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trdbr1234
12-27-2020, 10:03 PM
Which clusters do you have in mind that are more basal? There are a few clusters found in the area that are also present in other ethnographic regions that share TMRCAs within ~1,400 ybp, such as J2b-Y82978 and R1b-FGC40202. This does not mean that there was any recent migration into the area, but I does show connections and matches with other ones. A very interesting cluster found in the region that also has a high TMRCA is J2b-FT29003 which is also present in a Spanish sample, his TMRCA with the Albanians should be ~3,400 ybp. However, If I recall correctly one of the samples does in fact have origin from a village in Mat, Keta. I am not sure what the TMRCA is between the Albanians themselves.

I do not think that the lack of R1b-Z2705 necessarily suggests that no migrations took place into the region, frequencies of R1b-Z2705 as a whole fluctuates from area to area. I also do think that R1b-Z2705 will show up in Gollobordė eventually, even if the area has a overall lower frequency. A Balkan Turk sample from North Macedonia, who has origin from Zabzun, has tested as Z2705+.

In my opinion it is very unlikely that this region was somehow unaffected by migrations, especially from those that are nearby such as Mati or Librazhd. We know that the region was heavily ravaged by wars, especially during the Albanian-Ottoman wars, this makes it all the more likely for migrations to have taken place - internally or externally. There are also these oral traditions that shouldn't automatically be dismissed. What recent language shifts do you think took place?

Those lines you mentioned, R1a-Y133383, presence of E-M132 and E-M123, which are more novel among Albanians. The TMRCA of the lines we already know diverges the lineages to at least 1200ybp from the Albanian counterparts, which is clear indication to me that there has been no recent migration into Golloborde. Aside from a minority of families, I think Golloborde has been an exporter of people into Albania and Macedonia. Pre-Communism as well as during Communism, Golloborde has had the highest population growth in all of Albania, and possibly the Balkans. This trend has been the norm for some time. This all indicates again that there has not been an inflow of people into Golloborde, but an outflow from Golloborde. It is clear to me.

I am sure every Y-DNA line will show up eventually. As Alban mentioned, the lack of Z2705 is also mirrored in Bulqize, Gryka Madhe and Gryka Vogel. It does mean that Z2705 has very low frequencies, regardless if the individual from Zabzun is Z2705+. The very low frequencies of Z2705 is indicative of the population not receiving recent migrations from interior Albania.

I wouldn't automatically dismiss them but I would view them with doubt because there is political will to change the narrative.

I believe that Borove, Okshtun and entire Okshtun basin was Orthodox as indicated by surnames, former Churches, and Turkish defters. Even Hiljmi Teodori's surnames for example is indicated of an Orthodox past. It is nearly impossible to have been Orthodox and not have been influenced by Bulgarian, Serbian or Greek in the language of the liturgy. Western Golloborde had to at least be bilingual pre Islamization.

Hawk
12-27-2020, 10:43 PM
I am quite interested in the spread of E-V13 -> Z5018 -> S2979 -> FGC33621 which Berisha-Sopi makes part of, we don't have any Albanian cousins post MBA/LBA. There is more variety of spread in Central/Western Europe, in Balkans: 2/3 Bulgarians, Greek Macedonians and a Macedonian within FGC33621->A101518.

I wonder which ancient group we belonged to.

Riverman
12-28-2020, 12:05 PM
I am quite interested in the spread of E-V13 -> Z5018 -> S2979 -> FGC33621 which Berisha-Sopi makes part of, we don't have any Albanian cousins post MBA/LBA. There is more variety of spread in Central/Western Europe, in Balkans: 2/3 Bulgarians, Greek Macedonians and a Macedonian within FGC33621->A101518.

I wonder which ancient group we belonged to.

We can't really know, but most likely more Romanians and Bulgarians will pop up in this clade and it will be found to be Daco-Thracian, unless something more surprising comes up. But the LBA-EIA dispersal of E-V13 seems to have been quite transgressive, transethnic imho, with first the Urnfield phenomenon and then the Iron working transition. That's why such clearly regional clades matter all the more, if they are restricted to a fairly smaller region. Others won't be that easy to pin down or root in just one clearly defined Iron Age ethnicity at all.

Hawk
12-28-2020, 12:26 PM
We can't really know, but most likely more Romanians and Bulgarians will pop up in this clade and it will be found to be Daco-Thracian, unless something more surprising comes up. But the LBA-EIA dispersal of E-V13 seems to have been quite transgressive, transethnic imho, with first the Urnfield phenomenon and then the Iron working transition. That's why such clearly regional clades matter all the more, if they are restricted to a fairly smaller region. Others won't be that easy to pin down or root in just one clearly defined Iron Age ethnicity at all.

Worth to note it (not that it should be taken serious), there was rumors among the elders that Berishas came from Odrysian city of Cabyle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabyle). Derite knows more about this.

But my problem is that Bulgarians/Macedonians/Romanians and the Greeks fall within FGC33621->A101518 and have no diversity, the diversity is greater in Central/Western Europe. So, as you said it was probably more trans-ethnic spread.

Riverman
12-28-2020, 12:55 PM
Worth to note it (not that it should be taken serious), there was rumors among the elders that Berishas came from Odrysian city of Cabyle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabyle). Derite knows more about this.

But my problem is that Bulgarians/Macedonians/Romanians and the Greeks fall within FGC33621->A101518 and have no diversity, the diversity is greater in Central/Western Europe. So, as you said it was probably more trans-ethnic spread.

For some of the E-V13 clades I already know they were running in circles, like first in the Balkans, then up to the Carpathians, through Central Europe, even Western Europe, then back again. This is actually not that uncommon, if you think about the fact that most R1a in Eastern Europe and Asia comes from a back migration too. Every time and many major cultures had their specific direction and in the case of E-V13 those changed numerous times, which makes everything even more complicated. You simply have a lot of candidates for many subclades, without having the actual carriers down to the subclade from ancient DNA. And even then some might have been already present in Celts, Dacians, Thracians and Greeks since the Early Iron Age.

Sorcelow
12-28-2020, 02:57 PM
Does anyone know anything about the "Burlesha" and "Plesha" families? The names appear in Ottoman defters of the Peloponnese and I am wondering if they are still present in modern day Albania.

Kelmendasi
12-28-2020, 03:32 PM
Does anyone know anything about the "Burlesha" and "Plesha" families? The names appear in Ottoman defters of the Peloponnese and I am wondering if they are still present in modern day Albania.
In regards to Plesha I believe that they could have come from the settlement of Plezhė which is located on the Zadrima Plain, to the south of Shkodra. There was also a certain Tomė Plezha from this region who was an Albanian soldier under Venetian service, even fighting in the Battle of Lepanto in 1571, where he was taken prisoner by the Ottomans. He was also one of the leaders chosen at the Convention of Mat in 1594.

levantino II
12-28-2020, 04:57 PM
Don't get me wrong, but i have different oppinion about origin of the name Plesha. I think it's an old slavic word for "bald". (Page 405 of Dictionary)


*plš f. i (c) ‘bald patch’
CS CS plYš!
W Cz. pleš; Pl. plesz
S Sln. pl¤š m.( jo); pl6ša f.( j#)
B Lith. plģkas adj. ‘bald’; pléikF (E. Lith.) f. ‘bald patch’; Latv. pliks adj. ‘bare,
bald’
Cogn. Nw. flein (dial.) m. ‘bald patch’
Forms such Ru. plexįn ‘bald person’ show that the root of this etymon is *plYx-.
According to Kortlandt (1994: 112), Slavic *x corresponding to Baltic *k points to
*h', cf. ' *soxą vs. Lith. šaką. We may therefore reconstruct *ploih'-o-.

https://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/Rechnici/SlavED.pdf

There is Croatian surname Pleša, but it's most probably of Slovenian origin, because "pleš" is still in use in Slovenia for bold person

https://actacroatica.com/hr/surname/Ple%C5%A1a/

Some say that Montenegrian tribe Pjašivci get surname from that word, most probably because they live on the mountain without forest (even it's not quite throuth)

DgidguBidgu
12-28-2020, 06:03 PM
Don't get me wrong, but i have different oppinion about origin of the name Plesha. I think it's an old slavic word for "bald". (Page 405 of Dictionary)



https://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/Rechnici/SlavED.pdf

There is Croatian surname Pleša, but it's most probably of Slovenian origin, because "pleš" is still in use in Slovenia for bold person

https://actacroatica.com/hr/surname/Ple%C5%A1a/

Some say that Montenegrian tribe Pjašivci get surname from that word, most probably because they live on the mountain without forest (even it's not quite throuth)


This word has and other meaning. It means playing ruchenica with the clapping of fingers, dancing ... but the etymology comes from the Slavic languages for sure.
Tom V Bulgarian etymological dictionary (p 348-349):
https://ibl.bas.bg/lib/ber_5/#page/176/mode/1up

Sorcelow
12-28-2020, 06:33 PM
In regards to Plesha I believe that they could have come from the settlement of Plezhė which is located on the Zadrima Plain, to the south of Shkodra. There was also a certain Tomė Plezha from this region who was an Albanian soldier under Venetian service, even fighting in the Battle of Lepanto in 1571, where he was taken prisoner by the Ottomans. He was also one of the leaders chosen at the Convention of Mat in 1594.

Thanks, what about the possibility that the family originated from the village of Plesat in southern Albania? The toponym "Plesia" exists in Greek Epirus and central Greece today.

Kelmendasi
12-28-2020, 06:57 PM
Don't get me wrong, but i have different oppinion about origin of the name Plesha. I think it's an old slavic word for "bald". (Page 405 of Dictionary)



https://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/Rechnici/SlavED.pdf

There is Croatian surname Pleša, but it's most probably of Slovenian origin, because "pleš" is still in use in Slovenia for bold person

https://actacroatica.com/hr/surname/Ple%C5%A1a/

Some say that Montenegrian tribe Pjašivci get surname from that word, most probably because they live on the mountain without forest (even it's not quite throuth)
In the case of Albanians, especially those with origin from the north of the country, I do think it's more likely that the name is derived from the toponym Plezhė/Plezha given that most trace their ancestry to this village or the general region of Zadrima. As I also mentioned, we know that there was a fis with this name during the 16th century that came from area and had members in service to the Republic of Venice, if I am not mistaken. However, the ultimate origin of the word could be from the Old Slavic or Proto-Slavic *рlěšь.

I can't say for certain if the Arvanites with this family name trace their origin from the village of Plezhė, or if it is rather more directly from Slavic and referred to one who's ancestor was bald. A number of Arvanites do have last names indicative of their place of origin, but many do also have last names indicating physical features. So who knows.

Kelmendasi
12-28-2020, 07:32 PM
In regards to the village of Plezhė, it is recorded in the Ottoman defter of Shkodra of 1485 under the name of Bleshja (Plezhja) and was a part of the Timar of the Kadi of Shkodra. It is recorded as having been inhabited for many years and at the time had 7 households in total with some sharing direct kinship ties, as is shown through the patronyms of a number of individuals recorded: 1) Domeniko Filipi, 2) Marini, son of Filip, 3) Gjoni, son of Filip, and 4) Gjini, son of Filip. Though others are also mentioned such as Andrija, son of Gjergji and Jovani, son of Margjini.

Exercitus
12-28-2020, 08:16 PM
https://i.imgur.com/rUOCGP6.jpg

Exercitus
12-28-2020, 08:36 PM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Korfu_-_38-40.jpg



also the other old Albanian village\Arvanitohori Burrlesha among others: Papadhate, Mataranga, Mesariste south of Agrinion lake

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Arta_-_39-39.jpg

like the villages Kalenxhi, Dara, Pangrati, Dramezi etc this are typical central Epirotic toponyms, so a considerable amount of Arvanites came from today Greek Epirus... Plesha its highly probable of slavic origin, about Burrlesha even Vasmer wasnt persuasive\convinced-. Μπουρελέσα ON, Kr. Joannina (Lex.). Wie oben bei Δομολεσσᾶ (s. S. 31) ein slav. *Do̢bolěsъ angenommen wurde, könnte hier ein *Borolěsъ als Grundlage gedient haben. Allerdings kann ich es nicht belegen. -
http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/mv/mv_3_1a.htm#224

Maybe has a Albanian etymology!!

Exercitus
12-28-2020, 09:06 PM
Also a interesant toponym near Dramezi and Plesha west Ioannina, there is a peculiar village Αλποχωρι-Alpohori (not Αλεποχωρι), all the villages in central-south Greece with that name were\are Albanian villages\Αρβανιτοχώρια...the precise combination of toponyms that shed a little more light concerning the homeland of the Albanian of Greece-Arvanites.

td120
12-28-2020, 11:07 PM
I can't say for certain if the Arvanites with this family name trace their origin from the village of Plezhė, or if it is rather more directly from Slavic and referred to one who's ancestor was bald. A number of Arvanites do have last names indicative of their place of origin, but many do also have last names indicating physical features. So who knows.

На юге, в верхней Ляберии (Labεria e sipermε), одна из горных вершин называется Плешевица (Plešεvica, 1738 м.; 5b): известняковая, безлесная, она производила впечатление плеши....

In the south, in Upper Laberia (Labεria e sipermε), one of the mountain peaks is called Pleševica (Plešεvica, 1738 m; 5b): limestone, treeless, it gave the impression of a bald head ...

As a parallel East Slavs use "Лыс; Лысая " for a peak of hill with no trees - "Лысая Гора" , "Лысая вершина" ( лысый, плешивый - bald headed).



„Плѣшью" у южных славян называлось место на возвышенности, свободное от леса, приспособленное для земледелия.

The southern Slavs called "pleshya" a place on a hill, free from forests, adapted for agriculture.

Afanasiy Selishtev , Slavic Population of Albania :

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/seli_sna/selish_4.html

Kelmendasi
12-28-2020, 11:54 PM
На юге, в верхней Ляберии (Labεria e sipermε), одна из горных вершин называется Плешевица (Plešεvica, 1738 м.; 5b): известняковая, безлесная, она производила впечатление плеши....

In the south, in Upper Laberia (Labεria e sipermε), one of the mountain peaks is called Pleševica (Plešεvica, 1738 m; 5b): limestone, treeless, it gave the impression of a bald head ...

As a parallel East Slavs use "Лыс; Лысая " for a peak of hill with no trees - "Лысая Гора" , "Лысая вершина" ( лысый, плешивый - bald headed).



„Плѣшью" у южных славян называлось место на возвышенности, свободное от леса, приспособленное для земледелия.

The southern Slavs called "pleshya" a place on a hill, free from forests, adapted for agriculture.

Afanasiy Selishtev , Slavic Population of Albania :

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/seli_sna/selish_4.html
Interesting, this makes it very unlikely that the Plesha family name among Arvanites is an indication of origin from the village of Plezhė in Zadrimė. It's more likely more local. Though both are derived from the same Slavic etymological root.

td120
12-29-2020, 12:31 AM
Yep, several places with this name...one of them being Pleshа in Epirus, Lakka Soliou(Selishtev mentions it too)...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakka_Souliou


Another in Korēė District, Starovo Kaza (50 houses, Albanians only) 1897,Bitola Vilayet stats:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Cqb-7wUPglIC&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%88%D0%B8%D1%88%D1%82%D0%B 0&source=bl&ots=emtChqw8bh&sig=ACfU3U3sPVVNuDEeDsZK3CPXdovpYXx5qA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjw_uCa9fHtAhUEHM0KHQv7B5sQ6AEwAXoECAMQA g#v=onepage&q=%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%88%D0%B8%D1%88%D1%82%D0%B0&f=false

Pleshevitsa, Florina Kaza , 110 Households, 599 Gheg Albanians (totally Albanian population).

http://periodica.fzf.ukim.edu.mk/godzb/GZ21(1969)/GZ21.06.%20%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0 %B2-%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%98%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D 0%B8,%20%D0%A5.%20-%20%D0%95%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%20%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BF%D 0%BE%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%82%20%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0% D1%82%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BA%D0%B8%20 %D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B4%20%D0%B 7%D0%B0%20%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0% BD%D0%B8%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE%20%D0%B2%D0%BE%20%D0%B1 %D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BE%D 1%82%20%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B5%D1%82%20%D0% BE%D0%B4%201897.pdf

etc.

Sorcelow
12-29-2020, 03:24 PM
Also a interesant toponym near Dramezi and Plesha west Ioannina, there is a peculiar village Αλποχωρι-Alpohori (not Αλεποχωρι), all the villages in central-south Greece with that name were\are Albanian villages\Αρβανιτοχώρια...the precise combination of toponyms that shed a little more light concerning the homeland of the Albanian of Greece-Arvanites.

Yes, I think many Arvanites came directly from Greek Epirus rather than from southern Albania. In particular, from the Lakka Souli region. It would be interesting to have y-dna samples from this region.

J Man
12-29-2020, 10:22 PM
Don't get me wrong, but i have different oppinion about origin of the name Plesha. I think it's an old slavic word for "bald". (Page 405 of Dictionary)



https://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/Rechnici/SlavED.pdf

There is Croatian surname Pleša, but it's most probably of Slovenian origin, because "pleš" is still in use in Slovenia for bold person

https://actacroatica.com/hr/surname/Ple%C5%A1a/

Some say that Montenegrian tribe Pjašivci get surname from that word, most probably because they live on the mountain without forest (even it's not quite throuth)

Yes Pješivci means "Bald Hills".

eastara
12-29-2020, 11:34 PM
Yes Pješivci means "Bald Hills".

Golo Brdo in Slavic also means "Bare Hill" or "Bald Hill"

J Man
12-30-2020, 12:22 AM
Golo Brdo in Slavic also means "Bare Hill" or "Bald Hill"

Well the name Pješivci is also Slavic although it is probably taken from the name "Spanji" which is what the pre-Slavic speaking population of that area was known as. The Spanji were called the "bald" or "inhabitants of the bald hills".

Kelmendasi
12-30-2020, 01:13 AM
Well the name Pješivci is also Slavic although it is probably taken from the name "Spanji" which is what the pre-Slavic speaking population of that area was known as. The Spanji were called the "bald" or "inhabitants of the bald hills".
To me it seems a lot more likely that Pješivci is derived directly from the Serbo-Croatian pleša or plješa in certain dialects, which in turn come from the Proto-Slavic plešь.

In regards to the Španji and Pješivci, it is likely that the latter name was just the Slavic translation for the region and its terrain. The etymology for the name of the Španji is still not exactly known, some have connected it to the Greek σπανός (spanós) which translates to "beardless" and could also be a reference to the terrain of the region. Others have connected them to the Albanian Spani fis who were spread across northern Albania and had multiple members ascend to nobility, such as the branch of Drivast or modern day Drisht.

trdbr1234
12-30-2020, 03:40 AM
Golo Brdo in Slavic also means "Bare Hill" or "Bald Hill"

Do you have any Bulgarian resources to share on Golloborde(Golo Brdo)? I'd be very interested in reading what ever you can find.

J Man
12-30-2020, 04:43 AM
To me it seems a lot more likely that Pješivci is derived directly from the Serbo-Croatian pleša or plješa in certain dialects, which in turn come from the Proto-Slavic plešь.

In regards to the Španji and Pješivci, it is likely that the latter name was just the Slavic translation for the region and its terrain. The etymology for the name of the Španji is still not exactly known, some have connected it to the Greek σπανός (spanós) which translates to "beardless" and could also be a reference to the terrain of the region. Others have connected them to the Albanian Spani fis who were spread across northern Albania and had multiple members ascend to nobility, such as the branch of Drivast or modern day Drisht.

I agree that Pješivci is the Slavic translation of Španji. I still think that most likely the term Španji relates to the pre-Slavic population of that area. They were the inhabitants of a hilly rather treeless (not completely) landscape. It is possible that the J2a-M92 that dominates the Pješivci tribe of today relates to this pre-Slavic population although the only way to truly know that is to have ancient Španji samples tested if there are any.

eastara
12-30-2020, 06:41 AM
Do you have any Bulgarian resources to share on Golloborde(Golo Brdo)? I'd be very interested in reading what ever you can find.

You can search in Bulgarian for "Голо Бърдо". The topic is a little sensitive as there is a dispute if the Slavic minority there(which was probably a majority in the past) should be considered Bulgarians or Macedonians.
https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE_%D0%B1%D1%8A%D1%80%D0%B4% D0%BE_(%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82)
http://promacedonia.com/mpr/alban.html

trdbr1234
12-30-2020, 10:55 PM
You can search in Bulgarian for "Голо Бърдо". The topic is a little sensitive as there is a dispute if the Slavic minority there(which was probably a majority in the past) should be considered Bulgarians or Macedonians.
https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE_%D0%B1%D1%8A%D1%80%D0%B4% D0%BE_(%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82)
http://promacedonia.com/mpr/alban.html

Interesting read. It mostly dealt with Drenovo and Boboshtitsa in Korca. I have actually met people from these villages before when I was in Korca and I thought they were darker than usual. I actually assumed they were Roma but they weren't. Another oddity was that they had -ovo and ova ending surnames. They identified as Albanian, afaik. I never been at the villages myself so I don't know if my situation was a random occurrence.

The reading often quoted, Matveevich Selishchev "The Slavic population in Albania". I tried googling this book but nothing came up.


Some interesting parts:

The area around Dolna Mati at its confluence with Fani is called Bulgeri. In the diocese of Drach in the seventeenth century. has found the village of Bulgari with the church "St. Georgi ", in the area of ​​Lesh on the Mati River and around Kurbin in the 17th century Bulgarian rebels against the Turks are mentioned".


The Albanians who conquered the valleys, together with the rest of the population, formed military municipalities without severing ties with their compatriots in the mountains. The new municipalities were tightly united and armed independent groups. They sometimes concluded treaties with the neighboring Italian republics, and especially with Venice. In some cases, some Albanian military communities joined forces for joint action against the local Slavic population and their Italian neighbors.

All this led to gradual changes in the ethnic appearance of Polish settlements west of the Macedonian-Albanian-speaking border, which became increasingly Albanianized by painting a colorful linguistic picture. Some settlements were purely Albanian, while others remained Bulgarian. The population of some Albanian settlements was formed of only one genus. In the midst of his elders stood out the village chiefs, whose surnames began to bear the villages themselves, often called before by Bulgarian or other Slavic names such as Lugi, Graditsa, Stoyki, Kamenitza, Sochovina and others.



Edit. Found Matveevich Selishchev "The Slavic population in Albania"

http://www.kroraina.com/seli_sna/selish_1.html

td120
12-30-2020, 11:08 PM
Do you have any Bulgarian resources to share on Golloborde (Golo Brdo)? I'd be very interested in reading what ever you can find.

http://www.ongal.net/editions2/GOLO_BARDO1_2009_INNER_BOOK.pdf
Традиции, музика, идентичност - Част 1

..........

http://www.omda.bg/uploaded_files/files/articles/Golo_bardo_2_text_web2__1395571942.pdf
Език, обредност, музика - Част 2

Selishtev's Славянское население в Албании with the more modern Russian orthography (easier to grasp or run thru Google translate)

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/seli_sna/index.html

Kelmendasi
12-31-2020, 08:52 PM
http://www.ongal.net/editions2/GOLO_BARDO1_2009_INNER_BOOK.pdf
Традиции, музика, идентичност - Част 1

..........

http://www.omda.bg/uploaded_files/files/articles/Golo_bardo_2_text_web2__1395571942.pdf
Език, обредност, музика - Част 2

Selishtev's Славянское население в Албании with the more modern Russian orthography (easier to grasp or run thru Google translate)

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/seli_sna/index.html
Thanks for the links, some interesting maps from Selishtev's book:

Non-Slavic toponyms:

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/seli_sna/selish_nonslavic.gif

Slavic toponyms:

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/seli_sna/selish_slavic.gif

Kelmendasi
12-31-2020, 10:55 PM
The area around Dolna Mati at its confluence with Fani is called Bulgeri. In the diocese of Drach in the seventeenth century. has found the village of Bulgari with the church "St. Georgi ", in the area of ​​Lesh on the Mati River and around Kurbin in the 17th century Bulgarian rebels against the Turks are mentioned".
I believe this is referring to the bajrak of Bulgri or Bulgėri which was a tribe belonging to Malėsia e Lezhės (Highlands of Lezha), which could be considered a kind of sub-region of Mirdita, and was located in this exact location. The main villages belonging to this region or former bajrak are: Berzane, Fang, Fierzė (not to be confused with the one in Pukė), Rrasfik and Bulgėr (Katundi i Vjetėr). I am not certain on the etymology of the name of this tribe, it might be connected to the Bulgarians, however bulgėr/bujgėr (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bujg%C3%ABr) is also a name for a sub-species of oak, Quercus trojana or Macedonian oak in specific which is spread primarily across the southern Balkans (most of Albania, western North Macedonia, parts of Greece and Kosovo., etc.). I think it's more likely that the toponym is related to this.

As for the revolt, I'll try look into this as it's pretty interesting. Could just be referring to the inhabitants of Bulgėri in a collective name however rather than ethnic Bulgarians since the area described matches the region of Bulgėr exactly. I am also not aware of any Bulgarian-speakers in this region during the 17th century.

Korabi
01-01-2021, 02:04 AM
Interesting, in order to verify this I think we would have to look at records referencing the populations sizes of the region from the 15th century all the way into the 17th or 18th. We do have the Ottoman defter of Dibra of 1467 which does give some insight as to the number of households in each villages. Okshtun itself only had 7 households in 1467, which is rather small compared to the other villages nearby. The largest villages seem to have been Trebisht with 30 households, and Borova with 27 households.

I was also wondering if you know what Sadikaj says in regards to Borova?

Couldn't find specifics unless I'm blind. I sent you an invite to view the book in PDF form. I took a picture of each page and compiled it into a PDF.

Kelmendasi
01-01-2021, 02:34 AM
Couldn't find specifics unless I'm blind. I sent you an invite to view the book in PDF form. I took a picture of each page and compiled it into a PDF.
Thanks I'll give it a look. Sadikaj was referenced by Novik in his section on Borova and the places of origin for the families from that village, so I think the village is mentioned, but maybe not in depth.

Korabi
01-01-2021, 03:25 AM
Thanks I'll give it a look. Sadikaj was referenced by Novik in his section on Borova and the places of origin for the families from that village, so I think the village is mentioned, but maybe not in depth.

Yea. Its definitely mentioned but I noticed there was no dedicated section to Borove and its fis/fshats. Trebisht is the most mentioned. Theres a wealth of knowledge there. Mentions families with the same surnames having separate origins etc.

I just breezed but there's good information there. Probably a lot I glossed over.

Kelmendasi
01-01-2021, 03:48 AM
Yea. Its definitely mentioned but I noticed there was no dedicated section to Borove and its fis/fshats. Trebisht is the most mentioned. Theres a wealth of knowledge there. Mentions families with the same surnames having separate origins etc.

I just breezed but there's good information there. Probably a lot I glossed over.
I just gave it a look and there is in fact a small section in the book dedicated to the history of the families or fise in Borovė. It is stated that according to the oral traditions that were gathered, the Ceta are considered to be among the oldest and had 10 households located primarily in the centre of the village. The rest of the families are considered to have come from various nearby regions. Majority seem to claim origin from the villages of Mati such as Macukull and Guri i Bardhė, whilst a few others are said to have come from the village of Neshta in Librazhd and the highlands of Ēermenika. The origin for some families, such as the Hysa, Hasa, Golli, etc., was unknown.

In regards to the Ceta, my maternal grandmother belongs to this fis. I have been told that they were originally Christians, with them mainly having been referred to as Catholics when I asked, and that they owned a lot of land in the village. Their wealth in land was so great that my grandfather was given land by them to build his house after marrying my grandmother.

Korabi
01-01-2021, 04:26 AM
I just gave it a look and there is in fact a small section in the book dedicated to the history of the families or fise in Borovė. It is stated that according to the oral traditions that were gathered, the Ceta are considered to be among the oldest and had 10 households located primarily in the centre of the village. The rest of the families are considered to have come from various nearby regions. Majority seem to claim origin from the villages of Mati such as Macukull and Guri i Bardhė, whilst a few others are said to have come from the village of Neshta in Librazhd and the highlands of Ēermenika. The origin for some families, such as the Hysa, Hasa, Golli, etc., was unknown.

In regards to the Ceta, my maternal grandmother belongs to this fis. I have been told that they were originally Christians, with them mainly having been referred to as Catholics when I asked, and that they owned a lot of land in the village. Their wealth in land was so great that my grandfather was given land by them to build his house after marrying my grandmother.

Very cool. Did I happen to catch the page number in the scan? The Catholic bit may hold weight. Sadikaj mentions the original inhabitants of Western Golloborde were mostly Catholic and a good majority in some parts left by 1600.

In some parts, areas were completely abandoned after Skenderbrgs death and due to blood feuds(Okshtun/Oreshnje/Prodan/Plepa), with most of the brotherhoods arriving between 1600-1700 from the Mat/Diber/Mirdita border regions. The original Catholic inhabitants fled "toward the sea"(Durres?) And a second wave went east after blood feuds with Martanesh. It doesn't specify where all the families that arrived there came from. Only a handful were mentioned to originate from the aforementioned border region, with the original inhabitants having all left. At this point the new arrivals were mainly Orthodox and Muslim from 1650 onward.

Hawk
01-01-2021, 06:44 PM
Because i see people wondering, for the sake of argument Albanians in Macedonia according to peer reviewed papers carry around ~30-35% of E-V13 not 10-15%. Macedonians carry a lot E-V13 as well ranging from 20-25%, slightly less than I2a.



A total of 314 individuals representing the three major ethno-linguistic groups (ethnic Macedonians, Albanians and Turks) in the Republic of North Macedonia were analyzed for Y-SNPs and Y-STRs using minisequencing and fragment analysis. The haplogroup composition differed remarkably between the three groups with dominance of haplogroup I2 in ethnic Macedonians (28.1%), E1b in Albanians (35.3%) and J2a (34.9%) in Turks, respectively. The haplotype analysis using the YFilerPlus kit disclosed a significant reduction in diversity values (DC, GD) for the Turkish subgroup compared to the Macedonian and Albanian speaking populations. The Y-STR based population analysis revealed a similarity of ethnic Macedonians with neighboring Serbians and Bulgarians. The same holds true for the Albanian speakers from Macedonia and Albania, whereas the Turkish minority in North Macedonia stands apart from the population in Turkey.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497319301097

Kelmendasi
01-02-2021, 02:16 AM
Very cool. Did I happen to catch the page number in the scan? The Catholic bit may hold weight. Sadikaj mentions the original inhabitants of Western Golloborde were mostly Catholic and a good majority in some parts left by 1600.

In some parts, areas were completely abandoned after Skenderbrgs death and due to blood feuds(Okshtun/Oreshnje/Prodan/Plepa), with most of the brotherhoods arriving between 1600-1700 from the Mat/Diber/Mirdita border regions. The original Catholic inhabitants fled "toward the sea"(Durres?) And a second wave went east after blood feuds with Martanesh. It doesn't specify where all the families that arrived there came from. Only a handful were mentioned to originate from the aforementioned border region, with the original inhabitants having all left. At this point the new arrivals were mainly Orthodox and Muslim from 1650 onward.
Yes, it is discussed on page 124.

parapolitikos
01-02-2021, 06:59 PM
The claim that Gheg Albanians were not originally Albanian-speaking when they predominantly belong to local Paleo-Balkan clusters that fit with the formation of the Albanian ethnos is beyond absurd, let alone the fact that the Gheg dialects are the ones that have preserved the most archaic features of Proto-Albanian (e.g. nasal vowels and no rhotacism).

Please, if you're going to post such absurdities, do so on Eupedia.

Part one:

Gheg dialects having or not archaic elements doesn't add any credence to your theory. Why would it?
Think about it logically.
a) Durres and the coastal northern Albania have been majors hubs of the Byzantine Empire. Both culturally , administrative, Religiously and militarily.It was one of the more important cities of the medieval Byzantine empire.
By the end of the Byzantine empire North Albania had been under Hellenistic, greekoroman and Byzantine rule for 2000 yeas.Same was true about Scutari.
How in the world could tribes roaming in an area few dozens of km away NOT come in contact with the dominant culture of the entire Balkan peninsula?

b)-What was the religion of Medieval Albania?
Greek orthodoxy.
-What was the liturgical language of The Albanian churches?
Albanian? No. Latin? no. It was Greek. But Gheg accents dont have Greek word loans. Arberesh though are full of liturgical and common speaking greek loan words.
In fact even today several italo-albanian catholic churches liturgy is in Greek. In fact the Papal Greek college was formed originally to provide education for the clergy of the Arbereshe. Now if Arbereshe came mainly from northern Albania, and Gheghs are in Northern Albania, how in the world the two completely different linguistic evolution be compatible taken in mind their geographic proximity.

c)Now moving to Gheg dialects. What are their attributes?
-Fairly close to each other, which alludes to modern divergence.
-Poor vocabulary; which could allude to many things. One of them Rural origins, adopted by a population as a second language and it gradually displaced the original language, as it happened to Adriatic paleobalcanians in respects to serbocroatian, or Maltese in respect to Arabic, or the Birth of Romance language from Celtic vulgar latin speakers. Romanian has a lot of Latin archaisms too, but most certainly wasn't the language of Dacians.
-Archaisms, which allude to isolation until recent times. Durres and Scutari were cosmopolitan trade posts for centuries, but few km inland Ghegs were left unaffected by that cultural cosmogony?
-absent of sea and sea trade related terms which alludes to mountainous origins.

All of the above scream out of the region origins of Ghegs.

parapolitikos
01-02-2021, 07:33 PM
The claim that Gheg Albanians were not originally Albanian-speaking when they predominantly belong to local Paleo-Balkan clusters that fit with the formation of the Albanian ethnos is beyond absurd, let alone the fact that the Gheg dialects are the ones that have preserved the most archaic features of Proto-Albanian (e.g. nasal vowels and no rhotacism).

Please, if you're going to post such absurdities, do so on Eupedia.

Part two

My guess is that the original core gheg community was just few dozens of pastoral nomadic families that immigrated to the remote Montenegrin alps from further north. There they were left alone for 600-700 years until they grew so much in numbers that they spilled into Albania,now severely depopulated(probably during or near the ottoman conquest of the Balkans) maintaining the clan and pastoral lifestyle.Being herders and surrounded by aliens to them they maintain also a paramilitary style structure.It's not even a far fetched scenario as something similar obviously occurred everywhere in Albania.

-Did Vlach migration to modern Albanian occurred? Of course it did.
-When did it occurred? After the slavic invasions.
-What happened to the numerous vlach speaking communities? They gradually lost their language and adopted the language of the nearby locals.

42241

Look at these maps which i ve made based on data from the AlbanianY dna project.

Look carefully.
Every Albanian sub-region has a different , dominant, clade of Ev13 thousands of years apart.
How in the world would that even possible, when across Albania z2705 and ph1751 haplogroups spread with a TRMCA of a thousand years?
The only wpossible explanation is that the carriers of the z2705 and ph1751 came clean with out any major haplogroups, invaded Albania, and dispersed from their entry point to the 4 corners of modern Albanian speaking areas very quickly. There they mixed with the local population of the respected areas. The mixing occurred AFTER the gheg expansion.
The same is true about the other haplogroups.
Different clades of J1,I1,j2a,(nonz2705)R1b etc found in north and South Albania.
Almost everything is different but z2705 and ph1751, the dominant haplogroups in gheghs, which haplogroups are too young to have been present in Albania for more than 1000 years.
Not only that, but they are thousands of years appart from OTHER J2b and R1b clades found in (mainly south) Albania.
All that with in a 100 km radious. How can that be possible?
How can it be possible that a population that had(when it originally arrived):
-No J2a(absent in north albania)
-No Ev13 (different clades in every sub-region)
-No J1(different clades in every sub-region)
..be native?!

Hawk
01-02-2021, 07:45 PM
The dominant haplogroups in Ghegs is E-V13 btw. This is confirmed by multiple papers we have seen.

No need for such dramatization. You have no credibility. R1b-Z2705 was raised in percentage after the Justinian Plague and Slavic invasions, the same way as my FGC33625 subclade did.

Hawk
01-02-2021, 08:31 PM
Marija Gimbutas opinion on Illyrian Culture. Apparently she thought it started during Late Bronze Age

https://i.imgur.com/apaSNse.png

Kelmendasi
01-02-2021, 08:41 PM
Parapolitikos, your claims and logic here are so outlandish and frankly incoherent that it's actually rather hard to tackle them one by one, it's also clear that there is some kind of nationalistic agenda here that is not suited for this forum, but I shall try and deconstruct your arguments regardless.

Firstly in regards to the linguistics which you clearly are not familiar with. What you need to realise is that both the Geg and Tosk dialects of Albanian split from a single common linguistic ancestor, Proto-Albanian. Judging by the fact that Latin and Greek loanwords are treated as native words in both dialect groups, whilst Slavic and Turkish are not, it is clear without a doubt that this split occurred prior to the Slavic migrations of the 6th and 7th centuries CE and probably right after the Christianization of the region since Tosk rhotacism is present in Christian Latin terms. This within itself should make it crystal clear that Geg and Tosk Albanians can not somehow come from two distinct population groups. As for your claim that there is a lack of Greek loanwords in Geg Albanian, this is simply false. There are a few words borrowed directly from Ancient Greek in Geg Albanian, for example lakėn (cabbage) from Ancient Greek λάχανον (lįkhanon), this in Tosk became lakėr due to rhotacism. The Tosk Albanian dialects themselves are not rich in Greek loanwords anyways so this isn't even a strong argument. There are also rather distinct differences between many of the Geg dialects, which is why they have been broken down into four sub-dialects: Northwestern Geg, Northeastern Geg, Central Geg, and Southern Geg.

As for the religious background of Medieval Albania, it is not as simple as you make it seem. From the first century CE up until the 8th century (roughly 732 CE) the churches of Albania were under the jurisdiction of the Pope in Rome, it was only under the rule of Leo III the Isaurian and the beginning of the Iconoclastic Controversy that the churches were transferred to the Patriarch of Constantinople as a result of Leo III being angered by the support that the Albanian archbishops, in particularly that of Durrės, showed Rome during the Controversy. However, upon the Great Schism of 1054, most of the churches north of the Shkumbin reverted back to Roman jurisdiction whilst those to the south maintained ties with Constantinople and the Orthodox faith. The temporary collapse of the Byzantine Empire during the Fourth Crusade of 1204 and the establishment of Roman Catholic power bases such as that of the Angevins would further weaken the Orthodox position in major Albanian cities, in 1208 a Catholic archdeacon was elected for the archbishopric of Durrės and many new Catholic dioceses were established. Even linguistically, the Christian vocabulary in Albanian is primarily made up of Latin and Western Romance loanwords as opposed to Greek ones which are rather limited, supporting the thesis that the Albanians or Proto-Albanians were Christianized under Roman Catholic influence. This is then supported by how a Bulgarian document dating back to the 11th century CE describes the Albanians (Arbanasi) as "half-believers" or Christians that did not belong to the Orthodox faith or were not Chalcedonian Christian. The Roman Catholic nature of Medieval North Albania is then supported by various documents of the period that were compiled by pilgrims, missionaries, clergymen., etc.

As for the Arbėreshė it is a known fact that the majority came from Tosk Albanian regions, and even from the Albanian community of Greece. Sure a number of families also did come from the north of the country, but they certainly were not the majority. Many Albanians from the north escaped Albania and other Albania-speaking regions after the Ottoman occupation through Venice, rather than Naples.

When it comes to the genetic side of things you completely disregard events and factors such as population bottlenecks, which were bound to have occurred in the Early Medieval Balkans due to events such as Justinian's Plague as Hawk mentioned. It is very clear that there was an Albanian bottleneck during this time frame. I also do not see how different clusters of E-V13 would mean that the population is not native, very weird logic there. J2a by the way is present in North Albania, even in the most northern ethnographic regions such as Malėsia e Madhe, but even if it was lacking this too I do not see how it would prove that Geg Albanians are not native.

Anyways, when do you propose this foreign Geg migration occurred?

Johnny ola
01-02-2021, 08:42 PM
The dominant haplogroups in Ghegs is E-V13 btw. This is confirmed by multiple papers we have seen.

No need for such dramatization. You have no credibility. R1b-Z2705 was raised in percentage after the Justinian Plague and Slavic invasions, the same way as my FGC33625 subclade did.

R1b-Z2705 is associated with the slavic expansion?

Johane Derite
01-02-2021, 09:14 PM
c)Now moving to Gheg dialects. What are their attributes?
-Fairly close to each other, which alludes to modern divergence.
-Poor vocabulary; which could allude to many things. One of them Rural origins, adopted by a population as a second language and it gradually displaced the original language, as it happened to Adriatic paleobalcanians in respects to serbocroatian, or Maltese in respect to Arabic, or the Birth of Romance language from Celtic vulgar latin speakers. Romanian has a lot of Latin archaisms too, but most certainly wasn't the language of Dacians.
-Archaisms, which allude to isolation until recent times. Durres and Scutari were cosmopolitan trade posts for centuries, but few km inland Ghegs were left unaffected by that cultural cosmogony?
-absent of sea and sea trade related terms which alludes to mountainous origins.

All of the above scream out of the region origins of Ghegs.

Northwest gheg and northeast gheg are way diverged. You don't even speak Albanian, nor do you have any working knowledge or study of Albanian. Literally every bullet point is innacurate, and I suspect on purpose.

Johane Derite
01-02-2021, 09:18 PM
Part two

My guess is that the original core gheg community was just few dozens of pastoral nomadic families that immigrated to the remote Montenegrin alps from further north. There they were left alone for 600-700 years until they grew so much in numbers that they spilled into Albania,now severely depopulated(probably during or near the ottoman conquest of the Balkans) maintaining the clan and pastoral lifestyle.Being herders and surrounded by aliens to them they maintain also a paramilitary style structure.It's not even a far fetched scenario as something similar obviously occurred everywhere in Albania.

-Did Vlach migration to modern Albanian occurred? Of course it did.
-When did it occurred? After the slavic invasions.
-What happened to the numerous vlach speaking communities? They gradually lost their language and adopted the language of the nearby locals.

42241

Look at these maps which i ve made based on data from the AlbanianY dna project.

Look carefully.
Every Albanian sub-region has a different , dominant, clade of Ev13 thousands of years apart.
How in the world would that even possible, when across Albania z2705 and ph1751 haplogroups spread with a TRMCA of a thousand years?
The only wpossible explanation is that the carriers of the z2705 and ph1751 came clean with out any major haplogroups, invaded Albania, and dispersed from their entry point to the 4 corners of modern Albanian speaking areas very quickly. There they mixed with the local population of the respected areas. The mixing occurred AFTER the gheg expansion.
The same is true about the other haplogroups.
Different clades of J1,I1,j2a,(nonz2705)R1b etc found in north and South Albania.
Almost everything is different but z2705 and ph1751, the dominant haplogroups in gheghs, which haplogroups are too young to have been present in Albania for more than 1000 years.
Not only that, but they are thousands of years appart from OTHER J2b and R1b clades found in (mainly south) Albania.
All that with in a 100 km radious. How can that be possible?
How can it be possible that a population that had(when it originally arrived):
-No J2a(absent in north albania)
-No Ev13 (different clades in every sub-region)
-No J1(different clades in every sub-region)
..be native?!

Literally every bullet point here is not true. Total bad faith troll.

XXD
01-02-2021, 09:19 PM
He is definitely a troll...

Hawk
01-02-2021, 09:27 PM
R1b-Z2705 is associated with the slavic expansion?

No, definitely no. My point is that it expanded after Justinian Plague/Slavic invasion, some centuries after, when Albanians started to recuperate, so its definitely Albanian. I am not sure how common R1b-Z2103 was during/after Late Bronze Age, before that it was very likely the most common Balkan male lineage.

Kelmendasi
01-03-2021, 02:12 AM
Was looking at the Bosnian Y-DNA project and it seems that a few samples from Albania have tested through them, seems like they are targeting families from the bilingual or Slavic-speaking communities such as Golloborda, Gora and the Bosniak minority of Shijak near Durrės. https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1OsAy-5BiJzGcHTEtF-00FYJsjwM&ll=41.35308016469356%2C19.617736699670566&z=13.

From Gollobordė or eastern Dibra:

1) Trebisht - E-V13
2) Gjoricė e Sipėrme - E-V13
3) Strikēan - E-V13
4) Zerqan - E-V13
5) Tėrnovė e Madhė - E-V13
6) Steblevė - E-FGC77167
7) Klenjė - I2a-P37

There is an anonymous sample belonging to the Bosniak community of Shijak that is R1a-M417, as well as a sample from Tirana that is I2a-S17250 and with further origin from Mostar in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I also see that a sample from near Zall-Bastar in the highlands of Tirana has tested as E-V13, though as far as I know there is no Slavic-speaking or bilingual community in this area. There are also three samples from near Kukės: I2a-Z99 from Zapod, I2c-Y16419 from Shishtavec, E-Y9472 from Turaj and a I2a-Y3120 from Topojan. These samples are from the Gorani community. And then there is a single R1a-Y33 sample from Shkodra that has further origin from around Golubovci in the Zeta Lowlands of Montenegro.

In regards to Gjorica (Gjoricė e Sipėrme and Gjoricė e Poshtme), linguists Klaus Steinke and Xhelal Ylli in their Die Slavischen Minderheiten in Albanien (SMA). 2. Teil: Golloborda-Herbel-Kėrēishti I Epėrm, noted that during their expeditions to the villages in the 2000s there was no Slavic-speaking population present. Even Vasil Kanchov in 1900 recorded the village as having been inhabited by Albanians.

parapolitikos
01-03-2021, 06:42 AM
The dominant haplogroups in Ghegs is E-V13 btw. This is confirmed by multiple papers we have seen.

No need for such dramatization. You have no credibility. R1b-Z2705 was raised in percentage after the Justinian Plague and Slavic invasions, the same way as my FGC33625 subclade did.

The dominant haplogroup in Ghegs ..NOW. That's the key word. A more important word though is Different. Ev13 is of different clade in Every region. Each region has a dominant clade that reflects 80% to 90 % of the Ev13 of each region. Different! And thousands of years apart each.Understand its implications.Different in North Albanian! Different in Kosovo! Different in the border region! Different in south Albanian! And if we go back 200 years before Albanian refugeesmoved all over the place, then the division must have been more extreme.
42255

As for z2705 , i dont think what you are suggesting is very probable. I doubt that is even mathematically possible.
Taking in mind that the TMCRA of Albanian z2705 is less than 1500 years old,if we believe the Albanian Genetic project own charts, that takes us back to the same period the plague occurred.

42254
There couldnt be more than a handful of males with the z2705 line. Since z2705 today is about 15% ydna lines, then we have to assume that the total male population of Albania at the time was about 100 men. That's your premise that the plague elevated the (newly arrived out of nowhere) Z2705 to new levels and thereafter it remained as high. I find that hard to believe.


But the problems obviously dont stop there. The main problem is the disperse of z2705. A newly evolved linage (of the 6th century)would have had a very restricted spread. Probably at the level of a village. TMRCA 1500 years . That is a problem on itself. The problem how it spread from a spot on the map to all over Albanian inhabited lands. Show me a historical event that could explain it. But even that's it's the lesser problem. I ve already pointed out the biggest concern but you didnt appreciate its importance. The problem is the disperse of z2705 lineages without the disperse of any other haplogroups(other than ph1751 which seems to follow similar spread and have a similar age and TMCRA). It means that the dispersing population had almost exclusively z2705 and ph1751 male lineages. How would that even be possible in the lower Balkans? And the problems dont stop there either.
The linage of z2705/by33884 clades that spread all over Albania are a lot younger so they should have spread centuries after the Justinian plague. The gheg Clans Y-DNA divergence occurred mostly in the last 1000 years.
All of these make your theory highly unlikely.

parapolitikos
01-03-2021, 07:45 AM
Northwest gheg and northeast gheg are way diverged. You don't even speak Albanian, nor do you have any working knowledge or study of Albanian. Literally every bullet point is innacurate, and I suspect on purpose.

So you claim the exact opposite of what Kelmendasi claims just above.But I agree with you.
Gheg divergence cant be explained by it's current geographic proximity to Tosk and Arbereshe. The gheg mutual intelligibility with Arberesh is low understandably as Arbereshe is archaic and has lot of Latin and Greek vocabulary and morphology. Although Arbereshe was spoken literally 10 km away on the coast from the Gheg clans. How is that possible?
How is that possible for Ghegs to avoid all the linguistic and cultural influenced that shaped arbereshe if they occupied the same space during the periods that those influence occured?
As for the proximity of Gheg dialects between them, i follow standard academic opinion that ghegs dialects have a high degree of mutual intelligibility, although i have read plenty of comments on language threads that some accents are challenging to the accent on the opposite end of the geographic spectrum of accents. Either way that is not really related or affects the main point i was making.

Hawk
01-03-2021, 10:04 AM
The dominant haplogroup in Ghegs ..NOW. That's the key word. A more important word though is Different. Ev13 is of different clade in Every region. Each region has a dominant clade that reflects 80% to 90 % of the Ev13 of each region. Different! And thousands of years apart each.Understand its implications.Different in North Albanian! Different in Kosovo! Different in the border region! Different in south Albanian! And if we go back 200 years before Albanian refugeesmoved all over the place, then the division must have been more extreme.
42255

As for z2705 , i dont think what you are suggesting is very probable. I doubt that is even mathematically possible.
Taking in mind that the TMCRA of Albanian z2705 is less than 1500 years old,if we believe the Albanian Genetic project own charts, that takes us back to the same period the plague occurred.

42254
There couldnt be more than a handful of males with the z2705 line. Since z2705 today is about 15% ydna lines, then we have to assume that the total male population of Albania at the time was about 100 men. That's your premise that the plague elevated the (newly created) Z2705 to new levels and thereafter it remained as high. I find that hard to beleive.

But the problems obviously dont stop there. The main problem is the disperse of z2705. A newly evolved linage (of the 6th century)would have had a very restricted spread. Probably at the level of a village. That is a problem on itself. The problem of spreading from a spot on the map to all over Albanian inhabited lands. How? Show me a historical event that could explain it. But even that's it's the lesser concern. I ve already pointed out of this but you didnt appreciate its importance. The disperse of z2705 without the disperse of other haplogroups(other than ph1751 which seems to follow similar spread and have a similar age and TMCRA) it's a giant problem. It means that the dispersing population had almost exclusively z2705 and ph1751 male lineages. How would that even be possible in the lower Balkans. And the problems dont stop there either.
The linage of z2705/by33884 clades that spread all over Albania are a lot younger so it should have spread centuries after the Justinian plague. The gheg Clans divergence occurred mostly in the last 1000 years.
All of these make your theory highly unlikely.

All of those subclades you visualized are subclades within E-V13 => Z5018 => S2979 which coincide with a Late Bronze Age entrance and expansion. I want to see more data/aDNA in order to make sense of everything.

You are just giving an explanation out of thin air.

Johane Derite
01-03-2021, 11:33 AM
So you claim the exact opposite of what Kelmendasi claims just above.But I agree with you.
Gheg divergence cant be explained by it's current geographic proximity to Tosk and Arbereshe. The gheg mutual intelligibility with Arberesh is low understandably as Arbereshe is archaic and has lot of Latin and Greek vocabulary and morphology. Although Arbereshe was spoken literally 10 km away on the coast from the Gheg clans. How is that possible?
How is that possible for Ghegs to avoid all the linguistic and cultural influenced that shaped arbereshe if they occupied the same space during the periods that those influence occured?
As for the proximity of Gheg dialects between them, i follow standard academic opinion that ghegs dialects have a high degree of mutual intelligibility, although i have read plenty of comments on language threads that some accents are challenging to the accent on the opposite end of the geographic spectrum of accents. Either way that is not really related or affects the main point i was making.

Literally everything you say is just wrong and made up, I honestly don't know why you are starting to make ridiculous theories without having any competence in Albanian or any actual knowledge of this language and the dialects. Totally fraudulent charade.

Even this ridiculous claim of yours about 10kms from gheg clans, is so beyond innacurate and wrong that it is mind boggingly infuriating.

Durres was gheg speaking, as the baptism formula written by skanderbegs counsellor Pal Engjelli plainly and simply demonstrates.

You have no actual knowledge of the arberesh dialects or history, likewise with gheg dialects.

https://peizazhe.com/2020/08/08/arbereshet-ceshtje-te-hapura/

Johane Derite
01-03-2021, 11:46 AM
The latest dialectological work by an actual academic linguist, and not some random that doesn't even speak albanian or know basic facts:

https://www.botimpex.com/media/foto/books/thumb/750f55af5705c8b6a81fd96d0b89f725.jpg

Kelmendasi
01-03-2021, 02:46 PM
So you claim the exact opposite of what Kelmendasi claims just above.But I agree with you.
Gheg divergence cant be explained by it's current geographic proximity to Tosk and Arbereshe. The gheg mutual intelligibility with Arberesh is low understandably as Arbereshe is archaic and has lot of Latin and Greek vocabulary and morphology. Although Arbereshe was spoken literally 10 km away on the coast from the Gheg clans. How is that possible?
How is that possible for Ghegs to avoid all the linguistic and cultural influenced that shaped arbereshe if they occupied the same space during the periods that those influence occured?
As for the proximity of Gheg dialects between them, i follow standard academic opinion that ghegs dialects have a high degree of mutual intelligibility, although i have read plenty of comments on language threads that some accents are challenging to the accent on the opposite end of the geographic spectrum of accents. Either way that is not really related or affects the main point i was making.
How did I claim the "exact opposite"? I clearly stated that there are distinct differences between regional Geg dialects and that they must be broken down into sub-dialects, this suggests divergence. This does in fact affect the point you were making as it would contradict the point you were making that the divergence happened in modern day times.

Believe it or not, Geg Albanians can in fact understand the Arbėreshė dialect very well, and so can Tosk Albanians. In fact a number of the archaic words that were changed in later Tosk dialects were maintained in Geg, for example krye/kry (head) which is more common in Geg dialects and krie in Arbėreshė. Tosk dialects mainly use kokė. Of course I wouldn't expect you to understand this since you do not speak Albanian, nor do you have much of a linguistic understanding of it.

And again you're maintaining the unsubstantiated claim that the bulk of Arbėreshė settlers came from North Albania. Goes to show that you're just here to troll.

Kelmendasi
01-03-2021, 03:11 PM
Durres was gheg speaking, as the baptism formula written by skanderbegs counsellor Pal Engjelli plainly and simply demonstrates
Another document that makes it crystal clear that the Albanian spoken in Medieval Durrės belonged to a Geg dialect is Arnold Ritter von Harff's lexicon (http://www.elsie.de/pdf/articles/A1984LexiconHarff.pdf) which dates back to 1496-7 and most importantly compiled words spoken by the common folk. The local dialect had a lack of rhotacism, as is shown through the word vene (wine) which should be verė in Tosk.

In modern day times the local dialect of Albanian spoken in the city of Durrės has been classified as a sub-dialect of Southern Geg, though it apparently has some differences from the other Southern Geg dialects. In this dialect there is a reduction in the consonant /dh/ and it often becomes /ll/, for example livadh>livall. This is also seen in a number of Northwestern Geg dialects, where a word such as madh (big) is often heard as mall. There is also the following change where pl, bl, and fl become pj, bj, and fj. So for example, plesht>pjesht.

From Bashkėjetesa e varieteteve tė shqipes gjatė lėvizjeve migruese tė popullsisė brenda vendit - Rasti i tė folmes sė Muhurrit tė Dibrės dhe tė folmes sė qytetit tė Durrėsit dhe rrethinave tė tij:

"Nė tė folmen e Durrėsit sikurse nė tė gjitha tė folmet gege jugperėndimore,vėrehen mjaft reduktime qualitative edhe nė rradhėt e zanoreve tė patheksuara:

. A-ja e patheksuar gojore nė rrokje nistore priret tė kalojė nė e: bariu<beriu, makinė< meqin, akrep<ekrep etj.
. 0-ja e patheksuar gojore nėrrokje nistore kalon nė a: korrik< karrik, gomar< gamor, kotec<katec etj.
. U-ja e patheksuar kalon nė a: Kuptoj<capto, kurris< karris, ose nė I:fuqi< fiqi, fuēi<fiēi.
. Ė-ja nė pozicionin paratheksor kalon nė disa raste nė a: kėndoj< kanoj.

E folmja e Durrėsit ka edhe disa tipare tė vetat qė nuk i kanė tė folmet e tjera gege jugperėndimore:

. Njė hundorėzim analogjik dytėsor nė shumė fjalė:tagjī, tepsī, kusī, kutī, saksī etj.
. Burorėzimi i a-sė gojore qė prihet nga m, n: mars< mors, mal< mol, mall<moll, mjalt< mjo:lt
. Bashtingėllorja dh dė gjohet e reduktuar ose kalon nė rr a ll: livadh< livall.
. Grupet pl, bl, fl janė zhvilluar pėrkatėsisht nė pj, bj, fj: plesht< pjesht,plak< pja:k, pjatė< pjot, fjo:k.
. E pakryera nuk ka larmi formash, ajo paraqitet mė uniforme sin ė njėjės edhe nė shumės pėrdoret rregullisht ajo mė sh.
. E ardhmja e tipit kam + paskajoren gege takohet mė shpesh nė tė folmet fqinje."

trdbr1234
01-04-2021, 02:32 AM
There are some interesting stuff Sadikaj addresses.

Firstly, it defines the borders of the "Vilayet of Dulgo Brdo" in the early Turkish defter.

Within the Vilayet is included all of Gryka Madhe and Bulqiza. It seems as though these formed as separate entities in the creation of "Malet e Dibres" out of DulgoBrda. First is a map from Sadikaj book "Gollobordasit e Dibres" based on the Turkish defters. The second is a relief on modern borders. I've added the names and borders of the historic "Krahina". Sadikaj says that the region of "Drimkolli Dibres" which encompass the villages of Golloborde that are today in Macedonia was created in 1850's by the Ottomans as a divisive tactic. It never existed before this time and was part of Golloborde. This policy was continued by Yugoslavs for the same reason.
https://i.ibb.co/MRFtk3D/Vilayet-of-Bulgo-Brdo-Sadikaj.png
https://i.ibb.co/DGGgwKk/Dibra-dhe-Golloborda2.png

Sadikaj also addresses the inconsistencies with border definitions. He states that in the north Gjorica, Cerenec, and Vicisht began to be integrated in Gryka Vogel, while in the west, Ternova Vogel, Ternova Madhe, and Smollnik began to be integrated in Gryka Madhe. Both of these began in the late 1800's.

p53 He believes that Golloborda comes from Kolaberdenej - Kalabri. He quotes Russian ethnographer Prof. A.M. Salishev in "Slavs of Albania" that stated in 1931, "There used to live Albanians in the region of Golloborde, Albanian Kalabrii, that when they migrated en mass in 1500's were referred to as Galaberdenej, as in people from todays Golloborde."

There is actually some merit to this as the village of Gollovisht today was called Kolavec and has undergone a similar evolution.



There are apparently 4 different Kocis in the region.
Koci in Trebisht are regarded as the oldest and largest in the village. -He states however that they now probably hold different surnames and they don't know who is Koci exactly. Balla is also one of the oldest in Trebisht.
Koci in Ostren is considered the oldest there along with Tola and Duka.
Koci in Tucep settled there after a blood feud in Koxhaxhik, Zhupa area. Sadaj from Tucep also belongs to this Koci. (p132)

Regarding Okshtun, Prodan, and Oreshnje, Sadikaj mentions this story.
In the 1600's came a population from Mati bordering Mirdita whom left there to escape blood feuds among other reasons. The first to come were Balla and Sallaku. A bit later came Stojku and Biba. Last came Disha and Tahiraj. In these settlements, the population grew so much that they created their own neighborhoods. These neighborhoods took on their names. These are Balla, Muglica, Oreshna, Plepa, and Shullani.

He states that the village of Okshtun had a dispute with Martanesh about herding pastures. Conflict escalated until Okshtun killed 50-60 Martaneshi. To escape reprisals from Martanesh, they moved Eastwards. In the 1700's, the brothers Koco, Ligori, and Stojko come. They stay for a short time in Okshtun Madh, at the place called "Livadhi Kocit." From there they settle in Prodan. This is when they were also converted to Islam.

This story has some inconsistencies. First, the story states that Koco, Ligori, and Stojku came from Mati-Mirdita area where others families from the region of Okshtun region also come from. He also quotes a village historian that states the village used to be Catholic.

However, Koco, Stojku, and Ligori are all three associated with Orthodoxy and not Catholicism as are the names in the early Ottoman census from the area. If they did come from Mati-Mirdita border in the 1700's, why do they have Orthodox names and not Catholic?

Secondly, R1a-Y133383 which is clustered in the area has a TMRCA greater than the stated time of arrival of the families in the region. From my understanding with "Dibran", TMRCA with him and a individual from Diber Madhe is now around 1200ybp.

I think that this story might be true and likely much older than is stated because the dispersion of these newly arrived families from the story match perfectly with the dispersion of R1a-Y133383 in the region. I also think that these individual families from the story that came in different periods are a historical family tree and not individual families that moved into the region. That's my opinion.


There is also an interesting story about Sebisht that I think may be related to this dispersion/expansion and/or conflict with Martanesh.

page 123, Sadikaj proposes that people from Sebisht inhabited the old village of Derstile mentioned in early Turkish defters somewhere nearby. This village became "unlivable" and the villagers decided to relocate. Half of the villagers moved to Sebisht, a quarter to Zabzun and a quarter to Prodan. He proposes that Prodan was created during this time because it is not mentioned in Turkish defters.

page 70, He states that excavations in Borove and Zabzun reveal there is a continuation of the Komani culture in these villages.

A list of fis in the book
https://i.ibb.co/1Qyn30X/Fiset.png


He also addresses the surname inconsistencies that we've come across with Y-DNA. There is apparently a culture of "adoption' into the fis. The way this generally occurs is if a groom settles into the wife's land, he assumes the fis of his wife. This was apparently common. Sometimes unrelated individuals take on the surname and become fis even if they move into the land of the large fis. One example in Trebisht-Bala, Bllaca married Kamberis daughter and Kamberi gifted them land. Bllaca then became a Kamberi. Bllaca's daughter then married Koxhaxhik and moved into Bllaca's land. Koxhaxhik also became Kamberi. So 3 unrelated Kamberi on paternal side.

Kelmendasi
01-04-2021, 02:51 AM
It was very interesting how Sadikaj states that the Mali of Borova are essentially a branch of the Cani, who came from Macukull in northern Mat. When Novik's team interviewed a member of the Mali during their expeditions, they were told by him that the fis had originally come from Guri i Bardhė rather than the aforementioned village. I'll ask my relatives on my mothers side if they know of any distant relation with the Cani.

As for the religious demographic and history of the village, it is entirely Sunni Muslim. The only case of conversion that was remembered by my maternal relatives was that of the Ceta who were apparently Catholic Christian prior to converting to Islam. I'll ask around for more information in regards to this however.

trdbr1234
01-04-2021, 03:04 AM
It was very interesting how Sadikaj states that the Mali of Borova are essentially a branch of the Cani, who came from Macukull in northern Mat. When Novik's team interviewed a member of the Mali during their expeditions, they were told by him that the fis had originally come from Guri i Bardhė rather than the aforementioned village. I'll ask my relatives on my mothers side if they know of any distant relation with the Cani.

As for the religious demographic and history of the village, it is entirely Sunni Muslim. The only case of conversion that was remembered by my maternal relatives was that of the Ceta who were apparently Catholic Christian prior to converting to Islam. I'll ask around for more information in regards to this however.

Sadikaj proposes that everyone was either Orthodox, came Catholic and became Orthodox, or came later and was already Muslim before they came. Majority of these fis that came from Mati supposedly came to flee persecution in their respective regions and were Catholic. In Golloborde they converted to Orthodoxy. Many generations after they became Muslim along with everyone else.

On page 131 in relation to Pasinke, he quotes Serbian writer that stated that in Shkup there was a Orthodox woman married to a man from Vicisht. This woman claimed to have been from Borove.

He also mentions the marriage patterns in the region.

Trebisht didn't send females to marry in other villages. They did however take females from Gjinovec, Ostren i Vogel, Tucep, Lladomerice.
Klenje exchanged with Gjinovec and Borove
Gjinovec exchanged with Sebisht, Lejcan, Kojavec, Radovesh
Okshtun with Oreshnje, Okshtun Vogel, Moglice, Prodan, Shullan, Ternove.
Smollik with Ternove and Lubalesh, Lejcan, Ostren Madh, Radovesh

Kelmendasi
01-04-2021, 03:19 AM
Sadikaj proposes that everyone was either Orthodox, came Catholic and became Orthodox, or came later and was already Muslim before they came. Majority of these fis that came from Mati supposedly came to flee persecution in their respective regions and were Catholic. In Golloborde they converted to Orthodoxy. Many generations after they became Muslim along with everyone else.

On page 131 in relation to Pasinke, he quotes Serbian writer that stated that in Shkup there was a Orthodox woman married to a man from Vicisht. This woman claimed to have been from Borove.

He also mentions the marriage patterns in the region.

Trebisht didn't send females to marry in other villages. They did however take females from Gjinovec, Ostren i Vogel, Tucep, Lladomerice.
Klenje exchanged with Gjinovec and Borove
Gjinovec exchanged with Sebisht, Lejcan, Kojavec, Radovesh
Okshtun with Oreshnje, Okshtun Vogel, Moglice, Prodan, Shullan, Ternove.
Smollik with Ternove and Lubalesh, Lejcan, Ostren Madh, Radovesh
The Ottoman defter of 1467 does suggest that there was a considerable Orthodox Christian presence even in western Golloborda (or Malėsi as it is also referred to as) as Orthodox anthroponyms do show up, and there is also mention in some sources (I believe Sadikaj mentions this as well) of a practice of celebration dedicated to the eleventh century Prince of Duklja, Jovan Vladimir. This was supposedly practiced by both Christians of the Orthodox faith and even Muslims. However, the oral traditions of a Catholic arrival should be taken note of and could suggest that some families did belong to this denomination. The term "Latin" is also mentioned as being present in certain toponyms, this in most cases attests to a Catholic presence rather than a presence of Romance-speakers such as Vlachs.

In regards to marriages, Borova also had marital ties with Stebleva, Zabzun and Fushė Studėn.

trdbr1234
01-04-2021, 07:28 AM
http://www.ongal.net/editions2/GOLO_BARDO1_2009_INNER_BOOK.pdf
Традиции, музика, идентичност - Част 1

..........

http://www.omda.bg/uploaded_files/files/articles/Golo_bardo_2_text_web2__1395571942.pdf
Език, обредност, музика - Част 2

Selishtev's Славянское население в Албании with the more modern Russian orthography (easier to grasp or run thru Google translate)

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/seli_sna/index.html

Thank you for sharing. It is taking me a bit longer to read with google translate.

trdbr1234
01-04-2021, 08:07 AM
The Ottoman defter of 1467 does suggest that there was a considerable Orthodox Christian presence even in western Golloborda (or Malėsi as it is also referred to as) as Orthodox anthroponyms do show up, and there is also mention in some sources (I believe Sadikaj mentions this as well) of a practice of celebration dedicated to the eleventh century Prince of Duklja, Jovan Vladimir. This was supposedly practiced by both Christians of the Orthodox faith and even Muslims. However, the oral traditions of a Catholic arrival should be taken note of and could suggest that some families did belong to this denomination. The term "Latin" is also mentioned as being present in certain toponyms, this in most cases attests to a Catholic presence rather than a presence of Romance-speakers such as Vlachs.

In regards to marriages, Borova also had marital ties with Stebleva, Zabzun and Fushė Studėn.

Yeah, Western Golloborde which includes Borove was considered "Malesi" according to most authors.

I am still uncertain who was and wasn't in "Malet e Dibres". I have to reread Kristo Frasheri - Historia Dibres. If I am not mistaken he stated that in the strict definition, Eastern Golloborde payed taxes to Ottomans in able to work as builders within the empire, and this is why they didn't meet the strict criteria. However, "Eastern Golloborde" seems to have taken part in all the struggles of Malet e Dibres which puts the defining criteria in question. Ostren specifically was heavily involved. As an example, Kristo Frasheri notes that prior to the Battle of Gjorica, Ottomans barred all the masons from Diber and Golloborde specifically from working within the empire. This ballooned the numbers of fighters for the Dibran fighters.

Sadikaj also mentioned a historian from Diber that regarded "Martanesh" as part of "Malet e Dibres." This has to be incorrect because Martanesh is part of Mati. The conflicts of Okshtun, Oreshnje, and Prodan in Western Golloborde had with Martanesh also contradict this, as Malet weren't allowed conflicts among one-another. Apparently Lura wasn't a Malsi either which is a bit questionable. I do think there are some inconsistencies. I read a long time ago an article stating that each region in "Malet e Dibres" had a vote, except Golloborde had 2 votes. I am unsure how reliable this article was tho.

Zabzun and Zerqan were referred to as Latini according to Novik. There are some other Catholic references, which is natural.

Korabi
01-04-2021, 01:44 PM
Yeah, Western Golloborde which includes Borove was considered "Malesi" according to most authors.

I am still uncertain who was and wasn't in "Malet e Dibres". I have to reread Kristo Frasheri - Historia Dibres. If I am not mistaken he stated that in the strict definition, Eastern Golloborde payed taxes to Ottomans in able to work as builders within the empire, and this is why they didn't meet the strict criteria. However, "Eastern Golloborde" seems to have taken part in all the struggles of Malet e Dibres which puts the defining criteria in question. Ostren specifically was heavily involved. As an example, Kristo Frasheri notes that prior to the Battle of Gjorica, Ottomans barred all the masons from Diber and Golloborde specifically from working within the empire. This ballooned the numbers of fighters for the Dibran fighters.

Sadikaj also mentioned a historian from Diber that regarded "Martanesh" as part of "Malet e Dibres." This has to be incorrect because Martanesh is part of Mati. The conflicts of Okshtun, Oreshnje, and Prodan in Western Golloborde had with Martanesh also contradict this, as Malet weren't allowed conflicts among one-another. Apparently Lura wasn't a Malsi either which is a bit questionable. I do think there are some inconsistencies. I read a long time ago an article stating that each region in "Malet e Dibres" had a vote, except Golloborde had 2 votes. I am unsure how reliable this article was tho.

Zabzun and Zerqan were referred to as Latini according to Novik. There are some other Catholic references, which is natural.

Why is Western Golloborde considered Malesi exactly? While I know they have some mountains, isn't it a low peak and more hilly valley? Or is that more the case with Eastern Golloborde?

I thought Malesi Dibres is only 9 Malet.

trdbr1234
01-04-2021, 03:24 PM
Why is Western Golloborde considered Malesi exactly? While I know they have some mountains, isn't it a low peak and more hilly valley? Or is that more the case with Eastern Golloborde?

I thought Malesi Dibres is only 9 Malet.

Well Eastern and Western Golloborde are both Malesi, as in a mountainous region where the laws of the Kanun are followed. However, Diber region divided itself into two fractions after Turkish occupation. One was called "Malet" and the other Topallti. The main aim of "Malet" was Turkish resistance, where they were forbidden from paying taxes, sending soldiers, with the goal of liberation from Ottoman rule. Topallti payed taxes, and sometimes(very rarely) send soldiers. "Malet" inhabit the mountainous area of Diber to the West of the Drin river. This is probably another strict definition which includes Eastern Golloborde. While Topallti includes all parts of Diber to east of Drin River. Topallti includes the Plains of Peshkopia area and the Korab mountain, Reka(Reka Eper, Reka Poshtme, Mijaci), Zhupa(The Koxhaxhik area), and Eastern Golloborde(The situation with Eastern Golloborde is not conclusive).

"9 Malet" was also a changing landscape. There were initially 7 Male. Some of the larger "Male" separated into two.

The Ottomans generally held a policy of appeasement towards this region because all their efforts of subduing it ended in failure. However, historians form Diber also hold the view that the Ottomans also applied a policy of division in Topalltia. One was by allowing Church services in Serbian, Bulgarian, and Greek in contradiction to one another. The other was by forced Islamization and forced Turkification(Zhupa area specifically). Thirdly, they frequently changed the official borders to sow confusion. What is interesting is that by some accounts, "9 Malet" of Dibra considered as part of the Diber domain not only the aforementioned areas but also the entire region of Macedonia stretching to Manastir(Bitola).


NĖNTĖ MALET DHE TOPALLTIA E DIBRĖS


Nėntė Malet e Dibrės dheTopalltia
Ndarja figurative e Dibrės nė Male dhe Topallti Nė gjysmėn e dytė tė shekullit tė 18-tė, Dibra, ndahet nė dy njėsi gjeografike. Si kriter pėr kėtė ndarje shėrbeu nėnshtrimi ose jo ndaj pushtetit dhe autoritetit turk. Nė trashėgiminė gojore dibrane kjo ndarje shpjegohet kėshtu: Pashai turk, i asaj kohe, sikur kishte bėrė me anėn tjetėr, kėrkoi qė tek ai tė paraqiteshin edhe Malet burrė pėr shtėpi. Malėsia, ana e majtė e rrjedhjes sė Drinit tė Zi, dėrgoi para pashait vetėm tre pėrfaqėsues, tė cilėt ishin : njė i menēur, njė sullxhi (pajtimtar) dhe njė trim i marrė. Kėto tre persona alternuan veprimet e tyre para pashait turk dhe i bėnė tė ditur atij se Malet e Dibrės nuk i nėnshtrohen. Kur pashai turk i kėrcėnoi pėrse nuk ishin paraqitur tė tjerėt, sipas njoftimit, burrė pėr shtėpi dhe u tha se do t’i fuste nė burg edhe ata qė kishin ardhur, trimi i marrė i vuri pashait turk pushkėn nė fyt. Nė ēast ndėrhyn sullxhiu, duke i thėnė shokut tė tij se do ta zgjidhnin pa luftė kėtė punė. Ndėrsa i menēuri, kur pashait turk i kishte ikur truri, i tha atij: “Kur tre vetave nuk iu bėnė dot ballė, po sikur tė kishin ardhur para teje burrė pėr shtėpi, si do tė kishe bėrė?!” Pashai, deshi s’deshi, u dorėzua. Ata ikėn e Malet as iu paraqitėn pashait, e as iu bindėn Turqisė. Por, ėshtė i rėndėsishėm fakti se vėrtet Topalltia iu nėnshtrua turkut, por kohė mė vonė, u bė flamurtarja e qėndresės antiosmane nė Dibėr, organizatorja dhe koordinatorja e tė gjithė veprimeve luftarake me armė kundėr perandorisė osmane, si dhe e pėrhapjes sė qytetėrimit dhe arsimit te dibranėt. Topalltia: Pėr nga shkalla e shtrirjes sė sundimit turk, Dibra ndahej nė dy pjesė tė saj, qyteti i Dibrės sė Madhe, Reka, Krahina e Zhupės e Koxhaxhikut, fshatrat nė lindje tė rrugės Dibėr-Peshkopi dhe Golloborda qė paguanin taksat dhe ndonjėherė jepnin ushtarė, quheshin Topallti. [1] Sipas Haki Sharofit “Topallti quhej ajo pjesė e Dibrės qė kishte pranuar e njohur disi sundimin turk, d.m.th. paguante vergji, tė dhjeta e xhelep dhe, ndonjėherė mė rrallė, jepte edhe ushtarė. Nė kėtė pjesė hynte Qyteti i Dibrės, Reka, Krahina e Zhupės, e Koxhaxhikut, katundet nė lindje tė rrugės Dibėr-Peshkopi dhe Golloborda Lindore” .[2] Malėsia "Nėntė Malet" Kėshtu, Malet historikė tė Dibrės lindėn si nevojė e rezistencės antiturke dhe qenė forma organizimi shtetėror vetėqeverisės pėr atė periudhė. Malet, si njėsi administrative vetėqeverisėse, ashtu si dhe bajraqet nė disa pjesė tė vendit (edhe nė Lurė), lindėn nė shekullin XVII. [3]. Malet kishin edhe krahun e vetė tė armatosur pėr rast lufte, dhe kur jepej kushtrimi pėr luftė kundėr pushtuesit, mobilizimi bėhej “burrė pėr shtėpi” ose “burrė pėr pushkė”. Vendimet merreshin nė Kuvendin e Malit, ku caktohej edhe komandanti ushtarak dhe shtabi i luftės.[4] Kėtė e dėshmojnė tė gjithė dokumentet e kohės, si dhe studimet e mėpastajme . Krahinat qė nuk iu nėnshtruan asnjėherė pushtuesit u quajtėn “ Male". Nė fillim, Dibra kishte shtatė “Male”, tė cilat qenė Reē e Dardhė, Ēidhėn, Luzni, Muhurr, Katėr-Grykėt, Gryka e Madhe dhe Gryka e Vogėl. Mė pas u nda Mali i Reēit e Dardhės dhe u krijua Mali e Reēit dhe Mali i Dardhės, si dhe Gryka u Madhe u nda nė dy Male tė tjera Gryka e Madhe dhe Bulqiza. Grykė e Vogėl kishte tė parė Demėn, Grykė e Madhe kishte tė parė Shehun, Bulqiza kishte tė parė Dalip Karajn dhe Katėr Grykėt kishin tė parė Gazihanin, Reēi kishte tė parė Trocin, Dardha kishte tė parė Ndreun, Ēidhna kishte tė parė Alinė, Muhurri kishte tė parė Hoxhėn dhe Luznia kishte tė parė Murren" [5] Haki Sharofi e pėrcakton kėshtu Malėsinė me “Nėntė Malet” e saj: “Malėsia e Dibrės, merrte emrin “Nandė Malet e Dibrės” qė emėroheshin kėshtu :Reēi, Dardha, Ēidhna, Muhurri e Luznia nė Dibėr tė Poshtme dhe Gryka e Vogėl, Gryka e Madhe, Bulqiza e Katėr-Grykėt nė Dibėr tė Epėrm. Katėr Grykat janė Selishta, Qafa e Murrės, Lukani e Kacnia. Veē kėtyre kanė qenė numėruar Malėsi edhe Golloborda Perėndimore e Martaneshi”[6]. "Nėntė Malet " e Dibrės i njihte dhe Stambolli, ai i sundonte me shumė takt e marifet, herė me t'urtė e herė me t'egėr e me ekspedita ndėshkimore, ua ndėrronte vartėsinė, ose me Sanxhakun e Ohrit, ose nėn atė tė Prizrenit. Edhe Valiu i Shkodrės shumė herė pėrzihej nė punėt e Dibrės."[7] “Nėntė Malet, mė vonė janė drejtuar edhe nga Vilajeti i Manastirit. "Malet" janė shprehje etnografike, por "Malet" janė organizime, forma vetėqeverisje tė malėsorėve, organizim kundėr sundimit turk. "Malet" emėrtoheshin me emrat e qendrave mė tė rėndėsishme tė krahinės. Vendimet mė tė rėndėsishme merreshin nė Kuvendin e Malit, ku merrnin pjesė burrė pėr shtėpi. Ligji i "Malit" ishte Itifaku, qė zbatohej me rreptėsi nga tė gjithė. Dibra ka “Nėntė Male”. 'Male" kishte dhe nė krahina tė tjera tė Veriut. Shtatė "Malet" e Veriut qė rezistonin kundėr turqve sė bashku ishin : Tejmali i Shkodrės, Kelmendi, Dukagjini i Shalės, Iballa e Pukės, Shpali i Mirditės, Ēidhna e Dibrės dhe Pllajsi i Matit dhe mblidheshin nė Gomsiqe tė Pukės. Kuvendi i parė i Maleve tė Veriut ėshtė mbajtur nė shekullin XV. "Malet" ranė nė ujdi me turqit pėrsa mė poshtė: 1.Myslimanė tė ktheheshin sipas dėshirės dhe jo me forcė. 2.Tė mos jepnin asqer e tė mos paguanin haraē. 3.Kush donte tė shkonte nė Itali ose nė ndonjė vend tjetėr tė lihej i lirė. 4.Malet do tė ndihmonin turkun sa herė qė ai tė kishte luftė mė ndonjė fis tė Ballkanit.[8] Nė Malet e Dibrės dhe nė krejt Dibrėn ėshtė zbatuar Kanuni i Skėnderbeut. Dibra nuk ka kanun tė vetin dhe ēdo pikėpamje tjetėr ėshtė spekulim. Pas vdekjes sė Skėnderbeut turqit pushtuan pėrsėri Dibrėn. Ata bėnė pėr vete disa krerė tė cilėve iu bėnė edhe privilegje. Zemzades nė Limjan i dhanė gradėn e pashės. Tulmani nė Sohodoll u bė vali. Ēipuri u bė njė feudal i pėrmendur me prona tė mėdha.[9] Nė fillim tė shekullit XVI “Nėntė Malet” u mblodhėn nė kuvend pėr tė kundėrshtuar Turqinė, e cila e sulmoi sėrish. Nė kėtė mbledhje pikat e kararit tė Maleve tė Veriut iu shtuan edhe kėto pika: 1.Malet tė qėndronin tė bashkuar me njėri-tjetrin nė ēdo rast, nė ēdo rrethanė. 2.Territori i ēdo mali tė quhej territor i tė Nėntė Maleve dhe po u cenua ndonjėri prej tyre i kujtdoqoftė, tė mbrohet nga tė gjithė. 3.Nė Grykė tė Vogėl, qė ishte nė ballin e sulmeve turke tė vendosej njė roje e pėrhershme qė tė lajmonte. 4.Asnjė malėsorė prej maleve tė mos pranonte tituj e grada si pashė, apo spahi dhe tė mos shėrbente nė ushtrinė dhe administratėn osmane. 5.Kush hynte nė shėrbim tė shtetit turk, nxirrej me forcė pėrgjithmonė nga malet. 6.Turkut tė mos i jepeshin kurrė armėt, sa ishin gjallė. 7.Po tė kėrkonte ndihmė Topalltia ose ndonjė krahinė tjetėr nė luftė kundėr turqve, t'i shkohej menjėherė. 8.Secili Mal, nė tubimet popullore tė zgjidhte plakun e vet pėr vendosjen e karareve. 9.Secili plak tė kishte 3-4 ēekiē (ndihmėsa) qė do tė ndanin ngatėrresat, vrasjet pėr hakmarrje,etj. 10. Po tė vritej ndokush, plaku, i cili nuk ishte i armatosur, vendoste qė vrasėsi tė pushkatohej, t'i digjej shtėpia, familja tė largohej pėr njė kohė tė caktuar, ose t'i priteshin pemėt dhe t'i merrej toka, 11.Nė rast lufte kundėr turqve, ndalohej ēdo lloj hakmarrje, 12.Ndalohej pushka nė gra, tė rinj dhe pleq tė paarmatosur. Fshatra tė Nėntė Maleve ishin : Mali i Reēit: Tharku, Kraj-Reēi, Bardhaj-Reē dhe mė vonė Gjurrė-Reē, Zall-Reē, Draj-Reē, Ndėrshene, Tejmollė; Mali i Dardhės: Tartaj, Lashkizė, Merskane dhe mė vonė edhe Soricė, Zalldardhė, Lugjaj, Shenllesh, Nezhaj; Mali i Ēidhnės: Grykė-Nokė, Ēidhėn e Poshtme, Marēaj ose Krrash, Arras, Sinė e Poshtme, Sinė e Epėrme, Lazrej dhe mė vonė edhe Mustafej, Fushė-Alie, Laēes, Blliēe, Rrenxė, Kukaj, Kastriot, Kandėrr, Brest i Epėrm, Kodėr-Leshe; Mali i Muhurrit: Bulaē, Shorokan, Hurdhė-Muhurr, Sqath dhe mė vonė edhe Fushė-Muhurr,Vajmėdhenj, Kishavec, Rethkalaj, Vakuf; Mali i Luznisė: Arape, Lishan, Hotesh dhe mė vonė edhe Katund i ri, Selane; Mali i Katėr-Grykėve: Lukan, Selishtė, Kacni, Katundi i Vjetėr i Murrės, Qafė-Murrė; Mali i Grykės sė Madhe: Strikēan, Sopot, Zerqan, Valikardhė, Peladhi, Godvi, Krajkė, Sofraēan dhe mė vonė edhe Mali i Grykės sė Vogėl: Gjurras, Mazhicė, Topojan, Stushan, Zogjaj, Bllacė, Kovashicė, Homesh, Shupenzė dhe mė vonė edhe Boēevė, Vlashaj, Gjoricė, Ēerenecė, Viēisht; Mali i Bulqizės: Koēaj, Ēiraj, Dushaj, Vajkal, Dragu dhe mė vonė edhe Fushė-Bulqizė. Pastaj ndodhėn kėto ndryshime: Katundi Thark dhe katundi Hurdhė i Reēit u kthyen nė lagje tė katundit Bardhaj-Reē, Katundi Lazrej nė Ēidhėn u kthye nė lagje tė katundit Mustafe, katundi Merskan i Dardhės u kthye nė lagje tė katundit Lashkizė, Katundi i Vjetėr i Katėr-Grykėve u kthye nė katundin Qafė-Murrė, katundi Ēiraj u kthye nė lagje tė katundit Koēaj. Malet e Dibrės, qė nga formimi i tyre e deri nė vitin 1910 nuk janė pėrfshirė nė ndonjė regjistėr turk, nuk kanė dhėnė ushtarė, nuk kanė paguar taksa.[10] Nė malet e Dibrės nuk ka pasur bajraktar nė kuptimin e plotė tė fjalės pėrveē atij tė Lurės, sepse Lura ishte Bajrak dhe jo Mal. Fjala bajrak nė njė kuptim ėshtė e njėvleftshme me fjalėn flamur, ndėrsa fjala bajraktar ėshtė e njėvleftshme me fjalėn flamurmbajtės. Por bajraqet dhe bajraktarėt pėrdoren si emėrtime organizimesh dhe udhėheqjesh tė krahinave tė caktuara. Bajraqet ishin forma organizimi luftarak tė njė njėsie tė caktuar territoriale. Bajraqet ishin forma tė caktuara qeverisje, tė ngjashme me ato tė Maleve, si edhe grupime tė caktuara forcash tė organizuara mbi bazė fisi, fshati a krahine. Pas luftės, bajraktarėt nuk kishin mė emėr dhe fuqi. Itifaku i miratuar nė kuvendin e shekullit XV kishte si bosht: 1.Luftė kundėr Turqisė, 2.Ruajtja e gjuhės dhe e zakoneve tė Malit, 3.Mosdhėnia haraē e tė dhjeta Turqisė dhe 4. Mosthyerja e "Besės sė Maleve" Nė ēdo katund me tre fise ēdo kryetar mblidhte fisin e vet, ku diskutoheshin ēėshtjet themelore tė besės: 1. Pas sinjalit pėr luftė tė gjithė tė armatosurit tė mblidheshin nė njė vend, qė ishte i pėrcaktuar pėr ēdo fshat, 2.Armėt dhe fishekėt tė pėrballoheshin nga gjithsecili, 3. Nė rast kushtrimi tė lihej ēdo punė, 4. Nė rast dasme lejohej tė qėndronte vetėm dhėndėri, 5. Nė rast mortje lejoheshin tė bėnin varrimin vetėm 4 vetė, 6. Kėta (dhėndėri dhe ata qė lejoheshin pėr varrim) tė nesėrmen e ditės sė dasmės ose tė mortjes duhet tė niseshin menjėherė nė luftė. 7. Po u dėgjua zėri i daulles ose tri tė shtėna pushke pushohej ēdo lloj hakmarrje nė mes fiseve, 8. Atij qė hakmerrej brenda kėsaj kohe i digjej shtėpia, i merrej bagėtia dhe familja i shpėrngulej me detyrim nga fshati, 9. Ai, qė bėhej hafije (spiun) tek turqit a pėrkrahėsit e tyre dėnohej, duke zbatuar pikėn e tetė.[11] I pari i fisit takohej me kryetarėt e fiseve tė tjera dhe zgjidhnin pėrfaqėsuesin e fshatit, qė do tė pėrfaqėsonte Malin nė Kuvendin e Pėrgjithshėm tė Maleve. Nėntė Malet nuk kishin tė parė, por drejtoheshin nga njė kėshill kolegjial, qė vendoste unanimisht, ose jo, pėr veprime tė caktuara. Nė mbledhjet e kėtij kėshilli nderi i takonte mė tė largėtit. Ky merrte kryet e berrit nė sofėr dhe zinte kryet e vendit nė kuvend. Pėrfaqėsuesit ndaheshin nė pleq qė formonin pleqėsinė dhe nė tė parė, tė cilėt formonin parinė. Pėr t'u bėrė plak duhet tė ishe i drejtė dhe i menēur, tė kishe dhėnė prova pėr zgjuarsi dhe drejtėsi nė fis, fshat dhe nė krahinė, tė ishe njohės i mirė i ligjeve tė pashkruara tė Maleve, i Kanunit tė Lekės. Formula e betimit tė plakut ishte: "Kushdo qoftė ai qė then besėn e fisit, katundit a tė Maleve, qoftė edhe fėmija im, do tė gjykohet me drejtėsi". Kjo formulė ėshtė pėrdor deri nė vitin 1912. Disa shtėpi pleqsh mbetėn pleq tė pėrhershėm, si Noka e Lusha nė Ēidhėn, Troci nė Reē etj. Nga Fatos DACI (Pjesė nga libri “Enciklopedia e Dibrės” [1] ." H.Lleshi "Vite,njerėz, ngjarje" fq. F.9 [2] Libri “Haki Sharofi dhe vepra e tij”, fq.90 [3] Nazif Dokle:”Kukėsi” (Vėshtrim enciklopedik), fq.15. [4] Rakip Sinani: Libri “Dibra dhe dibranėt nė faqet e historisė”, fq.41 [5] H.Lleshi "Vite,njerėz, ngjarje" fq.9 dhe "Dibra e dibranėt",fq.38 [6] H.Lleshi "Vite,njerėz, ngjarje" fq. 9 dhe "Dibra e dibranėt",fq.38 [7] Xhelal Ndreu "Nuk ka qetėsi nė Lisivalle" fq. 34-48 [8] Haziz Ndreu, "Dibra nė udhėn e historisė",fq.16-18 [9] Hazis Ndreu, "Dibra nė udhėn e historisė", fq.16-18 [10] Hazis Ndreu, "Dibra nė udhėn e historisė", fq.33-42 [11] Hazis Ndreu, "Dibra nė udhėn e historisė", fq.49-50

Sorcelow
01-04-2021, 07:09 PM
Well Eastern and Western Golloborde are both Malesi, as in a mountainous region where the laws of the Kanun are followed. However, Diber region divided itself into two fractions after Turkish occupation. One was called "Malet" and the other Topallti. The main aim of "Malet" was Turkish resistance, where they were forbidden from paying taxes, sending soldiers, with the goal of liberation from Ottoman rule. Topallti payed taxes, and sometimes(very rarely) send soldiers. "Malet" inhabit the mountainous area of Diber to the West of the Drin river. This is probably another strict definition which includes Eastern Golloborde. While Topallti includes all parts of Diber to east of Drin River. Topallti includes the Plains of Peshkopia area and the Korab mountain, Reka(Reka Eper, Reka Poshtme, Mijaci), Zhupa(The Koxhaxhik area), and Eastern Golloborde(The situation with Eastern Golloborde is not conclusive).

"9 Malet" was also a changing landscape. There were initially 7 Male. Some of the larger "Male" separated into two.

The Ottomans generally held a policy of appeasement towards this region because all their efforts of subduing it ended in failure. However, historians form Diber also hold the view that the Ottomans also applied a policy of division in Topalltia. One was by allowing Church services in Serbian, Bulgarian, and Greek in contradiction to one another. The other was by forced Islamization and forced Turkification(Zhupa area specifically). Thirdly, they frequently changed the official borders to sow confusion. What is interesting is that by some accounts, "9 Malet" of Dibra considered as part of the Diber domain not only the aforementioned areas but also the entire region of Macedonia stretching to Manastir(Bitola).


NĖNTĖ MALET DHE TOPALLTIA E DIBRĖS


Nėntė Malet e Dibrės dheTopalltia
Ndarja figurative e Dibrės nė Male dhe Topallti Nė gjysmėn e dytė tė shekullit tė 18-tė, Dibra, ndahet nė dy njėsi gjeografike. Si kriter pėr kėtė ndarje shėrbeu nėnshtrimi ose jo ndaj pushtetit dhe autoritetit turk. Nė trashėgiminė gojore dibrane kjo ndarje shpjegohet kėshtu: Pashai turk, i asaj kohe, sikur kishte bėrė me anėn tjetėr, kėrkoi qė tek ai tė paraqiteshin edhe Malet burrė pėr shtėpi. Malėsia, ana e majtė e rrjedhjes sė Drinit tė Zi, dėrgoi para pashait vetėm tre pėrfaqėsues, tė cilėt ishin : njė i menēur, njė sullxhi (pajtimtar) dhe njė trim i marrė. Kėto tre persona alternuan veprimet e tyre para pashait turk dhe i bėnė tė ditur atij se Malet e Dibrės nuk i nėnshtrohen. Kur pashai turk i kėrcėnoi pėrse nuk ishin paraqitur tė tjerėt, sipas njoftimit, burrė pėr shtėpi dhe u tha se do t’i fuste nė burg edhe ata qė kishin ardhur, trimi i marrė i vuri pashait turk pushkėn nė fyt. Nė ēast ndėrhyn sullxhiu, duke i thėnė shokut tė tij se do ta zgjidhnin pa luftė kėtė punė. Ndėrsa i menēuri, kur pashait turk i kishte ikur truri, i tha atij: “Kur tre vetave nuk iu bėnė dot ballė, po sikur tė kishin ardhur para teje burrė pėr shtėpi, si do tė kishe bėrė?!” Pashai, deshi s’deshi, u dorėzua. Ata ikėn e Malet as iu paraqitėn pashait, e as iu bindėn Turqisė. Por, ėshtė i rėndėsishėm fakti se vėrtet Topalltia iu nėnshtrua turkut, por kohė mė vonė, u bė flamurtarja e qėndresės antiosmane nė Dibėr, organizatorja dhe koordinatorja e tė gjithė veprimeve luftarake me armė kundėr perandorisė osmane, si dhe e pėrhapjes sė qytetėrimit dhe arsimit te dibranėt. Topalltia: Pėr nga shkalla e shtrirjes sė sundimit turk, Dibra ndahej nė dy pjesė tė saj, qyteti i Dibrės sė Madhe, Reka, Krahina e Zhupės e Koxhaxhikut, fshatrat nė lindje tė rrugės Dibėr-Peshkopi dhe Golloborda qė paguanin taksat dhe ndonjėherė jepnin ushtarė, quheshin Topallti. [1] Sipas Haki Sharofit “Topallti quhej ajo pjesė e Dibrės qė kishte pranuar e njohur disi sundimin turk, d.m.th. paguante vergji, tė dhjeta e xhelep dhe, ndonjėherė mė rrallė, jepte edhe ushtarė. Nė kėtė pjesė hynte Qyteti i Dibrės, Reka, Krahina e Zhupės, e Koxhaxhikut, katundet nė lindje tė rrugės Dibėr-Peshkopi dhe Golloborda Lindore” .[2] Malėsia "Nėntė Malet" Kėshtu, Malet historikė tė Dibrės lindėn si nevojė e rezistencės antiturke dhe qenė forma organizimi shtetėror vetėqeverisės pėr atė periudhė. Malet, si njėsi administrative vetėqeverisėse, ashtu si dhe bajraqet nė disa pjesė tė vendit (edhe nė Lurė), lindėn nė shekullin XVII. [3]. Malet kishin edhe krahun e vetė tė armatosur pėr rast lufte, dhe kur jepej kushtrimi pėr luftė kundėr pushtuesit, mobilizimi bėhej “burrė pėr shtėpi” ose “burrė pėr pushkė”. Vendimet merreshin nė Kuvendin e Malit, ku caktohej edhe komandanti ushtarak dhe shtabi i luftės.[4] Kėtė e dėshmojnė tė gjithė dokumentet e kohės, si dhe studimet e mėpastajme . Krahinat qė nuk iu nėnshtruan asnjėherė pushtuesit u quajtėn “ Male". Nė fillim, Dibra kishte shtatė “Male”, tė cilat qenė Reē e Dardhė, Ēidhėn, Luzni, Muhurr, Katėr-Grykėt, Gryka e Madhe dhe Gryka e Vogėl. Mė pas u nda Mali i Reēit e Dardhės dhe u krijua Mali e Reēit dhe Mali i Dardhės, si dhe Gryka u Madhe u nda nė dy Male tė tjera Gryka e Madhe dhe Bulqiza. Grykė e Vogėl kishte tė parė Demėn, Grykė e Madhe kishte tė parė Shehun, Bulqiza kishte tė parė Dalip Karajn dhe Katėr Grykėt kishin tė parė Gazihanin, Reēi kishte tė parė Trocin, Dardha kishte tė parė Ndreun, Ēidhna kishte tė parė Alinė, Muhurri kishte tė parė Hoxhėn dhe Luznia kishte tė parė Murren" [5] Haki Sharofi e pėrcakton kėshtu Malėsinė me “Nėntė Malet” e saj: “Malėsia e Dibrės, merrte emrin “Nandė Malet e Dibrės” qė emėroheshin kėshtu :Reēi, Dardha, Ēidhna, Muhurri e Luznia nė Dibėr tė Poshtme dhe Gryka e Vogėl, Gryka e Madhe, Bulqiza e Katėr-Grykėt nė Dibėr tė Epėrm. Katėr Grykat janė Selishta, Qafa e Murrės, Lukani e Kacnia. Veē kėtyre kanė qenė numėruar Malėsi edhe Golloborda Perėndimore e Martaneshi”[6]. "Nėntė Malet " e Dibrės i njihte dhe Stambolli, ai i sundonte me shumė takt e marifet, herė me t'urtė e herė me t'egėr e me ekspedita ndėshkimore, ua ndėrronte vartėsinė, ose me Sanxhakun e Ohrit, ose nėn atė tė Prizrenit. Edhe Valiu i Shkodrės shumė herė pėrzihej nė punėt e Dibrės."[7] “Nėntė Malet, mė vonė janė drejtuar edhe nga Vilajeti i Manastirit. "Malet" janė shprehje etnografike, por "Malet" janė organizime, forma vetėqeverisje tė malėsorėve, organizim kundėr sundimit turk. "Malet" emėrtoheshin me emrat e qendrave mė tė rėndėsishme tė krahinės. Vendimet mė tė rėndėsishme merreshin nė Kuvendin e Malit, ku merrnin pjesė burrė pėr shtėpi. Ligji i "Malit" ishte Itifaku, qė zbatohej me rreptėsi nga tė gjithė. Dibra ka “Nėntė Male”. 'Male" kishte dhe nė krahina tė tjera tė Veriut. Shtatė "Malet" e Veriut qė rezistonin kundėr turqve sė bashku ishin : Tejmali i Shkodrės, Kelmendi, Dukagjini i Shalės, Iballa e Pukės, Shpali i Mirditės, Ēidhna e Dibrės dhe Pllajsi i Matit dhe mblidheshin nė Gomsiqe tė Pukės. Kuvendi i parė i Maleve tė Veriut ėshtė mbajtur nė shekullin XV. "Malet" ranė nė ujdi me turqit pėrsa mė poshtė: 1.Myslimanė tė ktheheshin sipas dėshirės dhe jo me forcė. 2.Tė mos jepnin asqer e tė mos paguanin haraē. 3.Kush donte tė shkonte nė Itali ose nė ndonjė vend tjetėr tė lihej i lirė. 4.Malet do tė ndihmonin turkun sa herė qė ai tė kishte luftė mė ndonjė fis tė Ballkanit.[8] Nė Malet e Dibrės dhe nė krejt Dibrėn ėshtė zbatuar Kanuni i Skėnderbeut. Dibra nuk ka kanun tė vetin dhe ēdo pikėpamje tjetėr ėshtė spekulim. Pas vdekjes sė Skėnderbeut turqit pushtuan pėrsėri Dibrėn. Ata bėnė pėr vete disa krerė tė cilėve iu bėnė edhe privilegje. Zemzades nė Limjan i dhanė gradėn e pashės. Tulmani nė Sohodoll u bė vali. Ēipuri u bė njė feudal i pėrmendur me prona tė mėdha.[9] Nė fillim tė shekullit XVI “Nėntė Malet” u mblodhėn nė kuvend pėr tė kundėrshtuar Turqinė, e cila e sulmoi sėrish. Nė kėtė mbledhje pikat e kararit tė Maleve tė Veriut iu shtuan edhe kėto pika: 1.Malet tė qėndronin tė bashkuar me njėri-tjetrin nė ēdo rast, nė ēdo rrethanė. 2.Territori i ēdo mali tė quhej territor i tė Nėntė Maleve dhe po u cenua ndonjėri prej tyre i kujtdoqoftė, tė mbrohet nga tė gjithė. 3.Nė Grykė tė Vogėl, qė ishte nė ballin e sulmeve turke tė vendosej njė roje e pėrhershme qė tė lajmonte. 4.Asnjė malėsorė prej maleve tė mos pranonte tituj e grada si pashė, apo spahi dhe tė mos shėrbente nė ushtrinė dhe administratėn osmane. 5.Kush hynte nė shėrbim tė shtetit turk, nxirrej me forcė pėrgjithmonė nga malet. 6.Turkut tė mos i jepeshin kurrė armėt, sa ishin gjallė. 7.Po tė kėrkonte ndihmė Topalltia ose ndonjė krahinė tjetėr nė luftė kundėr turqve, t'i shkohej menjėherė. 8.Secili Mal, nė tubimet popullore tė zgjidhte plakun e vet pėr vendosjen e karareve. 9.Secili plak tė kishte 3-4 ēekiē (ndihmėsa) qė do tė ndanin ngatėrresat, vrasjet pėr hakmarrje,etj. 10. Po tė vritej ndokush, plaku, i cili nuk ishte i armatosur, vendoste qė vrasėsi tė pushkatohej, t'i digjej shtėpia, familja tė largohej pėr njė kohė tė caktuar, ose t'i priteshin pemėt dhe t'i merrej toka, 11.Nė rast lufte kundėr turqve, ndalohej ēdo lloj hakmarrje, 12.Ndalohej pushka nė gra, tė rinj dhe pleq tė paarmatosur. Fshatra tė Nėntė Maleve ishin : Mali i Reēit: Tharku, Kraj-Reēi, Bardhaj-Reē dhe mė vonė Gjurrė-Reē, Zall-Reē, Draj-Reē, Ndėrshene, Tejmollė; Mali i Dardhės: Tartaj, Lashkizė, Merskane dhe mė vonė edhe Soricė, Zalldardhė, Lugjaj, Shenllesh, Nezhaj; Mali i Ēidhnės: Grykė-Nokė, Ēidhėn e Poshtme, Marēaj ose Krrash, Arras, Sinė e Poshtme, Sinė e Epėrme, Lazrej dhe mė vonė edhe Mustafej, Fushė-Alie, Laēes, Blliēe, Rrenxė, Kukaj, Kastriot, Kandėrr, Brest i Epėrm, Kodėr-Leshe; Mali i Muhurrit: Bulaē, Shorokan, Hurdhė-Muhurr, Sqath dhe mė vonė edhe Fushė-Muhurr,Vajmėdhenj, Kishavec, Rethkalaj, Vakuf; Mali i Luznisė: Arape, Lishan, Hotesh dhe mė vonė edhe Katund i ri, Selane; Mali i Katėr-Grykėve: Lukan, Selishtė, Kacni, Katundi i Vjetėr i Murrės, Qafė-Murrė; Mali i Grykės sė Madhe: Strikēan, Sopot, Zerqan, Valikardhė, Peladhi, Godvi, Krajkė, Sofraēan dhe mė vonė edhe Mali i Grykės sė Vogėl: Gjurras, Mazhicė, Topojan, Stushan, Zogjaj, Bllacė, Kovashicė, Homesh, Shupenzė dhe mė vonė edhe Boēevė, Vlashaj, Gjoricė, Ēerenecė, Viēisht; Mali i Bulqizės: Koēaj, Ēiraj, Dushaj, Vajkal, Dragu dhe mė vonė edhe Fushė-Bulqizė. Pastaj ndodhėn kėto ndryshime: Katundi Thark dhe katundi Hurdhė i Reēit u kthyen nė lagje tė katundit Bardhaj-Reē, Katundi Lazrej nė Ēidhėn u kthye nė lagje tė katundit Mustafe, katundi Merskan i Dardhės u kthye nė lagje tė katundit Lashkizė, Katundi i Vjetėr i Katėr-Grykėve u kthye nė katundin Qafė-Murrė, katundi Ēiraj u kthye nė lagje tė katundit Koēaj. Malet e Dibrės, qė nga formimi i tyre e deri nė vitin 1910 nuk janė pėrfshirė nė ndonjė regjistėr turk, nuk kanė dhėnė ushtarė, nuk kanė paguar taksa.[10] Nė malet e Dibrės nuk ka pasur bajraktar nė kuptimin e plotė tė fjalės pėrveē atij tė Lurės, sepse Lura ishte Bajrak dhe jo Mal. Fjala bajrak nė njė kuptim ėshtė e njėvleftshme me fjalėn flamur, ndėrsa fjala bajraktar ėshtė e njėvleftshme me fjalėn flamurmbajtės. Por bajraqet dhe bajraktarėt pėrdoren si emėrtime organizimesh dhe udhėheqjesh tė krahinave tė caktuara. Bajraqet ishin forma organizimi luftarak tė njė njėsie tė caktuar territoriale. Bajraqet ishin forma tė caktuara qeverisje, tė ngjashme me ato tė Maleve, si edhe grupime tė caktuara forcash tė organizuara mbi bazė fisi, fshati a krahine. Pas luftės, bajraktarėt nuk kishin mė emėr dhe fuqi. Itifaku i miratuar nė kuvendin e shekullit XV kishte si bosht: 1.Luftė kundėr Turqisė, 2.Ruajtja e gjuhės dhe e zakoneve tė Malit, 3.Mosdhėnia haraē e tė dhjeta Turqisė dhe 4. Mosthyerja e "Besės sė Maleve" Nė ēdo katund me tre fise ēdo kryetar mblidhte fisin e vet, ku diskutoheshin ēėshtjet themelore tė besės: 1. Pas sinjalit pėr luftė tė gjithė tė armatosurit tė mblidheshin nė njė vend, qė ishte i pėrcaktuar pėr ēdo fshat, 2.Armėt dhe fishekėt tė pėrballoheshin nga gjithsecili, 3. Nė rast kushtrimi tė lihej ēdo punė, 4. Nė rast dasme lejohej tė qėndronte vetėm dhėndėri, 5. Nė rast mortje lejoheshin tė bėnin varrimin vetėm 4 vetė, 6. Kėta (dhėndėri dhe ata qė lejoheshin pėr varrim) tė nesėrmen e ditės sė dasmės ose tė mortjes duhet tė niseshin menjėherė nė luftė. 7. Po u dėgjua zėri i daulles ose tri tė shtėna pushke pushohej ēdo lloj hakmarrje nė mes fiseve, 8. Atij qė hakmerrej brenda kėsaj kohe i digjej shtėpia, i merrej bagėtia dhe familja i shpėrngulej me detyrim nga fshati, 9. Ai, qė bėhej hafije (spiun) tek turqit a pėrkrahėsit e tyre dėnohej, duke zbatuar pikėn e tetė.[11] I pari i fisit takohej me kryetarėt e fiseve tė tjera dhe zgjidhnin pėrfaqėsuesin e fshatit, qė do tė pėrfaqėsonte Malin nė Kuvendin e Pėrgjithshėm tė Maleve. Nėntė Malet nuk kishin tė parė, por drejtoheshin nga njė kėshill kolegjial, qė vendoste unanimisht, ose jo, pėr veprime tė caktuara. Nė mbledhjet e kėtij kėshilli nderi i takonte mė tė largėtit. Ky merrte kryet e berrit nė sofėr dhe zinte kryet e vendit nė kuvend. Pėrfaqėsuesit ndaheshin nė pleq qė formonin pleqėsinė dhe nė tė parė, tė cilėt formonin parinė. Pėr t'u bėrė plak duhet tė ishe i drejtė dhe i menēur, tė kishe dhėnė prova pėr zgjuarsi dhe drejtėsi nė fis, fshat dhe nė krahinė, tė ishe njohės i mirė i ligjeve tė pashkruara tė Maleve, i Kanunit tė Lekės. Formula e betimit tė plakut ishte: "Kushdo qoftė ai qė then besėn e fisit, katundit a tė Maleve, qoftė edhe fėmija im, do tė gjykohet me drejtėsi". Kjo formulė ėshtė pėrdor deri nė vitin 1912. Disa shtėpi pleqsh mbetėn pleq tė pėrhershėm, si Noka e Lusha nė Ēidhėn, Troci nė Reē etj. Nga Fatos DACI (Pjesė nga libri “Enciklopedia e Dibrės” [1] ." H.Lleshi "Vite,njerėz, ngjarje" fq. F.9 [2] Libri “Haki Sharofi dhe vepra e tij”, fq.90 [3] Nazif Dokle:”Kukėsi” (Vėshtrim enciklopedik), fq.15. [4] Rakip Sinani: Libri “Dibra dhe dibranėt nė faqet e historisė”, fq.41 [5] H.Lleshi "Vite,njerėz, ngjarje" fq.9 dhe "Dibra e dibranėt",fq.38 [6] H.Lleshi "Vite,njerėz, ngjarje" fq. 9 dhe "Dibra e dibranėt",fq.38 [7] Xhelal Ndreu "Nuk ka qetėsi nė Lisivalle" fq. 34-48 [8] Haziz Ndreu, "Dibra nė udhėn e historisė",fq.16-18 [9] Hazis Ndreu, "Dibra nė udhėn e historisė", fq.16-18 [10] Hazis Ndreu, "Dibra nė udhėn e historisė", fq.33-42 [11] Hazis Ndreu, "Dibra nė udhėn e historisė", fq.49-50

Do you have any information on the village of Ternova? Kanchov mentions that this village is inhabited by Slavic speakers, but is that actually the truth?

Korabi
01-04-2021, 07:18 PM
Do you have any information on the village of Ternova? Kanchov mentions that this village is inhabited by Slavic speakers, but is that actually the truth?

Kanchov probably lied or distorted the truth, considering a good amount of what he reported contradicts others around d the same time period. Though, Ternova is in Western Golloborda and this area forms the part of Golloborde that only speaks Albanian. Of course in the early medieval this could have been different.

Sorcelow
01-04-2021, 07:22 PM
Kanchov probably lied or distorted the truth, considering a good amount of what he reported contradicts others around d the same time period. Though, Ternova is in Western Golloborda and this area forms the part of Golloborde that only speaks Albanian. Of course in the early medieval this could have been different.

Do you have any other examples of his errors regarding the villages of the region?

Kelmendasi
01-04-2021, 07:39 PM
Do you have any other examples of his errors regarding the villages of the region?
In his works regarding Dibra, that were compiled in 1900, he states that the village of Borovė at this time was entirely populated by a population of 280 Orthodox Christian Slavs - whom he refers to as "Bulgarians" though we know that this identification is actually very rare even among the bilingual villages. However, in the reports of Bulgarian historian Yordan Ivanov that were compiled in 1916 but published in 1925, this village was solely inhabited by a population of 716 Albanians, most certainly of the Islamic faith. In my opinion it is virtually impossible for a population to go through such a quick and intense ethno-religious change within a space of 16 years, especially for a village which has no knowledge of a bilingual or Slavic-speaking past.

Sorcelow
01-04-2021, 07:58 PM
In his works regarding Dibra, that were compiled in 1900, he states that the village of Borovė at this time was entirely populated by a population of 280 Orthodox Christian Slavs - whom he refers to as "Bulgarians" though we know that this identification is actually very rare even among the bilingual villages. However, in the reports of Bulgarian historian Yordan Ivanov that were compiled in 1916 but published in 1925, this village was solely inhabited by a population of 716 Albanians, most certainly of the Islamic faith. In my opinion it is virtually impossible for a population to go through such a quick and intense ethno-religious change within a space of 16 years, especially for a village which has no knowledge of a bilingual or Slavic-speaking past.

Since Borova had marital relations with nearby Slavic speaking villages, I would imagine that at least part of the population in the early 20th century was bilingual. Would you agree?

Kelmendasi
01-04-2021, 08:07 PM
Since Borova had marital relations with nearby Slavic speaking villages, I would imagine that at least part of the population in the early 20th century was bilingual. Would you agree?
Well my maternal side is from this village, and all the elders I have asked state that there is no memory of Macedonian being spoken in the village by any of the households. I think that if there indeed were households that also spoke Macedonian up until the 20th century, there would be memory of this. As for the marital relations, from what I have heard it was more a case of Albanian women from Borova marrying into bilingual households from Steblevė or Klenjė. Naturally these brides would in turn learn the local Macedonian dialect that was also spoken in these villages alongside Albanian. And it should be noted that the language of communication between the Albanian-speaking villages and the bilingual ones was Albanian for the majority of cases. Brides were mostly taken from nearby Zabzun or Fushė Studėn which are Albanian-speaking, though marriages within the village itself were also common.

td120
01-04-2021, 10:42 PM
Do you have any information on the village of Ternova? Kanchov mentions that this village is inhabited by Slavic speakers, but is that actually the truth?

Ternovo was recorded as 101 houses with 530 Albanian Gheg inhabitants in the 1897 census (pg.41 of the document/page 29 scan) :

http://periodica.fzf.ukim.edu.mk/godzb/GZ21(1969)/GZ21.06.%20%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0 %B2-%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%98%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D 0%B8,%20%D0%A5.%20-%20%D0%95%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%20%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BF%D 0%BE%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%82%20%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0% D1%82%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BA%D0%B8%20 %D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B4%20%D0%B 7%D0%B0%20%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0% BD%D0%B8%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE%20%D0%B2%D0%BE%20%D0%B1 %D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BE%D 1%82%20%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B5%D1%82%20%D0% BE%D0%B4%201897.pdf

D.Gadjanov writes in 1916 that the inhabitants of Borovo and Zabzun are actually Albanized (and he duly lists them as "Albanians", 716 and 1142 people resp.). At that point probably the only language the locals used was Albanian.

Kelmendasi
01-04-2021, 11:29 PM
D.Gadjanov writes in 1916 that the inhabitants of Borovo and Zabzun are actually Albanized (despite that he duly lists them as "Albanians", 716 and 1142 people resp.). At that point probably the only language the locals used was Albanian.
On what basis does he claim that the populations of these two villages were originally Slavic-speaking but had gone through Albanization? From the Ottoman defter of 1467, we know that there was an Orthodox Christian presence in these villages and that the faith was likely propagated through Slavic influence, this is suggested through anthroponyms which are either typically Orthodox or show an Orthodox-Slavic connection such as: Petko, Radec, Mihal., etc. However, there is also a presence of typical Albanian anthroponyms such as Lekė and Gjergj, as well as last names that indicate origin from Albanian-speaking regions such as Ēermenika, and even last names that are clearly of Albanian etymology but had undergone Slavic influence such as the case of Mjekrimadhoviqi (compound of mjekėr or "beard" and madh or "big" with the Slavic suffix -viq/-vić). In my opinion this suggests that the population of these villages was either an Albanian one that had been receiving significant Slavic influence as a result of their Orthodox faith, or that they were Albanian-speaking but were under the process of Slavicization.

In my opinion it is possible that after the 15th century the populations of these villages had become Slavicized, and that they were again Albanized as a result of Albanian influence or additional migration into the region from nearby Albanian-speaking ethnographic regions - which is suggested from oral traditions which state regions such as Mati as places of origin. However, this has its limitations. The consolidation of Ottoman power after the 15th century in my opinion cut off additional Orthodox-Slavic influence as a new Islamic political power had been established in the region. And I see it as extremely unlikely for a population to have entirely changed ethno-linguistic and religious identity in under a century and still have no memory of this happening. If Albanization did take place, it for sure was before the 19th or 20th centuries. There's also the case of much of the older populations of these villages having migrated away during the earlier centuries and then having been resettled by Albanians that had arrived from the neighbouring areas.

As for the genetic side of things, so far there are three results from Borova and two from Zabzun as far as I know. Two out of three samples from Borovė are E-V13 (one is my maternal relative and is CTS1273*) whilst the other sample is J2b-FT29003. One from Zabzun has tested as E1a-M132 whilst the other has tested as J2a-M410. There is also a Balkan Turk from North Macedonia who has tested as R1b-Z2705 and claims origin from Zabzun.

Korabi
01-04-2021, 11:53 PM
As for the genetic side of things, so far there are three results from Borova and two from Zabzun as far as I know. Two out of three samples from Borovė are E-V13 (one is my maternal relative and is CTS1273*) whilst the other sample is J2b-FT29003. One from Zabzun has tested as E1a-M132 whilst the other has tested as J2a-M410. There is also a Balkan Turk from North Macedonia who has tested as R1b-Z2705 and claims origin from Zabzun.

Theres also 2 from Ternove not recently related that are E-V13.

td120
01-05-2021, 12:18 AM
Kelmendasi,
It is literally one single line in his 1916 reports with no further details for his reasons.

God knows how it was, the dynamics at one place may not necessarily resemble the situation in others.


BTW the guy with ancestry from Zabzun it must be A.Y. , his only match was the 2705 kit I manage.

Here is an interesting piece :

Мемоарната "Предвестници на бурята", Петър Манджуков , спомен от пандиза Куршумли-Хан :

Рифат-ага беше млад човек, почти момче, на 19-20 години, рус, със сини
очи, с още ненаболи мустаци, тънък, пъргав, весел; той беше арнаутин от с. Св.
Петка, в басейна на р. Треска. Освен арнаутски, не знаеше нито дума турски
или македонски. Всякога в добро душевно разположение, постоянно пееше,
но не арнаутски, а македонски песни, без да разбира нещо от думите на тия
песни. Когато го запитваха по арнаутски какви са тия песни, той отговаряше,
че такива са песните на тяхното село. Понеже не знаеше смисъла на думите,
бъркаше родовете, числата, падежите и окончанията им. Така, неговата любима песен беше:
He плачи, стара бабо, не жали – пуно ти е търло говеда!
която той пееше така:
He плачи, стари бабо, не жалиш – пуно ти е търло говедо!…

Rifat-aga was a young man, almost a boy, 19-20 years old, blond, with blue
eyes, with not yet sore mustache, thin, agile, cheerful; he was an Arnaut from the village of St.
Petka, in the basin of the river Treska. Apart from Arnaut, he did not know a word of Turkish
or Macedonian. Always in a good mood, constantly singing,
but not Arnaut, but Macedonian songs, without understanding any of the words of the songs. When asked in Arnaut what these songs were, he replied,
that such are the songs of their village. Because he did not know the meaning of the words,
he confused gender, numbers, cases, and endings. So, his favorite song was:
He плачи, стара бабо, не жали – пуно ти е търло говеда!
which he was singing like:
He плачи, стари бабо, не жалиш – пуно ти е търло говедо!…

Kelmendasi
01-05-2021, 12:46 AM
Kelmendasi,
It is literally one single line in his 1916 reports with no further details for his reasons.

God knows how it was, the dynamics at one place may not necessarily resemble the situation in others.


BTW the guy with ancestry from Zabzun it must be A.Y. , his only match was the 2705 kit I manage.

Here is an interesting piece :

Мемоарната "Предвестници на бурята", Петър Манджуков , спомен от пандиза Куршумли-Хан :

Рифат-ага беше млад човек, почти момче, на 19-20 години, рус, със сини
очи, с още ненаболи мустаци, тънък, пъргав, весел; той беше арнаутин от с. Св.
Петка, в басейна на р. Треска. Освен арнаутски, не знаеше нито дума турски
или македонски. Всякога в добро душевно разположение, постоянно пееше,
но не арнаутски, а македонски песни, без да разбира нещо от думите на тия
песни. Когато го запитваха по арнаутски какви са тия песни, той отговаряше,
че такива са песните на тяхното село. Понеже не знаеше смисъла на думите,
бъркаше родовете, числата, падежите и окончанията им. Така, неговата любима песен беше:
He плачи, стара бабо, не жали – пуно ти е търло говеда!
която той пееше така:
He плачи, стари бабо, не жалиш – пуно ти е търло говедо!…

Rifat-aga was a young man, almost a boy, 19-20 years old, blond, with blue
eyes, with not yet sore mustache, thin, agile, cheerful; he was an Arnaut from the village of St.
Petka, in the basin of the river Treska. Apart from Arnaut, he did not know a word of Turkish
or Macedonian. Always in a good mood, constantly singing,
but not Arnaut, but Macedonian songs, without understanding any of the words of the songs. When asked in Arnaut what these songs were, he replied,
that such are the songs of their village. Because he did not know the meaning of the words,
he confused gender, numbers, cases, and endings. So, his favorite song was:
He плачи, стара бабо, не жали – пуно ти е търло говеда!
which he was singing like:
He плачи, стари бабо, не жалиш – пуно ти е търло говедо!…

Thanks for the clarification. I just wanted to state my opinion on the matter of identity change in these villages, my bad if it seemed as some kind of rebuttal aimed at you. As a whole, it's very hard to say how things were for sure, historically identity has been rather fluid throughout the Balkans and especially in these frontier regions.

Yes I believe it is him, he's from the village of D'lga which is located just to the south of Kumanovo and belongs to the R1b-Z2705>BY147912 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY147912/) cluster. This cluster as a whole has a TMRCA of ~1,500 ybp and majority belong to the Y182782 subgroup with a TMRCA of ~1,250 ybp. He could be under this cluster or form a branch parallel to it.

eastara
01-05-2021, 02:48 AM
This happens also in Greece now, when singing "Thracian Greek" songs without understanding the words.

dosas
01-05-2021, 06:12 AM
This happens also in Greece now, when singing "Thracian Greek" songs without understanding the words.

I am not sure what you are implying with this comment. The Greek Thracian songs have very clear pronounciation and accents and as far as I know none of them is in Bulgarian.

Can you provide an example to support your comment on ethnography?

eastara
01-05-2021, 08:25 AM
It happened with some friends visiting a Greek village. They were dancing 'Horo' and singing something Bulgarians could understand. When asking what they are singing about they replied they don,t know, but that what they learned from their grandparents. I am not talking about the official Greek folklore, which is largely author songs composed recently like by Theodorakis.

dosas
01-05-2021, 06:17 PM
It happened with some friends visiting a Greek village. They were dancing 'Horo' and singing something Bulgarians could understand. When asking what they are singing about they replied they don,t know, but that what they learned from their grandparents. I am not talking about the official Greek folklore, which is largely author songs composed recently like by Theodorakis.


Your anecdotal doesn't match the ethnography of the area and its population I am afraid, and I don't understand why you mention Theodorakis, the Eastern Rumelian/Thracian Greek folklore is very distinct and popular in its own right, it doesn't need to be "official"-ised, whatever that may mean in your head. But if you happen to come across some real examples of such songs sung and performed in Bulgarian that the locals sing and dance and are unable to understand their etymology (I am not talking about loan words), please do share.

I am an avid collector of Greek Thracian/East Rumelian music, I'd love to hear these invisible songs you and your friends only know about.

trdbr1234
01-05-2021, 07:35 PM
On what basis does he claim that the populations of these two villages were originally Slavic-speaking but had gone through Albanization? From the Ottoman defter of 1467, we know that there was an Orthodox Christian presence in these villages and that the faith was likely propagated through Slavic influence, this is suggested through anthroponyms which are either typically Orthodox or show an Orthodox-Slavic connection such as: Petko, Radec, Mihal., etc. However, there is also a presence of typical Albanian anthroponyms such as Lekė and Gjergj, as well as last names that indicate origin from Albanian-speaking regions such as Ēermenika, and even last names that are clearly of Albanian etymology but had undergone Slavic influence such as the case of Mjekrimadhoviqi (compound of mjekėr or "beard" and madh or "big" with the Slavic suffix -viq/-vić). In my opinion this suggests that the population of these villages was either an Albanian one that had been receiving significant Slavic influence as a result of their Orthodox faith, or that they were Albanian-speaking but were under the process of Slavicization.

In my opinion it is possible that after the 15th century the populations of these villages had become Slavicized, and that they were again Albanized as a result of Albanian influence or additional migration into the region from nearby Albanian-speaking ethnographic regions - which is suggested from oral traditions which state regions such as Mati as places of origin. However, this has its limitations. The consolidation of Ottoman power after the 15th century in my opinion cut off additional Orthodox-Slavic influence as a new Islamic political power had been established in the region. And I see it as extremely unlikely for a population to have entirely changed ethno-linguistic and religious identity in under a century and still have no memory of this happening. If Albanization did take place, it for sure was before the 19th or 20th centuries. There's also the case of much of the older populations of these villages having migrated away during the earlier centuries and then having been resettled by Albanians that had arrived from the neighbouring areas.

As for the genetic side of things, so far there are three results from Borova and two from Zabzun as far as I know. Two out of three samples from Borovė are E-V13 (one is my maternal relative and is CTS1273*) whilst the other sample is J2b-FT29003. One from Zabzun has tested as E1a-M132 whilst the other has tested as J2a-M410. There is also a Balkan Turk from North Macedonia who has tested as R1b-Z2705 and claims origin from Zabzun.

Sadikaj states that the -vic in surnames were added by the people conducting the census. Mihal isn't associated with Slavic speakers. It is a generic Orthodox name.

What I find interesting is the frequency of -aj surnames among the population. From the families Sadikaj mentioned, it seems as though the Orthodox population holds an equal to or greater frequency of -aj surnames. What is also interesting is that Trebisht seems to have the highest frequency. As I understand -aj surnames is that it is a recent phenomenon of the last 200/300 years and that it necessitates the Albanian language. This does imply that the direction of language shift has gone from Albanian -> Bulgarian in the last 200-300 years.

What I also find interesting is that this coincides with the Islamization of the wider Diber region. There isn't a good reason why "Malet" of Dibra converted and I haven't read anything that explains why they converted. For one, the existence of "Malet e Dibres" was Ottoman resistance and it was this same principle that held even after their conversion. Ottomans never had influence over this region to explain it through pressure or persecution, as was the case in some other regions. I personaly think the Islamization process is key to understanding the Albanian nationalist movements of the period as well as the Bulgarization among the Orthodox population, which the majority of the population still seemed to be at this time.

Kelmendasi
01-05-2021, 08:09 PM
I've come across an interesting paper titled: Migration Movements of the Macedonian Population of Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo within Albanian Borders and Abroad-Contemporary Changes (https://www.academia.edu/30520446/Migration_movements_of_the_Macedonian_population_o f_Mala_Prespa_and_Golo_Brdo_within_Albanian_border s_and_abroad_contemporary_changes). And a couple of interesting points were made in regards to movements away from these regions, though I think the title is a little misleading since in regions such as Golloborda or Golo Brdo as it is referred to in the paper also have an Albanian population as well as a Macedonian-speaking one.

"Based on available written data and field research we can conclude that patterns of the founding and dislocation of certain settlements are a common characteristic of both regions. There is hardly any settlement that has not been dislocated from its original position at least once in its existence. The most common reasons for dislocation and/or group migration were connected to natural disasters, floods, water shortages, infectious diseases, and frequent hostile attacks. Confirmation of such events can be found in written documents, oral testimonies, and material remaining from former settlements and preserved toponyms... we can follow the migration patterns of the population from Mala Prespa or Golo Brdo through three key historical periods: from the period of Ottoman rule until 1948; the period 1948-1991; and the period after 1991."

"Migration movements during the period of Ottoman rule were present in both regions and distinguished by their own specific characteristics. Internal migrations were present in the wider regions within the Empire. The main destinations for the migrant populations from Mala Prespa were Bitola, Florina and Korcha, while the main destinations for the population from Golo Brdo were Tirana and Debar. Important migrant destinations for the population from both regions included Thessaloniki, Sofia, Istanbul and other cities."

"From the 15th to the 19th century, other than the migration movements towards the already mentioned destinations, there were also large-scale permanent migration movements from Albania and western Macedonia towards Bulgaria... These migrations are confirmed by abundant preserved data and numerous toponyms referring to "Arnauti". One example is the village of Arbanasi, located near the city of Veliko Trnovo in Bulgaria, inhabited by migrants from Albania and western Macedonia. In many cases this population was also called "Debarlii" meaning 'the population coming from the wider Debar district'. Numerous migrants from these regions also settled in the city of Varna... During the 19th century a large number of periodic migrants, known as 'dulgeri', worked as builders in Serbia and especially in Belgrade. Like the aforementioned migrants, they were also known and identified as "Arnauti", "Debarlii", "Rekalii", "Gogi, etc."

"One other type of migration more common for Golo Brdo is the so-called "wedding" migration that involves the female population from the region. Namely, a large number of girls from this region engaged in marriages with Albanians or Macedonians from Macedonia where they permanently migrate... They are directed towards various places such as Tetovo and Debar, but mainly to rural areas in Macedonia."

Korabi
01-05-2021, 08:54 PM
I've come across an interesting paper titled: Migration Movements of the Macedonian Population of Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo within Albanian Borders and Abroad-Contemporary Changes (https://www.academia.edu/30520446/Migration_movements_of_the_Macedonian_population_o f_Mala_Prespa_and_Golo_Brdo_within_Albanian_border s_and_abroad_contemporary_changes). And a couple of interesting points were made in regards to movements away from these regions, though I think the title is a little misleading since in regions such as Golloborda or Golo Brdo as it is referred to in the paper also have an Albanian population as well as a Macedonian-speaking one.

"Based on available written data and field research we can conclude that patterns of the founding and dislocation of certain settlements are a common characteristic of both regions. There is hardly any settlement that has not been dislocated from its original position at least once in its existence. The most common reasons for dislocation and/or group migration were connected to natural disasters, floods, water shortages, infectious diseases, and frequent hostile attacks. Confirmation of such events can be found in written documents, oral testimonies, and material remaining from former settlements and preserved toponyms... we can follow the migration patterns of the population from Mala Prespa or Golo Brdo through three key historical periods: from the period of Ottoman rule until 1948; the period 1948-1991; and the period after 1991."

"Migration movements during the period of Ottoman rule were present in both regions and distinguished by their own specific characteristics. Internal migrations were present in the wider regions within the Empire. The main destinations for the migrant populations from Mala Prespa were Bitola, Florina and Korcha, while the main destinations for the population from Golo Brdo were Tirana and Debar. Important migrant destinations for the population from both regions included Thessaloniki, Sofia, Istanbul and other cities."

"From the 15th to the 19th century, other than the migration movements towards the already mentioned destinations, there were also large-scale permanent migration movements from Albania and western Macedonia towards Bulgaria... These migrations are confirmed by abundant preserved data and numerous toponyms referring to "Arnauti". One example is the village of Arbanasi, located near the city of Veliko Trnovo in Bulgaria, inhabited by migrants from Albania and western Macedonia. In many cases this population was also called "Debarlii" meaning 'the population coming from the wider Debar district'. Numerous migrants from these regions also settled in the city of Varna... During the 19th century a large number of periodic migrants, known as 'dulgeri', worked as builders in Serbia and especially in Belgrade. Like the aforementioned migrants, they were also known and identified as "Arnauti", "Debarlii", "Rekalii", "Gogi, etc."

"One other type of migration more common for Golo Brdo is the so-called "wedding" migration that involves the female population from the region. Namely, a large number of girls from this region engaged in marriages with Albanians or Macedonians from Macedonia where they permanently migrate... They are directed towards various places such as Tetovo and Debar, but mainly to rural areas in Macedonia."

Interesting. I know the oral legend of Selman Stafa has the governor of Shkoder insulting him and his friend from Ternove. He called them "Gog Dibres" not sure what Gog/Gogi is supposed to mean. These terms Debarlii, Rekalii and Gogi were also used for those who went to Arbanasi in Bulgaria?

td120
01-05-2021, 09:36 PM
"There is hardly any settlement that has not been dislocated from its original position at least once in its existence."

Do you find this a bit exaggerated?


A bit off : Concerning the "movement of the people of Gorna Gorica in 1924" :

From Meri Stojanova's material:

At the same time, the migration of people from Mala Prespa essentially retained
the same directions. One strong migration wave occurred in 1924 when the whole population
from the village of Upper Gorica left their village and moved to the Kingdom of Yugoslavia
due to a misunderstanding with the local bey. The Yugoslavian government considered them
to be Albanians and sent them to Kosovska Mitrovica. When they responded that they were
Macedonians and not Albanians they were returned to Macedonia and settled in Kavadarci,
Rosoman, Negotino and other places.

What happened (this case seems to be very well documented) :


When the Ottoman
Empire still controlled the region, the residents of the village Gorna Gorica started a legal battle against Malik Bey Frasheri, who claimed that he
the village owned his chiflik. Despite the fact that the Bitola Vilayet Court
ruled that the residents of Gorna Gorica own the village land, the forests
and the pastures, at the end of 1924, when Mala Prespa was included within
the borders of Albania, Malik Bey Frasheri renewed his claims on the land
on which Gorna Gorica was built. In 1928, Malik Bey Frasheri seized the
village forests and the pastures. On August 30th, 1932, the villagers were
notified that according to a court ruling, the owner of the village, including
all its houses, yards and fields is Malik Bey and that they were obliged to
leave their homes in three days, and the harvested crops and the household
belongings were to be confiscated by the state to cover the legal expenses
(Eldarov, 2000).
....................
After the expulsion of the residents of Gorna Gorica, Malik Bey
unsuccessfully tried to find people to settle in the empty village. In a
confidential report of the Bulgarian Legation in Tirana from June 12th,
1933, it is stated that „Dr. Basho and his father-in-law Malik will not gain
anything by the seizure of the chiflik, because they cannot find villagers,
who would settle in Gorica“ (Bulgarian Central State Archive, f. 176K,
i. 5, a.u. 663, p. 153). Three years later, Malik Bey once again tried to
settle several Albanian families from the villages of Zvezda, Poleni, and
Shenger. They, however, also did not pay anything to the bey and they
were expelled. This is one of the few cases from the interwar period when
attempts were made to settle Albanians in the mountain regions where
the population was entirely Bulgarian. After he banished the Albanians,
Malik bey was forced to invite villagers from the neighbouring Bulgarian
villages in Mala Prespa to settle in the emptied village of Gorna Gorica.
This was the second time he tried to resettle people in the village. The
current residents of Gorna Gorica are primarily descended from the village of Shulin (Duma, 2007).

More on this case on pages 90-93 :
https://www.academia.edu/43953110/BULGARIANS_IN_ALBANIA_THE_LONG_PATH_TO_RECOGNITION

The Petition by the mayor and the elders of the village of Gorna Gorica is on page 247, Facsimile 8 .

Kelmendasi
01-05-2021, 09:47 PM
Interesting. I know the oral legend of Selman Stafa has the governor of Shkoder insulting him and his friend from Ternove. He called them "Gog Dibres" not sure what Gog/Gogi is supposed to mean. These terms Debarlii, Rekalii and Gogi were also used for those who went to Arbanasi in Bulgaria?
I have asked my mother about this a while ago and from what I recall she stated that it was a very old word that is rarely used today and she herself was unsure what it actually meant. It seems that in the context she has heard it, it was used as a shortened version of gogol which is the Albanian word or name used for a kind of mythical monster or creature in Albanian folklore similar to the kukudh and lugat.

I have however come across the word gogė and according to the paper (http://www.doktoratura.unitir.edu.al/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Teze-doktorature-Irda-Dervishi-2019.pdf) I found it on, there are three main definitions: 1) Vlach, 2) craftsman or professional, and 3) lazy. Given the fact that the people of Golloborda were renown craftsmen and builders, I'd expect that it is connected to the second definition in regards to the people of Golloborda or Dibra.

Korabi
01-05-2021, 10:19 PM
I have asked my mother about this a while ago and from what I recall she stated that it was a very old word that is rarely used today and she herself was unsure what it actually meant. It seems that in the context she has heard it, it was used as a shortened version of gogol which is the Albanian word or name used for a kind of mythical monster or creature in Albanian folklore similar to the kukudh and lugat.

I have however come across the word gogė and according to the paper (http://www.doktoratura.unitir.edu.al/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Teze-doktorature-Irda-Dervishi-2019.pdf) I found it on, there are three main definitions: 1) Vlach, 2) craftsman or professional, and 3) lazy. Given the fact that the people of Golloborda were renown craftsmen and builders, I'd expect that it is connected to the second definition in regards to the people of Golloborda or Dibra.

Interesring. Yea you may be right. Perhaps it does come from gogol. Per the legend with Selman Stafa, it was used as an insult. I imagine being a craftsmen wouldn't be very insulting. Perhaps then it would come down to the last 2 (vlach or lazy). More likely maybe the monster/lazy meaning when used against Selman and his companion. Its essentially what coaxed him to kill the governor of Shkoder when he raised his whip to strike him.

Not sure if there's any connection. Gog is also used to refer to the biblical Gog and Magog. They were seen as giants/monsters amongst Britons, and as monsters by the Muslim world. Though, a more grounded description believes this refers to the tribes north of the Caucasus. Some have tried to link them with various groups from tribes of Asia to Slavs like Russia, Huns, Mongols and Avars, Khazars etc.

broder
01-05-2021, 10:51 PM
Goga/Goge meant Vlah/Cincar, at least in Kosove. Mark Krasniqi mentions them on his entry about Rahovec.

Kelmendasi
01-05-2021, 10:54 PM
Interesring. Yea you may be right. Perhaps it does come from gogol. Per the legend with Selman Stafa, it was used as an insult. I imagine being a craftsmen wouldn't be very insulting. Perhaps then it would come down to the last 2 (vlach or lazy). More likely maybe the monster/lazy meaning when used against Selman and his companion. Its essentially what coaxed him to kill the governor of Shkoder when he raised his whip to strike him.

Not sure if there's any connection. Gog is also used to refer to the biblical Gog and Magog. They were seen as giants/monsters amongst Britons, and as monsters by the Muslim world. Though, a more grounded description believes this refers to the tribes north of the Caucasus. Some have tried to link them with various groups from tribes of Asia to Slavs like Russia, Huns, Mongols and Avars, Khazars etc.
I personally am under the impression that it could be related to gogė or "craftsman". The Wali of Shkodra may have used it as an insult to Selman's social background or class, since unlike the Wali, he was a simple builder and not a member of the upper class. Also, as the paper stated, this term was used to refer to the builders that had migrated periodically to Serbia and Bulgaria from Albania.

As for gogol, I have seen some theorize that it could be related to the Mongols or various other peoples that ravaged Europe and the Balkans from the Eurasian steppe, but so far I haven't been able to find any academic sources that provide an etymology. Could possibly be linked to Gog and Magog, hard to say for certain.

Korabi
01-05-2021, 11:08 PM
I personally am under the impression that it could be related to gogė or "craftsman". The Wali of Shkodra may have used it as an insult to Selman's social background or class, since unlike the Wali, he was a simple builder and not a member of the upper class. Also, as the paper stated, this term was used to refer to the builders that had migrated periodically to Serbia and Bulgaria from Albania.

As for gogol, I have seen some theorize that it could be related to the Mongols or various other peoples that ravaged Europe and the Balkans from the Eurasian steppe, but so far I haven't been able to find any academic sources that provide an etymology. Could possibly be linked to Gog and Magog, hard to say for certain.

When you put it like that it makes alot of sense actually. So perhaps its from goge and not gogol. To lend support to that, I think sometimes when referring to Serbia it could also be including Kosova in reference to migration.

Among the folk of Prizren, they say families from Golloborde migrated to Prizren in the 15th to 16th century and built some of the towns and orthodox churches. Supposedly these were mostly assimilated by Serbs and migrated to Serbia in the 19th/20th century. One family was referred to as Goga. They mentioned the Vlach reference. However, coming from Golloborde and knowing the term also refers to craftsmen,, this is probably the meaning in their case. I may be a little off on the dates. Don't remember it entirely.

Ebizur
01-06-2021, 12:30 AM
As for gogol, I have seen some theorize that it could be related to the Mongols or various other peoples that ravaged Europe and the Balkans from the Eurasian steppe, but so far I haven't been able to find any academic sources that provide an etymology. Could possibly be linked to Gog and Magog, hard to say for certain.42339

There is also a somewhat antiquated phrase in the Japanese language, mukuri kokuri ("googly moogly," "monsters and goblins," [literally] "Mongol[s] and Korean[s]," a phrase used to refer to a supposedly horrific creature or group of creatures in order to scare small children into behaving a certain way), of which the first component, Mukuri, is an old Japanese way of saying "Mongolia"/"Mongol[s]," and the second element is usually identified with 高句麗, an ancient kingdom that occupied parts of southern Manchuria and northern Korea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo) (now usually known as Goguryeo in English publications according to the Korean readings of the Chinese characters, but the same characters also can be read as Gāogōulķ in Mandarin Chinese or as *Kaukuri > Kōkuri or Kokuri in Japanese; note that the short o in Ko for 高 and the ri for 麗 are irregular readings in Japanese, and gōu for 句 and lķ for 麗 with rising tone instead of falling tone are irregular readings in Mandarin Chinese).

Kelmendasi
01-06-2021, 01:09 AM
42339

There is also a somewhat antiquated phrase in the Japanese language, mukuri kokuri ("googly moogly," "monsters and goblins," [literally] "Mongol[s] and Korean[s]," a phrase used to refer to a supposedly horrific creature or group of creatures in order to scare small children into behaving a certain way), of which the first component, Mukuri, is an old Japanese way of saying "Mongolia"/"Mongol[s]," and the second element is usually identified with 高句麗, an ancient kingdom that occupied parts of southern Manchuria and northern Korea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo) (now usually known as Goguryeo in English publications according to the Korean readings of the Chinese characters, but the same characters also can be read as Gāogōulķ in Mandarin Chinese or as *Kaukuri > Kōkuri or Kokuri in Japanese; note that the short o in Ko for 高 and the ri for 麗 are irregular readings in Japanese, and gōu for 句 and lķ for 麗 with rising tone instead of falling tone are irregular readings in Mandarin Chinese).
Very interesting, funnily enough one of the traits of the Albanian gogol is that it also scares little children.

Ebizur
01-06-2021, 03:48 AM
Very interesting, funnily enough one of the traits of the Albanian gogol is that it also scares little children.May Albanian gogol somehow be related to the kukeri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kukeri) of the Bulgarians?

eastara
01-06-2021, 05:09 AM
Your anecdotal doesn't match the ethnography of the area and its population I am afraid, and I don't understand why you mention Theodorakis, the Eastern Rumelian/Thracian Greek folklore is very distinct and popular in its own right, it doesn't need to be "official"-ised, whatever that may mean in your head. But if you happen to come across some real examples of such songs sung and performed in Bulgarian that the locals sing and dance and are unable to understand their etymology (I am not talking about loan words), please do share.

I am an avid collector of Greek Thracian/East Rumelian music, I'd love to hear these invisible songs you and your friends only know about.

This is not anecdotal, but well researched subject. See about the origin of the Kariots in Thrace:

https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8

Носията на кариотите е съвършено българска, с калпака заедно. Мъжете не знаят всички български, но има и жени, които знаят. Пеенето на песни с чужди примесици, напр. с български рефрени, като „вакла Яне!“, показва, че тези гърци отчасти са само погърчени българи; в Кавакли, сега съвършено гръцки, една махала и до днес се нарича Булгар махала. Според топографичната номенклатура, която с малки изключения е съвършено турска, може да се съди, че християнското население и тук е от по-нов произход.

The costume of the karyots is perfectly Bulgarian, with the hat together. Men do not know all Bulgarian, but there are women who do. Singing songs with foreign additions, e.g. with Bulgarian refrains, such as "Vakla Yane!", shows that these Greeks are partly only Greek Bulgarians; in Kavakli, now perfectly Greek, a neighborhood is still called Bulgar mahala . According to the topographic nomenclature, which with few exceptions is completely Turkish, it can be judged that the Christian population here is of more recent origin.

„вакла Яне!“ means "Black-eyed Yana!"

Exercitus
01-06-2021, 04:50 PM
Well, i read some articles concerning the ethnic composition of the areas of today western N.Macedonia and north-western Greece during the end of the XIX century and beginning of the XX century. Kanchov, Milojevic, Kontogonis, Ivanov etc were simply trying to fulfill their Nationalistic-Irredentistic agendas, so please do not take their statistical results for granted, they are quite unreliable, contradictory and nonsensical !!

From this article, page 164: "Бројност, структура и миграции на албанското население според пописите од 1921 и 1931 година – „Арнаути по мајчин јазик"

...According to the mentioned estimate of Jordan Ivanov in 1912 in Polog (Tetovska and Gostivarska Kaza) lived 43 230 Albanians (ъорданъ Ианновъ, Бгалгарти в ъ Македони C, CIV). However, Ivanov's estimate is not entirely accurate because at the expense of the Albanian it increases the number of the Turkish population. In his estimates, a smaller number than the real one is shown by Vasil Kanchov. Relying on unreliable sources Kanchov in many villages such as Slatina, Dobroshte, Kamenjane, Pirok, Bogovinje, Shipkovica and others shows a much smaller population (i.e Albanian) than the real one, compared to the 1913 census of the Serbian authorities. Here are some typical examples. In the statistics of Kanchov village Slatino it is recorded that at the end of the XIX century there were 345 inhabitants, of which 275 Arnauts (i.e Albanian) Muslims. But in 1913 the village had 1,123 inhabitants, and according to Bulgarian statistics from 1916 in Slatina lived 868 Albanians and 37 Bulgarians. In the village of Shipkovica, according to Kanchov, there were 550 Arnauti inhabitans, while in 1913 there were 1,016 inhabitants (Vasil Kinchov, Macedonia, 210, 213; Mil. Ant. Vujacic, Dictionary of places in the liberated areas of Old Serbia, 141; Dimitar G. Gadjanov, "The Muslim population in the newly liberated lands", 266). The data show that the number of Albanians in the indicated villages has decreased because in twenty years the population could not double as in Shipkovica or triple as in Slatina. The Albanian population, as before 1912, represented the majority in Polog even after the establishment of the Serbian government. Statistics from 1913 show that the Albanian population lived in the entire Polog area. Their compact and large villages were located on the vast slopes of Shar Planina and Bukovic, as well as along the foothills of Shar Planina and Suva Gora. In the western part of the valley, the Albanian population was a large homogeneous group. Most of the villages inhabited only by Albanians had about or over 1,000 inhabitants (Pirok, Dobri Dol, Recani, Shipkovica, Cegrane, Kamenjane, Bogovinje, Gradec, Neraste, Zelino) or lived together with Macedonian and rarely with Turkish population. , but they represented the majority as in the villages: Chelopek, Tearce, Debreshe, Dzepciste, Dobroshte and others. (Mil. Ant. Vujacic, Dictionary of Places in the Liberated Areas of Old Serbia, 138–142).

also:
https://www.lithoksou.net/search/label/%CE%9C%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%B4%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%AF%C E%B1.%20%CE%A4%CE%B1%20%CF%87%CF%89%CF%81%CE%B9%CE %AC%20%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82%20%CE%A6%CE%BB%CF%8E%CF%8 1%CE%B9%CE%BD%CE%B1%CF%82

https://www.lithoksou.net/search/label/%CE%9C%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%B4%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%AF%C E%B1.%20%CE%A4%CE%B1%20%CF%87%CF%89%CF%81%CE%B9%CE %AC%20%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82%20%CE%9A%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%8 4%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%AC%CF%82

Exercitus
01-06-2021, 07:38 PM
Now i bought the translated Defter of year 1423, regarding the Veles\Koprulu,(n.m) Kostur\Kastoria,(gr) Kolonje\Erseke (alb) areas during the beginning of the XV century:
"1422-1423 Tarihli Köprülü, Kastorya ve Koluna Vilayetleri Mufassal Defteri"

Actually i wanted to verify what D.Gorgiev had written here in this article:
" Siedlungsverhältnisse im makedonisch-albanischen Grenzgebiet im 15. und 16. Jahrhundert (nach osmanischen Quellen)"

Regarding his interpretation about the amount of Slavic speakers in Albania and the amount of Albanian speakers in Slavic(Bulgarian) inhabited areas west Macedonia & north-west Greece !! As i expected, concerning the aforementioned areas, the incongruences were too obvious. No Macedonian or Bulgarian Historian\Ottomanist had ever mentioned the considerable percentage of Albanian Orthodox in Demir Hisar - Murgashevo area in the basis of the Defter year 1467\68, the precise thing happens also regarding the Kastoria\Kostur area!!!
To be more concrete :
"55. Die Anzahl der Personen mit charakteristischen albanischen Namen, wie Pal, Gjon, Gjin betrug auf dem gesamten Territorium des kazas Kostur nur 23. (Ebd. 75, 79, 80, 95).

"55. The number of people with characteristic Albanian names such as Pal, Gjon, Gjin was only 23 in the entire territory of the kazas Kostur (ibid. 75, 79, 80, 95).

Well i counted more than 56 Gjin, Gjon, Gjergj in the kaza of Kostur ...without counting the other Albanian Onomastics Lesh, Deda\Dida, Menkshe, Liko\Lika, Progon, Bardh\Bardho, Duka, Balo, Zgur\Skurr, Tole etc also without counting those hundred Albanian Orthodox with typical Christian names such as: Nikola, Dimitri, Petro, Jorgji, Kosta, Dhimo, Pavel etc etc
https://www.lithoksou.net/search/label/%CE%9C%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%B4%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%AF%C E%B1.%20%CE%A4%CE%B1%20%CF%87%CF%89%CF%81%CE%B9%CE %AC%20%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82%20%CE%9A%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%8 4%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%AC%CF%82

Not only, Kanchov, Milojevic etc have labelled this villages as Slavic Muslims: Gėrleni, Prapacka e Poshtme, Prapacka e Siperme, Tėrstika, Shėnedjelli\Sveti Nedela etc meanwhile that the inhabitans of this villages which emigrated in Albania after 1913 and 1923 declared themselfs as Albanian-speakers Muslims in this book - Fatos Mero Rrapaj (1995). Fjalori Onomastik i Epirit. - are the testimonies (toponyms, microtoponyms, oral tradition, names of the Clans etc) of those Albanian peasants. https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%ABrleni

https://i.imgur.com/TlwDSOJ.jpg

Sorcelow
01-06-2021, 07:47 PM
Now i bought the translated Defter of year 1423, regarding the Veles\Koprulu,(n.m) Kostur\Kastoria,(gr) Kolonje\Erseke (alb) areas during the beginning of the XV century:
"1422-1423 Tarihli Köprülü, Kastorya ve Koluna Vilayetleri Mufassal Defteri"

Actually i wanted to verify what D.Gorgiev had written here in this article:
" Siedlungsverhältnisse im makedonisch-albanischen Grenzgebiet im 15. und 16. Jahrhundert (nach osmanischen Quellen)"

Regarding his interpretation about the amount of Slavic speakers in Albania and the amount of Albanian speakers in Slavic(Bulgarian) inhabited areas west Macedonia & north-west Greece !! As i expected, concerning the aforementioned areas, the incongruences were too obvious. No Macedonian or Bulgarian Historian\Ottomanist had ever mentioned the considerable percentage of Albanian Orthodox in Demir Hisar - Murgashevo area in the basis of the Defter year 1467\68, the precise thing happens also regarding the Kastoria\Kostur area!!!
To be more concrete :
"55. Die Anzahl der Personen mit charakteristischen albanischen Namen, wie Pal, Gjon, Gjin betrug auf dem gesamten Territorium des kazas Kostur nur 23. (Ebd. 75, 79, 80, 95).

"55. The number of people with characteristic Albanian names such as Pal, Gjon, Gjin was only 23 in the entire territory of the kazas Kostur (ibid. 75, 79, 80, 95).

Well i counted more than 56 Gjin, Gjon, Gjergj in the kaza of Kostur ...without counting the other Albanian Onomastics Lesh, Deda\Dida, Menkshe, Liko\Lika, Progon, Bardh\Bardho, Duka, Balo, Zgur\Skurr, Tole etc also without counting those hundred Albanian Orthodox with typical Christian names such as: Nikola, Dimitri, Petro, Jorgji, Kosta, Dhimo, Pavel etc etc
https://www.lithoksou.net/search/label/%CE%9C%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%B4%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%AF%C E%B1.%20%CE%A4%CE%B1%20%CF%87%CF%89%CF%81%CE%B9%CE %AC%20%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82%20%CE%9A%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%8 4%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%AC%CF%82

Not only, Kanchov, Milojevic etc have labelled this villages as Slavic Muslims: Gėrleni, Prapacka e Poshtme, Prapacka e Siperme, Tėrstika, Shėnedjelli\Sveti Nedela etc meanwhile that the inhabitans of this villages which emigrated in Albania after 1913 and 1923 declared themselfs as Albanian-speakers Muslims in this book - Fatos Mero Rrapaj (1995). Fjalori Onomastik i Epirit. - are the testimonies (toponyms, microtoponyms, oral tradition, names of the Clans etc) of those Albanian peasants. https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%ABrleni

https://i.imgur.com/TlwDSOJ.jpg

Do you mind sharing some pages of the book? I plan on ordering it as well.

Exercitus
01-06-2021, 08:13 PM
Some Villages from the Defter of Vilayet-i Kastoria year 1423:

- Stena\Stensko

https://i.imgur.com/n6Ovdfy.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Stena+520+51,+Grecia/@40.435165,21.0331222,2503m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1359fd49b138692d:0x c9133c5bc89d2683!2sKastoria+521+00,+Grecia!3b1!8m2 !3d40.5192691!4d21.2687171!3m4!1s0x135a032ba00f7a4 d:0x51d8a9521e7e36dd!8m2!3d40.4350357!4d21.0415247

- Cakanoz\Cakoni

https://i.imgur.com/ETiNHKJ.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tsakoni+522+00,+Grecia/@40.4783214,21.1427167,5002m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1359fd49b138692d:0x c9133c5bc89d2683!2sKastoria+521+00,+Grecia!3b1!8m2 !3d40.5192691!4d21.2687171!3m4!1s0x1359f939dfd04dc 1:0xa0b821bb499ec711!8m2!3d40.4780311!4d21.1606658


- Nestrami

https://i.imgur.com/DrSXczl.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Nestorio+520+51,+Grecia/@40.4155844,21.048736,2503m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1359fd49b138692d:0x c9133c5bc89d2683!2sKastoria+521+00,+Grecia!3b1!8m2 !3d40.5192691!4d21.2687171!3m4!1s0x135a1d24b4e7ad1 1:0x2f1fa05a018acb5f!8m2!3d40.4173108!4d21.0565263


- Zicishte\Vicishte

https://i.imgur.com/jinWKeI.jpg


https://www.google.com/maps/place/%CE%9D%CE%AF%CE%BA%CE%B7+522+00,+Grecia/@40.3781046,21.1021023,2505m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x1359f62d7e6a6c81:0x8c950 06c51af5acb!8m2!3d40.3794628!4d21.1058233

- Cuka\ Arkhangelos

https://i.imgur.com/jaVS318.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Archaggelos+520+51,+Grecia/@40.4457688,21.0536401,2502m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1359f62d7e6a6c8 1:0x8c95006c51af5acb!2zzp3Or866zrcgNTIyIDAwLCBHcmV jaWE!3b1!8m2!3d40.3794628!4d21.1058233!3m4!1s0x135 a02c9790f965b:0x5d7ff4055f387e4a!8m2!3d40.445755!4 d21.062395


- Rashica near Stena\Stensko, village ceased to exist.

https://i.imgur.com/MuGwt2u.jpg

Exercitus
01-06-2021, 08:24 PM
- Novosela\Κορφούλα

https://i.imgur.com/9zf585n.jpg


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Korfoula+520+58,+Grecia/@40.5293725,20.9928766,4998m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x135a014587bf471f:0xa 170
84250a8fdd47!8m2!3d40.5293744!4d21.0103862


- Terstenik\Tiristije

https://i.imgur.com/HyKUeGP.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Akontio+520+50,+Grecia/@40.4906751,21.0400344,2500m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x135a03caead7ed8b:0x7b5c7 2e274d39498!8m2!3d40.4919978!4d21.0443689



- Ballu (first part, not localized Village, ceased to exist )

https://i.imgur.com/U5o8w5A.jpg


- Ulyat & Draganice ( west Kastoria, ceased to exist)

https://i.imgur.com/8UkxvUD.jpg

Sorcelow
01-06-2021, 08:29 PM
- Novosela\Κορφούλα

https://i.imgur.com/9zf585n.jpg


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Korfoula+520+58,+Grecia/@40.5293725,20.9928766,4998m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x135a014587bf471f:0xa 170
84250a8fdd47!8m2!3d40.5293744!4d21.0103862


- Terstenik\Tiristije

https://i.imgur.com/HyKUeGP.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Akontio+520+50,+Grecia/@40.4906751,21.0400344,2500m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x135a03caead7ed8b:0x7b5c7 2e274d39498!8m2!3d40.4919978!4d21.0443689



- Ballu (first part, not localized Village, ceased to exist )

https://i.imgur.com/U5o8w5A.jpg


- Ulyat & Draganice ( west Kastoria, ceased to exist)

https://i.imgur.com/8UkxvUD.jpg

Anything on the city of Kastoria itself, or the villages of Slatina and Borbosko?

Exercitus
01-06-2021, 08:43 PM
- Zhupanishte

https://i.imgur.com/ptOFb6t.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lefki+521+00,+Grecia/@40.5219314,21.1367655,18340m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x1359fdcb889de117:0x3b843 afc01e426e2!8m2!3d40.5213806!4d21.208028


- Mislogoshte,south of Kastoria

https://i.imgur.com/yFAle2Y.jpg


- Sheshtayova

https://i.imgur.com/RTh5fb0.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sidirochori+520+59,+Grecia/@40.5705926,21.2501397,9164m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x1357576ff42e14f5:0xdcb61 d97c6d8533f!8m2!3d40.5944704!4d21.2727146


- Tiholishte

https://i.imgur.com/NYAdRWm.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tichio+520+59,+Grecia/@40.5827251,21.2643708,9162m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x135759ce9fb0576b:0x1a358 a99b0400042!8m2!3d40.583031!4d21.3018282


- Vishanje\Visheni

https://i.imgur.com/LUlwL3P.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/H1lt67s.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Vissinia+520+59,+Grecia/@40.6224953,21.3112036,572m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x135a1883a3b1bdc f:0x69578003a109a724!2sPefkofito+500+07,+Grecia!3b 1!8m2!3d40.2952318!4d20.959419!3m4!1s0x13575a23147 0cfcb:0x4cf1960df6945972!8m2!3d40.6226664!4d21.312 5485

Exercitus
01-06-2021, 08:56 PM
- Slatine

https://i.imgur.com/GDa29H7.jpg

- Bogavicke

https://i.imgur.com/Dy9iwRD.jpg

- Sadove

https://i.imgur.com/2LXSbRH.jpg

Exercitus
01-06-2021, 09:03 PM
- Kastoria city 1423

https://i.imgur.com/BgIrww3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/LH3RxId.jpg

etc

Exercitus
01-06-2021, 09:56 PM
Villages of Kolonja (Erseka) in Albania, year 1423, no need to underline..:

- Gjonci

https://i.imgur.com/kI3Kmop.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gjon%C3%A7,+Albania/@40.2944207,20.6838387,16z/data=!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x135a403b7dba8985:0x888129a0 16a46ae8!2sErsek%C3%AB,+Albania!3b1!8m2!3d40.33732 62!4d20.6794676!3m4!1s0x135a40f2ac7ff24d:0x61a7a8d 0ac7975d9!8m2!3d40.2943144!4d20.6887794

- Qinam

https://i.imgur.com/yLwhI9n.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Qinam,+Albania/@40.3974341,20.6793595,5008m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x135a403b7dba8985:0x 888129a016a46ae8!2sErsek%C3%AB,+Albania!3b1!8m2!3d 40.3373262!4d20.6794676!3m4!1s0x135a6b3903b9abab:0 xe4aff63283782f69!8m2!3d40.396797!4d20.6980705


- Rehove

https://i.imgur.com/ZoTWZKH.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Rehov%C3%AB,+Albania/@40.3336478,20.6972873,2506m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x135a403b7dba8985:0x 888129a016a46ae8!2sErsek%C3%AB,+Albania!3b1!8m2!3d 40.3373262!4d20.6794676!3m4!1s0x135a40041f6f0a9b:0 x65a28f1a059d98eb!8m2!3d40.3332635!4d20.7077694


- Borova\Bozova

https://i.imgur.com/fGpdeY7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/fGjAHFa.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Borove,+Albania/@40.3116604,20.644759,2507m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x135a403b7dba8985:0x 888129a016a46ae8!2sErsek%C3%AB,+Albania!3b1!8m2!3d 40.3373262!4d20.6794676!3m4!1s0x135a41a7f1ed6e7f:0 x2a75a8ca8d2505b0!8m2!3d40.3120288!4d20.6511641


- Taci

https://i.imgur.com/OrYNczL.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Taci+i+Siperm,+Albania/@40.3227083,20.6718063,5013m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x135a403b7dba8985:0x 888129a016a46ae8!2sErsek%C3%AB,+Albania!3b1!8m2!3d 40.3373262!4d20.6794676!3m4!1s0x135a40401b87c2dd:0 xfbd2abda2f01f0a0!8m2!3d40.3229619!4d20.6876636

- Varibobi (Kolonje)

https://i.imgur.com/4Rfy6q4.jpg

etc etc

Sorcelow
01-06-2021, 10:03 PM
Interesting how the names "Yorgo" and "Yani" transition to "Gerg" and "Gjin/Gjon" once you enter the Albanian dominated areas.

td120
01-06-2021, 10:21 PM
Thank you for the effort !

-Leaving the Bulgarian/Serbian/Greek stats aside, what is the picture by foreign ones?

-There are several Slatinas ,which one do you have in mind or compare? (there are 3 Slatina and posiible 2 Slatino)

-Concerning the Christian names in the defter ,let's take Castoria... I see normal Christian names that can be either Bulgarian or Greek and some of them might have been of Christian Albanians (the exceptions from the "common" ones being Ugosh/Urosh ...Iriros is probably Illyros...Lograki,Likoudi,Kalagraki and Xanos etc.)

https://imgur.com/LH3RxId

......................
Now that is undeniably a whole 'nuther picture here:
https://imgur.com/kI3Kmop

...............

I remember in some of the reports of 1916 the examiner noted that he put muslim Albanians as Turks (or was it the opposite?) for whatever reason . Will look it up again.

Exercitus
01-06-2021, 10:26 PM
Yes indeed, in the contact zone (ethnically mixed areas) this phenomena it's quite normal, a Albanian Orthodox would prefer (or it suits him and interest!!) a general Christian Orthodox name, lets take the example of two villages:

- Sheshtayova

https://i.imgur.com/RTh5fb0.jpg

and

- Yasenova, Veles 1423

https://i.imgur.com/tcVm7k0.jpg


for D. Gorgiev both these village were Bulgarian Slavic-speaking villages, do you agree !?

td120
01-06-2021, 10:41 PM
I don't know frankly. And then there is quite a bit of stretch of 5 centuries.
What I remember is that in the contact zones "one could hardly tell the difference between Christian Albanians and Bulgarians" (citation by memory) .Clothing included. Bilingualism was present too (some of them carried this on their migration further NorthEast and as far as present day Ukraine).

Concerning Shesteovo, here are listed some stats about it with the discrepancies and the same names from the defter you have):
https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE

Blunt's stats (1897) list Shesteovo as :
147 Houses
250 Slavs Othodox
275 Slavs Mixed
525 Total Inhabitants



http://periodica.fzf.ukim.edu.mk/godzb/GZ21(1969)/GZ21.06.%20%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0 %B2-%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%98%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D 0%B8,%20%D0%A5.%20-%20%D0%95%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%20%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BF%D 0%BE%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%82%20%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0% D1%82%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BA%D0%B8%20 %D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B4%20%D0%B 7%D0%B0%20%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0% BD%D0%B8%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE%20%D0%B2%D0%BE%20%D0%B1 %D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BE%D 1%82%20%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B5%D1%82%20%D0% BE%D0%B4%201897.pdf

Статистичкйот преглед за населението во Битолскиот вилает
Г. С. Блант го титулирал како: „Населението во Битолскиот вилает”
(Population of the Vilayet of Monastir). ГТрегледот e датиран на 30 јуни
1897 година и тоа во Со лун. Toj се состой од 84 страни, плус пет страни
рекапиту лациј а, што знали вкухгно 89 страни. Подробности за начинот
како е собиран материјалот за овој преглед Г. С. Блант не изиесува.
По секоја веројатност се ползувани официјалните податоци од турските
вилаетски календари, од Салнамето 1893/94 година и од ливни набљудувања. Долгиот рок на подготвување на овој преглед сведочи дека Г.
С. Блант извел й испитувачка дејност во реонот на вилаетот. На тоа
наведува и фактот за оригиналното бележење на топонимите, кои и
покрај англиската транскрипција не изгубиле од својата првобитна
оригиналка форма.
..........
Прегледот на Г. С. Блант е доста комплексен. Изнесени се за
секоја населба целосни нодатоци. Опфатени се речиси сите населби на
вилаетот. Дури се дадени нодатоци и за населбите кои имале и помалу
од пет куќи. Во прегледот се изнесени такви нодатоци за бројот на население™, какви нема во другите прегледи

dosas
01-06-2021, 10:41 PM
This is not anecdotal, but well researched subject. See about the origin of the Kariots in Thrace:

https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8

Носията на кариотите е съвършено българска, с калпака заедно. Мъжете не знаят всички български, но има и жени, които знаят. Пеенето на песни с чужди примесици, напр. с български рефрени, като „вакла Яне!“, показва, че тези гърци отчасти са само погърчени българи; в Кавакли, сега съвършено гръцки, една махала и до днес се нарича Булгар махала. Според топографичната номенклатура, която с малки изключения е съвършено турска, може да се съди, че християнското население и тук е от по-нов произход.

The costume of the karyots is perfectly Bulgarian, with the hat together. Men do not know all Bulgarian, but there are women who do. Singing songs with foreign additions, e.g. with Bulgarian refrains, such as "Vakla Yane!", shows that these Greeks are partly only Greek Bulgarians; in Kavakli, now perfectly Greek, a neighborhood is still called Bulgar mahala . According to the topographic nomenclature, which with few exceptions is completely Turkish, it can be judged that the Christian population here is of more recent origin.

„вакла Яне!“ means "Black-eyed Yana!"


What does this incredibly small and fringe group have to do with the general ethnography of Greek Thrace? You are grasping at straws now, and are obviously illiterate about Thracian ethnography (at least the Greek part) but I don't want to take advantage of our fellow Albanian posters' patience and keep sidetracking their thread.

eastara
01-07-2021, 01:10 PM
What does this incredibly small and fringe group have to do with the general ethnography of Greek Thrace? You are grasping at straws now, and are obviously illiterate about Thracian ethnography (at least the Greek part) but I don't want to take advantage of our fellow Albanian posters' patience and keep sidetracking their thread.

Sorry, brt maybe you have no knowledge of Bulgarian folk music from that region(Rhodope and Thrace) and imagine it is something unique Greek. Since when are the bag pipes and uneven rhythms Greek folk signature??
But really enough in this thread.

Johane Derite
01-10-2021, 10:41 AM
Here is a distribution of the surname γκεκασ (meaning Gheg in Greek) in Greece:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErUD4qHXcAI_iZZ?format=jpg&name=large


This is just one search with those that have the name Gheg, there are probably way more if we individually go through Northern Gheg tribe names, like Lekas, Gjokas, Kriezis, etc.

Kelmendasi
01-16-2021, 05:37 PM
Mazreka is the surname given for Skanderbeg's father in the Prosopographisches Lexikon der Palaiologenzeit (nr. 11400).

The etymology is given as "behind the river" mas rekes, with a palatilzation of the "s" into z. So an albanian toponym for a place behind a river which then becomes a surname of someone from there.
In Edmond Malaj's Familjet Fisnike tė Drishtit Mesjetar (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326573541_Familje_fisnike_te_Drishtit_mesjetar_Nob le_Families_of_Medieval_Drivasto_Albanian) it is stated in a sentence that the late Albanian linguist Eqrem Ēabej linked the etymology of the anthroponym Mazarek/Mazrek to the Albanian word mėz or māz/maz in the Geg dialects, meaning "foal" or "colt". Ultimately connecting it to horse breeding and raising.

It is also interesting to note that according to Du Cange in his Historia Byzantina of 1680, which referenced Giovanni Andrea Angelo Flavio Comneno's Genealogia diversarum principum familiarum, a certain Konstantin Kastrioti Mazreku (Constantinus Castriotus, cognomento Meserechus) who died in the year 1390 was noted as being the father of Pal Kastrioti, and so the great-grandfather of Skanderbeg. Not to be confused with the later Konstantin's who also belonged to this family. Du Cange gives him the title of princeps over Mati (Aemathiae) and a region called 'Kastoria' (Castoriae), which may possibly be related to the microtoponym Kostur near the village of Mazrek which is located in the Hasi ethnographic region. This would suggest that the Kastrioti themselves may be descended from a branch of the Mazreku fis that potentially settled around Hasi from the north of Shkodra. It is also important to bring up the fact that in a document dating back to the 17th century, two members of the nobility of Drisht are noted with the last name Kastrioti: Pjėter Kastrioti and his daughter, Ana Katerina Kastrioti.

Hawk
01-16-2021, 05:57 PM
If he was Mazreku looks like Scanderbeg was likely a R1b-Z2103 carrier.

I also think Maz relating to old Proto-Albanian name for horse makes more sense. So Mazreku could mean something like cavalrymen?

Kelmendasi
01-16-2021, 06:27 PM
If he was Mazreku looks like Scanderbeg was likely a R1b-Z2103 carrier.

I also think Maz relating to old Proto-Albanian name for horse makes more sense. So Mazreku could mean something like cavalrymen?
Ēabej links the name to horse rearing, though I am unsure in which one of his works this connection is made. The Mazreku fis is also referred to occasionally as Mazri which I think strengthens the link to māz/maz, the frequency of the anthroponym Mazarek may also indicate that horses or horse breeding was important to the early Albanians, similar to certain Vlach groups.

The Mazreku connection would suggest that the Kastrioti were R1b-Z2705 considering that a member of this fis from Shkodra has tested as such, and so have some from around Prizren in Kosovo that have now become a part of the larger Thaēi tribe.

Exercitus
01-17-2021, 12:41 AM
https://youtu.be/SM0u2yJkXT4

Dropulli - Δερόπολη when Gjini, Gjoni, Leka, Deda etc etc became "greek" !! The truth that the Defters tell.

Sorcelow
01-17-2021, 01:12 AM
https://youtu.be/SM0u2yJkXT4

Dropulli - Δερόπολη when Gjini, Gjoni, Leka, Deda etc etc became "greek" !! The truth that the Defters tell.

Is that defter available anywhere? Are we particularly surprised that are Albanian names in northern Epirot villages considering that those regions were under the rule of various Albanian tribes during the middle ages, and that both communities lived side by side for millenia? This seems like a sad attempt to attack the Greek community of Southern Albania, even though most of its members are now elderly individuals who mind their own business. Kinda sad that Albanian “journalists” have to resort to antagonizing the local Greek community, both marin mema and that ilnisa begolli, or whatever her name is.

trdbr1234
01-17-2021, 01:28 AM
Is that defter available anywhere? Are we particularly surprised that are Albanian names in northern Epirot villages considering that those regions were under the rule of various Albanian tribes during the middle ages, and that both communities lived side by side for millenia? This seems like a sad attempt to attack the Greek community of Southern Albania, even though most of its members are now elderly individuals who mind their own business. Kinda sad that Albanian “journalists” have to resort to antagonizing the local Greek community, both marin mema and that ilnisa begolli, or whatever her name is.

I agree with you that Marin Mema does add a nationalistic twist and I have seen this in his other videos as well. However, the video states a few important documents.

According to the documents they referenced, (28:00 - 30:00)

in 1736 the Greek priest of Delvina named Genad whom was from Izmir, resigned from his duty because he could not accept the fact that the Christian population of these areas spoke Albanian

in 1856, 12 villages of Pogon region of Dropull write a letter to Constantinople, "We have always had a priest that spoke Albanian, recently they brought us priests that speak Greek and we are forced to bring interpreters. Please send us priests that speak Albanian, as has been the tradition."

trdbr1234
01-17-2021, 01:38 AM
Ēabej links the name to horse rearing, though I am unsure in which one of his works this connection is made. The Mazreku fis is also referred to occasionally as Mazri which I think strengthens the link to māz/maz, the frequency of the anthroponym Mazarek may also indicate that horses or horse breeding was important to the early Albanians, similar to certain Vlach groups.

The Mazreku connection would suggest that the Kastrioti were R1b-Z2705 considering that a member of this fis from Shkodra has tested as such, and so have some from around Prizren in Kosovo that have now become a part of the larger Thaēi tribe.

Mazreku likely refers to the region of Reka, in my opinion. Maz-Reku. This would add weight to the Mijaci claim whom regard Gjergj Kastrioti as being from there. Early Turkish defters also recorded a Kastrioti in one of the villages of Reka Eper.

Sorcelow
01-17-2021, 01:39 AM
I agree with you that Marin Mema does add a nationalistic twist and I have seen this in his other videos as well. However, the video states a few important documents.

According to the documents they referenced, (28:00 - 30:00)

in 1736 the Greek priest of Delvina named Genad whom was from Izmir, resigned from his duty because he could not accept the fact that the Christian population of these areas spoke Albanian

in 1856, 12 villages of Pogon region of Dropull write a letter to Constantinople, "We have always had a priest that spoke Albanian, recently they brought us priests that speak Greek and we are forced to bring interpreters. Please send us priests that speak Albanian, as has been the tradition."

Not sure, but Dropull in this instance may refer to the wider ecclesiastical region of Dryinoupolis, which included the wider region of Gjirokaster, which of course contains both Greek and Albanian speaking villages. Also, concerning Delvina, Kelmendasi recently posted an article that references the inhabitants of this region as speaking Greek. But of course, there are Albanian speaking christian villages in this region such as Sopik, Muzina, and Mursi. Either way, my point is that the occurrence of these names in the medieval defters doesnt prove or disprove the Greekness of these people today.

Exercitus
01-17-2021, 01:48 AM
https://i.imgur.com/AApUWNU.jpg

Defter of Sandjak of Avlonya - Vlora year 1520:

Goranxi and Dervicani

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Goranxi,+Albania/@40.0187407,20.1831292,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x135b045eee5b9537:0x3c443 43a7a5e207a!8m2!3d40.0181656!4d20.192378

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dervi%C3%A7an,+Albania/@40.0335286,20.1705336,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x135b045eee5b9537:0x 3c44343a7a5e207a!2sGoranxi,+Albania!3b1!8m2!3d40.0 181656!4d20.192378!3m4!1s0x135b0480ede2fc4d:0xb485 ca2b56d491bd!8m2!3d40.0316892!4d20.1789665

Exercitus
01-17-2021, 01:49 AM
https://peizazhe.com/2008/03/16/shqiptare-dhe-greke-ne-epir/

Exercitus
01-17-2021, 01:59 AM
Prof. Ferit Duka (Historian\Ottomanist) -
“Realiteti etnik i Dropullit nė burimet historike tė shek.XVI”, Studime historike, nr.3-4, 1991

“Shoqeria dhe ekonomia nė Ēamėrinė osmane: kazatė e Ajdonatit dhe Mazrakut (shek. XVI)"


Prof. Pellumb Xhufi (Historian\Medievalist) -

"Įrbėrit e Jonit: Vlora, Delvina e Janina nė shek. XV-XVII"

trdbr1234
01-17-2021, 01:59 AM
https://peizazhe.com/2008/03/16/shqiptare-dhe-greke-ne-epir/


7. Toponimet nė Shqipėri tė Jugut

Edhe njė analizė e toponimeve, ose emrave tė vendeve, nė Shqipėri tė Jugut provon se ndikimi grek atje ka qenė i papėrfillshėm, nė njė kohė qė shumica dėrrmuese e kėtyre toponimeve janė me prejardhje nga sllavishtja – nė Labėri, nė Kurvelesh, nė Kolonjė, nė Korēė, nė Mallakastėr, nė Skrapar… (shumica, nė mos tė gjitha toponimet e formuara me prapashtesat –ovė, -icė, -skė, -injė, -pojė, -inė). Arsyet pėr kėtė nuk ėshtė vendi tė diskutohen kėtu; por mungesa e toponimisė greke, nė njė territor tė administruar pėr shekuj tė tėra nga Bizanti, nuk mund tė shpėrfillet; sepse ėshtė provė e dorės sė parė e natyrės jogreke tė banorėve pėrkatės.


From reading Veselka Tončeva, she states that -ica and -ice may be a compound of -ishta and -ishte. Although from my understanding, she seems to relate -ishta and -ishte to Slavic, which is nonsensical.

Do you know anything about this?

Exercitus
01-17-2021, 02:04 AM
I just send to Marin Mema the Defters of Demir Hisar year 1467, and Kastoria\Kostur year 1423 !! Some things just need to be exposed!!

Kelmendasi
01-17-2021, 02:07 AM
Mazreku likely refers to the region of Reka, in my opinion. Maz-Reku. This would add weight to the Mijaci claim whom regard Gjergj Kastrioti as being from there. Early Turkish defters also recorded a Kastrioti in one of the villages of Reka Eper.
Personally I do not think this is likely, the historiography that I have come across does not seem to point out Upper Reka as a place of origin for the Kastrioti. The Mazreku family name is either a patronymic or a direct link to the Mazreku fis which was spread throughout the north of Albania. If we are to refer to oral traditions, the Mazreku of Shkodra themselves claim to be related to the Kastrioti.

As for the Kastrioti recorded in the Ottoman defter, it was a certain Dimitri Kastrioti who was from the village of Setina e Poshtėme which likely is just Sina e Poshtme, one of the villages belonging to Pal Kastrioti, Skanderbeg’s grandfather.

Interestingly, the Albanians of Upper Reka have oral traditions claiming that Vrana Konti, one of Skanderbeg's most accomplished commanders, was from the region and that he was buried near the village of Rimnica.

Exercitus
01-17-2021, 02:24 AM
Goranxi year 1520:

https://i.imgur.com/6s90RaZ.jpg

Jorgucat year 1520:

https://i.imgur.com/SEXhRYw.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Jorgucat,+Albania/@39.9369373,20.2496265,4625m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x135b0890e1972275:0xca43a cd3331a6554!8m2!3d39.9366134!4d20.2683286


Defters do not lie !!!

Kelmendasi
01-17-2021, 02:34 AM
Not sure, but Dropull in this instance may refer to the wider ecclesiastical region of Dryinoupolis, which included the wider region of Gjirokaster, which of course contains both Greek and Albanian speaking villages. Also, concerning Delvina, Kelmendasi recently posted an article that references the inhabitants of this region as speaking Greek. But of course, there are Albanian speaking christian villages in this region such as Sopik, Muzina, and Mursi. Either way, my point is that the occurrence of these names in the medieval defters doesnt prove or disprove the Greekness of these people today.
I believe here you are referring to the treatise by Antonio Bruti, where he mentions that the Orthodox Christians of the Sanjak of Delvina all spoke Greek. This may have been a reference to the liturgical language of the region considering that Bruti takes a religious emphasis and mentions the area as belonging to the Albanian nation. However, I would not say that Greek was not spoken in the region as a second or even first language, bilingualism likely was present, and I also remember that the Ottoman defter of the region showed a high frequency of Albanian anthroponymy, I'll try search for it again.

Kelmendasi
01-17-2021, 04:46 PM
An interesting paper and work on the presence of Albanians in North Macedonia during the Medieval period is Iljaz Rexha's Popullsia Albane Gjatė Mesjetės nė Hapsirėn e Maqedonisė sė Sotme (Sipas Burimeve Sllave dhe Osmane) (https://www.academia.edu/23971339/POPULLSIA_ALBANE_GJAT%C3%8B_MESJET%C3%8BS_N%C3%8B_ HAPSIR%C3%8BN_E_MAQEDONIS%C3%8B_S%C3%8B_SOTME_SIPA S_BURIMEVE_SLLAVE_DHE_OSMANE_). He notes the various anthroponyms that show up in the Ottoman defter of 1451-52 which covered much of Rumelia.

On the settlement of Kėrēovė/Kičevo, Rexha notes that during the 15th century it had an Albanian (Arnaut) neighbourhood or mahalla, as well as a Serbian neighbourhood. In the Albanian quarter, typical Albanian anthroponyms such as Progon, Gjon, Dodė, Gjergj, etc. dominate, however there is also a presence of some Slavic names (e.g., Bogdan, Pejo, Stojan, etc.) as well as Albanian names that have undergone Slavic influence such as Leshko. However in these cases they usually have Albanian patronyms, for example: Bogdan, son of Progon; Stojan, son of Gjon; Mijo, son of Progon, etc. Interestingly enough, Rexha states that around half of the heads of households from the Serbian quarter also had Albanian anthroponyms or patronyms. This suggests a kind of Albanian-Slavic symbiosis in the region.

Exercitus
01-17-2021, 05:45 PM
Indeed Serbs and Albanian Orthodox living together in the same city, in western Macedonia during the XV century, Albanian-Slavic symbiosis its a natural phenomena in this areas !!

https://i.imgur.com/HlRpooH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qG6YSk7.jpg


Pr.Iljaz Rexha's translation:

https://i.imgur.com/iHLlKvf.jpg

Kelmendasi
01-17-2021, 07:20 PM
and I also remember that the Ottoman defter of the region showed a high frequency of Albanian anthroponymy, I'll try search for it again.
I have come across an Albanian forum (http://arberiaonline.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=168) where the settlements and anthroponyms of the heads of households from the Ottoman defter of the Sanjak of Delvina of 1582-83 were posted. The anthroponyms that showed up in some of the major settlements of the Himara region were posted: Himarė itself, Dhėrmi, and Palasė. All three settlements seem to have a predominance of Albanian anthroponymy (e.g., Lekė, Gjin, Gjon, Pal, Zot, Gjika, etc.), with Greek or Greek Orthodox names showing up occasionally as well. What is important to note is that today these three villages predominantly belong to the Greek minority of Albania and speak their local Himariote dialect of Greek, with Albanian being the spoken language for a handful of families in some of the villages. Shifts in ethno-linguistic identity in my opinion occurred due to a number of factors, some involving the Greek Orthodox Church whilst others being more due to internal or external migrations that took place in later centuries.

What is also very interesting is that the defter confirms the old genealogies of certain families of the region that have been there for as long as they can remember. Some examples are the Gjipali and Gjokgjini, with the Gjipali likely being descended from Gjin Pali who lived in the town of Himara itself, and the Gjokgjini coming from Gjokė Gjini who was also from the coastal town.

Aspar
01-17-2021, 07:47 PM
From reading Veselka Tončeva, she states that -ica and -ice may be a compound of -ishta and -ishte. Although from my understanding, she seems to relate -ishta and -ishte to Slavic, which is nonsensical.

Do you know anything about this?

The suffix ishte/ište, ishta/išta is indeed of Slavic origin, coming from the Proto-Slavic /-išče (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/-i%C5%A1%C4%8De). Most of the toponymy containing this suffix does seem to reflect a Slavic influence in the forming of the name but not necessarily a Slavic ethnic population. The first recorded toponym in the Balkans having this suffix is from the first half of the 6th century AD somewhere close to Niš in Serbia. It was a minor fort build by the Emperor Justinian and the fort was called Βρατζιστα/Vračišta from the Slavic word 'Vrač' - a healer or a witch doctor and the Slavic suffix 'išta'.

Exercitus
01-17-2021, 08:36 PM
Well Pr. Rexha has done an excellent work, especially concerning the evidences about the presence of the Christian Albanians in Kosovo during the XV & XVI centuries in the basis of the Ottoman Defters !!

https://www.gazetaere.com/libri-vendbanimet-dhe-popullsia-albane-e-kosoves-recension/


About west Macedonia his list its not complete - it is missing the area of Demir Hisar, Resen\Resnje, Ohrid etc - also he hasn't mentioned all the Albanian-inhabited villages in Bitola\Manastir Nahija year 1468 like: Drevenik, Ostrec, Kishava etc.


From "Бројност, структура и миграции на албанското население според пописите од 1921 и 1931 година – „Арнаути по мајчин јазик“

Page n.160:

In the Bitola Nahija in the XV century there are several villages in which some of the inhabitants have characteristic names for the Albanian population of that time. As an example, we will mention the village of Drevenik, which "welcomes" the Balkan wars with an Albanian Muslim population. There are about twenty families registered in the village, and some of the heads of the families bear the following names: Gin son of Martin, Gon son of Andreja, Marko son of Progon, Gerg son of Arbanash, Kosta Arbanash, Nikola son of Skura and others. In the village of Lazec

https://i.imgur.com/rE90BJx.jpg


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lazhec,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@40.911996,21.360889,4558m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x13572451365fb6fd:0x fa67bbbf65bec948!2sBitola,+Macedonia+del+Nord!3b1! 8m2!3d41.0296773!4d21.3292164!3m4!1s0x13573bffdec0 0dab:0xe23d51c057db501f!8m2!3d40.912118!4d21.37926 58

among the many Slavic names, the following can be found: Nikola Muzak, Leko Arnaut, Stojko Progon, Bard Arnaut, Gin Bard, Nikola Arnaut and others.

In Ostrec

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ostrec,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@40.9295311,21.2661269,9114m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x13572451365fb6fd:0x fa67bbbf65bec948!2sBitola,+Macedonia+del+Nord!3b1! 8m2!3d41.0296773!4d21.3292164!3m4!1s0x13573a1c371c 90ff:0xb73aa1055f4406eb!8m2!3d40.928948!4d21.30274 77

on the slopes of Baba Planina, for which Trifunoski states that the Albanian population in the village began to settle at the end of the XVIII century or at the beginning of the XIX century (Jovan F. Trufunoski, Bitola-Prilep valley, 212), in 1468 part of the inhabitants bear characteristic Albanian names: Gin son of Pano, Leko Arbanash, Gon son of Koke, None Arbanash and the like. Similar names are recorded in several other villages in the Bitola Nahia in 1468 (Turkish documents on the history of the Macedonian people, Extensive census books from the XV century, volume II, edited by Metodija Sokoloski, Skopje, 1973, 156, 179, 231) .

Other Villages, Opticar

https://i.imgur.com/wL5cSVv.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Optichari,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@40.9899243,21.3852072,9106m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x13572451365fb6fd:0x fa67bbbf65bec948!2sBitola,+Macedonia+del+Nord!3b1! 8m2!3d41.0296773!4d21.3292164!3m4!1s0x1357232f6780 6c7f:0x5e5ea509bf1d5afc!8m2!3d40.9891634!4d21.4201 212

- Lavci\Vlashci

https://i.imgur.com/Bu76PhK.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lavci,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@41.0168087,21.2922867,4551m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x13572451365fb6fd:0x fa67bbbf65bec948!2sBitola,+Macedonia+del+Nord!3b1! 8m2!3d41.0296773!4d21.3292164!3m4!1s0x13572546e566 f739:0x94d97fc58057abea!8m2!3d41.0150735!4d21.3035 202


etc etc

Exercitus
01-17-2021, 08:53 PM
Also south of Kruševo\Krushevė the villages:

- Brina\Birino year 1468, from 30 householders, almost 10 had Albanian or Albanian-like onomastics:

https://i.imgur.com/e7WcxeO.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Birino,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@41.311866,21.260848,2265m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x13572451365fb6fd:0x fa67bbbf65bec948!2sBitola,+Macedonia+del+Nord!3b1! 8m2!3d41.0296773!4d21.3292164!3m4!1s0x1356d01b7585 9579:0xb6e91cac3fdce98b!8m2!3d41.3115653!4d21.2694 132


- Sveti Dimitri\Sveti Mitrani year 1468, the same situation as Birino:

https://i.imgur.com/bWmXpbF.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sveto+Mitrani,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@41.3227147,21.2872003,4530m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x13572451365fb6fd:0x fa67bbbf65bec948!2sBitola,+Macedonia+del+Nord!3b1! 8m2!3d41.0296773!4d21.3292164!3m4!1s0x1356c54656da 6d07:0x34ce52554a6d0735!8m2!3d41.3222987!4d21.3046 253


etc This were mixed areas inhabited by Bulgarians & Albanian Orthodox, during the XV century!!

Exercitus
01-17-2021, 09:13 PM
Well about the - ishte suffix, yes it seems to reflect a Slavic influence, but has became fondamental suffix in the Albanian language !!

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/phm/gal/index.html

- Dardhishte
- Vidhishte
- Mollishte
- Bathishte
- Ullishte
etc

Sorcelow
01-17-2021, 09:25 PM
I have come across an Albanian forum (http://arberiaonline.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=168) where the settlements and anthroponyms of the heads of households from the Ottoman defter of the Sanjak of Delvina of 1582-83 were posted. The anthroponyms that showed up in some of the major settlements of the Himara region were posted: Himarė itself, Dhėrmi, and Palasė. All three settlements seem to have a predominance of Albanian anthroponymy (e.g., Lekė, Gjin, Gjon, Pal, Zot, Gjika, etc.), with Greek or Greek Orthodox names showing up occasionally as well. What is important to note is that today these three villages predominantly belong to the Greek minority of Albania and speak their local Himariote dialect of Greek, with Albanian being the spoken language for a handful of families in some of the villages. Shifts in ethno-linguistic identity in my opinion occurred due to a number of factors, some involving the Greek Orthodox Church whilst others being more due to internal or external migrations that took place in later centuries.

What is also very interesting is that the defter confirms the old genealogies of certain families of the region that have been there for as long as they can remember. Some examples are the Gjipali and Gjokgjini, with the Gjipali likely being descended from Gjin Pali who lived in the town of Himara itself, and the Gjokgjini coming from Gjokė Gjini who was also from the coastal town.

I'd like to see more Himariot Y Dna results. Judging by what we already have, there seems to be a high occurrence of J2a in the region, which separates them from the neighboring Labs, and brings them closer to continental Greeks in terms of lineage frequencies. I'm not particularly surprised by Albanian onomastics in the region, but to suggest that these people are simply Hellenized Albanians in my opinion doesn't have much backing. Much, if not most of the local toponymy is of Greek origin, and that cant be explained by a recent language shift. On top of that, they have their own dialect and sing polyphonic songs in the Greek language (at least the Greek speaking villages). Im sure, however, that they have multiple layers of Illyrian/Albanian ancestry.

In my opinion, Himara was always the border between the Greek dominant south and Illyrian dominant north. Strabo mentioned the Acroceraunian as the border between Epirus and Illyria, and even mentions that various tribes in this part of the Balkans were bilingual.

Exercitus
01-17-2021, 09:32 PM
https://www.academia.edu/33641726/Giakoumis_K_2016_Self_Identifications_by_Himarriot s_16th_to_19th_Centuries_Erytheia_Revista_de_Estud ios_Bizantinos_y_Neogriegos_v_37_pp_205_246

Exercitus
01-17-2021, 09:46 PM
Page 242\243

- Description of Himarra by its representatives addressed to Russia’s government, Himarra, ante 1759.


The people are ready for war… Their common action with the famous king Pyrrhus and the recently glorified Scanderbeg are not mentioned - stories praising their courage...

We only add that our faith is Orthodox, we are led by a Bishop; we are spiritually subjugated to the Patriarchof Constantinople. We speak the Albanian language, the same language spoken at neighbouring Albania and Bosnia. Yet, in many areas all learned speak Greek; noble families also speak Italian, due to themany officers serving foreign states and the young people studying at the Padova and Napoli theologicalseminaries.


- Relief inscription on a bell of the monastery of the Nativity of theVirgin at Krorėz, Bregdet, close to Saranda, 1813

ΙΣ ΜΝΙΜΟΣΙΝΩΝ ΕΟΝΙΩΝ ΤΩΝ ΕΘΕ-Λ(Ο)ΥΣΙΟΝ ΣΤΡΑΤΙΟΤΩΝ ΑΛΒΑΝΙΤΩΝΤ(Ο)Υ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΤΟΝ ∆ΙΟ ΣΙΚΕΛΙΩΝ ΑΠΟΧΟΡΙΟΝ Λ(Ο)ΥΚΟΒΟ, ΜΙΣΙΝΑ 1813.∆ΙΕΓΟ (;) ΡΑΠΟΝΖΙΟ

In perennial memory of the volunteering Albanian stradioti
of the king of Two Sicilies from the villager of Lukova, Mesina 1813. Through me, Raponzio.

What are the Himariots, its simple: the Defters of the XV-XVI do not lie...the Ancestors of today Himariots weren't lying... Y-Dna will show it clearly !!

J Man
01-17-2021, 09:52 PM
https://www.academia.edu/33641726/Giakoumis_K_2016_Self_Identifications_by_Himarriot s_16th_to_19th_Centuries_Erytheia_Revista_de_Estud ios_Bizantinos_y_Neogriegos_v_37_pp_205_246

Do you know how the people of the Himara region socially organized themselves traditionally? Patrilineages?

Kelmendasi
01-17-2021, 10:11 PM
I'd like to see more Himariot Y Dna results. Judging by what we already have, there seems to be a high occurrence of J2a in the region, which separates them from the neighboring Labs, and brings them closer to continental Greeks in terms of lineage frequencies. I'm not particularly surprised by Albanian onomastics in the region, but to suggest that these people are simply Hellenized Albanians in my opinion doesn't have much backing. Much, if not most of the local toponymy is of Greek origin, and that cant be explained by a recent language shift. On top of that, they have their own dialect and sing polyphonic songs in the Greek language (at least the Greek speaking villages). Im sure, however, that they have multiple layers of Illyrian/Albanian ancestry.

In my opinion, Himara was always the border between the Greek dominant south and Illyrian dominant north. Strabo mentioned the Acroceraunian as the border between Epirus and Illyria, and even mentions that various tribes in this part of the Balkans were bilingual.
In regards to the Y-DNA haplogroups of the region, it is true that there seems to be a higher presence of certain J2a-M410 clusters when compared to neighbouring regions such as Labėria. Take for example the specific J2a-F3133 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-F3133/) cluster which seems centred around the village of Dhėrmi, but also found in Himarė itself. However, there is also a presence of R1b-Z2705 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/) clusters, the common E-Z38456 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z38456/) cluster, and even some J2b-L283 (such as L283>Y155546 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y155546/) and L283>YP29 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP29/)). Then there are also some I2a-Y3120 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/) and R1a-M417 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M417/) samples, which of course are of Slavic origin.

I do not think that the entire present-day ethnic Greek community of Himara is of Hellenized Albanian origin, this in my opinion is too simplistic and unlikely. Though I believe that ethnic or at least linguistic shifts did occur in the region. I agree that there was an early Greek or Hellenic presence in this region since antiquity, I do not think however that the population was constant, but rather that settlements were abandoned and then re-settled rather frequently, especially during the more chaotic periods of Balkan history. And it is surely possible and likely in some cases that the remaining local Greek-speakers were picked up early on by the early or Proto-Albanians and absorbed, whilst others remained. However, I think that, as is shown by the Ottoman defters, during the 16th century at least there was a significant Albanian-speaking presence in the region that gradually came under more Greek linguistic influence due to the influence of the Greek Orthodox Church, as well as the population movements from the Greek-speaking world into the region which further bolstered the Hellenic presence in the area. If I recall correctly, there is evidence of movements from some of the Ionian Islands to Himara during the 17th or 18th century, I'll have to search for the papers to be sure however.

On the topic of the local Himariote Greek dialect, do you know of anything papers or studies on it? I remember reading that the dialect had some features that were atypical to the other Greek dialects spoken in Epirus, and that it shares some of them with dialects such as Maniot, though there are others who just group it as an Epirotic dialect.

Sorcelow
01-17-2021, 10:22 PM
In regards to the Y-DNA haplogroups of the region, it is true that there seems to be a higher presence of certain J2a-M410 clusters when compared to neighbouring regions such as Labėria. Take for example the specific J2a-F3133 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-F3133/) cluster which seems centred around the village of Dhėrmi, but also found in Himarė itself. However, there is also a presence of R1b-Z2705 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/) clusters, the common E-Z38456 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z38456/) cluster, and even some J2b-L283 (such as L283>Y155546 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y155546/) and L283>YP29 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP29/)). Then there are also some I2a-Y3120 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/) and R1a-M417 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M417/) samples.

I do not think that the entire present-day ethnic Greek community of Himara is of Hellenized Albanian origin, this in my opinion is too simplistic and unlikely. Though I believe that ethnic or at least linguistic shifts did occur in the region. I agree that there was an early Greek or Hellenic presence in this region since antiquity, I do not think however that the population was constant, but rather that settlements were abandoned and then re-settled rather frequently, especially during the more chaotic periods of Balkan history. And it is surely possible and likely in some cases that the remaining local Greek-speakers were picked up early on by the early or Proto-Albanians and absorbed, whilst others remained. However, I think that, as is shown by the Ottoman defters, during the 16th century at least there was a significant Albanian-speaking presence in the region that gradually came under more Greek linguistic influence due to the influence of the Greek Orthodox Church, as well as the population movements from the Greek-speaking world into the region which further bolstered the Hellenic presence in the area. If I recall correctly, there is evidence of movements from some of the Ionian Islands to Himara during the 17th or 18th century, I'll have to search for the papers to be sure however.

On the topic of the local Himariote Greek dialect, do you know of anything papers or studies on it? I remember reading that the dialect had some features that were atypical to the other Greek dialects spoken in Epirus, and that it shares some of them with dialects such as Maniot, though there are others who just group it as an Epirotic dialect.

Unfortunately, I cant locate any studies on the dialect at the moment, but I believe Natasha Gregoric explores the linguistics of the region in her paper. I think you should check out the work of Tzitzilis, too.

While we are on this topic, do we have any results from the villages of Zvernec and Narta? They are farthest villages to the north that are predominately Greek in speech.

Kelmendasi
01-17-2021, 10:34 PM
Unfortunately, I cant locate any studies on the dialect at the moment, but I believe Natasha Gregoric explores the linguistics of the region in her paper. I think you should check out the work of Tzitzilis, too.

While we are on this topic, do we have any results from the villages of Zvernec and Narta? They are farthest villages to the north that are predominately Greek in speech.
I do not think there are any results or samples from Zvėrnec or Narta so far, would certainly be great to test some however. Also, if I am not mistaken, the village of Zvėrnec has a mixed Greek and Aromanian population. I will try and look into the histories of these two villages.

Sorcelow
01-17-2021, 10:42 PM
I do not think there are any results or samples from Zvėrnec or Narta so far, would certainly be great to test some however. Also, if I am not mistaken, the village of Zvėrnec has a mixed Greek and Aromanian population. I will try and look into the histories of these two villages.

I found some studies on the Greek speech of southern Albania, if you are interested:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Aristotle_Spiro/publication/320382980_The_Modern_Greek_Dialects_of_Albania_A_g eneral_description_and_classification/links/59e0c41faca2724cbfd3f759/The-Modern-Greek-Dialects-of-Albania-A-general-description-and-classification.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20160507224409/http://periodikodrys.gr/%CF%87%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%BC%CE%AC%CF%81%CE%B1-%CE%B3%CE%BB%CF%89%CF%83%CF%83%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8C-%CE%B9%CE%B4%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BC%CE%B1-%CF%87%CE%B9%CE%BC%CE%AC%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%82/#_ftn29

Exercitus
01-17-2021, 11:14 PM
Μιχάλης Κοκολάκης, Το ύστερο Γιαννιώτικο Πασαλίκι : χώρος, διοίκηση και πληθυσμός στην τουρκοκρατούμενη Ηπειρο (1820-1913)

Thats a great book, i suggest it to everyone who is interested about the history of Epirus !!

Now about the Albanian-speaking areas in Epirus, some paragraphs:

σελίδα 53


59. Για την άγνοια της ελληνικής γλώσσας από τις γυναίκες βλ. π.χ. Leake 1835, τ. Α ', σ. 88 (Χειμάρρα), Λαμπρίδης 1880, τ. Β ', σ. 200 (Ρίζα, Λιντζουριά και Ζαγόρια), 1888γ, σ. 56 (Μέτσοβο), Wace-Thompson 1914, σ. 184 (επίσης) και 204 (Μπριάζα Κόνιτσας)

page 53


59. For the ignorance of the Greek language by women see e.g. Leake 1835, vol. A ', p. 88 (Himara), Lampridis 1880, vol. B', p. 200 (Riza, Lunxheria and Zagoria), 1888c, p. 56 (Metsovo), Wace-Thompson 1914, p. 184 (also) and 204 (Briaza Konitsa)



σελίδα 48

49.Το 1670 στο Δελβινάκι του Πωγωνιού, κατά τον Εβλιγιά Τσελεμπή (1928, σ. 682), «όλοι οι άπιστοι είναι Αρβανίτες». Το ίδιο μαρτυρούσε για την Καστάνιανη και το λεγόμενο Χρονικό των Τσαραπλανών (Λαμπρίδης 1889α, σ. 28). Αλβανόφωνα ήταν «εν αρχαίοις χρόνοις» το Κουκλέσι, το Ρωμανό και όλα τα χωριά της Λάκκας του Μπότσαρη στην περιφέρεια Ιωαννίνων (Λαμπρίδης 1888α, σ. 19). Για τους Αρβανίτες και τις υπόλοιπες φυλετικές επιμειξίες του Μαλακασιού τα στοιχεία συγκεντρώνουν οι Λαμπρίδης 1888β, σ. 13-17 και Σούλης 1953· πρβλ. Nicol 1984, σ. 145-146.
50. Χωριά με ονομασίες αρβανίτικης προέλευσης βρίσκονται κατά κύριο λόγο στις ακόλουθες ελληνόφωνες περιοχές: α. Μεταξύ Ιωαννίνων και Παραμυθιάς κατά μήκος της κοιλάδας του ποταμού Τύρια (Μάζι, Τόσκεσι κ.ά.), β. Στα νοτιοανατολικά της λίμνης των Ιωαννίνων (Μπαρκμάδι, Μουζακιοί κ.ά.), γ. Σποραδικά στις περιφέρειες Δελβίνου, Δρόπολης και Λάκκας Μουχτάρ στο νότιο Πωγώνι, δ. Στην περιοχή της Πρέβεζας, στη νότια προέκταση της αλβανόφωνης ζώνης της Τσαμουριάς (Σκέμπο, Μουζάκα, Μαρτανιοί), ε. Σποραδικά στο Ραδοβίζι και στα νότια Τζουμέρκα, στην προέκταση μίας αντίστοιχης αλυσίδας αρβανίτικων τοπωνυμίων στην περιοχή του θεσσαλικού Ασπροποταμου. Αντίθετα, το ελληνικό τοπωνυμικό υπόστρωμα των αλβανόφωνων περιοχών περιορίζεται σχεδόν αποκλειστικά στις παράλιες πεδινές ζώνες Φαναριού, Πλαταριάς και Μουζακιάς (περιοχή Αυλώνας-Απολλωνίας), για να δώσει στα ενδότερα τη θέση του στο σλαβικό. 51. Βλ. π.χ. Ααμπρίδης 1880, τ. Β ', σ. 236 (Κορυτσά-Πρεμετή)· Bérard 1987, σ. 47 (Δυρράχιο)· Bartl 1968, σ. 94 (Μπεράτι-Αυλώνα)

page 48

49. In 1670 in Delvinaki of Pogon, according to Evliya Celebi (1928, p. 682), "all the infidels are Albanians". The same testified about Kastaniani and the so-called Chronicle of the Tsaraplanes (Lampridis 1889a, p. 28). Kouklesi, Romano and all the villages of Lakka of Botsari in the region of Ioannina were "Albanian-speaking" in ancient times (Lampridis 1888a, p. 19). For the Albanians and the other tribal admixtures of Malakassi, the data are collected by Lampridis 1888b, pp. 13-17 and Soulis 1953; cf. Nicol 1984, pp. 145-146.
50. Villages with names of Albanian origin are located mainly in the following Greek-speaking areas: a. Between Ioannina and Paramythia along the valley of the river Tyria (Mazi, Toskesi etc.), b. In the southeast of Lake Ioannina (Barkmadi, Mouzaki, etc.), c. Sporadically in the regions of Delvinos, Dropolis and Lakka Mukhtar in southern Pogoni, d. In the area of ​​Preveza, in the southern extension of the Albanian-speaking zone of Tsamouria\Cameria (Skembo, Mouzaka, Martani), e. Sporadically in Radovi, chain of Albanian toponyms in the area of ​​Thessaly Aspropotamos. On the contrary, the Greek toponymic substratum of the Albanian-speaking areas is limited almost exclusively to the coastal plain zones of Fanari, Plataria and Mouzakia (Avlona-Apollonia region), to give the interior its place in Slavic. 51. Cf. e.g. Lambridis 1880, vol. II, p. 236 (Korytsa-Premeti); Bérard 1987, p. 47 (Durres); Bartl 1968, p. 94 (Berati-Avlona)


σελίδα 51


Ακόμη νοτιότερα και στο εσωτερικό της ελληνόφωνης ζώνης, παράλληλα με τις ακτές του Ιονίου, σχηματίζεται ο μεγάλος αλβανόφωνος θύλακας της Τσαμουριάς, που στο μεγαλύτερο μέρος του (με εξαίρεση την περιοχή της Κονίσπολης) πέρασε στην Ελλάδα με βάση το Πρωτόκολλο της Φλωρεντίας (1913). Στο θύλακα αυτό υπάγονταν από το σημερινό νομό Θεσπρωτίας οι επαρχίες Θυάμιδος και Μαργαριτίου και τα δυτικότερα χωριά των δύο επαρχιών Παραμυθιάς και Φιλιατών. Αλβανόφωνα ήταν και τα βόρεια τμήματα του σημερινού νομού της Πρέβεζας, όπως ο κάμπος του Φαναριού, η ενδοχώρα της Πάργας και τα παλιά παρασουλιώτικα χωριά του Ανω Αχέροντα (Ζερμή, Κρανιά, Παπαδάτες, Ρουσάτσα, Δερβίζιανα, Μουσιωτίτσα -τα δύο τελευταία υπάγονται διοικητικά στα Γιάννενα).



page 51


Even further south and inside the Greek-speaking zone, parallel to the Ionian coast, the large Albanian-speaking enclave of Tsamouria\Cameria is formed, which for the most part (with the exception of Konispoli) passed to Greece based on the Florence Protocol (1913). The provinces of Thyamidos and Margariti and the western villages of the two provinces of Paramythia and Filiates belonged to this pocket from the present prefecture of Thesprotia. The northern parts of the present-day prefecture of Preveza were also Albanian-speaking, such as the plain of Fanari, the hinterland of Parga and the old para-Souliote villages of Ano Acheron (Zermi, Krania, Papadates, Roussatsa, Derviziana, Mousiotitsa ).


σελίδα 345

Ο νοτιότερος ναχιγιές, η Τσαρκοβίστα, φιλοξενούσε έναν πληθυσμό κυρίως κτηνοτροφικό, σκορπισμένο σε 50 περίπου χωριά στις πλαγιές του Ολύτσικα και στις μικρές κοιλάδες του Ανω Αχέροντα·
η φτώχεια και η «αθλιότητα» που μάστιζαν αυτή την περιοχή, εν μέρει αλβανόφωνη, αποτελούν κοινό τόπο στις ελληνικές πηγές του 19ου αιώνα. Τέλος, το διπλανό Μαλακάσι συνδύαζε περιοχές με αντιφατικά γνωρίσματα: Το βορειοδυτικό του τμήμα αποτελούσε τη νοτιότερη και πλέον υπανάπτυκτη προέκταση του κάμπου των Ιωαννίνων στα ανατολικά, παράλληλα με τις κορυφογραμμές της Πίνδου, εκτεινόταν μια σειρά από μεγάλα και διεσπαρμένα κτηνοτροφικά χωριά, οι ρίζες των οποίων ανάγονται ίσως στις αλβανικές επιδρομές του 14ου 15ου αιώνα (Δεμάτι, Γότιστα, Προσγόλι, Κράψη)· νοτιότερα, τα βλαχόφωνα ελευθεροχώρια Συράκο και Καλαρίτες, που την εποχή του Αλή πασά θεωρούνταν εξίσου «κοσμοπολίτικα» με εκείνα του Ζαγορίου, είχαν, μετά την ολοκληρωτική καταστροφή του 1821, μεταπέσει περισσότερο στην κατηγορία του εποχιακού κτηνοτροφικού συνοικισμού, αν και στο Συράκο επιβίωνε ακόμη μία τοπική βιοτεχνία μάλλινων υφασμάτων.


page 345

The southernmost valley, Tsarkovista, hosted a predominantly livestock population, scattered in about 50 villages on the slopes of Olytsikas and in the small valleys of Ano Acheron;
The poverty and "misery" that plagued this area, partly Albanian-speaking, are commonplace in 19th-century Greek sources. Finally, the neighboring Malakassi combined areas with contradictory features: Its northwestern part was the southernmost and most underdeveloped extension of the plain of Ioannina to the east, along the ridges of Pindos, extended a series of large and scattered livestock Villages probably go back to the Albanian influx of the 14th-15th century (villages Demati, Gotista, Prosgoli, Krapsi); In 1821, it became more of a seasonal livestock settlement, although another local woolen cloth factory survived in Syracuse.



σελίδα 56

Οι προσπάθειες να δημιουργηθεί ένα στρώμα εξισλαμισμένου αγροτικού πληθυσμού στις αλβανόφωνες νησίδες των Κουρέντων, της Τσαρκοβίστας και του Πωγωνιού δεν καρποφόρησαν, αφού ο πληθυσμός των περιοχών αυτών όχι μόνο έσπευσε
να αποβάλει σε σύντομο διάστημα τους προσήλυτους.


page 56

Efforts to create a layer of Islamized rural population on the Albanian-speaking islands of Kourenta, Tsarkovista and Pogon failed, as the population of these areas not only rushed to eliminate the converts in a short time.

trdbr1234
01-18-2021, 10:46 PM
The suffix ishte/ište, ishta/išta is indeed of Slavic origin, coming from the Proto-Slavic /-išče (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/-i%C5%A1%C4%8De). Most of the toponymy containing this suffix does seem to reflect a Slavic influence in the forming of the name but not necessarily a Slavic ethnic population. The first recorded toponym in the Balkans having this suffix is from the first half of the 6th century AD somewhere close to Niš in Serbia. It was a minor fort build by the Emperor Justinian and the fort was called Βρατζιστα/Vračišta from the Slavic word 'Vrač' - a healer or a witch doctor and the Slavic suffix 'išta'.

I am not convinced at all tbh. The derivation of Isht from from proto-Slavic Isce is dubious in my opinion. For one, its use is most pronounced in Albania and Macedonia. In addition, derivatives in speech should simplify words, while -esht/-isht and -isce are parallel in complexity, which defies natural speech progression in my opinion. If the Slavic language was a progenitor of the -isht suffix in the Balkans, we wouldn't see -isht layered with other known Slavic suffixes at the rate at which they are. Examples are, Hotishani, Hot -isht -ani or Gollovisht, Goll - ov -isht. The layered suffixes suggest a change in culture, influence and likely language. We have to also consider that -ishte and -eshte are Albanian verbs and serve a similar purpose to -ov and -ic in the Slavic languages. That's my opinion but I am not a linguist.

Aspar
01-20-2021, 01:32 PM
I am not convinced at all tbh. The derivation of Isht from from proto-Slavic Isce is dubious in my opinion. For one, its use is most pronounced in Albania and Macedonia. In addition, derivatives in speech should simplify words, while -esht/-isht and -isce are parallel in complexity, which defies natural speech progression in my opinion. If the Slavic language was a progenitor of the -isht suffix in the Balkans, we wouldn't see -isht layered with other known Slavic suffixes at the rate at which they are. Examples are, Hotishani, Hot -isht -ani or Gollovisht, Goll - ov -isht. The layered suffixes suggest a change in culture, influence and likely language. We have to also consider that -ishte and -eshte are Albanian verbs and serve a similar purpose to -ov and -ic in the Slavic languages. That's my opinion but I am not a linguist.

Of course, this is only reconstruction and it's not actually attested. For all we know, this suffix might have made its way to all the other Slavic languages through Old Church Slavonic which itself was already diverged from proto-Slavic or Common Slavic and had some distinguishing modern day Bulgarian features also found in some Slavic Macedonian dialects around Salonika. For all we know, it might have had received influences of some Albanoid language during the sixth, the seventh and the eighth century before it was attested in the ninth century AD. And the Old Church Slavonic was the most influential among all the other Slavic languages and most modern Slavic languages have borrowed from it.
However, the fact remains that the first toponyms with the suffix 'ište'/'išta' appear in the Balkans appear in the sixth century AD when the Slavs start crossing the river Danube. As I mentioned already, the fort called Βρατζιστα/Vračišta appears in Procopius work "The Buildings", build in the first half of the sixth century AD somewhere around modern day Niš.

Although I believe you are right about that this suffix appears lot more in Albania and Macedonia than any other region. It might be the result of an early intermingling between Slavs and Albanians and interchange of linguistic elements for all we know.

Or could just be coincidence with the similarities because the suffix "ište"/"išta" has different meaning in Albanian and the Slavic languages. As I've just learned from you this suffix denotes possession in the Albanian language just like "evo"/"ovo" is in Macedonian. However "ište"/"išta" denotes quantity or quality. For example, "Selište"/"Селиште" in Macedonian means large village while "Selce"/"Селце" a small village. So there is a fundamental difference. The Albanian case here seems to be similar to Romanian one denoting possession, singular "escu", plural "ešti", which itself is derived from the vulgar Latin "iscus". To further support this is enough to mention that many place names bearing this suffix don't have seemingly Slavic name at all. Such place names that come to mind are the village Labuništa in Norrh Macedonia or the town of Siatišta in Greek Macedonia and many other.

Boletin
01-20-2021, 04:34 PM
The suffix ishte/ište, ishta/išta is indeed of Slavic origin, coming from the Proto-Slavic /-išče (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/-i%C5%A1%C4%8De). Most of the toponymy containing this suffix does seem to reflect a Slavic influence in the forming of the name but not necessarily a Slavic ethnic population. The first recorded toponym in the Balkans having this suffix is from the first half of the 6th century AD somewhere close to Niš in Serbia. It was a minor fort build by the Emperor Justinian and the fort was called Βρατζιστα/Vračišta from the Slavic word 'Vrač' - a healer or a witch doctor and the Slavic suffix 'išta'.

You mean Slavs named the port Vracista ? Because that name could impossibly been named by Justinian if it was Slavic since he was an Illyrian most likely from the Dardania region.

Ishte means ''Is'' or ''Was'' in Albanian from ''Eshte'' which means ''Is'' which is shared with Romanian/Istro-Romanian/Aromanian/Vlach. There are many more words shared.

Hawk
01-20-2021, 04:45 PM
Although i have minimal knowledge on linguistics i just looked at Slavic city names, and none can be found with iste suffix.

The only one is the Wallachian city Targoviste, so Boletin looks like is right, it could be a shared word with Proto-Romanian/Vlach.

Boletin
01-20-2021, 04:45 PM
Well Pr. Rexha has done an excellent work, especially concerning the evidences about the presence of the Christian Albanians in Kosovo during the XV & XVI centuries in the basis of the Ottoman Defters !!

https://www.gazetaere.com/libri-vendbanimet-dhe-popullsia-albane-e-kosoves-recension/


About west Macedonia his list its not complete - it is missing the area of Demir Hisar, Resen\Resnje, Ohrid etc - also he hasn't mentioned all the Albanian-inhabited villages in Bitola\Manastir Nahija year 1468 like: Drevenik, Ostrec, Kishava etc.


From "Бројност, структура и миграции на албанското население според пописите од 1921 и 1931 година – „Арнаути по мајчин јазик“

Page n.160:

In the Bitola Nahija in the XV century there are several villages in which some of the inhabitants have characteristic names for the Albanian population of that time. As an example, we will mention the village of Drevenik, which "welcomes" the Balkan wars with an Albanian Muslim population. There are about twenty families registered in the village, and some of the heads of the families bear the following names: Gin son of Martin, Gon son of Andreja, Marko son of Progon, Gerg son of Arbanash, Kosta Arbanash, Nikola son of Skura and others. In the village of Lazec

https://i.imgur.com/rE90BJx.jpg


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lazhec,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@40.911996,21.360889,4558m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x13572451365fb6fd:0x fa67bbbf65bec948!2sBitola,+Macedonia+del+Nord!3b1! 8m2!3d41.0296773!4d21.3292164!3m4!1s0x13573bffdec0 0dab:0xe23d51c057db501f!8m2!3d40.912118!4d21.37926 58

among the many Slavic names, the following can be found: Nikola Muzak, Leko Arnaut, Stojko Progon, Bard Arnaut, Gin Bard, Nikola Arnaut and others.

In Ostrec

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ostrec,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@40.9295311,21.2661269,9114m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x13572451365fb6fd:0x fa67bbbf65bec948!2sBitola,+Macedonia+del+Nord!3b1! 8m2!3d41.0296773!4d21.3292164!3m4!1s0x13573a1c371c 90ff:0xb73aa1055f4406eb!8m2!3d40.928948!4d21.30274 77

on the slopes of Baba Planina, for which Trifunoski states that the Albanian population in the village began to settle at the end of the XVIII century or at the beginning of the XIX century (Jovan F. Trufunoski, Bitola-Prilep valley, 212), in 1468 part of the inhabitants bear characteristic Albanian names: Gin son of Pano, Leko Arbanash, Gon son of Koke, None Arbanash and the like. Similar names are recorded in several other villages in the Bitola Nahia in 1468 (Turkish documents on the history of the Macedonian people, Extensive census books from the XV century, volume II, edited by Metodija Sokoloski, Skopje, 1973, 156, 179, 231) .

Other Villages, Opticar

https://i.imgur.com/wL5cSVv.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Optichari,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@40.9899243,21.3852072,9106m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x13572451365fb6fd:0x fa67bbbf65bec948!2sBitola,+Macedonia+del+Nord!3b1! 8m2!3d41.0296773!4d21.3292164!3m4!1s0x1357232f6780 6c7f:0x5e5ea509bf1d5afc!8m2!3d40.9891634!4d21.4201 212

- Lavci\Vlashci

https://i.imgur.com/Bu76PhK.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lavci,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@41.0168087,21.2922867,4551m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x13572451365fb6fd:0x fa67bbbf65bec948!2sBitola,+Macedonia+del+Nord!3b1! 8m2!3d41.0296773!4d21.3292164!3m4!1s0x13572546e566 f739:0x94d97fc58057abea!8m2!3d41.0150735!4d21.3035 202


etc etc

There were some Albanians in Kosovo as there were also Romanians known as Vlachs. There were also in Western Macedonia. We don't know what happened to all the natives since there were invasions therefor we shouldn't care about proving much our presence as if we need to justify our presence there today although I agree it's good to educate people about this and it's up to them what they wanna do with the information they receive. Population movements have occurred from all sectors by all people before modern nations of today even had formed.

The name Vlach was a name for a Romanian speaker, an Eastern Latin speaking population that survived the Slavic incursions, and it's well known Albanian and Romanian language share a common origin having lived or originated close to each other. Romanian toponyms and names appear all across medieval Kosovo. This is one of the biggest evidence to show Romanians most likely came from the Dardania region from Romanized Illyrians where they lived next to Albanian speakers. From there they have split into Istro-Romanian, Romanian, Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian. Slavs invaded the region together with Macedonia and Albania later, first started the invasion of the Bulgarian Empire and later the Serbs have started expanding south with their Empire from Rashka. At first they invaded Northern Albania, turning Shkoder into a capital. Assimilations have occurred from all sectors by all people as have migrations. They just use these type of arguments to justify their territorial claims, they don't really care who is more native. I have seen Serbs claiming Northern Albania and inventing numbers how there are 70,000 Serbs there despite it's obvious Serbs invaded the region and aren't indigenous.


Albanian language most likely never developed in the South but that was also still an Illyrian area and it was later colonized by Greeks as Greeks expanded, they colonized coastal Illyria before the Roman period, as a result creating some coastal cities there which still exist today. And during the Roman period the area was under a Greek influence. Therefore the Greeks cannot claim this part either irrelevant where Albanian came from. Despite they claim Epirus Albanians make up the majority in Southern Albania. Albanians did migrate into Greece itself. Though many Albanians there later contributed to the Greek cause.

Most of Bulgaria was under Thracian but it was Hellenized , the Bessi were probably a partially Hellenized tribe, which rules them out as Albanian ancestors. Interesting enough, it was written by Strabo at his time that Macedonia was inhabited by Thracians (Barbarians). He wrote the Greek country was only of what today would be part of Southern Greece. Describing the Epirotes as related to the Illyrians.

Boletin
01-20-2021, 05:21 PM
Although i have minimal knowledge on linguistics i just looked at Slavic city names, and none can be found with iste suffix.

The only one is the Wallachian city Targoviste, so Boletin looks like is right, it could be a shared word with Proto-Romanian/Vlach.

'Ica' 'ice' and 'Ova' seem Slavic influence although this occurs among Albanian toponyms and names and words but I'm not sure about Ishta, Ista or Ishte as this type of suffix occurs among a lot of Albanian words and it has an Albanian meaning as explained above.

Anyway, linguistic evidence shows Albanians were in contact with Slavic speakers way before the written historical mention of Albanians so obviously it has some Slavic influence

Exercitus
01-20-2021, 05:48 PM
From "Das slavische Lehngut im Albanischen 2. Teil ORTSNAMEN"

these are toponyms in Albania composed by a Slavic word and the -ishte suffix !!

https://i.imgur.com/jqmAzsO.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/LXZn7d2.jpg


You have also toponyms like Siatišta which derive from the Vlach word Sati\Siati and the suffix -ishte: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sat#Romanian

Also the Albanian\Vlach word Katund (small village\Hamlet) + suffix -ishte: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/katund#Albanian

Katundishtė - Albania

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Katundisht%C3%AB,+Albania/@40.3316607,20.1410782,14z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x135af02e9ed527dd:0xbdf24 8688e13f4ee!8m2!3d40.3316626!4d20.1585878

vettor
01-20-2021, 05:57 PM
Most of Bulgaria was under Thracian but it was Hellenized , the Bessi were probably a partially Hellenized tribe, which rules them out as Albanian ancestors. Interesting enough, it was written by Strabo at his time that Macedonia was inhabited by Thracians (Barbarians). He wrote the Greek country was only of what today would be part of Southern Greece. Describing the Epirotes as related to the Illyrians.

How much was Hellenized ?, did it become Hellenized while under Macedonian rule ? .................or are we saying Macedonia was also Hellenized ......I am confused by your term

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom

In regards to Strabo......he states the 14 Epirote tribes became weak and dissolved eg molossians ( in modern Albania and NW Greece ) and a Illyrian tribe moved in as well as the taulanti Dardanian tribes........but this did not last long as the macedonian empire took all of the coastal area ( modern Albania ) and held it until the Romans took it from them and their Carthage ( hannibal ) and Macedonian Alliance .............Romans took all the coast to stop resupply of Hannibal from his Macedonian Allies ...................Rome conquered Hannibal in 202BC at Zama and then in 197BC took revenge on Macedonia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Macedonian_War

Exercitus
01-20-2021, 06:23 PM
Or the toponym Kodrishtė = small hill https://fjalorthi.com/kodrisht%C3%AB

So in Albanian the suffix -ishte has a diminuitive function, small village -> Katundishte , small hill -> Kodrishte !!
Etc

Kelmendasi
01-20-2021, 07:18 PM
in as well as the taulanti Dardanian tribes
The Taulantii and Dardani were two separate tribes, the former was not a branch of the latter or vice versa.

Boletin
01-20-2021, 07:38 PM
When it comes to the whole Kosovo thing I think this idea of Albanian migrations from Malesi gradually replacing the Serbs is totally false. While Albanians from the Malesi did migrate into the region during the 18th century as did many Serb families from Montenegro. At that point Kosovo was actually a mixed area. Albanians only made up the majority in the Western part whereas Serbs in the Eastern part. I think it was when Albanians from the Nish and Leskovac area were expelled by the Serbs around the 19th century that many of these Albanians fled into Kosovo and as a result the Serbs that lived there were expelled and Kosovo itself turned into an Albanian enclave. These regions having a dominant Slavic population during the medieval period I think is obviously because they were the politically dominant population back then. There are some part from Stefan Dusans law that says people were required to convert to the Orthodox religion or be expelled and that Catholics were not allowed to practice their religion or they would be punished by death. Albanians were mainly Catholics in the North. There is also another interesting part that says Serbs were not allowed to marry Vlachs.


Anyway, I see Noel Malcolm came out with a new book on Albanians,

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41aKzsBYMSL._SY346_.jpg


https://www.amazon.com/Rebels-Believers-Survivors-Studies-Albanians-ebook/dp/B08CNMYFCD

td120
01-20-2021, 09:48 PM
On -iste Aspar is spot on , the suffix is Slavic and its variations are found in all Slavic territories.

http://oaji.net/articles/2015/1927-1432709951.pdf

vettor
01-20-2021, 11:54 PM
The Taulantii and Dardani were two separate tribes, the former was not a branch of the latter or vice versa.

Didn't Strabo state the Taulantii are with the Galabri and Thunaki as dardanian tribes .............with only Taulantii moving towards the coast due to Thracian push in Moesia ( modern serbia and kosovo ) coming from the North and East ?

there is this book, states the same

1. Dardani
Frederic P. Miller
Published by Alphascript Publishing
ISBN 10: 6130649770 ISBN 13: 9786130649777
New Taschenbuch Quantity available: 1
Seller:
Rheinberg-Buch
(Bergisch Gladbach, Germany)
Rating
Seller Rating: 5-star rating

Book Description Alphascript Publishing. Taschenbuch. Condition: Neu. Neuware - Dardania was the region of the the Dardani Located at the Thraco-Illyrian contact zone, their identification as either Illyrian or Thracian tribe is uncertain, sometimes a separate 'Dardanian ethnic identity' being postulated.In 88 BC, they invaded the Roman province of Macedonia together with the Scordisci and the Maedi.In AD 6, they were conquered by Rome and became part of the province of Moesia Superior (corresponding to present-day Serbia, northern fringes of Macedonia and northern Bulgaria). According to Strabo, they were divided into two sub-groups, the Galabri and the Thunaki. 164 pp. Englisch. Seller Inventory # 9786130649777


The Galabrii were a Romanized Thraco-Illyrian tribe of Dardania alongside the Thunatae. They held a region in what is now eastern Kosovo,

Kelmendasi
01-21-2021, 12:33 AM
Didn't Strabo state the Taulantii are with the Galabri and Thunaki as dardanian tribes .............with only Taulantii moving towards the coast due to Thracian push in Moesia ( modern serbia and kosovo ) coming from the North and East ?

there is this book, states the same

1. Dardani
Frederic P. Miller
Published by Alphascript Publishing
ISBN 10: 6130649770 ISBN 13: 9786130649777
New Taschenbuch Quantity available: 1
Seller:
Rheinberg-Buch
(Bergisch Gladbach, Germany)
Rating
Seller Rating: 5-star rating

Book Description Alphascript Publishing. Taschenbuch. Condition: Neu. Neuware - Dardania was the region of the the Dardani Located at the Thraco-Illyrian contact zone, their identification as either Illyrian or Thracian tribe is uncertain, sometimes a separate 'Dardanian ethnic identity' being postulated.In 88 BC, they invaded the Roman province of Macedonia together with the Scordisci and the Maedi.In AD 6, they were conquered by Rome and became part of the province of Moesia Superior (corresponding to present-day Serbia, northern fringes of Macedonia and northern Bulgaria). According to Strabo, they were divided into two sub-groups, the Galabri and the Thunaki. 164 pp. Englisch. Seller Inventory # 9786130649777


The Galabrii were a Romanized Thraco-Illyrian tribe of Dardania alongside the Thunatae. They held a region in what is now eastern Kosovo,
In all of the historiography that I have seen, the Taulantii are never considered to have been a branch of the Dardani. I have not come across this claim in Strabo's works either. Could you provide the source or quotation that claims this? Also, from what I can see you have only provided the description for the book, nothing about the Taulantii is stated there.

The Taulantii were first mentioned in the 6th century BCE in the works of Hecataeus of Miletus, and since then have always been located around the southeastern Adriatic coast of present-day Albania. Later they are noted by Pliny as being one of the tribes that made up the Illyrii Proprie Dicti or "Illyrians Proper" alongside several other tribes such as the Labeatae and Grabaei. The Taulantii themselves seem to have been related to the Parthini and Abri who likely were branches or part of a former confederacy with the aforementioned tribe.

As for their original homeland, Aleksander Stipčević notes in his book The Illyrians: History and Culture that in earlier times they had a foothold on the northern reaches of the River Drin prior to migrating southwards to their recorded location. This could be true considering that the possibly related Abri were likely located to the north of the Taulantii. No origin from the area of the Dardani is mentioned however.

The two other tribes of Dardania were the Galabrii and Thunatae as you mentioned. The Taulantii were unrelated to either of those.

Aspar
01-21-2021, 12:37 PM
You mean Slavs named the port Vracista ? Because that name could impossibly been named by Justinian if it was Slavic since he was an Illyrian most likely from the Dardania region.

Ishte means ''Is'' or ''Was'' in Albanian from ''Eshte'' which means ''Is'' which is shared with Romanian/Istro-Romanian/Aromanian/Vlach. There are many more words shared.

It was a fort build by Justinian during his reign. All we know comes from the writing of Procopius. As for the name, it wasn't the only exotic name of fort build by Justinian. There are other forts with exotic names such as Σαρματες/Sarmates etc. My opinion is that there were small units of foreigners such as Slavs, Sarmatians, Germanics that entered into Roman service and were serving as border units along the Danube limes. It was a common practice for the Romans to pay mercenaries and some of this forts might indicate the places where these foreigners were stationed. During the reign of Justinian, the Slavs already occupied the territory north of Danube as witnessed by the writings of Jordanes. Also the culture thriving North of Danube during that times called Ipotesti-Candesti has many Slavic elements derived from Prague-Korcak and Penkovka cultures. But Ipotesti-Candesti wasn't homogeneous, there were Sarmatian like elements as well as elements from the former Chernyakhov culture. And although the Romanian scholars try to appropriate it, Ipotesti-Candesti culture seems to have been proto-South Slavic culture.

Interesting that "ishte" as a suffix appears in the Slavic and Albanian. Perhaps the naming with this suffix first appears with the Slavs in the Balkans and after the initial contact with the Slavs the ancestors of the Albanians developed a similar thing just with a different meaning in accordance with their language.

Interestingly enough, in the same book by Procopius there appears a fort called Laberium in Dardania. I know there is a river called Lab in Kosovo although I've heard some explanations that the river's name ultimately comes from the word "Alb" that went under process of liquid metathesis which occured in the Common Slavic. But then again, it's hard to not notice the similarities with the name of the ethnographic region of Laberia in Albania. Even though I don't know the history of the region Laberia in Albania, I've read on the Greek Wikipedia that the name might come from the Albanian expression 'La besen', ultimately from the Latin 'Lapsus' meaning apostasy, which is in relation with the islamization of the region during the Ottoman Empire. But then again there were ancient Illyrian people called Labaetae that might have given the name of the fort which is still interesting because of the similarities with name of the region Laberia in Albania.

Kelmendasi
01-21-2021, 03:04 PM
Interestingly enough, in the same book by Procopius there appears a fort called Laberium in Dardania. I know there is a river called Lab in Kosovo although I've heard some explanations that the river's name ultimately comes from the word "Alb" that went under process of liquid metathesis which occured in the Common Slavic. But then again, it's hard to not notice the similarities with the name of the ethnographic region of Laberia in Albania. Even though I don't know the history of the region Laberia in Albania, I've read on the Greek Wikipedia that the name might come from the Albanian expression 'La besen', ultimately from the Latin 'Lapsus' meaning apostasy, which is in relation with the islamization of the region during the Ottoman Empire. But then again there were ancient Illyrian people called Labaetae that might have given the name of the fort which is still interesting because of the similarities with name of the region Laberia in Albania.
The 'la besėn' explanation that is given on the Greek Wikipedia page for Labėria is most likely just a folk etymology, and so not the true etymology for the name of this region. 'La besėn' itself is a compound of la (leave or to leave) and besė (word of honour or faith), its etymology is not from the Latin lāpsus.

Various etymologies have been given for Labėria, one of the more prominent explanations is that the Lab- particle underwent metathesis from Alb-. This would connect the name to Albėria or Arbėria, the old name used for the Albanian nation. Another etymology (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/l%C3%ABboz%C3%AB#Albanian) I have seen is that the name is derived or related to the Albanian lėbozė (horizon) which came from the more archaic *labeita. In multiple etymologies, Labėria is also connected to the name of the Illyrian Labeatae.

vettor
01-21-2021, 05:00 PM
In all of the historiography that I have seen, the Taulantii are never considered to have been a branch of the Dardani. I have not come across this claim in Strabo's works either. Could you provide the source or quotation that claims this? Also, from what I can see you have only provided the description for the book, nothing about the Taulantii is stated there.

The Taulantii were first mentioned in the 6th century BCE in the works of Hecataeus of Miletus, and since then have always been located around the southeastern Adriatic coast of present-day Albania. Later they are noted by Pliny as being one of the tribes that made up the Illyrii Proprie Dicti or "Illyrians Proper" alongside several other tribes such as the Labeatae and Grabaei. The Taulantii themselves seem to have been related to the Parthini and Abri who likely were branches or part of a former confederacy with the aforementioned tribe.

As for their original homeland, Aleksander Stipčević notes in his book The Illyrians: History and Culture that in earlier times they had a foothold on the northern reaches of the River Drin prior to migrating southwards to their recorded location. This could be true considering that the possibly related Abri were likely located to the north of the Taulantii. No origin from the area of the Dardani is mentioned however.

The two other tribes of Dardania were the Galabrii and Thunatae as you mentioned. The Taulantii were unrelated to either of those.

ok

I checked old and new italian studies ............and they neither have anything except that the Taulantii lived between the towns of Appolonia and Epidamonos ( I think this is modern Durres ) on the coast and north of them was another minor Taulantii people called Abri who lived in the interior.....NE of the Taulantii

Epirotes lived south of Appolonia.......southern neighbours of the Taulantii

and Corinthians built Epidamonos circa 700BC

Kelmendasi
01-21-2021, 05:26 PM
ok

I checked old and new italian studies ............and they neither have anything except that the Taulantii lived between the towns of Appolonia and Epidamonos ( I think this is modern Durres ) on the coast and north of them was another minor Taulantii people called Abri who lived in the interior.....NE of the Taulantii

Epirotes lived south of Appolonia.......southern neighbours of the Taulantii

and Corinthians built Epidamonos circa 700BC
The Taulantii themselves had occupied the coastal area of Durrės since at least the 10th century BCE according to sources. A few of these sources also mention that they may have pushed out the local Bryges, a group likely related to the Phrygians, or Illyrian Parthini.

The occupation of Durrės, and establishment of a mixed Hellenic-Illyrian colony (Epidamnos/Dyrrhachion), by the Corinthian and Corcyrean Greeks in 627 BCE can be linked back to the expansion of the Liburni who were seeking to expand their domain southwards during the 9th century BCE. During this expansion, the Liburni had managed to push the Taulantii out of the present-day area of Durrės, and as a result the Taulantians sought the military aid of the Corinthians and Corcyreans to defeat the Liburnians, who then took the region for themselves.

vettor
01-21-2021, 08:29 PM
The Taulantii themselves had occupied the coastal area of Durrės since at least the 10th century BCE according to sources. A few of these sources also mention that they may have pushed out the local Bryges, a group likely related to the Phrygians, or Illyrian Parthini.

The occupation of Durrės, and establishment of a mixed Hellenic-Illyrian colony (Epidamnos/Dyrrhachion), by the Corinthian and Corcyrean Greeks in 627 BCE can be linked back to the expansion of the Liburni who were seeking to expand their domain southwards during the 9th century BCE. During this expansion, the Liburni had managed to push the Taulantii out of the present-day area of Durrės, and as a result the Taulantians sought the military aid of the Corinthians and Corcyreans to defeat the Liburnians, who then took the region for themselves.

From Italians sources ( even as late as last month ) .....the Liburnians , Settled/Colonised Picene lands, part colonised and brought the Iapodes to Foggia and with this, merge and absorb local Italic as they marched down in Apulian lands and also take Corfu , this all around circa 1000BC .................they lost Corfu to the corinthians in around 700BC

my sources state that the Corinthians began Epidamnos after taking Corfu, I have not seen anything about Liburnians there except for a "pirate" raid

Kelmendasi
01-21-2021, 09:14 PM
my sources state that the Corinthians began Epidamnos after taking Corfu, I have not seen anything about Liburnians there except for a "pirate" raid
John Wilkes in his book The Illyrians (https://www.ancientportsantiques.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/PLACES/Adriatic/Illyrians-Wilkes1996.pdf) quotes an excerpt from Appian's The Civil Wars covering the history of Durrės prior to its colonization by the Corcyreans, although it should be mentioned that there are mythical aspects to this recounting which is to be expected with sources from this time period, that I will skip:

"In a later period the Bryges, returning from Phrygia, seized the city and surrounding territory, then the Taulantii, an Illyrian people, took it from them and the Liburni, another Illyrian people, took it from the Taulantii... Those expelled from Dyrrhachium by the Liburnians obtained help from the Corcyraeans then masters of the sea and drove out the Liburni."

Wilkes then states the following:

"The Illyrian element in the Greek colony appears to be borne out by the contents of early cemeteries, in which Corinthian grave-pottery of the seventh and sixth centuries is found alongside cremation urns of the local type. The successive rule of Taulantii and Liburni in the historical tradition may represent the southward movement of Illyrian peoples during the early Iron Age from around 1000 BC into the area known as Illyris."

However what should be noted is that some have suggested that in this case Liburni may not have referred to the Liburni tribe themselves, but rather referred to groups of indigenous Illyrian peoples from the Adriatic that the Corcyreans and other Greeks had conflicts with. This view is explained in the paper 'Illyrians' in Ancient Ethnographic Discourse (https://www.cairn.info/revue-dialogues-d-histoire-ancienne-2014-2-page-45.htm):

"The study of Čače, however, challenged the assumption of Liburnian thalassocracy and enabled far-reaching conclusions approaching the problem from a different perspective. After reconsidering the existing evidence, he postulated that the stories of the Liburni in the southern Adriatic must be anachronistically insterted. Čače assumed that the origin of these stories lays in the conflicts, which probably occurred between the Corcyreans and indigenous population in the northern Adriatic, as the Corcyreans tried to control maritime routes with the valley of the river Po, in the sixth and fifth century BC. Thus, in his opinion, the Liburni received a negative image through those conflicts with the Corcyreans and were discursively constructed as 'pirates and the enemies of the Greeks' in the Greek perception... Historical memories of such perceptions might have been preserved in some Roman authors. Florus uses the words 'Illyrians' and 'Liburni' as synonyms: "Illyrians or Liburni" (Illyrii seu Liburni)."

Exercitus
01-21-2021, 11:50 PM
In the book written by linguist Pr. R.Ismajli "STUDIES ON THE HISTORY OF THE ALBANIAN LANGUAGE IN A BALKAN CONTEXT"
concerning the Raban-Laban metathetic form, pages 264-269:




....Aleksandar Loma, meanwhile, all acknowledging that the metathetic form of the name Arbėnė - Rabьnь (he also marked Labьnь, which is not documented!) Showed that the Slavs had known the place quite early, before the X century, said that the form Arbanas is a later one, for to draw the conclusion: "the Slavic recognition of this province in today's Albania, according to this finding, would be earlier than their own recognition of the Albanians by that name, which for this people is the oldest known record"
Actually this means something else: the Slavs recognized the country Arbėnė with the respective political status at least in the IX century and this was expressed in a metathetic form, while later the designation for the people adapted according to the situation in the language. Besides Rabьnь we have, for place, rabьnьski qualification. But the forms * Rabъnas, as ethnic, nor * Rabъnija have not been proven.We think the Slavists are right, after whom the mentioned metathesis will have occurred at the turn of the VIII-IX centuries, as F. Ramovš had thought in 1936: in Slavic Carolus (according to Carolus Magnus, who died in 814) gave kralj, with metathesis (Karl> sl. * K ĺ> kralj), while Latin altar: oltarь, without metathesis, while the Christianization of the Slavs took place by the middle of the second half of the IX century.
Ramovš's analysis means that metathesis had operated at the beginning of the century - IX - , but not in its second half. Now, if the metathesis under the Latin name Arbanum had worked, we would have expected in Slavic to have * Rabonь or * Rabona, similar to Albona: Labin in Dalmatia. This also means that the name would have entered Slavonic from the Albanian form, and it would have been Įrbanė, Įrbėnė with emphasis on the initial a, while the unstressed vowels of Albanian following the word (a, ė) will have given vowels of reduced (ь) in Slavic. According to this the assumption can be advanced that by the end of the VIII century the Slavs would have known the space of Arbėn through the non-rhotacized Gheg form. Common form before Rhotacism it was also encountered by the Greeks, which means before the V-VI centuries. I think all of this adds to the arguments for the connection between
Albanum, Alvanon of the XI century to the Albanoi, Albanopolis of the II century a.d, connection of which the Buda (Aleks Buda) supported with arguments of a historical nature. Views of this nature seem to justify the Cabej (Eqerem Cabej) not accepting Skok and others' interpretation of Lab's connection e Labėri with * Alb and * Albėri through the mentioned metathesis. variants * Alb and * Albėri have not been proven, but we have in the north the Illyrian tribe Labeates, in modern times the name of the river Llap and Laplje Selo in Prishtina, etc.


Now actually there are some toponymyc evidences that further corroborate the metathetic form Arbėnė - Rabьnь:

- Rabanofc (Rabanovc) - located in south of Podujeva \ Besiana, northeast Kosova, in the basis of the Serbian Chrysobulls and Ottoman Defters.

https://imgur.com/S8aVnQ0

- Rabini Grobishta - to the Torbesh population of the village Papradnik of Dibra (N.M), from the Tombs of the Arbins (Albanians).

- Raban - pasture in Rusinovo of Bregallnica (N.M). This topic should contain the personal name Arban, quite common in these areas in the medieval period, which with the well-known metathesis of Slavic liquids gave Raban, in this case with the meaning "pasture of Raban / Arbanas", and not as Olga Ivanova puts it (Ivanova 1996: 528) to have come from a personal name assumed by her * Rabanjь, this one from Raban, Rab (e) + an, e rab "slave, servant".

- Rabanov Dol - dry valley in the region of Kamenica in Bregallnica (N.M) (Ivanova 1996: 528). Even this toponym should in fact be explained as above, through metathetic formation by * Arbanov Dol - Arbanas valley

- Raban - Village in Skrapar south Albania, evidenced the first time from the Defter of Albania \ Arvanid year 1431.

Actually even Xh.Ylli in "Das slavische Lehngut im Albanischen" had it difficult to give a persuasive and definitive explanation!

- Rabani, Iskrapar;
1856 (SK) A. B. Zum PN Рабан, РЛФИБ 415, + -j'ķ ohne den alb. Lautwandel n + j> nj, vgl. Bogdan. Die Be- tonung auf der ersten Silbe ist schwierig zu erklären, vgl. Bézhan, Péshtan usw. C. PO 144 Rabaneco.

- Rabani, Iskrapar;
1856 (SK) A. B. To the PN Raban, RLFIB 415, + -j'ķ without the alb. Sound change n + j> nj, see Bogdan. The stress on the first syllable is difficult to explain, see Bézhan, Péshtan etc. C. PO 144 Rabaneco.

vettor
01-22-2021, 12:36 AM
John Wilkes in his book The Illyrians (https://www.ancientportsantiques.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/PLACES/Adriatic/Illyrians-Wilkes1996.pdf) quotes an excerpt from Appian's The Civil Wars covering the history of Durrės prior to its colonization by the Corcyreans, although it should be mentioned that there are mythical aspects to this recounting which is to be expected with sources from this time period, that I will skip:

"In a later period the Bryges, returning from Phrygia, seized the city and surrounding territory, then the Taulantii, an Illyrian people, took it from them and the Liburni, another Illyrian people, took it from the Taulantii... Those expelled from Dyrrhachium by the Liburnians obtained help from the Corcyraeans then masters of the sea and drove out the Liburni."

Wilkes then states the following:

"The Illyrian element in the Greek colony appears to be borne out by the contents of early cemeteries, in which Corinthian grave-pottery of the seventh and sixth centuries is found alongside cremation urns of the local type. The successive rule of Taulantii and Liburni in the historical tradition may represent the southward movement of Illyrian peoples during the early Iron Age from around 1000 BC into the area known as Illyris."

However what should be noted is that some have suggested that in this case Liburni may not have referred to the Liburni tribe themselves, but rather referred to groups of indigenous Illyrian peoples from the Adriatic that the Corcyreans and other Greeks had conflicts with. This view is explained in the paper 'Illyrians' in Ancient Ethnographic Discourse (https://www.cairn.info/revue-dialogues-d-histoire-ancienne-2014-2-page-45.htm):

"The study of Čače, however, challenged the assumption of Liburnian thalassocracy and enabled far-reaching conclusions approaching the problem from a different perspective. After reconsidering the existing evidence, he postulated that the stories of the Liburni in the southern Adriatic must be anachronistically insterted. Čače assumed that the origin of these stories lays in the conflicts, which probably occurred between the Corcyreans and indigenous population in the northern Adriatic, as the Corcyreans tried to control maritime routes with the valley of the river Po, in the sixth and fifth century BC. Thus, in his opinion, the Liburni received a negative image through those conflicts with the Corcyreans and were discursively constructed as 'pirates and the enemies of the Greeks' in the Greek perception... Historical memories of such perceptions might have been preserved in some Roman authors. Florus uses the words 'Illyrians' and 'Liburni' as synonyms: "Illyrians or Liburni" (Illyrii seu Liburni)."


I have that book...which page do you refer to

The liburnian neighbours where the Iapodes/Iagygians ( same people ) who lived in the interior of the coastal Liburni.......it seems they where allied or from the same branch ...................which begs to say that the Histrians are also referred to as Liburnians sometimes.

Kelmendasi
01-22-2021, 02:57 AM
I have that book...which page do you refer to

The liburnian neighbours where the Iapodes/Iagygians ( same people ) who lived in the interior of the coastal Liburni.......it seems they where allied or from the same branch ...................which begs to say that the Histrians are also referred to as Liburnians sometimes.
The excerpt is on page 111.

The Liburni are an interesting case since they are generally referred to as belonging to the wider Illyrian world, but certain linguists and historians consider them to have been linguistically distinct to the bulk of the Illyrian peoples. Based on anthroponyms and onomastics some scholars such as Géza Alföldy placed the Liburnian language within the same branch of Indo-European as Venetic. However, others have argued that the linguistic and cultural situation was more complex. Jürgen Untermann for example broke the territory of the Liburnians into three onomastic areas based on personal names: in the first, most names are similar to those of the Veneti and Histri, with the area roughly corresponding to the north and Istrian coast; the second area is more connected to the Illyrians located to the south, such as the Delmatae and Iapodes/Iapydes; with the third area being unrelated to the neighbouring populations.

vettor
01-22-2021, 04:19 PM
The excerpt is on page 111.

The Liburni are an interesting case since they are generally referred to as belonging to the wider Illyrian world, but certain linguists and historians consider them to have been linguistically distinct to the bulk of the Illyrian peoples. Based on anthroponyms and onomastics some scholars such as Géza Alföldy placed the Liburnian language within the same branch of Indo-European as Venetic. However, others have argued that the linguistic and cultural situation was more complex. Jürgen Untermann for example broke the territory of the Liburnians into three onomastic areas based on personal names: in the first, most names are similar to those of the Veneti and Histri, with the area roughly corresponding to the north and Istrian coast; the second area is more connected to the Illyrians located to the south, such as the Delmatae and Iapodes/Iapydes; with the third area being unrelated to the neighbouring populations.

the realms of ancient language !? .....................some is ok and some is not

https://www.academia.edu/35019586/Greek_Latin_and_Palaeo_Balkan_Languages_in_Contact

The liburni are also responsible for colonizing Picene lands ( marche Italy ) ...............sample R1 is a Liburnian woman, born in Liburnia , died in Picene

The Liburnians with the Iapodes also colonised/conquered Foggia area with the Daunii tribes ( as well as Messapics and other ) before moving down the coast taking all Apulian lands......................there is even a study in Italy looking at Messapic language being a Iapodes/Liburnian language mixing with the conquered Italic tribes forming this Messapic language

The Italians also state.......The Illyrian Iapodi tribe. They are a mixed race of Celts and Illyrians, who used Celtic weapons and tattoos, ...............we known the Messapics and their fellow tribes Daunii also tattooed , even the women

Kelmendasi
01-22-2021, 10:10 PM
In regards to tattooing, Strabo states in his Geographica (https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html) that it was practiced among the other tribes of Illyria as well as in the Iapydes ("they are tattooed like the rest of the Illyrians and the Thracians"). So while there may have been some Celtic influence, the general practice of tattooing likely is of local provenance. Bronze needles used for tattooing have also been found in a number of Illyrian archaeological sites.

Based on the evidence that I have seen, the core element of the Iapydes seems to have been a local Illyrian one. With Celtic and Venetic-Liburnian influences coming in later due to intense cultural contact, especially with the latter.

Kelmendasi
01-22-2021, 11:00 PM
In his book Ancient Languages of the Balkans (https://archive.org/details/AncientLanguagesOfTheBalkans/page/n89/mode/2up), Radoslav Katičić broke down Illyria into three major onomastic areas based on anthroponymy (North-Adriatic, Illyrian, and Delmato-Pannonian), which is important when considering the ethno-linguistic identities and backgrounds of these tribes:

"It could be shown that the native anthroponymy of the Liburnian territory has its own characteristic inventory of names and a special type of semi-Romanized onomastic formula. Such names that recur characteristically in Liburnia area: Aetor, Aplus, Ceunus, Darmocus, Oeplus, Oia, Opiavus, Opia, Oplus, Oplica, Raecus, Suioca, Vadicus, Vescleves, Veturia, Viniocus, Volso, Voltissa. These names are concentrated on the Liburnian territory whereas elsewhere in Illyricum there are but a few random records in places neighbouring on Liburnia... The Liburnian anthroponymy proved soon to be only one part of a much larger onomastic complex which extended also to Histrian and Venetic anthroponymy and reached even the valleys of the eastern Alps. This onomastic system we shall call NORTH-ADRIATIC."

"A similar concentration of the areal distribution of onomastic elements could be established for the Illyrian south-east. The author of this survey made the observation that some of the names connected with the south-east do not appear in the central regions where many native names are recorded. After the publication of the first paper on this subject the inscriptions of a necropolis near Dyrrachium became known, and the names were to a remarkable extent exactly those which one would expect as characteristic for the south-east. Such names that recur characteristically in the south-east area: Annaeus, Bardylis, Kalas, Cilles, Clevatus, Epicadus, Etleva, Etuta, Ettritus, Gentius, Glavus, Grabon, Monunius, Pinnes, Plassus, Pleuratus, Skerdilaidas, Temus, Teutana, Verzo, Zanatis. This onomastic system belongs to the territory of the ancient Illyrian state and can therefore properly be called ILLYRIAN."

"In the central region a third type of anthroponymy could be detected. Its area encompasses the territory of the Delmatae, that of the Iapods, and, in a broader sense, the country of the Pannonian tribes to the south as well as to the north of the Sava. Characteristic names are: Anna, Andes, Aplis, Aplo, Apludus, Baezus, Baezo, Carpius, Carvius, Cato, Cursulavia, Dasant-, Dasto, Diteius, Dito, Germanus, Gresa, Lavius, Lavo, Paius, Paio, Panes, Panentius, Panico, Pant-, Panto, Pinent-, Pinsus, Pladomenus, Plahes, Planus, Platino, Prevo, Samuntius, Samuntio, Scaeva, Scenobarbus, Scenocalus, Seius, Seio, Sinus, Stataria, Staticus, Stennas, Stennato, Suttis, Testimos, Testo, Tizius, Tritanus, Tritano, Tritaneria, Tudania, Varro, Vendes, Vendo... We know too little about this region to draw any final conclusions. But so far one can contend confidently that the anthroponymy of the Pannonian tribes belongs to the same general type as that of the Delmatae and of the Iapods. This onomastic complex we may call DELMATO-PANNONIAN."

Also:

"A special problem is posed by the anthroponymy of the Dardanian territory. Some of the natives names recorded there belong to the Illyrian (Monunius, Etuta, Epicadus, Scerulaedus), some other belong to the Delmato-Pannonian system (Andia, Anna, Dasius, Plannius). In eastern Dardania the native names are predominantly Thracian. It seems that in the west of Dardania an originally Illyrian anthroponymy was superseded by a Delmato-Pannonian stratum."

vettor
01-22-2021, 11:26 PM
In his book Ancient Languages of the Balkans (https://archive.org/details/AncientLanguagesOfTheBalkans/page/n89/mode/2up), Radoslav Katičić broke down Illyria into three major onomastic areas based on anthroponymy (North-Adriatic, Illyrian, and Delmato-Pannonian), which is important when considering the ethno-linguistic identities and backgrounds of these tribes:

"It could be shown that the native anthroponymy of the Liburnian territory has its own characteristic inventory of names and a special type of semi-Romanized onomastic formula. Such names that recur characteristically in Liburnia area: Aetor, Aplus, Ceunus, Darmocus, Oeplus, Oia, Opiavus, Opia, Oplus, Oplica, Raecus, Suioca, Vadicus, Vescleves, Veturia, Viniocus, Volso, Voltissa. These names are concentrated on the Liburnian territory whereas elsewhere in Illyricum there are but a few random records in places neighbouring on Liburnia... The Liburnian anthroponymy proved soon to be only one part of a much larger onomastic complex which extended also to Histrian and Venetic anthroponymy and reached even the valleys of the eastern Alps. This onomastic system we shall call NORTH-ADRIATIC."

"A similar concentration of the areal distribution of onomastic elements could be established for the Illyrian south-east. The author of this survey made the observation that some of the names connected with the south-east do not appear in the central regions where many native names are recorded. After the publication of the first paper on this subject the inscriptions of a necropolis near Dyrrachium became known, and the names were to a remarkable extent exactly those which one would expect as characteristic for the south-east. Such names that recur characteristically in the south-east area: Annaeus, Bardylis, Kalas, Cilles, Clevatus, Epicadus, Etleva, Etuta, Ettritus, Gentius, Glavus, Grabon, Monunius, Pinnes, Plassus, Pleuratus, Skerdilaidas, Temus, Teutana, Verzo, Zanatis. This onomastic system belongs to the territory of the ancient Illyrian state and can therefore properly be called ILLYRIAN."

"In the central region a third type of anthroponymy could be detected. Its area encompasses the territory of the Delmatae, that of the Iapods, and, in a broader sense, the country of the Pannonian tribes to the south as well as to the north of the Sava. Characteristic names are: Anna, Andes, Aplis, Aplo, Apludus, Baezus, Baezo, Carpius, Carvius, Cato, Cursulavia, Dasant-, Dasto, Diteius, Dito, Germanus, Gresa, Lavius, Lavo, Paius, Paio, Panes, Panentius, Panico, Pant-, Panto, Pinent-, Pinsus, Pladomenus, Plahes, Planus, Platino, Prevo, Samuntius, Samuntio, Scaeva, Scenobarbus, Scenocalus, Seius, Seio, Sinus, Stataria, Staticus, Stennas, Stennato, Suttis, Testimos, Testo, Tizius, Tritanus, Tritano, Tritaneria, Tudania, Varro, Vendes, Vendo... We know too little about this region to draw any final conclusions. But so far one can contend confidently that the anthroponymy of the Pannonian tribes belongs to the same general type as that of the Delmatae and of the Iapods. This onomastic complex we may call DELMATO-PANNONIAN."

Also:

"A special problem is posed by the anthroponymy of the Dardanian territory. Some of the natives names recorded there belong to the Illyrian (Monunius, Etuta, Epicadus, Scerulaedus), some other belong to the Delmato-Pannonian system (Andia, Anna, Dasius, Plannius). In eastern Dardania the native names are predominantly Thracian. It seems that in the west of Dardania an originally Illyrian anthroponymy was superseded by a Delmato-Pannonian stratum."

I think the terminology of what is what changes on who wrote the history .....example for Rome, Illyria went from ancient Liburnia to the modern border of Montenegro including the Pannonians, but not venetic or histrians

Ancient scholars state that venetic-liburnian-histrian people are the most northern illyrian population with Tergese ( Trieste ) as its centre

Italian scholars state Illyria went from Histria to northern Albania but the pannonians are not Illyrians

Halstatt scholars state Illyria started in eastern Austria to Dalmatia ............might be via Strabo texts

Illyrian revolt states these tribes as illyrian via Pliny census

https://i.postimg.cc/Dyg1DJvb/illyrian-revolt.png (https://postimages.org/)


I think the true answer will never be found as people where mixing a lot due to trade and "others"

Hawk
01-23-2021, 10:51 AM
I think the Illyrians were a mixture between earlier Bronze Age Indo-Europeans and incoming Danubian tribes (Middle Danubian groups living south of Knovitz-Lusatians) during Late Bronze Age. Hence why there is confusion because some of the tribes didn't admix and kept their unique customs.

Hawk
01-23-2021, 11:48 AM
I think the Illyrians were a mixture between earlier Bronze Age Indo-Europeans and incoming Danubian tribes (Middle Danubian groups living south of Knovitz-Lusatians) during Late Bronze Age. Hence why there is confusion because some of the tribes didn't admix and kept their unique customs.

To add to this, Gimbutas thought part of the ancestors of Illyrians were part of Koszidor horizont.


Around the time of the Thera eruption important transformations occurred in the Carpathian Basin, today covering
Hungary and parts of Austria, Slovakia, the Ukraine, Romania, Serbia and Croatia (Fig. 1). This is the so-called Koszider
Period, which corresponds to the last phase of the Middle
Bronze Age (MBA) according to the Hungarian terminology,
and represents a transition to the Late Bronze Age (LBA).
The assessment of the period has been controversial among
both Hungarian and central European scholars.
The eponymous bronze hoards that had been found in
the uppermost layers of the tell settlement of DunaśjvįrosKosziderpadlįs were published by A. Mozsolics and I. Bóna
in the 195os together with other hoards of similar composition. The burial of the hoards – based on the traditional concept of culture and then dated to 135o B.C. – was connected
to the attack of the mobile pastoralist warriors of the
»Tumulus Culture« from southern Germany, whose appearance brought an end to the flourishing »Tell Cultures« of the
Danube and Tisza regions1. Accordingly, the Koszider
Period was considered a short, war-ridden and turbulent phase.

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/18406091.pdf


Harry Mountain was of the opinion that this Tumulus Warriors heavily influenced Dacians as well. I am not sure if part of Illyrian ancestors were this Tumuli Warriors or those Tell and Tisza people who ran away after they lost the war.

Kelmendasi
01-24-2021, 01:58 AM
I saw on a Facebook post (https://www.facebook.com/Projekti-Rrenjet-101700961530810/) that the Rrėnjėt project has added a mtDNA chart (http://rrenjet.com/statistikat/#Linjat_femerore) to their statistics page. The chart is made up of 101 samples as of now, and the three most dominant haplogroups are H at ~48.5% (49/101), U at ~13.9% (14/101), and J at ~8.9% (9/101). Unfortunately, specific clusters for many of the samples have not been defined as of yet. However, for those which have been defined, H55b1 (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H55b1/), H12a (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H12a/), and J1c2e* (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/J1c2e*/) have shown up.

On the Yfull MTree, haplogroup H55b1 so far is shared with five Albanians and four samples from Serbia, with all nine sharing a TMRCA of ~1,150 ybp. I am unsure if these samples from Serbia are indeed ethnic Serbs, or if they are Kosovo Albanians considering that Yfull does not recognize Kosovo as an independent country, but it is still possible that they're Serbs. There are also two samples from Serbia upstream at H55b*.

H12a is shared between three Albanian samples, three Italian samples, one Serbian sample, one Hungarian sample, and a single Finnish sample. They all share a TMRCA of ~1,450 ybp. What's interesting is that H12* (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H12*/) was found in an ancient sample (R1283) from early medieval Rome (539-1179 CE) whose paternal haplogroup was J2b-PF7321 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF7321/). The parallel cluster, H12b (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H12b/), so far is only made up of three Italian samples so H12 as a whole maybe has some connection to the Italian Peninsula.

J1c2e* has been found in multiple samples from the Balkans, including; Albania, Croatia, Romania, Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria. However, it has also been found in samples from the Netherlands, Italy, and Turkey and unlike the other two clusters this group has an older TMRCA of ~6,300 ybp. The downstreams of J1c2e are found across Europe and even in Western Asia (Iran).

trdbr1234
01-24-2021, 11:18 PM
Not sure, but Dropull in this instance may refer to the wider ecclesiastical region of Dryinoupolis, which included the wider region of Gjirokaster, which of course contains both Greek and Albanian speaking villages. Also, concerning Delvina, Kelmendasi recently posted an article that references the inhabitants of this region as speaking Greek. But of course, there are Albanian speaking christian villages in this region such as Sopik, Muzina, and Mursi. Either way, my point is that the occurrence of these names in the medieval defters doesnt prove or disprove the Greekness of these people today.

You might be interested in this reply by a "anonymous" writer from Dropull published in gazetatema(One of the most read news sites in Albania)

Te pathenat e Dropullit
http://www.gazetatema.net/2021/01/24/te-pathenat-e-dropullit/

In my opinion, his arguments against the documentary are very weak. He fails to address 90% of documents and facts raised in the documentary. He also bases his conclusion on dodgy and nationalistic viewpoints which are factually wrong. Namely, he takes the viewpoint that Albanians didn't inhabit Epirus during the late Middle Ages, which is categorically wrong.

Kelmendasi
01-24-2021, 11:43 PM
I have looked at the Yfull Mtree for more clusters that have at least two Albanian samples on the tree, and have found a few:

One mtDNA cluster with two Albanian samples is H13a1a1e (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H13a1a1e/). Alongside the Albanians, this group is represented by two samples from Serbia, two from Poland, and an ancient DNA sample (KRA009, 1158-1254 CE) from the medieval site of Krakauer Berg in the Saxony-Anhalt state of Germany. This sample, like the other samples from this site, was likely of Slavic origin. The TMRCA for this group is ~1,750 ybp, and this alongside its distribution makes me think that a Slavic origin is most likely.

Another group under H is H14a4a (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H14a4a/), and this cluster also has two Albanian samples so far who have a TMRCA of ~700 ybp. However, upstream at H14a4* (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H14a4/) there is only a single Italian sample and the TMRCA for this group is ~4,400 ybp which is rather old.

H6a2b (https://yfull.com/mtree/H6a2b/) is also represented by two Albanians on the tree, alongside two Serbian samples and a Slavic Macedonian from Greek Macedonia (Pella). These samples share a TMRCA of ~1,250 ybp. What is interesting is that the other clusters under H6a2 (https://yfull.com/mtree/H6a2/) have more Northwestern European distributions, with clusters found in places such as Ireland and Denmark. H6a2a (https://yfull.com/mtree/H6a2a/) has been found in a Viking Age sample from Dorset in southwest England (VK449, 970-1025 CE).

Sorcelow
01-25-2021, 12:10 AM
You might be interested in this reply by a "anonymous" writer from Dropull published in gazetatema(One of the most read news sites in Albania)

Te pathenat e Dropullit
http://www.gazetatema.net/2021/01/24/te-pathenat-e-dropullit/

In my opinion, his arguments against the documentary are very weak. He fails to address 90% of documents and facts raised in the documentary. He also bases his conclusion on dodgy and nationalistic viewpoints which are factually wrong. Namely, he takes the viewpoint that Albanians didn't inhabit Epirus during the late Middle Ages, which is categorically wrong.

What is Ferit Duka's actual argument, is it that because the names dont end with "s", the inhabitants aren't Greek? In Liakopoulos' book on the 1462 census of the Peloponnese, most surnames lack the "s" as well, even in villages that are characterized as ethnically Greek. We often see names like "Yani Yorgoplo" or "Yorgo Stilyano"

Or is it that the vast majority of names are typically Albanian and not Greek? Do names like Jorgo and Jani appear? Do they appear in conjunction with names like Gjon and Gjin?

If there were no Greeks in the region, How does he explain the Greek toponyms that were recorded there nearly a century earlier in the defter of 1431? For example, Schoriades, Lachanokastro, Pontikates, Mavropul, Drimades, Finiki, Mesopotam, Krayne, Ayo Andre, among others?

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/141747682_429473645040829_6576517309029870644_n.jp g?_nc_cat=111&ccb=2&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=t7SUTgujUCUAX8zhBlI&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=b5d7bf5ce685edcef4f7677120f03ccc&oe=603466E6

Honestly, I'm not even sure purchasing Ferit's work (if it is available in the United States), is even worth it when he so obviously has an anti-Greek agenda. His clearly nationalistic approach renders his work questionable at best.

Kelmendasi
01-25-2021, 02:18 AM
I believe one of the main arguments is that the vast majority of the anthroponymy recorded in Dropull are Albanian variants or diminutives of typical Christian names that were found across Albanian-speaking regions during the medieval. And so, this, alongside other things referenced by the authors (such as documents of movements from Greece), suggests that there was a process of Hellenization in the region during the sixteenth century and onwards. Though I have not read Duka's book so I am not 100% sure as to his opinion, this is just the impression I got from the documentary.

As for the anthroponymy, in the village of Goranxi tė Sipėrme it is referenced from Duka's work that Gjon and Gjin were the most dominant personal names and patronyms. With the former showing up thirty times, and the latter showing up around twenty times. From the excerpt (https://imgur.com/AApUWNU) I have seen, names such as Jorgo or Jani do not appear in this village. However in Derviēan, whilst Albanian names seem to be most dominant here as well, certain individuals such as Jani Gjini, Jorgo Gjoni, Jorgo Babi, Jani Ēuni, and Jani Dragoi do show up.

Sorcelow
01-25-2021, 04:06 AM
I believe one of the main arguments is that the vast majority of the anthroponymy recorded in Dropull are Albanian variants or diminutives of typical Christian names that were found across Albanian-speaking regions during the medieval. And so, this, alongside other things referenced by the authors (such as documents of movements from Greece), suggests that there was a process of Hellenization in the region during the sixteenth century and onwards. Though I have not read Duka's book so I am not 100% sure as to his opinion, this is just the impression I got from the documentary.

As for the anthroponymy, in the village of Goranxi tė Sipėrme it is referenced from Duka's work that Gjon and Gjin were the most dominant personal names and patronyms. With the former showing up thirty times, and the latter showing up around twenty times. From the excerpt (https://imgur.com/AApUWNU) I have seen, names such as Jorgo or Jani do not appear in this village. However in Derviēan, whilst Albanian names seem to be most dominant here as well, certain individuals such as Jani Gjini, Jorgo Gjoni, Jorgo Babi, Jani Ēuni, and Jani Dragoi do show up.

It seems that he centers his case around the village of Goranxi, many inhabitants of which possessed typical Albanian personal names (although its unclear whether they formed the majority). But he admits that this village had a higher amount of Albanian personal names than do the other villages of Dropoli.

"The first names Gjon and Gjin as well as other Albanian first names are find in the same register (Defter) - more here and less elsewhere -even in other villages of Dropull, including the village of Derviēan, near Gjirokastėr"

Regarding Dervican, he only gives us those few examples which you have mentioned in your post, but admits that the village was under heavy "hellenization", which just seems to be a way of dodging the fact that the Greek character of names dominated there. And the names that he does mention are usually accompanied by a Greek name, such as "Jani Gjini", "Jorgo Gjoni", and even "Gjon Papadopulo". To me, that suggests a Greek-Albanian symbiosis in the borderlands between Greek and Albanian speech.

He also admits that the majority of names in Sofratika were Greek.

"While in Sofratikė (among 61 heads of household) the first name Gjin (Gjin Pavllo) is encountered only once, and the first name Gjon twice among the heads of household: "Land of the widow Marie, daughter of Gjon, in place of Gjon. In this village there are other Albanian names such as: Niko Ballēi, Dhimo Ballēi, Mano Ballēi, Vreto Leka, Niko Papileka, Staso Dimali. From names of heads of household in this village dominate those of origin Greek such as Jani, Jorgo, Pavllo, Aleks etc."

http://www.akad.gov.al/ash/images/PDF/2008StudiaAlbanica1.pdf

Anyway, I dont want to keep posting on this thread since it is dedicated to Albanian genetics, so this will be my last post on the topic.

Kelmendasi
01-25-2021, 04:48 PM
Du Cange in his Historia Byzantina duplici commentario illustrata of 1680.
Another interesting thing about Du Cange's genealogy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pal_Kastrioti#/media/File:Kastrioti_Family_Du_Cange_(1680).jpg) (which is largely based on Giovanni Andrea Angelo Flavio Comneno's one) on the Kastrioti is that he mentions that the son of Konstantin Kastrioti Mazreku, and father of Gjon Kastrioti, was actually called Gjergj (Georgius in the original) as opposed to Pal (Paulo in the original). This Gjergj Kastrioti is also given the title of Lord of Mati, a region called Umenestria which may correspond to the village of Ujmisht to the south of Kukės, and Castoriae (Aemathiae, Umenestria, & Castoriae Princeps). The name Pal is apparently only brought up in Gjon Muzaka's Breve memoria de li discendenti de nostra casa Musachi of 1510.

Muzaka's work is rather dubious since he downplays the significance and importance of many other Albanian noble families, he even claims that Pal Kastrioti, who according to him was Skanderbeg's grandfather, only held two villages: Sinė and Gardhi i Poshtėm (Signa and Gardi Ipostesi in the original) which are located in the former tribal and ethnographic region of Ēidhėn in Dibėr. This is unlikely as it would mean that his son, Gjon Kastrioti, was able to extremely expand the dominion of the Kastrioti within the timeframe of a single generation.

Should also be mentioned that the name Pal or its other variants such as Paulo, were not inherited as name for either of his grandsons or even great-grandsons. On the other hand names such as, Gjergj (Georgius, Giorgio, etc), Gjon (Giovanni, Iohannes, etc), and Konstantin (Constantinus, Constantino, etc) were inherited by later Kastrioti.

Rrenjet.
02-16-2021, 07:56 PM
I would like to clarify some things mentioned on the South Slavic thread on R-Z2705. It seems more appropriate to do that here.

- The density of R-Z2705 in Albanians of course varies by region, but among Y-DNA lines that spread around 1200-1700 ago, it is by far both the most frequent overall, and the most evenly spread. It is only low <5% in these districts (rrethe): Bulqize 3.8% (2/53); Elbasan 4.2% (1/24); Permet 4.8% (1/21). Everywhere else, including Western Macedonia, it is found more frequently. Even Diber e Madhe is currently at 7.7% (1/13). And keep in mind that these figures are still higher than the percentage in neighboring countries, excluding Montenegro.
- Among current subclades, only BY147912* and BY199059 have not been found in Albanians. Even these include respectively one person from Sanxhak, and one Serb from Kosove who claims Albanian ancestry (still to be verified of course). Please refer to www.rrenjet.com/databaza-publike/ for latest results and subclades.
- Bulgaria and Romania have no basal R-Z2705 results. This was an intriguing idea a few years ago when some haplotypes had not been SNP-verified, but now we know their classification, and there are no Bulgarian or Romanian results that can belong to the oldest clades. From various studies, haplotypes that have any chance of being in undiscovered R-Z2705+, BY38894- and BY105603- are found in Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania (both Gheg and Tosk), Greece, Skopje, and maybe Sicily.

So it is simply unthinkable for R-Z2705 to not have played a central role in the Albanian genesis during the Early Middle Ages. Of course this does not mean that regions with lower density of it are any less Albanian because of it, as many other Y-DNA lines were involved in this process, and each region has its specific history and haplogroup distribution.

trdbr1234
02-16-2021, 09:26 PM
Mendoj qe R-Z2705 krijon shume ndjeshmeri edhe nuk besoj se do kemi bisedim te sinqert ne lidhje me historikun e kesaj linje. Linjat bazale Bullgare te R-Z2705 i ke ne haplotree'n qe keni krijuar, po ashtu i keni ne Y-full. Nuk kuptoj pse beni deklarate ne kundershtim me informacionet qe vet i keni krijuar. Dua po ashtu te theksoj qe eshte komplet e parendesishme neqoftese R-Z2705 ka qene nga antikiteti, ka ardhur dje, pardje, ka qene e Skenderbeut, a Akilit, apo nga stepet e Rusise. Ky fakt as nuk i kombtarizon as i c'kombtarizon poseduesit e ketij haplogrupit. Por ne baze te infomacionet e deri tanishme, eshte disi e qarte qe R-Z2705, me vecanti te nje nendege te saj R-BY105603 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY105603/), nuk perputhet me shperndarjen te supozuar te komb formimit Arberor. Mbase keni sopozime te forta qe priten te verifikohen, mbase keni informacione qe nuk i keni publikuar. Neqoftese kam bere gabim fatal ne kete shtjellim, do kisha shume dishire te na informoje. Po te keni informacionet shtese mbi atyre qe keni publikuar, do isha mirenjohes.

Rrenjet.
02-16-2021, 10:15 PM
Mendoj qe R-Z2705 krijon shume ndjeshmeri edhe nuk besoj se do kemi bisedim te sinqert ne lidhje me historikun e kesaj linje. Linjat bazale Bullgare te R-Z2705 i ke ne haplotree'n qe keni krijuar, po ashtu i keni ne Y-full. Nuk kuptoj pse beni deklarate ne kundershtim me informacionet qe vet i keni krijuar. Dua po ashtu te theksoj qe eshte komplet e parendesishme neqoftese R-Z2705 ka qene nga antikiteti, ka ardhur dje, pardje, ka qene e Skenderbeut, a Akilit, apo nga stepet e Rusise. Ky fakt as nuk i kombtarizon as i c'kombtarizon poseduesit e ketij haplogrupit. Por ne baze te infomacionet e deri tanishme, eshte disi e qarte qe R-Z2705, me vecanti te nje nendege te saj R-BY105603 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY105603/), nuk perputhet me shperndarjen te supozuar te komb formimit Arberor. Mbase keni sopozime te forta qe priten te verifikohen, mbase keni informacione qe nuk i keni publikuar. Neqoftese kam bere gabim fatal ne kete shtjellim, do kisha shume dishire te na informoje. Po te keni informacionet shtese mbi atyre qe keni publikuar, do isha mirenjohes.

I'm answering in English just in case some foreigners may be interested. Besides the last sentence, I only presented the data, which does not care about sensitivities. And I did not mention the more distant ancestry of this line at all, as it was not relevant, only its spread from the Early Middle Ages onwards.

Which Bulgarian lines are you referring to specifically? YFull and our tree only have one under R-BY218801 who is actually from SE Serbia, and whose family has a tradition of being from Montenegro, and in fact, he matches results from the Montenegrin part of Sanxhak, and more distantly Albanians from Nikaj, and all the rest are under either R-BY105603 or R-Y32147. The fact that all Bulgarians and Romanians in studies and projects lack R-Z2705+, BY38894- & BY105603- haplotypes was mentioned in our article too, so I am not sure which parts you find inconsistent.

We do have some new results which are not in the tree but they have been published on the results page I linked above. We will put them on the tree very soon, right after a couple more high resolution tests are completed.

Kelmendasi
02-16-2021, 10:23 PM
Which R1b-Z2705 clusters among the Bulgarians do you specifically consider to be basal? As can be seen of the phylogenetic tree and on Yfull, the bulk of Bulgarian Z2705 is in fact under the common cluster of Y32147 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y32147/). They are primarily under Y32147>FT166340>Y37280 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y37280/) and Y32147>Y126039 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y126039/). Even in these positions, the Bulgarians are not basal. There is a basal R1b-Y32147>FT166340 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT166340*/) Albanian sample from Shkodra who forms a new parallel cluster, as well as clusters such as FT166340>Y207622 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y207622/) which is found in Albanians from Lunxhėri and a sample from Prizren, and FT166340>Y217583 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y217583/) which is represented by Montenegrin samples from around Podgorica (I believe the Zeta Lowlands).

In regards to R1b-Y32147>Y126039, cluster Y126039>Y82919 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y82919/) which is parallel to the Bulgarian cluster seems to have an Albanian association. The sample from Mecca, Saudi Arabia, is in fact with origin from Sandžak. His brotherhood claims to have stemmed from the Bukumiri of Bratonožići, as historical documents confirm, the Bukumiri were an Albanian tribe or fis that had migrated and formed a katun (semi-nomadic pastoralist community) in Piper and Bratonožić, later being absorbed. Oral traditions of Sandžak even mention the presence of the Bukumiri as an Albanian but Orthodox brotherhood. The Y82919>BY53973 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY53973/) come from various brotherhoods that also claim origin from Albanian brotherhoods, such as the Muriqi who were a branch of the Kelmendi.

The only non-Y32147 clusters present among the Bulgarians are R1b-Z2705>BY218801>FT62850 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT62850/) or R1b-Z2705>BY105603>Y182782 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y182782/). BY218801 has also been found in multiple samples from Sandžak that claim to have descended from the Kuēi, they form BY218801>FT140430 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT140430/) which is parallel to the Bulgarian BY218801>FT62850. There are also the two Albanian BY218801>Y153706 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y153706/) who originate from the Nikaj of Tropoja. R1b-BY105603 as a whole, even on Yfull, is represented by multiple Albanians, both Geg and Tosk.

Rrenjet.
02-16-2021, 10:33 PM
In regards to R1b-Y32147>Y126039, cluster Y126039>Y82919 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y82919/) which is parallel to the Bulgarian cluster seems to have an Albanian association. The sample from Mecca, Saudi Arabia, is in fact with origin from Sandžak. His brotherhood claims to have stemmed from the Bukumiri of Bratonožići

I have not heard of this tradition of Bukmir for the sample under Y126039. Could you send me an email about this info? One thing to add to to your post, under Y126039 we have a new result from Diber e Madhe, also on the public results page.

Kelmendasi
02-16-2021, 10:44 PM
I have not heard of this tradition of Bukmir for the sample under Y126039. Could you send me an email about this info? One thing to add to to your post, under Y126039 we have a new result from Diber e Madhe, also on the public results page.
Sure, I'll send you the link. I am unsure if the sample on Yfull himself is from the brotherhood descending from the Bukumiri (according to oral tradition), however the link I have does mention that one brotherhood from the same village is also R1b-Y82919+.

Kelmendasi
02-18-2021, 03:01 AM
I see that a new map has been uploaded to the Wikipedia page on the Albanian tribes:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Northern_Albanian_Tribal_Regions.png/800px-Northern_Albanian_Tribal_Regions.png

The map itself looks very nice and the tribal boundaries are very well defined. However, from what I can tell, the map is largely based off of the one produced by Robert Elsie in his The Tribes of Albania: History, Society and Culture. And so has some of the same problems as Elsie's one.

For starters I see that there are some errors in regards to the tribal territory of the Kelmendi. The map excludes the Boga and its surrounding environs from the tribe, whilst this may seem logical since Boga formed its own bajrak (territorial unit) up until around 1897 when it joined the Kelmendi, it was a part of the Kelmendi fis as is shown through oral traditions and even Y-DNA testing. So in my opinion, Boga should be a part of the Kelmendi on the map. I also see that the map does not include the settlements of Vuthaj, Martinaj, and some of the villages of the Valbona and Rugova valleys as a part of the tribe when in fact they were. I also cannot really tell if it is on the map, but the Kelmendi-Shala border should be after Qafa e Pejės which belonged to the former tribe.

In regards to Shala, their eastern border should include the village of Rrogam in Tropoja which on the map is depicted as being a part of Krasniqi when in reality it is not. As was also mentioned above, the Valbona Valley technically did not belong to the Krasniqi fis since the region was settled by families from Kelmendi (Vuthaj specifically) maintained relations with the aforementioned tribe.

I also think that the small tribal group of Koja e Kuēit in eastern Montenegro, bordering the Trieshi and Kuēi, should be represented on the map. Same goes for the Morina of northeastern Albania.

Kelmendasi
02-19-2021, 03:30 PM
I have recently picked up Muhamet Tėrnava's book Studime pėr Mesjetėn which contains various essays on medieval Albanian history. An interesting essay is Prania e Dhjetra Toponimeve Shqiptare apo me Bazė Antroponimike Shqiptare nė Sanxhakun e Vuēitėrnės nė Gjysmėn e Dytė tė Shekullit XVI - tė Panjohura nga Historiografia e Deritashme. This essay covers toponyms recorded in the sanjak of Vushtrri (also referred to as Vuēitėrn, Vučitrn, and Vıēıtırın/Vulēitrin) of the second half of the sixteenth century (1566-74) which either have an Albanian etymology or are derived from Albanian anthroponyms.

He notes that within this sanjak, toponyms of Albanian etymology are found in a total of eleven nahiyahs. In the nahiyah of Morava, which at the time had the town of Prishtina as its centre since Gjilan was still a village, six toponyms are recorded:

1) Kolgjin - The name of this village is without a doubt derived from the compound of two typically Albanian anthroponyms; Kolė and Gjin. In the defter, it is suggested that this village was abandoned as its rayah population had left for the village of Stubla Glava which was located near Kolgjin.

2) Dukagjince - This village is recorded as having a total of nine households, whom according to Tėrnava did not contain typical Serbian anthroponyms. This name is derived from the names Dukė and Gjin, although it cannot be ruled out that the inhabitants of this village originally came from the Dukagjini Highlands or the Dukagjini Plateau.

3) Gonishte - It is recorded with a total of 36 households, headed by a certain Nikollė Gjoni. Considering that the village name is derived from the Albanian anthroponym Gjon (recorded as Gon), this Nikolla was likely the son or descendant of the original founder or head of the village.

4) Lleshnica - This village had a total of fifteen households and its name is derived from the Albanian personal name Llesh.

5) Gjinovce - The village is recorded with only two heads of households. The name is derived from the Albanian Gjin, however the form of the toponym is Slavicized, suggesting that there may have been a shift in spoken language.

6) Mirash - Recorded with 23 households, and clearly derived from the anthroponym Mirash.

In the nahiyah of Gollak in eastern Kosovo, two villages are recorded which could only have gotten their form through use in the Albanian language; Rataj with eleven households, and Komaj with eight. the suffix of -aj is characteristic for the Albanian language.

Many other examples are given, all of which confirm the presence of an Albanian-speaking population even in eastern Kosovo since at least the sixteenth century CE.

broder
02-19-2021, 06:10 PM
R-Y87891 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y87891/) should be the Bukumiri/Bukėmiri cluster.

Kelmendasi
02-19-2021, 06:40 PM
R-Y87891 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y87891/) should be the Bukumiri/Bukėmiri cluster.
Do the samples belonging to this cluster have tradition of descending from the Bukumiri?

Pribislav
02-19-2021, 08:19 PM
Do the samples belonging to this cluster have tradition of descending from the Bukumiri?

A few of them do. This clade has so far the strongest case for being one of the Bukumiri lineages.

trdbr1234
02-20-2021, 12:09 AM
I'm answering in English just in case some foreigners may be interested. Besides the last sentence, I only presented the data, which does not care about sensitivities. And I did not mention the more distant ancestry of this line at all, as it was not relevant, only its spread from the Early Middle Ages onwards.

Which Bulgarian lines are you referring to specifically? YFull and our tree only have one under R-BY218801 who is actually from SE Serbia, and whose family has a tradition of being from Montenegro, and in fact, he matches results from the Montenegrin part of Sanxhak, and more distantly Albanians from Nikaj, and all the rest are under either R-BY105603 or R-Y32147. The fact that all Bulgarians and Romanians in studies and projects lack R-Z2705+, BY38894- & BY105603- haplotypes was mentioned in our article too, so I am not sure which parts you find inconsistent.

We do have some new results which are not in the tree but they have been published on the results page I linked above. We will put them on the tree very soon, right after a couple more high resolution tests are completed.

There are multiple Bulgarians on the Y-full tree whom all sit on *. I find inconsistent your statement that there aren't basal clusters among Bulgarians, when all the Bulgarians on the current Y-full tree sit on *. I imagine there was a misunderstanding as to what I was referring to. Looking at PH970 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R) on FTDNA's Haplotree, we find that there is a greater representation and diversity of Z2705 among South Slav populations. As far as I am aware, Yfull is over represented by Northern Albanians and under represented by Bulgarians specifically. We do also find that there is a *Bulgarian on the PH970 * tree as there is also an Albanian. I am unsure if these samples are also represented on Yfull. Is this the Bulgarian individual the same as the one you refer to as having origins from Serbo-Montenegrins within the R-BY218801 tree?

Z2705 is an interesting line and seems to have an interesting story so I await your new article on it. I think your articles so far have been fair and balanced and I hope you continue with that trend.

trdbr1234
02-20-2021, 12:32 AM
Which R1b-Z2705 clusters among the Bulgarians do you specifically consider to be basal? As can be seen of the phylogenetic tree and on Yfull, the bulk of Bulgarian Z2705 is in fact under the common cluster of Y32147 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y32147/). They are primarily under Y32147>FT166340>Y37280 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y37280/) and Y32147>Y126039 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y126039/). Even in these positions, the Bulgarians are not basal. There is a basal R1b-Y32147>FT166340 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT166340*/) Albanian sample from Shkodra who forms a new parallel cluster, as well as clusters such as FT166340>Y207622 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y207622/) which is found in Albanians from Lunxhėri and a sample from Prizren, and FT166340>Y217583 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y217583/) which is represented by Montenegrin samples from around Podgorica (I believe the Zeta Lowlands).

In regards to R1b-Y32147>Y126039, cluster Y126039>Y82919 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y82919/) which is parallel to the Bulgarian cluster seems to have an Albanian association. The sample from Mecca, Saudi Arabia, is in fact with origin from Sandžak. His brotherhood claims to have stemmed from the Bukumiri of Bratonožići, as historical documents confirm, the Bukumiri were an Albanian tribe or fis that had migrated and formed a katun (semi-nomadic pastoralist community) in Piper and Bratonožić, later being absorbed. Oral traditions of Sandžak even mention the presence of the Bukumiri as an Albanian but Orthodox brotherhood. The Y82919>BY53973 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY53973/) come from various brotherhoods that also claim origin from Albanian brotherhoods, such as the Muriqi who were a branch of the Kelmendi.

The only non-Y32147 clusters present among the Bulgarians are R1b-Z2705>BY218801>FT62850 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT62850/) or R1b-Z2705>BY105603>Y182782 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y182782/). BY218801 has also been found in multiple samples from Sandžak that claim to have descended from the Kuēi, they form BY218801>FT140430 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT140430/) which is parallel to the Bulgarian BY218801>FT62850. There are also the two Albanian BY218801>Y153706 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y153706/) who originate from the Nikaj of Tropoja. R1b-BY105603 as a whole, even on Yfull, is represented by multiple Albanians, both Geg and Tosk.

I think what you mentioned is certainly interesting. I just don't think it relates much to what I was referring to. Specifically, its migration before the Albanian founder effects. Rrenjet project thinks that it spread from the Western Balkans. I personally disagree with this. I think it spread from Bullgaria in the early Middle Age migrations.

trdbr1234
02-20-2021, 12:42 AM
In the nahiyah of Gollak in eastern Kosovo, two villages are recorded which could only have gotten their form through use in the Albanian language; Rataj with eleven households, and Komaj with eight. the suffix of -aj is characteristic for the Albanian language.


It is interesting that the -aj suffix is recorded in 1500's. Would you know if that is the earliest recorded instance of -aj in surnames or toponomy?

Kelmendasi
02-20-2021, 02:45 AM
It is interesting that the -aj suffix is recorded in 1500's. Would you know if that is the earliest recorded instance of -aj in surnames or toponomy?
I will try and look into it deeper, however as of now I have checked the Venetian cadastre of Scutari of 1416-17, and there is only a total of three toponyms and last names with the suffix -aj. The toponym is that of Marinaj which corresponds to a settlement located near the mountain of Maranaj to the northeast of Shkodra. The last names on the other hand are that of Grizhaj and Krezetaj. Only one individual is mentioned with the family name Grizhaj, Brankė Grizhaj from the village of Ljushtė or Jushta in Malėsi. The Krezetaj is a certain Dabesej Krezetaj from Grizhė.

Should be noted that many toponyms that in the present day end with the suffix -aj, are recorded with the suffix -ani in these registers. For example, Belaj is recorded in the cadastre as Belani and Pulaj as Pulani.

Kelmendasi
02-20-2021, 02:56 AM
I think what you mentioned is certainly interesting. I just don't think it relates much to what I was referring to. Specifically, its migration before the Albanian founder effects. Rrenjet project thinks that it spread from the Western Balkans. I personally disagree with this. I think it spread from Bullgaria in the early Middle Age migrations.
In my opinion, there is simply not much evidence at all to support an expansion from Bulgaria during the medieval. As I and other users presented above, the Bulgarian samples do not occupy any basal positions that would have implications for the whole of Z2705. If you know of any, then by all means share them as it would be interesting without a doubt if that was the case. On the other hand, basal clusters such as BY38894 (Y32147-) have been found in a number of Albanians, both Geg and Tosk.

The fact that some of the Bulgarians occupy seemingly basal positions on their clusters on the Yfull tree does not mean that they are indeed more basal, it simply means that they have not yet formed a new parallel cluster since the matches have not been uploaded to the tree. It is clear from looking at the trees that all of the Bulgarian clusters have parallel clusters that are present in the west of the Balkans, none are found to the east. On top of this, one of the Bulgarians (R1b-BY218801) has oral traditions of having come from Montenegro. The fact that his closest matches are from this country further adds credence to this tradition and an origin to the west. Not to mention the BY218801>Y153706 cluster made up exclusively of Albanians.

This phylogenetic tree shows things rather clearly:

https://rrenjet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/R-Z2705-1.03.png

trdbr1234
02-20-2021, 04:27 AM
In my opinion, there is simply not much evidence at all to support an expansion from Bulgaria during the medieval. As I and other users presented above, the Bulgarian samples do not occupy any basal positions that would have implications for the whole of Z2705. If you know of any, then by all means share them as it would be interesting without a doubt if that was the case. On the other hand, basal clusters such as BY38894 (Y32147-) have been found in a number of Albanians, both Geg and Tosk.

The fact that some of the Bulgarians occupy seemingly basal positions on their clusters on the Yfull tree does not mean that they are indeed more basal, it simply means that they have not yet formed a new parallel cluster since the matches have not been uploaded to the tree. It is clear from looking at the trees that all of the Bulgarian clusters have parallel clusters that are present in the west of the Balkans, none are found to the east. On top of this, one of the Bulgarians (R1b-BY218801) has oral traditions of having come from Montenegro. The fact that his closest matches are from this country further adds credence to this tradition and an origin to the west. Not to mention the BY218801>Y153706 cluster made up exclusively of Albanians.

This phylogenetic tree shows things rather clearly:

https://rrenjet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/R-Z2705-1.03.png

All basal clades are yet unidentified clusters. I find it very unlikely that there was a movement of people from Albania into Bulgaria in the time period of 500-700AD coinciding with the migration period and Bulgarian expansion. Migrations of this period occurred the other direction. As we see most other potentially migration derived lineages following the same path. In addition to this, Southeastern Montenegro/Sanxhak region, which is where Z2705 is thought to have expanded from in Western Balkans, is not currently considered to have taken part in the Komani culture that Proto-Albanians arose from. Which is why Z2705 has experienced an explosive growth similar to I2a Din. That is what I see from the current evidence. I'll change my mind once these basal Albanians are revealed or new information comes out.

trdbr1234
02-20-2021, 04:45 AM
I will try and look into it deeper, however as of now I have checked the Venetian cadastre of Scutari of 1416-17, and there is only a total of three toponyms and last names with the suffix -aj. The toponym is that of Marinaj which corresponds to a settlement located near the mountain of Maranaj to the northeast of Shkodra. The last names on the other hand are that of Grizhaj and Krezetaj. Only one individual is mentioned with the family name Grizhaj, Brankė Grizhaj from the village of Ljushtė or Jushta in Malėsi. The Krezetaj is a certain Dabesej Krezetaj from Grizhė.

Should be noted that many toponyms that in the present day end with the suffix -aj, are recorded with the suffix -ani in these registers. For example, Belaj is recorded in the cadastre as Belani and Pulaj as Pulani.

That is interesting. So 1416 is the earliest mention of -aj toponomy that can be linked to Albanian. Would you know of any material that goes into depth with these -suffixes? I think knowing how these suffixes evolved adds so much insight .

Rrenjet.
02-20-2021, 06:15 AM
There are multiple Bulgarians on the Y-full tree whom all sit on *. I find inconsistent your statement that there aren't basal clusters among Bulgarians, when all the Bulgarians on the current Y-full tree sit on *.

Once again, all those Bulgarians have matches with west Balkan samples. They are not basal R-Z2705, but basal R-Z2705>BY38894>BY218801, basal R-Z2705>BY38894>Y32147>FT166340, etc. Having an * does not indicate old presence in an area if the subclade is not old and there are no others * samples to support it. Here is an example of an *: https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y113006/. This seemingly "basal" sample does not add much to the oveall Albanian diversity because it's a young branch. Diversity is manifested in basal or old clades coming from one region or one people, and there isn't even one such case in Bulgaria.


Looking at PH970 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R) on FTDNA's Haplotree, we find that there is a greater representation and diversity of Z2705 among South Slav populations. As far as I am aware, Yfull is over represented by Northern Albanians and under represented by Bulgarians specifically... ...We do also find that there is a *Bulgarian on the PH970 * tree

FTDNA's tree is incomplete of course as many have tested through Dante, YSEQ, Y-Elite, etc. Our tree includes all known Bulgarian results from all companies. In addition, at FTDNA you see low resolution results (they don't distinguish * there), such as the PH970 Bulgarian you mentioned, who is not PH970*, but R-Z2705/PH970>BY147912>BY105603 (likely further Y182782), and who is also in our tree.

The supposed over-representation is another misconception, often mistakenly brought up at Poreklo without evidence. R-Z2705 is ~2.2% in Bulgarians, or ~198.000 Bulgarians out of 7m., and ~14% in Albanians, so depending on the estimate of Albanian people being 7-9 million, the total is 0.98-1.26 million R-Z2705 Albanians. There are 4-5x as many Albanians as there are Bulgarians with R-Z2705, and until last month (and when we made the tree), this was the exact ratio of total high resolution tests as well. If there is over-representation, it is especially among Serbs, Montenegrins and people from Sanxhak, while Greece and Macedonia are under-represented.

However, it is very important to understand that this is irrelevant, as among thousands of Bulgarian and Romanian haplotypes from commercial tests and scientific studies, there isn't even one haplotype that could be a basal R-Z2705. Potential R-Z2705* or at least R-Z2705>BY147912* haplotypes have only been found in the western half of the Balkans.

Finally, I don't think it is appropriate to lump all South Slavs into one bunch here. Bulgarians have few isolated results and limited diversity (even Sicily alone may have similar or more diversity than Bulgaria), while Montenegrins and Serbs are more diverse and have some Medieval clusters. It is also important to remember where most of these results come from: Piper, Kuc, Plave, Guci, possibly Bukemire, Shkoder Lake, Prizren, Vushtrri. There are also two lines among Serbs of Bosnia, but I am sure you can see the trend here.

I should emphasize that with branches that have a huge expansion after a long bottleneck, it is never absolutely certain where the actual common ancestor lived, as it is only one person. However, R-Z2705 diversity demonstrates the initial expansion took place in western or, maybe west-central Balkans, not Bulgaria.

eastara
02-20-2021, 06:22 AM
Although Bulgarians first started ordering Big Y for E-V13, now they are much behind the Albanians and Serbs. Bulgarians don't tend to form any STR clusters like the Albanians, where it is easier to understand the picture by testing only one deeper. We don't have any government or private sponsorships, only people who have more funds are able to afford the deep tests.

Rrenjet.
02-20-2021, 06:59 AM
To add to the discussion on Dropull a few weeks back, we currently have a member from one of the few villages of the area that were traditionally considered Albanian (though it seems many inhabitants today identify as Greek), undergoing high resolution testing. His haplotype suggests he will be under of E-FGC11450, where he will likely form a subclade with an Albanian from deeper in Laberi. Two already established Albanian clusters under FGC11450 are around 1000-1300 years old, and one of them has a sub-cluster of results from Laberi around 800-900 years old (tmrca).

Johane Derite
02-20-2021, 11:14 AM
I will try and look into it deeper, however as of now I have checked the Venetian cadastre of Scutari of 1416-17, and there is only a total of three toponyms and last names with the suffix -aj. The toponym is that of Marinaj which corresponds to a settlement located near the mountain of Maranaj to the northeast of Shkodra. The last names on the other hand are that of Grizhaj and Krezetaj. Only one individual is mentioned with the family name Grizhaj, Brankė Grizhaj from the village of Ljushtė or Jushta in Malėsi. The Krezetaj is a certain Dabesej Krezetaj from Grizhė.

Should be noted that many toponyms that in the present day end with the suffix -aj, are recorded with the suffix -ani in these registers. For example, Belaj is recorded in the cadastre as Belani and Pulaj as Pulani.

It is probable that in Old Albanian, -aj would have been -anj (examples: Standard Albanian. Bėj vs Old Gegė. Bānj) and that -anj would have been rendered as -ani without the appropriate orthographic representation.

Bruzmi
02-20-2021, 01:10 PM
R-Y87891 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y87891/) should be the Bukumiri/Bukėmiri cluster.

R-FT166340 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT166340/) has an interesting spread overall among Albanians. Does anyone know the location of the 3 new Albanian samples?

The samples which now appear in Bulgaria are possibly linked to recent (17th century> ) migrations. Albanians migrated to Bulgaria in the Ottoman era and Montenegrins came in Bulgaria as industrial workers in the 19th century. For example, Boro Vukmirović (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boro_Vukmirovi%C4%87) was born in Bratsigovo.

The results from Sandžak strongly suggest that the recording of Bukėmiri settlement there in the 18th century is historically correct.

Rrenjet.
02-20-2021, 01:57 PM
R-FT166340 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT166340/) has an interesting spread overall among Albanians. Does anyone know the location of the 3 new Albanian samples?

They are all here: https://rrenjet.com/databaza-publike/.

Kelmendasi
02-20-2021, 02:31 PM
All basal clades are yet unidentified clusters. I find it very unlikely that there was a movement of people from Albania into Bulgaria in the time period of 500-700AD coinciding with the migration period and Bulgarian expansion. Migrations of this period occurred the other direction. As we see most other potentially migration derived lineages following the same path. In addition to this, Southeastern Montenegro/Sanxhak region, which is where Z2705 is thought to have expanded from in Western Balkans, is not currently considered to have taken part in the Komani culture that Proto-Albanians arose from. Which is why Z2705 has experienced an explosive growth similar to I2a Din. That is what I see from the current evidence. I'll change my mind once these basal Albanians are revealed or new information comes out.
I personally have not seen any of those basal samples from unidentified clusters.

The movement does not necessarily have to have occurred between the sixth and eighth centuries CE, this just means that the common ancestor lived during this time frame. In regards to the Sandžak region and the Montenegrin samples, as has been explained before, their origins can be directly traced back to the north of Albania or one of the Albanian tribes that occupied eastern Montenegro. So ultimately the origin comes back to Albania.

Historically there was also a movement of Albanian-speakers into Bulgaria. In his works, Tėrnava states that in a register of 1576 the village of Arnaudlar is recorded. According to later sources, this village was split into Gorni Arbanas (Upper Arbanas) and Dolni Arbanas (Lower Arbanas). These two then becoming identified with the present-day villages of Gornoslav and Dolnoslav which are located to the southeast of Plovdiv. In the same defter, a certain Rad Arnaud is recorded as being the head of the village of Dudene, also located near Plovdiv. A number of other examples are given which testify to a movement of Albanians to the east.

Kelmendasi
02-20-2021, 02:41 PM
It seems that a number of Albanians are also recorded in early sixteenth century Thessaloniki. In the city itself, the following have clearly Albanian names; Stamad Arnaud, Jorgji Arnaud, Mihal Kali, Alleshio Gomar, Jorgji Gomar, Jorgji Arnaut, Pavli Gjon, Kosta Gon (Gjon), Jorgji Arnaud, Gon (Gjon) Moder; Gjor, widow of Gjon; Dimitri Arnaud.

Korabi
02-20-2021, 04:32 PM
I personally have not seen any of those basal samples from unidentified clusters.

The movement does not necessarily have to have occurred between the sixth and eighth centuries CE, this just means that the common ancestor lived during this time frame. In regards to the Sandžak region and the Montenegrin samples, as has been explained before, their origins can be directly traced back to the north of Albania or one of the Albanian tribes that occupied eastern Montenegro. So ultimately the origin comes back to Albania.

Historically there was also a movement of Albanian-speakers into Bulgaria. In his works, Tėrnava states that in a register of 1576 the village of Arnaudlar is recorded. According to later sources, this village was split into Gorni Arbanas (Upper Arbanas) and Dolni Arbanas (Lower Arbanas). These two then becoming identified with the present-day villages of Gornoslav and Dolnoslav which are located to the southeast of Plovdiv. In the same defter, a certain Rad Arnaud is recorded as being the head of the village of Dudene, also located near Plovdiv. A number of other examples are given which testify to a movement of Albanians to the east.

Quite a few of the Bulgarian samples are located in North Bulgaria, in or near to areas settled by Albanian Catholics/Christians
I noticed one of the Bulgarian samples branching off Albanians is from Gabrovo, which neighbors Tarnovo, another settlement of Albanians. They settled up to Varna even.

Some settled in Thrace though it was not common.

Sorcelow
02-20-2021, 04:37 PM
To add to the discussion on Dropull a few weeks back, we currently have a member from one of the few villages of the area that were traditionally considered Albanian (though it seems many inhabitants today identify as Greek), undergoing high resolution testing. His haplotype suggests he will be under of E-FGC11450, where he will likely form a subclade with an Albanian from deeper in Laberi. Two already established Albanian clusters under FGC11450 are around 1000-1300 years old, and one of them has a sub-cluster of results from Laberi around 800-900 years old (tmrca).

Do you know which village? Is it Frashtan or Lugar?

broder
02-20-2021, 05:38 PM
R-FT166340 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT166340/) has an interesting spread overall among Albanians. Does anyone know the location of the 3 new Albanian samples?

The samples which now appear in Bulgaria are possibly linked to recent (17th century> ) migrations. Albanians migrated to Bulgaria in the Ottoman era and Montenegrins came in Bulgaria as industrial workers in the 19th century. For example, Boro Vukmirović (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boro_Vukmirovi%C4%87) was born in Bratsigovo.

The results from Sandžak strongly suggest that the recording of Bukėmiri settlement there in the 18th century is historically correct.

No, looks like the rrenje dude uploaded them. Nice to see Albanian samples all over that branch. However, when it comes to their reporting, which ethnographic region they come from, what Fis they belong to, last name etc. I wouldn't trust their data one bit.

Most if not all post middle ages era. Check out this fella under R-Y126039 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y126039/) who's Pomak - so probably Albanians that moved there during Ottoman era as administrators or solders.

Some people here seem to also forget that there were chain of Albanian settlements from southwest Bulgaria/northern Greece all the way to Constantinople/Istanbul that totally assimilated. Fan Stilian Noli was born in Ibriktepe, which then was an Albanian settlement.

broder
02-20-2021, 05:40 PM
Do the samples belonging to this cluster have tradition of descending from the Bukumiri?

Yes, as Pribislav pointed out they have a tradition of being from Bratonozic/Bukumiri.

trdbr1234
02-20-2021, 11:07 PM
Once again, all those Bulgarians have matches with west Balkan samples. They are not basal R-Z2705, but basal R-Z2705>BY38894>BY218801, basal R-Z2705>BY38894>Y32147>FT166340, etc. Having an * does not indicate old presence in an area if the subclade is not old and there are no others * samples to support it. Here is an example of an *: https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y113006/. This seemingly "basal" sample does not add much to the oveall Albanian diversity because it's a young branch. Diversity is manifested in basal or old clades coming from one region or one people, and there isn't even one such case in Bulgaria.

Were getting unnecessarily technical here. Are Albanian clades "basal" and Bulgarian or Serbian clades "not yet determined". Unnecessary semantics in my opinion as basal does infer "not yet determined"




FTDNA's tree is incomplete of course as many have tested through Dante, YSEQ, Y-Elite, etc. Our tree includes all known Bulgarian results from all companies. In addition, at FTDNA you see low resolution results (they don't distinguish * there), such as the PH970 Bulgarian you mentioned, who is not PH970*, but R-Z2705/PH970>BY147912>BY105603 (likely further Y182782), and who is also in our tree.

Does this Bulgarian also have Albanian-Montenegrin origins?



The supposed over-representation is another misconception, often mistakenly brought up at Poreklo without evidence. R-Z2705 is ~2.2% in Bulgarians, or ~198.000 Bulgarians out of 7m., and ~14% in Albanians, so depending on the estimate of Albanian people being 7-9 million, the total is 0.98-1.26 million R-Z2705 Albanians. There are 4-5x as many Albanians as there are Bulgarians with R-Z2705, and until last month (and when we made the tree), this was the exact ratio of total high resolution tests as well. If there is over-representation, it is especially among Serbs, Montenegrins and people from Sanxhak, while Greece and Macedonia are under-represented.

I don't read Porelko. Except for the thread dedicated to my line which I find very interesting.

You are categorically wrong here. You are comparing Bulgarian representation on the Z2705 tree and this is bound to fail because the low representation of Z2705 in Bulgarians is prone to samples bias.

When comparing to EV13 tree for example, which is abundant in Albanians and Bulgarians, we notice that Albanians have a representative coefficient of 4 when we don't include Kosovar Albanians, and a coefficient of 2.6 when we include Kosovar Albanians. So, 2.6-4 times more represented on Yfull per capita than Bulgarians.

Bulgarians on Ev13 tree - I counted 15
Albanians on Ev13 tree - I counted 31

Population of Bulgaria - 7 Million
Population of Albania - 2.8 Million w/ Kosova - 4.3 Million

Bulgarian EV13 - 20%
Albanian EV13 - 26%


However, it is very important to understand that this is irrelevant, as among thousands of Bulgarian and Romanian haplotypes from commercial tests and scientific studies, there isn't even one haplotype that could be a basal R-Z2705. Potential R-Z2705* or at least R-Z2705>BY147912* haplotypes have only been found in the western half of the Balkans.

By Z2705*, are we referring to an Albanian individual that may be "basal" or "not yet determined"?

Y37280 establishes Z2705's presence in Bulgaria to at least 1250ybp. Do these two Bulgarians on the haplotree you've created also have Albanian origin? Must every Bulgarian within Z2705 have an Albanian explanation? Z2705 is not the only clade with this migration pattern, you know. There are multiple clades that seemingly have dispersed from Western Bulgaria in the Late Middle Ages and show a similar pattern of distribution.

In regards to the Bulgarian on BY218801, I wouldn't personally rely on assumed origin stories or distant claims as these are generally wrong past only a few generations. Although I wouldn't discount it entirely given his match to an Albanian from Nikaj and a individual from Kuc, Montenegro. Although I'd prefer to see a TMRCA of a few individuals in the Western Balkans older than the current Bulgarian split from the Kuc individual as a means of factually proving the Montenegrin origin claim of the Bulgarians individual.


Finally, I don't think it is appropriate to lump all South Slavs into one bunch here. Bulgarians have few isolated results and limited diversity (even Sicily alone may have similar or more diversity than Bulgaria), while Montenegrins and Serbs are more diverse and have some Medieval clusters. It is also important to remember where most of these results come from: Piper, Kuc, Plave, Guci, possibly Bukemire, Shkoder Lake, Prizren, Vushtrri. There are also two lines among Serbs of Bosnia, but I am sure you can see the trend here.

I should emphasize that with branches that have a huge expansion after a long bottleneck, it is never absolutely certain where the actual common ancestor lived, as it is only one person. However, R-Z2705 diversity demonstrates the initial expansion took place in western or, maybe west-central Balkans, not Bulgaria.

I don't disagree with you here. I am using information you are providing to reach my conclusions. If we are disagreeing on the same set of information then that shows that your generation and tabulation of that information was honest. I do await new results on Z2705 as I do think it is an interesting line.

Kelmendasi
02-20-2021, 11:44 PM
Looks like there is a new R1b-Y37280* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y37280*/) Albanian sample alongside the Bulgarian one.

trdbr1234
02-21-2021, 12:40 AM
I personally have not seen any of those basal samples from unidentified clusters.

This makes 0 sense.


The movement does not necessarily have to have occurred between the sixth and eighth centuries CE, this just means that the common ancestor lived during this time frame. In regards to the Sandžak region and the Montenegrin samples, as has been explained before, their origins can be directly traced back to the north of Albania or one of the Albanian tribes that occupied eastern Montenegro. So ultimately the origin comes back to Albania.

Historically there was also a movement of Albanian-speakers into Bulgaria. In his works, Tėrnava states that in a register of 1576 the village of Arnaudlar is recorded. According to later sources, this village was split into Gorni Arbanas (Upper Arbanas) and Dolni Arbanas (Lower Arbanas). These two then becoming identified with the present-day villages of Gornoslav and Dolnoslav which are located to the southeast of Plovdiv. In the same defter, a certain Rad Arnaud is recorded as being the head of the village of Dudene, also located near Plovdiv. A number of other examples are given which testify to a movement of Albanians to the east.

Sure thing. When you let imagination run wild, anything is possible. Everyone Albanian! From anywhere to everywhere. From forever to infinity. You can all sleep better now. Z2705 is super duper Albanian from 10,000 years ago in the Palsagian Era. It is solved!

trdbr1234
02-21-2021, 12:50 AM
Looks like there is a new R1b-Y37280* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y37280*/) Albanian sample alongside the Bulgarian one.

The "Yet to be identified" Albanian * on the tree doesn't change much unfortunately.

Kelmendasi
02-21-2021, 12:57 AM
This makes 0 sense.



Sure thing. When you let imagination run wild, anything is possible. Everyone Albanian! From anywhere to everywhere. From forever to infinity. You can all sleep better now. Z2705 is super duper Albanian from 10,000 years ago in the Palsagian Era. It is solved!
What does not make sense? I simply stated that I had not seen any of samples that you were mentioning. But perhaps I mistook what you meant.

I do not think it is necessary to exaggerate and misrepresent. It is just a fact that many of the samples from Sandžak especially have traditions of direct paternal Albanian descent, you can look up their family names by going on the Bosniak project website if you want and see for yourself. Even for the samples that do not have traditions of Albanian descent per se, an Albanian origin seems likely just by looking at historical records. The defter of the sanjak of Shkodra of 1485-97 shows that the Bushati and Bukumiri tribes had established semi-nomadic pastoral communities or katuns in Piper. So I do not see why it would be so outrageous even if these samples did have distant Albanian paternal origins.

trdbr1234
02-21-2021, 01:18 AM
What does not make sense? I simply stated that I had not seen any of samples that you were mentioning. But perhaps I mistook what you meant.

You basically did this

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LeanCoordinatedDuckbillcat-small.gif


I do not think it is necessary to exaggerate and misrepresent. It is just a fact that many of the samples from Sandžak especially have traditions of direct paternal Albanian descent, you can look up their family names by going on the Bosniak project website if you want and see for yourself. Even for the samples that do not have traditions of Albanian descent per se, an Albanian origin seems likely just by looking at historical records. The defter of the sanjak of Shkodra of 1485-97 shows that the Bushati and Bukumiri tribes had established semi-nomadic pastoral communities or katuns in Piper. So I do not see why it would be so outrageous even if these samples did have distant Albanian paternal origins.

Because bro, it is a bit more complicated than just saying a few individuals here and there. Or one tribe here and there a few hundred years ago when TMRCA of individuals far exceeds the migrations of the time period you are discussing. The problem with Z2705 has multiple complications. Samples that expand the formation of the current clades can solve it.

Kelmendasi
02-21-2021, 01:29 AM
You basically did this

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LeanCoordinatedDuckbillcat-small.gif



Because bro, it is a bit more complicated than just saying a few individuals here and there. Or one tribe here and there a few hundred years ago when TMRCA of individuals far exceeds the migrations of the time period you are discussing. The problem with Z2705 has multiple complications. Samples that expand the formation of the current clades can solve it.
Okay, great.

Guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Johane Derite
02-21-2021, 11:29 AM
This makes 0 sense.


Sure thing. When you let imagination run wild, anything is possible. Everyone Albanian! From anywhere to everywhere. From forever to infinity. You can all sleep better now. Z2705 is super duper Albanian from 10,000 years ago in the Palsagian Era. It is solved!

What makes 0 sense is claiming bulgaria has more basal clades, then not presenting any evidence for such an obviously false claim and instead changing the subject or flinging accusations.

And now making banal comments about "10,000" years when all obvious evidence points to a simple conclusion that it is linked with proto-Albanians.

Rrenjet.
02-22-2021, 01:19 PM
R-FT166340 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT166340/) has an interesting spread overall among Albanians. Does anyone know the location of the 3 new Albanian samples?

The samples which now appear in Bulgaria are possibly linked to recent (17th century> ) migrations. Albanians migrated to Bulgaria in the Ottoman era and Montenegrins came in Bulgaria as industrial workers in the 19th century. For example, Boro Vukmirović (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boro_Vukmirovi%C4%87) was born in Bratsigovo.

The results from Sandžak strongly suggest that the recording of Bukėmiri settlement there in the 18th century is historically correct.

Apart from the three new samples on YFull, we also have a R-FT166340 member from Shkoder. Two of the new samples are from Laberi, while the other one from further East in Gjirokaster, so it's a very common line in this whole area.

Regarding Bukemir and other Late Medieval clans of Montenegro and NW Albania, as the historical record is recently being enriched with newly found documents, especially from Venice and the Vatican, it is of critical importance for us to supplement it with DNA data associated with these clans. Bukemir is one whose ancestry we are currently investigating. I can say that two tests have already been conducted in the Bukemire village in Pult, and both results are E-M81, so no relation to the possible Bukemir results from Montenegro/Sanxhak was found. We are looking for other potential brotherhoods in Albania or Kosove that may be related to the Medieval Bukemir. If you are aware of any such cases, please let me know.

On our results' reliability, I have to stress that we only report the results of our project members. We do not report results from previous members, random results from matches, etc., surprisingly a widespread malpractice. Not only participation, but also surname publication is optional (as 24 of our members, including some of the posters here, can testify), so there is absolutely no need for us to report anything but the simple truth as it is reported to us. And if anyone suspects the veracity of even one of our thousand listed results, you are more than welcome to let me know, and I will personally verify it, though I am confident the list is accurate in its entirety.

Rrenjet.
02-22-2021, 01:21 PM
Do you know which village? Is it Frashtan or Lugar?

Lugar. One of the main families/brotherhoods in fact, so it will be an important result for this village.

Rrenjet.
02-22-2021, 01:43 PM
Were getting unnecessarily technical here. Are Albanian clades "basal" and Bulgarian or Serbian clades "not yet determined". Unnecessary semantics in my opinion as basal does infer "not yet determined"


I did not use "not yet determined", only basal. Regardless, it is not at all about semantics, but subclade diversity. I was very clear, Bulgaria and Romania do not have haplotypes that could be R-Z2705* or R-Z2705>BY147912*. These haplotypes have only been found west of Skopje.


Does this Bulgarian also have Albanian-Montenegrin origins?

I am not sure which one you are referring to. The only one who is not under R-Y32147 is originally from clan Kuc of Montenegro. Among the remaining three, one is supposedly from SE Serbia, and two more, as far as I am aware, have no indications of ancestry out side Bulgaria (one of these two is Pomak).


When comparing to EV13 tree for example, which is abundant in Albanians and Bulgarians, we notice that Albanians have a representative coefficient of 4 when we don't include Kosovar Albanians, and a coefficient of 2.6 when we include Kosovar Albanians. So, 2.6-4 times more represented on Yfull per capita than Bulgarians.

Bulgarians on Ev13 tree - I counted 15
Albanians on Ev13 tree - I counted 31
Population of Bulgaria - 7 Million
Population of Albania - 2.8 Million w/ Kosova - 4.3 Million
Bulgarian EV13 - 20%
Albanian EV13 - 26%

I was fully accurate. The 2.2% of R-Z2705 in Bulgaria comes from this study (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779) with 808 samples, while in FTDNA projects it may be even a bit lower than that. For the % among Albanians, the sample is just over 1000, so both figures are reliable.

All things considered, with currently available data Bulgarians are less diverse in R-Z2705 than Albanians, Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia, Greece and possibly even Italians.

Kelmendasi
02-22-2021, 01:59 PM
Regarding Bukemir and other Late Medieval clans of Montenegro and NW Albania, as the historical record is recently being enriched with newly found documents, especially from Venice and the Vatican, it is of critical importance for us to supplement it with DNA data associated with these clans. Bukemir is one whose ancestry we are currently investigating. I can say that two tests have already been conducted in the Bukemire village in Pult, and both results are E-M81, so no relation to the possible Bukemir results from Montenegro/Sanxhak was found. We are looking for other potential brotherhoods in Albania or Kosove that may be related to the Medieval Bukemir. If you are aware of any such cases, please let me know.
Do the brotherhoods from the village of Bukmirė near Bruēaj and Vatnikaj in Sumė have traditions of being related to the medieval Bukmiri? From what I have read (http://www.postribe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Postriba-dhe-Adem-Haxhija.pdf), there is tradition that a part of the modern-day brotherhoods of Bukmirė actually claim to be descended from Pyl Kuēi. This individual, alongside his brother Dol who supposedly settled in Gurra-Dajce, is believed to have arrived from the Kuēi of Malėsi or eastern Montenegro. If I recall correctly an individual from Gurra-Dajce also tested as E-M81. I also wonder if Gurra-Dajce or just Dajce is the same as the village of Dajē that is recorded in 1671 by Shtjefėn Gaspari and grouped with Bukmirė.

There are also a few other settlements whose names are derived from the Bukmiri. Near Rrėshen, Mirditė, there is the village of Bukėmirė and near the villages of Rashtish and Sukobin there is the village of Bukmira. However I think it is hard to say whether or not the modern families from these villages are descended from the Bukmiri who founded them.

Rrenjet.
02-22-2021, 02:12 PM
Do the brotherhoods from the village of Bukmirė near Bruēaj and Vatnikaj in Sumė have traditions of being related to the medieval Bukmiri? From what I have read (http://www.postribe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Postriba-dhe-Adem-Haxhija.pdf), there is tradition that a part of the modern-day brotherhoods of Bukmirė actually claim to be descended from Pyl Kuēi. This individual, alongside his brother Dol who supposedly settled in Gurra-Dajce, is believed to have arrived from the Kuēi of Malėsi or eastern Montenegro. If I recall correctly an individual from Gurra-Dajce also tested as E-M81.

There are also a few other settlements whose names are derived from the Bukmiri. Near Rrėshen, Mirditė, there is the village of Bukėmirė and near the villages of Rashtish and Sukobin there is the village of Bukmira. However I think it is hard to say whether or not the modern families from these villages are descended from the Bukmiri who founded them.

Yes, the two tested families are from the group that claim to be from Kuc (although one of those had no recollection of such tradition). As many Albanian clans or brotherhoods point to Kuc of Montenegro as their ancestral lands, we hoped this was only a generalization related to the area where the Medieval Bukemirs had lived, but with no other matches, this remains to be verified.

We have also contacted people from Bukemire of Mirdite, the two different people told us the current population there is Orosh.

Sorcelow
02-22-2021, 02:15 PM
Lugar. One of the main families/brotherhoods in fact, so it will be an important result for this village.

I have read that the inhabitants of the two villages were originally Albanian speakers. Do you have any materials or links that covers their history?

Rrenjet.
02-22-2021, 02:31 PM
I have read that the inhabitants of the two villages were originally Albanian speakers. Do you have any materials or links that covers their history?

The tester identifies as Albanian, but he said many people recently identify as Greek. I do not know of any documents on the history of the village though, the DNA project is already time-consuming enough.

Kelmendasi
02-22-2021, 02:32 PM
Yes, the two tested families are from the group that claim to be from Kuc (although one of those had no recollection of such tradition). As many Albanian clans or brotherhoods point to Kuc of Montenegro as their ancestral lands, we hoped this was only a generalization related to the area where the Medieval Bukemirs had lived, but with no other matches, this remains to be verified.

We have also contacted people from Bukemire of Mirdite, the two different people told us the current population there is Orosh.
The source I linked does in fact mention that whilst the two brothers came to Sumė from the tribal area of Kuēi, their ancestral village from where they came was also apparently called Bukmirė; "Rreth 300 vjet mė parė... Dol Kuēi e Pyl Kuēi, erdhėn nga Kuēi i Malit tė Zi, tokė Shqiptare ne atė kohė, dhe u vendosėn nė Gurra-Dajcė e Bukmirė te fshatit Sumė. Dol Kuēi u vendos nė Gurra-Dajcė ndėrsa Pyl Kuēi u vendos nė Bukmirė, duke mbajtur edhe emrin e vendit 'Bukmirėt', nga kishin ardhur.". Should note that the toponym Bukumirsko jezero or "Bukumir lake" is found on Mt. Komovi to the north of the core Kuēi territory, and that this area was frequented by shepherds from the aforementioned tribe.

What is interesting to note is that the source mentions that the brothers arrived roughly three hundred years ago, so likely during the beginning of the eighteenth century CE. But possibly during the end of the seventeenth. The villages of Bukmirė (Buccamira in the original) and Dajēa (Daizza), likely Dajcė, are mentioned by Shtjefėn Gaspari in 1671 with only ten households. So they were for sure already founded by the late seventeenth century.

Edit: It seems that the settlement of Bukmira, which was recorded in the Ottoman defter of the sanjak of Shkodra of 1485 may correspond to the present-day village of Bukmirė in Sumė. This would confirm that the village was founded way before the date suggested by oral tradition. However, it should be noted that Leka Kuēi and a Petri, son of Kuēi, are recorded. Possibly reflecting the tradition of origin from Kuē.

Kelmendasi
02-22-2021, 05:51 PM
In the Austrian Albanian census of 1918, the last name Bukmiraj is recorded in the village of Kallmet just to the north of Lezha. Five individuals are recorded with this surname: Hil Ndue Bukmiraj, Gjin Kol Bukmiraj, Gjergj Ndue Bukmiraj, Prenk Shtjefėn Bukmiraj, and Prend Mark Bukmiraj. They all should belong to the same fis, which however is not recorded in the registers of 1923 and 1945.

It is hard to say if this family was/is related to the medieval Bukmiri or if they in fact just stem from a settlement that was founded or named after the fis. Most of the brotherhoods of Kallmeti today claim origin from Kelmendi and Mirdita (in particularly tribes such as Spaēi and Selita).

Bukmiri branches are also recorded in the Venetian cadastre of Scutari of 1416-17, where they are recorded in two villages located in the lowlands around the rivers Drin and Bunė. In the village of Shėnkoll i Kakariqit or Blinisht as it is now known, a certain Aleks Bukamiri is recorded. And in Trush i Madh, Gjergj Bukamiri is recorded. So we know that branches settled around the lowlands of Shkodra and Lezha, likely due to their pastoralist nature.

Bruzmi
02-22-2021, 07:41 PM
Apart from the three new samples on YFull, we also have a R-FT166340 member from Shkoder. Two of the new samples are from Laberi, while the other one from further East in Gjirokaster, so it's a very common line in this whole area.

Regarding Bukemir and other Late Medieval clans of Montenegro and NW Albania, as the historical record is recently being enriched with newly found documents, especially from Venice and the Vatican, it is of critical importance for us to supplement it with DNA data associated with these clans. Bukemir is one whose ancestry we are currently investigating. I can say that two tests have already been conducted in the Bukemire village in Pult, and both results are E-M81, so no relation to the possible Bukemir results from Montenegro/Sanxhak was found. We are looking for other potential brotherhoods in Albania or Kosove that may be related to the Medieval Bukemir. If you are aware of any such cases, please let me know.

I think that it'll be hard to find specific families linked to the Bukmirė by searching primarily in the villages that preserve their name because movement was very frequent from one area to another in settlements which weren't part of a collective property. If a village or a neighbourhood wasn't part of the communal property of a fis, then it was easy to sell your land and move elsewhere. But if the village or a specific neighbourhood (mahallė) belonged to an extended family, it was very difficult for other families to settle there because the entire fis had to support the right of one household to sell a part of the land property which was used by them. And that almost never happened.

This is what Pulaha writes about Bukmiri:

"Bukmirėt pėrmenden tė shpėrndarė nė mė shumė vendbanime nė 9 fshatra tė trevės malore dhe fushore tė kazasė sė Shkodrės si dhe nė Pipėr . Kėto janė fshatrat : Grizha , Prelat ose Bardani , Pendėtari , Mushani , Rasha , Mėrkojeviq , Varoshi i Drishtit , Martish , Klir. Pėrveē kėtyreve , mė 1485 gjejmė vetėm njė fshat me emrin Bukmira nė viset malore tė Petrishpan ilisė , i cili ishte vendbanimi i parė i ngulitjes sė Bukmirėve nė trevat e kullotave tė tyre verore . Mė vonė , mė 1497 gjejmė katunin Bukmir me kaznes Radiēin tė birin e Llazarit si degė e pangulitur e Bukmirėve nė Pipėr , tė ardhur aty nga fshati Veternik sė bashku me katunin Bushat . Njė shekull mė vonė , sipas regjistrimit tė vitit 1582 , katuni Bukmir ishte ngulitur , duke formuar fshatin me emrin Bukmir , ashtu siē ndodhi me katunin Bushat tė ngulitur nė fshatin Bushat tė Pipėrit . Degė tė tjera tė Bukmirėve vazhdonin tė nguliteshin nė viset e kullotave tė tyre dimėrore nė fushėn e Shkodrės . Kėshtu mė 1582 pėrveē fshatit Bukmir tė nahijes sė Petrishpanit (tani pėrfshihet nė nahijen e e Altun ilisė gjejmė edhe njė fshat tė ri tė quajtur Bukmir i Vogėl nė nahijen e Zabojanės.

Siē konstatohet nga informatat e mėsipėrme , katuni i Bukmirėve u territorializua gradualisht gjatė kalimit nga shekulli XV nė shek . XVI . Faktet se fshati Bukmir i trevės malore tė Petrishpan ilisė del si vendbanim i parė i tyre , mospėrmendja e bashkėsisė nė zonėn e Zetės nė periudhėn 1330-1455 , shpėrndarja e Bukmirėve ndėr fshatra tė ndryshme tė fushės sė Shkodrės mė shumė nė vitin 1485 se sa nė fillim tė shek. XV, tregojnė se vendvendosja fillestare e kėsaj bashkėsie kanė qenė trevat malore tė nahijes sė Petrishpan ilsė, prej nga ku shtegtonin nė kullotat dimėrore tė fushės sė Shkodrės ose shpėrnguleshin dhe vendoseshin nė fshatra tė ndryshme si kunorė tė veēanta. Nga ana tjetėr , nė trevat malore u ruajtėn gjatė degė tė Bukmirėve me organizimin katunar , tė cilat lėviznin pėr kullota verore edhe nė viset e Zetės , deri nė Pipėr ku ata shkuan mė 1497. Ngulitja e Bukmirėve si nė trevat malore ashtu dhe nė ato fushore nuk solli si rezultat krijimin e njė fisi tė madh tė lidhur me njė teritor tė caktuar."

Kelmendasi
02-22-2021, 08:11 PM
I think that it'll be hard to find specific families linked to the Bukmirė by searching primarily in the villages that preserve their name because movement was very frequent from one area to another in settlements which weren't part of a collective property. If a village or a neighbourhood wasn't part the communal property of a fis, then it was easy to sell your land and move elsewhere. But if the village or a specific neighbourhood (mahallė) belonged to an extended family, it was very difficult for other families to settle there because the entire fis had to support the right of one household to sell a part of the land property which was used by them. And that almost never happened.

This is what Pulaha writes about Bukmiri:

"Bukmirėt pėrmenden tė shpėrndarė nė mė shumė vendbanime nė 9 fshatra tė trevės malore dhe fushore tė kazasė sė Shkodrės si dhe nė Pipėr . Kėto janė fshatrat : Grizha , Prelat ose Bardani , Pendėtari , Mushani , Rasha , Mėrkojeviq , Varoshi i Drishtit , Martish , Klir. Pėrveē kėtyreve , mė 1485 gjejmė vetėm njė fshat me emrin Bukmira nė viset malore tė Petrishpan ilisė , i cili ishte vendbanimi i parė i ngulitjes sė Bukmirėve nė trevat e kullotave tė tyre verore . Mė vonė , mė 1497 gjejmė katunin Bukmir me kaznes Radiēin tė birin e Llazarit si degė e pangulitur e Bukmirėve nė Pipėr , tė ardhur aty nga fshati Veternik sė bashku me katunin Bushat . Njė shekull mė vonė , sipas regjistrimit tė vitit 1582 , katuni Bukmir ishte ngulitur , duke formuar fshatin me emrin Bukmir , ashtu siē ndodhi me katunin Bushat tė ngulitur nė fshatin Bushat tė Pipėrit . Degė tė tjera tė Bukmirėve vazhdonin tė nguliteshin nė viset e kullotave tė tyre dimėrore nė fushėn e Shkodrės . Kėshtu mė 1582 pėrveē fshatit Bukmir tė nahijes sė Petrishpanit (tani pėrfshihet nė nahijen e e Altun ilisė gjejmė edhe njė fshat tė ri tė quajtur Bukmir i Vogėl nė nahijen e Zabojanės.

Siē konstatohet nga informatat e mėsipėrme , katuni i Bukmirėve u territorializua gradualisht gjatė kalimit nga shekulli XV nė shek . XVI . Faktet se fshati Bukmir i trevės malore tė Petrishpan ilisė del si vendbanim i parė i tyre , mospėrmendja e bashkėsisė nė zonėn e Zetės nė periudhėn 1330-1455 , shpėrndarja e Bukmirėve ndėr fshatra tė ndryshme tė fushės sė Shkodrės mė shumė nė vitin 1485 se sa nė fillim tė shek. XV, tregojnė se vendvendosja fillestare e kėsaj bashkėsie kanė qenė trevat malore tė nahijes sė Petrishpan ilsė, prej nga ku shtegtonin nė kullotat dimėrore tė fushės sė Shkodrės ose shpėrnguleshin dhe vendoseshin nė fshatra tė ndryshme si kunorė tė veēanta. Nga ana tjetėr , nė trevat malore u ruajtėn gjatė degė tė Bukmirėve me organizimin katunar , tė cilat lėviznin pėr kullota verore edhe nė viset e Zetės , deri nė Pipėr ku ata shkuan mė 1497. Ngulitja e Bukmirėve si nė trevat malore ashtu dhe nė ato fushore nuk solli si rezultat krijimin e njė fisi tė madh tė lidhur me njė teritor tė caktuar."
Have you got access to the source where Pulaha states this? I have been trying to find many of his works but have been unable to.

Kelmendasi
02-22-2021, 08:51 PM
It is probable that in Old Albanian, -aj would have been -anj (examples: Standard Albanian. Bėj vs Old Gegė. Bānj) and that -anj would have been rendered as -ani without the appropriate orthographic representation.
I agree with this. In the Ottoman defter of the sanjak of Shkodra of 1485, the settlement of Pulaj for example is recorded as Pulanj.

trdbr1234
02-23-2021, 12:03 AM
I did not use "not yet determined", only basal.

???


Regardless, it is not at all about semantics, but subclade diversity. I was very clear, Bulgaria and Romania do not have haplotypes that could be R-Z2705* or R-Z2705>BY147912*. These haplotypes have only been found west of Skopje.

It is a bit difficult to ignore the semantics play while simultaneously denying the semantics here.

Does * on Yfull denote basal or does it not? Do not play a semantics game. Yes No?

If it does then 4/4 Bulgarians on Yfull are basal! A rate of 100%

Albanian clades are relevant. However, we have to consider Albanians and Montenegrins are far more tested. Also noteworthy, the 4 Bulgarians on Yfull are basal on 3 different branches of Z2705. Applying rudimentary probabilities to this fact yields us important inferences about the origin of Z2705.


I am not sure which one you are referring to. The only one who is not under R-Y32147 is originally from clan Kuc of Montenegro. Among the remaining three, one is supposedly from SE Serbia, and two more, as far as I am aware, have no indications of ancestry out side Bulgaria (one of these two is Pomak).

That is awesome. I was almost expecting every Z2705 Bulgarian to be an Albanian-Montenegrin milk trader along the calcium road.


I was fully accurate. The 2.2% of R-Z2705 in Bulgaria comes from this study (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779) with 808 samples, while in FTDNA projects it may be even a bit lower than that. For the % among Albanians, the sample is just over 1000, so both figures are reliable.

All things considered, with currently available data Bulgarians are less diverse in R-Z2705 than Albanians, Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia, Greece and possibly even Italians.

That is completely ridiculous. You are relying on Y16 to guess their placements. lol Majority of these placements are your opinions more than probabilities. I question your methods at this point. I would like to also remind you that what is on Yfull is fact. We'll just agree to disagree.


It is safe to say at this point that Albanians are not ready to assume a Bulgarians origin of Z2705 just yet. It causes too much emotional harm. Saying that, it is probably not worth mentioning other clades from Bulgaria that show a similar pattern of distribution to Z2705. They too cause emotional harm.

Kelmendasi
02-23-2021, 12:40 AM
It is safe to say at this point that Albanians are not ready to assume a Bulgarians origin of Z2705 just yet. It causes too much emotional harm. Saying that, it is probably not worth mentioning other clades from Bulgaria that show a similar pattern of distribution to Z2705. They too cause emotional harm.
Not really, the majority of Albanians who are seriously involved in these topics and discussions are willing to accept a Slavic or non-Albanian origin for any cluster as long as there is concrete evidence backing that thesis. The consensus of a Slavic origin for the vast majority of Albanian R1a-M417 and I2a-Y3120 clusters for example, has been accepted for a while now since there is practically no convincing evidence to suggest otherwise. Bear in mind that these are not negligible clusters, but represent ~15% of total Albanian Y-DNA haplogroup lineages.

In regards to R1b-Z2705, it is simply the opinion of most that it did not enter the Albanian ethnos through a foreign population migration based on the current evidence and our interpretations of that data, just as it is your interpretation that it arrived during the medieval from the area of present-day Bulgaria. It would be just as irrational for me to say confidently that you have an emotional reason for denying a local origin for the cluster.

trdbr1234
02-23-2021, 01:32 AM
Not really, the majority of Albanians who are seriously involved in these topics and discussions are willing to accept a Slavic or non-Albanian origin for any cluster as long as there is concrete evidence backing that thesis. The consensus of a Slavic origin for the vast majority of Albanian R1a-M417 and I2a-Y3120 clusters for example, has been accepted for a while now since there is practically no convincing evidence to suggest otherwise. Bear in mind that these are not negligible clusters, but represent ~15% of total Albanian Y-DNA haplogroup lineages.

In regards to R1b-Z2705, it is simply the opinion of most that it did not enter the Albanian ethnos through a foreign population migration based on the current evidence and our interpretations of that data, just as it is your interpretation that it arrived during the medieval from the area of present-day Bulgaria. It would be just as irrational for me to say confidently that you have an emotional reason for denying a local origin for the cluster.

Do you want to discuss other clades from Bulgaria that show a similar pattern of distribution to Z2705? I don't think you do and I don't want to offend all of you. You want to discuss how Southeastern Montenegro/Sanxhak border, which is where Z2705 is currently thought to have expanded from, is not thought to have taken part in the Komani culture, and could not therefore have taken part in Proto-Albanian expansion? You are pretty resourcefull. Maybe you can find literature that puts that area within that culture. This would be a honest discussion. Do you wan to discuss its explosive growth? Maybe find some other Albanian clades that experienced similar growth structure? I am not sure there are tbh(aside from clades that overlap Z2705 itself). Arguments against so far have been just silly. We have yet to reach maturity when we cannot detach emotions from haplos. Same problems that have plagued this thread for years, really. I also don't think Z2705 arrived with the Slavic expansion. I think it was either absorbed by Bulgars/Slavs or pushed westwards as a result of Bulgars/Slavs.

Kelmendasi
02-23-2021, 02:28 AM
Do you want to discuss other clades from Bulgaria that show a similar pattern of distribution to Z2705? I don't think you do and I don't want to offend all of you. You want to discuss how Southeastern Montenegro/Sanxhak border, which is where Z2705 is currently thought to have expanded from, is not thought to have taken part in the Komani culture, and could not therefore have taken part in Proto-Albanian expansion? You are pretty resourcefull. Maybe you can find literature that puts that area within that culture. This would be a honest discussion. Do you wan to discuss its explosive growth? Maybe find some other Albanian clades that experienced similar growth structure? I am not sure there are tbh(aside from clades that overlap Z2705 itself). Arguments against so far have been just silly. We have yet to reach maturity when we cannot detach emotions from haplos. Same problems that have plagued this thread for years, really. I also don't think Z2705 arrived with the Slavic expansion. I think it was either absorbed by Bulgars/Slavs or pushed westwards as a result of Bulgars/Slavs.
Feel free to do so, this is an open discussion where you can state your opinions if you want to do so. Disagreement is not because you are causing offence, it is only because we do not agree with your interpretation and so are presenting our own. This thread was opened in order to promote and create discussions regarding Albanian Y-DNA and genetics.

trdbr1234
02-23-2021, 02:46 AM
Feel free to do so, this is an open discussion where you can state your opinions if you want to do so. Disagreement is not because you are causing offence, it is only because we do not agree with your interpretation and so are presenting our own. This thread was opened in order to promote and create discussions regarding Albanian Y-DNA and genetics.

I though you were looking for evidence backing the thesis. I laid out 8 different point in this thread that define my thesis. I restated three that were addressed to you but went unanswered.

It is another gif moment here.

Rrenjet.
02-23-2021, 05:19 AM
It is a bit difficult to ignore the semantics play while simultaneously denying the semantics here.
Does * on Yfull denote basal or does it not? Do not play a semantics game. Yes No?
If it does then 4/4 Bulgarians on Yfull are basal! A rate of 100%

Samples with * are basal only for the clades they are in. If you want to consider them basal, they are basal for Z2705>BY38894>BY218801>FT62850, Z2705>BY38894>Y32147>FT166340>Y37280, Z2705>BY38894>Y32147>FT166340>Y37280>Y83258 and Z2705>BY38894>Y32147>Y126039.

None of the Bulgarians is basal for Z2705 or its two immediate subclades Z2705>BY147912 and Z2705>BY38894, so if you want rate of basal R-Z2705, it's 0%.


Albanian clades are relevant. However, we have to consider Albanians and Montenegrins are far more tested... ...That is completely ridiculous. You are relying on Y16 to guess their placements. lol Majority of these placements are your opinions more than probabilities. I question your methods at this point. I would like to also remind you that what is on Yfull is fact. We'll just agree to disagree.

Once again, irrelevant. Those STRs are enough to place them with confidence. You could upgrade every single Bulgarian tested so far to BigY, none of them would be R-Z2705(xBY38894, xBY105603 - that means negative on BY38894 and BY105603). BY38894 haplotypes have DYS393=13 and BY105603 haplotypes have DYS392=11. You can check yourself rather than question everyone else. In all published studies and DNA projects, if you find even one R-Z2705 Bulgarian that lacks those values, please let us all know. Until then, all known Bulgarian haplotypes remain restricted to younger clades.


It is safe to say at this point that Albanians are not ready to assume a Bulgarians origin of Z2705 just yet. It causes too much emotional harm. Saying that, it is probably not worth mentioning other clades from Bulgaria that show a similar pattern of distribution to Z2705. They too cause emotional harm.

I am stating facts while you are talking about feelings, pretty clear who is being the emotional one.

Bruzmi
02-23-2021, 12:33 PM
R-Y133365 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y133365/) is another very interesting subclade of R-Y32147

R-Y133365* has been found in Albania (x2), Montenegro (Plava) and Romania (Teleorman)

The sample from Montenegro (https://bosnjackidnk.com/porijeklo-porodice-redzepagic-iz-bijelog-polja/) belongs to the Redžepagić/iqi-Rexhepagaj family of Plav(a). They come from the Gruemiri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruemiri) fis near Shkodra and moved to Plava in the 17th century. Writer Jashar Rexhepagiq (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jashar_Rexhepagiq), Hysen Rexhepagaj (https://www.parlament.al/Files/sKuvendi/LigjvenesitNeVite.pdf), member of the national assembly of Albania, and Ragip and Ahmet Rexhepagaj, two of the first teachers in Plav(a) and many others belong to this brotherhood.

Another brotherhood from the Gruemiri in Plava-Gucia (Plav-Gusinje) are the Shabanagaj. Ali Pasha of Gucia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Pasha_of_Gusinje), League of Prizren commander, was one of them. Hamdija Redžepagić/iqi who has written about the Rexhepagaj and the Shabanagaj claims that Rexhep (progenitor of the Rexhepagaj) and Shaban (progenitor of the Shabanagaj) were brothers, but this is probably a later simplification of their genealogical link. Their actual relation is a few generations older than these two figures as the historical data suggest.

Bruzmi
03-03-2021, 06:27 PM
70 new results (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=258289359205302&id=101700961530810) in Project Rrėnjėt:



E-V13
19


R1b-M269
17


J2b-L83
12


I2a-L460
4


I1-M253
3


I2-L596
2


I2a-M223
2


R1a-M417
2


E-M81
2


T1a-M70
2


J1-M267
1


J2a-M410
1


E-M132
1


G2-P287
1


R1b-V88
1




Kukės: E-V13
Kukės: E-V13
Dibėr: E-V13
Shkodėr: E-V13
Sumė, Shkodėr: E-V13
Sumė, Shkodėr: E-V13
Kavajė, Tiranė: E-V13
Strugė: E-V13
Strugė: E-V13
Morinė, Lipjan, Prishtinė: E-V13
Kelmend, Guci: E-V13>Z5017>CTS9320>Z16988>BY62310 (within E-Z16988 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z16988/))
Berishė, Tropojė, Kukės: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93120
Kukės: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC11450>Y173822
Lezhė: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC11450>Y146086 (within E-FGC11450 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11450/))
Vlorė: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC11450>Y146086
Vlorė: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC11450>Y146086
Gjirokastėr: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC11450>Y146086 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y146086/)
Shipshan, Tropojė, Kukės: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>L241>PH2180
Podujevė, Prishtinė: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>L241>PH2180 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH2180/)
Strugė: R1b-V88
Bulqizė: R1b-M269>PF7563 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7563/)
Shalė, Shkodėr: R1b-M269>PF7563>Y83965>Y168201>FT25059
Lezhė: R1b-M269>PF7563>Z29758>PF7566>FGC40202 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC40202/)
Strugė: R1b-M269>L23>L51
Vlorė: R1b-M269>L23>L51
Lushnje: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Lezhė: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Kėrēovė: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Bulqizė: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Strugė: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Ohėr: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Thaē, Ferizaj: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Hot, Pejė: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Gramsh, Elbasan: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Berat: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Dibėr e Madhe: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Vlorė: R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Strugė: J2b-L283
Fan, Mirditė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
Selitė, Mirditė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
Krasniqe, Vushtrri, Mitrovicė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
Krasniqe, Tropojė, Kukės: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
Kėrēovė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
Korēė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
Berishė, Prizren: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
Nikaj, Tropojė, Kukės: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20899/)
Kėrēovė: J2b-L283>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
Mat, Dibėr: J2b-L283>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
Strugė: J2b-L283>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y21878/)
Gjirokastėr: I2a-L460>P37>L621>CTS10228>Y3120
Elbasan: I2a-L460>P37>L621>CTS10228>Y3120>Z17855 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855/)
Shkodėr: I2a-L460>P37>L621>CTS10228>Y3120>PH908 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-PH908/)
Tiranė: I2a-L460>P37>L621>CTS10228>Y3120>PH908
Kėrēovė: I2a-M223>L701>S25733 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S25733/)
Kėrēovė: I2a-M223>L1229>Z2068 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z2068/)
Morinė, Deēan, Gjakovė: I2-L596>Y16419 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y16419/)
Dibėr: I2-L596>Y14158>S6635>S6724>PF3885 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-PF3885/) (TMRCA 3,000ybp)
Strugė: R1a-M417>M458>L1029>Y133361 (within R-L1029 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/))
Gjakovė: R1a-M417>CTS1211>YP343 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP343/)
Krasniqe, Prizren: I1-M253
Gash, Prishtinė: I1-M253>Z63>S2077>Y60985>BY207773 (within I-Y16437 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y16437/) - so far represented only in Albanians)
Mat, Dibėr: I1-M253>Z58>Z138>S6277>S20289>FT61080 (within I-S20289 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S20289/))
Pėrmet, Gjirokastėr: J1-M267>Z2217>Z1828>Y1842>Y4423>CTS1460>Y79665 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y79665/)
Kavajė, Tiranė: J2a-M410>M67>Z1847>Z467 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z467/)
Sumė, Shkodėr: E-M81
Sumė, Shkodėr: E-M81
Bulqizė: E-M132
Vlorė: G2-P287
Gramsh: T1a-M70>Y11151>Y8614 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y8614/)
Berat: T1a-M70>L131>CTS933 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS933/)

eastara
03-04-2021, 07:52 AM
Are the I2c results from Big Y? It is strange to see an Albanian with I2c1, I don't recollect anyone else ever found in the South Balkans. On the other hand I2c2 is rather common, very interested if the guy from Morinė, Deēan, Gjakovė. which I understand is in Kosovo has done the Big Y. My brother tested a few yeas ago and is I-BY4177. He has STR matches from SouthEast Serbia, Macedonia and Kosovo.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-BY4177/

Rrenjet.
03-04-2021, 09:20 AM
Are the I2c results from Big Y? It is strange to see an Albanian with I2c1, I don't recollect anyone else ever found in the South Balkans. On the other hand I2c2 is rather common, very interested if the guy from Morinė, Deēan, Gjakovė. which I understand is in Kosovo has done the Big Y. My brother tested a few yeas ago and is I-BY4177. He has STR matches from SouthEast Serbia, Macedonia and Kosovo.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-BY4177/

Out of the Albanian results, only the one from Diber has done a high resolution test uploaded to YFull. The other two are at GD=8/37, so theoretically, they should be over 1000 years apart. I also checked your I-BY4177 cluster: your BigY sample is at GD=9/37 with the Morina one and GD=11/37 with the Kukes one. It would sure be interesting to check these distances by SNP.

Kelmendasi
03-04-2021, 09:13 PM
There is an interesting paper by Albanian anthropologist Nebi Bardhoshi on the fis or Albanian tribal community: Fisi nė mes Pėrfytyrimeve Antropologjike (https://www.academia.edu/41931901/Fisi_n%C3%AB_p%C3%ABrfytyrime_antropologjike). In this paper, Bardhoshi states that the classification of ethnographic regions such as Dibra and Mati as belonging to the fis organization or community, as was perpetuated by western anthropologists such as Edith Durham, is erroneous and misinformed. He outlines that, while these regions are complex in regards to their social communities and organizations, there is no actual collective fis identity and that villages are made up of multiple families with different origins:

"Krahina e Matit ėshtė njė bashkėsi sociale shumė komplekse. As banorėt e kėsaj zone, e as ndonjė dokument historik, nuk na mundėsojnė tė flasim pėr ndonjė memorie sociale apo vetėpėrfytyrim kolektiv tė kėsaj bashkėsie si fis. Termi fis pėrdoret edhe nė kėtė krahinė nė shumė kuptime, ndėr to dhe pėr bashkėsitė sociale pėrbėrse tė njė fshati. Nisur nga shėnimet etnografike mjaft tė detajuara tė mledhura nga Dilaver Kurti, del qartė se jo vetem qė krahina e Matit nuk ėshtė fis, por edhe familjet pėrbėrse tė fshatit nė kėtė krahinė nuk kanė prejardhje tė njėjtė fisnore. Ne kėtė rast etnografia e Durhamit nuk ėshtė as 'pjesėrisht e vėrtetė'. Gjithė gjasat janė qė Durhami tė kėtė qenė e keqinformuar pėr kėtė krahinė."

"Dibra ėshtė njė tjetėr krahinė e pėrfytyruar si fis nė pėrshkrimet e Durham... Edhe Dibra nuk ėshtė aspak njė bashkėsi fisnore. Dibra, apo mė saktė nė Dibėr, ėshte aplikuar njė sistem social i cili ka ndėrthurur lidhjen territoriale me ato fisnore. Pėr shembull, nė Dibėr mali ėshtė bashkėsia sociale dhe politike qė krijon specifikat e kėsaj treve, e cila ka qenė jashtė vėmendjes sė antropologjisė perėndimore dhe asaj shqiptare. Mbi organizimin social dhe mbi tė drejtėn kanunore, falė punės sė Xhafer Martini, kemi tė dhėna mjaft provokuese... Nė Dibėr nuk kemi imagjinatėn kolektive lokale tė njė fisi imagjinar, tė tejfshati, apo tejkrahinor... Ndėrsa nė njė plan mė tė gjithė, lidhur kuptimin antropologjik tė malit, mund tė thuhet se ai ėshtė shpjeguar nga etnologu Mark Tirta dhe studiues tė tjerė nė kėta lėmenj... Nė Dibėr, ashtu si dhe nė krahinat e tjera, bashkėsia e fshatit ėshtė komplekse dhe pėrbėhet nga familje me prejardhje tė ndryshme fisnore a farefisnore."

gjergj
03-06-2021, 06:14 PM
There is an interesting paper by Albanian anthropologist Nebi Bardhoshi on the fis or Albanian tribal community: Fisi nė mes Pėrfytyrimeve Antropologjike (https://www.academia.edu/41931901/Fisi_n%C3%AB_p%C3%ABrfytyrime_antropologjike). In this paper, Bardhoshi states that the classification of ethnographic regions such as Dibra and Mati as belonging to the fis organization or community, as was perpetuated by western anthropologists such as Edith Durham, is erroneous and misinformed. He outlines that, while these regions are complex in regards to their social communities and organizations, there is no actual collective fis identity and that villages are made up of multiple families with different origins:

"Krahina e Matit ėshtė njė bashkėsi sociale shumė komplekse. As banorėt e kėsaj zone, e as ndonjė dokument historik, nuk na mundėsojnė tė flasim pėr ndonjė memorie sociale apo vetėpėrfytyrim kolektiv tė kėsaj bashkėsie si fis. Termi fis pėrdoret edhe nė kėtė krahinė nė shumė kuptime, ndėr to dhe pėr bashkėsitė sociale pėrbėrse tė njė fshati. Nisur nga shėnimet etnografike mjaft tė detajuara tė mledhura nga Dilaver Kurti, del qartė se jo vetem qė krahina e Matit nuk ėshtė fis, por edhe familjet pėrbėrse tė fshatit nė kėtė krahinė nuk kanė prejardhje tė njėjtė fisnore. Ne kėtė rast etnografia e Durhamit nuk ėshtė as 'pjesėrisht e vėrtetė'. Gjithė gjasat janė qė Durhami tė kėtė qenė e keqinformuar pėr kėtė krahinė."

"Dibra ėshtė njė tjetėr krahinė e pėrfytyruar si fis nė pėrshkrimet e Durham... Edhe Dibra nuk ėshtė aspak njė bashkėsi fisnore. Dibra, apo mė saktė nė Dibėr, ėshte aplikuar njė sistem social i cili ka ndėrthurur lidhjen territoriale me ato fisnore. Pėr shembull, nė Dibėr mali ėshtė bashkėsia sociale dhe politike qė krijon specifikat e kėsaj treve, e cila ka qenė jashtė vėmendjes sė antropologjisė perėndimore dhe asaj shqiptare. Mbi organizimin social dhe mbi tė drejtėn kanunore, falė punės sė Xhafer Martini, kemi tė dhėna mjaft provokuese... Nė Dibėr nuk kemi imagjinatėn kolektive lokale tė njė fisi imagjinar, tė tejfshati, apo tejkrahinor... Ndėrsa nė njė plan mė tė gjithė, lidhur kuptimin antropologjik tė malit, mund tė thuhet se ai ėshtė shpjeguar nga etnologu Mark Tirta dhe studiues tė tjerė nė kėta lėmenj... Nė Dibėr, ashtu si dhe nė krahinat e tjera, bashkėsia e fshatit ėshtė komplekse dhe pėrbėhet nga familje me prejardhje tė ndryshme fisnore a farefisnore."

And the fact of the matter is that is being reflected in Y dna results as well.
As one moves from the extreme north of Albanian alps towards the south the village composition start to change. Shala tribe, as an example its all one male line, not just in a village but the whole valley/Bajrak. As a geographical gradient the composition of the village unit becomes more diverse as one moves towards Puka, South Mirdita, Dibra and Mat and even further south.
At Rrenjet we are finding it more complicated to select people to test from these villages further south as it becomes more crucial to select from different lines in the village so as tests are not duplicated. But this also brings more diversity and potentially interesting new results/lines as well.

Kelmendasi
03-06-2021, 08:17 PM
As has been mentioned by user Pribislav on the thread (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21946-Tribes-of-Montenegro/page3) on the tribes of Montenegro, two individuals from the Serbian DNA project who have origin from the Bukmiri have tested as R1b-Y104972 (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-Y104972/) which is a new cluster under Z2705>Y32147>Y37280 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y37280/).

Thought it would be relevant to post this here as well since the Bukmiri were a medieval Albanian tribe, and so it is important in regards to the lineages of these older tribes that did not survive as tribal communities in Albania later on during the periods of Ottoman occupation.

Exercitus
03-11-2021, 09:02 AM
I recently bought this book "Η ΕΠΑΡΧΙΑ ΣΕΡΒΙΩΝ ΤΟΝ 16ο ΑΙΩΝΑ ΜΕΣΑ ΑΠΟ ΟΘΩΜΑΝΙΚΕΣ ΠΗΓΕΣ"- "The Province of Serbia (Kozani Prefecture, Greece] in the 16th Century through Ottoman Sources".

https://i.imgur.com/EK28qoD.jpg

It's a Mufassal (detailed - with the list of the anthroponyms of the householders of every village) Defter of the area between today Kozani - Serbia (Serbitsa) written in the year 1502.

https://i.imgur.com/z1VOfKp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/syhTyx2.jpg

Frankly it surprised me, idem as in the cases of Demir Hisar, Manastir(Bitola) and Kostur(Kastoria) !!
You can check and judge by yourselfs !!

Few examples:

- Village Izvor - Λευκόβρυση, year 1502
Kondo Gjergji and Gjin Gjura

https://i.imgur.com/LV6BBcD.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lefkovrysi+501+00,+Grecia/@40.2722217,21.6392574,40138m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x1359cde989bc8a2d:0x7ee49 3e489c2b1d9!8m2!3d40.2716124!4d21.7791875


- Village Ftelya - Πτελέα, year 1502
Niko Glati (Gjati) and Vreto Marjani

https://i.imgur.com/vkWDR2a.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/8r50Ch6.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ptelea+501+00,+Grecia/@40.3238229,21.7854811,40107m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x13582cbfa3a30c3b:0x48543 7a3669bdae2!8m2!3d40.329561!4d21.8794181


- Village Mokri - Λιβαδερό, year 1502
Dhimo Gjergji and Stamo Pali

https://i.imgur.com/qfL6JDy.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NOQvMoC.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Livadero+505+00,+Grecia/@40.0355373,21.6640678,80556m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x13584c0cb678ec47:0x400bd 2ce2b9a9e0!8m2!3d40.0353622!4d21.9447942

Exercitus
03-11-2021, 09:26 AM
- Village Lazarat - Λαζαράδες, year 1502
Jorgji Zguri and Leka Doljaniti

https://i.imgur.com/iUBaklq.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lazarades+505+00,+Grecia/@40.0469125,21.8094878,20136m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1359b4a536f02aaf:0x 500bd2ce2bae730!2sTranovalto+505+00,+Grecia!3b1!8m 2!3d40.0591815!4d21.8656375!3m4!1s0x1359b33450b859 d5:0x565632a0cd85a630!8m2!3d40.0186796!4d21.853469 6


- Village Kserovaltos - Τρανόβαλτο, year 1502
Leka Gjoni and Thodhor Maneshi

https://i.imgur.com/4RBnC5g.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/uXXF6ih.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tranovalto+505+00,+Grecia/@40.0590028,21.7263985,40264m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x1359b4a536f02aaf:0x500bd 2ce2bae730!8m2!3d40.0591815!4d21.8656375


- Village Ijdan - Τρανόβαλτο, year 1502
Domenik Gjoni and Gjin Rafti

https://i.imgur.com/8jgz7HL.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/gzSqDCo.jpg


- Village Rimnos - Ρύμνιο, year 1502
Leka Dida and Vaso Zguraqi

https://i.imgur.com/tFhsunh.jpg


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Rymnio+505+00,+Grecia/@40.1317523,21.7300222,40221m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x13583546df369d67:0x500bd 2ce2ba29d0!8m2!3d40.1321846!4d21.8702344

- Village Petrina also Mackohor - Πλατανόρρευμα, year 1502
Leka Zorili and Jani Gjonema

https://i.imgur.com/YgRBD6O.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WlrE5zO.jpg


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Platanorrevma+505+00,+Grecia/@40.2004596,21.9545071,20090m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x1358308acfa61075:0xd4acc ac5d81c570!8m2!3d40.2009088!4d22.0240413

Exercitus
03-11-2021, 09:49 AM
- Village Labanica - Λάβα, year 1502
Bardh Shmili and Gjin Anifandi

https://i.imgur.com/AGCMGeJ.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/%CE%9B%CE%AC%CE%B2%CE%B1+505+00,+Grecia/@40.1534011,21.9509366,20104m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1359ad636a8f22f3:0x fba731b048f3551e!2sElati+505+00,+Grecia!3b1!8m2!3d 39.9800704!4d21.8229357!3m4!1s0x1358373834f98c25:0 x6be56c80a13d8411!8m2!3d40.1534244!4d22.0208931


- Village Luzhani - Ελάτη, year 1502
Kosta Vreto and Gjin Llazari

https://i.imgur.com/OeQSjG2.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/I69FbYM.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Elati+505+00,+Grecia/@40.1183923,21.7569497,40229m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x1359ad636a8f22f3:0xfba73 1b048f3551e!8m2!3d39.9800704!4d21.8229357


- Village Libiyot Velvendos - Βελβεντός, year 1502
Gjin Gjini

https://i.imgur.com/nIuDCts.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Velventos+504+00,+Grecia/@40.2557552,22.0052725,20074m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1359b350bd0fd911:0x 400bd2ce2b9a960!2sKamvounia+505+00,+Grecia!3b1!8m2 !3d40.066667!4d21.85!3m4!1s0x13582455e35b86d1:0x40 0bd2ce2b9a910!8m2!3d40.2545404!4d22.0742798


- Village Alatos - Καμβουνίων, year 1502
Gjin Kavalari and Jani Kondo

https://i.imgur.com/7vlPLfw.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/4eTWwgP.jpg


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kamvounia+505+00,+Grecia/@40.0666651,21.8324904,5032m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x1359b350bd0fd911:0x4 00bd2ce2b9a960!8m2!3d40.066667!4d21.85


etc etc
So i guess that at this point we must reconsider the ethnic composition (and as consequence the genetic impact!) of the southwest and west Balkans during the Middle Ages, we should not be surprised to see at YFull side by side a Albanian with a Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian and N. Macedonian etc


The same it is truth also regarding the 'kinship' of a Bulgarian and an Albanian (e.g from Korca, southeast Albania)!!

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855a*/

Sorcelow
03-11-2021, 02:11 PM
- Village Labanica - Λάβα, year 1502
Bardh Shmili and Gjin Anifandi

https://i.imgur.com/AGCMGeJ.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/%CE%9B%CE%AC%CE%B2%CE%B1+505+00,+Grecia/@40.1534011,21.9509366,20104m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1359ad636a8f22f3:0x fba731b048f3551e!2sElati+505+00,+Grecia!3b1!8m2!3d 39.9800704!4d21.8229357!3m4!1s0x1358373834f98c25:0 x6be56c80a13d8411!8m2!3d40.1534244!4d22.0208931


- Village Luzhani - Ελάτη, year 1502
Kosta Vreto and Gjin Llazari

https://i.imgur.com/OeQSjG2.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/I69FbYM.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Elati+505+00,+Grecia/@40.1183923,21.7569497,40229m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x1359ad636a8f22f3:0xfba73 1b048f3551e!8m2!3d39.9800704!4d21.8229357


- Village Libiyot Velvendos - Βελβεντός, year 1502
Gjin Gjini

https://i.imgur.com/nIuDCts.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Velventos+504+00,+Grecia/@40.2557552,22.0052725,20074m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1359b350bd0fd911:0x 400bd2ce2b9a960!2sKamvounia+505+00,+Grecia!3b1!8m2 !3d40.066667!4d21.85!3m4!1s0x13582455e35b86d1:0x40 0bd2ce2b9a910!8m2!3d40.2545404!4d22.0742798


- Village Alatos - Καμβουνίων, year 1502
Gjin Kavalari and Jani Kondo

https://i.imgur.com/7vlPLfw.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/4eTWwgP.jpg


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kamvounia+505+00,+Grecia/@40.0666651,21.8324904,5032m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x1359b350bd0fd911:0x4 00bd2ce2b9a960!8m2!3d40.066667!4d21.85


etc etc
So i guess that at this point we must reconsider the ethnic composition (and as consequence the genetic impact!) of the southwest and west Balkans during the Middle Ages, we should not be surprised to see at YFull side by side a Albanian with a Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian and N. Macedonian etc


The same it is truth also regarding the 'kinship' of a Bulgarian and an Albanian (e.g from Korca, southeast Albania)!!

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855a*/

Mind posting some more pages?

J Man
03-11-2021, 02:18 PM
There is an interesting paper by Albanian anthropologist Nebi Bardhoshi on the fis or Albanian tribal community: Fisi nė mes Pėrfytyrimeve Antropologjike (https://www.academia.edu/41931901/Fisi_n%C3%AB_p%C3%ABrfytyrime_antropologjike). In this paper, Bardhoshi states that the classification of ethnographic regions such as Dibra and Mati as belonging to the fis organization or community, as was perpetuated by western anthropologists such as Edith Durham, is erroneous and misinformed. He outlines that, while these regions are complex in regards to their social communities and organizations, there is no actual collective fis identity and that villages are made up of multiple families with different origins:

"Krahina e Matit ėshtė njė bashkėsi sociale shumė komplekse. As banorėt e kėsaj zone, e as ndonjė dokument historik, nuk na mundėsojnė tė flasim pėr ndonjė memorie sociale apo vetėpėrfytyrim kolektiv tė kėsaj bashkėsie si fis. Termi fis pėrdoret edhe nė kėtė krahinė nė shumė kuptime, ndėr to dhe pėr bashkėsitė sociale pėrbėrse tė njė fshati. Nisur nga shėnimet etnografike mjaft tė detajuara tė mledhura nga Dilaver Kurti, del qartė se jo vetem qė krahina e Matit nuk ėshtė fis, por edhe familjet pėrbėrse tė fshatit nė kėtė krahinė nuk kanė prejardhje tė njėjtė fisnore. Ne kėtė rast etnografia e Durhamit nuk ėshtė as 'pjesėrisht e vėrtetė'. Gjithė gjasat janė qė Durhami tė kėtė qenė e keqinformuar pėr kėtė krahinė."

"Dibra ėshtė njė tjetėr krahinė e pėrfytyruar si fis nė pėrshkrimet e Durham... Edhe Dibra nuk ėshtė aspak njė bashkėsi fisnore. Dibra, apo mė saktė nė Dibėr, ėshte aplikuar njė sistem social i cili ka ndėrthurur lidhjen territoriale me ato fisnore. Pėr shembull, nė Dibėr mali ėshtė bashkėsia sociale dhe politike qė krijon specifikat e kėsaj treve, e cila ka qenė jashtė vėmendjes sė antropologjisė perėndimore dhe asaj shqiptare. Mbi organizimin social dhe mbi tė drejtėn kanunore, falė punės sė Xhafer Martini, kemi tė dhėna mjaft provokuese... Nė Dibėr nuk kemi imagjinatėn kolektive lokale tė njė fisi imagjinar, tė tejfshati, apo tejkrahinor... Ndėrsa nė njė plan mė tė gjithė, lidhur kuptimin antropologjik tė malit, mund tė thuhet se ai ėshtė shpjeguar nga etnologu Mark Tirta dhe studiues tė tjerė nė kėta lėmenj... Nė Dibėr, ashtu si dhe nė krahinat e tjera, bashkėsia e fshatit ėshtė komplekse dhe pėrbėhet nga familje me prejardhje tė ndryshme fisnore a farefisnore."

Couldn't tribal regions and villages have multiple fis living in them though?

Kelmendasi
03-11-2021, 03:39 PM
Couldn't tribal regions and villages have multiple fis living in them though?
If we are to define a tribal region or community as that of the Albanian fis, then by definition there cannot be multiple unrelated brotherhoods or families in that community. The fis is defined as a community whose members all maintain kinship ties through one common paternal ancestor. With the fis, there is also the territorialization of that community in a region which then becomes exclusive to its members. However, that is not to say that throughout history smaller unrelated brotherhoods have not been adopted into the fis, be it due to other kinship ties (i.e. maternal relations) or blood-brotherhoods.

There is also the case of the bashkėsi ("association" or "community"), which is also a community tied by common ancestry. However, unlike the fis, in this case territorialization has not taken place and so the community has not been able to established itself in a single area that can be exclusively tied to them.

In the case of the seventeenth century Ottoman territorial unit called the bajrak, many have mistakenly equated it to the fis since in a number of cases both would cover much of the same geographical areas. However, a number of bajraks were made up by communities that were heterogeneous in regards to their patrilineal ancestries or origins, albeit in some one fis did constitute most of the bajrak.

J Man
03-11-2021, 03:45 PM
If we are to define a tribal region or community as that of the Albanian fis, then by definition there cannot be multiple unrelated brotherhoods or families in that community. The fis is defined as a community whose members all maintain kinship ties through one common paternal ancestor. With the fis, there is also the territorialization of that community in a region which then becomes exclusive to its members. However, that is not to say that throughout history smaller unrelated brotherhoods have not been adopted into the fis, be it due to other kinship ties (i.e. maternal relations) or blood-brotherhoods.

There is also the case of the bashkėsi ("association" or "community"), which is also a community tied by common ancestry. However, unlike the fis, in this case territorialization has not taken place and so the community has not been able to established itself in a single area that can be exclusively tied to them.

In the case of the seventeenth century Ottoman territorial unit called the bajrak, many have mistakenly equated it to the fis since in a number of cases both would cover much of the same geographical areas. However, a number of bajraks were made up by communities that were heterogeneous in regards to their patrilineal ancestries or origins, albeit in some one fis did constitute most of the bajrak.

Interesting...Are there any examples in history where a fis moved into a territory occupied by fis of different origins and took over?

Kelmendasi
03-11-2021, 04:26 PM
Interesting...Are there any examples in history where a fis moved into a territory occupied by fis of different origins and took over?
An example that I can think of might be that of the Shala, who occupied the valley of the the River Shalė in the Dukagjini highlands of northern Albania. In their oral traditions, the Shala mention how their ancestors pushed out a number of brotherhoods who occupied different areas of what would later become the Shala tribal territory. Such brotherhoods or fise include: Koprat, Koxhobat, Bob, Gzhoba, Agrin, Mavriq, Shdėrvella, Gapzhella, Shushella, Murdat, Deshk, Maēk, Gjokajush, Dekajush, and Lopē. However, in some traditions only the Lopēi, Bobi, and Gimaj are mentioned as the indigeneous or anas brotherhoods.

In regards to the historical credibility of these traditions, in the Ottoman register or defter of the Sanjak of Shkodra of 1485, some settlements are recorded which seem to reflect the names of these brotherhoods or clans. The most obvious one is the settlement of Bop (recorded as Pop) which clearly belonged to the Bobi who were pushed out by the Shala into the regions and settlements of Kokėdodė and Fierza, with some settling in Kaēanik, south-eastern Kosovo. Another example is the settlement of Mavriq, which without a doubt belonged to the Mavriqi who seem to have been more of a bashkėsi that were spread across a number of settlements in northern Albania, many times alongside other brotherhoods, showing up also in the Venetian cadastre of Scutari of 1416-1417.

J Man
03-11-2021, 04:29 PM
An example that I can think of might be that of the Shala, who occupied the valley of the the River Shalė in the Dukagjini highlands of northern Albania. In their oral traditions, the Shala mention how their ancestors pushed out a number of brotherhoods who occupied different areas of what would later become the Shala tribal territory. Such brotherhoods or fise include: Koprat, Koxhobat, Bob, Gzhoba, Agrin, Mavriq, Shdėrvella, Gapzhella, Shushella, Murdat, Deshk, Maēk, Gjokajush, Dekajush, and Lopē. However, in some traditions only the Lopēi, Bobi, and Gimaj are mentioned as the indigeneous or anas brotherhoods.

In regards to the historical credibility of these traditions, in the Ottoman register or defter of the Sanjak of Shkodra of 1485, some settlements are recorded which seem to reflect the names of these brotherhoods or clans. The most obvious one is the settlement of Bop (recorded as Pop) which clearly belonged to the Bobi who were pushed out by the Shala into the regions and settlements of Kokėdodė and Fierza, with some settling in Kaēanik, south-eastern Kosovo. Another example is the settlement of Mavriq, which without a doubt belonged to the Mavriqi who seem to have been more of a bashkėsi that were spread across a number of settlements in northern Albania, many times alongside other brotherhoods, showing up also in the Venetian cadastre of Scutari of 1416-1417.

Very interesting!...As they moved into the new territory did the Shala intermarry with those native anas brotherhoods?

Kelmendasi
03-11-2021, 05:34 PM
Very interesting!...As they moved into the new territory did the Shala intermarry with those native anas brotherhoods?
I would assume that they may have done so in their early history, however what should be noted is that the Shala practically completely replaced or displaced these anas brotherhoods. From what I have seen, the Shala of northern Albania are exclusively R1b-FT25059 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT25059/).

In regards to marriage patterns, the Shaljanė families and brotherhoods of Thethi in the extreme north of Shalė - which formed its own bajrak separate from the rest of Shala - preferred taking brides from the Shaljanė villages and brotherhoods to the south of them, and from the neighbouring Shoshi tribe. They also occasionally took brides from the nearby tribes of Plani, Mėrturi, and Malėsia e Madhe. The southern Shala on the other hand, primarily intermarried with the Shoshi, and only secondarily with Thethi and the neighbouring Pulti, Kiri, and Nikaj-Mėrturi.

J Man
03-11-2021, 05:45 PM
I would assume that they may have done so in their early history, however what should be noted is that the Shala practically completely replaced or displaced these anas brotherhoods. From what I have seen, the Shala of northern Albania are exclusively R1b-FT25059 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT25059/).

In regards to marriage patterns, the Shaljanė families and brotherhoods of Thethi in the extreme north of Shalė - which formed its own bajrak separate from the rest of Shala - preferred taking brides from the Shaljanė villages and brotherhoods to the south of them, and from the neighbouring Shoshi tribe. They also occasionally took brides from the nearby tribes of Plani, Mėrturi, and Malėsia e Madhe. The southern Shala on the other hand, primarily intermarried with the Shoshi, and only secondarily with Thethi and the neighbouring Pulti, Kiri, and Nikaj-Mėrturi.

This is actually very interesting in looking at it from historical and anthropological angles. During which century do you think the Shala had become the dominant fis in the area and outnumbered or replaced the anas brotherhoods?