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J Man
07-19-2020, 12:39 AM
Yes, Arras is a part of Ēidhėn.

The village is recorded in the Ottoman defter of the Sanjak of Dibra of 1467 as the village of Ariza. It had 5 houses and was solely inhabited by Albanians, who to me seem to have been of the Catholic faith.

Very interesting thank you very much. Do you know if the families that are currently present in Arras have been there for many centuries?

Kelmendasi
07-19-2020, 01:07 AM
Very interesting thank you very much. Do you know if the families that are currently present in Arras have been there for many centuries?
I am not too sure in regards to the village of Arras specifically, however many of the families from the region of Ēidhėn do indeed seem to be descended from the Albanians recorded in 1467.

For example, in the village of Kidhina e Sipėrme (Ēidhna e Sipėrme) a certain Tolė Gjoneshi is recorded, he was most certainly the progenitor of the Tola family who still live in the region. According to a site I have found, other families such as the Basha, Cerri, Kuta etc are also descended from this individual http://rrugaearberit.com/2018/07/07/gjurme-lashtesie-ne-cidhen/. In Setina e Poshtėme (Sina e Poshtme) a Kolė Prifti is recorded, he should be the ancestor of the Prifti family who interestingly are E-Y97307. What's also interesting is that a member of the Kastrioti family, Dimitri Kastrioti, was also recorded in this village. There are many other examples.

trdbr1234
07-20-2020, 03:08 AM
And the village of Arras is part of the same cultural region as Cidhen correct?

Cidhna is part of "9 Mountains of Dibra". Arras is within Cidhen

This is a map of the Krahinat of Dibra in Albania. Half of Dibra extends into Macedonia.

To add to Kelmendasis reply, Tola is a common surname in Diber and is found all over. It is not specific to Cidhen.

https://preview.ibb.co/jgSZok/Diber3.png

Kelmendasi
07-20-2020, 07:56 AM
. To add to Kelmendasis reply, Tola is a common surname in Diber and is found all over. It is not specific to Cidhen.

https://preview.ibb.co/jgSZok/Diber3.png
Yes, it’s a patronymic coming from the name Tolė and can be found across Albania. However, in the case of Ēidhėn, it is derived from Tolė Gjoneshi who is recorded in the region in 1467. They form a fis with a number of other families from the area and do not intermarry with them.

trdbr1234
07-22-2020, 04:22 AM
Yes, it’s a patronymic coming from the name Tolė and can be found across Albania. However, in the case of Ēidhėn, it is derived from Tolė Gjoneshi who is recorded in the region in 1467. They form a fis with a number of other families from the area and do not intermarry with them.

Well, no-one marries other families with the same surname within a close geographic region. - This statement you made is irrelevant.

Tole is common throughout Diber. There are far more in Golloborde than in Cidhen. As there are in other regions. It is a very common surname.

And of-course, generally, families that carry a common surname within a specific region are considered a fis.

Additionally, it is a huge stretch to take a first name in one of the Turkish defters and assume that is how the "fis" formed, when the name and surname is so common.

trdbr1234
07-22-2020, 04:42 AM
I have a question,

When did the -aj in Albanian surnames begin? Additionally, where does the -ku ending come from?

Some examples I've come across.

Sulku - Sulaj
Sharku/Shatku - Shatraj
Marku - Markja
Rajku

Is there any material that explains Albanian surnames and the time frames they formed?

Kelmendasi
07-22-2020, 05:33 AM
Well, no-one marries other families with the same surname within a close geographic region. - This statement you made is irrelevant.

Tole is common throughout Diber. There are far more in Golloborde than in Cidhen. As there are in other regions. It is a very common surname.

And of-course, generally, families that carry a common surname within a specific region are considered a fis.

Additionally, it is a huge stretch to take a first name in one of the Turkish defters and assume that is how the "fis" formed, when the name and surname is so common.
You misunderstand, they form a fis with families from the area that have different surnames, such as the Basha. Additionally they have no oral tradition of having come from anywhere, as well as the fact that multiple surnames found in the defter show up in Ēidhėn to this day. The link I posted before explains it in more detail.

J Man
07-22-2020, 03:18 PM
You misunderstand, they form a fis with families from the area that have different surnames, such as the Basha. Additionally they have no oral tradition of having come from anywhere, as well as the fact that multiple surnames found in the defter show up in Ēidhėn to this day. The link I posted before explains it in more detail.

Do they form a "fis" with the Cerri family?

Kelmendasi
07-22-2020, 03:34 PM
Do they form a "fis" with the Cerri family?
According to this article, http://rrugaearberit.com/2018/07/07/gjurme-lashtesie-ne-cidhen/, the Tola of Ēidhna do not intermarry with the following families: Basha, Cerri, Kuta, Hoxha, Margjoni, Manėrkolli and Spata.

trdbr1234
07-24-2020, 11:27 PM
You misunderstand, they form a fis with families from the area that have different surnames, such as the Basha. Additionally they have no oral tradition of having come from anywhere, as well as the fact that multiple surnames found in the defter show up in Ēidhėn to this day. The link I posted before explains it in more detail.

You are correct. I should have read the link first.

The reading was interesting but article falls into the same trap of other Albanian materials of forcing a narrative.

Bruzmi
07-27-2020, 03:36 PM
Hi, guys. It's been some time. Hope you're well. I wanted to get back to the testing of a Dukagjini descendant by the Gjenetika Shqiptare project as published in Testohet njė pasardhės i familjes Dukagjini (http://www.gjenetika.com/testohet-nje-pasardhes-i-familjes-dukagjini/) The person is genuinely a Dukakinzade/Dukakinoglou, a branch of the Dukagjini that remained in the Ottoman Empire, converted to Islam and became strong in the Middle East. His result (J-PH1751) further reinforces the fact that his paternal ancestor comes from an Albanian lineage. Many Dukagjinis converted and expanded elsewhere in the Balkans, but the Dukakinzade of the Middle East come from Ahmed Pasha (d. 1515) I wanted to find out from which Dukagjini in particular Ahmed Pasha descended, so I searched in Malaj (2017) The Noble Dukagjinis during the Middle Ages. Their Territories and some Characteristics (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326540508_Dukagjinet_gjate_Mesjetes_Shtrirja_gjeog rafike_e_trojeve_dhe_disa_karakteristika_The_Noble _Dukagjinis_during_the_Middle_Ages_Their_Territori es_and_some_Characteristics) who has collected the various genealogical maps. In all of them, Ahmed Pasha is actually a maternal descendant of Dukagjini from Veca (Vezza), daughter of Nikollė Dukagjini, son of Lukė, son of Pal (the same Pal who was also the father of Lekė Dukagjini (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lek%C3%AB_Dukagjini) ) . Her husband, thus the paternal ancestor of Dukakinzade is Gjergj Kuka of the Kuka fis from the village of Shebe (https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheba)in Mirdita .

He and his brother were commanders of Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg and he was executed by the Ottomans when he was captured. The fact that his son used a maternal surname may have had to do with the fact that quite a few Dukagjini were integrated in the Ottoman administration by the time he grew up and it was more prestigious to use it, but also the fact (after doing some reading on Ahmed Pasha, I find this second reason more plausible) because he didn't want to arouse suspicion because of his father's background and enmity to the Sultan. Ahmed Pasha of course became a Grand Vizier and caused a revolt against the Sultan just two months into his viziership and was executed. A very interesting figure.

I think that this is very important because what we may actually have here is a lineage that reveals not just the Y-DNA background of the Kuka fis, but that of the Kastrioti fis. The Kastrioti and the Kuka held the same family graveyard by tradition, held land side-by-side and all the historical Kuka appear as commanders of the Kastrioti. The Dukagjini regularly intermarried with the Kuka. So, the Kuka were regarded as a quite important fis. These and other historiographical aspects which are presented in detail in Studime Historike (1979, vol. 3) have led medievalist historians to consider as very likely the possibility that the Kuka are either a branch of the Kastrioti or that both are branches of the same parental fis. The most important primary source that confirms this, is a letter by John of Aragon in October 1467 after a meeting with Pjetėr Kuka and others who were delegates of Skanderbeg in his court. John of Aragon writes that these men were all of the same bloodline as Skanderbeg.

Kelmendasi
07-27-2020, 04:03 PM
Hi, guys. It's been some time. Hope you're well. I wanted to get back to the testing of a Dukagjini descendant by the Gjenetika Shqiptare project as published in Testohet njė pasardhės i familjes Dukagjini (http://www.gjenetika.com/testohet-nje-pasardhes-i-familjes-dukagjini/) The person is genuinely a Dukakinzade/Dukakinoglou, a branch of the Dukagjini that remained in the Ottoman Empire, converted to Islam and became strong in the Middle East. His result (J-PH1751) further reinforces the fact that his paternal ancestor comes from an Albanian lineage. Many Dukagjinis converted and expanded elsewhere in the Balkans, but the Dukakinzade of the Middle East come from Ahmed Pasha (d. 1515) I wanted to find out from which Dukagjini in particular Ahmed Pasha descended, so I searched in Malaj (2017) The Noble Dukagjinis during the Middle Ages. Their Territories and some Characteristics (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326540508_Dukagjinet_gjate_Mesjetes_Shtrirja_gjeog rafike_e_trojeve_dhe_disa_karakteristika_The_Noble _Dukagjinis_during_the_Middle_Ages_Their_Territori es_and_some_Characteristics) who has collected the various genealogical maps. In all of them, Ahmed Pasha is actually a maternal descendant of Dukagjini from Veca (Vezza), daughter of Nikollė Dukagjini, son of Lukė, son of Pal (the same Pal who was also the father of Lekė Dukagjini (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lek%C3%AB_Dukagjini) ) . Her husband, thus the paternal ancestor of Dukakinzade is Gjergj Kuka of the Kuka fis from the village of Shebe (https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheba)in Mirdita .

He and his brother were commanders of Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg and he was executed by the Ottomans when he was captured. The fact that his son used a maternal surname may have had to do with the fact that quite a few Dukagjini were integrated in the Ottoman administration by the time he grew up and it was more prestigious to use it, but also the fact (after doing some reading on Ahmed Pasha, I find this second reason more plausible) because he didn't want to arouse suspicion because of his father's background and enmity to the Sultan. Ahmed Pasha of course became a Grand Vizier and caused a revolt against the Sultan just two months into his viziership and was executed. A very interesting figure.

I think that this is very important because what we may actually have here is a lineage that reveals not just the Y-DNA background of the Kuka fis, but that of the Kastrioti fis. The Kastrioti and the Kuka held the same family graveyard by tradition, held land side-by-side and all the historical Kuka appear as commanders of the Kastrioti. The Dukagjini regularly intermarried with the Kuka. So, the Kuka were regarded as a quite important fis. These and other historiographical aspects which are presented in detail in Studime Historike (1979, vol. 3) have led medievalist historians to consider as very likely the possibility that the Kuka are either a branch of the Kastrioti or that both are branches of the same parental fis. The most important primary source that confirms this, is a letter by John of Aragon in October 1467 after a meeting with Pjetėr Kuka and others who were delegates of Skanderbeg in his court. John of Aragon writes that these men were all of the same bloodline as Skanderbeg.
Very interesting as always Maleschreiber! So the Dukakinzade of Aleppo and the Middle East are not paternal descendants of the Dukagjini, but rather maternal descendants. Do you know of any living branches or descendants of the family that are direct paternal descendants?

So are the Kuka from the village of Shebė in Mirdita, or was it one of the villages that they held? The Kastrioti themselves are often believed to have stemmed from the region of Mati or Dibra, though I know that some scholars have placed their origins in other regions such as Hasi and Mirdita. There is also a village by the name of Kukaj in Dibėr, which is actually just to the north of the village Kastriot.

Kelmendasi
07-27-2020, 04:39 PM
We should also try and reach out to the Taushani family of Elbasan. This family is supposedly descended from the third son of Gjergj Arianiti who converted to Islam, taking the name Mehmet Bej, and became the Sanjak-bey of Elbasan. He also became the Sanjak-bey of Vlora in 1485, with his sons later also owning lands in the south of Albania as well as in Elbasan. I believe there are Taushani in Vlorė to this day. https://elbasaniad.org/familja-taushani/. This family itself was rather influential up until the 19th century.

Gjon Muzaka does mention that one of the sons of Gjergj Arianiti did in fact convert to Islam and became "Turk", however he states that it was the second son rather than the third and that his name was "Skanderbeg" (İskender Bey).

Gheg
07-27-2020, 05:06 PM
Hi everyone,

Actually Maleschrieber Dukagin-Zade are legit Dukagjin according to Paolo Petta (an Arbereshe historian) as well as Robert Elsie. Dukagin-Zade are descended from Progon V. Dukagjini ( Progon converted to Islam as Ahmed) son of Nikolle III and grandson of Gjergj Dukagjini. Under the circumstances I'd say it doesn't get any clearer than this.

38752

Bruzmi
07-27-2020, 06:14 PM
They are descendants of Dukagjini, they just are descended maternally from them. Maternal descent is no less "legitimate" descent than paternal descent. It just doesn't pass on Y-DNA genetic data. That's all.

Robert Elsie was not a scholar of any kind and his works have many, many mistakes, so I wouldn't use him. Petta here has made a mistake by conflating two different genealogies into one. Gjergj, brother of Draga and father of Nikollė is mentioned in the genealogy constructed by Bozić in "O Dukadjinima". But in his genealogy, there is no Progon, son of Nikollė. A Progon who converted to Islam appears in a primary source by Petronio Prospero (https://www.istrapedia.hr/hr/natuknice/556/petronio-prospero) who wrote in the 17th century about the Docaini of Istria. This Progon didn't take the name Ahmed, but the name Hamza - thus was known as Progon Hamza Pasha. He was the grandson of a Nikollė and was a descendant of the Dukagjini matrilineally as his father was also a Kuka. So, even if we accepted a scenario under which Progon took the name Ahmet instead of Hamza, we would still be dealing with a matrilineal descendant of the Dukagjini and patrilineal descendant of Kuka.

Kelmendasi, yes the Kuka fis appears in nearby areas too, not just in Shebja. I think that detailed research about Kthella would give us many details. The Kukaj of Dibra are also mentioned in the connection that is established between the Kuka and the Kastrioti in Studime Historike (1979), but I don't have full access to the paper yet.

Are there any living patrilineal descendants of the Dukagjini? Given the fact that quite a few of them converted to Islam, with some research, patrilineal descendants might be found. There is also a branch in Ancona, whose tracks are lost in the 16th century, so further research there might produce some results.

UPDATE: I did some research on Petta's genealogy. It seems to be taken from Johann Samuel Ersch, Johann Gottfried Gruber: Allgemeine Encyklopädie der Wissenschaften und Künste. Erste Section A-G. Hermann Brockhaus, Leipzig 1868. Thus it's not his research. The same genealogy appears in german wikipedia: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukagjini_(Stamm)#Nachkommen Gheg, you should recheck it because it doesn't say that Nikollė III was the father of a hypothetical Progon-Ahmed Pasha, but Nikollė II. This makes a Progon-Ahmed Pasha, a rather impossible figure to have ever existed as it would mean that this person became Grand Vizier of the Ottoman Empire in his 70s or even 80s. The genealogy is also very weak in other areas too as it has a fictional Progan I, voivode of Kanina in 1368, which obviously couldn't have existed geographically because there were no Dukagjini in Kanina. Malaj doesn't mention this genealogy either, I assume for the above reasons.

Bruzmi
07-27-2020, 09:19 PM
The ultimate source of a connection between NIkollė II and the Dukaginzade (all others are variants of this source) is Karl Hopf (https://books.google.com/books?id=r2Ed60eo9-gC&pg=PA533) in the 19th century , but if you actually check his genealogical tree a) it is utterly irrational b)Hopf doesn't actually make an explicit connection with the Dukaginzade. He has made up a "Progono I, voivode of Kanina" who appears nowhere in historical documents (just like the other figure Hopf made up, Branilo). Hopf says that Pal IV, son of Nikollė (and Anna Arianiti) converted to Islam, so it would make him as Ahmed Pasha's father but a) there is no Pal IV in historical record b)according to Hopf this person was born in 1454-57. Even if he had his first child and it was a son (Ahmed) 20 years later in 1477, this would mean that Ahmed Dukaginzade who was married in 1503 (to the daughter of another Albanian general, Arvavud Sinan Pasha who was married to the daughter of Bayezid II) when he already was sanjakbey of Ankara (a very high title), had achieved all of this at the age of 26. Franz Babinger, in Das Ende des Arianiten (https://www.zobodat.at/pdf/Sitz-Ber-Akad-Muenchen-phil-hist-Kl_1960_0001-0094.pdf) (1960, p.14) writes about this scenario "Ich vermag ihn aber nicht mit Sicherheit zu bestimmen."

Of course, at the time that Hopf wrote many documents hadn't been discovered yet like Petronio Prospero's account in the 17th century. Thus, Hopf-based accounts are extremely unlikely based on primary sources and modern bibliography. Interestingly, Guy Stair Sainty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Stair_Sainty) (2019) writes (https://books.google.com/books?id=chfRDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA499)that "Nikollė II had four sons of whom the eldest, Lekė, left one son – the future Nicolņ III – and two daughters, Francesca and Maria, who settled in Italy, while a third daughter, Vezza, married Gjergj Kuka and had two sons, Ader and Mehmet Pasha who both entered the Turkish service. Pal Dukagjini's youngest son, Dhimitėr (demetrio), had two sons, Giovanni and Demetrio II (both settled in Italy), the latter leaving issue Demetrio III, father of Giovanni II, father of Bartolomeo, himself father of Paolo II, who left two sons Nicolo III and Giovanni III." (note how no Paolo/Pal IV ever appears in the account)

Based on all of the above that we have discussed so far, a patrilineal ancestry via the Kuka (and its implications with the Kastrioti) is much more likely than patrilineal descent via the Dukagjini.

Gheg
07-28-2020, 09:16 AM
I see you have researched the matter probably more than me, however the sources all seem to be XVII-th century or later. Take Musachi for example who, while disorganized, is confirmed to be accurate on many accounts and was a contemporary. There being two Dukagjin lines is clear (but possibly still related just distant). However, unless you're implying the Dukagjinis appearing with John Kastrioti are actually Kuka I do not see evidence of non- paternal descent. No "lady" or daughter of Nicholas is mentioned as being the mother of " Progan".

Musachi says:

Note also that the other Dukagjinis do not stem from the dynasty in direct lineage, but have appeared on the scene recently to their good fortune. Among them is Paul Dukagjini who appeared with Lord John, the father of Lord Scanderbeg. To this first Paul were born Nicholas Dukagjini and Lekė Dukagjini, and two brothers called George and Progan Dukagjini, who died. To their brother Lekė was born Stephen Dukagjini who is now in the Marches of Ancona. Of the said Nicholas, one child has survived called Progan, who has now turned Turk and has become the Pasha of Romania. In the Marches are the descendants of the said Stephen, i.e. Lekė and Paul Dukagjini.

If I am mixing something up feel free to show me.

Bruzmi
07-28-2020, 01:20 PM
I see you have researched the matter probably more than me, however the sources all seem to be XVII-th century or later. Take Musachi for example who, while disorganized, is confirmed to be accurate on many accounts and was a contemporary. There being two Dukagjin lines is clear (but possibly still related just distant). However, unless you're implying the Dukagjinis appearing with John Kastrioti are actually Kuka I do not see evidence of non- paternal descent. No "lady" or daughter of Nicholas is mentioned as being the mother of " Progan".

Musachi says:

Note also that the other Dukagjinis do not stem from the dynasty in direct lineage, but have appeared on the scene recently to their good fortune. Among them is Paul Dukagjini who appeared with Lord John, the father of Lord Scanderbeg. To this first Paul were born Nicholas Dukagjini and Lekė Dukagjini, and two brothers called George and Progan Dukagjini, who died. To their brother Lekė was born Stephen Dukagjini who is now in the Marches of Ancona. Of the said Nicholas, one child has survived called Progan, who has now turned Turk and has become the Pasha of Romania. In the Marches are the descendants of the said Stephen, i.e. Lekė and Paul Dukagjini.

If I am mixing something up feel free to show me.

Hopf has constructed his narrative based on this quote by Muzaka:

"The third daughter, Lady Chiranna, was married to Lord Nicholas Dukagjini. She was the only daughter among brothers, and gave birth herself to two sons. One died and the other turned Turk and became a pasha and a great commander of the sultan." He has assigned to these two the names "Draga" and "Paolo IV" and then made Paolo IV into a pasha (but doesn't specify to whom he is referring). From that bit, no conclusion about Ahmed Pasha can be made in any case.

Muzaka also mentions that "The fourth daughter [of Arianiti], Lady Helena, was married to Lord George Dukagjini, to whom many children were born and all turned Turk. One called Scanderbeg is still alive and is a sanjak bey." Thus, there were quite a few Dukagjini that became Muslim.

Muzaka though, while an interesting source, is not accurate in many ways because he tried to expand as much as possible the claims of his own family and those of his wife, who was a Dukagjini.

The Progon you are referring to couldn't have been Dukaginzade Ahmed Pasha. Progon lived in Italy until 1501, when he launched an expedition against the Ottomans in northern Albania but eventually came to terms with them, was given a part of his old lands back and was made "Pasha of Rumelia" (which Muzaka calls "Romania"): Progoni, nė vitin 1501 ėshtė kthyer nė atdhe pėr tė udhėhequr kryengritjen antiosmane qė shpėrtheu nė Shqipėrinė e Epėrme. Mė pas ai bėri marrėveshje me osmanėt dhe mori prej tyre titullin e pashait. Si edhe qeverisjen e njė pjese tė zotėrimeve tė Dukagjinėve. (Akademia e Shkencave e Shqipėrisė; K. Prifti; Xh. Gjeēovi; M. Korkuti; G. Shpuza; S. Anamali; K. Biēoku; F. Duka; S. Islami; S. Naēi; F. Prendi; S. Pulaha; P. Xhufi (2002), Historia e Popullit Shqiptar (Vėllimi I) (in Albanian), Tirana, Albania: Toena, ISBN 99927-1-622-3 )

In contrast, Dukaginzade Ahmed Pasha - who was in the Ottoman army since his youth - was sanjakbey of Ankara (a lower title, in a far away area of the empire) in 1503 when he got married with Arnavud Sinan Pasha's daughter (also the grand-daughter of the Sultan). For more details about Ahmed Pasha's ranks, check Hedda Reindl (1983), Männer um Bāyezīd : eine prosopographische Studie über die Epoche Sultan Bāyezīds II. (1481-1512) (http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/iud/content/titleinfo/318662)

A summary of the discussion from my point of view:
1)The Dukaginzade are definitely related to the Dukagjini.
2)The Dukaginzade are definitely part of Y-DNA lineage that is common in regions inhabited by Albanians.
3)The Dukaginzade are definitely part of Y-DNA lineage that is common in regions controlled by the Dukagjini.
4)There were male Dukagjini who became Muslim.
5)There is no primary source that links any Ahmed Pasha Dukaginzade or his son Mehmet Pasha to a particular Muslim Dukagjini.
6)The only reference in primary sources that we have provides a possible link to Mehmet Pasha, son of Ahmed via the marriage of Veca Dukagjini to Gjergj Kuka. Other Muslim Dukagjini are also patrilineally descendants of the Kuka fis, which is probably linked to the Kastrioti fis.
7)Based on the above, if we base our estimations on the existing genealogical material (which of course is still very scarce), it is somewhat more likely that the Dukaginzade are descendants of the Kuka patrilineally (and Dukagjini matrilineally) and somewhat less likely to come from the Dukagjini patrilineally. This of course requires further research ( in order to find other Dukagjini descendants or to do aDNA testing). If true, it would also give us much more insight about the Kastrioti. If not, further research would provide information for the Dukagjini branches and the spread of J2b via this fis.

Gheg
07-29-2020, 01:09 PM
Muzaka ( while we do notice bias) is quite accurate according to Malcolm. I do agree "Progan" could have been someone else.

I disagree with your opinion however. Precisely because there were so many Dukagjinis that converted it would be a stretch to claim Dukagin-zade weren't Dukagjin by paternal descent. Dukagin-zade could be descended from any one of those converted. But the fact they are legit Dukagjin by paternal descent at this point is quite certain and that reason lies in their name itself.

I don't see any evidence Ahmed Pasha son of Vezza had any link to the Dukagin-zade. The name Ahmed is/was as common as John.

The strongest evidence here is in the "Zade" part of their name. If they weren't legit Dukagjin by paternal descent, why would the ottomans assign "zade" to them which means exactly "descendant in the male line"?

Dukagjini were probably PH1751 after all. Some aDna would have been best but perhaps in the future.

Thank you for your information btw. Would be interesting to try and find legit Kukas to test.

Archetype0ne
07-29-2020, 01:16 PM
Personally I find all this very interesting, whether it is a male line descendant of Dukagjini or of Kuka.
Albeit I have my reservations relating to both.
For one how do we know Kuka and Kastrioti had the same YDNA, for the other as you guys extensively debated there is uncertainty whether we are dealing with Kuka or Dukagjini male line.
One thing is for certain that haplo is pretty consistent with an Albanian male line... and whether it is Dukagjini, Kuka and/or Kastrioti the results are very welcome.
I look forward to a future where more descendants of historical figures of prominent Albanian male lines are tested... this all is very interesting and welcome.

Kelmendasi
07-29-2020, 01:38 PM
Personally I find all this very interesting, whether it is a male line descendant of Dukagjini or of Kuka.
Albeit I have my reservations relating to both.
For one how do we know Kuka and Kastrioti had the same YDNA, for the other as you guys extensively debated there is uncertainty whether we are dealing with Kuka or Dukagjini male line.
One thing is for certain that haplo is pretty consistent with an Albanian male line... and whether it is Dukagjini, Kuka and/or Kastrioti the results are very welcome.
I look forward to a future where more descendants of historical figures of prominent Albanian male lines are tested... this all is very interesting and welcome.
The belief that both the Kuka and Kastrioti fise share the same paternal origin is based on some historical facts. As Maleschreiber mentioned, both families held the same burial lands, and in 1467 John of Aragon states that Pjetėr Kuka and a couple of other Albanian nobles were of the same bloodline as Skanderbeg.

Though I personally think we do need more evidence suggesting that they did indeed descend from the same paternal ancestor.

Archetype0ne
07-29-2020, 04:26 PM
The belief that both the Kuka and Kastrioti fise share the same paternal origin is based on some historical facts. As Maleschreiber mentioned, both families held the same burial lands, and in 1467 John of Aragon states that Pjetėr Kuka and a couple of other Albanian nobles were of the same bloodline as Skanderbeg.

Though I personally think we do need more evidence suggesting that they did indeed descend from the same paternal ancestor.

Interesting. For some reason my paternal family still has this tradition, going back at least till we immigrated to North Macedonia due to blood feuds (~7-8 Generations, ~200 Years). Where some of our land was made into a cemetery for the family and from what I know only our bloodline is buried in this cemetery (exception being brides married to this family).
Is this a common occurrence or tradition where members of the same bloodline are buried in exclusive cemeteries among Albanians?

Furthermore have we tested any Kukas if they still survive to see if they have the same L283 terminal SNP? PH17-- ? That could lend credibility to the whole thing. That and testing other Dukagjinis to see what their paternal YDNA is...

Also does the Kuka- Kastrioti cemetery still survive? Maybe testing there can lay this dilemma to rest...

Kelmendasi
07-29-2020, 06:55 PM
Interesting. For some reason my paternal family still has this tradition, going back at least till we immigrated to North Macedonia due to blood feuds (~7-8 Generations, ~200 Years). Where some of our land was made into a cemetery for the family and from what I know only our bloodline is buried in this cemetery (exception being brides married to this family).
Is this a common occurrence or tradition where members of the same bloodline are buried in exclusive cemeteries among Albanians?

Furthermore have we tested any Kukas if they still survive to see if they have the same L283 terminal SNP? PH17-- ? That could lend credibility to the whole thing. That and testing other Dukagjinis to see what their paternal YDNA is...

Also does the Kuka- Kastrioti cemetery still survive? Maybe testing there can lay this dilemma to rest...
I do know that it's common for families or blood-relatives to bury their dead close to each other, even to this day. I would think that it was common back then as well.

By the way, where in Albania does your paternal side originally come from?

I do not think any member of the Kuka that we know of has tested.

Archetype0ne
07-29-2020, 07:43 PM
I do know that it's common for families or blood-relatives to bury their dead close to each other, even to this day. I would think that it was common back then as well.

By the way, where in Albania does your paternal side originally come from?

I do not think any member of the Kuka that we know of has tested.

Peladhi near Bulqize. But I was talking about our cemetery in North Macedonia... Although, most likely this tradition stems back from before we migrated.

I asked some members of my family and there are quite a lot of Kukas alive today especially in Albania. There are even two Kuka families from the village my father comes from... I am inclined to test them. Not sure if its worth it though... as Kukas might be different bloodlines from each other, who knows.

Kelmendasi
07-29-2020, 08:25 PM
Peladhi near Bulqize. But I was talking about our cemetery in North Macedonia... Although, most likely this tradition stems back from before we migrated.

I asked some members of my family and there are quite a lot of Kukas alive today especially in Albania. There are even two Kuka families from the village my father comes from... I am inclined to test them. Not sure if its worth it though... as Kukas might be different bloodlines from each other, who knows.
Interesting, I think it's worth reaching out to them to test. If they hail from the area around Dibra, Mati or Mirdita there's a chance that they are related to the Medieval Kuka who also occupied that region.

Bruzmi
07-30-2020, 04:51 PM
The Kuka of Shebe are according to tradition of the same branch as the Kuka of Rremull (Mat) who still live there. Further research also shows that there are quite a few male Muslim Dukagjini who are unknown. I found a reference to a Mustafa Dukagin, but I haven't had the time to search for more details. Regardless of whether the Dukaginzadeler come from Dukagjini that hasn't come up in research so far or the Kuka or a known Dukagjini who has been misrecorded in the archives, this whole discussion shows that genomics are a driving force for historical research. Exactly because we have a proper Y-DNA result that verified the Dukaginzade as part of an Albanian lineage, we are now able to move research many steps further and seek new pathways.

It also reveals the need for interdisciplinary and collective research, as the spatial scale of sampling that needs to be done is large and then the results have to be analyzed in multiple fields. As has been written in "The Impact of Ancient Genome Studies in Archaeology" (2020) https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-anthro-010220-074353 :

"Indeed, the recent research on social structure and culture change summarized in this review provides examples of productive collaborations between archaeologists and genomicists. However, these studies highlight extremely high-end projects rather than the mainstream. Thus, one potential challenge to the interdisciplinarity from the archaeological perspective is to be able to recognize that the finances, labor distributions, authorship, and ownership in archaeogenomic studies are drastically different from more traditional archaeological research. For example, it is important to accept that ancient genomics work will be funded by agencies that are not anthropologically
oriented, will produce papers with dozens of authors, and may require a different mindset concerning promotion, recognition, and regulation of individual researchers in anthropology departments. In spite of these challenges, it is vital to include programs to train anthropologists in the study and interpretation of genomic data. Such programs are sorely missing in most anthropology departments. The inability of anthropologists to analyze and assess genomic data firsthand remains one of the major bottlenecks in proper collaborations in archaeogenomics research and also prevents unique perspectives from archaeology to further the field in novel and exciting directions.

The third bias in archaeogenomics is a broader concern that affects social sciences in general. There is variation in how people view their histories and identities and the degree to which genetic ancestry poses a valid or valuable form of information. The results of archaeogenomics research can be interpreted in various ways, which can be socially and politically charged. The questions that are meaningful for a researcher in a US academic institution may be irrelevant to other perspectives, especially those of indigenous peoples (Guglielmi 2019). The San people of Africa, for example, have long been a population of interest to anthropologists because they represent a group that diverged from other African groups tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of years before present (Campbell & Tishkoff 2008, Mallick et al. 2016, Tishkoff et al. 2009). However, for many San people themselves, this outgroup status seems absurd."

daihatsu
09-14-2020, 10:22 PM
Good evening!

First of all I would like to introduce myself a little. I am adopted and I already know my biological mother. My biological father is not known.. Since I live, I always wanted to know my ancestry/roots. It feels like a gap that I do not have this information.

I have tested at Consanguinitas in The Netherlands, but I feel not happy about my results. I mean, it was kind of expensive and I only got a very basic test. I want to do further testing, but I would like to know if my results can say something about my subclade or countries of origin.

I have a strong feeling towards Balkan, mostly Albania.

My question...is there somebody who can give me some details based on the information I have? Or is there a subclade calculator which can be useful?

My Haplogroup is R1B. Below are my results:
DYS456= 15
DYS389I=13
DYS390= 25
DYS389II= 29
DYS458= 16
DYS19= 14
DYS385= 12, 14
DYS393= 13
DYS391= 10
DYS439= 13
DYS635= 24
DYS392= 13
YGATAH4= 11
DYS437= 15
DYS438= 12
DYS448= 18

I also got this information, but I'm not sure if it's reliable:
R1b-L21 North Atlantic 48.3%
R1b P312/S116* WesternEuropean 21.7%
R1b DF27/S250 Ibero-Atlantic 16%
R1b U152/S28 Italo-Gaulish 10.1%
R1b U106/S21 Proto-Germanic 2.3%
R1b Z2103>L584 1.3%
R1b Z2103>Z2106 0.3%

Please help me with this issue.

Thank you very much in advance for your effort and replies!

daihatsu
09-16-2020, 05:29 PM
Anyone please?

Hawk
09-17-2020, 12:44 PM
I am not too much into this convention of codes but those percentages probably point to probability of you being in a certain R1b subclade, and apparently you have higher chances of being of the North Atlantic variant which has nothing to do with Albanian R1b which is Yamnaya derived.

daihatsu
09-20-2020, 01:15 AM
I am not too much into this convention of codes but those percentages probably point to probability of you being in a certain R1b subclade, and apparently you have higher chances of being of the North Atlantic variant which has nothing to do with Albanian R1b which is Yamnaya derived.

Thank you very much for your reply! My values differ from Noth Atlantic. I know Albanian dny excists of Spanish, Italian and Western. I also try to find data to compare my results wuth, but so far no luck.

I hope for more reactions!

broder
09-20-2020, 04:37 AM
Good evening!

First of all I would like to introduce myself a little. I am adopted and I already know my biological mother. My biological father is not known.. Since I live, I always wanted to know my ancestry/roots. It feels like a gap that I do not have this information.

I have tested at Consanguinitas in The Netherlands, but I feel not happy about my results. I mean, it was kind of expensive and I only got a very basic test. I want to do further testing, but I would like to know if my results can say something about my subclade or countries of origin.

I have a strong feeling towards Balkan, mostly Albania.

My question...is there somebody who can give me some details based on the information I have? Or is there a subclade calculator which can be useful?

My Haplogroup is R1B. Below are my results:
DYS456= 15
DYS389I=13
DYS390= 25
DYS389II= 29
DYS458= 16
DYS19= 14
DYS385= 12, 14
DYS393= 13
DYS391= 10
DYS439= 13
DYS635= 24
DYS392= 13
YGATAH4= 11
DYS437= 15
DYS438= 12
DYS448= 18

I also got this information, but I'm not sure if it's reliable:
R1b-L21 North Atlantic 48.3%
R1b P312/S116* WesternEuropean 21.7%
R1b DF27/S250 Ibero-Atlantic 16%
R1b U152/S28 Italo-Gaulish 10.1%
R1b U106/S21 Proto-Germanic 2.3%
R1b Z2103>L584 1.3%
R1b Z2103>Z2106 0.3%

Please help me with this issue.

Thank you very much in advance for your effort and replies!

You need to upgrade if you want to actually find real matches. That res is too low to make any sense out of it.

Boletin
09-25-2020, 02:00 AM
I believe that "Vlach" in this context is used as an umbrella term for the Latin-speaking populace of the Balkans, regardless if they were Dalmatian-speakers from the western Balkans or Eastern Romance-speakers from the central and eastern Balkans.

Should be noted that the Eastern Romance-speaking groups of today, so the Aromanians, Romanians etc, who are referred to as "Vlachs", actually diverged from the same ancestor (Proto-Romanian) sometime during the Migration Period or a little earlier. So in essence they split from the same ancestral population. It's also very likely that they assimilated or picked up different groups along the way.

Eastern Romance speaking doesn't necessarily mainly refer to the eastern Balkans. It's also known as Inland Latin which was spoken more inland in the central Balkans, whereas Western Romance refers mainly to Latin spoken in coastal areas.

Vlach as far as I know is a term used originally for proto-Romanians and Aromanians and indeed they diverged from a group of people somewhere in the ninth or tenth century.

Bruzmi
09-28-2020, 04:22 PM
Just a quick recap of a very long and ultimately very satisfying journey:
2)The genealogical mapping and bibliography that we have related to the Dukagjini come from primary sources which have been transcribed in all the wrong ways and then imbued with material that never comes up in contemporary sources as a means to solve the inconsistencies which were produced by false transcription.
3)In turn, that made it impossible to establish a coherent ancestry of Dukaginzade based on secondary bibliography. In that framework, descent from "unknown" Dukagjini or a matrilineal Dukagjini/patrilineal Kuka descent were somewhat more reasonable scenarios.
4)Primary accounts, however, reveal a very different picture.
5)There's no need to get into convoluted details so here's the end result: Dukaginzade Ahmed Pasha is a direct descendant of Pal Dukagjini. That is verifiable in the primary, contemporary, reliable sources of the 16th century without a shred of doubt.

Kelmendasi
10-30-2020, 04:41 PM
An article (http://rrenjet.com/golloborda/) on the ethnographic region of Golloborda in eastern Albania has been posted on the Rrėnjėt DNA Project website, written by one of the admins, Alban. Golloborda is a region that is comprised of both exclusively Albanian-speaking villages and bilingual villages that speak both Albanian and a Bulgaro-Macedonian dialect. A total of 33 samples have been gathered from this region, with 18 of those coming from the bilingual villages and the remaining 15 from the exclusively Albanian-speaking villages. The results are rather interesting.

From the results that have been gathered it seems that in the Albanian-speaking villages there is a dominance of E-V13 (~33.3%), whilst in the bilingual villages J2b-L283 dominates (~38.9%). Interestingly, E-V13 has a rather minor presence in the bilingual villages, reaching only ~5.6%. The second most dominant haplogroups among them being R1a-M417 and I2a-Y3120 (both at ~16.7%).

The second most dominant group among the Albanian villages so far seems to be R1a-M417 at ~26.7%, with the vast majority of it being comprised by the R-Y133383 cluster which is centred around the village of Okshtun. However it should be noted that in the Albanian-speaking villages there is an absence of I2a-Y3120. J2b-L283 surprisingly only makes up ~13.3%. J2b-Y23094 and J2b-Y21878 dominate the L283 clusters in the region.

Interestingly, R1b-Z2705 has yet to be found in the area. The only cluster under R1b-M269 to have been found so far is R1b-FGC40202 which is also found across Albanian-speaking regions. Personally however I do think R1b-Z2705 will for sure show up once more are tested.

As a whole, clusters that can be linked to the expansion of the Slavs make up ~30.3% of all haplogroups which is slightly more elevated when compared to some other regions in Albania, however it is still lower than some of the regions in southeastern Albania which can go up to ~35%. These clusters make up 26.7% of the clusters in the Albanian-speaking villages and ~33.4% in the bilingual villages.

eastara
10-31-2020, 02:11 AM
An article (http://rrenjet.com/golloborda/) on the ethnographic region of Golloborda in eastern Albania has been posted on the Rrėnjėt DNA Project website, written by one of the admins, Alban. Golloborda is a region that is comprised of both exclusively Albanian-speaking villages and bilingual villages that speak both Albanian and a Bulgaro-Macedonian dialect. A total of 33 samples have been gathered from this region, with 18 of those coming from the bilingual villages and the remaining 15 from the exclusively Albanian-speaking villages. The results are rather interesting.

From the results that have been gathered it seems that in the Albanian-speaking villages there is a dominance of E-V13 (~33.3%), whilst in the bilingual villages J2b-L283 dominates (~38.9%). Interestingly, E-V13 has a rather minor presence in the bilingual villages, reaching only ~5.6%. The second most dominant haplogroups among them being R1a-M417 and I2a-Y3120 (both at ~16.7%).

The second most dominant group among the Albanian villages so far seems to be R1a-M417 at ~26.7%, with the vast majority of it being comprised by the R-Y133383 cluster which is centred around the village of Okshtun. However it should be noted that in the Albanian-speaking villages there is an absence of I2a-Y3120. J2b-L283 surprisingly only makes up ~13.3%. J2b-Y23094 and J2b-Y21878 dominate the L283 clusters in the region.

Interestingly, R1b-Z2705 has yet to be found in the area. The only cluster under R1b-M269 to have been found so far is R1b-FGC40202 which is also found across Albanian-speaking regions. Personally however I do think R1b-Z2705 will for sure show up once more are tested.

As a whole, clusters that can be linked to the expansion of the Slavs make up ~30.3% of all haplogroups which is slightly more elevated when compared to some other regions in Albania, however it is still lower than some of the regions in southeastern Albania which can go up to ~35%. These clusters make up 26.7% of the clusters in the Albanian-speaking villages and ~33.4% in the bilingual villages.

Thank you, unfortunately the Rrėnjėt DNA Project is closed, but I managed to read the article with Google translate. In fact we have one person from a Bulgarian village in Trebisht in the Bulgarian DNA project with a Big Y, proven J2b2-BY87493, suppose the others are from the same branch, which is not directly shared with other ethnic Albanians under BY87493.
However, I am surprised to see E1a-M132 among Albanians, as far as I know this is an African branch. Has someone from the Albanian project been tested deeper with it?

Kelmendasi
10-31-2020, 02:39 AM
Thank you, unfortunately the Rrėnjėt DNA Project is closed, but I managed to read the article with Google translate. In fact we have one person from a Bulgarian village in Trebisht in the Bulgarian DNA project with a Big Y, proven J2b2-BY87493, suppose the others are from the same branch, which is not directly shared with other ethnic Albanians under BY87493.
However, I am surprised to see E1a-M132 among Albanians, as far as I know this is an African branch. Has someone from the Albanian project been tested deeper with it?
Yes, I believe he is the J2b-Y82978* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y82978/) sample on Yfull that has put up the Bulgarian flag. From what I have understood, there are in fact other Y82978+ samples from different regions of Dibra (e.g. Lura and Bulqiza) however they have not done further testing so it's difficult to say how close they are. We know that the J2b-Y82978>CTS8786+ Albanians from Shkreli share a TMRCA of ~1,500 ybp with him. By the way, do you know if his family have oral traditions of origin from elsewhere? I ask because there is a family from Trebisht-Balaj with the same last name that supposedly trace their origin to Lura in northwestern Dibra.

As for E1a-M132, it is indeed very interesting. So far I have come across 3 other Albanians with this haplogroup, but unfortunately they have not done any further testing so it's hard to say how and when this branch arrived.

eastara
10-31-2020, 06:32 AM
Yes, this is YF08113 at YFULL and kit#306834 at FTDNA. I can see the block tree and he is on a separate branch as BY87493* with 7 private SNPs, While 2 Albanians an 2 Bohsniaks are under CTS8786. They have probably separated not so recently. This is a sponsored kit and I don't know anything about his pedigree.

Regarding E1a-M132, it is mentioned it was found in Europe also in Sothern and even North Eastern Italy.
E-M132 is found most often in West Africa, and today it is especially common in the region of Mali. One study has found haplogroup E-M132 Y-chromosomes in as much as 34% (15/44) of a sample of Malian men, including 2/44 E-M44 and 13/44 E-M33/M132(xE-M44).[6] In particular, the Dogon people of Mali have been found to carry haplogroup E-M132 with a frequency as high as 45.5% (25/55). This makes it perhaps the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in this population, though haplogroup E-P1 appears to be almost equally frequent among the Dogon (24/55 = 43.6%).[3] Another study has found haplogroup E-M132 in 15.6% (44/282) of a pool of seven samples of various ethnic groups in Guinea-Bissau.[4] Haplogroup E-M132 also has been found in samples obtained from Moroccan Berbers, Sahrawis, Burkina Faso (including E-M33/M132(xE-M44) in 2/20 = 10% Fulbe and 2/37 = 5.4% Rimaibe[2]), northern Cameroon (including E-M44 in 9/17 = 53% Fulbe and E-M33/M132(xE-M44) in 3/15 = 20% Tali[2]), Senegal (7/139 = 5.0%[7]), Ghana (1/29 = 3% Ga, 1/32 = 3% Fante[3]), Sudan (including 5/32 = 15.6% Hausa and 3/26 = 11.5% Fulani[5]), Egypt (1%[3]-1.4%[8]) Calabria (including both Italian and Albanian inhabitants of the region), 1 Italian (from 67 tested) from Trentino in northeastern Italy,[9] and Romanians from Constanţa.

Suddenly it occurred to me that this solves the mystery of the 0.5 % Bulgarians found with the mysterious haplogroup E1-M96(xM35,xM2) in the Karachanak Y haplogroup study about 808 Bulgarians. Most of them are from Varna region and this is another '+' to my theory, that the Bulgarians, Gagauz and Albanians who migrated from Varna region to Moldova came initially from the SouthWest Balkans. The Romanian from Constanta could be from the Aromanian Vlachs who settled there in 19th c.

Kelmendasi
10-31-2020, 04:35 PM
Yes, this is YF08113 at YFULL and kit#306834 at FTDNA. I can see the block tree and he is on a separate branch as BY87493* with 7 private SNPs, While 2 Albanians an 2 Bohsniaks are under CTS8786. They have probably separated not so recently. This is a sponsored kit and I don't know anything about his pedigree.

Regarding E1a-M132, it is mentioned it was found in Europe also in Sothern and even North Eastern Italy.
E-M132 is found most often in West Africa, and today it is especially common in the region of Mali. One study has found haplogroup E-M132 Y-chromosomes in as much as 34% (15/44) of a sample of Malian men, including 2/44 E-M44 and 13/44 E-M33/M132(xE-M44).[6] In particular, the Dogon people of Mali have been found to carry haplogroup E-M132 with a frequency as high as 45.5% (25/55). This makes it perhaps the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in this population, though haplogroup E-P1 appears to be almost equally frequent among the Dogon (24/55 = 43.6%).[3] Another study has found haplogroup E-M132 in 15.6% (44/282) of a pool of seven samples of various ethnic groups in Guinea-Bissau.[4] Haplogroup E-M132 also has been found in samples obtained from Moroccan Berbers, Sahrawis, Burkina Faso (including E-M33/M132(xE-M44) in 2/20 = 10% Fulbe and 2/37 = 5.4% Rimaibe[2]), northern Cameroon (including E-M44 in 9/17 = 53% Fulbe and E-M33/M132(xE-M44) in 3/15 = 20% Tali[2]), Senegal (7/139 = 5.0%[7]), Ghana (1/29 = 3% Ga, 1/32 = 3% Fante[3]), Sudan (including 5/32 = 15.6% Hausa and 3/26 = 11.5% Fulani[5]), Egypt (1%[3]-1.4%[8]) Calabria (including both Italian and Albanian inhabitants of the region), 1 Italian (from 67 tested) from Trentino in northeastern Italy,[9] and Romanians from Constanţa.

Suddenly it occurred to me that this solves the mystery of the 0.5 % Bulgarians found with the mysterious haplogroup E1-M96(xM35,xM2) in the Karachanak Y haplogroup study about 808 Bulgarians. Most of them are from Varna region and this is another '+' to my theory, that the Bulgarians, Gagauz and Albanians who migrated from Varna region to Moldova came initially from the SouthWest Balkans. The Romanian from Constanta could be from the Aromanian Vlachs who settled there in 19th c.
The two Bosniaks are in fact from Sandžak (Škrijelje, Tutin) and trace their origin back to the Shkreli tribe, so they are of recent Albanian origin. They moved from Shkrel in Malėsi to Rugova in Kosovo, and from there into Sandžak.

The presence of E1a-M132 in the Balkans really is interesting, at least one of them should do further testing so that we can get a better idea as to how this branch arrived.

broder
10-31-2020, 08:18 PM
Interesting detail I encountered while researching one of the Dibra Ottoman registers that may be relevant to one of the R1a clusters there. In Okshtun, Todec Strumac (Strumaha) is registered. The rest of the names are heavy Slavic too but Strumac/Strumaha is interesting because there was such a Slavic tribe: Strumljani - and they were one of the tribes that did inhabit Macedonia along with Berziti, Brsjaci, Draguvites etc.

So perhaps they were the tribe that brought the Y133383 cluster to Gollobord?


https://sh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strumljani

eastara
10-31-2020, 11:20 PM
The presence of E1a-M132 in the Balkans really is interesting, at least one of them should do further testing so that we can get a better idea as to how this branch arrived.

There is a E1a-(M33, M132) project and I see one Abdullah Koc from Turkey, could he be with Albanian origin? He is assigned to the branch E-BY183919, which he shares with a person from Morocco, on a parallel branch are a German and a Swiss. This branch is rarer than the other found in Europe, including a Jewish branch. On YFULL the tree is not so developed, he must be under Y63256.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y63256/

Is it possible to compare STR to the Albanians?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/HaplogroupE1andE?iframe=yresults

Kelmendasi
11-01-2020, 12:57 AM
There is a E1a-(M33, M132) project and I see one Abdullah Koc from Turkey, could he be with Albanian origin? He is assigned to the branch E-BY183919, which he shares with a person from Morocco, on a parallel branch are a German and a Swiss. This branch is rarer than the other found in Europe, including a Jewish branch. On YFULL the tree is not so developed, he must be under Y63256.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y63256/

Is it possible to compare STR to the Albanians?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/HaplogroupE1andE?iframe=yresults
I'll try look into it.

I matched an E1a-M132 Albanian from the town of Burrel in Mati on 23andme, he was assigned to E-M132>CTS736 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS736/). On Yfull, this cluster's main downstream is CTS736>Y125757, which itself has two downstreams; CTS4038 and Z5992. CTS4038 is represented by an Arab from the city of Medina and a Yoruba from Nigeria, they share a TMRCA of ~4,600 ybp. Z5992 is represented by two samples from the island of Barbados, and are bound to be of African background.

I see on FTDNA that there are CTS736+ samples also from Algeria and the United States, with the latter seemingly being made up of African Americans.

broder
11-01-2020, 10:48 PM
All we know with certainty is it moved from around Central & Central East Europe sometime between late antiquity and the early medieval. The problem is there is no one that matches this cluster outside of Albanians. Even in the Macedonia study which had a good amount of L1029 did not match the cluster outside of an Albanian from the same study. So, until some neighboring samples are found bridging the gap between L1029 and Y133383 to give us an idea of migration patterns, everything else is guesswork. Graves from the period in question would be helpful if something turned up. Also, not sure why you're going to the Strumjani who were in Eastern Macedonia and Bulgaria and no where near Albania. If it were Slavic tribes, there are plenty that settled and situated between West Macedonia/Albania that would be far more likely in the event that were the case. Still just guesswork at this point.

It's hard to say based on the scientific studies if any of those samples are within your cluster considering the low resolution. The marker that distinguishes you guys is not that stable of a marker and it's only one mutation that back mutated, that could have occured only after it got to Albania. There is a match from Eastern Ukraine btw, in Netea 2012 study - matches some of you perfectly on those limited markers. Also hard to say if there is any matches in the Serbian project, one of the biggest in the region, because they mostly test in Belgrade.


I mentioned Strumljani because of the family name recorded there, which makes sense.

hartaisarlag
11-01-2020, 10:54 PM
Anyone have any intel on the Kosovar who just showed up at E-Y4972* on FTDNA's tree?

eastara
11-03-2020, 10:02 AM
I'll try look into it.

I matched an E1a-M132 Albanian from the town of Burrel in Mati on 23andme, he was assigned to E-M132>CTS736 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS736/). On Yfull, this cluster's main downstream is CTS736>Y125757, which itself has two downstreams; CTS4038 and Z5992. CTS4038 is represented by an Arab from the city of Medina and a Yoruba from Nigeria, they share a TMRCA of ~4,600 ybp. Z5992 is represented by two samples from the island of Barbados, and are bound to be of African background.

I see on FTDNA that there are CTS736+ samples also from Algeria and the United States, with the latter seemingly being made up of African Americans.

The picture gets more and more interesting, it seems one sample E1a2a1b1-L133 was found in the Koban culture - Iron age North Caucasus. It is mentioned even it is common for Iron Age Europe! I don't recollect any old E1a found in Europe, except being a mistake.
https://www.academia.edu/42778857/Mitochondrial_and_Y_chromosome_diversity_of_the_pr ehistoric_Koban_culture_of_the_North_Caucasus

Rrenjet.
11-06-2020, 09:03 PM
Suddenly it occurred to me that this solves the mystery of the 0.5 % Bulgarians found with the mysterious haplogroup E1-M96(xM35,xM2) in the Karachanak Y haplogroup study about 808 Bulgarians.

The E-M132 cluster is in fact quite interesting. Until now we have found it once in Golloborde (3% of our current sample of 33), three times further north-west in Bulqize, and once in the lowlands near Kruje, so it has a southern Gheg distribution. One of them has taken a high resolution test: he is under E-M132>L133>CTS736, but did not purchase YFull analysis. The STR diversity suggests this cluster started spreading in the Middle Ages, but at least one more high resolution test is needed to know for sure. I checked an E-M96 Bulgarian from Varna, and he is certainly not near the Albanian E-M132 cluster (he has DYS437=14, this cluster has DYS437=17 or 18, and there are many other differences). Neither is any of the haplotypes in E1a project.


I matched an E1a-M132 Albanian from the town of Burrel in Mati on 23andme, he was assigned to E-M132>CTS736 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS736/)

Thank you for mentioning, this re-affirms the southern Gheg spread.


Interestingly, R1b-Z2705 has yet to be found in the area. The only cluster under R1b-M269 to have been found so far is R1b-FGC40202 which is also found across Albanian-speaking regions. Personally however I do think R1b-Z2705 will for sure show up once more are tested.

I agree, it might appear soon, and we do have one R-Z2705>BY182782 member from Kumanove who should be originally from Zabzun. But it will most likely remain in atypically low frequency.

eastara
11-07-2020, 10:15 AM
The E-M132 cluster is in fact quite interesting. Until now we have found it once in Golloborde (3% of our current sample of 33), three times further north-west in Bulqize, and once in the lowlands near Kruje, so it has a southern Gheg distribution. One of them has taken a high resolution test: he is under E-M132>L133>CTS736, but did not purchase YFull analysis. The STR diversity suggests this cluster started spreading in the Middle Ages, but at least one more high resolution test is needed to know for sure. I checked an E-M96 Bulgarian from Varna, and he is certainly not near the Albanian E-M132 cluster (he has DYS437=14, this cluster has DYS437=17 or 18, and there are many other differences). Neither is any of the haplotypes in E1a project.



Thank you for mentioning, this re-affirms the southern Gheg spread.



I agree, it might appear soon, and we do have one R-Z2705>BY182782 member from Kumanove who should be originally from Zabzun. But it will most likely remain in atypically low frequency.

Thank you, I have overlooked that there is one STR for the Bulgarian E-M96(xM2, M35) in Karachanak study. However, when I enter this in Nevgen, it gives me 91.62% chance, that this is E-V22. As DYS390 = 24 this could hardly be M132.
There are somewhat similar haplotypes E2-M75, but I suspect this is some kind of mix up. I have found, that one obvious E-V13 haplotype was listed as R1b-L23, which probably made the calculation of this haplogroup to be so ancient.

broder
11-14-2020, 12:14 AM
My family wasn't in Okshtun at the time of that defter. Struma also means river if im not mistaken. Maybe Easteara can chime in on the words meaning. Doesnt have to be connected to a tribe.

Additionally, that sample you reference, including samples from a Bulgaria study(2013?) and North Croatia study(2017?) and even some of the Albanian samples from the different studies all lack DYS464, which is one of the defining STR markers of L1029. It remains to be seen if they're even in L1029. Though they are definitely R1a by the limited STRs.

Finding other samples in the Balkans who bridge the gap between L1029 and this cluster will be no surprise. Its to be expected. It did arrive between late antiquity and early medieval after all.

All you're doing is guessing. I know exactly who you are. By the way, Stafa is firmly within Y133383, looks like we were both wrong. :-)

How do you know they weren't in Okshtun? Struma literally translates into 'current', so it's wasn't a common name. Most likely people that carried such a family name belonged to the Strumljani tribe that came from the Silesia region of Poland.

It's a good guess nonetheless ☺️

broder
11-14-2020, 11:55 PM
Man do you have anything better to do? Hop off already. You're just being petty at this point. Worry about your own family history.

Just accept it and be done with it. You have littered this thread with inconsistent irrelevant walls of text.

If you're not aware, besides the other evidence I brought forth, for example Filipovic in 1940s recorded that Okshtun was Christian just 80 years ago. Meaning orthodox, around 1860s. And says based on the evidence he got, toponomy and family names, they were Slavs that converted and assimilated. He even recorded specific families like Matevci and Smilovci that moved from there to Diber as Christians before the village converted. He lists the patron saint too and the ruins of the church that are just in the outskirts of the village dedicated to Sveti Petka (Shen Premta).

Don't shoot the messenger, I am just interpreting what's in front of me..

Zanatis
11-19-2020, 02:58 AM
I aint no historian but I knew Okshtun as a former Slavic settlement that got fully Albanized.

trdbr1234
11-19-2020, 06:44 AM
I aint no historian but I knew Okshtun as a former Slavic settlement that got fully Albanized.

How do you figure that?

Okshtun village (Madh and Vogel) is named after the river it sits on, Okshtun river. This is probably where the Strumljani name comes from as well.

Zanatis
11-20-2020, 01:51 AM
The high incidence of R1a is in itself a clear indication of intrusion, so there’s that.

It is not a coincidence that R1a reaches its peak in Central-East and South-East Albania. The areas around Dibra and Korca had early Slavic input.

Zanatis
11-20-2020, 10:37 PM
Dibra Cluster has a TMRCA in Albanians thats about 1000-1200 years. The most basal and distant matches are from Kruja(origin Diber Madhe), Upper Reka(Verbjan), and Kercove(with origin from Gostivar). 1 of my distant matches was tested by SNP(Upper Reka). The others are doing Dante and will be uploading to yfull.

Those in Okshtun form a slightly younger cluster among themselves. Additionally, there are no matches outside of Albanians at this time. Only Albanians are confirmed in this cluster with common ancestors in Slavs at around 2100ybp(pending any potential future closer matches in non-Albanians). Several study samples, mostly Albanian(Gheg & Tosk) may belong in the cluster though miss a defining STR of L1029 to be sure.

Also, Iron age DNA of a late Hallstatt sample from Singen was R1a-M458, and a upcoming paper in peer review on East La Tene found L1029 in Iron Age Bohemia. I'm still of the mind it most migrated with an assortment of Slavic and affiliated tribes in the early medieval. Though, making the claim this assimilation process happened in the last century holds no weight.

Others before you made the claim using their favorite Serb or Bulgarian author and you appear to parrot the same rhetoric without supplying evidence for your comment. Basal Albanians in the cluster have no origin from Okshtun either. You have R1a even in Plan/Pult as well. Likely Z280.

Why haven't you DNA tested after all these years?
You don’t have any matches YET so that doesn’t mean your clade was a Hallstatt Illyrian either. Even if you were E-V13 from Okshtun or surrounding villages that still makes you more Slavic admix than the average Albanian.

That R1a from Pulti is such a small minority and I bet autosomally he’s got close to 0-1% Slavic admixture.

And I’ll test eventually too.

Moderator
11-21-2020, 03:48 AM
A reminder to all members: personalization of discussions and ad hominem attacks are prohibited at all times. Please remain civil and keep your discussions on topic.

vasil
11-21-2020, 05:26 AM
Balkan stuff is taking over every forum about genetics:heh::heh::heh::heh:

trdbr1234
11-25-2020, 03:33 AM
You don’t have any matches YET so that doesn’t mean your clade was a Hallstatt Illyrian either. Even if you were E-V13 from Okshtun or surrounding villages that still makes you more Slavic admix than the average Albanian.

That R1a from Pulti is such a small minority and I bet autosomally he’s got close to 0-1% Slavic admixture.

And I’ll test eventually too.

He has never stated he is "Hallstatt Illyrian". He has always maintained that it likely arrived early with the Slavic expansion. The branch however does not show a standard Slavic expansion. There are a multitude of examples for this. Most importantly, it was found in La Tene culture, which puts it in contact with the Germanic tribes whom he currently matches as well as the Hallstatt culture.

Also, from an autosomal perspective, he is literally the most paleo-Balkan individual in the Balkans so far. You literally make no sense what so ever.

trdbr1234
11-25-2020, 03:37 AM
The high incidence of R1a is in itself a clear indication of intrusion, so there’s that.

It is not a coincidence that R1a reaches its peak in Central-East and South-East Albania. The areas around Dibra and Korca had early Slavic input.

This is a fact. I also find it interesting how many cultural similarities we have with Korca.

I sometimes feel as though Dibra and Korca can be plucked out of the respective Gheg and Tosk counterparts. Mannerisms are far more common with each-other.

Nino90
11-30-2020, 04:19 PM
How much Slavic admixture does an avarage Albanian have?

With Slavic I mean Slavic like Poland and Belarus. Not Balkan slavs who are heavy mixed with the original populations of Balkan.

trdbr1234
12-01-2020, 02:19 AM
How much Slavic admixture does an avarage Albanian have?

With Slavic I mean Slavic like Poland and Belarus. Not Balkan slavs who are heavy mixed with the original populations of Balkan.

Assumption is 10-20%. We don't have pre-migration samples from Albania to compare. From What I've seen on G25 maps, Northwestern Albania is most admixed, followed by Kosovars. Although Slavic tribes are recorded as having been established in Southern Albania. Y-DNA also backs up a Slavic presence in Southern Albania with up to 30% of the Y-DNA line potentially derived from the Slavic expansion. Eastern and Southern Albania shows a higher degree of potentially "Slavic" Y-DNA lineages. The reverse is true for Northwestern Albania and Kosovars. I think it is complicated and not enough information to know.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15359-G25-PCA-Plots&highlight=plots

TuaMan
12-01-2020, 03:00 AM
Assumption is 10-20%. We don't have pre-migration samples from Albania to compare. From What I've seen on G25 maps, Northwestern Albania is most admixed, followed by Kosovars. Although Slavic tribes are recorded as having been established in Southern Albania. Y-DNA also backs up a Slavic presence in Southern Albania with up to 30% of the Y-DNA line potentially derived from the Slavic expansion. Western and Southern Albania shows a higher degree of potentially "Slavic" Y-DNA lineages. The reverse is true for Northwestern Albania and Kosovars. I think it is complicated and not enough information to know.

https://ucbb106a1e20eb56f3757e8ea259.previews.dropboxuserc ontent.com/p/thumb/AA_pVI12AE3vlBZaQVj39Z1KXVxqlLz_xehERRmtddK7kMo1nS V6Vf7kQoH8l34G0DKPqL5FQg8cvp3EBZtbAwg93H2aeRfjxYYy OzAr5M_jsFZ05Is0gnAGkuRPP5IamZS7gVjT6BaCA4An4bntww 4HUnnsq6_d5KHB5pyJT8qeZ7Uor707r0lfQa5I3l4fdVdtQvkz _3ivuhVgjcMdsUjvMS760hmel8ykrUI-nMOTZ6V3qEtMSBzu7ofm65l-74I5XVaG9-hbgp7o15q6JikiarX_0FKsqGlAaEi7AUqk5lL-pe77TMJDyuWVN7U-IdRL9EvECy2bCG_4M1wKfPFf6Fuv87Gf8A1zOvS0Ip73HnWFVy jHOXRozUOGvs-a8NUP3k5BYylPrH8JagZrBNUq/p.png?fv_content=true&size_mode=5

So this would mean Northwestern Albanian and Kosovar Slavic influence is primarily female mediated?

DgidguBidgu
12-01-2020, 03:27 AM
How much Slavic admixture does an avarage Albanian have?

With Slavic I mean Slavic like Poland and Belarus. Not Balkan slavs who are heavy mixed with the original populations of Balkan.

Yes, the exclusion logic is a good method. What's more interesting is what's left as if we
remove the northern Finno-Ugric Balts called "Slavs" here and the Balkan Southern Slavs, who are the representatives of the old local tribes? What exactly is left for the Albanians after this account? Does anyone have any idea?

CyrylBojarski
12-01-2020, 07:58 AM
Yes, the exclusion logic is a good method. What's more interesting is what's left as if we
remove the northern Finno-Ugric Balts called "Slavs" here and the Balkan Southern Slavs, who are the representatives of the old local tribes? What exactly is left for the Albanians after this account? Does anyone have any idea?

There is no Finno-Ugric genetic influence in Eastern Europe outside Eastern and Northern Russia. Baltic genetic admixture is only present in Baltic countries and very small western part of Belarus and Russia.
Real Slavic admix ( Polish-like) in Albanians is about 15%

trdbr1234
12-01-2020, 10:56 PM
So this would mean Northwestern Albanian and Kosovar Slavic influence is primarily female mediated?

If you look at it from an outcome point of view, I guess.

I think the dynamics are complicated. I personally think the enduring tribal nature of Northern Albania resulted in incremental mating advantages for the dominant tribal groups.

DgidguBidgu
12-01-2020, 11:55 PM
There is no Finno-Ugric genetic influence in Eastern Europe outside Eastern and Northern Russia. Baltic genetic admixture is only present in Baltic countries and very small western part of Belarus and Russia.
Real Slavic admix ( Polish-like) in Albanians is about 15%

That are not the real Slavic for sure. Poland has nothing to do with the origin of IE or in particular with Slavic languages. History about Slavic question is known and Poland has no historical role here. You better look at the Estonian profile and explain why their significant percentage of R1a have not changed their language to IE.
more importantly look at the description given in the quote, which exactly confirms the fact that these people have nothing to do with IE languages at all, and who came under the influence of the old Balkan Slavs and were Indo-Europeanized by them.
"(R1a) is widespread in Central Asian Turkic-speakingpopulations (from East to West: Altaics, Uyghurs, Kirgisians, Selkups, Uzbekista-nis), in eastern European (Kazan Tatars, Bashkirs), in Finno-Ugric (Finns / Suomi, Estonians, Hungarians), in Slavic (Russians, Ukrainians, Poles) and in Germanic (Germans, Swedes, Norwegians) speaking populations and has also been foundless frequently in populations of the Caucasus and the Middle East, in India, andin Sino-Tibetans of Northern China. "

Hawk
12-02-2020, 08:50 AM
Pre-Slavic Albanians were more in between Tuscans/North-Italians and Greeks.

gjenetiks
12-09-2020, 08:35 PM
Assumption is 10-20%. We don't have pre-migration samples from Albania to compare. From What I've seen on G25 maps, Northwestern Albania is most admixed, followed by Kosovars. Although Slavic tribes are recorded as having been established in Southern Albania. Y-DNA also backs up a Slavic presence in Southern Albania with up to 30% of the Y-DNA line potentially derived from the Slavic expansion. Eastern and Southern Albania shows a higher degree of potentially "Slavic" Y-DNA lineages. The reverse is true for Northwestern Albania and Kosovars. I think it is complicated and not enough information to know.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15359-G25-PCA-Plots&highlight=plots

From the results you've seen on G25 how slavic admixed are NW Albos & does this include MNE Albos?

DgidguBidgu
12-09-2020, 09:43 PM
How much Slavic admixture does an avarage Albanian have?

With Slavic I mean Slavic like Poland and Belarus. Not Balkan slavs who are heavy mixed with the original populations of Balkan.

"Balkan slavs" cannot be mixed with the original Balkans (because they are the old Balkans), their DNA (PCA with all neighboring countries show it), too specific old local culture and traditions, old language, historical references, and everything that defines them says that the Balkan Slavs are a local people mixed with Finno-Ugric from the North. The"Slavs" from the north are Slavonized Finno-Ugric and Baltic.
Here you can read about the "oldest "Slavic" literary work in Poland " which actually is Bulgarian by origin. These are the facts and with the language.
The reason why they understood the origin of the book is the exact specifics of the older analytical Bulgarian language, which still are not found in any other Slavic language, because they are much younger according by their grammar.
" Vocalizations of yers, rarely occurring epenthesis, change of ъ to ь behind hardened č, ž, š and some other linguistic traits point to its (Eastern) Bulgarian linguistic provenance."
No matter what DNA says, the language itself is the strongest proof who is the unquestionable source for a language because it is spoken in a every moment by many people for millennia. Cannot be tampered with like the other data (history, DNA...) which I guess is a bigger hurdle to the various IE theories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Suprasliensis

JoeyP37
12-10-2020, 12:06 AM
All right, let's try to lose this nonsense of Slavs being acculturated Finno-Ugrics. Whether by fringe lunatics or western Europeans resentful of Slavic nationalism and wishing to portray them as even more un-European and outré by ascribing to them Siberian provenance, this is patently false. The only Slavs with any Finno-Ugric influence at all are the Russians. More nonsense is trying to extrapolate the dominant haplogroups in a people at their founding by modern frequencies, especially when an ethnicity in question was under dominion of foreign empires for centuries.

DgidguBidgu
12-10-2020, 03:13 AM
All right, let's try to lose this nonsense of Slavs being acculturated Finno-Ugrics. Whether by fringe lunatics or western Europeans resentful of Slavic nationalism and wishing to portray them as even more un-European and outré by ascribing to them Siberian provenance, this is patently false. The only Slavs with any Finno-Ugric influence at all are the Russians. More nonsense is trying to extrapolate the dominant haplogroups in a people at their founding by modern frequencies, especially when an ethnicity in question was under dominion of foreign empires for centuries.

I understand that the truth is sometimes unpleasant, but it has already been described in a study pointing to the Russian steppes and yamnaya as a sources of Finno-Ugric languages.The nature of their origins is geographically and genetically supportive, and history and linguistics have also been strong on this issue for centuries.Here comes one awkward questionto explain the fact why Estonians speak the Uralic language although one of the main haplogroups there R1a is mentioned for the main Indo European by some.It is interesting how the process of Indo-Europeanization worked in Italy and Greece, for example, but not in the bosom of such an important IndoE Group. In some places in southern Europe, 3% have done the work where 40% have failed. Clear.Why is R1a described among the following non-European populations, and do you see a linguistic and geographical connection in any way related to its origin?"(R1a) is widespread in Central Asian Turkic-speakingpopulations (from East to West: Altaics, Uyghurs, Kirgisians, Selkups, Uzbekista-nis), in eastern European (Kazan Tatars, Bashkirs), in Finno-Ugric (Finns / Suomi, Estonians, Hungarians), in Slavic (Russians, Ukrainians, Poles) "In conclusion, my questions are rhetorical and no fantastic gymnastics can convince me to even look at your position based on mere desire and nothing more.I am not interested in a discussion in which one has no idea of ​​European history, but simply misunderstands and mixes empathy, facts, truth, science, dogma ...

Xeon
12-10-2020, 04:35 AM
. You better look at the Estonian profile and explain why their significant percentage of R1a have not changed their language to IE.
"

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here but you can't really objectify and generalize the correlation between haplogroups and language. In many cases, the native haplogroup of an area doesn't have to necessarily change along with the language.

Did colonized african countries go through a mass haplogroup shift when they were colonized by european powers and influenced to speak french and german? No. In some cases, yes, if the invading group is migrating in significant waves and the men are successful at settling down and reproducing in a foreign environment, there will be have a haplogroup shift.

Baltic communities could have been easily influenced to speak uralic languages through political means. Communities have influenced and borrowed from each other for a millennia. How does this related to haplogroups?

DgidguBidgu
12-10-2020, 02:59 PM
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here but you can't really objectify and generalize the correlation between haplogroups and language. In many cases, the native haplogroup of an area doesn't have to necessarily change along with the language.

Did colonized african countries go through a mass haplogroup shift when they were colonized by european powers and influenced to speak french and german? No. In some cases, yes, if the invading group is migrating in significant waves and the men are successful at settling down and reproducing in a foreign environment, there will be have a haplogroup shift.

Baltic communities could have been easily influenced to speak uralic languages through political means. Communities have influenced and borrowed from each other for a millennia. How does this related to haplogroups?

This sounds like general talk and excuses to me, it's not serious. I don't understand you either. You seem to be against expressing my personal opinion.


In short:We have two different scientific terms for evidently very different genetic groups.
One look at European PCAs is enough.
Some are Balts and others are Slavs, but they speak a Slavic language, clearly who influenced whom. I guess you are not claiming that they spoke the same language in the first place? They were formed at different places and according to the characteristics of their languages ​​at different times.
The only one possible conclusion is the older language of the same group has influenced the new one. Do you see something scary and illogical here, given that everything corresponds to the written European history?
Like which country when it originated, what territory it covered and what influence it had. Everything is corresponding well in history and linguistics.


The evidences that serve me as a guide are from different scientific disciplines, and DNA is given additional weight to the opinion I have expressed. The same is expressed by scientists based on scientific methodology in their work from this year, including the participation of a linguist such as Giuseppe Longobardi.


https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.02.364521v1.full


It is not me who generalize but the defenders of Yamnaya or Corded Ware theory who try to link them to IndoE languages ​​and to specific haplogroups based on nothing.
The truth is simple: achievements related to the spread of Indo-E languages ​​cannot be linked to them in any way. Achievements have occurred long before their formation, including the PIE.
If you do not agree with the news on the subject, you may need to personally raise your objections to the experts involved.

Kelmendasi
12-10-2020, 03:07 PM
The subject being discussed right now has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

If you want to carry on, do so on another thread and stop derailing.

DgidguBidgu
12-10-2020, 03:09 PM
The subject being discussed right now has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

If you want to carry on, do so on another thread and stop derailing.
You are right, sorry we distorted the topic.

XXD
12-10-2020, 06:38 PM
Not sure how much this has been touched before, but I would like to express what I think should be done to conclusively prove the origins of Albanians.

I would like to say that I feel a deep connection with my Albanian neighbours, and I believe that their history and traditions are among the most interesting of Europe, and of immense importance for Indoeuropean studies. I would also like to say that I do not support any Greek nationalist propaganda or anything of the sort. Both of our countries roots are very mixed, and discovering how these processes took place is fascinating.

First, I would like to list what we know with a fair amount of certainty:

1) Linguistic origins and affinities of the Albanian language.

The Albanian language is almost certainly not descended from Illyrian proper (i.e. the Illyrian populations living in what is now Albania). The very high number of Latin loanwords (40% !) suggest that proto Albanian evolved North of the Jirecek line. On the contrary, Illyrians proper had been highly Hellenised culturally and likely genetically early in their history, and would not have been so heavily Latinized. The number of Greek loanwords in Albanian is surprisingly low.

Furthermore, there is an enormous number of protoAlbanian and protoVlach isoglosses, which suggest that the two peoples were in close proximity in the past. This is the opinion most major albanologists/vlachologists, (e.g. John Bassett Trumper). They postulate that based on linguistic and historiographical data, the geographical area occupied by protoAlbanians would have been somewhere in Moesia. Therefore, proto Albanians may have descended partially or entirely from Moesians. They postulate that proto Albanians entered modern Albania some time after 500 AD.

You can read more about this here (using google translate):

https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/2013/11/21/%ce%bf%ce%b9-%ce%b3%ce%bb%cf%89%cf%83%cf%83%ce%b9%ce%ba%ce%bf%c e%af-%cf%80%cf%81%cf%8c%ce%b3%ce%bf%ce%bd%ce%bf%ce%b9-%cf%84%cf%89%ce%bd-%ce%b1%ce%bb%ce%b2%ce%b1%ce%bd%cf%8e%ce%bd-%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9/

https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/2013/11/21/%ce%bf%ce%b9-%ce%b3%ce%bb%cf%89%cf%83%cf%83%ce%b9%ce%ba%ce%bf%c e%af-%cf%80%cf%81%cf%8c%ce%b3%ce%bf%ce%bd%ce%bf%ce%b9-%cf%84%cf%89%ce%bd-%ce%b1%ce%bb%ce%b2%ce%b1%ce%bd%cf%8e%ce%bd-%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-2/

These are good summaries by a Greek linguist and fanatic anti Greek nationalist, so I don't think he has any foul play here. In these articles, there are also links to the original talks given by these specialists.

2) What happened to the Illyrians of current Albania?

During the Slavic invasions (6th and 7th centuries A.D.), we lose all mentions of "proper" Illyrians (excluding later anachronisms). Many archaeological sites and major cities show abandonment, while others show continued habitation. It is possible that a large part of the population perished, intermixed and/or moved to more mountainous regions. I am fairly certain that by the time proto Albanians entered modern Albania, the Illyrian population must have been heavily slavicised, both culturally and genetically. In other former Illyrian lands (e.g. Croatia, Bosnia) we see that there was more than 70% autosomal replacement, with pockets of less admixed Illyrians surviving only in small coastal enclaves, likely evolving to become the Morlak Vlachs.

Toponymic data suggest that the Slavic population of Albania was massive, especially.mostly in the South. I expect that due to some advantage (probably military, tactical, mode of life), the proto Albanians were able to dominate the local palaeoBalkan admixed Slavs, and to spread their language and genes. This also happened with protoVlachs, when they moved northwards towards modern day Romania, where they imposed their culture, language and genes on the local Slavs and Goths.

3) What do genetics tell us?

Modern Albanians are obviously a paleoBalkan population, with significant Slavic admixture. Albanians and their possible Moesian ancestors, were likely related to Illyrians, both linguistically and genetically. Our few available Illyrian archaeogenetic samples (e.g. HRV IA) are dominated by Y haplogroups J2b and R1b Z2103, both of which are very common in modern Albanians.

However, when I model the ancestry of modern Albanians, most of their palaeoBalkan ancestry comes from sources similar to classic and Roman era Greeks (Empuries, Collegno and Roman Imperial samples), while they score only a few points with the the Iron Age Illyrian sample (HRV IA) (see attached image). It does not mean of course that Albanians descend from Greeks, but from a similar, more Southern source. If they were descended primarily from Illyrians, they would score way higher with HRV IA, when in fact, most Albanians do not score any ancestry from this source at all (see image). Also, on a PCA, the Illyrians from Croatia plot considerably more Northern than modern Albanians, who instead cluster with Northern Greeks and South Slavs.

Conclusions:

I think there is strong evidence that the modern Albanian population descends from two primary sources: 1) Central North Balkan, likely Moesian Proto Albanians

2) Early Balkan Slavs, that were heavily mixed with Southern Illyrians.

To test this hypothesis, I think it is imperative that we:

1) Extract DNA from pre Roman, Roman, late antiquity, invasion period and late medieval samples from Albania, Serbia, North Macedonia (Moesia Superior) and northern Bulgaria (Moesia Interior), and to compare them with modern day Albanians.

2) Study the archaeological context of these samples, to understand the cultural and demographic processes that took place.

My Albanian friends, tell me what you think!

41630

41631

Kelmendasi
12-10-2020, 07:49 PM
Not sure how much this has been touched before, but I would like to express what I think should be done to conclusively prove the origins of Albanians.

I would like to say that I feel a deep connection with my Albanian neighbours, and I believe that their history and traditions are among the most interesting of Europe, and of immense importance for Indoeuropean studies. I would also like to say that I do not support any Greek nationalist propaganda or anything of the sort. Both of our countries roots are very mixed, and discovering how these processes took place is fascinating.

First, I would like to list what we know with a fair amount of certainty:

1) Linguistic origins and affinities of the Albanian language.

The Albanian language is almost certainly not descended from Illyrian proper (i.e. the Illyrian populations living in what is now Albania). The very high number of Latin loanwords (40% !) suggest that proto Albanian evolved North of the Jirecek line. On the contrary, Illyrians proper had been highly Hellenised culturally and likely genetically early in their history, and would not have been so heavily Latinized. The number of Greek loanwords in Albanian is surprisingly low.

Furthermore, there is an enormous number of protoAlbanian and protoVlach isoglosses, which suggest that the two peoples were in close proximity in the past. This is the opinion most major albanologists/vlachologists, (e.g. John Bassett Trumper). They postulate that based on linguistic and historiographical data, the geographical area occupied by protoAlbanians would have been somewhere in Moesia. Therefore, proto Albanians may have descended partially or entirely from Moesians. They postulate that proto Albanians entered modern Albania some time after 500 AD.

You can read more about this here (using google translate):

https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/2013/11/21/%ce%bf%ce%b9-%ce%b3%ce%bb%cf%89%cf%83%cf%83%ce%b9%ce%ba%ce%bf%c e%af-%cf%80%cf%81%cf%8c%ce%b3%ce%bf%ce%bd%ce%bf%ce%b9-%cf%84%cf%89%ce%bd-%ce%b1%ce%bb%ce%b2%ce%b1%ce%bd%cf%8e%ce%bd-%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9/

https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/2013/11/21/%ce%bf%ce%b9-%ce%b3%ce%bb%cf%89%cf%83%cf%83%ce%b9%ce%ba%ce%bf%c e%af-%cf%80%cf%81%cf%8c%ce%b3%ce%bf%ce%bd%ce%bf%ce%b9-%cf%84%cf%89%ce%bd-%ce%b1%ce%bb%ce%b2%ce%b1%ce%bd%cf%8e%ce%bd-%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-2/

These are good summaries by a Greek linguist and fanatic anti Greek nationalist, so I don't think he has any foul play here. In these articles, there are also links to the original talks given by these specialists.

2) What happened to the Illyrians of current Albania?

During the Slavic invasions (6th and 7th centuries A.D.), we lose all mentions of "proper" Illyrians (excluding later anachronisms). Many archaeological sites and major cities show abandonment, while others show continued habitation. It is possible that a large part of the population perished, intermixed and/or moved to more mountainous regions. I am fairly certain that by the time proto Albanians entered modern Albania, the Illyrian population must have been heavily slavicised, both culturally and genetically. In other former Illyrian lands (e.g. Croatia, Bosnia) we see that there was more than 70% autosomal replacement, with pockets of less admixed Illyrians surviving only in small coastal enclaves, likely evolving to become the Morlak Vlachs.

Toponymic data suggest that the Slavic population of Albania was massive, especially.mostly in the South. I expect that due to some advantage (probably military, tactical, mode of life), the proto Albanians were able to dominate the local palaeoBalkan admixed Slavs, and to spread their language and genes. This also happened with protoVlachs, when they moved northwards towards modern day Romania, where they imposed their culture, language and genes on the local Slavs and Goths.

3) What do genetics tell us?

Modern Albanians are obviously a paleoBalkan population, with significant Slavic admixture. Albanians and their possible Moesian ancestors, were likely related to Illyrians, both linguistically and genetically. Our few available Illyrian archaeogenetic samples (e.g. HRV IA) are dominated by Y haplogroups J2b and R1b Z2103, both of which are very common in modern Albanians.

However, when I model the ancestry of modern Albanians, most of their palaeoBalkan ancestry comes from sources similar to classic and Roman era Greeks (Empuries, Collegno and Roman Imperial samples), while they score only a few points with the the Iron Age Illyrian sample (HRV IA) (see attached image). It does not mean of course that Albanians descend from Greeks, but from a similar, more Southern source. If they were descended primarily from Illyrians, they would score way higher with HRV IA, when in fact, most Albanians do not score any ancestry from this source at all (see image). Also, on a PCA, the Illyrians from Croatia plot considerably more Northern than modern Albanians, who instead cluster with Northern Greeks and South Slavs.

Conclusions:

I think there is strong evidence that the modern Albanian population descends from two primary sources: 1) Central North Balkan, likely Moesian Proto Albanians

2) Early Balkan Slavs, that were heavily mixed with Southern Illyrians.

To test this hypothesis, I think it is imperative that we:

1) Extract DNA from pre Roman, Roman, late antiquity, invasion period and late medieval samples from Albania, Serbia, North Macedonia (Moesia Superior) and northern Bulgaria (Moesia Interior), and to compare them with modern day Albanians.

2) Study the archaeological context of these samples, to understand the cultural and demographic processes that took place.

My Albanian friends, tell me what you think!

41630

41631
Thanks for showing an interest in the topic and sharing your thoughts on it.

Firstly, I do not think that we can say with much certainty whether or not the Albanian language is derived from an Illyrian language spoken within the borders of modern day Albania. The linguistic data is far too scarce. However, what little data we have does very strongly suggest that Proto-Albanian either came from an Illyrian language or was closely related, possibly part of the same branch. This is especially shown through certain important isoglosses with Messapian, a language that more likely than not arrived from the historical region of Illyria. A good example is the Albanian word bri (horn or antler) which comes from the Proto-Albanian *brina, this shows clear parallels with the Messapic bréndon (deer). Another good example is the word re (cloud or mist), from Proto-Albanian *rina which shows an almost identical development as both the Illyrian and Messapian *rhīnós which had the same meaning.

We must not neglect the fact that many Illyrian tribal names can be confidently explained through Albanian. A very good example is that of the Taulantii, an Illyrian tribe that occupied a large area of western Albania. The name of this tribe can be explained by the Albanian dallėndyshe ("swallow"), this especially makes sense when you bear in mind the fact that they are also referred to as Chelidones or Khelidones (Χελιδόνες), deriving from the Ancient Greek word for "swallow", khelīdṓn (χελιδών). Other relations include that of the Dardani and the Albanian word for "pear" dardhė, from Proto-Albanian *dardā.

Whilst it is true that the heavy presence of Latin loanwords in Albanian suggests that Late Proto-Albanian (or Early Proto-Albanian according to Matasović) was potentially spoken to the north of the Jireček Line, I do not think that it's necessary to place the ethnogenesis all the way northeast into Moesia (not including the territory of the Dardani). Toponyms that show typical Albanian reflexes are also not located that far east, the most notable examples include toponyms such as Niš (Albanian: Nish) and Skopje (Albanian: Shkup). Whilst these toponyms are located just to the east of Albania, they roughly correspond to the tribal territory of the Dardani. And there are in fact toponyms in Albania that do follow Albanian sound laws; such as Lezhė from Lissus. This suggests that even if the Proto-Albanians originally occupied an area around the central Balkans, they had settled around modern Albania rather early on.

This is also suggested by the Proto-Albanian toponym and hydronym Mati which, according to the linguist Joachim Matzinger, is first attested between the 4th and 5th centuries CE in the works of Vibius Sequester. His works mention that this area was not far from the modern day town of Lezha in northwestern Albania (Mathis Dyrrachi non longe a Lisso), clearly corresponding to the area where the River Mat runs through. This suggests that the Proto-Albanians had established and consolidated themselves in this region rather early on. This is then supported by the Geg-Tosk dialect split which occurred rather early on and certainly predates any contact with Slavic-speakers.

In regards to the Slavic toponyms, in the south a large number of them can be attributed to the expansion of the Bulgarian Empire into the region. South Slavic polities had conquered and held territories in Albania multiple times, it is not surprising to see Slavic toponyms show up, and it certainly does not suggest that the Slavic population was absorbed by incoming Albanians. This itself would have been hard considering that South Slavs usually had far greater political authority than the Albanians. Assimilation on such as scale is very unlikely as a result. Should also note that the study of village names is not always reliable, especially in a region such as the Balkans where villages were abandoned and repopulated on multiple occasions.

As for the genetic side of things, Albanian Y-DNA haplogroups largely favour a more western Balkan origin for the most part. This is best shown through clusters under R1b-Z2705 and J2b-L283 (e.g., J2b-Z38300+ clusters) which are too closely associated to Albanian and the region to be explained through intermixing with South Slavs that were heavily admixed with the former Illyrian population of the region. As for auDNA, I think it's best to wait for actual samples from the region that date back to the Iron Age and Antiquity. The J2b-Z38240* sample from Dalmatia was in fact from the Middle Late Bronze Age (1631-1521 BCE), the R1b-Z2103 sample was also from the Bronze Age and belonged to the Vučedol culture. So not necessarily representative of the genetic profile of Illyria in later centuries.

XXD
12-11-2020, 03:54 AM
Thanks for showing an interest in the topic and sharing your thoughts on it.

Firstly, I do not think that we can say with much certainty whether or not the Albanian language is derived from an Illyrian language spoken within the borders of modern day Albania. The linguistic data is far too scarce. However, what little data we have does very strongly suggest that Proto-Albanian either came from an Illyrian language or was closely related, possibly part of the same branch. This is especially shown through certain important isoglosses with Messapian, a language that more likely than not arrived from the historical region of Illyria. A good example is the Albanian word bri (horn or antler) which comes from the Proto-Albanian *brina, this shows clear parallels with the Messapic bréndon (deer). Another good example is the word re (cloud or mist), from Proto-Albanian *rina which shows an almost identical development as both the Illyrian and Messapian *rhīnós which had the same meaning.

We must not neglect the fact that many Illyrian tribal names can be confidently explained through Albanian. A very good example is that of the Taulantii, an Illyrian tribe that occupied a large area of western Albania. The name of this tribe can be explained by the Albanian dallėndyshe ("swallow"), this especially makes sense when you bear in mind the fact that they are also referred to as Chelidones or Khelidones (Χελιδόνες), deriving from the Ancient Greek word for "swallow", khelīdṓn (χελιδών). Other relations include that of the Dardani and the Albanian word for "pear" dardhė, from Proto-Albanian *dardā.

Whilst it is true that the heavy presence of Latin loanwords in Albanian suggests that Late Proto-Albanian (or Early Proto-Albanian according to Matasović) was potentially spoken to the north of the Jireček Line, I do not think that it's necessary to place the ethnogenesis all the way northeast into Moesia (not including the territory of the Dardani). Toponyms that show typical Albanian reflexes are also not located that far east, the most notable examples include toponyms such as Niš (Albanian: Nish) and Skopje (Albanian: Shkup). Whilst these toponyms are located just to the east of Albania, they roughly correspond to the tribal territory of the Dardani. And there are in fact toponyms in Albania that do follow Albanian sound laws; such as Lezhė from Lissus. This suggests that even if the Proto-Albanians originally occupied an area around the central Balkans, they had settled around modern Albania rather early on.

This is also suggested by the Proto-Albanian toponym and hydronym Mati which, according to the linguist Joachim Matzinger, is first attested between the 4th and 5th centuries CE in the works of Vibius Sequester. His works mention that this area was not far from the modern day town of Lezha in northwestern Albania (Mathis Dyrrachi non longe a Lisso), clearly corresponding to the area where the River Mat runs through. This suggests that the Proto-Albanians had established and consolidated themselves in this region rather early on. This is then supported by the Geg-Tosk dialect split which occurred rather early on and certainly predates any contact with Slavic-speakers.

In regards to the Slavic toponyms, in the south a large number of them can be attributed to the expansion of the Bulgarian Empire into the region. South Slavic polities had conquered and held territories in Albania multiple times, it is not surprising to see Slavic toponyms show up, and it certainly does not suggest that the Slavic population was absorbed by incoming Albanians. This itself would have been hard considering that South Slavs usually had far greater political authority than the Albanians. Assimilation on such as scale is very unlikely as a result. Should also note that the study of village names is not always reliable, especially in a region such as the Balkans where villages were abandoned and repopulated on multiple occasions.

As for the genetic side of things, Albanian Y-DNA haplogroups largely favour a more western Balkan origin for the most part. This is best shown through clusters under R1b-Z2705 and J2b-L283 (e.g., J2b-Z38300+ clusters) which are too closely associated to Albanian and the region to be explained through intermixing with South Slavs that were heavily admixed with the former Illyrian population of the region. As for auDNA, I think it's best to wait for actual samples from the region that date back to the Iron Age and Antiquity. The J2b-Z38240* sample from Dalmatia was in fact from the Middle Late Bronze Age (1631-1521 BCE), the R1b-Z2103 sample was also from the Bronze Age and belonged to the Vučedol culture. So not necessarily representative of the genetic profile of Illyria in later centuries.

Thank you for your very informative response, as always. I will respond point to point, to this very interesting discussion!

1. The origin of the Albanian language and how it informs us about the location of protoAlbanians.

I think we agree that protoAlbanians must have been somewhere North of the Jirecek line, as the protoAlbanian language has about 636 Latin loanwords, and only 10 Greek ones. This leaves at least 80% of modern Albania below the Jirecek line, in the Greek speaking world. In fact, Strabo, informs us that most of the Southern Illyrians were bilingual in Greek, and inscriptions in Greek are found in several locations in Albania from 500 A.D., some even extending to 800 A.D.

Furthermore, the incorporation of Latin loanwords into the Northern Illyrians of Dalmatia and protoAlbanian are different: Dalmatian Illyrians (and then Morlaks) used primarily Western Balkan Romance, while protoAlbanian uses primarily (but not entirely) Eastern Balkan Romance.

This leads us to the Vlach connection. Almost all of the substrate preLatin words of Vlach, have cognates only with protoAlbanian, which suggests that protoAlbanians and protoVlachs are either closely related, or at least they interacted with each other for a significant period of time, and at the same geographical location. Based on linguistic and historical data, this area of interaction must have been somewhere around Moesia Superior (aka modern day Serbia), but perhaps also neighbouring Dardania.

We even have inscriptions of Latin in Moesia, which contain a lot of grammatical errors, and are thought to have been attempts of a partly Latinate person trying to show off to their less Latinate friends. This strongly suggests that Latinisation in this area was incomplete, which is also the case with Albanian. The reasons why Vlachs became fully Latinised are complex, and beyond the scope of this post.

2. Relation of Illyrian to Albanian.

Indeed, some Illyrian names are only explained by Albanian, which means that this could be a related language. This does not contradict the hypothesis of the protoAlbanian homeland somewhere in Moesia Superior or Dardania, as these areas were melting pots, where Illyrian, Dalmato/Pannonian, Moesian and Thracian were spoken. Plus in the first century A.D., there was a massive migration of Geto Dacians in the area, adding to the linguistic mix. In fact, even close to Shkodra, there was a place known as Thermidava, of Daco/Moesian etymology. Our understanding of these languages and their relationships are still highly debated, but at least some are related to each other to the extent that they could allow us to infer the etymology of some Southern Illyrian words through Albanian (although the vast majority can only be explained through proto Indoeuropean). So protoAlbanian is likely a language that could be closely related to Southern Illyrian, but unlikely to be the same. There is also some evidence that the Southern and Dalmatian Illyrians spoke closely related, yet distinct languages.

3. The Slavic influence.

The first identifiably Albanian material culture is the one of Kruja-Komani, which appeared in Northern and Central Albania at least by the 7th century (perhaps earlier), and also happens to be in the area with the lowest number of Slavic toponyms (Mat Valley). This is also where we first get the city of Arbanon, which led to the ethnonym of modern Albanians.

But what about the thousands of Slavic toponyms in Albania?

There are two things we need to consider:

1) Many toponyms are Slavic transformations of older Illyrian toponyms. This obviously means that someone was living there during the Slavic raids, and transmitted the Illyrian names to the new invaders, and subsequently to protoAlbanians.

2) A huge number of Slavic toponyms (including hydronyms) were first slavicised, and then albanised. Meaning that Slavs came first, Albanians came second, and albanised the former. A typical example is e.g. Vjosa, which comes from the Greek Aoos, slavicised into Avosa>Vavosa, and then Albanised into Vejosa and then Vjosa.

Even linguistically, if we date most of these Slavic toponyms, they are early Slavic, not later Bulgarian ones.

Therefore, unlike what happened in most of the Balkans, where the Slavs dominated and is some cases almost completely exterminated the earlier inhabitants, in Albania, the opposite scenario seems to have taken place. Which if true, is extremely interesting, as the protoAlbanians did not (seem to) have the military might, or more importantly, the sophisticated state building mechanism of the Eastern Roman Empire. It took centuries of intense work for the Byzantines to fully Hellenise the Slavs, while the Albanians may have achieved this much earlier, perhaps through a different route. Finding out how this happened, is in my opinion one of the most fascinating sociocultural phenomena in the Balkans, if not in Europe.

I would like to also say again that a priority should be to try to identify what was the genetic makeup of what is now Albania immediately following the Slavic raids, and try to see how they compare to modern Albanians. My humble opinion is that it would have been a fully or partially slavicised group of Southern Illyrians (possibly with some limited Greek admixture). How Slavic these people were genetically, I think we have no way of knowing at the moment.

So, if the above account is at least partly true, I suspect that modern Albanians descend primarily from North/Central PalaeoBalkan protoAlbanians, who mixed with the Slavicised inhabitants of the former Southern Illyrian lands.

4. Y chromosome haplogroups.

I absolutely agree that J2b and R1b-Z2705, which are among the dominant haplogroups in Albanians today, are also shared with Bronze Age (North) Illyrian samples. This does imply an affinity to Illyrians sensu lato, but this affinity is almost certainly not exclusive to this ancient ethnic group. These haplogroups were likely quite common in the ancient non Greek Balkan world: judging by their (low) frequency in present day Bulgarians, North Macedonians and Romanians, they were probably present in Thracians and Dacians as well (and almost certainly in Dardanians and Moesians). I can accept that some of it may be due to Albanian migrations (especially in North Macedonia), but heck, in Romania? Albanians are unlikely to account for all of it, don't you think?

In sum, I think there is reasonable linguistic, historical and archaeological evidence (albeit quite scant) that protoAlbanians originated somewhere very close to Albania (most probably slightly NorthEast), but not in Albania itself.

I know we are in the Balkans, and there is an obsession with who came where first, but personally, I think if you have been in a certain place for more than a few generations, you have every claim to that land as anyone else. Albanians have every right to their lands like every other sovereign nation and ethnos. Where they descend from is irrelevant, like for every other European nation. Most Greeks are also mixed with Slavs, Albanians, Vlachs and ancient Near Easterners. This does not and should not affect the borders of the Greek Republic.

Plus, Albanians managed to retain the only PalaeoBalkan language besides Greek, their traditions, and ultimately, their genetics, and they did that without the world's biggest Empire helping them to achieve it. And I think this is absolutely impressive and beautiful!

Apologies for the massive post.

gjenetiks
12-11-2020, 05:36 AM
What best explains the Albanian-Romanian linguistic relationship? I think this is the one thing that boosts the Daco-Moesian argument, that Albanians were descendants of Daco-Moesians, who were semi-romanized, while Romanians were fully romanized, explaining the words Albanian and Romanian have in common.

Kelmendasi
12-11-2020, 05:46 AM
Thank you for your very informative response, as always. I will respond point to point, to this very interesting discussion!

1. The origin of the Albanian language and how it informs us about the location of protoAlbanians.

I think we agree that protoAlbanians must have been somewhere North of the Jirecek line, as the protoAlbanian language has about 636 Latin loanwords, and only 10 Greek ones. This leaves at least 80% of modern Albania below the Jirecek line, in the Greek speaking world. In fact, Strabo, informs us that most of the Southern Illyrians were bilingual in Greek, and inscriptions in Greek are found in several locations in Albania from 500 A.D., some even extending to 800 A.D.

Furthermore, the incorporation of Latin loanwords into the Northern Illyrians of Dalmatia and protoAlbanian are different: Dalmatian Illyrians (and then Morlaks) used primarily Western Balkan Romance, while protoAlbanian uses primarily (but not entirely) Eastern Balkan Romance.

This leads us to the Vlach connection. Almost all of the substrate preLatin words of Vlach, have cognates only with protoAlbanian, which suggests that protoAlbanians and protoVlachs are either closely related, or at least they interacted with each other for a significant period of time, and at the same geographical location. Based on linguistic and historical data, this area of interaction must have been somewhere around Moesia Superior (aka modern day Serbia), but perhaps also neighbouring Dardania.

We even have inscriptions of Latin in Moesia, which contain a lot of grammatical errors, and are thought to have been attempts of a partly Latinate person trying to show off to their less Latinate friends. This strongly suggests that Latinisation in this area was incomplete, which is also the case with Albanian. The reasons why Vlachs became fully Latinised are complex, and beyond the scope of this post.

2. Relation of Illyrian to Albanian.

Indeed, some Illyrian names are only explained by Albanian, which means that this could be a related language. This does not contradict the hypothesis of the protoAlbanian homeland somewhere in Moesia Superior or Dardania, as these areas were melting pots, where Illyrian, Dalmato/Pannonian, Moesian and Thracian were spoken. Plus in the first century A.D., there was a massive migration of Geto Dacians in the area, adding to the linguistic mix. In fact, even close to Shkodra, there was a place known as Thermidava, of Daco/Moesian etymology. Our understanding of these languages and their relationships are still highly debated, but at least some are related to each other to the extent that they could allow us to infer the etymology of some Southern Illyrian words through Albanian (although the vast majority can only be explained through proto Indoeuropean). So protoAlbanian is likely a language that could be closely related to Southern Illyrian, but unlikely to be the same. There is also some evidence that the Southern and Dalmatian Illyrians spoke closely related, yet distinct languages.

3. The Slavic influence.

The first identifiably Albanian material culture is the one of Kruja-Komani, which appeared in Northern and Central Albania at least by the 7th century (perhaps earlier), and also happens to be in the area with the lowest number of Slavic toponyms (Mat Valley). This is also where we first get the city of Arbanon, which led to the ethnonym of modern Albanians.

But what about the thousands of Slavic toponyms in Albania?

There are two things we need to consider:

1) Many toponyms are Slavic transformations of older Illyrian toponyms. This obviously means that someone was living there during the Slavic raids, and transmitted the Illyrian names to the new invaders, and subsequently to protoAlbanians.

2) A huge number of Slavic toponyms (including hydronyms) were first slavicised, and then albanised. Meaning that Slavs came first, Albanians came second, and albanised the former. A typical example is e.g. Vjosa, which comes from the Greek Aoos, slavicised into Avosa>Vavosa, and then Albanised into Vejosa and then Vjosa.

Even linguistically, if we date most of these Slavic toponyms, they are early Slavic, not later Bulgarian ones.

Therefore, unlike what happened in most of the Balkans, where the Slavs dominated and is some cases almost completely exterminated the earlier inhabitants, in Albania, the opposite scenario seems to have taken place. Which if true, is extremely interesting, as the protoAlbanians did not (seem to) have the military might, or more importantly, the sophisticated state building mechanism of the Eastern Roman Empire. It took centuries of intense work for the Byzantines to fully Hellenise the Slavs, while the Albanians may have achieved this much earlier, perhaps through a different route. Finding out how this happened, is in my opinion one of the most fascinating sociocultural phenomena in the Balkans, if not in Europe.

I would like to also say again that a priority should be to try to identify what was the genetic makeup of what is now Albania immediately following the Slavic raids, and try to see how they compare to modern Albanians. My humble opinion is that it would have been a fully or partially slavicised group of Southern Illyrians (possibly with some limited Greek admixture). How Slavic these people were genetically, I think we have no way of knowing at the moment.

So, if the above account is at least partly true, I suspect that modern Albanians descend primarily from North/Central PalaeoBalkan protoAlbanians, who mixed with the Slavicised inhabitants of the former Southern Illyrian lands.

4. Y chromosome haplogroups.

I absolutely agree that J2b and R1b-Z2705, which are among the dominant haplogroups in Albanians today, are also shared with Bronze Age (North) Illyrian samples. This does imply an affinity to Illyrians sensu lato, but this affinity is almost certainly not exclusive to this ancient ethnic group. These haplogroups were likely quite common in the ancient non Greek Balkan world: judging by their (low) frequency in present day Bulgarians, North Macedonians and Romanians, they were probably present in Thracians and Dacians as well (and almost certainly in Dardanians and Moesians). I can accept that some of it may be due to Albanian migrations (especially in North Macedonia), but heck, in Romania? Albanians are unlikely to account for all of it, don't you think?

In sum, I think there is reasonable linguistic, historical and archaeological evidence (albeit quite scant) that protoAlbanians originated somewhere very close to Albania (most probably slightly NorthEast), but not in Albania itself.

I know we are in the Balkans, and there is an obsession with who came where first, but personally, I think if you have been in a certain place for more than a few generations, you have every claim to that land as anyone else. Albanians have every right to their lands like every other sovereign nation and ethnos. Where they descend from is irrelevant, like for every other European nation. Most Greeks are also mixed with Slavs, Albanians, Vlachs and ancient Near Easterners. This does not and should not affect the borders of the Greek Republic.

Plus, Albanians managed to retain the only PalaeoBalkan language besides Greek, their traditions, and ultimately, their genetics, and they did that without the world's biggest Empire helping them to achieve it. And I think this is absolutely impressive and beautiful!

Apologies for the massive post.
I personally believe that, if we are to base it on linguistics, the most likely place of origin for Early Proto-Albanian was the tribal territory of the Dardani. This territory was just north of the Jireček Line, and I think it explains multiple things such as the presence of common words in Albanian and Romanian, as well as the toponyms in this area that show typical Albanian sound changes. However, I think it's clear that there was an early movement of Proto-Albanians into the territory of present day Albania.

In regards to the common words shared between Albanian and Romanian, the consensus seems to be that this is due to loans from Proto-Albanian entering Proto-Romanian, rather than both of these languages sharing a common Paleo-Balkan substrate. However, this does still point towards linguistic contact between the two groups. As stated above, I personally believe this contact to have taken place somewhere around the territory of Dardania, rather than in Moesia to the east.

Quickly want to point out that many scholars actually reject the placement of Thermidava in Albania. Majority seem to suggest that this placement was erroneous and that the settlement was likely located in the Banat region.

As I have mentioned before, the suggestion that the Slavs had settled in Albanian before any Proto-Albanian settlement is simply not feasible when we take into account the fact that Albanian toponyms/hydronyms have been attested in the region prior to any Slavic settlement of the Balkans. Certain toponyms also show, without a doubt, Albanian phonetic developments. However, I will not claim that the whole of Albania was inhabited by Proto-Albanians, and that it was impossible for Slavs to settle in certain regions of the country. I think we can say for certain, that much of the territories that were a part of the Komani-Kruja culture (Mirdita, Mati, Puka etc) were inhabited by Albanians prior to any Slavic settlement.

In regards to the genetic side of things. The specific clusters of R1b-Z2705 and J2b-L283 present among Albanians are without a doubt western Balkan in regards to their origins, this is especially certain for the J2b-L283 clusters. These clusters, such as J2b-PH1751, also bottlenecked within the Albanian ethnos, so its spread can be attributed to the movement of a group of Albanians. We actually have clusters, such as J2b-Y191359, that are found among both Albanians and Romanians. These clusters also have relatively recent TMRCAs (~1,000 ybp in the case of Y191359), so its likely a result of contact with the ancestors of the Albanians.

Sorry if certain parts of this post seem incoherent lol, I am extremely sleepy right now and should probably go to bed :biggrin1:. Though this discussion is certainly an interesting one.

Kelmendasi
12-11-2020, 05:50 AM
What best explains the Albanian-Romanian linguistic relationship? I think this is the one thing that boosts the Daco-Moesian argument, that Albanians were descendants of Daco-Moesians, who were semi-romanized, while Romanians were fully romanized, explaining the words Albanian and Romanian have in common.
Majority of linguists seem to agree that it's the result of Proto-Albanian loanwords entering Proto-Romanian as a result of linguistic contact between the two populations, as opposed to a common substrate.

A good example for this is the Romanian word barz/barză (stork), which in all likeliness is derived from the Proto-Albanian *bardza (white).

Hawk
12-11-2020, 06:37 AM
I recently switched my opinion and rather think the Proto-Illyrians were probably coming from MIddle Danube Urnfield group instead or somewhere in between Middle Danube and Gava horizon?!

https://i.stack.imgur.com/MlMLE.jpg

While the Thracians were formed as a result of more Gava-related groups.

XXD
12-11-2020, 12:49 PM
I personally believe that, if we are to base it on linguistics, the most likely place of origin for Early Proto-Albanian was the tribal territory of the Dardani. This territory was just north of the Jireček Line, and I think it explains multiple things such as the presence of common words in Albanian and Romanian, as well as the toponyms in this area that show typical Albanian sound changes. However, I think it's clear that there was an early movement of Proto-Albanians into the territory of present day Albania.

In regards to the common words shared between Albanian and Romanian, the consensus seems to be that this is due to loans from Proto-Albanian entering Proto-Romanian, rather than both of these languages sharing a common Paleo-Balkan substrate. However, this does still point towards linguistic contact between the two groups. As stated above, I personally believe this contact to have taken place somewhere around the territory of Dardania, rather than in Moesia to the east.

Quickly want to point out that many scholars actually reject the placement of Thermidava in Albania. Majority seem to suggest that this placement was erroneous and that the settlement was likely located in the Banat region.

As I have mentioned before, the suggestion that the Slavs had settled in Albanian before any Proto-Albanian settlement is simply not feasible when we take into account the fact that Albanian toponyms/hydronyms have been attested in the region prior to any Slavic settlement of the Balkans. Certain toponyms also show, without a doubt, Albanian phonetic developments. However, I will not claim that the whole of Albania was inhabited by Proto-Albanians, and that it was impossible for Slavs to settle in certain regions of the country. I think we can say for certain, that much of the territories that were a part of the Komani-Kruja culture (Mirdita, Mati, Puka etc) were inhabited by Albanians prior to any Slavic settlement.

In regards to the genetic side of things. The specific clusters of R1b-Z2705 and J2b-L283 present among Albanians are without a doubt western Balkan in regards to their origins, this is especially certain for the J2b-L283 clusters. These clusters, such as J2b-PH1751, also bottlenecked within the Albanian ethnos, so its spread can be attributed to the movement of a group of Albanians. We actually have clusters, such as J2b-Y191359, that are found among both Albanians and Romanians. These clusters also have relatively recent TMRCAs (~1,000 ybp in the case of Y191359), so its likely a result of contact with the ancestors of the Albanians.

Sorry if certain parts of this post seem incoherent lol, I am extremely sleepy right now and should probably go to bed :biggrin1:. Though this discussion is certainly an interesting one.

Thanks for your very interesting reply!

I would say I agree with you in the following points:

1) Dardania could be the protoAlbanian area, instead of Moesia, why not (in my opinion protoAlbanians inhabited both of these areas, its not like the moment they were in Moesia they immediately went back to Dardania :p ). However, I should also point out, that although Dardanians are often perceived as an Illyrian tribe (which they may have been culturally/genetically), they almost certainly spoke Daco Moesian, as most of their names belong to this language. Other groups, such as Dacians, Getae and Triballians also spoke DacoMoesian. As I said, this area was definitely a melting pot/meeting point of many different ethnic groups. Protoalbanian follows a huge number of phonetic laws in its Latin loanwords that are in perfect accordance only with DacoMoesian. I can provide examples in another post. Again, there is strong evidence that protoAlbanian comes from DacoMoesian. The fact that it can be used to translate some terms of Illyrian, even Messapian, implies that all of these ancient languages (and likely their speakers) were closely related, but not the same.

2) The similarities between protoAlbanian and protoVlach could indeed be attributed to prolonged contact of the two groups (although most linguists suggest they spoke the same protolanguage) in a particular geographical region, and not because of a direct cultural/genetic relationship between the two. However, both of us must admit there is no genetic evidence for either position at the moment, no?

3) I agree that proto Albanians may well have entered Albania earlier than the 700 A.D. (but not earlier than 500 A.D.), again, somewhere slightly North East to the Mat valley (which also makes Dardania as a likely source, as it is next door). Linguists identify the area around the Albanian/Kosovo border. Fits well with Dardania/southern Moesia to me. If that is true, then we have clear evidence of a North Eastern to Southern expansion into modern day Albania. However I stress that it is highly unlikely that the protoAlbanians were always there; I only agree that this is the likely their first entry zone into modern Albania. The Mat valley was in a grey area of the Jirecek line, and populations living there would have received about 50/50 loans of Greek and Latin. Albanian does not follow this pattern.

4) I am neutral regarding the origins of J2b, you know Albanian haplogroups really well. However, I do strongly expect that J2b is going to be present in a large number of palaeoBalkan peoples, such as Dardanians, Pannonians, Moesians and likely Dacians as well. These are related yet distinct peoples. Furthermore, if protoVlachs received J2b from Albanians, why not vice versa? The origin may well be ultimately NorthWest Balkan, but it could have arrived with a proto Illyrian/Dacian/Thracian group, that then split into distinct nations and languages.

So we agree in all the above.

Where I strongly disagree is Slavic toponymy. Most of the Slavic toponyms, especially the ones towards the centre and south (2/3ds of the country), are mostly early Slavic, Serbian like. The newest ones are indeed Bulgarian like, but they are a minority. Most importantly, and I want to stress that, is that in these areas, many Greek or Illyrian names were passed to protoAlbanian through Slavic transmission. This is really not an ambiguous area, its very well identifiable to linguists. So this involves an Illyrian or Greek name, which is first transformed by following Slavic phonetic laws, and then changes again, following protoAlbanian phonetic laws. I gave you in my previous post an example. Another toponym is Dyrrhachium > Dŭračĭ (early Slavic) > Durrės (Albanian). I can provide at least 20 such cases, and I am sure linguists can provide even more. Also, many of the slavic loanwards in Albanian are from really early slavic, not Bulgarian. A huge number of these early slavic loads into Albanian predate the Ghegh/Tosk split, so they must have entered the language very early. Meaning that protoAlbanians and early Slavs interacted very early in their history indeed. Some other examples are here:

41650

I mean, look at the distribution of Slavic toponyms in Albania (see attached), most of which are early Slavic. Of course not all toponyms translate to Slavic settlements, but it is clear that the population must have been huge. Plus in most of these areas, even when habitation is continued, it has a distinctly Slavic character. So Illyrian customs and language are highly unlikely to have survived the invasions. Again, most of these toponyms have been secondarily Albanised, which strongly points to Albanians arriving after the Slavs. If the Slavs had come second, we would have seen a Slavicisation of Albanian toponyms, which certainly does not happen (with the exception of much, much later Bulgarian incursions).

41652

Also, the slavic toponyms in Northern Albania follow early protoAlbanisation, while the ones in the central/South Albanian show a late Albanisation (following Albanian phonetic laws of different periods). So I think there is absolutely no doubt that Albanians first entered Albania somewhere in the North, and then expanded southwards. As Slavs were definitively in Albania by about 600 A.D., most linguists suggests that Albanians must have entered the country a few decades after that.

Another possibility is the following: the Mat valley, does indeed have the lowest number of Slavic toponyms in Albania; yet, it has the highest number of Balkan Romance toponyms (now secondarily Albanised). These are dated to approximately 500 A.D., so if protoAlbanians Albanised them immediately from Romance (not through a Slavic intermediate), then Albanians likely arrived around 550 A.D. In most other areas of Albania, the slavic intermediate dominates, there is no doubt about that. But this is more of a mixed zone.

So I'd say proto Albanians entered Albania sometime between 550/650 A.D.

Most, if not all of the Illyrian major toponyms have been Albanised, which suggests that these words were foreign to protoAlbanians. Illyrian and Albanian have different phonetic laws. For example, we know that Illyrians pronounced one of their major capitals as Scudra, which protoAlbanians renamed into Shkoder, because the Albanian language almost always changes Illyrian/Greek/Latin words that start with Sc/S into Sh e.g. Scampinus > Shkumbin; Sarda > Shurdhah; Drivastum > Drisht. Illyrians transformed Greek and Latin words in a completely different manner than protoAlbanian. So their language really couldn't have been the same.

One thing I also did not explain in more detail, is that protoAlbanian nearly always uses East Balkan Romance for its Latin loanwords. But not always, as a minority is verifiably West Balkan Romance. So this means that protoAlbanians where somewhere North of the Jirecek line, in an area were West Balkan Romance and East Balkan Romance interacted. The two different varieties of Balkan Romance were separated somewhere along the Drin river (see attached image).

41648

So, coastal Montenegro and extreme North Albania would be under the West Balkan Romance influence, while the area around Kosovo and Serbia would have been dominated by East Balkan Romance. Again, the latter point to an area that perfectly matches Dardania and Southern Moesia as the areas of protoAlbanian. So I think we also agree on that.

Therefore, I think there is a strong case, that unlike elsewhere in the Balkans, Albanians were able to dominate and impose their culture on most of the country's Slavicised population. This also took place in Romania, where the protoVlachs imposed their language onto the local Slavs and Goths. I would expect that if Albanians were always in Albania, then they would have way higher slavic Y chromosomes (like what we see in most of Greece). As you told me in our private conversation, slavic Y chromosomes range between 8% and 20% in Albania which is quite low, so most of the significant Slavic admixture in Albanians probably comes from female mediated gene flow. If we examine most other major invasions of the time, I would find it highly unlikely that if the Slavs were the dominant group, they would so openly give their wives to Albanians.

I would not underestimate the power of Albanian tribes. The Vlachs, which similarly lacked sophisticated social organization, actually conquered large parts of Greece very violently in their early history, and they were ferocious raiders in most of Thessaly, killing loads of Greek/Byzantine people who crossed their territories.

XXD
12-11-2020, 01:43 PM
PS. The elephant in the room. Albanian can allow us to reconstruct the etymology of some Illyrian and even Messapian words. However, Albanian allows us to reconstruct the etymology of most DacoMoesian words. Based on parsimony, I think a DacoMoesian affinity to protoAlbanian is very obvious.

For example the DacoMoesian names Γαῦκος and Γαυκίας (found overwhelmingly in DacoMoesian and Thracian territories) are easily etymologised by the protAlbanian gauka (Alb. gak, which means wild boar). These names are also found in inscriptions in colonies settled by DacoMoesians.

Exercitus
12-11-2020, 04:32 PM
xxd
you are wrong about the "dacomoesan" ... keep reading smerdaleos, especially the most recent articles and comments concerning the albanian language !!
you are wrong about the slavic toponymy in Albania, some numbers!!!

41656

Exercitus
12-11-2020, 04:51 PM
copy-paste from elsewhere:
Hi actually, except the etymological issue, concerning the anthroponym - Bard (which, even if we consider trustworthy the phonetic development g* >*dz >*d > dh !, the BARZIDIHI, BARZIDES anthroponyms fits here perfectly as a missing link, knowing that the Messapian language was 'detached' from the Balkanic tongue "Illyrian", at least from the XI century BC ), what really impressed me is the issue of it's distribution, i will give you some wellknown examples;

- Aurelius Bardibalus, Moesia Superiore II century AD (actually is a name with a typical Dacian structure, - balus (Decebalus, Gesubalus etc), but the fact that it contains - bard, suggests an "Illyrian" origin). - Liccae Bardi, the 'Illyrian' in Miseno II century AD
- Aplini Bardurio Pladomeni in Minicipium Riditarium II century AD https://edh-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.d...057890&lang=en
Rider - http://dare.ht.lu.se/places/41974.html
- Bardulos, Messapian - https://i.imgur.com/BgC3UiE.png
- Βαρδύλης \ Bardyli "Illyrian" King IV century BC etc.

so besides these cases - that create the impression that this anthroponym is distributed only in the Delmate and Dardanian inhabited areas as is pointed out in different discussions (for example by Katicic, Papazoglou, Alfoldy etc), in order to exclude the category of "Illyrii proprie dicti" - we also have some extraordinary interestingly examples, that I haven't found anyway quoted, even by the Albanian scholars, to be more concrete, i have encountered in the Greek inscriptions founded mostly in the territory of Ancient Macedonia, - you can check it in this site https://inscriptions.packhum.org/search?patt=bard - , few (- Bard) Anthroponyms, i will list them below;

- Bardi \ Βαρδίας Ἡρακλείδου in Beroia, I century BC https://inscriptions.packhum.org/text/149642?hs=99-104
from the book of A. Tataki "Ancient Prosopography of Beroea and Society" https://helios-eie.ekt.gr/EIE/bitstr.../A01.008.0.pdf , i will quote some fragments;
1- Page 363 up; The foreign names in this group are represented by the Illyrian Βαρδείας\Bardi, which also occurs at Mieza, while the Illyrian Πλευρατος\Pleurat and the Thracian Σιτάλκης both occur again.
2- reference nr 248; . A. Struck, Μ27 (1902) 314 no. 28 line 12. See also I. Russu, EphDac 8 (1938) 179; cf. Krähe, Personennamen 16, Βάρδυλις|Bardyli, and in Thessalonike, Βαρδίων\Bardion, IG Χ 2, 1 781.
3- Page 430; . The former of these names is probably to be connected with the settlement of Illyrians at Beroea and other cities of Macedonia mentioned by Livy, and dated to the period of Antigonos Doson or Philip V.

- Bardi\Βαρδίας Ἡρο.. Mieza\Kopanos II century BC https://inscriptions.packhum.org/text/151190?hs=520-525
- μημόριν Bardio \Βαρδίωνος παλατίνου Mygdonia Thessaloniki V century AD, - in the memory of Bardion* Palatinou - page 142 https://www.persee.fr/doc/bch_0304-2...3_sup_8_1_5246 , https://inscriptions.packhum.org/text/137969?hs=88-93
- eunuch Bardio*, in the service of Emperor Costance II, IV century AD ,https://books.google.it/books?id=f7y...bardio&f=false
- Δημήτριε Βαρδίλεως\Bardyleo* Kyme Aeolis Aegean shore , not dated https://inscriptions.packhum.org/tex...-138%2C218-223

We notice the appearing in the 'Historic Scene' after the 8th century AD, of the Barda (Varda) Armenian anthroponyms - for example, Barda Foka - in the progeny of the Byzantine dynasties of Armenian origin. Also in Gallia, Germany and North Noricum it is rarely encountered the Celtic patronymy (not Anthroponymy !!) -Bard, both Armenian and Celts, were far apart from the geographical and temporal point of view, so that we could attribute to these populations the Anthroponyms with - Bard root !!! The obvious conclusion is that the Bard\Bardio Anthroponyms in Ancient Macedonia were "Illyrian", probably from southern Illyria !!

The second anthroponym, which has a clear and undeniable etymology, are the names with the basis - Ulc\Ulk, without much prolongation by considering also the Toponyms with the basis - Ulc\Ulk that are much more than the Anthroponyms (e.g Ulcinium, Ulcirus mons, Ulcisia Castra, Ulcea pal, Ulcianum etc) and are found exclusively in 'Illyrian-speaking' territories. A list of names as below;

- Ulca Procula, Siscia Pannonia II century AD, page 488 ;https://www.academia.edu/513800/Les_...rits_de_Siscia

- Ulcudius Beadari, Delmatian settler in Alburnus Maior, II century AD, page 115; https://www.academia.edu/2114854/THE...IN_ROMAN_DACIA

- Ουλκ(ου) ∙Τιου \ Ulku - Tiou, years 70-130 AD, a inscription discovered in Dragodan - Historic Thracia - few chilometres far from Ancient Dardania; https://inscriptions.packhum.org/text/301422?hs=83-88

The first name is typical "Illyrian" the second, typical Thracian, for more information about the Daco-Thracian Anthroponomy I suggest the writings of Svetlana Janakieva and Dan Dani !! Just to clarify a few things the name in greek - Οὐλκάκιος - correspond and is letterally the translation of the latin name - Volcacius - , that is why we should not confuse Οὐλκάκιος with Ουλκου - notice carefully the differences - !!

Now about the Eastern & North & South Dardania-Moesia Superior, ethnic composition, few words;

from this site https://edh-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.d...Scupi&start=20 you can check the non-latin -i.e Thracian & Illyrian anthroponymy\ethnicity of the inhabitants of the southern Dardanian\ north-western Paeonia area - Scupi (Skopje-Shkupi), Statio Vizianum & Statio Lamud -(Kumanovo),Lipkovo, Staro Nagoricane, Kacanik etc

Scupi -(Skopje-Shkupi),
- Lumia Andia Dasi* filia ( Illyrian, i will mention it also below!)
- Delus coniux / et Bithus filius ( Thracian )
- Delus Mucati filia ( Thracian )
- Valeria Lysimache marito ( Thracian )
from Viminacium, AD 196
- Marcus Aurelius Dassius* Scupis ( Illyrian )
- Bithus Scupis ( Thracian )
- Dardanus* Longinus et Longus fili ( Illyrian Dardanian )
- Timoni Dassi* decurioni cohortis II Aureliae Dardanorum ( Illyrian Dardanian )
- Scupinorum et Aelia Genthiane** eius ( Illyrian )

Lipkovo ( eastern Scupi )
- Epicadus** Sacerdos ( Illyrian )


Staro Nagoričane ( north-eastern Bederiana !! )
- Gemelinus Dardanos* ( Illyrian Dardanian )


Statio Vizianum & Statio Lamud -(Kumanovo !!)
- Lumia Andia Dasi* filia ( Illyrian )
- Iucunda / Bithi filia ( Thracian )
- Publius Aelius Balli/sta ( Illyrian ?)
in Statio Vizianum & Statio Lamud,
- vectigalis Illyrici* servus contrascriptor stationis / Lamud(---) quam voverat contrascriptor stationis Viziani // Apollonidess Viziani // Gentiano** et Basso consulibus ( Illyrian )
- [------]/thae filius Bessus ( Thracian )


Kacanik ( north of Scupi)
- Ulpius Andinus* / et Aurelia ( Illyrian )
- Deo / Andino* ( Illyrian )

Bujanovac ( Southern Serbia ),
- Ulpia Andia ( Illyrian )

Aranđelovac ( central Serbia\Moesia Superior)
- Pinnes Dasi* vixit annos ( Illyrian)
- Aurelii Dasius* ( Illyrian )

Knjaževac (Timacus Maius & Minus, north-eastern Naissus ),
- Dassius* / veteranus (Illyrian )
- Flavio Bitho ( Thracian )
- Aurelius Bithus veteranus ( Thracian )
In this area in the inscriptions the - Cohors II Aurelia Dardanorum* - is mentioned 19 times ... instead the Cohors Thracorum only 6 times !!


Ražanj ( Dasminium* , Illyrian name of the Town north of Naissus !!)


Niš ( Naissus, Moesia Superior ),
- et Licinio filio Andiae * ( Illyrian )
- Annus Dasi* pater ( Illyrian )
- Gentione* ? qui ( Illyrian )

This is for all those who are convinced that there were No Illyrians in Eastern and North Dardania (Moesia Superior), today Central-south Serbia ...

Kelmendasi
12-11-2020, 04:51 PM
It has been very well established by the vast majority of linguists studying Albanian, that the Geg-Tosk dialect split actually occurred prior to the arrival of the Slavs during the 6th and 7th centuries CE. This is evidenced by how Latin and Greek loans have undergone drastic phonological changes in both dialects, however this is not seen in loanwords from either Slavic or Turkish. The dialectal split is most likely to have taken place sometime right after Christianity had taken root in the region, as shown by how Tosk rhotacism is present in Christian Latin terms. For example, Tosk Albanian murgu (monk) is mungu in Geg Albanian, both stem from the Latin monachus. I also just want to further stress how the attestation of the toponym Mati in Albania by Vibius Sequester, whom was active between the 4th and 5th centuries CE, is an irrevocable proof that the Proto-Albanians were present within the borders of present day Albanian prior to the middle 6th century CE. We still need to work with the historical data, not only linguistic and genetic, and this is clear, concrete, proof.

As for the claim that the region of Mati has the highest concentration of Latin toponyms, could you provide a source supporting this? I am under the impression that this region, and those immediately neighbouring it, have rather low concentrations of Latin place names.

In regards to the genetic evidence of potential contact between the Proto-Albanians and Proto-Romanians, there are a few clusters that potentially testify to this contact. A good one that I also mentioned before is J2b-Y191359 which is currently represented by three Albanians and a couple Romanians - whom I believe bear the last name Basarab. One of the Albanians is from the region of Mati, whilst the other two are from Vlora and Fier in the southwest. They all share a TMRCA of ~1,200-1,000 ybp, so the common ancestor lived during the Early Middle Ages. Another cluster is J2b-Y22894 which on Yfull is made up of a Greek from Thessaloniki and a Croat from Bosnia and Herzegovina. These two share a TMRCA of ~450 ybp, however there are also Romanians and Albanians (from Dibra, Kosovo, Preshevo Valley etc) from this cluster that have not been uploaded, if they were to be uploaded they would push back the TMRCA.

Also I am not too convinced on most of the attested Daco-Thracian or Daco-Mysian words being explained through Albanian. I have personally only seen a few handful.

Kelmendasi
12-11-2020, 04:57 PM
xxd
you are wrong about the "dacomoesan" ... keep reading smerdaleos, especially the most recent articles and comments concerning the albanian language !!
you are wrong about the slavic toponymy in Albania, some numbers!!!

41656
Another visual representation of the percentages of Slavic toponyms in Albania with data taken from Das slavische Lehngut im Albanischen by Xhelal Ylli:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElXevgpXYAAyP8y?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

XXD
12-11-2020, 05:05 PM
xxd
you are wrong about the "dacomoesan" ... keep reading smerdaleos, especially the most recent articles and comments concerning the albanian language !!
you are wrong about the slavic toponymy in Albania, some numbers!!!

41656

I am not sure how this map refutes something from what I said. What you need to explain is:

1) Why Albanian has so few Greek words, and where did it get its East Balkan Romance loan words from

2) Explain to me with linguistic backing (references) why DacoMoesian doesn't work

3) Why Albanians score such high Slavic ancestry if slavic settlement was so low scale

4) Why the vast majority of Illyrian/Latin/Greek toponyms require slavic transmission prior to being albanised.

These are genuine questions accepted by most linguists and historians (excluding nationalist freaks). These are facts, and I think you would agree with them. Therefore, you need to provide reasonable evidence against this if you want to support your argument.

XXD
12-11-2020, 05:08 PM
copy-paste from elsewhere:
Hi actually, except the etymological issue, concerning the anthroponym - Bard (which, even if we consider trustworthy the phonetic development g* >*dz >*d > dh !, the BARZIDIHI, BARZIDES anthroponyms fits here perfectly as a missing link, knowing that the Messapian language was 'detached' from the Balkanic tongue "Illyrian", at least from the XI century BC ), what really impressed me is the issue of it's distribution, i will give you some wellknown examples;

- Aurelius Bardibalus, Moesia Superiore II century AD (actually is a name with a typical Dacian structure, - balus (Decebalus, Gesubalus etc), but the fact that it contains - bard, suggests an "Illyrian" origin). - Liccae Bardi, the 'Illyrian' in Miseno II century AD
- Aplini Bardurio Pladomeni in Minicipium Riditarium II century AD https://edh-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.d...057890&lang=en
Rider - http://dare.ht.lu.se/places/41974.html
- Bardulos, Messapian - https://i.imgur.com/BgC3UiE.png
- Βαρδύλης \ Bardyli "Illyrian" King IV century BC etc.

so besides these cases - that create the impression that this anthroponym is distributed only in the Delmate and Dardanian inhabited areas as is pointed out in different discussions (for example by Katicic, Papazoglou, Alfoldy etc), in order to exclude the category of "Illyrii proprie dicti" - we also have some extraordinary interestingly examples, that I haven't found anyway quoted, even by the Albanian scholars, to be more concrete, i have encountered in the Greek inscriptions founded mostly in the territory of Ancient Macedonia, - you can check it in this site https://inscriptions.packhum.org/search?patt=bard - , few (- Bard) Anthroponyms, i will list them below;

- Bardi \ Βαρδίας Ἡρακλείδου in Beroia, I century BC https://inscriptions.packhum.org/text/149642?hs=99-104
from the book of A. Tataki "Ancient Prosopography of Beroea and Society" https://helios-eie.ekt.gr/EIE/bitstr.../A01.008.0.pdf , i will quote some fragments;
1- Page 363 up; The foreign names in this group are represented by the Illyrian Βαρδείας\Bardi, which also occurs at Mieza, while the Illyrian Πλευρατος\Pleurat and the Thracian Σιτάλκης both occur again.
2- reference nr 248; . A. Struck, Μ27 (1902) 314 no. 28 line 12. See also I. Russu, EphDac 8 (1938) 179; cf. Krähe, Personennamen 16, Βάρδυλις|Bardyli, and in Thessalonike, Βαρδίων\Bardion, IG Χ 2, 1 781.
3- Page 430; . The former of these names is probably to be connected with the settlement of Illyrians at Beroea and other cities of Macedonia mentioned by Livy, and dated to the period of Antigonos Doson or Philip V.

- Bardi\Βαρδίας Ἡρο.. Mieza\Kopanos II century BC https://inscriptions.packhum.org/text/151190?hs=520-525
- μημόριν Bardio \Βαρδίωνος παλατίνου Mygdonia Thessaloniki V century AD, - in the memory of Bardion* Palatinou - page 142 https://www.persee.fr/doc/bch_0304-2...3_sup_8_1_5246 , https://inscriptions.packhum.org/text/137969?hs=88-93
- eunuch Bardio*, in the service of Emperor Costance II, IV century AD ,https://books.google.it/books?id=f7y...bardio&f=false
- Δημήτριε Βαρδίλεως\Bardyleo* Kyme Aeolis Aegean shore , not dated https://inscriptions.packhum.org/tex...-138%2C218-223

We notice the appearing in the 'Historic Scene' after the 8th century AD, of the Barda (Varda) Armenian anthroponyms - for example, Barda Foka - in the progeny of the Byzantine dynasties of Armenian origin. Also in Gallia, Germany and North Noricum it is rarely encountered the Celtic patronymy (not Anthroponymy !!) -Bard, both Armenian and Celts, were far apart from the geographical and temporal point of view, so that we could attribute to these populations the Anthroponyms with - Bard root !!! The obvious conclusion is that the Bard\Bardio Anthroponyms in Ancient Macedonia were "Illyrian", probably from southern Illyria !!

The second anthroponym, which has a clear and undeniable etymology, are the names with the basis - Ulc\Ulk, without much prolongation by considering also the Toponyms with the basis - Ulc\Ulk that are much more than the Anthroponyms (e.g Ulcinium, Ulcirus mons, Ulcisia Castra, Ulcea pal, Ulcianum etc) and are found exclusively in 'Illyrian-speaking' territories. A list of names as below;

- Ulca Procula, Siscia Pannonia II century AD, page 488 ;https://www.academia.edu/513800/Les_...rits_de_Siscia

- Ulcudius Beadari, Delmatian settler in Alburnus Maior, II century AD, page 115; https://www.academia.edu/2114854/THE...IN_ROMAN_DACIA

- Ουλκ(ου) ∙Τιου \ Ulku - Tiou, years 70-130 AD, a inscription discovered in Dragodan - Historic Thracia - few chilometres far from Ancient Dardania; https://inscriptions.packhum.org/text/301422?hs=83-88

The first name is typical "Illyrian" the second, typical Thracian, for more information about the Daco-Thracian Anthroponomy I suggest the writings of Svetlana Janakieva and Dan Dani !! Just to clarify a few things the name in greek - Οὐλκάκιος - correspond and is letterally the translation of the latin name - Volcacius - , that is why we should not confuse Οὐλκάκιος with Ουλκου - notice carefully the differences - !!

Now about the Eastern & North & South Dardania-Moesia Superior, ethnic composition, few words;

from this site https://edh-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.d...Scupi&start=20 you can check the non-latin -i.e Thracian & Illyrian anthroponymy\ethnicity of the inhabitants of the southern Dardanian\ north-western Paeonia area - Scupi (Skopje-Shkupi), Statio Vizianum & Statio Lamud -(Kumanovo),Lipkovo, Staro Nagoricane, Kacanik etc

Scupi -(Skopje-Shkupi),
- Lumia Andia Dasi* filia ( Illyrian, i will mention it also below!)
- Delus coniux / et Bithus filius ( Thracian )
- Delus Mucati filia ( Thracian )
- Valeria Lysimache marito ( Thracian )
from Viminacium, AD 196
- Marcus Aurelius Dassius* Scupis ( Illyrian )
- Bithus Scupis ( Thracian )
- Dardanus* Longinus et Longus fili ( Illyrian Dardanian )
- Timoni Dassi* decurioni cohortis II Aureliae Dardanorum ( Illyrian Dardanian )
- Scupinorum et Aelia Genthiane** eius ( Illyrian )

Lipkovo ( eastern Scupi )
- Epicadus** Sacerdos ( Illyrian )


Staro Nagoričane ( north-eastern Bederiana !! )
- Gemelinus Dardanos* ( Illyrian Dardanian )


Statio Vizianum & Statio Lamud -(Kumanovo !!)
- Lumia Andia Dasi* filia ( Illyrian )
- Iucunda / Bithi filia ( Thracian )
- Publius Aelius Balli/sta ( Illyrian ?)
in Statio Vizianum & Statio Lamud,
- vectigalis Illyrici* servus contrascriptor stationis / Lamud(---) quam voverat contrascriptor stationis Viziani // Apollonidess Viziani // Gentiano** et Basso consulibus ( Illyrian )
- [------]/thae filius Bessus ( Thracian )


Kacanik ( north of Scupi)
- Ulpius Andinus* / et Aurelia ( Illyrian )
- Deo / Andino* ( Illyrian )

Bujanovac ( Southern Serbia ),
- Ulpia Andia ( Illyrian )

Aranđelovac ( central Serbia\Moesia Superior)
- Pinnes Dasi* vixit annos ( Illyrian)
- Aurelii Dasius* ( Illyrian )

Knjaževac (Timacus Maius & Minus, north-eastern Naissus ),
- Dassius* / veteranus (Illyrian )
- Flavio Bitho ( Thracian )
- Aurelius Bithus veteranus ( Thracian )
In this area in the inscriptions the - Cohors II Aurelia Dardanorum* - is mentioned 19 times ... instead the Cohors Thracorum only 6 times !!


Ražanj ( Dasminium* , Illyrian name of the Town north of Naissus !!)


Niš ( Naissus, Moesia Superior ),
- et Licinio filio Andiae * ( Illyrian )
- Annus Dasi* pater ( Illyrian )
- Gentione* ? qui ( Illyrian )

This is for all those who are convinced that there were No Illyrians in Eastern and North Dardania (Moesia Superior), today Central-south Serbia ...

This is so incoherently written that I had to read it 5 times to understand what you are trying to say. If you read my posts, nobody said there were no Illyrians in Dardania or Moesia. I said it was an amazingly mixed area, and it included Illyrians (North Western and Southern), as well as Pannonians, DacoMoesians, and in the first century A.D. it received 150.000 Dacians and Getae (probably a highly inflated number, but the migration was likely real and massive).

XXD
12-11-2020, 05:30 PM
As for the claim that the region of Mati has the highest concentration of Latin toponyms, could you provide a source supporting this? I am under the impression that this region, and those immediately neighbouring it, have rather low concentrations of Latin place names.



You can check John Wilke's The Illyrians, where he provides primary references. The relevant chapter is shown here:

https://smerdaleos.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/wilkes-kruja-komani.png

I like smerdaleos's blog (see above link). I do not agree with him in everything (he has no idea of how human genetics works, although he certainly thinks he does), but I find his linguistic evidence convincing, so I reproduce it here. I have so far not seen anybody, either in Greek or other Balkan commentaries he has made, to effectively refute his linguistic claims.

And most of what he writes are essentially reviews of mainstream opinions of mostly non Balkan linguists and archaeologists, who don't have any incentive to promote antinationalist claims. Unless we go into conspiracy theory grounds and we say there is a hidden agenda against Greek or Albanian nationalists.

I see that most Greek people have a really hard time accepting that Greece received huge migrations from Slavs, Albanians and Vlachs. It breaks their national myth. And I get the feeling that some Albanians also have a really hard time even considering that the Southern Illyrian connection may not make much sense.

I am in no way an expert in linguistics in archaeology, nor I pretend to be.

But the facts 1 to 4 that I mentioned to Exercitus are hard to explain, and if one person does manage to explain them, then they will have solved the problem on the origin of Albanians.

Exercitus
12-11-2020, 05:32 PM
xxd do you understand the albanian language !? read it 5 times more, if you are so eagerly determined to figure out this tricky issue!

Exercitus
12-11-2020, 05:33 PM
https://i.imgur.com/aqA4QOk.jpg

XXD
12-11-2020, 05:41 PM
Exercitus, to make you so irritated, when I have been quite polite (I think at least), it must mean I have really struck a chord. You have not answered some of the 4 questions that most linguists and archaeologists accept. I think these 4 points should have been fairly uncontroversial.

What Matzinger says in uncontroversial. Albanian may be related to Illyrian and Messapic, which is something I have not refuted a single time in my posts. So what? Greek and Phrygian are probably related, this does not mean they are the same people.

Modern Greek is clearly a descendant of Attic Greek. Southern Illyrian and protoAlbanian likely do not have this relationship. Just explain to me why 40% of your language has Latin loanwords, when we know that almost all of what is now modern Albania was (at least) bilingual in Illyrian and Greek.

XXD
12-11-2020, 05:44 PM
Not sure if there is any point for me to continue if there a war is going to be triggered on this thread. I would like to thank Kelmendasi for his input, I learned a lot, as I am sure all of us did.

I will read with great interest what all of you think about the points I reproduced here (which are not my conclusions, I am not a linguist).

XXD
12-11-2020, 06:10 PM
It has been very well established by the vast majority of linguists studying Albanian, that the Geg-Tosk dialect split actually occurred prior to the arrival of the Slavs during the 6th and 7th centuries CE. This is evidenced by how Latin and Greek loans have undergone drastic phonological changes in both dialects, however this is not seen in loanwords from either Slavic or Turkish. The dialectal split is most likely to have taken place sometime right after Christianity had taken root in the region, as shown by how Tosk rhotacism is present in Christian Latin terms. For example, Tosk Albanian murgu (monk) is mungu in Geg Albanian, both stem from the Latin monachus. I also just want to further stress how the attestation of the toponym Mati in Albania by Vibius Sequester, whom was active between the 4th and 5th centuries CE, is an irrevocable proof that the Proto-Albanians were present within the borders of present day Albanian prior to the middle 6th century CE. We still need to work with the historical data, not only linguistic and genetic, and this is clear, concrete, proof.

As for the claim that the region of Mati has the highest concentration of Latin toponyms, could you provide a source supporting this? I am under the impression that this region, and those immediately neighbouring it, have rather low concentrations of Latin place names.

In regards to the genetic evidence of potential contact between the Proto-Albanians and Proto-Romanians, there are a few clusters that potentially testify to this contact. A good one that I also mentioned before is J2b-Y191359 which is currently represented by three Albanians and a couple Romanians - whom I believe bear the last name Basarab. One of the Albanians is from the region of Mati, whilst the other two are from Vlora and Fier in the southwest. They all share a TMRCA of ~1,200-1,000 ybp, so the common ancestor lived during the Early Middle Ages. Another cluster is J2b-Y22894 which on Yfull is made up of a Greek from Thessaloniki and a Croat from Bosnia and Herzegovina. These two share a TMRCA of ~450 ybp, however there are also Romanians and Albanians (from Dibra, Kosovo, Preshevo Valley etc) from this cluster that have not been uploaded, if they were to be uploaded they would push back the TMRCA.

Also I am not too convinced on most of the attested Daco-Thracian or Daco-Mysian words being explained through Albanian. I have personally only seen a few handful.

Thank you for this post, which makes a lot of sense, especially the linguistic data you discuss about the Gheg/Tosk split. I think the Y chromosome data you suggest also make a lot of sense. So it seems that there was more gene flow from Albanians into Vlachs and not vice versa? But how can we be sure that this particular J2b-Y191359 mutation did not enter Albanians through Vlachs, as around 1000 years ago they started appearing in the Southern Balkans?

This is very interesting indeed.

Kelmendasi
12-11-2020, 06:12 PM
You can check John Wilke's The Illyrians, where he provides primary references. The relevant chapter is shown here:

https://smerdaleos.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/wilkes-kruja-komani.png

I like smerdaleos's blog (see above link). I do not agree with him in everything (he has no idea of how human genetics works, although he certainly thinks he does), but I find his linguistic evidence convincing, so I reproduce it here. I have so far not seen anybody, either in Greek or other Balkan commentaries he has made, to effectively refute his linguistic claims.

And most of what he writes are essentially reviews of mainstream opinions of mostly non Balkan linguists and archaeologists, who don't have any incentive to promote antinationalist claims. Unless we go into conspiracy theory grounds and we say there is a hidden agenda against Greek or Albanian nationalists.

I see that most Greek people have a really hard time accepting that Greece received huge migrations from Slavs, Albanians and Vlachs. It breaks their national myth. And I get the feeling that Albanians also have a really hard time even considering that the Southern Illyrian connection may not make much sense.

I am in no way an expert in linguistics in archaeology, nor I pretend to be.

But the facts 1 to 4 that I mentioned to Exercitus are hard to explain, and if one person does manage to explain them, then they will have solved the problem on the origin of Albanians.
Thanks for the link. I will try and look into any sources that directly cover the topic of Latin toponyms in Albania, this would obviously be a lot more informative, and it seems that Wilkes himself states that only 'some' Latin place names are found in the Black Drin and Mati valleys.

Personally I believe that each of the theories in regards to the origins of the Albanians have their own merits, but also contradictions and faults. I am under the impression that the only way to tackle this question is by conducting a large genetic study on ancient remains from Albania and the surrounding areas where the Proto-Albanians may have come from. I doubt we will find inscriptions or linguistic materials that will solve this problem anytime soon.

Kelmendasi
12-11-2020, 06:17 PM
Thank you for this post, which makes a lot of sense, especially the linguistic data you discuss about the Gheg/Tosk split. I think the Y chromosome data you suggest also make a lot of sense. So it seems that there was more gene flow from Albanians into Vlachs and not vice versa? But how can we be sure that this particular J2b-Y191359 mutation did not enter Albanians through Vlachs, as around 1000 years ago they started appearing in the Southern Balkans?

This is very interesting indeed.
So far I believe J2b-Y191359 has only been found in Romanians and Albanians, rather than in the Aromanians or Romance-speakers south of the Danube. The TMRCA, who lived around the Early Medieval, in my opinion could have only been a Proto-Albanian or Proto-Romanian. Given the nature that the Proto-Romanians adopted various Proto-Albanian loanwords and the fact that J2b-L283 clusters as a whole are more predominant and diverse among Albanians, I think it's possible that this is a case of assimilation by the Proto-Romanians. However, it is also possible that it was the other way round. Hard to say with certainty.

gjenetiks
12-11-2020, 07:26 PM
I hate to change the subject, but why do some (a lot of Greek nationalists) consider Skanderbeg to be paternally Greek? I know his surname has origin from the Greek word (kastro), also in his letter to Prince Giovanni of Taranto he refers to his elders (our elders he says), as Epirotes, where Pyrrhus came from, and his helmet does has have a resemblance to the helmet of Phyrrhus.

But IIRC, Epirote/Epirotan was another term used to describe Albanian? Also Albanian bishop and writer, Frang Bardhi, titled his 1635 Latino-Albanian dictionary as Latin-Epiroticum. Also in the letter to Prince of Taranto, it writes, "Ioannes Antonius princeps Tarenti Georgio Albano salutem", but (what is Ioannes here?).

I'll get back to talking about the origin of Albanians after this is discussed because it's very interesting.

Greekscholar
12-11-2020, 07:48 PM
I hate to change the subject, but why do some (a lot of Greek nationalists) consider Skanderbeg to be paternally Greek? I know his surname has origin from the Greek word (kastro), also in his letter to Prince Giovanni of Taranto he refers to his elders (our elders he says), as Epirotes, where Pyrrhus came from, and his helmet does has have a resemblance to the helmet of Phyrrhus.

But IIRC, Epirote/Epirotan was another term used to describe Albanian? Also Albanian bishop and writer, Frang Bardhi, titled his 1635 Latin-Albanian dictionary as Latin-Epiroticum. Also in the letter to Prince of Taranto, it writes, "Ioannes Antonius princeps Tarenti Georgio Albano salutem", but (what is Ioannes here?).

I'll get back to talking about the origin of Albanians after this is discussed because it's very interesting.

Ioannes is the Greek version of the name "John" if that is what you mean.

gjenetiks
12-11-2020, 07:51 PM
Ioannes is the Greek version of the name "John" if that is what you mean.

Yeah I knew that, just wondering what does Ioannes mean in that context vs Giorgio?

Kelmendasi
12-12-2020, 12:22 AM
I hate to change the subject, but why do some (a lot of Greek nationalists) consider Skanderbeg to be paternally Greek? I know his surname has origin from the Greek word (kastro), also in his letter to Prince Giovanni of Taranto he refers to his elders (our elders he says), as Epirotes, where Pyrrhus came from, and his helmet does has have a resemblance to the helmet of Phyrrhus.

But IIRC, Epirote/Epirotan was another term used to describe Albanian? Also Albanian bishop and writer, Frang Bardhi, titled his 1635 Latino-Albanian dictionary as Latin-Epiroticum. Also in the letter to Prince of Taranto, it writes, "Ioannes Antonius princeps Tarenti Georgio Albano salutem", but (what is Ioannes here?).

I'll get back to talking about the origin of Albanians after this is discussed because it's very interesting.
I believe this is because of the fact that the Kastrioti family name is of Greek etymology; from the Greek kastro (κάστρο), however its ultimate origin is from the Latin castrum (military camp or fortification). I believe some of them also take the identification with the Epirotes too seriously, without looking at the context. It is pretty clear that during this time period - and in later centuries - 'Epirote' was synonymous with Albanians, as you pointed out with the Albanian Catholic bishop Frang Bardhi naming his dictionary the Dictionarium latino-epiroticum .

The original family name of the Kastrioti was likely not Kastrioti anyways, we know from historical sources that they also used the name Mazarek/Mazreku which is a tribal or patronym of clear Albanian etymology that was found across Albanian-speaking regions during the Medieval. I believe this was their original family name.

Kelmendasi
12-12-2020, 12:26 AM
Yeah I knew that, just wondering what does Ioannes mean in that context vs Giorgio?
In this case Ioannes Antonius princeps Tarenti was the Prince of Taranto, Giovanni Antonio Del Balzo Orisini, whom Skanderbeg was rivalled to as a result of his alliance with Ferdinand I of Naples.

Skanderbeg was the one referred to as Georgio Albano.

gjenetiks
12-12-2020, 12:39 AM
I believe this is because of the fact that the Kastrioti family name is of Greek etymology; from the Greek kastro (κάστρο), however its ultimate origin is from the Latin castrum (military camp or fortification). I believe some of them also take the identification with the Epirotes too seriously, without looking at the context. It is pretty clear that during this time period - and in later centuries - 'Epirote' was synonymous with Albanians, as you pointed out with the Albanian Catholic bishop Frang Bardhi naming his dictionary the Dictionarium latino-epiroticum .

The original family name of the Kastrioti was likely not Kastrioti anyways, we know from historical sources that they also used the name Mazarek/Mazreku which is a tribal or patronym of clear Albanian etymology that was found across Albanian-speaking regions during the Medieval. I believe this was their original family name.

Yeah, I believe Constantine Kastrioti, also had the name Meserechus (Mazarek/Mazreku) which was Albanian. German historian Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer calls Mazarek a name of Serbian origin, but I think he's wrong. There was also an Albanian nobleman/vojvoda in the Serbian Despotate named Mazarek, who iirc was an Serbianized Albanian. The name looks clearly of Albanian origins.

But I still find it odd that he's insinuated an Epirotan connection, and that his helmet was very similar to that of Phyrrhus the Greek king of Epirus. Though in that letter he says "moreover you scorn our people, claiming the Albanese as nothing more than sheep", he's more than likely talking about a single ethnic group here i.e. Albanians.

Kelmendasi
12-12-2020, 12:58 AM
Yeah, I believe Constantine Kastrioti, also had the name Meserechus (Mazarek/Mazreku) which was Albanian. German historian Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer calls Mazarek a name of Serbian origin, but I think he's wrong. There was also an Albanian nobleman/vojvoda in the Serbian Despotate named Mazarek, who iirc was an Serbianized Albanian. The name looks clearly of Albanian origins.

But I still find it odd that he's insinuated an Epirotan connection, and that his helmet was very similar to that of Phyrrhus the Greek king of Epirus. Though in that letter he says "moreover you scorn our people, claiming the Albanese as nothing more than sheep", he's more than likely talking about a single ethnic group here i.e. Albanians.
Yes, Konstantin Kastrioti was also known by the name Mazarek (Constantinus Castriotus Meserechus). Fallmerayer's claim that the name is of Serbian origin is certainly false and inaccurate, and to be honest I am not sure what he was basing this claim on. We have clear evidence that this was an Albanian anthroponym and tribal name.

I assume the ancestral link to the ancient Epirotes was assumed due to the fact that the Albanians lived in a territory that was partially inhabited to the south by the Epirotic tribes, as well as a part of the former Roman province of Epirus Nova. Also a tie to notable figures such as Phyrrhus of Epirus, whom incidentally also had campaigns in the Italian Peninsula, would have made Skanderbeg seem more prestigious. There is no doubt that 'Epirote' during this time period was a synonym for the Albanians. There was also a comedic play from the year 1483 written by the Venetian noble and playwright Tommaso de Mezzo called 'The Epirote' (Epirota), where the 'Epirote' was in fact an Albanian. In this comedy the 'Epirote' character clearly speaks in Albanian (a dialect of Old Tosk) at one point stating; 'Trėmburė tė kloftė golja' (Dramburi te clofto goglie) or 'May your mouth tremble' in English.

gjenetiks
12-12-2020, 01:23 AM
Yes, Konstantin Kastrioti was also known by the name Mazarek (Constantinus Castriotus Meserechus). Fallmerayer's claim that the name is of Serbian origin is certainly false and inaccurate, and to be honest I am not sure what he was basing this claim on. We have clear evidence that this was an Albanian anthroponym and tribal name.

I assume the ancestral link to the ancient Epirotes was assumed due to the fact that the Albanians lived in a territory that was partially inhabited to the south by the Epirotic tribes, as well as a part of the former Roman province of Epirus Nova. Also a tie to notable figures such as Phyrrhus of Epirus, whom incidentally also had campaigns in the Italian Peninsula, would have made Skanderbeg seem more prestigious. There is no doubt that 'Epirote' during this time period was a synonym for the Albanians. There was also a comedic play from the year 1483 written by the Venetian noble and playwright Tommaso de Mezzo called 'The Epirote' (Epirota), where the 'Epirote' was in fact an Albanian. In this comedy the 'Epirote' character clearly speaks in Albanian (a dialect of Old Tosk) at one point stating; 'Trėmburė tė kloftė golja' (Dramburi te clofto goglie) or 'May your mouth tremble' in English.

Very interesting, wondering though why he didn't choose a hardened Plis vs a horned goat - Phyrrus-like helmet that he wore. Anyway both are badass and he was badass hero of our people. It also seems undoubtable that Epirotes were a synonym of Albanians at the time if we look at all historical artifacts and texts at our disposal. Also to be sure, Meserechus was an additional surname of the Kastrioti? It'd be interesting to delve further and find out his original surname, whether it was Mazreku or Kastrioti.

I appreciate the insight as always Kelmendasi.

Kelmendasi
12-12-2020, 01:53 AM
Very interesting, wondering though why he didn't choose a hardened Plis vs a horned goat - Phyrrus-like helmet that he wore. Anyway both are badass and he was badass hero of our people. It also seems undoubtable that Epirotes were a synonym of Albanians at the time if we look at all historical artifacts and texts at our disposal. Also to be sure, Meserechus was an additional surname of the Kastrioti? It'd be interesting to delve further and find out his original surname, whether it was Mazreku or Kastrioti.

I appreciate the insight as always Kelmendasi.
The symbol of the horned goat or ram could be an attempt to connect to Alexander the Great whom is depicted on certain coinages with the 'Horns of Ammon'. However, the goat - especially the golden horned goat - does appear in Albanian folk traditions and symbols and so it could just be linked to that. Though from what I know, Pyrrhus of Epirus was not always depicted as wearing a horned helmet, however some do state that his helmet was decorated with horns.

Yes, Mazarek or Mazreku was another family name for the Kastrioti, Skanderbeg himself was also known by this name. I personally believe that this name was their original name with Kastrioti coming later. We can see similar trends with other Albanian noble families, for example the Dukagjini probably started calling themselves that after their progenitor Gjin Tanushi whom bore the title dux (ducam Ginium Tanuschium Albanensem). In one document they also used the name Perlati, however it is also possible that the Dukagjini were related to the older Progoni family that ruled the Principality of Arbanon.

gjenetiks
12-12-2020, 05:40 AM
Speaking of Epirote as a synonym for Albanian during the Middle Ages, I just found that Pope Pius II, head of Catholic Church and ruler of Papal States at the time, looks like didn't consider Epirotes and Albanians to be the same people:

Excerpt from a collection of Pope Pius II orations pg. 137 (https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01707661/document):

If Philippe agrees to Our wish, he will not come without a great and strong company. Many
will follow this noble prince. The King of France will be ashamed not to send [at least] 10.000
soldiers since he has [already] promised 70.000. Many volunteers will come from Germany,
England, and Spain. The Hungarians cannot fail to come as it is in their own vital interest. And
when they see such great preparations, the Venetians will not refuse their fleet. In Asia,
Caramannus and others who fear Mehmed’s power will undoubtedly take up arms. The
Epirotes, the Albanians, the Bosnians, the Rascians, the Wallachians and the Bulgarians will
rear their horns when they see the Christians reclaim Greece with so large forces.

XXD
12-12-2020, 02:50 PM
Thanks for the link. I will try and look into any sources that directly cover the topic of Latin toponyms in Albania, this would obviously be a lot more informative, and it seems that Wilkes himself states that only 'some' Latin place names are found in the Black Drin and Mati valleys.

Personally I believe that each of the theories in regards to the origins of the Albanians have their own merits, but also contradictions and faults. I am under the impression that the only way to tackle this question is by conducting a large genetic study on ancient remains from Albania and the surrounding areas where the Proto-Albanians may have come from. I doubt we will find inscriptions or linguistic materials that will solve this problem anytime soon.

I completely agree with everything you say! Thank you again for your invaluable insights on this fascinating topic!

XXD
12-12-2020, 02:57 PM
I hate to change the subject, but why do some (a lot of Greek nationalists) consider Skanderbeg to be paternally Greek? I know his surname has origin from the Greek word (kastro), also in his letter to Prince Giovanni of Taranto he refers to his elders (our elders he says), as Epirotes, where Pyrrhus came from, and his helmet does has have a resemblance to the helmet of Phyrrhus.

But IIRC, Epirote/Epirotan was another term used to describe Albanian? Also Albanian bishop and writer, Frang Bardhi, titled his 1635 Latino-Albanian dictionary as Latin-Epiroticum. Also in the letter to Prince of Taranto, it writes, "Ioannes Antonius princeps Tarenti Georgio Albano salutem", but (what is Ioannes here?).

I'll get back to talking about the origin of Albanians after this is discussed because it's very interesting.

Generally Skanderbeg is almost unknown in Greece. However, as you say, Greek nationalists try to appropriate Skanderbeg as "their" hero, and they do the same with Spartacus, for example. Most Greeks really do not know that almost all of what is now Greek Thrace was occupied in the past by a non Greek people.

Regarding Skanderbeg, I have wasted so much time in some Greek forums trying to convince Greek nationalists that there is no way that he was Greek. They say that he was born in Greek Imathia, and that the Albanians try to steal him from us and say that he was born in Mat :P

On the other hand, some Albanian nationalists try to appropriate some heroes from what is now Greece (e.g. Alexander the Great, Pyrrhus, even most of the non Albanian revolutionaries of 1821).

So I guess nationalists of all sides don't really make sense, and they are not so willing to learn.

XXD
12-12-2020, 03:00 PM
Yes, Konstantin Kastrioti was also known by the name Mazarek (Constantinus Castriotus Meserechus). Fallmerayer's claim that the name is of Serbian origin is certainly false and inaccurate, and to be honest I am not sure what he was basing this claim on. We have clear evidence that this was an Albanian anthroponym and tribal name.

I assume the ancestral link to the ancient Epirotes was assumed due to the fact that the Albanians lived in a territory that was partially inhabited to the south by the Epirotic tribes, as well as a part of the former Roman province of Epirus Nova. Also a tie to notable figures such as Phyrrhus of Epirus, whom incidentally also had campaigns in the Italian Peninsula, would have made Skanderbeg seem more prestigious. There is no doubt that 'Epirote' during this time period was a synonym for the Albanians. There was also a comedic play from the year 1483 written by the Venetian noble and playwright Tommaso de Mezzo called 'The Epirote' (Epirota), where the 'Epirote' was in fact an Albanian. In this comedy the 'Epirote' character clearly speaks in Albanian (a dialect of Old Tosk) at one point stating; 'Trėmburė tė kloftė golja' (Dramburi te clofto goglie) or 'May your mouth tremble' in English.

Do you think that many of the Mazarek Albanians could have also migrated to Greece? The surname Mazarakis is quite common in some areas:

https://apps.vrisko.gr/apo-pou-krataei-i-skoufia-sou/%ce%bc%ce%b1%ce%b6%ce%b1%cf%81%ce%b1%ce%ba%ce%b7%c f%82

Except if some Arvanites adopted the surname for prestige?

trdbr1234
12-12-2020, 04:32 PM
Appropriation of Skanderbeg by Greek nationals is not equitable to the appropriation of antiquity figures. Greece and Greek tribes, Illyrians, Dardanians, Epirotans, Macedonians, and Thracians, all died out. None of the modern Balkan nations have continuity with any of these people. We are all a product of modern nationalism movements. Any claim to any of these people, figures, or deeds, IS a product of modern nationalism.

In saying that, as Kelmendasi noted, Epirotan was synonymous with Albanians in the Middle ages, which predates modern nationalist movements. Albanian claims to Pyrrhus are more valid than Greek ones, even-though both are ultimately wrong because these people died out and it is nonsensical to lay claim to them.

gjenetiks
12-12-2020, 07:14 PM
Do you think that many of the Mazarek Albanians could have also migrated to Greece? The surname Mazarakis is quite common in some areas:

https://apps.vrisko.gr/apo-pou-krataei-i-skoufia-sou/%ce%bc%ce%b1%ce%b6%ce%b1%cf%81%ce%b1%ce%ba%ce%b7%c f%82

Except if some Arvanites adopted the surname for prestige?

Yeah apparently the Mazarek/Mazreku is one of many Albanian families who migrated to Greece, --> Arvanites. Mazreku is Northern Albanian Gheg IIRC. I wonder how many Arvanites descend from Gheg Albanian origins/families.

gjenetiks
12-14-2020, 09:19 PM
23andme v5 still suffers the same problems it always did on Gedmatch no? I downloaded fresh raw data, uploaded it to GEDmatch and got the same results as a couple years ago, maybe minor minor changes. I think when I converted to v3 my result was more accurate and I got more SNPS (100,000+) compared to 59k with v5, but v3 conversion is still erroneous, like most conversions will be.

The best data for G25 is probably Ancestry and FTDNA. 23andme is ass.

Zanatis
12-15-2020, 03:07 AM
I am not sure how this map refutes something from what I said. What you need to explain is:

1) Why Albanian has so few Greek words, and where did it get its East Balkan Romance loan words from

2) Explain to me with linguistic backing (references) why DacoMoesian doesn't work

3) Why Albanians score such high Slavic ancestry if slavic settlement was so low scale

4) Why the vast majority of Illyrian/Latin/Greek toponyms require slavic transmission prior to being albanised.

These are genuine questions accepted by most linguists and historians (excluding nationalist freaks). These are facts, and I think you would agree with them. Therefore, you need to provide reasonable evidence against this if you want to support your argument.
1) Why should Albanian have many Greek words when Rome was the absolute ruler of most of Europe and the Illyrian became Roman citizens? This is the most idiotic argument the “linguist” could ever provide, together with the “lack of maritime words” one.

2) How about you explain with references the Daco-Moesian link as well as list those scholars whom you follow and claim to be in majority of the opinion that the Albanians are Daco-Moesians.

3) Albanians don’t score such high Slavic ancestry at all, and definitely not as much as Northern Greeks. I’m sure you’ve seen before the picture below. Look where the Iron Age Bulgarian is and how close to the Albanians he is (who’re just slightly East of Tuscans). Where’s the supposed high Slavic admixture? Only from some unreliable and amateur calculators.
41724

4) This is rather a ridiculous theory and you ought to provide some undisputed scientific evidence that Albanians Albanised previously Slavicized toponyms.

Does this answer any of the questions?
41725

If anything, this fact creates the possibility of the theory that the very early Dorians were Hellenised Illyrians who spoke initially a creole language and were fully Hellenised with time, with Doric being a version of how Illyrians spoke Hellenic due to their accent.

Another thing for you to consider is that there was indeed a migration from Moesia and Dardania into modern Albania, but that migration didn’t introduce Albanian into the Latin and Slavic (this is ridiculous) population, but rather to an existing Albanoid dialect.

Any Albanian that read the Meshari i Gjon Buzukut understands that his dialect (Albanian from Montenegro) was clearly more Tosk-related than Kosovo Albanian, therefore we’re dealing with a Coastal West Albanian vs Hinterland East Albanian. The latter influenced the dialects of modern Albanian a lot, influencing even modern Tosk of South Albania (especially Lab), which brought Tosk and Arvanitika quite apart.

One among numerous characteristics is the verb “is” which in the West/Coastal Albanian was “isht”, whereas the modern versions are āsht, ōsht, ėshtė, esht. Interestingly, modern Albanians of Coastal Montenegro still use “isht”, as do some Labs, Chams, and all the Arvanites, while the majority of Ghegs and Tosks of modern Albania got Eastern version.

On top of that, many Albanian tribes are aware of their ancestors origins and having said that, many North-Western Albanian tribes claim to originate from further North and North-West, specifically from Montenegro and Herzegovina. We know that Albanian was spoken in Dalmatia in the 1300s as well.

Are you saying these Daco-Moesians assimilated the recently Slavicized Dalmatians, Zetans, people from Albania, North Macedonia, Epirus, then went to to colonize Western Macedonia, Thessaly, Aetolia, Attiki, and even pour into Peloponnese and the Aegean islands?

Don’t you see that we’re dealing with an extremely numerous local population that was pushed South from the Slavs so much that it ended up colonizing the entire Greece?

Does it look like the work of a bunch of non-sophisticated Moesian tribes from 550 A.D.?

Kelmendasi
12-15-2020, 04:42 AM
Wanted to quickly note that in the Meshari by Gjon Buzuku, the form 'anshtė' is used for 'is' in a number of sections. This form for example was used in the section on the parable of the weeds. This form is also seen in the texts written by the Catholic priest Pjetėr Bogdani who certainly spoke a dialect of Northeastern Geg. 'Ashtė' is present in the Dictionarium latino-epiroticum by the Albanian Catholic bishop Frang Bardhi, who spoke a Northwestern Geg dialect.

gjenetiks
12-15-2020, 05:48 AM
Wanted to quickly note that in the Meshari by Gjon Buzuku, the form 'anshtė' is used for 'is' in a number of sections. This form for example was used in the section on the parable of the weeds. This form is also seen in the texts written by the Catholic priest Pjetėr Bogdani who certainly spoke a dialect of Northeastern Geg. 'Ashtė' is present in the Dictionarium latino-epiroticum by the Albanian Catholic bishop Frang Bardhi, who spoke a Northwestern Geg dialect.

Was Buzuku even from Shestan or was he just born there? There are no recorded Buzuku's in Albanian inhabited areas of Montenegro today...that I know of.

Zanatis
12-15-2020, 11:30 AM
Wanted to quickly note that in the Meshari by Gjon Buzuku, the form 'anshtė' is used for 'is' in a number of sections. This form for example was used in the section on the parable of the weeds. This form is also seen in the texts written by the Catholic priest Pjetėr Bogdani who certainly spoke a dialect of Northeastern Geg. 'Ashtė' is present in the Dictionarium latino-epiroticum by the Albanian Catholic bishop Frang Bardhi, who spoke a Northwestern Geg dialect.
Correct, ānsht is still used by the Malesia people nowadays and it’s one of the characteristics that differentiates them from the anas local dialect.

Speaking a North-Western dialect means absolutely nothing as even people within Dukagjin speak differently from each other, and different from the lowlands or city of Shkodra. Lezha too is different from Shkodra, as is Malesia e Madhe, as is Kelmendi from Hoti, as is Plava and Gucia from Malesia, Uqin, Ana Malit, and so on.

You can spot where everyone is from with just 1 sentence, which in many cases you won’t even understand it’s North-Western.

Exercitus
12-15-2020, 12:26 PM
https://i.imgur.com/v1Zg6a7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/e2jNfrn.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/u0q8YXd.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/FGCSTyc.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/hH5m7Jn.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/7LgXLMT.jpg

Exercitus
12-15-2020, 12:32 PM
https://i.imgur.com/9ATlCYm.png


https://i.imgur.com/G08iseI.jpg

Exercitus
12-15-2020, 12:49 PM
https://www.academia.edu/42749206/BR%C4%82ILA_%C8%8AN_PRIMUL_REGISTRU_OTOMAN_DE_RECE NS%C4%82M%C3%82NT_CUNOSCUT_1570_


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C4%83ila

Sorcelow
12-15-2020, 03:32 PM
https://i.imgur.com/v1Zg6a7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/e2jNfrn.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/u0q8YXd.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/FGCSTyc.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/hH5m7Jn.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/7LgXLMT.jpg

It seems that those cognates are probably shared Indo-European words, rather than direct Greek loanwords into Albanian, no? In any case, I dont see there being few direct Greek loanwords into Albanian as a reason to think that proto-Albanian evolved anywhere other than modern day Albania. I think it makes sense, actually. There are a number of mountain ranges, including the Acroceraunian, that separate old Epirus from Epirus Nova. Undoubtedly, the region's difficult geography would have restricted contact between the Greek world in the south and the Illyrian in the north.

gjenetiks
12-15-2020, 06:22 PM
I think the theory of Albanians coming from north of Jirecek line seems more plausible to me. It's obvious we have way more latin influence in our language than Greek, and the region of Dardania, was definitively an area where there was more latin influence. If we presided well in Illyrian (modern day Albanian) territory, I don't see how our language does not get heavily hellenized. I think we came from Dardania into what is today modern day Albania.

If this is all true, it would mean modern day Kosovo region, and surrounding areas would literally be the most important region in terms of history, culture, and significance for the Albanian people.

Johane Derite
12-15-2020, 08:13 PM
Not sure how much this has been touched before, but I would like to express what I think should be done to conclusively prove the origins of Albanians.

I would like to say that I feel a deep connection with my Albanian neighbours, and I believe that their history and traditions are among the most interesting of Europe, and of immense importance for Indoeuropean studies. I would also like to say that I do not support any Greek nationalist propaganda or anything of the sort. Both of our countries roots are very mixed, and discovering how these processes took place is fascinating.

First, I would like to list what we know with a fair amount of certainty:

1) Linguistic origins and affinities of the Albanian language.

The Albanian language is almost certainly not descended from Illyrian proper (i.e. the Illyrian populations living in what is now Albania). The very high number of Latin loanwords (40% !) suggest that proto Albanian evolved North of the Jirecek line. On the contrary, Illyrians proper had been highly Hellenised culturally and likely genetically early in their history, and would not have been so heavily Latinized. The number of Greek loanwords in Albanian is surprisingly low.

Furthermore, there is an enormous number of protoAlbanian and protoVlach isoglosses, which suggest that the two peoples were in close proximity in the past. This is the opinion most major albanologists/vlachologists, (e.g. John Bassett Trumper). They postulate that based on linguistic and historiographical data, the geographical area occupied by protoAlbanians would have been somewhere in Moesia. Therefore, proto Albanians may have descended partially or entirely from Moesians. They postulate that proto Albanians entered modern Albania some time after 500 AD.

You can read more about this here (using google translate):

https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/2013/11/21/%ce%bf%ce%b9-%ce%b3%ce%bb%cf%89%cf%83%cf%83%ce%b9%ce%ba%ce%bf%c e%af-%cf%80%cf%81%cf%8c%ce%b3%ce%bf%ce%bd%ce%bf%ce%b9-%cf%84%cf%89%ce%bd-%ce%b1%ce%bb%ce%b2%ce%b1%ce%bd%cf%8e%ce%bd-%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9/

https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/2013/11/21/%ce%bf%ce%b9-%ce%b3%ce%bb%cf%89%cf%83%cf%83%ce%b9%ce%ba%ce%bf%c e%af-%cf%80%cf%81%cf%8c%ce%b3%ce%bf%ce%bd%ce%bf%ce%b9-%cf%84%cf%89%ce%bd-%ce%b1%ce%bb%ce%b2%ce%b1%ce%bd%cf%8e%ce%bd-%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-2/

These are good summaries by a Greek linguist and fanatic anti Greek nationalist, so I don't think he has any foul play here. In these articles, there are also links to the original talks given by these specialists.

2) What happened to the Illyrians of current Albania?

During the Slavic invasions (6th and 7th centuries A.D.), we lose all mentions of "proper" Illyrians (excluding later anachronisms). Many archaeological sites and major cities show abandonment, while others show continued habitation. It is possible that a large part of the population perished, intermixed and/or moved to more mountainous regions. I am fairly certain that by the time proto Albanians entered modern Albania, the Illyrian population must have been heavily slavicised, both culturally and genetically. In other former Illyrian lands (e.g. Croatia, Bosnia) we see that there was more than 70% autosomal replacement, with pockets of less admixed Illyrians surviving only in small coastal enclaves, likely evolving to become the Morlak Vlachs.

Toponymic data suggest that the Slavic population of Albania was massive, especially.mostly in the South. I expect that due to some advantage (probably military, tactical, mode of life), the proto Albanians were able to dominate the local palaeoBalkan admixed Slavs, and to spread their language and genes. This also happened with protoVlachs, when they moved northwards towards modern day Romania, where they imposed their culture, language and genes on the local Slavs and Goths.

3) What do genetics tell us?

Modern Albanians are obviously a paleoBalkan population, with significant Slavic admixture. Albanians and their possible Moesian ancestors, were likely related to Illyrians, both linguistically and genetically. Our few available Illyrian archaeogenetic samples (e.g. HRV IA) are dominated by Y haplogroups J2b and R1b Z2103, both of which are very common in modern Albanians.

However, when I model the ancestry of modern Albanians, most of their palaeoBalkan ancestry comes from sources similar to classic and Roman era Greeks (Empuries, Collegno and Roman Imperial samples), while they score only a few points with the the Iron Age Illyrian sample (HRV IA) (see attached image). It does not mean of course that Albanians descend from Greeks, but from a similar, more Southern source. If they were descended primarily from Illyrians, they would score way higher with HRV IA, when in fact, most Albanians do not score any ancestry from this source at all (see image). Also, on a PCA, the Illyrians from Croatia plot considerably more Northern than modern Albanians, who instead cluster with Northern Greeks and South Slavs.

Conclusions:

I think there is strong evidence that the modern Albanian population descends from two primary sources: 1) Central North Balkan, likely Moesian Proto Albanians

2) Early Balkan Slavs, that were heavily mixed with Southern Illyrians.

To test this hypothesis, I think it is imperative that we:

1) Extract DNA from pre Roman, Roman, late antiquity, invasion period and late medieval samples from Albania, Serbia, North Macedonia (Moesia Superior) and northern Bulgaria (Moesia Interior), and to compare them with modern day Albanians.

2) Study the archaeological context of these samples, to understand the cultural and demographic processes that took place.

My Albanian friends, tell me what you think!

41630

41631


This thread is specifically about the Albanian DNA project and matters directly related to it such as new results, regional results, statistics, etc.

This thread is not relevant for this post, which is more your personal theory for the ethnogenesis of the Albanians, which is also technically filled with inaccuracies that it would take way too much time to debunk one by one and should be removed.

In terms of "significant slavic admixture", Albanians are the least in the Balkans with slavic admixture, especially when it comes to Y-DNA (Greeks have higher percentages).

Intermarriages occurred later in the medieval period which in the patriarchal clan system was usually female mediated and this is probably the source of most autosomal contribution, not any slavicized illyrians. There is no serious theory of slavicised illyrian communities that were then albanised.

Not just r1b and j2b-l283, but also E-V13, which is the dominant haplogroup among albanians, was probably among illyrians, so again the omission of E-V13 is not justified given that it is the highest frequency group in both north and south Albs.

Albanian has a significant western dalmation strain of latin also, which means proto-Albanians were in between a western dalmatian and eastern romance strain, the best candidate for this is territories around albania and dardania, Moesia would have no such strain. Proto-Dalmatian Latin speakers would have been west of Albanians, proto-Romanians east.

Joachim Matzinger places the earliest confirmed Albanian toponym as Mati, recorded around 300-400AD. So this already disproves any possible entry of proto-Albanians post slavs. Most toponyms are not Slavic mediated but Latin mediated, so again this is a massive innaccuracy.

You have toponyms in the deep south such as ēameria from Θύαμις, Vlora from Aulona (rhotacism in Tosk finished before slavs arrived, so this is obvious pre-slavic proto-Albanian presence in vlora, as first it became Vlona, then Vlora). Arta from Άραχθος river.

These are slavic toponyms in Albania, most are actually densest where Bulgarian rule was strongest, the early pre-bulgarian ones are more scattered out. Note that Laberia region (south west Albania) has lower than south east. Note that the highest incidence of non-Slavic toponyms are

Mirditė 1-4%
Krujė 3-6%
Tiranė 6-7%
Lezhė 7-9%
Mat 8-9%
Pukė 6-10%




https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElXevgpXYAAyP8y?format=jpg&name=4096x4096


Mati region has some latin toponyms, but also has the densest Albanian toponyms. The high impact of Latin on Albanian means that proto-Albanians were a bilingual community, speaking both Latin and Proto-Albanian, that somehow escaped full latinization.

TuaMan
12-15-2020, 09:18 PM
Yes, Mazarek or Mazreku was another family name for the Kastrioti, Skanderbeg himself was also known by this name. I personally believe that this name was their original name with Kastrioti coming later. We can see similar trends with other Albanian noble families, for example the Dukagjini probably started calling themselves that after their progenitor Gjin Tanushi whom bore the title dux (ducam Ginium Tanuschium Albanensem). In one document they also used the name Perlati, however it is also possible that the Dukagjini were related to the older Progoni family that ruled the Principality of Arbanon.

Interesting, I've never heard this before, do you have a source handy?

Also, what's the claim behind the Slavic origin of Mazarek exactly? I know 'reka' is a Slavic word for river and is also borrowed into Albanian (at least in some dialects) but what's the source of the initial "Maz"?

Johane Derite
12-15-2020, 09:39 PM
Interesting, I've never heard this before, do you have a source handy?

Also, what's the claim behind the Slavic origin of Mazarek exactly? I know 'reka' is a Slavic word for river and is also borrowed into Albanian (at least in some dialects) but what's the source of the initial "Maz"?

Mazreka is the surname given for Skanderbeg's father in the Prosopographisches Lexikon der Palaiologenzeit (nr. 11400).

The etymology is given as "behind the river" mas rekes, with a palatilzation of the "s" into z. So an albanian toponym for a place behind a river which then becomes a surname of someone from there.

gjenetiks
12-15-2020, 09:44 PM
Mazreka is the surname given for Skanderbeg's father in the Prosopographisches Lexikon der Palaiologenzeit (nr. 11400).

The etymology is given as "behind the river" mas rekes, with a palatilzation of the "s" into z. So an albanian toponym for a place behind a river which then becomes a surname of someone from there.

Super cool. Do you have an image or link to Mazreka as a surname for Gjon Kastrioti?

gjenetiks
12-15-2020, 10:01 PM
Nevermind I found it:

11400
Καστριώτης ᾿Ιβάνης
(Kastriotes Ibanes)
VN: Ivan Kastriota Mazreku
NÜ: [᾽Αρανίτης]
B: Herr von Matia/Albanien, ca. 1406 - ca. 1443
D: † um 1443.
V: S. d. Paul (Gjergj?) Kastriota. Verheir. mit Voļsava Polloga. V. d. Σκεντέρης
Γεώργης (Gjergj Kastriota Skanderbeg) u. d. Repos u. d. Stanisa u. d. Konstantin
u. d. Maria (verheir. mit Stefan I. von Montenegro, 1427 - 1446) u. d. Vlaica
(verheir. mit Ghin Musachi) u. d. Angelina (verheir. mit Vladam Arianiti) u. d.
Iella (verheir. mit Paul Balsa) u. d. Mamiza (verheir. mit Musachio Thopia).
L: Seine enge Freundschaft mit Venedig, das er wiederholt um Hilfe gegen die
seine Besitzungen im N von Albanien bedrängenden Türken ersuchte (so etwa
1406 u. 1410), brachte ihm 1413 die Auszeichnung eines Ehrenbürgers von
Venedig ein. 1417 schloß er ein Schutz- und Trutzbündnis mit Venedig, das ihn
einerseits zum Vasallen machte, andererseits aber auch das Gebirge von
Mat/Albanien und Vumenestia/Albanien als seinen Besitz garantieren sollte.
1421/22 übergab er im Austausch gegen eine ihm ein Jahr zuvor überlassene
Festung zwei Dörfer dem Chilandar-Kl. auf d. Athos, in dem später sein S.
Repos verstarb. 1423 war er maßgeblich an den Friedensverhandlungen zw.
Venedig u. Serbien beteiligt. Im gleichen Jahr mußte er sich auch dem Ansturm
der Türken beugen:Er unterwarf sich und lieferte seine Söhne Mουράτης (Murad
II., Sultan) nach Adrianopel aus. I. K. blieb ein unermüdlicher Vorkämpfer der
antiosmanischen Bewegung, aber auch ein 1428 abgeschlossener neuerlicher
Beistandspakt mit Venedig konnte ihn nicht vor Niederlagen durch die Türken
unter ᾽Ισαάκης (Ishāq Beg) bewahren (u. a. 1430 u. 1435, als er mit päpstlichem
Segen einen Aufstand gegen die Türkenherrschaft in Albanien anzettelte). In
seinen letzten Regierungsjahren näherte er sich Ragusa (Dubrovnik) an, das
seine S. 1439 zu Bürgern ernannte. Durch eine geschickte Heiratspolitik machte
er sich einen Großteil der albanischen Teilherrscher zu Verbündeten.

Ivan is here instead of Gjon? IIRC his name was written various different ways and Ivan was common. Possibly this was written by Ninac Vukosalic.

Kelmendasi
12-15-2020, 10:02 PM
Interesting, I've never heard this before, do you have a source handy?

Also, what's the claim behind the Slavic origin of Mazarek exactly? I know 'reka' is a Slavic word for river and is also borrowed into Albanian (at least in some dialects) but what's the source of the initial "Maz"?
This is a good read in regards to the origin of the Kastrioti: https://www.academia.edu/35052779/Reflektime_mbi_origjin%C3%ABn_e_Kastriot%C3%ABve.

Kelmendasi
12-15-2020, 10:05 PM
Mazreka is the surname given for Skanderbeg's father in the Prosopographisches Lexikon der Palaiologenzeit (nr. 11400).

The etymology is given as "behind the river" mas rekes, with a palatilzation of the "s" into z. So an albanian toponym for a place behind a river which then becomes a surname of someone from there.
We should also bear in mind that there were a few Medieval Albanian tribes or fise called Mazreku/Mazrreku. One I believe was present in the north of Albania, whilst the other in the south.

Mazrek and its variants were also common anthroponyms, so in this case it could also just be a patronym adopted by the family.

Sorcelow
12-15-2020, 10:09 PM
The surname Mazi and Mazarakis appear in the 1463 defter of the Peloponnese in quite a few Arvanite villages.

gjenetiks
12-15-2020, 10:10 PM
We should also bear in mind that there were a few Medieval Albanian tribes or fise called Mazreku/Mazrreku. One I believe was present in the north of Albania, whilst in the south.

Mazrek and its variants were also common anthroponyms, so in this case it could also just be a patronym adopted by the family.

Yeah there was also Mazaraki in Epirus, as per Nicholas Geoffrey Lempričre Hammond, Nicholas G. Hammond in Migrations and Invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas

"While Mazaraki is in central Epirus by the river Kalamas", Malakasa is the coastal plain of central Albania farther north and the words ‘of his own race' were used to distinguish the Albanian-speaking Malakasaei from the Vlach-speaking Malakasii.

Maybe Mazarek/Mazreku family originated in Epirus, and made Northern/Southern migrations?

Kelmendasi
12-15-2020, 10:13 PM
Yeah there was also Mazaraki in Epirus, as per Nicholas Geoffrey Lempričre Hammond, Nicholas G. Hammond in Migrations and Invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas

"While Mazaraki is in central Epirus by the river Kalamas", Malakasa is the coastal plain of central Albania farther north and the words ‘of his own race' were used to distinguish the Albanian-speaking Malakasaei from the Vlach-speaking Malakasii.

Maybe Mazarek/Mazreku family originated in Epirus, and made Northern/Southern migrations?
The Mazareku of Epirus had initially come from Albania, not vice-versa. I believe though that a Vlach tribe also ended up adopting this name in Greece which is interesting in regards to Albanian-Vlach contact.

gjenetiks
12-15-2020, 10:16 PM
The Mazareku of Epirus had initially come from Albania, not vice-versa. I believe though that a Vlach tribe also ended up adopting this name in Greece which is interesting in regards to Albanian-Vlach contact.

Ah I see. I've seen Serbs nationalists try to make a paternal Serb connection of Skanderbeg from Mazarek, due to the reka part of the name (river in Serbian), and the slavic names of his brothers and sisters. Thoughts on this?

Kelmendasi
12-15-2020, 10:21 PM
Ah I see. I've seen Serbs nationalists try to make a paternal Serb connection of Skanderbeg from Mazarek, due to the reka part of the name (river in Serbian), and the slavic names of his brothers and sisters. Thoughts on this?
They are simply nationalistic claims that do not bear any historical weight when you look at the bibliography. Mazarek/Mazrek comes up in various documents and records as an exclusively Albanian anthroponym. If anything, the fact that they also had this name confirms the ethnic Albanian origin and identity of this family.

Exercitus
12-15-2020, 10:22 PM
http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/nm/kosovo.html

gjenetiks
12-15-2020, 10:25 PM
They are simply nationalistic claims that do not bear any historical weight when you look at the bibliography. Mazarek/Mazrek comes up in various documents and records as an exclusively Albanian anthroponym. If anything, the fact that they also had this name confirms the ethnic Albanian origin and identity of this family.

I agree. What do you make of the slavic names of his brothers and sisters though? Looking at the names of the Kastrioti family, it's only until Gjon married Voisava did they start to use slavic names like Reposh, Stanisha, Jelena, Mamica, Vlajka. Before this you had Konstantin Kastrioti father of Gjon, Konstantin is a typical Byzantine name, and before the Aleksa, again derived from Greek-Byzantine, and before that Pal, a typical Albanian catholic name. Interesting how the name choice shifted to slavic as soon as Gjon married Voisava.

Exercitus
12-15-2020, 10:31 PM
https://qr.ae/pNZAAp

Exercitus
12-15-2020, 10:41 PM
About Vojsava(Vojislava) :https://peizazhe.com/2017/08/02/ku-gabon-mustafa-nano/

Exercitus
12-15-2020, 10:42 PM
Veē kėsaj, kemi dėshminė gjenealogjike tė Andrea Angelos, botuar po te Muzaka (Hopf, f. 308), por e njė date tė mėvonshme, 1550: Dominicus alias Moncinus [genuit] Voisava Ivani uxorem ose: Domeniku alias Monēino lindi Vojsavėn, tė shoqen e Ivanit (nga e cila lindi pastaj Skėnderbeu etc. etc.). Tani ky “Dominik alias Moncinus” nė gjenealogji kish edhe njė tė afėrm, me emrin Gjin (Ginos, po aty). Ndaj dhe ka pak gjasė qė kjo familje tė jetė serbe, pasi ka nė pėrbėrje 1. Njė fisnik me emrin Gjin (Ginos), i cili ėshtė emėr arbėror etnik, dmth. qė e mbanin vetėm arbrit; dhe 2. Njė tjetėr katolik me emrin Dominik. Ka mė shumė gjasė qė ky Dominik tė ishte arbėr i fesė katolike, i sėrės sė Gjonit, me tė cilin kish lidhur krushqi

Exercitus
12-15-2020, 10:54 PM
The slavic names in the XV century for Albanians were quite normal, especially for the nobles.Can you explain how a Albanian/Arvanite orthodox of the XVI century in Morea had such name: Reposh Boziqi ..or a catholic Albanian such as Vladimir Blinishti !?

Johane Derite
12-15-2020, 11:09 PM
We should also bear in mind that there were a few Medieval Albanian tribes or fise called Mazreku/Mazrreku. One I believe was present in the north of Albania, whilst the other in the south.

Mazrek and its variants were also common anthroponyms, so in this case it could also just be a patronym adopted by the family.

The Mazrek they probably belong to are those from Dibra.

Gjon Muzaka's testament from 1515, he says that Pal Kastrioti, Skanderbeg's grandfather, only owned two villages: "Signa & Gardi-ipostesi."

This is today's Sina & Gardhi i Poshtėm in Dibra.

This is where Muhurr is also, where the Berisha of Muhurr claim origin from Nikola Berisha, one of Skanderbeg's generals, so it would make sense they were all closely connected.



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhdxazPXcAAaHB0?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhdyKoHWsAIWEy1?format=png&name=small

Kelmendasi
12-15-2020, 11:26 PM
The Mazrek they probably belong to are those from Dibra.

Gjon Muzaka's testament from 1515, he says that Pal Kastrioti, Skanderbeg's grandfather, only owned two villages: "Signa & Gardi-ipostesi."

This is today's Sina & Gardhi i Poshtėm in Dibra.

This is where Muhurr is also, where the Berisha of Muhurr claim origin from Nikola Berisha, one of Skanderbeg's generals, so it would make sense they were all closely connected.



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhdxazPXcAAaHB0?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhdyKoHWsAIWEy1?format=png&name=small
I agree with the origin of the Kastrioti being around Dibra or Mati, the presence of a Berisha fis in Muhurr that claims descent from Nikollė Berisha (Nicola/Nicolaus Berrisius) is very interesting since we know that this individual did truly exist. They also mention a certain Gjergj Berishė Mazreka as the father of Nikolla. Would be great to get into contact with any families from the region that are connected to this fis.

There is also the fact that the Kastrioti were likely genealogically related to the noble Kuka family or fis, as Pjetėr Kuka is mentioned by John of Aragon as belonging to the same bloodlines as Skanderbeg. This family seemingly held land around Mirdita, Mati and Dibra.

DgidguBidgu
12-15-2020, 11:26 PM
Mazreka is the surname given for Skanderbeg's father in the Prosopographisches Lexikon der Palaiologenzeit (nr. 11400).

The etymology is given as "behind the river" mas rekes, with a palatilzation of the "s" into z. So an albanian toponym for a place behind a river which then becomes a surname of someone from there.

From which Slavic language is that etymology? In which IE language "mas" means behind?
This word it may not be of Indo-European origin at all. Certain coincidences in different languages are sometimes not due to a common origin or etymology, as in this case I suppose.

I am more inclined to believe this, especially when it comes to a name or surname:
https://www.babynamespedia.com/meaning/Masreka

broder
12-15-2020, 11:27 PM
Yeah there was also Mazaraki in Epirus, as per Nicholas Geoffrey Lempričre Hammond, Nicholas G. Hammond in Migrations and Invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas

"While Mazaraki is in central Epirus by the river Kalamas", Malakasa is the coastal plain of central Albania farther north and the words ‘of his own race' were used to distinguish the Albanian-speaking Malakasaei from the Vlach-speaking Malakasii.

Maybe Mazarek/Mazreku family originated in Epirus, and made Northern/Southern migrations?

Very unlikely considering their Y lineage. It may be the other way around. Mazreku from Postribe and the ones from Kosove that have tested are R1b-Z2705>Y32147.

gjenetiks
12-15-2020, 11:31 PM
Very unlikely considering their Y lineage. It may be the other way around. Mazreku from Postribe and the ones from Kosove that have tested are R1b-Z2705>Y32147.

Interesting. Noel Malcolm says the Kastrioti originate from Western Kosovo. Also as Kelmendasi once noted, there are some living descendants of the Kastrioti family who live in Italy, like journalist Loris Castriota Scanderbeg. Hopefully one day he can agree to do a Y-DNA test.

trdbr1234
12-15-2020, 11:49 PM
Appropriation of Albanian figures by Kosovan nationalists is not appropriate, in my opinion.

All this talk of Albanian being born somewhere North, or West, or East, is fantasy and a weird coping method, in my opinion. Every fact points to Albanian having developed in Albania.

Johane Derite
12-16-2020, 12:59 AM
From which Slavic language is that etymology? In which IE language "mas" means behind?
This word it may not be of Indo-European origin at all. Certain coincidences in different languages are sometimes not due to a common origin or etymology, as in this case I suppose.

I am more inclined to believe this, especially when it comes to a name or surname:
https://www.babynamespedia.com/meaning/Masreka

You are wrong. Its albanian, why are you even commenting if you dont understand Albanian. Go troll some other thread

Johane Derite
12-16-2020, 01:15 AM
Appropriation of Albanian figures by Kosovan nationalists is not appropriate, in my opinion.

All this talk of Albanian being born somewhere North, or West, or East, is fantasy and a weird coping method, in my opinion. Every fact points to Albanian having developed in Albania.

What has this got to do with anything. Stop derailing the thread and trying to start political fights.

gjenetiks
12-16-2020, 01:28 AM
Is it true that Gjon Muzaka said this? or this another bullshit:

"Scanderbeg huomo valente e per natura Serviano" / Skanderbeg was of "Serbian nature"

gjenetiks
12-16-2020, 02:50 AM
I think it's quite possible Skanderbeg family could first originate in Has of Prizren like Frang Bardhi said, there is even a village there named Mazrek.

Johane Derite
12-16-2020, 08:51 AM
I agree with the origin of the Kastrioti being around Dibra or Mati, the presence of a Berisha fis in Muhurr that claims descent from Nikollė Berisha (Nicola/Nicolaus Berrisius) is very interesting since we know that this individual did truly exist. They also mention a certain Gjergj Berishė Mazreka as the father of Nikolla. Would be great to get into contact with any families from the region that are connected to this fis.

There is also the fact that the Kastrioti were likely genealogically related to the noble Kuka family or fis, as Pjetėr Kuka is mentioned by John of Aragon as belonging to the same bloodlines as Skanderbeg. This family seemingly held land around Mirdita, Mati and Dibra.

Would be very valuable if someone from Dibra who knows Berisha of Muhurr and Mazreks also could encourage one of them to test

XXD
12-16-2020, 04:40 PM
This thread is specifically about the Albanian DNA project and matters directly related to it such as new results, regional results, statistics, etc.

This thread is not relevant for this post, which is more your personal theory for the ethnogenesis of the Albanians, which is also technically filled with inaccuracies that it would take way too much time to debunk one by one and should be removed.

In terms of "significant slavic admixture", Albanians are the least in the Balkans with slavic admixture, especially when it comes to Y-DNA (Greeks have higher percentages).

Intermarriages occurred later in the medieval period which in the patriarchal clan system was usually female mediated and this is probably the source of most autosomal contribution, not any slavicized illyrians. There is no serious theory of slavicised illyrian communities that were then albanised.

Not just r1b and j2b-l283, but also E-V13, which is the dominant haplogroup among albanians, was probably among illyrians, so again the omission of E-V13 is not justified given that it is the highest frequency group in both north and south Albs.

Albanian has a significant western dalmation strain of latin also, which means proto-Albanians were in between a western dalmatian and eastern romance strain, the best candidate for this is territories around albania and dardania, Moesia would have no such strain. Proto-Dalmatian Latin speakers would have been west of Albanians, proto-Romanians east.

Joachim Matzinger places the earliest confirmed Albanian toponym as Mati, recorded around 300-400AD. So this already disproves any possible entry of proto-Albanians post slavs. Most toponyms are not Slavic mediated but Latin mediated, so again this is a massive innaccuracy.

You have toponyms in the deep south such as ēameria from Θύαμις, Vlora from Aulona (rhotacism in Tosk finished before slavs arrived, so this is obvious pre-slavic proto-Albanian presence in vlora, as first it became Vlona, then Vlora). Arta from Άραχθος river.

These are slavic toponyms in Albania, most are actually densest where Bulgarian rule was strongest, the early pre-bulgarian ones are more scattered out. Note that Laberia region (south west Albania) has lower than south east. Note that the highest incidence of non-Slavic toponyms are

Mirditė 1-4%
Krujė 3-6%
Tiranė 6-7%
Lezhė 7-9%
Mat 8-9%
Pukė 6-10%




https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElXevgpXYAAyP8y?format=jpg&name=4096x4096


Mati region has some latin toponyms, but also has the densest Albanian toponyms. The high impact of Latin on Albanian means that proto-Albanians were a bilingual community, speaking both Latin and Proto-Albanian, that somehow escaped full latinization.

Albanians have the least Slavic admixture in the Balkans? Have you heard of the Peloponnesians, the Cretans and the Dodecanesians? Y chromosomes are only 1% of your genome. We are talking about the whole genome here. And when we examine autosomes, what is a fact, is that most Albanians cluster only with the most heavily Slav admixed regions of Greece, such as Macedonia and Thessaly. Since Slavic Y lineages are low in Albanians, expect that most of this Slavic ancestry entered the Albanian gene pool from the maternal side.

The problem you have to deal with, is if Slavic toponyms are so scarce in Albania, why Albanians have such elevated Slavic ancestry. This is a genuine problem, which is very interesting to explore. I have no opinion on how this process came to be. Intermarriage in the way you suggest makes sense.

As for linguistics, I am not a linguist, and I suspect that you are not either. I reproduced the views of some linguists, who are unlikely to be biased. This has nothing to do with my own personal views. If you disagree with the main assumptions I reproduced, i.e. that Albanian likely developed outside Albania, close to protoVlachs, that Albanians at least partially descend from DacoMoesians, and that most Illyrian names where slavicised first, then Albanised, you can easily provide counter arguments.


If you think the opinions I reproduced here are wrong, you can refute them. I thought forums were about debates, not monologues, no?

Also, I am not sure who dictates what this thread is about. I have seen a strong Ottoman/Medieval focus, as well as the genetic relationships within and outside Albania. Is there some rule that we cannot extend the debate to late antiquity?

XXD
12-16-2020, 05:12 PM
Johane Derite, in your own post on the origins of the Albanian language, you quoted an Albanian author:

Therefore, from this point of view Albanian should have evolved
from one of the ancient I.E. languages spoken in the eastern or western part
of the Balkans. In such circumstances, one could not establish whether the
Albanians are the descendants of the Illyrians, as some scholars have thought
about, or of the Thracians or of Daco-Mysians, as some other ones have
assumed.
Pg 190-192
The Origin of the Albanians: Linguistically Investigated
Shaban Demiraj
2006

So it is not my personal theory, and the debate is very real. Again, I am in no position to have an opinion on this, I just reproduced information from linguists, which happen to contradict Albanian nationalist narratives, as well as the opinions of some linguists. Many linguists argue for an Illyrian origin, many others for a DacoMoesian one. The matter is obviously in no way settled towards either hypothesis.

I posted this so I could get some interesting answers, and if we exclude Kelmendasi, I mostly got angry posts about how wrong "I" am.

Aspar
12-16-2020, 05:35 PM
Albanians have the least Slavic admixture in the Balkans? Have you heard of the Peloponnesians, the Cretans and the Dodecanesians? Y chromosomes are only 1% of your genome. We are talking about the whole genome here. And when we examine autosomes, what is a fact, is that most Albanians cluster only with the most heavily Slav admixed regions of Greece, such as Macedonia and Thessaly. Since Slavic Y lineages are low in Albanians, expect that most of this Slavic ancestry entered the Albanian gene pool from the maternal side.

The problem you have to deal with, is if Slavic toponyms are so scarce in Albania, why Albanians have such elevated Slavic ancestry. This is a genuine problem, which is very interesting to explore. I have no opinion on how this process came to be. Intermarriage in the way you suggest makes sense.

As for linguistics, I am not a linguist, and I suspect that you are not either. I reproduced the views of some linguists, who are unlikely to be biased. This has nothing to do with my own personal views. If you disagree with the main assumptions I reproduced, i.e. that Albanian likely developed outside Albania, close to protoVlachs, that Albanians at least partially descend from DacoMoesians, and that most Illyrian names where slavicised first, then Albanised, you can easily provide counter arguments.


If you think the opinions I reproduced here are wrong, you can refute them. I thought forums were about debates, not monologues, no?

Also, I am not sure who dictates what this thread is about. I have seen a strong Ottoman/Medieval focus, as well as the genetic relationships within and outside Albania. Is there some rule that we cannot extend the debate to late antiquity?

Albanians as a whole indeed are the least Slavic admixed people in the Balkans, at least that's what some of the amateurish tools available show since we don't have any professional studies that would work on the matter. That they plot with the most Slavic admixed regions in Greece doesn't mean that the are on the same level with those Greek regions when it comes to Slavic admixture. That the ancient ancestors of the Albanians and the Greeks were different people we can observe by the yDNA chromosomes of the Albanians and the Greeks which are quite different and usually the ones that show similarities could be the case of Albanian ancestry among the Greeks. In that regard the ancient ancestors of the Albanians could have been more steppe admixed even before the Slavic migrations hence the similarities in those PCA plots with Macedonian Greeks.
As far as I'm aware the Cretans and the people of Dodecanesse are not considered Balkan people nor their islands as of the Balkan region. Those southernmost Peloponnesians are just a minority among the other Peloponnesians who are considerably more Slavic. And believe it or not but some Labs I've encountered on these forums do have the same if not less amount of Slavic ancestry than those southernmost Peloponnesians. Even some northern Albanians to be frank are considerably 'pure' in the sense of foreign admixture. That was the case with one ex member here and his father which if I remember right were comparable with those southernmost Peloponnesians.
As for the Albanian language, it does have arguments that show Illyrian but also Daco-Moesian connection. This doesn't have to contradict anything if we for the minute start to think out of the box and take for possible that the modern Albanians and their language could have originated at a place where the Illyrian and the Daco-Moesian influences and elements mixed with each other and considering that he Latin superstrate in Albanian has shown that the language was influenced by both Eastern and Western Romance so the most logical conclusion that such place that has all those characteristics is ancient Dardania which had both it's Illyrian and Daco-Moesian inputs but also was Latin dominated during the Roman Empire.

Kelmendasi
12-16-2020, 06:00 PM
In regards to the question of toponyms in Albania, this is what the Croatian linguist Radoslav Katičić had to say on the matter in his Ancient Languages of the Balkans (https://archive.org/details/AncientLanguagesOfTheBalkans/page/n91/mode/2up):

"On the other hand Niš from Ναϊσσός, Štip from from Άστιβος, Šar from Scardus, and Ohrid from Lychnidus presuppose the sound development characteristic for Albanian... The question to this is that in judging whether a sound change is originally Albanian or not, chronological differences must be taken into consideration. The change of initial sk- to h- is very old in Albanian, perhaps pre-Balkanic, and it is no wonder if some ancient Balkanic toponyms do not conform to it. Some toponyms came to Albanian through Romance or Slavic mediation or even through both. But on the main Albanian names such as Lesh, Drisht, Kunavja, Drin, Buenė, Mat; and Ishm can be derived from their ancient forms Lissus, Drivastum, Candavia, Drinus, Barbanna, Mathis, and Isamnus only by Albanian sound changes, and by no others. One only has to suppose an initial accentuation in Illyrian: Dyrrachium, Isamnus, Drivastum (cf. Messapian Brundisium > Brindisi)."

Exercitus
12-16-2020, 06:06 PM
https://i.imgur.com/4OsBcTa.jpg

xripkan
12-16-2020, 06:14 PM
Albanians as a whole indeed are the least Slavic admixed people in the Balkans, at least that's what some of the amateurish tools available show since we don't have any professional studies that would work on the matter. That they plot with the most Slavic admixed regions in Greece doesn't mean that the are on the same level with those Greek regions when it comes to Slavic admixture. That the ancient ancestors of the Albanians and the Greeks were different people we can observe by the yDNA chromosomes of the Albanians and the Greeks which are quite different and usually the ones that show similarities could be the case of Albanian ancestry among the Greeks. In that regard the ancient ancestors of the Albanians could have been more steppe admixed even before the Slavic migrations hence the similarities in those PCA plots with Macedonian Greeks.
As far as I'm aware the Cretans and the people of Dodecanesse are not considered Balkan people nor their islands as of the Balkan region. Those southernmost Peloponnesians are just a minority among the other Peloponnesians who are considerably more Slavic. And believe it or not but some Labs I've encountered on these forums do have the same if not less amount of Slavic ancestry than those southernmost Peloponnesians. Even some northern Albanians to be frank are considerably 'pure' in the sense of foreign admixture. That was the case with one ex member here and his father which if I remember right were comparable with those southernmost Peloponnesians.
As for the Albanian language, it does have arguments that show Illyrian but also Daco-Moesian connection. This doesn't have to contradict anything if we for the minute start to think out of the box and take for possible that the modern Albanians and their language could have originated at a place where the Illyrian and the Daco-Moesian influences and elements mixed with each other and considering that he Latin superstrate in Albanian has shown that the language was influenced by both Eastern and Western Romance so the most logical conclusion that such place that has all those characteristics is ancient Dardania which had both it's Illyrian and Daco-Moesian inputs but also was Latin dominated during the Roman Empire.

I don't think there is an Albanian comparable with the most southern shifted Peloponnesians. Probably there are Albanians with low Slavic admixture who plot very close to Tuscany (some Northern Albanians plot close to North Italy) but they don't have less Slavic ancestry than a south-shifted (from Deep Mani or Southern Kynouria) Peloponnesian who plots very close to Apulia and SE Sicily so he has almost zero Slavic ancestry.
In my opinion the Peloponnesian average has about the same Slavic admixture with Albanian Tosks however Tosks are more West-Med shifted due to higher Balkan ancestry (higher Barcin and lower CHG/Iran N).

Exercitus
12-16-2020, 06:18 PM
...the largest part of this alleged substratum (!) common to both Albanian and Rumanian consist simply of loan-words in Rumanian from proto-Albanian !!!

xxd do you really understand what does this conclusion means concerning the "partial daco-moesan ancestry" of modern Albanians ?!
Can you explain us this deduction with your own words !?

Thanks

Aspar
12-16-2020, 06:53 PM
Ohrid is indeed an interesting name because shows developments under the phonetic laws of a particular Albanian group, that of the Tosks but also the Aromanians.

We know that the ancient name was Lyhnida or Lihnida. In the 9th century in the Greek sources start to dominate the name Ahrida. This name will be transformed to Ohrid under the phonetic laws of the Common Slavic with the sound shift a>o.
But how did it came from Lyhnida to Ahrida?
It involved the well known rhotacization of n to r typical for the Tosk.
So (Ly)hNida > hRida. While the 'A' in front is typical for the Aromanians who tend to put 'A' in front of the words. Therefore Aromanians is nothing but Romanians with 'A' in front, Rrćmćnji > Armćnji!

I suspect that the Comani culture has to do something with both people. Probably with the efforts of Justinian to strengthen that part of the Empire that was devastated earlier on.

Johane Derite
12-16-2020, 07:35 PM
Albanians have the least Slavic admixture in the Balkans? Have you heard of the Peloponnesians, the Cretans and the Dodecanesians? Y chromosomes are only 1% of your genome. We are talking about the whole genome here. And when we examine autosomes, what is a fact, is that most Albanians cluster only with the most heavily Slav admixed regions of Greece, such as Macedonia and Thessaly. Since Slavic Y lineages are low in Albanians, expect that most of this Slavic ancestry entered the Albanian gene pool from the maternal side.

The problem you have to deal with, is if Slavic toponyms are so scarce in Albania, why Albanians have such elevated Slavic ancestry. This is a genuine problem, which is very interesting to explore. I have no opinion on how this process came to be. Intermarriage in the way you suggest makes sense.

As for linguistics, I am not a linguist, and I suspect that you are not either. I reproduced the views of some linguists, who are unlikely to be biased. This has nothing to do with my own personal views. If you disagree with the main assumptions I reproduced, i.e. that Albanian likely developed outside Albania, close to protoVlachs, that Albanians at least partially descend from DacoMoesians, and that most Illyrian names where slavicised first, then Albanised, you can easily provide counter arguments.


If you think the opinions I reproduced here are wrong, you can refute them. I thought forums were about debates, not monologues, no?

Also, I am not sure who dictates what this thread is about. I have seen a strong Ottoman/Medieval focus, as well as the genetic relationships within and outside Albania. Is there some rule that we cannot extend the debate to late antiquity?

Dodecanese and Crete are obviously not even Balkans proper, as for peloponnesians, it is the region of Greece with the highest Albanian admixture from medieval Arvanite presence.

I never stated Slavic toponyms are scarce, I pasted a map showing how frequent they are, and that they are most frequent in Bulgarian administration zones, contrary to your inaccurate claim otherwise.

I already refuted it, Joachim Matzinger, Austrian linguist, shows that the toponym Mati is proto Albanian, and appears in 300-400 AD in Vibius Sequester:

"Mathis Dyrrachi non longe a Lisso"

Mati of Durrės, not far from Lezhė

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej-VUHbWkAEa-5q?format=jpg&name=large


Meaning not only were proto-Albanians already in Mat in 300-400 AD, but they must have been there long enough for the entire Mati river to be associated with them. Mati also has some of the least Latin toponyms in all of Albania compared to other regions.

Like I said, there is so much there that is so innacurate, but mainly the notion that Albania had fully been settled by early slavs and then a wave of moesians came and albanised them?

I also refuted this with Vlora from Aulona, which is directly into Albanian from Greek, not Slavic, and must have happened before Slavs since it has a rhotacised n -> r (Vlona -> Vlora). Rhotacism finished in Tosk before slavs arrived, since it is missing in slavic loanwords in Albanian, but is present in Latin loanwords, meaning it happened before slavs, but after romans sometime in the Tosk dialect.

Johane Derite
12-16-2020, 07:46 PM
Precisely because slavs administrations were so aggressive with naming toponyms in Albania (but also in Greece) it is made more difficult to know the pre-slavic toponyms of many regions in Albania and whether they were proto-Albanian.

But we have slavic evidence that they already encountered Albanians when they came. Namely, we have medieval Slavic references to Albania (Arbanon/Arbėn) that are in the form "Rab-" instead of "Arb".

Slavic liquid metathesis that brought this change (Arb -> Rab) already finished by 800's AD, meaning they must have had contact with Proto-Albanians since at least before the 800's.

E.g., we have documented "Rabna Pilota" for Pulti in North Albania. This is an archaism that could only have happened if Slavs already encountered Arbenians before the metathesis happened.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhyNdXUWoAAzQOI?format=jpg&name=medium

Johane Derite
12-16-2020, 07:49 PM
German historian & classical philologist Georg Stadtmüller on analysing the Christian vocabulary of Albanian concluded that the Dalmatian Romance affinities mean that the Proto-Albanians were somewhere in Kosovo/Northern Albania at the time of their conversion into Christianity.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EixyH9jWoAY3nL9?format=png&name=medium

Johnny ola
12-16-2020, 07:56 PM
Albanians as a whole indeed are the least Slavic admixed people in the Balkans, at least that's what some of the amateurish tools available show since we don't have any professional studies that would work on the matter. That they plot with the most Slavic admixed regions in Greece doesn't mean that the are on the same level with those Greek regions when it comes to Slavic admixture. That the ancient ancestors of the Albanians and the Greeks were different people we can observe by the yDNA chromosomes of the Albanians and the Greeks which are quite different and usually the ones that show similarities could be the case of Albanian ancestry among the Greeks. In that regard the ancient ancestors of the Albanians could have been more steppe admixed even before the Slavic migrations hence the similarities in those PCA plots with Macedonian Greeks.
As far as I'm aware the Cretans and the people of Dodecanesse are not considered Balkan people nor their islands as of the Balkan region. Those southernmost Peloponnesians are just a minority among the other Peloponnesians who are considerably more Slavic. And believe it or not but some Labs I've encountered on these forums do have the same if not less amount of Slavic ancestry than those southernmost Peloponnesians. Even some northern Albanians to be frank are considerably 'pure' in the sense of foreign admixture. That was the case with one ex member here and his father which if I remember right were comparable with those southernmost Peloponnesians.
As for the Albanian language, it does have arguments that show Illyrian but also Daco-Moesian connection. This doesn't have to contradict anything if we for the minute start to think out of the box and take for possible that the modern Albanians and their language could have originated at a place where the Illyrian and the Daco-Moesian influences and elements mixed with each other and considering that he Latin superstrate in Albanian has shown that the language was influenced by both Eastern and Western Romance so the most logical conclusion that such place that has all those characteristics is ancient Dardania which had both it's Illyrian and Daco-Moesian inputs but also was Latin dominated during the Roman Empire.

Personally i don't see huge diffrences between South Albanians(Tosks) and mainland Greeks with only exception that the Greeks are more west asian(more likely to score Anatolian and Levant genes).But when it comes to north Albanians(Gheghs) i think gedmatch kits we have seen they plot northern and some of them are coming closer even to Montenegrins/Bosnians.Now, about mainland Greeks i think with exception some isolated groups from Laconia,Mani,Tsakonia who are in some way less affected from northern people the rest of mainland Greeks are actually quite close to South Albanians.

All the samples coming closer to Mainland Greeks first and for all.But as i mention above Albanians are less west asian admixed and less affected from Anatolian and Levantine people.


Distance to: Albanian:ALB230
0.02211548 Albanian
0.02352232 Greek_Macedonia
0.02739794 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02938118 Greek_Thessaly
0.03098965 Rumelia_East
0.03151663 Gagauz
0.03172544 Swiss_Italian
0.03226097 Bulgarian
0.03258946 Italian_Piedmont
0.03284122 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03538316 Italian_Tuscany
0.03538715 Italian_Veneto
0.03626261 Italian_Northeast
0.03664158 Italian_Liguria
0.03665256 Macedonian
0.03726389 Italian_Bergamo
0.03753031 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03786504 Italian_Marche
0.03798007 Romanian
0.03881119 Italian_Lombardy
0.04208867 French_Corsica
0.04251551 Italian_Umbria
0.04360926 Italian_Molise
0.04367366 Greek_Laconia
0.04489450 Italian_Lazio

Distance to: Albanian:ALB220
0.02434735 Albanian
0.02778937 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02848248 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02906426 Rumelia_East
0.03042741 Greek_Thessaly
0.03163228 Greek_Macedonia
0.03312684 Greek_Izmir
0.03530391 Greek_Laconia
0.03554216 Italian_Tuscany
0.03667111 Italian_Umbria
0.03686171 Italian_Marche
0.03702963 Italian_Molise
0.03851469 Swiss_Italian
0.03862413 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03872617 Italian_Lazio
0.03998227 Italian_Piedmont
0.04045454 Italian_Basilicata
0.04112457 Italian_Apulia
0.04171143 Gagauz
0.04527540 Italian_Liguria
0.04643574 Italian_Campania
0.04653560 Bulgarian
0.04656759 Italian_Veneto
0.04680631 French_Corsica
0.04780758 Italian_Bergamo

Distance to: Albanian:ALB213
0.02068022 Albanian
0.02236451 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02392547 Greek_Macedonia
0.02572856 Rumelia_East
0.02692589 Greek_Thessaly
0.02898104 Swiss_Italian
0.02980531 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03048899 Gagauz
0.03051453 Bulgarian
0.03235347 Italian_Piedmont
0.03333636 Italian_Tuscany
0.03597731 Italian_Marche
0.03651471 Romanian
0.03651745 Macedonian
0.03695000 Italian_Northeast
0.03695760 Italian_Veneto
0.03782830 Italian_Umbria
0.03789375 Italian_Liguria
0.03987133 Italian_Bergamo
0.04015533 Greek_Laconia
0.04053311 Greek_Izmir
0.04126907 Italian_Molise
0.04128205 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04141440 Italian_Lombardy
0.04254726 Italian_Abruzzo

Distance to: Albanian:ALB212
0.02333227 Albanian
0.02684875 Greek_Macedonia
0.02878965 Greek_Thessaly
0.02933173 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02991429 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03477487 Rumelia_East
0.03552708 Italian_Marche
0.03763599 Italian_Tuscany
0.03777775 Italian_Molise
0.03818494 Greek_Laconia
0.03883223 Italian_Piedmont
0.03886652 Greek_Izmir
0.03994885 Italian_Umbria
0.04067747 Italian_Lazio
0.04083502 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04131926 Italian_Apulia
0.04224338 Swiss_Italian
0.04299594 French_Corsica
0.04348441 Italian_Lombardy
0.04376841 Italian_Liguria
0.04378153 Italian_Basilicata
0.04424352 Italian_Bergamo
0.04465174 Gagauz
0.04520788 Italian_Veneto
0.04662412 Bulgarian

Distance to: Albanian:ALB202
0.01942795 Greek_Macedonia
0.02039442 Rumelia_East
0.02045113 Albanian
0.02046031 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02366181 Gagauz
0.02559212 Greek_Thessaly
0.02823653 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03017014 Bulgarian
0.03369790 Macedonian
0.03518063 Swiss_Italian
0.03706598 Italian_Piedmont
0.03720132 Romanian
0.03807477 Greek_Izmir
0.03853686 Italian_Tuscany
0.03905863 Italian_Marche
0.04070130 Italian_Umbria
0.04108274 Italian_Northeast
0.04123494 Greek_Laconia
0.04128432 Italian_Veneto
0.04189119 Italian_Molise
0.04299719 Italian_Liguria
0.04346024 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04439256 Italian_Lazio
0.04460397 Italian_Bergamo
0.04534339 Montenegrin

Distance to: Albanian:ALB191
0.02606895 Albanian
0.02625595 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02706424 Rumelia_East
0.02885099 Bulgarian
0.02888108 Greek_Macedonia
0.03079957 Gagauz
0.03259909 Macedonian
0.03542096 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03666636 Greek_Thessaly
0.03670483 Romanian
0.04390631 Serbian
0.04495032 Montenegrin
0.04566353 Greek_Izmir
0.04602814 Swiss_Italian
0.04633603 Italian_Northeast
0.04692722 Italian_Piedmont
0.04745278 Greek_Laconia
0.04892550 Italian_Tuscany
0.04905864 Italian_Veneto
0.04917838 Turkish_Deliorman
0.05010647 Italian_Marche
0.05028918 Moldovan
0.05069043 Italian_Molise
0.05144614 Italian_Umbria
0.05260340 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

Distance to: Albanian:AL98
0.02849076 Albanian
0.02920578 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02969380 Rumelia_East
0.03235241 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03451655 Greek_Thessaly
0.03473723 Greek_Izmir
0.03682284 Greek_Macedonia
0.03728647 Greek_Laconia
0.03812190 Italian_Umbria
0.04019624 Italian_Tuscany
0.04139075 Italian_Molise
0.04232180 Swiss_Italian
0.04293010 Italian_Marche
0.04304718 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04445297 Italian_Piedmont
0.04474594 Italian_Basilicata
0.04542408 Gagauz
0.04577170 Bulgarian
0.04601111 Italian_Apulia
0.04631366 Italian_Lazio
0.04963666 French_Corsica
0.05007110 Italian_Campania
0.05035295 Macedonian
0.05056729 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.05085550 Italian_Veneto

Distance to: Albanian:AL9
0.02045532 Albanian
0.02377072 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02434350 Greek_Thessaly
0.02831896 Italian_Tuscany
0.02833369 Rumelia_East
0.02852718 Greek_Macedonia
0.02863452 Italian_Piedmont
0.02913648 Swiss_Italian
0.02968229 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03241413 Italian_Marche
0.03324238 Italian_Umbria
0.03487437 Italian_Veneto
0.03487660 Italian_Liguria
0.03604007 Gagauz
0.03642219 Italian_Molise
0.03665302 Italian_Northeast
0.03704306 Italian_Bergamo
0.03730592 Bulgarian
0.03798258 Greek_Laconia
0.03810846 Greek_Izmir
0.03813802 Italian_Lazio
0.03857198 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03876381 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03934968 French_Corsica
0.03936128 Italian_Lombardy

Distance to: Albanian:AL82
0.02016524 Greek_Macedonia
0.02600034 Greek_Thessaly
0.02617415 Gagauz
0.02638101 Albanian
0.02837099 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03099355 Rumelia_East
0.03171649 Bulgarian
0.03356925 Italian_Liguria
0.03493564 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03545146 Italian_Piedmont
0.03621599 Macedonian
0.03701067 Swiss_Italian
0.03776762 Italian_Marche
0.03791067 Romanian
0.03870323 Italian_Tuscany
0.03893418 Italian_Lombardy
0.03964736 Italian_Northeast
0.04010991 Italian_Veneto
0.04152178 Italian_Bergamo
0.04194171 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04387505 Italian_Umbria
0.04435328 Italian_Molise
0.04559018 Serbian
0.04594903 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04653307 Greek_Izmir

Distance to: Albanian:AL29
0.01787930 Albanian
0.01883324 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.01919739 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02040249 Greek_Thessaly
0.02159814 Greek_Macedonia
0.02345576 Rumelia_East
0.02660941 Greek_Laconia
0.02846787 Greek_Izmir
0.02940279 Italian_Umbria
0.02972930 Italian_Marche
0.03007398 Italian_Tuscany
0.03166165 Italian_Molise
0.03265725 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03351408 Italian_Piedmont
0.03394054 Italian_Lazio
0.03447790 Swiss_Italian
0.03447901 Italian_Apulia
0.03593338 Italian_Basilicata
0.03801829 French_Corsica
0.03876312 Gagauz
0.03967673 Sicilian_West
0.04107769 Italian_Campania
0.04166897 Italian_Liguria
0.04167975 Italian_Veneto
0.04191829 Sicilian_East

Distance to: Albanian:AL17
0.02523773 Greek_Macedonia
0.02578542 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02720620 Greek_Thessaly
0.02754401 Albanian
0.03014392 Italian_Marche
0.03158206 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03399191 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03431027 Italian_Molise
0.03480199 Italian_Tuscany
0.03495027 Italian_Lazio
0.03497948 Italian_Apulia
0.03498096 Greek_Izmir
0.03571320 Greek_Laconia
0.03716291 Rumelia_East
0.03744405 Italian_Umbria
0.03748943 Italian_Piedmont
0.03864813 Italian_Basilicata
0.03960044 Sicilian_East
0.04014576 Sicilian_West
0.04242372 Italian_Campania
0.04242816 Swiss_Italian
0.04254091 French_Corsica
0.04286204 Italian_Liguria
0.04306633 Gagauz
0.04336320 Italian_Lombardy

Distance to: Albanian:AL12
0.03011788 Albanian
0.03334818 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03419386 Swiss_Italian
0.03576901 Italian_Tuscany
0.03588070 Rumelia_East
0.03673929 Italian_Piedmont
0.03688422 Greek_Thessaly
0.03788567 Italian_Veneto
0.03869441 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03919044 Italian_Umbria
0.04089840 Greek_Macedonia
0.04136475 Italian_Bergamo
0.04136583 French_Corsica
0.04207066 Italian_Northeast
0.04255588 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04312499 Italian_Marche
0.04367393 Greek_Laconia
0.04446887 Greek_Izmir
0.04554507 Italian_Molise
0.04591404 Italian_Lazio
0.04620585 Bulgarian
0.04726132 Italian_Lombardy
0.04831240 Macedonian
0.04835003 Gagauz
0.04897454 Italian_Abruzzo

Johane Derite
12-16-2020, 08:06 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElXevgpXYAAyP8y?format=jpg&name=4096x4096




Pay attention to the blue zone in this map, with the least slavic toponyms. Mati (MT) is also the zone with the least roman toponyms in all of Albania (not none, but least). It is also the zone with highest Albanian toponyms. This region is also where the Albanoi tribe and Albanopolis are mentioned by Ptolemy in 150AD.

Now, see this map where Illyrian toponyms survived the most:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElXKeDEXEAUbwly?format=jpg&name=medium

It coincides with the same blue zone.

Johane Derite
12-16-2020, 08:17 PM
So the best working model is that proto-Albanians were in Albania, Montenegro, Dardania regions and experienced contraction into mountains due to slav invasions and roman collapse until they slowly recooperated and began demographic reexpansion from highlands.

Principality of Arbanon is precisely in this blue zone, where a larger refugum had been secured. The south west of Albania also like Vlora, etc.

Arta is directly from Greek. Arachtos
Ēameri is directly from Greek. Thyamis
Not via slavic mediation, and this is deep in Epirus.

Hawk
12-16-2020, 08:21 PM
Epirus by Nicholas Geoffrey Lempričre Hammond, 1967, page 466, "Περεσάδύες τε συνεστήσαντο τήν δυναστείαν καί Έγχελέους καί Σεσαρηθίους καλούσι. The Peresadyes are evidently Illyrians; the name is not known elsewhere but the royal name Berisades in Thrace is very close to it. These Peresadyes joined the dynasty... συνεστήσαντο τήν δυναστείαν; cf. LSJ συνίστημι, B. III, which..."


A History of Macedonia: 550-336 B.C by Nicholas Geoffrey Lempričre Hammond,Guy Thompson Griffith, 1978, ISBN 0198148143, page 93, "The Peresadyes, then, were the rulers of Trebenishte, and Hecataeus wrote of them when they were at the height of their power. It is likely, as we have, seen, that they came from the north; they may have been Dardanii, forerunners of the fourth-century dynasty of Bardylis, and they had contact with the Thracians,..."


It looks like Peresadyes, Berisades and Berisha can be made a connection. It doesn't look far-fetched to think Berisha-Sopi descend from Dardanians. Worth to note is that E-V13 FGC33621 has a West to East dispersal during Early Iron Age.

During Middle Ages, Berishas were the most powerful Albanian tribe/family.

https://i.imgur.com/3btvQEr.jpg

broder
12-16-2020, 08:36 PM
So the best working model is that proto-Albanians were in Albania, Montenegro, Dardania regions and experienced contraction into mountains due to slav invasions and roman collapse until they slowly recooperated and began demographic reexpansion from highlands.

Principality of Arbanon is precisely in this blue zone, where a larger refugum had been secured. The south west of Albania also like Vlora, etc.

Arta is directly from Greek. Arachtos
Ēameri is directly from Greek. Thyamis
Not via slavic mediation, and this is deep in Epirus.

Agree 100%

Hawk
12-16-2020, 08:42 PM
I love the Carpi/Costoboci hypothesis, it's a hypothesis which i expect to come only by the likes of Borat Sagdiyev in a pranksters interview but unexpectedly repeated by some members.

I mean it remains as a wishful thinking, with no real proofs.

gjenetiks
12-16-2020, 10:00 PM
So the best working model is that proto-Albanians were in Albania, Montenegro, Dardania regions and experienced contraction into mountains due to slav invasions and roman collapse until they slowly recooperated and began demographic reexpansion from highlands.

Principality of Arbanon is precisely in this blue zone, where a larger refugum had been secured. The south west of Albania also like Vlora, etc.

Arta is directly from Greek. Arachtos
Ēameri is directly from Greek. Thyamis
Not via slavic mediation, and this is deep in Epirus.

I can also attest to Albanian toponyms in Montenegro where I'm from. I think the majority are Albanian in Shestan, Kraje, Tuzi-Malesia.

Hawk
12-17-2020, 08:24 AM
If the Urnfield expansion of E-V13 is true that seriously changes of how we should view proto-Albanoids and Proto-Illyrians. Because chances are huge then that E-V13 Z5018 were crucial in forming proto-Albanoids/proto-Illyrians and not J2b2-L283/R1b-Z2103 who might be an earlier EBA Indo-Europeans whose language was lost.

Aspar
12-17-2020, 02:53 PM
I don't think there is an Albanian comparable with the most southern shifted Peloponnesians. Probably there are Albanians with low Slavic admixture who plot very close to Tuscany (some Northern Albanians plot close to North Italy) but they don't have less Slavic ancestry than a south-shifted (from Deep Mani or Southern Kynouria) Peloponnesian who plots very close to Apulia and SE Sicily so he has almost zero Slavic ancestry.
In my opinion the Peloponnesian average has about the same Slavic admixture with Albanian Tosks however Tosks are more West-Med shifted due to higher Balkan ancestry (higher Barcin and lower CHG/Iran N).

Could be. However as a whole the Albanians seem to have little foreign, non-Balkan input. Even if we take those southernmost Peloponnesians for example, they still tend to have large chunk of Levantine DNA.

Aspar
12-17-2020, 03:36 PM
Anyway, I find this thread interesting and would like a good discussion to be resolved although I'm aware of the implications such a thread could bring. As Albanian is the only language that can bring close to the unknown ancient languages of the Balkans it's a shame there is still a lot of mystery around it.
I think it's obvious that there were already Albanoid population in Albania and North Macedonia judging by how some toponyms have been borough by the Slavs. Here we have Ohrid, which I've mentioned earlier, Shtip is also a good example. And these are not originally Albanoid toponyms but close to Shtip there is a mountain called Maleshevo. The very toponym Maleshevo can be explained by the Albanian word for mountain 'mal'. Compare also Malesia in Albania. This is also in line with the work of the Macedonian-Croatian archaeologist Ivan Mikulcic who finds artefacts of the Komani culture as eastern as Maleshevo.
Of course, Maleshevo is not a toponym witnessed by the ancient authors and if we assume when did it aroused, I would say probably in the 6th century with the appearance of the Koman culture. Pity we haven't got much of an evidence but there are some indications that after the devastation caused by the Huns, Goths, Kutrigurs, Getae and others, Justinian started seriously to repair the previous fortifications and even build new ones. I would assume that probably there was need for fresh population and soldiers, guardsmen etc...

Johane Derite
12-17-2020, 04:59 PM
About the archaeological cultures of the Dardanians, Papazoglu claimed that we have not yet discovered the site or sites that explain their cultural continuity.

She also speculated whether the Hallstat layer or the older Urnfield Brnjica culture belonged to the Dardanians:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Epc-vcEXUAYa5XO?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Epc_1-nW8AAFIVE?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Epc_2_EXUAUc1vC?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Johane Derite
12-17-2020, 05:06 PM
To play devil's advocate for the daco-moesian camp, if Brnjica represents the Dardanian language, and with it later Albanian, and it is part of a earlier bronze age origin from Vatin alongside both Gava and Paracin culture, this wouldn't make Albanian Daco-Moesian. It would open the possibility that Paracin and Gava were Daco-Moesian-Getic-Thracoid, whatever you want to call it, and that Dardanian/Albanian had a same origin as them, but did not phylogenetically descend from them.

Just like Tosk is not Gege, they share a common Albanian origin, Dardanian wouldn't then be transformed into Daco-Moesian by having the same origin as them, which were further north.

Johane Derite
12-17-2020, 05:30 PM
Illustrated:

https://i.imgur.com/IqHa9w6.png



So even if Albanian via Dardanian is possibly technically descended from the Brnjica group, which commonly descends from bronze age Vatin culture alongside Perecin and Gava culture, this wouldn't make Albanian Dacian or Moesian, in the same way it would be nonsensical to say Tosk is Gege or Bulgarian and Serbian are the same language because of same origin.

Riverman
12-17-2020, 06:12 PM
Illustrated:

https://i.imgur.com/IqHa9w6.png



So even if Albanian via Dardanian is possibly technically descended from the Brnjica group, which commonly descends from bronze age Vatin culture alongside Perecin and Gava culture, this wouldn't make Albanian Dacian or Moesian, in the same way it would be nonsensical to say Tosk is Gege or Bulgarian and Serbian are the same language because of same origin.

But it could be part of the Daco-Thracian group I guess. About the persistence and importance of Vatin, that's an interesting issue. Let's see how much was more Northern influence. They certainly influenced each other and Vatin was important, but I have difficulties predicting their "survival rate".

Hawk
12-17-2020, 06:44 PM
I was talking about Middle Danube Groups not Gava/Vatin. The middle Danube group were either Proto-Illyrians themselves or heavily influenced Illyrians.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/MlMLE.jpg

broder
12-17-2020, 07:17 PM
If the Urnfield expansion of E-V13 is true that seriously changes of how we should view proto-Albanoids and Proto-Illyrians. Because chances are huge then that E-V13 Z5018 were crucial in forming proto-Albanoids/proto-Illyrians and not J2b2-L283/R1b-Z2103 who might be an earlier EBA Indo-Europeans whose language was lost.

Extremely unlikely for Urnfield to have been responsible for spreading V13 into the Balkans. Cultural influences and religion doesn't always translate into genetic influence.

Hawk
12-17-2020, 07:22 PM
Extremely unlikely for Urnfield to have been responsible for spreading V13 into the Balkans. Cultural influences and religion doesn't always translate into genetic influence.

Kapitan Andrevo was almost exclusively E-V13. And indeed Kapitan Andrevo were descended from Gava archeologically. The ritual pits correspond only in Gava.

The earlier E-V13 split didn't happen in Balkans btw. Since Bulgaria was recently excluded, Albania and Greece are even more unlikely.

What's left? Eastern Urnfield horizon. Where earlier clades are to be found today.

Johane Derite
12-17-2020, 08:27 PM
But it could be part of the Daco-Thracian group I guess. About the persistence and importance of Vatin, that's an interesting issue. Let's see how much was more Northern influence. They certainly influenced each other and Vatin was important, but I have difficulties predicting their "survival rate".

Just going by that paper, which considers these three groups as descending from Vatin.

Hawk
12-18-2020, 08:48 AM
I think it's too clear that the Svilengrad E-V13 was connected with Carpathian basin, add that the ritual pits used in Kapitan Andreevo were used in Gava as well.


Metal objects are rare in the Svilengrad pit complex. Among them figures an interesting iron instrument classified as a trunnion axe. Its shape allows its identification asa chisel of type III 1 C (Wesse). The distribution of this type is dated the periodbetween the eleventh and seventh/sixth century BC and encompasses the westernBalkans and the Carpathian basin; single finds are known from Slovenia and MiddleDnepr region.33 The finds of iron trunnion axes/chisels in Bulgarian territory arelimited and mainly without clear provenance. Most of them were found in NorthBulgaria. Only three samples are known south of the Haemus Mountains: fromOmarchevo, Ada tepe and Dositeevo.34 The Svilengrad find is the southernmost. Itspresence here is not unexpected as long as the cultural contacts from Asia Minorthrough the Balkans westwards were conducted not only by sea but also by land.35

https://www.academia.edu/588112/Ritual_Pit_Complexes_in_Iron_Age_Thrace_The_Case_S tudy_of_Svilengrad


I don't even want to mention the obvious E-V13 clade split from basal which starts to split from Central Europe.

Anyone not spotting these patterns either has an agenda or is not worth taking his opinion.

Here are leaks from Bulgarian Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic:

https://i.imgur.com/ZREWKTh.png

and Bulgarian EBA:

https://proizhod.nauka.bg/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/res2.png

This is not a coincidence IMO. E-V13 started to spread in Balkans from Middle Bronze Age but mostly on Late Bronze Age during the big turmoil of the Bronze Age world.

Riverman
12-18-2020, 10:22 AM
Just going by that paper, which considers these three groups as descending from Vatin.

Vatin was the base, the question is from which contributing group the patrilineages came, which contribution made it. That's almost impossible to answer in the given context by looking at the archaeological remains alone, because of all this forth and back migrations. But its exactly because of this, why I said that the results from Pannonia are important. If Vatin would have brought it, I would have expected more E-V13 already, but let's see what really happened.

Like Hawk said, because of the results obtained so far, both from Pannonia, Bulgaria and Greeks, its most likely E-V13 came with Urnfield, especially Gįva-Holigrady as a primary spreader. Gįva itself is of course influenced by Vatin too one could say, but if it would have been a South -> North influence, I'd say it should have been visible in the record we have already, but instead the first results for E-V13 point to the later Urnfield zone, to groups like the Nitra Culture, Slovakia and Moldova. This fits very well into a scenario in which Southern Urnfield groups were packed with E-V13. Because for moving against the tide from South to North, the Southern regions should have been packed with E-V13, absolutely dominated by it, but they are not even there or only sporadically.

Johane Derite
12-18-2020, 04:49 PM
Vatin was the base, the question is from which contributing group the patrilineages came, which contribution made it. That's almost impossible to answer in the given context by looking at the archaeological remains alone, because of all this forth and back migrations. But its exactly because of this, why I said that the results from Pannonia are important. If Vatin would have brought it, I would have expected more E-V13 already, but let's see what really happened.

Like Hawk said, because of the results obtained so far, both from Pannonia, Bulgaria and Greeks, its most likely E-V13 came with Urnfield, especially Gįva-Holigrady as a primary spreader. Gįva itself is of course influenced by Vatin too one could say, but if it would have been a South -> North influence, I'd say it should have been visible in the record we have already, but instead the first results for E-V13 point to the later Urnfield zone, to groups like the Nitra Culture, Slovakia and Moldova. This fits very well into a scenario in which Southern Urnfield groups were packed with E-V13. Because for moving against the tide from South to North, the Southern regions should have been packed with E-V13, absolutely dominated by it, but they are not even there or only sporadically.

Right, I made that image just to counter a certain comment that Dardani come from brnjica therefore they are daco-moesian.

I still dont really know what to speculate for which specific lineages would have been where without preliminary results.

I also think Brnjica culture need not imply dardanian was linguistically of same branch as other vatin culture ones (and its vatin descendant is contested).

We have today and in medieval era for example multiple different relgious identities among albanians that entailed different burial material culture, while linguistically being albanian nonetheless.

broder
12-18-2020, 07:13 PM
Kapitan Andrevo was almost exclusively E-V13. And indeed Kapitan Andrevo were descended from Gava archeologically. The ritual pits correspond only in Gava.

The earlier E-V13 split didn't happen in Balkans btw. Since Bulgaria was recently excluded, Albania and Greece are even more unlikely.

What's left? Eastern Urnfield horizon. Where earlier clades are to be found today.

How have you come to the conclusion that ritual pits in Thrace derive from Gava? Gava doesn't explain the western Balkan diversity to my opinion, even if it had some V13.

All earlier branches started expanding around 4500-4000ybp, corresponding to the later periods of Beaker and Corder Ware cultures time wise. There are quite few samples from that period around there (southern Poland, Czech republic, Hungary etc). Any V13 around there? Zil. If V13 was up there during the period it started expanding, we should have encountered it by now considering the sample size.

Even later Unetice, Urnfield, Hallstatt and La Tene seem all predominantly western from the samples we have seen (R1b, I2 etc).

We only have one V13 sample in bronze age context from Carpathian basin, so still within the Balkans, from that 'leaked' paper, but we need to wait and see from where exactly, what period and in what archeological context. Other southern regions besides Bulgaria have been barely touched. The further south they will find more even in bronze age context. No need to get emotional about it, we're in no rush. Eventually we will have a clearer picture.

Riverman
12-18-2020, 07:37 PM
How have you come to the conclusion that ritual pits in Thrace derive from Gava? Gava doesn't explain the western Balkan diversity to my opinion, even if it had some V13.

All earlier branches started expanding around 4500-4000ybp, corresponding to the later periods of Beaker and Corder Ware cultures time wise. There are quite few samples from that period around there (southern Poland, Czech republic, Hungary etc). Any V13 around there? Zil. If V13 was up there during the period it started expanding, we should have encountered it by now considering the sample size.

Even later Unetice, Urnfield, Hallstatt and La Tene seem all predominantly western from the samples we have seen (R1b, I2 etc).

We only have one V13 sample in bronze age context from Carpathian basin, so still within the Balkans, from that 'leaked' paper, but we need to wait and see from where exactly, what period and in what archeological context. Other southern regions besides Bulgaria have been barely touched. The further south they will find more even in bronze age context. No need to get emotional about it, we're in no rush. Eventually we will have a clearer picture.

There is no movement and migration of significance which explains the spread in Pannonia and among Celts, other than the Urnfield and Thraco-Cimmerian one. Gava shows ritual pits, that's true, as well as other burial and cultural peculiarities we later find among Thracians. So chances are good Gava at least contributed significantly to Thracians, probably so other people and already within Urnfield, I would assume a spread of E-V13. Don't forget that Urnfield in itself shows Carpathian relations.

Within Urnfield were different cultural provinces and ethnicities and only the South Eastern ones, so Gava in particular, seem to have been E-V13 dominated, the others only influenced at most, to varying degrees, explaining why the later Daco-Thracian sphere is so heavily E-V13, whereas to the West the percentage just decreases, but without an abrupt ending, since it spread with first Urnfield, then the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Hallstatt. In all of Pannonia there was no E-V13 in the BA, but only at the end and in the North, in Slovakia, there was. The spread to the South will be seen to be largely associated with the LBA-EIA transition.

Also, I asked this before, how many clades show a more recent TMRCA later than the EIA between the extremes of Southern Balkan vs. Northern and Western Europe? Most didn't split earlier than the LBA, but had the last time together in the EIA. This means in this phase, between the LBA and the EIA, most of the dispersion took place, most of the exchange between the North and South, most of the radiation from a centre. There is little proof for an earlier spread or longer shared time. Even down to the subclades, most splits happened latest in the EIA, there is not that much overlap between the Balkans and up the North. Yet the migrations we know of, most went North -> South in that time also. Gava is so important because it was an EIA, very innovative culture.

Hawk
12-18-2020, 07:53 PM
How have you come to the conclusion that ritual pits in Thrace derive from Gava? Gava doesn't explain the western Balkan diversity to my opinion, even if it had some V13.

All earlier branches started expanding around 4500-4000ybp, corresponding to the later periods of Beaker and Corder Ware cultures time wise. There are quite few samples from that period around there (southern Poland, Czech republic, Hungary etc). Any V13 around there? Zil. If V13 was up there during the period it started expanding, we should have encountered it by now considering the sample size.

Even later Unetice, Urnfield, Hallstatt and La Tene seem all predominantly western from the samples we have seen (R1b, I2 etc).

We only have one V13 sample in bronze age context from Carpathian basin, so still within the Balkans, from that 'leaked' paper, but we need to wait and see from where exactly, what period and in what archeological context. Other southern regions besides Bulgaria have been barely touched. The further south they will find more even in bronze age context. No need to get emotional about it, we're in no rush. Eventually we will have a clearer picture.

I said Gava was responsible for the Thracian zone, while the MIddle Danube group for the Illyrian zone, the Middle Danube Groups via ships went down to Peloponesse and South Albania, while the Gava-related inland influenced heavily in forming Thracians and the Macedonians.

There is no E-V13 found since originally they should have used cremation, probably Bronze Age Hungarian sites as Nugarev Culture(deeply descended from Dalmatian Cardial Ware farmers) and related ones had E-V13. Probably E-V13 during that time wasn't even numerous, very few members.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-v13/

If you check the tree E-V13 starts splitting in somewhere in Germany, then Italy, Carpathian triangle, so i hypothetize it was in fairly low numbers somewhere between East Alps and West Carpathians eventually growing exponentially in numbers during MIddle Bronze Age and Late Bronze Age, basically exploding in spread mainly in South/East Europe.

I am open to any kind of possibilities, but Albania/Greece looks unlikely to me. Unless some E-V13 survivors were exiled and found a new home around the Carpathian basin and then came back again.

broder
12-18-2020, 08:06 PM
Within Urnfield were different cultural provinces and ethnicities and only the South Eastern ones, so Gava in particular, seem to have been E-V13 dominated, the others only influenced at most, to varying degrees, explaining why the later Daco-Thracian sphere is so heavily E-V13, whereas to the West the percentage just decreases, but without an abrupt ending, since it spread with first Urnfield, then the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Hallstatt. In all of Pannonia there was no E-V13 in the BA, but only at the end and in the North, in Slovakia, there was. The spread to the South will be seen to be largely associated with the LBA-EIA transition.
How do you know Gava were V13 dominated? Again, from that same 'leaked' paper Bronze Age samples from Carpathian basin are predominantly R1b/R1a and I2. There is only one V13, and he may be from the Nitra culture as was speculated.

broder
12-18-2020, 08:24 PM
I said Gava was responsible for the Thracian zone, while the MIddle Danube group for the Illyrian zone, the Middle Danube Groups via ships went down to Peloponesse and South Albania, while the Gava-related inland influenced heavily in forming Thracians and the Macedonians.

There is no E-V13 found since originally they should have used cremation, probably Bronze Age Hungarian sites as Nugarev Culture(deeply descended from Dalmatian Cardial Ware farmers) and related ones had E-V13. Probably E-V13 during that time wasn't even numerous, very few members.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-v13/

If you check the tree E-V13 starts splitting in somewhere in Germany, then Italy, Carpathian triangle, so i hypothetize it was in fairly low numbers somewhere between East Alps and West Carpathians eventually growing exponentially in numbers during MIddle Bronze Age and Late Bronze Age, basically exploding in spread mainly in South/East Europe.

I am open to any kind of possibilities, but Albania/Greece looks unlikely to me. Unless some E-V13 survivors were exiled and found a new home around the Carpathian basin and then came back again.

I am not saying Albania or Greece (definitely not Greece) but regions like Croatia, Montenegro, Kosova, Macedonia, Serbia for the most part haven't even been explored properly let alone tested.

Westerners are overrepresented in Yfull tree. If for example we ever conduct a Sardinia type of study in Albania, hitting the isolated villages too, I will assure you that Yfull tree would be lit with Albanian flags like a Christmas tree. Many unclassified Y37 Albanian samples. Same thing for neighboring regions.

Hawk
12-18-2020, 08:27 PM
I am not saying Albania or Greece (definitely not Greece) but regions like Croatia, Montenegro, Kosova, Macedonia, Serbia for the most part haven't even been explored properly let alone tested.

Westerners are overrepresented in Yfull tree. If for example we ever conduct a Sardinia type of study in Albania, hitting the isolated villages too, I will assure you that Yfull tree would be lit with Albanian flags like a Christmas tree. Many unclassified Y37 Albanian samples. Same thing for neighborhood regions.

It doesn't matter, there will be none in those countries. There is no colossal fortification which separates Albania/Greece from those aforementioned countries. Riverman has absolutely right in his assumptions. I think you are just biased.

We are waiting, still waiting and none of those basal clades from Albania has come out and they will not come out.

broder
12-18-2020, 08:30 PM
Biased in what aspect? Lol

What do I have to be biased for. I am just following the evidence.

Hawk
12-18-2020, 08:34 PM
What evidence? The diversity which doesn't exist, most of the Albanian clades are LBA/EIA indeed.

broder
12-18-2020, 08:58 PM
Ancient DNA mostly and today's diversity to some extent. Oh yeah? What's the TMRCA between you, Albanians under CTS1273*, Z5017, S7461 and PH1246 for example..

DgidguBidgu
12-18-2020, 08:59 PM
I think it's too clear that the Svilengrad E-V13 was connected with Carpathian basin, add that the ritual pits used in Kapitan Andreevo were used in Gava as well.



I don't even want to mention the obvious E-V13 clade split from basal which starts to split from Central Europe.

Anyone not spotting these patterns either has an agenda or is not worth taking his opinion.

Here are leaks from Bulgarian Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic:

https://i.imgur.com/ZREWKTh.png

and Bulgarian EBA:

https://proizhod.nauka.bg/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/res2.png

This is not a coincidence IMO. E-V13 started to spread in Balkans from Middle Bronze Age but mostly on Late Bronze Age during the big turmoil of the Bronze Age world.


Whether the split took place in Central Europe or in the Balkans does not change their status as the same population. The people of this continent were not limited by anything to roam not only in Europe but also to reach Asia and Egypt. So 200-300 km difference means nothing and I see no point in the dispute.

Riverman
12-18-2020, 09:14 PM
I am not saying Albania or Greece (definitely not Greece) but regions like Croatia, Montenegro, Kosova, Macedonia, Serbia for the most part haven't even been explored properly let alone tested.

Westerners are overrepresented in Yfull tree. If for example we ever conduct a Sardinia type of study in Albania, hitting the isolated villages too, I will assure you that Yfull tree would be lit with Albanian flags like a Christmas tree. Many unclassified Y37 Albanian samples. Same thing for neighboring regions.

I'd say you might be right about that, but only a small number will get a more recent TMRCA with the North and West. They just have a better preservation and frequency in Albania, but no source position for the European spread.
Better wait for more Slowakian, Romanian and Moldovan samples. We have already quite a lot Albanian and Serbian project samples, and so far the more basal clades are usually further North.

Hawk
12-18-2020, 09:25 PM
Ancient DNA mostly and today's diversity to some extent. Oh yeah? What's the TMRCA between you, Albanians under CTS1273*, Z5017, S7461 and PH1246 for example..

For each Albanian in those branches you have several others up in the tree from further North, no matter if they are over-represented or no, it's been a while people have been consistently testing and nothing really basal came up. The only viable possible option remains Cetina Culture from Dalmatia, but that would need to explain a lot of impossibilities.

broder
12-18-2020, 09:30 PM
For each Albanian in those branches you have several others up in the tree from further North, no matter if they are over-represented or no, it's been a while people have been consistently testing and nothing really basal came up. The only viable possible option remains Cetina Culture from Dalmatia, but that would need to explain a lot of impossibilities.

Sure, but finding all of those branches and more that diversified during bronze age among a small cohesive nation like Albanian is another thing. Americans today carry all sort of subclades too, but we know how they got there - in the last 500 years.

Hawk
12-18-2020, 09:38 PM
Sure, but finding all of those branches and more that diversified during bronze age among a small cohesive nation like Albanians is another thing. Americans today carry all sort of subclades too, but we know how they got there - in the last 500 years.

The thing is you really have to come up with a good explanation how is it possible for such a dramatic shift from 0 E-V13 during Bulgarian EBA to almost dominantly in EIA. That's something worth considering.

Hawk
12-18-2020, 09:54 PM
So can you explain us what major movement happened during LBA/EIA and from which direction to have such shift on Y-DNA in ancient Thrace?

Riverman
12-18-2020, 10:08 PM
Sure, but finding all of those branches and more that diversified during bronze age among a small cohesive nation like Albanian is another thing. Americans today carry all sort of subclades too, but we know how they got there - in the last 500 years.

You just explained the Albanian results, later spread of E-V13 heavy groups, no source region...


The thing is you really have to come up with a good explanation how is it possible for such a dramatic shift from 0 E-V13 during Bulgarian EBA to almost dominantly in EIA. That's something worth considering.

Almost the same in Pannonia, with a big zone of influence to the West. There is no expansion from the South East in the LBA-EIA of that magnitude and its even worse for the Thracian sphere, where there was no such big West - East migration either.

broder
12-18-2020, 10:28 PM
You just explained the Albanian results, later spread of E-V13 heavy groups, no source region..

What?

Hawk
12-18-2020, 11:06 PM
You didn't answer my question broder.

Riverman
12-18-2020, 11:47 PM
What?

The Albanian situation is like a coloniation event, just like you described for the USA. You can find a lot of clades, even basal ones, in the USA. The first pre-A haplogroup was found in an Afro-American if I remember correctly. So what does that tell you?

I tried to find some Balkan clusters which expansion to Central, Northern and Western Europe did postdate the EIA. There should be some, if you think about Greeks, Romans, Thracian soldiers and modern migrants. But actually there is very little. Most of the Northern TMRCA point to EIA as well, after that, there are little shared lineages. So it just looks like a big dispersion event in the LBA-EIA, rather from a more Northern position, not like a South - North expansion against the tide of all people moving South from Urnfield on.

Kelmendasi
12-19-2020, 01:07 AM
I have been in touch with some very knowledgeable users (albeit less active now) and some interesting things in regards to the archaeological context and background of Kosovo, especially between the Bronze Age and Iron Age, have been said. Their points are based on recent research of excavations in Kosovo that have taken place rather recently (with there being 51 burial sites as of 2020). Below I will post some points that were brought up:

1) It seems that tumuli burials first show up in the region during the Early-to-Middle Bronze Age, as is shown through the Lubozhdė I site in western Kosovo that is dated back to this period. However, there is an exponential increase in tumuli burials between the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age, with these burials then being classified as a part of the Drin variation of the Glasinac-Mati culture. This variant of the Glasinac-Mati culture is an offshoot of the Mati complex, as opposed to the Glasinac one which is rather under studied considering that most analysis has been of sites from the Mati-Drin complex. Tumuli burials are concentrated in the west and central regions of the country.

2) Non-tumuli burials begin to show up during the Middle Bronze Age, however the majority come from the transitional phase (11-9th century BCE) between the Bronze Age and Early Iron Age and are concentrated in the northeast of Kosovo. This shows that the same economic or technological conditions that allowed for the development of tumuli burials are also responsible for the development of non-tumuli burials. And so, this is generally not related to migration patterns.

3) The 42 Glasinac-Mati tumuli burials and sites covered are rather similar in regards to material culture and site organization to the 9 sites where non-tumuli burials were practiced. This indicates that these peoples generally had the same way of life but their elites (since they're elite burials) had begun to diverge economically and culturally. It seems that the non-tumuli burial sites show a higher presence of foreign imports, such as those from Mycenaean Greece, whilst the tumuli sites from the west of the country show little foreign input in regards to trade.

I was also linked this extremely detailed and comprehensive thesis that covers the archaeological context of Kosovo from the Early Bronze Age and up until antiquity https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-02503916/document

Riverman
12-19-2020, 01:36 AM
@Kelmendasi: I like to see a lot of aDNA first then we will see what was a migration and what not. Also where is continuity and where not.

Kelmendasi
12-19-2020, 01:41 AM
@Kelmendasi: I like to see a lot of aDNA first then we will see what was a migration and what not. Also where is continuity and where not.
It would certainly be great to get aDNA from these sites, but doubt we'll see that happen any time soon.

broder
12-19-2020, 04:16 AM
So can you explain us what major movement happened during LBA/EIA and from which direction to have such shift on Y-DNA in ancient Thrace?

I don't have an answer for you atm, but all I could tell you is that Urnfield or Gava to have heavy settled Thrace like you're suggesting doesn't make sense. I'm in no rush to manufacture any theory. I will just wait for new data to resurface, so we will see once we get some DNA from historical Illyrians how things are looking..


The Albanian situation is like a coloniation event, just like you described for the USA. You can find a lot of clades, even basal ones, in the USA. The first pre-A haplogroup was found in an Afro-American if I remember correctly. So what does that tell you?

I tried to find some Balkan clusters which expansion to Central, Northern and Western Europe did postdate the EIA. There should be some, if you think about Greeks, Romans, Thracian soldiers and modern migrants. But actually there is very little. Most of the Northern TMRCA point to EIA as well, after that, there are little shared lineages. So it just looks like a big dispersion event in the LBA-EIA, rather from a more Northern position, not like a South - North expansion against the tide of all people moving South from Urnfield on.

That's the most ridiculous statement I have seen so far on this board. Unlike America, Albania being poor and geographically isolated never yeilded much power to have influenced such immigration. In fact it's the exact opposite, always promoted emigration. The only crazy event that shook the whole Balkans is fall of Rome. But even then we see that Slavs mostly settled the low lands and valleys while Albanians contracted to their Highland environment, at least for a brief period.

Honestly, at this point I am seriously questioning your ability to make sense of this subject.

Hawk
12-19-2020, 07:01 AM
I don't have an answer for you atm, but all I could tell you is that Urnfield or Gava to have heavy settled Thrace like you're suggesting doesn't make sense. I'm in no rush to manufacture any theory. I will just wait for new data to resurface, so we will see once we get some DNA from historical Illyrians how things are looking..

What does it makes sense to you then? There is not options to choose from. All archaeological data i have read and authors say that Balkans was heavily influenced by the East-Urnfield people, if it was heavily influenced then we need to find a Y-DNA candidate. And guess who is the most probable candidate? We all make assumptions, and we are aware that our assumptions might be wrong.

But, somehow your behaviour/reaction is quite fishy to me. That tells me alot.

broder
12-19-2020, 07:55 AM
What does it makes sense to you then? There is not options to choose from. All archaeological data i have read and authors say that Balkans was heavily influenced by the East-Urnfield people, if it was heavily influenced then we need to find a Y-DNA candidate. And guess who is the most probable candidate? We all make assumptions, and we are aware that our assumptions might be wrong.

But, somehow your behaviour/reaction is quite fishy to me. That tells me alot.
Go express your insecurities somewhere else, if you don't have anything valuable to add.. We have derailed this thread enough.

If you have something personal with me and want to resolve it, you can do it via pm or email.

Hawk
12-19-2020, 08:17 AM
Go express your insecurities somewhere else, if you don't have any arguments to support your theory. We have derailed this thread enough.

If you have something personal with and want to resolve it, you can pm or email me.

lol, insecurities, try some other scapegoat.

It's not my theory, i am open to many possibilities, and we do have a lot of evidences. And i can write whatever i want and however i want. This is the first and last time you reply to me like this, understood?!

broder
12-19-2020, 08:53 AM
Yeah, I know who's theory is.

Dude, since I know where your issues is. Honestly I took you for a more mature person but anyway: Regardless of what lineages Urnfield brought down, they most certainly weren't the carriers of the Paleo Balkan languages like Illyrian (Messapian etc), Thracian, Greek and including Albanian. These languages diverged earlier in the steppe from the Western and Balto-Slavic branches. They most certainly entered the Balkans during the early bronze age directly and were among the first settlers.

What could have Urnfield brought you ask. Perhaps BY611, considering we have a BY611* German now, or other odd western subclades found among us. Time will tell.

Hawk
12-19-2020, 09:58 AM
Well, that's not conclusive yet.

For Thracians and Illyrians some archeologists believe they settled during LBA not EBA. At least there is two opposing blocks. And this is a common knowledge.

Riverman
12-19-2020, 11:29 AM
That's the most ridiculous statement I have seen so far on this board. Unlike America, Albania being poor and geographically isolated never yeilded much power to have influenced such immigration. In fact it's the exact opposite, always promoted emigration. The only crazy event that shook the whole Balkans is fall of Rome. But even then we see that Slavs mostly settled the low lands and valleys while Albanians contracted to their Highland environment, at least for a brief period.

Honestly, at this point I am seriously questioning your ability to make sense of this subject.

Please read what I wrote, obviously Albania was not like the USA, but it was settled by an expansion of people from other areas and not a source region. That's the analogy. And yes, you are right about the environment, which is why it was a refuge region. This means when Romans, when the Germanics, the Slavs, the Bulgarians etc. came to the Balkans, the people which might have lived just to the North or West, or to the North East of todays Albania, just like the Vlachs as Romance speakers, sought refuge in places which were not immediately conquered and settled by the newcomers. This is how lineages from other places ended up in what is now Albania, they were the last resort for those old Balkanic people which didn't wanted to assimilate, get subjugates or exterminated and fought on in the hard to access terrain. That's the background of Albanians in my opinion.
But where some of the clans which now live in Albania lived in the Bronze Age, how much very local continuity there is, nobody knows without testing.

And there was no big expansion from what is now Albania to the West, North and East, to spread patrilineages, but on the contrary, in the LBA-EIA, the region was flooded from the relative North.


Regardless of what lineages Urnfield brought down, they most certainly weren't the carriers of the Paleo Balkan languages like Illyrian (Messapian etc), Thracian, Greek and including Albanian. These languages diverged earlier in the steppe from the Western and Balto-Slavic branches. They most certainly entered the Balkans during the early bronze age directly and were among the first settlers.

It is very unlikely that Thracian was in the Balkans in the EBA, considering the almost complete replacement of male lineages and the fact that the earliest waves down were most certainly associated with Proto-Anatolian and Greek in particular. Gįva-Holigrady was also the direct neighbour of the Balto-Slavic Chernoles culture, but already differentiated latest in the MBA from it, so there you have your split too.

Hawk
12-19-2020, 11:51 AM
I agree, LBA was a major change/shift. It was heavy influence, and by what heavy adequates in Y-DNA change is atleast of 20-40% of patrilinear lines getting introduced.

R1b-BY611 barely has 1-2% presence to associate as the solo candidate with the East-Urnfield. Extremely unlikely to me.

Danube Urnfield, Gava, Vatin look like solid candidate to me. Of course we could be wrong, but that's the beauty of it. If we get proven wrong by aDNA and we keep insisting that's what i consider bullshit. But, currently i think it's unlikely we are wrong.

DgidguBidgu
12-19-2020, 06:04 PM
Please read what I wrote, obviously Albania was not like the USA, but it was settled by an expansion of people from other areas and not a source region. That's the analogy. And yes, you are right about the environment, which is why it was a refuge region. This means when Romans, when the Germanics, the Slavs, the Bulgarians etc. came to the Balkans, the people which might have lived just to the North or West, or to the North East of todays Albania, just like the Vlachs as Romance speakers, sought refuge in places which were not immediately conquered and settled by the newcomers. This is how lineages from other places ended up in what is now Albania, they were the last resort for those old Balkanic people which didn't wanted to assimilate, get subjugates or exterminated and fought on in the hard to access terrain. That's the background of Albanians in my opinion.
But where some of the clans which now live in Albania lived in the Bronze Age, how much very local continuity there is, nobody knows without testing.

And there was no big expansion from what is now Albania to the West, North and East, to spread patrilineages, but on the contrary, in the LBA-EIA, the region was flooded from the relative North.



It is very unlikely that Thracian was in the Balkans in the EBA, considering the almost complete replacement of male lineages and the fact that the earliest waves down were most certainly associated with Proto-Anatolian and Greek in particular. Gįva-Holigrady was also the direct neighbour of the Balto-Slavic Chernoles culture, but already differentiated latest in the MBA from it, so there you have your split too.

You have nothing to bind your fabrications with.Where plot Albanians and where other Balkans we know well. Which ethnic groupwhat language they speak, how they group with each others on that base and what is their influence over the IE group in general. Who does not fit the Balkans according to all criteria, including historical documents.Which languages ​​have connection to the pre-Greek toponymy, which cultures and material archeological evidence have in common with the area in question? Where did these so different in your opinion Balkans come from? We know that northwestern Europe is with a replaced population and where it came from, but this does not apply to southern Europe.Just to add that registered Mycenaean inscriptions and their content (J.Chadwick) directly connect an existing modern Balkan ethnic group with Mycenae, so the possibilities for runaround are over.
J. Chadwick, The Mycenaean World, Cambridge University Press, London, 2005
M. Ventris, J. Chadwick, Documents in Mycenaean Greek, Cambridge University Press, London, 1974
A.J. Van Windekens, Le Pélasgique, Essays on an Indo-European Pre-Hellenic Language, Universations Publications, Louvain, 1952

Kelmendasi
12-19-2020, 08:29 PM
Saw on the Gjenetika Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/gjenetika/) that the Y-DNA haplogroup of the Albanian friar and author of the epic The Highland Lute (Lahuta e Malcķs), Gjergj Fishta, was R1b-Z2705. This is based on the testing of a descendant of Lekė Ndoka, the older brother of Fishta (who was originally known as Zef Ndoka). The family themselves originally come from the village of Domgjoni in the region of Fani in Mirdita, however Fishta's grandfather, Simon Ndoc Paci, ended up settling in the village of Fishtė during the 1800s.

trdbr1234
12-19-2020, 09:18 PM
Does anyone have an opinion R-Z2705 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/)? From what can be seen from Yfull, its expansion of 1400ybp and subclades associated with Serbs and Bulgarians and their movements, is it not possible that this lineage was associated with the Slavic expansion? Also, none of the clades show a distribution of 1200ybp, which is what you would expect from an Albanian expansion.

Maybe R-Z2705 is responsible for the elevated Slavic admixture in Northern Albania and Kosovo

Hawk
12-19-2020, 09:28 PM
Does anyone have an opinion R-Z2705 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/)? From what can be seen from Yfull, its expansion of 1400ybp and subclades associated with Serbs and Bulgarians and their movements, is it not possible that this lineage was associated with the Slavic expansion? Also, none of the clades show a distribution of 1200ybp, which is what you would expect from an Albanian expansion.

Maybe R-Z2705 is responsible for the elevated Slavic admixture in Northern Albania and Kosovo

That's not possible. It is an EBA marker, but had an extinct event somewhere in Bronze Age and Iron Age and i think the reason might be E-V13 expansion.

Atleast, that's what happened in Thrace, i expect similar scenario in Illyria.

vasil
12-19-2020, 09:29 PM
Does anyone have an opinion R-Z2705 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/)? From what can be seen from Yfull, its expansion of 1400ybp and subclades associated with Serbs and Bulgarians and their movements, is it not possible that this lineage was associated with the Slavic expansion? Also, none of the clades show a distribution of 1200ybp, which is what you would expect from an Albanian expansion.

Maybe R-Z2705 is responsible for the elevated Slavic admixture in Northern Albania and Kosovo

There is a high chance in my opinion that during the expansion of the First Bulgarian Kingdom into what is today Western Bulgaria, Northern Macedonia and Eastern Serbia the population living there was not completely Slavic its possible that proto-Albanians and Vlachs lived there and that is why we find that Albanians make really young branches with Slavic people from these areas not only R-Z2705 but also E-V13 and J2b2.

Kelmendasi
12-19-2020, 09:29 PM
Does anyone have an opinion R-Z2705 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/)? From what can be seen from Yfull, its expansion of 1400ybp and subclades associated with Serbs and Bulgarians and their movements, is it not possible that this lineage was associated with the Slavic expansion? Also, none of the clades show a distribution of 1200ybp, which is what you would expect from an Albanian expansion.

Maybe R-Z2705 is responsible for the elevated Slavic admixture in Northern Albania and Kosovo
R1b-Z2705 is one of the lineages that is actually best associated with the movements and expansions of Albanian-speakers, and is almost certainly a Proto-Albanian or local Balkan cluster. It shows highest frequency and diversity/basal diversity among Albanians and populations that have significant Albanian patrilineal input - such as Sandžak Bosniaks. In regards to the clusters present among Serbs and other South Slavic groups, they are often parallel to the Albanian clusters or are downstream of certain Albanian samples. There is also the fact that many are of Albanian patrilineal origin, as I mentioned with many of the Bosniaks from Sandžak as well as the Montenegrins and Serbs from tribes such as the Piperi.

As for the TMRCA, there are actually rather distant Albanian Z2705+ samples that have yet to be uploaded to Yfull. If they were to be uploaded, the TMRCA would likely go up to ~2,000 ybp. And by the way, the new Yfull update seems to have underestimated the TMRCAs for many clusters.

Also, R1b-Z2705 wouldn't even explain the apparently elevated Slavic autosomal admixture of North Albanians or Kosovar Albanians considering that Tosk Albanians from the south of the country also have a rather high frequency at ~14-16% and is the second most common lineage among them after E-V13 which is at ~25.2%.

trdbr1234
12-19-2020, 09:41 PM
That's not possible. It is an EBA marker, but had an extinct event somewhere in Bronze Age and Iron Age and i think the reason might be E-V13 expansion.

Atleast, that's what happened in Thrace, i expect similar scenario in Illyria.

Its distribution is only 1400ybp though. Bulgarians and Serbs were established by this point. I can't see how it wasn't associated with their movements. Even if it is ultimately a paleo-Balkan lineage.

vasil
12-19-2020, 09:49 PM
Its distribution is only 1400ybp though. Bulgarians and Serbs were established by this point. I can't see how it wasn't associated with their movements. Even if it is ultimately a paleo-Balkan lineage.

R-Z2705 is Western Bulgarian, Eastern Serbian and Montenegrin thing and those areas at around 600ad were not part of any state. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Bulgaria_under_Presian.png look at this map it was during the 9th century that Bulgaria took control of these areas and Serbia at the time was way to the west before who knows what people lived in these areas.

trdbr1234
12-19-2020, 09:50 PM
There is a high chance in my opinion that during the expansion of the First Bulgarian Kingdom into what is today Western Bulgaria, Northern Macedonia and Eastern Serbia the population living there was not completely Slavic its possible that proto-Albanians and Vlachs lived there and that is why we find that Albanians make really young branches with Slavic people from these areas not only R-Z2705 but also E-V13 and J2b2.

You are proposing that they were pushed westward with the oncoming Bulgarian expansion? That is possible. However, the majority of lines form branches among Serbs and Bulgarians. Only one R-BY147912 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY147912/) can be said to be an Albanian marker. Even this clade however has a basal clade found in Bosnia and the TMRCA is also 1400ybp.

trdbr1234
12-19-2020, 09:54 PM
R1b-Z2705 is one of the lineages that is actually best associated with the movements and expansions of Albanian-speakers, and is almost certainly a Proto-Albanian or local Balkan cluster. It shows highest frequency and diversity/basal diversity among Albanians and populations that have significant Albanian patrilineal input - such as Sandžak Bosniaks. In regards to the clusters present among Serbs and other South Slavic groups, they are often parallel to the Albanian clusters or are downstream of certain Albanian samples. There is also the fact that many are of Albanian patrilineal origin, as I mentioned with many of the Bosniaks from Sandžak as well as the Montenegrins and Serbs from tribes such as the Piperi.

As for the TMRCA, there are actually rather distant Albanian Z2705+ samples that have yet to be uploaded to Yfull. If they were to be uploaded, the TMRCA would likely go up to ~2,000. And by the way, the new Yfull update seems to have underestimated the TMRCAs for many clusters.

Also, R1b-Z2705 wouldn't even explain the apparently elevated Slavic autosomal admixture of North Albanians or Kosovar Albanians considering that Tosk Albanians from the south of the country also have a rather high frequency at ~14-16% and is the second most common lineage among them after E-V13 which is at ~25.2%.

I don't disagree with you but this does sound like the typical gjenetika and Skerdelaid type of nonsenses. Frequency is irrelevant to its origins when everyone in the clade originates from one man 1400ybp.

Also, gjenetika and Skerdilaid always talk about some lines in the pipeline that are coming soon, and never come up. Just nonsense. Y-full is facts.

It would explain a Slavic presence in the region and Y-DNA associated with that it.

vasil
12-19-2020, 09:57 PM
You are proposing that they were pushed westward with the oncoming Bulgarian expansion? That is possible. However, the majority of lines form branches among Serbs and Bulgarians. Only one R-BY147912 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY147912/) can be said to be an Albanian marker. Even this clade however has a basal clade found in Bosnia and the TMRCA is also 1400ybp.

Yes pretty much but i would say not pushed West but South West i think these areas would have been Vlach and Maybe proto-Albanian speaking of course there would have been some Slavs but they wouldnt have been dominant and then when First Bulgarian Kingdom expanded into those areas they were completely Slavicised.

Kelmendasi
12-19-2020, 10:00 PM
I don't disagree with you but this does sound like the typical gjenetika and Skerdelaid type of nonsenses. Frequency is irrelevant to its origins when everyone in the clade originates from one man 1400ybp.

Also, gjenetika and Skerdilaid always talk about some lines in the pipeline that are coming soon, and never come up. Just nonsense. Y-full is facts.
I did not only mention frequency, but also diversity and the distribution of basal clusters. There was also the fact that many of the South Slavic samples have distant or in some cases recent Albanian paternal ancestry. And the ~1,400 ybp estimation is certainly an underestimation.

I did not receive this information from the admins of Gjenetika by the way, but rather from one of the admins of the Rrėnjėt project who's very knowledgeable on R1b-Z2705. And those samples aren't in the "pipeline", they simply haven't been uploaded to Yfull yet. Yfull certainly is not facts, it's very helpful and accurate in many aspects, but definitely shouldn't be held as an authority.

trdbr1234
12-19-2020, 10:07 PM
I did not only mention frequency, but also diversity and the distribution of basal clusters. There was also the fact that many of the South Slavic samples have distant or in some cases recent Albanian paternal ancestry. And the ~1,400 ybp estimation is certainly an underestimation.

I did not receive this information from the admins of Gjenetika by the way, but rather from one of the admins of the Rrėnjėt project who's very knowledgeable on R1b-Z2705. And those samples aren't in the "pipeline", they simply haven't been uploaded to Yfull yet. Yfull certainly is not facts, it's very helpful and accurate in many aspects, but definitely shouldn't be held as an authority.

Underestimation by how much?

I'm basing my opinion on what's on Yfull. I'll change my opinion once they are uploaded on Yfull. I don't see the basal Albanians on YFull.

Kelmendasi
12-19-2020, 10:15 PM
Underestimation by how much?

I'm basing my opinion on what's on Yfull. I'll change my opinion once they are uploaded on Yfull. I don't see the basal Albanians on YFull.
From what I was told, it could go up to ~2,000 ybp give or take, though based on the basal markers of those samples I'd definitely say that TMRCA is fairly accurate. You could reach out to this admin too if you want further clarification or information on R1b-Z2705.

That's perfectly fine, however I do not think that evidence and data outside of Yfull should be disregarded simply because it's not from Yfull or that you haven't seen it. You could come up with all sorts of theories if you were to base yourself solely on Yfull, for example J1-P58 is very overrepresented among Arabs on Yfull. If I was to base things on this, I would suggest that P58 arose somewhere in the Arabian Peninsula, however other data proves otherwise.

trdbr1234
12-19-2020, 10:28 PM
From what I was told, it could go up to ~2,000 ybp give or take, though based on the basal markers of those samples I'd definitely say that TMRCA is fairly accurate. You could reach out to this admin too if you want further clarification or information on R1b-Z2705.

That's perfectly fine, however I do not think that evidence and data outside of Yfull should be disregarded simply because it's not from Yfull or that you haven't seen it. You could come up with all sorts of theories if you were to base yourself solely on Yfull, for example J1-P58 is very overrepresented among Arabs on Yfull. If I was to base things on this, I would suggest that P58 arose somewhere in the Arabian Peninsula, however other data proves otherwise.

Do they form a parallel branch with what's already on Full? It is difficult to make assumptions based on anecdotes.

Yfull is relevant in regards to R-Z2705 because there is good representation throughout the history of the line. It does not have good representation for J1-P58 and is not therefore useful yet for J1-P58.

Kelmendasi
12-19-2020, 10:34 PM
Do they form a parallel branch with what's already on Full? It is difficult to make assumptions based on anecdotes.

Yfull is relevant in regards to R-Z2705 because there is good representation throughout the history of the line. It does not have good representation for J1-P58 and is not therefore useful yet for J1-P58.
From what I remember, there are basal BY38894* as well as even Z2705* clusters, which may form new parallels. I would suggest getting into contact with that admin, I believe you know who I'm referring to, but if not I can PM you as I do not want to name anyone on the forum without their consent. He's a lot more knowledgeable on the topic than I am, and also a lot more aware of the samples since he administers them.

I was just using J1-P58 as an example of how Yfull has its flaws. There is an overwhelming abundance of evidence in regards to R1b-Z2705 that points towards a Proto-Albanian association, whilst the supposed reasons for a Slavic expansion are limited and I would say even superficial. However, I understand that you want to see those samples yourself, so I would suggest getting into contact with said admin as he'll have more information in regards to them and Z2705 as a whole.

trdbr1234
12-19-2020, 10:40 PM
I would suggest getting into contact with that admin, I believe you know who I'm referring to, but if not I can PM you as I do not want to name anyone on the forum without their consent. He's a lot more knowledgeable on the topic than I am, and also a lot more aware of the samples since he administers them.

I was just using J1-P58 as an example of how Yfull has its flaws. There is an overwhelming abundance of evidence in regards to R1b-Z2705 that points towards a Proto-Albanian association, whilst the supposed reasons for a Slavic expansion are limited and I would say even superficial. However, I understand that you want to see those samples yourself, so I would suggest getting into contact with said admin as he'll have more information in regards to them and Z2705 as a whole.

I am curious to hear your opinion. Why do you think there's an abundance of evidence pointing to an Albanian expansion?

Exercitus
12-20-2020, 04:23 AM
http://rrenjet.com/r-by147912/

Exercitus
12-20-2020, 05:23 AM
Settlement since the bronze age:
The Z2705 males were the only surviving members of a larger Y23373 group that migrated from eastern and settled in the area of southeastern Europe in the bronze age and survived a plague, famine, or genocide not long before 500 CE -... but the TMRCA could be ~2,000 ybp give or take!!! - by finding refuge in the Malesia mountains where we can find the highest uniform distribution and which serves as the epicenter of the Z2705 in southeastern Europe. From the current genealogical information collected from the Z2705 haplogroup carriers in Albania, Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia, and Bulgaria, their ancestors are almost exclusively confined to the area of the Malesia mountains, the lake of Shkoder, and the neighboring regions.

Like the today Albanian which belong to hg R1a\I2a had Slavic ancestors - mostly! - ~1400 years ago, also those modern Bosnian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Montenegrin listed at Yfull had proto-Albanian ancestors ~1400 years ago (please dont be to euphoric concerning the vlachs, in the V century AD there was a much more highter probability to find a proto-Albanian then a proto-Romanian in an area streching from Koman to Nish, also the Serbian Chrysobulls of the XIV century were quite limited compared with the Ottoman Defters of the XV-XVI centuries!).

The carriers of R-Z2705 as other branches under R1b-M269, brought the I.E proto-Albanian (western Balkanic-'Illyrian') language!!

http://www.gjenetika.com/adn-antike-nga-kultura-maros-serbi-veriore/

http://rrenjet.com/r1b-m269/

Hawk
12-20-2020, 10:37 AM
To me i have no doubt that R1b-Z2103 in Western Balkans ended up as their cousins in Thrace, getting replaced in big numbers by E-V13 during LBA/EIA. Then after the Justinian Plague, which opened a power vacuum just bottlenecked again to a degree.

davit
12-20-2020, 01:06 PM
To me i have no doubt that R1b-Z2103 in Western Balkans ended up as their cousins in Thrace, getting replaced in big numbers by E-V13 during LBA/EIA. Then after the Justinian Plague, which opened a power vacuum just bottlenecked again to a degree.

Does that mean E-V13 caused a decrease in Yamnaya/Catacomb related ancestry?

Riverman
12-20-2020, 01:26 PM
Does that mean E-V13 caused a decrease in Yamnaya/Catacomb related ancestry?

In the North the Corded Ware groups met some of TCC or Lengyel-related descendants. With those they mixed, creating new hybrid cultures. When those groups moved South, they did rather increase steppe ancestry, but they decreased specific Yamnaya/Catacomb ancestry most likely, as it was more Corded Ware-related steppe ancestry which they spread together with farmer one.

Kelmendasi
12-20-2020, 01:37 PM
There's a new article from the Rrėnjėt project website on Y-DNA haplogroup R1b-CTS9219 (http://rrenjet.com/r-cts9219/).

In regards to R1b-Z2705, the article states that the general TMRCA should be ~1,500 ybp with the expansion having occurred from the north of Albania. It is also stated that there are clusters under BY611/Y10789 found between the Alps and Hungary that may split the group further, with the TMRCAs probably being between ~2,600-3,300 ybp.

https://i.postimg.cc/Hx8j00gS/R-Z2705-1-03-2048x618.png

https://i.postimg.cc/nrvzgHMB/Harta-R-Z2705-1-03-768x707.png

Hawk
12-20-2020, 01:52 PM
Does that mean E-V13 caused a decrease in Yamnaya/Catacomb related ancestry?

By Y-DNA frequency yes, by autosomal i don't know.

Riverman
12-20-2020, 02:55 PM
By Y-DNA frequency yes, by autosomal i don't know.

Depends on whether you count Corded Ware as Yamnaya-like ancestry 1:1 ("general steppe ancestry") or not. If you would, they would have caused an increase. But direct Yamnaya/Catacomb they did decrease, because they were of a different branch, Corded Ware related, not directly Yamnaya/Catacomb.

Hawk
12-20-2020, 09:04 PM
Depends on whether you count Corded Ware as Yamnaya-like ancestry 1:1 ("general steppe ancestry") or not. If you would, they would have caused an increase. But direct Yamnaya/Catacomb they did decrease, because they were of a different branch, Corded Ware related, not directly Yamnaya/Catacomb.

There was a change in climate conditions during Middle Bronze Age around 3500 YBP in East-Central Europe.


Archaeological evidence points to substantial changes in Bronze Age societies in the European-Mediterranean region. Isotope geochemical proxies have been compiled to provide independent ancillary data to improve the paleoenvironmental history for the period of interest and support the interpretation of the archaeological observations. In addition to published compositions, in this study we gathered new H isotope data from fluid inclusion hosted water from a stalagmite of the Trió Cave, Southern Hungary, and compared the H isotope data with existing stable isotope and trace element compositions reported for the stalagmite. Additionally, animal bones and freshwater bivalve shells (Unio sp.) were collected from Bronze Age archaeological excavations around Lake Balaton and their stable C and O isotope compositions were measured in order to investigate climate changes and lake evolution processes during this period. The data indicate warm and humid conditions with elevated summer precipitation around 3.7 cal ka BP (Before Present, where present is 1950 CE), followed by a short-term deterioration in environmental conditions at about 3.5 cal ka BP. The environment became humid and cold with winter precipitation dominance around 3.5 to 3.4 cal ka BP, then gradually changed to drier conditions at ∼3.2 cal ka BP. Significant cultural changes have been inferred for this period on the basis of observations during archaeological excavations. The most straightforward consequences of environmental variations have been found in changes of settlement structure. The paleoclimatological picture is well in line with other East-Central European climate records, indicating that the climate fluctuations took place on a regional scale.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1040618217309448


Read this as well: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321288002_Middle_Bronze_Age_humidity_and_temperatu re_variations_and_societal_changes_in_East-Central_Europe

This climate change might have triggered the movement, i have read somewhere that this climate change caused famine as well.

XXD
12-23-2020, 10:49 PM
Pay attention to the blue zone in this map, with the least slavic toponyms. Mati (MT) is also the zone with the least roman toponyms in all of Albania (not none, but least). It is also the zone with highest Albanian toponyms. This region is also where the Albanoi tribe and Albanopolis are mentioned by Ptolemy in 150AD.

Now, see this map where Illyrian toponyms survived the most:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElXKeDEXEAUbwly?format=jpg&name=medium

It coincides with the same blue zone.

Thank you for this really cool post. I think this is so far the most convincing post about an Illyrian/Dardanian origin of Albanians, make sense with the toponym of Mati, and is also above the Jirecek line, which also explains the Latin loanwords in Albanian.

Kelmendasi
12-25-2020, 08:54 PM
Was looking at the Rrėnjėt project Facebook page, and I saw an interesting post (https://www.facebook.com/101700961530810/photos/a.124482625919310/216745833359655/?type=3&theater) in regards to Y-DNA cluster E-BY105970 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY105970/) - the group that dominates the Kelmendi tribal territory. It turns out that two anas or old brotherhoods of Hoti have tested positive for this branch, with them being fairly close to the Kelmendi cluster but still outside of it. I am unsure as to which brotherhoods exactly these two Old Hoti come from, however according to Ndue Bacaj (https://zanimalsise.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/ZANI%20I%20MALESISE-PRILL%202019_interneti-23%20MARS%202019.pdf?_t=1554306802) the following brotherhoods of Hot are anas: Locaj, Dakaj, Markaj and Vuksanaj. In Malėsi, BY105970 is also found in a single sample from Kastrat. It is pretty clear that this cluster has an early presence in the region.

https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/132955116_216745840026321_9199706745462853190_n.pn g?_nc_cat=102&ccb=2&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=Np6I5eZ1D_0AX_QSy5H&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=b21cd9b5e0e8ab73eeaff916d1dce43a&oe=600A78DA

Hawk
12-25-2020, 11:12 PM
Was looking at the Rrėnjėt project Facebook page, and I saw an interesting post (https://www.facebook.com/101700961530810/photos/a.124482625919310/216745833359655/?type=3&theater) in regards to Y-DNA cluster E-BY105970 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY105970/) - the group that dominates the Kelmendi tribal territory. It turns out that two anas or old brotherhoods of Hoti have tested positive for this branch, with them being fairly close to the Kelmendi cluster but still outside of it. I am unsure as to which brotherhoods exactly these two Old Hoti come from, however according to Ndue Bacaj (https://zanimalsise.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/ZANI%20I%20MALESISE-PRILL%202019_interneti-23%20MARS%202019.pdf?_t=1554306802) the following brotherhoods of Hot are anas: Locaj, Dakaj, Markaj and Vuksanaj. In Malėsi, BY105970 is also found in a single sample from Kastrat. It is pretty clear that this cluster has an early presence in the region.

https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/132955116_216745840026321_9199706745462853190_n.pn g?_nc_cat=102&ccb=2&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=Np6I5eZ1D_0AX_QSy5H&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=b21cd9b5e0e8ab73eeaff916d1dce43a&oe=600A78DA

What about other anas Y-DNA?

And about the non-anas, where did they come from? Are the myths from Herzegovina and surroundings true?

Kelmendasi
12-26-2020, 01:55 PM
What about other anas Y-DNA?

And about the non-anas, where did they come from? Are the myths from Herzegovina and surroundings true?
There are some other anas Hoti results from around Zeta and Plav in Montenegro, Tropojė and Kosovo that are R1b-Z2705 or J2b-PH1751. As for other tribes, the anas Pepushaj brotherhood of Kelmend has tested as E-BY105970 and so belong to the same patrilineal progenitor as the Kelmendi fis. The Muriqi brotherhood belong to various R1b-Z2705+ clusters and there are brotherhoods of Kelmendi that claim to belong to the fis but have turned out to belong to different clusters, such as J2b-Y82533, and so were picked up and absorbed into the dominating tribe. The Bekaj of Trieshi are R1b-Z2705 and J1-Y19093, and the Berishaj of Gruda are R1b-Z2705. The Vukēaj brotherhood of Lohja has tested as J2b-Y22059.

I believe that the core or non-anas fise are simply local or that they came from nearby Albanian-speaking regions and later came to dominate the other fise that were present in the area. Not all of the tribes claim to have come from Herzegovina or 'Bosnia', it is only the following: Hoti, Trieshi, Krasniqi, Nikaj and Shkreli. The first four all claim to have descended from a certain Keq (patronymic surname given as Preka, Ponti or Panta) who was a Catholic Albanian and had come from 'Bosnia' according to some stories. I believe in this case 'Bosnia' referred to the later Ottoman understanding of the name, and so mainly referring to the Eyalet of Bosnia which also covered areas of Sandžak (Sanxhak). We know that the first references to the Hoti is from the chrysobulls of Dečani in 1330 where the toponym Hotina Gora (mountains of Hoti) is recorded in the area of Plav and Gusinje, and Edmond Malaj also claims that between 1353 and 1363 there were two movements of the Hoti into another location in Plav and into Limaj near Peja. By 1414, they had already settled in Malėsi where they start to grow in prominence.

As for the Trieshi and Krasniqi-Nikaj, they likely just adopted a similar oral tradition as Y-DNA testing proves that they do not share the same cluster as the Hoti. 'Bosnia' in the case of the Shkreli also probably refers to the Eyalet of Bosnia rather than the present-day nation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Baron Nopcsa believed them to have come from the Sanjak of Novi Pazar for example, whilst some like Hyacinthe Hecquard noted Peja. The Shkreli themselves are first recorded in the cadaster of Scutari (Shkodra) in 1416. Edith Durham claimed that a part of the Gruda had come from Herzegovina, however the actual oral tradition of the tribe (the Vuksangelaj specifically) states the region of Suma near Shkodra as the place of origin. In the Dečani chrysobulls of 1330 as certain Pjetėr Suma is recoded as a part of the Albanian katun (arbanas katun) between the Tuzi municipality and Koplik. I also know that the Franciscan priest Gabriel recounted a story that the Kelmendi stemmed from a Venetian priest who had fled the region of Venetian Dalmatia or Herzegovina, the most widespread oral traditions of this tribe however states that the progenitor had either originally come from an unkown region or that he had come from Montenegro. And the relation to the anas Hoti in my opinion strengthens the claim for a more local origin.

trdbr1234
12-26-2020, 09:56 PM
......

Halil Teodori proposes that "Western Golloborde" belonged to "Gryka e Zajeve" and is not part of "Golloborde" nor has it ever been. Never heard "Gryka e Zajeve" mentioned anywhere. Do you know anything about this? This article seems completely nonsensical to me. Namely he thinks his surname Teodori is directly ancestral to ancient Dardans that found refuge in "Gryka e Zajeve". lolll He seems to also completely omit that bilingualism was also present in "Gryka e Zajeve"

http://rrugaearberit.com/2020/11/06/golloborda-dhe-dibra-nje-ngulmim-per-te-krijuar-nje-panorame-sa-me-te-plote-dhe-sa-me-te-qarte-njohese-historike/

Kelmendasi
12-27-2020, 04:27 AM
Halil Teodori proposes that "Western Golloborde" belonged to "Gryka e Zajeve" and is not part of "Golloborde" nor has it ever been. Never heard "Gryka e Zajeve" mentioned anywhere. Do you know anything about this? This article seems completely nonsensical to me. Namely he thinks his surname Teodori is directly ancestral to ancient Dardans that found refuge in "Gryka e Zajeve". lolll He seems to also completely omit that bilingualism was also present in "Gryka e Zajeve"

http://rrugaearberit.com/2020/11/06/golloborda-dhe-dibra-nje-ngulmim-per-te-krijuar-nje-panorame-sa-me-te-plote-dhe-sa-me-te-qarte-njohese-historike/
I can try ask some of my relatives who are from the area, however I doubt that they are aware of this name as I haven't heard of it before. Nor have I been able to find any literature about it, apart from this article.

The article for the most part seems rather questionable to say the least, especially the whole narrative of his paternal line descending from ancient Dardanian kings. However, he does say somethings of interest. For example, he states that the Stafa of Okshtun had settled in the village of Zabzun since they had their shepherd huts there. So this would mean that the family of former Communist Qemal Stafa was originally from Okshtun, and that he should have been R1a-Y133383. He also brings up that the Albanian spoken in the bilingual villages is largely Standard Albanian, rather than a local dialect. I believe this was also brought up in Alexander Novik's book on the region, though I'll have to double check this. Do you know anything about this? I remember that the dialect of the solely Albanian-speaking villages was for the most part Central Geg according to the studies, whilst some other villages had a mixed or predominantly Southern Geg dialect with some Central Geg influence. I would have thought it far more likely that the bilingual villages also spoke a local dialect considering that many maintained good relations and contact with the Albanian-speaking ones, maybe this depends from village to village.

trdbr1234
12-27-2020, 07:27 AM
I can try ask some of my relatives who are from the area, however I doubt that they are aware of this name as I haven't heard of it before. Nor have I been able to find any literature about it, apart from this article.

The article for the most part seems rather questionable to say the least, especially the whole narrative of his paternal line descending from ancient Dardanian kings. However, he does say somethings of interest. For example, he states that the Stafa of Okshtun had settled in the village of Zabzun since they had their shepherd huts there. So this would mean that the family of former Communist Qemal Stafa was originally from Okshtun, and that he should have been R1a-Y133383. He also brings up that the Albanian spoken in the bilingual villages is largely Standard Albanian, rather than a local dialect. I believe this was also brought up in Alexander Novik's book on the region, though I'll have to double check this. Do you know anything about this? I remember that the dialect of the solely Albanian-speaking villages was for the most part Central Geg according to the studies, whilst some other villages had a mixed or predominantly Southern Geg dialect with some Central Geg influence. I would have thought it far more likely that the bilingual villages also spoke a local dialect considering that many maintained good relations and contact with the Albanian-speaking ones, maybe this depends from village to village.

I believe Stafa is confirmed R1a-Y133383 by "Dibran". I will have to ask him.

I forgot if it was Novik or someone else that stated that men specifically prefer to convers in Albanian because they lack technical words in Macedonian. I believe Mehemt Hasani also stated that the traditional songs of men were mostly sung in Albanian. I am not entirely sure how true these statements are or why there would be a gender based preference but I think it does attest to a natural presence of the Albanian language, in my opinion.

The dialectal situation is bit complex tbh. My family emigrated a few generations ago to the cities and speak standard Albanian, with my father also speaking the local Macedonian dialect. However, conversations I've had with others, the Albanian dialect from Pasinke from testimony from people that emigrated 40-50 years ago, is the same one spoken in Diber Madhe. Which follows the same trend as the Macedonian dialect there is also the same one from Diber Madhe. In Klenje for example, the Albanian dialect there is the same as Borove, which is closer to Central Gheg, which also follows the Macedonian dialect spoken there, which is the Golloborda/Drimkolli Macedonian dialect. It seems to me that the dialectal variants of Macedonian and Albanian overlap the same geographical areas, which I find interesting.

However, in Trebisht, Ostren and even Pasinke and other villages, standard Albanian predominates today. Which is undoubtedly a result of schooling and media. Because of this, I think former layers of the Albanian dialect there may have disappeared, if there ever was any. It is a bit complex because even the local Gheg variant spoken by emigrants from 40-50 years ago can be explained through schooling. The local Macedonian dialect is also disappearing and standard Macedonian is more frequently being used.

Kelmendasi
12-27-2020, 03:42 PM
I believe Stafa is confirmed R1a-Y133383 by "Dibran". I will have to ask him.

I forgot if it was Novik or someone else that stated that men specifically prefer to convers in Albanian because they lack technical words in Macedonian. I believe Mehemt Hasani also stated that the traditional songs of men were mostly sung in Albanian. I am not entirely sure how true these statements are or why there would be a gender based preference but I think it does attest to a natural presence of the Albanian language, in my opinion.

The dialectal situation is bit complex tbh. My family emigrated a few generations ago to the cities and speak standard Albanian, with my father also speaking the local Macedonian dialect. However, conversations I've had with others, the Albanian dialect from Pasinke from testimony from people that emigrated 40-50 years ago, is the same one spoken in Diber Madhe. Which follows the same trend as the Macedonian dialect there is also the same one from Diber Madhe. In Klenje for example, the Albanian dialect there is the same as Borove, which is closer to Central Gheg, which also follows the Macedonian dialect spoken there, which is the Golloborda/Drimkolli Macedonian dialect. It seems to me that the dialectal variants of Macedonian and Albanian overlap the same geographical areas, which I find interesting.

However, in Trebisht, Ostren and even Pasinke and other villages, standard Albanian predominates today. Which is undoubtedly a result of schooling and media. Because of this, I think former layers of the Albanian dialect there may have disappeared, if there ever was any. It is a bit complex because even the local Gheg variant spoken by emigrants from 40-50 years ago can be explained through schooling. The local Macedonian dialect is also disappearing and standard Macedonian is more frequently being used.
Yes, so if the Stafa of Zabzun are essentially just a branch of those from Okshtun, then Qemal Stafa and his paternal line should be R1a-Y133383.

Very interesting in regards to the linguistic situation of the bilingual villages. The linguistic study conducted by Novik's team in Borovė concluded that the dialect of Albanian was closer to Southern Geg and that it lacked certain key features of Central Geg; such as a lack of a /g/>/gj/ transition. Words typical of the Southern Geg dialects of Central Albania, such as ēun (boy or son), were also present. The general conclusion was that in the Albanian-speaking villages of this region there was not necessarily a common dialect of Albanian between the villages, for example villages such as Tėrbaē speak a typical Central Geg dialect whilst villages such as Okshtun and Borova speak dialects with features from both Central and Southern Geg, with the Southern Geg features being far stronger in the dialect of the latter village. This seems to be partly attributed to the migratory patterns and settlements that have taken place in the village, since some families from Borova claim to have come from the highlands of Ēermenika and Librazhdi which speak dialects of Southern Geg, whilst others (such as my maternal side) claim to have come from the villages around Mati (Guri i Bardhė, Macukull,. etc.) which speak dialects of Central Geg.

trdbr1234
12-27-2020, 07:18 PM
Yes, so if the Stafa of Zabzun are essentially just a branch of those from Okshtun, then Qemal Stafa and his paternal line should be R1a-Y133383.

Very interesting in regards to the linguistic situation of the bilingual villages. The linguistic study conducted by Novik's team in Borovė concluded that the dialect of Albanian was closer to Southern Geg and that it lacked certain key features of Central Geg; such as a lack of a /g/>/gj/ transition. Words typical of the Southern Geg dialects of Central Albania, such as ēun (boy or son), were also present. The general conclusion was that in the Albanian-speaking villages of this region there was not necessarily a common dialect of Albanian between the villages, for example villages such as Tėrbaē speak a typical Central Geg dialect whilst villages such as Okshtun and Borova speak dialects with features from both Central and Southern Geg, with the Southern Geg features being far stronger in the dialect of the latter village. This seems to be partly attributed to the migratory patterns and settlements that have taken place in the village, since some families from Borova claim to have come from the highlands of Ēermenika and Librazhdi which speak dialects of Southern Geg, whilst others (such as my maternal side) claim to have come from the villages around Mati (Guri i Bardhė, Macukull,. etc.) which speak dialects of Central Geg.

Y-DNA lines of the region tend to be more basal, which is a hard refutation to any migratory theory. Have you found any evidence of the migration?

The complete lack of R1b-Z2705 is a big stumble into any migratory theory, as any migration from interior Albania would have brought R1b-Z2705 into the area.

The Albanian dialectal differences in Western and Northern Golloborde can be explained by recent language shifts. I think this is the most likely explanation, especially since there is no known recent migration into the area that can explain the dialectal variations.

Korabi
12-27-2020, 08:04 PM
Y-DNA lines of the region tend to be more basal, which is a hard refutation to any migratory theory. Have you found any evidence of the migration?

The complete lack of R1b-Z2705 is a big stumble into any migratory theory, as any migration from interior Albania would have brought R1b-Z2705 into the area.

The Albanian dialectal differences in Western and Northern Golloborde can be explained by recent language shifts. I think this is the most likely explanation, especially since there is no known recent migration into the area that can explain the dialectal variations.

Hilmi Sadikaj claims the original inhabitants of Western Golloborde all left in 2 waves. Not sure what he says of the eastern part of the region. The first was after the death of Skanderbeg, towards the sea(i guess Durres?) The 2nd was due to blood feuding with Martanesh(these migrated East). More specifically in the case of Oreshnje, Okshtun. He then states based on local oral legends that most of the brotherhoods of Okshtun arrived between 1600-1650 and were quickly converted. The original inhabitants were supposedly Catholic that left it empty. Most(not all) of the brotherhoods are mentioned as migrating from somewhere around Mat border to Okshtun Madhe in 1600. Others came later in 1650, though no mention of which direction they came from.

Kelmendasi
12-27-2020, 08:13 PM
Y-DNA lines of the region tend to be more basal, which is a hard refutation to any migratory theory. Have you found any evidence of the migration?

The complete lack of R1b-Z2705 is a big stumble into any migratory theory, as any migration from interior Albania would have brought R1b-Z2705 into the area.

The Albanian dialectal differences in Western and Northern Golloborde can be explained by recent language shifts. I think this is the most likely explanation, especially since there is no known recent migration into the area that can explain the dialectal variations.
Which clusters do you have in mind that are more basal? There are a few clusters found in the area that are also present in other ethnographic regions that share TMRCAs within ~1,400 ybp, such as J2b-Y82978 and R1b-FGC40202. This does not mean that there was any recent migration into the area, but I does show connections and matches with other ones. A very interesting cluster found in the region that also has a high TMRCA is J2b-FT29003 which is also present in a Spanish sample, his TMRCA with the Albanians should be ~3,400 ybp. However, If I recall correctly one of the samples does in fact have origin from a village in Mat, Keta. I am not sure what the TMRCA is between the Albanians themselves.

I do not think that the lack of R1b-Z2705 necessarily suggests that no migrations took place into the region, frequencies of R1b-Z2705 as a whole fluctuates from area to area. I also do think that R1b-Z2705 will show up in Gollobordė eventually, even if the area has a overall lower frequency. A Balkan Turk sample from North Macedonia, who has origin from Zabzun, has tested as Z2705+.

In my opinion it is very unlikely that this region was somehow unaffected by migrations, especially from those that are nearby such as Mati or Librazhd. We know that the region was heavily ravaged by wars, especially during the Albanian-Ottoman wars, this makes it all the more likely for migrations to have taken place - internally or externally. There are also these oral traditions that shouldn't automatically be dismissed. What recent language shifts do you think took place?

Kelmendasi
12-27-2020, 08:42 PM
Hilmi Sadikaj claims the original inhabitants of Western Golloborde all left in 2 waves. Not sure what he says of the eastern part of the region. The first was after the death of Skanderbeg, towards the sea(i guess Durres?) The 2nd was due to blood feuding with Martanesh(these migrated East). More specifically in the case of Oreshnje, Okshtun. He then states based on local oral legends that most of the brotherhoods of Okshtun arrived between 1600-1650 and were quickly converted. The original inhabitants were supposedly Catholic that left it empty. Most(not all) of the brotherhoods are mentioned as migrating from somewhere around Mat border to Okshtun Madhe in 1600. Others came later in 1650, though no mention of which direction they came from.
Interesting, in order to verify this I think we would have to look at records referencing the populations sizes of the region from the 15th century all the way into the 17th or 18th. We do have the Ottoman defter of Dibra of 1467 which does give some insight as to the number of households in each villages. Okshtun itself only had 7 households in 1467, which is rather small compared to the other villages nearby. The largest villages seem to have been Trebisht with 30 households, and Borova with 27 households.

I was also wondering if you know what Sadikaj says in regards to Borova?

Korabi
12-27-2020, 09:04 PM
Interesting, in order to verify this I think we would have to look at records referencing the populations sizes of the region from the 15th century all the way into the 17th or 18th. We do have the Ottoman defter of Dibra of 1467 which does give some insight as to the number of households in each villages. Okshtun itself only had 7 households in 1467, which is rather small compared to the other villages nearby. The largest villages seem to have been Trebisht with 30 households, and Borova with 27 households.

I was also wondering if you know what Sadikaj says in regards to Borova?

I can check and see what I find.