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Exercitus
03-11-2021, 06:19 PM
Sure Sorcelow,

- Village Milotin - Μηλιά Kozani

https://i.imgur.com/VvwOTzm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QXCJoXC.jpg

- Village Velijdi - Λευκοπηγή Kozani

https://i.imgur.com/LxV32sM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4oAjfLO.jpg


- Village Spirilit - Καρυδίτσα Kozani

https://i.imgur.com/1LpCUm3.jpg


- Village Izisko - Φρούριο Kozani

https://i.imgur.com/ACESUkm.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/mdrUuL8.jpg

Exercitus
03-11-2021, 06:30 PM
- Village Kalyani - Αιανή Kozani

https://i.imgur.com/gQX1QKK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rTRUFEw.jpg


- Village Gracani - Παλαιογράτσανο Servia

https://i.imgur.com/30hZFXv.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/bc30Sen.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/khpoYtl.jpg



- Village Kesarya - Καισαρειά Kozani

https://i.imgur.com/PcfDn2Z.jpg

Exercitus
03-11-2021, 06:39 PM
- Village Katafya - Καταφύγιο Servia

https://i.imgur.com/kz9JPyx.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3AlzrgH.jpg


- Village Ihteni - Κτένι Kozani

https://i.imgur.com/cgT2Whj.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6hGhVd5.jpg


- Village Kastanya - Καστανιά Servia

https://i.imgur.com/0TF9i82.jpg

Bruzmi
03-11-2021, 06:59 PM
This is actually very interesting in looking at it from historical and anthropological angles. During which century do you think the Shala had become the dominant fis in the area and outnumbered or replaced the anas brotherhoods?

Light and Shadow: Isolation and Interaction in the Shala Valley of Northern Albania (https://books.google.com/books?id=f2mRDwAAQBAJ) (2013) ed. by Michael Galaty, read pp. 55-60

https://i.imgur.com/25jntKM.jpg

According to Gimaj tradition, they moved to the present-day Shala valley ca. 1200. Shala moved in the region in the 15th century and it seems that by the late 17th century the majority of households belonged to the Shala fis.

J Man
03-11-2021, 07:05 PM
Light and Shadow: Isolation and Interaction in the Shala Valley of Northern Albania (https://books.google.com/books?id=f2mRDwAAQBAJ) (2013) ed. by Michael Galaty, read pp. 55-60

https://i.imgur.com/25jntKM.jpg

According to Gimaj tradition, they moved to the present-day Shala valley ca. 1200. Shala moved in the region in the 15th century and it seems that by the late 17th century the majority of households belonged to the Shala fis.

Very interesting thank you.

Exercitus
03-11-2021, 07:07 PM
Now how can we explain the fact that almost half of the villages\katunds of Kozani - Servia (Serbitsa) area in the beginning of the XVI century were Albanian-speaking, considering also the fact how geographically eastwards they were !? Actually they weren't a isolated, disconnected, enclave-like community, it was quite the opposite, the albanian-speaking katunds of this zone had a natural direct continuity from the west with the other albanian-speaking katunds of Νεάπολη\Anaselitsa\Lapsista, also south of Luzhani with Deshkati Village and the other Albanian-speaking villages of south Grebena and north Kalabaka\Καλαμπάκα!!

https://i.imgur.com/nLZdRMZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/iaMN6IZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/JxuDTdH.jpg


We can observe the same scenario in N. Macedonia, Kosovo and Montenegro during the Middle Ages, and that's all thanks to the Ottoman Defters !!!

Bruzmi
03-11-2021, 07:13 PM
etc etc
So i guess that at this point we must reconsider the ethnic composition (and as consequence the genetic impact!) of the southwest and west Balkans during the Middle Ages, we should not be surprised to see at YFull side by side a Albanian with a Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian and N. Macedonian etc


The same it is truth also regarding the 'kinship' of a Bulgarian and an Albanian (e.g from Korca, southeast Albania)!!

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855a*/



Now how can we explain the fact that almost half of the villages\katunds of Kozani - Servia (Serbitsa) area in the beginning of the XVI century were Albanian-speaking, considering also the fact how geographically eastwards they were !? Actually they weren't a isolated, disconnected, enclave-like community, it was quite the opposite, the albanian-speaking katunds of this zone had a natural direct continuity from the west with the other albanian-speaking katunds of Νεάπολη\Anaselitsa\Lapsista, also south of Luzhani with Deshkati Village and the other Albanian-speaking villages of south Grebena and north Kalabaka\Καλαμπάκα!!

https://i.imgur.com/nLZdRMZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/iaMN6IZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/JxuDTdH.jpg


We can observe the same scenario in N. Macedonia, Kosovo and Montenegro during the Middle Ages, and that's all thanks to the Ottoman Defters !!!

Exactly. Defters basically show that much of the focus about the spread of various lineages should be on largely undocumented post-antiquity migrations than semi-mythical movement of ancient groups.

Sorcelow
03-11-2021, 07:48 PM
Now how can we explain the fact that almost half of the villages\katunds of Kozani - Servia (Serbitsa) area in the beginning of the XVI century were Albanian-speaking, considering also the fact how geographically eastwards they were !? Actually they weren't a isolated, disconnected, enclave-like community, it was quite the opposite, the albanian-speaking katunds of this zone had a natural direct continuity from the west with the other albanian-speaking katunds of Νεάπολη\Anaselitsa\Lapsista, also south of Luzhani with Deshkati Village and the other Albanian-speaking villages of south Grebena and north Kalabaka\Καλαμπάκα!!

https://i.imgur.com/nLZdRMZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/iaMN6IZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/JxuDTdH.jpg


We can observe the same scenario in N. Macedonia, Kosovo and Montenegro during the Middle Ages, and that's all thanks to the Ottoman Defters !!!

Thanks, I figured that would be the case. There are a handful of Albanian toponyms around Grevena, Mirali, Boursia, Spata, Panareti, etc.

Kelmendasi
03-11-2021, 08:56 PM
Light and Shadow: Isolation and Interaction in the Shala Valley of Northern Albania (https://books.google.com/books?id=f2mRDwAAQBAJ) (2013) ed. by Michael Galaty, read pp. 55-60

https://i.imgur.com/25jntKM.jpg

According to Gimaj tradition, they moved to the present-day Shala valley ca. 1200. Shala moved in the region in the 15th century and it seems that by the late 17th century the majority of households belonged to the Shala fis.
If I recall correctly, some individuals from the Gimaj (Buē-Vataj brotherhood) or tracing their paternal ancestry back to them have tested as R1b-FT25059 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT25059/), meaning that they are in fact of the same patrilineal origin as the Shala fis.

It is pretty clear that most of the Shala fis do not consider themselves to be of the same origin as the Gimaj, however it is interesting to note that there are hints to a more distant relation. From an interview conducted by Albanian ethnographer Rrok Zojzi (qouted from here (http://shoqatadukagjini.com/gazeta/numri-56b.html)): "Me Gimajt bashkė jetojmė e bashkė punojmė, por nuk jena vėlla me ta. Gimajt e mbajnė vetėn vėlla me ne, por nuk janė tė tillė. Edhe ata kapėn tek Murr Deti, sikurse ne, por baba i pėrbashkėt ėshtė shumė larg me ne. I pari i Gimajve ėshtė i njė fisi me Nikėn, tė parin e Shalės, por jo vėlla i afėrm."

There is also a tradition among the Gimaj themselves which places them as paternally related to the Shala: "Sipas traditės gojore nė Gimaj: Gim Gjeēi ėshtė babai i gjithė Gimajve. Gjeēi Gjini / Gjin Vladi (vėlla i Pepė Vladit i cili ėshtė gjyshi i Pec Nikės me vėllezėr) / Vlad Stala / Stal Bengu / Beng Zogu / Zog Shiroka / Shirok Gjini / Gjin Murri / Murr Deti."

Although there are then multiple ethnographers who claim otherwise: "Gjinia Gimaj ėshtė nip bije i gjinisė Lotaj, i mbetun pa prind nė gjininė e Gil Nikės sė fisit tė Nikēit Kelmend, ku mori emrin e tė atit nga Gil nė Gim - Buē-Vataj ėshtė kreu i dytė i fiseve, Gjel-Vataj, Marvataj, Pavataj. Tė ngjeshur me Gimajt janė Dostanishaj, bajraktar fituar nė njė betejė lufte, Nikushaj dhe Gagu nuk e ruajnė prejardhjen e saktė tė tyrė."

Kelmendasi
03-11-2021, 10:28 PM
Light and Shadow: Isolation and Interaction in the Shala Valley of Northern Albania (https://escholarship.org/content/qt7589409p/qt7589409p_noSplash_79911b1bfa40610419aa94a62e281e f2.pdf?t=qb1smg) (2013) by Michael Galaty et al. is, in my opinion, a very good and recent work on the tribal territory of the Shala and its history. However, there are some theories or claims discussed that I believe are not exactly true.

In Chapter Five of the book, the historical bashkėsi (or fis?) of the Mavriqi is discussed: "There is some suggestion that the Mavriq people were originally non-Albanian speakers, and their descendants have been attested in Shala, Theth, and Curraj i Epėrm (Upper Curraj). They were believed to be warriors based at Dakaj (discussed in Chapter Nine), which later led to a neighbourhood down the slope from the fortress there being called Nėn Mavriq ("below Mavriq"). One argument is that these people were under the command or rule of a Roman leader named Mauritius. Later changed to Mauric and then later into Mavriq. When the Shala tribe moved in, they expelled the Mavriq people, who then moved to Maja e Zezė (Black Top), settling in Curraj i Epėrm (Upper Curraj), from which they were expelled as foreigners with Ottoman assistance in the late seventeenth century (Anonymous 2 1932:96-99). Pulaha's work on the Ottoman 1485 cadaster shows a village called Mavriq adjacent to "Shala", and some of the inhabitants' names are clearly Slavic, and one hints at a tie to the "Koman" culture, which had formed in the larger region in the early Middle Ages."

They suggestion that the Mavriqi were originally a people under the leadership of a certain Roman named Mauritius (or Mauricius) seems very fanciful and unlikely to me. Whilst the name of the community ultimately derives from the aforementioned Latin personal name, it is clear that the forms Mavriq and Muriq (also Murik, Moriē, Mauriē) are Albanian and were not not uncommonly used as given names, making it far more likely that they simply descended from an individual named Mavriq or Muriq and that the group was Albanian-speaking. As for the Ottoman register of 1485, whilst some Slavic names are attested, they were not the majority: Andrija, son of Zhupa; Gjon, son of Krijan; Gjon, son of Pashko; Nikolla, son of Shkaku; Gjura, son of Shkaku; Gjon, son of Bradimir; Gjorgj, son of Llesh; Nikolla, son of Zhupa; Gjon, son of Lumira; Nikolla, son of Gojan; Gjon, son of Koman; Andrija, son of Mesi; Bab Baici; Petri, son of Karun; Andrija, son of Rogam; Nikolla, son of Bradimir; Petri, son of Gjon; Martini, son of Karlin; Petri, son of Dobran; Gjon, son of Zhupa. As can be seen, Albanian anthroponyms such as Gjon, Pashko, Llesh, Bab, etc., are more prevalent than the Slavic names (e.g., Bradimir, Dobran, and Zhupa). And even those with Slavic given names tend to either have fathers or sons with Albanian names, suggesting that they too were simply Albanians who had adopted Slavic anthroponymy, something that was not uncommon during this period of time. It is also interesting to note the presence of certain Rogam, since there was a historical Albanian tribe with the same name that spread across northern Albania.

The Venetian cadastre of Scutari of 1416-1417 also attests to the Mavriqi. In this register they are recorded in two settlements; Mes, corresponding to the modern village in north-western Albania with the same name, and Turk, a settlement whose location is uncertain although believed to have potentially been around modern Ganjolla in north-western Albania to the west of Vau i Dejės. The individuals recorded in Mesi are: Gjergj Mavriqi, Lazėr Mavriqi, and Sokio Mavriqi. Whilst those from Turk are: Lazėr Mavriqi and P(j)etėr Mavriqi. Judging by their names, it is fairly clear that they were Albanians.

On top of this, Y-DNA testing has shown that the brotherhoods descending from the Mavriqi that settled in Sandžak are exclusively E-PH2180 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH2180/), a lineage that is most spread and diverse in northern Albania.

Bruzmi
03-11-2021, 11:51 PM
Light and Shadow: Isolation and Interaction in the Shala Valley of Northern Albania (https://escholarship.org/content/qt7589409p/qt7589409p_noSplash_79911b1bfa40610419aa94a62e281e f2.pdf?t=qb1smg) (2013) by Michael Galaty et al. is, in my opinion, a very good and recent work on the tribal territory of the Shala and its history. However, there are some theories or claims discussed that I believe are not exactly true.

In Chapter Five of the book, the historical bashkėsi (or fis?) of the Mavriqi is discussed: "There is some suggestion that the Mavriq people were originally non-Albanian speakers, and their descendants have been attested in Shala, Theth, and Curraj i Epėrm (Upper Curraj). They were believed to be warriors based at Dakaj (discussed in Chapter Nine), which later led to a neighbourhood down the slope from the fortress there being called Nėn Mavriq ("below Mavriq"). One argument is that these people were under the command or rule of a Roman leader named Mauritius. Later changed to Mauric and then later into Mavriq. When the Shala tribe moved in, they expelled the Mavriq people, who then moved to Maja e Zezė (Black Top), settling in Curraj i Epėrm (Upper Curraj), from which they were expelled as foreigners with Ottoman assistance in the late seventeenth century (Anonymous 2 1932:96-99). Pulaha's work on the Ottoman 1485 cadaster shows a village called Mavriq adjacent to "Shala", and some of the inhabitants' names are clearly Slavic, and one hints at a tie to the "Koman" culture, which had formed in the larger region in the early Middle Ages."

They suggestion that the Mavriqi were originally a people under the leadership of a certain Roman named Mauritius (or Mauricius) seems very fanciful and unlikely to me. Whilst the name of the community ultimately derives from the aforementioned Latin personal name, it is clear that the forms Mavriq and Muriq (also Murik, Moriē, Mauriē) are Albanian and were not not uncommonly used as given names, making it far more likely that they simply descended from an individual named Mavriq or Muriq and that the group was Albanian-speaking. As for the Ottoman register of 1485, whilst some Slavic names are attested, they were not the majority: Andrija, son of Zhupa; Gjon, son of Krijan; Gjon, son of Pashko; Nikolla, son of Shkaku; Gjura, son of Shkaku; Gjon, son of Bradimir; Gjorgj, son of Llesh; Nikolla, son of Zhupa; Gjon, son of Lumira; Nikolla, son of Gojan; Gjon, son of Koman; Andrija, son of Mesi; Bab Baici; Petri, son of Karun; Andrija, son of Rogam; Nikolla, son of Bradimir; Petri, son of Gjon; Martini, son of Karlin; Petri, son of Dobran; Gjon, son of Zhupa. As can be seen, Albanian anthroponyms such as Gjon, Pashko, Llesh, Bab, etc., are more prevalent than the Slavic names (e.g., Bradimir, Dobran, and Zhupa). And even those with Slavic given names tend to either have fathers or sons with Albanian names, suggesting that they too were simply Albanians who had adopted Slavic anthroponymy, something that was not uncommon during this period of time. It is also interesting to note the presence of certain Rogam, since there was a historical Albanian tribe with the same name that spread across northern Albania.

The Venetian cadastre of Scutari of 1416-1417 also attests to the Mavriqi. In this register they are recorded in two settlements; Mes, corresponding to the modern village in north-western Albania with the same name, and Turk, a settlement whose location is uncertain although believed to have potentially been around modern Ganjolla in north-western Albania to the west of Vau i Dejės. The individuals recorded in Mesi are: Gjergj Mavriqi, Lazėr Mavriqi, and Sokio Mavriqi. Whilst those from Turk are: Lazėr Mavriqi and P(j)etėr Mavriqi. Judging by their names, it is fairly clear that they were Albanians.

On top of this, Y-DNA testing has shown that the brotherhoods descending from the Mavriqi that settled in Sandžak are exclusively E-PH2180 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH2180/), a lineage that is most spread and diverse in northern Albania.

Yep, "foreigners" refers to the specific intertribal struggle for the same territory which had become part of Shala. Shala considered any other fis which lay claim to it "foreigners". It had no 'ethnic' meaning. I think that this Roman soldier myth was created in the late 19th-20th century.

Mavriqėt, qė kanė qėnė me shtrirje tė konsiderueshme dhe nė zhvendosje tė shpeshta, kjo vėrtetohet dhe nga toponimet me kėtė emėr, tė ruajtura nė viset e Shalės dhe Nikajve. Mavriqėt e Shalės dhe Nikajve janė i njėjti popull. Tradita thotė se “Fara e kėtij fisi kapej qysh nė Lug tė Ltis, si i kanė pasė thānė Krasniqes motit e deri nė Gimaj tė sodit. ….Ket’ fis kemi hjekė keq me e dyndė, pse i fortė e pasanik… Bāhen bashkė atėherė Shalė, Berishė e Krasniqe…edhe e dyndėn krejt prej vėndit… ” Ėshtė thėnė nga ndonjė studiues se Mavriqėt ishin tė huaj13, kjo nisur vetėm nga fakti se nė relacione shkruhej Mauritius (Mauric, Mavriq), si dhe fakti se kishte dhe kėshtjellė e qytezė tė Mauricit (Mavriqit) nė viset e Shalės, nga ku njė prijės romak me emrin Mauritius mund tė ketė sunduar. Kjo s’ka shumė bazė, sepse nė disa raste kemi tė ruajtur dhe emra tė mavriqasve tė vjetėr tė Currajve Epėr, dhe ata kanė njė emėr tipik shqiptar, tė besimit katolik (por dhe me patronimi emrash me rrėnjė shqipe, si ‘Gur’), p.sh. Prroni i Gjo Velit, ara e Gur Dodės14 etj. Edhe gojėdhėna e ruajtur nė katundin e Planit nė Pult tė Dukagjinit, se sipas tyre janė me prejardhje nga vėndi i Nikajve, na hedh dritė sadopak mbi tė panjohurat dhe lėvizjet e pjānasve tė Mavriqit tė Currajve. Shkrimi i vitit 1932 “Gjurmė fisesh tė panjohuna nė Shqipni” i Padėr Donat Kurtit i shqyrton tė ndarė Pjānasit nga Mavriqėt. Edhe At B. Palaj i rendit veēas, kur thotė te ‘Legjenda e fiseve’ se Mavriqi nė kėto anė “…banonte bashkė me Kapitin e Vajushit, me Plān e Luzān...”. Por bazuar nė dokumentat qė cituam mė lart (por dhe nė gojėdhana), ėshtė i njėjti popull, sepse nė relacionet 1768 te P. Onofrio dhe 1771 te Gj. Logoreci, kemi qartė shprehjen Plaia di Mauricio, pra Plāja e Mavriqit. Por nė relacionin e Marko de Lukit mė 1743, dalin si vendbanime mė vete, Mavriqi me 18 shtėpi dhe 138 banorė dhe Plaja me 17 shtėpi dhe 242 banorė (M. Palnikaj, Pulti… f. 31). Kjo tregon se ishte i njėjti popull, por me vendbanime tė ndryshme. Genc Pecnikaj, Shqyrtime nė toponiminė dhe historinė e vjetėr tė zonės sė Nikaj-Mėrturit (http://www.radiandradi.com/shqyrtime-ne-toponimine-dhe-historine-e-vjeter-te-zones-se-nikaj-merturit-nga-genc-pecnikaj/)

J Man
03-12-2021, 01:39 AM
If I recall correctly, some individuals from the Gimaj (Buē-Vataj brotherhood) or tracing their paternal ancestry back to them have tested as R1b-FT25059 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT25059/), meaning that they are in fact of the same patrilineal origin as the Shala fis.

It is pretty clear that most of the Shala fis do not consider themselves to be of the same origin as the Gimaj, however it is interesting to note that there are hints to a more distant relation. From an interview conducted by Albanian ethnographer Rrok Zojzi (qouted from here (http://shoqatadukagjini.com/gazeta/numri-56b.html)): "Me Gimajt bashkė jetojmė e bashkė punojmė, por nuk jena vėlla me ta. Gimajt e mbajnė vetėn vėlla me ne, por nuk janė tė tillė. Edhe ata kapėn tek Murr Deti, sikurse ne, por baba i pėrbashkėt ėshtė shumė larg me ne. I pari i Gimajve ėshtė i njė fisi me Nikėn, tė parin e Shalės, por jo vėlla i afėrm."

There is also a tradition among the Gimaj themselves which places them as paternally related to the Shala: "Sipas traditės gojore nė Gimaj: Gim Gjeēi ėshtė babai i gjithė Gimajve. Gjeēi Gjini / Gjin Vladi (vėlla i Pepė Vladit i cili ėshtė gjyshi i Pec Nikės me vėllezėr) / Vlad Stala / Stal Bengu / Beng Zogu / Zog Shiroka / Shirok Gjini / Gjin Murri / Murr Deti."

Although there are then multiple ethnographers who claim otherwise: "Gjinia Gimaj ėshtė nip bije i gjinisė Lotaj, i mbetun pa prind nė gjininė e Gil Nikės sė fisit tė Nikēit Kelmend, ku mori emrin e tė atit nga Gil nė Gim - Buē-Vataj ėshtė kreu i dytė i fiseve, Gjel-Vataj, Marvataj, Pavataj. Tė ngjeshur me Gimajt janė Dostanishaj, bajraktar fituar nė njė betejė lufte, Nikushaj dhe Gagu nuk e ruajnė prejardhjen e saktė tė tyrė."

Do you know if the Shala fis moved into the Shala valley as an organized fis or did their fis organization really begin to form after they settled there?

Kelmendasi
03-12-2021, 03:49 AM
Do you know if the Shala fis moved into the Shala valley as an organized fis or did their fis organization really begin to form after they settled there?
It is hard to say exactly when since they are first recorded in the late-fifteenth century via the Ottoman register of 1485, however I think the historiography does suggest that they only began expanding and becoming a fis in the territorialized sense after the Ottoman occupation and establishment of the fifteenth century, when the Shala had already arrived in the valley and formed their own settlement of the same name (Shala or Nicaj-Shalė) in the eastern half of the Shala Valley.

As Bruzmi showed, between the late-fifteenth century and early-sixteenth century, the Shala were outnumbered in regards to the number of households when compared to their anas or earlier counterparts. In 1485, the Shala had a total of eleven households whilst the Mavriqi had twenty and the Bobi five, so a total of 25. Between 1529 and 1536, the number of households for the Shala increased to fifteen, while the Mavriqi likely maintained a similar number of households as they did in the previous register and the Bobi increased to eight. However, in 1671, the Shala increase in size exponentially with their number of households elevating to 32, compared to the Bobi thirteen, and the Mavriqi who seem to have been expelled or displaced from the valley by this point in time. So the Shala themselves likely only fully established and imposed themselves by the late-seventeenth century.

J Man
03-12-2021, 05:33 AM
It is hard to say exactly when since they are first recorded in the late-fifteenth century via the Ottoman register of 1485, however I think the historiography does suggest that they only began expanding and becoming a fis in the territorialized sense after the Ottoman occupation and establishment of the fifteenth century, when the Shala had already arrived in the valley and formed their own settlement of the same name (Shala or Nicaj-Shalė) in the eastern half of the Shala Valley.

As Bruzmi showed, between the late-fifteenth century and early-sixteenth century, the Shala were outnumbered in regards to the number of households when compared to their anas or earlier counterparts. In 1485, the Shala had a total of eleven households whilst the Mavriqi had twenty and the Bobi five, so a total of 25. Between 1529 and 1536, the number of households for the Shala increased to fifteen, while the Mavriqi likely maintained a similar number of households as they did in the previous register and the Bobi increased to eight. However, in 1671, the Shala increase in size exponentially with their number of households elevating to 32, compared to the Bobi thirteen, and the Mavriqi who seem to have been expelled or displaced from the valley by this point in time. So the Shala themselves likely only fully established and imposed themselves by the late-seventeenth century.

So then most likely the Shala fis began to form as a kinship and territorial community after they settled in the Shala valley in the late 15th century...Does that sound correct?

Exercitus
03-12-2021, 09:02 PM
Now concerning the albanians in today northern Greece (and N. Macedonia also), there is a crucial issue to clarify: did they came with the "Medieval Albanian demographic 'boom' \ethnic expansion" during the beginning of the XIV century (as B.Guzelev 'desperately' tries to attribute..), or were they longstanding inhabitants before the Slavic incursion\settling!? About the Albanians\Arvanites in Thessaly, Euboea, Morea, Aetolia-Acarnania, Phthiotis, Attica-Boeotia etc there are enough evidences to demonstrate their recent settling from the year 1325 forwards. About Epirus and northwestern Greece things are a little bit more shady\ambiguous! I have read about a interesant hypothesis regarding a toponym which is spread from southwest Macedonia till Epirus, which involve a strictly linguistic matter, names like: Vasmer, Seliscev, Cabej, Ismajli, Demiraj etc till now haven't reach a unanimous consensus concerning the exact etymology. I am talking about the 6\7 Laban - ica\ovo\ista toponyms (in analogy with the Raban - ica\ovo\ista toponyms!) where did they come from, and above all why are they intrinsically connected with the medieval Albanian settlements!?

https://i.imgur.com/AGCMGeJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nLZdRMZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Eb76dzD.jpg


About Kipoureio - Κηπουρείο Γρεβενών\Grebena and Zapandi:

https://i.imgur.com/xcpBoj3.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kipoureio+511+00,+Grecia/@39.9527528,21.3273043,9248m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x13599c52ca77a3bb:0x13a84 ca9d9bcc591!8m2!3d39.9524958!4d21.3626121

Exercitus
03-12-2021, 09:06 PM
Kipoureio - Κηπουρείο Γρεβενών\Grebena and Zapandi:

https://i.imgur.com/wG58tj7.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kipoureio+511+00,+Grecia/@39.9527528,21.3273043,9248m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x13599c52ca77a3bb:0x13a84 ca9d9bcc591!8m2!3d39.9524958!4d21.3626121

Exercitus
03-12-2021, 09:42 PM
So the 'Slavic liquid metathesis and pleophony' could help us to understand the existence of this peculiar toponym: Laban (and Raban!):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_liquid_metathesis_and_pleophony#:~:text=The %20Slavic%20liquid%20metathesis%20refers,in%20the% 20East%20Slavic%20languages.

There are also glosses of Slavic words in foreign-language sources. Earlier sources show no effect of liquid metathesis, such as when the late-8th-century Greek chronicler Theophanes the Confessor writes Slavic names as Ἀρδάγαστος (Ardįgastos) and Δαργαμηρός (Dargamērós). Old Church Slavonic versions of the names, with the metathesis applied, would be Radogostъ and Dragoměrъ. Liquid metathesis is also seen in various borrowings preserved in toponymics; Latin Arba > Serbo-Croatian Rȃb, Latin Albōna > Serbo-Croatian Ląbīn, Latin Scardōna > Serbo-Croatian Skrądīn etc.

Two examples from south Albania and Epirus might help us to concretize this issue:

Delvina - alb. Ardhasovė > proto slv.(Serbo-Croatian, south slavic) Radosovo

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ardhasov%C3%AB,+Albania/@39.8799137,20.0846064,9257m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x13599c52ca77a3bb:0x 13a84ca9d9bcc591!2sKipoureio+511+00,+Grecia!3b1!8m 2!3d39.9524958!4d21.3626121!3m4!1s0x135b1214547b9a d7:0x765cc31db3724f89!8m2!3d39.8806301!4d20.120902 1

Ioannina\Janina - gr. Αρδαμιστα\Ardamista > proto slv. (Serbo-Croatian, south slavic) Radomiste

https://i.imgur.com/nHmlXpt.jpg

So it seems\ it might, that the Laban\Raban toponyms shows the presence of proto-albanian speaking population nearby the Slavic newcomers before the IX century (time when the Slavic liquid metathesis and pleophony ceased to act !), that means literally that the proto Albanians were present (significatly!) in today southwest Macedonia and north\nortwest Greece before (plausibly!) the "Migration Period", specifically the Slavic one !!

Kelmendasi
03-13-2021, 02:42 AM
It is also interesting to mention that the anthroponym Rabjan does show up in some medieval Albanian communities. For example, the head of the katun of Liēeni, which was based in the settlement of Selēisha (Selcė) in Kelmend; was a certain Rabjan, son of Kolė. This actually reflects one of the local traditions which maintains that the settlement of Selca was founded by a certain Kolė Kelmendi, and that he in turn had the sons Vui, Mai, and Rabin Kola.

I wonder if the personal name Rabjan is connected to the Slavicized toponym of Raban, and that perhaps it could indicate the ethno-linguist identity and geographic origin of the groups with the aforementioned name. If there is a connection, then perhaps the initial form of the name was something like Arbjan?

Exercitus
03-13-2021, 01:09 PM
Yes it is very interesting, but as the Linguist pr R. Ismajli has well-argumented the old Serb ethnonym for Albanians (before the IX century, when the 'Slavic liquid metathesis and pleophony' was still effective): Рабна\Рабан, actually didn't came neither from the Latin form Arbanum\Albanum neither from the Greek Arbanon\ Άρβανον, but directly from the Gheg Albanian variant - Arbėn - !!! So the Slavic people learned this ethnonym throught the direct contact with the proto-Albanians living in the areas of today Montenegro, Hercegovina, Rashka, Kosovo etc, at least two centuries before the name of medieval Albanian appears in Historical literature (Anna Komnena XI century), as also pr B. Demiraj explains here:

https://i.imgur.com/O4XH3KK.jpg

https://www.albanologie.uni-muenchen.de/downloads/publikationen-demiraj/rrenje-dhe-dege.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Albanians_and_Albania

The old variants were still in use in the Serbian Literature\Chrysobulls as a linguistic vestige\relic, as the case when Stefan Nemanja invaded Pulat\Pult (north Albania) year 1190 - ,,од Рабна оба Пилота’’ - ,,Rabna of both Pulats’’, or when the Albanian feudal Karl Topia in the year 1381 during the rebulding of the 'Saint Gjon Vladimir's Church' was proclamed as "рабански господин"- Lord of Albania\Albanians !! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Gjon_Vladimir%27s_Church
But the popular form Arbanasi\Арбанаси became much more common after the X century, as tens of toponymic\anthroponymic evidences prove it (e.g Арбанаски поток - the stream of Albanians, Drenica, central Kosovo year 1254 !!)

Exercitus
03-13-2021, 02:21 PM
Concerning the Laban - ica\ovo\ista toponyms thing are a little bit more uncertain, both Cabej and Ismajli were\are suspicious regarding the etymology of this toponyms (e.g the case of the region of Labėria which is generally accepted that it could derived from Albania - through the tosk rhotacism /n/ to /r/ - but there exist no Historical evidence for the Slavic\Bulgarian transitional form Лабанија*-Labanija* !!).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lab%C3%ABria

Anyway this 7 Laban - ica\ovo\ista toponyms present in the contact zone (proto albanian - slavic\bulgarian) could help us shed a little more light (in my opinion!), first of all because no Linguist has mention their considerable number and the specific areas of localization (mixed region of proto albanian - slavic\bulgarian), also in addition the peculiarity that this (hypothetical!) ethnonym could had came through the intermediation of the old Greek form Αλβανία\Αλβανοί, considering also the presence of Greek-speaking peoples in today north Greece\south Albania!! So probably the proto albanians were called with two different names (deriving from two different 'sources') during the VII-IX centuries, from their newcommers south slavic neighbors !!?

- Labunishta - Labuništa (Struga, N. Macedonia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labuni%C5%A1ta

https://i.imgur.com/HlQBj0T.jpg

- Labanica - Λαμπάνιτσα\Άγιος Δημήτριος (Kastoria\Kostur N. Greece, abandoned settlement)

https://i.imgur.com/2OeI5B4.jpg


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ieropigi+520+50,+Grecia/@40.6017368,21.0448336,4580m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!1m2!2m1!1zzobOs865zr_PgiDOlM63zr zOrs-Ez4HOuc6_z4Ig!3m4!1s0x135a0008679a6b65:0xa48d1001c 8c235f0!8m2!3d40.5791342!4d21.0785499

Kelmendasi
03-13-2021, 04:55 PM
I find it very interesting what Demiraj states in regard to the Albanian term shqa (including its variants shkla, shkja, shkje, etc,.):

"Emri etnik shqa me shumėsinė e varianteve dialektore (mė e hershme shkla, si edhe shkjak; shka) si edhe me format e metafonizuara tė shumėsit shqe (prė shkle, shkje/shkije, shke/shkij) ka hyrė nė shqip pa dyshim nėpėrmjet lat. sclavus, fillimisht me tri pėrbėrės semantikė: a) si emėr me kuptim pėrmledhės pėr njė pjesėtar ēfarėdo tė tribube sllave-jugore qė u dyndėn dhe u pėrhapėn ne Ballkan nė shek. VI-VII; nė bashkėlidhje mė kėtė b) "pagan" nė kuptimin "jo-kristian"; e mė vonė i kombinuar edhe me kuptimin c) "skllav" si njė "person pa tė drejta dhe pa plang" (shek. IX-XI)... Pėrdorimi i dikurshėm i shqa ehde me kuptimin "pagan;jo i krishterė"... erdhi dhe u pėrdor me kohė sipas pėrkatėsisė konfesionale ose fetare, me kuptimin "skizmatik, ortodoks; pjesėtar i kishės ortodokse bullgare, pėrkatėsisht serbe" madje edhe me konotacion negativ si "heretik".

"Shndėrrime semantike bėhen gjithnjė e mė largvajtėse, nė rast se marrim nė analizė trevat jugore tė hapėsirės kompakte shqipfolėse nė Ballkan si edhe diasporėn shqiptare nė Greqi e nė Italinė e Jugut. Kėshtu do tė vėrejmė se nė trevat e jugut ky etnikon a) ose ėshtė bjerrė tėrėsisht; b) ose komponenti etnik-gjuhėsor "sllav (i jugut)" sė bashku me derivatet e veta ėshtė zėvendėsuar me komponentin etnik-gjuhėsor "grek, jo-arvanit" nė diasporėn arbėreshe nė Italinė e Jugut... Sigurisht qė kjo situatė "e pazakonshme" nuk paraqet vėshtirėsi shpjegimi, nė rast se marrim parasysh qė shenjuesi shqa ndėr shqiptarė, tė paktėn nė periudhėn para shpėrnguljeve arvanite drejt jugut tė Greqisė dhe Peloponezit (shek. XIII), pėrballej ndėrkohė me njė ridimensionim konceptual, duke dalluar pikėrisht "fqinjin (tjetėr)", d.m.th. jo-shqiptarin."

So the term initially had three main meanings or connotations; a) denoting those belonging to any of the different South Slavic ethno-linguistic groups. b) a pagan or non-Christian. And c) an individual who had no rights, similar to how the Medieval Latin sclavus was also used (though it also become synonymous with the Slavs). Interestingly, the pagan or non-Christian connotation later expanded to include those belonging to the Orthodox denomination of Christianity (in particularly those belonging to the Bulgarian or Serbian churches), and other Christians who were seen as heretical.

Korabi
03-13-2021, 05:08 PM
I find it very interesting what Demiraj states in regard to the Albanian term shqa (including its variants shkla, shkja, shkje, etc,.):

"Emri etnik shqa me shumėsinė e varianteve dialektore (mė e hershme shkla, si edhe shkjak; shka) si edhe me format e metafonizuara tė shumėsit shqe (prė shkle, shkje/shkije, shke/shkij) ka hyrė nė shqip pa dyshim nėpėrmjet lat. sclavus, fillimisht me tri pėrbėrės semantikė: a) si emėr me kuptim pėrmledhės pėr njė pjesėtar ēfarėdo tė tribube sllave-jugore qė u dyndėn dhe u pėrhapėn ne Ballkan nė shek. VI-VII; nė bashkėlidhje mė kėtė b) "pagan" nė kuptimin "jo-kristian"; e mė vonė i kombinuar edhe me kuptimin c) "skllav" si njė "person pa tė drejta dhe pa plang" (shek. IX-XI)... Pėrdorimi i dikurshėm i shqa ehde me kuptimin "pagan;jo i krishterė"... erdhi dhe u pėrdor me kohė sipas pėrkatėsisė konfesionale ose fetare, me kuptimin "skizmatik, ortodoks; pjesėtar i kishės ortodokse bullgare, pėrkatėsisht serbe" madje edhe me konotacion negativ si "heretik".

"Shndėrrime semantike bėhen gjithnjė e mė largvajtėse, nė rast se marrim nė analizė trevat jugore tė hapėsirės kompakte shqipfolėse nė Ballkan si edhe diasporėn shqiptare nė Greqi e nė Italinė e Jugut. Kėshtu do tė vėrejmė se nė trevat e jugut ky etnikon a) ose ėshtė bjerrė tėrėsisht; b) ose komponenti etnik-gjuhėsor "sllav (i jugut)" sė bashku me derivatet e veta ėshtė zėvendėsuar me komponentin etnik-gjuhėsor "grek, jo-arvanit" nė diasporėn arbėreshe nė Italinė e Jugut... Sigurisht qė kjo situatė "e pazakonshme" nuk paraqet vėshtirėsi shpjegimi, nė rast se marrim parasysh qė shenjuesi shqa ndėr shqiptarė, tė paktėn nė periudhėn para shpėrnguljeve arvanite drejt jugut tė Greqisė dhe Peloponezit (shek. XIII), pėrballej ndėrkohė me njė ridimensionim konceptual, duke dalluar pikėrisht "fqinjin (tjetėr)", d.m.th. jo-shqiptarin."

So the term initially had three main meanings or connotations; a) denoting those belonging to any of the different South Slavic ethno-linguistic groups. b) a pagan or non-Christian. And c) an individual who had no rights, similar to how the Medieval Latin sclavus was also used (though it also become synonymous with the Slavs). Interestingly, the pagan or non-Christian connotation later expanded to include those belonging to the Orthodox denomination of Christianity (in particularly those belonging to the Bulgarian or Serbian churches), and other Christians who were seen as heretical.

Which means Albanian Orthodox Christians were probably wrongly described as Slavs. At least in the north, as I assume Southern Albanians were part of the Greek Orthodox church.

Kelmendasi
03-13-2021, 05:31 PM
Which means Albanian Orthodox Christians were probably wrongly described as Slavs. At least in the north, as I assume Southern Albanians were part of the Greek Orthodox church.
It is possible that they too may have been described as such, however likely only in the religious sense. I believe the ethno-linguistic sense was more dominant and that they still would have been held as Albanians. From the registers of the medieval we know that religious identity and profession was quite complex, in a number of Albanian settlements we see that there are Catholic Christians as well as Orthodox Christians living in the same settlement (e.g., the village of Pok, modern Pog in Kir, the Catholic priest Andrija Shirgji is recorded alongside the Orthodox priest Nenada in the defter of 1485).

Even in the same tribal community or fis there were religious differences. In the fis of the Tuzi, the settlement of Damniē Tuz (modern Kamicė-Flakė in Malėsi) is recorded as having housed the Orthodox priest Martin, whilst the other settlements of the Tuzi had Catholic clergy (e.g., the priest Jaku in Istulush Tuz). Despite their religious differences, the Tuzi from Damniē Tuz were for sure still seen as belonging to the community. However, it is clear that the Roman Catholic faith was most typically associated with the Albanians as a people by others. This is evidenced by the term Arbanaška vera (lit. "Albanian faith" in Serbian) which was used to denote Albanians of the Catholic faith by the Slavs (particularly the Serbs). However, it is worth mentioning that the Serbs during the medieval period had extensive contacts with the Albanians of the north who were predominantly Catholic, as opposed to the southern Albanians who adhered to the Orthodox faith.

Korabi
03-13-2021, 06:01 PM
It is possible that they too may have been described as such, however likely only in the religious sense. I believe the ethno-linguistic sense was more dominant and that they still would have been held as Albanians. From the registers of the medieval we know that religious identity and profession was quite complex, in a number of Albanian settlements we see that there are Catholic Christians as well as Orthodox Christians living in the same settlement (e.g., the village of Pok, modern Pog in Kir, the Catholic priest Andrija Shirgji is recorded alongside the Orthodox priest Nenada in the defter of 1485).

Even in the same tribal community or fis there were religious differences. In the fis of the Tuzi, the settlement of Damniē Tuz is recorded as having housed the Orthodox priest Martin, whilst the other settlements of the Tuzi had Catholic clergy (e.g., the priest Jaku in Istulush Tuz). Despite their religious differences, the Tuzi from Damniē Tuz were for sure still seen as belonging to the community. However, it is clear that the Roman Catholic faith was most typically associated with the Albanians as a people by others. This is evidenced by the term Arbanaška vera (lit. "Albanian faith" in Serbian) which was used to denote Albanians of the Catholic faith by the Slavs (particularly the Serbs). However, it is worth mentioning that the Serbs during the medieval period had extensive contacts with the Albanians of the north who were predominantly Catholic, as opposed to the southern Albanians who adhered to the Orthodox faith.

The point I'm making is, the same as NW Albanians were claimed to be Serbs based on some carying Slavic names, the same phenomenon was occurring in the Eastern and Southern parts of Albania, where Orthodox Albanians are being called Bulgarians or Greeks depending on their church and names.

Theres a sort of double standard when we evaluate these various defters and their sources. Be they historically recent, or older.

Anytime North West Albanians from Mali Zi have Slavic names or are claimed as Serbs, everyone rushes to defend and argue the religious mechanisms behind Albanians adopting Slavic names not making them Serbs. Which I agree. It doesn't make them Serbs.

Yet when it concerns the same scenario in the South and East(including Albanians in Macedonia), alot of people including some Albanians here, will not use the same reasoning and just call them Bulgarians and Greeks, depending on their church affiliation and names. Using Serbian and Bulgarian sources to top it off. Lol it's hypocritical to say the least.

People can't have a double standard in evaluating these sorts of things. My name is Turkish. What if I carried this name and was a Muslim Albanian in the middle ages? Chances are a defter would have recorded me as Turk(Muhammddan) on faith alone.

This is no different where it concerns Albanian Orthodox Christians belonging to Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek churches being recorded as such on this basis. Greeks even identified Muslim Albanians and Christian Albanians separately. Christians were either Arvanites or Greek and Muslims were classified as Turks.

And while you can still catch some etymologically Albanian names among the Orthodox groups East and West. This doesn't mean those who chose names based on their church affiliations were not Albanian either.

The reality is more complex than that as I am sure you would agree. None of us lived back then nor bore witness to these settlements and people's to know what they considered themselves. It's mostly grasping at straws based on recorded documents with huge gaps in time.

More often than not some truths can be over exaggerated by some here, whilst others are concealed.

Bruzmi
03-13-2021, 06:04 PM
Which means Albanian Orthodox Christians were probably wrongly described as Slavs. At least in the north, as I assume Southern Albanians were part of the Greek Orthodox church.

It may sound paradoxical but there was no Greek Orthodox Church in medieval times. "National" churches were a division which the Patriarchate of Constantinople fought against for a very long time in the name of ecumenism. Participation in the Serbian Orthodox Church involved a sort of "ethno-religious conversion" via the strict use of Cyrillic liturgy, Slavic Orthodox rites, Slavic name giving, change of patron saints to the corresponding ones in the Serbian Orthodox Church etc. Being an Orthodox Albanian under the Patriarchate of Constantinople meant no such imposition in medieval times. Otherwise, Nephon II of Constantinople (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephon_II_of_Constantinople), of Albanian origin, wouldn't become Patriarch of Constantinople in 1486.

Chatzianastasoglou
03-13-2021, 06:15 PM
It may sound paradoxical but there was no Greek Orthodox Church in medieval times. "National" churches were a division which the Patriarchate of Constantinople fought against for a very long time in the name of ecumenism. Participation in the Serbian Orthodox Church involved a sort of "ethno-religious conversion" via the strict use of Cyrillic liturgy, Slavic Orthodox rites, Slavic name giving, change of patron saints to the corresponding ones in the Serbian Orthodox Church etc. Being an Orthodox Albanian under the Patriarchate of Constantinople meant no such imposition in medieval times. Otherwise, Nephon II of Constantinople (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephon_II_of_Constantinople), of Albanian origin, wouldn't become Patriarch of Constantinople in 1486.
Greek orthodox means Greek by language in the first place. There were no national churches of course in medieval times. But the Patriarchate of Constantinople the orthodox Albanians belonged to was a culturally Greek Patriarchate as it is till today. Because Greek is the main and original language of Orthodoxy. So the Patriarchate of Constantinople can very well be described as a Greek orthodox church.

Korabi
03-13-2021, 06:18 PM
It may sound paradoxical but there was no Greek Orthodox Church in medieval times. "National" churches were a division which the Patriarchate of Constantinople fought against for a very long time in the name of ecumenism. Participation in the Serbian Orthodox Church involved a sort of "ethno-religious conversion" via the strict use of Cyrillic liturgy, Slavic Orthodox rites, Slavic name giving, change of patron saints to the corresponding ones in the Serbian Orthodox Church etc. Being an Orthodox Albanian under the Patriarchate of Constantinople meant no such imposition in medieval times. Otherwise, Nephon II of Constantinople (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephon_II_of_Constantinople), of Albanian origin, wouldn't become Patriarch of Constantinople in 1486.

Interesting. So perhaps this scenario is not as common in South Albanian Christians. However, this imposition was likely suffered by all Northern/Gheg Orthodox Albanians affiliated with both the Serbian and Bulgarian churches. As they both used Cyrillic liturgy.

Kelmendasi
03-13-2021, 06:22 PM
The point I'm making is, the same as NW Albanians were claimed to be Serbs based on some carying Slavic names, the same phenomenon was occurring in the Eastern and Southern parts of Albania, where Orthodox Albanians are being called Bulgarians or Greeks depending on their church.

Theres a sort of double standard when we evaluate these various defters and their sources. Be they historically recent, or older.
Anytime North West Albanians from Mali Zi have Slavic names or are claimed as Serbs, everyone rushes to defend and argue the religious mechanisms behind Albanians adopting Slavic names not making them Serbs. Which I agree. It doesn't make them Serbs.

Yet when it concerns the same scenario in the South and East(including Albanians in Macedonia), alot of people including some Albanians here, will not use the same reasoning and just call them Bulgarians and Greeks, depending on their church affiliation and names. Using Serbian and Bulgarian sources to top it off. Lol it's hypocritical to say the least.

People can't have a double standard in evaluating these sorts of things. My name is Turkish. What if I carried this name and was a Muslim Albanian in the middle ages? Chances are a defter would have recorded me as Turk(Muhammddan) on faith alone.

This is no different where it concerns Albanian Orthodox Christians belonging to Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek churches being recorded as such on this basis alone. Greeks even identified Muslim Albanians and Christian Albanians separately. Christians were either Arvanites or Greek and Muslims were classified as Turks.

And while you can still catch some etymologically Albanian names among the Orthodox groups East and West. This doesn't mean those who chose names based on their church affiliations were not Albanian either.

The reality is more complex than that as I am sure you would agree. It's just that one truth can be over exaggerated by some here, whilst others are concealed.
Yes, the reality was and is very complex, and cannot be fully ascertained through the use of historical documents or records. However, they do for sure aid us a lot in understanding these things better. Deductions must not only be made on the basis of names, other factors such as religious denomination or identity and kinship ties should be taken into consideration. For example, the Albanian historian Selami Pulaha who's works have been among the most useful in understanding medieval Albanian society states the following:

"Sipas tė dhėnave tė defterit nė fjalė, gjejmė nė zonėn fushore tė krahinės sė Shkodrės njė varg fshatrash qė janė tė banuar krejtėsisht ose nė shumicėn e tyre nga pjestarėt e njė fisi shqiptar, kryepari i tė cilit i ka dhėnė emrin e vet edhe fshatit. Nė tė tillė vendbanime, ku lidhjet e gjakut ishin ende shumė tė forta, mė tė forta se lidhjet territoriale, gjejmė edhe antroponimi sllavė pėr degėt, kunorėt qė kishin rrjedhur nga kryepari i fisit me emėr thjesht shqiptar. Kjo jo vetėm nuk do tė thotė se bijtė, pasardhėsit e atij kryepari ishin sllavė, por vėrteton edhe se antroponimia sllave qė pėrdorin pjestarėt e kėtij fisi shqiptar nuk kishte ardhur si rezultat i njė simbioze midis shqiptarėve dhe sllavėve, por si pasoj e ndikimit tė faktorėve politikė dhe fetarė gjatė periudhės sė sundimit serb nė kėto toka."

Bruzmi
03-13-2021, 06:24 PM
Greek orthodox means Greek by language in the first place. There were no national churches of course in medieval times. But the Patriarchate of Constantinople the orthodox Albanians belonged to was a culturally Greek Patriarchate as it is till today. Because Greek is the main and original language of Orthodoxy. So the Patriarchate of Constantinople can very well be described as a Greek orthodox church.

My argument is not to deny that the Patriarchate of Constantinople used the Greek language, but to note that the "culture" of the Patriarchate was a Byzantine Imperial culture which was inclusive of other cultures in stark contrast to the "national" Slavic Orthodox Churches. The loss of the inclusive imperial identity in favor of an identity more or less similar to the identity of other "Balkan national churches" is, in my opinion, a late phenomenon which can't be retrogressively applied to the 15th century. A Gjin could still be a Gjin (as we've seen in countless defters) and someone of Albanian origin could even become Patriarch, something which wasn't possible in any Slavic Orthodox Church.

Chatzianastasoglou
03-13-2021, 06:28 PM
And of course the Ecumenical Patriarchate is still today strictly non national. I disagree that it lost its ecumenical identity. A Gjin could till today become a Patriarch, but of course according to the tradition of it which is a Greek one. But that’s nothing new, it has always been like that

Korabi
03-13-2021, 06:33 PM
Yes, the reality was and is very complex, and cannot be fully ascertained through the use of historical documents or records. However, they do for sure aid us a lot in understanding these things better. Deductions must not only be made on the basis of names, other factors such as religious denomination or identity and kinship ties should be taken into consideration. For example, the Albanian historian Selami Pulaha who's works have been among the most useful in understanding medieval Albanian society states the following:

"Sipas tė dhėnave tė defterit nė fjalė, gjejmė nė zonėn fushore tė krahinės sė Shkodrės njė varg fshatrash qė janė tė banuar krejtėsisht ose nė shumicėn e tyre nga pjestarėt e njė fisi shqiptar, kryepari i tė cilit i ka dhėnė emrin e vet edhe fshatit. Nė tė tillė vendbanime, ku lidhjet e gjakut ishin ende shumė tė forta, mė tė forta se lidhjet territoriale, gjejmė edhe antroponimi sllavė pėr degėt, kunorėt qė kishin rrjedhur nga kryepari i fisit me emėr thjesht shqiptar. Kjo jo vetėm nuk do tė thotė se bijtė, pasardhėsit e atij kryepari ishin sllavė, por vėrteton edhe se antroponimia sllave qė pėrdorin pjestarėt e kėtij fisi shqiptar nuk kishte ardhur si rezultat i njė simbioze midis shqiptarėve dhe sllavėve, por si pasoj e ndikimit tė faktorėve politikė dhe fetarė gjatė periudhės sė sundimit serb nė kėto toka."

True, I agree. However, these sources can and often are manipulated to appeal to one agenda or another. Be they Slavic or Albanian. Which is where exaggerating or concealing certain truths come into play.

Also, I agree all these factors need to be taken in tandem when making sense of these complex narratives. Sadly, many people including Albanians will only focus on one of these. Prime among them being kinship ties/fis, which, may only be best for understanding specific brotherhoods and the formation of these practices in the medieval North West Albanians.

This doesn't tell us about the rest of Albanians who didn't adhere to the fis system, be it in the rest of Albania or Macedonia, or even later Proto-Albanian developments that fall out of this umbrella. Theres obviously an agenda by all sides, and neither of them fully adhere to the truth.

The reality will probably piss off everyone to some extent for not conforming fully to one narrative or another. In time it will be made clear when uniting all disciplines of science including genetics.

Kelmendasi
03-13-2021, 06:50 PM
True, I agree. However, these sources can and often are manipulated to appeal to one agenda or another. Be they Slavic or Albanian. Which is where exaggerating or concealing certain truths come into play.

Also, I agree all these factors need to be taken in tandem when making sense of these complex narratives. Sadly, many people including Albanians will only focus on one of these. Prime among them being kinship ties/fis, which, may only be best for understanding specific brotherhoods and the formation of these practices in the medieval North West Albanians.

This doesn't tell us about the rest of Albanians who didn't adhere to the fis system, be it in the rest of Albania or Macedonia, or even later Proto-Albanian developments that fall out of the this umbrella. Theres obviously an agenda by all sides, and neither of them fully adhere to the truth.

The reality will probably pass off everyone for not conforming fully to one narrative or another. In time it will be made clear when uniting all disciplines of science including genetics.
What is interesting to mention is that many of the older Albanian historians or scholars on medieval Albania and Albanian-speaking territories, such as Selami Pulaha and Muhamet Tėrnava, largely based their works on primary sources from the period of time in question and directly translated these. They largely did not have much political or national bias. Though, of course, some did have biases and with later years there has been an increase in nationalistic agendas, however we should not dismiss the works that are academically very valuable based on this.

The fis system or community was present outside of north-western Albania and the adjacent regions. This communal and social system was present in the north-east, Kosovo, and even in Dibra to a degree during the medieval. The fis after all is just a community with patrilineal kinship ties which is also tied to a specific geographical territory. In the defter of 1467 for example, fise such as the Reēi who were based in the core settlements of Reēi i Madh and Reēi i Vogėl but also spread to other settlements, are recorded.

Korabi
03-13-2021, 07:06 PM
What is interesting to mention is that many of the older Albanian historians or scholars on medieval Albania and Albanian-speaking territories, such as Selami Pulaha and Muhamet Tėrnava, largely based their works on primary sources from the period of time in question and directly translated these. They largely did not have much political or national bias. Though, of course, some did have biases and with later years there has been an increase in nationalistic agendas, however we should not dismiss the works that are academically very valuable based on this.

The fis system or community was present outside of north-western Albania and the adjacent regions. This communal and social system was present in the north-east, Kosovo, and even in Dibra to a degree during the medieval. The fis after all is just a community with patrilineal kinship ties which is also tied to a specific geographical territory. In the defter of 1467 for example, fise such as the Reēi who were based in the core settlements of Reēi i Madh and Reēi i Vogėl but also spread to other settlements, are recorded.

No I didn't say they had an agenda. I mean every day wanabe forum scholars/geneticists be they Albanian or otherwise who act like an authority in the matter. Lol. Sadly most people spread baseless agendas more than the actual facts. Not you of course. You're probably one of the few that actually tries to remain factual.

The fis system does not apply to all Albanians though. At least if we are talking about fis system in its purest form. This would only include North West Albanians mostly. Using this system to define early and medieval Albanians in their entirety is counter productive.

It certainly does not answer the question of Albanian origins outside of the medieval brotherhoods. The north west is the most strict in this sense and has been the prime topic of discussion regarding Albanian origins. It may answer some questions regarding early proto Albanian bloodlines. But there are those here who try to apply this as a rule of thumb for the origin of all Albanians and their history at various intervals. Which would be a lie.

Not all Albanians in the medieval and earlier followed this strict fis system. So using it as a measuring stick to understand our entire socio-cultural/linguistic/historical and ethno-genetic evolution as well as defining who is or isn't Albanian based on this system is disingenuous. At best it may give us clues into our archaic past. Which goes back to what you said. We need to unite all of these disciplines to bring us closer to the truth.

J Man
03-13-2021, 09:53 PM
What is interesting to mention is that many of the older Albanian historians or scholars on medieval Albania and Albanian-speaking territories, such as Selami Pulaha and Muhamet Tėrnava, largely based their works on primary sources from the period of time in question and directly translated these. They largely did not have much political or national bias. Though, of course, some did have biases and with later years there has been an increase in nationalistic agendas, however we should not dismiss the works that are academically very valuable based on this.

The fis system or community was present outside of north-western Albania and the adjacent regions. This communal and social system was present in the north-east, Kosovo, and even in Dibra to a degree during the medieval. The fis after all is just a community with patrilineal kinship ties which is also tied to a specific geographical territory. In the defter of 1467 for example, fise such as the Reēi who were based in the core settlements of Reēi i Madh and Reēi i Vogėl but also spread to other settlements, are recorded.

The defter of 1467 for example, fise such as the Reēi who were based in the core settlements of Reēi i Madh and Reēi i Vogėl...Is this the Reēi from the Shkoder area that you are talking about?

Kelmendasi
03-14-2021, 01:37 AM
The defter of 1467 for example, fise such as the Reēi who were based in the core settlements of Reēi i Madh and Reēi i Vogėl...Is this the Reēi from the Shkoder area that you are talking about?
No, the Reēi recorded in the register of 1467 are those from northern Dibra. In later centuries they would become one of the nine mountains or male of Dibra.

J Man
03-14-2021, 02:05 AM
No, the Reēi recorded in the register of 1467 are those from northern Dibra. In later centuries they would become one of the nine mountains or male of Dibra.

Ahhh yes ok thanks...Also thanks for replying to my PM..I tried to send you another but your mailbox is full.

Kelmendasi
03-14-2021, 02:26 AM
Ahhh yes ok thanks...Also thanks for replying to my PM..I tried to send you another but your mailbox is full.
No worries, I have cleared it so feel free to try again.

gjergj
03-14-2021, 08:13 PM
No, the Reēi recorded in the register of 1467 are those from northern Dibra. In later centuries they would become one of the nine mountains or male of Dibra.

The Reci of Shkodra is very well tested. Some interesting haplos for the north of the country there but no slavic lines.
Also the Reci area of Diber/west part of Dibra has very good diversity of haplos with some of them also very old but not the most typical of the albanian north. Again no slavic lines in that area.
At least at the Rrenjet Database.

The west part of Dibra is definitively worth testing more and some are needed with high resolution as it has also some very interesting haplos that don't fit in the standart R1b/J2b/E-V13 trio.

Exercitus
03-14-2021, 09:07 PM
I am aware and i agree (at least till a certain degree!) that the Serbian Medieval Authorities ( & Autocephalous Serbian Orthodox Church) had a quite discriminatory attitude toward the non-serbian citizens (especially Vlachs and Albanians!), Dušan's Code\Душанов законик it's a prove of that!! But we shouldn't talk in absolute terms, the ethnic symbiose\intermixing indeed has occured!!! The Orthodox and Catholic Albanians (gheg and tosk) have incorporated and utilized the Slavic anthroponymy in an 'excessive' manner, i dare to define, even in the extrem south of Morea\Peleponnese the Albanians used typical Slavic onomastics and toponymy although no one 'obligated' them, there were no slavic-speaking people around them (the last slavs in Morea were Hellenizated at the end of the XIII century)!! I understand that the issue of Kosovo is an 'opened wound' but we should face the Historical and Genetic fact with a much more open-minded and moderate way!! Kosovo was a beautiful example of that symbiosis Serbs, Albanian and Vlachs living together.
About the Albanians in Kosovo during the XV and XVI (in the basis of the Ottoman Defters) pr. Selami Pulaha has published a masterpiece:
S. Pulaha "Popullsia Shqiptare e Kosoves gjate shek. XV-XVI" - "The Albanian population of Kosovo during the XV-XVI centuries"
https://vdocuments.mx/179876370-s-pulaha-popullsia-shqiptare-e-kosoves-gjate-shekujve-xv-xvi.html

Concerning the assimilation process of the Orthodox Albanians in Metohije\Rrafsh i Dukagjinit i suggest you to read this pages:

https://i.imgur.com/cwnUkyc.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Pxanp31.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5diur5n.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/DKC5oHn.jpg

where he describes the partial(!) Serbization of the wellknown Albanian villages 'Arbanasi Katuns' mentioned in the Chrysobull of the year 1348, donated to the St. Archangel Monastery, Prizren. From the year 1348 to the Defter of 1485 (village Magjerica still Orthodox Albanian with Slavic influence) till to the Defter of 1591 where we face a community with overwhelming Serbian anthroponymy and a minority of muslim onomastics (in analogy with the Kuci and Piperi Albanians after the XVII century, due to social\religious factors). The explanation by pr. Pulaha it's quite logic; the religious-political factor, this villages were propriety of the St. Archangel Monastery, the constant influence during the centuries was much more higher and effective that in the other Albanian-speaking villages (Orthodox and Catholic) in Metohije!!
Also he mentioned how widespread the Slavic\Serbian onomastic was among Medieval Albanians, not only among the Orthodox Albanians of Hoča\Hoēė Nahija (where they constituted the majority!) but also among the Catholic Albanians of Pashtrik, Domeshtica, Rudina and Opolje\Opoje!!

Now few year ago was published the Defter of the Sanjak of Prizren year 1571, (in serbian);
"Opširni popis prizrenskog sandžaka iz 1571. godine" - ""Extensive list of the Prizren Sandzak from year 1571"
It was nice but kind of disappointing, especially the last part regarding the ethnic maps when to each ethnicity is attributed a specific color:
pink -> Serbs;
yellow -> Christian Albanians;
green -> Muslims.

https://i.imgur.com/IRohjuO.jpg

I will focus in the most erroneous\misleading (deliberate i guess!) part- Prizren area - !!

You can judge by youselfs !!

Christian Villages generally labeled as pure serbian, few examples:

Moderator
03-14-2021, 09:18 PM
A general message to all: Please stay on topic and refrain from irrelevant personal, back-and-forth discussions. You are free to use the PM function for such issues, provided of course that you are respectful to each other there, as the Terms of Service still apply. Also, a reminder that discussion of modern politics and religion are off limits:


3.22 Any and all current or modern political and religious discussion is prohibited on Anthrogenica. Historical political or religious discussion is welcome in the appropriate History subsection, provided that it doesn't veer into the modern era. Further, material in signatures or avatars deemed by the Administration to be of political or religious activist nature will also breach this Term. Members are advised to limit the scope of organic tangents arising from discussions and actively discourage others from doing similarly. Failure by participants to limit said tangents will be construed by the administration as a breach to section 3.10 and/or 3.12 above.

Exercitus
03-14-2021, 09:21 PM
- Village Smaē, year 1571

https://i.imgur.com/d9gYDqY.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sma%C3%A7/@42.2895641,20.6757331,9729m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x135397d2798a6677:0x5900eaa9f68b 952d!8m2!3d42.3003493!4d20.7249141

- Village Leskovec, year 1571

https://i.imgur.com/IMkLvmI.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Leskovec/@42.1800989,20.7011359,4873m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x1353eab10510ceb3:0x1186fbe6ce3c 421d!8m2!3d42.176496!4d20.7282615

- Village Jeshkove, year 1571

https://i.imgur.com/nbOaMnp.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Jeshkov%C3%AB/@42.1709627,20.6518118,9747m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x1353c025a254aaf1:0x80dc8e15f587 ec8e!8m2!3d42.1604887!4d20.7045078

- Village Jabllanica

https://i.imgur.com/tYhuLtc.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Jabllanic%C3%AB/@42.1713236,20.7321185,9747m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x1353eb2c1e4793a9:0xdb0949e1960d ce8b!8m2!3d42.1707512!4d20.7666492

- Village Upper Serbica

https://i.imgur.com/7cCULwn.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Serbic%C3%AB+e+Ep%C3%ABrme/@42.2755225,20.695914,4866m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x135396187e3acbb7:0x8289214eef0a b9fa!8m2!3d42.2796584!4d20.7219315


- Village Hoce e Qytetit

https://i.imgur.com/xs4mTfh.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ho%C3%A7%C3%AB+e+Qytetit/@42.1768217,20.6544009,9746m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x1353c012a22e5465:0xc05247153b24 1aac!8m2!3d42.1749177!4d20.6900024


- Village Struzhe

https://i.imgur.com/MqKYZci.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Struzh%C3%AB/@42.1449229,20.7847488,2438m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x1353eb6fa7efe423:0x26f2deb64edf 93fa!8m2!3d42.144378!4d20.7934713

- Village Ljobojna (unknown)

https://i.imgur.com/mWG2yP0.jpg


etc etc

trdbr1234
03-14-2021, 09:31 PM
No I didn't say they had an agenda. I mean every day wanabe forum scholars/geneticists be they Albanian or otherwise who act like an authority in the matter. Lol. Sadly most people spread baseless agendas more than the actual facts. Not you of course. You're probably one of the few that actually tries to remain factual.

The fis system does not apply to all Albanians though. At least if we are talking about fis system in its purest form. This would only include North West Albanians mostly. Using this system to define early and medieval Albanians in their entirety is counter productive.

It certainly does not answer the question of Albanian origins outside of the medieval brotherhoods. The north west is the most strict in this sense and has been the prime topic of discussion regarding Albanian origins. It may answer some questions regarding early proto Albanian bloodlines. But there are those here who try to apply this as a rule of thumb for the origin of all Albanians and their history at various intervals. Which would be a lie.

Not all Albanians in the medieval and earlier followed this strict fis system. So using it as a measuring stick to understand our entire socio-cultural/linguistic/historical and ethno-genetic evolution as well as defining who is or isn't Albanian based on this system is disingenuous. At best it may give us clues into our archaic past. Which goes back to what you said. We need to unite all of these disciplines to bring us closer to the truth.

You know, what is interesting is that fis in the Diber area is used for maternal relations as well as paternal. The way I've always heard it is in relation to anyone you have blood relations with. I think this is the core difference between North Albania and Central/South Albania. As in, North Albania doesn't recognize maternal descent, while Central and Southern Albania does. There are some interesting dissimilarities that arise from this. For example, The husband of your daughter can become part of your fis and even adopt the surname, as seems to have occurred frequently. While in North Albania(At least officially), this should not have been possible. There are some other divergences that arise from this. For example, some recent studies have categorized North Albania and Montenegro as being more "inbred" than usual, despite having some of the most elaborate kinship vocabulary. I think it would be interesting if different members posted their Gedmatch repeating pairs to test this. Although I imagine those having high values would not post their results.

gjergj
03-14-2021, 09:39 PM
- Village Smaē, year 1571

https://i.imgur.com/d9gYDqY.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sma%C3%A7/@42.2895641,20.6757331,9729m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x135397d2798a6677:0x5900eaa9f68b 952d!8m2!3d42.3003493!4d20.7249141

- Village Leskovec, year 1571

https://i.imgur.com/IMkLvmI.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Leskovec/@42.1800989,20.7011359,4873m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x1353eab10510ceb3:0x1186fbe6ce3c 421d!8m2!3d42.176496!4d20.7282615

- Village Jeshkove, year 1571

https://i.imgur.com/nbOaMnp.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Jeshkov%C3%AB/@42.1709627,20.6518118,9747m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x1353c025a254aaf1:0x80dc8e15f587 ec8e!8m2!3d42.1604887!4d20.7045078

- Village Jabllanica

https://i.imgur.com/tYhuLtc.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Jabllanic%C3%AB/@42.1713236,20.7321185,9747m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x1353eb2c1e4793a9:0xdb0949e1960d ce8b!8m2!3d42.1707512!4d20.7666492

- Village Upper Serbica

https://i.imgur.com/7cCULwn.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Serbic%C3%AB+e+Ep%C3%ABrme/@42.2755225,20.695914,4866m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x135396187e3acbb7:0x8289214eef0a b9fa!8m2!3d42.2796584!4d20.7219315


- Village Hoce e Qytetit

https://i.imgur.com/xs4mTfh.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ho%C3%A7%C3%AB+e+Qytetit/@42.1768217,20.6544009,9746m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x1353c012a22e5465:0xc05247153b24 1aac!8m2!3d42.1749177!4d20.6900024


- Village Struzhe

https://i.imgur.com/MqKYZci.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Struzh%C3%AB/@42.1449229,20.7847488,2438m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x1353eb6fa7efe423:0x26f2deb64edf 93fa!8m2!3d42.144378!4d20.7934713

- Village Ljobojna (unknown)

https://i.imgur.com/mWG2yP0.jpg


etc etc

Very interesting material. Definitively worth reading.
Even though I am not sure how much in themselves they can help up understand real identity of these people.
From the last few centuries we have noticed that overall albanians have shown high elasticity/plasticity in borrowing facades/names. you can even say it has been a very useful tool of deeper identity survival among albanians during middle ages and latter.
The fact that the serbian feudal system was build earlier than the albanian one and with a consolidated/centralized church authority has helped influence greatly naming and other at least outside symbols of the albanian population in the area.
From the current testing we have seen in Kosova most of these should have been albanian population from the dna point of view. But east/south east of Prizeren area you can find some slavic lines in the villages though and not completely insignificant nr.

Aspar
03-14-2021, 09:42 PM
Sure Sorcelow,

- Village Milotin - Μηλιά Kozani

https://i.imgur.com/VvwOTzm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QXCJoXC.jpg

- Village Velijdi - Λευκοπηγή Kozani

https://i.imgur.com/LxV32sM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4oAjfLO.jpg


- Village Spirilit - Καρυδίτσα Kozani

https://i.imgur.com/1LpCUm3.jpg


- Village Izisko - Φρούριο Kozani

https://i.imgur.com/ACESUkm.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/mdrUuL8.jpg

As these should be in the viayet of Salonika do you have anything for the nahiye of Olivir in the kaza of Yeńice-i Vardar in the same vilayet?
I'm especially interested for Koncisko [Konēko]529 k., [Olivir n.], Yeńice-i Vardar kz, a village mentioned in 1514 - 1530 defter: https://rumeliturkmenleri.wordpress.com/rumeli-sol-kazalari-1514/

The name of the same village appears mostly in South Albania and North-West Greece and I believe the inhabitants of the same village I'm interested for migrated from those places sometime before the 16-th century.

trdbr1234
03-14-2021, 09:42 PM
Very interesting material. Definitively worth reading.
Even though I am not sure how much in themselves they can help up understand real identity of these people.
From the last few centuries we have noticed that overall albanians have shown high elasticity/plasticity in borrowing facades/names. you can even say it has been a very useful tool of deeper identity survival among albanians during middle ages and latter.
The fact that the serbian feudal system was build earlier than the albanian one and with a consolidated/centralized church authority has helped influence greatly naming and other at least outside symbols of the albanian population in the area.
From the current testing we have seen in Kosova most of these should have been albanian population from the dna point of view. But east/south east of Prizeren area you can find some slavic lines in the villages though and not completely insignificant nr.

Does the project have any members from the Gorani community? Are you aware of results from Gorani?

trdbr1234
03-14-2021, 09:45 PM
S. Pulaha "Popullsia Shqiptare e Kosoves gjate shek. XV-XVI" - "The Albanian population of Kosovo during the XV-XVI centuries"
https://vdocuments.mx/179876370-s-pulaha-popullsia-shqiptare-e-kosoves-gjate-shekujve-xv-xvi.html



That is awesome. Thanks for providing a link to Pulaha's work. Can you recommend material on the Komani Culture?

gjergj
03-14-2021, 09:55 PM
Does the project have any members from the Gorani community? Are you aware of results from Gorani?

Not enough on the albanian side. They have been hard to test :)
But there seems to have a trend that there are more slavic lines in the local area. Same thing on the Kosova side.

We have Golloborda very well/extremely well tested. Thanks to support/donations from dedicated members.
Gorani should be one of our next future targets I guess.
But we have also noticed some non standart haplos there that dont fit with the more standart hg of the slavs or the albanians. So I doubt there will be a black and white picture when we get more tests.

trdbr1234
03-14-2021, 09:57 PM
Not enough on the albanian side. They have been hard to test :)
But there seems to have a trend that there are more slavic lines in the local area. Same thing on the Kosova side.

We have Golloborda very well/extremely well tested. Thanks to support/donations from dedicated members.
Gorani should be one of our next future targets I guess.
But we have also noticed some non standart haplos there that dont fit with the more standart hg of the slavs or the albanians. So I doubt there will be a black and white picture when we get more tests.
What are the results from Gora so far?

I'm from Golloborde. I am part of your project.

Do you have an opinion on the results from Golloborde? I would be really interested in hearing your opinion.

Exercitus
03-14-2021, 09:58 PM
Mixed Serbian-Muslim(?!) Villages(Abdullah -> newly converted, a local inhabitant converted):

- Village Vlashnje

https://i.imgur.com/rSbuYjq.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Vlashnj%C3%AB/@42.1970887,20.5893966,19486m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x1353bf7fbee416eb:0x7da483f0c008 6918!8m2!3d42.200992!4d20.6609917

- Village Tupec

https://i.imgur.com/cC8wub7.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tupec/@42.2447295,20.6314658,9736m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x1353be6102b29f7d:0x8db0b4129c6e aa76!8m2!3d42.2547601!4d20.6690598


- Village Novak

https://i.imgur.com/sC5ohDZ.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Novak/@42.2822817,20.7162666,9730m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x135397a7d22c7a5d:0x67c8339c28c9 333c!8m2!3d42.3015316!4d20.7562208

- Village Zahum (Zym ??)

https://i.imgur.com/evdzPRW.jpg

etc etc

As you ca see the ethnic composition back than was quite different from the map presented from the author!!
There is another Defter, that of eastern Kosovo, an area around Novo brdo-Gnjilan\Gjilan-Preshevo, of the year 1498, "REGJISTRIMI I VENDBANIMEVE DHE I POPULLESISE SE KAZASE SE NOVOBERDES SIPAS DEFTERIT TE FUNDSHEKULLIT XV" another example of the Serbian-Albanian symbiose, Serbians with Y-Dna: R-BY611>Z2705, J-Y21045 & J-PH1751>Z38299, E-Z17107 etc can detect their roots in this people !!

- The Orthodox Albanian Village Makreshi\Доњи Макреш, eastern Kosovo, year 1498

https://i.imgur.com/ACKLp3V.jpg


https://www.google.com/maps/place/%D0%94%D0%BE%D1%9A%D0%B8+%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%80% D0%B5%D1%88/@42.5690427,21.4375878,9686m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x135494aaf414a9fb:0x8c018ae63f46 7693!8m2!3d42.5709078!4d21.4738083

The 'Veliki seoba Srbi' indeed occured after y. 1689 (Kosovo polje, Lap\Lab, Drenica, Prizren(Korush, Sveti Petar, south of Suhareka, Istok, part of Hvosno etc etc) in a minor scale of course!! But do not forget Albanians and Vlachs were in Kosovo also!!

Sorcelow
03-14-2021, 10:13 PM
Mixed Serbian-Muslim(?!) Villages(Abdullah -> newly converted, a local inhabitant converted):

- Village Vlashnje

https://i.imgur.com/rSbuYjq.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Vlashnj%C3%AB/@42.1970887,20.5893966,19486m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x1353bf7fbee416eb:0x7da483f0c008 6918!8m2!3d42.200992!4d20.6609917

- Village Tupec

https://i.imgur.com/cC8wub7.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tupec/@42.2447295,20.6314658,9736m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x1353be6102b29f7d:0x8db0b4129c6e aa76!8m2!3d42.2547601!4d20.6690598


- Village Novak

https://i.imgur.com/sC5ohDZ.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Novak/@42.2822817,20.7162666,9730m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x135397a7d22c7a5d:0x67c8339c28c9 333c!8m2!3d42.3015316!4d20.7562208

- Village Zahum (Zym ??)

https://i.imgur.com/evdzPRW.jpg

etc etc

As you ca see the ethnic composition back than was quite different from the map presented from the author!!
There is another Defter, that of eastern Kosovo, an area around Novo brdo-Gnjilan\Gjilan-Preshevo, of the year 1498, "REGJISTRIMI I VENDBANIMEVE DHE I POPULLESISE SE KAZASE SE NOVOBERDES SIPAS DEFTERIT TE FUNDSHEKULLIT XV" another example of the Serbian-Albanian symbiose, Serbians with Y-Dna: R-BY611>Z2705, J-Y21045 & J-PH1751>Z38299, E-Z17107 etc can detect their roots in this people !!

- The Orthodox Albanian Village Makreshi\Доњи Макреш, eastern Kosovo, year 1498

https://i.imgur.com/ACKLp3V.jpg


https://www.google.com/maps/place/%D0%94%D0%BE%D1%9A%D0%B8+%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%80% D0%B5%D1%88/@42.5690427,21.4375878,9686m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1353950a12f4301f:0x da0e2e9b8d3d5850!2sPrizren!3b1!8m2!3d42.2171438!4d 20.7436495!3m4!1s0x135494aaf414a9fb:0x8c018ae63f46 7693!8m2!3d42.5709078!4d21.4738083

The 'Veliki seoba Srbi' indeed occured after y. 1689 (Kosovo polje, Lap\Lab, Drenica, Prizren(Korush, Sveti Petar, south of Suhareka, Istok, part of Hvosno etc etc) in a minor scale of course!! But do not forget Albanians and Vlachs were in Kosovo also!!

Exercitus, do you have any publications on the defters of North Macedonia? I remember stumbling upon it once on this forum a few months ago, but seem to have misplaced the link.

Rrenjet.
03-14-2021, 10:26 PM
What are the results from Gora so far?

I'm from Golloborde. I am part of your project.

Do you have an opinion on the results from Golloborde? I would be really interested in hearing your opinion.

Well, you are aware, ethnicity can be a fluid property of one's identity, so it is not easy to say who is Goran and who is not. But I can say that from the villages that are commonly counted as part of Gora, we have that I2-L596 result that was discussed briefly here a few pages earlier. He distantly matches a person of Morine clan from SW Kosove.

Korabi
03-14-2021, 10:32 PM
You know, what is interesting is that fis in the Diber area is used for maternal relations as well as paternal. The way I've always heard it is in relation to anyone you have blood relations with. I think this is the core difference between North Albania and Central/South Albania. As in, North Albania doesn't recognize maternal descent, while Central and Southern Albania does. There are some interesting dissimilarities that arise from this. For example, The husband of your daughter can become part of your fis and even adopt the surname, as seems to have occurred frequently. While in North Albania(At least officially), this should not have been possible. There are some other divergences that arise from this. For example, some recent studies have categorized North Albania and Montenegro as being more "inbred" than usual, despite having some of the most elaborate kinship vocabulary. I think it would be interesting if different members posted their Gedmatch repeating pairs to test this. Although I imagine those having high values would not post their results.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of this. Does it also apply to Northern Diber and Dibra Madhe as well or mostly just Golloborde/Bulqize ?districts

trdbr1234
03-14-2021, 10:45 PM
Interesting. I wasn't aware of this. Does it also apply to Northern Diber and Dibra Madhe as well or mostly just Golloborde/Bulqize ?districts

There aren't any cultural differences in the Diber region. Diber region functions as a large tribe without much cultural diversity. What is true in one is usually true in the other regions. My evidence however is somewhat anecdotal. Fis could take on multiple meanings in different circumstances, as is often the case in Albania.

The recognition of maternal descent is real however. The "adoption" of male grooms is also common in Laberia, Korca, and Central Albania. This process occurs even today.

Exercitus
03-14-2021, 10:47 PM
Sorcelow, actually except the Defter of Demir Hisar (y.1467), Veles\Köprülü (y.1422), few villages of south Kicevo\Kercova and the city himself (y. 1467), the interesting but limited material by Iljaz Rexha (Polog, Prilep, north Kicevo etc) at "POPULLSIA ALBANE GJATĖ MESJETĖS NĖ HAPSIRĖN E MAQEDONISĖ SĖ SOTME (SIPAS BURIMEVE SLLAVE DHE OSMANE )" , the villages of lower Dibra y. 1467, procured by Kelmendasi from the book "Historia e Dibrės : qė nga lashtėsia deri nė mars 1939" by the Albanian Historian Kristo Frasheri, and few materials around (Manastir, Struga etc), i havent others !!
The "Holy Grail" of the Defters concerning N. Macedonia of the XV and XVI centuries are this books:

- Opširen popisen defter No 4 1467-1468 godina
(Arhiv na Makedonija. Turski dokumenti za istorijata na makedonskiot narod.)

- Turski dokumenti za istorijata na makedonskiot narod: kn. 1-2. Opširen popisen defter na ohridskiot sandžak od 1583 godina

Accessible only by going personally in Skopje National Archive, and requesting them (only in Bulgarian\N.Macedonian language obviously)!! I wish one day they will be accessible for all!!
If you need information about the materials that i have, tell me i am available!?

trdbr1234
03-14-2021, 10:57 PM
Well, you are aware, ethnicity can be a fluid property of one's identity, so it is not easy to say who is Goran and who is not. But I can say that from the villages that are commonly counted as part of Gora, we have that I2-L596 result that was discussed briefly here a few pages earlier. He distantly matches a person of Morine clan from SW Kosove.

I would be really curious in a study on Gorans.


Honestly though, I am exceptionally curious on the Mijaci. Is there any way we can test people from the Reka region in Macedonia? With a specific target of Reka Eper and Mijaci?

J Man
03-14-2021, 11:09 PM
The Reci of Shkodra is very well tested. Some interesting haplos for the north of the country there but no slavic lines.
Also the Reci area of Diber/west part of Dibra has very good diversity of haplos with some of them also very old but not the most typical of the albanian north. Again no slavic lines in that area.
At least at the Rrenjet Database.

The west part of Dibra is definitively worth testing more and some are needed with high resolution as it has also some very interesting haplos that don't fit in the standart R1b/J2b/E-V13 trio.

Indeed it would be interesting to see some more Reēi from the Shkoder area tested. The two J2a samples from there are Muslim and the R1b sample is Catholic I think. I can't remember which religion the J2b1 sample is.

Korabi
03-14-2021, 11:26 PM
I would be really curious in a study on Gorans.


Honestly though, I am exceptionally curious on the Mijaci. Is there any way we can test people from the Reka region in Macedonia? With a specific target of Reka Eper and Mijaci?

I'm sponsoring some for Upper Reka. Would be open to testing Mijaks too if any are found. There was a small study in Galicnik Mijaks which apparently were almost 60% R-M458 with the second dominant group being R-U106 dominant at some 26%. Not sure how other Mijak villages will compare though. Could be local founder effects in the case of Galicnik.

trdbr1234
03-14-2021, 11:32 PM
I'm sponsoring some for Upper Reka. Would be open to testing Mijaks too if any are found. There was a small study in Galicnik Mijaks which apparently were almost 60% R-M458 with the second dominant group being R-U106 dominant at some 26%. Not sure how other Mijak villages will compare though. Could be local founder effects in the case of Galicnik. If you're contributing to Reka Eper, I'd contribute for Mijaci.

Didn't they belong to some relic M198? Or is R-M458 now what they are defined as? Getting some more specific branches would be nice, as the R1a's in the region so far have not been standard.

Korabi
03-14-2021, 11:42 PM
If you're contributing to Reka Eper, I'd contribute for Mijaci.

Didn't they belong to some relic M198? Or is R-M458 now what they are defined as? Getting some more specific branches would be nice, as the R1a's in the region so far have not been standard.

The relic R-M198 was from Tresonce if I remember correct. R-M458 seems to have had a local founder effects in Galicnik Mijaks. Interestingly, R-Y133361 is found in Albanians in all the areas surrounding/neighboring Galicnik. Wont be surprised if this haplotype will pop up in Mijaks of Galicnik upon further testing.

How many kits you considering?

I can cover the upper Reka. Assuming you want to spread the Mijak samples out, I may spot a few for Galicnik specifically. Probably the most densely populated Mijak region today anyway.

trdbr1234
03-14-2021, 11:57 PM
The relic R-M198 was from Tresonce if I remember correct. R-M458 seems to have had a local founder effects in Galicnik Mijaks. Interesringly, R-Y133361 is found in Albanians in all the areas surrounding/neighboring Galicnik. Wont be surprised if this haplotype will pop up in Mijaks of Galicnik upon further testing.

How many kits you considering?

I can cover the upper Reka. Assuming you want to spread the Mijak samples out, I may spot a few for Galicnik specifically. Probably the most densely populated Mijak region today anyway.
Some really interesting R1a's so far.

10 kits? Yeah I would want from different villages and unrelated individuals. I really expect high similarity with Reka Eper. These two regions are practically indistinguishable from a cultural point of view.

Also interesting, Sadikaj stated that the migration from interior Albania that hypothetically took place in Golloborde, also affected Mijaci. Although I don't think there was ever such a migration as Y-DNA seems to show.

Rrenjet.
03-14-2021, 11:58 PM
I would be really curious in a study on Gorans.


Honestly though, I am exceptionally curious on the Mijaci. Is there any way we can test people from the Reka region in Macedonia? With a specific target of Reka Eper and Mijaci?

Reka e Eperme presents the same problems as most remote regions: travelling difficulties and the economic struggles of the inhabitants which discourage them from testing. But with some support, Albanian regions are doable. One of us will have to travel there, but it's worth it.

For non-Albanians, it is more difficult. We could try asking Mijaks but I cannot guarantee they would participate.

Korabi
03-15-2021, 12:01 AM
Some really interesting R1a's so far.

10 kits? Yeah I would want from different villages and unrelated individuals. I really expect high similarity with Reka Eper. These two regions are practically indistinguishable from a cultural point of view.

Nice. I should be able to do about that myself. Like Rrenjet mentioned though, it may be difficult getting them to test. Perhaps some Macedonian members such as Aspar can chime in if he has any contacts among Mijaks?

trdbr1234
03-15-2021, 12:04 AM
Reka e Eperme presents the same problems as most remote regions: travelling difficulties and the economic struggles of the inhabitants which discourage them from testing. But with some support, Albanian regions are doable. One of us will have to travel there, but it's worth it.

For non-Albanians, it is more difficult. We could try asking Mijaks but I cannot guarantee they would participate.

I understand. Tackling these difficulties is what has made the Rrenjet project so great in my opinion. Rrenjet has done a great job so far. I do think it is worth it. Maybe Aspar or some other Macedonian members can help.

Rrenjet.
03-15-2021, 12:11 AM
Thank you for the kind words and support.

Of course any help from Aspar or anyone in the Macedonian project is welcome. The benefit from new results is mutual. Once you finalize a plan with Korabi, we can continue with more concrete plans through email so we also do not take over the thread.

Kelmendasi
03-15-2021, 12:35 AM
In regards to the social system and organization of kinship that was practiced in southern Albania, this is what is stated in the essay Blood and Seed, Trunk and Hearth: Kinship and Common Origin in Southern Albania (https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00400413/document), which mainly uses the example of the Devolli region in south-eastern Albania:

"The word fis is used all over Albania. In Southern Albania it is commonly heard with the meaning of "kin" and it also designates the three generations patrilineage which is, together with the house (shpi), one of the effective social units based on kinship."

"The two basic units of social organisation are the house (shpi, shtėpi) and the patrilineage (fis). The fis can be defined as a patrilineal descent group and an exogamous unit whose members used to own some property in common. Patrilineal descent is expressed by the concept of "blood" (gjak): all members of the fis share the same blood and, through blood, some physical and moral characteristics: Marriage "within blood" (brenda gjakut) is forbidden. It is also forbidden with the mother's fis: a lineage should not "take" (marr) from, or "give" (jap) to another lineage whom it has already given or from whom it has already taken. There is however... a tendency not to marry too far away: two lineages are not allowed to intermarry, but it often happens that three lineages favour, for one or two generations, exchange between them. There is also a tendency to marry inside the village, or inside a small group of villages close to each other and, of course, inside religious community."

Residence is virilocal. Wives come to live in their husband's house, which is either the husband's paternal house, either a new one provided by the husband's father... Property is inherited only by sons. Daughters receive a dowry (pajė, prikė) at their marriage. It consists of pieces of furniture and garments, but never of land or livestock... Each son receives an equal share of property at the time when separation (ndarje) of the house, or from the house, takes place, either upon marriage of the youngest son or upon the death of the father... According to several informants, cohabitation of two or more brothers in the paternal house long after their marriage and even after the death of the father used to be more frequent in the past, before the Second World War. The house was then divided into two or more equal parts, each with its own entrance on the street, and its own courtyard and kitchen. Each brother, together with is wife and children, formed a separate social unit, but the former unity of the paternal house was remembered through its labelling as a "brotherhood" (vėllazėri)."

"The youngest son generally remains with his parents and inherits the paternal house (trung). His duty is to take care (yzmet) of his parents in their old days and is thus called the "pillar of the house" (shtylla e shtėpisė). The father has the obligation to provide his older sons with a new house or at least with a piece of land (truall) where to build a new house... As a result, neighbouring houses are generally inhabited by families closely connected by patrilineal ties. They form a mėhallė, a group of houses between which solidarity and daily cooperation are expected."

At the same time, villages were not allowed to expand on their own territory: the village's inhabited space was separated from its arable land by the "yellow line" (vija e verdhė), outside of which it was forbidden to build new houses. Moreover, restrictions put on the mobility of people from village to village or from village to town increased the demographic pressure on village land."

In regards to similarity with the northern Albanian concepts:

"Devolli lineage is clearly a three generations lineage comparable to the Greek genis described by Maria Couroucli in Corfou (Couroucli 1985). Although long term presence in the region can be claimed as a source of prestige, there seems to be no interest in remembering kinship ties beyond three or four generations. Ancestors' collaterals are rapidly forgotten as being "separated" (i ndarė) from the lineage and forming new lineages... Actually, there seems to be interest in forgetting distant relationship in order not to prevent marriages between lineages issued from the same stem. This is in sharp contrast to the long genealogical lists collected by ethnographers of Northern Albania (Durham 1909:69, Zojzi (1977:195). There also seems to be no trace of ancestors' cult in Devoll."

"Lineage organisation in Northern Albanian and Kosovo has often been described as a segmentary system in which a fis is divided into several "feet" or "legs" (kėmbė), each starting with one of the founder's sons. Each kėmbė is divided into several "brotherhoods" (vllazni) who in turn are made of several "bellies" (bark), divided into "houses" (shpi)... Such a description does not fit the situation observed in Devoll: the fis is made of a certain number of houses, but no intermediary units are recognised between those two levels. The word degė ("branch") is used to refer to a segment of lineage, but has not reality in the way the lineage actually functions. In fact, when such a branch does acquire a reality in the eyes of lineage members, it splits and forms a new lineage: the branch takes a new family name, generally formed of on a close ancestor's first name, and is not considered as a segment of the original lineage anymore. After one or two generations, members of the two lineages can even intermarry."

"(4) Finally, although the Devoll lineage is a patrilineal descent group, as its northern counterpart, it does not exclude recognition of kinship, in terms of blood, through women. The distinction between "blood" and "milk" is not known in Devoll: blood (gjak) alone is the principle of kinship, and it runs through male as through female lines."

In Devoll, as a result of lineage fission, internal migration and inheritance system, inhabitants of a given territory (a village for instance), as well as their lineages, are classified according to their relation to this territory. First comes the "big lineages" (fiset e mėdhenj) or "old lineages" (fiset e vjetėr); they claim at the same time the longest presence in the village and the role of the founders of a neighbourhood upon their arrival from another area in Southern Albania or Northern Greece. The vendali ("local", from vend, "country, place") are the ones who have no memory of an external origin; they generally from the majority of the population. Finally are the most recently arrived (i ardhur), whose arrival one or two generations ago is still remembered (de Rapper 2000:458-459). This categorisation of individuals and lineages on the basis of territory reminds of the one reported from Northern Albania. The population of a given territory is said to consist of three different stocks: "dominants" (pushtues) who arrived from another places and conquered the land; "natives" (anas) who were subdued by the conquering newcomers; and finally the most recently arrived (tė ardhur, ardhacakė) who are maintained in their position of inferiority (Kostallari 1965:38, Zojzi 1977:188). Despite the difference of vocabulary and context, the conceptualisation of three distinct categories of people in a given territory appears to be the same in both northern and south-eastern ends of Albania."

Kelmendasi
03-15-2021, 12:58 AM
Also from Household and Family in the Balkans: Two Decades of Historical Family Research at University of Graz (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zjmzQnrfFmQC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false):

"Two types of social structures evolved in this area of the Balkans. In Northern Albania and Montenegro, tribal organization emerged... The tribes developed out of pastoral working units, the katuns. These katuns were obviously based on blood relationship and were moveable units, migrating from summer to winter pastures. In both the cases the Montenegrin and the Albanian, we can observe parallel developments: before the Ottoman occupation, the Balkan feudal state was well organized enough to push the mentioned katuns to leave the mountains and settle down in the valleys. Written documents show us these settlement processes. But the Ottoman conquest turned these processes into the opposite direction. The katuns left the settlements again and pulled themselves back into the secure mountains. Parallel to this throw-back, processes of territorialisation began. Territorialisation in this context means that public summer and winter pastures were turned into possessions of the katuns respectively the out of the katuns slowly emerging tribes (Kaser 1992a: 144-156).

"By contrast, in the south (as was the case in Southern Albania and Greece) there developed an alternative organization characterized by the leading role of the lineage segment in political, religious, and economic activities. In Southern Albania too, it means that on the territories settled by Albanian south of the river Shkumbin, there existed still in the 19th and 20th century patrilineally organized descendent groups. Their terminology fixation is not easy because they were tribes and at the same time no tribes... Here the tribe was called fara or gjeri (common thing). The Albanian ethnographers point out that a fara community is much smaller than a fis (tribe) community in Northern and Central Albania. But it is given that there is an historical link and a common origin of fara and fis, but the further development was different. The main difference between fara and fis is that the relationship between the fara members was very loose. The members knew that there existed a common ancestor, but this fact played no relevant role and the names of the ancestors were unknown. This fits into the fact that the fara was no exogamous group. Exogamy was limited to a subgroup called fis. It is confusing, but the North Albanian and South Albanian fis have not very much in common. The South Albanian fis consisted of three or four related generations, that means they had a common ancestor three or four generations ago.

"The lineage groups did not live on a closed region like the Montenegrin and Albanian tribal societies; they built islands, located on mountains, amidst a farming environment. One centre of the lineage organization was the one from the central mountains of Southern Albania shaped Labėria (with Kurvelesh, Bregdet, Rėze e Tepelenės, Zagori and Lunxherie mountains), a second the so called Himara (southwest Albania), and a third the Suli region, situated far south amidst Greek population between Ioannina and Arta (Ulqini 1985: 197-222). In addition, the more isolated these pastoral societies were, the greater their tendency to construct segmentary lineage systems. The Albanian mountain dwellers in Southern Albania and Northern Greece, through intensive segmentation, lost their tribal organization during the time of the Ottoman occupation (15th century). These lineage segments then became the decisive political, economic, religious and predatory units."

Bruzmi
03-15-2021, 01:36 AM
- The Orthodox Albanian Village Makreshi\Доњи Макреш, eastern Kosovo, year 1498


Something interesting about it is that "Makresh" is the Balkan Romance and Aromanian "măcrķş" equivalent of the local toponym Llapushnik (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapu%C5%A1nik), Llapushė (from lapė/lėpjetė) etc, a reference to the plant rumex acetosa. The term măcrķş which displays the typical phonological evolution of Latin "macris" via Proto-Albanian as expressed later in Proto-Romanian. Begzad Baliu, Onomastikė dhe Identitet (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikibooks/sq/9/9d/Begzad_Baliu._Onomastike_dhe_identitet_paust.pdf): Duhet parė kėtu madje edhe njė zhvillim paralel tė emrave tė toponimeve, si: Makresh (Gjilan) nga rom. makris “uthull” dhe Llapushnik (Skėnderaj) nga lapushė, “lėpjetė” : uthull. It's found in North Macedonia as Makresh (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Makresh,+North+Macedonia/@42.1980061,21.8605033,12z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x1355ac99df4878eb:0xda7851c98cae2 290!8m2!3d42.176701!4d21.8844326) and Aromanian shepherds transferred the same toponym in northwestern Bulgaria. Gjurmime Albanologjike, 1982 (https://books.google.com/books?id=pKpiAAAAMAAJ): Eshtė thėnė , nė tė vėrvetė , kaherė p.sh. se emri i vendit Makreš (https://www.google.com/maps/place/3850+Makresh,+Bulgaria/@43.7681493,22.5183541,11z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x47548623a5f11283:0xc01f987934300 d22!8m2!3d43.7681663!4d22.6631354)nė territorin bullgar , i vendosur pikėrisht nė atė trevė kah kishte katunde blegtorale vllahe , zbėrthehet me rum . macriş „ lėpjetė ; uthull ” ( bot . Rumex acetosa )

Exercitus
03-15-2021, 10:53 PM
Well Maleschreiber than i suggest you this book from (i ndjeri dhe i nderuari) Pr. SKĖNDER GASHI "KĖRKIME ONOMASTIKE-HISTORIKE PĖR MINORITETE TĖ SHUARA E AKTUALE TĖ KOSOVĖS" https://www.ashak.org/?cid=1,45,533
There are plenty of information concerning the (non Slavic) toponymy and anthroponymy of Kosovo!!
Also i suggest you this other book by MIHAILO DINIĆ " IZ DUBROVAČKOG ARHIVA - KNJIGA I" - https://vdocuments.site/mihailo-dinic-iz-dubrovackog-arhiva-knjiga-i.html

The list of debitors of the Novo brdo - Gnjilan - Preshevo areas, year 1431 !!!
Can you distiguish the Albanian onomastic ?!

Biba pastorach de Nouach Sarzinou (f. 63); Bauaz (sic!) Bibal (f. 82.);
Dmitar Buxatouich de Groxeta (f. 51); Nichola Dodizich de Hainouzi (f.39); Ducha e suo fiol Iuan de Grubxinzi in Toponiza (f.78); Gergas Dapsich becharo (f. 67); Gergas conpare de Raichouo cholo (f. 79); Gergi Daizetich de Plauize (f. 69); Gergas frar de Ni. Za(cha)taj (f. 51); Gergas Zataj (f. 39); Gez fante de Dmitar Soimirouich (f. 66); Gin Zemerich. .. de Varuariza (f. 82); Petar bratanaz de Gin Nafora (f. 47); Nichola Gin Nafora (f. 68); Petar bratanaz de Gin in Trepza (f. 83); Ginas Zessarouich (f. 44); Andria Ginouich de Boxotinzi (f. 45); Lecha Ginouich de Podgradie (f. 62); Andria Gon foxer de Podgradie (f. 62); Gurag de Gon Arbanexo chruzmar e foxer e Andria suo frar sortor (f.. 62); Vlatcho Biogradaz piegi per Gon foxer con stava con Progon (f. 56); Gon Belaz foxer (f. 50); Gon Choxiza foxer (f. 44); Gon Gerdatich (f. 68); Gon Gradiuanta (f. 49); Gon Mali foxer in posta de Gon (f. 38); Gon Miralin (f. 67); Gon Progonou foxer (f. 46); Gon Vlchata foxer (f. 67); Gon Vogoli piego per Gon Mali foxer in posta de Gon (f. 52); Gon Vranaj (f. 50); Haidin foxer [...] per Gon (f. 64); Vlaia de Gon Godin (f. 44); Voin de Gon (f. 42); Andria Gonouich de Boxotinzi (f. 75); Andria Gonouich Gaize de (sic !) (f. 51); Andria Gonouich de Gurchouzi (f. 85); Boxidar dito Vlaich de Gon (f. 66); Iuan Gonouich foxer (f. 47); Mioman Gonouich Benchouschi foxer (f. 39); Nichola Gonouich de Grachoieuzi (f. 55); Petar Gonouich Pristeuaz (f. 68); Radoslau Gonouich hutman de Podgradie (f. 55); Pauao Gonzeuich de Podgradie foxer (f. 52); Milos Mexouich in posta de Gon (nga Chmetouzi in Moraua) (f. 52); Lecha Goianouich (f. 52); Lex Buxatouich e fradeli de Groxeta (f. 51); Lex conpare de Gurchozi (f. 81); Marcho Maluxat (f. 69); Mechxa plachaonizar in Podgradie (f. 64); Milos Mexouich de Leuatriza in posta de Gon (f. 52); Radie e Radincho fradeli de Miechxa [...] (f. 75); Michxa Lechich orese (f. 39); Petcho Progonouich de Boxotinzi (f. 45); Dmitar Spani orexe (f. 71); Tanus Bogdanouich de Gurachouzi foxer (f. 51; 81); Thanus... fante de Hanzo (f. 42); Vochmio Vladich de Mohouaz in Topaniza (f. 74); Vochxa de Sirze (f. 69); Gurag Zoto de Sirze (f. 81) dhe Radossau Zoto in Sirze (f. 78). etc etc
Kosovo was a nice place in the XV century, quite multiethnic, rich and 'cosmopolitan' , Albanians and Vlachs were part of that reality!!

Bruzmi
03-15-2021, 11:57 PM
Kosovo was a nice place in the XV century, quite multiethnic, rich and 'cosmopolitan' , Albanians and Vlachs were part of that reality!!

I think that Novo Brdo was multiethnic because it was a trading hub and like every other trade settlement in medieval times it was multiethnic.

Maybe my previous comment about Makresh was misunderstood. I don't consider Makresh to be a Vlach toponym. My argument is that Makresh is the "Latinized" form of Llapushė and its development suggests that it may have been present in Kosovo before the Middle Ages, when a Romanized local population moved from eastern Kosovo eastwards and southwards. The fact that a part of that population later moved again westwards and spread specifically Vlach toponyms is another process.

J Man
03-16-2021, 02:48 PM
Does anyone here know much about the Berisha family of the village of Muhurr in Dibra? Are they a fis or vllazni in Muhurr?

Kelmendasi
03-16-2021, 04:46 PM
Does anyone here know much about the Berisha family of the village of Muhurr in Dibra? Are they a fis or vllazni in Muhurr?
According to their oral traditions they are the descendants of Nikollė Berisha who, alongside his brother Dhimitėr, was a commander under Skanderbeg during the Ottoman-Albanian wars and participated in some of the major battles such as the Battle of Vaikal in 1465, where he was captured and later executed.

Their traditions maintain that the father of Nikollė and Dhimitėr was Gjergj Berishė Mazreka. The family name Mazreka itself is interesting as it could suggest a more distant relationship to the Kastrioti. However, the tradition does also mention that Gjergj Berishė Mazreka was married to the sister of Gjon Kastrioti, father of Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg, named Mara. Intermarriage between families from the, potentially, same fis or farefisnķ was discouraged so it is hard to say if they were indeed from the same Mazreku stock or if the name was derived from a toponym. It is also possible that they adopted the name to show their relation to the Kastrioti through marriage.

gjenetiks
03-16-2021, 05:43 PM
According to their oral traditions they are the descendants of Nikollė Berisha who, alongside his brother Dhimitėr, was a commander under Skanderbeg during the Ottoman-Albanian wars and participated in some of the major battles such as the Battle of Vaikal in 1465, where he was captured and later executed.

Their traditions maintain that the father of Nikollė and Dhimitėr was Gjergj Berishė Mazreka. The family name Mazreka itself is interesting as it could suggest a more distant relationship to the Kastrioti. However, the tradition does also mention that Gjergj Berishė Mazreka was married to the sister of Gjon Kastrioti, father of Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg, named Mara. Intermarriage between families from the, potentially, same fis or farefisnķ was discouraged so it is hard to say if they were indeed from the same Mazreku stock or if the name was derived from a toponym. It is also possible that they adopted the name to show their relation to the Kastrioti through marriage.

Isn't the Mazreku origin of Skanderbeg refuted by a number of Albanian historians like Plasari, K. Frasheri, etc..?

Kelmendasi
03-16-2021, 06:11 PM
Isn't the Mazreku origin of Skanderbeg refuted by a number of Albanian historians like Plasari, K. Frasheri, etc..?
I have heard that they have opposed it, but I personally have not seen much of their arguments against it. As far as I am aware, it is mainly argued against due to geography since Frashėri, for example, considered the family to have originated in Dibra. And I believe some hold it to be a fabrication.

However, what is clear is that sources from at least the early-seventeenth century (that I am aware of) mention a connection between the Mazreku and Kastrioti, with it being recorded in the Genealogia diversarum principum familiarum mundi (ca. 1621) and even a little later with Pjetėr Bogdani and others. Now if these are fabrications, then that would be another thing, however evidence must be presented.

Korabi
03-16-2021, 07:58 PM
I have heard that they have opposed it, but I personally have not seen much of their arguments against it. As far as I am aware, it is mainly argued against due to geography since Frashėri, for example, considered the family to have originated in Dibra. And I believe some hold it to be a fabrication.

However, what is clear is that sources from at least the early-seventeenth century (that I am aware of) mention a connection between the Mazreku and Kastrioti, with it being recorded in the Genealogia diversarum principum familiarum mundi (ca. 1621) and even a little later with Pjetėr Bogdani and others. Now if these are fabrications, then that would be another thing, however evidence must be presented.

Highly doubt he's related to the Mazrek of Shkodra. Only ever heard people from Malesi claim this lol. Just another attempt by some to disassociate him from Dibra. Wasn't uncommon in the past for people to deny his origin from Dibra and claim he was from Kruja even.

Though, I haven't read much on some of these theories. Mazreku as a surname is kind of widespread. Doubt they're all the same. I think he could ar least be E-V13 of some sort based on some results from the villages near where he's from in Northern Dibra.

Kelmendasi
03-16-2021, 08:56 PM
Highly doubt he's related to the Mazrek of Shkodra. Only ever heard people from Malesi claim this lol. Just another attempt by some to disassociate him from Dibra. Wasn't uncommon in the past for people to deny his origin from Dibra and claim he was from Kruja even.

Though, I haven't read much on some of these theories. Mazreku as a surname is kind of widespread. Doubt they're all the same. I think he could ar least be E-V13 of some sort based on some results from the villages near where he's from in Northern Dibra.
From what we can gather from the medieval documents and registers, there were a number of tribes or fise which were called Mazreku. Of course, the most notable one is that of north-western Albania near Shkodra which also spread further outside of its original territory. Now if these Mazreku were connected to the Kastrioti, is very hard to say for certain. As mentioned above, sources from the seventeenth century do connect the Kastrioti to the Mazreku by adding the name to the family genealogies. However, some have suggested that they are fabrications. Oral traditions of the Mazreku of Shkodra and also Hasi (whom are considered a branch of the former) do mention a connection to the Kastrioti, but oral tradition is often quite dubious to say the least.

As for the geographical origin of the Kastrioti family, this too is highly contested but many scholars and historians tend to agree that the family itself formed within the borders of Mati (typically associated with Aemathia) and Dibra (especially the northern half). The fifteenth and sixteenth century humanists and historians Marin Barleti and Dhimitėr Frangu for example support an origin from Mati, and there are a number of toponyms and documents that also favour northern Dibra. However, there are also other theories which place their origin in the ethnographic region of Hasi which straddles north-eastern Albania and south-western Kosovo. This theory ties in with their suspected relation to the wider Mazreku fis.

Mazrek (also Mazarak, Mazarek, etc,.) was indeed a very common Albanian anthroponym during the medieval period, and it is true that for some it became a patronym. There are also toponyms derived from this personal name which further adds to the debate and complexity of the topic.

In my opinion not all of these theories were developed in order to disassociate the Kastrioti from Dibra, quite a few are genuine academic theories. However, of course there are some historians and writers that have tried to find any little bit of superficial evidence to tie Skanderbeg to their specific region due to personal biases and wanting to tie the national hero to their home region.

Korabi
03-16-2021, 09:42 PM
From what we can gather from the medieval documents and registers, there were a number of tribes or fise which were called Mazreku. Of course, the most notable one is that of north-western Albania near Shkodra which also spread further outside of its original territory. Now if these Mazreku were connected to the Kastrioti, is very hard to say for certain. As mentioned above, sources from the seventeenth century do connect the Kastrioti to the Mazreku by adding the name to the family genealogies. However, some have suggested that they are fabrications. Oral traditions of the Mazreku of Shkodra and also Hasi (whom are considered a branch of the former) do mention a connection to the Kastrioti, but oral tradition is often quite dubious to say the least.

As for the geographical origin of the Kastrioti family, this too is highly contested but many scholars and historians tend to agree that the family itself formed within the borders of Mati (typically associated with Aemathia) and Dibra (especially the northern half). The fifteenth and sixteenth century humanists and historians Marin Barleti and Dhimitėr Frangu for example support an origin from Mati, and there are a number of toponyms and documents that also favour northern Dibra. However, there are also other theories which place their origin in the ethnographic region of Hasi which straddles north-eastern Albania and south-western Kosovo. This theory ties in with their suspected relation to the wider Mazreku fis.

Mazrek (also Mazarak, Mazarek, etc,.) was indeed a very common Albanian anthroponym during the medieval period, and it is true that for some it became a patronym. There are also toponyms derived from this personal name which further adds to the debate and complexity of the topic.

In my opinion not all of these theories were developed in order to disassociate the Kastrioti from Dibra, quite a few are genuine academic theories. However, of course there are some historians and writers that have tried to find any little bit of superficial evidence to tie Skanderbeg to their specific region due to personal biases and wanting to tie the national hero to their home region.

Dibra is one of the few/only places you find Skanderbeg/Gjergj Kastrioti statue standing off his horse. At least so I'm told. I haven't had the pleasure of visiting yet. Pandemic slowed plans down. Never heard the Mati theory but I think that's more reasonable than Shkodra or Kosova as an alternate origin to Dibra. Not saying these theories were developed for that purpose. Only that some take them so seriously because they're from there. He was most certainly from Dibra. So his family/clan if not may have moved from Mati into Dibra sometime earlier. That's certainly more plausible I think.

As unlikely as the prospect may be, I wonder how these haplo-supremacists would react if his line wasn't one of the big 3. Probanly would have a brain aneurysm. My honest opinion is that he will be E-V13 though. It just makes the most sense.

Bruzmi
03-16-2021, 11:49 PM
I have heard that they have opposed it, but I personally have not seen much of their arguments against it. As far as I am aware, it is mainly argued against due to geography since Frashėri, for example, considered the family to have originated in Dibra. And I believe some hold it to be a fabrication.

However, what is clear is that sources from at least the early-seventeenth century (that I am aware of) mention a connection between the Mazreku and Kastrioti, with it being recorded in the Genealogia diversarum principum familiarum mundi (ca. 1621) and even a little later with Pjetėr Bogdani and others. Now if these are fabrications, then that would be another thing, however evidence must be presented.

Mazreku as a name linked to the Kastrioti is attested since 1603. Andrea Flavio Angelo who wrote about it knew personally Skanderbeg's descendants. The name itself is not disputed nowadays, but there is a discussion about which Mazreku it refers to.

Johane Derite
03-16-2021, 11:57 PM
I have heard that they have opposed it, but I personally have not seen much of their arguments against it. As far as I am aware, it is mainly argued against due to geography since Frashėri, for example, considered the family to have originated in Dibra. And I believe some hold it to be a fabrication.

However, what is clear is that sources from at least the early-seventeenth century (that I am aware of) mention a connection between the Mazreku and Kastrioti, with it being recorded in the Genealogia diversarum principum familiarum mundi (ca. 1621) and even a little later with Pjetėr Bogdani and others. Now if these are fabrications, then that would be another thing, however evidence must be presented.

Matteo Mandala claims in his book on myths about Arberesh historiography that this thing about the Mazreku was a myth manufactured by some Arberesh family. I am currently waiting for the book to arrive, but have not yet personally read his evidence for this claim.

Kelmendasi
03-17-2021, 03:08 AM
Matteo Mandala claims in his book on myths about Arberesh historiography that this thing about the Mazreku was a myth manufactured by some Arberesh family. I am currently waiting for the book to arrive, but have not yet personally read his evidence for this claim.
It would certainly be very interesting to read his evidence for this. However, the credibility of his sources all depends on their dating in my opinion. If they come from the sixteenth century or earlier, then they can be taken as rather credible, but on the other hand if they are from after the early-seventeenth century then they can not. This is based on the fact that we know that the Mazreku family name has been connected to the Kastrioti since the latter period at least.

J Man
03-17-2021, 12:19 PM
Matteo Mandala claims in his book on myths about Arberesh historiography that this thing about the Mazreku was a myth manufactured by some Arberesh family. I am currently waiting for the book to arrive, but have not yet personally read his evidence for this claim.

Do you know if the Berisha family of Muhurr ever formed a fis (clan) or a vllazni within the Muhurri tribe?

Kelmendasi
03-18-2021, 02:46 AM
I asked some members of my family and there are quite a lot of Kukas alive today especially in Albania. There are even two Kuka families from the village my father comes from... I am inclined to test them. Not sure if its worth it though... as Kukas might be different bloodlines from each other, who knows.
I match an individual with this family name and what is interesting is that he belongs to Y-DNA haplogroup O-CTS2643 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/O-CTS2643/) (F46), which is very surprising for an Albanian. This cluster has an old TMRCA of ~8,900 ybp and CTS2643>F1326 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/O-F1326/) has been found in the ancient sample WD-WT1H16 which has been dated to around 2239-2033 BCE and belonged to the Late Neolithic Longshan culture of northern China. Today, it is predominantly spread in China but has also been located in samples from the nearby Korean Peninsula, Mongolia, Vietnam, Thailand, the Japanese archipelago, and even in some Kazakh samples from Kazakhstan and Russia.

This result could be erroneous since I am not aware of any cluster under O-CTS2643 being located in the Balkans or even the rest of Europe for that matter, however if it is not an error then that will be very interesting. There are some Kazakh clusters under CTS2643 which could suggest that it was picked up by some Turkic-speaking groups around the Altai Mountains, and we do know that there was an expansion westwards of various Turkic groups from the Eurasian steppes, and later from Anatolia. There are some cases of clusters in the Balkans that seem to have a Turkic origin (albeit of ultimate Sino-Tibetan extraction, similar to O-CTS2643 in Kazakhs), such as D-Y14736 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/D-Y14736/) which has been found in Sandžak.

Of course, there is a rather big chance that this family is not actually related to the medieval Albanian Kuka fis or family since the last name today is spread across Albania and other Albanian-speaking territories. However, it is still a very interesting and surprising result regardless.

Veneta
03-21-2021, 07:33 AM
Very informative posts! Any opinions on tribal identities of Albanians in Northern Macedonia? I always feel as if they are somewhat ''left behind''. Some prominent ones I have encountered seem to be:

Bagėrdani
Deralla
Ēeliku
Kalenxhiu
Gurbe
Skura
Ēupi
Bllaca
Pinjolli
Likruēi
Matranxha
Skondi
Besh
Grace
Ēajanė
Zguro

Kelmendasi
03-21-2021, 12:20 PM
Regarding the family name or fis of Berisha which was discussed prior, in a number of settlements recorded in the Ottoman register or defter of 1467 the family name Berishi or Berisha is attested:

Dragostunja or Dragostinja (possibly modern Dragostunjė, Librazhd): Bogdan Berishi, and Andrija Berishi

Kosharishtė (possibly modern Kosharisht, located near Qarrishtė): Nikolla Berishi

Liburazhda (modern Librazhd): Ilia Berishi, and Manec Berishi

Movirēe: Petėr Berisha

capsian
03-21-2021, 12:41 PM
Hello i want to ask about what branches of HaplogroupE-M81 are in Albania

Trojet
03-21-2021, 04:12 PM
As posted here (https://www.facebook.com/gjenetika), I wanted to share a recent Big Y-700 result from Albanian Bloodlines - Gjenetika Shqiptare.

The Big Y-700 test from a member of Lulgjuraj brotherhood (Grudė, Malėsi e Madhe) discovered that they belong to the same subbranch as the Montenegrin Piperi tribe. This connection is determined by R-FT49932, FT50078, which is located within R1b-Z2705. Their relationship should be ~1000 years to the most recent common ancestor. Based on Y-37, it can be concluded that at least a member of the Trieshi tribe (Benkaj) belongs within R-FT49932 as well. The Big Y-700 has been uploaded to YFull, so this phylogeny should be reflected there soon.

Legend has it that Piperi tribe has common origins with the Albanian tribes of Hoti and Trieshi. However, we know that the Hoti tribe has been confirmed under J2b-L283>>FT124757, while some Triesh under E1b-V13>>BY168279. These results suggest such traditions with Piperi may be derived from the "anas" inhabitants of this region.

https://i.imgur.com/gTZKBnB.png

Kelmendasi
03-22-2021, 11:18 PM
Matranxha
Ēajanė
Regarding the Matranxha and Ēajanė, I believe that their origins should be sought in the ethnographic regions of Luma which extends from north-eastern Albania into south-western Kosovo. The former likely trace their ancestry back to the settlement of Matranxh, whilst the latter probably from Ēajė or Grykė-Ēajė.

It seems that some consider the Matranxha that settled in North Macedonia to be a part of the Thaēi in regards to fis whilst others have ultimately connected the etymology of the name to the historical Matranga.

broder
03-24-2021, 03:56 PM
I match an individual with this family name and what is interesting is that he belongs to Y-DNA haplogroup O-CTS2643 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/O-CTS2643/) (F46), which is very surprising for an Albanian. This cluster has an old TMRCA of ~8,900 ybp and CTS2643>F1326 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/O-F1326/) has been found in the ancient sample WD-WT1H16 which has been dated to around 2239-2033 BCE and belonged to the Late Neolithic Longshan culture of northern China. Today, it is predominantly spread in China but has also been located in samples from the nearby Korean Peninsula, Mongolia, Vietnam, Thailand, the Japanese archipelago, and even in some Kazakh samples from Kazakhstan and Russia.

This result could be erroneous since I am not aware of any cluster under O-CTS2643 being located in the Balkans or even the rest of Europe for that matter, however if it is not an error then that will be very interesting. There are some Kazakh clusters under CTS2643 which could suggest that it was picked up by some Turkic-speaking groups around the Altai Mountains, and we do know that there was an expansion westwards of various Turkic groups from the Eurasian steppes, and later from Anatolia. There are some cases of clusters in the Balkans that seem to have a Turkic origin (albeit of ultimate Sino-Tibetan extraction, similar to O-CTS2643 in Kazakhs), such as D-Y14736 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/D-Y14736/) which has been found in Sandžak.

Of course, there is a rather big chance that this family is not actually related to the medieval Albanian Kuka fis or family since the last name today is spread across Albania and other Albanian-speaking territories. However, it is still a very interesting and surprising result regardless.

Kuka/Kukaj is a very common last name, especially in Kosove. Many unrelated families carry this last name that I personally know that belong to different tribes/fis. Like Bytyc (from Drenice), Kelmend (from Vuthaj) etc.

There is also a Kuka from Shengjergj, Albania that has tested as CTS9219 on 23andme.

Any clue where this guy may be from?

Bruzmi
03-25-2021, 09:05 PM
(copying from the Sandzak thread. It seems more appropriate to permanently place it here)

A quick review of E-A18833 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18833/) (formed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp) since more and more information is emerging about it.

E-A18833>Y172393>FT146201 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FT146201/) (formed 1500 ybp, TMRCA 850 ybp) :
1 Albanian who descends from the Bobi tribe of the Dukagjin highlands.

E-A18833>Y172393>A9739 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A9739/) (formed 1500 ybp, TMRCA 1350 ybp):
FT61051 (formed 1350 ybp, TMRCA 350 ybp): 2 Bulgarians - one identified as being from Radevtsi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radevtsi), central Bulgaria
Y190254* (formed 1350 ybp, TMRCA 1000 ybp): 1 Bulgarian from Novo Selo, Vidin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novo_Selo,_Vidin_Province) (northwesternmost Bulgaria)
Y190253 (formed 1000 ybp, TMRCA 500 ybp): 2 Serbs from Šetonje (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0etonje), central Serbia

The village of Radevtsi was settled by Vlachs (https://revista.acadsudest.ro/Arhiv%C4%83/Revista%202016/RESEE_2016.pdf) during the 16th century under Petru cel Tānăr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_the_Younger). The Serbs under E-Y190253 know that their families migrated from Negotin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negotin_Valley) to Šetonje during the 18th century. The distance between Novo Selo (Vidin) and Negotin is ~30km. The geographical homeland of E-A9739+ in the early Middle Ages was in the Vlach/Romanian-speaking area of present-day eastern Serbia and the border region between Serbia-Romania-Bulgaria.

Under A9739* there are 2 Bosnian Muslims/Bosniaks from Bosanska Krajina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosanska_Krajina) (western Bosnia) and central Bosnia (as reported on the Serbian Genealogical Project 'Poreklo' (https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=4773.0)).

E-A18833>Y172393>A18844 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18844/) (formed 1500 ybp, TMRCA 1300 ybp):
Many results in Montenegro, Serbia, some in Bosnia, one in Bulgaria. A18844 are linked to the medieval Albanian Mataruga tribe and its offshoots throughout the central Balkans during its migration from its initial homeland in Katunska Nahija (from the word "katund", pasture settlement) and Old Herzegovina, present-day Montenegro where A18844 is found among the later Montenegrin Bjelice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjelice), Riđani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ri%C4%91ani) and other tribal communities. The Mataruga in 1477 are also found in Pljevlja (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge,_Montenegro)and Prijepolje where they form their own nahija in present-day Sandzak. Their slavicization wasn't yet completed because one of their heads bore the name Vojko Arbanash (https://www.academia.edu/16044391/SHTRIRJA_DHE_SLLAVIZIMI_I_VLLAZ%C3%8BRIVE_ALBANE_M ESJETARE_BURMAZI_DHE_MATARUGA_N%C3%8B_AREALIN_E_TR EK%C3%8BND%C3%8BSHIT_T%C3%8B_KUFIJVE_T%C3%8B_BOSNJ %C3%8BS_E_HERCEGOVIN%C3%8BS_MALIT_T%C3%8B_ZI_DHE_S ERBIS%C3%8B_SIPAS_DY_DEFTER%C3%8BVE_T%C3%8B_SANXHA KUT_T%C3%8B_HERCEGOVIN%C3%8BS_T%C3%8B_SHEK_XV_) and some villages still had Albanian toponymy (Dobroja Bukur, Gurovik, Dardaca). (This information also partly answers the question about Albanian presence in Sandzak before 1689). Later, the Mataruga migrated to central Serbia (Mataruge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge_(Kraljevo)), Mataruška Banja (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataru%C5%A1ka_Banja)) and others parts of the region.

Summary: Prior to Slavic migrations, there were two clusters of E-A18833>Y172393 in the Balkans. One was Albanian, the other was Vlach. We don't know their precise location but in the Middle Ages the Albanian cluster was found in northernmost present-day Albania and present-day 'Old Montenegro', while the Vlach in eastern Serbia. A9739* reported results suggest an original location to the north of the Albanian cluster in Bosnia, but we can't draw any conclusions at the moment. The eastern Serbian/western Bulgarian cluster is the result of the acculturation of the Vlach group and the Montenegrin/western Serbian cluster is the result of the acculturation of a part of the Albanian group.

*All TMRCA based on v. 9.00 at Yfull

vasil
03-25-2021, 09:46 PM
(copying from the Sandzak thread. It seems more appropriate to permanently place it here)

A quick review of E-A18833 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18833/) (formed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp) since more and more information is emerging about it.

E-A18833>Y172393>FT146201 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FT146201/) (formed 1500 ybp, TMRCA 850 ybp) :
1 Albanian who descends from the Bobi tribe of the Dukagjin highlands.

E-A18833>Y172393>A9739 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A9739/) (formed 1500 ybp, TMRCA 1350 ybp):
FT61051 (formed 1350 ybp, TMRCA 350 ybp): 2 Bulgarians - one identified as being from Radevtsi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radevtsi), central Bulgaria
Y190254* (formed 1350 ybp, TMRCA 1000 ybp): 1 Bulgarian from Novo Selo, Vidin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novo_Selo,_Vidin_Province) (northwesternmost Bulgaria)
Y190253 (formed 1000 ybp, TMRCA 500 ybp): 2 Serbs from Šetonje (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0etonje), central Serbia

The village of Radevtsi was settled by Vlachs (https://revista.acadsudest.ro/Arhiv%C4%83/Revista%202016/RESEE_2016.pdf) during the 16th century under Petru cel Tānăr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_the_Younger). The Serbs under E-Y190253 know that their families migrated from Negotin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negotin_Valley) to Šetonje during the 18th century. The distance between Novo Selo (Vidin) and Negotin is ~30km. The geographical homeland of E-A9739+ in the early Middle Ages was in the Vlach/Romanian-speaking area of present-day eastern Serbia and the border region between Serbia-Romania-Bulgaria.

Under A9739* there are 2 Bosnian Muslims/Bosniaks from Bosanska Krajina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosanska_Krajina) (western Bosnia) and central Bosnia (as reported on the Serbian Genealogical Project 'Poreklo' (https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=4773.0)).

E-A18833>Y172393>A18844 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18844/) (formed 1500 ybp, TMRCA 1300 ybp):
Many results in Montenegro, Serbia, some in Bosnia, one in Bulgaria. A18844 are linked to the medieval Albanian Mataruga tribe and its offshoots throughout the central Balkans during its migration from its initial homeland in Katunska Nahija (from the word "katund", pasture settlement) and Old Herzegovina, present-day Montenegro where A18844 is found among the later Montenegrin Bjelice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjelice), Riđani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ri%C4%91ani) and other tribal communities. The Mataruga in 1477 are also found in Pljevlja (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge,_Montenegro)and Prijepolje where they form their own nahija in present-day Sandzak. Their slavicization wasn't yet completed because one of their heads bore the name Vojko Arbanash (https://www.academia.edu/16044391/SHTRIRJA_DHE_SLLAVIZIMI_I_VLLAZ%C3%8BRIVE_ALBANE_M ESJETARE_BURMAZI_DHE_MATARUGA_N%C3%8B_AREALIN_E_TR EK%C3%8BND%C3%8BSHIT_T%C3%8B_KUFIJVE_T%C3%8B_BOSNJ %C3%8BS_E_HERCEGOVIN%C3%8BS_MALIT_T%C3%8B_ZI_DHE_S ERBIS%C3%8B_SIPAS_DY_DEFTER%C3%8BVE_T%C3%8B_SANXHA KUT_T%C3%8B_HERCEGOVIN%C3%8BS_T%C3%8B_SHEK_XV_) and some villages still had Albanian toponymy (Dobroja Bukur, Gurovik, Dardaca). (This information also partly answers the question about Albanian presence in Sandzak before 1689). Later, the Mataruga migrated to central Serbia (Mataruge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge_(Kraljevo)), Mataruška Banja (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataru%C5%A1ka_Banja)) and others parts of the region.

Summary: Prior to Slavic migrations, there were two clusters of E-A18833>Y172393 in the Balkans. One was Albanian, the other was Vlach. We don't know their precise location but in the Middle Ages the Albanian cluster was found in northernmost present-day Albania and present-day 'Old Montenegro', while the Vlach in eastern Serbia. A9739* reported results suggest an original location to the north of the Albanian cluster in Bosnia, but we can't draw any conclusions at the moment. The eastern Serbian/western Bulgarian cluster is the result of the acculturation of the Vlach group and the Montenegrin/western Serbian cluster is the result of the acculturation of a part of the Albanian group.

*All TMRCA based on v. 9.00 at Yfull

I think there was some Z2103 found in the leaked samples from Eastern Serbia and there are no other branches of R1b specific to the area of Eastern Serbia and Western Bulgaria other than R1b-PF7562>BY16680 under which there is also an Albanian and BY611 so if some Z2103 probably BY611 was in the area more to the north and some E-V13 branches like this it does support proto-Albanian like speakers being present somewhere in the South Morava region in the early middle ages with the guys directly to the north being pretty much the same people but just speaking Latin so i would guess they were an urban population living in the valleys and after the slavs invaded they fled to the mountains.

Riverman
03-25-2021, 10:44 PM
I think there was some Z2103 found in the leaked samples from Eastern Serbia and there are no other branches of R1b specific to the area of Eastern Serbia and Western Bulgaria other than R1b-PF7562>BY16680 under which there is also an Albanian and BY611 so if some Z2103 probably BY611 was in the area more to the north and some E-V13 branches like this it does support proto-Albanian like speakers being present somewhere in the South Morava region in the early middle ages with the guys directly to the north being pretty much the same people but just speaking Latin so i would guess they were an urban population living in the valleys and after the slavs invaded they fled to the mountains.

Unlikely they were urban, because urbans are less likely to speak a more isolated minority dialect and even more unlikely to survive the transition as an independent unit. But otherwise its plausible that they were a local tribe to the North which fled to the mountains and fused with related locals. Which, however, makes it difficult to discern who spoke which dialect and which culture and dialect prevailed, that of the local mountaineers, or that of the incoming people.

Rrenjet.
03-25-2021, 11:18 PM
Regarding the yet to be verified ~300-500 CE Timacum Minus finds (including R-CTS9219 and J2b-L283), it should be noted that this location was roughly on the border of the Roman province of Dardania.

During the War of the Marcomanni ~166-180 CE, Marcus Aurelius established cohort II Aurelia Dardanorum, which was based in Naissus/Nis but also stayed in Timacum Minus.

Rrenjet.
03-26-2021, 12:08 AM
Can you tell us which are the subclades?


A quick review of E-A18833 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18833/)...

Other large groups of E-V13 Serbs share <1000 ybp MRCA-s with Albanians under E-BY168279 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY168279/) and E-Y133830 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y133830/). Both these subclades exhibit higher diversity among Albanians. Together with E-A18833, they are three of the four most common E-V13 clusters among Serbs today.

There are also less frequent cases of Serbs at <1000 years from Albanians in other subclades.

capsian
03-26-2021, 11:57 AM
Hello i want to ask about what branches of Haplogroup E-M81 are in Albania

Rrenjet.
03-26-2021, 01:17 PM
Hello i want to ask about what branches of Haplogroup E-M81 are in Albania

There are at least two different clusters which have been discovered until now: one in Northwestern Albania, very rare, and one slightly more common one in Kukes, Has and Opoje. So far, none of them have done SNP testing to determine downstream subclades.

capsian
03-26-2021, 02:00 PM
There are at least two different clusters which have been discovered until now: one in Northwestern Albania, very rare, and one slightly more common one in Kukes, Has and Opoje. So far, none of them have done SNP testing to determine downstream subclades.

thanks
do you have samples Y-STR

Pribislav
03-26-2021, 02:56 PM
Are there more Albanians in this clade besides these two?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y177539/ (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y177539/)

We have three Serbs in Serbian DNA Project that belong to this clade, two from Central Bosnia and one from the vicinity of Belgrade. Not one of them has done BigY/WGS so far, but considering they share pretty distinct Y-STR haplotype with these two Albanians, I expect they would also share most of 33 SNPs currently at this level. TMRCA estimated for all five of them by NevGen is ~1300 ybp, so the relationship is probably Early Medieval.

44024

capsian
03-26-2021, 04:11 PM
Are there more Albanians in this clade besides these two?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y177539/ (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y177539/)

We have three Serbs in Serbian DNA Project that belong to this clade, two from Central Bosnia and one from the vicinity of Belgrade. Not one of them has done BigY/WGS so far, but considering they share pretty distinct Y-STR haplotype with these two Albanians, I expect they would also share most of 33 SNPs currently at this level. TMRCA estimated for all five of them by NevGen is ~1300 ybp, so the relationship is probably Early Medieval.

44024
is it possible to consider them as Byzantines of Levantine origin?

Pribislav
03-26-2021, 04:24 PM
is it possible to consider them as Byzantines of Levantine origin?

That would be my best guess, but the bottleneck between Y159961 and Y177539 is very long (~4000 years), so other scenarios are also quite possible.

capsian
03-26-2021, 04:42 PM
That would be my best guess, but the bottleneck between Y159961 and Y177539 is very long (~4000 years), so other scenarios are also quite possible.

so it is possible that they were present in the Balkans between 1000 BC and 500 AD

slavomir
03-26-2021, 07:16 PM
Other large groups of E-V13 Serbs share <1000 ybp MRCA-s with Albanians under E-BY168279 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY168279/) and E-Y133830 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y133830/). Both these subclades exhibit higher diversity among Albanians. Together with E-A18833, they are three of the four most common E-V13 clusters among Serbs today.

There are also less frequent cases of Serbs at <1000 years from Albanians in other subclades.

Doesn't E-BY168279 look more diverse in the Kuči region of Montenegro, with one branch migrating into Albania?

For E-Y133830, I can't see any clear migration pattern. In the upstream sucblades there are Poland, Ukraine, even France? I think more people need to test to bring a conclusion about this subclade.

Kelmendasi
03-26-2021, 07:36 PM
Doesn't E-BY168279 look more diverse in the Kuči region of Montenegro, with one branch migrating into Albania?

For E-Y133830, I can't see any clear migration pattern. In the upstream sucblades there are Poland, Ukraine, even France? I think more people need to test to bring a conclusion about this subclade.
There are multiple Albanians under E-BY168279+, the one on Yfull who is BY165837- is from around the town of Fushė-Krujė in the Durrės County and matches an Albanian from the Kurbin District, located in the Lezhė County. There is also the BY168279+ cluster of Albanians belonging to the Bankeqi brotherhood of the Trie(p)shi tribe or fis, located in eastern Montenegro, which also matches some nearby Gruda. Some Albanians are also certainly E-BY165837 like the Kuči/Kuēi, such as those from Koja e Kuēit.

Rrenjet.
03-26-2021, 08:42 PM
Are there more Albanians in this clade besides these two?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y177539/ (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y177539/)

Just those two so far.


so it is possible that they were present in the Balkans between 1000 BC and 500 AD

Yes, but please inquire through the email addresses at the bottom of the page here: https://rrenjet.com/


Doesn't E-BY168279 look more diverse in the Kuči region of Montenegro, with one branch migrating into Albania?

For E-Y133830, I can't see any clear migration pattern. In the upstream sucblades there are Poland, Ukraine, even France? I think more people need to test to bring a conclusion about this subclade.

That new sample under E-Y133830 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y133830/) is an Albanian from the Berat region. His lineage branched off a bit earlier than the others in the subclade, so as you can see in the live version of the tree, he will be the only Y133830* after the next update. It seems the subclade TMRCA estimate will significantly increase after this sample is included into the calculation, probably reaching deep into the Middle Ages. You can dispute the ancient origins of the branch of course, but its own diversity is greater in Albanians.

Even more so for E-BY168279 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY168279/), where there are at least 2-3 Albanian lineages and one with both Albanians and Slavs where Kuci stems from, as Kelmendasi explained above. I can only add that in the last couple of weeks one more E-V13 result from Fushe-Kruje appeared with DYS388=13. We will see if we can have it SNP tested after the Kurbin sample's WGS is ready.

Bruzmi
03-27-2021, 12:46 AM
Regarding the yet to be verified ~300-500 CE Timacum Minus finds (including R-CTS9219 and J2b-L283), it should be noted that this location was roughly on the border of the Roman province of Dardania.

During the War of the Marcomanni ~166-180 CE, Marcus Aurelius established cohort II Aurelia Dardanorum, which was based in Naissus/Nis but also stayed in Timacum Minus.

It's a good observation. Based on the fact that 2/3 known branches of E-Y172393 are historically located very close to each other around Lake Shkodra (FT146201 to the south, A18844 to the north of the lake) and A9739* is presently located in Bosnia without a known or plausible historical link to other A9739 which spread from Negotin-Vidin, I think that a direction west-to-east looks very likely.

The Negotin valley was part of Dacia Remesiana, an area of heavy concentration of settlers from the western and central Balkans. Iz istorije rimskog rudarstva u Gornjoj Meziji (https://ojs.zrc-sazu.si/av/article/view/9561): Be it noted that Dalmatian immigrants are met with both in the district of Remesiana (Dalmatas, Proc. De aed. IV 4, p. 123, 8 Haury) and in the metalliferous area of Timaeus (to judge from Jupiter’s attribute and the dedicator’s cognomen, the altar Živa antika 15 [1966] p. 391 ff., no. 10, was set up at Rgotina by a Salonitan). This area formed a large mining network with Timacum Minus and Municipium Dardanorum.

Huban
03-27-2021, 04:09 AM
and A9739* is presently located in Bosnia without a known or plausible historical link to other A9739 which spread from Negotin-Vidin, I think that a direction west-to-east looks very likely.


Those Bosniaks have completed YSEQ's E-V13 SNP Pack which contains only the A9739. They haven't done BigY/NGS. They are not E-A9739*. "*" next to an SNP at their project means SNP confirmed not that BigY has been done and came out basal.
As Bulgarians happen to share only the A9739, I think a closer relationship to them is more likely for these Bosniaks, as generally thus far most of their profiled V13 do have closer matches elsewhere.

One is in origin from the city of Velika Kladuša, and they lost the memory about more distant origins. 400 years ago all Cazinska Krajina forts were resettled from other areas, small percentage of people there are indigenous. And mroe than 40 % claim Turkish origin in that region. This could be the case of an arrival of someone Islamized in Eastern Balkans as an Ottoman fort guard.

Other A9739 Bosniak is from Central-North Bosnia border, I guess could get some info on them as my greatgreatgrandfather was from a village 5 km away.

Huban
03-27-2021, 04:20 AM
Are there more Albanians in this clade besides these two?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y177539/ (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y177539/)

We have three Serbs in Serbian DNA Project that belong to this clade, two from Central Bosnia and one from the vicinity of Belgrade. Not one of them has done BigY/WGS so far, but considering they share pretty distinct Y-STR haplotype with these two Albanians, I expect they would also share most of 33 SNPs currently at this level. TMRCA estimated for all five of them by NevGen is ~1300 ybp, so the relationship is probably Early Medieval.


Clearly closely related to those Serbs is a Romanian RU267 from Cluj (Basarabi study). Romanian doesn't sport the newer dys390=24 mutation. Nor does he have Albanian 458=16.

Bruzmi
03-27-2021, 11:12 AM
Those Bosniaks have completed YSEQ's E-V13 SNP Pack which contains only the A9739. They haven't done BigY/NGS. They are not E-A9739*. "*" next to an SNP at their project means SNP confirmed not that BigY has been done and came out basal.
As Bulgarians happen to share only the A9739, I think a closer relationship to them is more likely for these Bosniaks, as generally thus far most of their profiled V13 do have closer matches elsewhere.

One is in origin from the city of Velika Kladuša, and they lost the memory about more distant origins. 400 years ago all Cazinska Krajina forts were resettled from other areas, small percentage of people there are indigenous. And mroe than 40 % claim Turkish origin in that region. This could be the case of an arrival of someone Islamized in Eastern Balkans as an Ottoman fort guard.

Other A9739 Bosniak is from Central-North Bosnia border, I guess could get some info on them as my greatgreatgrandfather was from a village 5 km away.

If they eventually form another A9739+ subclade, I don't think that it changes E-A18833 migration "models". I see two possible routes: one simply west-to-east and a two-way route from Dardania. In both cases the Vlach clades A9739 clades moved from the west to Negotin-Vidin and in the 18th century in the opposite direction from Negotin to central Serbia. We know that the Vlachs who moved to Radevtsi, central Bulgaria did so in the 16th century from Wallachia, so it excludes any closer connection to Ottoman soldiers in the eastern Balkans. This entire cluster was Vlach-speaking and Christian until the early modern times.

Are there sources which list the areas from which the Bosniaks of Velika Kladuša and the surrounding area come from? It would be interesting if some of these families come Herzegovina, just to the north of the two other E-A18833 clades.

Aspar
03-27-2021, 02:27 PM
If they eventually form another A9739+ subclade, I don't think that it changes E-A18833 migration "models". I see two possible routes: one simply west-to-east and a two-way route from Dardania. In both cases the Vlach clades A9739 clades moved from the west to Negotin-Vidin and in the 18th century in the opposite direction from Negotin to central Serbia. We know that the Vlachs who moved to Radevtsi, central Bulgaria did so in the 16th century from Wallachia, so it excludes any closer connection to Ottoman soldiers in the eastern Balkans. This entire cluster was Vlach-speaking and Christian until the early modern times.

Are there sources which list the areas from which the Bosniaks of Velika Kladuša and the surrounding area come from? It would be interesting if some of these families come Herzegovina, just to the north of the two other E-A18833 clades.

This is an interesting clade TBH.

If I read the tree correctly, the 'Montenegrin/Serb' branch E-A18844 seems to originate from East Serbia. At the root there is a sample from Zajachar, East Serbia that splits this subclade. Considering there is E-A9739 also found in East Serbia and North-Western Bulgaria which if I remember correctly seems to be the oldest subclade downstream of E-Y272393. At the same time the 'Albanian' subclade is 800 ybp old, which makes it the 'youngest' out of the three.

To me this looks like a clear cut. E-Y172393 seems to have been native to East Serbia before his descendants started migrating to different places. Possibly has something to do with the Danube limes and forts located in Dacia Ripensis such as Viminacium and Bononia.

As such this very E-Y172393 could have been a Romanised Balkan man of possible Moesian or Dacian background.

slavomir
03-27-2021, 03:36 PM
There are multiple Albanians under E-BY168279+, the one on Yfull who is BY165837- is from around the town of Fushė-Krujė in the Durrės County and matches an Albanian from the Kurbin District, located in the Lezhė County. There is also the BY168279+ cluster of Albanians belonging to the Bankeqi brotherhood of the Trie(p)shi tribe or fis, located in eastern Montenegro, which also matches some nearby Gruda. Some Albanians are also certainly E-BY165837 like the Kuči/Kuēi, such as those from Koja e Kuēit.



That new sample under E-Y133830 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y133830/) is an Albanian from the Berat region. His lineage branched off a bit earlier than the others in the subclade, so as you can see in the live version of the tree, he will be the only Y133830* after the next update. It seems the subclade TMRCA estimate will significantly increase after this sample is included into the calculation, probably reaching deep into the Middle Ages. You can dispute the ancient origins of the branch of course, but its own diversity is greater in Albanians.

Even more so for E-BY168279 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY168279/), where there are at least 2-3 Albanian lineages and one with both Albanians and Slavs where Kuci stems from, as Kelmendasi explained above. I can only add that in the last couple of weeks one more E-V13 result from Fushe-Kruje appeared with DYS388=13. We will see if we can have it SNP tested after the Kurbin sample's WGS is ready.

So under E-BY168279 there are 3 clusters, Kuči, Triepshi and Lezhe-Durres? Could it be recostructed how the migrations of these groups went?

Rrenjet.
03-27-2021, 05:41 PM
So under E-BY168279 there are 3 clusters, Kuči, Triepshi and Lezhe-Durres? Could it be recostructed how the migrations of these groups went?

The results from Kurbin and Fushe-Kruje show some STR diversity, so first we need to wait for their analyses to finish. That will clarify the internal structure of the subclade, which may indicate a time and place of origin.

trdbr1234
03-27-2021, 06:31 PM
Those proposing Eastern Balkan origins of subclades of EV13, R1b and J2b, I hope you understand what great offense you have made to the great Albanez people. All Albanians bearing EV13, R1b and J2b are all directly descended from Palasgians from Albania. So, E-Y172393 cannot therefore have arrived from Bulgaria/Romania 800 years ago.

Bruzmi
03-27-2021, 06:49 PM
This is an interesting clade TBH.

If I read the tree correctly, the 'Montenegrin/Serb' branch E-A18844 seems to originate from East Serbia. At the root there is a sample from Zajachar, East Serbia that splits this subclade. Considering there is E-A9739 also found in East Serbia and North-Western Bulgaria which if I remember correctly seems to be the oldest subclade downstream of E-Y272393. At the same time the 'Albanian' subclade is 800 ybp old, which makes it the 'youngest' out of the three.

To me this looks like a clear cut. E-Y172393 seems to have been native to East Serbia before his descendants started migrating to different places. Possibly has something to do with the Danube limes and forts located in Dacia Ripensis such as Viminacium and Bononia.

As such this very E-Y172393 could have been a Romanised Balkan man of possible Moesian or Dacian background.

I have posted a full overview here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3821-Albanian-DNA-Project&p=760455&viewfull=1#post760455). The TMRCA of E-A18833 is ~2700 ybp and there are three separate branches of E-Y172393 formed ~1500 ybp (per v. 9.00). In medieval times, around Lake Shkodra there was an Albanian, 'western' cluster of Mataruga (A18844), the ancestral lineage of Shoshi(FT146201) and possibly other tribes whose names haven't survived and in the Romanian-Bulgarian-Serbian border a Vlach, 'eastern' cluster (A9739) which spread eastwards and later westwards. The existing downstream clades of A9739 are "younger" than FT146201 and A18844, but A9739 formed in the same period. I think that the presence of A9739 (whether it forms a new clade or not) in Bosnia and the fact that FT146201 and A18844 were originally in very close proximity to each other suggest as more likely a west-to-east route (the exact location is, of course, under debate) which, in my opinion, is indeed linked to the movement of people to the mines of the central Balkans and the frontier forts.

But I think that it is more important to recognize some broader issues whichever model is correct eventually. If we didn't know the family history and the historical movement of various groups in the medieval Balkans, it would be difficult to explain even the basics. If we had no knowledge about the movement of these families in the 18th century or the movement of Vlachs in Radevtsi or the movement of the Mataruga tribe and its role in the formation of new groups, we would know very, very little. Without historical details, every model of expansion devolves into a guessing game.

Bruzmi
03-30-2021, 07:25 PM
the ancestral lineage of Shoshi(FT146201)

Small correction: I meant Bobi instead of Shoshi as you can see in the original post.

Bruzmi
04-10-2021, 08:07 PM
68 new results (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=283497063351198&id=101700961530810) at Project Rrėnjėt. The most frequent results are E-V13 (39.7%), J2b-L283 (17.6%) and R1b-M269 (16.2%)



E-V13
27


R1b-M269
11


J2b-L283
12


J2a-M410
4


I2a-L460
4


I1-M253
2


I2a-M223
2


R1a-M417
1


E-V22
2


E-M123
1


Q-L275
1


E-M81
1



Krujė, Durrės:, E1b-M123>M34>M84
Berishe, Prizren: E1b-M81
Hot, Kamenicė, Gjilan: E1b-V22>L1250
Devoll, Korēė: E1b-V22>L1250>BY7402>CTS4089 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS4089/)
Morinė, Gjakovė: E-V13
Gash, Viti, Gjilan: E-V13
Berishė, Skėnderaj, Mitrovicė: E-V13
Hot, Skėnderaj, Mitrovicė: E-V13
Thaē, Klinė, Pejė: E-V13
Maksuti, Prizren: E-V13
Durrės: E-V13
Durrės: E-V13
Krujė, Durrės: E-V13
Pėrmet, Gjirokastėr: E-V13
Berat: E-V13>Z16663
Selitė, Mirditė, Lezhė: E-V13>Z5017>CTS9320>BY20093
Berat: E-V13>Z5017>CTS9320>Z16988>BY34282
Sarandė, Vlorė: E-V13>Z5017>CTS9320>Z16988>BY34282 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY34282/)
Durrės: E-V13>Z5017>CTS9320>Z17107>Z38456 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z38456/)
Tiranė: E-V13>Z5017>CTS9320>Z17107>Z38456
Berishė, Kaēanik, Ferizaj: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC11457>FGC11450>Y146086
Gjakovė: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC11457>FGC11450>Y146086
Krujė, Durrės: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC11457>FGC11450>Y146086 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y146086/)
Klinė, Pejė: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93120
Berishė, Pejė: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93120
Berishė, Pejė: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93120
Berishė, Prishtinė: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93120
Berishė, Fushė-Kosovė, Prishtinė: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93120
Gash, Prizren, Prizren: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93120
Jegunoc, Pollog, Maqedoni: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>Y3183
Krujė, Durrės: E-V13>Z5018>S2979>Y3183>Z16661>BY168279
Selitė, Mirditė, Lezhė: I1-M253
Selitė, Mirditė, Lezhė: I1-M253
Fier: I2a-M223>L1229>Z2068
Elbasan: I2a-M223>L701>S25733 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S25733/)
Lumė, Kukės: I2a-L460>P37>M423>L621>CTS10228>Y3120
Kelmend, Gjakovė: I2a-L460>P37>M423>L621>CTS10228>Y3120
Krasniqe, Pejė: I2a-L460>P37>M423>L621>CTS10228>Y3120
Shkodėr: I2a-L460>P37>M423>L621>CTS10228>Y3120
Dibėr: J2a-M410
Vlorė: J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25
Korēė: J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2148/)
Gash, Podujevė: J2a-M410>Z6046 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6046/)>SK1321
Hot, Prishtinė: J2b-L283
Durrės: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045
Fan, Prishtinė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045
Kuzhnen, Mirditė, Lezhė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>Y85522 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y85522/)
Fan, Mirditė, Lezhė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
Selitė, Mirditė, Lezhė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
Selitė, Mirditė, Lezhė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
Selitė, Mirditė, Lezhė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
Gash, Gjakovė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751>Z38299 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38299/)>Y82453
Krasniqe, Vushtrri, Mitrovicė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751>Z38299>Y82453
Gash, Skėnderaj, Mitrovicė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751>Z38299>Y82453
Krasniqe, Podujevė: J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751>Z38299>Y82453
Mat, Dibėr: Q1b-L275 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L275/)
Shkodėr: R1a-M417>Z283>Z282>M458>CTS11962>L1029 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/)
Lushnje, Fier: R1b-M269>PF7562>PF7563 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7563/)
Thaē, Obiliq, Prishtinė: R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Thaē-Zogaj, Suharekė, Prizren: R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Berat, Berat: R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Krujė, Durrės: R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Lushnje, Fier: R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Kthellė, Mirditė, Lezhė: R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Shkodėr: R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Bytyē, Suharekė, Prizren: R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705>A24000 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-A24000/)
Grudė, Tuz: R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705>FT49932
Morinė, Kamenicė, Gjilan, Kosovė, R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705>Y32147>Y133365 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y133365/)

broder
04-11-2021, 07:04 PM
^^ Berishe are Y93102 (not Y93120), and Krasniqe and Gash are Y52453 ( not Y82453).

Ton of discrepancies between fis and their results there, especially in Kosove. I feel these guys intentionally do that to muddy the waters, hence why they hide last names and places where they come from, so they remain unverifiable. Basically just statistics for the region where they come from.

I will give you one example that I was able to verify recently by reaching out to them: I am talking about the Y93102 Thaēi-Zogaj sample they have from Malisheve. This guy reported them to me as Zogaj, Thaē from Malisheve, and I actually paid for their test because I was curious few years ago where Zogaj fit in within the Thaēi clan. Truth is that specific family, even though they carry the last name Zogaj, just like the Thaēi families from around there, fis wise they identify as Berishe.

Bruzmi
04-11-2021, 10:50 PM
^^ Berishe are Y93102 (not Y93120), and Krasniqe and Gash are Y52453 ( not Y82453).

Good typo error catch there. I copied the results from their page so I suppose that it should be fixed in the original post



Truth is that specific family, even though they carry the last name Zogaj, just like the Thaēi families from around there, fis wise they identify as Berishe.

Thaē Malishevė, Prizren, E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102
Thaē Deēan, Gjakovė, E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC11457>FGC11450>Y146086
Thaē Pukė, Shkodėr, E-V13>Z5018>S2979>L241>BY5617>PH2180
Thaē Pukė, Shkodėr, E-V13>Z5018>S2979>L241>BY5617>PH2180
Thaē Pukė, Shkodėr, E-V13>Z5018>S2979>L241>BY5617>PH2180
Thaē Skėnderaj, Mitrovicė, E-V13>Z5018>S2979>L241>BY5617>PH2180
Thaē Prizren, Prizren, R1b-M269>PF7562>PF7563>Z29758>PF7566>FGC40202
Thaē Shtime, Ferizaj, R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Thaē-Zogaj, Malishevė, R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Thaē-Zogaj , Malishevė, R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Thaē-Zogaj , Malishevė, R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Thaē-Mazrek, Malishevė, R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Thaē-Lohje, Ferizaj, J2b-M205>PF7321>CTS1969>Y22075>Y22059

to which P.RR. has added:

Thaē, Obiliq, Prishtinė: R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705
Thaē-Zogaj, Suharekė, Prizren: R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705

I compared the results with those in Gjenetika Shqiptare (http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/). Some are overlapping like the Zogaj Y93102 result and it has additional results like:

Surname Fis/Bajrak Municipality Region Country HG
Dema Thaē-Bobi Kacanik Ferizaj Kosovė E1b-V13>CTS5856>Z5017>Z19851>A18833
Batalaku Thaē Gjakovė Gjakovė Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC11450>Y173822
Delija Thaē Gjakovė Gjakovė Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>L241>PH2180>Y30588
Palushi Thaē Klinė Pejė Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>L241>PH2180>Y30588
Nika Thaē Fushė Arrėz Shkodėr Shqipėri E1b-V13>Z5018>L241>PH2180>Y30588
Doda Thaē Preshevė Pēinjė Serbi E1b-V13>Z5018>L241>PH2180
Kameri Thaē Kamenicė Gjilan Kosovė R1b-Z2103>BY611>Z2705>BY147912>BY105603
Thaqi Thaē Gjakovė Gjakovė Kosovė R1b-Z2103>BY611>Z2705>Y32147>Y133365>Y133384
Beiqi Thaē Medvegjė Jabllanicė Serbi R1b-PF7562>PF7563>BY16680
Lumezi Thaē Prizren Prizren Kosovė R1b-PF7562>PF7563>Z29758>PF7566>FGC40202
and some J2b-L283 results like:
Dervishi Thaē Kamenicė Gjilan Kosovė J2b-L283>Z597>Y21045>Y20899>PH1751
Korbi Thaē-Korbi Kamenicė Gjilan Kosovė J2b-L283>Z597>Z631>Z1043>Y22894
Abazi Thaē Preshevė Pēinjė Serbi J2b-L283>Z597>Z631>Z1043>FGC55778


As an outside observer of both projects I see a repetition of similar discrepancies in results which have to do with issues which occur because of the differences between (self-)identification and classification from outsiders and issues which arise from the confusion of the different meanings which the fis has acquired as a lineage, as a social group and as the basis of the later bajrak system. To me these "mistakes" between self-identification and actual ancestry are at this phase unavoidable because the actual results are being compared to a largely obsolete classification system based on the writings of authors like Edith Durham who made many, many mistakes both factual and methodological. (see Nebi Bardhoshi (2013), Fisi nė pėrfytyrime antropologjike (https://www.academia.edu/41931901/Fisi_n%C3%AB_p%C3%ABrfytyrime_antropologjike)). The same pattern of discrepancies between classification/self-identification and actual results is also common in Montenegrin tribes and many other groups.

I see the gathering of primary data as fieldwork for dispelling old classification systems which in turn will allow us to engage in modern anthropological research (see four-field approach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-field_approach)) The more results we have - regardless of self-identification and classification compatibility - the better informed we will be in order to write down accurate genealogies.

broder
04-12-2021, 06:19 AM
The sample I brought up, we recently discovered that they are actually Berishe. Just like what their results suggest.

My issue is not with heterogeneity or self identification, but with misinformation.

Rrenjet.
04-12-2021, 08:16 PM
The family mentioned above identify as Zogaj of Thac, their surname is Zogaj and they do not marry other Zogaj in the village. That is what they knew then and still know today, and that is exactly what they told me when I visited their village for the test. The eldest in the family even dismissed DNA testing once he heard of a possible relation to Berisha.

I have to repeat that our policy on publication is very clear: all ancestry information found on our website is reported as the person declares it to us. We are steadily moving toward a more responsible and academically acceptable approach to collection and publication. One measure we instituted months ago is standardized self-reporting, as members now sign a form which provides ancestry information and permits its publication. All these fis/result “discrepancies” are from members who have already provided such information and thus are easily verifiable.

Albanian clans display high patrilineal homogeneity, but there are plenty of exceptions, especially outside traditional fis borders. In reality, these results only add to the richness and complexity of our history. Some of the results mentioned above even have very promising haplotypes that should increase the diversity of Albanian lines in Kosove. And more such interesting cases are coming, together with upgrades for a part of them.

Bruzmi
04-12-2021, 09:30 PM
Albanian clans display high patrilineal homogeneity, but there are plenty of exceptions, especially outside traditional fis borders. In reality, these results only add to the richness and complexity of our history. Some of the results mentioned above even have very promising haplotypes that should increase the diversity of Albanian lines in Kosove. And more such interesting cases are coming, together with upgrades for a part of them.

Discrepancies between actual and reported lineages have been hypothesized for a long time. Discrepancies between testing and classification confirm these hypotheses. I consider them a feature, not a bug of the testing procedure. Increased diversity of lineages in Kosovė can explain many issues which are otherwise left unexplained.

Rrenjet.
04-12-2021, 10:04 PM
Discrepancies between actual and reported lineages have been hypothesized for a long time. Discrepancies between testing and classification confirm these hypotheses. I consider them a feature, not a bug of the testing procedure. Increased diversity of lineages in Kosovė can explain many issues which are otherwise left unexplained.

Agreed. Self-reported information has to be presented as the people declare it, and as an independent variable it should not be meddled with. Beyond that, more holistic approaches to the study of fis as a social and political structure (often overlapping but not identical) are certainly needed If thorough research such as you described a couple of posts above is conducted, a third variable, in addition to self-reported information and DNA result, could be added to the database for a more comprehensive understanding of each observation, and to compare with self-reports.

Indeed understanding which lines developed within a fis, which ones were absorbed as it expanded or its brotherhoods migrated, etc, may reveal valuable information to dismantle the way too simplistic picture 19-20th century Serbian literature has painted of Albanians in Kosove as either recent arrivals from the highlands or assimilated Serbs. Reality is far more nuanced.

Moderator
04-13-2021, 11:32 AM
The thread is temporarily closed. Despite numerous warnings and reminders personal attacks and violations of the ToS continued, so we had no other choice than to close this thread. Sanctions will follow.

Moderator
05-07-2021, 02:50 PM
This thread has been conditionally re-opened. We call your attention to the fact that at least four warnings have been left in this thread, and we have had to intervene numerous times due to thread derailments, especially involving off-topic one-on-one arguments between members. Any future derailments of this thread will result in its permanent closure. Thank you for your cooperation.

Rrenjet.
05-07-2021, 11:12 PM
Thank you. I will be posting some of the interesting recent results. Hopefully the discussion will remain substantive.

A couple of developments for J-PH1571>Z38299:

- Under J-FT134628 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT134628/): Clan Kastrati of Malesi e Madhe and a large part of Lura are now have an Y-DNA connection dating to the Early Middle Ages. This subclade must have been around the northeastern mountains of Albania for a long time, because the Lura lineage is even more closely related (probably Late Middle Ages) to a new result from the Maqellare area.

- Under J-Y52453 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y46913/): The Y-DNA ties between clans Gash i Gurit, Nikaj and Krasniqe have finally been determined. We have high-resolution results from each one of Krasniqe's brotherhoods, plus one from Nikaj and one from Gash i Gurit. It seems this lineage, which a large number of Albanians from northern Albania and Kosove come from, initially expanded sometime between 1100 and 1500 AD, and then developed into the three clans we know today.

An interesting detail is that the three results from Krasniqe have closer ties to each-other than to the one from Nikaj, despite many ancestral legends claiming that Nikaj clan descends from Nike Mekshi, the supposed brother of Kole Mekshi.

Exercitus
05-08-2021, 03:35 PM
Hi Rrenjet,
If i may, is it true that YF84044 at I-Y18331* is of Albanian origin ?? And if it is sow, can you tell me the genetic affinity with the Greek YF64626 ( Xenos from Zakynthos ) at I-Y18331*!? Thanks .https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331*/

Kelmendasi
05-08-2021, 04:34 PM
On the topic of J2b-PH1751>Y46913 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y46913/) lineages, the Dukaginzāde/Dukagjini line has been confirmed as Y46913>Y47962 (http://www.gjenetika.com/testohet-nje-pasardhes-i-familjes-dukagjini/) which is shared with an Arbėreshė from around Palermo, Sicily, and an Albanian from the city of Lezha in north-western Albania (though his last name possibly indicates origin from the nearby village of Rraboshtė). The TMRCA for this cluster is ~650 ybp, placing the common ancestor for these three samples sometime during the late fourteenth century. Considering that the Dukagjini appear for the first time in the historical record in the late thirteenth century, I think it can be suggested that the Arbėreshė and Albanian from Lezha are descendants of the Dukagjini or that their paternal ancestors belonged to the wider farefisnķ.

Since this cluster is under PH1751>Y46913, there is also a more distant relation (~900 ybp) with the Y46913>Y126399 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y126399/) lineages that the Krasniqi, Nikaj, and Gashi i Gurit belong to.

Rrenjet.
05-08-2021, 07:38 PM
Hi Rrenjet,
If i may, is it true that YF84044 at I-Y18331* is of Albanian origin ?? And if it is sow, can you tell me the genetic affinity with the Greek YF64626 ( Xenos from Zakynthos ) at I-Y18331*!? Thanks .https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331*/

He is Albanian from Gjirokaster. I do not have access to YF64626, and YFull has become a little less predictable in the way they classify samples before tree updates, so don't take this with 100% certainty yet, but it seems the Albanian will remain where he is, so with *, parallel with the Polish and Greek samples, or at the very least, he will be very distant from them. Right now, the whole cluster seems quite diverse in South Albania, Macedonia and Northern Greece.

Rrenjet.
05-14-2021, 12:14 PM
Some updates on Albanian mtDNA. Since the last update about 50 new results have been added. The total is now 151. We hope to reach 200 within several months. The most common haplogroups are:

H - 46.4%
U (xK) - 15.2%
J - 9.9%
W - 5.3%
T1- 4%
K - 4%

The most common subclades are:

H12a - 5.3%
J1c2e* - 4.6%
H55b1 - 4%
W1c3* - 2.6%
Other subclades are all 2% or below.

In comparison to Y-DNA lineages, mtDNA ones remain far more diverse, especially on subclade level. Most of the subclades, even the rarer ones, are dispersed throughout different regions. This may be due to the relatively older age of mtDNA subclades, but it would also be interesting to see if higher female mobility due to traditional family norms of marriage and exogamy have played a significant part in this.

Balki
05-23-2021, 04:46 PM
anyone know DNA result or Unipaternal DNA of Albanian Gypsies ?

Rrenjet.
05-23-2021, 04:50 PM
anyone know DNA result or Unipaternal DNA of Albanian Gypsies ?

Check out this study: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00414-010-0432-x.

Rrenjet.
05-27-2021, 06:56 PM
These are some new results from the old brotherhoods of Malesi and Pult areas:

- E-V13>Y145455>BY191636 from Lopci brotherhood, from the Vajush area in Reē. They moved there from the Shala Valley, where they are still remembered as one of the anas clans. The tester formed a subclade with another Albanian of clan Krasniqe from the Istog, who may originate from Bjake, in today's Mertur, Tropoje. They should be related within 500-900 years, which adds credence their supposed origins from Shale and Mertur.
- E-V13>L241>PH2180 from a Mavriq family, Llap region. They should be originally from Shale valley, having first moved to Curraj of Nikaj, then to Llap and elsewhere.
- E-V13 from the Martindreaj brotherhood of Sume, thought to be the oldest inhabitants of Sume. Their Y37 haplotype does not match any of the known E-V13 clusters.
- E-V13>CTS9320>BY62310 from two anas of Hot families. They match the Kelmend hapotype. The distance should be relatively low, and will be determined very soon. The Hot anas families on the Montenegro side of the border remain to be tested. Boge is also E-V13>BY62310.
- J2b-M205>Y22079 from the Vuklaj anas brotherhood of Lohje. Since J-M205 has been found in Upper Lohje and in Reē as well, it may have been there a long time.
- R-Z2705>Y32147 from Dotē of Reē, thought to be the oldest inhabitants there.

There are also some new results from other families who were discussed as potentially anas in Kastrat and Hot, and they match the main clan clusters, under J2b-L283>PH1751>Y195280 and J2b-L283>Y21878>FT124983, and other families from Nikaj and Krasniqe territory who claim different ancestries are in the clan clusters under J2b-L283>PH1751>Y126399.

Some of the older results include:
- E-V13 from Boksh of Plan, who are thought to be anas there.
- R1b-Z2705>BY105603 from the anas of Shkrel in Xhaj.
- R1b-Z2705>BY218801 from Kapit of Nikaj, who some regard as anas.
- R1b-Z2705>FT49932 from some of the older brotherhoods of Grude and very likely Triesh.
- E-V13>CTS9320>BY62310 from the Gjeēaj brotherhood of Kryezi, but who claim descent from the Shale valley.

Many brotherhoods, especially on the Montenegro side of the border, are yet to be tested, but the haplogroup distribution in what should be the older population layer of the Malesi and Pult looks typical of Albanian regions.

Kelmendasi
05-27-2021, 08:21 PM
I wonder if the Lopēi of Vajush (and the anas of the Shala Valley) are in fact related to the Lopeci bashkėsi or fis that is recorded in the Venetian cadastre of Scutari (1416-1417) across a number of settlements in Malėsi. In the register they are concentrated in the settlement of Grizha (Catholic priests Aleks and Nikollė, Andre, Gjergj, Jon, and Nikollė Lopeci) though also show up in Kerec/ē (Aleks Lopeci) and Rrjoll (Nikollė Lopeci).

Kelmendasi
05-28-2021, 04:19 AM
If I recall correctly, brotherhoods descending from the anas Delaj of Trieshi have tested as R1b-Z2705 (FT49932?) like the Bekaj brotherhoods whose traditions maintain that they arrived from Rijeka Crnojevića (formerly known as Rijeka Ivan Beka') - although other stories state Kopliku as they place of origin. The Delaj themselves have been connected to the medieval Albanian Bythėdosi (also rendered as Bytadosi, Butadosi, Bitidosi, Bitadosi) fis which is recorded for the first time in 1335.

The fis is then recorded in the Venetian cadastre of 1416-1417 in the settlement of Shėn Auraē which is believed to have been situated near the modern settlement of Kalldrun in Malėsi. Shėn Auraē itself was headed by a certain Nikė Butadosi and others belonging to the fis such as Vuketė Butadosi and Nika the son of Jon Butadosi are recorded. Other noteworthy fise or tribes also occupied this settlement, such as the Kuēi (Aleks and Maz Kuēi) and Bushati (Benko and Gjergj Bushati).

In the Ottoman defter of 1485 the settlement of Bytidosi is recorded in the nahiyah of Kuēi with a total of eleven households. The connection to the Delaj of Trieshi arises from the fact that among the heads of households recorded, a certain Vuk son of Deli is listed. The settlement itself may have also been located where modern Delaj is.

excine
05-31-2021, 12:11 AM
If I recall correctly, brotherhoods descending from the anas Delaj of Trieshi have tested as R1b-Z2705 (FT49932?) like the Bekaj brotherhoods whose traditions maintain that they arrived from Rijeka Crnojevića (formerly known as Rijeka Ivan Beka') - although other stories state Kopliku as they place of origin. The Delaj themselves have been connected to the medieval Albanian Bythėdosi (also rendered as Bytadosi, Butadosi, Bitidosi, Bitadosi) fis which is recorded for the first time in 1335.

The fis is then recorded in the Venetian cadastre of 1416-1417 in the settlement of Shėn Auraē which is believed to have been situated near the modern settlement of Kalldrun in Malėsi. Shėn Auraē itself was headed by a certain Nikė Butadosi and others belonging to the fis such as Vuketė Butadosi and Nika the son of Jon Butadosi are recorded. Other noteworthy fise or tribes also occupied this settlement, such as the Kuēi (Aleks and Maz Kuēi) and Bushati (Benko and Gjergj Bushati).

In the Ottoman defter of 1485 the settlement of Bytidosi is recorded in the nahiyah of Kuēi with a total of eleven households. The connection to the Delaj of Trieshi arises from the fact that among the heads of households recorded, a certain Vuk son of Deli is listed. The settlement itself may have also been located where modern Delaj is.

Are these the same Delaj in Gucia/Plave known as Deljanin?

Kelmendasi
06-01-2021, 12:44 PM
Are these the same Delaj in Gucia/Plave known as Deljanin?
Yes, they are the same.