 120 shtėpi, Klenja 120 shtėpi, Stebleva me 140 shtėpi dhe Zabzuni me 150 shtėpi"

This was not a logical choice on the part of the people of Golloborda. They could have done what the Gorani, a Slavic Muslim population, did and they would have been fine if not in a better situation when the delimitation of the borders ended. The people of Golloborda were given the chance in 1919-20 to join Yugoslavia and an international committee passed through the area, but they made the choice to remain in Albania. What I'm saying here is that their historical course of action begs for an explanation that can't be given either by religion (even the Orthodox of Golloborda didn't want to join Yugoslavia) or by looking at linguistics in an isolated manner.

PS Great job on uploading the pages from the defter Kelmendas!

Kelmendasi
03-29-2020, 02:35 PM
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333618582_Defteri_i_Hollesishem_per_Zonat_e_Dibres _i_vitit_1467 Yes, E. Caka's translation is a complete list of all anthroponymy. It's the equivalent of Selami Pulaha, Defter of Shkodra of 1485. If you can't find it online, you could contact the author.

The Stebleva organization doesn't seem to be inactive. They published their last edition in December http://shoqatastebleva.al/Gazeta/stebleva%2040.pdf
Like I've said before on this forum, I think that ethnic-cultural-linguistic identity is something that doesn't change very quickly by government decision. What I mean is that the people of Golloborda even in the 19th century showed an Albanian identity that wasn't imposed on them by any state authority. I was thinking about that in contrast to Pustec/Liqenas to the south which is not Albanian and has never shown any Albanian identity. Religion also cannot explain it, because the Gorani to the north, although Muslim never had any Albanian identity either. In contrast in Golloborda:

"Hazis Lila kishte lidhje dhe miqėsi me Prefektin e Elbasanit, Aqif Pashė Biēakun (Elbasanin). Me t’u kthyer nga Vlora, ai shpalli bashkimin e krahinės sė Gollobordės me Qeverinė e Vlorės dhe ngriti flamurin shqiptar nė krahinė. Me ndihmėn e Aqif Pashės ai ngriti dhe ndėrtoi administratėn e krahinės. Puna e parė ishte tė shpėrndanin Flamurin Kuq e Zi me shqiponjėn dykrenore fshat mė fshat. Nė Steblevė u valėvit nė kulmin e shtėpisė sė Kormakajve. Aty ku Medin Kormaku, patrioti i kthyer nga Turqia krijoi nė Steblevė nėndegėn e Lidhjes sė Prizrenit nė kuadėr tė degės sė Dibrės."

That has to be explained. The most logical explanation to me has to do with the fact that this population was not always Slavic-speaking.

Now, I'm not questioning whether there are villages that are bilingual or even majority Slavic-speaking. What I'm saying is that it requires some serious explanation as to why such a population was so active in the Albanian National Awakening in the 19th century. Something which they paid very dearly in the Balkan Wars: "Si kudo nė Dibėr e nė Gollobordė ushtritė serbe masakruan pa mėshirė popullsinė, duke djegur e lėnė gėrmadha fshatra tė tėrė.’Forcat Gollobordase tė komanduara nga Hasan Berezha nga Ostreni i Madh dhe e Ramadan Kanxha nga Trebishti, iu bėnė rezistencė tė fortė, por nuk ndalėn dot ofensivėn nė vitin 1913, duke djegur Trebishtin me 650 shtėpi, Ostreni i Vogėl 90 shtėpi, Radoveshi 40 shtėpi, Borova 60 shtėpi, Sebishti 121 shtėpi, Ostreni i Madh 152 shtėpi, Tuēepi 45 shtėpi, Okshtuni 120 shtėpi, Klenja 120 shtėpi, Stebleva me 140 shtėpi dhe Zabzuni me 150 shtėpi"

This was not a logical choice on the part of the people of Golloborda. They could have done what the Gorani, a Slavic Muslim population, did and they would have been fine if not in a better situation when the delimitation of the borders ended. The people of Golloborda were given the chance in 1919-20 to join Yugoslavia and an international committee passed through the area, but they made the choice to remain in Albania. What I'm saying here is that their historical course of action begs for an explanation that can't be given either by religion (even the Orthodox of Golloborda didn't want to join Yugoslavia) or by looking at linguistics in an isolated manner.

PS Great job on uploading the pages from the defter Kelmendas!
Yeah, it is very interesting that they have retained a very strong Albanian identity (especially in villages such as Steblevė) despite the fact that a number of these villages are bilingual. The region seems to have always been one of Albanian-Slavic coexistence or symbiosis, this is even suggested in the Ottoman defters. Even today, there are villages (such as Zabzun, Borovė, Fushė Studė, Okshtun etc) that are solely inhabited by Albanian-speakers but have retained very good relations with the bilingual villages.

trdbr1234
03-29-2020, 02:49 PM
According to Filipovic only Rajku (Steva and Gjeranovci included) have such traditions. He mentions that Petrovci who are one of the biggest families there, 60 houses, were Catholic. Kolajt (Kolovci) for example he has with origin from Martanesh etc.

Can you test Steva?


1400ybp with Shkreli, under Y82978. Shkreli are under CTS8786 (including those Serbian flags who in fact are Shkrel from Sanxhak). The fella above them as Y82533* is actually from Grude (Bojaj).

The article Kelmendasi posted states that Rajku in Stebleve comes from Ternova. As can be seen, the majority of the families in Stebleve are old families without origins from anywhere. With the exception of "Gruja" and "Uliu" that comes from Ulqin. All the other movements are inter-Golloborde movements. Ternova is on the extremity of Golloborde region, yet still part of it. It is not Martanesh. It borders Martanesh.

https://i.imgur.com/ORIb3Sb.png

https://i.imgur.com/JMYEu3S.png


Do you mind sharing the Filipovic page?

Keqa
03-29-2020, 04:20 PM
The article Kelmendasi posted states that Rajku in Stebleve comes from Ternova. As can be seen, the majority of the families in Stebleve are old families without origins from anywhere. With the exception of "Gruja" and "Uliu" that comes from Ulqin. All the other movements are inter-Golloborde movements. Ternova is on the extremity of Golloborde region, yet still part of it. It is not Martanesh. It borders Martanesh.

https://i.imgur.com/ORIb3Sb.png

https://i.imgur.com/JMYEu3S.png


Do you mind sharing the Filipovic page?

Population movements were constant especially in Gheg populated regions that bordered or were near the tribal zones. Golloborda is no exception. There is clear linguistic, and now genetic, evidence that some of these villages were heterogeneous ethnically speaking.

I have read mister Sadikaj but as Kelmendasi pointed out such oral tradition persist to this day among some of the families there as well..

Btw, what fis do you belong to and from what village are you from?


Sure, send me your email via pm and I will forward you a PDF copy of his book.

trdbr1234
03-29-2020, 05:40 PM
Population movements were constant especially in Gheg populated regions that bordered or were near the tribal zones. Golloborda is no exception. There is clear linguistic, and now genetic, evidence that some of these villages were heterogeneous ethnically speaking.

I have read mister Sadikaj but as Kelmendasi pointed out such oral tradition persist to this day among some of the families there as well..

Btw, what fis do you belong to and from what village are you from?


Sure, send me your email via pm and I will forward you a PDF copy of his book.

You remind me of a Kosovar by the name of Skerdilaid whom pushed different forms of agenda driven theories. I find this individual to be the most anti-Albanian individual on the internet. You give me the same vibe and inclination.

To answer your question, most of these "oral traditions" that claim to originate from Martanesh come from Western Golloborde region. They are an extreme minority to begin with. I find it odd that these same families claiming to possibly come from Martanesh have a counterpart in Eastern Golloborde that does not have such tradition. It sometimes even turns out that these same people in Western Golloborde are descendant of people from Eastern Golloborde, whom have no such oral tradition. I would mention some last names when this is true but I would like to respect their privacy.

To me this indicates a modern creation that is not based on fact. It falls in line with other populations in the Balkans whom are under pressure to switch identities. If you have information to the contrary, I am really curious to see it.

In addition, I find it odd how a region that has a total of 7-8 villages, that has been insignificant in the regional scene, can influence a region 10 times its size and population. In addition to this, not leaving any historical proof or collective memory of this what so ever. It is absurd.


If I had to guess where these "theories" came from it is from people like Filipovic whom needed to justify an "Albanian" presence in the area, as well as modern pressure to distance themselves form perceived "Slavic" area.

I have seen no proof what so ever of this and it doesn't even make logical sense.

Keqa
03-29-2020, 06:52 PM
Anyway, since you have nothing of value to add lets stay on topic. We have deviated enough.

trdbr1234
03-29-2020, 08:03 PM
Anyway, since you have nothing of value to add lets stay on topic. We have deviated enough.

??

You made un-factuated theories regarding the makeup of the population and did not provide any proof or reasoning for it. I gave you a counterargument to your unfactuated theory.

If your world view is based on the Serbian author, Filipovic, at least provide the snipped you are referring to. Sadikaj seems to wholly disagree with Filipovic.

You sound more and more like that Kosovar, unfortunately. He had the same admiration for the work of Filipovic, among some other Serbian authors.

Keqa
03-29-2020, 09:41 PM
??

You made un-factuated theories regarding the makeup of the population and did not provide any proof or reasoning for it. I gave you a counterargument to your unfactuated theory.

If your world view is based on the Serbian author, Filipovic, at least provide the snipped you are referring to. Sadikaj seems to wholly disagree with Filipovic.

You sound more and more like that Kosovar, unfortunately. He had the same admiration for the work of Filipovic, among some other Serbian authors.

What did I say that doesn't stand according to you?

Keqa
03-30-2020, 04:57 PM
Great, Thanks Kelmendasi, i am aware now that the Villages like Trebishte, Ostren i madh (Ostren i vogel had a Albanian majority), Okshtun (althought a small village) etc had a Slavic-speaking majority (a kind of Linguistic "strongholds",which preserved the Slavic language in the region!) the other villages in the area had a important Albanian Orthodox presence!! So what impressed me is the East Golloborda\Golo brdo the part that now lays in North Macedonia, that's Why i think that both Schmitt (which wrote that the defenders of Koxhaxhik and Modric against the Ottomans were Slavs Orthodox!!) and Gjorgiev were not so "accurate" or sincere ..!!

Let's start with Koxhaxhik in the year 1467 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kodzhadzhik,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@41.4445452,20.5805429,4579m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x13511a0a0e344f57:0xd5f69 2a9dae87eb1!8m2!3d41.4427507!4d20.5993865

36986


Lukove year 1467 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lukovo,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@41.3472217,20.5840882,4585m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x13511c1a0bc698f7:0xe7fdc 103c83d7b74!8m2!3d41.3510654!4d20.6064624


36987

Not surprising at all considering all Okshtun seem to belong to a cluster that most definitely came with Slavs. Interesting however because all are Albanian speaking and Muslim, and have been as such as far as they can remember. They must have assimilated early on.

Exercitus
03-30-2020, 05:52 PM
I think that you are talking about the 'R1a-L1029 Dibra Cluster',https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=33&products_id=81560 which has a Tmrca that, i guess, chronologically doesn't fit with the Slavic Migrations toward the Balkans (VI-VII centuries a.d) ?! Anyway, Not all Albanians have typical palaeo-balkanic Haplogroups (Ev-13, J2b, R1b etc), and that's a fact, but i noticed that the percentage of the palaeo-balkanic Haplogroups among the South Slavs it's much more higher compared with the non-'indigeneous'\foreign Haplogroups (I2a, R1a etc) among the modern Albanians. So it seems obvious that there exist much more Slavicized proto-Albanians\Albanians than Albanized south-Slavs. Well, intermingling and assimilation processes were usual\inevitable, especially in mediaval Societies!!

By the way, if i may, can you tell me who is that Albanian guy here ?? https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-PH908*/

Keqa
03-30-2020, 07:00 PM
I was talking about L1029 as a whole, so Dibra cluster is no exception. Fits perfectly with their expansion. TMRCA’s between sub-branches don’t have to necessarily align perfectly with the migration dates. Plus, in this specific case we even have literature evidence cementing that fact. For sure. However, that only goes for Ghegs and some Tosk subgroups, like Labs for example. Tosks from some regions are almost in par with south Slavs as far as genetic and linguistic influences go.


No idea, first time I am seeing this sample.

Bruzmi
03-30-2020, 08:41 PM
What's the sampling? You need n=100 sample size per 10000 population size. I don't think that we can get into broad conclusions about Tosk subgroups, people from Dibra, Labs or whatever group of Albanians or Slavs with such limited sampling. Sure, you can make an assumption with n=5 that needs to be confirmed with more sampling about the genealogy of a fis, but no more than that.

If we want to "get serious" what is needed is a team composed of interdisciplinary approach and citizen volunteers/scientists to help with the testing and bibliography to go to a given region, do mass sampling and interviews and then write a paper that will be submitted in an international journal in English and a local one in Albanian. That is the way to do this sort of thing properly.

trdbr1234
03-30-2020, 09:46 PM
I was talking about L1029 as a whole, so Dibra cluster is no exception. Fits perfectly with their expansion. TMRCA’s between sub-branches don’t have to necessarily align perfectly with the migration dates. Plus, in this specific case we even have literature evidence cementing that fact. For sure. However, that only goes for Ghegs and some Tosk subgroups, like Labs for example. Tosks from some regions are almost in par with south Slavs as far as genetic and linguistic influences go.


No idea, first time I am seeing this sample.

You are exceptionally aggravating .

One thing L1029 does not do is, fit "perfectly" with "their"[Slavic] expansion. For one its TMRCA is before the Slavic Expansion. Secondly, its distribution is from Scandinavia and Germany. Thirdly it has experienced a bottleneck within Albanians. One thing it does not do is fit "purrrfectly with their expansion."

In addition, the bottlleneck it has experienced within Albanians may have well occurred before "proto" -Golloborde was established. It's presence in the area indicates an Albanian presence. Not a Slavic presence.

Once again, you are quoting "sources" but not providing the source. I assume it is another of your Serbian authors. Why don't you tell us exactly which sources you are referring to?

trdbr1234
03-30-2020, 09:49 PM
What's the sampling? You need n=100 sample size per 10000 population size. I don't think that we can get into broad conclusions about Tosk subgroups, people from Dibra, Labs or whatever group of Albanians or Slavs with such limited sampling. Sure, you can make an assumption with n=5 that needs to be confirmed with more sampling about the genealogy of a fis, but no more than that.

If we want to "get serious" what is needed is team composed of interdisciplinary approach and citizen volunteers/scientists to help with the testing and bibliography to go to a given region do mass sampling and interviews and then write a paper that will be submitted in an international journal in English and a local one in Albanian. That is the way to do this sort of thing properly.

Thank you Maleschreiber, I agree completely. I find your reasoning to be a breath of fresh air.

However, lacking a large Y-DNA study of the area, we do have autosomal data which can be a temporary placeholder. On average, member autosomal profiles indicate a highly homogeneous society that has experiences less North-East autosomal pull than the average Albanian profile, with a strong pull towards Italy. This may be the standard of the Diber region, but it shows in my opinion a more "autochthonous" autosomal profile than the average Albanian. Strongly removed from the Macedonian average. Closest match to the average Gollobordan is Albanians with a Western pull.

J Man
03-30-2020, 10:42 PM
Anyone here ever hear or know of a village called Pllane that is very close to the Mat River in Lezhe?

Keqa
03-31-2020, 01:03 AM
Sample size is about 550, but from few sources. All the sources have randomly tested Tosks but have ended up with similar outcome, percentage wise. So, statistically speaking even if sample size is greater those numbers won't change drastically.

Of course, 10,000 or even testing all the fis in every village would be the ideal situation. However, we are working with what we currently have...

Keqa
03-31-2020, 01:09 AM
You are exceptionally aggravating .

One thing L1029 does not do is, fit "perfectly" with "their"[Slavic] expansion. For one its TMRCA is before the Slavic Expansion. Secondly, its distribution is from Scandinavia and Germany. Thirdly it has experienced a bottleneck within Albanians. One thing it does not do is fit "purrrfectly with their expansion."

In addition, the bottlleneck it has experienced within Albanians may have well occurred before "proto" -Golloborde was established. It's presence in the area indicates an Albanian presence. Not a Slavic presence.

Once again, you are quoting "sources" but not providing the source. I assume it is another of your Serbian authors. Why don't you tell us exactly which sources you are referring to?

Yeah of course, Dabiziv and Dobrislav recorded there during middle ages by Ottomans were perhaps Swedes or Danes.

Kelmendasi
03-31-2020, 02:04 AM
Anyone here ever hear or know of a village called Pllane that is very close to the Mat River in Lezhe?
Yes, Pllanė is primarily made up of families who came to the village from Mirditė. It is one of the villages in the Bregu i Matit region of Lezhė that has a population that can trace their ancestry to Mirdita, nearly all of the other villages in the area trace their ancestry to Malėsi (primarily Kelmendi and Shkreli).

trdbr1234
03-31-2020, 04:03 AM
Yeah of course, Dabiziv and Dobrislav recorded there during middle ages by Ottomans were perhaps Swedes or Danes.

Is that an attempt to be ironic? Or do you have an incapability to complete your train of thought?

Given the state of the pandemic and your high risk age group, I would think you'd mature a bit.

Bruzmi
03-31-2020, 07:19 AM
Keqa, Albania has about 2,8 mil, Kosovo about 1.5mil. With a total of n=550 (of which some are not from these two areas) you're not getting that much really in terms of representativeness. You work with what you have, but what you have is not something that can be used to derive conclusions. I mean that you can't say that R1a-M417 represents 6,4% of Albanian lineages with such limited sampling:

http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/R-M458.png
http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/R-Z280.png

It's still much lower than the Balkan average and it may be even lower but we can't say that it's 6.4% with that many samples.

What you guys could be doing in your very commendable project is to start a targetted research project for a given region and do crowdfunding to support it. And once you're done, prepare a research paper with the results. That is the way to go I think. I'm saying all of this because it's a really good project and the discussions we've all been having here are great and all, but we all have to "step it up" and I think that it is something quite feasible :)

Keqa
03-31-2020, 02:11 PM
550 I said just confirmed Tosks, excluding Arebresh. For Ghegs there are around 1000 samples approximately. As I said, if you randomly select three groups from X population and all three show similar ratios chances of that changing drastically if sample size is increased are pretty slim.

Keqa
03-31-2020, 02:32 PM
Is that an attempt to be ironic? Or do you have an incapability to complete your train of thought?

Given the state of the pandemic and your high risk age group, I would think you'd mature a bit.

Why do you involve yourself in matters that you can barely grasp? Go first learn the definition of ‘genetic bottleneck’ and then come here and talk to me.

trdbr1234
03-31-2020, 04:00 PM
Why do you involve yourself in matters that you can barely grasp? Go first learn the definition of ‘genetic bottleneck’ and then come here and talk to me.

Sure thing.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Population_bottleneck.svg/1200px-Population_bottleneck.svg.png

The Dibra cluster experienced a "founder effect" after the "bottleneck"

The graph should be an illustration for when "founder effects" occur. That is the rebound period of the "bottleneck"

Every Y-DNA line today is a result of a bottleneck and resulting founder effect. It is significant to determine where these occurred. With L1029 "Dibra Cluster", it is clear that occurred within Albanians and likely took part in the ethnogenesis of proto-Albanians

Keqa
03-31-2020, 04:56 PM
Jesus man, how does a bottleneck prove that it occurred among Albanians? Based on their results we can only say that they experienced a founder effect, considering their tight cluster. A single Slavic male that entered Gollo during Middle Ages, or even during their invasion, could have caused such an effect.

Balkans are extremely under-tested, so the picture is not clear yet what sort of a bottleneck that particular cluster experienced. For all we know, they could have close relatives among the slavic speaking communities of Macedonia or even Bulgaria...

J Man
03-31-2020, 05:20 PM
I remember seeing a number of J2a results from the Himara region of Southwest Albania a while back. They form their own cluster which is interesting. More men from there if tested will likely turn out to belong to that J2a cluster as well. I know that Himara is mixed with both Albanian and Greek speakers but it seems to be a pretty distinct region.

trdbr1234
03-31-2020, 06:46 PM
Jesus man, how does a bottleneck prove that it occurred among Albanians? Based on their results we can only say that they experienced a founder effect, considering their tight cluster. A single Slavic male that entered Gollo during Middle Ages, or even during their invasion, could have caused such an effect.

Balkans are extremely under-tested, so the picture is not clear yet what sort of a bottleneck that particular cluster experienced. For all we know, they could have close relatives among the slavic speaking communities of Macedonia or even Bulgaria...

But you don't have evidence to the contrary. You are simply pushing your agenda driven theories without any basis, aside from propagandistic works of authors that provided the justification for the attempted ethnic cleansing of the area in question.

It is not a coincidence how you flip-flop between when there is insufficient evidence and there is sufficient evidence. Even though the information to both conclusion is equal. ;)

There is a reason I consider you to be the most Albanian hating, anti-Albanian on the internet.

Keqa
03-31-2020, 06:58 PM
Evidence is all there for those capable to see it.

Shall we talk about your cluster a bit too, how Albanian it is and how it played a major role in our ethnogenesis? Which village were you from again, btw xD

Of course I am because I don’t sugar coat it for you.

trdbr1234
03-31-2020, 08:36 PM
Evidence is all there for those capable to see it.

Shall we talk about your cluster a bit too, how Albanian it is and how it played a major role in our ethnogenesis? Which village were you from again, btw xD

Of course I am because I don’t sugar coat it for you.

How many times have we had this discussion?

I would very much like to have a discussion about my paternal Y-DNA line. It is pointless to have it with you, however.

There' not much to talk about in either case, as it remains to be one of the most underrepresented R1a lines. Which makes for an interesting story but a story not ready to be told, apparently.


It is incredible how nosy you are. You're an old man stuck at home that behaves like an old gossiping lady stuck at home.

Kelmendasi
03-31-2020, 10:43 PM
I remember seeing a number of J2a results from the Himara region of Southwest Albania a while back. They form their own cluster which is interesting. More men from there if tested will likely turn out to belong to that J2a cluster as well. I know that Himara is mixed with both Albanian and Greek speakers but it seems to be a pretty distinct region.
I found the anthroponyms from the defter of 1583 on the region posted on an Albanian forum, by the looks of it Albanian names seem to dominate http://arberiaonline.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=168. Certain families who still live around Vlorė today are recorded in the defter, for example the Gjipali (Dhuman Gjipali is recorded in Himarė itself). Some on the site believe that the region was mostly settled by Albanian who arrived from the north (primarily Mirditė and Dukagjin), whilst this may be true for a number of families, I do think some are locals.

I believe it was very similar in the region of Dropull, I'm pretty sure the majority of names recorded in the defter of 1520 on that region were also Albanian (or Albanian variants). I need to search for that defter again to double check.

J Man
04-01-2020, 01:50 AM
I found the anthroponyms from the defter of 1583 on the region posted on an Albanian forum, by the looks of it Albanian names seem to dominate http://arberiaonline.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=168. Certain families who still live around Vlorė today are recorded in the defter, for example the Gjipali (Dhuman Gjipali is recorded in Himarė itself). Some on the site believe that the region was mostly settled by Albanian who arrived from the north (primarily Mirditė and Dukagjin), whilst this may be true for a number of families, I do think some are locals.

I believe it was very similar in the region of Dropull, I'm pretty sure the majority of names recorded in the defter of 1520 on that region were also Albanian (or Albanian variants). I need to search for that defter again to double check.

Unfortunately the Albanian Bloodlines Project does not seem to be as public as it used to be and I can't view the Himara J2a guy's surnames.

Bruzmi
04-01-2020, 12:10 PM
Kelmendasi, I don't think that there's an actual tradition about a population coming from Mirdita. Most of the Laberia villages appear in the defter of the Sancak of Arvanid in 1431 and the lineages go on from that era. There would be some historical or linguistic evidence to prove such a settlement. Also, in most villages the tradition of a family that came from elsewhere is very well recorded. If I had to speak about a sort of settlement from the north I would speak about one from Malėsia, which may have happened much earlier when dialect division in Albanian was much smaller.

Speaking of good ol' Malėsia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataguzi_(tribe) Are there any samples from that area?

Kelmendasi
04-01-2020, 01:58 PM
Kelmendasi, I don't think that there's an actual tradition about a population coming from Mirdita. Most of the Laberia villages appear in the defter of the Sancak of Arvanid in 1431 and the lineages go on from that era. There would be some historical or linguistic evidence to prove such a settlement. Also, in most villages the tradition of a family that came from elsewhere is very well recorded. If I had to speak about a sort of settlement from the north I would speak about one from Malƫsia, which may have happened much earlier when dialect division in Albanian was much smaller.

Speaking of good ol' Malƫsia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataguzi_(tribe) Are there any samples from that area?
I see, I remember watching a documentary on the region and one of the inhabitants who was part of the old Koleka family stated that his family had origin from Dukagjin. It does make sense though for most of them to have local origin, but I wonder where this idea of origin from further north came from.

Nice article! I do not think anyone from the village of Mataguži itself have tested. However, an anas family from Dinosha, Gruda, who according to some Serbian literature have origin from Mataguži tested as J-Y19093. Thing is that when I talked to the tested individual, he stated that he had never heard of this origin from Mataguži and actually said that many of the elders believe that they came from Greece in order to flee from the Ottomans. Also, an anas family from the Benkaj of Trieshi also tested as Y19093 which makes me think that this may be a more local lineage.

Sorcelow
04-02-2020, 04:12 AM
Kelmendasi, I don't think that there's an actual tradition about a population coming from Mirdita. Most of the Laberia villages appear in the defter of the Sancak of Arvanid in 1431 and the lineages go on from that era. There would be some historical or linguistic evidence to prove such a settlement. Also, in most villages the tradition of a family that came from elsewhere is very well recorded. If I had to speak about a sort of settlement from the north I would speak about one from Malėsia, which may have happened much earlier when dialect division in Albanian was much smaller.

Speaking of good ol' Malėsia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataguzi_(tribe) Are there any samples from that area?

Very interesting. Could you please provide the link to the defter if it is online?

Bruzmi
04-02-2020, 10:11 AM
Hey, I have a book (offline) that lists villages in Laberia with genealogical information from the defter of Sancak of Arvanid.

Many settlements existed then and some are recorded in Byzantine times. The microtoponymy also shows evidence that in the collective memory of the people events from much earlier eras have been preserved. A typical example is the widespread term "Qesari" (Caesar) in toponyms and names in the area. That is either a relic from the Roman era or from the Byzantine era, but an early Byzantine era as Caesar was not used in the late Byzantine times.

Most families in Laberia have no record of coming from elsewhere. Those who do have done so in much later historical times and they are recorded as "coming from elsewhere". Among those who have no record of coming from anywhere, there is for example the village of Ēorraj who has elements in the local dialect that are similar to those of Malėsia (but not to Geg in general). Ēorraj in fact in 1432 (the year the defter was compiled) was one of the bigger villages of the area with 74 households.

Since we're discussing Labėria, I'm adding the brotherhoods of a typical village of the region: Kallarat. Its brotherhoods: Gjinaj, Gjokonaj, Gjėzesaj, Mėrtigjinaj, Misėrgjonaj, Qesėraj.

Keqa
04-02-2020, 01:59 PM
Maleschreiber, anything on Sevaster?

Bruzmi
04-03-2020, 08:59 AM
Hey, Keqa. Hope you're well man.

I couldn't find Sevaster. At first I thought that I couldn't find the proper spelling of the toponym by the Ottomans, but it turns up in 1583 in the defter of Vlora as Kudhės-Gėrhot: "Dėftim nė sanxhakun e Vlorės i vitit 1583, hapur nė kadastrėn, dėftesė 62, faqja 29 lexohet Kudhės, mbasi fshati ka ruajtur kėtė emėr Kudhės-Gėrhot deri nė vitet e mėvonshme. Nė kėtė listė ky fshat ka pasur 283 burra dhe 387 shtėpi." This village traces its origin as a branch of the fis of Kudhės in the 16th century : "Shekuj me pare quhej Kudhesi perivoli se kishte shume vreshta e per ta dalluar nga Kudhesi Gerhoti Sevaster Vlore qe ishte shkeputur nga ky fshat rreth sh. XVI" http://kudhesi.blogspot.com/2009/04/historia-e-fshatit-kudhes.html

"-Fiset e para qe njihen:
1- Autoktone : Tataj e Canaj
2-Fise te ardhshem: Qejvanaj qe perfshihen fiset sot: Dhimememaj, Memaj,Gjikenuraj , Ninaj.
3-Qurkaj ku perfshihen: Dedaj, Kokaj, Gjonaj, Markaj, Dushaj, Gjinaj, Lekaj,Jovanaj.
4-Kongjinaj ku hyjne keto fise: Kabucaj, Filaj(te shuar), Gjikelekaj dhe Nimogjinaj (te shuar)"

Keqa
04-03-2020, 02:32 PM
Hey, Keqa. Hope you're well man.

I couldn't find Sevaster. At first I thought that I couldn't find the proper spelling of the toponym by the Ottomans, but it turns up in 1583 in the defter of Vlora as Kudhės-Gėrhot: "Dėftim nė sanxhakun e Vlorės i vitit 1583, hapur nė kadastrėn, dėftesė 62, faqja 29 lexohet Kudhės, mbasi fshati ka ruajtur kėtė emėr Kudhės-Gėrhot deri nė vitet e mėvonshme. Nė kėtė listė ky fshat ka pasur 283 burra dhe 387 shtėpi." This village traces its origin as a branch of the fis of Kudhės in the 16th century : "Shekuj me pare quhej Kudhesi perivoli se kishte shume vreshta e per ta dalluar nga Kudhesi Gerhoti Sevaster Vlore qe ishte shkeputur nga ky fshat rreth sh. XVI" http://kudhesi.blogspot.com/2009/04/historia-e-fshatit-kudhes.html

"-Fiset e para qe njihen:
1- Autoktone : Tataj e Canaj
2-Fise te ardhshem: Qejvanaj qe perfshihen fiset sot: Dhimememaj, Memaj,Gjikenuraj , Ninaj.
3-Qurkaj ku perfshihen: Dedaj, Kokaj, Gjonaj, Markaj, Dushaj, Gjinaj, Lekaj,Jovanaj.
4-Kongjinaj ku hyjne keto fise: Kabucaj, Filaj(te shuar), Gjikelekaj dhe Nimogjinaj (te shuar)"

Thanks, Maleschreiber. Hope the same for you.


Yes, Sevaster seems to be part of Kudhes Gerhoti (interesting toponym, Ger-Hoti). The settlement I was curious about. The fis listed in that article are actually from Kudhes Perivoli. Reason I asked is because couple fis from this settlement, Kudhes Gerhoti/Sevaster, have ended up being in my cluster - tmcra 1100ybp. So far they, me (Thaē), a Morine from Tropoje, a Kastrati from Has and Rexhepagic from Plave (Ali Pashe Gucia’s relatives) belong to this cluster: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y133365/

Interesting stuff.

Bruzmi
04-04-2020, 09:14 AM
Kudhės-Gėrhot and Kudhės on the coast are one farefisni for the most part. The fise te ardhura of Kudhės are families from Kudhės-Gėrhot that came back to that area. The villages of Kudhės-Gėrhot are Sevaster, Golimbas, Dushkarak, Mazhar, Ploēė, Vajzė, Amonicė, Lezhan and Shkozė (Mehmet Shehu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmet_Shehu) was from that village ). These two regions have the same ancestry and families moved from one area to the other back and forth through the centuries. On forumi shqiptar there's a book about Shkoza (https://www.forumishqiptar.com/threads/148853-Shkoza-dhe-Baba-Arshi-Bazaj) that has been uploaded and is very revealing.

"Gjithashtu ekzistojnė shumė mbiemra tė pėrbashkėt, tė ruajtura akoma. Kėtė fakt e filloj qė nga fisi Bazaj, tė cilit i pėrkas, ku paraardhėsi i mbiemrit ka qėnė Cani. Dhe ara ose vendi, ku kanė qenė tė parėt tanė, ka kėtė emėr toponimik: Ara e Canit. I njėjti mbiemėr ėshtė edhe nė Kudhės-Perivol. Dede nė Kapte Shkozė mė pas janė tjetėrsuar nė mbiemra tė tjerė. I njėjti mbiemėr Dedi ekziston sot nė Kudhės-Perivol. Ekziston nė Shkozė dhe Kudhės toponimi Goricė e Dede, Bregu i Dhimos, Fisi Gjoni, Markaj, Ara e Goles e tė tjerė qė duhen evidentuar e studiuar. Tė tillė toponime ka dhe nė Kudhės tė Bregdetit. Pothuaj janė shumė gjėra tė pėrbashkėta midis Kudhės-Gėrhotit dhe Kudhės-Perivolit."

J Man
04-04-2020, 04:52 PM
Kudhės-Gėrhot and Kudhės on the coast are one farefisni for the most part. The fise te ardhura of Kudhės are families from Kudhės-Gėrhot that came back to that area. The villages of Kudhės-Gėrhot are Sevaster, Golimbas, Dushkarak, Mazhar, Ploēė, Vajzė, Amonicė, Lezhan and Shkozė (Mehmet Shehu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmet_Shehu) was from that village ). These two regions have the same ancestry and families moved from one area to the other back and forth through the centuries. On forumi shqiptar there's a book about Shkoza (https://www.forumishqiptar.com/threads/148853-Shkoza-dhe-Baba-Arshi-Bazaj) that has been uploaded and is very revealing.

"Gjithashtu ekzistojnė shumė mbiemra tė pėrbashkėt, tė ruajtura akoma. Kėtė fakt e filloj qė nga fisi Bazaj, tė cilit i pėrkas, ku paraardhėsi i mbiemrit ka qėnė Cani. Dhe ara ose vendi, ku kanė qenė tė parėt tanė, ka kėtė emėr toponimik: Ara e Canit. I njėjti mbiemėr ėshtė edhe nė Kudhės-Perivol. Dede nė Kapte Shkozė mė pas janė tjetėrsuar nė mbiemra tė tjerė. I njėjti mbiemėr Dedi ekziston sot nė Kudhės-Perivol. Ekziston nė Shkozė dhe Kudhės toponimi Goricė e Dede, Bregu i Dhimos, Fisi Gjoni, Markaj, Ara e Goles e tė tjerė qė duhen evidentuar e studiuar. Tė tillė toponime ka dhe nė Kudhės tė Bregdetit. Pothuaj janė shumė gjėra tė pėrbashkėta midis Kudhės-Gėrhotit dhe Kudhės-Perivolit."

This is actually quite interesting. I could be wrong but as far as I know there is only one Y-DNA result so far from Kudhės in Himare and he is part of the J2a "Himare Cluster".

Kelmendasi
04-04-2020, 05:01 PM
This is actually quite interesting. I could be wrong but as far as I know there is only one Y-DNA result so far from Kudhės in Himare and he is part of the J2a "Himare Cluster".
He actually does not belong to the Himara Cluster of J2a-M410, which is defined by F3133. He belongs to J2a-Z36892 (I assume Z36892>FGC6662 based on Yfull) which is shared with a Ēam Albanian from Epirus and an Albanian from Pėrmet.

J Man
04-04-2020, 06:15 PM
He actually does not belong to the Himara Cluster of J2a-M410, which is defined by F3133. He belongs to J2a-Z36892 (I assume Z36892>FGC6662 based on Yfull) which is shared with a Ēam Albanian from Epirus and an Albanian from Pėrmet.

Ahhh sorry my bad...That is actually quite interesting though. Does the J2a Ēam Albanian that he matches with come from a certain village in Epirus?

Kelmendasi
04-04-2020, 06:30 PM
Ahhh sorry my bad...That is actually quite interesting though. Does the J2a Ēam Albanian that he matches with come from a certain village in Epirus?
Not too sure honestly, he's from the region of Thesprotia like many other Ēams. I'd guess that he comes from Syvota (Volė) or Igoumenitsa (Gumenicė)

J Man
04-04-2020, 06:39 PM
Not too sure honestly, he's from the region of Thesprotia like many other Ēams. I'd guess that he comes from Syvota (Volė) or Igoumenitsa (Gumenicė)

Ahhh ok thanks...How about the J2a guy from Pėrmet? Does he come from the town of Pėrmet or a village in the municipality do you know?

Kelmendasi
04-04-2020, 07:05 PM
Ahhh ok thanks...How about the J2a guy from Pėrmet? Does he come from the town of Pėrmet or a village in the municipality do you know?
He's from the town itself.

trdbr1234
04-11-2020, 11:49 PM
He's from the town itself.

I am trying to read Golo Brdo by Filipovic. Google docs is having a horrible time translating it. Is there any other translation software that can be used?

I did find this map in the book interesting.

It includes Gjorica to the North and Ternova to the West as within the boundaries, which are the traditional boundaries referred by Mehmet Hasani. It makes sense given how widespread Cami is in Gjorica. Have Cami been tested?

https://i.ibb.co/gM0cdHj/glbrd.png

trdbr1234
04-12-2020, 12:23 AM
Well I am not really sure about where to look at exactly...

I am guided by a family story and ethnographic books that mention arrival of people from South Albania. Judging by a close y-dna match of mine, it's probably the region around Korca. Interesting is that the name of the village my family comes from is Konjsko however this is the slavicized version of the name, the old people called the village as 'Kontsko'. Interesting enough, there is a village with the same name on the Prespa lake that the villagers used to call as 'Kontsko' instead of 'Konjsko'.
This gives a certain parallels with names of villages in Albania. For example, Konckė, Albania, close to Gjirokastėr. In Greece there is Konitsa, Kotsika and Kontsika close to Ioannina, Greece and Konisko and Koniska also in Greece.

This toponym doesn't exist elsewhere but only in Albania, Greece and the Ohrid and Prespa regions of North Macedonia as well as the village of my ancestors located in the south-east of North Macedonia however with a clear signs that the people arrived somewhere from more western regions.

Anyway thanks for sharing this information about the people from Pustec!

That is interesting. It is a difficult endeavor you are on.

They are a very kind people, from my experience.

Kelmendasi
04-12-2020, 05:40 PM
I am trying to read Golo Brdo by Filipovic. Google docs is having a horrible time translating it. Is there any other translation software that can be used?

I did find this map in the book interesting.

It includes Gjorica to the North and Ternova to the West as within the boundaries, which are the traditional boundaries referred by Mehmet Hasani. It makes sense given how widespread Cami is in Gjorica. Have Cami been tested?

https://i.ibb.co/gM0cdHj/glbrd.png
I do not know of any other good translation service to be honest, perhaps you could try and ask one of the Serbian users or a user that is fluent in Serbian to translate.

I do not believe that a Cami from the region itself has tested, however one from Debar (Dibra e Madhe) in North Macedonia has tested as J2b-PH1751+. I believe that he is probably from the same fis as the Cami from Albania given that there was a migration of Albanians from this region to Debar.

Keqa
04-12-2020, 06:45 PM
Learn the alphabet first and then feed it into a google translator.

trdbr1234
04-13-2020, 04:37 PM
I do not know of any other good translation service to be honest, perhaps you could try and ask one of the Serbian users or a user that is fluent in Serbian to translate.

I do not believe that a Cami from the region itself has tested, however one from Debar (Dibra e Madhe) in North Macedonia has tested as J2b-PH1751+. I believe that he is probably from the same fis as the Cami from Albania given that there was a migration of Albanians from this region to Debar.

I might try what Keqi proposed. Dividing the pages into more comprehensible sections, as the google translator doesn't register broken words at end of sentence as one. Half the page is currently incomprehensible.

From what I read a while ago, a branch of Cami settled in Hotishan(Otishani along Debar lake). Otishani is within the Debar municipality in Macedonia. Which would make them natives of Diber Madhe. Not necessarily migrated there recently.

It would also be interesting to figure out when Otishani was established as a village in the region. The etymology of the name, as we discussed, has its roots with Hoti. Hotishan, Hotis-jan. If the village is older than first mention of Hoti, then Hoti may have its origins from this village. If not, then this village was established from travelers from Hoti. Which might explain the presence of the "Hoti" J2b in the region.

Kelmendasi
04-13-2020, 05:54 PM
I might try what Keqi proposed. Dividing the pages into more comprehensible sections, as the google translator doesn't register broken words at end of sentence as one. Half the page is currently incomprehensible.

From what I read a while ago, a branch of Cami settled in Hotishan(Otishani along Debar lake). Otishani is within the Debar municipality in Macedonia. Which would make them natives of Diber Madhe. Not necessarily migrated there recently.

It would also be interesting to figure out when Otishani was established as a village in the region. The etymology of the name, as we discussed, has its roots with Hoti. Hotishan, Hotis-jan. If the village is older than first mention of Hoti, then Hoti may have its origins from this village. If not, then this village was established from travelers from Hoti. Which might explain the presence of the "Hoti" J2b in the region.
Do you know more about the origin of the Cami? From what I have read it seems that they are pretty widespread across Dibėr.

About Hotishani, I'll try to find some literature on the history of the village or the etymology of the name. Personally I think it's pretty much confirmed that the Hoti have origin around Plav or their current area in Malėsi given that their earliest mentions are in those regions and oral tradition also seems to back this up. Recently a sample from North Macedonia with origin from around Bulqizė has done BigY and it turns out that the J2b-L283 in Dibėr that is related to that of the Hoti is actually J2b-Y21878+, this means that they share a common ancestor with the Hoti ~3,600 years ago.

Bruzmi
04-13-2020, 06:07 PM
I might try what Keqi proposed. Dividing the pages into more comprehensible sections, as the google translator doesn't register broken words at end of sentence as one. Half the page is currently incomprehensible.

From what I read a while ago, a branch of Cami settled in Hotishan(Otishani along Debar lake). Otishani is within the Debar municipality in Macedonia. Which would make them natives of Diber Madhe. Not necessarily migrated there recently.

It would also be interesting to figure out when Otishani was established as a village in the region. The etymology of the name, as we discussed, has its roots with Hoti. Hotishan, Hotis-jan. If the village is older than first mention of Hoti, then Hoti may have its origins from this village. If not, then this village was established from travelers from Hoti. Which might explain the presence of the "Hoti" J2b in the region.

No, Hoti doesn't come from this region. Hoti's origin is exhaustively documented here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)#Origins) Hoti is first mentioned in 1330 in Plav-Gucia and in 1416 in its historical location around Lake Shkodra. So, the movement would have been from Hoti or some other area people with Hoti origins lived to this area. Frankly though, I don't see any this as possible.

Hotishani existed at least since 1467. It is mentioned in the defter of Dibra in 1467. I think that the name is just a coincidence of sounding alike a bit. The suffix here is -ani, so Slavic Hotish- is the root. If you want to look for a village actually related to Hoti in this region look to Hotesh instead https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hotesh,+Albania/@41.6325241,20.2640246,11z/

Kelmendasi
04-13-2020, 06:15 PM
No, Hoti doesn't come from this region. Hoti's origin is exhaustively documented here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)#Origins) Hoti is first mentioned in 1330 in Plav-Gucia and in 1416 in its historical location around Lake Shkodra. So, the movement would have been from Hoti or some other area people with Hoti origins lived to this area. Frankly though, I don't see any this as possible.

Hotishani existed at least since 1467. It is mentioned in the defter of Dibra in 1467. I think that the name is just a coincidence of sounding alike a bit. The suffix here is -ani, so Slavic Hotish- is the root. If you want to look for a village actually related to Hoti in this region look to Hotesh instead https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hotesh,+Albania/@41.6325241,20.2640246,11z/
In regards to villages in Dibėr that are related to Hoti, there is a village called Hoti in the region of Lurė. An actual connection to the Hoti is likely as they have tested as R-Z2705 and seem to match a guy from Ratkoc in Kosovo who claims origin from Hoti. I believe that there is also a guy from Tropojė who matches these two, he traces his origin to the Hoti of Plav. It's likely that this line represents that of the anas population of Hot.

trdbr1234
04-13-2020, 06:27 PM
Do you know more about the origin of the Cami? From what I have read it seems that they are pretty widespread across Dibėr.

About Hotishani, I'll try to find some literature on the history of the village or the etymology of the name. Personally I think it's pretty much confirmed that the Hoti have origin around Plav or their current area in Malėsi given that their earliest mentions are in those regions and oral tradition also seems to back this up. Recently a sample from North Macedonia with origin from around Bulqizė has done BigY and it turns out that the J2b-L283 in Dibėr that is related to that of the Hoti is actually J2b-Y21878+, this means that they share a common ancestor with the Hoti ~3,600 years ago.

I read a while ago in Gazeta Dibra an article "Mbi Camajt......" From what I remember, the article stated their line may have migrated from Peshkopia area - to Diber Madhe - to the Golloborde region. A timeline I remember was 300-400 years ago. (My memory of historical details is horrible, so I may have some things wrong). However, this was a may.

I do know that the greatest density of Camajt (Cami) are in Vicisht, Diber. They are spread out from this location. You find them in Trebisht, Ostren, and ofcourse Gjorica. But they are spread out in rest of Diber as well. Cami, along with Koci, are in my opinion the two most numerous fis in the region, with the greatest diversity. I would bet, given the diversity of this fis in the region, that they do not originate from anywhere, but you never know.

Tefta Cami has written a book on Camajt, I believe.


Yeah, I just read the article on gjenetika. It seems that they are not closely related.

http://www.gjenetika.com/j-y21878cluster-a/

http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/J-Y21878.png



Testi i thellė zbuloi qė pėrbėjnė njė degėzim tė veēantė brenda degės J-Z638, mė specifikisht nėn J-Y21878 apo J-CTS5789 nė FamilyTreeDNA. Pra, i njejti degėzim ku janė fisi Hoti i Malėsisė sė Madhe, mirėpo lidhja me to ėshtė rreth 3700 vjet me parė, ku nėn J-Y21878 ‘Hoti Cluster’ janė nėn J-CTS11100 kurse ky nėngrup formon degė paralele dhe tė veēantė. Njėkohėsisht, ky test rrit variancėn e degės J-Z638 nė Shqipėri veriore. Pra, edhe mė tej pėrforcon tezėn qė J-Z638 u zgjerua (~4200 vjet mė parė) nga Ballkani perėndimor, ndoshta pikėrisht rreth Shqipėrisė sė sotme veriore. Nėse nė tė ardhmen merr test tė thellė edhe njė tjetėr nga J-Y21878>Cluster A, do tė zbulohen mutacionet e degėzimit qė pėrcaktojnė kėtė nėngrup.

I testuari i pėrket fisit Keta. Sipas informacioneve nga i testuari dhe shkrimeve qė kemi hasur, origjinėn mė tė largėt e kanė nga fshati Keta, qė gjendet nė njė zonė malore nė pjesėn jugore tė krahinės sė Matit. Bazuar nga Y-37, distanca gjenetike midis tė testuarėve nga ky nėngrup nuk ėshtė e lartė, rreth 1000 vjet (+/-500) deri tek paraardhėsi i pėrbashkėt. Sipas gojėdhėnave, fisi Ēeliku i Kėrēovės qė poashtu gjenden nė kėtė nėngrup, e kanė prejardhjen nga Bulqiza, pra jo larg fshatit Keta. Nisur nga shpėrndarja e kufizuar gjeografike dhe distanca gjenetike e ngushtė, origjina e kėtij nėngrupi duhet te jetė ne zonėn Mati jugor- Dibėr. Dhe duke u bazuar nga izolimi dhe vjetėrsia e degėzimit, me shumė mundėsi me prejardhje mė tė largėt nga fis autokton Ilir i kėsaj zone.

trdbr1234
04-13-2020, 06:42 PM
No, Hoti doesn't come from this region. Hoti's origin is exhaustively documented here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)#Origins) Hoti is first mentioned in 1330 in Plav-Gucia and in 1416 in its historical location around Lake Shkodra. So, the movement would have been from Hoti or some other area people with Hoti origins lived to this area. Frankly though, I don't see any this as possible.

Hotishani existed at least since 1467. It is mentioned in the defter of Dibra in 1467. I think that the name is just a coincidence of sounding alike a bit. The suffix here is -ani, so Slavic Hotish- is the root. If you want to look for a village actually related to Hoti in this region look to Hotesh instead https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hotesh,+Albania/@41.6325241,20.2640246,11z/


I have read the Hoti wiki. I am not disputing any of it.

That would be a big coincidence. hot -isht and hot-esht, are faily identical. One past and other present tense. I do not believe the etymology of this village is Slavic.

Unless the root Hot, is Slavic itself.

Keqa
04-13-2020, 07:19 PM
Actually it’s not impossible for Hoti to have their origin further south, not specifically Diber but maybe perhaps from Kukes and the regions adjacent to it. Hoti i fisit belonging to Y166564 that is.

We have few results from further south that belong to their cluster, and non from Malesi e Madhe besides their fis. A Kryeziu for example from Kaēanik is not that closely related to them either, he might push their tmrca up to 1000ybp. Unfortunately I don’t know much about their origin besides ‘Malesi’ but judging by the fis they belong to they might hail from Puke or around there. Hopefully they upgrade in the near future so we get to really see their distance.

Kelmendasi
04-13-2020, 07:31 PM
Actually it’s not impossible for Hoti to have their origin further south, not specifically Diber but maybe perhaps from Kukes and the regions adjacent to it. Hoti i fisit belonging to Y166564 that is.

We have few results from further south that belong to their cluster, and non from Malesi e Madhe besides their fis. A Kryeziu for example from Kaēanik is not that closely related to them either, he might push their tmrca up to 1000ybp. Unfortunately I don’t know much about their origin besides ‘Malesi’ but judging by the fis they belong to they might hail from Puke or around there. Hopefully they upgrade in the near future so we get to really see their distance.
That is possible, there are also two Y166564+ samples from the region of Luma in Kukės. I've seen on Gjenetika that the Hoti form a new branch, Y166564>FT124757, and that they share a common ancestor ~550 years ago (the late 15th century). This is rather interesting since we know that in the defter of 1485 we find a certain Stanash Keqi as well as the village of Bankeq.

Keqa
04-13-2020, 07:36 PM
That is possible, there are also two Y166564+ samples from the region of Luma in Kukės. I've seen on Gjenetika that the Hoti form a new branch, Y166564>FT124757, and that they share a common ancestor ~550 years ago (the late 15th century). This is rather interesting since we know that in the defter of 1485 we find a certain Stanash Keqi as well as the village of Bankeq.

Correct, recently another Hoti from Rapshe upgraded and that’s their tmrca, give or take. From the Gjonaj brotherhood. While the the other fella is Gojēaj from Traboin. As I had predicted a while back.

Exercitus
04-13-2020, 08:06 PM
Xhelal Ylli in ; Das slavische Lehngut im Albanischen Teil 2 Ortsnamen, (it's available, you can download it and translate with google translate) lists all the slavic (or probable slavic !) toponymy in Albania. Regarding Hoti he proposes a Albanian origin but doesn't exclude neither a slavic one.

37140

trdbr1234
04-13-2020, 08:35 PM
Xhelal Ylli in ; Das slavische Lehngut im Albanischen Teil 2 Ortsnamen, (it's available, you can download it and translate with google translate) lists all the slavic (or probable slavic !) toponymy in Albania. Regarding Hoti he proposes a Albanian origin but doesn't exclude neither a slavic one.

37140

Seems that the original name is Hoteshi.

Mapped out the placenames with Hot

https://i.imgur.com/YjaiM3m.png


Given that these place-names likely predate the establishment of Hoti as a tribe, I find it more likely that Hoti developed as a regional identity around Plav, and not as a transhumance tribe. Otherwise the explanation for all the Hoti place-names cannot be connected to Hoti as a tribe. Origin of Hoti from one of these other Hoti placenames in the same fashion cannot be ruled out either, however.

It is not clear how and where the etymology of Hot comes from.

Bruzmi
04-13-2020, 08:54 PM
They're not related though. Hotesh has Hot- as root with the suffix -esh. Hotishani has Hotish- as root and -ani as suffix. They really just sound the same on a superficial level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotonj Bosnia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotovlja Slovenia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotovo Bulgaria

Most things that happened in historical times show up somewhere be it archives, linguistic evidence or Y DNA lineage. If something shows up nowhere, it probably never happened.

Exercitus
04-13-2020, 08:54 PM
I agree, we should not strictly associate the etymology of a tribe's name or a toponym with the ethnic origin (for instance look the cases of Krasniqi or Berisha !!). What really matters in this kind of topics it's the Y-DNA !!

Although i must piont out the fact that the Medieval Onomastics constituate a important tool to establish (approximately!) the ethnicity of certain communities, taking in consideration also the context in which they lived !!

trdbr1234
04-13-2020, 09:35 PM
They're not related though. Hotesh has Hot- as root with the suffix -esh. Hotishani has Hotish- as root and -ani as suffix. They really just sound the same on a superficial level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotonj Bosnia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotovlja Slovenia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotovo Bulgaria

Most things that happened in historical times show up somewhere be it archives, linguistic evidence or Y DNA lineage. If something shows up nowhere, it probably never happened.

Suffix doesnt say anything about the etymology of the name. From the source Exercitus posted, the original name of the village is Hoteshi. The -ani suffix may be a modern inclusion or an ever evolving adaptation. The more suffix adaptations there are and the the more syntax changes there are, evidence would indicate the older the habitation is in respect to the others. I am unsure what is superficial about it.

All those suffixes indicate the presence of an entity of Hot. Hot-onje, Hot-ovde, Hot-ovo, which are common suffixes among Slavic nations, further indicating that modern Hoti is not a result of transhumance migration through time, but a regional identity through an entity called Hot, likely the village of Hoti in Plav.

Keqa
04-13-2020, 09:43 PM
Yeah, for sure. Gruda is another such a case, a toponym that evolved into a tribal name.

J Man
04-15-2020, 06:17 PM
New version of the Albanian DNA Project has some interesting results in it. From the village of Shengjin Fan Mirdite.

Boēi Fan Lezhė Shqipėri J2a-M410>L24>L25
Boēi Fan Lezhė Shqipėri J2a-M410>L24>L25
Biba Fan Lezhė Shqipėri J2a-M410>L24>L25
Noka Fan Lezhė Shqipėri J2a-M410>L24>L25
Bushati Fan Lezhė Shqipėri J2a-M410>L24>L25

http://rrenjet.com/databaza-publike/

Interesting to note that according to the traditions of the village of Shengjin in Fan Mirdite the Bushati family is supposed to have been there first and is not supposed to be related to the others yet the Bushati man that tested matches perfectly with the others that are said to have arrived later and descend from an ancestor named Gjin. The families that descend from Gjin do not intermarry with the Bushati family though and I was told that the reason for this was that the families that descend from Gjin considered the Bushati family to be weak and not good warriors so according to one guy from Shengjin that is why they did not intermarry.

Bruzmi
04-15-2020, 06:48 PM
Suffix doesnt say anything about the etymology of the name. From the source Exercitus posted, the original name of the village is Hoteshi. The -ani suffix may be a modern inclusion or an ever evolving adaptation. The more suffix adaptations there are and the the more syntax changes there are, evidence would indicate the older the habitation is in respect to the others. I am unsure what is superficial about it.

All those suffixes indicate the presence of an entity of Hot. Hot-onje, Hot-ovde, Hot-ovo, which are common suffixes among Slavic nations, further indicating that modern Hoti is not a result of transhumance migration through time, but a regional identity through an entity called Hot, likely the village of Hoti in Plav.

They indicate just that though: that they sound similar. You can't go on and say that every single Hot-suffix toponym is related to the others. You have to have actual historical evidence for this. Are the Hotarani toponyms of Romania related to any of this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot%C4%83rani

We're getting into the territory of pseudo-etymology if we make such assumptions without research. If anyone here was to try this sort of reasoning in writing a paper that would get published in a journal (not some random blog) it wouldn't work. We all mean well here, but we should also be careful in our assumptions.

I also read this about Hoti "Pra, sipas kėtyre testeve, paraardhėsi i fundit i dy Hotjanėve nė fjalė ka jetuar para rreth 550 vitesh. Sipas gojėdhėnave, keto dy vėllazėri pėrpiqen tek paraardhėsi i fundit i fisit Hoti, gjegjėsisht Gegė Lazri. " on http://www.gjenetika.com/j-cts11100y166564ft124757-hoti-cluster/

I think that buries once more all the ridiculous Durham-Elsie claim that Hoti settled in the region in 1520. Of course, this was something already known since ...1913 in all relevant bibliography and nobody used Durham (except for Elsie) as a credible historical-anthropological source. It was only on the internet that Durham's pseudo-theories became popular and were used as "proven truth" because they were readily available in comparison to actual research in scientific journals behind paywalls. Maybe you guys should now change this article http://www.gjenetika.com/fisi-hoti and get rid of Durham's theories.

trdbr1234
04-15-2020, 07:15 PM
I am also interested to know if there is any deeper testing on:

Pustina Rajoni jugp. Maqedoni I2a-L460>P37>CTS595

Pustina is a large fis from Golloborde. This seems to be a western I2a?

I would be interested to know if this line matches TMRCA with L1029 "Diber" cluster

Keqa
04-15-2020, 07:35 PM
New version of the Albanian DNA Project has some interesting results in it. From the village of Shengjin Fan Mirdite.

Boēi Fan Lezhė Shqipėri J2a-M410>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Boēi Fan Lezhė Shqipėri J2a-M410>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Biba Fan Lezhė Shqipėri J2a-M410>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Noka Fan Lezhė Shqipėri J2a-M410>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Bushati Fan Lezhė Shqipėri J2a-M410>L24>L25>Z387>L70

http://rrenjet.com/databaza-publike/

Interesting to note that according to the traditions of the village of Shengjin in Fan Mirdite the Bushati family is supposed to have been there first and is not supposed to be related to the others yet the Bushati man that tested matches perfectly with the others that are said to have arrived later and descend from an ancestor named Gjin. The families that descend from Gjin do not intermarry with the Bushati family though and I was told that the reason for this was that the families that descend from Gjin considered the Bushati family to be weak and not good warriors so according to one guy from Shengjin that is why they did not intermarry.
It’s not a new version of the Albanian project. Basically a politician who was helping us collect sample decided to withdraw from our project and created his own.

His data can’t be trusted. I caught him manipulating data multiple times.

Kelmendasi
04-15-2020, 07:48 PM
I am also interested to know if there is any deeper testing on:

Pustina Rajoni jugp. Maqedoni I2a-L460>P37>CTS595

Pustina is a large fis from Golloborde. This seems to be a western I2a?

I would be interested to know if this line matches TMRCA with L1029 "Diber" cluster
This family seems to be primarily based in the town of Debar and have been there since the 19th century, revolutionaries Sefedin and Ali Pustina were both from this family. From where in Gollobordė do they come from?

I2a-CTS595 is a basal branch under P37 that does indeed have a more western spread. CTS595 itself has been found in Chalcolithic and Copper Age samples from Portugal. CTS595>L158+ samples have been found in a sample from Mesolithic Sweden as well as multiple samples from Bronze Age and Copper Age Spain, Italy and even a Bell Beaker sample from Hungary. Pretty clear that this group is associated with the early cultures of Western Europe.

trdbr1234
04-15-2020, 08:14 PM
They indicate just that though: that they sound similar. You can't go on and say that every single Hot-suffix toponym is related to the others. You have to have actual historical evidence for this. Are the Hotarani toponyms of Romania related to any of this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot%C4%83rani

We're getting into the territory of pseudo-etymology if make such assumptions without research. If anyone here was to try this sort of reasoning in writing a paper that would get published in a journal (not some random blog) it wouldn't work. We all mean well here, but we should also be careful in our assumptions.

I also read this about Hoti "Pra, sipas kėtyre testeve, paraardhėsi i fundit i dy Hotjanėve nė fjalė ka jetuar para rreth 550 vitesh. Sipas gojėdhėnave, keto dy vėllazėri pėrpiqen tek paraardhėsi i fundit i fisit Hoti, gjegjėsisht Gegė Lazri. " on http://www.gjenetika.com/j-cts11100y166564ft124757-hoti-cluster/

I think that buries once more all the ridiculous Durham-Elsie claim that Hoti settled in the region in 1520. Of course, this was something already known since ...1913 in all relevant bibliography and nobody used Durham (except for Elsie) as a credible historical-anthropological source. It was only on the internet that Durham's pseudo-theories became popular and were used as "proven truth" because they were readily available in comparison to actual research in scientific journals behind paywalls. Maybe you guys should now change this article http://www.gjenetika.com/fisi-hoti and get rid of Durham's theories.

It is hard to make the root of Hot sound similar through convergence evolution. What word do you start with to converge at Hot? They are in my opinion clearly related in some way. Maybe an ancient tribe, maybe a deity, maybe a proto-Slavic word, or proto-Illyrian. I think it is difficult to speculate why or how they share the root Hot. Of concern to us is that modern Hoti is not necessarily linked to all these place-names.

I am of-course referring to these toponyms in the vicinity of Albania, that Excercitus posted.

Himare , 1431 , Hotiste , Hot -ishte
Korce , 1431 , Hotove , Hot -ove
Carmenike , 1467 , Hotolisht , Hot -ol -isht
Peshkopi , Hotesh , Hot -esht
Golloborde, 1467, Hotesh, Hot -esht
Plav , 1485, Hot

And your stipulation that Hotishani resembles Hotesh through superficial means is incorrect. As the source Exercitus gave records Hotishani as Hoteshi 500 years ago, showing that it is not a superficial convergence.

But I agree that extrapolating this too far would be speculation.

Bruzmi
04-15-2020, 08:34 PM
It is hard to make the root of Hot sound similar through convergence evolution. What word do you start with to converge at Hot? They are in my opinion clearly related in some way. Maybe an ancient tribe, maybe a deity, maybe a proto-Slavic word, or proto-Illyrian. I think it is difficult to speculate why or how they share the root Hot. Of concern to us is that modern Hoti is not necessarily linked to all these place-names.

I am of-course referring to these toponyms in the vicinity of Albania, that Excercitus posted.

Himare , 1431 , Hotiste , Hot -ishte
Korce , 1431 , Hotove , Hot -ove
Carmenike , 1467 , Hotolisht , Hot -ol -isht
Peshkopi , Hotesh , Hot -esht
Golloborde, 1467, Hotesh, Hot -esht
Plav , 1485, Hot

They just sound the same and are written in sort of the same way today. That means nothing though in terms of possible connections. The toponym "Hotina Gora" of the Decani chrysobulls that is related to the Hoti tribe is recorded in 1330, not 1485.

Just to give you an example: Hotolisht can't be divided in a root Hot- and two suffixes -ol and then -isht. In fact, if you look for bibliography you'll see that

"Holtė (Pėrroi i Holtės) GR. Tributary of the Devoll and Seman.Related with metathesis to hydronym Hotolisht.

Hotolisht LB. Tributary of the Shkumbin. Also village toponym Hotolisht. Related with metathesis to hydronym Holtė. The same root is present in the village of Hotovė (PR)"

http://www.elsie.de/pdf/articles/A1994HydronymicaAlbania_Revised2014.pdf

trdbr1234
04-15-2020, 09:03 PM
This family seems to be primarily based in the town of Debar and have been there since the 19th century, revolutionaries Sefedin and Ali Pustina were both from this family. From where in Gollobordƫ do they come from?

I2a-CTS595 is a basal branch under P37 that does indeed have a more western spread. CTS595 itself has been found in Chalcolithic and Copper Age samples from Portugal. CTS595>L158+ samples have been found in a sample from Mesolithic Sweden as well as multiple samples from Bronze Age and Copper Age Spain, Italy and even a Bell Beaker sample from Hungary. Pretty clear that this group is associated with the early cultures of Western Europe.

Yeah, they are. Prominent and large family in Diber Madhe. They are also found in Golloborde. I would have to look at which village exactly.

Is it tested far enough to determine if it is recent?

Kelmendasi
04-15-2020, 09:29 PM
Yeah, they are. Prominent and large family in Diber Madhe. They are also found in Golloborde. I would have to look at which village exactly.

Is it tested far enough to determine if it is recent?
I do not think they have tested further, without further testing it's hard to say when this line arrived in the Balkans.

There are two samples from Croatia (from Istria and Split-Dalmatia) who are A10033>Y60701, this group split off from A10033 ~1,150 years ago and the TMRCA only lived ~550 years ago. It shares A10033 with Y23458 (A10034) which has a seemingly West and North Germanic spread. It's found in a German from Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen) and Schleswig-Holstein, a Swede from Skåne, an Englishman from northeastern England who apparently has Danish origin, a Dane and a Dutch. They share of TMRCA of ~1,000 ybp, you could perhaps link the expansion of this group with the Danish. This all suggests that Y60701 likely arrived into the Balkans with a Germanic population, however it's very possible that this line won't be found among Albanians and that Pustina belongs to a different cluster.

Keqa
04-16-2020, 03:11 PM
They indicate just that though: that they sound similar. You can't go on and say that every single Hot-suffix toponym is related to the others. You have to have actual historical evidence for this. Are the Hotarani toponyms of Romania related to any of this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot%C4%83rani

We're getting into the territory of pseudo-etymology if we make such assumptions without research. If anyone here was to try this sort of reasoning in writing a paper that would get published in a journal (not some random blog) it wouldn't work. We all mean well here, but we should also be careful in our assumptions.

I also read this about Hoti "Pra, sipas kėtyre testeve, paraardhėsi i fundit i dy Hotjanėve nė fjalė ka jetuar para rreth 550 vitesh. Sipas gojėdhėnave, keto dy vėllazėri pėrpiqen tek paraardhėsi i fundit i fisit Hoti, gjegjėsisht Gegė Lazri. " on http://www.gjenetika.com/j-cts11100y166564ft124757-hoti-cluster/

I think that buries once more all the ridiculous Durham-Elsie claim that Hoti settled in the region in 1520. Of course, this was something already known since ...1913 in all relevant bibliography and nobody used Durham (except for Elsie) as a credible historical-anthropological source. It was only on the internet that Durham's pseudo-theories became popular and were used as "proven truth" because they were readily available in comparison to actual research in scientific journals behind paywalls. Maybe you guys should now change this article http://www.gjenetika.com/fisi-hoti and get rid of Durham's theories.
Sounds like a good idea. Do you want to give it a try and compile an article since you seem very knowledgeable on Hoti? I can help with the genetic stuff if you need assistance.

Keqa
04-16-2020, 03:46 PM
As far as traditions go, most are not holding up. For example the tradition between Krasniqi and Nikaj has been confirmed. However, their distance is far greater than we could have imagined ~900ybp. Similar scenario with Shkreli, TMRCA between the fis belonging to CTS8786, who form majority in Shkrel, is ~750ybp.

trdbr1234
04-16-2020, 04:54 PM
I do not think they have tested further, without further testing it's hard to say when this line arrived in the Balkans.

There are two samples from Croatia (from Istria and Split-Dalmatia) who are A10033>Y60701, this group split off from A10033 ~1,150 years ago and the TMRCA only lived ~550 years ago. It shares A10033 with Y23458 (A10034) which has a seemingly West and North Germanic spread. It's found in a German from Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen) and Schleswig-Holstein, a Swede from Skåne, an Englishman from northeastern England who apparently has Danish origin, a Dane and a Dutch. They share of TMRCA of ~1,000 ybp, you could perhaps link the expansion of this group with the Danish. This all suggests that Y60701 likely arrived into the Balkans with a Germanic population, however it's very possible that this line won't be found among Albanians and that Pustina belongs to a different cluster.

I am wondering if there was a real Gothic influence that acted as a catalyst to Albanian ethnogenesis. I have read mention of this in Diber, in addition to Dukagjini having a "German" origin in some of the sources you mentioned. I doubt much Y-DNA legacy survives but I would keep an eye out on northern and western lineages that match a TMRCA of 1000 ybp.


I am also very interested in targeting Canka from Diber. This family descents from Stebleve and is though to be the lineage of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. There are Canka in Diber Madhe, Tirana and Elbasan.

trdbr1234
04-16-2020, 04:59 PM
As far as traditions go, most are not holding up. For example the tradition between Krasniqi and Nikaj has been confirmed. However, their distance is far greater than we could have imagined ~900ybp. Similar scenario with Shkreli, TMRCA between the fis belonging to CTS8786, who form majority in Shkrel, is ~750ybp.

I don't necessarily believe these myths are wrong. However, your mechanism for verifying them are of-course entirely flawed. You are tracing the majority Y-DNA lineage and assuming everyone else is an immigrant. You fail to understand that the initial progenitors of the clan may have been very few. The expansion of these Y-DNA haplogroups occur at random. It is complete luck. You need to look for evidence on a micro scale and not the macro you are now.

Keqa
04-16-2020, 05:10 PM
What? You’re not making any sense. You obviously understand little of what we are doing. Please just concentrate on testing more folks from your region.

trdbr1234
04-16-2020, 05:30 PM
They just sound the same and are written in sort of the same way today. That means nothing though in terms of possible connections. The toponym "Hotina Gora" of the Decani chrysobulls that is related to the Hoti tribe is recorded in 1330, not 1485.

Just to give you an example: Hotolisht can't be divided in a root Hot- and two suffixes -ol and then -isht. In fact, if you look for bibliography you'll see that

"Holtė (Pėrroi i Holtės) GR. Tributary of the Devoll and Seman.Related with metathesis to hydronym Hotolisht.

Hotolisht LB. Tributary of the Shkumbin. Also village toponym Hotolisht. Related with metathesis to hydronym Holtė. The same root is present in the village of Hotovė (PR)"

http://www.elsie.de/pdf/articles/A1994HydronymicaAlbania_Revised2014.pdf

I don't disagree with you. I am unsure what you are disagreeing with. Your reasoning makes sense. Of-course it is possible that other words converged at Hot. However, I think it is a big assumption to make that every toponym of Hot experience an independent and unrelated evolution to the root of Hot. If you believe that is the case then I think you will have stumbled onto the phenomenon that may explain the mechanisms for the Balkan Sprachbund. I don't have that imagination and prefer to take a simplistic and logical course of assuming there is a unknown relation.

trdbr1234
04-16-2020, 05:36 PM
What? You’re not making any sense. You obviously understand little of what we are doing. Please just concentrate on testing more folks from your region.

Have you learned to use the quoting button, Kosovari?

You proved my point in the previous statement you made. You continuously demonstrate a lack of common sense.

"As far as traditions go, most are not holding up. For example the tradition between Krasniqi and Nikaj has been confirmed. However, their distance is far greater than we could have imagined ~900ybp. Similar scenario with Shkreli, TMRCA between the fis belonging to CTS8786, who form majority in Shkrel, is ~750ybp."

Kelmendasi
04-16-2020, 06:01 PM
I am wondering if there was a real Gothic influence that acted as a catalyst to Albanian ethnogenesis. I have read mention of this in Diber, in addition to Dukagjini having a "German" origin in some of the sources you mentioned. I doubt much Y-DNA legacy survives but I would keep an eye out on northern and western lineages that match a TMRCA of 1000 ybp.


I am also very interested in targeting Canka from Diber. This family descents from Stebleve and is though to be the lineage of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. There are Canka in Diber Madhe, Tirana and Elbasan.
There certainly was some Germanic input that entered early Albanian-speakers, possibly even Proto-Albanians (potentially during the Late Proto-Albanian stage). In northern Albania we see that I1-Y60985+ clusters have a pretty significant presence in Pukė and it's surrounding tribal regions (Kabash, Qerret, Kēirė etc). This group formed ~1,150 years ago and the most recent common ancestor lived ~500 years ago. Seems that this group went through a founder effect as only Albanians currently belong to it. Y60985 shares Y16437 with Y16434 which is the haplogroup of some families that claim origin from the historical Macura tribe of Montenegro. I think an Ostrogothic origin of these clusters is likely.

There is also the cluster I1-Y97339 that is a distinct cluster found in Labėria which has also gone through a founder effect, the TMRCA for this group is ~1,000ybp. It is a downstream of A6397 which has clusters found across Germanic-speaking nations such as Germany, Switzerland, England etc.

Linguistically there is also some very minor Germanic input in Albanian (mainly from East Germanic), however it should be noted that many of these loans arrived via Late Latin rather than directly from a Germanic language. For example, The Albanian word shkumė (foam) is a derivative of Gothic scuma via Late Latin. Though some have also come directly, for example Albanian horrė/horr (whore or scoundrel) comes from the Gothic hōrs (adulterer or whore). Interestingly, the Albanian word burg (prison) is believed to be a derivative of the Proto-Germanic word *burgz (fortification). However, it is possible that they just share a common origin through PIE *bʰerǵʰ (high).

Keqa
04-16-2020, 06:56 PM
Have you learned to use the quoting button, Kosovari?

You proved my point in the previous statement you made. You continuously demonstrate a lack of common sense.

"As far as traditions go, most are not holding up. For example the tradition between Krasniqi and Nikaj has been confirmed. However, their distance is far greater than we could have imagined ~900ybp. Similar scenario with Shkreli, TMRCA between the fis belonging to CTS8786, who form majority in Shkrel, is ~750ybp."
Pse tenton me degjeneru cdo teme? Cka ka ne ato se cfar thashe qe nuk i kupton? I can explain it to you in detail but first I would have to know what you’re asking.

trdbr1234
04-17-2020, 04:05 PM
Pse tenton me degjeneru cdo teme? Cka ka ne ato se cfar thashe qe nuk i kupton? I can explain it to you in detail but first I would have to know what you’re asking.

Ske cfare te me shpjegosh. Vetem te riperserise ate qe shkruajta ne anglisht. Ne mungese te eshtrave gjenetike ne kohen kur keto fise jane formuar, eshte supozim i madh te mendosh se linjat aterore to sotme jane po ato qe kane formuar keto fise. Ne baze te perhapjes te shpjete te ketyre linjave nuk mund te supozosh ne asnje moment qe keto linja kan qen prezent, as edhe qe kan formuar ate fis.

trdbr1234
04-17-2020, 04:21 PM
There certainly was some Germanic input that entered early Albanian-speakers, possibly even Proto-Albanians (potentially during the Late Proto-Albanian stage). In northern Albania we see that I1-Y60985+ clusters have a pretty significant presence in Pukė and it's surrounding tribal regions (Kabash, Qerret, Kēirė etc). This group formed ~1,150 years ago and the most recent common ancestor lived ~500 years ago. Seems that this group went through a founder effect as only Albanians currently belong to it. Y60985 shares Y16437 with Y16434 which is the haplogroup of some families that claim origin from the historical Macura tribe of Montenegro. I think an Ostrogothic origin of these clusters is likely.

There is also the cluster I1-Y97339 that is a distinct cluster found in Labėria which has also gone through a founder effect, the TMRCA for this group is ~1,000ybp. It is a downstream of A6397 which has clusters found across Germanic-speaking nations such as Germany, Switzerland, England etc.

Linguistically there is also some very minor Germanic input in Albanian (mainly from East Germanic), however it should be noted that many of these loans arrived via Late Latin rather than directly from a Germanic language. For example, The Albanian word shkumė (foam) is a derivative of Gothic scuma via Late Latin. Though some have also come directly, for example Albanian horrė/horr (whore or scoundrel) comes from the Gothic hōrs (adulterer or whore). Interestingly, the Albanian word burg (prison) is believed to be a derivative of the Proto-Germanic word *burgz (fortification). However, it is possible that they just share a common origin through PIE *bʰerǵʰ (high).

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

There might be some truth to it them. Northern and Western Y-DNA lines don't conclusively prove the theory, but does support it.

Keqa
04-17-2020, 07:10 PM
Ske cfare te me shpjegosh. Vetem te riperserise ate qe shkruajta ne anglisht. Ne mungese te eshtrave gjenetike ne kohen kur keto fise jane formuar, eshte supozim i madh te mendosh se linjat aterore to sotme jane po ato qe kane formuar keto fise. Ne baze te perhapjes te shpjete te ketyre linjave nuk mund te supozosh ne asnje moment qe keto linja kan qen prezent, as edhe qe kan formuar ate fis.
I see, because you weren’t making any sense in English.


There isn’t any need, at least for now, to dig their greaves for such purpose. We have their living descendants that we can test for all the major clans and their brotherhoods. As I said, your knowledge in this field is limited. Try to do some more reading and perhaps even upgrade yourself so we can understand each other better.

trdbr1234
04-17-2020, 08:37 PM
I see, because you weren’t making any sense in English.


There isn’t any need, at least for now, to dig their greaves for such purpose. We have their living descendants that we can test for all the major clans and their brotherhoods. As I said, your knowledge in this field is limited. Try to do some more reading and perhaps even upgrade yourself so we can understand each other better.

Congratulations on learning how to quote. I was always sure you could do it.

You are an example of, knowing everything and understanding nothing.

What am I testing deeper for? The entire line of YP4278 formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 1750 ybp, with a handful of individuals concentrated in the Balkans. It is the oddest R1a line. Doesn't follow much logical pattern. Nor would me testing deeper provide any clarity what so ever.

Keqa
04-18-2020, 12:42 AM
Chances are you might remain as YP4278*, meaning you will form a parallel branch to YP4441 and Y109474 just like the samples from Czech Republic and Finland. Hard to say based on STR's alone, so It would be nice to refine your lineage and find out if you're closer to those Serbs, Bulgarians or the others here from Russia, Ukraine etc:
https://imgur.com/Imogagb

Costs a bit but I think it would be worth it. FTDNA currently are offering some sales.

trdbr1234
04-18-2020, 03:42 AM
Chances are you might remain as YP4278*, meaning you will form a parallel branch to YP14441 and Y109474 just like the samples from Czech Republic and Finland. Hard to say based on STR's alone, so It would be nice to refine your lineage and find out if you're closer to those Serbs, Bulgarians or the others here from Russia, Ukraine etc:
https://imgur.com/Imogagb

Costs a bit but I think it would be worth it. FTDNA currently are offering some sales.

And... you forget how to quote again. lol You getting old.

It might create a new branch. I am matching the Croatian in Herzegovina, whom remains my only match on FTDNA. Oddly, I am matching the Hadijata from Plovdiv on auDNA. Although Plovdiv shows high similarity to Albanians for some reason so it may be coincidence. Plovdiv is also where the Bulgarian refugees from Greece settled, which might explain their high similarity to Albanians. Specifically, Bulgarians from Thessaloniki. Thessaloniki was also a major immigration city from Diber.

I will wait a while before I test deeper. I don't see any benefit at the moment.

In the Macedonian study they released a few months ago, did you guys get all the terminal SNPs? Or did you look at only the Albanians in the study?

Keqa
04-18-2020, 02:57 PM
And... you forget how to quote again. lol You getting old.

It might create a new branch. I am matching the Croatian in Herzegovina, whom remains my only match on FTDNA. Oddly, I am matching the Hadijata from Plovdiv on auDNA. Although Plovdiv shows high similarity to Albanians for some reason so it may be coincidence. Plovdiv is also where the Bulgarian refugees from Greece settled, which might explain their high similarity to Albanians. Specifically, Bulgarians from Thessaloniki. Thessaloniki was also a major immigration city from Diber.

I will wait a while before I test deeper. I don't see any benefit at the moment.

In the Macedonian study they released a few months ago, did you guys get all the terminal SNPs? Or did you look at only the Albanians in the study?

You mean the study that includes Turks and Albanians, Jankova et al? Results have been out for some time now. I didn't see any YP4278. Your cluster is easy to spot with the low value on 458. Keep in mind her classifications SNP wise are a mess. They miss-classified many haplotypes.

PS. I forgot to mention, there is another Albanian that belongs to this cluster but he's a lot closer to those Serbs (with 459b=9) than to you. He is from lower Shkoder region.

trdbr1234
04-18-2020, 09:07 PM
You mean the study that includes Turks and Albanians, Jankova et al? Results have been out for some time now. I didn't see any YP4278. Your cluster is easy to spot with the low value on 458. Keep in mind her classifications SNP wise are a mess. They miss-classified many haplotypes.

PS. I forgot to mention, there is another Albanian that belongs to this cluster but he's a lot closer to those Serbs (with 459b=9) than to you. He is from lower Shkoder region.

Yes, Jankova. I haven't seen the results. One of the links to the study required an account with them. If you have the results, can you post them?

Yeah, I don't seem to match them exactly. There are quite a few divergences from the core group. Not sure why Pribislav suggested that. I don't match anyone closely really. I think the Czech and Hungarian are a bit closer, along with one of the Russians. But I wouldn't say anyone is particularly close. Maybe I am misinterpreting the results.

These are some of the more defining characteristics of the Serbian group, including mine on top.

Do you have all the values of the Albanian from Shkoder?

https://i.ibb.co/tXLtnrg/YP-4278.png

Keqa
04-18-2020, 10:58 PM
Yes, Jankova. I haven't seen the results. One of the links to the study required an account with them. If you have the results, can you post them?

Yeah, I don't seem to match them exactly. There are quite a few divergences from the core group. Not sure why Pribislav suggested that. I don't match anyone closely really. I think the Czech and Hungarian are a bit closer, along with one of the Russians. But I wouldn't say anyone is particularly close. Maybe I am misinterpreting the results.

These are some of the more defining characteristics of the Serbian group, including mine on top.

Do you have all the values of the Albanian from Shkoder?

I have them on excel, over 300 samples so I can't really post them here. But if you want them, I can email them to you. No you're correct, your closest matches still have 7 to 8 differences with you on only Y37, hence why I said chances of you remaining as YP4278* are high. He probably didn't see all of them and as you can see some of them are really low res as well, like 23 markers.

He is not in our project but he is close to those Serbs there, trust me.

trdbr1234
04-19-2020, 12:48 AM
I have them on excel, over 300 samples so I can't really post them here. But if you want them, I can email them to you. No you're correct, your closest matches still have 7 to 8 differences with you on only Y37, hence why I said chances of you remaining as YP4278* are high. He probably didn't see all of them and as you can see some of them are really low res as well, like 23 markers.

He is not in our project but he is close to those Serbs there, trust me.
I think it would be of interest to tally the Y-DNA markers found in the study. I think its would be a positive contribution to this thread. But I understand if it a lot of work.

I don't understand why you and Pribislav made those statement, then. You both had the values and some of the members has done Y37 tests. Yet, you both stated that the line definitely comes from Serbs in Herzegovina.

Also, The Russians seem to diverge quite a bit. I imagine the TMRCA of the clade would increase on Y-full if they were included.

Thanks for letting me know, I kind of want to verify how close myself, considering that was not the case with me.

trdbr1234
04-19-2020, 12:56 AM
Interesting article on R-L1029 on Rrenjet.com

R-L1029
Alban / March 27, 2020

http://rrenjet.com/620-2/?fbclid=IwAR0JeOTkX2NweSHUOqoFT9RdmssHupDkzi5Q5vry PdZPrXRRw-wBPJIzQb0


Rreth 2.5% e linjave atėrore shqiptare i takojnė gruipt R1a-M417>Z645>Z282>M458>L1029. Kjo linjė rreth 2100 vjeēare gjendet si te gegėt edhe te toskėt, me njė pėrqendrim pak mė tė lartė nė Bulqizė dhe disa rrethe tė jugut tė Shqipėrisė.

Mosha e degėve tė R1a-M417>M458 dhe divrsiteti i lartė i tyre nė Europėn qendrore dhe lindore sugjerojnė se pėrhapja e kėtyre linjave, pėrfshirė R-L1029, tė ketė filluar nė njė zonė mes Gjermanisė dhe Rusisė rreth Antikitetit tė vonė ose Mesjetės sė hershme. Edhe rezultatet nga eshtrat e lashta, pavarėsisht se ende tė pakta, mbėshtesin kėtė hipotezė. R1a-M417>M458 nuk ėshtė gjetur as ndėr eshtra ballkanike nga Epoka e Bronzit, as ndėr eshtra romake nga Epoka e Bronzit deri nė Mesjetė. Gjetjet mė tė vjetra tė saj vijnė nga individė vikingė ose nordikė te shek 9-13 nga Polonia, Ukraina, Danimarka, Rusia, dhe njė sllav i shek 12 nga Gjermania veri-lindore. Rezultatet nga Polonia dhe Danimarka i takojnė pikėrisht nėndegės R-L1029, kurse skeleti nga Gjermania nuk ėshtė analizuar mė thellė se deri te mutacioni M458.

Duhen ende mė shumė analiza nga eshtra ballkanike tė Epokės sė Hekurit, mirėpo gjasat janė qė R-L1029 ka mbėrritur nė Ballkan mes Antikitetit dhe Mesjetės. Duke pasur parasysh lėvizjet e shumta nė Ballkan e Europė lindore nė atė periudhė, ėshtė vėshtirė tė pėrcaktohet njė popullsi apo fis me tė cilėt tė lidhet zhvendosja e R-L1029 drejt Ballkanit. Kandidatėt kryesorė pėrshijnė sllavėt, fiset gjermanike tė Europės qendrore dhe lindore, bullgarėt dhe hungarezėt (magjarėt) e lashtė, vikingėt, etj. Ka mundėsi qė nėndegė tė ndryshme tė kenė lėvizur me popuj tė ndryshėm. Lėvizja e R-L1029 drejt trojeve shqiptare mund tė ketė ndodhur nė disa valė e nga disa drejtime, por duke qenė se larmia dhe dendėsia e saj ėshtė mė e lartė nė Bullgari se nė ish-Jugosllavi, duket se shumica e nėndegėve kanė mbėrritur nga drejtimi i lindjes.

Nga rezultatet e testeve tė anėtarėve tė projektit Rrėnjėt, kemi zbuluar se ekzistojnė tė paktėn dy nėndegė tė R-L1029 mbi 1000 vjeēare qė deri sot janė gjetur vetėm ndėr shqiptarė. Njėra prej nėndegėve, R-L1029>Y133383, me moshė rreth 1100 vjeēare, ėshtė e pėrqendruar kryesisht nė rrethin e Bulqizės, nga ku duket se ėshtė pėrhapur edhe drejt rretheve tė tjera nė veri dhe jug tė Shqipėrisė, si dhe ndėr shqiptarėt e Maqedonisė. Nėndega tjetėr, R-L1029>YP263>MF93145 ka pėrhapje nė njė zonė mė jugore. Edhe kjo nėndegė ka filluar tė pėrhapet qė nė Mesjetėn e hershme, para rreth 1300-1400 vitesh. Ekzistojnė edhe linja tė paklasifikuara mė thellė se R-L1029, tė shpėrndara pak a shumė nė tė gjitha trojet shqiptare, si dhe nė diasporė. Ka mundėsi qė njė pjesė e kėtyre anėtarėve tė zbulojnė se i pėrkasin njėrės prej dy nėndegėve tė lartpėrmendura, ose tė formojnė nėndegė tė reja mes tyre, nėse pėrmirėsojnė rezolucionin e testit tė kryer. Me tė dhėnat e deritanishme, mund tė hamendėsojmė se linja atėrore tė R-L1029 kanė qenė pjesė e integruar e proto-shqiptarėve tė paktėn qė nė Mesjetėn e hershme, dhe gjasat janė qė tė kenė marrė pjesė nė proēeset formėsuan popullsinė Arbėrore qė shfaqet nė burime historike nga shek 11.

http://rrenjet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/R-L1029-tree-1.02.png http://rrenjet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/R-L1029-harte.png

I think it is well written and fair.

Keqa
04-19-2020, 02:19 PM
Article is vague and misleading.

Dibran
04-19-2020, 02:49 PM
Article is vague and misleading.

According to you. As far as I know, dealing in absolutes absent evidence is misleading.

Being a little vague is warranted absent ADNA which appears to be forthcoming.

It most likely spread with Slavs and other central east European tribes from the early middle ages.

Not sure what's so misleading?

Keqa
04-19-2020, 04:33 PM
According to you. As far as I know, dealing in absolutes absent evidence is misleading.

Being a little vague is warranted absent ADNA which appears to be forthcoming.

It most likely spread with Slavs and other central east European tribes from the early middle ages.

Not sure what's so misleading?
For starters, without getting into other more complex stuff, vast majority of L1029 example, if not all, from ‘Rrethi i Bulqizes’ actually come from the enthographic region traditionally known as Gollobord - a region known for its bilingualism.

If that’s the purpose of this article, to be as vague as possible, then that’s another matter. But, I would expect guys like you who have been in this field for quite some time to pick that up.

trdbr1234
04-19-2020, 05:09 PM
For starters, without getting into other more complex stuff, vast majority of L1029 example, if not all, from ‘Rrethi i Bulqizes’ actually come from the enthographic region traditionally known as Gollobord - a region known for its bilingualism.

If that’s the purpose of this article, to be as vague as possible, then that’s another matter. But, I would expect guys like you who have been in this field for quite some time to pick that up.

60% of your lines from "Maqedoni" and Diber Madhe specifically have their origins in Golloborde. Shows the influence this region has had in terms of population movements. And not vice-versa as you often like to stipulate. Whether the region has always been bilingual is a matter of discussion. I am impartial to this last point and there is evidence of both. However, it should be of note that regardless of this fact, as can be evidenced by the Y-DNA lines as well as auDNA, this region has influenced Albanians to a great degree. Coupled with the fact that the lines from this region seems to have a uniform distribution among Albanians with a founding affect that precedes the ethnogenesis of Albanians, we can speculate that Proto-Albanian, from a geographic standpoint, evolved either just bordering the ethnographic region of Golloborde or the region itself was part of the founding of Proto-Albanians.

Also the villages that R-L1029 seems to be clustered around Okshtun are not bilingual. They are in fact Albanian speaking and have been so for as long as memory serves. In addition, the ethnographic identity of Golloborde in the far west of this region has been lost. It exists mostly on academic references.

I am unsure what you getting at and what you are trying to prove.

Dibran
04-19-2020, 05:22 PM
For starters, without getting into other more complex stuff, vast majority of L1029 example, if not all, from ‘Rrethi i Bulqizes’ actually come from the enthographic region traditionally known as Gollobord - a region known for its bilingualism.

If that’s the purpose of this article, to be as vague as possible, then that’s another matter. But, I would expect guys like you who have been in this field for quite some time to pick that up.

First of all let's get one thing straight, Okshtun is not bilingual. my family only spoke Albanian as far as they remember, including theirs before them.

Secondly my haplotype is only found in Albanians. Any relation to fellow related L1029 or even historically recent Bulgarians for that matter predate the migration era by 600 years pending a precursor lineage bridging the gap yet to be discovered in our neighbors. Even Michal stressed this fact that it is an Albanian founder effect. Maybe from first contact in east Albania.

It's also not exclusively from Bulqize. It is found in Kercove, In Diber Madhe, in Gostivar and in the South Albania. Various studies including the recent Macedonia study only had one L1029 match my cluster and they were Albanian.

I have never been one to claim my line has anything to do with paleo Balkan tribes. On the contrary it arrived from Central and Eastern Europe since the early middle ages. I know more my haplotype than you do. You obviously have little care or attention for minority ydna in Albanians. Proto Albanian went through various stages of development.

L1029 among other northern lineages were already entering during the middle to late proto Albanian stage of development. There are more than 3 Y chromosomes in early medieval Albanians. Despite what your agenda may be otherwise. I dont see people trying to downplay Albanian origin for some I1, J1, J2a clades etc.

You already know all of this though Skerdi. Its obvious your his sock. It's also obvious you're being sour about the project split.

Insulting peoples characters and intentions whilst simultaneously trying to syphon Diber kits from me and getting snooty when I refused.

Bring me all these recent Bulgarian matches in my cluster if it's of recent Bulgarian extraction.

Otherwise dont give me your opinion. Because that's all it is. Everyone has one.

Keqa
04-19-2020, 05:22 PM
That's a gross overestimation. Golloborda definitely has influenced western Macedonia and central Albania, I would 100% agree, but definitely not to that extent. Influence though flowed in both directions, in and out without any doubt. I am not sure about proto-Albanian thing, you might be pushing it a bit. From my observation, from the limited samples I have studied, these lineages don't correspond well to proto-Albanian expansion. Some might, who knows, but still remains to be seen.

Yes, I did say that in this very thread that Okshtun are Albanian speaking only and have been as such every since they can remember.

Not trying to prove anything besides stating the obvious, that the article you posed is vague and misleading.

Dibran
04-19-2020, 05:32 PM
That's a gross overestimation. Golloborda definitely has influenced western Macedonia and central Albania, I would 100% agree, but definitely not to that extent. Influenced though flowed in both directions, in and out without any doubt. I am not sure about proto-Albanian thing, you might be pushing it a bit. From my observation, from the limited samples I have studied, these lineages don't correspond well to proto-Albanian expansion. Some might, who knows, but still remains to be seen.

Yes, I did say that in this very thread that Okshtun are Albanian speaking only and have been as such every since they can remember.

Not trying to prove anything besides stating the obvious, that the article you posed is vague and misleading.

You said more wrong than right. Especially regarding your assertion about my haplotype which you either know nothing about or just don't care to acknowledge.

Either way it doesnt make you an authority on every y chromosome and their various descendants. After all, you're not an actual scientist in any right. Dont forget that.