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Keqa
04-19-2020, 06:09 PM
Yes Keqa, what Dibran said above.

You are not a straight shooter. You manipulate facts to fit your agenda. It is more than apparent.

Although I do have hope in you as you do have a great deal of knowledge. Removing your biases and agendas would make conversations with you much more pleasant.

You would otherwise not elect a name that would subconsciously reflect your inner wronging. Keqi! ;)

Thank you for the kind words lol

Keqa was my most distant ancestor that we can trace, bud. Hence the username. A typical Gheg patronym if you didn't know.

trdbr1234
04-19-2020, 06:19 PM
Thank you for the kind words lol

Keqa was my most distant ancestor that we can trace, bud. Hence the username. A typical Gheg patronym if you didn't know.

No problem. Always willing to help my fellow Kosovars :D

Sure, I don't doubt it. But you do show more than a few signs of subconscious guilt. Including your abhorrible avatars. I am confident you have the capability to understand your mistakes.

It is Orthodox Easter today. So maybe today is the day you reflect a bit :P

Sorcelow
04-19-2020, 06:40 PM
Does anyone have any further subclade information for this guy?

Tapia Vllah Berat, Shqiperi I1-M253

trdbr1234
04-19-2020, 07:11 PM
We are not sure when bilingualism was established there, but we can guess that it definitely predates Ottomans. Yes, and that's what I was hinting at when I mentioned that specific village not being bilingual.

I am well aware of all the samples but still it's a fairly young cluster. The tmrca you're mentioning is just an approximate based on STRs. While you waste time here by offending me, and testing individual SNPs, it would be better if you can actually upgrade your most distant haplotype so we can really get to know the age of this cluster...

Actually evidence is not conclusive when bilingualism of the region started. Mehmet Hasani mentions that the Slavic tongue(Although present to some degree) was compounded during the Serbian oppression in the 1913-1920's. He stipulates that this period of time compounded the usage of the Slavic language. Some other authors with a Macedonian perspective make the argument that the Churches used the Macedonian variant of Bulgarian and it must have been present in the region prior to this.

I don't fully agree with either but the truth is somewhere in the middle. There is uncertainty about the usage of the language. It is definitely not certain what language was used pre-Ottomans.

Kelmendasi
04-20-2020, 05:32 PM
I saw on the E-PH2180 page of the other project that an actual member of the prominent Bushati family has tested as E-PH2180>FT176420 http://rrenjet.com/e-v13ph2180/. They form this cluster with a guy from the anas Ponari brotherhood of Krasniqi who are unrelated to the other branches of Krasniq and are believed to be among the oldest brotherhoods of Malėsia e Gjakovės, though they are thought to have arrived from the lowlands of Shkodra a couple hundred years ago. They share a common ancestor ~1,200 years ago.

This is interesting as multiple individuals with the surname Bushati have tested and almost all belonged to different haplogroups, it was also uncertain who was from the actual aristocratic family. As for the origin of the family itself, they are believed to have come from the Begaj or Begani brotherhood of Bushat which converted to Islam during the 17th century. Interestingly a certain Aleks Begani is recorded in the cadaster of Venetian Scutari in 1416-17 as having held lands around Shkodėr and the village of Balldre in Lezhė. We can assume that this individual is the oldest known ancestor of the family. There were other theories in regards to the origin of this family, however they were pushed due to certain political agendas of the time and are most likely false. For example, Kara Mahmud Pasha fabricated an origin from the Crnojević family in order to legitimise his claims in Montenegro as he was planning to expand into the region. Later during the Albanian national movement an origin from the Medieval Dukagjini family was fabricated.

Bruzmi
04-20-2020, 09:31 PM
Hey guys, hope you're all well! Also - chill, we're all here to work together towards a common understanding

I think that the Bushati were once a "bashkėsi" (roughly meaning, a fis without territoriality), so when they founded those villages named Bushat they didn't form them in the fis mode of spatial organization aka as a one-fis only territory, so it's really difficult to figure out today who is Old Bushati and who isn't. My guess as to how to do that would be to compare them with the Piperi about whom we know that a part comes from the original Bushati tribe.

Aleks Begani looks a bit unlikely to be old Bushati or related to the Bushati family (if they're not related to Old Bushati) for a variety of reasons but mainly the fact that Begaj means son of Bey which couldn't have existed since 1416 in Albania, so a connection via anthroponymy isn't possible IMO.

Here's an article about the very small fis of Gruemiri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruemiri) in terms of territory, but large influence in the Sandzak. The Rexhepagaj of Plav, Montenegro (now, Redžepagić-Rexhepagiqi) moved to Plav in the beginning of the 1650s where their ancestor took the Muslim name Veli when he converted. Rexhep Aga who gave the name to the family was a great-great-grandson of Veli. The Shabanagaj (now also known as Šabanagić) were related via marriage with the Bushati family of Shkodra. Shaban Aga, their eponymous ancestor was the son-in-law of Sulejman Pasha Bushati, sanjakbey of Shkodra. He was sent in Gusinje as the commander of the fortress around 1690. The Shabanagaj family owned large estates in Berane. Ali Pasha of Gusinje, commander of the League of Prizren was a Shabanagaj and Jashar Rexhepagiq, pedagogue in Kosovo, was a Rexhepagaj.

Are there any results from any of these areas in any project?

Kelmendasi
04-20-2020, 10:01 PM
Hey guys, hope you're all well! Also - chill, we're all here to work together towards a common understanding

I think that the Bushati were once a "bashkėsi" (roughly meaning, a fis without territoriality), so when they founded those villages named Bushat they didn't form them in the fis mode of spatial organization aka as a one-fis only territory, so it's really difficult to figure out today who is Old Bushati and who isn't. My guess as to how to do that would be to compare them with the Piperi about whom we know that a part comes from the original Bushati tribe.

Aleks Begani looks a bit unlikely to be old Bushati or related to the Bushati family (if they're not related to Old Bushati) for a variety of reasons but mainly the fact that Begaj means son of Bey which couldn't have existed since 1416 in Albania, so a connection via anthroponymy isn't possible IMO.

Here's an article about the very small fis of Gruemiri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruemiri) in terms of territory, but large influence in the Sandzak. The Rexhepagaj of Plav, Montenegro (now, Redžepagić-Rexhepagiqi) moved to Plav in the beginning of the 1650s where their ancestor took the Muslim name Veli when he converted. Rexhep Aga who gave the name to the family was a great-great-grandson of Veli. The Shabanagaj (now also known as Šabanagić) were related via marriage with the Bushati family of Shkodra. Shaban Aga, their eponymous ancestor was the son-in-law of Sulejman Pasha Bushati, sanjakbey of Shkodra. He was sent in Gusinje as the commander of the fortress around 1690. The Shabanagaj family owned large estates in Berane. Ali Pasha of Gusinje, commander of the League of Prizren was a Shabanagaj and Jashar Rexhepagiq, pedagogue in Kosovo, was a Rexhepagaj.

Are there any results from any of these areas in any project?
In regards to the connection between the Bushati and Begani, I have seen that the Bushati have been referred to as "Sumej-Begani" as well as "Begaj". However, I do see the name Begaj being a later post-Ottoman name if it's etymology is indeed from Turkish beg. The Begani family themselves do seem to have been a prominent family from Shkodėr however, some modern descendants still live in the town with that name.

As for Rexhepagaj, some from Plav have tested and turned out to be R-Z2705>Y133365. Y133365+ clusters are present in some Albanians from the Thaēi/Elshani (Y133365>Y133384) as well as some from Labėria (Y133365>Y92698). I believe a guy from Kelmendi (Nikē) is also Y133365+, as well as one from the Muriqi (Y133384?). I am not aware of a Shabanagaj testing though.

Bruzmi
04-20-2020, 10:31 PM
About Bushati, an excerpt from:
"Kontribut pėr studimin e ngulitjes sė katuneve dhe krijimin e fiseve nė Shqipėrinė e veriut shekujt XV-XVI' [Contribution to the Study of Village Settlements and the Formation of the Tribes of Northern Albania in the 15th century]". Studime Historike. 12: 87-89.

Siē shihet vėllazėria e Bushatėve tė katunit shqiptar tė vitit 1330 vendvendosjen e vet kryesore e pati gjatė shekujve XV-XVI nė viset fushore e malore tė zonės sė Zetės ku ajo krijoi dhe vendbanimet e para tė pėrhershme dhe prej andej u zgjerua dhe u degėzua nė trevėn malore tė Petrishpan ilisė si dhe nė viset fushore tė Shkodrės, duke krijuar edhe njė fshat tjetėr me emrin Bushat nė jug tė Shkodrės. Siē shihet, nė fund tė shek. XV katuni Bushat ishte degėzuar, duke u ngulitur nė dy fshatra, tė cilave u dha emrin e vet, nė nahijet e Zhabjakut dhe tė Pipėrit, dhe duke u shpėrndarė njėkohėsisht nė fshatrat e trevės fushore tė Shkodrės. Veē kėtyre 12 degė tė kėtij katuni i gjejmė tė vendosura nė fshatrat e zonės malore tė Petrishpanilisė, duke bashkėjetuar me familje me prejardhje nga vėllazėri tė tjera. Nėnkuptohet se kėto vise dhe ato tė Pipėrit ishin zonat e kullotave verore tė kėtij katuni, ndėrsa ato tė Zhabjakut dhe tė Shkodrės ishin zona tė kullotave dimėrore. Blegtorėt Bushatė duhet tė kenė kaluar pėr verim me bagėtitė jo vetėm nė zonėn e Shalės dhe Shoshit, tė Piperit, por edhe nė viset lindore pėrderisa mė 1485 pėrmenden familje Bushatė edhe nė fshatrat e Altun ilisė siē janė fshatrat Shishmanci dhe Popovci si dhe nė shek. e XVI

Kelmendasi
04-21-2020, 12:50 AM
I saw on the Bosniak Y-DNA Project (former Sandžak Y-DNA Project) that a guy from the Beganovići family of Negobratin in Bijelo Polje has tested as E-PH2180+. This would be of interest if the Bushati and Beganovići do in fact come from the Medieval Begani, since the Bushati are PH2180>FT176420. However, the connection between the Begani and Bushati is tentative and uncertain at best, also it is unclear if the Beganovići are FT176420+. As far as I know the Beganovići claim origin from Kuēi and are related to the Aličkovići who are also from Bijelo Polje, so they may just share a similar name with the Begani and nothing else. Best way to know for sure is to test a member of the Begani family of Shkodra.

Keqa
04-21-2020, 12:59 AM
As for Rexhepagaj, some from Plav have tested and turned out to be R-Z2705>Y133365. Y133365+ clusters are present in some Albanians from the ThaƧi/Elshani (Y133365>Y133384) as well as some from Labƫria (Y133365>Y92698). I believe a guy from Kelmendi (NikƧ) is also Y133365+, as well as one from the Muriqi (Y133384?). I am not aware of a Shabanagaj testing though.
A Muriq? I am not aware of any Muriq that has tested as Y133365+

I know Rexhepagiqi that have tested as such which I mentioned in this thread a while back, a guy from Shkoder that has a family tradition of being from Kelmend (Nikc), a Kastrati from Has (Shefqet Kastrati), a Morine from Malesi e Gjakoves, few Thaqi/Elshani (Including me) and the fellas from Sevaster. Mind you there could be others, but the position where this SNP is located (close to STRs, so a possibility of mutating back and forth) is problematic and not covered well by the BigY (even Y700). YSEQ won't test it as an individual SNP either.

Only Dante or Fullgenomes I would recommend at this point to the Y32147+ folks who wish to upgrade.

Kelmendasi
04-21-2020, 12:33 PM
A Muriq? I am not aware of any Muriq that has tested as Y133365+

I know Rexhepagiqi that have tested as such which I mentioned in this thread a while back, a guy from Shkoder that has a family tradition of being from Kelmend (Nikc), a Kastrati from Has (Shefqet Kastrati), a Morine from Malesi e Gjakoves, few Thaqi/Elshani (Including me) and the fellas from Sevaster. Mind you there could be others, but the position where this SNP is located (close to STRs, so a possibility of mutating back and forth) is problematic and not covered well by the BigY (even Y700). YSEQ won't test it as an individual SNP either.

Only Dante or Fullgenomes I would recommend at this point to the Y32147+ folks who wish to upgrade.
My bad, I thought that the Muriq from around Pejė was Y133365+ due to how close he is to some guys under this cluster in terms of STRs. However, he has yet to upgrade and see if he is indeed Y133365+.

Bruzmi
04-23-2020, 02:33 AM
As we've discussed before Bukumiri and Bushati were present in Montenegro and became part of Piperi and Bratonožići. We know that because of the defter in 1497 and it is also confirmed by microtoponyms: for example, Бушат-уба (Bushat-uba) in Bratonožići. What is also interesting about
Bratonožići is that in the defter their eponymous ancestor is mentioned as "Brata, son of Nika" and he is the brother of "Pali, son of Nika".

The brotherhoods of Bratonožići that verifiably come from Bukumiri are: Baržić, Lalović, Ljajinović, Trimojević, Gudović, Dokić.
There are also other surnames that echo Albanian heritage: Progonović, Malević.
From the medieval (probably Albanian) tribe of Macura in today's Bratonožići: Jelavić

I was wondering if there are any results from these communities?

I also checked that there's 1 sample from modern Mataguzi on the Serbian DNA Project and it checks as https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z38456/

J Man
04-23-2020, 04:20 AM
As we've discussed before Bukumiri and Bushati were present in Montenegro and became part of Piperi and Bratonožići. We know that because of the defter in 1497 and it is also confirmed by microtoponyms: for example, Бушат-уба (Bushat-uba) in Bratonožići. What is also interesting about
Bratonožići is that in the defter their eponymous ancestor is mentioned as "Brata, son of Nika" and he is the brother of "Pali, son of Nika".

The brotherhoods of Bratonožići that verifiably come from Bukumiri are: Baržić, Lalović, Ljajinović, Trimojević, Gudović, Dokić.
There are also other surnames that echo Albanian heritage: Progonović, Malević.
From the medieval (probably Albanian) tribe of Macura in today's Bratonožići: Jelavić

I was wondering if there are any results from these communities?

I also checked that there's 1 sample from modern Mataguzi on the Serbian DNA Project that checks as https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z38456/

https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=2783.20

Kelmendasi
04-23-2020, 01:39 PM
As we've discussed before Bukumiri and Bushati were present in Montenegro and became part of Piperi and Bratonožići. We know that because of the defter in 1497 and it is also confirmed by microtoponyms: for example, Бушат-уба (Bushat-uba) in Bratonožići. What is also interesting about
Bratonožići is that in the defter their eponymous ancestor is mentioned as "Brata, son of Nika" and he is the brother of "Pali, son of Nika".

The brotherhoods of Bratonožići that verifiably come from Bukumiri are: Baržić, Lalović, Ljajinović, Trimojević, Gudović, Dokić.
There are also other surnames that echo Albanian heritage: Progonović, Malević.
From the medieval (probably Albanian) tribe of Macura in today's Bratonožići: Jelavić

I was wondering if there are any results from these communities?

I also checked that there's 1 sample from modern Mataguzi on the Serbian DNA Project that checks as https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z38456/
On the Serbian Y-DNA project it is claimed that the Bratonožići are Q-BZ3000, however there are a number of families that claim origin from Bratonožić but belong to different haplogroups. This either means that these families were "adopoted" by the Bratonožići or that there were multiple different lines within Bratonožić but Q-BZ3000 became dominant.

For example, in Rožaje there are families that claim origin from the Baljević brotherhood of Bratonožići and belong to G-L830. There are also some families from around Petnjica and Novi Pazar that are J2b-Y98609 and claim origin from Brskut, but I think it's claimed that they may be Bukumiri.

As for Macura, is there any strong evidence to suggest that they were Albanian-speaking? Šufflay did put forth the theory that they were indeed Albanian-speakers originally, however there are others who claim them to have been Vlachs. Some families that originally come from this tribe have tested and are I1-Y16434. Y16434 shares a common ancestor ~1,550ybp (Y16437) with Y60985, which so far has only been found among Albanians and it's downstreams are primarily found around the tribal regions of Puka (Kabashi - Y60985>BY207773, Qerreti - Y60985>BY105294 etc).

Bruzmi
04-23-2020, 04:40 PM
On the Serbian Y-DNA project it is claimed that the Bratonožići are Q-BZ3000, however there are a number of families that claim origin from Bratonožić but belong to different haplogroups. This either means that these families were "adopoted" by the Bratonožići or that there were multiple different lines within Bratonožić but Q-BZ3000 became dominant.

For example, in Rožaje there are families that claim origin from the Baljević brotherhood of Bratonožići and belong to G-L830. There are also some families from around Petnjica and Novi Pazar that are J2b-Y98609 and claim origin from Brskut, but I think it's claimed that they may be Bukumiri.

As for Macura, is there any strong evidence to suggest that they were Albanian-speaking? Šufflay did put forth the theory that they were indeed Albanian-speakers originally, however there are others who claim them to have been Vlachs. Some families that originally come from this tribe have tested and are I1-Y16434. Y16434 shares a common ancestor ~1,550ybp (Y16437) with Y60985, which so far has only been found among Albanians and it's downstreams are primarily found around the tribal regions of Puka (Kabashi - Y60985>BY207773, Qerreti - Y60985>BY105294 etc).


Bratonožići don't have the same patrilineal ancestry. If we compare the archival data in the defters of 1497, the settlements that later became that tribe don't figure as a distinct community but as part of Piperi. Their villages were very small. And the origin story about Brato doesn't involve much branching of brotherhoods among his descendants like the origin tradition of Hoti. So, it's obvious that many families came under the same community named after Brato, son of Nika .

About Macura, I think that the people behind the project of "the Macuras all over the world (http://macure.net/en/Home#!Home/HomePage)" which have even organized a world gathering of the Macura tribe in Belgrade in 2016 have made a mistake - despite their commendable efforts and communitarian spirit, which is truly deserving praise. They've assumed that all these Macuras from all over Europe have the same origin and that the fact their surnames sound the same is not a linguistic coincidence. So, if you check their Genetics section it turns out that all the I1-Y16434 are from a cluster in Dalmatia. So a group of people with the same surname in the same region in Croatia have the same origin.

They also have 1 result from the Czech Republic - that person is I2 and 4 results from Poland. Three of those are E-V13 and one is R1a. Again, to me it's obvious that the only common thing these people have is that they are called "Macura" in the modern spellings of their respective languages.

Kelmendasi
04-23-2020, 05:21 PM
Bratonožići don't have the same patrilineal ancestry. If we compare the archival data in the defters of 1497, the settlements that later became that tribe don't figure as a distinct community but as part of Piperi. Their villages were very small. And the origin story about Brato doesn't involve much branching of brotherhoods among his descendants like the origin tradition of Hoti. So, it's obvious that many families came under the same community named after Brato, son of Nika .

About Macura, I think that the people behind the project of "the Macuras all over the world (http://macure.net/en/Home#!Home/HomePage)" which have even organized a world gathering of the Macura tribe in Belgrade in 2016 have made a mistake - despite their commendable efforts and communitarian spirit, which is truly deserving praise. They've assumed that all these Macuras from all over Europe have the same origin and that the fact their surnames sound the same is not a linguistic coincidence. So, if you check their Genetics section it turns out that all the I1-Y16434 are from a cluster in Dalmatia. So a group of people with the same surname in the same region in Croatia have the same origin.

They also have 1 result from the Czech Republic - that person is I2 and 4 results from Poland. Three of those are E-V13 and one is R1a. Again, to me it's obvious that the only common thing these people have is that they are called "Macura" in the modern spellings of their respective languages.
Yeah, that's possible. The presence of Q-BZ3000 in the region is very interesting, It has been theorised that this branch arrived with the Avars or Huns though this is still to be confirmed. I believe some families from Piper have also tested positive for this branch.

Yes that is true, their project is made up of individuals that have the same surname. Though the samples from Dalmatia do indeed have origin from the Macura of Montenegro, oral tradition claims that they were forced to leave their homeland due to rebelling against the local Ottoman lords during the 17th century. Near Krka there is a village called Macura which was supposedly founded by the tribe, there they guarded the Krka Monastery. There are some Macura from the Republic of Srpska that are also I1 (should belong to the same cluster). Should be noted that some families from Nikšić have also tested as I1-Y16434, supporting a connection with Montenegro.

The E-V13 samples from Poland are interesting, as far as I am aware they haven't tested any further so it's unknown what exact cluster they belong to.

Kelmendasi
04-23-2020, 05:32 PM
I also checked that there's 1 sample from modern Mataguzi on the Serbian DNA Project and it checks as https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z38456/
In regards to this sample, from what I have read they aren't native to Mataguži. He comes from the Boljević family who are part of the Kaluđerovići brotherhood. From what I understood they believe to have come a couple hundred years ago from either Đeklić or Ljubotinj in Old Montenegro (Stara Crna Gora). They are mentioned here https://www.poreklo.rs/2013/04/09/poreklo-prezimena-selo-matagu%C5%BEi-podgorica/?lang=lat.

However, the fact that he is E-Z38456+ indicates an Albanian origin of this family and brotherhood. I see that a guy from the village of Kruse in Lješanska nahija is also Z38456, he belongs to a family that are considered to be part of the older population of the area known as Krusima/Krusi, though apparently some of the families from the village claim origin from Kruja in Albania. The toponym Kruse itself could be related to the Medieval Albanian tribe Kryethi.

Keqa
04-23-2020, 07:17 PM
Bratonožići don't have the same patrilineal ancestry. If we compare the archival data in the defters of 1497, the settlements that later became that tribe don't figure as a distinct community but as part of Piperi. Their villages were very small. And the origin story about Brato doesn't involve much branching of brotherhoods among his descendants like the origin tradition of Hoti. So, it's obvious that many families came under the same community named after Brato, son of Nika .

About Macura, I think that the people behind the project of "the Macuras all over the world (http://macure.net/en/Home#!Home/HomePage)" which have even organized a world gathering of the Macura tribe in Belgrade in 2016 have made a mistake - despite their commendable efforts and communitarian spirit, which is truly deserving praise. They've assumed that all these Macuras from all over Europe have the same origin and that the fact their surnames sound the same is not a linguistic coincidence. So, if you check their Genetics section it turns out that all the I1-Y16434 are from a cluster in Dalmatia. So a group of people with the same surname in the same region in Croatia have the same origin.

They also have 1 result from the Czech Republic - that person is I2 and 4 results from Poland. Three of those are E-V13 and one is R1a. Again, to me it's obvious that the only common thing these people have is that they are called "Macura" in the modern spellings of their respective languages.
These Macura from Dalmatia belonging to Y16434 actually trace their origin to southern Montenegro. They used to live nearby Vasojevici, if not in their territory. They disintegrated as a tribe long time ago, though. According to some traditions they were referred to as "Latinci". It's not clear to me if it was based on linguistics or religion. Them being Vlahs I believe was based on that notion. If religion was the only distinguishing element then I am not sure if that could stand, considering their closest relatives further south (Kabashi, Kcira, Qeleza etc).

However, worth noting is that this whole cluster Y16435 is most definitely of Germanic extraction. They could have gone through a "Latin" phase linguistically speaking when they entered Balkans before Rome collapsed.

Bruzmi
04-24-2020, 02:55 AM
Latinci used to refer to the Latin rite, hence Catholicism. It certainly doesn't refer to Vlachs ("Vlasi") because Vlachs were Orthodox in those areas, not Catholics. By comparison, in the folk song Pogibija vojvode Drekala i njegova osveta
(https://sr.wikisource.org/sr-el/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0_% D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%98%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B5_%D0%94%D 1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0_%D0%B8_%D1%9A%D 0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0_%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B2%D0 %B5%D1%82%D0%B0) all references to Latins are about Kelmendi who were Catholics.

It's interesting about Macura, but it could also be the result of a founder effect in the group that migrated in Dalmatia. Also, personally, I wouldn't use the term "Germanic" about the haplogroup because it is not related to Indo-Europeans or Finns. It is an "indigenous" haplogroup of Pre-Indo-European Europe that in historical times got absorbed by a part of the Germanic peoples of Sweden, Norway and a part of the western Finns.

About Mataguzi, it is interesting that one of the Kaluđerovići brotherhoods is "Balijaši" (Balashi), so that one result from Boljević *really* makes sense. Like I've mentioned before the one brotherhood about whom we know to be mentioned as descendants of the Mataguzi tribe are the Grbačević. My source is Risto Kovijanić (1974) Pomeni crnogorskih plemena u Kotorskim spomenicima, XIV-XVI vijek, v.2 who writes the following:

"Маtaguži su 1468. godine priložili manastiru Vranjini jednu zemlju »meždu reku Plavnicu i potok ot Kabež (treba: Karabež).“ Меđu priloženicima se pominje i »Lev Grbačević«, možda pripadnik bratstvu Grbavčević iz današnjih Mataguža." So, a Lev Grbačević was a member of Mataguzi in 1468 and this may be a reference to the Grbavčević of today, but on poreklo it says that the Grbavčević family came much later. Their source is "Pavle S. Radusinović, “Stanovništvo i naselja zetske ravnice od najstarijeg do novijeg doba, druga knjiga“ iz 1991. godine".


So, we have two different sources with two different claims. I'm pointing this out to make a comment about the need for cross-examination of different bibliographical sources. I'm making this second comment in order to point out that the choice of sources is not always neutral in a project, nor are the authors themselves neutral but they have their own agendas.

Keqa
04-24-2020, 02:38 PM
Y16435 only has a tmrca of 2000ybp so Germanic, meaning tribes like Goths, Visigoths, Vandals etc, that spoke some sort of Germanic dialect is appropriate in this case, regardless of the more distant origin of this linage.

trdbr1234
04-26-2020, 06:07 PM
Y16435 only has a tmrca of 2000ybp so Germanic, meaning tribes like Goths, Visigoths, Vandals etc, that spoke some sort of Germanic dialect is appropriate in this case, regardless of the more distant origin of this linage.

You do understand that TMRCA is based on individuals currently tested? With time and more people testing, we will have greater coverage of the range of formation to present.

If, when that happens, we do find that it has a Germanic distribution, then your statement may be correct. However with a formed 3800 ybp, and TMRCA 2000 ybp with a Bulgarian and Albanian as the only nationalities on that tree, your statement is complete lunacy.

I also hope you understand that the formation of this clade precedes the formation of the Germanic people by ~1000 years.

Kelmendasi
04-26-2020, 08:24 PM
You do understand that TMRCA is based on individuals currently tested? With time and more people testing, we will have greater coverage of the range of formation to present.

If, when that happens, we do find that it has a Germanic distribution, then your statement may be correct. However with a formed 3800 ybp, and TMRCA 2000 ybp with a Bulgarian and Albanian as the only nationalities on that tree, your statement is complete lunacy.

I also hope you understand that the formation of this clade precedes the formation of the Germanic people by ~1000 years.
The Y16435* sample is from Belarus. Samples YF03841 and YF03808, whom are under Y16434, are the samples that have origin from Macura and I believe are from Croatia (Dalmatia). Then we have the Albanians who all come under Y60985. As for the TMRCA, true we do need more samples to get a clearer picture, however we can stipulate that all these groups shared a common ancestor that lived roughly 2,000ybp (50 BCE - 20 AD, depending on definitions of years before present) and it's unlikely that this group was present in the Balkans prior to the Migration Period.

Based on current data I do think an arrival with Germanic groups is most likely. The presence of Y16435 in eastern Europe (Belarus) potentially suggests a later link to East Germanic-speaking populations, such as the Goths, as we know that they were present in the region and had significant influence in the formation of certain cultures (e.g. Wielbark and Chernyakhov cultures). Interestingly, I-L1237, which shares S2077 with Y16435, was found in a sample from Poland (Kowalewko) that belonged to the Wielbark culture.

trdbr1234
04-27-2020, 04:38 PM
The Y16435* sample is from Belarus. Samples YF03841 and YF03808, whom are under Y16434, are the samples that have origin from Macura and I believe are from Croatia (Dalmatia). Then we have the Albanians who all come under Y60985. As for the TMRCA, true we do need more samples to get a clearer picture, however we can stipulate that all these groups shared a common ancestor that lived roughly 2,000ybp (50 BCE - 20 AD, depending on definitions of years before present) and it's unlikely that this group was present in the Balkans prior to the Migration Period.

Based on current data I do think an arrival with Germanic groups is most likely. The presence of Y16435 in eastern Europe (Belarus) potentially suggests a later link to East Germanic-speaking populations, such as the Goths, as we know that they were present in the region and had significant influence in the formation of certain cultures (e.g. Wielbark and Chernyakhov cultures). Interestingly, I-L1237, which shares S2077 with Y16435, was found in a sample from Poland (Kowalewko) that belonged to the Wielbark culture.

You are correct. BLR is Belarus and not Bulgaria. The statement does still stand and doesn't change what was said..

History is far too complex to fit populations into neatly defined Y-DNA groupings. Understand that every line has experienced multiple near extinction events and resulting expansions(founder effects). These lines in their range of formation could have been literally anywhere. Without well defined mutations on the timeline range that can give and clear pattern of migration, it is is silly and childish to assume that because it is a I1 clade and it is most common among Germanic people, that it must be of eventual Germanic origin. Applying this kind of logic is stupid and just compounds on the silliness of haplo-nationalism that is unfortunately common on this thread and the former Albanian Y-DNA project.

For example, I found this post really interesting. There have been multiple waves on back migration into Belarus and Russia from Central Europe and Danube basin starting in the 7-8th centuries link (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20055-Ancient-genomes-reveal-social-and-genetic-structure-of-Late-Neolithic-Switzerland&p=662334&viewfull=1#post662334) https://history.wikireading.ru/98535

Looking at the I-S2077 tree(upstream of Y16435), we find a few brother clades do not match any Germanic distribution, nor any specific distribution from Eastern Europe.

namely Y59728 - formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp, with an Albanian and Serbian on the tree and a later Brit of likely Roman origin.
As does Y3987 formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 3800 ybp, with Pole and Spaniard as branching at a TMRCA 3700 ybp and Turk that branches with them at formed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybp.

It seems clear to me this line branched off early enough that it could very well be Paleo-Balkan. Although that is a could.

Ofcourse, more data is needed and it is too early to make big assumptions.

Keqa
04-27-2020, 04:54 PM
You do understand that TMRCA is based on individuals currently tested? With time and more people testing, we will have greater coverage of the range of formation to present.

If, when that happens, we do find that it has a Germanic distribution, then your statement may be correct. However with a formed 3800 ybp, and TMRCA 2000 ybp with a Bulgarian and Albanian as the only nationalities on that tree, your statement is complete lunacy.

I also hope you understand that the formation of this clade precedes the formation of the Germanic people by ~1000 years.
How’s the weather where you are at, sunny?

trdbr1234
04-27-2020, 05:00 PM
How’s the weather where you are at, sunny?

Very good. Thanks for asking.

Is your refugee status up to date?

Keqa
04-27-2020, 05:11 PM
Good to hear. Get out there and get some sun, man.

Kelmendasi
04-27-2020, 05:25 PM
You are correct. BLR is Belarus and not Bulgaria. The statement does still stand and doesn't change what was said..

History is far too complex to fit populations into neatly defined Y-DNA groupings. Understand that every line has experienced multiple near extinction events and resulting expansions(founder effects). These lines in their range of formation could have been literally anywhere. Without well defined mutations on the timeline range that can give and clear pattern of migration, it is is silly and childish to assume that because it is a I1 clade and it is most common among Germanic people, that it must be of eventual Germanic origin. Applying this kind of logic is stupid and just compounds on the silliness of haplo-nationalism that is unfortunately common on this thread and the former Albanian Y-DNA project.

For example, I found this post really interesting. There have been multiple waves on back migration into Belarus and Russia from Central Europe and Danube basin starting in the 7-8th centuries link (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20055-Ancient-genomes-reveal-social-and-genetic-structure-of-Late-Neolithic-Switzerland&p=662334&viewfull=1#post662334) https://history.wikireading.ru/98535

Looking at the I-S2077 tree(upstream of Y16435), we find a few brother clades do not match any Germanic distribution, nor any specific distribution from Eastern Europe.

namely Y59728 - formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp, with an Albanian and Serbian on the tree and a later Brit of likely Roman origin.
As does Y3987 formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 3800 ybp, with Pole and Spaniard as branching at a TMRCA 3700 ybp and Turk that branches with them at formed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybp.

It seems clear to me this line branched off early enough that it could very well be Paleo-Balkan. Although that is a could.

Ofcourse, more data is needed and it is too early to make big assumptions.
Sure, without much evidence to work with it is difficult to say with certainty when and with whom certain clusters arrived. However, we have to work with the available data. It is far more likely that Y16435 (and other S2077+ clusters) arrived to eastern Europe via the west than south, given that the vast majority of these clusters are more diverse in western and central European nations that are also Germanic-speaking.

As for the link between some branches of S2077 and the Romans, interestingly S2077>Y7234 was discovered in a sample from Rome that dates back to Late Antiquity (400-600 CE). However, the site from which this sample was excavated had strong archaeological links to the Lombards and the sample itself seems to have clustered more with Central and Western Europeans. This suggests Germanic origin, most likely Lombard.

And in regards to Y3968 (Y3987), it should be noted that Y3968>Y3979 (S15301) was found in a site from Collegno, Italy, that dates back to the 6th century CE. The site had strong cultural influences from the Goths and Lombards and I believe the sample itself was identified as belonging to either of those groups. So it seems more than likely that Z63>S2077+ only arrived in the Italian Peninsula with Germanic-speaking populations during the Migration Period.

trdbr1234
04-27-2020, 06:10 PM
Sure, without much evidence to work with it is difficult to say with certainty when and with whom certain clusters arrived. However, we have to work with the available data. It is far more likely that Y16435 (and other S2077+ clusters) arrived to eastern Europe via the west than south, given that the vast majority of these clusters are more diverse in western and central European nations that are also Germanic-speaking.

As for the link between some branches of S2077 and the Romans, interestingly S2077>Y7234 was discovered in a sample from Rome that dates back to Late Antiquity (400-600 CE). However, the site from which this sample was excavated had strong archaeological links to the Lombards and the sample itself seems to have clustered more with Central and Western Europeans. This suggests Germanic origin, most likely Lombard.

And in regards to Y3968 (Y3987), it should be noted that Y3968>Y3979 (S15301) was found in a site from Collegno, Italy, that dates back to the 6th century CE. The site had strong cultural influences from the Goths and Lombards and I believe the sample itself was identified as belonging to either of those groups. So it seems more than likely that Z63>S2077+ only arrived in the Italian Peninsula with Germanic-speaking populations during the Migration Period.

That may be the case. It does seem that there was some Gothic distribution of the clade.

Well, this rrenjet article seems to agree with you. http://rrenjet.com/501-2/

It is far from convincing and I think it shows the same fallacies.

I-S6277 is also interesting.

trdbr1234
04-29-2020, 05:16 AM
Does not seem as though there has been any significant gene-flow from northern Albania, as some members here and some Greek scholars would position.

Very interesting article.

http://rrenjet.com/laberia/


Labėria

Labėria ėshtė treva mė e madhe malore nė pjesėn jug-perėndimore tė Shqipėrisė. Nga ana gjuhėsore, janė tė shumtė autorėt kanė vėnė re se popullsia e Labėrisė shfaq karakteristika tė veēanta brenda dialektit toskė (Friedman, 2005; Elsie). Po ashtu, nė aspektin kulturor, etnografik dhe historik, krahina ka tipare dalluese qė i japin banorėve tė saj vetėdije tė spikatur tė identitetit lab brenda atij shqiptar (Elezi & Zojzi, 2006; Mahony, 2011; Zojzi, 2018; etj). Pėr kėto arsye, ėshtė me interes tė shqyrtohet nė mėnyrė krahasimore pėrbėrja gjenetike e popullsisė labe me atė tė pjesės tjetėr tė trevave shqiptare dhe sidomos me pjesėn tjetėr tė Toskėrisė.

Tė dhėnat gjenetike
Pėr tė identifikuar sa mė saktė bėrthamėn e krahinės, do tė mbėshtetemi tek kufijtė e vjetėr tė ruajtur nė traditėn vendase (Zojzi, 2018, f.56): Ura e Drashovicės nė veri, Ura e Tepelenės nė lindje, Ura e Kalasė nė jug dhe bregdeti i Jonit dhe Adriatikut nė perėndim. Treva brenda kėtyre kufijve ėshtė ndėr mė tė testuarat deri tani, me 85 rezultate nga 36 vendbanime tė ndryshme. Sipas vendlindjes sė gjyshit nė vijė atėrore tė ēdo personi tė testuar, rezultatet vijnė nga vendbanimet: Nivicė (8), Golėm (6), Kuē (5), Brataj (4), Progonat (4), Rradhimė (4), Sevastėr (4), Tepelenė (4), Dhėrmi (3), Himarė (3), Smokthinė (3), Vranisht (3), Bolenė (2), Dukat (2), Fterrė (2), Kardhiq (2), Luzat (2), Qeparo (2), Rexhin (2), Tragjas (2), Vajzė (2), Vuno (2), Borsh (1), Dhemblan (1), Fushėbardhė (1), Gjorm (1), Gusmar (1), Humelicė (1), Kudhės (1), Memaliaj (1), Picar (1), Prongji (1), Shkozė (1), Turan (1), Velēė (1), Zhulat (1). Tabela e mėposhtme paraqet rezultatet nga Labėria dhe treva tė tjera shqiptare:

https://i.imgur.com/gQwuEHk.png

Rezultatet nga krahina e Labėrisė shfaqin lidhjet e pritshme me trojet e tjera shqiptare, megjithatė tregojnė edhe disa veēori krahinore.

– Si nė pėrgjithėsi nė trojet shqiptare, gjasat janė qė shumica e linjave atėrore labe kanė prejardhje tė lashtė ballkanike (nga Epoka e Bronzit dhe e Hekurit), kurse njė pakicė kanė mbėrritur nė Ballkan prej Antikitetit tė vonė ose Mesjetės sė hershme me dyndjet gjermanike, sllave, apo tė popullsive nomade nga stepat euroaziatike. Nė nivel haplogrupesh, E-V13, R1b-M269, J2b-L283 dhe I1-M253 kanė dendėsi mė tė lartė nė Labėri se tek toskėt e tjerė. Madje edhe jashtė kufirit qė pėrcaktuam, kėto haplogrupe gjenden disi mė dendur nė Tepelenė dhe Mallakastėr. Sidomos I1-M253, nė Labėri mbėrrin pėrqindje mė tė lartė se nė gjithė trevat e tjera shqiptare me pėrjashtim tė Pukės, ku gjithashtu ka pėrqindje shumė tė lartė. Vėrehet gjithashtu dendėsi mjaft e ulėt e haplogrupeve R1a, I2a, G, dhe disa haplogrupeve tė tjera mė tė rralla. Tė dhėnat pėrputhen me shpėrndarjen e kėtyre haplorupeve edhe nė trevat e tjera shqiptare, ku R1a-M417, I2a-Y3120 dhe G gjenden mė dendur nė zona fushore, kurse I1-M253, R1b-M269 dhe J2b-L283 kanė dendėsi mė tė lartė nė zona malore.

http://rrenjet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Laberia-harta-1.05-1536x990.png

– Nė nivel subkladash (degėzime haplogrupesh), Labėria shfaq disa dallime me pjesėn tjetėr tė Toskėrisė:



* Rezultatet E-V13 janė nė pjesėn dėrrmuese E-V13>Z5018>FGC11450>Y173822, E-V13>Z5018>FGC11450>Y146086, ose njė degėzim i veēantė i E-V13>Z5018, tė cilat gjenden rrallė ose aspak nė pjesėn tjetėr tė Toskėrisė. Nga ana tjetėr, nėndega mjaft e pėrhapur nė juglindje, E-V13>Z5017>CTS9320>Z17107, pothuajse mungon nė Labėri.
* Shumica e rezultateve nga haplogrupi R1b-M269, ashtu si nė pėrgjithėsi nė trevat shqiptare, i takojnė nėndegės R1b-BY611. Njė veēori e R1b-sė sė gjetur deri tani nė Labėri ėshtė se degėzimi i dytė mė i shpeshtė nuk ėshtė R1b-PF7563, i cili deri tani mungon, por R1b-L51.
* Haplogrupi J2b-L283, relativisht i rrallė nė pjesėn mė tė madhe tė Toskėrisė, pėrveē dendėsisė, shfaq edhe larmi mjaft tė lartė nė Labėri, me rezultate nga disa degėzime tė vjetra.
* Njė ndėr rezultatet mė tipike labe ėshtė I1-M253>Z58>A6397>Y97339, qė dominon haplogrupin I1-M253 nė Labėri, por jashtė saj gjendet vetėm nė Mallakastėr.
* J2a-M410 po ashtu pėrmban degėzime tė pagjetura nė troje tė tjera, ndėrsa shmuica e linjave J1-M267 kanė lidhje me disa rezultate tė tjera Berati, Korēa dhe Gjirokastra.

– Njė numėr i relativisht i lartė linjash atėrore janė vendosur dhe pėrhapur nė Labėri, duke formuar grupe qė gjenden vetėm aty dhe nė zonat pėrreth. Grupe tė dallueshme pėr momentin janė I1-M253>Y97339, dhe degėzime tė E-V13>Z5018, E-V13>Z5018>FGC11450>Y146086 dhe J2a-M410>L25. Ka shumė gjasa qė nėndegė tė veēanta labe tė kenė edhe E-V13>Z5018>FGC11450>Y173822 dhe R1b-BY611, por duhen disa teste me rezolucion mė tė lartė pėr t’u dalluar. Pėr tė gjitha kėto degėzime do tė kemi artikuj tė veēantė nė tė ardhmen nėse rritet numri i testeve me rezolucion tė lartė.

– Fshatrat e Labėrisė janė shpesh tė dominuara nga njė trung i vetėm gjenealogjik. Nė shtatė prej dhjetė fshatrave me tri, ose mė shumė rezultate, tė paktėn gjysma e tė testuarve janė tė njė linje atėrore. Nė kėtė nėndarje tė rezultateve, kampioni ėshtė pak mė i vogėl, prandaj pėrfundimi duhet marrė disi me rezervė. Nėse ky trend pėrforcohet me rritjen e numrit tė testeve, ky tipar i Labėrisė mund tė jetė tregues i themelimit tė disa prej fshatrave si bashkėsi fisnore dhe ruajtjes deri nė njė farė shkallė tė kėsaj strukture deri nė ditėt e sotshme.

– Shpėrndarja gjeografike e grupeve kryesore tė linjave atėrore paraqitet jo e njėtrajtshme. Pėrveē E-V13>Y146086, qė ka shpėrndarje tė gjerė, linjat e tjera janė tė pėrqendruara nė zona mė tė kufizuara: rezultatet E-V13>Y173822 gjenden nė pjesėn mė lindore tė krahinės; linjat R1b-BY611 vijnė kryesisht nga brigjet e Vjosės dhe nga Kurveleshi, J2a-M410 gjendet gjatė gjithė bregdetit, por jo nė brendėsi; I1-M253>Y97339 ėshtė pėrhapur pak mė gjerėsisht por shumica e rezultateve tė kesaj linje vijnė gjithashtu nga Kurveleshi. Pėrsėri duhet thėnė se njė kampion mė i madh mund tė tregojė me siguri mė tė lartė shpėrndarjen lokale tė secilės linjė atėrore, por shpėrndarja e deritanishme e linjave atėrore nė Labėri ka karakter lokal mė shumė se krahinor. Nė pritje tė mė shumė rezultateve, mund tė hamendėsojmė se formimi i identitetit tė pėrbashkėt krahinor lab ka qenė mė shumė pasojė e proceseve kulturore apo ekonomike/shoqėrore, se sa si zgjerim i disa fiseve kryesore, sic mund tė ketė ndodhur nė disa zona tė veriut.

– Labėria shfaq ngjashmėri tė kufizuar me linjat atėrore tė gegėve. Nė fakt, shumė ndėr fshatrat e Labėrisė kanė gojėdhėna pėr prejardhje nga veriu, pėr verifikimin e e tė cilave nevojiten teste me cilėsi tė lartė. Nga rezultatet e deritanishme, mund tė themi se njė numėr i kufizuar i tė testuarve tė ketė prejardhje veriore. Kėtu hyjnė rezultate R1b-BY611>Z2705>Y31247>Y133365, R1b-BY611>Z2705>BY105603, J2b-L283>PH1751, J2b-L283>Y82533 dhe ndoshta ato E-V13>Y173822. Duhet theksuar se edhe pse ka gjasa qė perjardhja e tyre tė jetė nga veriu: 1- kjo duhet verifikuar me teste me rezolucion mė tė lartė; 2- deri tani nuk ka prova qė lidhin rezultate nga Labėria me rezultate veriore nė afėrsi nėn 500 vjet; 3- shumica dėrrmuese e linjave atėrore labe nuk shfaqin afėrsi tė dukshme me linja veriore. Nė kėtė rast, mė shumė se rritja e kampionit ka rėndėsi pėrmirėsimi i rezolucionit tė testeve tė deritanishme.

parapolitikos
04-29-2020, 10:54 AM
Does not seem as though there has been any significant gene-flow from northern Albania, as some members here and some Greek scholars would position.

Very interesting article.

http://rrenjet.com/laberia/

Z2705 and Ph1751 arrived from the North sometime between 500 and 1500 A.D(and proliferated thereafter) via a Gheg Invasion, which in all likelihood mostly occurred after the 15th century with the resettlement of Gheg muslim soldiers through out the depopulated South Albania(and north Albania). It is crystal clear from the Y-dna studies, that the original Gheg population came from outside the boundaries of modern Albania in the last 1500 or so years and was predominately of the two clades(and in general of R1b and J2b with some I1) with little input from other haplotypes. The real questions is when exactly and whether they were originally Albanian speaking. Most likely not as no neighbouring population has those characteristic. Modern Ghegs are a genetic isolate and what ever commonalities they have with near by populations are to the extend they mixed with the native populations in the areas they settled.

Sorcelow
04-29-2020, 01:47 PM
Does not seem as though there has been any significant gene-flow from northern Albania, as some members here and some Greek scholars would position.

Very interesting article.

http://rrenjet.com/laberia/

What's interesting is that 5 of the 12 (41.6%) testers from Himara are J2a.

Johane Derite
04-29-2020, 02:01 PM
J2b-L283 has diversity and tmrca thoughout both Tosks and Ghegs separated by ~4500-5000 years. These clades are present in South Albania and North Albania for a very long time. There is no such thing as a Gheg invasion.

http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/J-L283.png
http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/J-Z638.png

Kelmendasi
04-29-2020, 02:27 PM
Z2705 and Ph1751 arrived from the North sometime between 500 and 1500 A.D(and proliferated thereafter) via a Gheg Invasion, which in all likelihood mostly occurred after the 15th century with the resettlement of Gheg muslim soldiers through out the depopulated South Albania(and north Albania). It is crystal clear from the Y-dna studies, that the original Gheg population came from outside the boundaries of modern Albania in the last 1500 or so years and was predominately of the two clades(and in general of R1b and J2b with some I1) with little input from other haplotypes. The real questions is when exactly and whether they were originally Albanian speaking. Most likely not as no neighbouring population has those characteristic. Modern Ghegs are a genetic isolate and what ever commonalities they have with near by populations are to the extend they mixed with the native populations in the areas they settled.
The claim that Gheg Albanians were not originally Albanian-speaking when they predominantly belong to local Paleo-Balkan clusters that fit with the formation of the Albanian ethnos is beyond absurd, let alone the fact that the Gheg dialects are the ones that have preserved the most archaic features of Proto-Albanian (e.g. nasal vowels and no rhotacism).

Please, if you're going to post such absurdities, do so on Eupedia.

Kelmendasi
04-29-2020, 02:48 PM
What's interesting is that 5 of the 12 (41.6%) testers from Himara are J2a.
Some genetic input in the region from Greek-speakers should be expected considering that it has had Hellenic influence since Antiquity. Though it should be noted that the majority of the J2a in the region falls under the same cluster, F3133>"Himara Cluster", and are from Dhėrmi. I think the origin of this cluster itself is still unknown since NGS testing is needed, and F3133 itself has quite a spread in West Asian nations. Anyways, we need more samples from the region since a sample size of 12 isn't much to go by.

Sorcelow
04-29-2020, 02:54 PM
Some genetic input in the region from Greek-speakers should be expected considering that it has had Hellenic influence since Antiquity. Though it should be noted that the majority of the J2a in the region falls under the same cluster, F3133>"Himara Cluster", and are from Dhėrmi. I think the origin of this cluster itself is still unknown since NGS testing is needed. Anyways, we need more samples from the region since a sample size of 12 isn't much to go by.

Yes, more testing is definitely needed. I am inclined to believe that this particular cluster might be an original Chaonian lineage, which would separate the Himariotes from the Byllione derived Labs. But more resolution is needed, and this is just speculation.

Kelmendasi
04-29-2020, 02:58 PM
Yes, more testing is definitely needed. I am inclined to believe that this particular cluster might be an original Chaonian lineage, which would separate the Himariotes from the Byllione derived Labs. But more resolution is needed, and this is just speculation.
Do you know of any Greeks that are F3133+?

Sorcelow
04-29-2020, 03:03 PM
Do you know of any Greeks that are F3133+?

No, personally I do not. But then again I haven't seen many Greek results and Greeks are undertested in general.

But my guess would be that this particular lineage would show up amongst Epirote Greeks and Arvanites, considering there were population movements from this region southward.

Johane Derite
04-29-2020, 03:04 PM
Yes, more testing is definitely needed. I am inclined to believe that this particular cluster might be an original Chaonian lineage, which would separate the Himariotes from the Byllione derived Labs. But more resolution is needed, and this is just speculation.

Chaonians mythically claimed origin from Chaon, a Trojan, opponent of the Greeks in the Trojan war. Something to keep in mind if we are looking for the original Chaonian y-lineages.

The later linguistic hellenisation of epirote tribes is something else.

Sorcelow
04-29-2020, 03:11 PM
Chaonians mythically claimed origin from Chaon, a Trojan, opponent of the Greeks in the Trojan war. Something to keep in mind if we are looking for the original Chaonian y-lineages.

The later linguistic hellenisation of epirote tribes is something else.

They would have spoken the northwest Greek dialect, which is evident by their names, toponyms, inscriptions, etc., introduced to the region probably during the late Bronze Age.

J Man
04-29-2020, 03:12 PM
No, personally I do not. But then again I haven't seen many Greek results and Greeks are undertested in general.

But my guess would be that this particular lineage would show up amongst Epirote Greeks and Arvanites, considering there were population movements from this region southward.

It would indeed be interesting to see if any J2a is present among Arvanites.

J Man
04-29-2020, 03:17 PM
What's interesting is that 5 of the 12 (41.6%) testers from Himara are J2a.

Yes there is a J2a "Himara Cluster". Maybe more samples in this cluster will turn up in other villages of Himara other than Dhermi as more samples are tested.

Johane Derite
04-29-2020, 03:38 PM
They would have spoken the northwest Greek dialect, which is evident by their names, toponyms, inscriptions, etc., introduced to the region probably during the late Bronze Age.

That is correct. But they claimed & named themselves after Chaon and his Trojan origins, not North-West Greek.

Much of North Africa for example was linguistically Arabized after the Islamic expansion, but that doesn't mean they were always Arabic speaking.

It is plausible that some Epirote tribes were linguistically Hellenized Illyrian tribes given that this was a multi ethnic region.

Illyrian names have been found in Dodona inscriptions, that show Hellenized Illyrians were as far south as at least South Epirus.

So this must be kept in mind when discerning which lineages are Greek proper, or Hellenized Illyrians, for scientific and historical posterity.

https://i.imgur.com/ORSgFmp.png

Kelmendasi
04-29-2020, 03:43 PM
They would have spoken the northwest Greek dialect, which is evident by their names, toponyms, inscriptions, etc., introduced to the region probably during the late Bronze Age.
It's pretty clear that a variant of Northwestern Greek was spoken in the region since at least the 4th century BCE given that inscriptions in this dialect have been found in the ancient city of Dodona, that date back to 370-368 BCE. The inscriptions also showed that tribesmen from both the Molossians and Thesprotians had Greek personal names. However, Strabo notes that some of the Epirotic tribes were bilingual, this is of interest since some of the names of the Epirotic chieftains mentioned by Thucydides do not have Greek etymologies.

Personally I agree with Croatian linguist, Radoslav Katičić, who states that the Epirotes originally spoke a Hellenic language that evolved separately from the other Hellenic languages due to the geographic distance of the region from the core centers of Hellenism. As well as the migration of non-Hellenic tribes from the north that led to bilingualism and the presence of foreign anthroponyms. https://archive.org/details/AncientLanguagesOfTheBalkans/page/n61/mode/2up/search/epirotic

trdbr1234
04-29-2020, 03:45 PM
Z2705 and Ph1751 arrived from the North sometime between 500 and 1500 A.D(and proliferated thereafter) via a Gheg Invasion, which in all likelihood mostly occurred after the 15th century with the resettlement of Gheg muslim soldiers through out the depopulated South Albania(and north Albania). It is crystal clear from the Y-dna studies, that the original Gheg population came from outside the boundaries of modern Albania in the last 1500 or so years and was predominately of the two clades(and in general of R1b and J2b with some I1) with little input from other haplotypes. The real questions is when exactly and whether they were originally Albanian speaking. Most likely not as no neighbouring population has those characteristic. Modern Ghegs are a genetic isolate and what ever commonalities they have with near by populations are to the extend they mixed with the native populations in the areas they settled.

In the last paragraph of the article, the author does state that Z2705 and Ph1751 from the region may have a Northern origin. However, more testing is needed to verify this, as the resolution of the testers is not high. Author also states that even if they do, that it seems to be more than 500 years old divergence.

The article on E-Y173822 (http://rrenjet.com/e-y173822/) states that its distribution is likely from Southern and Middle Albania onto Northern Albania with an expansion that fits the ethnogenesis of Albanians at around 1200ybp.

There have been movements of people and it has been both directions. There is no proof of any significant movement of people into Laberia, as Greek schoolars would position.

Keqa
04-29-2020, 03:48 PM
Yes, more testing is definitely needed. I am inclined to believe that this particular cluster might be an original Chaonian lineage, which would separate the Himariotes from the Byllione derived Labs. But more resolution is needed, and this is just speculation.

I don’t think so.

Sorcelow
04-29-2020, 03:58 PM
It's pretty clear that a variant of Northwestern Greek was spoken in the region since at least the 4th century BCE given that inscriptions in this dialect have been found in the ancient city of Dodona, that date back to 370-368 BCE. The inscriptions also showed that tribesmen from both the Molossians and Thesprotians had Greek personal names. However, Strabo notes that some of the Epirotic tribes were bilingual, this is of interest since some of the names of the Epirotic chieftains mentioned by Thucydides do not have Greek etymologies.

Personally I agree with Croatian linguist, Radoslav Katičić, who states that the Epirotes originally spoke a Hellenic language that evolved separately from the other Hellenic languages due to the geographic distance of the region from the core centers of Hellenism. As well as the migration of non-Hellenic tribes from the north that led to bilingualism and the presence of foreign anthroponyms. https://archive.org/details/AncientLanguagesOfTheBalkans/page/n61/mode/2up/search/epirotic

There was definitely Illyrian influence in the area. Strabo, in describing the Epirotes, clearly differentiates them from the Illyrians but also mentions how "the Illyrian tribes which are near the southern part of the mountainous country and those which are above the Ionian Gulf are intermingled with these peoples; for above Epidamnus and Apollonia as far as the Ceraunian Mountains dwell the Bylliones, the Taulantii, the Parthini, and the Brygi."

trdbr1234
04-29-2020, 06:39 PM
I am looking for full text and book by Russian Albanog Alexander Novik - Ethnic Affiliation, Common Memory and Traditional Culture of Macedonian Muslims in Albania: Adaptating and Preserving the Identity (Fieldworks of 2008-2010)

Museum of Anthropology and Ethnography (Kunstkamera)
of the Russian Academy of Sciences, St. Petersburg, Russia

"The ethnonym B’lgari that is being imposed from outside is also used rarely. Bulgarian researchers have been conducting a lot of fieldwork research ius numerous stories about Bulgarian scholars who come and call the locals “Bulgarians”, but they don’t use this term among themselves – it happens only sporadically"

https://www.docdroid.net/yzyPlUz/145-1-261-1-10-20150930-pdf

Kelmendasi
04-29-2020, 07:39 PM
I am looking for full text and book by Russian Albanog Alexander Novik - Ethnic Affiliation, Common Memory and Traditional Culture of Macedonian Muslims in Albania: Adaptating and Preserving the Identity (Fieldworks of 2008-2010)

Museum of Anthropology and Ethnography (Kunstkamera)
of the Russian Academy of Sciences, St. Petersburg, Russia

"The ethnonym B’lgari that is being imposed from outside is also used rarely. Bulgarian researchers have been conducting a lot of fieldwork research ius numerous stories about Bulgarian scholars who come and call the locals “Bulgarians”, but they don’t use this term among themselves – it happens only sporadically"

https://www.docdroid.net/yzyPlUz/145-1-261-1-10-20150930-pdf
You can buy the book here https://www.adrionltd.com/en/ethnology/99889-golloborde-shqiperi.html, though it's difficult to say when it will arrive given the current situation.

It's interesting that the majority of the bilingual villages primarily identify as Albanians, from what I understand the use of other forms of self-identification are mainly found in the villages closer to the North Macedonian border. Also, the fact that self-identification as "Bulgarian" is very rare is interesting since most outsiders refer to them as such. For example, I know that some of the non-bilingual Albanian-speaking villages of the region refer to the bilingual villages as "Bullgar", I assume this is due to the fact that there is no distinction between the Bulgaro-Macedonian dialects.

trdbr1234
04-29-2020, 08:07 PM
You can buy the book here https://www.adrionltd.com/en/ethnology/99889-golloborde-shqiperi.html, though it's difficult to say when it will arrive given the current situation.

It's interesting that the majority of the bilingual villages primarily identify as Albanians, from what I understand the use of other forms of self-identification are mainly found in the villages closer to the North Macedonian border. Also, the fact that self-identification as "Bulgarian" is very rare is interesting since most outsiders refer to them as such. For example, I know that some of the non-bilingual Albanian-speaking villages of the region refer to the bilingual villages as "Bullgar", I assume this is due to the fact that there is no distinction between the Bulgaro-Macedonian dialects.

Nice, thanks for the link. I am hoping one of the more resourceful members has a digital copy somewhere

I do no't think what you stated is true. I am not aware of anyone from Borove, Okshtun, or even Vicisht, Lubalesh, Gjorice, and so on, of referring to the bilingual villages as Bulgar. Not sure where you read that but I do not believe that is true. It does not exist in a natural traditional sense, neither from the Bilingual or Albanian speaking villages of the region. What you are referring to is probably a modern notion of trying to make sense of the situation and using a Bulgar for simplistic reasons. But from a cultural and anthropological point of view, what you stated is incorrect.

Ofcourse, religious and linguistic situation in the region has been fluid. We can notice a pattern of Islamisation that leads to an Albanian identification, and those villages that converted the latest, to maintain bilingualism. Within this trend, we do ofcourse find that the Orthodox community leans itself the most to a Macedonian identification, and they are located more on the Eastern side. However, it is not as clear cut. Villages such as Lubalesh, Borove, Okshtun, and Smollik had until recently a Macedonian speaking part of the villages. Some Bullgarian anthropologists recorded some of these villages as entirely Bulgarian in the past, although it is difficult to say how accurate they were given their propagandistic tendencies.

As we discussed, one other factor that is missing is also the use Turkish which was widespread 100 years ago. We don't find any trace of Turkish even though its daily usage was as strong as Albanian and Bulgarian were.

Sorcelow
04-29-2020, 08:35 PM
Nice, thanks for the link. I am hoping one of the more resourceful members has a digital copy somewhere

I do no't think what you stated is true. I am not aware of anyone from Borove, Okshtun, or even Vicisht, Lubalesh, Gjorice, and so on, of referring to the bilingual villages as Bulgar. Not sure where you read that but I do not believe that is true. It does not exist in a natural traditional sense, neither from the Bilingual or Albanian speaking villages of the region. What you are referring to is probably a modern notion of trying to make sense of the situation and using a Bulgar for simplistic reasons. But from a cultural and anthropological point of view, what you stated is incorrect.

Ofcourse, religious and linguistic situation in the region has been fluid. We can notice a pattern of Islamisation that leads to an Albanian identification, and those villages that converted the latest, to maintain bilingualism. Within this trend, we do ofcourse find that the Orthodox community leans itself the most to a Macedonian identification, and they are located more on the Eastern side. However, it is not as clear cut. Villages such as Lubalesh, Borove, Okshtun, and Smollik had until recently a Macedonian speaking part of the villages. Some Bullgarian anthropologists recorded some of these villages as entirely Bulgarian in the past, although it is difficult to say how accurate they were given their propagandistic tendencies.

As we discussed, one other factor that is missing is also the use Turkish which was widespread 100 years ago. We don't find any trace of Turkish even though its daily usage was as strong as Albanian and Bulgarian were.

Is bilingualism in the region more recent, or has it always been present with Slavic being the mother tongue and Albanian as a secondary?

Kelmendasi
04-29-2020, 08:44 PM
Nice, thanks for the link. I am hoping one of the more resourceful members has a digital copy somewhere

I do no't think what you stated is true. I am not aware of anyone from Borove, Okshtun, or even Vicisht, Lubalesh, Gjorice, and so on, of referring to the bilingual villages as Bulgar. Not sure where you read that but I do not believe that is true. It does not exist in a natural traditional sense, neither from the Bilingual or Albanian speaking villages of the region. What you are referring to is probably a modern notion of trying to make sense of the situation and using a Bulgar for simplistic reasons. But from a cultural and anthropological point of view, what you stated is incorrect.

Ofcourse, religious and linguistic situation in the region has been fluid. We can notice a pattern of Islamisation that leads to an Albanian identification, and those villages that converted the latest, to maintain bilingualism. Within this trend, we do ofcourse find that the Orthodox community leans itself the most to a Macedonian identification, and they are located more on the Eastern side. However, it is not as clear cut. Villages such as Lubalesh, Borove, Okshtun, and Smollik had until recently a Macedonian speaking part of the villages. Some Bullgarian anthropologists recorded some of these villages as entirely Bulgarian in the past, although it is difficult to say how accurate they were given their propagandistic tendencies.

As we discussed, one other factor that is missing is also the use Turkish which was widespread 100 years ago. We don't find any trace of Turkish even though its daily usage was as strong as Albanian and Bulgarian were.
I have tried searching for a digital copy of the book, however I haven't found any. I doubt that there is a free online version.

I have heard the term being used by my mother's family when referring to those who also speak in the Bulgaro-Macedonian dialect. It's possible that they only refer to them as such for simplicity, as you suggested. I agree that it is incorrect to refer to them as "Bulgarians", given that the vast majority do not identify as such and the Slavic dialect spoken in the region is closest to the Western dialects of Macedonian.

As for the claims of certain Bulgarian anthropologists that some of the today exclusively Albanian-speaking villages had majority Bulgarian populations, they are suspicious. I know that Vasil Kanchov made claims that certain villages, such as Borovė, were exclusively inhabited by Bulgarians of the Orthodox faith (today it is solely inhabited by Muslim Albanians) during the early 20th century (or late 19th, don't remember exactly). However, I doubt this very much as most families can go further back genealogically, and have no memory of this. His claims also conflicted with those of other ethnographers. Many of the South Slavic studies in the area during the late 19th and early 20th centuries had clearly nationalistic agendas, take for example the work of Serbian ethnographer Milenko Filipović. He claims that the Slavic-speaking population of the region is not of Bulgaro-Macedonian origin, but rather Serbian. This is an absurd claim. However, I do not doubt that identification in the region was fluid and that some villages may have had different ethnic/linguistic pasts.

Yeah, the use of Turci as a form of identification is interesting. I would assume that this was an identification based on faith rather than linguistic or ethnic origin, it wasn't unheard of Muslim Albanians (or even Muslim South Slavs, take for example the Pomaks) to identify as Turkish, as well as Albanian, during the period of Ottoman rule. Do you know if this ethnonym was also used by the Orthodox Christians of the region?

trdbr1234
04-29-2020, 09:06 PM
Is bilingualism in the region more recent, or has it always been present with Slavic being the mother tongue and Albanian as a secondary?

I don't know. Some authors such as Mehmet Hasani make the claim that bilingualism was reinforced with the Serbian oppression of the 1913-1920. From some articles Ive read from Hilmi Sadikaj, he seems to also position that the Macedonian dialect of Slavic is a "borrowed" language. Although as I've stated, some other authors will assert that the liturgy was held in Macedonian and it is a incorrect statement to make that the Slavic language was not present. I don't really know the truth, to be honest.

I can tell you that Albanian is not a foreign language, nor would anyone claim that, just as I do not think Macedonian is foreign either, as Sadikaj and Hasani suggest.

I think the region has found itself in that sweet-spot of converging influences.

trdbr1234
04-29-2020, 09:16 PM
I have tried searching for a digital copy of the book, however I haven't found any. I doubt that there is a free online version.

I have heard the term being used by my mother's family when referring to those who also speak in the Bulgaro-Macedonian dialect. It's possible that they only refer to them as such for simplicity, as you suggested. I agree that it is incorrect to refer to them as "Bulgarians", given that the vast majority do not identify as such and the Slavic dialect spoken in the region is closest to the Western dialects of Macedonian.

As for the claims of certain Bulgarian anthropologists that some of the today exclusively Albanian-speaking villages had majority Bulgarian populations, they are suspicious. I know that Vasil Kanchov made claims that certain villages, such as Borovė, were exclusively inhabited by Bulgarians of the Orthodox faith (today it is solely inhabited by Muslim Albanians) during the early 20th century (or late 19th, don't remember exactly). However, I doubt this very much as most families can go further back genealogically, and have no memory of this. His claims also conflicted with those of other ethnographers. Many of the South Slavic studies in the area during the late 19th and early 20th centuries had clearly nationalistic agendas, take for example the work of Serbian ethnographer Milenko Filipović. He claims that the Slavic-speaking population of the region is not of Bulgaro-Macedonian origin, but rather Serbian. This is an absurd claim. However, I do not doubt that identification in the region was fluid and that some villages may have had different ethnic/linguistic pasts.

Yeah, the use of Turci as a form of identification is interesting. I would assume that this was an identification based on faith rather than linguistic or ethnic origin, it wasn't unheard of Muslim Albanians (or even Muslim South Slavs, take for example the Pomaks) to identify as Turkish, as well as Albanian, during the period of Ottoman rule. Do you know if this ethnonym was also used by the Orthodox Christians of the region?

I don't actually think the ethnic identification has changed much, tbh. Were talking about a time when nationalism didn't exist. We forget that nationalism is a modern construct. The tribal identification with Diber has always been present. That is the only real identity of the region. Language and religion is irrelevant within that context.

There was until 20 years ago, parts of these villages that did speak Macedonian though. Even-though the Majority held Albanian as the primary language.

No, Turci are still the enemy among the older inhabitants. :P

td120
04-29-2020, 10:19 PM
https://i.imgur.com/iDQ9ZLd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/BlRUJtz.jpg

Could anybody translate the remarks on top and bottom? Thanks!

Kelmendasi
04-29-2020, 10:31 PM
https://i.imgur.com/iDQ9ZLd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/BlRUJtz.jpg

Could anybody translate the remarks on top and bottom? Thanks!
The underlined section translates to: "list of villages where there are Bulgarian-speakers/Bulgarophones". It then lists the number of Muslim or Orthodox Christian houses and people in each village based on prefecture (the prefectures of Korēa and Dibra in this context).

The ending translates to: "The Muslims of the County of Dibra, even though they are Bulgarophone, consider themselves to be Albanian and do not want to be considered as a part of the Bulgarian minority".

td120
04-29-2020, 11:11 PM
Thanks a lot!

parapolitikos
04-30-2020, 03:04 AM
J2b-L283 has diversity and tmrca thoughout both Tosks and Ghegs separated by ~4500-5000 years. These clades are present in South Albania and North Albania for a very long time. There is no such thing as a Gheg invasion.

http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/J-L283.png
http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/J-Z638.png

That's a very nice and informative diagram. Unfortunately most Albanians refuse to comprehend it's implications.
There are 3 major brances .of J2b inAlbanians
z638>Z1295> ...>Z631
z638>y27522>...>Y23094.
Z638>y21045>...>y20899>... (>ph1751 +>y85522)
They are 4-5 thousands years apart from each other, before there was even a concept of Albanian language.Each have strong presence in different regions. Z631 in the south, Z20899 in the north, and Y23094 in Kosovo, or better yet in the east side of the Albanian Alps.The two first branches are old and diverse and the one very young . Y20899's two subclades, Ph1751 and its sister clade Y85522 have each a TRMCA of 1000 years. They are the majority of J2b lineages , 2/3rds and the only ones that are found in high numbers in all the Albanian sub-regions. Same is true about R-Z2705 more or less. As expected both J-Y20899 and R-Z2705 are also absent in Arbereshe, the original inhabitants of North Albania. The y-DNA evidence dont stop there of course,they are present in other Haplogroups too. All the above are consistent with the Gheg invasion model and one that is more probable that it occurred in the second half of the second millennia than the first one.The model is obviously also consistent with the historical and linguistic facts.
To summarize, the Gheg Invasion is the only model that explains all the evidence, but if you have another one put it forward.

Kelmendasi
04-30-2020, 03:40 AM
That's a very nice and informative diagram. Unfortunately most Albanians refuse to comprehend it's implications.
There are 3 major brances .of J2b inAlbanians
z638>Z1295> ...>Z631
z638>y27522>...>Y23094.
Z638>y21045>...>y20899>... (>ph1751 +>y85522)
They are 4-5 thousands years apart from each other, before there was even a concept of Albanian language.Each have strong presence in different regions. Z631 in the south, Z20899 in the north, and Y23094 in Kosovo, or better yet in the east side of the Albanian Alps.The two first branches are old and diverse and the one very young . Y20899's two subclades, Ph1751 and its sister clade Y85522 have each a TRMCA of 1000 years. They are the majority of J2b lineages , 2/3rds and the only ones that are found in high numbers in all the Albanian sub-regions. Same is true about R-Z2705 more or less. As expected both J-Y20899 and R-Z2705 are also absent in Arbereshe, the original inhabitants of North Albania. The y-DNA evidence dont stop there of course,they are present in other Haplogroups too. All the above are consistent with the Gheg invasion model and one that is more probable that it occurred in the second half of the second millennia than the first one.The model is obviously also consistent with the historical and linguistic facts.
To summarize, the Gheg Invasion is the only model that explains all the evidence, but if you have another one put it forward.
For starters, J2b-Y23094+ clusters are not primarily found in Kosovo or east of the Albanian Alps (Malėsia e Gjakovės). Y23094 and its downstreams are mainly found in the ethnographic region of Malėsia e Madhe, the highlands west of the Albanian Alps, with it being the dominant haplogroup of tribes from the region such as the Shkreli (Y23094>CTS8786) and Gruda (Y23094>Y82533*).

As for your statement that both PH1751 and Y85522 account for the majority of J2b-L283 lineages in Albania and are the most widespread, this is also incorrect. Whilst PH1751+ clusters are spread throughout Albania and Kosovo, and are the most common, Y85522 has a very limited spread. Y85522 is centered in the region of Mirditė and the surrounding areas of northern Albania (as well as in Albanians from Kosovo who have ancestry from said region). It has yet to be found elsewhere.

J2b-Y20899 and R-Z2705 are not absent in the Arbėreshė. Multiple Arbėreshė have in fact tested and we know for certain that they have Y20899+ and Z2705+ clusters that connect them to the Albanians of the Balkans. For example, Y20899>PH1751>Y46913 is shared with an Arbėreshė from Palermo, Sicily, and a couple Albanians from Tropojė and Kosovo. This information is also present on the diagram, so perhaps it's you who's unable to comprehend it.

You also make the claim that the Arbėreshė are the "original inhabitants of North Albania", this is false. The vast majority of the Albanian-speakers that fled to Italy upon the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans were from central and southern Albania, as well as from the Albanian community of the Peloponnese. This is made evident by the fact that they speak a Tosk dialect and practice in the Byzantine rite. Many Arbėreshė families are also aware of where they came from, for example the inhabitants of Villa Badessa (Badhesa) trace their origin back to the villages located near Himara and Saranda (e.g. Lukovė, Shėn Vasil, Piqeras etc). A minority of Albanians from north Albania fled to Italy during this time period, those that were in Italy had moved prior and were based in Venetian territories. You have made this claim multiple times despite being told that you are incorrect, so it's clear you are doing it intentionally.

As I said before, if you're going to intentionally post disinformation just because of your personal biases and agendas, do so elsewhere.

Johane Derite
04-30-2020, 02:43 PM
Can we get some moderation, this guy continues to derail this thread.

Kelmendasi
04-30-2020, 07:24 PM
Nice, thanks for the link. I am hoping one of the more resourceful members has a digital copy somewhere
I have found a digital copy of the book, unfortunately though it is not in English https://www.academia.edu/36485569/Golo_Bordo_Albania_Golloborda_Albania. I believe this version is in Russian.

parapolitikos
04-30-2020, 07:54 PM
For starters, J2b-Y23094+ clusters are not primarily found in Kosovo or east of the Albanian Alps (Malėsia e Gjakovės). Y23094 and its downstreams are mainly found in the ethnographic region of Malėsia e Madhe, the highlands west of the Albanian Alps, with it being the dominant haplogroup of tribes from the region such as the Shkreli (Y23094>CTS8786) and Gruda (Y23094>Y82533*).

As for your statement that both PH1751 and Y85522 account for the majority of J2b-L283 lineages in Albania and are the most widespread, this is also incorrect. Whilst PH1751+ clusters are spread throughout Albania and Kosovo, and are the most common, Y85522 has a very limited spread. Y85522 is centered in the region of Mirditė and the surrounding areas of northern Albania (as well as in Albanians from Kosovo who have ancestry from said region). It has yet to be found elsewhere.

J2b-Y20899 and R-Z2705 are not absent in the Arbėreshė. Multiple Arbėreshė have in fact tested and we know for certain that they have Y20899+ and Z2705+ clusters that connect them to the Albanians of the Balkans. For example, Y20899>PH1751>Y46913 is shared with an Arbėreshė from Palermo, Sicily, and a couple Albanians from Tropojė and Kosovo. This information is also present on the diagram, so perhaps it's you who's unable to comprehend it.

You also make the claim that the Arbėreshė are the "original inhabitants of North Albania", this is false. The vast majority of the Albanian-speakers that fled to Italy upon the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans were from central and southern Albania, as well as from the Albanian community of the Peloponnese. This is made evident by the fact that they speak a Tosk dialect and practice in the Byzantine rite. Many Arbėreshė families are also aware of where they came from, for example the inhabitants of Villa Badessa (Badhesa) trace their origin back to the villages located near Himara and Saranda (e.g. Lukovė, Shėn Vasil, Piqeras etc). A minority of Albanians from north Albania fled to Italy during this time period, those that were in Italy had moved prior and were based in Venetian territories. You have made this claim multiple times despite being told that you are incorrect, so it's clear you are doing it intentionally.

As I said before, if you're going to intentionally post disinformation just because of your personal biases and agendas, do so elsewhere.


That's just a typing mistake, should have written ''absent from Kosovo''. I i mis-typed my notes. Either way the point is that there are three distinct branches.That it is not found in Kosovo it actually strengthens the case of Gheg invasion . As i said earlier Z631 and Y230904 are old and diverse and form a (relative) continuity as they are closer to each other than they are to the Gheg clade. Z631 is certainly native in the region originating from South Albania. Y23094 is probably native in its region too, although it is distant enough to the clade found mainly in the South to raise questions. Its absence from Kosovo demonstrates(again) that Ghegs were a transplant in the Region and simply mixed with the local population of each region. We know for a fact that PH1751 is a young clade and all its carriers have a common ancestor from the last millennia. That alone is enough evidence for the Gheg invasion but it reveals much more. Any thinking person understand that the above mean that Kosovo ph1751 carriers , north Albanian Ph1751 carriers, south Albanian PH1751 and Fyrom carriers of PH1751 all originated from the same small population in the modern era. Which implies a very tight geographic proximity of the original population of the Ghegs. Wherever that cradle of Ghegs was, from where they expanded, it wasn't in North Albania. That said, i place an asterisk on the remote mountains region on extreme tip of N.Albania it on the borders of the 4 neighboring countries. If the forefathers of modern Ghegs had originated in North Albania, they would have carried with them the distinct clades(of many haplogroups) found in North Albania to Kosovo .They didnt .The only clades consistently present in all the regions are Z2705 and PH1751(and the smaller clades closely related to them along with some also minor clades from other Haplogroups found in the border area with Montenegro).

As for Arbereshe, the 2015 Study conducted on them,identified 70+% of the R1b as L51. L51 is found in a very low frequency in Ghegs, and in moderate frequency in South Albania.The L51 in South Albania could have been expanded there during the ancient times, or it could have been carried downwards with gheg colonists who previously mixed with locals of North Albania, or it could have been transplanted during the Arbereshe migration southwards. That brings us to the second pattern clearly evident from the Albanian Y-DNA Project. That North and South Albanians were basically two very different people. Distantly related at best.In all the haplogroups the pattern repeats it self. There is an old North Clade, an old South Clade and the Ghegs, who mixed with the respective regional population in each area they settled.

The Arbereshes Language, it was Tosk cause clearly Tosk was spoken in All of Albania at the time. Gheg language arrived in the region,well, with the..Ghegs and Gheg dominance.North Albania was a Byzantine stronghold for a millennia. Why are you surprised that it was of Byzantine rite? Catholicism in 14th century probably hadn't spread much further than the cities, as Latin Rule was barely a century old. That the Arbereshe were the original inhabitants of North Albanians dictated by the historical records not me.Which is reasonable, as the Venetian possessions were in North Albania.

Kelmendasi
04-30-2020, 08:38 PM
That's just a typing mistake, should have written ''absent from Kosovo''. I i mis-typed my notes. Either way the point is that there are three distinct branches.That it is not found in Kosovo it actually strengthens the case of Gheg invasion . As i said earlier Z631 and Y230904 are old and diverse and form a (relative) continuity as they are closer to each other than they are to the Gheg clade. Z631 is certainly native in the region originating from South Albania. Y23094 is probably native in its region too, although it is distant enough to the clade found mainly in the South to raise questions. Its absence from Kosovo demonstrates(again) that Ghegs were a transplant in the Region and simply mixed with the local population of each region. We know for a fact that PH1751 is a young clade and all its carriers have a common ancestor from the last millennia. That alone is enough evidence for the Gheg invasion but it reveals much more. Any thinking person understand that the above mean that Kosovo ph1751 carriers , north Albanian Ph1751 carriers, south Albanian PH1751 and Fyrom carriers of PH1751 all originated from the same small population in the modern era. Which implies a very tight geographic proximity of the original population of the Ghegs. Wherever that cradle of Ghegs was, from where they expanded, it wasn't in North Albania. That said, i place an asterisk on the remote mountains region on extreme tip of N.Albania it on the borders of the 4 neighboring countries. If the forefathers of modern Ghegs had originated in North Albania, they would have carried with them the distinct clades(of many haplogroups) found in North Albania to Kosovo .They didnt .The only clades consistently present in all the regions are Z2705 and PH1751(and the smaller clades closely related to them along with some also minor clades from other Haplogroups found in the border area with Montenegro).

As for Arbereshe, the 2015 Study conducted on them,identified 70+% of the R1b as L51. L51 is found in a very low frequency in Ghegs, and in moderate frequency in South Albania.The L51 in South Albania could have been expanded there during the ancient times, or it could have been carried downwards with gheg colonists who previously mixed with locals of North Albania, or it could have been transplanted during the Arbereshe migration southwards. That brings us to the second pattern clearly evident from the Albanian Y-DNA Project. That North and South Albanians were basically two very different people. Distantly related at best.In all the haplogroups the pattern repeats it self. There is an old North Clade, an old South Clade and the Ghegs, who mixed with the respective regional population in each area they settled.

The Arbereshes Language, it was Tosk cause clearly Tosk was spoken in All of Albania at the time. Gheg language arrived in the region,well, with the..Ghegs and Gheg dominance.North Albania was a Byzantine stronghold for a millennia. Why are you surprised that it was of Byzantine rite? Catholicism in 14th century probably hadn't spread much further than the cities, as Latin Rule was barely a century old. That the Arbereshe were the original inhabitants of North Albanians dictated by the historical records not me.Which is reasonable, as the Venetian possessions were in North Albania.
Yet again you show your ignorance. You also skip topics constantly, first from southern Albania and now to Kosovo. Kosovo is a very different topic to southern Albania, we know that an Albanian population was present there since the Medieval period due to Serbian and Ottoman records but their numbers were significantly lower than today. Then there was a migration of Albanians from northern Albania and Montenegro into the region during the Ottoman period, this is why we see clusters typical of some Albanian tribes there as well. There was no significant migration of Albanians from the north to southern Albania during the Ottoman period.

Do you know what a bottleneck is? Albanian clusters, and other Paleo-Balkan lines, have undergone multiple bottlenecks throughout the course of history. This is why PH1751 for example formed ~2,200ybp but the TMRCA lived ~1,150ybp. This does not mean that there weren't Albanians in the area before, it just means that these modern carriers descend from a cohesive group of Albanians that survived a particular event.

Could you provide evidence that over 70% of Arbėreshė R1b is R-L51? Anyways, this is not of any importance in regards to the origin of the Albanians. As has been stated prior to you Eupedia, the Arbėreshė have clearly had genetic input from their neighbouring Italians, using them as an example of what Albanians were like in the past is ludicrous. You also forget the fact that R-Z2705 is still present among them. By the way, the majority of their L51 is bound to be of more recent western origin and not Balkan, some that have tested belong to clusters such as DF27 for example. And Tosks do not have a "moderate frequency" of L51.

Tosk was certainly not the dialect spoken in all of Albania at the time, I honestly do not know where you got this idea. For starters the earliest written evidence of Albanian was in the Gheg dialect and dates back to 1462. It was a baptismal formula written by the Catholic Archbishop of Durrės, Pal Engjėlli, and has typical Gheg features such as a lack of rhotacism which cannot be Tosk. Venetian records from the early 15th century also show the formation of the tribes of northern Albania and Montenegro, they for sure were not Tosk as the Gheg spoken in those regions retains some of the more archaic features of Gheg and Albanian as a whole. After the schism of 1054 all of the churches north of the Shkumbin river fell under the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church and Pope. The Latin rite and Catholicism was then fortified among the Gheg population of northern Albania during the 12th century, when Catholic missions into the region became more common. So no, northern Albania at the time of the Ottoman occupation was not under Byzantine Orthodox jurisdiction. Could you provide historical evidence which suggests that the Arbėreshė came from northern Albania? As I stated previously the inhabitants have recollections of where they came from, they have memories of southern Albania and Morea not the north. What has Venice got to do with the Arbėreshė? The Arbėreshė migration to Italy was not supported by Venice, it was supported by the Kingdom of Naples. The fact that they even migrated to Italy suggests that they weren't from northern Albania or in Venetian territories, the Ottomans had yet to attack Venetian holdings in northern Albania.

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04-30-2020, 09:17 PM
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Tįltos
05-03-2020, 04:31 PM
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trdbr1234
05-03-2020, 08:06 PM
I have found a digital copy of the book, unfortunately though it is not in English https://www.academia.edu/36485569/Golo_Bordo_Albania_Golloborda_Albania. I believe this version is in Russian.

Awesome find, Kelmendasi.

I have finished reading the translated versions of Serbian Anthropologist Filipovic - Golo Brdo as well as the Russian Anthropologist Alexander Novik. There a few notes which I thought were interesting.

Filipovic's work has some obvious propaganda.

For one, he stated that the mythology of Skenderbeu that he found in Golloborde was probably a result of imposition from the Albanian state. At the same time he recorded the preserved oral history of mass migration to Italy with Skenderbeu. - This last part is what intrigued me. He also states that the entirety of Drimkoll is actually an integral part of Golloborde and an extension of it.


However, not only in Modric, which is today in Drimko nu and which could once also be an integral part of Golo Brdo (Debarski Drimkol is small

---------------------

5. The whole area of ​​only six settlements was given the name only in the Turkish times, and Golo Brdo is quite a large area), but in Golo Brdo there is talk of one. ancient emigration to Italy.
I mentioned that in the Golobor village of Drenko they know about emigration from Modric. From the emigrants from the village of Stebleva, which belonged to Arbanija, I listened to this. Stanko Zrbovic from Steblev worked in Thessaloniki with some Italians. When he told them that he was from Steblevo, then one of the Italians said that the village was not called Steblevo, but that its old name was Srebrenovo. Pause assured the truth of this when he was still asked if they had a church of St. He saved and developed a line called Gradiste, which Stanko confirmed to him. That the Italian had told him that there was a house of his ancients on Gradiste and that they had emigrated from there to Italy. The fact that many villages in Srebrenovo were once a village is evidence that in the Turkish times tax was paid as if they lived in the village of Srebrenovo, whose name was still kept on Turkish official lists, even though the village did not care long ago. Much more specific are the notions of emigration to Italy. The sanctuary is in Arbanija today, but, from Serb emigrants from that village who now live in Skopje, I heard that the population from all over Golog Brdo and from neighboring areas, the present Debar Malisi, was fleeing to I Thalia, at a time when the Turks had to to leave the fortified town in the village of Kojovci. Before fleeing, they buried their treasure, supposedly at a place called Golden or Do Brood Widow. An old selfish man used to be like a sealer with stood in Thessaloniki with workers from Italy, who also told him that they were originally from the area and that their ancestors were Orthodox in Italy as well.
Such and similar lectures can be heard elsewhere around De Bra and Ohrid. Mr. Dušan Nedeljković, Ph.D. univ, from Skopje, told me that he also heard about an ancient emigration to Italy in the village of Lokovo on the right side of the Black Drama (Strush cut). In the village of Vevcani in. In Ohrid Drimkol (Strush section), as well as in the neighboring villages, I listened a lot in 1935 to George Kastriotic: when he was sorry from here, then he took the people with him. On this occasion, the village of Oktisi, of which the Vevchans were part, was also abandoned. Forty years ago V. Knchov noted the tradition in Ohrid that when the Turks occupied that city, 3,000 Christians fled to Italy together for power.3)
No matter how incredible these tales may seem, they are without historical basis and even come from Italy.
In our country, the question of the authenticity of folk traditions is often raised. This is one more example of how the same folk traditions can contain memories of the same events and that they can and should be given attention in cases where there is no written news. Of course, you should be careful and apply a strict criterion. *) The days ago speak of Skenderbeg, and he really ruled the area in which those traditions were held, and indeed there was a large emigration from Skenderbe to Italy. Sam Skender Bey, anticipating what the final outcome of his fight with the Turks would be, also anticipated the expulsion of people from his country and sought to secure them. Thus, in the contract concluded on 4 October 1449 by Skenderbeg and Nikola Dukadjin on the one hand and the Venetian on the other,
the seventh member of the treaty that the Venetian Republic would receive in their mothers all the gentlemen and their subjects, who would be expelled from their countries by the Turks.) By the year 1449, the Turks had conquered a considerable part of Skenderbeg's country with the fortress of Svetigrad, and then certainly came until the expulsion and until that contract has been implemented.
in the 15th and 16th centuries, a considerable number of Serbs and Croats from the coastal regions moved to southern Italy, and there were many in Venice. With the pressure from the Turks and after the ultimately Failure of the Skenderbeg Resistance, a large part of Arbanas emigrated to Southern Italy, where they still exist today in considerable numbers. Of course, the Serb population of the Debar region also participated in these migrations, which was in the Skenderbeg government and in the neighborhood of Arbanas, and which was particularly striking for the Turks from the Skenderbeg countries. This is the case, for example. 1461 inhabited 60 Slavs (Schiavoni) in the area of ​​Otranto by one Arbanas.v) That among the Arbanas who crossed into Italy there were also Serbs in considerable numbers, the best evidence is that the Albanian (Toskˌis) settlers in Calabria, who they have been coming there since the 15th century, called Gallabar lhenj, i.e. Golobarđani, the people of Golo Brdo. ") It was, no doubt, a larger group of Serbs from Golo Brdo who could not be known to have previously had Arbanas, a group which then became Italian in Italy, being together with a larger group. Arbanas, but retained many Slovene elements in the language.3) That the Italians and the Arbanas were called Golobrdjan by Serbs is not unusual.

he gave many examples of how, in Italy, not only the native classes but also intellectuals often confused these colonized Slavs, Greeks and Arbanas with one another, especially the Slavs and Arbanas, since they could not distinguish Arbanas from the Slavs, since they were both They spoke languages ​​that they did not understand. ") Rešetar showed that the present-day Serbo-Croatian colonies in Southern Italy originated from settlers from Dalmatia, from the Littoral region between Cetin and Neretva, 10) but also pointed out the possibility that they were in addition to Ar banatas from the North Arbanis, who were earlier at the onset of the Turks than our Littoral, then went to Italy and the Serbs wrestled from Northern Arbanija, of which there were many more than today, and from Zeta. It is significant that tradition in Italy also binds Arbanassi and Famous for bringing their names in southern Italy to the name of B. Castri otto or Skenderbeg (1443-1468), it is likely, says Reshetar, that the first migrations began before Skenderbeg, since the Turks conquered Macedonia. 1371. The migration of the Slavs and Arbanas to southern Italy was especially after the Scan derbeg death.11) Since it is known in Italy that some Arba were also called Golobrđani and since it is known where Go Lo Brdo is, then the assumptions of prof. The grilles get an even bigger advantage. According to all of the above, there can be no doubt that in the 15th century there were evictions of Serbs and from the Debar region to Italy, and the legends of the Golobarci were not without a real basis. But the relocation of Golo Brdo to Italy was certainly at a later time, and even before that, the migrants could preserve the memory of Golo Brdo and send contributions to the church in Modrić to this day.


He stated that in Italy, a part of the population that arrived with Skenderbeu was called "Gallabardhenj". He links this with the mass migration that took place in Golloborde and the oral preservation of this migration to Italy. Is there any support for the "Gallabardhenj" among the Arberesh?



In addition, he also records in 1940 the story of Ataturk being from Golloborde. He records Sebisht as Ataturk origin, which is partly true. Ataturk mother is from Sebisht and his father from Stebleve. Both his parents were from Golloborde.


I have heard in several places that a Muslim Muslim from Sebisht has moved to Thessaloniki and that his descendant is former Turkish Republic President Kemal Ataturk.

Kelmendasi
05-03-2020, 08:46 PM
Awesome find, Kelmendasi.

I have finished reading the translated versions of Serbian Anthropologist Filipovic - Golo Brdo as well as the Russian Anthropologist Alexander Novik. There a few notes which I thought were interesting.

Filipovic's work has some obvious propaganda.

For one, he stated that the mythology of Skenderbeu that he found in Golloborde was probably a result of imposition form the Albanian state. At the same time he recorded the preserved oral history of mass migration to Italy with Skenderbeu. - This last part is what intrigued me. He also states that the entirety of Drimkoll is actually an integral part of Golloborde and an extension of it.



He stated that in Italy, a part of the population that arrived with Skenderbeu was called "Gallabardhenj". He links this with the mass migration that took place in Golloborde and the oral preservation of this migration to Italy. Is there any support for the "Gallabardhenj" among the Arberesh?
The claim that a population descending from Gollobordė migrated to Italy during the 15th century is also made by Montenegrin ethnologist Špiro Kulišić in his book; Stara Slovenska Religija U Svjetlu Novijih Istraživanja Posebno Balkanoloških. Like Filipović, he states that these settlers were Slavic-speaking and had settled around Calabria.

As for the historical validity of these claims, whilst the settlement of a Slavic-speaking population in southern Italy during the Medieval period is factual, I cannot find any other references to the "Gallabardhenj" outside of Kulišić and Filipović. Italian Giovanni de Rubertis believed that the Croat community of Molise was descended from Serbo-Croatian-speakers that arrived alongside the Albanians during Skanderbeg's campaign in Italy. I can't find historical sources that support this however, there for sure was a Slavic minority in the area, as is suggested by toponyms (e.g. Castellucium de Slavis). There was then another wave of settlement during the 16th century from Dalmatia.

I also wanted to note that the name Gallabardhenj seems to me like an Albanian name for this group, rather than a Serbo-Croatian or Bulgaro-Macedonian one. So even if a migration from the region into Italy is true (quite possibly due to the fact that soldiers from around Dibėr did serve under Skanderbeg), claiming that they were Slavic-speaking is dubious.

trdbr1234
05-03-2020, 09:25 PM
The claim that a population descending from Gollobordė migrated to Italy during the 15th century is also made by Montenegrin ethnologist Špiro Kulišić in his book; Stara Slovenska Religija U Svjetlu Novijih Istraživanja Posebno Balkanoloških. Like Filipović, he states that these settlers were Slavic-speaking and had settled around Calabria.

As for the historical validity of these claims, whilst the settlement of a Slavic-speaking population in southern Italy during the Medieval period is factual, I cannot find any other references to the "Gallabardhenj" outside of Kulišić and Filipović. Italian Giovanni de Rubertis believed that the Croat community of Molise was descended from Serbo-Croatian-speakers that arrived alongside the Albanians during Skanderbeg's campaign in Italy. I can't find historical sources that support this however, there for sure was a Slavic minority in the area, as is suggested by toponyms (e.g. Castellucium de Slavis). There was then another wave of settlement during the 16th century from Dalmatia.

I also wanted to note that the name Gallabardhenj seems to me like an Albanian name for this group, rather than a Serbo-Croatian or Bulgaro-Macedonian one. So even if a migration from the region into Italy is true (quite possibly due to the fact that soldiers from around Dibėr did serve under Skanderbeg), claiming that they were Slavic-speaking is dubious.

Yeah, I am unsure about the Slavic speaking part either. At the same time, Kastirotis own family showed affinity with the Serbs and some level of duo-influence can be noted among their names. Some level of bilingualism is possible but as you noted, it does seem unlikely and is most probably a result of modern nationalism.

There is this book Origjina e Gollobordasve tė Dibrės (Kalabardhėt), Agim R. Kasa.
https://www.shtepiaelibrit.com/store/en/albanian-history/6765-origjina-e-gollobordasve-te-dibres-kalabardhet-agim-r-kasa-9789928292209.html

Kalabardhet is noted more than once as the likely name of the region and Golloborde as a result of phonetic influences through Slavic. (likely imposed). I will try to find the book by Agim Kasa.

From Alexander Novik, I found this page interesting. (page 25)


Kurki - the pejorative name of the Golobord people from the side of villagers from the eastern shore of Debar lake[Zhupa]; Shopјe - the pejorative name of the Golobordans, but also of the other inhabitants of Debar; Obјalo - pejorative name from the side of the Golobordians for the Rekans; Latini is the name of the inhabitants of the Albanian villages of Zabzun and Zerqan.

The full Diber pejorative circle-jerk. :D



The main occupations of the population are field farming and animal husbandry, but men work in large numbers throughout the Balkans (in the 20th century, mainly in Albania and Greece) as bricklayers and carpenters (specializing in the construction of residential buildings, bridges, roads, tower towers, swords tei, minarets, factories and furnaces); it was the brigades of craftsmen from this region that distributed the widely known Dibran or Debar type of house throughout the peninsula (see the Ethnographic Museum in Pirot, Shkodra / Skadar, Berat, Kastoria, etc.).

And, Alexander Novik postulates that the common "Balkan" type of housing we see in the Balkans in actually from Diber and it was spread throughout Albania, Balkans and Turkey by masons from Golloborde.

I think he is referring to these types of houses that we find concentrated in the Diber ethnographic area. Very very interesting.

https://i1.wp.com/wander-lush.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Emily-Lush-Berat-Albania-46.jpg?resize=900%2C600&ssl=1

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQ-hbKg8nMF-IZyMjaqGmHE8XKssria37DeKpK1ilPpqEDI9btg&usqp=CAU

Kelmendasi
05-03-2020, 10:07 PM
Yeah, I am unsure about the Slavic speaking part either. At the same time, Kastirotis own family showed affinity with the Serbs and some level of duo-influence can be noted among their names. Some level of bilingualism is possible but as you noted, it does seem unlikely and is most probably a result of modern nationalism.

There is this book Origjina e Gollobordasve tė Dibrės (Kalabardhėt), Agim R. Kasa.
https://www.shtepiaelibrit.com/store/en/albanian-history/6765-origjina-e-gollobordasve-te-dibres-kalabardhet-agim-r-kasa-9789928292209.html

Kalabardhet is noted more than once as the likely name of the region and Golloborde as a result of phonetic influences through Slavic. (likely imposed). I will try to find the book by Agim Kasa.

From Alexander Novik, I found this page interesting. (page 25)



The full Diber pejorative circle-jerk. :D




And, Alexander Novik postulates that the common "Balkan" type of housing we see in the Balkans in actually from Diber and it was spread throughout Albania, Balkans and Turkey by masons from Golloborde.

I think he is referring to these types of houses that we find concentrated in the Diber ethnographic area. Very very interesting.

https://i1.wp.com/wander-lush.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Emily-Lush-Berat-Albania-46.jpg?resize=900%2C600&ssl=1

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQ-hbKg8nMF-IZyMjaqGmHE8XKssria37DeKpK1ilPpqEDI9btg&usqp=CAU
Many Medieval Albanian noble families had ties to the Slavic aristocracy, be it Serbian or Bulgarian, in order to further their own political or even religious agendas or positions. Many of these ties were created through marriages. Gjergj Kastrioti's own mother, Voisava, was likely of Serb or Bulgarian descent, with the former being more likely since her last name, Tripalda, seems to be a form of the word Triballi. At the time this was used as an exonym for Serbs. This is what explains the fact that many of Skanderbeg's siblings have Slavic (folk and Orthodox) names. Though we also know that Gjon Kastrioti, Skanderbeg's father, would ally himself with the Serbian Despotate and even convert to Orthodox Christianity on multiple occasions to better his political standing.
The ethnic origin of the Kastrioti family however is almost certainly Albanian.

It is true that many of the skilled builders of Albania during the period of Ottoman occupation were in fact from Golloborda. Their work was known throughout the nation and even outside of it, even in the tribal regions of northern Albania are builders from the region mentioned. As for the origin of this form of architecture, I am not too sure as Ottoman architecture in general had a lot of influence from the older Byzantine architecture. Though I do agree that builders from Golloborda may have helped in spreading this form of architecture across the Balkans.

trdbr1234
05-04-2020, 01:26 AM
Many Medieval Albanian noble families had ties to the Slavic aristocracy, be it Serbian or Bulgarian, in order to further their own political or even religious agendas or positions. Many of these ties were created through marriages. Gjergj Kastrioti's own mother, Voisava, was likely of Serb or Bulgarian descent, with the former being more likely since her last name, Tripalda, seems to be a form of the word Triballi. At the time this was used as an exonym for Serbs. This is what explains the fact that many of Skanderbeg's siblings have Slavic (folk and Orthodox) names. Though we also know that Gjon Kastrioti, Skanderbeg's father, would ally himself with the Serbian Despotate and even convert to Orthodox Christianity on multiple occasions to better his political standing.
The ethnic origin of the Kastrioti family however is almost certainly Albanian.

It is true that many of the skilled builders of Albania during the period of Ottoman occupation were in fact from Golloborda. Their work was known throughout the nation and even outside of it, even in the tribal regions of northern Albania are builders from the region mentioned. As for the origin of this form of architecture, I am not too sure as Ottoman architecture in general had a lot of influence from the older Byzantine architecture. Though I do agree that builders from Golloborda may have helped in spreading this form of architecture across the Balkans.


Do you mean through oral tradition, or something specific mentioned?

Agim BEKTESHI in "Shkolla Gollobordase e Ndėrtimtarisė" mentions some of the work Gollobordans have done in Shkodra. From reading Bekteshis works, you get the impression that Alexander Novik is correct in his statement. Although from reading the history of who build the bridge or any of the structures, writers from Shkodra seem to create false mythology instead of stating that teams from Golloborde build them. Like this article, http://www.gazetatema.net/2017/09/12/fotot-historiku-i-vecante-i-ures-se-mesit-ne-shkoder-dhe-arsyeja-pse-eshte-bekim-per-ciftet-e-reja/

It seems common in the historiography of Albania to omit Golloborde from the history. They instead build ridiculous mythologies of their "great past" and "skillful ingenuity" of their krahine. lolll Which is ridiculous. Not just common in Shkodra but elsewhere as well. That is why I am curious where you have heard or read that?



Agim BEKTESHI "Shkolla Gollobordase e Ndėrtimtarisė"

Gollobordasit kanė qenė dhe janė mjeshtėr tė dėgjuar nė ndėrtimin e urave, minareve, kambanareve tė kishave, nė gdhendjen e ikonostaseve me motive nga mė tė bukurit e mistikėt. Tė gjitha ndėrtimet kishėtare dhe banesat e tjera tė klerikėve tė Patriarkanės ortodokse Bullgare, kur ajo Patriarkanė e kishte selinė e vet nė Ohėr, manastiri i Ardenicės, manastiri i Shėn Jonit nė Elbasan, manastiri i Shėn Naumit nė Ohėr, kisha e Shėn Spasit nė Shkup, manastiri i Deēanit nė Kosovė, manastiri serb i Hilandarit nė siujdhesėn e Halkidhikisė nė Greqinė veri – lindore, Fari i Selanikut i quajtur “Lefkos Pirgos”, ura mbi lumin Vardar nė fushat e Anatolikosė sė Selanikut, shumė kalldrėme nė qytetet kryesore tė perandorisė turke; tė Stambollit, Izmirit, Edrenesė, etj; disa banesa vezirėsh e pashallarėsh tė perandorisė osmane, vilat e banimit tė krerėve tė shtetit shqiptar, deri dhe ato tė Enver Hoxhės e Mehmet Shehut, shtėpia e Kryeministrit Mehmet Shehu nė Ēorrush tė Mallakastrės, kulla e Isa Boletinit nė afėrsi tė Pejės, e ndėrtuar nė vitin 1898, kullat e Istogut nė Kosovė, kullat e sahateve nė disa qytete tė Shqipėrisė sė Mesme, vila e Margaret Hazllėk nė qytetin e Elbasanit, ura e Vezirit nė qytetin e Kukėsit tė vjetėr, ura e Mesit nė Shkodėr me 13 harqe, 108 metra e gjatė, e cila ėshtė ura mė e gjatė e kėtij lloji nė trojet shqiptare, e ndėrtuar e gjitha me gurė; pėr ndėrtimin e sė cilės Bushatllinjtė pajtuan mjeshtėr ndėrtimi nga Golloborda, xhamia e Plumbit nė Shkodėr, e investuar edhe ajo nga Bushatllinjtė, tė cilėt pėr ndėrtimin e saj pėrsėri pajtuan vetėm ndėrtues gollobordas, janė objekte tė ndėrtuara nga mjeshtėrit gollobordas tė ndėrtimit. Edhe Piaca e Shkodrės dhe ndėrtesat rreth e rrotull saj, midis tė cilave banesa fortesė e Preng Bibė Dodė Pashės, e cila mė vonė do tė trashėgohej nga bajraktari i njohur Gjon Marka Gjoni, objekte qė u ideuan nga Kolė Idromeno, janė punė tė zbatuara nga ndėrtuesit gollobordas. Punė e realizuar nga mjeshtėrit gollobordas ėshtė edhe teatri “Migjeni” nė qytetin e Shkodrės. Gollobordasit ishin gjėrėsisht tė njohur e tė afirmuar si ndėrtues nė qytetin e Shkodrės, por dhe mė tej, gjer nė thellėsitė e Jugosllavisė.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Ura_e_Mesit_Mbi_Perroin_e_Kirit_05.jpg/800px-Ura_e_Mesit_Mbi_Perroin_e_Kirit_05.jpg

Kelmendasi
05-04-2020, 01:59 AM
Do you mean through oral tradition, or something specific mentioned?

Agim BEKTESHI in "Shkolla Gollobordase e Ndėrtimtarisė" mentions some of the work Gollobordans have done in Shkodra. From reading Bekteshis works, you get the impression that Alexander Novik is correct in his statement. Although from reading the history of who build the bridge or any of the structures, writers from Shkodra seem to create false mythology instead of stating that teams from Golloborde build them. Like this article, http://www.gazetatema.net/2017/09/12/fotot-historiku-i-vecante-i-ures-se-mesit-ne-shkoder-dhe-arsyeja-pse-eshte-bekim-per-ciftet-e-reja/

It seems common in the historiography of Albania to omit Golloborde from the history. They instead build ridiculous mythologies of their "great past" and "skillful ingenuity" of their krahine. lolll Which is ridiculous. Not just common in Shkodra but elsewhere as well. That is why I am curious where you have heard or read that?



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Ura_e_Mesit_Mbi_Perroin_e_Kirit_05.jpg/800px-Ura_e_Mesit_Mbi_Perroin_e_Kirit_05.jpg
In the book High Albania by Edith Durham, it is mentioned that the church of Bajzė in Malėsi has an inscription of the name of its builder; Selim Debra (Dibra). She then says that: "The best builders in North Albania are Moslems from Debra" https://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/durham/albania/albania.html.

Now she may be referring to those from Debar in North Macedonia or the wider region of Dibėr, but she could also be referring to those from Gollobordė given the reputation the area has for building and construction.

Keqa
05-04-2020, 04:30 AM
Interesting

https://imgur.com/CL5HROv

vettor
05-04-2020, 05:03 AM
You also make the claim that the Arbėreshė are the "original inhabitants of North Albania", this is false. The vast majority of the Albanian-speakers that fled to Italy upon the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans were from central and southern Albania, as well as from the Albanian community of the Peloponnese. This is made evident by the fact that they speak a Tosk dialect and practice in the Byzantine rite. Many Arbėreshė families are also aware of where they came from, for example the inhabitants of Villa Badessa (Badhesa) trace their origin back to the villages located near Himara and Saranda (e.g. Lukovė, Shėn Vasil, Piqeras etc). A minority of Albanians from north Albania fled to Italy during this time period, those that were in Italy had moved prior and were based in Venetian territories. You have made this claim multiple times despite being told that you are incorrect, so it's clear you are doing it intentionally.

As I said before, if you're going to intentionally post disinformation just because of your personal biases and agendas, do so elsewhere.

Agree

Note that Venice only ruled Durres in modern Albania and Venetian holdings where in modern Montenegro, Dalmatian, Croatia , Istria , Corfu ( in that area ) .............Venetian-Albania was a Montenegro area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Albania
Even though the name Montenegro came from the Venetian language meaning black mountain, it was not named that under Venetian rule .......Dalmatians where in the northern coastal areas of Montenegro and southern coastal Montenegro was a mix of albanians, serbians and a few bulgars via vlachs.
venetian gave up on the albanians after the battle of Fornovo , and so the Albanians sought alliance with the kingdom of naples ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fornovo

in regards to L283 marker, it is recognized as Dalmatian even though it is older than that and it came via Vudecol culture and cetina culture

IMO, Tosks and Ghegs are 2 different ancient ethnic race .....there is a difference, same as there is between the etruscans and the Ligurians , Italians now, but not in the past

Kelmendasi
05-04-2020, 02:16 PM
Interesting

https://imgur.com/CL5HROv
Yeah it indeed is very interesting, the guy is a distant cousin of ours. Would be best to try and test some families from Guri i Bardhė in order to try and validate the oral tradition. It's also mentioned that some families moved to Borovė from Librazhd, Ēermenika and Macukull.

Kelmendasi
05-04-2020, 02:41 PM
Agree

Note that Venice only ruled Durres in modern Albania and Venetian holdings where in modern Montenegro, Dalmatian, Croatia , Istria , Corfu ( in that area ) .............Venetian-Albania was a Montenegro area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Albania
Even though the name Montenegro came from the Venetian language meaning black mountain, it was not named that under Venetian rule .......Dalmatians where in the northern coastal areas of Montenegro and southern coastal Montenegro was a mix of albanians, serbians and a few bulgars via vlachs.
venetian gave up on the albanians after the battle of Fornovo , and so the Albanians sought alliance with the kingdom of naples ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fornovo

in regards to L283 marker, it is recognized as Dalmatian even though it is older than that and it came via Vudecol culture and cetina culture

IMO, Tosks and Ghegs are 2 different ancient ethnic race .....there is a difference, same as there is between the etruscans and the Ligurians , Italians now, but not in the past
Venice had various holdings in Albania during this time period, not only Durrės. Up until the late 15th century the Venetians held both the towns of Shkodra and Lezha in northern Albania, with the former being lost to the Ottomans in 1479 and the latter in 1478 (though it fell back into Venetian control for short period of time between 1501-1506). Durrės itself was lost in 1501. Venice also held towns in southern Albania, such as Vlora, however they were lost rather early on during the Ottoman conquest of the region.

As for Venetian Albania, the region was originally named as such because it had included a significant amount of the Albanian coast and some of the inland. The name was kept even after these territories were lost as Venice did not want to renounce its claims in the region.

Calling the Tosks and Ghegs two "different ancient ethnic race" is not substantiated by linguistic or genetic evidence. For starters we know for a fact that both Gheg Albanian and Tosk Albanian dialects diverged from Late Proto-Albanian (or Early Proto-Albanian according to Matasović and his definitions) sometime after the spread of Christianity in the region and a bit before the Slavic migrations into the Balkans. So it's clear that both dialectal sub-groups came from the same ancestral population that lived during the first couple centuries CE, not two separate ones. After the split both groups began evolving rather separately from each other in different geographic areas, so certain genetic differences are to be expected.

I wouldn't compare them to the Ligurians and Italians, since it's theorised that the Ligurian language belonged to a completely different branch of IE than Latin (Italic).

vettor
05-04-2020, 06:58 PM
Venice had various holdings in Albania during this time period, not only Durrės. Up until the late 15th century the Venetians held both the towns of Shkodra and Lezha in northern Albania, with the former being lost to the Ottomans in 1479 and the latter in 1478 (though it fell back into Venetian control for short period of time between 1501-1506). Durrės itself was lost in 1501. Venice also held towns in southern Albania, such as Vlora, however they were lost rather early on during the Ottoman conquest of the region.

As for Venetian Albania, the region was originally named as such because it had included a significant amount of the Albanian coast and some of the inland. The name was kept even after these territories were lost as Venice did not want to renounce its claims in the region.

Calling the Tosks and Ghegs two "different ancient ethnic race" is not substantiated by linguistic or genetic evidence. For starters we know for a fact that both Gheg Albanian and Tosk Albanian dialects diverged from Late Proto-Albanian (or Early Proto-Albanian according to Matasović and his definitions) sometime after the spread of Christianity in the region and a bit before the Slavic migrations into the Balkans. So it's clear that both dialectal sub-groups came from the same ancestral population that lived during the first couple centuries CE, not two separate ones. After the split both groups began evolving rather separately from each other in different geographic areas, so certain genetic differences are to be expected.

I wouldn't compare them to the Ligurians and Italians, since it's theorised that the Ligurian language belonged to a completely different branch of IE than Latin (Italic).

Ok a border town ............https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Shkodra ...............Zeta is in north montenegro , a serbian principality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta_under_the_Crnojevi%C4%87i

It was not named venetian-Albania because of the people ......it was named as a zone for military use......the capital was
The Dominions of Venice were centered around the "Bocche di Cattaro" (Bay of Kotor) and included the small cities of Cattaro (Kotor), Risano (Risan), Perasto (Perast).
Venice started to take control of the small southern Dalmatian villages around the 10th century, assimilating quickly the neolatin "Dalmatian language" of the coastal areas into the Venetian language. But only in the 14th century was the Republic of Venice able to create a territorial continuity around the Bay of Kotor. These Venetian dominions around Cattaro (Kotor) lasted from 1420 to 1797 and were called Albania Veneta, a historical province of the Republic of Venice.[3]
According to the Dalmatian historian Luigi Paulucci (in his book "Le Bocche di Cattaro nel 1810") the population of the Albania Veneta, during the centuries of the Republic of Venice, was mainly Venetian speaking (approximately 66%) in the urban areas (Cattaro, Perasto, Budua, ecc..) around the "Bocche di Cattaro" (Bay of Kotor).

But in the inland areas more than half of the population was Serbo-Croatian speaking, after the first years of the eighteenth century. Paulucci wrote even that near the border with Albania there were big communities of Albanian speaking people: Dulcigno (Ulcinj) was half Albanian, one quarter Venetian and one quarter Slavic-speaking.[7]




Did not the Albanian government in 1973 decide to use only the Tosk dialect as the only official language in Albania and irate the Gheg speakers ?

Hawk
05-04-2020, 07:31 PM
Agree

Note that Venice only ruled Durres in modern Albania and Venetian holdings where in modern Montenegro, Dalmatian, Croatia , Istria , Corfu ( in that area ) .............Venetian-Albania was a Montenegro area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Albania
Even though the name Montenegro came from the Venetian language meaning black mountain, it was not named that under Venetian rule .......Dalmatians where in the northern coastal areas of Montenegro and southern coastal Montenegro was a mix of albanians, serbians and a few bulgars via vlachs.
venetian gave up on the albanians after the battle of Fornovo , and so the Albanians sought alliance with the kingdom of naples ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fornovo

in regards to L283 marker, it is recognized as Dalmatian even though it is older than that and it came via Vudecol culture and cetina culture

IMO, Tosks and Ghegs are 2 different ancient ethnic race .....there is a difference, same as there is between the etruscans and the Ligurians , Italians now, but not in the past

E-V13 and R1b is equally shared among Ghegs and Tosks, the only difference is higher amount of J2b2 among Ghegs. It could be that Dalmatians after Slavic migrations migrated deeper in South. To be noted, Slavs migrated into a land already in a deep demographic crisis after the VI century pandemics.

I rather think there was a difference between Dalmatian and Pannonian Illyrians vs Illyrians from Albania. Though, the Y-DNA and autosomal of that Bronze Age Pre - Dalmatian doesn't really make any sense, he should have higher CHG.



The plague pandemic in 541–543 and successive outbreaks of the disease till the latter half of the 8th century caused a deep demographic crisis in the Eastern Roman Empire. The most important effects of the plague were a shortage of manpower and a growing importance of marginal barbarian populations, which had suffered less or not at all from the disease. Demographic, political and economic consequences of the pandemic likely caused or at least facilitated Slavic expansion in the Balkans between the 6th and 8th century. The Slavs began to raid intensively and then settle the European provinces of the Roman Empire soon after the first outbreak of the plague and available textual evidence suggests that this region was depopulated by the disease and neglected by the government. During the 7th century, the Empire’s administration and economy collapsed due to the effects of the plague and the existing system of land taxation and central provisioning of professional armies must have been replaced by regional organization of territorial troops recruited from free peasant farmers. In the new circumstances, the Slavs, who had in the meantime re-populated the Balkans, constituted an abundant source of manpower for a restored Empire.


https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270956735_The_plague_pandemic_and_Slavic_expansion _in_the_6th-8th_centuries

vettor
05-04-2020, 07:39 PM
E-V13 and R1b is equally shared among Ghegs and Tosks, the only difference is higher amount of J2b2 among Ghegs. It could be that Dalmatians after Slavic migrations migrated deeper in South. To be noted, Slavs migrated into a land already in a deep demographic crisis after the VI century pandemics.

I rather think there was a difference between Dalmatian and Pannonian Illyrians vs Illyrians from Albania. Though, the Y-DNA and autosomal of that Bronze Age Pre - Dalmatian doesn't really make any sense, he should have higher CHG.

The dalmatians only moved into modern Montenegro while fighting the romans in the 4 year Great illyrian revolt ...........where Dalmatians + Pannonian ( the Illyrians ) fled south to escape the massacres

the people ( illyrians ) who fought in this revolt

https://i.postimg.cc/Nj15bRM6/number-illyrians.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

as you can see...75% plus of Illyrian population comprises of Dalmatians and pannonians as per Roman census

Kelmendasi
05-04-2020, 07:39 PM
Ok a border town ............https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Shkodra ...............Zeta is in north montenegro , a serbian principality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta_under_the_Crnojevi%C4%87i

It was not named venetian-Albania because of the people ......it was named as a zone for military use......the capital was
The Dominions of Venice were centered around the "Bocche di Cattaro" (Bay of Kotor) and included the small cities of Cattaro (Kotor), Risano (Risan), Perasto (Perast).
Venice started to take control of the small southern Dalmatian villages around the 10th century, assimilating quickly the neolatin "Dalmatian language" of the coastal areas into the Venetian language. But only in the 14th century was the Republic of Venice able to create a territorial continuity around the Bay of Kotor. These Venetian dominions around Cattaro (Kotor) lasted from 1420 to 1797 and were called Albania Veneta, a historical province of the Republic of Venice.[3]
According to the Dalmatian historian Luigi Paulucci (in his book "Le Bocche di Cattaro nel 1810") the population of the Albania Veneta, during the centuries of the Republic of Venice, was mainly Venetian speaking (approximately 66%) in the urban areas (Cattaro, Perasto, Budua, ecc..) around the "Bocche di Cattaro" (Bay of Kotor).

But in the inland areas more than half of the population was Serbo-Croatian speaking, after the first years of the eighteenth century. Paulucci wrote even that near the border with Albania there were big communities of Albanian speaking people: Dulcigno (Ulcinj) was half Albanian, one quarter Venetian and one quarter Slavic-speaking.[7]




Did not the Albanian government in 1973 decide to use only the Tosk dialect as the only official language in Albania and irate the Gheg speakers ?
Border towns or not, Venice still held lands throughout Albania and not only Durrės. This lists the Venetian holdings that fell under the zone and governance of Shkodra between 1416-1417, as well as their populations https://www.academia.edu/33718705/AKADEMIA_E_SHKENCAVE_E_REPUBUKES_TE_SHQIPERISE.

Nobody claimed that it was named Venetian Albania because of its ethnic make up, it was initially named as such due to the fact that it initially stretched across the Albanian coast and into the coast of Montenegro. Venice maintained the name despite its territorial losses in the region as they wanted to keep their claims over certain towns and zones, the province became centered around Kotor after Venetian holdings in Albania were lost. As for the demographic make up of the province, during the Middle Ages it was bound to have a considerable Albanian-speaking population given the fact that the province included territories in Albania. This is shown in the register that I linked. However, later on with the loss of land in Albania, this population obviously would have decreased and would be centered in the southern coast of Montenegro.

Standard Albanian was already being implemented in Albania before 1973 due to the Communist regime that was dominated by Tosk officials, it is only that in 1973 the Albanian Orthography Congress agreed for the dialect to be the dialect used across Albanian-speaking regions, including Kosovo. Should also be noted that the Standard dialect does have some influence from Geg, albeit to a small degree. As for unrest among the Geg Albanian population, as far as I know there hasn't been any major or significant civil unrest. Anyways, what has this got to do with the previous post?

vettor
05-04-2020, 07:52 PM
Border towns or not, Venice still held lands throughout Albania and not only Durrės. This lists the Venetian holdings that fell under the zone and governance of Shkodra between 1416-1417, as well as their populations https://www.academia.edu/33718705/AKADEMIA_E_SHKENCAVE_E_REPUBUKES_TE_SHQIPERISE.

Nobody claimed that it was named Venetian Albania because of its ethnic make up, it was initially named as such due to the fact that it initially stretched across the Albanian coast and into the coast of Montenegro. Venice maintained the name despite its territorial losses in the region as they wanted to keep their claims over certain towns and zones, the province became centered around Kotor after Venetian holdings in Albania were lost. As for the demographic make up of the province, during the Middle Ages it was bound to have a considerable Albanian-speaking population given the fact that the province included territories in Albania. This is shown in the register that I linked. However, later on with the loss of land in Albania, this population obviously would have decreased and would be centered in the southern coast of Montenegro.

Standard Albanian was already being implemented in Albania before 1973 due to the Communist regime that was dominated by Tosk officials, it is only that in 1973 the Albanian Orthography Congress agreed for the dialect to be the dialect used across Albanian-speaking regions, including Kosovo. Should also be noted that the Standard dialect does have some influence from Geg, albeit to a small degree. As for unrest among the Geg Albanian population, as far as I know there hasn't been any major or significant civil unrest. Anyways, what has this got to do with the previous post?

which other towns ? ....i want to check



Butrint https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butrint .....for only 1 year in southern Albania

venetian governors for military and in general of Albania-Veneta

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Venetian_governors_of_Kotor

Kelmendasi
05-04-2020, 08:20 PM
which other towns ? ....i want to check



Butrint https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butrint .....for only 1 year in southern Albania

venetian governors for military and in general of Albania-Veneta

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Venetian_governors_of_Kotor
For starters there are the major towns and ports of northern Albania: Shkodėr, Lezhė, Drisht, Durrės and Shėngjin. Should be noted that Venice did not only acquire the towns or ports, but also the villages and castles that surrounded these towns, as is shown in the cadaster that I linked. All of these were held for at least 80 years.

Then there were the main Venetian holdings in southern Albania; Vlorė and Butrint. The town of Vlora fell in and out of Venetian hands on multiple occasions, it was first taken by Venice in 1205 but was quickly lost. It was taken from the Ottomans in 1690 but was then lost to them just a year later. As for Butrint, it wasn't only held for a year. The area was purchased alongside Corfu by the Venetians in 1386, it was then fully seized by the Ottomans in 1799 by Ali Pasha Tepelena.

Dibran
05-04-2020, 09:17 PM
Yeah, I am unsure about the Slavic speaking part either. At the same time, Kastirotis own family showed affinity with the Serbs and some level of duo-influence can be noted among their names. Some level of bilingualism is possible but as you noted, it does seem unlikely and is most probably a result of modern nationalism.

There is this book Origjina e Gollobordasve tė Dibrės (Kalabardhėt), Agim R. Kasa.
https://www.shtepiaelibrit.com/store/en/albanian-history/6765-origjina-e-gollobordasve-te-dibres-kalabardhet-agim-r-kasa-9789928292209.html

Kalabardhet is noted more than once as the likely name of the region and Golloborde as a result of phonetic influences through Slavic. (likely imposed). I will try to find the book by Agim Kasa.

From Alexander Novik, I found this page interesting. (page 25)



The full Diber pejorative circle-jerk. :D




And, Alexander Novik postulates that the common "Balkan" type of housing we see in the Balkans in actually from Diber and it was spread throughout Albania, Balkans and Turkey by masons from Golloborde.

I think he is referring to these types of houses that we find concentrated in the Diber ethnographic area. Very very interesting.

https://i1.wp.com/wander-lush.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Emily-Lush-Berat-Albania-46.jpg?resize=900%2C600&ssl=1

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQ-hbKg8nMF-IZyMjaqGmHE8XKssria37DeKpK1ilPpqEDI9btg&usqp=CAU

Is that price in Lek? All it says is ALL700. Not sure if this is Lek and I would convert to USD or if that's euro and really expensive lol.

Kelmendasi
05-04-2020, 09:33 PM
Is that price in Lek? All it says is ALL700. Not sure if this is Lek and I would convert to USD or if that's euro and really expensive lol.
It should be in Lek since ALL is the abbreviation of Albanian Lek. It should be around $6.

I already have this book and personally would not recommend it. The author goes on tangents that have nothing to do with Golloborda and I don't think there is much information or evidence given in the book. I'd say that Gollobordė (Golo Bordo), Shqipėri by Alexander Novik is probably the best book available on the topic https://www.adrionltd.com/en/ethnology/99889-golloborde-shqiperi.html. I plan on getting this book, though I do not know when it will arrive given the current situation.

vettor
05-04-2020, 10:03 PM
For starters there are the major towns and ports of northern Albania: Shkodėr, Lezhė, Drisht, Durrės and Shėngjin. Should be noted that Venice did not only acquire the towns or ports, but also the villages and castles that surrounded these towns, as is shown in the cadaster that I linked. All of these were held for at least 80 years.

Then there were the main Venetian holdings in southern Albania; Vlorė and Butrint. The town of Vlora fell in and out of Venetian hands on multiple occasions, it was first taken by Venice in 1205 but was quickly lost. It was taken from the Ottomans in 1690 but was then lost to them just a year later. As for Butrint, it wasn't only held for a year. The area was purchased alongside Corfu by the Venetians in 1386, it was then fully seized by the Ottomans in 1799 by Ali Pasha Tepelena.

Durres , the biggest was only from 1205-2103 ..........then the desporate of Epirus successor, Theodore Komnenos Doukas, took the city under Epirote hands.[10]

After the Epirote conquest, the city declined as an centre for trade, as the Venetians moved their commerce to Ragusa instead.[6]( dubrovnic)

The city continued to change hands in the 13th and 14th centuries between the Greeks of Epirus and the restored Palaiologan Byzantine Empire, the Angevins of Naples, and the Serbs. Venice once again took possession of the city in 1392, holding it until it was conquered by the Ottoman Empire in 1501.[1]
It was not part of Albania-Veneta

a summary of montenego and northern albania

from circa 1000AD, Venice only held istria on the eastern adriatic side, .....friuli, croatia and dalmatia, was held by the Hungarian king ...............montenegro by byzantine empire.
-Venice fought an on-off 400 year war against hungaria....finally securing in 1427, Friuli, Croatia and Dalmatia from the Hungarians
-in 1430 , Montenegro was given temporarily to venice to look after ( Venice being a Byzantine ally )
-1435 byzantine fell, and venice kept montenegro...naming it Albania-Veneta
-Others parts of Albania fell to the ottomans, or aligned with Naples or duchy of Epirus ,( except Durres )
-Venice lost its last albanian town of Durres in 1501
- Dalmatia, istria, croatia, corfu , ionion islands never fell to the Ottomans and venice still had them in 1797

Dibran
05-04-2020, 10:13 PM
It should be in Lek since ALL is the abbreviation of Albanian Lek. It should be around $6.

I already have this book and personally would not recommend it. The author goes on tangents that have nothing to do with Golloborda and I don't think there is much information or evidence given in the book. I'd say that Gollobordė (Golo Bordo), Shqipėri by Alexander Novik is probably the best book available on the topic https://www.adrionltd.com/en/ethnology/99889-golloborde-shqiperi.html. I plan on getting this book, though I do not know when it will arrive given the current situation.

Personally I would be skeptical of Slavic writers on Albanian matters. At least Russians and Serbs any way. But if its generally supported in Albanian intellectual field i will order it. Is it in Albanian? That digital version was all Russian Cyrillic.

trdbr1234
05-04-2020, 10:15 PM
Is that price in Lek? All it says is ALL700. Not sure if this is Lek and I would convert to USD or if that's euro and really expensive lol.

I forgot Kelmendasi actually quoted that book and said dont buy it. lol I want to buy it anyways tho.

I usually find the details of what is conveyed in the books more interesting anyways, even when there is lack of transparency/accuracy/propaganda etc.

Tbh, I really liked Filipovic - Golo Brdo. If you can get over the constant propaganda in the book, I think it is the most informative. Probably my favorite.

Second would be Alexander Novik. His quality of research is far higher and more professional. He blatantly stated for example that he could not verify any of the research Bulgarian "anthropologist" have made in the region and blatantly called them liars and unprofessional. Which is true ofcourse. One Bulgarian anthropologist stated that in the region they call the Albanians "arnauts", which is a complete lie. The region has historically identified as "arnaut" and there is no reason to call Albanians that.

trdbr1234
05-04-2020, 10:33 PM
It should be in Lek since ALL is the abbreviation of Albanian Lek. It should be around $6.

I already have this book and personally would not recommend it. The author goes on tangents that have nothing to do with Golloborda and I don't think there is much information or evidence given in the book. I'd say that Gollobordė (Golo Bordo), Shqipėri by Alexander Novik is probably the best book available on the topic https://www.adrionltd.com/en/ethnology/99889-golloborde-shqiperi.html. I plan on getting this book, though I do not know when it will arrive given the current situation.

Because you have been so resourceful , I would like to make another request. :D

Alexander Novic refereed to a practice of endogamy in the region. I wonder if this is the reason autosomal profiles from the region show a western shift compared to Albanian average. When there isnt a western shift, there is a higher distance to the Albanian average, even though Albanians are the closest population. Both indicating a practice of endogamy.


Seems to be a publication. Maybe you can find somewhere?

page 36 Alexander Novik.
According to Aneta Svetieva, the village endogamy was previously practiced in the village of Trebishta [Svetieva 2006: 10].

Kelmendasi
05-04-2020, 10:46 PM
Durres , the biggest was only from 1205-2103 ..........then the desporate of Epirus successor, Theodore Komnenos Doukas, took the city under Epirote hands.[10]

After the Epirote conquest, the city declined as an centre for trade, as the Venetians moved their commerce to Ragusa instead.[6]( dubrovnic)

The city continued to change hands in the 13th and 14th centuries between the Greeks of Epirus and the restored Palaiologan Byzantine Empire, the Angevins of Naples, and the Serbs. Venice once again took possession of the city in 1392, holding it until it was conquered by the Ottoman Empire in 1501.[1]
It was not part of Albania-Veneta

a summary of montenego and northern albania

from circa 1000AD, Venice only held istria on the eastern adriatic side, .....friuli, croatia and dalmatia, was held by the Hungarian king ...............montenegro by byzantine empire.
-Venice fought an on-off 400 year war against hungaria....finally securing in 1427, Friuli, Croatia and Dalmatia from the Hungarians
-in 1430 , Montenegro was given temporarily to venice to look after ( Venice being a Byzantine ally )
-1435 byzantine fell, and venice kept montenegro...naming it Albania-Veneta
-Others parts of Albania fell to the ottomans, or aligned with Naples or duchy of Epirus ,( except Durres )
-Venice lost its last albanian town of Durres in 1501
- Dalmatia, istria, croatia, corfu , ionion islands never fell to the Ottomans and venice still had them in 1797
In 1205 Venice set up the Duchy of Durazzo, with the town of Durrės as its capital, which was a colony and duchy under the Republic of Venice. The duchy was reclaimed by the Byzantine Despotate of Epirus in 1213.

Durrės was taken back by the Republic of Venice in 1392 and remained under Venetian suzerainty till 1501, so Venice held onto Durrės for 109 consecutive years till its conquest by the Ottomans. And in fact it was a part of Venetian Albania or Albania Veneta https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BDywCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=venetian+albania&source=bl&ots=pQh08UCZJ0&sig=ACfU3U25YSvvE_Wt9ggdVAuMGhIK47FIJA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwibhMjoo5vpAhXRQxUIHTzDCs04ChDoATAIegQIC hAB#v=onepage&q=venetian%20albania&f=false.

Dibran
05-04-2020, 10:49 PM
Because you have been so resourceful , I would like to make another request. :D

Alexander Novic refereed to a practice of endogamy in the region. I wonder if this is the reason autosomal profiles from the region show a western shift compared to Albanian average. When there isnt a western shift, there is a higher distance to the Albanian average, even though Albanians are the closest population. Both indicating a practice of endogamy.


Seems to be a publication. Maybe you can find somewhere?

Maybe not all the areas. As far back as we remember we didn't practice endogamy. Or at least not specifically one region. With the exception of my grandfather and his brother alot of the family including my father and uncles took outside wives. One uncle married one from Tropoja, one from Luma in Kukes and my mom's family in Malzi region of Kukes(though my moms family did have affiliation with Puka as well).

Kelmendasi
05-04-2020, 10:49 PM
Personally I would be skeptical of Slavic writers on Albanian matters. At least Russians and Serbs any way. But if its generally supported in Albanian intellectual field i will order it. Is it in Albanian? That digital version was all Russian Cyrillic.
I do not think that Novik and the Russian team involved in compiling the information for the book had nationalistic agendas. Novik himself has done various studies in the Balkans and even elsewhere, those that I have seen do not seem to be suspicious.

Dibran
05-04-2020, 10:51 PM
I do not think that Novik and the Russian team involved in compiling the information for the book had nationalistic agendas. Novik himself has done various studies in the Balkans and even elsewhere, those that I have seen do not seem to be suspicious.

Thank you. Will order it. Since you have the first book you didn't recommend , does it mention families and records or not really?

vettor
05-04-2020, 10:59 PM
In 1205 Venice set up the Duchy of Durazzo, with the town of Durrės as its capital, which was a colony and duchy under the Republic of Venice. The duchy was reclaimed by the Byzantine Despotate of Epirus in 1213.

Durrės was taken back by the Republic of Venice in 1392 and remained under Venetian suzerainty till 1501, so Venice held onto Durrės for 109 consecutive years till its conquest by the Ottomans. And in fact it was a part of Venetian Albania or Albania Veneta https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BDywCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=venetian+albania&source=bl&ots=pQh08UCZJ0&sig=ACfU3U25YSvvE_Wt9ggdVAuMGhIK47FIJA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwibhMjoo5vpAhXRQxUIHTzDCs04ChDoATAIegQIC hAB#v=onepage&q=venetian%20albania&f=false.

thanks I will read it ....promise

but this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bal%C5%A1i%C4%87_noble_family family, is I think what you claim....Edgar Hösch mentions the Thopias and Balšići as native Albanian families that gained political power after 1355.[20] Alexandru Madgearu mentions the Balšić as a noble Albanian family, however he states that their Albanian origin is unclear, due to the debate over the family's origin as either Serbian or Vlach.[21] Wayne E. Lee, Matthew Lubin, Eduard Ndreca, Michael L. Galaty, Mentor Mustafa and Robert Schon mention the families of Balsha (Balšić), along with Dukagjin, Topia and Kastrati, as local Albanian lords which held fragmented power in north of Albania.[22]

Kelmendasi
05-04-2020, 11:06 PM
Because you have been so resourceful , I would like to make another request. :D

Alexander Novic refereed to a practice of endogamy in the region. I wonder if this is the reason autosomal profiles from the region show a western shift compared to Albanian average. When there isnt a western shift, there is a higher distance to the Albanian average, even though Albanians are the closest population. Both indicating a practice of endogamy.


Seems to be a publication. Maybe you can find somewhere?
Based on the publication date I believe the book he is referencing is Golo Brdo: život na granica. There is no online version of this book, however I have found papers that do quote from Svetieva in regards to endogamy in the region. The Status of Women in the Region of Golo Brdo, Republic of Albania quotes Svetieva and states: “group endogamy according to religious and ethnic affiliation that is still deep-rooted, which is one of the main reasons for the sustainability of the groups in the region” http://www.nec.ro/data/pdfs/publications/research-and-symposia/social-behaviour-and-family-strategies/Ines_CRVENKOVSKA-RISTESKA.pdf. Haven't been able to find much more.

Kelmendasi
05-04-2020, 11:08 PM
Thank you. Will order it. Since you have the first book you didn't recommend , does it mention families and records or not really?
I do not remember any references to specific families and their origins. It does mention some records but I believe it does so when quoting the works of others.

Kelmendasi
05-04-2020, 11:13 PM
thanks I will read it ....promise

but this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bal%C5%A1i%C4%87_noble_family family, is I think what you claim....Edgar Hösch mentions the Thopias and Balšići as native Albanian families that gained political power after 1355.[20] Alexandru Madgearu mentions the Balšić as a noble Albanian family, however he states that their Albanian origin is unclear, due to the debate over the family's origin as either Serbian or Vlach.[21] Wayne E. Lee, Matthew Lubin, Eduard Ndreca, Michael L. Galaty, Mentor Mustafa and Robert Schon mention the families of Balsha (Balšić), along with Dukagjin, Topia and Kastrati, as local Albanian lords which held fragmented power in north of Albania.[22]
Not really..

There was direct Venetian control in the more northern towns of Albania, such as Shkodėr and Drisht. These two towns in specific were given to the Republic of Venice in 1396 by Đurađ II Balšić (George Stracimirović) in return for protection from the Ottomans.

Dibran
05-04-2020, 11:14 PM
Based on the publication date I believe the book he is referencing is Golo Brdo: život na granica. There is no online version of this book, however I have found papers that do quote from Svetieva in regards to endogamy in the region. The Status of Women in the Region of Golo Brdo, Republic of Albania quotes Svetieva and states: “group endogamy according to religious and ethnic affiliation that is still deep-rooted, which is one of the main reasons for the sustainability of the groups in the region” http://www.nec.ro/data/pdfs/publications/research-and-symposia/social-behaviour-and-family-strategies/Ines_CRVENKOVSKA-RISTESKA.pdf. Haven't been able to find much more.

Interesting. I can't speak for everyone in the region or even Okshtun, but our Koci at least married outside alot. My grandfather and his brother married locally. Grandfather married Stafa of Okshtun Madhe and his brother a Kurti from Ostren I Madhe. Other relatives married outside as did my father and his brothers. Though the earliest generations claim to have always exchanged wives with Martanesh, the rest of Diber and Malesi. despite taking locally. My grandathers parents were both from Okshtun as were my grandmothers. So my father and siblings are all from Okshtun on all sides for at least a couple generations.

trdbr1234
05-04-2020, 11:16 PM
Maybe not all the areas. As far back as we remember we didn't practice endogamy. Or at least not specifically one region. With the exception of my grandfather and his brother alot of the family including my father and uncles took outside wives. One uncle married one from Tropoja, one from Luma in Kukes and my mom's family in Malzi region of Kukes(though my moms family did have affiliation with Puka as well).

Well, yeah. That is because they left Okshtun and moved into the cities. Ofcourse, my family is married from all over Albania as well. If you dig deeper into where your parents heritage are, you will see that they will be 95% from the region, with few exception of when they marry in Diber Madhe or other parts of Diber. I bet it is the same with Kelmendasis mom side. The region married within the region regardless of linguistic barriers. Marriages with Carmenika, Mati, or other Slavic regions were very uncommon. From a story I was told a while ago, the explanation was, "E kan gjakun e prish". There was a culture of blood preservation. In the eastern side, for sure.

This can also be seen in the city of Diber Madhe. They also marry within Diber. Even the diaspora from there build their communities.

Kelmendasi
05-04-2020, 11:20 PM
Maybe not all the areas. As far back as we remember we didn't practice endogamy. Or at least not specifically one region. With the exception of my grandfather and his brother alot of the family including my father and uncles took outside wives. One uncle married one from Tropoja, one from Luma in Kukes and my mom's family in Malzi region of Kukes(though my moms family did have affiliation with Puka as well).
Exogamous marriages usually occur in villages or areas where most families are related to each other or have oral traditions of being related, this is why for example the Albanian tribes of Malėsi married outside of their tribe (with the exception of some).

In villages such as Trebisht most of the families are unrelated to each other, making endogamy possible. My maternal grandmother for example, comes from the same village as my grandfather.

trdbr1234
05-04-2020, 11:24 PM
Based on the publication date I believe the book he is referencing is Golo Brdo: život na granica. There is no online version of this book, however I have found papers that do quote from Svetieva in regards to endogamy in the region. The Status of Women in the Region of Golo Brdo, Republic of Albania quotes Svetieva and states: “group endogamy according to religious and ethnic affiliation that is still deep-rooted, which is one of the main reasons for the sustainability of the groups in the region” http://www.nec.ro/data/pdfs/publications/research-and-symposia/social-behaviour-and-family-strategies/Ines_CRVENKOVSKA-RISTESKA.pdf. Haven't been able to find much more.

Oh wow, very nice.

Thank you.

Dibran
05-04-2020, 11:28 PM
Well, yeah. That is because they left Okshtun and moved into the cities. Ofcourse, my family is married from all over Albania as well. If you dig deeper into where your parents heritage are, you will see that they will be 95% from the region, with few exception of when they marry in Diber Madhe or other parts of Diber. I bet it is the same with Kelmendasis mom side. The region married within the region regardless of linguistic barriers. Marriages with Carmenika, Mati, or other Slavic regions were very uncommon. From a story I was told a while ago, the explanation was, "E kan gjakun e prish". There was a culture of blood preservation. In the eastern side, for sure.

This can also be seen in the city of Diber Madhe. They also marry within Diber. Even the diaspora from there build their communities.

No. Even before they left it was common with our family. I have had ancestors that took wives from Martanesh, Mat and the rest of Diber. We have taken wives from Mirdita as well. My guess would be around the heterogeneous area of the region. Where Kukes and Diber border to. Some took only locally of course. My grandfather, his brother and their parents. Other Koci in the area weren't always taking locally. One relative married a Turk. Even some who took Torbesh wives.

My immediate Koci married either strictly from Okshtun and surroundings or outside(like Martsnesh)

Dibran
05-04-2020, 11:30 PM
Exogamous marriages usually occur in villages or areas where most families are related to each other or have oral traditions of being related, this is why for example the Albanian tribes of Malėsi married outside of their tribe (with the exception of some).

In villages such as Trebisht most of the families are unrelated to each other, making endogamy possible. My maternal grandmother for example, comes from the same village as my grandfather.

yea. Im sure that is the case. Just speaking based on practices of my immediate Koci family in Okshtun. Endogamy happened but it wasn't strictly adhered to in my family.

We even married wives from Gega and Lika. Yet, we never imagined any relation what so ever by the male line. I mean it is a millenia or more so enough time to fade from memory but still.

trdbr1234
05-04-2020, 11:33 PM
No. Even before they left it was common with out family. I have had ancestors that took wives from Martanesh, Mat and the rest of Diber. We have taken wives from Mirdita as well. My guess would be around the heterogeneous area of the region. Where Kukes and Diber border to. Some took only locally of course. My grandfather, his brother and their parents. Other Koci in the area weren't always taking locally. One relative married a Turk. Even some who took Torbesh wives.

My immediate Koci married either strictly from Okshtun and surroundings our outside(like Martsnesh)

Maybe it wasn't a thing there then

Okshtuni Vogel is on extremity though. It very borders Martanesh. It is understandable.

However, that was not the case in the rest of the region.

Although I do have a great great grandmother from Reka. Its what my father says but he doesn't know specific. I have gathered some clues that she might have been from Galaknik or Rostuce, as it was said to be near the monastery there(Manastiri Bigerit/Bigorski monastary).

Dibran
05-04-2020, 11:54 PM
Maybe it wasn't a thing there then

Okshtuni Vogel is on extremity though. It very borders Martanesh. It is understandable.

However, that was not the case in the rest of the region.

Although I do have a great great grandmother from Reka. Its what my father says but he doesn't know specific. I have gathered some clues that she might have been from Galaknik or Rostuce, as it was said to be near the monastery there(Manastiri Bigerit/Bigorski monastary).

You have a good point. There is a legend in my family that our ancestors actually carved territory from Martanesh including it into Okshtun. Regardless if that is even true or not, Okshtuni Vogel is the western-most region bordering Martanesh. Could be why it was loosely practiced. At least in Vogel. Not sure about Lika and Gega from Madhe. Which Reka is majority Albanian? upper or lower? I know Verbjan is on the Albanian side of Reka if I am not mistaken. One match(albeit distant) was from Verbjan.

trdbr1234
05-04-2020, 11:58 PM
You have a good point. There is a legend in my family that our ancestors actually carved territory from Martanesh including it into Okshtun. Regardless if that is even true or not, Okshtuni Vogel is the western-most region bordering Martanesh. Could be why it was loosely practiced. At least in Vogel. Not sure about Lika and Gega from Madhe. Which Reka is majority Albanian? upper or lower? I know Verbjan is on the Albanian side of Reka if I am not mistaken. One match(albeit distant) was from Verbjan.

Oh wow. That is very interesting. Do you know more about the legend?

Reka Eper is majority Albanian speaking. But they are all related though, similarly to Golloborde.

And they they all belong to Diber as well. They are our blood-brothers.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 12:22 AM
Oh wow. That is very interesting. Do you know more about the legend?

Reka Eper is majority Albanian speaking. But they are all related though, similarly to Golloborde.

And they they all belong to Diber as well. They are our blood-brothers.

I can ask my father when I speak with him, so take what I say with a grain of salt because I may be remembering it incorrectly lol. The legend has something to do with tribal disputes over territory. Supposedly either Okshtuni Vogel itself was once part of Martanesh and was cut off by my family and added to Okshtun becoming Vogel, or the villages closest to Martanesh my family added to the region of Okshtun.

I will ask for details tonight. Also, I found a binder with printed out pages. I am assuming from books. Not sure from what though. Has some Poems for the region of Diber(Bulqize). Mentions a Sule Koēi, and theres a Stafa mentioned too. I can take pictures later and post them here. Has other stuff on Diber as well. I think its mostly 19th/20th century stuff. Mentions 1912/13 alot.

trdbr1234
05-05-2020, 12:30 AM
I can ask my father when I speak with him, so take what I say with a grain of salt because I may be remembering it incorrectly lol. The legend has something to do with tribal disputes over territory. Supposedly either Okshtuni Vogel itself was once part of Martanesh and was cut off by my family and added to Okshtun becoming Vogel, or the villages closest to Martanesh my family added to the region of Okshtun.

I will ask for details tonight. Also, I found a binder with printed out pages. I am assuming from books. Not sure from what though. Has some Poems for the region of Diber(Bulqize). Mentions a Sule Koēi, and theres a Stafa mentioned too. I can take pictures later and post them here. Has other stuff on Diber as well. I think its mostly 19th/20th century stuff. Mentions 1912/13 alot.

Yes, ask man. :D

And yes, bring them.

Qemal Stafa from Zabzun in Golloborde was an important figure of Communist Albania. He was one of the founders of Communist Albania but was betrayed by Enver Hoxha and eventually assassinated as part of a power play by Enver Hoxha. He needlessly remained an important figure and the national football stadium in Communist Albania was dedicated to him. "Qemal Stafa Stadium"

Keqa
05-05-2020, 02:48 AM
Stafa did test too and they are CTS10228, btw.

trdbr1234
05-05-2020, 03:00 AM
Stafa did test too and they are CTS10228, btw.

Nice. Is it tested deeper?

Novik states that the locals refer to Zabzun in Golloborde and Zerqan in Gryka Madhe as Latini. I wonder if he matches any Vlach?

Dibran
05-05-2020, 03:42 AM
Stafa did test too and they are CTS10228, btw.

No. The Stafa of Diber are E-V13. A Stafa on 23andme from Diber tested V13. They are also my family(paternal grandmother line). Not sure where the other Stafa you mention are from. Unless there are 2 Stafa with different Y-DNA in the same area. I am planning on trying to get them to do at least YSEQ for further prediction.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 03:42 AM
Yes, ask man. :D

And yes, bring them.

Qemal Stafa from Zabzun in Golloborde was an important figure of Communist Albania. He was one of the founders of Communist Albania but was betrayed by Enver Hoxha and eventually assassinated as part of a power play by Enver Hoxha. He needlessly remained an important figure and the national football stadium in Communist Albania was dedicated to him. "Qemal Stafa Stadium"

So I spoke with my father. So, around the mid 1800s, supposedly an army of 4000 Ottomans led by a Mahmut Pasha, snuck through Albania from where they were stationed in Manastir, potentially through Oher. Their intent was to destroy Diber, and more specifically Martanesh as revenge due to Ottomans being defeated at the battle of Hajredin Pasha.

At the time Martanesh brotherhoods were led by a Hoxha(potentially named Hamit). My father said at this time Okshtuni Vogel was part of Martanesh as were our Koēi. My great great grandfather Imer Koēi along with his brother Sule and others were led by this Hoxha among the clans. Imer Koēi supplied many fighters and supposedly made a big impact on the outcome of the victory. This Hoxha leader of Martanesh died at the battle. Initially it was being considered that leadership would pass to Imer Koēi.

However, at a meeting with the brotherhoods, they decided to pass leadership to another member of the Hoxha fis. When Imer asked why considering his contribution, they claimed that his family was only in Martanesh for 300 years and so, not a native brotherhood to Martanesh(originally anyway). Apparently they hurled insults insulting his honor, and Imer broke some smoking pipe and just got up and left. One among them said "why did he break the pipe?", while another replied that they would hear the meaning of this gesture soon.

Because of dishonoring him apparently Imer and the rest of the Koēi had bloody conflicts over the territory. Imer then killed the Hoxha leader of the tribes of Martanesh, and separated Okshtuni Vogel from them. We don't know whether Okshtuni Vogel got its name after separation, or if Okshtuni Vogel was actually a toponym of Martanesh, and being under their umbrella, Koēi were affiliated with Martanesh up until the mid to late 1800s. So it appears(from what I can tell), that Koēi were in a border region and came under influence of Martanesh before separating the land from them.

This could explain some of the different customs in our branch of Koēi and lack of strong endogamy. Maybe even explains why we never referred to ourselves as being from Golloborda as this term was not really used wen describing the whole region together. They would usually just say Bulqize.

Here is the song for the battle I am referencing which they took part(which occurred prior to the tribal dispute between Koēi and rest of Martanesh).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIWgd_73y2w&feature=youtu.be

Keqa
05-05-2020, 04:14 AM
From Stebleve?


Stafa that ended up as CTS10228 are from Shetel (Shijak) but with origin from Diber (most likely from Stebleve). Same thing with Koēi from the same village, probably they're close relatives of yours. Based on resolution they have tested they seem like Din north.

"Latini" was used to differentiate catholics from orthodox.

trdbr1234
05-05-2020, 04:15 AM
So I spoke with my father. So, around the mid 1800s, supposedly an army of 4000 Ottomans led by a Mahmut Pasha, snuck through Albania from where they were stationed in Manastir, potentially through Oher. Their intent was to destroy Diber, and more specifically Martanesh as revenge due to Ottomans being defeated at the battle of Hajredin Pasha.

At the time Martanesh brotherhoods were led by a Hoxha(potentially named Hamit). My father said at this time Okshtuni Vogel was part of Martanesh as were our Koēi. My great great grandfather Imer Koēi along with his brother Sule and others were led by this Hoxha among the clans. Imer Koēi supplied many fighters and supposedly made a big impact on the outcome of the victory. This Hoxha leader of Martanesh died at the battle. Initially it was being considered that leadership would pass to Imer Koēi.

However, at a meeting with the brotherhoods, they decided to pass leadership to another member of the Hoxha fis. When Imer asked why considering his contribution, they claimed that his family was only in Martanesh for 300 years and so, not a native brotherhood to Martanesh(originally anyway). Apparently they hurled insults insulting his honor, and Imer broke some smoking pipe and just got up and left. One among them said "why did he break the pipe?", while another replied that they would hear the meaning of this gesture soon.

Because of dishonoring him apparently Imer and the rest of the Koēi had bloody conflicts over the territory. Imer then killed the Hoxha leader of the tribes of Martanesh, and separated Okshtuni Vogel from them. We don't know whether Okshtuni Vogel got its name after separation, or if Okshtuni Vogel was actually a toponym of Martanesh, and being under their umbrella, Koēi were affiliated with Martanesh up until the mid to late 1800s. So it appears(from what I can tell), that Koēi were in a border region and came under influence of Martanesh before separating the land from them.

This could explain some of the different customs in our branch of Koēi and lack of strong endogamy. Maybe even explains why we never referred to ourselves as being from Golloborda as this term was not really used wen describing the whole region together. They would usually just say Bulqize.

Here is the song for the battle I am referencing which they took part(which occurred prior to the tribal dispute between Koēi and rest of Martanesh).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIWgd_73y2w&feature=youtu.be

Very interesting.

In this same defence against the relief forces of Hajredin Pasha, Kater Gryket of Dibra also took part. It must have been a collective response with Martanesh. Does the Koci in Okshtuni Vogel consider Prodan as theirs? They inhabit the same mountain range and same lands essentially. Does Prodan have a similar story?

Dibran
05-05-2020, 04:18 AM
From Stebleve?


Stafa that ended up as CTS10228 are from Shetel (Shijak) but with origin from Diber (most likely from Stebleve). Same thing with Koēi from the same village, probably they're close relative of yours. Based on resolution they have tested they seem like Din north.

"Latini" was used to differentiate catholics from orthodox.

I'm not aware of Koēi relatives in Stebleve. Not recent anyway. Probably very distant.

My Stafa are from Okshtuni Madhe and they tested E-V13.

Isn't Stafa like saying Hoxha pretty much?

They may not all be related. My grandmother told me her ancestor was a Selman Stafa who supposedly killed the Governor of Shkoder.

Not sure if there is a record for Selman or original village settlement. However, the Stafa in our family(albeit a distant relative) comes out V13.

Considering they told me Okshtun though, I imagine it's one and the same.

trdbr1234
05-05-2020, 04:20 AM
From Stebleve?


Stafa that ended up as CTS10228 are from Shetel (Shijak) but with origin from Diber (most likely from Stebleve). Same thing with Koēi from the same village, probably they're close relative of yours. Based on resolution they have tested they seem like Din north.

"Latini" was used to differentiate catholics from orthodox.

There are Stafa, Stefa, Stafi, etc. They are not only located in Stebleve or Zabzun.

How do you know Latini was used for that purpose? There were Catholics in Carmenika, Mati, as well as Lure with whom they had contacts. And they weren't refereed to as Latini. It seems like a Vlach substrate in these villages is possible.

trdbr1234
05-05-2020, 04:21 AM
I'm not aware of Koēi relatives in Stebleve. Not recent anyway. Probably very distant.

My Stafa are from Okshtuni Madhe and they tested E-V13.

Isn't Stafa like saying Hoxha pretty much?

They may not all be related. My grandmother told me her ancestor was a Selman Stafa who supposedly killed the Governor of Shkoder.

Not sure if there is a record for Selman or original village settlement. However, the Stafa in our family(albeit a distant relative) comes out V13.

Considering they told me Okshtun though, I imagine it's one and the same.

You should be a rapper dude. Your family has the most gangster stories in Diber. loll

The one from Okshtun is probably the same as Zabzun and Stebleve.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 04:25 AM
You should be a rapper dude. Your family has the most gangster stories in Diber. loll

The one from Okshtun is probably the same as Zabzun and Stebleve.

Lol maybe you know more stories than me. Then again I don't know many families that had internal blood feuds lmao.

Well that is a problem. You now have a E-V13 Stafa from Okshtun Madhe and a I2-Din Stafa from Stebelve. So they're obviously not related.

Is Stafa a surname like Hoxha? Where they're not all related?

Keqa
05-05-2020, 04:25 AM
I'm not aware of Koēi relatives in Stebleve. Not recent anyway. Probably very distant.

My Stafa are from Okshtuni Madhe and they tested E-V13.

Isn't Stafa like saying Hoxha pretty much?

They may not all be related. My grandmother told me her ancestor was a Selman Stafa who supposedly killed the Governor of Shkoder.

Not sure if there is a record for Selman or original village settlement. However, the Stafa in our family(albeit a distant relative) comes out V13.

Considering they told me Okshtun though, I imagine it's one and the same.
I was referring to Koēi in Shetel (Shijak).

I see, so perhaps there are multiple Stafa families in Gollobord.

I meant to say Stafa from Zabzun, not Stebleve. I don't know if there are any such families in Stebleve.

Keqa
05-05-2020, 04:28 AM
There are Stafa, Stefa, Stafi, etc. They are not only located in Stebleve or Zabzun.

How do you know Latini was used for that purpose? There were Catholics in Carmenika, Mati, as well as Lure with whom they had contacts. And they weren't refereed to as Latini. It seems like a Vlach substrate in these villages is possible.

Slavs used it in border regions, they used in Montenegro and Kosove as well for catholics.

trdbr1234
05-05-2020, 04:32 AM
DIber is very large ethnographic region where surnames are shared among the different regions. You should never assume when they say Diber that they come from a specific place, because the surnames are shared to a high degree.

Plus, Stafa is generic Islamic name. The bearers of the name are not necessarily related.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa

trdbr1234
05-05-2020, 04:34 AM
Slavs used it in border regions, they used in Montenegro and Kosove as well for catholics.

But there were Catholics in the region, and yet it wasn't used for them. ffs

You and your agendas dude. It is getting old.

Keqa
05-05-2020, 04:35 AM
DIber is very large ethnographic region where surnames are shared among the different regions. You should never assume when they say Diber that they come from a specific place, because the surnames are shared to a high degree.

Plus, Stafa is generic Islamic name. The bearers of the name are not necessarily related.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa

Yes, but that diminutive form seems unique to that region. In Kosove for instance Mustafa generally transforms into Musa.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 04:37 AM
Very interesting.

In this same defence against the relief forces of Hajredin Pasha, Kater Gryket of Dibra also took part. It must have been a collective response with Martanesh. Does the Koci in Okshtuni Vogel consider Prodan as theirs? They inhabit the same mountain range and same lands essentially. Does Prodan have a similar story?

My father says the area was a neighbor. He's unaware of we inhabited that spot or if they are part of us.

trdbr1234
05-05-2020, 04:40 AM
Lol maybe you know more stories than me. Then again I don't know many families that had internal blood feuds lmao.

Well that is a problem. You now have a E-V13 Stafa from Okshtun Madhe and a I2-Din Stafa from Stebelve. So they're obviously not related.

Is Stafa a surname like Hoxha? Where they're not all related?

It might be, who knows. But I don't know where Skerdi gets his information from. Hes on a mission to make the region seem as Slavic influenced as possible. It is where all his comments and suggestions revolve around. You have to treat what he says similar to how you would read propaganda from the works from Flipovic or Bulgarian anthropologists.

The Stafa you tested from Okshtun is with 90% confidence the same as Zabzun and Stebleve.

Keqa
05-05-2020, 04:46 AM
But there were Catholics in the region, and yet it wasn't used for them. ffs

You and your agendas dude. It is getting old.

There are no catholics there, at least not in Gollobord. Most of Zabzun perhaps were so it was still remembered by the locals there, hence why they referred to them as such. What agenda? Stafa that I mentioned belong to a typical Slavic lineage so nothing to suggest that they were Vlahs.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 04:50 AM
I was referring to Koēi in Shetel (Shijak).

I see, so perhaps there are multiple Stafa families in Gollobord.

I meant to say Stafa from Zabzun, not Stebleve. I don't know if there are any such families in Stebleve.

Ahh ok. Interesting, cause I know they settled in Zabzun as well. Hmm. Going to speak to my Stafa family from Okshtun and ask them to test other than 23andme. Hopefully they agree and I will just buy their test.

Are you saying Koēi from Shetel(Shijak) came out CTS10228 as well?

Or only that they lived in the village in question?

I know the surname is common so I imagine all Koēi are not related. At least the ones outside of Diber. I'm actually sponsoring 1 or maybe 2 Ostren Koēi. Hopefully if they don't back out we can see if they are our same Koēi which I suspect is the case.

Apparently the Koxhaxhik story is just a legend so Koxhaxhik origin isn't certain.

The only legit records mention Luzni Koēi in 1467. Christian brothers Mihail, Progon and Lal. Apparently they left Luzni.

The other is a document from 1650 where a Koēi who was one of the local lords of Diber was ordered together with the lorde of the rest of Diber and Mat to punish the revolts from NW Diber(Lure,etc) for pillaging the lowland villages.

Says he delivered the letter through Elbasan so likely a relative of our Koēi. Other than this document and the dexter from 1467 the Per Koēi dealing with Martanesh and Koxhaxhik story remain legends.

Though the Per Koēi one is possible as our Koēi were affiliated with Martanesh up until the mid 1800s so its possible this Per was one of ours.

trdbr1234
05-05-2020, 04:56 AM
There are no catholics there, at least not in Gollobord. Most of Zabzun perhaps were so it was still remembered by the locals there, hence why they referred to them as such. What agenda? Stafa that I mentioned belong to a typical Slavic lineage so nothing to suggest that they were Vlahs.

lol. I mean, I absolutely knew where you were trying to get at but I wanted you to come out yourself. Kind of leaving crumbs for you like a good dog to come out of. :lol: :lol: CTS10228 is NOT a Slavic lineage, you persistently stubborn man. Albanians that carry CTS10228 are not Slavic nor do they carry a Slavic lineage. Learn basics first.

How has this guy been allowed a say in Albanian DNA projects? Association with this guy is embarrassing.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 04:56 AM
There are no catholics there, at least not in Gollobord. Most of Zabzun perhaps were so it was still remembered by the locals there, hence why they referred to them as such. What agenda? Stafa that I mentioned belong to a typical Slavic lineage so nothing to suggest that they were Vlahs.

I think he means assuming they are from Diber cause of the surname. The sample in question is not actually from Diber.

Considering Stafa that are already in Diber still to this day are E-V13, then, assuming all Stafa in Diber are "the same", one would expect they would more likely be E-V13 despite this Durres sample.

Also, after asking Gjergj, the Stafa from Durres has no knowledge of ancestry from Diber let alone outside the area. Not sure where you got that. Also the sample is part of the new project.

Keqa
05-05-2020, 05:00 AM
Ahh ok. Interesting, cause I know they settled in Zabzun as well. Hmm. Going to speak to my Stafa family from Okshtun and ask them to test other than 23andme. Hopefully they agree and I will just buy their test.

Are you saying Koēi from Shetel(Shijak) came out CTS10228 as well?

Or only that they lived in the village in question?

I know the surname is common so I imagine all Koēi are not related. At least the ones outside of Diber. I'm actually sponsoring 1 or maybe 2 Ostren Koēi. Hopefully if they don't back out we can see if they are our same Koēi which I suspect is the case.

Apparently the Koxhaxhik story is just a legend so Koxhaxhik origin isn't certain.

The only legit records mention Luzni Koēi in 1467. Christian brothers Mihail, Proton and Lal. Apparently they left Luzni.

The other is a document from 1650 where a Koēi who was one of the local lords of Diber was ordered together with the lorde of the rest of Diber and Mat to punish the revolts from NW Diber(Lure,etc) for pillaging the lowland villages.

Says he delivered the letter through Elbasan so likely a relative of our Koēi. Other than this document and the dexter from 1467 the Per Koēi dealing with Martanesh and Koxhaxhik story remain legends.

Though the Per Koēi one is possible as our Koēi were affiliated with Martanesh up until the mid 1800s so its possible this Per was one of ours.
In Shetel, Shijak, there are few families that trace their origin to Diber, including Stafa and Koēi. Only Stafa have tested.


Nga ana dialektale fshati u quajt, nga banorėt e pashkollėsisė, dhe Shetel. Nga injoranca emri i fshatit merr dhe trajtėn e shatit (vegėl pune). Fiset qė kanė ardhur kėtu janė: fisi Biba, fisi Marku, Stafa, Koēi, Hysa, Dervishi, Lila, etj. Tė gjithė kėto fise kanė jetuar nė kėtė fshat me njė sipėrfaqe prej 18 km2. Pothuajse tė gjithė fiset kanė ardhur nga zonat e Dibrės. Fisi Marku ka katėr pėrbėrje: Begia, Labi, Shaba dhe Marku. Thuhet qė fisi Labi nėkėtė pėrbėrje vjen nga Labėria. Fshati ku kanė ardhur kėto ishte i mbuluar me qarre, shqopė, vrrin, mret, etj. Qarrin dhe shqopėn e gjejmė nėpėr gryka qė marrin emėrtimet e tyre.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 05:02 AM
lol. I mean, I absolutely knew where you were trying to get at but I wanted you to come out yourself. Kind of leaving crumbs for you like a good dog to come out of. :lol: :lol: CTS10228 is NOT a Slavic lineage, you persistently stubborn man. Albanians that carry CTS10228 are not Slavic nor do they carry a Slavic lineage. Learn basics first.

How has this guy been allowed a say in Albanian DNA projects? Association with this guy is embarrassing.

While Albanians that carry CTS10228 are not Slavs, it appears most of it with exception of one branch(I-Y18331*) came with Slavic tribes.

Originally Y3120 may not have been Slavic, however the survivor of the lineage seems to mostly have expanded demographically with Slavs.

In fact, despite not being originally Slavic, most of Y3120 seems to be dominated by Slavs even more than some R1a branches which appear spread out.

Most Albanians belong to even younger twigs under Y3120 than older ones.

We do have Albanians in the rate branch shared with Greeks and East European Jews. Most instances however are typically Slavic.

This doesn't mean the tester is Slavic. Only the earliest ancestor. And without a full resolution test can't really say when.

Keqa
05-05-2020, 05:05 AM
Also, after asking Gjergj, the Stafa from Durres has no knowledge of ancestry from Diber let alone outside the area.

They do trace their origin to Diber, see the article I referenced above. Gjergj isn't trustworthy, he hides information intentionally.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 05:09 AM
In Shetel, Shijak, there are few families that trace their origin to Diber, including Stafa and Koēi. Only Stafa have tested.

I guess it depends. The Stafa in question from Durres claims no descent from Diber and says his family has no memory of coming outside Durres. Maybe they lost the memory. Regardless I think an actual Stafa from Okshtun, Diber is far more reliable when assuming the lineage of those Stafa in Diber instead of drawing connections to a sample that has no memory of Dibra.

Interestingly Lila and Biba are families we are inter-related through marriage.

trdbr1234
05-05-2020, 05:13 AM
While Albanians that carry CTS10228 are not Slavs, it appears most of it with exception of one branch(I-Y18331*) came with Slavic tribes.

Originally Y3120 may not have been Slavic, however the survivor of the lineage seems to mostly have expanded demographically with Slavs.

In fact, despite not being originally Slavic, most of Y3120 seems to be dominated by Slavs even more than some R1a branches which appear spread out.

Most Albanians belong to even younger twigs under Y3120 than older ones.

We do have Albanians in the rate branch shared with Greeks and East European Jews. Most instances however are typically Slavic.

This doesn't mean the tester is Slavic. Only the earliest ancestor. And without a full resolution test can't really say when.

No-one is denying that and I agree with what you said. At the same time nothing is set in stone. Making generalizations and adding nationalities to haplos is ridiculous.

He means what he says, literally though. And does not say it figuratively or for simplistic reasons. It goes along the lines of haplo-nationalism, which is silly.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 05:14 AM
They do trace their origin to Diber, see the article I referenced above. Gjergj isn't trustworthy, he hides information intentionally.

You're not understanding. What you posted(without a source btw) is not the words of the tester himself.

The Stafa from Durres has no knowledge of coming from outside the area.

So are we supposed to assume the tester in question knows less about his family and that the account is referring to his Stafa?

Why try to ignore that we have actually Stafa in Diber in Bulqize that are E-V13 and grasp at straws to place the CTS10228 Durres Stafa with no oral history coming from Diber in the exact place V13 Stafa are located?

That makes no sense.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 05:20 AM
No-one is denying that and I agree with what you said. At the same time nothing is set in stone. Making generalizations and adding nationalities to haplos is ridiculous.

He means what he says, literally though. And does not say it figuratively or for simplistic reasons. It goes along the lines of haplo-nationalism, which is silly.

Of course there are unknowns. However if your lean things on a scale, most diversity and branches are Slavic. Almost entirely. Perhaps they moved with other neighboring Germanic and Hunnic groups. Their origin is definitely not the Balkans though. That's fine though.

Some branches have probably developed Albanian haplotypes but most of them will have arrived in the early medieval.

trdbr1234
05-05-2020, 05:22 AM
In Shetel, Shijak, there are few families that trace their origin to Diber, including Stafa and Koēi. Only Stafa have tested.


Nga ana dialektale fshati u quajt, nga banorėt e pashkollėsisė, dhe Shetel. Nga injoranca emri i fshatit merr dhe trajtėn e shatit (vegėl pune). Fiset qė kanė ardhur kėtu janė: fisi Biba, fisi Marku, Stafa, Koēi, Hysa, Dervishi, Lila, etj. Tė gjithė kėto fise kanė jetuar nė kėtė fshat me njė sipėrfaqe prej 18 km2. Pothuajse tė gjithė fiset kanė ardhur nga zonat e Dibrės. Fisi Marku ka katėr pėrbėrje: Begia, Labi, Shaba dhe Marku. Thuhet qė fisi Labi nėkėtė pėrbėrje vjen nga Labėria. Fshati ku kanė ardhur kėto ishte i mbuluar me qarre, shqopė, vrrin, mret, etj. Qarrin dhe shqopėn e gjejmė nėpėr gryka qė marrin emėrtimet e tyre.

Marku is found in Klenje. Lila, Hysa, Stafa in Borove, Fushe-Studen, Zabzun. Biba from Okshtun possibly(not sure about this). Although the bulk of the fis likely come from the region, it does seem that they have other lineages mixed in. It is difficult to say what occurred there.

I find it odd that an Okshtun Stafa is tested different to a Stafa from Durres. But you never know though.

Stafa is found in Ostren and Trebisht in addition to Zabzun. Although I am unsure as Stefa is sometimes used.

Keqa
05-05-2020, 05:23 AM
You're not understanding. What you posted(without a source btw) is not the words of the tester himself.

The Stafa from Durres has no knowledge of coming from outside the area.

So are we supposed to assume the tester in question knows less about his family and that the account is referring to his Stafa?

Why try to ignore that we have actually Stafa in Diber in Bulqize that are E-V13 and grasp at straws to place the CTS10228 Durres Stafa with no oral history coming from Diber in the exact place V13 Stafa are located?

That makes no sense.

The Stafa he tested is from Shijak, bro. Source? Do some research.


I already said there could be multiple Stafa families there. The ones he tested are most likely with further origin from Zabzun.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 05:33 AM
The Stafa he tested is from Shijak, bro. Source? Do some research.


I already said there could be multiple Stafa families there. The ones he tested are most likely with further origin from Zabzun.


Well the burden of proof is on you. You claimed this Durres Stafa originally coming from Diber as an established fact. Then you post a segment without citing where it came from.

Then, after clarifying with Gjergj this tester has no knowledge of coming from Diber you claim he's manipulating evidence?

What evidence? Did you communicate with the tester? Did the words come out his mouth that he came from Diber?

Or do you expect your assumption based on a passage from some book or article has to mean this Stafa is that very same one?

You only said they can be from different families after I brought up the fact that the tester has no personal knowledge of coming from Diber.

I also told you about my E-V13 23andme Stafa relative from Diber way back when. Unless you forgot about it.

Regardless I'm going to test my direct Stafa relative in Okshtun. Hopefully once the shutdown is over. So if the closer relative of mine is E-V13 pretty much confirms what I said.

If they are CTS10228 then we can say with some certainly they are the same. That is of course assuming they match each other.

Time will tell. I just hope they're receptive to test further.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 05:35 AM
Marku is found in Klenje. Lila, Hysa, Stafa in Borove, Fushe-Studen, Zabzun. Biba from Okshtun possibly(not sure about this). Although the bulk of the fis likely come from the region, it does seem that they have other lineages mixed in. It is difficult to say what occurred there.

I find it odd that an Okshtun Stafa is tested different to a Stafa from Durres. But you never know though.

Stafa is found in Ostren and Trebisht in addition to Zabzun. Although I am unsure as Stefa is sometimes used.

Biba is from Okshtun I Madhe yes. Lila and Biba we are intermarried with. Maybe the others too. Just know of the first 2 off top of my head.

trdbr1234
05-05-2020, 05:41 AM
Biba is from Okshtun I Madhe yes. Lila and Biba we are intermarried with. Maybe the others too. Just know of the first 2 off top of my head.

Marku I'm related to.

There are other families mixed in within the overarching fis. Like the Labi within the Marku fis. So, the Marku fis from Durres for example are not related along their paternal line, necessarily.

Article is a bit vague so I am unsure of what happened there. Seems they created their own fis. loll


Which reminds me that we need to test a Koci in Ostren. There is a crazy amount of Koci's out there. Maybe at one time it was a form of status to claim Koci origin. Otherwise it would have needed to be someone with influence and power. I don't see how otherwise Koci would be so widespread in Albania.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 06:04 AM
Marku I'm related to.

There are other families mixed in within the overarching fis. Like the Labi within the Marku fis. So, the Marku fis from Durres for example are not related along their paternal line, necessarily.

Article is a bit vague so I am unsure of what happened there. Seems they created their own fis. loll


Which reminds me that we need to test a Koci in Ostren. There is a crazy amount of Koci's out there. Maybe at one time it was a form of status to claim Koci origin. Otherwise it would have needed to be someone with influence and power. I don't see how otherwise Koci would be so widespread in Albania.

You didn't see my messages to you on fb? :) we got 1 if not 2 Ostren Koci likely to test. One claims they were always in Diber as far as they know. The other that they entered from Burrel. Never heard of Koci having to do with Burrel but people from there migrated to Diber so who can say.

Assuming they don't back out, at least 1 will God willing test. That would leave a Tucep Koci left to connect the dots.

Interestingly when I asked about our Koci being related with there's, one mentioned their grandmother said if we are related, the split was very long ago and slipped from memory.

One also said they are not sure of relation to Tucep Koci. So, if they really are one and the same Koci fis in Bulqize, Then the common ancestors go back further than each group cares to remember.

Surprisingly outside of Diber, the spelling variant is mostly found in Central and Southern Albania. They aren't all related.

I had a Koci who was from Tirana. Said family was from the South originally. He was R1b-M269. While I think there's a strong change Koci throughout Diber are one and the same(however distant), I don't think this is necessarily the case for all Koci outside Diber.

So already there's at least Tosk Koci and Dibran Koci that are in Tirana with different origin.

Same with surnames like Shpata or Marku. They can be used by unrelated groups.

Kelmendasi
05-05-2020, 12:38 PM
I'm not aware of Koēi relatives in Stebleve. Not recent anyway. Probably very distant.

My Stafa are from Okshtuni Madhe and they tested E-V13.

Isn't Stafa like saying Hoxha pretty much?

They may not all be related. My grandmother told me her ancestor was a Selman Stafa who supposedly killed the Governor of Shkoder.

Not sure if there is a record for Selman or original village settlement. However, the Stafa in our family(albeit a distant relative) comes out V13.

Considering they told me Okshtun though, I imagine it's one and the same.
I found the story of Selman Stafa online. To sum it up, he was staying in Shkodėr with a friend from Ternova, Osman Gjoka, as they had work in the town. The two where confronted by the Vali (Wāli) of Shkodra, Haxhi Mela, as they wouldn't make way for him when he was on his morning walk, the Vali insults Selman by calling him a "goge Dibre". Selman takes offence to this and confronts the Vali the next day, this escalates with both Osman and Selman attacking the Vali and killing him. http://www.rrugaearberit.com/arkiva/2016/korrik2016.pdf.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 01:39 PM
I found the story of Selman Stafa online. To sum it up, he was staying in Shkodėr with a friend from Ternova, Osman Gjoka, as they had work in the town. The two where confronted by the Vali (Wāli) of Shkodra, Haxhi Mela, as they wouldn't make way for him when he was on his morning walk, the Vali insults Selman by calling him a "goge Dibre". Selman takes offence to this and confronts the Vali the next day, this escalates with both Osman and Selman attacking the Vali and killing him. http://www.rrugaearberit.com/arkiva/2016/korrik2016.pdf.

Nice find man. Until now I just heard the story from my grandmother before she past. Didn't know this was also documented/mentioned elsewhere.

Keqa
05-05-2020, 02:37 PM
Well the burden of proof is on you. You claimed this Durres Stafa originally coming from Diber as an established fact. Then you post a segment without citing where it came from.
Then, after clarifying with Gjergj this tester has no knowledge of coming from Diber you claim he's manipulating evidence?

What evidence? Did you communicate with the tester? Did the words come out his mouth that he came from Diber?
Or do you expect your assumption based on a passage from some book or article has to mean this Stafa is that very same one?

I showed you enough evidence that they are from Gollobord. You can refute it if it suits you, couldn’t care less.


You forget that I was one of the fellas that brought Gjergj into this? I know very well how he does things. That he manipulates data I know for a fact (changes peoples last names, place of origin, where they are from etc once they get their results) because I caught him in multiple occasions. When I confronted him about one of the cases he flat out lied to me.

Anyway, lets not deviate more than we have from the topic.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 04:49 PM
I showed you enough evidence that they are from Gollobord. You can refute it if it suits you, couldn’t care less.


You forget that I was one of the fellas that brought Gjergj into this? I know very well how he does things. That he manipulates data I know for a fact (changes peoples last names, place of origin, where they are from etc once they get their results) because I caught him in multiple occasions. When I confronted him about one of the cases he flat out lied to me.

Anyway, lets not deviate more than we have from the topic.

Your gripes with Gjergj are your own. That is neither here nor there.

You also didn't answer the question. Did the tester actually communicate with you directly and tell you themselves they are from Diber?

Or, are you merely making that assumption based on the passage you cited, and the fact there is a Stafa there that is CTS10228?

Its really that simple. Which is it?

Either way I'm planning on testing our direct family from Stafa in Okshtun. We should eventually know if they match the other E-V13 Stafa from Diber or the CTS10228 from Durres.

Keqa
05-05-2020, 05:02 PM
Your gripes with Gjergj are your own. That is neither here nor there.

You also didn't answer the question. Did the tester actually communicate with you directly and tell you themselves they are from Diber?

Or, are you merely making that assumption based on the passage you cited, and the fact there is a Stafa there that is CTS10228?

Its really that simple. Which is it?

Either way I'm planning on testing our direct family from Stafa in Okshtun. We should eventually know if they match the other E-V13 Stafa from Diber or the CTS10228 from Durres.

First of all, I am not complaining about anything, dude. Get that in your head. Second, how many Stafa’s can there be in Shijak? The only ones I have come across are the Stafa from Shetel which trace their origin to Diber (Gollo). You see, there is no need for me to talk to them directly. People claim all sort of crazy and exotic things now days. Prime example is your buddy here who thinks he is Pelasgian but at the same time speaks a Slavic dialect at home and belongs to a typical Slavic ydna.

One thing is for sure, identity was pretty fluid in the Balkans.


Through him? Data that I can’t trust is useless to me. Find a relative of yours or better yet go there and test them yourself.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 05:26 PM
First of all, I am not complaining about anything, dude. Get that in your head. Second, how many Stafa’s can there be in Shijak? The only ones I have come across are the Stafa from Shetel which trace their origin to Diber (Gollo). You see, there is not need for me to talk to them directly. People claim all sort of crazy and exotic things now days. Prime example is your buddy here who thinks he is Pelasgian but at the same time speaks a Slavic dialect at home and belongs to a typical Slavic ydna.

One thing is for sure, identity was pretty fluid in the Balkans.


Through him? Data that I can’t trust are useless to me. Find a relative of yours or better yet go there and test them yourself.

I just love how you dodge simple yes no questions or keep your answers as vague as possible.

So in other words you didn't actually speak to them and are merely making a educated guess based on a passage from a book or article. Good to know thanks.

Keqa
05-05-2020, 06:08 PM
I know for a fact that he targeted them because of their origin from Gollobord :biggrin1:


And not just them ;)

Dibran
05-05-2020, 06:37 PM
I know for a fact that he targeted them because of their origin from Gollobord :biggrin1:


And not just them ;)

Mhmm. Like I said. I'm all for I2a being the case once the second Stafa confirms it through YSEQ.

Otherwise we have an actual Stafa from Diber(not Durres) that's actually E-V13. Let that sink in. One is from Diber the other isn't(even though its suspected)

Maybe there are different Stafa. Let's wait and see before acting like its all a closed and shut case shall we?

digital_noise
05-05-2020, 08:44 PM
Hey all,
I hope this is a suitable subject fr this thread. If not, please let me know and I will attempt to have it moved.

My paternal side is from Calabria. The Italian Wikipedia has a bit more info regarding the town we hail from. Translated, it says:

The birth of the municipality of Ciminą can be traced back to 1453, by Greek and Albanian fugitives of Christian religion who, driven out of Constantinople by the Turks , found shelter at the "Monte dei Tre Pizzi".

Anyone have any insight into this? Was there a bunch of Greeks and Albanians in Constantinople? Historically, was there some sort of uprising in 1453 ( i know the Fall of Constantinople was in the 1450's, maybe this was it?) that would cause an exodus, or just typical army movements?

I'm not familiar with the history of the time/area so forgive me if I am missing something obvious. The town is not historically an Arbereshe town, so thats off the table.

Keqa
05-05-2020, 09:46 PM
Brother, regardless what the Stafa of Okshtun will end up as, Stafa from Shetel are still from there. Perhaps not from Okshtun but from Zabzun as we already pointed out since we know there is such a family there. I am not sure why is this so hard for you to understand?

No bitterness in my part at all. Both of you came out of the woodwork for no reason, trying to discredit what I stated.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 09:55 PM
Brother, regardless what the Stafa of Okshtun will end up as, Stafa from Shetel are still from there. Perhaps not from Okshtun but from Zabzun as we already pointed out since we know there is such a family there. I am not sure why is this so hard for you to understand?

No bitterness in my part at all. Both of you came out of the woodwork for no reason, trying to discredit what I stated.

The problem is you're assuming they're from there based on a source you read about migration to the area. While I agree people can lose memory of origin, this Durres Stafa never actually said he or his family was from Diber.
Whether they may or may not be.

They could be different sure. However, its clear the only actual Stafa we have who still lives in Diber is themselves E-V13. Using only what we currently know, if Stafa should be the same in Diber, our cousin is likely to be E-V13.

Which is why I'm planning on testing one more Stafa there to rectify the situation. Zabzun is not that far. And our Stafa settled there too. That's why I'm curious now.

Keqa
05-05-2020, 10:12 PM
Ok, resolved then. Stafa from Shijak (not from Durres!) can not be from Gollo, according to you because they are CTS10228. Got it

Dibran
05-05-2020, 10:33 PM
Ok, resolved then. Stafa from Shijak (not from Durres!) can not be from Gollo, according to you because they are CTS10228. Got it

No. But you like to twist things so what else can I expect from you, brother?

Enough with the red herrings already. Fol fol se te ben mire

I CLEARLY stated that sample has no knowledge of coming from Diber and we already have a E-V13 from Diber with the surname Stafa, so if they are one fis, other Stafa are likely to be the same and this case is coincidental.

I then go on to CLEARLY say that if they are CTS10228 that matches the Shijak samples it would indeed confirm they're related and more than one Stafa bloodline occupies Diber. Shijak is part of Durres County so I wasn't wrong. The same as Okshtun is part of Bulqize but not Bulqize proper.

But you're just diverting so I'm not going to repeat myself.

Dibran
05-05-2020, 11:08 PM
I can argue the case I am making as I think I've read enough on Kosova to have a good idea of the situation there. It is not something I wish to prove, however.

Why are you feeding this guy. Why is it significant if Stafa is CTS10228 or not? Maybe there are two Stafa. Maybe it is not the same Stafa. It is irrelevant.

This toxic individual single highhandedly made the former Y-DNA project obsolete and a fringe group, by making the statements that he is making.

He used to literally tell Albanian whom were I2a(didnt even care what branch), and tell them they are not Albanians but Slavs. lol He has serious mental issues and I would not share anything with him. It seems that most Albanians don't want to either, since their project is dying.

Personally I disagree. You're free to your view but from my knowledge and even experience, my Kosovar friends have been more brotherly than people I meet from Albania. More often than not someone in Albania has a stigma of their neighbors.

My Kosovar friend and their family treated me like I was their own kin. For me and my experience Kosovars have been better friends than others from Albania. Truth is, every forest has its wolves. No Albanian is perfect. Its how we distinguish ourselves from the rest. Let those with personal squabbles be forgotten by history while those of us of one mind and spirit come together. If not we are doomed to repeat more of the same as our ancestors.

trdbr1234
05-05-2020, 11:16 PM
Personally I disagree. You're free to your view but from my knowledge and even experience, my Kosovar friends have been more brotherly than people I meet from Albania. More often than not someone in Albania has a stigma of their neighbors.

My Kosovar friend and their family treated me like I was their own kin. For me and my experience Kosovars have been better friends than others from Albania. Truth is, every forest has its wolves. No Albanian is perfect. Its how we distinguish ourselves from the rest. Let those with personal squabbles be forgotten by history while those of us of one mind and spirit come together. If not we are doomed to repeat more of the same as our ancestors.

I don't disagree. But identities have been fluid. That is simply the truth and the reality. I do not think there is a point arguing against that. It is important to focus on the today and the tomorrow. Today, they are Albanians. Is there any difference between Kosovars and Albanians? Probably not! Even if there is, it is probably very marginal. Conclusion, it is irrelevant what they were 500-800-1000 years ago.

Sorcelow
05-06-2020, 03:12 AM
By any chance, do any of you know whether there have been historical relations of any kind between the Muslim Slavic speakers of Labunishta and the inhabitants of Golloborda?

These villagers also seem to identify as Albanian despite their Slavic mother tongue.

Kelmendasi
05-06-2020, 01:25 PM
By any chance, do any of you know whether there have been historical relations of any kind between the Muslim Slavic speakers of Labunishta and the inhabitants of Golloborda?

These villagers also seem to identify as Albanian despite their Slavic mother tongue.
Yes, many of the families from Labuništa (Llabunisht) are in fact originally from Gollobordė or other regions of Albania. Many of these families are believed to have moved between the 18th and 19th centuries primarily from the villages of Klenjė and Steblevė. However, some do claim origin from outside of Golloborda, for example there are families descending from a certain Yusuf who apparently came from a village of Albania located near the Erzen River.

As for the matter of mother language, this probably depends from family to family. Should also be noted that some villages of Golloborda are exclusively Albanian-speaking and have been so for as far as they can remember.

trdbr1234
05-07-2020, 04:45 PM
Hmmm, intereting...

My reply to the Kosovar was deleted and his offensive remarks remain.

I am unsure why my reply was deleted because I don't think it broke any rules and it was relevant to this thread.

Exercitus
05-07-2020, 07:28 PM
Well, personally i have a great esteem toward the Albanians of Kosovo (Kosovar), they have proven and kept their Albanianness, during the XX century, much more than their brothers in Albania!!

I have also a personal reason for such attitude toward those northeastern Albanians: my great grand father (from my mother's side) was from Peja, Rrafsh i Dukagjinit\Metohija... As a young man he took part at the The battle in the Kaēanik gorge (Beteja nė grykėn e Kaēanikut) at 30 april 1910, against the Ottoman rule !!

He (my great grand father) had the privilege to fight side by side with a Great Patriot as Idriz Seferi;

Exercitus
05-07-2020, 07:30 PM
37501


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idriz_Seferi

Johane Derite
05-07-2020, 07:30 PM
Well, personally i have a great esteem toward the Albanians of Kosovo (Kosovar), they have proven and kept their Albanianness, during the XX century, much more than their brothers in Albania!!

I have also a personal reason for such attitude toward those northeastern Albanians: my great grand father (from my mother's side) was from Peja, Rrafsh i Dukagjinit\Metohija... As a young man he took part at the The battle in the Kaēanik gorge (Beteja nė grykėn e Kaēanikut) at 30 april 1910, against the Ottoman rule !!

He (my great grand father) had the privilege to fight side by side with a Great Patriot as Idriz Seferi;

Don't respond to him, he is doing nothing but starting fights and will eventually get important threads shut down.

Hawk
05-08-2020, 09:36 AM
Visualizing the TMRCA of E-V13 from incomplete y-full data (not verified) i saw a very interesting picture.

https://i.imgur.com/IdjKJ2P.png

Hawk
05-08-2020, 10:11 AM
Aromanian/Vlach Y-DNA distribution for reference.

Notice, R1b and I2a are the most prominent, as well as J2 in par with E-V13 who rises in percentage the more deeper in Balkans you go.

https://i.imgur.com/RVCc1gd.png

Hawk
05-08-2020, 10:27 AM
A glance of genetic relations in the Balkan
populations utilizing network analysis based on
in silico assigned Y-DNA haplogroups

1
International Burch University, Department of Genetics and Bioengineering, Sarajevo, Bosnia
and Herzegovina 2
Institute for Anthropological Research, Zagreb, Croatia 3
Institute of Forensic Medicine, Forensic Molecular Biology Dpt., University of Bern,
Sulgenauweg 40, 3007 Bern, Switzerland

Anthropological Review • Vol. 81(3), 252–268 (2018)

https://i.imgur.com/ZVmCRHb.png

Dibran
05-08-2020, 11:44 AM
Visualizing the TMRCA of E-V13 from incomplete y-full data (not verified) i saw a very interesting picture.

https://i.imgur.com/IdjKJ2P.png

Why is Kosova white out? Kosova has more E-V13 than any region.

Hawk
05-08-2020, 12:07 PM
Why is Kosova white out? Kosova has more E-V13 than any region.

It's not about percentages, it's about coloring the map based on TMRCA old subclades. That is the context. Regarding Kosova, there is none in Y-FULL, so the map is obviously incomplete.

Dibran
05-08-2020, 12:14 PM
It's not about percentages, it's about coloring the map based on TMRCA old subclades. That is the context. Regarding Kosova, there is none in Y-FULL, so the map is obviously incomplete.

Does yfull not allow you to select Kosova?

If so, these services are more bias than I thought. LivingDNA left out Kosova. Lost all respect for them.

Hawk
05-08-2020, 12:17 PM
This is a coloring of a map for E-V13 percentage frequency for Vlachs from Romania, Macedonia and Albania. Maximum is 20.9% for Vlachs from Krushevo (North Macedonia) and surprisingly Vlachs from Romania are like 7.1% E-V13.

https://i.imgur.com/IpBv14i.png

Kelmendasi
05-08-2020, 01:34 PM
A glance of genetic relations in the Balkan
populations utilizing network analysis based on
in silico assigned Y-DNA haplogroups

1
International Burch University, Department of Genetics and Bioengineering, Sarajevo, Bosnia
and Herzegovina 2
Institute for Anthropological Research, Zagreb, Croatia 3
Institute of Forensic Medicine, Forensic Molecular Biology Dpt., University of Bern,
Sulgenauweg 40, 3007 Bern, Switzerland

Anthropological Review • Vol. 81(3), 252–268 (2018)

https://i.imgur.com/ZVmCRHb.png
Some of the results from this study were pretty weird and inaccurate to be honest.. For example, Y-DNA haplogroup H reaches frequencies of ~11.7% among the Albanians of Albania according to this study. Apparently J1 reaches a percentage of ~10.1% among Greeks, whilst J2a is only ~6.5%.

Kelmendasi
05-08-2020, 01:36 PM
Does yfull not allow you to select Kosova?

If so, these services are more bias than I thought. LivingDNA left out Kosova. Lost all respect for them.
Yfull includes Kosovo as a part of Serbia.

Many of the Albanian samples that have not put down their region/county on Yfull are in fact Kosovar Albanians.

Dibran
05-08-2020, 01:37 PM
Yfull includes Kosovo as a part of Serbia.

Many of the Albanian samples that have not put down their region/county on Yfull are in fact Kosovar Albanians.

What do you expect from a site run by Russians. What happened to transparency and putting their butthurt aside?

Kosova is an independent sovereign nation and they should recognize it as such.

Hawk
05-08-2020, 01:50 PM
Some of the results from this study were pretty weird and inaccurate to be honest.. For example, Y-DNA haplogroup H reaches frequencies of ~11.7% among the Albanians of Albania according to this study. Apparently J1 reaches a percentage of ~10.1% among Greeks, whilst J2a is only ~6.5%.

It makes sense, Macedonia E-V13 was like 37%. Didn't expect that lol.

But, from what i see Vlach origin of E-V13 is a bullshit made up story. Their main Y-DNA is R1b, I2a2 and J2a along with E-V13. They are rather heterogenous.

Kelmendasi
05-08-2020, 02:00 PM
It makes sense, Macedonia E-V13 was like 37%. Didn't expect that lol.

But, from what i see Vlach origin of E-V13 is a bullshit made up story. Their main Y-DNA is R1b, I2a2 and J2a along with E-V13. They are rather heterogenous.
I believe that "Vlach" in this context is used as an umbrella term for the Latin-speaking populace of the Balkans, regardless if they were Dalmatian-speakers from the western Balkans or Eastern Romance-speakers from the central and eastern Balkans.

Should be noted that the Eastern Romance-speaking groups of today, so the Aromanians, Romanians etc, who are referred to as "Vlachs", actually diverged from the same ancestor (Proto-Romanian) sometime during the Migration Period or a little earlier. So in essence they split from the same ancestral population. It's also very likely that they assimilated or picked up different groups along the way.

Bruzmi
05-09-2020, 08:37 AM
Vlach in the medieval context in the Balkans was also used to refer to pastoral semi-nomadic communities in general. The Albanian tribe of Burmazi as well as the Greek Sarakatsani tribes of Bulgaria were called "Vlachs" because they were semi-nomadic pastoralists. Interestingly, sources stop referring to Burmazi as "Vlachs" when they elevate in status and form their own villages and become traders. Of course, that doesn't mean that no Vlachs existed. But we have to distinguish who are Vlachs in a cultural context and who in an occupational one. Also, we should bear in mind that Vlachs of southern Balkans are very much related to Albanians. I would go as far as saying that the former represent a latinized Illyrian population and the latter a non-latinized Illyrian population. That would explain why there are medieval tribes that have the same name but one is Albanian and the other Vlach. I think that the most interesting such example are the Mazreku tribes in the 14th century. There's a northern Mazreku, there's a southern Mazreku and there's a Vlach Mazreku. I'm not saying that these are the same tribe, but that the use of an Albanian tribal anthroponym by a Vlach tribe points to a place in time were Vlach culture still maintained traces of its non-Latin past.

I found a copy of Values of the Albanian Highlanders Prior to 1920 (https://books.google.com/books?redir_esc=y&id=21NBAAAAYAAJ) by Mehmet Ali Beqiraj. This was published in 1961 by Cornell University. As far as I know, this is the first anthropological account of the Albanian tribal system written by an Albanian and published by an academic institution. He wrote a follow-up in 1963 "From Village to Nation: A Study of Albanian Society" and a third in 1966 "Peasantry in Revolution", both of which I haven't yet found. I don't know if there's a copyright still attached to it, but I'll formally contact Cornell Uni. and ask if I can OCR scan and upload it. I don't want to upload it in some obscure website. Works like that of Beqiraj are the cultural heritage of us all and it's sad that very few people know of this excellent scholar.

Now because Beqiraj's work is the first work written by a native Albanian it doesn't follow any of the Orientalist and sensationalist paths of various travel-writers who visited the Albanian tribes. He is a rigorous scholar and tries to inform the reader about the tribal system as a whole, not just about some tribes that were better known in the western world. He is probably the first (and possibly the only?) scholar who has written about the tribal system of Malėsia of Kolonja (Kolonja Highlands) and the first who has written so extensively about Labėria:

The region around it is called Labėria. Labėria residents as well as those from the Highland of Kolonja were famed in the past for their fighting qualities. The villages were autonomous administrations which dealt effectively With the enemy well as with internal aspiring strong-men. Vigorous village assemblies and village Councils enacted successfully the norms of the Common Law. The North-Albanian Alps and Mirdita clan system in the North and the Labėria-Kolonja village administrations based on the extended family were regarded potentially as the strongest fighting factors of the country.

Kelmendasi
05-09-2020, 05:06 PM
Vlach in the medieval context in the Balkans was also used to refer to pastoral semi-nomadic communities in general. The Albanian tribe of Burmazi as well as the Greek Sarakatsani tribes of Bulgaria were called "Vlachs" because they were semi-nomadic pastoralists. Interestingly, sources stop referring to Burmazi as "Vlachs" when they elevate in status and form their own villages and become traders. Of course, that doesn't mean that no Vlachs existed. But we have to distinguish who are Vlachs in a cultural context and who in an occupational one. Also, we should bear in mind that Vlachs of southern Balkans are very much related to Albanians. I would go as far as saying that the former represent a latinized Illyrian population and the latter a non-latinized Illyrian population. That would explain why there are medieval tribes that have the same name but one is Albanian and the other Vlach. I think that the most interesting such example are the Mazreku tribes in the 14th century. There's a northern Mazreku, there's a southern Mazreku and there's a Vlach Mazreku. I'm not saying that these are the same tribe, but that the use of an Albanian tribal anthroponym by a Vlach tribe points to a place in time were Vlach culture still maintained traces of its non-Latin past.

I found a copy of Values of the Albanian Highlanders Prior to 1920 (https://books.google.com/books?redir_esc=y&id=21NBAAAAYAAJ) by Mehmet Ali Beqiraj. This was published in 1961 by Cornell University. As far as I know, this is the first anthropological account of the Albanian tribal system written by an Albanian and published by an academic institution. He wrote a follow-up in 1963 "From Village to Nation: A Study of Albanian Society" and a third in 1966 "Peasantry in Revolution", both of which I haven't yet found. I don't know if there's a copyright still attached to it, but I'll formally contact Cornell Uni. and ask if I can OCR scan and upload it. I don't want to upload it in some obscure website. Works like that of Beqiraj are the cultural heritage of us all and it's sad that very few people know of this excellent scholar.

Now because Beqiraj's work is the first work written by a native Albanian it doesn't follow any of the Orientalist and sensationalist paths of various travel-writers who visited the Albanian tribes. He is a rigorous scholar and tries to inform the reader about the tribal system as a whole, not just about some tribes that were better known in the western world. He is probably the first (and possibly the only?) scholar who has written about the tribal system of Malėsia of Kolonja (Kolonja Highlands) and the first who has written so extensively about Labėria:

The region around it is called Labėria. Labėria residents as well as those from the Highland of Kolonja were famed in the past for their fighting qualities. The villages were autonomous administrations which dealt effectively With the enemy well as with internal aspiring strong-men. Vigorous village assemblies and village Councils enacted successfully the norms of the Common Law. The North-Albanian Alps and Mirdita clan system in the North and the Labėria-Kolonja village administrations based on the extended family were regarded potentially as the strongest fighting factors of the country.
Interesting that you mention how certain Vlach communities adopted Albanian tribal anthroponyms or shared common names with them. In the defter of the Sanjak of Dibra of 1467 there are multiple mentions of the last name Malakasi or Mallakasa in a number of villages (e.g. Shėmill, Prapungjini etc). The name is rather similar to that of the Malakasioi tribe who are believed to have migrated to Greece from Albania alongside other Albanian and Vlach tribes, many scholars claim that the tribe itself was Vlach. So this tribe shares a common name with certain individuals recorded in the defter on Dibra, whom mainly have typical Albanian anthroponyms (e.g. Gjin, Gjergj etc). Though it should be noted that a village called Malakas is recorded in the defter, so those from Dibėr could have derived their name from this village/toponym. Could also be the other way around.

Dibran
05-09-2020, 05:53 PM
Borove is on my list for the next batch. Covering a good amount of kits for Diber, Bulqize County. Going to try to consistently sponsor 2 kits monthly after this next batch. Have in mind for Macedonia, Northern Diber and Southern Kosova after Bulqize is fleshed out.

trdbr1234
05-09-2020, 09:42 PM
Vlach in the medieval context in the Balkans was also used to refer to pastoral semi-nomadic communities in general. The Albanian tribe of Burmazi as well as the Greek Sarakatsani tribes of Bulgaria were called "Vlachs" because they were semi-nomadic pastoralists. Interestingly, sources stop referring to Burmazi as "Vlachs" when they elevate in status and form their own villages and become traders. Of course, that doesn't mean that no Vlachs existed. But we have to distinguish who are Vlachs in a cultural context and who in an occupational one. Also, we should bear in mind that Vlachs of southern Balkans are very much related to Albanians. I would go as far as saying that the former represent a latinized Illyrian population and the latter a non-latinized Illyrian population. That would explain why there are medieval tribes that have the same name but one is Albanian and the other Vlach. I think that the most interesting such example are the Mazreku tribes in the 14th century. There's a northern Mazreku, there's a southern Mazreku and there's a Vlach Mazreku. I'm not saying that these are the same tribe, but that the use of an Albanian tribal anthroponym by a Vlach tribe points to a place in time were Vlach culture still maintained traces of its non-Latin past.

I found a copy of Values of the Albanian Highlanders Prior to 1920 (https://books.google.com/books?redir_esc=y&id=21NBAAAAYAAJ) by Mehmet Ali Beqiraj. This was published in 1961 by Cornell University. As far as I know, this is the first anthropological account of the Albanian tribal system written by an Albanian and published by an academic institution. He wrote a follow-up in 1963 "From Village to Nation: A Study of Albanian Society" and a third in 1966 "Peasantry in Revolution", both of which I haven't yet found. I don't know if there's a copyright still attached to it, but I'll formally contact Cornell Uni. and ask if I can OCR scan and upload it. I don't want to upload it in some obscure website. Works like that of Beqiraj are the cultural heritage of us all and it's sad that very few people know of this excellent scholar.

Now because Beqiraj's work is the first work written by a native Albanian it doesn't follow any of the Orientalist and sensationalist paths of various travel-writers who visited the Albanian tribes. He is a rigorous scholar and tries to inform the reader about the tribal system as a whole, not just about some tribes that were better known in the western world. He is probably the first (and possibly the only?) scholar who has written about the tribal system of Malėsia of Kolonja (Kolonja Highlands) and the first who has written so extensively about Labėria:

The region around it is called Labėria. Labėria residents as well as those from the Highland of Kolonja were famed in the past for their fighting qualities. The villages were autonomous administrations which dealt effectively With the enemy well as with internal aspiring strong-men. Vigorous village assemblies and village Councils enacted successfully the norms of the Common Law. The North-Albanian Alps and Mirdita clan system in the North and the Labėria-Kolonja village administrations based on the extended family were regarded potentially as the strongest fighting factors of the country.

I would be really interested in reading the book. If it can be made available to read online, please let us know.

What other materials do you recommend from Laberia - Kolonja?

Lek
05-13-2020, 09:32 PM
From a French Historian, Alain Ducellier.

''Admittedly, we witnessed a phenomenon of slavization, of which toponymy is the best witness, but we know that toponymy is an argument of little value in determining the ethnicity of a population: consider the very large number of Slavic place names that can be found in Albania itself, where no one would think to maintain that the population was never mainly Slavic [/ b]. Moreover, such an argument would hardly serve the proponents of the "Serbian thesis" since the majority of the Slavic toponyms of Kosovo as of Albania seem to be rather Bulgarian than Serbian, which is very natural since the Bulgarians occupied the region from the 9th century and especially at the end of the 10th, at the height of the last Bulgarian empire whose capital was Ohrid. At that time, the Serbs were still far from Kosovo: indeed, in the 9th-10th centuries, their first coherent formations are Rascie, in the valley of Ibar, in the west of Morava, and Zéta, which corresponds roughly to current Montenegro; It was not until Prince Stjepan gained royal title in 1217 that the Serbian state expanded and included the region of Peja (Peć) [at the time Ipek], most of Kosovo remaining yet still outside its limits. Let us therefore not insist: any argumentation of the "historical" type can only turn against the "Serbian" thesis since history teaches us that the Serbs are, with respect to Kosovo, very late invaders. ''

Dibran
05-16-2020, 12:07 AM
...............


..........[/I]


.......


......

I finally got the book on Golloborde by Aleksander A. Novik. Just breezing through and while my understanding via translation isn't perfect, he seems level headed enough. At least acknowledging the propaganda of Macedonians, Bulgarians and Serbs in the region being to some extent exaggerated. However, he does confirm that some parts of Golloborde are mixed communes, though not to the extent Bulgarian/Macedonian/Serbian academics would claim. He has sections dedicated to Albonophone, Slavophone, and dual-linguistic regions. He also said he used the local legends of all the communities of Golloborde instead of outside writers among Bulgarians and Macedonians. Though he does mention as well that there is contradiction between some groups as to their oral legends which could at least indicate its heterogeneous nature. Despite Okshtuni Madhe being counted as dual-linguistic in some publications where as Okshtuni Vogel is counted as strictly Albonophone, here he indicates the entirety of Okshtun was strictly Albonophone, including Borova, and Terbac among others.

I will type up the Albanian and include a translation of some sections I looked over later tonight.

Dibran
05-16-2020, 01:16 AM
.....

So theres some plus and minuses. The book doesnt go in detail for each fshat of Golloborde. Only some Fshat and families within them are mentioned. While other fshats talk about the region but not so much family names.

He does mention Mali btw as coming from Gurit te Bardhe and also stresses that Borova was mostly Catholic before becoming Muslim. At least according to Sadikaj. The Koēi fis of Trebisht and the region named after them is mentioned as well. Considering our distance to some Okshtun Koēi branches are 300 years or so, I imagine the split with Trebisht Koēi(wherever it occurred) was around 450-500+ years.

The other downside is the local songs of the regions dual linguistic populations are either left in cyrillic or untranslated to Albanian. Which is problematic.

Kelmendasi
05-16-2020, 01:23 AM
So theres some plus and minuses. The book doesnt go in detail for each fshat of Golloborde. Only some Fshat and families within them are mentioned. While other fshats talk about the region but not so much family names.

He does mention Mali btw as coming from Gurit te Bardhe and also stresses that Borova was mostly Catholic before becoming Muslim. At least according to Sadikaj. The Koēi fis of Trebisht and the region named after them is mentioned as well. Considering our distance to some Okshtun Koēi branches are 300 years or so, I imagine the split of Trebisht Koēi(wherever it occurred) was around 450-500+ years.

The other downside is the local songs of the regions dual linguistic populations are either left in cyrillic or untranslated to Albanian. Which is problematic.
Yeah, there is also a section of the book that covers the local Geg Albanian dialect of Borova and some of the other Albanian-speaking villages in the region. Could you please post a picture of this section or type it up? I have translated most of it from the Russian version, however it would be a lot clearer if I could read it in Albanian.

Dibran
05-16-2020, 01:42 AM
Yeah, there is also a section of the book that covers the local Geg Albanian dialect of Borova and some of the other Albanian-speaking villages in the region. Could you please post a picture of this section or type it up? I have translated most of it from the Russian version, however it would be a lot clearer if I could read it in Albanian.

Sure. I will send you some screen shots tomorrow morning, including general table of contents, in case a specific section of the book has your interest. Theres also the personal passage/questionaire? of a Mehmet Mali. I think you mentioned it once before but I will include this as well. This Mehmet Mali from 1933 when asked if he or the people refer to themselves as part of Golloborde, he says this is a term used by those in the region who speak Macedonian, and that those who identify as Albanian in the region do not use this designation.

Some claim the label used to be for the whole area but was destroyed from Communist era propaganda. However, if he really said that going back to 1933, then perhaps that is not true, and the idea of two separate designations for both groups in the same region was natural and not a product of communist propaganda.

However, one could propose the alternate idea(maybe baseless). Perhaps since some of Borova(including Mali) were from Catholic origin in Mat, this designation of characterization separate from Golloborde could be due to a later arrival of these Catholic clans. Whereas the Christian Orthodox Dibrans may have used the term as well, or at least loosely. Like we say Kosova today. Even though it is a Serbian term, we still use it instead of Dardania. Could be a similar phenomenon in the case of Golloborde.

Though I must admit. Not me or even my father and uncles ever used the term Golloborde. And much as Mali's response in 33, my uncle mentioned the same. Whilst my father was only a baby when they went to Shkup, my uncle had already spent a good part of his young teens in Okshtun and surroundings and they never used the term as a self designation regardless of the geographical association of both the Albanian speaking and dual-linguistic areas.

Kelmendasi
05-16-2020, 09:47 AM
Sure. I will send you some screen shots tomorrow morning, including general table of contents, in case a specific section of the book has your interest. Theres also the personal passage/questionaire? of a Mehmet Mali. I think you mentioned it once before but I will include this as well. This Mehmet Mali from 1933 when asked if he or the people refer to themselves as part of Golloborde, he says this is a term used by those in the region who speak Macedonian, and that those who identify as Albanian in the region do not use this designation.

Some claim the label used to be for the whole area but was destroyed from Communist era propaganda. However, if he really said that going back to 1933, then perhaps that is not true, and the idea of two separate designations for both groups in the same region was natural and not a product of communist propaganda.

However, one could propose the alternate idea(maybe baseless). Perhaps since some of Borova(including Mali) were from Catholic origin in Mat, this designation of characterization separate from Golloborde could be due to a later arrival of these Catholic clans. Whereas the Christian Orthodox Dibrans may have used the term as well, or at least loosely. Like we say Kosova today. Even though it is a Serbian term, we still use it instead of Dardania. Could be a similar phenomenon in the case of Golloborde.

Though I must admit. Not me or even my father and uncles ever used the term Golloborde. And much as Mali's response in 33, my uncle mentioned the same. Whilst my father was only a baby when they went to Shkup, my uncle had already spent a good part of his young teens in Okshtun and surroundings and they never used the term as a self designation regardless of the geographical association of both the Albanian speaking and dual-linguistic areas.
My maternal family too does not identify as being a part of Gollobordė, in their minds this region only includes the villages that speak Bulgaro-Macedonian. I do remember reading a paper on the region that stated that in the western Albanian-speaking villages, people did not identify with the region.

It could be due to the arrival of families from the outside, though we should bear in mind that those families that have oral tradition of arriving from outside the region have actually been settled for a number of generations, with some not even remembering where they originally came from. My maternal grandfather for example would always imply that the family was native to Borovė and that they had no memory of coming from elsewhere, but now it turns out that certain branches of the family and the previous generations actually had memory of arriving from Guri i Bardhė in Mat.

Dibran
05-16-2020, 02:42 PM
My maternal family too does not identify as being a part of Gollobordė, in their minds this region only includes the villages that speak Bulgaro-Macedonian. I do remember reading a paper on the region that stated that in the western Albanian-speaking villages, people did not identify with the region.

It could be due to the arrival of families from the outside, though we should bear in mind that those families that have oral tradition of arriving from outside the region have actually been settled for a number of generations, with some not even remembering where they originally came from. My maternal grandfather for example would always imply that the family was native to Borovė and that they had no memory of coming from elsewhere, but now it turns out that certain branches of the family and the previous generations actually had memory of arriving from Guri i Bardhė in Mat.

True. Thats a very good point. May not be entirely because settlement of Catholic clans. Was just trying to consider the potentiality of of this perhaps being more common amongst Orthodox Albanians of the area as opposed to Catholics and Muslim Albanians.

Yes Okshtun speaks the Central Gheg dialects, including Diber Madhe and some other areas in Macedonia. Northernmost areas bordering Kosova are I think Northern Gheg dialect.

The book has a picture of Mali taken in 2010 as an old man lol. I can send it yo you if you don't already have family photos of him. Had very deep blue eyes.

Kelmendasi
05-16-2020, 02:50 PM
True. Thats a very good point. May not be entirely because settlement of Catholic clans. Was just trying to consider the potentiality of of this perhaps being more common amongst Orthodox Albanians of the area as opposed to Catholics and Muslim Albanians.

Yes Okshtun speaks the Central Gheg dialects, including Diber Madhe and some other areas in Macedonia. Northernmost areas bordering Kosova are I think Northern Gheg dialect.

The book has a picture of Mali taken in 2010 as an old man lol. I can send it yo you if you don't already have family photos of him. Had very deep blue eyes.
I found it interesting that the dialect of Borovė apparently has characteristics that make it overall closer to Southern Geg, though some features from Central Geg are also noted. Personally I think more linguistic data is needed though to be sure.

Could you please send it to me? I would appreciate it a lot.

Dibran
05-16-2020, 02:58 PM
I found it interesting that the dialect of Borovė apparently has characteristics that make it overall closer to Southern Geg, though some features from Central Geg are also noted. Personally I think more linguistic data is needed though to be sure.

Could you please send it to me? I would appreciate it a lot.

Absolutely. Just sent. Let me know if you haven't received it. He looks uber Gheg to me. Passes better in the highlands from his looks.

Kelmendasi
05-16-2020, 03:20 PM
Absolutely. Just sent. Let me know if you haven't received it. He looks uber Gheg to me. Passes better in the highlands from his looks.
Thanks man! Much appreciated. Yeah, he does give off the Albanian highlander vibe lol. My mother remembers a certain Mehmet Mali, according to her he was very tall and was a distant relative of ours. Could be the same guy.

Edit: Turns out he is the same guy.

Dibran
05-16-2020, 04:05 PM
Thanks man! Much appreciated. Yeah, he does give off the Albanian highlander vibe lol. My mother remembers a certain Mehmet Mali, according to her he was very tall and was a distant relative of ours. Could be the same guy.

Edit: Turns out he is the same guy.

Thats awesome. Definitely a nice find. Yea he definitely looks tall. My grandfathers brother was tall as well. Alot of Diber until the recent generations were not as tall as other areas though. Tended towards average height. Made up for it in fighting spirit lol.

trdbr1234
05-17-2020, 03:19 PM
Sure. I will send you some screen shots tomorrow morning, including general table of contents, in case a specific section of the book has your interest. Theres also the personal passage/questionaire? of a Mehmet Mali. I think you mentioned it once before but I will include this as well. This Mehmet Mali from 1933 when asked if he or the people refer to themselves as part of Golloborde, he says this is a term used by those in the region who speak Macedonian, and that those who identify as Albanian in the region do not use this designation.

Some claim the label used to be for the whole area but was destroyed from Communist era propaganda. However, if he really said that going back to 1933, then perhaps that is not true, and the idea of two separate designations for both groups in the same region was natural and not a product of communist propaganda.

However, one could propose the alternate idea(maybe baseless). Perhaps since some of Borova(including Mali) were from Catholic origin in Mat, this designation of characterization separate from Golloborde could be due to a later arrival of these Catholic clans. Whereas the Christian Orthodox Dibrans may have used the term as well, or at least loosely. Like we say Kosova today. Even though it is a Serbian term, we still use it instead of Dardania. Could be a similar phenomenon in the case of Golloborde.

Though I must admit. Not me or even my father and uncles ever used the term Golloborde. And much as Mali's response in 33, my uncle mentioned the same. Whilst my father was only a baby when they went to Shkup, my uncle had already spent a good part of his young teens in Okshtun and surroundings and they never used the term as a self designation regardless of the geographical association of both the Albanian speaking and dual-linguistic areas.

I believe 1933 was his birthdate? Because he mentioned 2010 as the date of the interview. Although things get lost in translation. I am not aware of any field studies from 1933.

Well, there is a great deal of negative propaganda from the Albanian state directed at the krahine of Golloborde. If you read Albanian history, you would never know Golloborde existed because it has been cleaned from every text. Which is very odd because there are a few periods of Albanian history where Golloborde has been the central focus and should have deserved mention.

For one, Ottoman resistance with Gjergj Kastrioti. Modric fortress as well as the entire region were a central piece and front line defense of the Albanian principality.

Second, continued resistance to Ottoman rule as part of "Malet e Dibres" culminating with the battle of Gjorica. You would think that it would be an important note to state that the battle occurred in Golloborde, for example. Even Kristo Frasheri - Historia Dibres disappointed me in this regard. It is a modern book and it has so much contradiction with regards to Gjorica.

Thirdly, Serbian resistance of early 20'th century. The border of Luma - Dibra was in continuous open warfare with Serbia for more than a decade. Special attention was made to include Trebisht and Stebleve within the Albanian borders because of the nature of resistance there.

Fourthly, Gollobordans were instrumental in the building of the Albanian state, where practically every noteworthy standing object in Albania was build and designed by Gollobordans. You would think it deserves mention especially when every other ethnographer explains what prolific builders people from the region were. Not just in Albania but the Balkans as a whole.



To understand what has occurred in Golloborde, I think we must first understand these 4 points.

With this in mind, Alexander Novik also stated two other brief interviews he made. One was with an individual from the bilingual villages whom stated, "He is a pure Bulgarian" and another in Terbac(North Golloborde) whom also showed similar inconsistencies. In Terbac they stated they are from Golloborde and sometimes also stated they are Macedonians. His entire work in the book went counter to Bulgarian anthropologists who made wide claims about people "loving and wanting to be Bulgarians". His point was that you can't look at individual responses of people and made radical conclusions because peoples perceptions are forged by modern media and modern influences that are not necessarily based in fact.

In saying this, the extremities of the region have lost the identification with Golloborde. The extremities are Okshtun Vogel/Prodan/Ternove/Gjorice. As far as I am aware, Borove, Zabzun, and Fushe Studen identify as being from Golloborde. There should not be a confliction of identity there. If there are certain families that do have such confliction there, I imagine it is an entirely new phenomenon of the 21'st century.

Kelmendasi
05-17-2020, 03:35 PM
I believe 1933 was his birthdate? Because he mentioned 2010 as the date of the interview. Although things get lost in translation. I am not aware of any field studies from 1933.

Well, there is a great deal of negative propaganda from the Albanian state directed at the krahine of Golloborde. If you read Albanian history, you would never know Golloborde existed because it has been cleaned from every text. Which is very odd because there are a few periods of Albanian history where Golloborde has been the central focus and should have deserved mention.

For one, Ottoman resistance with Gjergj Kastrioti. Modric fortress as well as the entire region were a central piece and front line defense of the Albanian principality.

Second, continued resistance to Ottoman rule as part of "Malet e Dibres" culminating with the battle of Gjorica. You would think that it would be an important note to state that the battle occurred in Golloborde, for example. Even Kristo Frasheri - Historia Dibres disappointed me in this regard. It is a modern book and it has so much contradiction with regards to Gjorica.

Thirdly, Serbian resistance of early 20'th century. The border of Luma - Dibra was in continuous open warfare with Serbia for more than a decade. Special attention was made to include Trebisht and Stebleve within the Albanian borders because of the nature of resistance there.

Fourthly, Gollobordans were instrumental in the building of the Albanian state, where practically every noteworthy standing object in Albania was build and designed by Gollobordans. You would think it deserves mention especially when every other ethnographer explains what prolific builders people from the region were. Not just in Albania but the Balkans as a whole.



To understand what has occurred in Golloborde, I think we must first understand these 4 points.

With this in mind, Alexander Novik also stated two other brief interviews he made. One was with an individual from the bilingual villages whom stated, "He is a pure Bulgarian" and another in Terbac(North Golloborde) whom also showed similar inconsistencies. In Terbac they stated they are from Golloborde and sometimes also stated they are Macedonians. His entire work in the book went counter to Bulgarian anthropologists who made wide claims about people "loving and wanting to be Bulgarians". His point was that you can't look at individual responses of people and made radical conclusions because peoples perceptions are forged by modern media and modern influences that are not necessarily based in fact.

In saying this, the extremities of the region have lost the identification with Golloborde. The extremities are Okshtun Vogel/Prodan/Ternove/Gjorice. As far as I am aware, Borove, Zabzun, and Fushe Studen identify as being from Golloborde. There should not be a confliction of identity there. If there are certain families that do have such confliction there, I imagine it is an entirely new phenomenon of the 21'st century.
Yeah, the interview took place either in 2010 though he was born in 1933.

As for if Borovė, Zabzun and Fushė Studėn identify as being a part of Golloborda, from what I have gathered they do not. I also remember reading in a study that in the western villages of the region (including the three that have been mentioned), the inhabitants no longer identify as being a part of the region.

trdbr1234
05-17-2020, 03:53 PM
Yeah, the interview took place either in 2010 though he was born in 1933.

As for if Borovė, Zabzun and Fushė Studėn identify as being a part of Golloborda, from what I have gathered they do not. I also remember reading in a study that in the western villages of the region (including the three that have been mentioned), the inhabitants no longer identify as being a part of the region.

Do you minds sharing the article? These social nuances interest me.

Kelmendasi
05-17-2020, 04:00 PM
Do you minds sharing the article? These social nuances interest me.
This is the paper http://www.spisanie.ongal.net/broi8/4%20Toncheva.pdf, though it is in Bulgarian I believe.

trdbr1234
05-17-2020, 04:10 PM
This is the paper http://www.spisanie.ongal.net/broi8/4%20Toncheva.pdf, though it is in Bulgarian I believe.

Veselka Toncheva is the Bulgarian anthropologist that Alexander Novik stated, he could not verify her work. I would not use her work as a baseline for anything, as it is highly dubious, in my opinion. Nor would I use her work to make any conclusions. Although it is interesting nevertheless.

Kelmendasi
05-17-2020, 04:19 PM
Veselka Toncheva is the Bulgarian anthropologist that Alexander Novik stated, he could not verify her work. I would not use her work as a baseline for anything, as it is highly dubious, in my opinion. Nor would I use her work to make any conclusions. Although it is interesting nevertheless.
It's stated that Russian researcher Alexander Rusakov is the one who came to the conclusion that the inhabitants of Borovė do not identify as being a part of Gollobordė as they are exclusively Albanian-speaking.

When I have asked my relatives who are from the village, they too do not identify as being from Golloborda.

trdbr1234
05-17-2020, 04:32 PM
It's stated that Russian researcher Alexander Rusakov is the one who came to the conclusion that the inhabitants of Borovė do not identify as being a part of Gollobordė as they are exclusively Albanian-speaking.

When I have asked my relatives who are from the village, they too do not identify as being from Golloborda.

I don't remember him stating that explicitly. I will have to read it again. He stated the interview he made in the village that people had conflicting answers, especially when asked "what krahine they belonged to". He did also state that the borders of the ethnographic region of Golloborde differ from person-to-person and it is an ever changing dynamic moved by modern perceptions. However, other ethnographers have stated that Golloborde seems to be applied more exclusively to the bilingual villages, and this dynamic seems to be changing peoples perceptions of where they belong. It would be a 21'st century phenomenon.

Kelmendasi
05-17-2020, 04:41 PM
I don't remember him stating that explicitly. He stated the interview he made in the village that people had conflicting answers, especially when asked "what krahine they belonged to". He did also state that the borders of the ethnographic region of Golloborde differ from person-to-person and it is an ever changing dynamic moved by modern perceptions. However, other ethnographers have stated that Golloborde seems to be applied more exclusively to the bilingual villages, and this dynamic seems to be changing peoples perceptions of where they belong. It would be a 21'st century phenomenon.
Toncheva references Rusakov in her paper saying that he provides concrete examples of people from Borova denying affiliation with Golloborda due to linguistic reasons. Also states that the villages in the west and southwest occupy a peripheral position in the region ("Русаков дава конкретен пример за това, че нерядко местните хора от Борово (Борова) отричат принадлежността на селото си към Голо Бърдо поради албаноезичието. Важно заключение, до което достига авторът, е свързано с наблюдението, че албанофонните села заемат на територията на Голо Бърдо крайно, периферно положение. При това особено концентрирано маркират западната и югозападната част на областта").

As for what the person being interviewed says in regards to belonging to the region, this is what he says:

https://i.postimg.cc/639YtLPh/20200515-224913.jpg

trdbr1234
05-17-2020, 04:48 PM
Toncheva references Rusakov in her paper saying that he provides concrete examples of people from Borova denying affiliation with Golloborda due to linguistic reasons. Also states that the villages in the west and southwest occupy a peripheral position in the region ("Русаков дава конкретен пример за това, че нерядко местните хора от Борово (Борова) отричат принадлежността на селото си към Голо Бърдо поради албаноезичието. Важно заключение, до което достига авторът, е свързано с наблюдението, че албанофонните села заемат на територията на Голо Бърдо крайно, периферно положение. При това особено концентрирано маркират западната и югозападната част на областта").

As for what the person being interviewed says in regards to belonging to the region, this is what he says:

https://i.postimg.cc/639YtLPh/20200515-224913.jpg

Seems that he is referencing the Bulgarian anthropologist Vaselka Toncheva. And Toncheva seems to be referencing another anthropologist Rusakov.

edit: A nuance I noticed, he married his wife from Sebisht, which is a bilingual village. I would be curious to know if they asked him what Sebisht is.

Kelmendasi
05-17-2020, 04:51 PM
Seems that he is referencing the Bulgarian anthropologist Vaselka Toncheva. And Toncheva seems to be referencing another anthropologist Rusakov.

It is not a statement he made.
I have emailed Dibran asking him to send me some pictures of the pages from the book that are referenced in order to see what Rusakov actually states. Will post them once I receive them.

Bruzmi
05-21-2020, 11:38 PM
Two papers authored by Renata Jankova-Ajankovska et al:

1)Mitochondrial DNA control region analysis of three ethnic groups in the Republic of Macedonia (https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/82682821.pdf) (2014)

Abstract: A total of 444 individuals representing three ethnic groups (Albanians, Turks and Romanies) in the Republic of Macedonia were sequenced in the mitochondrial control region. The mtDNA haplogroup composition differed between the three groups. Our results showed relatively high frequencies of haplogroup H12 in Albanians (8.8%) and less in Turks (3.3%), while haplogroups M5a1 and H7a1a were dominant in Romanies (13.7% and 10.3%, respectively) but rare in the former two. This highlights the importance of regional sampling for forensic mtDNA databasing purposes. These population data will be available on EMPOP under accession numbers EMP00644 (Albanians), EMP00645 (Romanies) and EMP00646 (Turks).

2)Y-chromosome diversity of the three major ethno-linguistic groups in the Republic of North Macedonia (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497319301097) (2019)


Abstract: A total of 314 individuals representing the three major ethno-linguistic groups (ethnic Macedonians, Albanians and Turks) in the Republic of North Macedonia were analyzed for Y-SNPs and Y-STRs using minisequencing and fragment analysis. The haplogroup composition differed remarkably between the three groups with dominance of haplogroup I2 in ethnic Macedonians (28.1%), E1b in Albanians (35.3%) and J2a (34.9%) in Turks, respectively. The haplotype analysis using the YFilerPlus kit disclosed a significant reduction in diversity values (DC, GD) for the Turkish subgroup compared to the Macedonian and Albanian speaking populations. The Y-STR based population analysis revealed a similarity of ethnic Macedonians with neighboring Serbians and Bulgarians. The same holds true for the Albanian speakers from Macedonia and Albania, whereas the Turkish minority in North Macedonia stands apart from the population in Turkey.

From the article:

Buccal swabs were collected from 314 healthy unrelated males speaking one of the three major languages that exist in the Republic of North Macedonia (Macedonian-speaking Macedonians n = 103, Turkish-speaking Macedonians n = 109 and Albanian-speaking Macedonians n = 102)

Our population datasets were compared to each other using pairwise genetic distance calculation of Rst and corresponding P-values and also to reported population samples from the region including 100 Albanians from Albania (YA003096) [20], 191 Greek from Northern Greece (YA003465) [21], 203 Serbians from Serbia (YA004149) [22], 91 Bulgarians from Bulgaria (YA004094) and 320 Turks from Turkey (YA003907 and YA003719).

37678

The reduced haplotype diversity in the Turkish subpopulation is probably also responsible for the comparatively large genetic distance to a Turkish population from Turkey (Fig. 2, Table 2). In contrast, the Albanian speaking subpopulation in North Macedonia cannot be differentiated from a sample from Albania and likewise the Slavic-speaking Macedonians are in very close genetic vicinity to other Slavic-speaking groups, the Serbians and Bulgarians (Fig. 2, Table 2).

Different ancestry and admixture of the populations is reflected by a characteristic haplogroup composition for each subpopulation. Haplogroup I2-P215 was found to be the most frequent haplogroup in Macedonian speaking Macedonians (28.1%) followed by R1a-M198 and E1b-M35 (19.4%, respectively). In Albanians the dominant haplogroup is E1b-M35 (35.3%) followed by R1b-M269 (20%) and J2b-M102 (18%) and in the Turkish speakers J2a-M410 is carried by 35% of the population followed by R1b-M269 (20%) and I2-P215 (19%)

Bruzmi
05-21-2020, 11:59 PM
Two papers authored by Renata Jankova-Ajankovska et al:

1)Mitochondrial DNA control region analysis of three ethnic groups in the Republic of Macedonia (https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/82682821.pdf) (2014)

Abstract: A total of 444 individuals representing three ethnic groups (Albanians, Turks and Romanies) in the Republic of Macedonia were sequenced in the mitochondrial control region. The mtDNA haplogroup composition differed between the three groups. Our results showed relatively high frequencies of haplogroup H12 in Albanians (8.8%) and less in Turks (3.3%), while haplogroups M5a1 and H7a1a were dominant in Romanies (13.7% and 10.3%, respectively) but rare in the former two. This highlights the importance of regional sampling for forensic mtDNA databasing purposes. These population data will be available on EMPOP under accession numbers EMP00644 (Albanians), EMP00645 (Romanies) and EMP00646 (Turks).

2)Y-chromosome diversity of the three major ethno-linguistic groups in the Republic of North Macedonia (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497319301097) (2019)


Abstract: A total of 314 individuals representing the three major ethno-linguistic groups (ethnic Macedonians, Albanians and Turks) in the Republic of North Macedonia were analyzed for Y-SNPs and Y-STRs using minisequencing and fragment analysis. The haplogroup composition differed remarkably between the three groups with dominance of haplogroup I2 in ethnic Macedonians (28.1%), E1b in Albanians (35.3%) and J2a (34.9%) in Turks, respectively. The haplotype analysis using the YFilerPlus kit disclosed a significant reduction in diversity values (DC, GD) for the Turkish subgroup compared to the Macedonian and Albanian speaking populations. The Y-STR based population analysis revealed a similarity of ethnic Macedonians with neighboring Serbians and Bulgarians. The same holds true for the Albanian speakers from Macedonia and Albania, whereas the Turkish minority in North Macedonia stands apart from the population in Turkey.

From the article:

Buccal swabs were collected from 314 healthy unrelated males speaking one of the three major languages that exist in the Republic of North Macedonia (Macedonian-speaking Macedonians n = 103, Turkish-speaking Macedonians n = 109 and Albanian-speaking Macedonians n = 102)

Our population datasets were compared to each other using pairwise genetic distance calculation of Rst and corresponding P-values and also to reported population samples from the region including 100 Albanians from Albania (YA003096) [20], 191 Greek from Northern Greece (YA003465) [21], 203 Serbians from Serbia (YA004149) [22], 91 Bulgarians from Bulgaria (YA004094) and 320 Turks from Turkey (YA003907 and YA003719).

37678

The reduced haplotype diversity in the Turkish subpopulation is probably also responsible for the comparatively large genetic distance to a Turkish population from Turkey (Fig. 2, Table 2). In contrast, the Albanian speaking subpopulation in North Macedonia cannot be differentiated from a sample from Albania and likewise the Slavic-speaking Macedonians are in very close genetic vicinity to other Slavic-speaking groups, the Serbians and Bulgarians (Fig. 2, Table 2).

Different ancestry and admixture of the populations is reflected by a characteristic haplogroup composition for each subpopulation. Haplogroup I2-P215 was found to be the most frequent haplogroup in Macedonian speaking Macedonians (28.1%) followed by R1a-M198 and E1b-M35 (19.4%, respectively). In Albanians the dominant haplogroup is E1b-M35 (35.3%) followed by R1b-M269 (20%) and J2b-M102 (18%) and in the Turkish speakers J2a-M410 is carried by 35% of the population followed by R1b-M269 (20%) and I2-P215 (19%)

A few points to open the discussion here:
1. This is a great study. A large sample size, which is distributed all over N. Macedonia. It does have a geographic "bias" towards western Macedonia so R1a and I2 could be higher if more samples from eastern Macedonia were used.

2. Albanians in Macedonia show a very compact community in terms of lineages. This sort of distribution of E-V13, J2b, R1b hints at a very "closed" community in terms of wider contacts. The 10% of R1a/I2 is also very interesting as the fact that despite both having an "all-European" R1b component, Albanians and Turks stand at opposite ends in terms of relation in the graph, which suggests very different R1b clusters.
3. Modern Macedonians have a mostly Slavic origin and cluster close to Bulgarians/Serbs and a 19,4% Paleo-Balkan (Illyrian or Illyro-Thracian) suborigin which is the product of slavicization. It would be interesting to have a more in-depth study to see the relationship between that 19,4% and Albanians in N. Macedonia. It would indicate at which point in history this slavicization process began and it would also highlight more about the history of Albanians.
4. Turks are not really Turkic. Given the fact that Turkish communities in Macedonia formed very early in the 15th-16th century, it means that these come from lineages which were probably Greek-speaking in Anatolia. The 19% I2 strongly hints at an assimilation of Muslims Slavs.

Kelmendasi
05-22-2020, 05:23 PM
This is the Y-DNA breakdown from the study:

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1872497319301097-gr3.jpg

The Albanians of North Macedonia are not lacking in I2 or R1a clusters, however they are found at a lower frequency than that of the Albanians of Albania who are ~9.6% I2 and ~7.6% R1a.

trdbr1234
05-22-2020, 06:36 PM
It is hard to believe there exists such a starch distinction among the 3 communities in Macedonia. I wonder if there was selection bias with which communities were used. For example, did they use the Turkish community of Kozhazhik? I would imagine the Turkish community of Kozhazhik would differ quite a bit from the other Turkish communities in Macedonia. I would also raise the question of why these communities weren't included and if there was some bias in the selection. There is far too much contrast in the distribution to make it believable, in my opinion. Although you never know.

Also, do all the sources require a subscription?
https://i.imgur.com/N6OK1uZ.png

Bruzmi
05-22-2020, 06:54 PM
It is hard to believe there exists such a starch distinction among the 3 communities in Macedonia. I wonder if there was selection bias with which communities were used. For example, did they use the Turkish community of Kozhazhik? I would imagine the Turkish community of Kozhazhik would differ quite a bit from the other Turkish communities in Macedonia. I would also raise the question of why these communities weren't included and if there was some bias in the selection. There is far too much contrast in the distribution to make it believable, in my opinion. Although you never know.

Also, do all the sources require a subscription?
https://i.imgur.com/N6OK1uZ.png

Personally, I think that we might get a result which hints towards a bit more intermarriage among the communities if the sample was larger, but nothing much more different than the existing results. What makes us think that the results should be different has to do with how we perceive the Ottoman Balkans: as a multicultural society with high mobility and high migration rates from region to region where communities regularly intermarried with each other. That is not the case though.

Genetic studies just "break apart" the ideologization of history. The Ottoman Balkans weren't a free-for-all multicultural space as postmodern historiography would have us believe.

I would like to have results from the Vlachs of Krushevo. The E-V13 component in modern Macedonians could also be the result of their slavicization, so exact lineages/clusters would be very revealing.

Tįltos
05-22-2020, 07:01 PM
Personally, I think that we might get a result which hints towards a bit more intermarriage among the communities if the sample was larger, but nothing much more different than the existing results. What makes us think that the results should be different has to do with how we perceive the Ottoman Balkans: as a multicultural society with high mobility and high migration rates from region to region where communities regularly intermarried with each other. That is not the case though.

Genetic studies just "break apart" the ideologization of history. The Ottoman Balkans weren't a free-for-all multicultural space as postmodern historiography would have us believe.

I would like to have results from the Vlachs of Krushevo. The E-V13 component in modern Macedonians could also be the result of their slavicization, so exact lineages/clusters would be very revealing.

What do you think when one does a DNA test today, and they get autosomal matches from all over what was the Ottoman Empire? Is it a case of gene flow one way, or a case of intermarriage?

Being part Arbėreshė I have autosomal matches to people not only from Albania, but Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Romania, Bosnia, Turkey, Cyprus, and Saudi Arabia.

Bruzmi
05-22-2020, 08:40 PM
What do you think when one does a DNA test today, and they get autosomal matches from all over what was the Ottoman Empire? Is it a case of gene flow one way, or a case of intermarriage?

Being part Arbėreshė I have autosomal matches to people not only from Albania, but Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Romania, Bosnia, Turkey, Cyprus, and Saudi Arabia.

I think that it depends on many different factors that have to do with those specific lineages and verifiable historical events. Albanians went as migrant-settlers in Greece in the Middle aAges. Some of them left for Italy with other Albanian communities and some of them stayed and that explains matches today. If you have a Slavic match, then it can be the result of pre-Ottoman intermarriage in Albania or in Greece.

My general point here is not to say that intermarriages didn't happen at all, but that intermarriages between neighbouring populations were far fewer than some historiographical narratives would have us believe.

Tįltos
05-22-2020, 09:25 PM
I think that it depends on many different factors that have to do with those specific lineages and verifiable historical events. Albanians went as migrant-settlers in Greece in the Middle aAges. Some of them left for Italy with other Albanian communities and some of them stayed and that explains matches today. If you have a Slavic match, then it can be the result of pre-Ottoman intermarriage in Albania or in Greece.

My general point here is not to say that intermarriages didn't happen at all, but that intermarriages between neighbouring populations were far fewer than some historiographical narratives would have us believe.

Thanks. I have no idea, but over the years have been surprised at the wide variety of matches that come through this line. Growing up I was unaware of my Albanian roots. Only discovered after getting into genealogy, but as it turned out my family here had already been aware.

The village that my family is from is one of the original Arbėreshė villages in Calabria. A family member had been in contact with them, and they indicated that we had always been in that particular village, but our original last name was lost to memory. Our current name came from a nickname someone was given for traveling.

I look forward to when you post about some of the southern Albanian tribes as I would guess my family descends from them. Does the Basta family come from the southern ones? My great great grandmother was a Basta. I know that particular line married twice into the line that has the nickname surname.

vettor
05-22-2020, 09:38 PM
This is the Y-DNA breakdown from the study:

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1872497319301097-gr3.jpg

The Albanians of North Macedonia are not lacking in I2 or R1a clusters, however they are found at a lower frequency than that of the Albanians of Albania who are ~9.6% I2 and ~7.6% R1a.

are the 2 x macedonian KLT-M9 have these kit number 300643 and 318402 .............if so, their ancestors arrived from Erzya ( Russia ) .....part of the Mordvins people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordvins#Ethnic_structure

Kelmendasi
05-22-2020, 09:51 PM
are the 2 x macedonian KLT-M9 have these kit number 300643 and 318402 .............if so, their ancestors arrived from Erzya ( Russia ) .....part of the Mordvins people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordvins#Ethnic_structure
Not sure to be honest, what makes you say that they're of Mordvin ancestry?

vettor
05-22-2020, 09:57 PM
Not sure to be honest, what makes you say that they're of Mordvin ancestry?

I have spoken to the 2 mentioned

also YHRD , where this paper was placed by the author and accepted ( hard to be accepted at this site ) states another T ( an albanian ) from Macedonia, east of lake Ohrid

Kelmendasi
05-22-2020, 10:08 PM
Thanks. I have no idea, but over the years have been surprised at the wide variety of matches that come through this line. Growing up I was unaware of my Albanian roots. Only discovered after getting into genealogy, but as it turned out my family here had already been aware.

The village that my family is from is one of the original Arbėreshė villages in Calabria. A family member had been in contact with them, and they indicated that we had always been in that particular village, but our original last name was lost to memory. Our current name came from a nickname someone was given for traveling.

I look forward to when you post about some of the southern Albanian tribes as I would guess my family descends from them. Does the Basta family come from the southern ones? My great great grandmother was a Basta. I know that particular line married twice into the line that has the nickname surname.
Do you know which village in Calabria it is that your maternal family is from? We could potentially find out where your ancestors came from by looking at the history of the village. For example, the village of Villa Badessa (Badhesa) is inhabited by Arbėreshė or Albanians that had arrived during the 18th century. They were originally from the villages located on the southwestern coast, such as Lukovė, Piqeras, Shėn Vasil etc.

As for Basta, this surname seems to be pretty widespread across the Arbėreshė community. I wonder if it's connected to Giorgio Basta (Gjergj Basta), who's father Demeterio (Dhimitėr), is believed to have come from a town called Basta/Bashta that was apparently located between Saranda and Butrint in southwestern Albania and was built by the Venetians.

Kelmendasi
05-22-2020, 10:14 PM
I have spoken to the 2 mentioned

also YHRD , where this paper was placed by the author and accepted ( hard to be accepted at this site ) states another T ( an albanian ) from Macedonia, east of lake Ohrid
I see, I wonder what they base this on. Perhaps they are more recent arrivals...

Bruzmi
05-22-2020, 11:05 PM
Do you know which village in Calabria it is that your maternal family is from? We could potentially find out where your ancestors came from by looking at the history of the village. For example, the village of Villa Badessa (Badhesa) is inhabited by Arbėreshė or Albanians that had arrived during the 18th century. They were originally from the villages located on the southwestern coast, such as Lukovė, Piqeras, Shėn Vasil etc.

As for Basta, this surname seems to be pretty widespread across the Arbėreshė community. I wonder if it's connected to Giorgio Basta (Gjergj Basta), who's father Demeterio (Dhimitėr), is believed to have come from a town called Basta/Bashta that was apparently located between Saranda and Butrint in southwestern Albania and was built by the Venetians.

Bast(i)a/Bashta is Sagiada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagiada). But in general, the Basta family is not considered to be connected with this area, which was known in Venetian as "La Bastia", but not to the locals.

I think that we're dealing with a sub-tribe named Basta which lived in Myzeqe. Gjon Muzaka in the 1510s names their village "Basti" as one of the villages of Myzeqe. Today, the Fortress of Bashtovė (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_of_Bashtov%C3%AB) reminds us of their name. Them being a tribe of Myzeqe also means that they were a sub-tribe/brotherhood of the Lalė. Now, the Lalė migrated en masse in the Peloponnese at the invitation of Venice as we've discussed before: in Elis, Patras and Arcadia mostly. And guess what? There's a Basta village in Arcadia, which Valentini (1956) also mentions: "inoltre Basta in Arcadia (K)"

So, we have a branch of Basta brotherhoods which moved to Sicily after the Ottoman conquest of the Peloponnese and we have another branch of Basta that moved from Myzeqe to San Martino di Finito (Calabria), Roccaforzata (Apulia), Monteparano (Apulia) and Foggia (Apulia). Are you related to any of these, Taltos? There are also Basta branches that remained in Greece and there's a documented migration of craftsmen and villagers from Myzeqe to an area of four villages in Bulgaria: Arbanasi, Lyaskovets, Dolna and Gorna Oryahovitsa.


This branching could also explain your matches to Greece and elsewhere.

Kelmendasi
05-22-2020, 11:31 PM
Bast(i)a/Bashta is Sagiada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagiada). But in general, the Basta family is not considered to be connected with this area, which was known in Venetian as "La Bastia", but not to the locals.

I think that we're dealing with a sub-tribe named Basta which lived in Myzeqe. Gjon Muzaka in the 1510s names their village "Basti" as one of the villages of Myzeqe. Today, the Fortress of Bashtovė (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_of_Bashtov%C3%AB) reminds us of their name. Them being a tribe of Myzeqe also means that they were a sub-tribe/brotherhood of the Lalė. Now, the Lalė migrated en masse in the Peloponnese at the invitation of Venice as we've discussed before: in Elis, Patras and Arcadia mostly. And guess what? There's a Basta village in Arcadia, which Valentini (1956) also mentions: "inoltre Basta in Arcadia (K)"

So, we have a branch of Basta brotherhoods which moved to Sicily after the Ottoman conquest of the Peloponnese and we have another branch of Basta that moved from Myzeqe to San Martino di Finito (Calabria), Roccaforzata (Apulia), Monteparano (Apulia) and Foggia (Apulia). Are you related to any of these, Taltos? There are also Basta branches that remained in Greece and there's a documented migration of craftsmen and villagers from Myzeqe to an area of four villages in Bulgaria: Arbanasi, Lyaskovets, Dolna and Gorna Oryahovitsa.


This branching could also explain your matches to Greece and elsewhere.
Interesting that you mention the Albanians of Bulgaria, I know that in the village of Mandritsa most of the inhabitants trace their origin back to the village of Vithkuq in Korēė.

Tįltos
05-23-2020, 02:58 AM
Thank you guys, very interesting with the Peloponnese. My family is from San Nicola dell'Alto. Years ago one of my cousins had been corresponding with family there. The family member that could translate English indicated that our family had been in the village for a very long time. The original surname was not remembered of my mother's direct paternal line there.

He had sent a picture of my great great grandfather. In the photo he is in a military uniform, and looks to have been Bersaglieri. His hat had long black feathers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bersaglieri
He was born in 1858, just to give some context as to how far back I got in this line.
He married Carmina Basta. She is from the same village. My understanding is this is one of the original villages given to soldiers under the command of Demetrio Reres that had helped the King of Naples with an uprising.

Unfortunately when I tried to email the family there, the email no longer works. I have connected with the village's page on Facebook, but I have not been able to get any further in understanding my family's roots. Looking at the DNA, my mother's direct Y line ended up not being a typical Albanian one. My cousin turned out to be J-ZS1711. I have to eventually get a Big Y for him. This result is from the FTDNA SNP Pack for J1.

Besides our autosomal matches seeming to be from all around, I have to admit I found it a little annoying that they couldn't at least give my mom at 23andme any recent ancestor locations to Albania. We do get some 4 ancestor matches to Gjirokastėr County, Albania. Specifically to Pėrmet, Tepelenė, and Sopik. There is another match that lists all four ancestors to Gurakuq, Rrethi i Elbasanit, Qarku i Elbasanit, Albania.

Looking at her admixture on 23andme she is 21.5% Greek and Balkan, 15.3% Italian, and 6.3% West Asian & North African that could be attributed to this line. She has two first cousins also tested there that are half Arbėreshė like her. My daughter, and myself have also tested there. We all have this combination of Greek/Balkan/Italian/WANA.

So for my mom's recent ancestor locations she gets in this order-Pelpoponnese, Central Greece, Western Greece, Decentralized Administrative of Attica, Epirus, Crete Region, Thessalia, Western Macedonia, Northern Aegean. All of us get the Peloponnese as our top match!

For Italy she gets in this order Calabria, Sicily, Campania, Apulia, Basilicata, Abruzzo, Lazio.

No one gets recent ancestor locations for the WANA but my mom and I both get Levantine that stays in all modes, the other cousins get Anatolian.

So not sure how much of this can tell me anything more. I really need to get back at least two more generations paper trail wise from my great great grandparents. So if you guys have any ideas I am all ears! :)

dosas
05-23-2020, 05:03 AM
Interesting that you mention the Albanians of Bulgaria, I know that in the village of Mandritsa most of the inhabitants trace their origin back to the village of Vithkuq in Korēė.

Lytitsa, next to Mandritsa, was also an Arvanite village, I think the locals pronounced it "Lyts-ta". I found I had a great-grandmother from there.

td120
05-23-2020, 09:36 AM
According to local legend recorded in the 1960s, Albanians came to Mandritsa from
the village of Vitkuki(Vithkuq) in southern Albania 300–350 years ago (ie in the first half of the 17th century). Initially
12 families settled here together with the priest. They started delivering fattened cattle,
cheese and butter for the Turkish army in Edirne, which means that like other Albanian settlements in
Bulgaria was engaged in cattle breeding, processing and trade in animal products.
The village today has two churches, served until 1913 by Greek priests. The oldest of them is from 1718
.
(22)
The preserved legend about the creation of the village in the first half of the 17th century overlaps with data
from Ottoman registers of 1627 and 1634, which show a rapid increase in population due to
of settlement from outside. For the first time an Ottoman tax register from 1627 mentions the village as
Mandrajak (literal Turkish translation of Mandritsa) with 18 households. After seven years the new one
tax registration reports an increase in households to 25. Apparently after this counting process
the settlement of new Albanian families has continued, otherwise it is difficult to explain the increase
of families up to 350 at the end of the XIX century.
(23)
The only in-depth study of the village is by the Albanian scholar Boyka Sokolova, who dedicated an entire
studies of the Albanian dialect of the inhabitants. According to her, the speech is closer to that of the Albanians from
Devol region, than that of the region Voskopoya-Vitkuki. It is also related to that of the Albanians
from Devnya, living today in Ukraine (24). For three centuries the population of Mandritsa
increased more than 12 times, which from a demographic point of view cannot be explained only as
consequence of natural growth.
Before the Balkan War in 1912, the purely Albanian Mandritsa numbered 1,879 people, which figure
can be considered as a peak in the demographic development of the settlement (25). ...Mandritsa was second only to Ortakoy (today Ivaylovgrad), inhabited by 5100 Orthodox Greeks. Most of the Greeks in this part of Thrace too
originated in the region of Epirus...

Google Translation from:
https://web.archive.org/web/20110724004534/http://www.imir-bg.org/imir/books/albancite_v_iztochnite_balkani.pdf

Contents:

INTRODUCTION
BULGARIANS AND ALBANIANS IN THE LAND OF TODAY'S ALBANIA VII-XV CENTURIES
Settlement of the Slavs in the lands of today's Albania
Slavic influences on Albanian toponymy and language
Expanding the borders of the Bulgarian state
to the Adriatic coast
About the appearance of the Albanians in the historical sources and the location of the Arban district
Changes in the ethnic structure of Southern Albania and Epirus in the 13th-14th centuries.
Bulgarians in Albania in the fourteenth century.
Early migrations of Albanians to Macedonia
Islamization processes as a factor for
resettlement of Albanians to the east in the 16th century.
The fate of the Bulgarian inhabitants of Albania after the fifteenth century.
ALBANIAN CATHOLIC COLONIES IN THE BULGARIAN LAND
Development of the Albanian Catholic colony in Kratovo
Albanians in Kopilovtsi and the neighboring Catholic settlements
SETTLEMENTS OF ORTHODOX ALBANIANS IN NORTHERN BULGARIA
Establishment and development of the village of Arbanassi, Tarnovo region
The Albanian colony in Chervena Voda, Ruse region
The Albanians in Poroishte (Arnautkoy), Razgrad region
The Albanians from Dobrina, Provadia and Devnya, Varna region
PARTICIPATION OF ALBANIANS IN THE STRUGGLE AGAINST THE OTTOMAN RULE IN BULGARIA
Rebellion of Orthodox Albanians from Northern Bulgaria in 1595
and their participation in the army of Mihai Vityaz
The Albanians from Northern Bulgaria in the rebel movements of 1688–1689
Participation of the Albanians from Poroishte in the Russo-Turkish War of 1806–1812
TRADERS FROM ALBANIAN SETTLEMENTS IN NORTHERN BULGARIA
Traders from Kopilovtsi
Djelepkeshani of Albanian origin in the Bulgarian lands
Traders from Chervena Voda
Merchants from Arbanassi
Traders from Poroishte
MIGRATION OF ALBANIANS FROM NORTHERN BULGARIA TO WALLACHIA, MOLDOVA AND UKRAINE
Albanians in Wallachia and Moldova
About the origin of the Moldovan voivode Vasile Lupu from the Razgrad village of Poroishte
Albanians in Ukraine

ALBANIANS SOUTH OF THE BALKANS
Albanians in Sofia in the 17th century.
The villages of Gorno and Dolno Arbanassi, Asenovgrad region
Albanians in Eastern and Western Thrace


Could not find a version other than the Bulgarian one.

Kelmendasi
05-23-2020, 10:38 AM
Thank you guys, very interesting with the Peloponnese. My family is from San Nicola dell'Alto. Years ago one of my cousins had been corresponding with family there. The family member that could translate English indicated that our family had been in the village for a very long time. The original surname was not remembered of my mother's direct paternal line there.

He had sent a picture of my great great grandfather. In the photo he is in a military uniform, and looks to have been Bersaglieri. His hat had long black feathers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bersaglieri
He was born in 1858, just to give some context as to how far back I got in this line.
He married Carmina Basta. She is from the same village. My understanding is this is one of the original villages given to soldiers under the command of Demetrio Reres that had helped the King of Naples with an uprising.

Unfortunately when I tried to email the family there, the email no longer works. I have connected with the village's page on Facebook, but I have not been able to get any further in understanding my family's roots. Looking at the DNA, my mother's direct Y line ended up not being a typical Albanian one. My cousin turned out to be J-ZS1711. I have to eventually get a Big Y for him. This result is from the FTDNA SNP Pack for J1.

Besides our autosomal matches seeming to be from all around, I have to admit I found it a little annoying that they couldn't at least give my mom at 23andme any recent ancestor locations to Albania. We do get some 4 ancestor matches to Gjirokastėr County, Albania. Specifically to Pėrmet, Tepelenė, and Sopik. There is another match that lists all four ancestors to Gurakuq, Rrethi i Elbasanit, Qarku i Elbasanit, Albania.

Looking at her admixture on 23andme she is 21.5% Greek and Balkan, 15.3% Italian, and 6.3% West Asian & North African that could be attributed to this line. She has two first cousins also tested there that are half Arbėreshė like her. My daughter, and myself have also tested there. We all have this combination of Greek/Balkan/Italian/WANA.

So for my mom's recent ancestor locations she gets in this order-Pelpoponnese, Central Greece, Western Greece, Decentralized Administrative of Attica, Epirus, Crete Region, Thessalia, Western Macedonia, Northern Aegean. All of us get the Peloponnese as our top match!

For Italy she gets in this order Calabria, Sicily, Campania, Apulia, Basilicata, Abruzzo, Lazio.

No one gets recent ancestor locations for the WANA but my mom and I both get Levantine that stays in all modes, the other cousins get Anatolian.

So not sure how much of this can tell me anything more. I really need to get back at least two more generations paper trail wise from my great great grandparents. So if you guys have any ideas I am all ears! :)
Very interesting! The village of San Nicola dell'Alto is known as Shėn Koll/Shin Koll (Saint Nicholas) in the local Arbėreshė dialect of Albanian. Certain records show that Albanian-speakers had been trading and setting up their own vineyards in San Nicola dell'Alto since 1472, so we can assume that the village was settled by the Arbėreshė during the 15th century. It isn't specifically stated where they came from, only southern Albania and the Peloponnese are mentioned.

As for J-ZS1711, this cluster of J1-M267 has yet to show up among Albanians from Albania. However, this does not mean that it will not, for example so far I am the only Albanian that has tested as ZS241+. My guess is that, if it does not show up among other Albanian-speakers after more testing, it's the result of intermarriages with locals from the Italian Peninsula. But I think that it will possibly show up in the Balkans.

Tįltos
05-23-2020, 02:10 PM
Very interesting! The village of San Nicola dell'Alto is known as Shėn Koll/Shin Koll (Saint Nicholas) in the local Arbėreshė dialect of Albanian. Certain records show that Albanian-speakers had been trading and setting up their own vineyards in San Nicola dell'Alto since 1472, so we can assume that the village was settled by the Arbėreshė during the 15th century. It isn't specifically stated where they came from, only southern Albania and the Peloponnese are mentioned.

As for J-ZS1711, this cluster of J1-M267 has yet to show up among Albanians from Albania. However, this does not mean that it will not, for example so far I am the only Albanian that has tested as ZS241+. My guess is that, if it does not show up among other Albanian-speakers after more testing, it's the result of intermarriages with locals from the Italian Peninsula. But I think that it will possibly show up in the Balkans.

Thank you, and that must explain my love for wine! :biggrin1: If you can put a link to that about the vineyards that would be great. I know I heard that region of Italy (Crotone) was known for their wine. The family from San Nicola dell'Alto indicated that a sulphur mine had been very big in the area for work but sometime in the 1950s it closed. It's closing caused people to leave the village to look for work elsewhere.

I know, we are like the few J1's! And we couldn't even really be a match, darn! On 23andme there are at least two more. The match who is four ancestors from Sopik is J-M267. Another match who lists Albania for 3 grandparents, but for his direct paternal line he has Montenegro is J-CTS5368.

Not to forget the mtDNA my grandfather's mother was from the same village. She is not the Basta line. Her direct line is Rizzo on mtDNA. My cousin turned out to be mtDNA K2b1, which I don't think K is found among the Albanians usually correct? We get several DNA cousins who also report ancestry from our village of San Nicola dell'Alto. One of those cousins has a really interesting mtDNA of M1a.

Kelmendasi
05-23-2020, 03:41 PM
Thank you, and that must explain my love for wine! :biggrin1: If you can put a link to that about the vineyards that would be great. I know I heard that region of Italy (Crotone) was known for their wine. The family from San Nicola dell'Alto indicated that a salt mine had been very big in the area for work but sometime in the 1950s it closed. It's closing caused people to leave the village to look for work elsewhere.

I know, we are like the few J1's! And we couldn't even really be a match, darn! On 23andme there are at least two more. The match who is four ancestors from Sopik is J-M267. Another match who lists Albania for 3 grandparents, but for his direct paternal line he has Montenegro is J-CTS5368.

Not to forget the mtDNA my grandfather's mother was from the same village. She is not the Basta line. Her direct line is Rizzo on mtDNA. My cousin turned out to be mtDNA K2b1, which I don't think K is found among the Albanians usually correct? We get several DNA cousins who also report ancestry from our village of San Nicola dell'Alto. One of those cousins has a really interesting mtDNA of M1a.
This is the link to the paper that mentions vineyards in the village of San Nicola dell'Alto in 1472: http://www.dimarcomezzojuso.it/download.php?file=pubs/996/libro.pdf&as=Shundi-E%28T%29NOGASTRONOMIAARB%C3%8BRESHE%28Shtjellohene dhe625recetagjell%C3%ABshdhe%C3%ABmb%C3%ABlsirash% 29.pdf. It is in Albanian however.

I too match a J-M267 individual from Sopik on 23andme, and judging by his surname and the other listed surnames, he should belong to the Greek minority of Albania. As for the J-CTS5368 guy that has paternal roots from Montenegro, he could be J-Y19093 since there are Albanians from Montenegro that belong to this cluster. I match one of them on 23andme. There are also some other J1-M267 Albanians on 23andme that could possibly be ZS241 or ZS1711, we won't know till they test.

Rizzo seems to be the Italian variant of the surname Rico, I also see that they are present in villages such as: San Giacomo (Shėn Xhiakomo), Cavallerizzo (Kavallerico), Lungro etc.

Tįltos
05-23-2020, 03:45 PM
This is the link to the paper that mentions vineyards in the village of San Nicola dell'Alto in 1472: http://www.dimarcomezzojuso.it/download.php?file=pubs/996/libro.pdf&as=Shundi-E%28T%29NOGASTRONOMIAARB%C3%8BRESHE%28Shtjellohene dhe625recetagjell%C3%ABshdhe%C3%ABmb%C3%ABlsirash% 29.pdf. It is in Albanian however.

I too match a J-M267 individual from Sopik on 23andme, and judging by his surname and the other listed surnames, he should belong to the Greek minority of Albania. As for the J-CTS5368 guy that has paternal roots from Montenegro, he could be J-Y19093 since there are Albanians from Montenegro that belong to this cluster. I match one of them on 23andme. There are also some other J1-M267 Albanians on 23andme that could possibly be ZS241 or ZS1711, we won't know till they test.

Rizzo seems to be the Italian variant of the surname Rico, I also see that they are present in villages such as: San Giacomo (Shėn Xhiakomo), Cavallerizzo (Kavallerico), Lungro etc.
Thank you very much! I’ll have to see if I can use an online translator for that.

Hopefully somehow we can get these other J1 to test further. It would be great if they can be placed on one of our branches.

I will have to check out your Rico suggestion further.

digital_noise
05-23-2020, 10:52 PM
Thank you, and that must explain my love for wine! :biggrin1: If you can put a link to that about the vineyards that would be great. I know I heard that region of Italy (Crotone) was known for their wine. The family from San Nicola dell'Alto indicated that a sulphur mine had been very big in the area for work but sometime in the 1950s it closed. It's closing caused people to leave the village to look for work elsewhere.

I know, we are like the few J1's! And we couldn't even really be a match, darn! On 23andme there are at least two more. The match who is four ancestors from Sopik is J-M267. Another match who lists Albania for 3 grandparents, but for his direct paternal line he has Montenegro is J-CTS5368.

Not to forget the mtDNA my grandfather's mother was from the same village. She is not the Basta line. Her direct line is Rizzo on mtDNA. My cousin turned out to be mtDNA K2b1, which I don't think K is found among the Albanians usually correct? We get several DNA cousins who also report ancestry from our village of San Nicola dell'Alto. One of those cousins has a really interesting mtDNA of M1a.

The wine from the area is Cirņ, based on the Gaglioppo grape. I recommend it, if you can find it. Calabrian wine is fantastic but its hard to find

Tįltos
05-24-2020, 05:56 AM
The wine from the area is Cirņ, based on the Gaglioppo grape. I recommend it, if you can find it. Calabrian wine is fantastic but its hard to find

I have heard of it. I would love to try it one day. :)

Bruzmi
05-24-2020, 10:58 PM
Thank you guys, very interesting with the Peloponnese. My family is from San Nicola dell'Alto. Years ago one of my cousins had been corresponding with family there. The family member that could translate English indicated that our family had been in the village for a very long time. The original surname was not remembered of my mother's direct paternal line there.

He had sent a picture of my great great grandfather. In the photo he is in a military uniform, and looks to have been Bersaglieri. His hat had long black feathers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bersaglieri
He was born in 1858, just to give some context as to how far back I got in this line.
He married Carmina Basta. She is from the same village. My understanding is this is one of the original villages given to soldiers under the command of Demetrio Reres that had helped the King of Naples with an uprising.

Hey, Taltos. Hope you're safe and well.

I did a bit of research in the past days. The Basta tribe was present in San Nicola dell'Alto since the very beginning, which means that it was part of the initial Albanian migration. It was also the most common surname in the village already in 1543. From the 1543 census the surnames of the village are: Basta, Bisulca, Canossa, Camideca, Carida, Carvisei, Clamaro, Como, Duca, Gangale, Gliaresti, Gliarisi, Grana, Incondissi, Lalti, Malicchia, Musacchio, Masi, Pangrati, Pillora, Scarriopolo and Tarassio.

I've highlighted those which apart from Basta indicate in clear terms that these people came from the Myzeqe region, originally. Cola and Michele Basta are recorded in 1543 as leaders of the community.

trdbr1234
05-25-2020, 01:25 AM
Hey, Taltos. Hope you're safe and well.

I did a bit of research in the past days. The Basta tribe was present in San Nicola dell'Alto since the very beginning, which means that it was part of the initial Albanian migration. It was also the most common surname in the village already in 1543. From the 1543 census the surnames of the village are: Basta, Bisulca, Canossa, Camideca, Carida, Carvisei, Clamaro, Como, Duca, Gangale, Gliaresti, Gliarisi, Grana, Incondissi, Lalti, Malicchia, Musacchio, Masi, Pangrati, Pillora, Scarriopolo and Tarassio.

I've highlighted those which apart from Basta indicate in clear terms that these people came from the Myzeqe region, originally. Cola and Michele Basta are recorded in 1543 as leaders of the community.

These two surnames stuck out at me. Duca(Duka) and Camideca. Is it possible that the route of their migration went through Myzeqe? These two surnames are common in Diber (Golloborde more specifically). Although I know they are found in the south as well. Malichia is a surname that can be found in the region as well. Although this surname is found in Laberia as well I believe.

trdbr1234
05-25-2020, 01:41 AM
Personally, I think that we might get a result which hints towards a bit more intermarriage among the communities if the sample was larger, but nothing much more different than the existing results. What makes us think that the results should be different has to do with how we perceive the Ottoman Balkans: as a multicultural society with high mobility and high migration rates from region to region where communities regularly intermarried with each other. That is not the case though.

Genetic studies just "break apart" the ideologization of history. The Ottoman Balkans weren't a free-for-all multicultural space as postmodern historiography would have us believe.

I would like to have results from the Vlachs of Krushevo. The E-V13 component in modern Macedonians could also be the result of their slavicization, so exact lineages/clusters would be very revealing.

I disagree. I don't think Albanian were living in a island of their own as I don't think other Balkan communities were living on their own separate island either. I think genetics has showed that Albanians have been the contributor far more than a recipient of gene flow. I don't think this applies to regions with mixed ethnicity such as Macedonia. I was reading this paper.

A MIRROR FOR THE SUBORDINATED AND THE HUMILIATED AT THE BALKANS Concept and editorial: Prof. Aneta Svetieva
https://docplayer.net/8785193-A-mirror-for-the-subordinated-and-the-humiliated-at-the-balkans-concept-and-editorial-prof-aneta-svetieva.html

Even-though I understand the biases of the different authors, I would like to quote one part.


In the Turkish period and immediately after it, the most acceptablepublic ethnic name for the Islamised from Macedonia (Macedonians, Albanians andothers) was “Turk“, which gave a possibility for identification with the Turkish Muslimstate. Also, according to the popular opinion, “a Turk equals a Muslim and vice versa“.During the last century of the Turkish empire when the state did not have a realauthority over its territory and when the Albanian Muslims have acquired most of thefunctions of the state in the Western and North-western parts of ethnic Macedonia,the Albanian ethnic feeling started to gain strength. As a result of this situation, theprocess of Albanization of the Macedonian Islamized population has also gainedstrength. The old formulae that “a Turk equals a Muslim and vice versa“ started tochange and to emerge filled with new content, that is, that “an Albanian equals aMuslim and vice versa“. There are many examples, but a most typical one comes fromGorna Reka9 This is proved by the recent field research. For example, a Muslim fromGorna Reka would never identify himself with the ethnic name “Torbesh“ or “Shkret“.If he would be put in a situation today to publicly identify himself in ethnic terms, at alocal level he would identify himself as inhabitant of Gorna Reka, while in the officialcensus as an “Albanian“ (in the past as well as a “Turk“), contrary to their fellowChristian villagers who also identify themselves as inhabitants of Gorna Reka, but inthe official census as Macedonians. This phenomenon would not be strange if onewould not be aware that it is a matter of a mixed, culturally unique ethnic group of“Gornorekanci“ that belong to two confessions, but have mutual cultural characteristics(bylinguism=Albanian and Macedonian language, costume, economy, customary law,almost the whole folk calendar, folklore etc.).

Kristo Frasheri in Historia E Dibres states that Koxhaxhik took part in the struggles of Dibra against the Ottomans. Even-though Koxhaxhik and the Zhupa area today speak and identify as Turkish. I think this paper illustrates that national identities have been fluid.

I don't think it is fair to lump all Turks in Macedonia together, as I don't think it is fair to lump all "Torbesh" in Macedonia together. The different communities in Macedonia are not homogenous with one-another but for the most part heterogenous to one-another, in my opinion.

Tįltos
05-25-2020, 04:48 PM
Hey, Taltos. Hope you're safe and well.

I did a bit of research in the past days. The Basta tribe was present in San Nicola dell'Alto since the very beginning, which means that it was part of the initial Albanian migration. It was also the most common surname in the village already in 1543. From the 1543 census the surnames of the village are: Basta, Bisulca, Canossa, Camideca, Carida, Carvisei, Clamaro, Como, Duca, Gangale, Gliaresti, Gliarisi, Grana, Incondissi, Lalti, Malicchia, Musacchio, Masi, Pangrati, Pillora, Scarriopolo and Tarassio.

I've highlighted those which apart from Basta indicate in clear terms that these people came from the Myzeqe region, originally. Cola and Michele Basta are recorded in 1543 as leaders of the community.

Hi Maleschreiber, thank you very much I am doing good. I hope you are safe, and well too. These are strange days. Hopefully we put this Pandemic behind us sooner than later.

Wow and thank you very much for finding the names from the 1543 census! Amazing! Besides the Basta that I know for sure, autosomal matches that we get are to Musacchio, and Gangale! I haven't quite had time to compare all the surnames to all the kits I manage from my family. It will be interesting to see if there will be more. I can't help but wonder if my grandfather's original surname name is among those you have listed.

Bruzmi
05-25-2020, 09:40 PM
Hi Maleschreiber, thank you very much I am doing good. I hope you are safe, and well too. These are strange days. Hopefully we put this Pandemic behind us sooner than later.

Wow and thank you very much for finding the names from the 1543 census! Amazing! Besides the Basta that I know for sure, autosomal matches that we get are to Musacchio, and Gangale! I haven't quite had time to compare all the surnames to all the kits I manage from my family. It will be interesting to see if there will be more. I can't help but wonder if my grandfather's original surname name is among those you have listed.

Wow, that is very interesting!! Maybe you're eventually able to map a good portion of your genealogy.
In the 1665 census apart from those of the 1543 census, these surnames are also present: Baffi, Comodo, Condosta, Ingravo, Italiano, L'Arte, Livani, Pillari (it could be just another form of the earlier Pillora), Mustacchia, Statte, Ungaro.

The Baffi were a tribe with a similar migration pattern with the Basta. Also, a note on "Ungaro": it doesn't refer to a "Hungarian" as one might think at first glance, but someone who came from Ungra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lungro) (Lungro in Italian), another Arbėresh village in Calabria. (The toponym refers to a microtoponym in the holdings these Albanian migrants were granted).

Tįltos
05-28-2020, 09:05 PM
Wow, that is very interesting!! Maybe you're eventually able to map a good portion of your genealogy.
In the 1665 census apart from those of the 1543 census, these surnames are also present: Baffi, Comodo, Condosta, Ingravo, Italiano, L'Arte, Livani, Pillari (it could be just another form of the earlier Pillora), Mustacchia, Statte, Ungaro.

The Baffi were a tribe with a similar migration pattern with the Basta. Also, a note on "Ungaro": it doesn't refer to a "Hungarian" as one might think at first glance, but someone who came from Ungra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lungro) (Lungro in Italian), another Arbėresh village in Calabria. (The toponym refers to a microtoponym in the holdings these Albanian migrants were granted).

Thank you again for this! Hopefully I will be able to map this out one day. Looking quickly at this list, I know for sure we get matches to Baffi too.

Scar
06-03-2020, 08:55 PM
Thank you guys, very interesting with the Peloponnese. My family is from San Nicola dell'Alto. Years ago one of my cousins had been corresponding with family there. The family member that could translate English indicated that our family had been in the village for a very long time. The original surname was not remembered of my mother's direct paternal line there.

He had sent a picture of my great great grandfather. In the photo he is in a military uniform, and looks to have been Bersaglieri. His hat had long black feathers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bersaglieri
He was born in 1858, just to give some context as to how far back I got in this line.
He married Carmina Basta. She is from the same village. My understanding is this is one of the original villages given to soldiers under the command of Demetrio Reres that had helped the King of Naples with an uprising.

Unfortunately when I tried to email the family there, the email no longer works. I have connected with the village's page on Facebook, but I have not been able to get any further in understanding my family's roots. Looking at the DNA, my mother's direct Y line ended up not being a typical Albanian one. My cousin turned out to be J-ZS1711. I have to eventually get a Big Y for him. This result is from the FTDNA SNP Pack for J1.

Besides our autosomal matches seeming to be from all around, I have to admit I found it a little annoying that they couldn't at least give my mom at 23andme any recent ancestor locations to Albania. We do get some 4 ancestor matches to Gjirokastėr County, Albania. Specifically to Pėrmet, Tepelenė, and Sopik. There is another match that lists all four ancestors to Gurakuq, Rrethi i Elbasanit, Qarku i Elbasanit, Albania.

Looking at her admixture on 23andme she is 21.5% Greek and Balkan, 15.3% Italian, and 6.3% West Asian & North African that could be attributed to this line. She has two first cousins also tested there that are half Arbėreshė like her. My daughter, and myself have also tested there. We all have this combination of Greek/Balkan/Italian/WANA.

So for my mom's recent ancestor locations she gets in this order-Pelpoponnese, Central Greece, Western Greece, Decentralized Administrative of Attica, Epirus, Crete Region, Thessalia, Western Macedonia, Northern Aegean. All of us get the Peloponnese as our top match!

For Italy she gets in this order Calabria, Sicily, Campania, Apulia, Basilicata, Abruzzo, Lazio.

No one gets recent ancestor locations for the WANA but my mom and I both get Levantine that stays in all modes, the other cousins get Anatolian.

So not sure how much of this can tell me anything more. I really need to get back at least two more generations paper trail wise from my great great grandparents. So if you guys have any ideas I am all ears! :)

Most waves of Arbereshe came from Albania and Epirus and two from Peloponnese.

Kelmendasi
06-06-2020, 12:28 AM
It turns out that the noble Dukagjini family of Medieval North Albania most probably belonged to haplogroup J2b-PH1751 http://www.gjenetika.com/testohet-nje-pasardhes-i-familjes-dukagjini/. This result is based on the fact that a sample of Albanian origin from Aleppo, Syria, who directly descends from Dukaginzāde Ahmed Pasha has tested as such. Dukaginzāde Ahmed Pasha was an Ottoman statesman of Albanian origin descending from the noble Dukagjini family, he even served as the Grand Vizier between 1512 and 1515 and is believed to have died in Amasya, Turkey.

J2b-PH1751 is a typical Albanian cluster, confirming that the Dukagjini were of Albanian origin and that the tales of Norman origin were in fact made up.

gjenetiks
06-06-2020, 03:16 AM
It turns out that the noble Dukagjini family of Medieval North Albania most probably belonged to haplogroup J2b-PH1751 http://www.gjenetika.com/testohet-nje-pasardhes-i-familjes-dukagjini/. This result is based on the fact that a sample of Albanian origin from Aleppo, Syria, who directly descends from Dukaginzāde Ahmed Pasha has tested as such. Dukaginzāde Ahmed Pasha was an Ottoman statesman of Albanian origin descending from the noble Dukagjini family, he even served as the Grand Vizier between 1512 and 1515 and is believed to have died in Amasya, Turkey.

J2b-PH1751 is a typical Albanian cluster, confirming that the Dukagjini were of Albanian origin and that the tales of Norman origin were in fact made up.

Are we sure this guy from Aleppo really descended from Ahmed Pasha? If this is in fact confirmed, than this is a breakthrough, and very cool news.

Kelmendasi
06-06-2020, 12:30 PM
Are we sure this guy from Aleppo really descended from Ahmed Pasha? If this is in fact confirmed, than this is a breakthrough, and very cool news.
From what I have gathered, yes, he is a confirmed direct descendant of Ahmed Pasha and still even bears the last name Dukaginzāde.

Would be great if one of the direct descendants of Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg could also test. From what I have gathered, there are a number of Arbėreshė with the last name Castriota, though many of them are actually unrelated to the actual Kastrioti family. The family that is confirmed through documentation to be directly descended from Skanderbeg is the Castriota Scanderbeg, who from what I have gathered were spread throughout southern Italy in towns such as Lecce and Naples.

Bruzmi
06-06-2020, 06:06 PM
It turns out that the noble Dukagjini family of Medieval North Albania most probably belonged to haplogroup J2b-PH1751 http://www.gjenetika.com/testohet-nje-pasardhes-i-familjes-dukagjini/. This result is based on the fact that a sample of Albanian origin from Aleppo, Syria, who directly descends from Dukaginzāde Ahmed Pasha has tested as such. Dukaginzāde Ahmed Pasha was an Ottoman statesman of Albanian origin descending from the noble Dukagjini family, he even served as the Grand Vizier between 1512 and 1515 and is believed to have died in Amasya, Turkey.

J2b-PH1751 is a typical Albanian cluster, confirming that the Dukagjini were of Albanian origin and that the tales of Norman origin were in fact made up.

Great work, Kelmendas! The tales of the Norman origin are indeed made up and we know exactly who wrote them. Gjon Muzaka who was married to Maria Dukagjini and wanted to give to his heirs more claims via a great origin story about his wife's family. The full story which Muzaka wrote in 1510 is that the Dukagjini came from Troy, went to France and then with Crusades went to the Holy Land after which two brothers on their trip back to France, settled in southern Europe. The first was the progenitor the House d'Este, dukes of Ferrara and the second was Duke Gjin, progenitor of the Dukagjini.

Muzaka wrote the story specifically - as it becomes clear when one reads the full account - because he wanted to secure a title of a minor barony in the Duchy of Ferrara, which led him to try to legitimize his claim with such stories. His account is not unusual, as there are dozens of such stories in medieval Europe.

Kelmendasi
06-06-2020, 06:26 PM
Great work, Kelmendas! The tales of the Norman origin are indeed made up and we know exactly who wrote them. Gjon Muzaka who was married to Maria Dukagjini and wanted to give to his heirs more claims via a great origin story about his wife's family. The full story which Muzaka wrote in 1510 is that the Dukagjini came from Troy, went to France and then with Crusades went to the Holy Land after which two brothers on their trip back to France, settled in southern Europe. The first was the progenitor the House d'Este, dukes of Ferrara and the second was Duke Gjin, progenitor of the Dukagjini.

Muzaka wrote the story specifically - as it becomes clear when one reads the full account - because he wanted to secure a title of a minor barony in the Duchy of Ferrara, which led him to try to legitimize his claim with such stories. His account is not unusual, as there are dozens of such story in medieval Europe.
Credit goes out to the admins of the Albanian Y-DNA project who reach out to these people for testing.

I also remember reading that the stories of origin or ancestral ties to the west were also made in order to compete with the Topia family who had ties to the House of Anjou through the marriage of Andrea Topia and one of Robert of Naples' illegitimate daughters. Though Muzaka further glorifying the story in order to increase the prestige of his children also makes sense.

I personally was expecting the Dukagjini to be R-Z2705 since this group has shown up in the village of Perlat, where one of the oldest branches of the Dukagjini resided.

Trojet
06-06-2020, 06:54 PM
Considering the region they ruled, J-PH1751, R-Z2705, or E-PH2180, would've been my top picks for the Dukagjini family. So this result does make sense.

Oreo
06-06-2020, 10:53 PM
I support the theory that Tosks had lower J2b than Ghegs even before they starting getting more input on their Y-DNA line (i.e Slavic I2a and R1a).
Do you guys support my theory?

Lek
06-07-2020, 04:32 PM
In his book Kosovo: A Short history Noel seems to argue Albanians in Kosova also grew largely from a native population. I have seen others argue this too. Also Milan Sufflay's work I think mentions this or an old Illyro-Albanian population in Kosova. Some of it was written in Serbo-Croat such as his book ''History of the Northern Albanians'' ... Can somebody that knows Serbo-Croat read the book or get it ?

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a9bb8d30e01648de6937fc38bb2930e5

Kelmendasi
06-07-2020, 08:37 PM
In his book Kosovo: A Short history Noel seems to argue Albanians in Kosova also grew largely from a native population. I have seen others argue this too. Also Milan Sufflay's work I think mentions this or an old Illyro-Albanian population in Kosova. Some of it was written in Serbo-Croat such as his book ''History of the Northern Albanians'' ... Can somebody that knows Serbo-Croat read the book or get it ?

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a9bb8d30e01648de6937fc38bb2930e5
In his essay: The north-eastern regions of the Sandjak of Dukagjin - Hass and its population during the second half of the 16th century, late Albanian historian and scholar Selami Pulaha states that Šufflay and Jireček believed that the region between the Erenik and White Drin (Drini i Bardhė) rivers had continuously been inhabited by a local Albanian population since the Middle Ages. Pulaha himself confirms this belief through the use of Ottoman records from the 15th and 16th centuries that confirm a continuous use of Albanian anthroponyms in the region, there's also the older Serbian records from the 14th century that mention Albanian katuns (shepherd settlements) in the area.

Interestingly, the prevalence of Albanian names in the northeastern areas of the Sanjak of Dukagjin (Rudina, Domeshtiē and Pashtrik) increases during the 16th century, to the point that the vast majority of the population of this region had typical Albanian names. This cannot be attributed to a mass migration of Albanians into the region, since there are no records for such an event in this time period. Pulaha attributed it to the fact that Ottoman administration and political domination diminished Serb political and religious authority and influence in the region, as a result there was no longer an obligation for local Albanian-speakers to adopt the Orthodox faith and such.

gjenetiks
06-07-2020, 08:40 PM
From what I have gathered, yes, he is a confirmed direct descendant of Ahmed Pasha and still even bears the last name Dukaginzāde.

Would be great if one of the direct descendants of Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg could also test. From what I have gathered, there are a number of Arbėreshė with the last name Castriota, though many of them are actually unrelated to the actual Kastrioti family. The family that is confirmed through documentation to be directly descended from Skanderbeg is the Castriota Scanderbeg, who from what I have gathered were spread throughout southern Italy in towns such as Lecce and Naples.

Very cool about Dukagjini.

And if I'm not mistaken I was under the impression that there was no living distant relative of Skanderbeg alive today? Though, if some descendants of Skanderbeg actually do live in Arbereshe inhabited areas of Italy, it would be super cool to test them.

gjenetiks
06-07-2020, 08:42 PM
Thoughts Albos?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaEIKvwHPJk&t=134s

Kelmendasi
06-07-2020, 09:07 PM
Very cool about Dukagjini.

And if I'm not mistaken I was under the impression that there was no living distant relative of Skanderbeg alive today? Though, if some descendants of Skanderbeg actually do live in Arbereshe inhabited areas of Italy, it would be super cool to test them.
There actually are still a couple living descendants of the Castriota Scanderbeg family, a well known member of this family is journalist Loris Castriota Scanderbeg.

I think that, when testing living descendants of noble houses or lineages, we should take into account potential non-paternity events, especially in the cases where these families have fled from their homeland and have been forced to intermingle with the local aristocracy. But in the case of the Syrian of Albanian origin that descends from the Dukagjini, the fact that he has a typical Albanian paternal lineage in my opinion confirms his genealogy.

Lek
06-08-2020, 12:49 AM
In his essay: The north-eastern regions of the Sandjak of Dukagjin - Hass and its population during the second half of the 16th century, late Albanian historian and scholar Selami Pulaha states that Šufflay and Jireček believed that the region between the Erenik and White Drin (Drini i Bardhė) rivers had continuously been inhabited by a local Albanian population since the Middle Ages. Pulaha himself confirms this belief through the use of Ottoman records from the 15th and 16th centuries that confirm a continuous use of Albanian anthroponyms in the region, there's also the older Serbian records from the 14th century that mention Albanian katuns (shepherd settlements) in the area.

Interestingly, the prevalence of Albanian names in the northeastern areas of the Sanjak of Dukagjin (Rudina, Domeshtiē and Pashtrik) increases during the 16th century, to the point that the vast majority of the population of this region had typical Albanian names. This cannot be attributed to a mass migration of Albanians into the region, since there are no records for such an event in this time period. Pulaha attributed it to the fact that Ottoman administration and political domination diminished Serb political and religious authority and influence in the region, as a result there was no longer an obligation for local Albanian-speakers to adopt the Orthodox faith and such.


It's a pity their work was written only in Serbo-Croat. I would like to get my hands on it to read. I know Hanzic also wrote some.

Sufflay has a book called ''Serbs and Albanians'' which has been translated into English which I thought of getting but I'm not sure if he talks about Kosova there. Though would still be interesting to read on what he says.

Kelmendasi
06-08-2020, 01:34 AM
It's a pity their work was written only in Serbo-Croat. I would like to get my hands on it to read. I know Hanzic also wrote some.

Sufflay has a book called ''Serbs and Albanians'' which has been translated into English which I thought of getting but I'm not sure if he talks about Kosova there. Though would still be interesting to read on what he says.
I personally think that, when it comes to the history of the Albanians as a whole during the Medieval and Ottoman periods, the older Albanian historians and scholars were among the best and most knowledgeable. These include scholars such as Selami Pulaha, Muhamet Tėrnava etc. I have been reading some of their works on the topics and so far they're very good, they debunk a lot of the nationalistic and anti-Albanian claims, such as the claim that the Albanians of Kosovo are entirely descended from migrants that arrived from North Albania between the 17th and 18th centuries. They're also generally rather unbiased.

I have Šufflay's Serbs and Albanians, and it's pretty good though there are a couple errors. For example, he claims that both the Kastrioti and Spani families are of Greek origin purely based on the etymological roots of their names, of course he disregards the fact that it was common for Albanians to take names with foreign etymologies as well as a couple of other things, such as the fact that it wasn't uncommon for noble families to have two last names (e.g. Kastrioti and Mazreku). I haven't read it in a while so I don't remember much else.

Lek
06-08-2020, 02:48 AM
I personally think that, when it comes to the history of the Albanians as a whole during the Medieval and Ottoman periods, the older Albanian historians and scholars were among the best and most knowledgeable. These include scholars such as Selami Pulaha, Muhamet Tėrnava etc. I have been reading some of their works on the topics and so far they're very good, they debunk a lot of the nationalistic and anti-Albanian claims, such as the claim that the Albanians of Kosovo are entirely descended from migrants that arrived from North Albania between the 17th and 18th centuries. They're also generally rather unbiased.

I have Šufflay's Serbs and Albanians, and it's pretty good though there are a couple errors. For example, he claims that both the Kastrioti and Spani families are of Greek origin purely based on the etymological roots of their names, of course he disregards the fact that it was common for Albanians to take names with foreign etymologies as well as a couple of other things, such as the fact that it wasn't uncommon for noble families to have two last names (e.g. Kastrioti and Mazreku). I haven't read it in a while so I don't remember much else.

Yeah, I have read a bit of Pulaha too though haven't fully gotten my hands on all of it. His work is mentioned by Ducellier in the ''Case for Kosova'' by Anna Lellio. Pulaha seems to also say that Albanians could have Slavic names and even villages with Slavic names were Albanian. His conclusion in the last part of your other post makes also sense which is what a lot of people don't get for example.

J Man
07-18-2020, 04:05 PM
In Diber is there a tribal region called Cidhen?

Johane Derite
07-18-2020, 04:13 PM
In Diber is there a tribal region called Cidhen?

In the northern part, near Kukės. It is a village

J Man
07-18-2020, 04:36 PM
In the northern part, near Kukės. It is a village

Cidhen was part of the 9 mountains of Dibra correct?

Johane Derite
07-18-2020, 04:39 PM
Cidhen was part of the 9 mountains of Dibra correct?

Correct

J Man
07-18-2020, 05:00 PM
Correct

And the village of Arras is part of the same cultural region as Cidhen correct?

Johane Derite
07-18-2020, 05:10 PM
And the village of Arras is part of the same cultural region as Cidhen correct?

Arras is less than 1km from the field of ēidhėn, so i guess so.

Kelmendasi
07-18-2020, 08:05 PM
And the village of Arras is part of the same cultural region as Cidhen correct?
Yes, Arras is a part of Ēidhėn.

The village is recorded in the Ottoman defter of the Sanjak of Dibra of 1467 as the village of Ariza. It had 5 houses and was solely inhabited by Albanians, who to me seem to have been of the Catholic faith.