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Abou
02-14-2015, 03:25 PM
Dear All,

I am posting today a paper that summaries my thoughts on the R1b origin in Western Europe. These thoughts were around for some time and I am bit surprised that, to my humble knowledge, none one has put forward (at least formally) this idea. Needless to say that this is, at this stage, a pure hypothesis like any other. And for that matter don't expect that it will cover or answer everything. I just organized my thoughts on the question and hope this will enrich the debate about the origin of R1b. I expect that most people will not agree with this it, but please disagree with me for the right reasons. After all, we come from where come from, we like it or not.

Click on the link below to download it:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8HvlHcJnaLgX0dSbU53bVRZNG8/view?usp=sharing

Enjoy the reading

Bobo Manbuck
02-22-2015, 11:05 PM
I agree that is a serious possibility.

tamilgangster
02-22-2015, 11:21 PM
I think is it very possible. Various north african populations have elevated levels of WHG component at around 15%, which is almost nonexistant in other MENA populations. THis is possibly the source of blonde hair among atlas berber groups such as kabyles and riffians.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8pm8sVcHqceiNFJMO082kxaBF5ePr4__bAK05VQRFw/edit#gid=62882571

Jean M
02-23-2015, 11:06 AM
I am posting today a paper that summaries my thoughts on the R1b origin in Western Europe. These thoughts were around for some time and I am bit surprised that, to my humble knowledge, none one has put forward (at least formally) this idea.

The idea is not entirely new. As you know (since you refer to him) the Bell Beaker Blogger has been promoting it, possibly encouraged by Jan Turek's idea of a pottery connection, or the idea favoured by geneticists until a few years ago that R1b expanded from Iberia, or the suggestion by some amateurs that R1b arrived in Iberia via North Africa. I'll take your points as briefly as I can:


I agree that Bell Beaker people were overwhelmingly R1b, that the population surged in Europe after the boom and bust of the Neolithic, and that we can attribute the surge to new Copper Age arrivals. I agree that Bell Beaker pottery arrived in Central Europe from Portugal (probably with R1b-DF27). All these points are made in Ancestral Journeys (2013). However:
The earliest R1b1* has been found in a hunter-gatherer buried near the Sok River, Samara, Russia c. 5650-5555 BC. Most importantly the latter carried ANE, the genome-wide component which appears earliest in a four-year-old boy buried at Mal'ta in Siberia 24,000 years ago, who carried Y-DNA R*. The recent paper Haak et al. 2015 produced overwhelming evidence that ANE first arrived on the eastern fringes of Europe in the Late Mesolithic (with R1a1 and R1b1) and did not appear in most of Europe (that includes Iberia) until the Copper Age. It was spread by the Yamnaya people and their descendants. It was found in Corded Ware and Bell Beaker people in Germany. Testing of remains in Bell Beaker sites in Spain has been carried out, though not published in Haak et al 2015.
There is a clear Yamnaya trail up the Danube from the steppe. One trail of Yamnaya influences then leads from the Carpathian Basin along the Mediterranean to Iberia. It is along that trail that a clear link is made to Bell Beaker.
The discovery of an R1b1* in the Neolithic Pyrenees (5178-5066 BC) re-opened hope for some members of this forum that we can return to the old idea of R1b out of Iberia, but it really is dead as the dodo. That sample is probably V88 or related. R1b1 seems to have bifurcated in the Mesolithic. One lineage which became V88 entered Western Asia and spread into Africa with the Neolithic. See http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mediterraneans.shtml#Farmers
There is mounting evidence of a route taken by early farmers from the Near East via North Africa to Iberia. See Ancestral Journeys (2013), p. 88. So R1b-V88 could have arrived in Iberia by that route, or even with Cardial Ware, though that seems less likely.
MtDNA H overall is not most diverse in the Maghreb. Only H3 is most diverse in North Africa. It is now clear from ancient DNA that mtDNA H arose in the Near East, where it appear in Neolithic Syria 6800-6000 BC. It spread with farmers into Europe. Unfortunately the only ancient DNA that we have from Morocco was published in 2005, when techniques were far less reliable than they are today and prone to contamination. So they are best disregarded. I can't see why the pattern in North Africa would be different from Europe. Farming spread into this region from the Near East. H3 could have entered Iberia from North Africa.
I am not aware of any radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker in Morocco. Jan Turek does not give any. I would not be at all surprised to find that it is almost as old as that in Portugal, as I imagine that Portugal was the source. That would certainly make it earlier than most places in Europe. But that does not make Morocco the source.

jeanL
02-24-2015, 12:33 AM
I think is it very possible. Various north african populations have elevated levels of WHG component at around 15%, which is almost nonexistant in other MENA populations. THis is possibly the source of blonde hair among atlas berber groups such as kabyles and riffians.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8pm8sVcHqceiNFJMO082kxaBF5ePr4__bAK05VQRFw/edit#gid=62882571

The higher amounts of WHG in NorthWest African population is not due to whatever trace amount they might have of R1b-M269+ derived haplogroups, but by the amount of mt-DNA Haplogroup H that they carry, specially H1 and H3, which likely brought a lot of WHG related ancestry during the Ibero-Maurasian period. Since mt-DNA H has been found in both Mesolithic remains from Karelia, and Spain it is likely that it was they main vector for the WHG component in NW Africans.

tamilgangster
02-24-2015, 01:21 AM
The higher amounts of WHG in NorthWest African population is not due to whatever trace amount they might have of R1b-M269+ derived haplogroups, but by the amount of mt-DNA Haplogroup H that they carry, specially H1 and H3, which likely brought a lot of WHG related ancestry during the Ibero-Maurasian period. Since mt-DNA H has been found in both Mesolithic remains from Karelia, and Spain it is likely that it was they main vector for the WHG component in NW Africans.

True, that makes more sense than WHG being R1B related. Based on that info its very unlikely that R1B has any north african affinities The WHG found in northafricans is most likely related to the afalou type. Mt DNA H is 20,000-30000 years old,and judging, by the fact it is nonexistant in any western mediteranian populations, It is very possible, that MTDNA haplogroup H came originated from north africa and entered europe through Iberia

newtoboard
02-24-2015, 01:26 AM
Not sure how WHG in North Africa being related to the migration of a WHG rich population somehow equals H originating in a WHG rich population. These aren't even close to being the same thing.

And of course there is equally bad assumption that H originated in N. Africa that has shown up as well.

Jean M
02-24-2015, 11:10 AM
It is very possible, that MTDNA haplogroup H came originated from north africa and entered europe through Iberia

It isn't remotely possible that H originated in North Africa. As I said earlier, mtDNA H has been found in Neolithic remains in Syria. It entered Europe with farmers as we see in all the satisfactorily tested ancient DNA. (We can disregard H in post-Neolithic non-farmers in Europe as evidence of a Mesolithic origin. It isn't. If H is there after farming and not before farming, the logic is clear.)

It is perfectly possible that some H3 entered Iberia from North Africa in the Neolithic (H having arrived in North Africa from the Levant.)

Jean M
02-24-2015, 11:18 AM
North Africans are a complex mixture of populations, several of which are the same kind of people who entered Europe, or actually European. This explains why North Africans are so similar genetically to Europeans, though they have more Sub-Saharan ancestry, most of which is probably relatively recent i.e. came with the Arab slave trade.

There were various waves into North Africa from the Levant, starting in the Palaeolithic, with hunter-gatherers carrying mtDNA U. In Europe this became U4 and U5. In North Africa this became U6. The earliest Upper Palaeolithic industry in North Africa is the Dabban, so similar to earlier Near Eastern stone tool-kits as to make its origin obvious. It spread no further west than Cyrenaïca.

Climate change made Mediterranean Europe increasingly attractive to man and beast. By 26,500 years ago glaciers had reached their maximal extent across the globe and remained so until 20,000-19,000 years ago. As the ice advanced over Northern Europe, signs of human settlement increased three-fold in the Franco-Cantabrian forest belt. This area was clearly a major refuge. By contrast the expanded Sahara made most of North Africa a hyperarid wasteland. From the Atlas Mountains eastwards to Arabia was one gigantic desert, broken only by the Nile. The high Atlas though would capture rainclouds blown in from the Atlantic, and keep the coastal strips to its west and north well watered. Here there was forest-steppe similar to that in most of the northern Mediterranean.

Could the Maghreb have tempted some chilled Europeans across the Strait of Gibraltar? The Iberomaurusian culture suddenly appeared in this North-West African refuge around 20,000 years ago, when the last Ice Age was at its height, and spread eastwards along the Mediterranean shore, reaching Cyrenaïca by 18,000 BC. An astonishing variety of origins has been proposed for this culture, including arrivals from Iberia. It is not impossible that under glacial conditions some Iberians took advantage of the lower sea level to flee across the Strait of Gibraltar to North-West Africa, contributing a small amount of mtDNA haplogroup U5b1b to the present-day Berbers.

This seems one possible source of WHG in the Maghreb, though there has been a lot of traffic between Iberia and the Maghreb over the millennia since then.

For more and references see http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mediterraneans.shtml

jeanL
02-24-2015, 02:43 PM
True, that makes more sense than WHG being R1B related. Based on that info its very unlikely that R1B has any north african affinities The WHG found in northafricans is most likely related to the afalou type. Mt DNA H is 20,000-30000 years old,and judging, by the fact it is nonexistant in any western mediteranian populations, It is very possible, that MTDNA haplogroup H came originated from north africa and entered europe through Iberia

It very unlikely that mt-DNA Haplogroup H originated in North Africa, given that its precursors have been found in Europe, and also both mt-DNA haplogroup H and mt-DNA Haplogroup H6 were both found in Magdalenian remains in Cantabria, Spain. Then we also have plain H found in Mesolithic remains from Guipuzcoa and Karelia. Now keep in mind that some people question the results of Haplogroup H6 and H in Magdalenian remains, namely because they were acquired using HVR-I and RFLP, but by the same token are the remains from the Neolithic in the Near East, i.e. Fernandez.et.al.2014 identified the Haplogroup H using the coding mutations H 7028C, and HVR-I 16256T for one remain and 7028C, and HVR-I 16294T for the other. The Cantabrian Hunters were assigned to H on the basis of 73G, 16093, 16362, and RFLP for the H6 remains, and rCRS in HVRI, G73A and RFLP for the H remains. We also have the Guipuzcoa remains that are 7028C and 16309, yet they are H(xH1,H3).

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Lacanetal2011-Table-9.jpg (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Lacanetal2011-Table-9.jpg.html)

Again mt-DNA H3 likely originated somewhere in Western Europe, and it is not actually more diverse in North African than Europe, instead the study that showed that, if I recall correctly compared the whole region of North African to every region of Iberia, or subregion even, so it was apples and oranges. In fact looking into the evidence mt-DNA U5 the other Mesolithic haplogroup commonly found in Europe is very rare in North Africa, and given the presence of mt-DNA H in the Near East but the rarity of H1 and H3 it seems that the last two are the ones associated with the spread of the WHG in North Africa. This doesn't mean that H1 and H3 are correlated with WHG in Europe though where more haplogroups that are potential carriers of WHG are found, and not just on the maternal side.

Jean M
02-24-2015, 06:17 PM
both mt-DNA haplogroup H and mt-DNA Haplogroup H6 were both found in Magdalenian remains in Cantabria, Spain.

My namesake - I'm tired of arguing with you over this. There is no point. But for the sake of newcomers to the topic, I have to point out some things that I was told soon after I arrived on the old DNA forums years ago.


Early aDNA studies kept on producing results that they claimed were mtDNA H, which was triumphantly declared to be proof of genetic continuity in Europe from the Palaeolithic onwards. These studies were worthless. At best they were finding no differences from CRS in a decayed and fragmentary scrap of one small part of the mtDNA genome. That could as easily be U as H, but would have been more truthfully declared a non-result. At worst the result actually came from modern DNA, with which museum bones are generously contaminated. No study prior to about 2005 is reliable. Even much more recent studies may not be. That is why it is very important to replicate results. If they can't be replicated by other labs and test teams, then they cannot be relied upon.
Haplogroup H is not old enough to have entered Europe in the Palaeolithic. The most recent estimate I have by me is from Behar 2012, which makes H 12,846 years old.


H in Europe is younger than that. Europeans with H-type mtDNAs have on average six differences in their coding region, while U-type mtDNAs have on average 18 differences. That suggests a much older population expansion in U than in H. MtDNA H shows a dramatic growth spurt around 9,000 years ago (7000 BC) with the spread of farming into Europe. See Fu, Rudan, Pääbo and Krause 2012.

jeanL
02-24-2015, 06:53 PM
My namesake - I'm tired of arguing with you over this. There is no point. But for the sake of newcomers to the topic, I have to point out some things that I was told soon after I arrived on the old DNA forums years ago.

Early aDNA studies kept on producing results that they claimed were mtDNA H, which was triumphantly declared to be proof of genetic continuity in Europe from the Palaeolithic onwards. These studies were worthless. At best they were finding no differences from CRS in a decayed and fragmentary scrap of one small part of the mtDNA genome. That could as easily be U as H, but would have been more truthfully declared a non-result. At worst the result actually came from modern DNA, with which museum bones are generously contaminated. No study prior to about 2005 is reliable. Even much more recent studies may not be. That is why it is very important to replicate results. If they can't be replicated by other labs and test teams, then they cannot be relied upon.

The Magdalenian results do not come from an early study, Hervella.et.al.2012 (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0034417)<= was published in 2012. Now I decided not to address you because for once I am tired of the same BS from you. So yes for the sake of newcomers to the topic they should all know that mitochondrial DNA Haplogroup H was indeed found in Magdalenia Cantabria, and that it was found in Mesolithic Guipuzcoa and Karelia. Now as I said in the previous post, the results aren't any less valid that the findings from the Near East given that both used HVR-I +coding mutations and not full mitochondrial sequencing. So I'm just leveling the plain field, if you want to discard the results from Cantabria, and Guipuzcoa based on the methodology then say goodbye to 90% of your database because they used the same methodology.


Haplogroup H is not old enough to have entered Europe in the Palaeolithic. The most recent estimate I have by me is from Behar 2012, which makes H 12,846 years old.


Cherrypicking a single study doesn't change the outcome of the following study calibrated using ancient DNA.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-71JYGXNrukY/UUyZ07GOx5I/AAAAAAAAItk/g4kxvVCtEgc/s1600/mtdna_ages.png

A Revised Timescale for Human Evolution Based on Ancient Mitochondrial Genomes (http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(13)00215-7)


H in Europe is younger than that. Europeans with H-type mtDNAs have on average six differences in their coding region, while U-type mtDNAs have on average 18 differences. That suggests a much older population expansion in U than in H. MtDNA H shows a dramatic growth spurt around 9,000 years ago (7000 BC) with the spread of farming into Europe. See Fu, Rudan, Pääbo and Krause 2012.

Haplogroup H and Haplogroup U are not even at the same phylogenetic level, so that's comparing apples and oranges. Nonetheless even if they got their timing right, how does experiencing a growth spur 7000 BC in any way or form translates into direction of movement, in fact, if anything ancient DNA results from Neolithic Central European remains show haplogroup H to be <20% all throughout the early and middle Neolithic, it wasn't until the Beaker times that H increased, so their growth spur is not found in any ancient DNA data.

So sure H came from the Middle East as long as we ignore Hervella.et.al.2012(They fudged the results, sure that works!), Marie Lacan thesis from 2013(Even though it produce clears results for H in Guipuzcoa in 6200 BC, nah they are contaminated! Never mind the cave was discovered in 1998), the Karelian findings(Neolithic immigrant in an otherwise autosomally looking EHG community). Then let's keep pushing the Behar.et.al.2012 paper of RSRS, and ignore the Fu.et.al.2013 paper based on ancient DNA. I forgot, something like that happened with the whole farmers brought light skin to Europe? But then we couldn't keep ignoring the Motala12, StoraForva results for any longer, but hey it was all for a good cause, you know, those darn racists that think everything Northern is better than Southern, so its ok to lie and fudge results as long as it is for a good cause! (This FYI is big SARCASM for all of you who don't get it.)

Now Jean your move, you keep bringing up the same old charade, I'm going to knock it down with the evidence!

If it seems like dejavu, it because it is:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?533-Upper-Paleolithic-Mesolithic-European-mtDNA-Haplogroups&p=44278&viewfull=1#post44278

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?533-Upper-Paleolithic-Mesolithic-European-mtDNA-Haplogroups&p=44290&viewfull=1#post44290

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?533-Upper-Paleolithic-Mesolithic-European-mtDNA-Haplogroups&p=44327&viewfull=1#post44327

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?533-Upper-Paleolithic-Mesolithic-European-mtDNA-Haplogroups&p=44330&viewfull=1#post44330

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?533-Upper-Paleolithic-Mesolithic-European-mtDNA-Haplogroups&p=44333&viewfull=1#post44333

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?533-Upper-Paleolithic-Mesolithic-European-mtDNA-Haplogroups&p=44522&viewfull=1#post44522

And many more.

Abou
02-25-2015, 02:23 PM
If I may, I will bring the discussion to its initial premises. While writing my notes on this topic, I stumbled on Manning and Timpson excellent paper “The demographic response to Holocene climate change in the Sahara (2014)”. The paper can be read freely at the following link: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379114002728

Two things stork me about their findings:
1) The North African population witnessed a collapse at around 3200 BC (see graph below)

3841

2) North Africa (especially Algeria) witnessed a major population effervescence between 7000 BC and 5000 BC. At around 4000 BC this effervescence reached Southern cost of Iberia (Malaga-Almeria-Alicante).

3842
When you see that you can’t help making the association between the coincidental events of Maghrebin population collapse and the sudden appearance of Bell Beaker people in Southern Iberia. It maybe a pure coincidence, but the chances are pretty slim. I am not saying that this is a proof but clearly some serious research should be conducted in this direction. Namely, I would love to see Manning and Timpson extend their work to the Iberia peninsula and Europe. This will shed lights on a lot questions.

R.Rocca
02-25-2015, 03:34 PM
IMO, the lack of Eastern Mediterranean and almost non-existent North African autosomal DNA from the Hinxton Iron Age samples, including the two R1b males makes the probability of a Bell Beaker origin in the Meghreb nearly zero. I'm sure when we see the autosomal DNA of Haak's German Bell Beaker samples they will show the same, but given their age, with an even greater level of Yamnaya ancestry. One would have to jump through hoops to explain how Moroccan Bell Beakers came to be without anything like it prior, especially when you consider that even Rhenish Beakers and Corded Ware beakers seem to arise at around the same time and throughout all of Europe. Explaining the opposite... A small group of Iberian Bell Beakers people or even traders moved into Morocco is quite easy.

Jean M
02-25-2015, 03:45 PM
I stumbled on Manning and Timpson excellent paper “The demographic response to Holocene climate change in the Sahara (2014)”.

Yes I have that paper and a number of others about the climate changes in the Sahara. It's a fascinating topic and explains a great deal about population movements (or lack of them) through the region. However the fact that the population of the Sahara started to fall after 4000 BC does not mean that its people moved to Iberia. There were broadly two populations in the Sahara, one from the south and one from the north. They had entered the region when it greened in the Holocene, and they sensibly left it as turned back to desert. We can track their progress both into the Nile Valley and south to Lake Chad.

All this has this has nothing to do with Bell Beaker, which is a descendant genetically and archaeologically of the Yamnaya culture which started 3300 BC on the European steppe, and started migrating around 3100 BC.

parasar
02-25-2015, 04:24 PM
It isn't remotely possible that H originated in North Africa. As I said earlier, mtDNA H has been found in Neolithic remains in Syria. It entered Europe with farmers as we see in all the satisfactorily tested ancient DNA. (We can disregard H in post-Neolithic non-farmers in Europe as evidence of a Mesolithic origin. It isn't. If H is there after farming and not before farming, the logic is clear.)

It is perfectly possible that some H3 entered Iberia from North Africa in the Neolithic (H having arrived in North Africa from the Levant.)

There is absolutely no support to this, actually never was, as precursors for H were present in Upper Paleolithic Europe.
Now even some of those who initially propounded the theory are going away from it.
Neolithic mitochondrial haplogroup H genomes and the genetic origins of Europeans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23612305

to
Human paleogenetics of Europe – The known knowns and the known unknowns

indicating a widespread and possibly clinal distribution
of haplogroup H in Mesolithic Europe. Under this hypothesis it
seems to be a question of time when the first H lineage will be
reported from Central European hunter-gatherers.

parasar
02-25-2015, 04:27 PM
...
H in Europe is younger than that. Europeans with H-type mtDNAs have on average six differences in their coding region, while U-type mtDNAs have on average 18 differences. That suggests a much older population expansion in U than in H. MtDNA H shows a dramatic growth spurt around 9,000 years ago (7000 BC) with the spread of farming into Europe. See Fu, Rudan, Pääbo and Krause 2012.

Expansion and growth spurt are not the same thing as presence and age.

Jean M
02-25-2015, 04:42 PM
There is absolutely no support to this, actually never was, as precursors for H were present in Upper Paleolithic Europe.

Let's not hijack Abou's thread with this debate, which has gone on countless times on other threads. He has indicated a wish to return to the topic of the thread title.

Abou
02-25-2015, 05:32 PM
Yes I have that paper and a number of others about the climate changes in the Sahara. It's a fascinating topic and explains a great deal about population movements (or lack of them) through the region. However the fact that the population of the Sahara started to fall after 4000 BC does not mean that its people moved to Iberia. There were broadly two populations in the Sahara, one from the south and one from the north. They had entered the region when it greened in the Holocene, and they sensibly left it as turned back to desert. We can track their progress both into the Nile Valley and south to Lake Chad.

All this has this has nothing to do with Bell Beaker, which is a descendant genetically and archaeologically of the Yamnaya culture which started 3300 BC on the European steppe, and started migrating around 3100 BC.

In the paper I mentioned, there is in the supplementary data an amazing video tracing the population movement in the Maghreb since the Holocene till the copper age. I reproduced above two images of those episodes. Notice that the northern population, mostly in nowadays northern Algeria, starts atbaround 5000BC to gradually move to the west reaching Estern part ofMorocco. This ongoing movement then continues to the north to reach the Rif region which is just opposite to Almeria. It then continues to the southern Spain at around 4200BC. After this date the population in the Northern Maghreb starts to dry out significantly. This is usually a sign of mass migration.

As for the Bell Beaker descending from Yamnaya, I am sure this maybe a possibility but at the moment this is not the standard model as far as I know. I will be appreciative if you guide me to a publication in this topic.

Jean M
02-25-2015, 06:07 PM
As for the Bell Beaker descending from Yamnaya, I am sure this maybe a possibility but at the moment this is not the standard model as far as I know. I will be appreciative if you guide me to a publication in this topic.


The crucial archaeological link was made by Harrison, R. and Heyd, V. 2007. The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland), Praehistorische Zeitschrift, 82 (2), 129–214. This is a huge and dense paper, so you might prefer my summary:
I laid out the genetic and archaeological case in Ancestral Journeys (2013) with full references.
Since my book, more ancient DNA support has emerged, most notably the recent paper Haak et al, 2015. Massive migration from the steppe is a source of Indo-European languages, bioRxiv preprint. http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433 . Right now I am incorporating this into a 2nd edition of Ancestral Journeys due out in September.


3845

Jean M
04-01-2015, 06:46 PM
North Africans are a complex mixture of populations ...

Could the Maghreb have tempted some chilled Europeans across the Strait of Gibraltar? The Iberomaurusian culture suddenly appeared in this North-West African refuge around 20,000 years ago, when the last Ice Age was at its height, and spread eastwards along the Mediterranean shore, reaching Cyrenaïca by 18,000 BC. An astonishing variety of origins has been proposed for this culture, including arrivals from Iberia. It is not impossible that under glacial conditions some Iberians took advantage of the lower sea level to flee across the Strait of Gibraltar to North-West Africa, contributing a small amount of mtDNA haplogroup U5b1b to the present-day Berbers.

This seems one possible source of WHG in the Maghreb, though there has been a lot of traffic between Iberia and the Maghreb over the millennia since then.


I have just found a bit of time to update my online page http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mediterraneans.shtml. The idea that the Iberomaurusian culture could have come from Iberia had to go, looking at the latest publications. It is not just archaeologists who don't believe in it these days. A 2014 paper by Bernard Secher (who posts here) makes a strong case for continuity via the deduced behaviour of mtDNA U6. Thought I'd let folks know.

Arch
05-02-2015, 12:09 AM
Dear All,

I am posting today a paper that summaries my thoughts on the R1b origin in Western Europe. These thoughts were around for some time and I am bit surprised that, to my humble knowledge, none one has put forward (at least formally) this idea. Needless to say that this is, at this stage, a pure hypothesis like any other. And for that matter don't expect that it will cover or answer everything. I just organized my thoughts on the question and hope this will enrich the debate about the origin of R1b. I expect that most people will not agree with this it, but please disagree with me for the right reasons. After all, we come from where come from, we like it or not.

Click on the link below to download it:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8HvlHcJnaLgX0dSbU53bVRZNG8/view?usp=sharing

Enjoy the reading

Yes, I think I speak for most of us when we agree with your comment "...we come from where we come from whether we like it or not..." On the other hand, we like the correct information as to where we come from... most of all, rather than just blindly relying on tenuous unfounded facts, or ideologies being forced up on us as a requirement of acceptance. The burden of proof is more on the informer than the listener and this is no matter how much the informer wants the listener to agree -- I'm the listener, and with all due respect, I just don't agree with you and it is not because I merely choose to do so.

Arch

Krefter
05-02-2015, 12:21 AM
I dis agree with the genetic argument because....

>mtDNA H doesn't define (German)Bell beaker. They also had a large amount of mtDNA lineages that came from Yamna-types from East Europe. mtDNA H was present in early Neolithic farmers, and it's not most diverse in NorthWest Africa. There's nothing to suggest Bell Beaker H is from NorthWest Africa, but there's plenty of evidence suggesting their U5a, U2e, U4, T1a, T2a1b, I, J2, etc. was from East Europe.

>Nothing in R1b diversity suggests R1b-L11 is from NorthWest Africa. Instead the evidence suggests it came from East Europe, Central Asia, or West Asia. That's where R1b is most diverse. Samara Yamna were 7/7 R1b1a, all tested for L23 were positive.

>We have prove Autosomal DNA that (German)Bell Beaker were of largely East European origin, probably around 50%. Nothing suggests they had recent Middle eastern, let alone NW African ancestry. The R1b-P312 in (German)Bell beaker is closely related to the R1b-Z2105 in Yamna.

Lorenzo
05-03-2015, 02:12 AM
Interesting hypothesis.

Krefter
05-03-2015, 03:19 AM
Interesting hypothesis.

You're Italian and have R1b-DF27? You sure your paternal line is from Spain?

parasar
05-03-2015, 03:22 AM
Are you OoM folk talking about all R1b including M269? Or a subset such as V88?
Because there looks to be 0 evidence that M269 has anything to with an origin in Maghreb. In light of MA1, Yamna, distribution of R2, distribution of R1a, and distribution of Q, I doubt that R1b-M343 has anything to with an origin Maghreb either.

Ignis90
05-03-2015, 11:14 AM
In the light of the recent findings in the Pontic-Caspian steppes and the lack of ANE and Yamnaya-related admixture in Northwest Africa, I think R1b-M269 has nothing to do with this region. However, for R1b-V88 - which branched out earlier than M269 - this region might be relevant for its presence in Southern Europe (although very minor).


North Africans are a complex mixture of populations, several of which are the same kind of people who entered Europe, or actually European. This explains why North Africans are so similar genetically to Europeans, though they have more Sub-Saharan ancestry, most of which is probably relatively recent i.e. came with the Arab slave trade.


If it came with the medieval Arab slave trade, then it doesn't explain why there is a quite homogenous African contribution in all berber groups and cosmopolitan arabized berbers in the huge territory that spans from Southern Morocco and the Western Sahara to Libya. I am inclined to think it's a Holocene "wet" sahara phase contribution (among others).

lgmayka
05-03-2015, 02:02 PM
You're Italian and have R1b-DF27? You sure your paternal line is from Spain?
R1b-DF27 is found as far east as Kyiv (Kiev). Kit 153495 ordered his Big Y on February 4 but has not gotten results yet. His previous SNP results are:
P310+, P311+, P312+, M269+, DF27+, M37-, M65-, L1-, L21-, M153-, M222-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, L176-, Z196-, DF19-

Odyss
05-03-2015, 03:02 PM
An interesting note : Both R1B and I were found among the Guanche remains. If we are inclined to think that yDNA lineages such as EM81 , EM78 and J1 reached the Canary Islands during the expansion of Berber Afro-Asiatic branch , we may also think of a scenario where yDNA lineages R1B and I represent the pre-Afrasian population of the Maghreb and most likely the male counterparts of the local North African mtDNAs H and U.

Ignis90
05-03-2015, 03:26 PM
An interesting note : Both R1B and I were found among the Guanche remains. If we are inclined to think that yDNA lineages such as EM81 , EM78 and J1 reached the Canary Islands during the expansion of Berber Afro-Asiatic branch , we may also think of a scenario where yDNA lineages R1B and I represent the pre-Afrasian population of the Maghreb and most likely the male counterparts of the local North African mtDNAs H and U.

The problem is all the R1b in the Guanches remains are M269, which is now known to be a quite recent lineage from the Eurasian steppes. Other R might be present since y-dna K and P made up 13% of the total (although K could be T too).
For now, the only possible WHG-related male lineages that could be found in Northwest Africa can only be I and C.

ArmandoR1b
05-03-2015, 04:15 PM
You're Italian and have R1b-DF27? You sure your paternal line is from Spain?

Just to add to what lgmayka said there are 4 Tuscans from 1,000 Genomes that are DF27. http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF27/

There some more at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27?iframe=yresults

Abou
05-05-2015, 02:56 PM
I have just found a bit of time to update my online page http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mediterraneans.shtml. The idea that the Iberomaurusian culture could have come from Iberia had to go, looking at the latest publications. It is not just archaeologists who don't believe in it these days. A 2014 paper by Bernard Secher (who posts here) makes a strong case for continuity via the deduced behaviour of mtDNA U6. Thought I'd let folks know.

Dear Jean M,

Many thanks for posting this very interesting paper indeed. In brief, they claim that the T allele, which is responsible for the lactose tolarence, has most probably occurred some 5000BP (the Beaker époque) in the Iberian peninsula with the possibility that it may have come from the Maghreb. They also published an interesting map for a possible spread of the T allele into Europe. Notice that the route coincides with a heavy presence of R1b in Europe. Clearly, the paper reinforces further the out-of Maghreb hypothesis that was started in this thread.

Agamemnon
05-05-2015, 03:06 PM
The problem is all the R1b in the Guanches remains are M269, which is now known to be a quite recent lineage from the Eurasian steppes.

Indeed, here's what Fregel et al. 2009 had to say about this:

"Surprisingly, R-M269 was also found in the indigenous
sample in a moderate frequency (10%). Its presence in the
indigenous people could be explained in two ways: (a) RM269
was introduced into NW Africa in prehistoric not
historical times, or (b) the presence of this marker in the
aborigines was due to a prehispanic European gene flow
into the indigenous population. As NW African R-M269
chromosomes showed close STR-similarity to the Iberian
ones [17], pointing to recent contacts between both
regions, the second option appears more plausible."

parasar
05-05-2015, 03:25 PM
Dear Jean M,

Many thanks for posting this very interesting paper indeed. In brief, they claim that the T allele, which is responsible for the lactose tolarence, has most probably occurred some 5000BP (the Beaker époque) in the Iberian peninsula with the possibility that it may have come from the Maghreb. They also published an interesting map for a possible spread of the T allele into Europe. Notice that the route coincides with a heavy presence of R1b in Europe. Clearly, the paper reinforces further the out-of Maghreb hypothesis that was started in this thread.

The heavy presence of R1b in Europe is almost all M269.
M269 is first seen in Yamnaya.
The Yamnaya M269 do not have the T allele and their early Corded Ware connections, related if not direct descendants, did not have it either.

So a connection, if any, between T and M269, has to be due to a secondary expansion of M269.

ADW_1981
05-05-2015, 04:11 PM
Indeed, here's what Fregel et al. 2009 had to say about this:

"Surprisingly, R-M269 was also found in the indigenous
sample in a moderate frequency (10%). Its presence in the
indigenous people could be explained in two ways: (a) RM269
was introduced into NW Africa in prehistoric not
historical times, or (b) the presence of this marker in the
aborigines was due to a prehispanic European gene flow
into the indigenous population. As NW African R-M269
chromosomes showed close STR-similarity to the Iberian
ones [17], pointing to recent contacts between both
regions, the second option appears more plausible."

Does anyone remember off hand the dating of the so-called "autochtonous" cemetary? If it doesn't pre-date the arrival of the Spaniards, how do we know the Y results aren't the result of admixture between the indigenous and the new arrivals?

parasar
05-05-2015, 04:25 PM
Does anyone remember off hand the dating of the so-called "autochtonous" cemetary? If it doesn't pre-date the arrival of the Spaniards, how do we know the Y results aren't the result of admixture between the indigenous and the new arrivals?
ABO

Tenerife (2210 ± 60 to 1720 ± 60 BP), Gomera (1743 ± 40 to 1493 ± 40 BP), Hierro (1740 ± 50 to 970 ± 50 BP) and Gran Canaria (1410 ± 60 to 750 ± 60 BP)

Ignis90
05-05-2015, 04:26 PM
Does anyone remember off hand the dating of the so-called "autochtonous" cemetary? If it doesn't pre-date the arrival of the Spaniards, how do we know the Y results aren't the result of admixture between the indigenous and the new arrivals?

From Fregel et al.



Tenerife (2210 ± 60 to 1720 ± 60 BP)
Gomera (1743 ± 40 to 1493 ± 40 BP)
Hierro (1740 ± 50 to 970 ± 50 BP)
Gran Canaria (1410 ± 60 to 750 ± 60 BP)

Basically, from Roman age era (in the Mediterranean) to well into the Middle Ages. Enough time for foreign influx in the isles (which wasn't my guess initially).

ADW_1981
05-05-2015, 05:08 PM
The most ancient cemetaries is probably the result of the Carthaginians who were likely in part R1b of M269 flavour.

ArmandoR1b
05-05-2015, 07:54 PM
It's a shame that they didn't test the Guanches for P312, DF27, U152, L21, and U106.

Jean M
05-05-2015, 08:00 PM
Dear Jean M,

Many thanks for posting this very interesting paper indeed. In brief, they claim that the T allele, which is responsible for the lactose tolarence, has most probably occurred some 5000BP (the Beaker époque) in the Iberian peninsula with the possibility that it may have come from the Maghreb..

Which paper are you talking about? In the post you quote, I linked only to my online page on the Mediterraneans and mentioned a paper by Bernard Secher et al., The history of the North African mitochondrial DNA haplogroup U6 gene flow into the African, Eurasian and American continents, which does not mention lactase persistence.

parasar
05-06-2015, 01:13 AM
Which paper are you talking about? In the post you quote, I linked only to my online page on the Mediterraneans and mentioned a paper by Bernard Secher et al., The history of the North African mitochondrial DNA haplogroup U6 gene flow into the African, Eurasian and American continents, which does not mention lactase persistence.

I think this one which has a dotted arrow query from the Maghreb to Iberia:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0122384
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=medium&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0122384.g005

Jean M
05-06-2015, 08:56 AM
I think this one which has a dotted arrow query from the Maghreb to Iberia:

Oh yes, thanks. I had read that paper and dismissed it as yet more crazy speculation on LP, so I only retained a very vague recollection of it.

The problem all along has been that geneticists were following orthodox, anti-migrationist archaeological texts, which recognised only one significant migration into Europe after the Palaeolithic i.e. the early farmers. One paper after another has therefore tried to fit the spread of lactase persistence to the arrival of early farmers. We had a series of papers claiming that it spread from the LBK, even though no 13910T at all had been found in the LBK. Now we get this nonsense trying to fit it to an early farming arrival in Iberia.

Let's hope that it is the last, now that we have aDNA evidence of later migrations - both in the Late Neolithic and in the Copper Age. 13910T has indeed been found in Bell Beaker, but also in Late Neolithic sites such as the TRB. So I think we can take it that BB was not the initial vector. We would expect it to spread with dairy farming, which was a later development than early farming.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/autosomaladna.shtml

Almuathen
09-06-2015, 08:22 AM
The Maghrebis are Arabs from the Banu Hilal came from Egypt.

Abou
10-30-2015, 05:25 AM
A new paper by Hernandez and al. on the relationship between the Maghreb and Iberia during the Holocene period.

Early Holocenic and Historic mtDNA African Signatures in the Iberian Peninsula: The Andalusian Region as a Paradigm
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0139784


The paper discussion in the Eurogenes blog is quite interesting:
http://eurogenes.blogspot.ae/2015/10/some-african-admixture-in-iberia-might.html


Good reading
Abou