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J Man
02-13-2015, 03:58 AM
This is an interesting project since Albania is located in Southeastern Europe which is a crossroads for many different groups throughout throughout the ages. It seems to focus on the paternal line/clan/tribal lineages of the Gheg Albanians from the north of the country and neighbouring countries such as Montenegro. The main Y-DNA haplogroups among Albanians seem to be E-V13, J2b, R1b, I2 and I1.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Abanian_DNA_Poject/default.aspx

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about

ADW_1981
02-13-2015, 04:27 AM
This is an interesting project since Albania is located in Southeastern Europe which is a crossroads for many different groups throughout throughout the ages. It seems to focus on the paternal line/clan/tribal lineages of the Gheg Albanians from the north of the country and neighbouring countries such as Montenegro. The main Y-DNA haplogroups among Albanians seem to be E-V13, J2b, R1b, I2 and I1.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Abanian_DNA_Poject/default.aspx

Of all the above, only the R1b-CTS9219 seems to tie back to the steppes though. It appears like the Greek and Anatolian have similar origins linking back to Ossetia, and an ancestor in Yamnaya. Plenty more Albanian samples are available at YHRD including the populous CTS9219 DYS385ab =11,11 haplotype. I'm not trying to tie everything back to Yamnaya as I realize several threads are ongoing, just pointing out the obvious

J Man
02-13-2015, 11:27 AM
It is also interesting to note that the Ghegs of northern Albania were one of the last if not the last people in Europe to preserve a tribal type of society. Here is a list of the Albanian tribes many of which have members in this project.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tribes_of_Albania

Cinnamon orange
02-22-2015, 07:34 AM
Interesting, I am of Arbereshe ancestry, which from what I have learned were of primarily Tosk Albanian descent. The male descent line in our family is J2b2. We have connections from DNA testing in Greece, Albania as well as Italy.

J Man
02-22-2015, 05:52 PM
Interesting, I am of Arbereshe ancestry, which from what I have learned were of primarily Tosk Albanian descent. The male descent line in our family is J2b2. We have connections from DNA testing in Greece, Albania as well as Italy.

The males of your family belonging to Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2 goes along quite well with your Arbereshe ancestry. :)

Trojet
04-06-2015, 01:12 AM
I am Albanian from Western Macedonia and tested as J2b2 on 23andme. I ordered a y-dna 37 marker test on ftdna, but that doesn't seem like it would get deeper into my haplogroup, besides just matching me with other J2b2. I have heard that ftdna is supposed to release a deep clade test for SNPs associated with certain haplogroups. Does anyone now when and how much it will cost...

J Man
04-06-2015, 03:09 AM
I am Albanian from Western Macedonia and tested as J2b2 on 23andme. I ordered a y-dna 37 marker test on ftdna, but that doesn't seem like it would get deeper into my haplogroup, besides just matching me with other J2b2. I have heard that ftdna is supposed to release a deep clade test for SNPs associated with certain haplogroups. Does anyone now when and how much it will cost...

The Big Y test is the best Y-DNA test at FTDNA as it tests a whole bunch of SNPs to narrow down your haplogroup considerably. It is quite expensive though at $525.00.

lgmayka
04-06-2015, 04:51 AM
I ordered a y-dna 37 marker test on ftdna, but that doesn't seem like it would get deeper into my haplogroup, besides just matching me with other J2b2. I have heard that ftdna is supposed to release a deep clade test for SNPs associated with certain haplogroups. Does anyone now when and how much it will cost...
1) If you have close matches at 37 markers who have already tested more deeply (e.g., the Big Y), you will have a good indication of your own deep classification.

2) Besides the expensive Big Y ($575, or $475 with a coupon), FTDNA is indeed slowly beginning to offer SNP Packs--usually at an introductory price of $99, but quickly going up to $119. I myself submitted a proposal for R1a-Z280 back in November, but have heard absolutely nothing since then. I don't know whether anyone even submitted a proposal for J-M241 (or its European subclade, J-L283 (http://yfull.com/tree/J-L283/)).

3) You could ask Yseq to compose a SNP test suite (http://www.yseq.net/index.php?cPath=25&osCsid=662bfa32a48ad391096b1edcf4e0367f) for J-L283.

eastara
04-08-2015, 12:42 AM
Most of the Albanian R1b-CTS9219 belong to the so called "Balkan cluster", with 393=13 and 385=11,11.
It is proven to have its own subbranch A1777/BY611/Y10789 different than "East European" and surprisingly it clusters with samples from Spain.
Regarding J2b2, a Bulgarian with Big Y (I suppose some Albanians should be close to him) proved to belong to J2b-Z584* Z638-
There are also several Albanians with Geno 2.0 J2b-Z1043

J Man
04-16-2015, 09:44 PM
This study of Albanian Y-chromsomes shows J2b to be more common overall among Ghegs compared to Tosks. E-V13 is the most common haplogroup among the Ghegs overall though and probably is among the Tosks as well. R1b is also rather common among both Albanian sub-groups while I (mainly I2a probably) seems to be more common overall among Tosks but of course is also present among Ghegs.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00414-010-0432-x

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html

vettor
04-17-2015, 07:17 AM
This study of Albanian Y-chromsomes shows J2b to be more common overall among Ghegs compared to Tosks. E-V13 is the most common haplogroup among the Ghegs overall though and probably is among the Tosks as well. R1b is also rather common among both Albanian sub-groups while I (mainly I2a probably) seems to be more common overall among Tosks but of course is also present among Ghegs.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00414-010-0432-x

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html

The Thracian 192-1 , from bronze-age was/has H1 ( ydna ) IIRC .........more evidence that the Albanians as per Roman scribes and surveyors where not around modern Albania until probably first mentioned by Romans in 150AD. The huge numbers 68% means a one off migration IMO ( especially since they where never recorded)

I can only see the indigenous pre- Bosnian populace has the major I2a ( ydna ) marker

Trojet
04-17-2015, 01:03 PM
The Thracian 192-1 , from bronze-age was/has H1 ( ydna ) IIRC .........more evidence that the Albanians as per Roman scribes and surveyors where not around modern Albania until probably first mentioned by Romans in 150AD. The huge numbers 68% means a one off migration IMO ( especially since they where never recorded)

I can only see the indigenous pre- Bosnian populace has the major I2a ( ydna ) marker

I don't think you can come to a conclusion with just one Thracian sample from the bronze age. Besides, Albanians are considered to be the southern Illyrian tribes and possibly some neighboring Thracian tribes to the west who didn't get romanized or later slavicized. Linguistical and archeological evidence so far suggests that Albanians lived in pretty much the same areas as they do now since before the Romans.

I2a-din is a bit of a question mark to me though. Some people suggest that it was picked up by Slavs and came down to the Balkans, while some say it was there before the arrival of Slavs. Considering that it is very low among Gheg Albanians and very high among neighboring Slavic populations seems to suggest to me that most of I2a-din came with the Slavs, but I could be wrong.

vettor
04-17-2015, 06:49 PM
I don't think you can come to a conclusion with just one Thracian sample from the bronze age. Besides, Albanians are considered to be the southern Illyrian tribes and possibly some neighboring Thracian tribes to the west who didn't get romanized or later slavicized. Linguistical and archeological evidence so far suggests that Albanians lived in pretty much the same areas as they do now since before the Romans.

I2a-din is a bit of a question mark to me though. Some people suggest that it was picked up by Slavs and came down to the Balkans, while some say it was there before the arrival of Slavs. Considering that it is very low among Gheg Albanians and very high among neighboring Slavic populations seems to suggest to me that most of I2a-din came with the Slavs, but I could be wrong.

I doubt very much Albanians were in modern Albania before the Romans noted them in 150AD. Because Roman surveyors scoured every metre of land of the Roman empire , every hill , valley and coast looking for minerals. Their roles where supported by scribes and tax collectors who noted what and who was in the areas visited.
Since Rome "owned" albania from roughly 196BC after wars with Philip V of Macedonia, we see no mention of Albanian in Romans letters, notes or books............the simple conclusion was that Albanians where not there.

In regards to DNA...the bulk of I2a sits in modern Bosnia, there is a small % in albania which matches the very few illyrian tribes that mixed with the local epirotes and Macedonians in modern Albania in the ancient times.

The great illyrian revolt of 9BC was fought in Bosnia and croatia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellum_Batonianum#/media/File:GreatIllyrianRevolt.jpg

After this massacre and deportation of 250000 illyrians , illyrians ceased to exist

Trojet
04-17-2015, 09:29 PM
I doubt very much Albanians were in modern Albania before the Romans noted them in 150AD. Because Roman surveyors scoured every metre of land of the Roman empire , every hill , valley and coast looking for minerals. Their roles where supported by scribes and tax collectors who noted what and who was in the areas visited.
Since Rome "owned" albania from roughly 196BC after wars with Philip V of Macedonia, we see no mention of Albanian in Romans letters, notes or books............the simple conclusion was that Albanians where not there.

In regards to DNA...the bulk of I2a sits in modern Bosnia, there is a small % in albania which matches the very few illyrian tribes that mixed with the local epirotes and Macedonians in modern Albania in the ancient times.

The great illyrian revolt of 9BC was fought in Bosnia and croatia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellum_Batonianum#/media/File:GreatIllyrianRevolt.jpg

After this massacre and deportation of 250000 illyrians , illyrians ceased to exist

Sorry buddy, but you seem to have your facts wrong :)
You can come to your own conclusions, but that doesn't mean you are right. The Romans didn't mention any Albanians because they were not called Albanians back then. As you know in present day Albania there were numerous Illyrian tribes living back then.

It was actually Ptolemy in 150 AD, not the Romans, who mentions a city called Albanopolis NE of modern day Durrės and the tribe of Albanoi (that's where Albanians got the name from later on BTW), who were viewed as Illyrians by historians.

And then you seem to suggest that Illyrians were exclusively I2a. As the facts suggest, there is no just one haplogroup of an ethnicity. Most likely the Illyrians living up north around present day Bosnia had some I2a, but later it was probably reinforced with the arrival of the Slavs, and the Illyrians living around present Albanian speaking areas had mainly E-V13, R1b-L23, and J2b.

The current three main Albanian haplogroups (E-V13, R1b-L23, and J2b) have been in the Balkans since at least the Bronze age, and are mainly concentrated in the southern Balkans, so this too seems to suggest that Albanians didn't all of the sudden drop from the sky to modern day Albania, Kosovo, NW Macedonia and other places at around 150 AD.

vettor
04-17-2015, 10:08 PM
Sorry buddy, but you seem to have your facts wrong :)
You can come to your own conclusions, but that doesn't mean you are right. The Romans didn't mention any Albanians because they were not called Albanians back then. As you know in present day Albania there were numerous Illyrian tribes living back then.

It was actually Ptolemy in 150 AD, not the Romans, who mentions a city called Albanopolis NE of modern day Durrės and the tribe of Albanoi (that's where Albanians got the name from later on BTW), who were viewed as Illyrians by historians.

And then you seem to suggest that Illyrians were exclusively I2a. As the facts suggest, there is no just one haplogroup of an ethnicity. Most likely the Illyrians living up north around present day Bosnia had some I2a, but later it was probably reinforced with the arrival of the Slavs, and the Illyrians living around present Albanian speaking areas had mainly E-V13, R1b-L23, and J2b.

The current three main Albanian haplogroups (E-V13, R1b-L23, and J2b) have been in the Balkans since at least the Bronze age, and are mainly concentrated in the southern Balkans, so this too seems to suggest that Albanians didn't all of the sudden drop from the sky to modern day Albania, Kosovo, NW Macedonia and other places at around 150 AD.

firstly we need to correct something...illyrians refer to a name similar in level to geographical area name , same as Scandinavia is.
then all the illyrians tribes had many kings, customs and dialects , they where not one race/ethnicity.

The oldest illyrians tribes are northern , east austria, slovenia, croatia and hungarian lands, they slowly migrated southwards of many centuries to be basically stopped around 400BC on the drin river by Alexander the great father, Philip ( this is recorded in historical notes ). True, some illyrian tribes escaping other illyrian tribes where allowed to settle in modern day Albania which at the time was owned and controlled by the Macedonians .... ..BTW the macedonians also annexed the 14 epirote tribes .

the only other people who ruled modern Albania after this was the Romans. After the fall of Rome , it was others that we need not discuss.

In regards to Indigenous "illyrian " markers ........IMO they where R1, I1 and G2 in majority, the I2a came via the cimmerians who fled to Pannonia around 700BC , the cimmerians escaped from southern ukraine as the sarmatians where entering this south ukraine area form the east.
IIRC, the other cimmerian migrational area was eastern Turkey ( cappodacia ), I think some russian testers has matched the I2a in current bosnia with I2a in Cappodacia
A scenario, IMO could be after the illyrian revolt of 9BC, the land made void by the Romans in modern Bosnia was replenished by these ex-cimmerians in pannonia who where celtinized dacians and others etc.

Ptolemy wrote his papers from Alexandria Egypt while under Roman rule

In regards to the markers you mentioned, they fit better in Thracian origins than Illyrian origins

Augustus
04-17-2015, 10:38 PM
The Balkans are a mixture of many different Y-Dnas. I wouldn't put much emphasis on the frequency of each sub-region, because they change rapidly in smaller patrilineal societies.

The I2a Cimmerian theory of Vettor is crazy though.

newtoboard
04-17-2015, 10:44 PM
firstly we need to correct something...illyrians refer to a name similar in level to geographical area name , same as Scandinavia is.
then all the illyrians tribes had many kings, customs and dialects , they where not one race/ethnicity.

The oldest illyrians tribes are northern , east austria, slovenia, croatia and hungarian lands, they slowly migrated southwards of many centuries to be basically stopped around 400BC on the drin river by Alexander the great father, Philip ( this is recorded in historical notes ). True, some illyrian tribes escaping other illyrian tribes where allowed to settle in modern day Albania which at the time was owned and controlled by the Macedonians .... ..BTW the macedonians also annexed the 14 epirote tribes .

the only other people who ruled modern Albania after this was the Romans. After the fall of Rome , it was others that we need not discuss.

In regards to Indigenous "illyrian " markers ........IMO they where R1, I1 and G2 in majority, the I2a came via the cimmerians who fled to Pannonia around 700BC , the cimmerians escaped from southern ukraine as the sarmatians where entering this south ukraine area form the east.
IIRC, the other cimmerian migrational area was eastern Turkey ( cappodacia ), I think some russian testers has matched the I2a in current bosnia with I2a in Cappodacia
A scenario, IMO could be after the illyrian revolt of 9BC, the land made void by the Romans in modern Bosnia was replenished by these ex-cimmerians in pannonia who where celtinized dacians and others etc.

Ptolemy wrote his papers from Alexandria Egypt while under Roman rule

In regards to the markers you mentioned, they fit better in Thracian origins than Illyrian origins

While Cimmerians might be associated with I2a (in some part) there is nothing to suggest that is the case. Without a single Cimmerian sample there is no way you can be as confident as you are. And the archeology of Cimmerian cultures in the steppe makes an association with R1b-L23, R1a-Z282 and R1a-Z93+ more likely than I2a.

J Man
04-17-2015, 11:02 PM
firstly we need to correct something...illyrians refer to a name similar in level to geographical area name , same as Scandinavia is.
then all the illyrians tribes had many kings, customs and dialects , they where not one race/ethnicity.

The oldest illyrians tribes are northern , east austria, slovenia, croatia and hungarian lands, they slowly migrated southwards of many centuries to be basically stopped around 400BC on the drin river by Alexander the great father, Philip ( this is recorded in historical notes ). True, some illyrian tribes escaping other illyrian tribes where allowed to settle in modern day Albania which at the time was owned and controlled by the Macedonians .... ..BTW the macedonians also annexed the 14 epirote tribes .

the only other people who ruled modern Albania after this was the Romans. After the fall of Rome , it was others that we need not discuss.

In regards to Indigenous "illyrian " markers ........IMO they where R1, I1 and G2 in majority, the I2a came via the cimmerians who fled to Pannonia around 700BC , the cimmerians escaped from southern ukraine as the sarmatians where entering this south ukraine area form the east.
IIRC, the other cimmerian migrational area was eastern Turkey ( cappodacia ), I think some russian testers has matched the I2a in current bosnia with I2a in Cappodacia
A scenario, IMO could be after the illyrian revolt of 9BC, the land made void by the Romans in modern Bosnia was replenished by these ex-cimmerians in pannonia who where celtinized dacians and others etc.

Ptolemy wrote his papers from Alexandria Egypt while under Roman rule

In regards to the markers you mentioned, they fit better in Thracian origins than Illyrian origins

The only way that we will ever know exactly which Y-DNA haplogroups the Illyrians carried are by testing ancient remains.

vettor
04-17-2015, 11:25 PM
While Cimmerians might be associated with I2a (in some part) there is nothing to suggest that is the case. Without a single Cimmerian sample there is no way you can be as confident as you are. And the archeology of Cimmerian cultures in the steppe makes an association with R1b-L23, R1a-Z282 and R1a-Z93+ more likely than I2a.

maybe you can give your version on how I2a got to modern bosnia

It is my opinion on how events occurred, clearly it is not associated with ancient slavic, because slavs where not mentioned anywhere pre the 7th century. The marker was clearly in the balkans before the 7th century.

Have my doubts on your opinions it was the R1's you mentioned , they timing is off for this

newtoboard
04-17-2015, 11:44 PM
maybe you can give your version on how I2a got to modern bosnia

It is my opinion on how events occurred, clearly it is not associated with ancient slavic, because slavs where not mentioned anywhere pre the 7th century. The marker was clearly in the balkans before the 7th century.

Have my doubts on your opinions it was the R1's you mentioned , they timing is off for this

Could be anything from Slavs to Goths to Illyrians to Celts to Thracians to Cimmerians/Scythians to just being a local marker before any of these modern groups. Personally I lean towards some combination of it being local and Slavic.

But we have no ADNA from the region so anything we throw out there is speculation. And it isn't even reasonable speculation because we know almost nothing about Cimmerians, their language, what their dna was like and they didn't survive so we can't base anything on modern popultion. And Cimmerians are so late in history that they probably had a mixed y gene pool that encompassed a lot of lineages from the steppe/forest steppe/Caucasus and Balkans. I really doubt any steppe group this late was dominated by one lineage especially a non R1 lineage.

Trojet
04-18-2015, 03:07 AM
Again, I don't deny that Albanians probably have some Thracian as I stated earlier (don't want to repeat the facts again). Historians conclude that Albanians are descendants of paleo Balkan populations, such as Illyrians, Thracians (who inhabited the area since the bronze age, and not 400 BC). Out of these two though the Albanian language is much closer to Illyrian based on what is known of Illyrian. And to say that the current main Albanian haplogroups belong to only Thracians is wrong (we don't even have any ancient dna). As I stated earlier, the three main Albanian haplogroups E-V13, R1b-L23, and J2b are mainly concentrated in the Southern Balkans (Greeks have them too) and everything suggests that they have been there since at least the Bronze age.

J Man
04-18-2015, 03:30 AM
Again, I don't deny that Albanians probably have some Thracian as I stated earlier (don't want to repeat the facts again). Historians conclude that Albanians are descendants of paleo Balkan populations, such as Illyrians, Thracians (who inhabited the area since the bronze age, and not 400 BC). Out of these two though the Albanian language is much closer to Illyrian based on what is known of Illyrian. And to say that the current main Albanian haplogroups belong to only Thracians is wrong (we don't even have any ancient dna). As I stated earlier, the three main Albanian haplogroups E-V13, R1b-L23, and J2b are mainly concentrated in the Southern Balkans (Greeks have them too) and everything suggests that they have been there since at least the Bronze age.

It is probably pretty much a guarantee that the majority of the ancestors of present day Albanian people have been in the Balkans since at least the Bronze Age.

vettor
04-18-2015, 04:01 AM
Again, I don't deny that Albanians probably have some Thracian as I stated earlier (don't want to repeat the facts again). Historians conclude that Albanians are descendants of paleo Balkan populations, such as Illyrians, Thracians (who inhabited the area since the bronze age, and not 400 BC). Out of these two though the Albanian language is much closer to Illyrian based on what is known of Illyrian. And to say that the current main Albanian haplogroups belong to only Thracians is wrong (we don't even have any ancient dna). As I stated earlier, the three main Albanian haplogroups E-V13, R1b-L23, and J2b are mainly concentrated in the Southern Balkans (Greeks have them too) and everything suggests that they have been there since at least the Bronze age.

Thanks

But I follow the bulgarian ,linguist professor ( I cannot remember his name ), who says the albanian non-borrowed words are similar to a group of people residing in the south carpi mountains, north of the ancient dacians. The migration happened when dacians and neighbours where fleeing from gothic invasions from the east and into the Roman empire.

but its my opinion of which known history by the ancients does not favour an illyrian people.

eastara
04-18-2015, 04:45 AM
The Thracian 192-1 , from bronze-age was/has H1 ( ydna ) IIRC .........more evidence that the Albanians as per Roman scribes and surveyors where not around modern Albania until probably first mentioned by Romans in 150AD. The huge numbers 68% means a one off migration IMO ( especially since they where never recorded)

I can only see the indigenous pre- Bosnian populace has the major I2a ( ydna ) marker

Sorry, but where have you seen that the Thracian 192-1 is H1 Y chr. haplogroup? As far as I know only mtDNA haplogroups are published. Maybe you mixed it up with mtDNA U3, which some people WRONGLY think was initially a Gypsy haplogroup.
Just check the ancient results, it was found for example in Neolithic bones from Hungary and Ukraine 5000BC.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ironagedna.shtml

vettor
04-18-2015, 04:54 AM
Sorry, but where have you seen that the Thracian 192-1 is H1 Y chr. haplogroup? As far as I know only mtDNA haplogroups are published. Maybe you mixed it up with mtDNA U3, which some people WRONGLY think was initially a Gypsy haplogroup.
Just check the ancient results, it was found for example in Neolithic bones from Hungary and Ukraine 5000BC.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ironagedna.shtml

genetiker

P192-1 ( ydna )
is

H1b1-Z14031

I think H1b ( ydna ) was the old f3 marker

and genetiker also stated the mtdna is
The calls confirm the published finding that P192-1 was U3b


from ncbi
The four Bulgarian teeth used in this study were obtained from four different excavations.

Sample P192-1 was found at the site of a pit sanctuary near Svilengrad, Bulgaria, excavated between 2004 and 2006.15 The pits are associated with the Thracian culture and date to the Early Iron Age (800–500 BC) based on pottery found in the pits. A total of 67 ritual pits, including 16 pits containing human skeletons or parts of skeletons, were explored during the excavations. An upper wisdom tooth from an adult male was used for DNA analysis.
15. Nekhrizov, G., and Tzvetkova, J. (2012). Ritual Pit Complexes in Iron Age Thrace: The Case Study of Svilengrad. In Anatolian Iron Ages 7 The Proceedings of the Seventh Anatolian Iron Ages Colloquium Held at Edirne, 19-24 April 2010. pp. 177–209.

I do not see what hungary and ukraine have to do with this bulgarian.............I do not know what you are talking about.

eastara
04-18-2015, 05:41 AM
Well, I thought you somehow imply Gypsies are ancient on the Balkan and that's why there are Gypsy haplogroups among Albanians.
H1b is NOT the Gypsy haplogroup, which is H1a-M82. Anyway, the Thracian samples had very low autosomal coverage, so they probably lack the SNPs which will define the real Y haplogroup.
Nevertheless, Albanians have more Roma introgression than other Balkan people. Haplogroup H1a is found at 1-2% among Bulgarians, Serbs, and even more among Romanians and Bulgarian Turks.
Reason is all Roma in the Ottoman Empire were Muslim and probably they mixed along that line with Albanians and Turks. However, Roma in Wallahia were Christians and they were kept as surfs by the Romanian boyars. When the serfdom was abolished those Vlach/Vlax Roma were free to migrate and now they are a big part of the Balkan and even European Roma.
Regarding I2a-Dinaric, it is not found in a single Arberesh, the Christian Albanians who took refuge from the Turks in Italy. It somehow suggests, if not proves it is not an inherent Albanian haplogroup.

Trojet
04-18-2015, 06:39 AM
Thanks

But I follow the bulgarian ,linguist professor ( I cannot remember his name ), who says the albanian non-borrowed words are similar to a group of people residing in the south carpi mountains, north of the ancient dacians. The migration happened when dacians and neighbours where fleeing from gothic invasions from the east and into the Roman empire.

but its my opinion of which known history by the ancients does not favour an illyrian people.

You are thinking of linguist Vladimir Georgiev who thinks Albanians might be Dacians and migrated south from present day Serbia (Again, you have the facts wrong about his theory too). Evidence doesn't support his theory either.

Trojet
04-18-2015, 06:47 AM
Well, I thought you somehow imply Gypsies are ancient on the Balkan and that's why there are Gypsy haplogroups among Albanians.
H1b is NOT the Gypsy haplogroup, which is H1a-M82. Anyway, the Thracian samples had very low autosomal coverage, so they probably lack the SNPs which will define the real Y haplogroup.
Nevertheless, Albanians have more Roma introgression than other Balkan people. Haplogroup H1a is found at 1-2% among Bulgarians, Serbs, and even more among Romanians and Bulgarian Turks.
Reason is all Roma in the Ottoman Empire were Muslim and probably they mixed along that line with Albanians and Turks. However, Roma in Wallahia were Christians and they were kept as surfs by the Romanian boyars. When the serfdom was abolished those Vlach/Vlax Roma were free to migrate and now they are a big part of the Balkan and even European Roma.
Regarding I2a-Dinaric, it is not found in a single Arberesh, the Christian Albanians who took refuge from the Turks in Italy. It somehow suggests, if not proves it is not an inherent Albanian haplogroup.

The ethnic Albanian population of Ghegs and Tosks, as this study shows, have very minimal 1-2% H1 Roma "Gypsy" haplogroup.

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html?m=1

J Man
04-30-2015, 02:56 AM
Most of the J2-M172 Albanians are by far J2b but it looks like on the Albanians DNA Project at FTDNA that one sample with origins in Kosovo is actually J2a. More precisely his haplogroup looks like it is most likely J2a1b-M67 based on his haplotype markers when I plug them into Whit Athey's haplogroup predictor. His kit # is 298800 Zerza from Kosovo.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Abanian_DNA_Poject?iframe=yresults

Trojet
06-02-2015, 07:10 PM
From my connections on 23andme, I see that Albanians score 100% European and at least 90% Balkan, while Tosk Albanians (southern) seem to score somewhat lower on Balkan ~80%.

vettor
06-02-2015, 07:28 PM
You are thinking of linguist Vladimir Georgiev who thinks Albanians might be Dacians and migrated south from present day Serbia (Again, you have the facts wrong about his theory too). Evidence doesn't support his theory either.

I find it strange, that Albaniian being a very old language was not noted by Greek or Roman historians , yet they noted every other balkan language, why is that?

Trojet
06-02-2015, 07:34 PM
I find it strange, that Albaniian being a very old language was not noted by Greek or Roman historians , yet they noted every other balkan language, why is that?

So you want to jump off topic and debate with me Albanian language huh :)
We have already been thru this and I see that you support every theory that somehow supports Albanians migrating to present areas. You clearly have a bias on this issue, and there is no fact that would change your mind. So in my opinion I shouldn't even waste my time :)

vettor
06-02-2015, 07:40 PM
So you want to jump off topic and debate with me Albanian language huh :)
We have already been thru this and I see that you support every theory that somehow supports Albanians migrating to present areas. You seem to have a bias on this issue, and there is no fact that would change your mind. So in my opinion I shouldn't even waste my time :)

there is no bias here, I am wanting to know about albanian language, the new zealanders linguists who did the linguistic side of haak paper, states an indi-iranian origin somewhere near the current borders of Pakistan, Afghanistan and India..........but the age of the language was only from 600 (BC?)

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/indi_zpsthphcfvd.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/indi_zpsthphcfvd.jpg.html)

Trojet
06-02-2015, 08:40 PM
there is no bias here, I am wanting to know about albanian language, the new zealanders linguists who did the linguistic side of haak paper, states an indi-iranian origin somewhere near the current borders of Pakistan, Afghanistan and India..........but the age of the language was only from 600 (BC?)

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/indi_zpsthphcfvd.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/indi_zpsthphcfvd.jpg.html)

OMG I couldn't stop laughing when I saw that pic. This is the bias I was talking about. One day you say we are Thracians, one day you say we are Dacians, one day you say we migrated from Pakistan/India border, tomorrow you might say we came from Mars, as long as it supports a theory of Albanians migrating to present areas and not being Illyrians. I have seen your posts on eupedia too (sile) on the Albanian threads there, so I'm not surprised by your ignorance of the facts.

This article is from the New York Times and it shows where and when the Indo-European languages originated. It is based on the Anatolian hypothesis, and it places the origin of Albanian language in exactly where presently Albanian is spoken, as well as other broader areas such as Apulia (Italy), since 5000 years before present.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/science/0824-origins.html?_r=0

Cinnamon orange
06-03-2015, 03:36 AM
I find it strange, that Albaniian being a very old language was not noted by Greek or Roman historians , yet they noted every other balkan language, why is that?

The term Albanian is fairly new, maybe that is why the Greeks and Romans did not say Albanian? There is no record of Albanian migration to the Balkans, the way there is of say Slavic migration to the Balkans. The reason for that is they are descended from people that have been there since Neolithic times. Probably besides Illyrians which are likely the base, there are some Thracian and Greek elements mixed in the population. As with many populations including modern Greeks, they are not of only one descent. Illyrian seems to be the likely main element. Albanians did not just fall out of the sky you know:)

Megalophias
06-03-2015, 05:20 AM
there is no bias here, I am wanting to know about albanian language, the new zealanders linguists who did the linguistic side of haak paper, states an indi-iranian origin somewhere near the current borders of Pakistan, Afghanistan and India..........but the age of the language was only from 600 (BC?)

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/indi_zpsthphcfvd.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/indi_zpsthphcfvd.jpg.html)

That tree is saying that (according to their theory) the current Albanian dialects diverged from one another 600 years ago, and that the ancestral form of Albanian split from Indo-Iranian 6500 years ago.

parasar
06-03-2015, 02:32 PM
The term Albanian is fairly new, maybe that is why the Greeks and Romans did not say Albanian? There is no record of Albanian migration to the Balkans, the way there is of say Slavic migration to the Balkans. The reason for that is they are descended from people that have been there since Neolithic times. Probably besides Illyrians which are likely the base, there are some Thracian and Greek elements mixed in the population. As with many populations including modern Greeks, they are not of only one descent. Illyrian seems to be the likely main element. Albanians did not just fall out of the sky you know:)

Actually the term Albani (Caucasus) is pretty old. http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/albania-iranian-aran-arm
Ptolemy mentions an Albani as well as an Albanopolis in the Balkans.

Whether this old Albani is connected to modern Albanians is another matter.

Tįltos
06-03-2015, 02:49 PM
Actually the term Albani (Caucasus) is pretty old. http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/albania-iranian-aran-arm
Ptolemy mentions an Albani as well as an Albanopolis in the Balkans.

Whether this old Albani is connected to modern Albanians is another matter.

Yep I have seen this, but correct it is questionable that this has anything to do with modern Albanians. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania

Trojet
06-03-2015, 03:12 PM
Yep I have seen this, but correct it is questionable that this has anything to do with modern Albanians. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania

It is proven by linguistic evidence as well as gennetics now that Caucasus Albania has nothing to do with modern Albanians. "Albania" as mentioned is an old I-E term, most likely meaning white mountains. There used to be other place names "Albania" in Iberia and Scotland, and there is a city in New York state called "Albany".

As far as Albanian connection to Illyrians, besides the Illyrian Albanoi tribe, to me this is one of the most conclusive evidence:
"Words borrowed from Latin in Albanian (e.g. Latin aurum > ar "gold", gaudium > gaz "joy" etc. date back before the Christian era, while the Illyrians on the territory of modern Albania were the first from the old Balkan populations to be conquered by Romans in 229–167 BC, the Thracians were conquered in 45 AD and the Dacians in 106 AD".

Cinnamon orange
06-03-2015, 03:44 PM
Actually the term Albani (Caucasus) is pretty old. http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/albania-iranian-aran-arm
Ptolemy mentions an Albani as well as an Albanopolis in the Balkans.

Whether this old Albani is connected to modern Albanians is another matter.

I was refering to using the term Albanian to describe modern day Albanians. If there was a tribe called the Albani, I do not see eveidence it was the term for the people as a whole. Albanian is modern.
Britain, I think was once called Albion, that does not connect to Albanians either....

The reason for my post was another users assertion that because the Greeks, Romans did not mention specifically a people called Albanians in the Balkans, ergo they did not exist there in that time period. Hence the Albanians are a more modern migrant group to the Balkans.

parasar
06-03-2015, 05:13 PM
I was refering to using the term Albanian to describe modern day Albanians. If there was a tribe called the Albani, I do not see eveidence it was the term for the people as a whole. Albanian is modern.
Britain, I think was once called Albion, that does not connect to Albanians either....

The reason for my post was another users assertion that because the Greeks, Romans did not mention specifically a people called Albanians in the Balkans, ergo they did not exist there in that time period. Hence the Albanians are a more modern migrant group to the Balkans.

Yes I understand, often names are coincidence, but we also know that sometimes widely separated names are not.
Coincidentally a Serbi on southern delta of the Volga are mentioned to the north of the Caucasus Albani.

So you think that Ptolemy's Albani is pure coincidence too?

http://www.operationworld.org/files/ow/maps/lgmap/alba-MMAP-md.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Albani150ADRomanEmpire.png

Trojet
06-03-2015, 05:24 PM
Yes I understand, often names are coincidence, but we also know that sometimes widely separated names are not.
Coincidentally a Serbi on southern delta of the Volga are mentioned to the north of the Caucasus Albani.

So you think that Ptolemy's Albani is pure coincidence too?

http://www.operationworld.org/files/ow/maps/lgmap/alba-MMAP-md.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Albani150ADRomanEmpire.png

In my opinion, as well as most historians, I do not think it is coincidental, rather one of the evidence that Albanians=Illyrians.

Cinnamon orange
06-03-2015, 05:48 PM
Yes I understand, often names are coincidence, but we also know that sometimes widely separated names are not.
Coincidentally a Serbi on southern delta of the Volga are mentioned to the north of the Caucasus Albani.

So you think that Ptolemy's Albani is pure coincidence too?

http://www.operationworld.org/files/ow/maps/lgmap/alba-MMAP-md.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Albani150ADRomanEmpire.png

Can you expand on ptolemys Albani please, I am too sleepy to look it up myself and assume you have information, so just share.

My point is and was that the Albanians have been present in the Balkans before the the Greeks and Romans began writing about the region. I do believe I mentioned that I would not be surprised if there was a related tribe called a similar name but an entire people I have not heard of prior.
I would not be surprised if the modern term Albanian (in a similar form but not exact) came from a tribe, branch etc of the Illyrians or related people's and the name sprung from that.

Maybe you can say what you would like to say rather than having me trawl Wikipedia?

Coincidences I did not say, similar names I did say. Similar does not always mean the same source, though I think many may relate to the word Alba, which I believe means white in Latin.

parasar
06-03-2015, 06:26 PM
Can you expand on ptolemys Albani please, I am too sleepy to look it up myself and assume you have information, so just share.
...

Claudius Ptolemy 90-168AD
Geography
Book 3, Chapter 13. It gives the coordinates (corresponding to modern Albania) of the people Albanoi and town Albanopolis.

The reference in Greek is here: https://archive.org/stream/bub_gb_4ksBAAAAMAAJ#page/n229/mode/1up

vettor
06-03-2015, 06:37 PM
I was refering to using the term Albanian to describe modern day Albanians. If there was a tribe called the Albani, I do not see eveidence it was the term for the people as a whole. Albanian is modern.
Britain, I think was once called Albion, that does not connect to Albanians either....

The reason for my post was another users assertion that because the Greeks, Romans did not mention specifically a people called Albanians in the Balkans, ergo they did not exist there in that time period. Hence the Albanians are a more modern migrant group to the Balkans.

Since Illyrians in majority of tribes lived in modern Bosnia and we can see this by the Illyrian revolt against Rome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellum_Batonianum

Where some say 150,000 slaughtered and 250,000 enslaved and relocated, what dregs of the remnants fled north, east and south into other parts of the balkans.
we see by the map, that only bosnia and croatia are the illyrian battlegrounds of this revolt.

and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bato_%28Daesitiate_chieftain%29
another map

IMO, i followed learned albanian scholars who state the Dardani are more Albanian than any other people from ancient times..........then again , it might be propaganda as Dardania is modern Kosovo, which seems the epicentre of albanians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani

Trojet
06-03-2015, 06:50 PM
Since Illyrians in majority of tribes lived in modern Bosnia and we can see this by the Illyrian revolt against Rome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellum_Batonianum

Where some say 150,000 slaughtered and 250,000 enslaved and relocated, what dregs of the remnants fled north, east and south into other parts of the balkans.
we see by the map, that only bosnia and croatia are the illyrian battlegrounds of this revolt.

and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bato_%28Daesitiate_chieftain%29
another map

IMO, i followed learned albanian scholars who state the Dardani are more Albanian than any other people from ancient times..........then again , it might be propaganda as Dardania is modern Kosovo, which seems the epicentre of albanians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani

So what is your point? We know there used to be Illyrian tribes living up north in modern day Bosnia too.

Are you going to give us another crazy theory about Albanians migrating to present areas, such as the one that they migrated from India/Pakistan border based on a Indo-European language tree that you couldn't even interpret right?

parasar
06-03-2015, 07:04 PM
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/general/ie-lg/Albanian.html

The exclusive surviving member of the "Balkan" clade is Albanian, a linguistic isolate among Indo-European languages ...

because these and certain other ancient languages of the Balkans are generally if not provably considered to be Indo-European and somehow related to one another, and because they were geographically clustered, they are grouped for convenient reference.

Albanian's Indo-European ancestry was first suggested in the 1850s, but was not fully established until the early 20th century: Albanian appears exotic against other Indo-European languages because it has suffered great lexical change from the reconstructed parent. The broken history of the Balkans sheds light on the near-total absence of PIE-inherited words and their replacement with loans from Greek, Latin, Slavic, and Turkish over the course of twenty-five centuries. The surviving PIE-inherited words, meanwhile, balance considerable phonological change with striking conservatism, such as the preservation of all three PIE tectal series before front vowels.
...
Among all major Indo-European families, Albanian has the latest first attestation: the language is first recorded in various 15th century AD marginalia ...

What is collectively called Albanian actually comprises two dialects, Gheg and Tosk, thought to have split from a common Albanian stock some 1500 years ago. Respecting their geography, the River Shkumbin serves as a rough latitudinal divide with Gheg to the north (widely spoken in Serbia and Montenegro, less in Albania and Macedonia) and Tosk to the south (primarily spoken in Albania, but also by diaspora populations in Greece and Turkey).

Trojet
06-03-2015, 07:22 PM
^ I do agree with most of the points that article makes, it should also be noted that modern Greek has suffered the same thing in comparison with ancient Greek as Albanian, especially when we are talking about a period of several millenia, languages evolve.

Here is a great point they make about the oldest languages in the world in the following article:

"In 3200 BC, there were many, many languages spoken besides Sumerian and Egyptian, but they weren't fortunate enough to have a writing system. These languages are just as old. To take one interesting case, the Albanian language (spoken north of Greece) was not written down until about the 15th century AD, yet Ptolemy mentions the people in the first century BC.* The linguistic and archaeological evidence suggests that Albanians were a distinct people for even longer than that. So Albanian has probably existed for several millennia, but has only been written down for 500 years. With a twist of fate, Albanian might be considered very "old" and Greek pretty "new". "
https://linguistlist.org/ask-ling/oldest.cfm

Tįltos
07-02-2015, 03:23 AM
New research paper out today on the Y-chromosome variability in Calabrian and Sicilian Arbereshe. I nearly missed this in the New DNA Papers thread! If anyone else missed it, or would like to discuss this would be a good thread to highlight it.

Stefania Sarno et al., 2015, European Journal of Human Genetics: Shared language, diverging genetic histories: high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variability in Calabrian and Sicilian Arbereshe
Abstract:
The relationship between genetic and linguistic diversification in human populations has been often explored to interpret some specific issues in human history. The Albanian-speaking minorities of Sicily and Southern Italy (Arbereshe) constitute an important portion of the ethnolinguistic variability of Italy. Their linguistic isolation from neighboring Italian populations and their documented migration history, make such minorities particularly effective for investigating the interplay between cultural, geographic and historical factors. Nevertheless, the extent of Arbereshe genetic relationships with the Balkan homeland and the Italian recipient populations has been only partially investigated. In the present study we address the genetic history of Arbereshe people by combining highly resolved analyses of Y-chromosome lineages and extensive computer simulations. A large set of slow- and fast-evolving molecular markers was typed in different Arbereshe communities from Sicily and Southern Italy (Calabria), as well as in both the putative Balkan source and Italian sink populations. Our results revealed that the considered Arbereshe groups, despite speaking closely related languages and sharing common cultural features, actually experienced diverging genetic histories. The estimated proportions of genetic admixture confirm the tight relationship of Calabrian Arbereshe with modern Albanian populations, in accordance with linguistic hypotheses. On the other hand, population stratification and/or an increased permeability of linguistic and geographic barriers may be hypothesized for Sicilian groups, to account for their partial similarity with Greek populations and their higher levels of local admixture. These processes ultimately resulted in the differential acquisition or preservation of specific paternal lineages by the present-day Arbereshe communities. http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg2015138a.html#aff1
5105

Cinnamon orange
07-02-2015, 04:51 PM
New research paper out today on the Y-chromosome variability in Calabrian and Sicilian Arbereshe. I nearly missed this in the New DNA Papers thread! If anyone else missed it, or would like to discuss this would be a good thread to highlight it.

Stefania Sarno et al., 2015, European Journal of Human Genetics: Shared language, diverging genetic histories: high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variability in Calabrian and Sicilian Arbereshe
Abstract: http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg2015138a.html#aff1
5105

Thanks!
I would like a MTDNA study also, as I have a feeling the first Arbereshe settlers in Calabria, to an extent mixed with local females, but further migration kept the cultural distinctness and language intact. Well I am basing that on the MENA my paternal half Arberesh side has:)

Tįltos
07-02-2015, 06:02 PM
Thanks!
I would like a MTDNA study also, as I have a feeling the first Arbereshe settlers in Calabria, to an extent mixed with local females, but further migration kept the cultural distinctness and language intact. Well I am basing that on the MENA my paternal half Arberesh side has:)

Hi! I would like to see more research into mtDNA of the Arbereshe as well. One of my Arberesh matches from our village of San Nicola dell'Alto carries mtDNA of M1a which is very intriguing. I am happy that we have this new study though. :)

alan
07-02-2015, 06:38 PM
Thanks!
I would like a MTDNA study also, as I have a feeling the first Arbereshe settlers in Calabria, to an extent mixed with local females, but further migration kept the cultural distinctness and language intact. Well I am basing that on the MENA my paternal half Arberesh side has:)

Concentrating on central, north, west and east Europe and not very knowledgeable about the southern fringes I am amazed at how little M269 derived there is in the southern end of Italy.

Cinnamon orange
07-02-2015, 06:54 PM
Hi! I would like to see more research into mtDNA of the Arbereshe as well. One of my Arberesh matches from our village of San Nicola dell'Alto carries mtDNA of M1a which is very intriguing. I am happy that we have this new study though. :)

Yes, that is interesting. I have not been able to find anything at least online in English that would give me an idea if North African/African ancestry in deep southern Italy is ancient or some more recent.
My direct Arbereshe maternal line, via a cousin (going back to my grandfathers sister, then my GGmother is X2.

Cinnamon orange
07-02-2015, 06:58 PM
Concentrating on central, north, west and east Europe and not very knowledgeable about the southern fringes I am amazed at how little M269 derived there is in the southern end of Italy.

The direct male line for my Arbereshe side is J2B2, which looks to be in the minority in the Arbereshe in Calabria.

ukaj
07-04-2015, 02:46 AM
I belive people need to read in about the tosk relations to arbreshe.Because in 14ctry gheg was spoken more around albania.I have seen the latest dna tests of arbreshe,gehgs,tosks,calabria,sicily,an i could not agree at all. the test results come as tosk albanian being more related to arbreshe Is this due to mixing with other people,an the gheg result show no relation.Now my imput,,halopgroup ev-13 is without a doubt higher in gheg albanians,,kosova albanian has the highest ev-13 than any other balkan people their result was 45.7%. macedonia ev-13 halopgroup was 33% both these places are gheg albanians,now the results i just seen said they have done tests in north albania.my question were they north albanians.reason i ask is the kosova albanians ALOT from tribe of krasniqi,gashi came from north albania krasniqi came from troopoja an gashi somewhere from their also.krasniqi is the biggest tribe in kosova followed by gashi..hear is the link i find it to funny,,i belive they need to test albanians from kelmendi an krasniqi because i know these people migrated to peja pec after leaving north albania an on myprofile picture you will see the high ev-13 in pec..http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg2015138a.html So how is it possiable for ghegs to have high percent ev-13 other than living isolated than of my brothers to the south,,It just doesnt make sence,Reason been the high percent of halopgroup E in greece.does this mean albanians migrated to greece before departing to italia mixing along the way im so confused. sorry for my spelling an an english i still only learn

ukaj
07-04-2015, 02:56 AM
Their is connection albani tribe an add a an you have albania ;)

Cinnamon orange
07-04-2015, 11:40 AM
I belive people need to read in about the tosk relations to arbreshe.Because in 14ctry gheg was spoken more around albania.I have seen the latest dna tests of arbreshe,gehgs,tosks,calabria,sicily,an i could not agree at all. the test results come as tosk albanian being more related to arbreshe Is this due to mixing with other people,an the gheg result show no relation.Now my imput,,halopgroup ev-13 is without a doubt higher in gheg albanians,,kosova albanian has the highest ev-13 than any other balkan people their result was 45.7%. macedonia ev-13 halopgroup was 33% both these places are gheg albanians,now the results i just seen said they have done tests in north albania.my question were they north albanians.reason i ask is the kosova albanians ALOT from tribe of krasniqi,gashi came from north albania krasniqi came from troopoja an gashi somewhere from their also.krasniqi is the biggest tribe in kosova followed by gashi..hear is the link i find it to funny,,i belive they need to test albanians from kelmendi an krasniqi because i know these people migrated to peja pec after leaving north albania an on myprofile picture you will see the high ev-13 in pec..http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg2015138a.html So how is it possiable for ghegs to have high percent ev-13 other than living isolated than of my brothers to the south,,It just doesnt make sence,Reason been the high percent of halopgroup E in greece.does this mean albanians migrated to greece before departing to italia mixing along the way im so confused. sorry for my spelling an an english i still only learn

Yes, some Arbereshe were in Greece before they went to Italy. I would not say all. Many were mercenaries for the Venetians and others in Greece, who encouraged their migration. Areas I know of with Albanian settlement were parts of the Peloponnesus, Attica and the environs of Corinth.
Many have since assimilated into Greeks, with the help of government policy over the years but some still have knowledge of their ancestry.
Of course what Greece was like in Y DNA before high migration of Albanians we do not know.

ukaj
07-05-2015, 01:29 AM
Yed i know arbreshe went to morea an arta before going to italia.Some may have settled their unsure..

Skerdilaidas
08-30-2015, 07:12 AM
The Thracian 192-1 , from bronze-age was/has H1 ( ydna ) IIRC .........more evidence that the Albanians as per Roman scribes and surveyors where not around modern Albania until probably first mentioned by Romans in 150AD. The huge numbers 68% means a one off migration IMO ( especially since they where never recorded)

I can only see the indigenous pre- Bosnian populace has the major I2a ( ydna ) marker

Has an Illyrian sample been found to belong to y-dna I2a, or this is just another hunch of yours? Also, auDNA is an indicator too, us being of paleo-Balkan stock - we cluster pretty nicely within the Balkans away from most south Slavs and closer to mainland Greeks. Hypothetically, if we recently decended down South, it would show autosomally too.

Generalissimo
08-30-2015, 07:38 AM
Has an Illyrian sample been found to belong to y-dna I2a, or this is just another hunch of yours? Also, aDNA is an indicator too, us being of paleo-Balkan stock - we cluster pretty nicely within the Balkans away from most south Slavs and closer to mainland Greeks. Hypothetically, if we recently decended down South, it would show autosomally too.

What is your definition of Paleo-Balkan, because there's a good chance that Albanians are going to turn out to be overwhelmingly of Late Neolithic Anatolian origin.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-30-2015, 09:54 AM
What is your definition of Paleo-Balkan, because there's a good chance that Albanians are going to turn out to be overwhelmingly of Late Neolithic Anatolian origin.

What do you mean by that ? Which Albanians - Bronze Age ?

alan
08-30-2015, 10:00 AM
What is your definition of Paleo-Balkan, because there's a good chance that Albanians are going to turn out to be overwhelmingly of Late Neolithic Anatolian origin.

Presumably though there will be at least some steppe genes given they have some Z2103, M269xL23 and a little R1a.

Generalissimo
08-30-2015, 10:06 AM
What do you mean by that ? Which Albanians - Bronze Age ?

Modern Albanians.


Presumably though there will be at least some steppe genes given they have some Z2103, M269xL23 and a little R1a.

Sure, they're a complex mixture like all Europeans, but I'm betting they'll turn out to be mostly the decedents of the last Neolithic waves into Europe (ie. Kumtepe guy and relatives).

Helgenes50
08-30-2015, 10:19 AM
Modern Albanians.



Sure, they're a complex mixture like all Europeans, but I'm betting they'll turn out to be mostly the decedents of the last Neolithic waves into Europe (ie. Kumtepe guy and relatives).


Do you think that these last Neolithic waves reached Western Europe or only South Eastern Europe ?

alan
08-30-2015, 10:24 AM
Modern Albanians.



Sure, they're a complex mixture like all Europeans, but I'm betting they'll turn out to be mostly the decedents of the last Neolithic waves into Europe (ie. Kumtepe guy and relatives).

Seems a safe bet that most of their genetics will be Neolithic Balkan given that 75-80% of their yDNA isnt R1.

alan
08-30-2015, 10:37 AM
I think that the ancient DNA from most visible burials 3000-2000BC will give a misleading impression of the speed of genetic change. I believe the burials likely to be tested will tend to be the elite incomers and the locals will tend to be relatively invisible. In reality I suspect that the spread of steppe genetics into the overall general populations was much more gradual and a top-down spread from the elite into the general population through preferential access to resources and wives. In many cases the impact in the end was not that giant. Some groups - the Celts in particular - seem to have almost been caste-like in rarely letting other male lines into their world.

Generalissimo
08-30-2015, 10:38 AM
Do you think that these last Neolithic waves reached Western Europe or only South Eastern Europe?

It's likely that one way or another they did make it to Western Europe. I guess we'll see what the story is when the Kumtepe paper comes out, which should be soonish.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-30-2015, 11:10 AM
I think that the ancient DNA from most visible burials 3000-2000BC will give a misleading impression of the speed of genetic change. I believe the burials likely to be tested will tend to be the elite incomers and the locals will tend to be relatively invisible. In reality I suspect that the spread of steppe genetics into the overall general populations was much more gradual and a top-down spread from the elite into the general population through preferential access to resources and wives. In many cases the impact in the end was not that giant. Some groups - the Celts in particular - seem to have almost been caste-like in rarely letting other male lines into their world.

For example, the Myceneans, and their imposition of Greek over a subservient, potentially different linguistic groups, was an elite affair. But where the 'proto-Greeks' came from is a matter to be discerned. The archaeological trail isn't too clear, certainly, there is no Bell Beaker or CWC phenomenon going on in southeastern Europe. An elite takeover from the steppe, or indeed anywhere, has to be proven rather than implicitly assumed

alan
08-30-2015, 11:19 AM
Albania of course was in the Cardial Neolithic zone so there may be a slightly different mix of y lines from other area of Europe. Cardial (or late farmers from the Cardial zone) seem to have more of a mix of y lines that LBK etc - with E1b1b, G2 and V88. Because Cardial was a sort of chain leap frog migration and there is no evidence of any follow up later Neolithic wave (pre-copper use), I think its OK to pool all the Cardial together (although also expect founder effects and extinction). In all probability any sample from the Adriatic coast to Portugal c. 5500-3500BC can safely be considered to be of Cardial descent (or incorporated hunters).

J2 could IMO have a link to later follow up waves who originated much more inland in SW Asia than the original farming waves to Europe - probably east Anatolia, Iran etc. One possible link could be the way there is very early copper working in Iran, Anatolia and the east Balkans. It is too much of a coincidence that this arose in a similar timescale in all three areas and an east Anatolian origin is probably most geographically plausible. So perhaps J2 late farmers in the east Anatolia developed copper working c. 5000BC and were then involved in the very earliest spread of copper working to the Balkans and Iran c. 5000BC and of course into the north Caucasus at a later date c. 4000BC. In all of those areas, the timing of the invention of copper working means the latter must have spread well after the first farmer waves into those areas and except at its origin point (I am guessing east Anatolia) probably does represent a later spread brought by small groups of other farmers with copper working skills.

It is even possible that small groups of J2 guys may have entered the steppes when the circumpontic metallurgical type metal tradition spread from the Caucasus into that area at some point c. 4000-3500BC - possibly indicated by Maykop interacting groups like Konstatinovka on the lower Don and Repin upstream.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-30-2015, 11:29 AM
Albania of course was in the Cardial Neolithic zone so there may be a slightly different mix of y lines from other area of Europe. Cardial (or late farmers from the Cardial zone) seem to have more of a mix of y lines that LBK etc - with E1b1b, G2 and V88. Because Cardial was a sort of chain leap frog migration and there is no evidence of any follow up later Neolithic wave (pre-copper use), I think its OK to pool all the Cardial together (although also expect founder effects and extinction). In all probability any sample from the Adriatic coast to Portugal c. 5500-3500BC can safely be considered to be of Cardial descent (or incorporated hunters).

J2 could IMO have a link to later follow up waves who originated much more inland in SW Asia than the original farming waves to Europe - probably east Anatolia, Iran etc. One possible link could be the way there is very early copper working in Iran, Anatolia and the east Balkans. It is too much of a coincidence that this arose in a similar timescale in all three areas and an east Anatolian origin is probably most geographically plausible. So perhaps J2 late farmers in the east Anatolia developed copper working c. 5000BC and were then involved in the very earliest spread of copper working to the Balkans and Iran c. 5000BC and of course into the north Caucasus at a later date c. 4000BC. In all of those areas, the timing of the invention of copper working means the latter must have spread well after the first farmer waves into those areas and except at its origin point (I am guessing east Anatolia) probably does represent a later spread brought by small groups of other farmers with copper working skills.

It is even possible that small groups of J2 guys may have entered the steppes when the circumpontic metallurgical type metal tradition spread from the Caucasus into that area at some point c. 4000-3500BC - possibly indicated by Maykop interacting groups like Konstatinovka on the lower Don and Repin upstream.

Alan, I think Copper was invented in Iran, not eastern Anatolia. Then from Iran, it develops instantaneously in the Balkans, Anatolia and Near East. Almost immediately after, it was the most advanced in the Balkans until the end of the Balkans Copper Age end c. 4200 BC. I agree that J2 was probably some late Neolithic spread.

alan
08-30-2015, 11:33 AM
For example, the Myceneans, and their imposition of Greek over a subservient, potentially different linguistic groups, was an elite affair. But where the 'proto-Greeks' came from is a matter to be discerned. The archaeological trail isn't too clear, certainly, there is no Bell Beaker or CWC phenomenon going on in southeastern Europe. An elite takeover from the steppe, or indeed anywhere, has to be proven rather than implicitly assumed

Its very common for takeovers by a small scale military elite from a relatively undeveloped society of a far more sophisticated zone to be barely archaeologically visible. This is basically because such invaders often desire to control and milk rather than destroy the more advanced culture they found and so they basically abandon most of their ancestral material culture and practices. I would suspect that many such elite replacements of very sophisticated societies from warlike but far more barbarous groups on the more fringes in places like Egypt, Mesopotamia, Anatolia etc would either be undetected or described as minor contacts from abroad by archaeologists if there was no written records or inscriptions to prove them. Something similar is probably the case in Greece so archaeologists are never going to be able to work it out unless they are incredibly lucky and chance upon some graves from the actual invasion. So, I wouldnt hold your breath waiting for archaeological proof of invasion - it may never come. The best bet is going to be testing early Mycenaean elite graves even though they probably date to some generations after the original invasion.

alan
08-30-2015, 11:37 AM
Alan, I think Copper was invented in Iran, not eastern Anatolia. Then from Iran, it develops instantaneously in the Balkans, Anatolia and Near East. Almost immediately after, it was the most advanced in the Balkans until the end of the Balkans Copper Age end c. 4200 BC. I agree that J2 was probably some late Neolithic spread.

It could have been Iran and had an essentially unidirectional spread at first. I wouldnt quibble over whether it was north Iran or east Anatolia but I do think that diffusion c. 5000BC was involved. I dont believe in the idea of coincidental sudden uptake of copper working in Iran and the Balkans c. 5000BC. There was almost certainly a spread of groups with prospecting skills involved and in all probability Anatolia was part of that route of spread as it lies between Iran and the Balkans. J2 seems a very good candidate for such a spread.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-30-2015, 11:49 AM
Its very common for takeovers by a small scale military elite from a relatively undeveloped society of a far more sophisticated zone to be barely archaeologically visible. This is basically because such invaders often desire to control and milk rather than destroy the more advanced culture they found and so they basically abandon most of their ancestral material culture and practices. I would suspect that many such elite replacements of very sophisticated societies from warlike but far more barbarous groups on the more fringes in places like Egypt, Mesopotamia, Anatolia etc would either be undetected or described as minor contacts from abroad by archaeologists if there was no written records or inscriptions to prove them. Something similar is probably the case in Greece so archaeologists are never going to be able to work it out unless they are incredibly lucky and chance upon some graves from the actual invasion. So, I wouldnt hold your breath waiting for archaeological proof of invasion - it may never come. The best bet is going to be testing early Mycenaean elite graves even though they probably date to some generations after the original invasion.

I acknowledge that what you say is commonly espoused, but it has to leave some kind of a mark. When new elites impose themselves, they adopt what's useful, but nevertheless leave some of distinction. Certainly the shaft graves are a mark, but they tell us those buried in them were elites, not necessarily where they came from. The Mycenean culture always looked very 'multinational', with no obvious smoking gun. In fact, archaeologists have long debated when the Greeks even came, and have always tossed between the steppe and Anatolia.

I guess Z2103 is what most people are going to be looking for sometime in the Bronze Age.

alan
08-30-2015, 11:53 AM
Another thing is there is a paradox in that it is often easier to take over a sophisticated centralised society than a more chaotic one full of independent clans. History shows this. In fact successful elite replacement means you just decapitate the elite, replace them and take over the existing machinery of the society. The advantage, at least initially, of this is that the invading army who may have been farmers or herders in their own lands can form a new elite and live parasitically off the backs of the locals taxing them etc - kind of like the Visigoths did in Spain. This kind of set up has an unpredictible effect in terms of the new language. You can have little long term impact (i.e. the Germanic elites across much of the former Roman empire), you can have a massive effect on a language but not replace it (Norman French influence on English) or you can impose your language as in Turkey, Bulgaria etc. In the case of the Greeks they seem to have been successful in imposing their language.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-30-2015, 12:06 PM
Another thing is there is a paradox in that it is often easier to take over a sophisticated centralised society than a more chaotic one full of independent clans. History shows this. In fact successful elite replacement means you just decapitate the elite, replace them and take over the existing machinery of the society. The advantage, at least initially, of this is that the invading army who may have been farmers or herders in their own lands can form a new elite and live parasitically off the backs of the locals taxing them etc - kind of like the Visigoths did in Spain. This kind of set up has an unpredictible effect in terms of the new language. You can have little long term impact (i.e. the Germanic elites across much of the former Roman empire), you can have a massive effect on a language but not replace it (Norman French influence on English) or you can impose your language as in Turkey, Bulgaria etc. In the case of the Greeks they seem to have been successful in imposing their language.

Absolutely. I guess you can have clues depending on the situation. The Germanic elite in Italy or Spain were themselves small, dispersed to key forts, and otherwise entering a sophisticated system which they wanted to continue, preserve but reap benefits from. Not only had they to contend with other Germanic groups, but with local aristocrats who weren't altogether push-overs. The Greek takeover was more economic and cultural than demographic, apart from the of Alexander which was military, and not really 'Greek'. The Normans invaded an England which was less developed than, say Roman Spain. Moreover their aim was to remain a consolidated block based mostly from the south of England. Their relative insularity and cultural arrogance (perhaps wrong word) thus necessarily influenced English morpho-syntactically and in cultural load words. Finally, the Osmans settled as entire clans centred on every individual area of Anatolia (beyliks), a region culturally and lingusticially diverse, and somewhat rundown after centuries of fighting between Greeks, Persians, Arabs, Mongols, Seljuks, etc.

Im not sure which model works for Greece, if we can even find out. But I certainly I do think it didn't occur too much before 2500 BC.

[NB The Case of Ottoman Turkey almost reminds me of what you guys think about BB in Europe]

alan
08-30-2015, 12:21 PM
I acknowledge that what you say is commonly espoused, but it has to leave some kind of a mark. When new elites impose themselves, they adopt what's useful, but nevertheless leave some of distinction. Certainly the shaft graves are a mark, but they tell us those buried in them were elites, not necessarily where they came from. The Mycenean culture always looked very 'multinational', with no obvious smoking gun. In fact, archaeologists have long debated when the Greeks even came, and have always tossed between the steppe and Anatolia.

I guess Z2103 is what most people are going to be looking for sometime in the Bronze Age.

Yep their should be a genetic signal. The only way that Mycenian Greeks will not be R1 dominated is if they already has spent a very long time in a non-R1 sort of area. As many suspect the Greek speakers are relatively late in arriving in Greece then they could have had a long period in what had been Old Europe or Anatolia before reaching Greece. If Greek was both a centum language AND also a late arrival in Greece around 2000BC then that must be telling us something about where Greek was located before it entered Greece. I am just not sure what!!! It certainly would imply that wherever Greek was was outside the satemisation zone as late as 2000BC. Which does in turn tell us something about satemisation. There have been vague suggestions that the Greeks have some ancestral links via an unknown intermediate phase with Catacomb which probably is mainly c. 2700-2200BC.

J Man
08-30-2015, 12:32 PM
What is your definition of Paleo-Balkan, because there's a good chance that Albanians are going to turn out to be overwhelmingly of Late Neolithic Anatolian origin.

I agree with this pretty much 100%. Albanians are mainly of Late Neolithic Anatolian origin with smaller amounts of Mesolithic Balkan and IE/Yamna ancestry.

alan
08-30-2015, 12:45 PM
It's likely that one way or another they did make it to Western Europe. I guess we'll see what the story is when the Kumtepe paper comes out, which should be soonish.

If the spread of dairying actually had a genetic component then it spread first from NW Anatolia into the west shores of the Black Sea around 5000BC or a little before (interestingly roughly at the same time copper working appeared in the Balkans- although they may not have been a single event) and pastoralism spread into the north-central European successors of LBK like Lengyel and in doing so was already part of the farming package by the time farming spread into the northern seaboard of Europe including the isles c. 4000BC. So it is possible there was some secondary geneflow into Europe that spread throughout after the first waves of farming. This post-dates the earlier Balkans, Cardial and LBK period so samples in Balkans or central European Neolithic spread over 6000-4500BC should in theory be able to pick up any new incomers who added to the original Neolithic waves via pastoralism or (in the case of the Balkans) copper.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-30-2015, 12:50 PM
I agree with this pretty much 100%. Albanians are mainly of Late Neolithic Anatolian origin with smaller amounts of Mesolithic Balkan and IE/Yamna ancestry.

I don't see how this is correct, neither genetically nor historically. Albanians don't cluster with Sardinians, but with mainland greeks and some Italians . They've seen a fair share of admixture since the neolithic

Edit: I see- the emphasis on Late Neolithic, might be more true. But either way, they've still seen significant post- Neolithic admixture (~20% at least)

alan
08-30-2015, 12:53 PM
Absolutely. I guess you can have clues depending on the situation. The Germanic elite in Italy or Spain were themselves small, dispersed to key forts, and otherwise entering a sophisticated system which they wanted to continue, preserve but reap benefits from. Not only had they to contend with other Germanic groups, but with local aristocrats who weren't altogether push-overs. The Greek takeover was more economic and cultural than demographic, apart from the of Alexander which was military, and not really 'Greek'. The Normans invaded an England which was less developed than, say Roman Spain. Moreover their aim was to remain a consolidated block based mostly from the south of England. Their relative insularity and cultural arrogance (perhaps wrong word) thus necessarily influenced English morpho-syntactically and in cultural load words. Finally, the Osmans settled as entire clans centred on every individual area of Anatolia (beyliks), a region culturally and lingusticially diverse, and somewhat rundown after centuries of fighting between Greeks, Persians, Arabs, Mongols, Seljuks, etc.

Im not sure which model works for Greece, if we can even find out. But I certainly I do think it didn't occur too much before 2500 BC.

[NB The Case of Ottoman Turkey almost reminds me of what you guys think about BB in Europe]

Yeah my lecturer in Medieval history said the Normans were a really horrific thuggish group, basically a protection racket, reduced the free farmers to peasants, squeezed them into deeper poverty, destroyed the more socially fluid and liberal Anglo-Saxon society and introduced a steep class system. Their impressive architectural achievements tend to blind people to their barbaric nature. Most of the more sophisticated machinery of government was taken over from the Anglo-Saxons as they didnt have it back in Normandy. They were like some kind of conquest cult and a very ruthless machine. The scary thing is a significant chunk of the landed gentry of England still descend from the 1066 army albeit a chunk has been replaced since. They mocked people who put their freedom above all else - see Norman writer Gerald of Wales who says talks about the love of freedom of the native Irish as if it was a bad thing.

alan
08-30-2015, 01:18 PM
It's likely that one way or another they did make it to Western Europe. I guess we'll see what the story is when the Kumtepe paper comes out, which should be soonish.

hey David - I noticed your Eurogenes post on the divine twins and horse associations. I just wanted to say this motive appears in Celtic mythology in the twins of Macha

Wiki
When he went to a festival organised by the king of Ulster, she warned him that she would only stay with him so long as he did not mention her to anyone, and he promised to say nothing. However, during a chariot race, he boasted that his wife could run faster than the king's horses. The king heard, and demanded she be brought to put her husband's boast to the test. Despite being heavily pregnant, she raced the horses and beat them, giving birth to twins on the finish line. Thereafter the capital of Ulster was called Emain Macha, or "Macha's twins" (in spite of the conflicting story according to which Emain Macha was named after "Macha's neck brooch"). She cursed the men of Ulster to suffer her labour pains in the hour of their greatest need, which is why none of the Ulstermen but the semi-divine hero Cśchulainn were able to fight in the Tįin Bó Cuailnge (Cattle Raid of Cooley).[16] This Macha is particularly associated with horses—it is perhaps significant that twin colts were born on the same day as Cśchulainn, and that one of his chariot-horses was called Liath Macha or "Macha's Grey"—and she is often compared with the Welsh mythological figure Rhiannon.

Rhiannon may be a reflex of an earlier Celtic deity. Her name appears to derive from the reconstructed Brittonic form *Rīgantōna, a derivative of *rīgan- "queen". In the First Branch Rhiannon is strongly associated with horses, and so is her son Pryderi. She is often considered to be related to the Gaulish horse goddess Epona.[1][2] The resemblance is her horse affinity, and her son's, as mare and foal; also a paradoxical way of sitting on her horse in a calm, static way, like a key image of Epona.

J Man
08-30-2015, 02:00 PM
I don't see how this is correct, neither genetically nor historically. Albanians don't cluster with Sardinians, but with mainland greeks and some Italians . They've seen a fair share of admixture since the neolithic

Edit: I see- the emphasis on Late Neolithic, might be more true. But either way, they've still seen significant post- Neolithic admixture (~20% at least)

Add in later movements from Anatolia/West Asia as well.

Trojet
08-30-2015, 02:07 PM
What is your definition of Paleo-Balkan, because there's a good chance that Albanians are going to turn out to be overwhelmingly of Late Neolithic Anatolian origin.

Paleo-Balkan is usually referred to pre-Roman times Balkan populations. Early or Late Neolithic is still TBD, we don't even have any ancient Y-DNA from the southern Balkans yet.


So perhaps J2 late farmers in the east Anatolia developed copper working c. 5000BC and were then involved in the very earliest spread of copper working to the Balkans and Iran c. 5000BC

I guess you mean J2b2-L283 since Albanian J2 is overwhelmingly J2b2-L283 (European), which is almost non-existent in Anatolia. IMO, J2a and J2b entered Balkans in different times/waves.

Skerdilaidas
08-30-2015, 02:31 PM
What is your definition of Paleo-Balkan, because there's a good chance that Albanians are going to turn out to be overwhelmingly of Late Neolithic Anatolian origin.

Meaning Iron Age Illyrian, Western Thracian and perhaps to some extent Northern Greek/Dorian. Can you elaborate a bit more, what do you mean by "Late Neolithic Anatolian Origin"? Autosomally we couldn't be, we are more of a complex mix. Going by y-dna, E-V13 and R1b makes up more the 50% of our y-dna, nationally, but in Ghegs close to 70%, and neither of them are considered late neolithic anatolian signature. Neither is J2b found among us for that matter. If such were the case, we would certainly have a decent % of J2a and G.

Skerdilaidas
08-30-2015, 05:47 PM
Modern Albanians.



Sure, they're a complex mixture like all Europeans, but I'm betting they'll turn out to be mostly the decedents of the last Neolithic waves into Europe (ie. Kumtepe guy and relatives).

Modern Albanians cluster nowhere near Near East and Caucasus populations autosomally which the kumtepe fella seems to resembles the most in today's populations. Do you actually know where we cluster autosomally?

Skerdilaidas
08-30-2015, 05:53 PM
Hey bro, can you post the new ftdna link for our project because the opening thread seems to have the outdated one?

Trojet
08-30-2015, 06:11 PM
Hey bro, can you post the new ftdna link for our project because the opening thread seems to have the outdated one?

Good catch. This is the official project for all Albanians at FTDNA:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about

If any mods can update the link with this one at the beginning of the thread, please do so, as the previous project at FTDNA is outdated and missing info relevant to this thread.

Generalissimo
08-30-2015, 09:53 PM
Modern Albanians cluster nowhere near Near East and Caucasus populations autosomally which the kumtepe fella seems to resembles the most in today's populations. Do you actually know where we cluster autosomally?

On a PCA Kumtepe is more distant from the Near East/Caucasus than modern Albanians are.

J Man
08-30-2015, 10:18 PM
Good catch. This is the official project for all Albanians at FTDNA:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about

If any mods can update the link with this one at the beginning of the thread, please do so, as the previous project at FTDNA is outdated and missing info relevant to this thread.

Thanks for the updated link. The project results do seem to have changed a bit.

Skerdilaidas
08-31-2015, 12:02 AM
On a PCA Kumtepe is more distant from the Near East/Caucasus than modern Albanians are.
That is not what I read. Anyway, can you post the pca plot?

Generalissimo
08-31-2015, 12:20 AM
That is not what read. Anyway, can you post the pca plot?

I can't, because I don't have it, but it should be out soon.

Neolithic Anatolians were less Near Eastern than some present-day southern Europeans. The present-day genetic structure that we see in West Eurasia today is very recent.

Trojet
08-31-2015, 12:22 AM
On a PCA Kumtepe is more distant from the Near East/Caucasus than modern Albanians are.
Albanians cluster close to northern Greeks, Italians and not close to Near East/Caucuses populations. Also our main Y-DNA haplogroups are different from Near East/Caucasus populations. We have almost no J2a, G2a, or J1 either, which are found at high percentages in the Near East/Caucuses populations. At some point in the past most if not all the European haplogroups passed thru the Near East if that's what you're basing this on.

Skerdilaidas
08-31-2015, 12:34 AM
I can't, because I don't have it, but it should be out soon.

Neolithic Anatolians were less Near Eastern than some present-day southern Europeans. The present-day genetic structure that we see in West Eurasia today is very recent.

At Eurogenes blog I read that the sample from Kumtepe shows similarities to the gene pool of the early European farmers, but not only that, also components that are found in the modern populations of Near East and Caucasus. You would think they wouldn't miss mentioning it if such were the case?

Artmar
08-31-2015, 10:44 PM
Good catch. This is the official project for all Albanians at FTDNA:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about


I serve with help in case when any R1a(R-M512) comes up. It's the matter of time and samples :)

Trojet
08-31-2015, 11:33 PM
I serve with help in case when any R1a(R-M512) comes up. It's the matter of time and samples :)

R1a is quite low among Albanians on average 3-4% according to some studies as you probably know. We don't have any R1a samples yet, but I'm sure we will come up with a few samples if we have a large enough number of people tested. Either way, thanks, and we will let you know in case we need help with that :)

J Man
09-01-2015, 04:14 PM
It is interesting to note that 3 of the 6 J2b Albanians in this project so far come from Montenegro and also that two of them seem to come from the Hoti tribe.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/results

vettor
09-01-2015, 06:49 PM
I can't, because I don't have it, but it should be out soon.

Neolithic Anatolians were less Near Eastern than some present-day southern Europeans. The present-day genetic structure that we see in West Eurasia today is very recent.

would then the Dardanians of Anatolia be the same people as the Dardanians of modern Kosovo? ..........in ancient times

vettor
09-01-2015, 06:57 PM
It is interesting to note that 3 of the 6 J2b Albanians in this project so far come from Montenegro and also that two of them seem to come from the Hoti tribe.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/results

interesting

The Mirabal and Varljen papers have the following averages for montenegro:

I2a ----- 29.70%
E1b1b -- 26.98%
R1b ----- 9.41%
R1a ----- 7.67%
I1 ------- 6.19%
J2a ----- 4.70%
J2b ----- 4.46%
G2a ----- 2.48%
Q1b ----- 1.98%
I2b ----- 1.73%
H ------- 1.49%
N ------- 1.49%
L ------- 1.24%
J1 ------ 0.50%

Skerdilaidas
09-01-2015, 07:56 PM
It is interesting to note that 3 of the 6 J2b Albanians in this project so far come from Montenegro and also that two of them seem to come from the Hoti tribe.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/results

Indeed. Both Gojcaj and Gjelaj are of the new Hoti - Traboini, which came to North Albania from Herzegovina. Hoti has two major branches: the Herzegovina arrivals and the indegenius that are called Anas Hoti. Same thing with Gruda, there are two main branches: The Berisha and the Herzegovinian migrants. Majority of Gruda are Vuksan Gjel (Dielli) Gruda descendants that emigrated to North Albania (their current location in Montenegro) from Herzegovina. They are E-V13 and J2b2.

ADW_1981
09-01-2015, 08:28 PM
What does the suffix "aj" mean for Albanians? I work with one.

Trojet
09-01-2015, 10:53 PM
What does the suffix "aj" mean for Albanians? I work with one.

Good question! Here is a great explanation:

-aj (Albanian) “he, him" Last name denotes first name of direct ancestor. Descendants of a man named Prenk, would be given last name Prenkaj, meaning he is from Prenk. Generally the last name removing the “aj” suffix is the name of the originator of the family before last names were used dating 300 years back or older.

ukaj
09-15-2015, 11:08 PM
I am from hoti they came from herzgovinia highlands because the slavs an turks were at war an pushed hoti downwards into other albanian area.yes you are right ev-13 is high in them,In kosova the albanians of peja come from hoti whom now are muslim they are from krasnichi tribe they are very high in ev-13 also.The new hoti lmao. i never heard of new hoti.their is no diffrence to albanians from hezgovinia than to any other albanians.Take for this the krasniqi fis has the highest ev-13 among all albanian tribes it makes half half population of kosova..

Illyro-Vlach
09-16-2015, 02:20 AM
Do you have any sources available that detail the migration of Albanian tribes from Herzegovina into Montenegro/Northern Albania? I would greatly appreciate reading it.

Skerdilaidas
09-19-2015, 10:04 PM
Do you have any sources available that detail the migration of Albanian tribes from Herzegovina into Montenegro/Northern Albania? I would greatly appreciate reading it.

Their oral traditions that have been passed down generation after generation and recorded by the likes of Nopca and other travellers during the last century are the only sources.

ukaj
10-26-2015, 06:32 AM
Do you have any sources available that detail the migration of Albanian tribes from Herzegovina into Montenegro/Northern Albania? I would greatly appreciate reading it.Their is alot of info vlla about this.just search northen tribes.Im hoti an kelmendi both north.Montenegro we call mal i zi is old thraco- illyrian.Their were many albanians assimulated by the serbian orthodox church,vaschechi tribe were assimulated in montenegro many speak slavnic now.But their is also vaschechi still in shkodra whom speak albanian..It was a big mess in thoses times so much assimulation.But one thing i have seen is still the lahuta is played by these assimulated albanians in montenegro they still use the old lahuta.they call it gusle but the old slavnic gusle was 3 string instrument so it is very much from the old catholics of vaschechi

ukaj
10-26-2015, 06:38 AM
Good question! Here is a great explanation:I have always wondered about aj vlla.Makes so much sense,camaj would have been cama,lamaj lam,demaj would have been dem wow dem is very old name in albanian proto albanian infact i must search more of this very interesting is this what you mean?And thank you very good

Illyro-Vlach
10-26-2015, 03:03 PM
Their is alot of info vlla about this.just search northen tribes.Im hoti an kelmendi both north.Montenegro we call mal i zi is old thraco- illyrian.Their were many albanians assimulated by the serbian orthodox church,vaschechi tribe were assimulated in montenegro many speak slavnic now.But their is also vaschechi still in shkodra whom speak albanian..It was a big mess in thoses times so much assimulation.But one thing i have seen is still the lahuta is played by these assimulated albanians in montenegro they still use the old lahuta.they call it gusle but the old slavnic gusle was 3 string instrument so it is very much from the old catholics of vaschechi

Yes, but I'm asking for good sources and not a bunch of geocities/wiki pages. I know about the claim that the Vasojevici were originally Albanian but I'd like to see more about this and about this supposed migration of Albanians from Hercegovina southwards.

Is the Hercegovina mentioned present-day Hercegovina or Stara Hercegovina aka Northern Montenegro?

J Man
10-26-2015, 03:24 PM
Their is alot of info vlla about this.just search northen tribes.Im hoti an kelmendi both north.Montenegro we call mal i zi is old thraco- illyrian.Their were many albanians assimulated by the serbian orthodox church,vaschechi tribe were assimulated in montenegro many speak slavnic now.But their is also vaschechi still in shkodra whom speak albanian..It was a big mess in thoses times so much assimulation.But one thing i have seen is still the lahuta is played by these assimulated albanians in montenegro they still use the old lahuta.they call it gusle but the old slavnic gusle was 3 string instrument so it is very much from the old catholics of vaschechi

Do you descend from Hoti through your direct paternal line? In the Albanian Bloodlines Project at FTDNA I still see only two Hoti results and both of them are J2b J-M241.

3 Hoti-Gojcaj Brotherhood J2b J-M241
Montenegro (Traboini, Hoti Tribal Territory)


4 Hoti-Gjelaj Brotherhood J2b J-M241
Montenegro (Traboini, Hoti Tribal Territory)



https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/results

Trojet
10-26-2015, 03:38 PM
Do you descend from Hoti through your direct paternal line? In the Albanian Bloodlines Project at FTDNA I still see only two Hoti results and both of them are J2b J-M241.

3 Hoti-Gojcaj Brotherhood J2b J-M241
Montenegro (Traboini, Hoti Tribal Territory)


4 Hoti-Gjelaj Brotherhood J2b J-M241
Montenegro (Traboini, Hoti Tribal Territory)



https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/results

Yes, I noticed that too. I know he prefers E-V13 :P but from the Hoti examples we have, he could very well be J2b2-M241.

ukaj
10-26-2015, 03:41 PM
Do you descend from Hoti through your direct paternal line? In the Albanian Bloodlines Project at FTDNA I still see only two Hoti results and both of them are J2b J-M241.

3 Hoti-Gojcaj Brotherhood J2b J-M241
Montenegro (Traboini, Hoti Tribal Territory)


4 Hoti-Gjelaj Brotherhood J2b J-M241
Montenegro (Traboini, Hoti Tribal Territory)



https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/resultsI have not been tested but my father has he is possitive for ev-13 so im guessing im same as him.My mother is kelmendi not sure her genetics..Thats interesting link,The krasniqi tribe hails from hoti it broke from hoti when they became muslim an migrated to kosova where other albanians lived. they settled in peja the krasniqi came from tropoja area,,.hmmm,Hoti is also in tropoja area an kosova.

Trojet
10-26-2015, 03:47 PM
I have not been tested but my father has he is possitive for ev-13 so im guessing im same as him.My mother is kelmendi not sure her genetics..An j man do you know much about genetic of krasniqi they were once hoti,,I want to see how much if their is any difference.I know kransiqi tribe came from north albania long time ago an from area of tropoja

In our project, we have two Krasniqi's from Kosova who are J2b2 and one E-V13. And two Hoti's who are J2b2. But we need one of the Krasniqi J2b2 to get some STRs and see if he matches the Hoti example, that way we can prove the theory of them of common descent.

J Man
10-26-2015, 03:48 PM
I have not been tested but my father has he is possitive for ev-13 so im guessing im same as him.My mother is kelmendi not sure her genetics..Thats interesting link,The krasniqi tribe hails from hoti it broke from hoti when they became muslim an migrated to kosova where other albanians lived. they settled in peja the krasniqi came from tropoja area,,.hmmm,Hoti is also in tropoja area an kosova.

So your father comes from the Hoti tribe/clan? And yes you have the exact same Y-DNA as your biological father.

ukaj
10-26-2015, 03:49 PM
Yes, I noticed that too. I know he prefers E-V13 :P but from the Hoti examples we have, he could very well be J2b2-M241.I dont know what mean prefer for me bro i dont care what i am i know im albanian,But my father is ev-13 m-74 or 35 cant remember..

ukaj
10-26-2015, 03:50 PM
yes father hoti but from krasniqi fis..

ukaj
10-26-2015, 04:02 PM
Yes, but I'm asking for good sources and not a bunch of geocities/wiki pages. I know about the claim that the Vasojevici were originally Albanian but I'd like to see more about this and about this supposed migration of Albanians from Hercegovina southwards.

Is the Hercegovina mentioned present-day Hercegovina or Stara Hercegovina aka Northern Montenegro?Im not sure how to help then.But my family been telling this story for long time how our ancestors came from herzgovinia highlands but migrated downwards to escape the slvnics.

Trojet
10-26-2015, 04:07 PM
I dont know what mean prefer for me bro i dont care what i am i know im albanian,But my father is ev-13 m-74 or 35 cant remember..

It's all good. I was just going by the examples we have thus far from 2 Hoti members and 2 Krasniqi members who are J2b2's, while one Krasniqi is E-V13. We didn't know you have tested, or your dad in this case. That means we have a new Krasniqi member who is E-V13, unless you're the same E-V13 Krasniqi we already have?

ukaj
10-26-2015, 04:08 PM
In our project, we have two Krasniqi's from Kosova who are J2b2 and one E-V13. And two Hoti's who are J2b2. But we need one of the Krasniqi J2b2 to get some STRs and see if he matches the Hoti example, that way we can prove the theory of them of common descent.This my point.As i said vella.most of all people from krasniqi tribe settled in peja they are the ones that migrated from tropoja where the krasniqi came from in the first place.The other krasniqi surnames are people who bared the name in modern times,my cuisn tell me this he albanian historian.

ukaj
10-26-2015, 04:11 PM
It's all good. I was just going by the examples we have thus far from 2 Hoti members and 2 Krasniqi members who are J2b2's, while one Krasniqi E-V13. We didn't know you have tested, or your dad in this case. That means we have a new Hoti member who is E-V13. You should email the person in our project, so he can post your results:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/resultsI think i would like test myself if this helps...But i do stand out much difrent to other albanians in feature wise,Im rather tall with hazel eyes an bigger in statue,I will ask my father for results it maybe a while because he has to have hip operation.The admin for these test i think should test krasniqi from peja area i bet they will be same as me,they are rather tall an simular features as me but we remained in north

ADW_1981
10-26-2015, 04:15 PM
E-V13 is a near impossibility of arriving from the steppes or being the original PIE speakers. No offense or anything.

Trojet
10-26-2015, 04:19 PM
I think i would like test myself if this helps...But i do stand out much difrent to other albanians in feature wise,Im rather tall with hazel eyes an bigger in statue,I will ask my father for results it maybe a while because he has to have hip operation.The admin for these test i think should test krasniqi from peja area i bet they will be same as me,they are rather tall an simular features as me but we remained in north

If you're thinking of testing, test with FTDNA it will be a great contribution to us, especially for the Clan project. Y-DNA37 or better Y-DNA67 recommended, and u get $20 automatic discount through our project here:
www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?group=AlbanianBloodlines&code=B11086

ukaj
10-26-2015, 04:23 PM
If you're thinking of testing, test with FTDNA it will be a great contribution to us, especially for the Clan project. Y-DNA37 or better Y-DNA67 recommended, and u get $20 automatic discount through our project here:
www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?group=AlbanianBloodlines&code=B11086I will do 37.I will speak with my father aswell

ukaj
10-26-2015, 04:26 PM
E-V13 is a near impossibility of arriving from the steppes or being the original PIE speakers. No offense or anything.Are you sure about that??Maybe look this studie this year https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/09/01/more-y-snp-calls-from-iron-and-bronze-age-bulgaria/
E-V13 did not come from anywhere but the Balkans. Its immediate ancestors are Mesolithic Balkanic

Star93
10-26-2015, 04:54 PM
Very interesting thanks for sharing! Hopefully ancient balkan data will be available soon to compare with our project haplogroups and autosomal readings.

ADW_1981
10-26-2015, 05:06 PM
Are you sure about that??Maybe look this studie this year https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/09/01/more-y-snp-calls-from-iron-and-bronze-age-bulgaria/
E-V13 did not come from anywhere but the Balkans. Its immediate ancestors are Mesolithic Balkanic

Yes, but Balkans isn't the steppes and PIE wasn't born in Balkans. Strongest candidate for Albanian and Greek languages speakers is R1b-CTS9219. Since CTS9219 is among Ossetians and Balkan people, there must be a relationship here. Moreover, there is no documented movement of people from southern Balkans to steppes of Russia, but there is documentation of the reverse.

J Man
10-26-2015, 06:01 PM
It's all good. I was just going by the examples we have thus far from 2 Hoti members and 2 Krasniqi members who are J2b2's, while one Krasniqi is E-V13. We didn't know you have tested, or your dad in this case. That means we have a new Krasniqi member who is E-V13, unless you're the same E-V13 Krasniqi we already have?

Are Hoti and Krasniqi different tribes/clans? Or are the Krasniqi a sub-clan within the Hoti?

J Man
10-26-2015, 06:03 PM
Are you sure about that??Maybe look this studie this year https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/09/01/more-y-snp-calls-from-iron-and-bronze-age-bulgaria/
E-V13 did not come from anywhere but the Balkans. Its immediate ancestors are Mesolithic Balkanic

That has yet to be determined. So far no ancient Mesolithic Y-DNA has been tested from the Balkans.

J Man
10-26-2015, 06:05 PM
I think i would like test myself if this helps...But i do stand out much difrent to other albanians in feature wise,Im rather tall with hazel eyes an bigger in statue,I will ask my father for results it maybe a while because he has to have hip operation.The admin for these test i think should test krasniqi from peja area i bet they will be same as me,they are rather tall an simular features as me but we remained in north

Are you male or female?

J Man
10-26-2015, 06:05 PM
Very interesting thanks for sharing! Hopefully ancient balkan data will be available soon to compare with our project haplogroups and autosomal readings.

Nice to see you here! :)

Trojet
10-26-2015, 06:55 PM
Are Hoti and Krasniqi different tribes/clans? Or are the Krasniqi a sub-clan within the Hoti?

Yes. From what I've heard, Krasniqi is supposed to be a sub- Clan of Hoti. Their Y-DNA haplogroups seem to suggest this is true, 4/5 J2b2. However, only one (Hoti) has done an STR test while the rest are from 23andme. We're trying to get a Krasniqi member to do a STR test through FTDNA and see if he matches the Hoti example we have. I don't hail from one of these Clans though. I come from NW Macedonia.

Mamluk
10-26-2015, 07:41 PM
Does anyone know if J2b1 appears in any high percentage in one of the Albanian or Kosovar tribes?

It seems J2b1 is mainly found in Serbians. And which part of Serbia is it concentrated in?

Trojet
10-26-2015, 08:13 PM
Does anyone know if J2b1 appears in any high percentage in one of the Albanian or Kosovar tribes?

It seems J2b1 is mainly found in Serbians. And which part of Serbia is it concentrated in?

We don't have any J2b1 samples in our project so far. Also according to scientific studies of the Albanian populations I have seen, our J2b seems to be exclusively J2b2-M241.

Skerdilaidas
10-26-2015, 10:12 PM
Hoti and Krasniqi are supposed to be brother Clans going by oral traditions. They migrated from Herzegovina. Majority of Hoti descent from Gheg Lazri , while few families, Locnikaj and Kojė are of old Hoti (Anas). Krasniqi stems from Krasni Keqi, brother of Gheg Lazri - Nikaj Clan are a branch of Krasniqi too. Piper, Vaso and Ozro are supposedly their brothers too, by the oral traditions. Genetically though it doesn't seem like it. Perhaps at one point in time they joined forces for protection, and usually in such bonds, marriages are forbidden, so perhaps that is where the tales of the same ancestry come from, because they did not intermarry at one point in time.

Hoti and Krasniqi though are most certainly related, we will be able to tell in the near future for sure.

J Man
10-26-2015, 10:14 PM
Yes. From what I've heard, Krasniqi is supposed to be a sub- Clan of Hoti. Their Y-DNA haplogroups seem to suggest this is true, 4/5 J2b2. However, only one (Hoti) has done an STR test while the rest are from 23andme. We're trying to get a Krasniqi member to do a STR test through FTDNA and see if he matches the Hoti example we have. I don't hail from one of these Clans though. I come from NW Macedonia.

So then most likely the Krasniqi clan that belongs to the Hoti tribe was originally a J2b2 clan in the male line but more STR testing needs to be done in order to truly confirm this.

Skerdilaidas
10-26-2015, 10:38 PM
yes father hoti but from krasniqi fis..

Lol you either are Hot or Krasniq, there isn't a Hot that belongs to Krasniqi clan. Where are you from, anyway? If you give me your village and family name I can find out which clan and brotherhood you belong to.

J Man
10-26-2015, 10:47 PM
Lol you either are Hot or Krasniq, there isn't a Hot that belongs to Krasniqi clan. Where are you from, anyway? If you give me your village and family name I can find out which clan and brotherhood you belong to.

Ahhh thank you for clearing that up. Hoti and Krasniqi are separate tribes/clans.

J Man
10-26-2015, 10:56 PM
All of the men that come from the Hoti tribe/clan that have tested so far have turned our to belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2 then correct?

Skerdilaidas
10-26-2015, 11:07 PM
All of the men that come from the Hoti tribe/clan that have tested so far have turned our to belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2 then correct?

Yes, only two have tested so far: Gjelaj brotherhood at ftdna and Gojcaj at 23andme. There is also a J2b2 at ftdna that we believe is of Trieshi Clan, an offshoot of Hoti, but we haven't been able to confirm yet.

J Man
10-26-2015, 11:20 PM
Yes, only two have tested so far: Gjelaj brotherhood at ftdna and Gojcaj at 23andme. There is also a J2b2 at ftdna that we believe is of Trieshi Clan, an offshoot of Hoti, but we haven't been able to confirm yet.

Now the J2b2 Hoti man from the Gjelaj brotherhood and the J2b2 Hoti man from the Gojcaj brotherhood both come from the ''New Hoti''?

ukaj
10-26-2015, 11:32 PM
Lol you either are Hot or Krasniq, there isn't a Hot that belongs to Krasniqi clan. Where are you from, anyway? If you give me your village and family name I can find out which clan and brotherhood you belong to.I am krasnich.I use the term hoti because it was their was never krasnichi but only 1 tribe at one point.Witch was hot.But my mother side is kelmendi.As for region is between shkodra ,thethi,

ukaj
10-26-2015, 11:36 PM
Are Hoti and Krasniqi different tribes/clans? Or are the Krasniqi a sub-clan within the Hoti?krasnichi is is offshoot of hoti like treisha

ukaj
10-26-2015, 11:47 PM
Now the J2b2 Hoti man from the Gjelaj brotherhood and the J2b2 Hoti man from the Gojcaj brotherhood both come from the ''New Hoti''?
This will be very hard for you to do these tests on krasnichi because their were many that bare this name that are not infact from krasnichi tribe.If you want tests from these people you need to get from peja an troopja,I know shouldnt say this because i dont want to insult an is rude an srry if offends.krasniqi of tropoja are catholics that remained in their lands,krasniqi of peja an rahovec are the muslim from krasniqi tribe.

Illyro-Vlach
10-27-2015, 12:04 AM
All of the men that come from the Hoti tribe/clan that have tested so far have turned our to belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2 then correct?

The fact that I'm J2B2* and that I'm from Herzegovina is why I'm asking our forum Albanians to help me out with some sources on the Hoti in Herzegovina :)

J Man
10-27-2015, 12:31 AM
This will be very hard for you to do these tests on krasnichi because their were many that bare this name that are not infact from krasnichi tribe.If you want tests from these people you need to get from peja an troopja,I know shouldnt say this because i dont want to insult an is rude an srry if offends.krasniqi of tropoja are catholics that remained in their lands,krasniqi of peja an rahovec are the muslim from krasniqi tribe.

Are you male or female?

Trojet
10-27-2015, 12:43 AM
This will be very hard for you to do these tests on krasnichi because their were many that bare this name that are not infact from krasnichi tribe.If you want tests from these people you need to get from peja an troopja,I know shouldnt say this because i dont want to insult an is rude an srry if offends.krasniqi of tropoja are catholics that remained in their lands,krasniqi of peja an rahovec are the muslim from krasniqi tribe.

So are you trying to say that the real Hoti and Krasniqi Clan members are not J2b2, and if so where do you think the source of J2b2 is coming from in these other Krasniqi and Hoti members that have tested as such?

Skerdilaidas
10-27-2015, 01:03 AM
Now the J2b2 Hoti man from the Gjelaj brotherhood and the J2b2 Hoti man from the Gojcaj brotherhood both come from the ''New Hoti''?

Correct. They both are new Hoti.

Skerdilaidas
10-27-2015, 01:16 AM
I am krasnich.I use the term hoti because it was their was never krasnichi but only 1 tribe at one point.Witch was hot.But my mother side is kelmendi.As for region is between shkodra ,thethi,

Dude, if you are not sure what you are and don't know the history of these Clans, please don't participate because you are creating confusion. Marash Uci, an old man from Hoti, in his 90s in early 1900s, told Edith Durham what I have said in my first post (except he doesn't mention Ozro). Krasni Lazeri and Gheg Lazri were brothers; Krasniqi stems from Krasni Lazeri and Hoti from Gheg Lazeri. Can you read Albanian? Here is a good book, has quite some details about the brotherhoods of Krasniqi. Please read it before you comment: https://www.scribd.com/doc/262485414/I-K-Malaj-Tropoja-Ne-Breza

ukaj
10-27-2015, 01:23 AM
Dude, if you are not sure what you are and don't know the history of these Clans, please don't participate because you are creating confusion. Marash Uci, an old man from Hoti, in his 90s in early 1900s, told Edith Durham what I have said in my first post (except he doesn't mention Ozro). Krasni Lazeri and Gheg Lazri were brothers; Krasniqi stems from Krasni Lazeri and Hoti from Gheg Lazeri. Can you read Albanian? Here is a good book, has quite some details about the brotherhoods of Krasniqi. Please read it before you comment: https://www.scribd.com/doc/262485414/I-K-Malaj-Tropoja-Ne-BrezaIm sure of history of the clans as my cousin is a albanian historian.He told me that krasniqi clan comes from hoti an is partof hoti an that the krasniqi clan before turning muslim were from tropoja an were all catholics.he said migration of krasniqi went strait to peja an settled an still remain their because of feuding with other tribes.He also said that many other albanians took surname of krasniqi but are not original people of that surname i dont know why but he said this happen.either way kras or gheg are related without doubt,krasniqi is part of the hoti region.Why would my father be eb1?An others from same tribe would are j2.Im guessing you are hoti triesha if so this would explain the animosity towards people from krasniqi

ukaj
10-27-2015, 01:26 AM
So are you trying to say that the real Hoti and Krasniqi Clan members are not J2b2, and if so where do you think the source of J2b2 is coming from in these other Krasniqi and Hoti members that have tested as such?No what im saying is if you test the family of krasniqi in troopja an the ones in peja you will have you answer.

Skerdilaidas
10-27-2015, 01:40 AM
Im sure of history of the clans as my cousin is a albanian historian.He told me that krasniqi clan comes from hoti an is partof hoti an that the krasniqi clan before turning muslim were from tropoja an were all catholics.he said migration of krasniqi went strait to peja an settled an still remain their because of feuding with other tribes.He also said that many other albanians took surname of krasniqi but are not original people of that surname i dont know why but he said this happen.either way kras or gheg are related without doubt,krasniqi is part of the hoti region.Why would my father be eb1?An others from same tribe would are j2

Read the book I posted, and what your brother is, is irrelevant in our discussion here. As I have said more then few times, they are brother Clans. Krasniqi actually can be found in most Kosova and in South Serbia today. Sure, they have absorbed other families, just like other Clans did, but they did not just settle Peja as you are saying. Here is where Johann Georg von Hahn found them in mid 1800s:

"As in the motherland, a tribe here is known as a fis, a term that would seem to be related to the Greek φύσις. The descendent leaders of the tribes are called nacer, a word I did not encounter in the motherland. It is perhaps of Turkish origin.

The main tribes are distributed across the country approximately as follows: of the 22 village of Lab, 20 of them are Clementines [Kelmendi]. The other two belong to Betush [Bityē]. They extend from Podujeva to Kurshumlija and inhabit most of the villages in Dedić. On the other hand, there are no Kelmendi in the regions of Vranje and Gilan [Gjilan]. They all regard the Kelmendi, who inhabit the northern Albanian Alps and are of Catholic faith, as their mother tribe, from which at various times individual families moved to Dardania. The Grashnich [Krasniqi] are to be found mainly in and around Prishtina and constitute virtually the entire Muslim population of that town. Aside from them, there are only fourteen houses of Emire, who regard themselves as a branch of a mother tribe in Novo Brdo [Novobėrda]. These Emire are the only Muslims in the country that stem from Asia or, as they say locally, they are the only Osmanli in the country.

Upper and Lower Golak are the main villages of the Krasniqi in the region of Prishtina, where they are more or less equal in number to the Kelmendi. They are also prominent in Leskovac and Mitrovica, and are equally to be found in the region of Vranje.

Mixed in with the Krasniqi in the region of Leskovac are branches of the Sob (hay), Berisha and Gashi tribes. The Sob also predominate in the Moravica Valley. Almost all of the inhabitants of Karadag [Mal i Zi i Shkupit / Skopska Crna Gora] are Berisha. Gashi can also be found in the region of Masurica, most of which, however, belongs to the Krasniqi. The Gashi inhabit six villages in the district of Leskovac, but have no relations with the rest of their tribe in Prishtina and Vranje. Their one-time chief was Latif Aga, famed throughout the land for this bravery. He has now been replaced by his eldest son Reshid Aga, whose brother Emin commands the five-man garrison at the guardhouse in Lebana [Lebane]. I am grateful for some of this information to this Emin and one of his subjects called Hajdar, whom I noticed in particular because he was the only Albanian who betrayed in his gestures that he offered shelter to others [non-Muslims?]. I was also told about other large tribes: the Gasi, who were scattered everywhere, and the Shalj [Shala], who constitute the main population of the region of Vuēitėrn [Vushtrria] and who recognised the Catholic Shala of the northern Albanian Alps as their mother tribe."

Btw, both our J2b2 Krasniqi are from Gollak. Where has your father tested, and can we confirm his results?

ukaj
10-27-2015, 01:55 AM
Read the book I posted, and what your brother is, is irrelevant in our discussion here. As I have said more then few times, they are brother Clans. Krasniqi actually can be found in most Kosova and in South Serbia today. Sure, they have absorbed other families, just like other Clans did, but they did not just settle Peja as you are saying. Here is where Johann Georg von Hahn found them in mid 1800s:

"As in the motherland, a tribe here is known as a fis, a term that would seem to be related to the Greek φύσις. The descendent leaders of the tribes are called nacer, a word I did not encounter in the motherland. It is perhaps of Turkish origin.

The main tribes are distributed across the country approximately as follows: of the 22 village of Lab, 20 of them are Clementines [Kelmendi]. The other two belong to Betush [Bityē]. They extend from Podujeva to Kurshumlija and inhabit most of the villages in Dedić. On the other hand, there are no Kelmendi in the regions of Vranje and Gilan [Gjilan]. They all regard the Kelmendi, who inhabit the northern Albanian Alps and are of Catholic faith, as their mother tribe, from which at various times individual families moved to Dardania. The Grashnich [Krasniqi] are to be found mainly in and around Prishtina and constitute virtually the entire Muslim population of that town. Aside from them, there are only fourteen houses of Emire, who regard themselves as a branch of a mother tribe in Novo Brdo [Novobėrda]. These Emire are the only Muslims in the country that stem from Asia or, as they say locally, they are the only Osmanli in the country.

Upper and Lower Golak are the main villages of the Krasniqi in the region of Prishtina, where they are more or less equal in number to the Kelmendi. They are also prominent in Leskovac and Mitrovica, and are equally to be found in the region of Vranje.

Mixed in with the Krasniqi in the region of Leskovac are branches of the Sob (hay), Berisha and Gashi tribes. The Sob also predominate in the Moravica Valley. Almost all of the inhabitants of Karadag [Mal i Zi i Shkupit / Skopska Crna Gora] are Berisha. Gashi can also be found in the region of Masurica, most of which, however, belongs to the Krasniqi. The Gashi inhabit six villages in the district of Leskovac, but have no relations with the rest of their tribe in Prishtina and Vranje. Their one-time chief was Latif Aga, famed throughout the land for this bravery. He has now been replaced by his eldest son Reshid Aga, whose brother Emin commands the five-man garrison at the guardhouse in Lebana [Lebane]. I am grateful for some of this information to this Emin and one of his subjects called Hajdar, whom I noticed in particular because he was the only Albanian who betrayed in his gestures that he offered shelter to others [non-Muslims?]. I was also told about other large tribes: the Gasi, who were scattered everywhere, and the Shalj [Shala], who constitute the main population of the region of Vuēitėrn [Vushtrria] and who recognised the Catholic Shala of the northern Albanian Alps as their mother tribe."

Btw, both our J2b2 Krasniqi are from Gollak. Where has your father tested, and can we confirm his results?Im not sure where my father has been tested but i will ask an i dont know i thnk he is more into this than of what i am,And again krasniqi homeland is from tropoja originally.An migrated to peja i dont know how many times i need to tell you..Maybe i should leave this site as their is to many know it all.I know of my tribe an the settlements vlla.what fis you hail from an region,,

ukaj
10-27-2015, 02:06 AM
Read the book I posted, and what your brother is, is irrelevant in our discussion here. As I have said more then few times, they are brother Clans. Krasniqi actually can be found in most Kosova and in South Serbia today. Sure, they have absorbed other families, just like other Clans did, but they did not just settle Peja as you are saying. Here is where Johann Georg von Hahn found them in mid 1800s:

"As in the motherland, a tribe here is known as a fis, a term that would seem to be related to the Greek φύσις. The descendent leaders of the tribes are called nacer, a word I did not encounter in the motherland. It is perhaps of Turkish origin.

The main tribes are distributed across the country approximately as follows: of the 22 village of Lab, 20 of them are Clementines [Kelmendi]. The other two belong to Betush [Bityē]. They extend from Podujeva to Kurshumlija and inhabit most of the villages in Dedić. On the other hand, there are no Kelmendi in the regions of Vranje and Gilan [Gjilan]. They all regard the Kelmendi, who inhabit the northern Albanian Alps and are of Catholic faith, as their mother tribe, from which at various times individual families moved to Dardania. The Grashnich [Krasniqi] are to be found mainly in and around Prishtina and constitute virtually the entire Muslim population of that town. Aside from them, there are only fourteen houses of Emire, who regard themselves as a branch of a mother tribe in Novo Brdo [Novobėrda]. These Emire are the only Muslims in the country that stem from Asia or, as they say locally, they are the only Osmanli in the country.

Upper and Lower Golak are the main villages of the Krasniqi in the region of Prishtina, where they are more or less equal in number to the Kelmendi. They are also prominent in Leskovac and Mitrovica, and are equally to be found in the region of Vranje.

Mixed in with the Krasniqi in the region of Leskovac are branches of the Sob (hay), Berisha and Gashi tribes. The Sob also predominate in the Moravica Valley. Almost all of the inhabitants of Karadag [Mal i Zi i Shkupit / Skopska Crna Gora] are Berisha. Gashi can also be found in the region of Masurica, most of which, however, belongs to the Krasniqi. The Gashi inhabit six villages in the district of Leskovac, but have no relations with the rest of their tribe in Prishtina and Vranje. Their one-time chief was Latif Aga, famed throughout the land for this bravery. He has now been replaced by his eldest son Reshid Aga, whose brother Emin commands the five-man garrison at the guardhouse in Lebana [Lebane]. I am grateful for some of this information to this Emin and one of his subjects called Hajdar, whom I noticed in particular because he was the only Albanian who betrayed in his gestures that he offered shelter to others [non-Muslims?]. I was also told about other large tribes: the Gasi, who were scattered everywhere, and the Shalj [Shala], who constitute the main population of the region of Vuēitėrn [Vushtrria] and who recognised the Catholic Shala of the northern Albanian Alps as their mother tribe."

Btw, both our J2b2 Krasniqi are from Gollak. Where has your father tested, and can we confirm his results?This is all im trying to say vlla i dont know what the issue is,Most of the krasniqi tribe migrated to peja an some pristina,An i know alot live in rahovec region witch also is part of peja out skirts,sorry to anyone hear if does not like my post i was tought oral through family an through my cusin who has studied this issue for many years,, hear in link where red is i have marked is the original homeland of krasnichi anyway thank you for time.An hope for use the best,

6450

J Man
10-27-2015, 02:08 AM
Correct. They both are new Hoti.

What is the difference between ''Old Hoti'' and ''New Hoti''?...Herzegovina?

ukaj
10-27-2015, 02:15 AM
J man i dont understand old an new,please explain before i go.old hoti are from herzgovinia an new didnt even know existed.

Skerdilaidas
10-27-2015, 02:19 AM
The fact that I'm J2B2* and that I'm from Herzegovina is why I'm asking our forum Albanians to help me out with some sources on the Hoti in Herzegovina :)

Where have you tested 23andme or ftdna? We have a Hoti example at ftdna, so if you want to know if you are a lost Albanian, you should test at ftdna ;) Btw, did you Herzegovina Croats tattoo back in the day? These Clans did and they had some wicked hair cuts too. Here are some Kastrati hair styles:
http://41.media.tumblr.com/49d8793e787ea910be463ded809ec74a/tumblr_myy86hYCp31qbwh93o1_1280.jpg

Skerdilaidas
10-27-2015, 02:28 AM
What is the difference between ''Old Hoti'' and ''New Hoti''?...Herzegovina?

Yes, the Herzegovinaians migrants are the new Hoti, and are knowns as new Hoti because Hoti as a Clan existed prior to their arrival.

ukaj
10-27-2015, 02:36 AM
Yes, the Herzegovinaians migrants are the new Hoti, and are knowns as new Hoti because Hoti as a Clan existed prior to their arrival.Interesting.May i ask what part albania you are from.

Skerdilaidas
10-27-2015, 02:38 AM
Interesting.May i ask what part albania you are from.

I am from Baica, a village in Drenica and belong to Thaci Clan. How about you, which village of Peja are you from?

ukaj
10-27-2015, 02:41 AM
I am from Baica, a village in Drenica and belong to Thaci Clan. How about you, which village of Peja are you from?Am not from peja.I do have family their but am from north albania place called demaj named after village alot from tropoja.have family in thethi also..we have 6 villages in peja.an another 4 in tropjoa.Then on mother side we have familys in rugova an some in kelmendi Ujkaj family hence my first name.we have 4 villages in rugova from muriqi family.an 3 in kelmendi who bare surname Ujkaj.But i have father surname dem,lol both these villages are catholic an muslim

ukaj
10-27-2015, 02:46 AM
I am from Baica, a village in Drenica and belong to Thaci Clan. How about you, which village of Peja are you from?thaci is good people thaci are good friends of some of my family.I would like to ask about old an new hoti,would you ashume old hoti came from herzgovnia as their were albanians from their that migrated down an to the old hoti region.make alot sense that their may have been a migration pattern early before new albanians settled

Skerdilaidas
10-27-2015, 03:05 AM
thaci is good people thaci are good friends of some of my family.I would like to ask about old an new hoti,would you ashume old hoti came from herzgovnia as their were albanians from their that migrated down an to the old hoti region.make alot sense that their may have been a migration pattern early before new albanians settled

Well, there are good and bad Thaci :D

The Old Hoti or as they are known "Anas" did not migrate there, they were indigenous to the North Albanian mountains, like few other Clans (most likely E-V13 or R1b). Here is what Marash Uci, an old man and a warrior of Hoti, said to Edith Durham:


"The tribe of Hoti," said the old man, "has many relations. Thirteen generations ago, one Gheg Lazar came to this land with his four sons, and it is from these that we of Hoti descend. I cannot tell the year in which they came. It was soon after the building of the church of Gruda, and that is now 380 years ago. Gruda came before we did. Gheg was one of four brothers. The other three were Piper, Vaso, and Krasni. From these descend the Piperi and Vasojevichi of Montenegro and the Krasnichi of North Albania. So we are four–all related–the Lazakechi (we of Hoti), the Piperkechi, the Vasokechi, and the Kraskechi. They all came from Bosnia to escape the Turks, but from what part I do not know. Yes, they were all Christians. Krasnichi only turned Moslem much later."

Of these four large tribes, of common origin, Piperi and Vasojevich are now Serbophone and Orthodox. Piperi threw in its lot with Montenegro in 1790, but whether or not it was then Serbophone I have failed to learn. Half of Vasojevich was given to Montenegro after the Treaty of Berlin, the other portion still remains under Turkish rule. Vasojevich considers itself wholly Serb, and is bitter foe to the Albanophone tribes on its borders. Krasnich is Albanophone and fanatically Moslem; Hoti is Albanophone and Roman Catholic.


The date three hundred and eighty years ago gives us 1528. In 1463 the Turks conquered and killed the last king of Bosnia; but the whole land was not finally incorporated in the Turkish Empire till 1590 (about). The traditional date of emigration falls well within the period when the Turkish occupation was spreading, so is probably approximately correct. A large communal family, with flocks, would be some time on the way.

The old man said modestly that if I were really interested in his family, he would like to give me his family tree, and did so,–from Gheg Laz, through his second son, Djun Gheg, down to his own great-grandson, a strapping child, the apple of his great-grandsire's eye.

"I have been told," said I, "that Nikaj is also a brother of Hoti?"

"No, no," said the old man, "not brother. But part of Nikaj is related to Krasnichi by a later generation, and so to us also, and we cannot marry them. They come from the houses of Bijeli-Krasnich and Mulo-Smaint. Shaban Benaku, the celebrated chief of Krasnich, is straight from Krasni, brother of Gheg Laz, my forefather. And half the tribe of Triepshi, the stem of Bakechi, is of Hoti blood. We cannot marry them. The other half–the Bekaj–we can. They are not our blood; they come from Kopliku. Triepshi belongs to Montenegro now, but is all Catholic. When Gheg Laz and his sons came here, there were already people here."

Some one suggested they were Shkyar (Slavs), but the old man was positive they were not. "They were a very old people. No one knew whence they came. Some said they were like Tartars. My grandfather said they were very strong and active, and could leap over six horses at once, and that they ate acorns and horse-flesh. Twelve houses in Hoti are descended from them, and with these we can marry. They are other blood. They are called Anas." (Anas, in the Albanian dictionary of the Bashkimi society, means "indigenous.")

But the idea of marrying within the stock Gheg Laz seemed to him so impossible, he would not admit that even in the remote future it could ever take place. "We are brothers and sisters. It would be a great sin."

This detailed story of tribal origin and relationship, straight from native lips, is of much interest. Most of the Albanian, also most of the Montenegrin, tribes have a similar tale–the flight of their ancestor to escape Turkish persecution.

We left Bridzha for Gruda at 5.30 A.M., with the old man as guide. The track went over loose rocks and stones along a steep mountain side. Then came a descent over the other side, into a wooded, cultivated hollow, where stood Hoti's second church, that of the men of Treboina, who trace their descent from Pyetar Gheg, fourth son of Gheg Laz."

ukaj
10-27-2015, 03:20 AM
Well, there are good and bad Thaci :D

The Old Hoti or as they are known "Anas" did not migrate there, they were indigenous to the North Albanian mountains, like few other Clans (most likely E-V13 or R1b). Here is what Marash Uci, an old man and a warrior of Hoti, said to Edith Durham:Cool interesting again thank you..but would like to ask where is this person from who had test done from krasniqi surname hear is on picture 6451 im guessing pristina or around that area

Tįltos
10-27-2015, 03:22 AM
Is it possible to know what tribe/clan the Arbėreshė of southern Italy and Sicily are from?

J Man
10-27-2015, 03:47 AM
Where have you tested 23andme or ftdna? We have a Hoti example at ftdna, so if you want to know if you are a lost Albanian, you should test at ftdna ;) Btw, did you Herzegovina Croats tattoo back in the day? These Clans did and they had some wicked hair cuts too. Here are some Kastrati hair styles:
http://41.media.tumblr.com/49d8793e787ea910be463ded809ec74a/tumblr_myy86hYCp31qbwh93o1_1280.jpg

Interesting hair styles. Pretty neat actually.

J Man
10-27-2015, 04:20 AM
Well, there are good and bad Thaci :D

The Old Hoti or as they are known "Anas" did not migrate there, they were indigenous to the North Albanian mountains, like few other Clans (most likely E-V13 or R1b). Here is what Marash Uci, an old man and a warrior of Hoti, said to Edith Durham:

So the "New Hoti" descend from Gheg Lazar and originated as a tribe/clan somewhere around the year 1528 AD. Is that right?

Gravetto-Danubian
10-27-2015, 04:24 AM
Well, there are good and bad Thaci :D

The Old Hoti or as they are known "Anas" did not migrate there, they were indigenous to the North Albanian mountains, like few other Clans (most likely E-V13 or R1b). Here is what Marash Uci, an old man and a warrior of Hoti, said to Edith Durham:

Very interesting
Can you inform us non-Albos (briefly) how your family/ tribe/ Kin structure works ?

Skerdilaidas
10-27-2015, 04:30 AM
So the "New Hoti" descend from Gheg Lazar and originated as a tribe/clan somewhere around the year 1528 AD. Is that right?

Yes, they actually entered the Hoti Clan as new comers, since they found the Clan established, but came to dominate it shortly after. Roughly around early 1500s is the date that is most accepted.

Skerdilaidas
10-27-2015, 04:39 AM
Is it possible to know what tribe/clan the Arbėreshė of southern Italy and Sicily are from?

Not really, unless genetics bring some light to it. Arbereshe mostly migrated from today's territory of Greece and South to Central Albania, in other words majority were Tosk speaking. Tosks lost most of their tribal structures during early middle ages, except in few pockets like Laberia and Suli, and were not well recorded either, so it's impossible to try to find today what clans they belonged to back then.

Skerdilaidas
10-27-2015, 04:53 AM
Very interesting
Can you inform us non-Albos (briefly) how your family/ tribe/ Kin structure works ?

Sure, it's not very simple to explain it in detail, but I will try to give you some insight. We were governed by set of laws that were orally passed down from generation to generation that we call The Kanun of Lek Dukagjin:

The Kanun is based on four pillars:

Honour (Albanian: Nderi)
Hospitality (Albanian: Mikpritja)
Right Conduct (Albanian: Sjellja)
Kin Loyalty (Albanian: Fis)

Here is a brief summary of the Kanun: http://www.academia.edu/1288859/Of_Time_Honor_and_Memory_Oral_Law_in_Albania

ukaj
10-27-2015, 04:56 AM
Yes, they actually entered the Hoti Clan as new comers, since they found the Clan established, but came to dominated shortly after. Roughly around early 1500s is the date that is most accepted.so if im right but correct me i read what you post an found it great.so Krasni was borther of gheg laz.an gheg laz is from old hoti.or not because im confused lol/so many names.

Skerdilaidas
10-27-2015, 05:03 AM
so if im right but correct me i read what you post an found it great.so Krasni was borther of gheg laz.an gheg laz is from old hoti.or not because im confused lol/so many names.

Lol, yes Gheg was Krasni's brother, and he is of the new Hoti.

ukaj
10-27-2015, 05:13 AM
Lol, yes Gheg was Krasni's brother, and he is of the new Hoti.An gheg is old hoti yes?If so this make no sense bro,In some point in time they would have been from the same area an village,So they must have been a migration sometime in this period

Skerdilaidas
10-27-2015, 05:35 AM
An gheg is old hoti yes?If so this make no sense bro,In some point in time they would have been from the same area an village,So they must have been a migration sometime in this period

A e fol Shqipen Ukaj? Une te thash qe Gheg Lazri asht ardhacak prej Hercegovine, pra qe automatikisht i bjen se ash Hoti i ri, sepse, Hoti si fis ka egzituar qysh prej shekullit te 14, ndoshta edhe me heret, aty ku gjendet edhe sot.

ukaj
10-27-2015, 05:47 AM
A e fol Shqipen Ukaj? Une te thash qe Gheg Lazri asht ardhacak prej Hercegovine, pra qe automatikisht i bjen se ash Hoti i ri, sepse, Hoti si fis ka egzituar qysh prej shekullit te 14 aty ku gjendet edhe sot.Po vlla une kuptoj.I know what you tell I speak albanian np but because in this forum i speak english.Pm if want speak shqiptoj.I still think their is mistake hear.reason being.If albanians of old hoti are related to new hoti through blood then their must have been in some stage in the same area an region.I followed up of what you have wrote an find it good but their is some flaws.maybe gheg migrated downwards much early from herzgovinia then of new albanians from hoti did.nuk koptaj kush shkruaj kete nuk e di.Muni te fletni pak ma kada

Tįltos
10-27-2015, 02:57 PM
Thank you guys for all the information. Yes please keep this section of the forum in English. PM each other if you wish to speak in Albanian.

Illyro-Vlach
10-27-2015, 08:40 PM
Where have you tested 23andme or ftdna? We have a Hoti example at ftdna, so if you want to know if you are a lost Albanian, you should test at ftdna ;) Btw, did you Herzegovina Croats tattoo back in the day? These Clans did and they had some wicked hair cuts too. Here are some Kastrati hair styles:


Tested at 23andMe. We didn't have tattoos as far as I know as that was the preserve of the Croatians of the interior of Bosnia during the Ottoman Era.

Skerdilaidas
10-27-2015, 09:35 PM
Po vlla une kuptoj.I know what you tell I speak albanian np but because in this forum i speak english.Pm if want speak shqiptoj.I still think their is mistake hear.reason being.If albanians of old hoti are related to new hoti through blood then their must have been in some stage in the same area an region.I followed up of what you have wrote an find it good but their is some flaws.maybe gheg migrated downwards much early from herzgovinia then of new albanians from hoti did.nuk koptaj kush shkruaj kete nuk e di.Muni te fletni pak ma kada

Well I thought you were having troubles understanding English, since all the evidence of their relations has been posted by me, hence why I wanted to make it easier for you and give you an answer in Albanian. Though, I have to say your Albanian is just as bad. You live in the West somewhere?

I will repeat it again, Gheg Lazri is of new Hoti, thus not related by blood to old Hoti. We don't know exactly when the Hoti clan was formed and where they came from, the earliest reference of their existence is around 1300s. They could very well be the old inhabitants of those mountains. Aftermath is that two faternities, not related by blood, formed the Hoti we know today; the old inhabitants and the Herzegovinian migrants.

Illyro-Vlach
10-27-2015, 10:19 PM
Aftermath is that two faternities, not related by blood, formed the Hoti we know today; the old inhabitants and the Herzegovinian migrants.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any academic sources on this 'migration from Herzegovina'. The only references to this historical migration stem from Edith Durham's excellent work reposted all over the internet. We don't have any hard facts, just some legends for now.

Illyro-Vlach
10-27-2015, 10:24 PM
Here's a question (doesn't involve DNA, so I hope it's not too off-topic) but is there any history of Albanians who spoke a Vulgar Latin during the Dark Ages akin to other Balkan Vlachs?

Skerdilaidas
10-27-2015, 10:44 PM
Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any academic sources on this 'migration from Herzegovina'. The only references to this historical migration stem from Edith Durham's excellent work reposted all over the internet. We don't have any hard facts, just some legends for now.

The old man of Hoti gave Edith Durham very detailed description of his family tree, going all the way to the time frame when their migration happened. Plus, they are not exaggerating anything. If they were claiming to be of noble descent, mind you like most Montenegrin clans do, I would call them legends. Just because they were not recorded doesn't mean that it didn't happen. They don't gain anything by it, if they were. Not just them but also Shkreli and Gruda came from Bosnia, and they even have epic songs which they mention cities and towns like Jutbina and Klladusha.

Not to forget the Ragusan document of 1285 which mentions Albanians in the Dalmatian hinterland, which goes something like this "Audivi unam vocem clamanten in monte in lingua Albanesca".

Trojet
10-27-2015, 11:07 PM
Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any academic sources on this 'migration from Herzegovina'. The only references to this historical migration stem from Edith Durham's excellent work reposted all over the internet. We don't have any hard facts, just some legends for now.

I have faith that someday Y-DNA testing will confirm this if indeed is true. We need samples from both areas (Herzegovina, North Albania/Kosova). You just might be one of the candidates for Y-STR testing :P since you share the same haplogroup as the Albanian Clans in question that are supposed to have migrated from up there.

Illyro-Vlach
10-27-2015, 11:10 PM
The old man of Hoti gave Edith Durham very detailed description of his family tree, going all the way to the time frame when their migration happened. Plus, they are not exaggerating anything. If they were claiming to be of noble descent, mind you like most Montenegrin clans do, I would call them legends. Just because they were not recorded doesn't mean that it didn't happen. They don't gain anything by it, if they were. Not just them but also Shkreli and Gruda came from Bosnia, and they even have epic songs which they mention cities and towns like Jutbina and Klladusha.

Not to forget the Ragusan document of 1285 which mentions Albanians in the Dalmatian hinterland, which goes something like this "Audivi unam vocem clamanten in monte in lingua Albanesca".

I'm not denying that it didn't happen, but actual evidence is required beyond oral history for a conclusive case to be made. Hopefully DNA will help us fill in some gaps, along with historians studying medieval documents.

Illyro-Vlach
10-27-2015, 11:12 PM
Not to forget the Ragusan document of 1285 which mentions Albanians in the Dalmatian hinterland, which goes something like this "Audivi unam vocem clamanten in monte in lingua Albanesca".

Recall that Dalmatia was much larger at the time as it included the entire coast all the way down to Ulcinj. These Albanians being referenced might be those from in behind Kotor towards Lake Scutari. The Arbanasi around Zadar descend from these Albanians who eventually migrated to Northern Dalmatia.

Illyro-Vlach
10-27-2015, 11:15 PM
I have faith that someday Y-DNA testing will confirm this if indeed is true. We need samples from both areas (Herzegovina, North Albania/Kosova). You just might be one of the candidates for Y-STR testing :P since you share the same haplogroup as the Albanian Clans in question that are supposed to have migrated from up there.

Yes, that's precisely the interest I have in this. Hercegovina (the interior of today's Dalmatia, Northern Montenegro, and the Sandzak region of Serbia) have historically served as a baby-making factory of sorts in that so many modern-day Croatians and Serbians have roots from this mountainous area. Going backwards into history and passing through the Mountain Vlachs and prior to the Slavic invasions of the Balkans can lead us to some interesting surprises.

vettor
10-28-2015, 05:12 AM
Tested at 23andMe. We didn't have tattoos as far as I know as that was the preserve of the Croatians of the interior of Bosnia during the Ottoman Era.

As argued above, Roman perception of ‘Illyrian-ness’ was a construction that projected Mediter-ranean stereotypes of the shared cultural
habitus of the peoples living between the Adriatic and Danube.The practice of tattooing placed the Iapodes intothe category of ‘Illyrians’ and ‘Thracians’.
Strabo’s view of the Iapodes as the ‘Celts’ in 7.5.2 also fitswell into recent scholarly interpretations that theGreeks and Romans constructed the ‘Celts’ as apseudo-ethnic category through their perception of a shared cultural habitus amongst the communities of temperate Europe.

http://www.academia.edu/229391/_The_people_who_are_Illyrians_and_Celts_Strabo_and _the_identities_of_the_barbarians_from_Illyricum

Tattooing was mainly from the illyrian tribe near the modern interior border of slovenia an Croatia called the Iapodes.
This tribe migrated also to Apulia italy and where named the messapic .............same language

As you say, the albanians and most other people except celts did not have a custom of tattooing in the balkans.

Trojet
10-28-2015, 11:23 AM
As argued above, Roman perception of ‘Illyrian-ness’ was a construction that projected Mediter-ranean stereotypes of the shared cultural
habitus of the peoples living between the Adriatic and Danube.The practice of tattooing placed the Iapodes intothe category of ‘Illyrians’ and ‘Thracians’.
Strabo’s view of the Iapodes as the ‘Celts’ in 7.5.2 also fitswell into recent scholarly interpretations that theGreeks and Romans constructed the ‘Celts’ as apseudo-ethnic category through their perception of a shared cultural habitus amongst the communities of temperate Europe.

http://www.academia.edu/229391/_The_people_who_are_Illyrians_and_Celts_Strabo_and _the_identities_of_the_barbarians_from_Illyricum

Tattooing was mainly from the illyrian tribe near the modern interior border of slovenia an Croatia called the Iapodes.
This tribe migrated also to Apulia italy and where named the messapic .............same language

As you say, the albanians and most other people except celts did not have a custom of tattooing in the balkans.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get to in the last paragraph, but are you saying that Albanians cannot be connected to the Illyrians simply because unlike the Illyrians, Albanians lacked a custom of tatooing and that the real Illyrians were/are starting from present day Bosnia all the way to Slovenia?

I'm not sure if you read this, but user Skerdilaidas posted this a few pages ago about the Albanian Tribes, and he wasn't even trying to make a connection with the Illyrians:

Btw, did you Herzegovina Croats tattoo back in the day? These Clans did and they had some wicked hair cuts too. Here are some Kastrati hair styles:
http://41.media.tumblr.com/49d8793e787ea910be463ded809ec74a/tumblr_myy86hYCp31qbwh93o1_1280.jpg

Skerdilaidas
10-28-2015, 01:34 PM
As argued above, Roman perception of ‘Illyrian-ness’ was a construction that projected Mediter-ranean stereotypes of the shared cultural
habitus of the peoples living between the Adriatic and Danube.The practice of tattooing placed the Iapodes intothe category of ‘Illyrians’ and ‘Thracians’.
Strabo’s view of the Iapodes as the ‘Celts’ in 7.5.2 also fitswell into recent scholarly interpretations that theGreeks and Romans constructed the ‘Celts’ as apseudo-ethnic category through their perception of a shared cultural habitus amongst the communities of temperate Europe.

http://www.academia.edu/229391/_The_people_who_are_Illyrians_and_Celts_Strabo_and _the_identities_of_the_barbarians_from_Illyricum

Tattooing was mainly from the illyrian tribe near the modern interior border of slovenia an Croatia called the Iapodes.
This tribe migrated also to Apulia italy and where named the messapic .............same language

As you say, the albanians and most other people except celts did not have a custom of tattooing in the balkans.

We did tattoo, so does that mean we are Illyrians now? Lol

http://www.vanishingtattoo.com/north_africa_tattoo_history_5.htm

J Man
10-28-2015, 04:45 PM
I'm not denying that it didn't happen, but actual evidence is required beyond oral history for a conclusive case to be made. Hopefully DNA will help us fill in some gaps, along with historians studying medieval documents.

I actually think that overall oral histories a lot of the time have quite a bit of truth in them. But yes it is nice to have DNA to back them up. Sometimes DNA can prove or disprove a certain oral story or claim and sometimes it can't really because of adoptions and such over the ages.

Illyro-Vlach
10-28-2015, 07:17 PM
I actually think that overall oral histories a lot of the time have quite a bit of truth in them. But yes it is nice to have DNA to back them up. Sometimes DNA can prove or disprove a certain oral story or claim and sometimes it can't really because of adoptions and such over the ages.

They can often be true, but many of us like yourself like to see hard evidence to back up such claims especially when they are accepted as a cold, hard fact. I'm quite active in discussions elsewhere regarding ethnology/geneaology pertaining to the West Balkans, and like elsewhere oral history is often accepted as gospel truth until evidence shows otherwise. The danger comes when oral histories are used to to buttress historical claims and this happens all too frequently on all sides (including mine) which is why rigorous research is best.

I don't doubt that the Hoti of whom we're speaking might have arrived from Hercegovina after the Ottoman assault. The oral history tells us that they spoke Albanian since they eventually encountered "those that spoke like them". The area under consideration (Hercegovina/Montenegro/Southeastern Bosnia/Southeastern Serbia/Kosovo) saw lots of micro-migrations and larger migrations and was coloured by the presence of the Vlachs, many of whom by that time were already Slavicized.

When my 23andMe came back with J2B2*, it threw me for a loop but then again I started thinking that J2B2* might have to do with those least affected by Slavicization, or delayed Slavicization in that region.

Time will tell...in the meantime I lurk and enjoy the discussions here even though much of the technical aspects fly over my head.

Cinnamon orange
10-29-2015, 06:32 AM
Here's a question (doesn't involve DNA, so I hope it's not too off-topic) but is there any history of Albanians who spoke a Vulgar Latin during the Dark Ages akin to other Balkan Vlachs?

As I understand, Vlachs were Romaniazed Latin speaking Balkan inhabitants. Some concentrated in an area, the modern day Romanians and some spread out in smaller groupings and are now called Vlachs
Alabanians are not Vlachs though there are Vlachs in Albania, as in most of the Balkans.
From what I understand in most parts of the Balkans, the Vlachs were assimilated by the incoming Slavic migration, the main exception being the Romanians and small scattered remnants. The Greeks and Albanians kept their older languages not reverting to the form of Latin adopted in the Balkans, though I would assume there are loan words.
It would be interesting to see a DNA analysis of various Vlach groups in the Balkans, to see if they most closely resemble the populations they live among, for example, would Greek Vlachs pretty much be Greeks who speak another language.

Illyro-Vlach
10-29-2015, 10:50 AM
As I understand, Vlachs were Romaniazed Latin speaking Balkan inhabitants. Some concentrated in an area, the modern day Romanians and some spread out in smaller groupings and are now called Vlachs
Alabanians are not Vlachs though there are Vlachs in Albania, as in most of the Balkans.
From what I understand in most parts of the Balkans, the Vlachs were assimilated by the incoming Slavic migration, the main exception being the Romanians and small scattered remnants. The Greeks and Albanians kept their older languages not reverting to the form of Latin adopted in the Balkans, though I would assume there are loan words.
It would be interesting to see a DNA analysis of various Vlach groups in the Balkans, to see if they most closely resemble the populations they live among, for example, would Greek Vlachs pretty much be Greeks who speak another language.

The Vlach Question in the West Balkans is probably my favourite topic and what you've stated is certainly correct. I'm simply wondering if some Vlach tribes might have undergone a process of Albanization akin to how some were Slavicized.

eastara
10-29-2015, 11:11 AM
As I understand, Vlachs were Romaniazed Latin speaking Balkan inhabitants. Some concentrated in an area, the modern day Romanians and some spread out in smaller groupings and are now called Vlachs
Alabanians are not Vlachs though there are Vlachs in Albania, as in most of the Balkans.
From what I understand in most parts of the Balkans, the Vlachs were assimilated by the incoming Slavic migration, the main exception being the Romanians and small scattered remnants. The Greeks and Albanians kept their older languages not reverting to the form of Latin adopted in the Balkans, though I would assume there are loan words.
It would be interesting to see a DNA analysis of various Vlach groups in the Balkans, to see if they most closely resemble the populations they live among, for example, would Greek Vlachs pretty much be Greeks who speak another language.

There is a study about the Aromuns (Vlachs in the South West Balkans) and as the title goes "Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns"

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x/pdf

olive picker
10-29-2015, 02:39 PM
Anyone that happens to know what clans/tribes are the most frequent around Isniq area? It's in Decan, Strellc i Poshtem and very close to Montenegro.

Skerdilaidas
10-29-2015, 04:59 PM
Anyone that happens to know what clans/tribes are the most frequent around Isniq area? It's in Decan, Strellc i Poshtem and very close to Montenegro.

Isniq is majority Shala clan with a Thaēi minority.

Shala brotherhoods of Isniq: Niklekaj, Canaj and Prekaj. Families that descent from them: Balaj, Ahmetaj, Ahmetxhekaj, Hakaj, Haklaj, Januzaj, Tahirsylaj, Kukleci, Osėdautaj, Osmanaj, Tishukaj, Pajazitaj and Zukaj.

Thaēi: Bojkaj (according to the oral traditions of Shala, when they settled Isniq Bojkaj were there, and they were Orthodox).


Strellc is majority Krasniq. Unfortunately I don't have the details of families there.

J Man
10-30-2015, 04:30 PM
It is also interesting to note that there are two results form the Gruda tribe as well. Different brotherhoods with different haplogroups makes sense.

Gruda-Sinishtaj Brotherhood
Montenegro (Gruda Tribal Territory)
J2b J-M241


Gruda-Gjolaj Brotherhood
Montenegro (Gruda Tribal Territory)
E-V13

vettor
10-30-2015, 05:41 PM
There is a study about the Aromuns (Vlachs in the South West Balkans) and as the title goes "Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns"

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x/pdf

Battaglia paper of 2008 shows further splits to markers for all the Balkans and some others

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/figure/fig2/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19107149

Trojet
10-30-2015, 07:15 PM
Battaglia paper of 2008 shows further splits to markers for all the Balkans and some others

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/figure/fig2/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19107149

Unfortunately, the Battaglia 2008 study has nothing in regards to Aromuns/Vlachs. I have yet to see a good SNP resolution study on Aromuns/Vlachs to see how they really compare in Y-DNA to other Balkan ethnicities. Also, I don't know about Battaglia 2008 claiming I2a-M423 being a "Mesolithic Balkan marker".

J Man
10-30-2015, 08:53 PM
Unfortunately, the Battaglia 2008 study has nothing in regards to Aromuns/Vlachs. I have yet to see a good SNP resolution study on Aromuns/Vlachs to see how they really compare in Y-DNA to other Balkan ethnicities. Also, I don't know about Battaglia 2008 claiming I2a-M423 being a "Mesolithic Balkan marker".

Well Y-DNA haplogroup I2a certainly is a Mesolithic European Y-DNA marker. I do not know when the M423 mutation occurred though. Once Mesolithic Y-DNA from the Balkans is tested I can almost guarantee that some I2a will show up.

Trojet
10-30-2015, 09:14 PM
Well Y-DNA haplogroup I2a certainly is a Mesolithic European Y-DNA marker. I do not know when the M423 mutation occurred though. Once Mesolithic Y-DNA from the Balkans is tested I can almost guarantee that some I2a will show up.

Very true. I2a-M423 (www.yfull.com/tree/I-M423/) is certainly a Mesolithic European marker, but did it originate or spread out of the Balkans as the paper seems to suggest? Not so sure.

vettor
10-30-2015, 11:04 PM
Very true. I2a-M423 (www.yfull.com/tree/I-M423/) is certainly a Mesolithic European marker, but did it originate or spread out of the Balkans as the paper seems to suggest? Not so sure.

but I and J where once in union, the split was not in central Europe, if it was not in the southern balkans , then eastern Anatolian seems a good bet

Trojet
10-30-2015, 11:11 PM
but I and J where once in union, the split was not in central Europe, if it was not in the southern balkans , then eastern Anatolian seems a good bet

Yes. And IJ spilt 42600 ybp (www.yfull.com/tree/IJ/) lol. Anyways, I believe we're getting off topic here.

vettor
10-30-2015, 11:31 PM
Yes. And IJ spilt 42600 ybp (www.yfull.com/tree/IJ/) lol. Anyways, I believe we're getting off topic here.

yes, as I state the best is the battaglia 2008 data it contains the extreme borders of the balkans , the NE-Italians and the balkars of northern caucasus to compare, hehehe.

the paper clearly defines the albanian DNA , lol, what more do you want !!

Trojet
10-30-2015, 11:46 PM
yes, as I state the best is the battaglia 2008 data it contains the extreme borders of the balkans , the NE-Italians and the balkars of northern caucasus to compare, hehehe.

the paper clearly defines the albanian DNA , lol, what more do you want !!

I got no problem with the paper you linked, except for the part I mentioned earlier. It is a good paper from 2008, and it also contains Y-DNA data in regards to Albanians. I just didn't think it was a good idea to turn this thread into a debate about what happened some 42000 ybp lol.

I1-Z63
10-30-2015, 11:54 PM
42600 ybp (http://www.yfull.com/tree/IJ/)

off topic but whatever, how does this make any sense.

I1 FGC2435/Z2698 * Z2871/CTS11534 * Z2864/L509... 298 SNPs formed 27300 ybp, TMRCA 4700 ybp



formed 27300 ybp but TMRCA 4700 ybp? My subclade is aged at 3397 ybp

Trojet
10-31-2015, 12:03 AM
off topic but whatever, how does this make any sense.

I1 FGC2435/Z2698 * Z2871/CTS11534 * Z2864/L509... 298 SNPs formed 27300 ybp, TMRCA 4700 ybp



formed 27300 ybp but TMRCA 4700 ybp? My subclade is aged at 3397 ybp

It basically means that the first I1 mutation happened 27300 ybp, but all the presently surviving subclades of I1 descend from 4700 ybp, if that makes sense. TMRCA=Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor.

I1-Z63
10-31-2015, 12:08 AM
It basically means that the first I1 mutation happened 27300 ybp, but all the presently surviving subclades of I1 descend from 4700 ybp, if that makes sense. TMRCA=Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor.

Well that's a huge gap between the formation and TMRCA unlike other y-dnas from yfull. Majority died during the ice age or what, except for the Danish baby that had the mutation M253 from 4700 years ago lol

Trojet
10-31-2015, 12:12 AM
Well that's a huge gap between the formation and TMRCA unlike other y-dnas from yfull.

That probably means that I1 stayed isolated, and didn't expand much until 4700 ybp.

I1-Z63
10-31-2015, 12:14 AM
That probably means that I1 stayed isolated, and didn't expand much until 4700 ybp.

Nordvedt estimates I1-M253 at around 5000 ybp, where does yfull get 27300 ybp for I1-M253. Makes no sense.

Trojet
10-31-2015, 12:23 AM
Nordvedt estimates I1-M253 at around 5000 ybp, where does yfull get 27300 ybp for I1-M253. Makes no sense.

Norvedt is estimating the TMRCA of all presently surviving I1-M253 men at 5000 ybp (not the first I1 mutation) which is pretty close to YFull's 4700 ybp.

I1-Z63
10-31-2015, 12:24 AM
Norvedt is estimating the TMRCA of presently surviving I1-M253 subclades at 5000 ybp (not the first I1 mutation) which is pretty close to YFull's 4700 ybp.

Then that would be I-M170 or haplogroup I which is basically non-existant now, not I-M253 which is the true I1 that originated in present day Denmark. Everyone hatin' and lying about I1 :(

Trojet
10-31-2015, 12:33 AM
Then that would be I-M170 or haplogroup I which is basically non-existant now, not I-M253 which is the true I1 that originated in present day Denmark. Everyone hatin' and lying about I1 :(

Lol. Not sure what you mean by "everyone hatin' and lying about I1". I'm certainly not one :)

I1-Z63
10-31-2015, 12:58 AM
Lol. Not sure what you mean by "everyone hatin' and lying about I1". I'm certainly not one :)

I'm just saying lol, Like the supposed I1 found in western Hungary by Hungarian geneticists from the neolithic. There was no reference to the individual having the M253 marker. All I1 males will get a "I-M170" result with few markers, usually up to 12 markers, you need more markers to define I1. For example:

The males are probably I1, not I-M170(which is non existant, that would be a descendant of Cro-Magnon man!). the defining marker for I-M253 is 8 at DYS455 but the individuals only tested 12 markers.

http://i63.tinypic.com/10eolqv.jpg




Anyway, I wouldn't take a Hungarian study on y-dna as credited results. I probably know more than they do.

Megalophias
10-31-2015, 03:09 AM
I'm just saying lol, Like the supposed I1 found in western Hungary by Hungarian geneticists from the neolithic. There was no reference to the individual having the M253 marker. All I1 males will get a "I-M170" result with few markers, usually up to 12 markers, you need more markers to define I1.

Anyway, I wouldn't take a Hungarian study on y-dna as credited results. I probably know more than they do.

The ancient Hungarian individual did in fact test positive for M253. But since you know more than professional geneticists, I guess the result must be wrong.

I1-Z63
10-31-2015, 04:06 AM
The ancient Hungarian individual did in fact test positive for M253. But since you know more than professional geneticists, I guess the result must be wrong.

I1 is defined by a lot of SNPs. M253 is just one of them: http://www.yfull.com/tree/I1/

The ancient Hungarian individual must be more than just M253. Their study is meaningless.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-31-2015, 04:25 AM
I1 is defined by a lot of SNPs. M253 is just one of them: http://www.yfull.com/tree/I1/

The ancient Hungarian individual must be more than just M253. Their study is meaningless.

The study is not meaningless, but they only tested certain SNPs (specifically M170, P37.2, M253, M223 - I think), and did not do the new 'shotgun' sequencing which would enable us , them, anyone to look deeper.

I feel your frustration, but don't worry, more stuff on I1 will come up soon when the do more tests on Balkans and eastern Europe.

I1-Z63
10-31-2015, 04:37 AM
The study is not meaningless, but they only tested certain SNPs (specifically M170, P37.2, M253, M223 - I think)

You think? okay.


I feel your frustration, but don't worry, more stuff on I1 will come up soon when the do more tests on Balkans and eastern Europe.

Enlighten me as to what more stuff will come up soon

Gravetto-Danubian
10-31-2015, 04:38 AM
You think? okay.



Enlighten me as to what more stuff will come up soon

whats with the (bad) attitude ?

I1-Z63
10-31-2015, 04:43 AM
Hhhmm . Seems like you have a chip on your shoulder about something, little man.
Bye

Ditto lol

Megalophias
10-31-2015, 05:02 AM
I1 is defined by a lot of SNPs. M253 is just one of them: http://www.yfull.com/tree/I1/

The ancient Hungarian individual must be more than just M253. Their study is meaningless.
He is probably too old to belong to the *modern* I1 clade, but he does belong to the I1 branch. Other than that we don't know, he might be ancestral to modern I1, he might not be.

J Man
10-31-2015, 05:08 AM
Very true. I2a-M423 (www.yfull.com/tree/I-M423/) is certainly a Mesolithic European marker, but did it originate or spread out of the Balkans as the paper seems to suggest? Not so sure.

Hard to say exactly where I2a-M423 originated.

Arame
10-31-2015, 07:49 AM
Two questions

1. I remember from an old study that Kosovo Albanians have high level of R1b-M269 (xL23). I noticed that at last one Albanian is positive for the PF-7562 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-PF7562/) . Is there any information how much Kosovo Albanians are positive for PF7562 clade?

2. The second question is about R1b-L51 (xL11). The recent study showed quite significant levels among Albanians. Any idea what subclade it is? Can it be under this branch? http://yfull.com/tree/R-Z2111/

Bane
10-31-2015, 08:21 AM
2. The second question is about R1b-L51 (xL11). The recent study showed quite significant levels among Albanians. Any idea what subclade it is? Can it be under this branch? http://yfull.com/tree/R-Z2111/

Several people wrote that it was most likely a lab mistake, and that those "L51" samples were actually all R-ML23(x51) (maybe some R-M269(xL23)).

Trojet
10-31-2015, 11:05 AM
Two questions

1. I remember from an old study that Kosovo Albanians have high level of R1b-M269 (xL23). I noticed that at last one Albanian is positive for the PF-7562 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-PF7562/) . Is there any information how much Kosovo Albanians are positive for PF7562 clade?

2. The second question is about R1b-L51 (xL11). The recent study showed quite significant levels among Albanians. Any idea what subclade it is? Can it be under this branch? http://yfull.com/tree/R-Z2111/

Yes. I too have seen that study about us having a somewhat significant level of R1b-M269 (xL23) presumably R1b-PF7562, but so far we only have one such sample in our project. We will see in the future how this looks when we have a much bigger sample of Albanians tested.

The significant amount of R1b-L51 (xL11) that was detected in a recent study of Albanians in Albania, in fact seems to all belong to R1b-CTS9219 as per the STR signature of those samples. As discussed in another thread, there seemed to have been some kind of a lab error, or recurrence of L51 below CTS9219.

olive picker
10-31-2015, 02:04 PM
Isniq is majority Shala clan with a Thaēi minority.

Shala brotherhoods of Isniq: Niklekaj, Canaj and Prekaj. Families that descent from them: Balaj, Ahmetaj, Ahmetxhekaj, Hakaj, Haklaj, Januzaj, Tahirsylaj, Kukleci, Osėdautaj, Osmanaj, Tishukaj, Pajazitaj and Zukaj.

Thaēi: Bojkaj (according to the oral traditions of Shala, when they settled Isniq Bojkaj were there, and they were Orthodox).


Strellc is majority Krasniq. Unfortunately I don't have the details of families there.

I am pretty confused, I was always told since I was a kid that my paternal side is from Peja. Now I've found out (a while ago) that I'm from Strellc -- Strellc i Poshtem, around the Isniq area. What confuses me is that Strellc i Poshtem is in Decan and not in Peja, yet looking at my close relatives profiles they put "From Peja" on their profiles..

Has there been any notable migration from Peja to Decan or vice versa?

Maybe im thinking too far, he couldve just been born in either strellc or somewhere in peja, ill find out some day


I wish I could ask my family members, but I can't due to personal reasons I won't share in public :D

Skerdilaidas
10-31-2015, 06:30 PM
I am pretty confused, I was always told since I was a kid that my paternal side is from Peja. Now I've found out (a while ago) that I'm from Strellc -- Strellc i Poshtem, around the Isniq area. What confuses me is that Strellc i Poshtem is in Decan and not in Peja, yet looking at my close relatives profiles they put "From Peja" on their profiles..

Has there been any notable migration from Peja to Decan or vice versa?

Maybe im thinking too far, he couldve just been born in either strellc or somewhere in peja, ill find out some day


I wish I could ask my family members, but I can't due to personal reasons I won't share in public :D

Strellc is definitely Decan. As to why your cousins place Peja, I couldn't tell you. Maybe your family migrated from there to Strellc?

Skerdilaidas
10-31-2015, 07:07 PM
**New**

Gashi - Rrafsh i Dukagjinit, Kosova: J2b2 (23andme)

J Man
10-31-2015, 07:52 PM
**New**

Gashi - Rrafsh i Dukagjinit, Kosova: J2b2 (23andme)

What does the ''Dukagjinit'' part mean? From the Dukagjin highlands before migrating to Kosova?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukagjin_highlands

Silesian
10-31-2015, 08:12 PM
Yes. I too have seen that study about us having a somewhat significant level of R1b-M269 (xL23) presumably R1b-PF7562, but so far we only have one such sample in our project. We will see in the future how this looks when we have a much bigger sample of Albanians tested.

The significant amount of R1b-L51 (xL11) that was detected in a recent study of Albanians in Albania, in fact seems to all belong to R1b-CTS9219 as per the STR signature of those samples. As discussed in another thread, there seemed to have been some kind of a lab error, or recurrence of L51 below CTS9219.

Both R1b-PF-7562+[5000 YBP +/-] and R1b-CTS 9219+ [4200 YBP. +/-]are both negative for L51+[5600 YBP.+/-]
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/AlbanianBloodlines?iframe=yresults

Poland and Eastern Europe share some of the same R1b snp's as Albanians.
Take for example R1b-CTS-7822[6100 YBP+/-] - [4000 B.C. +/-]
R1b-CTS 7822>CTS-9219>BY 611[3000 YBP+/-] Albanian?
R1b-CTS 7822>CTS-9219>Y5587[4200 YBP+/-]>BY 593[1450 YBP+/- ]Eastern Europe

Here is smal's work; showing the branches.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/359/18912028790_29cd1d6fcf_h.jpg

I1-Z63
10-31-2015, 08:13 PM
What does the ''Dukagjinit'' part mean? From the Dukagjin highlands before migrating to Kosova?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukagjin_highlands

I believe its from Doclea, an ancient Roman settlement in present day Montenegro or romanized Illyrian tribe known as Docleatae.

Trojet
10-31-2015, 08:43 PM
Both R1b-PF-7562+[5000 YBP +/-] and R1b-CTS 9219+ [4200 YBP. +/-]are both negative for L51+[5600 YBP.+/-]
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/AlbanianBloodlines?iframe=yresults

Poland and Eastern Europe share some of the same R1b snp's as Albanians.
Take for example R1b-CTS-7822[6100 YBP+/-] - [4000 B.C. +/-]
R1b-CTS 7822>CTS-9219>BY 611[3000 YBP+/-] Albanian?
R1b-CTS 7822>CTS-9219>Y5587[4200 YBP+/-]>BY 593[1450 YBP+/- ]Eastern Europe

Here is smal's work; showing the branches.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/359/18912028790_29cd1d6fcf_h.jpg

Yes. Our R1b-CTS9219 seems to form its own subclade: BY611 or formerly "Balkan Cluster" different from other CTS9219 branches. According to the latest YFull estimate, R1b-CTS9219 (www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1450/) split/diversified into these subclades 4300 ybp.

We have quite a few examples in our project who are predicted as R1b-CTS9219>BY611.

Skerdilaidas
10-31-2015, 09:41 PM
What does the ''Dukagjinit'' part mean? From the Dukagjin highlands before migrating to Kosova?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukagjin_highlands

"Rrafshi i Dukagjinit" in English means Dukagjini Plateau, which basically is Western Kosova. In today's international maps this region is known as Metohija, it's known as such today because that is how Serbs referred to this region ever since they occupied it. To us Western Kosova is the Plateau of Dukagjin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metohija

The toponym Dukagjin derives from the title Duke and Albanian male name Gjin.

Silesian
10-31-2015, 09:53 PM
Yes. Our R1b-CTS9219 seems to form its own subclade: BY611 or formerly "Balkan Cluster" different from other CTS9219 branches. According to the latest YFull estimate, CTS9219 (www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1450/) split/diversified into these subclades 4300 ybp.

We have quite a few examples in our project who are predicted as R1b-CTS9219>BY611.

Here is a general idea on the possible position of clusters within R1b-CTS 7822>CTS 9219 and downstream snp's.
These are good test possibilities,for R1b-9219+ downstream markers.

BY-611
http://oi63.tinypic.com/x579k4.jpg

BY-593
http://oi64.tinypic.com/2mocot1.jpg

BY-250+251
http://oi65.tinypic.com/2d55xz.jpg

R1b-CTS-7763
http://oi68.tinypic.com/efqi4x.jpg

In relation to Samara and Yamnaya samples.
http://oi65.tinypic.com/294kmjb.jpg

Skerdilaidas
10-31-2015, 11:23 PM
**New**

Gashi - Kosova: J2b2-Z590

Skerdilaidas
10-31-2015, 11:29 PM
**New**

Berisha - Rrafsh i Dukagjinit - Peja, Kosova: E-V13

Trojet
11-11-2015, 01:55 AM
This is not a scientific sample of Albanians, but so far from Albanian members (FTDNA, iGenea, Geno 2.0) in our Albanian project at FTDNA we have the following results for Y-DNA:

E-V13: 5 members
R1b-Z2103: 5 members
R1b-PF7562: 1 member
J2b2-L283: 6 members
I2c: 1 member
I2a: 1 member

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about

J Man
11-11-2015, 03:41 PM
This is not a scientific sample of Albanians, but so far from Albanian members (FTDNA, iGenea, Geno 2.0) in our Albanian project at FTDNA we have the following results for Y-DNA:

E-V13: 5 members
R1b-Z2103: 5 members
R1b-PF7562: 1 member
J2b2-L283: 6 members
I2c: 1 member
I2a: 1 member

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about

It looks like there are now 9 J2b2 members in the Albanian Bloodlines Project. In this section anyway.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/results

Trojet
11-11-2015, 04:01 PM
It looks like there are now 9 J2b2 members in the Albanian Bloodlines Project. In this section anyway.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/results

Yes. In the Clan page we gather results from all testing companies, including 23andMe, so that's a total of 9.

But the number of actual J2b2 Albanian members tested through FTDNA/iGenea, and Geno2.0 in our project is 6. Thus far, E-V13 seems to be underrepresented at only 5 members. So any E-V13 Albanians tested at FTDNA/iGenea please join us to represent your haplogroup :P

J Man
11-13-2015, 01:33 PM
Yes. In the Clan page we gather results from all testing companies, including 23andMe, so that's a total of 9.

But the number of actual J2b2 Albanian members tested through FTDNA/iGenea, and Geno2.0 in our project is 6. Thus far, E-V13 seems to be underrepresented at only 5 members. So any E-V13 Albanians tested at FTDNA/iGenea please join us to represent your haplogroup :P

This book looks like quite an interesting one. It is interesting to see how the Y-DNA results of the different tribes and clans turn out as we have been seeing in your project.

http://www.ibtauris.com/Books/Humanities/History/The%20Tribes%20of%20Albania%20History%20Society%20 and%20Culture.aspx?menuitem=%7BBCE817D7-C139-4A8E-AAFE-902771DEE8A3%7D

''Northern Albania and Montenegro are the only regions in Europe to have retained a true tribal society up to the mid-twentieth century. This book provides the first scholarly investigation of this tribal society, a pioneer work that offers a detailed survey of all the major Albanian-speaking tribes in Albania, Montenegro and Kosovo. Robert Elsie provides comprehensive material on the 69 different tribes, including data on their locations, religious affiliations, tribal structures and relations, population statistics, tribal folklore, legends and history. Also included are excerpts from the works of prominent nineteenth and early-twentieth century writers, such as Edith Durham and Johann Georg von Hahn, who travelled through the tribal regions, as well as short biographies on prominent figures linked to the tribes. As the first book of its kind, The Tribes of Albania will be of interest to scholars and students of the Balkans, of southeastern European anthropology, ethnography and history.''

Skerdilaidas
11-15-2015, 12:04 AM
This book looks like quite an interesting one. It is interesting to see how the Y-DNA results of the different tribes and clans turn out as we have been seeing in your project.

http://www.ibtauris.com/Books/Humanities/History/The%20Tribes%20of%20Albania%20History%20Society%20 and%20Culture.aspx?menuitem=%7BBCE817D7-C139-4A8E-AAFE-902771DEE8A3%7D

''Northern Albania and Montenegro are the only regions in Europe to have retained a true tribal society up to the mid-twentieth century. This book provides the first scholarly investigation of this tribal society, a pioneer work that offers a detailed survey of all the major Albanian-speaking tribes in Albania, Montenegro and Kosovo. Robert Elsie provides comprehensive material on the 69 different tribes, including data on their locations, religious affiliations, tribal structures and relations, population statistics, tribal folklore, legends and history. Also included are excerpts from the works of prominent nineteenth and early-twentieth century writers, such as Edith Durham and Johann Georg von Hahn, who travelled through the tribal regions, as well as short biographies on prominent figures linked to the tribes. As the first book of its kind, The Tribes of Albania will be of interest to scholars and students of the Balkans, of southeastern European anthropology, ethnography and history.''

He did a very good job compiling all that info in a book, but to my opinion, there is still room for improvement. He has few things mixed up and some things that he just decided to not include, for what reason, I am not too sure. A moderator from our project contacted Elsi about it, and he did not give us a reasonable explanation, except saying that we should in future refine it with the knowledge we have gathered.

The biggest flaw in this book is when he says that Krasniqi, Hoti and the other migrants from Herzegovina without a doubt were Slavic in speech when they migrated to North Albania. He totally goes against what Hahn and Edith recorded from the Highlanders themselves, which obviously they never did say they were Slavic speaking. Hoti and Krasniqi are turning up to be almost all J2b2 with a minority E-V13, basically matching other Albanian clans/populations. He speculates in few other instances in similar fashion without any concrete proof.

J Man
11-15-2015, 01:42 AM
He did a very good job compiling all that info in a book, but to my opinion, there is still room for improvement. He has few things mixed up and some things that he just decided to not include, for what reason, I am not too sure. A moderator from our project contacted Elsi about it, and he did not give us a reasonable explanation, except saying that we should in future refine it with the knowledge we have gathered.

The biggest flaw in this book is when he says that Krasniqi, Hoti and the other migrants from Herzegovina without a doubt were Slavic in speech when they migrated to North Albania. He totally goes against what Hahn and Edith recorded from the Highlanders themselves, which obviously they never did say they were Slavic speaking. Hoti and Krasniqi are turning up to be almost all J2b2 with a minority E-V13, basically matching other Albanian clans/populations. He speculates in few other instances in similar fashion without any concrete proof.

I agree that it is highly unlikely that the Hoti and Kraniqi tribes were Slavic in speech when they migrated to North Albania. It is far more likely that they have always been Gheg Albanian speakers I think. Now I find this paragraph from thsi link to be quite interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)

''In the second half of the 15th century (during the Ottoman conquest), Serbs of Bosnia were pushed southward by the Ottoman armies, eventually being pushed to Herzegovina by 1463.[citation needed] After the Ottoman conquest of Herzegovina in 1476, of Albania in 1478, and the surrender of Shkodėr by the Venetians in 1479, according to legend, a man named Keq Preka and his four sons moved southward from the Herzegovinian highlands to escape the mass migration of Slavs.[citation needed] They and many of the other Albanian-speaking peoples in the Herzegovina area kept moving until they found an area where they found a population that spoke the same language as theirs (most likely a form of Gheg Albanian).[3]''

Does that paragraph refer to the ''New Hoti'' migration from Herzegovina to North Albania?

Skerdilaidas
11-15-2015, 03:46 PM
I agree that it is highly unlikely that the Hoti and Kraniqi tribes were Slavic in speech when they migrated to North Albania. It is far more likely that they have always been Gheg Albanian speakers I think. Now I find this paragraph from thsi link to be quite interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoti_(tribe)

''In the second half of the 15th century (during the Ottoman conquest), Serbs of Bosnia were pushed southward by the Ottoman armies, eventually being pushed to Herzegovina by 1463.[citation needed] After the Ottoman conquest of Herzegovina in 1476, of Albania in 1478, and the surrender of Shkodėr by the Venetians in 1479, according to legend, a man named Keq Preka and his four sons moved southward from the Herzegovinian highlands to escape the mass migration of Slavs.[citation needed] They and many of the other Albanian-speaking peoples in the Herzegovina area kept moving until they found an area where they found a population that spoke the same language as theirs (most likely a form of Gheg Albanian).[3]''

Does that paragraph refer to the ''New Hoti'' migration from Herzegovina to North Albania?

Yes, they are talking about the New Hoti and Krasniq.

J Man
11-15-2015, 04:45 PM
Yes, they are talking about the New Hoti and Krasniq.

In this link Elsie mentions that he thinks Keq Preka was a Bosnian Slav. I do not agree with this personally. Personally I think that Keq Preka was most likely Albanian. Anyway he says that Keq Preqa lived around the year 1520. In the Wikipedia link above it looks like Keq Preka lived more so around the year 1480. At least that is when he seems to have moved south from the Herzegovinian highlands. When do you think Keq Preka most likely migrated from the Herzegovinian highlands to North Albania and founded the ''New Hoti'' tribe?

https://books.google.ca/books?id=-EzWCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=Elsie+Hoti+Keq+Preka&source=bl&ots=-2J_vHwlc6&sig=BFUvTgFcd9S2ji6-8YsJA7O_6rM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAWoVChMIpfSGsO-SyQIVSJUeCh3eMw5X#v=onepage&q=Elsie%20Hoti%20Keq%20Preka&f=false

Skerdilaidas
11-15-2015, 05:53 PM
In this link Elsie mentions that he thinks Keq Preka was a Bosnian Slav. I do not agree with this personally. Personally I think that Keq Preka was most likely Albanian. Anyway he says that Keq Preqa lived around the year 1520. In the Wikipedia link above it looks like Keq Preka lived more so around the year 1480. At least that is when he seems to have moved south from the Herzegovinian highlands. When do you think Keq Preka most likely migrated from the Herzegovinian highlands to North Albania and founded the ''New Hoti'' tribe?

https://books.google.ca/books?id=-EzWCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=Elsie+Hoti+Keq+Preka&source=bl&ots=-2J_vHwlc6&sig=BFUvTgFcd9S2ji6-8YsJA7O_6rM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAWoVChMIpfSGsO-SyQIVSJUeCh3eMw5X#v=onepage&q=Elsie%20Hoti%20Keq%20Preka&f=false

He is obviously wrong, hence why I felt the need to mention such detail. Their names alone tell us they weren't Slav without even including other details, such as their religion, traditions, tattooing, and the Albanian dialect they brought from Bosnia. If they hypothetically were Slavs, they only fit the bill as Croats from that region, because they came as Catholics. Which is very unlikely when you add all the details. Names such as "Keqa" which mean the "bad one" or "rough one" in Albanian is actually very common name and a nick name. I don't even need to elaborate on the "Gheg" at all, because as you know, one of our main dialect derives from it, the Gheg dialect. I haven't seen Slavs with such names, especially from Bosnia. What you quoted on your previous post is Nopca's opinion, and what he thought of their traditions, which even Edith elaborators later on in what I am about to post. I agree with the dates Edith calculates:


"The tribe of Hoti," said the old man, "has many relations. Thirteen generations ago, one Gheg Lazar came to this land with his four sons, and it is from these that we of Hoti descend. I cannot tell the year in which they came. It was soon after the building of the church of Gruda, and that is now 380 years ago. Gruda came before we did. Gheg was one of four brothers. The other three were Piper, Vaso, and Krasni. From these descend the Piperi and Vasojevichi of Montenegro and the Krasnichi of North Albania. So we are four–all related–the Lazakechi (we of Hoti), the Piperkechi, the Vasokechi, and the Kraskechi. They all came from Bosnia to escape the Turks, but from what part I do not know. Yes, they were all Christians. Krasnichi only turned Moslem much later."

Of these four large tribes, of common origin, Piperi and Vasojevich are now Serbophone and Orthodox. Piperi threw in its lot with Montenegro in 1790, but whether or not it was then Serbophone I have failed to learn. Half of Vasojevich was given to Montenegro after the Treaty of Berlin, the other portion still remains under Turkish rule. Vasojevich considers itself wholly Serb, and is bitter foe to the Albanophone tribes on its borders. Krasnich is Albanophone and fanatically Moslem; Hoti is Albanophone and Roman Catholic.


The date three hundred and eighty years ago gives us 1528. In 1463 the Turks conquered and killed the last king of Bosnia; but the whole land was not finally incorporated in the Turkish Empire till 1590 (about). The traditional date of emigration falls well within the period when the Turkish occupation was spreading, so is probably approximately correct. A large communal family, with flocks, would be some time on the way.

The old man said modestly that if I were really interested in his family, he would like to give me his family tree, and did so,–from Gheg Laz, through his second son, Djun Gheg, down to his own great-grandson, a strapping child, the apple of his great-grandsire's eye.

"I have been told," said I, "that Nikaj is also a brother of Hoti?"

"No, no," said the old man, "not brother. But part of Nikaj is related to Krasnichi by a later generation, and so to us also, and we cannot marry them. They come from the houses of Bijeli-Krasnich and Mulo-Smaint. Shaban Benaku, the celebrated chief of Krasnich, is straight from Krasni, brother of Gheg Laz, my forefather. And half the tribe of Triepshi, the stem of Bakechi, is of Hoti blood. We cannot marry them. The other half–the Bekaj–we can. They are not our blood; they come from Kopliku. Triepshi belongs to Montenegro now, but is all Catholic. When Gheg Laz and his sons came here, there were already people here."

Some one suggested they were Shkyar (Slavs), but the old man was positive they were not. "They were a very old people. No one knew whence they came. Some said they were like Tartars. My grandfather said they were very strong and active, and could leap over six horses at once, and that they ate acorns and horse-flesh. Twelve houses in Hoti are descended from them, and with these we can marry. They are other blood. They are called Anas." (Anas, in the Albanian dictionary of the Bashkimi society, means "indigenous.")

But the idea of marrying within the stock Gheg Laz seemed to him so impossible, he would not admit that even in the remote future it could ever take place. "We are brothers and sisters. It would be a great sin."

This detailed story of tribal origin and relationship, straight from native lips, is of much interest. Most of the Albanian, also most of the Montenegrin, tribes have a similar tale–the flight of their ancestor to escape Turkish persecution.

We left Bridzha for Gruda at 5.30 A.M., with the old man as guide. The track went over loose rocks and stones along a steep mountain side. Then came a descent over the other side, into a wooded, cultivated hollow, where stood Hoti's second church, that of the men of Treboina, who trace their descent from Pyetar Gheg, fourth son of Gheg Laz."

J Man
11-15-2015, 07:12 PM
He is obviously wrong, hence why I felt the need to mention such detail. Their names alone tell us they weren't Slav without even including other details, such as their religion, traditions, tattooing, and the Albanian dialect they brought from Bosnia. If they hypothetically were Slavs, they only fit the bill as Croats from that region, because they came as Catholics. Which is very unlikely when you add all the details. Names such as "Keqa" which mean the "bad one" or "rough one" in Albanian is actually very common name and a nick name. I don't even need to elaborate on the "Gheg" at all, because as you know, one of our main dialect derives from it, the Gheg dialect. I haven't seen Slavs with such names, especially from Bosnia. What you quoted on your previous post is Nopca's opinion, and what he thought of their traditions, which even Edith elaborators later on in what I am about to post. I agree with the dates Edith calculates:

Interesting thank you. Of course much more testing is needed but there probably is a good chance that Keq Preka belonged to haplogroup J2b2. I am probably going way out on a limb by saying that though.

Cinnamon orange
11-15-2015, 08:58 PM
Just to chime in, as a person of partial Arbereshe descent, I was curious on 23andme to get a few matches in places like Serbia and Bosnia. We are supposed to descend from Tosk Albanians, though the group of soldiers that founded our initial settlement grouping were part of Skanderbegs army and I suppose some could have been from north or central Albania.

Trojet
11-15-2015, 10:39 PM
Just to chime in, as a person of partial Arbereshe descent, I was curious on 23andme to get a few matches in places like Serbia and Bosnia. We are supposed to descend from Tosk Albanians, though the group of soldiers that founded our initial settlement grouping were part of Skanderbegs army and I suppose some could have been from north or central Albania.

If I was you, I would consider testing your Arbereshe paternal line through FTDNA (Y-DNA37 or above) and see how you compare to J2b2 Albanians already tested. We don't have a lot of samples right now, but in the future if we have enough samples, we might be able to have an idea where your lineage comes from. Who knows, you might even be close to me :)
If you ever do test, you can order through our Albanian project for a $20 discount and be automatically joined: https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?group=AlbanianBloodlines&code=B11086

Cinnamon orange
11-15-2015, 10:46 PM
If I was you, I would consider testing your Arbereshe paternal line through FTDNA (Y-DNA37 or above) and see how you compare to J2b2 Albanians already tested. We don't have a lot of samples right now, but in the future if we have enough samples, we might be able to have an idea where your lineage comes from. Who knows, you might even be close to me :)
If you ever do test, you can order through our Albanian project for a $20 discount and be automatically joined: https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?group=AlbanianBloodlines&code=B11086

Thanks but that will be likely only if one of my brothers test there. My father tested at 23andme only at my request. He is not into DNA and such. My mother passed away when I was an infant and I wanted to see what came from which side of my family so he agreed. I have two half brothers tested on 23andme and maybe at some point one will do the more complete Y.

Skerdilaidas
11-16-2015, 01:55 AM
Just to chime in, as a person of partial Arbereshe descent, I was curious on 23andme to get a few matches in places like Serbia and Bosnia. We are supposed to descend from Tosk Albanians, though the group of soldiers that founded our initial settlement grouping were part of Skanderbegs army and I suppose some could have been from north or central Albania.

At 23andme you are matched autosomally. I get many cousins from Greece, Montenegro, Bosnia, Serbia and even few from Poland. All it takes is if my ancestors took a Slavic bride, for a Slav to have assimilated into Albanian or an Albanian that assimilated into the Slavic ethnos to create such links atusomally. We do have small percentages of I2a Dinaric and some R1a, and Tosks actually have them in higher numbers, so there is a bigger chance for you to get more cousins on the Slavic sphere then us Ghegs, if your Arbereshe ancestors were Tosks (which most likely they were). As for Greeks, it's pretty simple, many Arvanits assimilated there.

olive picker
11-16-2015, 04:31 PM
Just to chime in, as a person of partial Arbereshe descent, I was curious on 23andme to get a few matches in places like Serbia and Bosnia. We are supposed to descend from Tosk Albanians, though the group of soldiers that founded our initial settlement grouping were part of Skanderbegs army and I suppose some could have been from north or central Albania.

Goes to show how few albanian samples they have, lol.

Tįltos
11-17-2015, 01:44 AM
Just to chime in, as a person of partial Arbereshe descent, I was curious on 23andme to get a few matches in places like Serbia and Bosnia. We are supposed to descend from Tosk Albanians, though the group of soldiers that founded our initial settlement grouping were part of Skanderbegs army and I suppose some could have been from north or central Albania.

I'm happy to tell you my mother picked up another autosomal match on FTDNA recently. Today they confirmed for me they have ancestry from San Nicola dell'Alto! I think we might be able to start our own Arbereshe project with the surprising amount of matches we have from our little village. :)

Cinnamon orange
11-17-2015, 09:01 AM
Goes to show how few albanian samples they have, lol.

Not sure, a match is a match. Even if there are few Albanians we are still matching to these other groups. I know about the Arvanites in Greece.
As for Bosnia, in a book I read ages ago, maybe one of the Edith Durham books, it said, that there were Albanian tribes in Bosnia and environs. Maybe they have assimilated today.

The genes can go either way, Slavs in the Albanian gene pool or Albanian genes in the Slavs.