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razyn
02-14-2015, 07:20 PM
It's hard to say what, at this point... anyway, S21184 needs a thread of its own. There hasn't been much chatter about it, except on a closed Facebook list about P312 -- and that isn't the best place to archive something of broader significance. I'll start this by quoting myself from last April:


One of our Big Y testers, kit B2323, was able to verify S21184 in his "variants.vcf" file. This is a new SNP under Z220 that is mutually exclusive with Z295 (parent of both of the previously known large branches, in shorthand the "Z216" and the "CTS4065" groups). It was recognized in the 2000 Chromo2 results (and seems to have at least one subclade). At the moment we don't know which of our Z220 members may already have tested for it on the Chromo2 chip, since those results aren't necessarily reported to us. Anyway, I've created Group Baa for S21184, and will submit the request for that SNP test at FTDNA. It can currently be tested at YSEQ.

During the recent FTDNA winter sale, a number of SNP tests for S21184 were ordered, many of which have now reported (some negative, some positive). In addition, we have Big Y results for at least three more S21184+ members of the R1b-DF27 project. Its subclade S19290 (previously known from the Chromo2 chip) includes a couple of our members identified so far, one with Big Y results; and a new SNP (FGC13557), found as a shared novel variant in the Big Y tests of the other three, now defines another S21184 subclade that is mutually exclusive with S19290. The tests for both are available at YSEQ, and I have just requested them at FTDNA. I have moved the identified members into new subgroups, currently called Baaa and Baab, in the project's STR results: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27/

Their MDKAs are from most of Europe from Hungary to the British Isles, and it's a little hard to see much of a pattern, yet. It may be necessary to refine this picture quite a bit more, bringing it into harmony with YFull, ISOGG or other trees, etc. S16785 seems (from Chromo2 examples) to be a subclade of S19290. A SNP variously called Z419/PF5310 appears to be at the same level as S21184, or its "equivalent." The positions are called, but the SNP names are not used, in Big Y novel variants. YBrowse is down at the moment, so for the convenience of anybody who wants to look for these in his own results I'll go ahead and list the mutations.

18706363 G to A S21184+
17130559 C to T Z419/PF5310+ (equivalent of S21184?)
17148095 A to T S19290+ (subclade of S21184)
15126353 G to A S16785+ (subclade of S19290?)
14828314 G to A FGC13557+ (subclade of S21184)

There may be other SNPs in this area worthy of our attention, that just have not yet come to mine. One more was suggested in Chromo2 results as a subclade of S16785: 16912464 A to C (CTS6458+). However, that one recurs in another haplogroup, at least, and would perhaps waste our time. Those who are following these developments, particularly at YSEQ and YFull, may be ahead of me already. I just feel the need to get a thread started for recording such discussions.

razyn
02-18-2015, 12:02 AM
Another Big Y posted today, kit N74373, with S21184+ and FGC13557+ visible as novel variants. I moved him into the new group Baab. He's Norwegian.

razyn
04-10-2015, 08:05 PM
During the recent FTDNA winter sale, a number of SNP tests for S21184 were ordered, many of which have now reported (some negative, some positive). In addition, we have Big Y results for at least three more S21184+ members of the R1b-DF27 project. Its subclade S19290 (previously known from the Chromo2 chip) includes a couple of our members identified so far, one with Big Y results; and a new SNP (FGC13557), found as a shared novel variant in the Big Y tests of the other three, now defines another S21184 subclade that is mutually exclusive with S19290. The tests for both are available at YSEQ, and I have just requested them at FTDNA. I have moved the identified members into new subgroups, currently called Baaa and Baab, in the project's STR results: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27/

I'm refreshing this thread to report that as of today these two SNPs, S19290 and FGC13557, may be ordered (as Advanced SNP tests) at FTDNA. Meanwhile, both were included on the new R1b-DF27 chip test recently marketed by YSEQ.

ADW_1981
04-28-2015, 02:07 PM
My dad's kit recently tested S21184, and I have S19290 on order as that seems a little more local to UK/Ireland. (I'm too lazy to send in another cheek sample for now)

Even though I have a generic last name, I suspect we have Norman French (local French immigrants to England with William rather than Scandinavian origin) or possibly Huguenot origin from NW France/Belgium.

razyn
05-17-2015, 01:04 AM
The latest S19290 (subclade of S21184) is a Finn, who still lives there -- with MDKA in Turku.

FTDNA doesn't call this SNP; I just saw the mutation in his BigY novel variants. Also, the "shared novel variants" matching function hasn't worked, for several weeks -- the latest working example I have in the DF27 project posted 4/18. Presumably, that will get addressed after the people who fix things get back to Houston from manning the FTDNA booth at the NGS convention in Missouri, and read the backlog of grouchy emails.

ADW_1981
05-24-2015, 08:49 PM
The latest S19290 (subclade of S21184) is a Finn, who still lives there -- with MDKA in Turku.

FTDNA doesn't call this SNP; I just saw the mutation in his BigY novel variants. Also, the "shared novel variants" matching function hasn't worked, for several weeks -- the latest working example I have in the DF27 project posted 4/18. Presumably, that will get addressed after the people who fix things get back to Houston from manning the FTDNA booth at the NGS convention in Missouri, and read the backlog of grouchy emails.

It's interesting because the surname is actually Germanic or Swedish, but I am no expert on the matter because adoption of surnames seems a little different in Scandinavia.
There is also kit # 308908 MDKA Finland who is currently S21184, but I would highly recommend testing further!

On Yfull, there is also an Israeli, and a Spaniard in S19290. This is looking to be a very interesting branch.
If I have selected this SNP a la carte with FTDNA, does that mean I won't get a result?

gotten
05-25-2015, 09:10 PM
You will of course get the S19290+/- result if you order a la carte but I think Dick is referring to the fact that if you do a Big-Y, FTDNA will just throw every relatively new SNP onto their pile with unnamed novel SNPs. In that case you have to check all by yourself (or the always helpful admins) to see if you are positive or negative for that mutation by looking up what mutation corresponds with what SNP name. If they would update their tree the Big-Y results would be so much more accessible. If I didn't know any better and would follow FTDNA I would still be 'stuck' at a terminal SNP of Z210+. With the help of the community I now know that I'm FGC13557+.

ADW_1981
05-27-2015, 01:04 AM
Ah darn, S19290-. I'm not a great gambler I guess!

I just ordered, FGC13557, I have my fingers crossed.

ehjelt
06-10-2015, 08:00 PM
It's interesting because the surname is actually Germanic or Swedish, but I am no expert on the matter because adoption of surnames seems a little different in Scandinavia.
There is also kit # 308908 MDKA Finland who is currently S21184, but I would highly recommend testing further!


My surname is actually Swedish or Norwegian. The results of #308908 are coming soon, too. It's not relevant that we both are Finnish, I think our ancestors have not lived in Finland before the 17th century and not in Scandinavia before the 16th century. Our genetic "cousins" in Sweden used German forenames in 16th century, that can be relevant.

ADW_1981
06-10-2015, 08:30 PM
My dad's test, and indirectly my own just came back FGC13557+.
Cheers

razyn
06-10-2015, 10:36 PM
My dad's test, and indirectly my own just came back FGC13557+.
Cheers

I guess those are the two I moved today, the first because I got the test result notice, and the second because I saw a request on Facebook by a person whose initials are ADW.

razyn
07-20-2015, 09:37 PM
For those of you who are tracking this, another BigY came in with FGC13557+. Kit number is 223805 and I moved him into your group today. I believe some of you share a new SNP below that, at 15005548, A to G. I can make you a subclade of FGC13557, but I think I'll wait and get a name for the SNP before doing so. I've been a little busy today.

gotten
07-31-2015, 01:24 PM
Looks like there is a second S19290+ positive individual from Turku, Finland. That will be an interesting comparison with Mr. Hjelt.

raytclark
08-12-2015, 07:54 PM
For those that might check here, I have made a request (wish a SNP) at YSEQ for the newest 15005548, A to G snp mentioned by rayzn in post #12. I'll post a reply when that snp is available.

gotten
08-12-2015, 08:38 PM
For those that might check here, I have made a request (wish a SNP) at YSEQ for the newest 15005548, A to G snp mentioned by rayzn in post #12. I'll post a reply when that snp is available.

Thanks for requesting that SNP.
Are you the S21184+ FTDNA kit B1714 ? Does your request mean you tested positive at YSEQ for FGC13557 ?

raytclark
08-12-2015, 09:09 PM
Correct on the first count, I need to add my stats to my profile, but I have not yet tested FGC13357. I am gambling $17.50 that I will be. Maness 65753 at ytree.net is a fairly close match with my STR's.

raytclark
08-13-2015, 02:16 PM
I just got this in from YSEQ this morning,

15005548 = A7066 is now available

So you can search for it under either name to order it from YSEQ now.

ADW_1981
08-13-2015, 03:09 PM
Correct on the first count, I need to add my stats to my profile, but I have not yet tested FGC13357. I am gambling $17.50 that I will be. Maness 65753 at ytree.net is a fairly close match with my STR's.

I made that same mistake thinking STR was a solid bet (unless you are really, really close). Good luck, it's possible you might have to test both in the long run. This SNP apparently goes back to 1800 BC (at least) which seems to make sense as I'm not close to any of the haplotypes within any genealogical time frames. (20 STR genetic distance +)

raytclark
09-03-2015, 04:48 PM
Exactly three weeks for my results and I passed!

137 A7066 ChrY 15005548 15005548 G+

So now what? I'm not sure which is more pressure, wondering about a snp test I have requested or wondering what to do next!

btw; ADW_1981 thanks for your comments about STR's not being a solid bet, I also lost that bet in the past, but managed to guess correctly this time.

razyn
09-18-2015, 01:55 PM
Exactly three weeks for my results and I passed!

137 A7066 ChrY 15005548 15005548 G+

So now what?

Well, for one thing I created a subgroup for A7066 the other day, 9/16 (with two guys who had it in their BigY results, and were separated that way in the Big Tree). Then today I remembered to move you into it. Group Baaba.

The Big Tree has (or soon will have) other updates that affect the placement and branching above, beside, and below S21184. Alex has placed it below a new SNP, ZZ40, along with other branches that currently are smaller. Also, watch for S16785, a SNP I had formerly assumed was equivalent with S19290 (the same five kits had both, from the Chromo2 chip last year). YFull is giving it a level of its own, and Alex may go along, after checking some additional data. If so, it will probably be below S19290 -- but not above all the samples of that on Alex's tree. Stay tuned, and watch this space:
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=629&star=false

razyn
09-29-2015, 05:18 AM
The Big Tree has (or soon will have) other updates that affect the placement and branching above, beside, and below S21184. Alex has placed it below a new SNP, ZZ40, along with other branches that currently are smaller.
I did a certain amount of juggling within this area of the tree, on Sept. 28. Members of these branches may be in a somewhat different group, now. For the most part I just rewrote the captions (perhaps including even the first few letters), but there are a couple of new groups. Most of the revision was caused by adding a ZZ40 level, above S21184 -- that put several other SNPs on its level, and made S21184 itself a level lower or "younger" than Z295. It's still a work in progress, but somewhat more in agreement with Alex's Big Tree.

gotten
12-10-2015, 06:46 PM
I asked one of my closest Dutch STR matches to take the Big-Y (kit 231236, Penders). We have a GD of 7 out of 67 but only one was on a slow marker and one is a null. He has a completely different surname but his MDKA is geographically close to my MDKA which prompted my request. The results came back in 3 weeks and it appears he shares a ton (22, counted on the Big-Y matches page) of my private SNPs but S21184 and FGC13557 seem to be uncalled. I'll see if we can get his results on the Big Tree. Think this will create a 'Dutch' branch under FGC13557.

razyn
12-11-2015, 11:28 PM
it appears he shares a ton (22, counted on the Big-Y matches page) of my private SNPs but S21184 and FGC13557 seem to be uncalled.
Actually, they are both called in the Known SNPs list now. So that means they are no longer Novel, and aren't on the list where you get Matches. It's sort of one step forward and one back, in terms of our being able to find people.

gotten
12-12-2015, 12:16 AM
Actually, they are both called in the Known SNPs list now. So that means they are no longer Novel, and aren't on the list where you get Matches. It's sort of one step forward and one back, in terms of our being able to find people.

Now you mention it, today I do see FGC13557+ and S21184+ on his known SNP list (at the DF27 project). Yesterday the list was a lot shorter.
He doesn't show up when I use the novel shared variants dropdown list to select FGC13557 while the other FGC13557's are. Oh well, good to know this inconsistency exists in the Big Y match menu. I'm glad I got a confirmed 'close' match.

gotten
01-13-2016, 05:20 PM
The S21184 branch has been partially added to the FTDNA haplotree. S19290 seems to be missing at its location. Several kits in the DF27 project in groups Baa and below now show updated terminal SNPs.

gotten
01-15-2016, 09:41 PM
As you may know from other posts in the forum, the Genome of the Netherlands ran whole genome tests on about 250 families consisting of 2 parents and one child (and in some cases twins). The variants can be downloaded at http://www.nlgenome.nl/?page_id=9 . I downloaded the variants and crossmatched the ones on the Y chromosome with the known SNP list from ybrowse (http://ybrowse.org/gbrowse2/gff/) . I'm sure others have done this before but I just wanted to show you how many 21184+ individuals are in GoNL (low number statistics).

Only the fathers were counted.

4 out of 500 alleles were S21184+ (so this means 2 out of 250 fathers)
13 out of 496 alleles were Z419+; This is more than the 4 that were S21184+. The solution is that Z419 also occurs as a phylogenetic equivalent to J-L24 and there are actually 8 out of 500 alleles with L24 and several other equivalents to L24 in GoNL.
FGC13557 was absent in the 250 individuals. All S21184+ were S19290+ with 4 out of 500. 2 out of 500 alleles were measured at S16785+ (below S19290+).

Seattle67
01-23-2016, 12:37 AM
Just got my Big Y results, FTDNA B66192 Baaa. S21184+, S19290+ (Z220/Z210>ZZ40>S21184>S19290). Have traced my paternal line to 1715, Holbaek Denmark. A complete newbie with this stuff, but very interested in learning more.

gotten
01-23-2016, 01:41 PM
Just got my Big Y results

I see you are already part of the FTDNA DF27 group.

I encourage you to join the R1b group as well (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1b/activity-feed) and to download your Big-Y .vcf data and share it with the Big Tree using these instructions: http://ytree.net/Instructions.html.
You will end up on this part of the tree http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=766&star=false and you will possibly match somebody on a shared mutation below S19290.

If you want to extract almost 400 STR values out of your Big-Y result you have to download the raw .bam file and hand it over to www.yfull.com. Unfortunately raw file generation has been temporarily suspended by FTDNA. So that step might take several months.

razyn
01-23-2016, 02:02 PM
Just got my Big Y results, FTDNA B66192 Baaa. S21184+, S19290+
And btw it was I who put you in the S19290 group (Baaa); FTDNA hasn't put that one on their Haplotree yet, so it doesn't display in green as your terminal SNP from BigY. Somewhat perversely, it's only listed in your Known SNPs (not Novel Variants); so it doesn't show up at the bottom of your Novel Variant Matches list. They have been testing for S19290 since last April 10, after I had requested it (based on Jim Wilson's Chromo2-2000 results) and FGC13557 on Feb. 23.

My guess is that when S19290 is found positive in somebody's Z209 SNP Pack, that will finally alert their Haplotree display to its existence, validity, or however they make that nuanced distinction. Once it's on the Haplotree, it should become the green SNP name in your row on the DF27 project spreadsheet.

But wait, there's more:


S16785 seems (from Chromo2 examples) to be a subclade of S19290.
[snip]
One more was suggested in Chromo2 results as a subclade of S16785: 16912464 A to C (CTS6458+). However, that one recurs in another haplogroup, at least, and would perhaps waste our time.

I just added that because one of our project members (108969) now has the S16785+ result from the new Z209 SNP pack. Both FGC13557 and S19290 are on that test, but in his results they both show as * No call or heterozygous call.

razyn
01-23-2016, 03:14 PM
I'll see if I can post a screen shot of the S21184 SNPs that were to be tested by the R1b-Z209 SNP Pack. This is just a detail from p. 4 of the .pdf document Mike Walsh attached in a message on the Yahoo group for DF27, Nov. 3, 2015.

7415

gotten
01-23-2016, 08:50 PM
Just got my Big Y results, FTDNA B66192 Baaa. S21184+, S19290+ (Z220/Z210>ZZ40>S21184>S19290). Have traced my paternal line to 1715, Holbaek Denmark. A complete newbie with this stuff, but very interested in learning more.

Looking at the Big Tree it seems like you share a variant with Palmer/Paramour on position 18369999, but since it is on the Palindrome P6 I don't think it is testable using single SNP tests. (although that was also claimed about the ZZ snps)
When I look at that position in the DF27 group at Yfull a kit, with MDKA Parker, has mixed reads at that location while the other S19290 kits have a solid G read.

So I think Palmer (99668) + Parker (148469) are your closest SNP-confirmed relatives.

Seattle67
01-23-2016, 09:23 PM
I see you are already part of the FTDNA DF27 group.

I encourage you to join the R1b group as well (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1b/activity-feed) and to download your Big-Y .vcf data and share it with the Big Tree using these instructions: http://ytree.net/Instructions.html.
You will end up on this part of the tree http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=766&star=false and you will possibly match somebody on a shared mutation below S19290.

If you want to extract almost 400 STR values out of your Big-Y result you have to download the raw .bam file and hand it over to www.yfull.com. Unfortunately raw file generation has been temporarily suspended by FTDNA. So that step might take several months.

Sent the Big Y data to Big Tree. You are correct, that's where it ended up. See some matches to people with Irish & English locations. Just makes it even more interesting on how that might link to my Danish ancestry. Thank you.

gotten
01-23-2016, 09:29 PM
Just makes it even more interesting on how that might link to my Danish ancestry.

With the Palmer kit coming out of Kent, England I would almost say it's the Jutes migrating in the 4th century from Denmark to Kent. But I think it is too early to say that for sure. We need way more tests to support claims like that.

Here's a graph of the Jutes' settlement area in the 6th century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutes#/media/File:Anglo_saxon_jute_575ad.jpg
The Palmer MDKA lived on the Isle of Thanet (seen as Tanatus on this map). It is the first place the Jutes would have hit while migrating.
But again, at the moment this is a weak claim.

Actually, after thinking about it some more: since at the moment only one single SNP is shared below S19290 the common origin is probably a lot earlier back. Your ancestor lived somewhere in central continental Europe and some descendants ended up in England, and others in Denmark. With more testing you'll probably have relatives all over Europe. The DNA matches are biased towards people with English roots (majority of customers is American).

ADW_1981
01-24-2016, 04:12 PM
A7066 on order. This group seems to be English and German so far, very few descendants.

ADW_1981
02-18-2016, 02:04 PM
Looks like S19290+ has filled out with a couple more MDKA of Sweden (2) and Denmark(1). I find this very interesting because the other MDKA Irish kits in the cluster are very much Norman surnames.

gotten
02-18-2016, 05:33 PM
There is also another Y16854+ kit with unspecified MDKA but based on the name (Saltiel) it seems to be French.

Sorry for being nosey but what is the expected completion date of your A7066 test?
I'm really curious to know what branch you are with your offmodals. You might end up as your private branch below FGC13557.

ADW_1981
02-18-2016, 05:38 PM
There is also another Y16854+ kit with unspecified MDKA but based on the name (Saltiel) it seems to be French.

Sorry for being nosey but what is the expected completion date of your A7066 test?
I'm really curious to know what branch you are with your offmodals. You might end up as your private branch below FGC13557.

I'm just as nosey :) I check everyday. It says my sample is pending, but FTDNA also said my sample had expired, and they sent another kit. I will be mailing this one in the coming days.

Yeah :D

http://www.nameyourroots.com/names/report?name1=Saltiel

gotten
02-18-2016, 06:00 PM
These new Big-Y's create a lot of structure in that branch with the Fins.

The two Finnish kits are actually below S16785 but I think that SNP went unreported in their Big-Y .vcf (their Yfull results show that mutation with a very low number of reads).
The HG01765 kit on the Big Tree is also positive for S16785+, as was one individual from the Genome of the Netherlands project (unfortunately I don't know the SNPs of that kit below S16785 as it was anonymized).
I presume the Saltiel kit is also S16785 and shares at least one SNP below S16785 (Y16854) with the Fins and Swedes.

ehjelt
02-18-2016, 06:20 PM
Once it's on the Haplotree, it should become the green SNP name in your row on the DF27 project spreadsheet.



This is not true with my Terminal hg BY3276 (under S16785). It's green on the Haplotree but the Dashboard and DF27 spreadsheet show still Z-209.

razyn
02-18-2016, 06:49 PM
It is above my pay grade to get one FTDNA computer function to talk to another.

There is some illogical hierarchy telling the several displays what to display. I suspect that human hands never touch it, anyway I know mine can't.

macmegmat
02-22-2016, 09:13 PM
This is Palmer, I wondered if we are connected to Rollo who ransacked Paris? Sorry, been watching the "Vikings" episodes.

razyn
02-22-2016, 11:01 PM
I posted this 2/19 to the more general DF27 Yahoo group, but thought some reading this thread might not see it, so here it is again:


[S16785] was tested on the Chromo2 chip, and when Jim Wilson of BritainsDNA released a spreadsheet of 2000 people’s results from that, the same five samples were positive for it and S19290: AKL, AKT, AKU, AKV, and ALE. How those two SNPs relate to each other on a tree has not been agreed on by everybody. Alex hasn’t put S16785 on the Big Tree, and its position isn’t listed in his Mutations Index. It’s at 15126353, G to A. YBrowse just says “below S21184.” For the time being, I have them in the same group, Baaa. I’m not confident that they are equivalent, and if they are one may just be easier to test reliably, or something.

Would be happy to hear from somebody who actually knows more.

gotten
02-22-2016, 11:38 PM
This is Palmer, I wondered if we are connected to Rollo who ransacked Paris? Sorry, been watching the "Vikings" episodes.

Welcome !, it is nice to see many of the S21184+ Big-Y's making their way to this forum.

I don't think there are many clues at the moment to what branch Rollo and his male descendants belonged. There are some studies and family rumours (http://www.stclairresearch.com/content/storiesConqueror.html) on the web but nothing to really take seriously.

ADW_1981
02-23-2016, 03:44 PM
This is Palmer, I wondered if we are connected to Rollo who ransacked Paris? Sorry, been watching the "Vikings" episodes.

I don't know if it would be Rollo exactly, but I think at least some of the folks in your specific group were Normans (in my humble opinion). ie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Burke
There are several independent Burke families that are at least within Z209+, and currently one tester with S19290+. I haven't glanced at the haplotypes but I suspect a recent common ancestor that is yet to be confirmed...if anyone wants to spend the time ;)

razyn
03-08-2016, 04:51 PM
We got another S21184+ over the weekend from the Geno2 Next Gen test (which gives numerous bad calls, as well as quite a few correct ones, and it's hard to see the woods for the trees in the results). He doesn't have any STRs tested, so he's invisible, but FYI the kit number is N163675 and he did join the DF27 project.

gotten
03-08-2016, 05:16 PM
Are S19290 and FGC13557 in the Geno NG? If so, and he is negative for both, he might be S21184* pointing to a third branch under S21184.
The kit seems to be Italian based on the surname.

ADW_1981
03-09-2016, 03:12 AM
Doing a little digging in the SNPs in the project, there is also a N160159 with surname "Baylis" who is positive for S21184. Probably English, but could have French origins.

Arch
03-10-2016, 11:47 AM
This is Palmer, I wondered if we are connected to Rollo who ransacked Paris? Sorry, been watching the "Vikings" episodes.

Maybe Rollo the candy? That stuff is pretty good for watching movies; even HBO movies.

razyn
03-12-2016, 12:28 AM
A new member (#342416) joined the DF27 project today with BigY results that showed his S21184; FTDNA didn't call his S19290+, but he has that too (in Known SNPs). He lives in Norway, above the Arctic Circle.

razyn
04-02-2016, 08:23 PM
Another BigY tested person who joined the DF27 project yesterday afternoon has S21184 and A7066 visible in his "Known SNPs" list, although FTDNA only has him called as Z209 at present. I put him in group Baaba, kit number is 259674 (gotten take note, his branch parallels yours).

gotten
04-02-2016, 09:53 PM
Thanks for the notification. I saw him in my Big-Y matches before. I really should send an email to each S21184+ Big-Y match separately to get them to take full advantage of their Big-Y (R1b+DF27 FTDNA groups, Yahoo groups, this forum topic, 3rd party analysis [ytree,yfull,fgc]).

razyn
04-02-2016, 10:45 PM
I wrote today and asked him to download his .vcf, anyway. I think there's currently a queue for BAM files, and it may not be worth the grief to try to get started on the 3rd party stuff until they get back up to speed. Anyway, first small steps have been taken.

ADW_1981
04-03-2016, 02:56 PM
gotten - you are A7066-? The parallel branch thing threw me off.

gotten
04-03-2016, 04:50 PM
Yes, I'm negative for A7066 (64 reads of A at that location) and have a shared branch with another Dutch kit. I estimate the TMRCA with him to be around 1000 years ago (+- several centuries). So, relatively recent ;)

ADW_1981
04-06-2016, 07:18 PM
Still no A7066 result...and it's been several months. Not sure what is going on.

gotten
04-06-2016, 09:21 PM
Still no A7066 result...and it's been several months. Not sure what is going on.

Might be a good moment to poke their helpdesk. That should shake things up a bit.

A.D.
04-12-2016, 02:23 PM
Doing a little digging in the SNPs in the project, there is also a N160159 with surname "Baylis" who is positive for S21184. Probably English, but could have French origins.
That's me, I'm Irish, from East Tyrone. Baylis is my adopted name (NPE). The thing is every one call me an 'English B*****d' (including my own kids) due to my accent. (I lived in S.E. England for years as a kid, guess what they called me) I usually reply 'who are you calling English'. I now believe there is a God he not only hates me he's taking the F***in the Mick out of me! LOL. just couldn't help that one.

A.D.
04-12-2016, 02:29 PM
R-S21184 only showed up on my Dashboard today after a review. How did you get it before me? He's taking the Mick again. LMFAO!!

ADW_1981
04-12-2016, 02:56 PM
R-S21184 only showed up on my Dashboard today after a review. How did you get it before me? He's taking the Mick again. LMFAO!!

I navigated to the SNP view and I did a CTRL-F on S21184.

ADW_1981
04-12-2016, 03:02 PM
Speaking of which I just noticed kit#N74373 (Norway) and #133936 (Poland) are both A7066+. Must have just come in.

A.D.
04-12-2016, 06:33 PM
I don't know where S21184 put me but it could be planter or maybe Huguenot. It seems to southerly for Viking, Norman I would have thought would have more obvious name crop up. Original Gaelic seems to early. Possibly Tudor English? again I think there'd be some recognizable names. Then again S21184 crops up in Hungary so anything is possible. Any guesses.

gotten
04-12-2016, 07:08 PM
Speaking of which I just noticed kit#N74373 (Norway) and #133936 (Poland) are both A7066+. Must have just come in.
Both are pre early-2015 BigY's. They aren't on the Big Tree yet.

ADW_1981
04-12-2016, 07:24 PM
I don't know where S21184 put me but it could be planter or maybe Huguenot. It seems to southerly for Viking, Norman I would have thought would have more obvious name crop up. Original Gaelic seems to early. Possibly Tudor English? again I think there'd be some recognizable names. Then again S21184 crops up in Hungary so anything is possible. Any guesses.

I'm pretty sure it's not Irish, which would also rule out Gaelic. It's a rare possibility but one of the least likely scenarios.

If you look at the S19290 cluster, there are many nordic kits, but also a famous Hiberno-Norman house which seems to hold to French kits of same name. It wouldn't surprise me if FGC13557/A7066+ were also Norse or north Germanic origin (A-S). People need to realize that a completely plausible scenario is an origin in Iberia/France during Atlantic Bronze around 1500 BC and move north east as far north as southern Scandinavia. The lineage could have then moved south again with the migration period.

Another hypothetical scenario a move westwards with Halstatt Celts, but it wouldn't explain the results in the north. There are also not enough data points in SE Germany to base such a conclusion.

ADW_1981
04-12-2016, 07:25 PM
Both are pre early-2015 BigY's. They aren't on the Big Tree yet.

Just want to confirm, if I understand correctly, that the A7066+ result is still valid right?

gotten
04-12-2016, 08:28 PM
Just want to confirm, if I understand correctly, that the A7066+ result is still valid right?

I think there is no reason to doubt the A7066+ . Either FTDNA reparsed their database or we overlooked their A7066+ for a long time. Maybe Razyn has an idea.

razyn
04-12-2016, 08:51 PM
I think there is no reason to doubt the A7066+ . Either FTDNA reparsed their database or we overlooked their A7066+ for a long time. Maybe Razyn has an idea.
I think it just went from being a Novel Variant (15005548, A to C) to a Known SNP, called A7066. A bunch of guys have it, who may or may not be on the Big Tree, or in the DF27 project, or testing at FTDNA rather than YSEQ. I lose track of who's who. But those two guys are not new, they both had BigY tests.

A.D.
04-13-2016, 10:41 AM
I found something interesting, The 'Kennedy's of Canna' claim to be R-S21184 (and S168 -S169 from a Scotland project) a Scottish island clan who moved around a lot due to being 'fanatically anti-English and as a result suffered massive losses to the point they claim genocide. They also have links to Norther Ireland. I found this interesting because some of the GEDcom tools has my aDNA as Irish, Argyle and Orkney also a lot of Baltic in it more than EEF. I don't think Hallstatt Celts migrated in any numbers to Ireland or LeTene ones either. As for the Atlantic Copper/Bronze Age populations in Ireland especially and Britain went up and down and was accompanied by sea trade.

A.D.
04-14-2016, 05:37 PM
S21184 seems to appear in areas that were connected to the Hospitalers ,Templers and Teutonic Knights. Finland, Hungary, Scandinavia were converted by the sword. England France and Germany were the big ones. Norway had a Crusade via England and Spain but I'm not sure about Spanish Crusaders. Far from proving anything but interesting.

ADW_1981
04-14-2016, 06:37 PM
I found something interesting, The 'Kennedy's of Canna' claim to be R-S21184 (and S168 -S169 from a Scotland project) a Scottish island clan who moved around a lot due to being 'fanatically anti-English and as a result suffered massive losses to the point they claim genocide. They also have links to Norther Ireland. I found this interesting because some of the GEDcom tools has my aDNA as Irish, Argyle and Orkney also a lot of Baltic in it more than EEF. I don't think Hallstatt Celts migrated in any numbers to Ireland or LeTene ones either. As for the Atlantic Copper/Bronze Age populations in Ireland especially and Britain went up and down and was accompanied by sea trade.

I checked the Scottish DNA project and only 1 individual was tested for S21184 amongst 8865 men and he was negative. I also couldn't find any trace of S21184 in the Kennedy project.

gotten
04-14-2016, 07:35 PM
I also couldn't find any trace of S21184 in the Kennedy project.

Same here. Couldn't find any Kennedy with S21184+ but I do see a reference on http://cannakennedy.blogspot.com/ to it. Based on the context I think the S21184 is falsely listed and they probably mean a different SNP at the approximate level of P312/U106.

MacUalraig
04-14-2016, 07:56 PM
I checked the Scottish DNA project and only 1 individual was tested for S21184 amongst 8865 men and he was negative. I also couldn't find any trace of S21184 in the Kennedy project.

The result you refer to is correct. I have been doing Kennedy DNA testing in Scotland and Ireland for over a decade now. Since 2013 the project has been SNP based. Can't believe the number of times I have to repeat this... :-)

This site was set up in Jan 2006:

http://www.kennedydna.com/

razyn
04-14-2016, 08:12 PM
I have been doing Kennedy DNA testing in Scotland and Ireland for over a decade now.
Well, fine, but not for S21184. And for most of that decade, not for DF27 either. BritainsDNA (under its several names) was testing for S21184 before FTDNA was, but not long before.

Whether that cuts any ice with Kennedys, of Canna or elsewhere, I wouldn't know. But recently discovered SNPs are only found in new tests, or in new examination of previously done sequencing (such as the 1000 Genomes data). They aren't visible in the 2007 Deep Clade data, P312* or the like, of longtime project members.

MacUalraig
04-14-2016, 08:22 PM
Well, fine, but not for S21184. And for most of that decade, not for DF27 either. BritainsDNA (under its several names) was testing for S21184 before FTDNA was, but not long before.

Whether that cuts any ice with Kennedys, of Canna or elsewhere, I wouldn't know. But recently discovered SNPs are only found in new tests, or in new examination of previously done sequencing (such as the 1000 Genomes data). They aren't visible in the 2007 Deep Clade data, P312* or the like, of longtime project members.

Allow me to be clearer still then. The person who did the test is a member of my Kennedy DNA project and SNP tested under my direction. That should be good enough for you unless you think I'm lying or stupid. By the way I pre-ordered Chromo2 in May 2013 and I am quite familiar with it having ordered it for quite a few Kennedys, until better things came along at YSEQ.

gotten
04-14-2016, 08:30 PM
Allow me to be clearer still then. The person who did the test is a member of my Kennedy DNA project and SNP tested under my direction. That should be good enough for you unless you think I'm lying or stupid. By the way I pre-ordered Chromo2 in May 2013 and I am quite familiar with it having ordered it for quite a few Kennedys, until better things came along at YSEQ.

I'm puzzled. So there is a Kennedy with S21184+?

raytclark
04-14-2016, 09:13 PM
I just ran across this blog from Erkki Hjelt and I haven't seen anyone here comment on it yet (although it was posted in June of last year). I would greatly appreciate the experience of the groups diverse perspective. If the discussion has already concluded, my apologies!

http://hjeltdna.blogspot.com/2015/06/were-my-ancestors-iberian-2300-1300-bc.html

Interesting that at the end of the article it reads, "So the story continues in the following articles. Anthrogenica: S21184 has something to tell us" and others

ADW_1981
04-14-2016, 11:38 PM
I just ran across this blog from Erkki Hjelt and I haven't seen anyone here comment on it yet (although it was posted in June of last year). I would greatly appreciate the experience of the groups diverse perspective. If the discussion has already concluded, my apologies!

http://hjeltdna.blogspot.com/2015/06/were-my-ancestors-iberian-2300-1300-bc.html

Interesting that at the end of the article it reads, "So the story continues in the following articles. Anthrogenica: S21184 has something to tell us" and others

It looks like Mr Hjelt knows of at least 4 family members, and a fifth whom is apparently an American of Gotlander origin. I have not seen his kit though. I also believe our branch spread NE during the Atlantic Bronze Age, but also likely moved back SW again with Germanic invasions.

EDIT: He's probably talking about kit#12207

razyn
04-15-2016, 01:09 AM
That should be good enough for you unless you think I'm lying or stupid.
Heaven forfend. I was only reacting to the "over a decade" bit, in a thread that I started 14 months ago when FTDNA projects started showing that the clade was actually fairly significant -- and not some semi-local grouplet from, e.g., Orkney or Cornwall. More recently it appears that S21184 is only part of a much broader ZZ40 population, and the latter appears to form the real contrast set with Z295. But we didn't know that in Feb. 2015 -- and nor did Jim Wilson, or Thomas Krahn, or you. So it wasn't being found a decade ago, and we are only beginning to catch up on the large backlog of undertested members of old projects. If you are all caught up, whoopee. Most surnames aren't.

MacUalraig
04-15-2016, 05:41 AM
Heaven forfend. I was only reacting to the "over a decade" bit, in a thread that I started 14 months ago when FTDNA projects started showing that the clade was actually fairly significant -- and not some semi-local grouplet from, e.g., Orkney or Cornwall. More recently it appears that S21184 is only part of a much broader ZZ40 population, and the latter appears to form the real contrast set with Z295. But we didn't know that in Feb. 2015 -- and nor did Jim Wilson, or Thomas Krahn, or you. So it wasn't being found a decade ago, and we are only beginning to catch up on the large backlog of undertested members of old projects. If you are all caught up, whoopee. Most surnames aren't.

Fair enough razyn. I only mentioned the duration of the project in a moment of exasperation as the subject of the Kennedy projects came up not too long ago here:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?997-L21*-(the-real-deal)-(L21-DF13-DF63-)&p=105813&viewfull=1#post105813

but of course some people may have missed the post.

gotten
04-15-2016, 03:27 PM
MacUalraig, do you know his status (+/-) for S19290 and/or FGC13557 ? The former was also tested by Chromo 2.

MacUalraig
04-15-2016, 04:07 PM
MacUalraig, do you know his status (+/-) for S19290 and/or FGC13557 ? The former was also tested by Chromo 2.

S21184 is the terminal SNP from C2 and I can confirm he is negative for S19290. Although this rule may not always work, generally we give out terminal SNPs unless stated otherwise.

ADW_1981
04-15-2016, 06:56 PM
S21184 is the terminal SNP from C2 and I can confirm he is negative for S19290. Although this rule may not always work, generally we give out terminal SNPs unless stated otherwise.

Is there anything else you can tell us that is not infringing on privacy? I don't typically read L21+ threads and this topic is clearly distinct from that subclade. Are they Scottish or Irish? Is it widely represented amongst this surname, or does it appear to be a NPE? I noticed many Kennedys are M222.

raytclark
04-15-2016, 09:21 PM
Is there anything else you can tell us that is not infringing on privacy?
I posted a comment on his blog, The Kennedys of Canna. Perhaps Archie will join in soon. I certainly hope so!

MacUalraig
04-15-2016, 09:30 PM
Is there anything else you can tell us that is not infringing on privacy? I don't typically read L21+ threads and this topic is clearly distinct from that subclade. Are they Scottish or Irish? Is it widely represented amongst this surname, or does it appear to be a NPE? I noticed many Kennedys are M222.

Well the thread has already established (correctly) that the line traces to Canna, Scotland.
The Kennedy surname is extraordinarily diverse genetically though mostly somewhere under DF13. I have testers who are M222, DF21, L226, L1335, L513, Z251, Z253, Z255, and FGC11134 off the top of my head. No DF41s yet.
I only have one S21184 person but I also have one who is S356+ S21184-. That doesn't make the S21184 one an NPE unless I establish a historical link with one of the other groups. The S356 one is also Scottish but some distance away and its not clear they are connected historically.

raytclark
04-18-2016, 05:49 PM
... S21184 is only part of a much broader ZZ40 population, and the latter appears to form the real contrast set with Z295.
Thanks Dick for making that statement. It takes a couple of times for some things to sink in.
When I first heard of ZZ40 and that it meant S21184 was "younger" than previously "guesstimated" it took me a couple of days to process that one, too!

A.D.
04-19-2016, 08:38 PM
My bio-mother is from N.Ireland a few miles south of a Kennedy 'hot spot' so maybe I have some related ancestry. I'm NPE so have no surname to associate with. Though it's very possible from the Kennedy of Canna history that they changed names or hid children with other families. The English had it in for them cause they weren't a bit shy on setting about on the English at all. I'd like to find out.

MacUalraig
04-21-2016, 07:33 AM
My bio-mother is from N.Ireland a few miles south of a Kennedy 'hot spot' so maybe I have some related ancestry. I'm NPE so have no surname to associate with. Though it's very possible from the Kennedy of Canna history that they changed names or hid children with other families. The English had it in for them cause they weren't a bit shy on setting about on the English at all. I'd like to find out.

Canna is within striking distance of several of the biggest hotspots for the Scottish highland MacUalraigs, notably Coll and Tiree, also Skye and Lochaber in general. But of course they are numerous on the opposite shores too.

ADW_1981
05-04-2016, 03:33 PM
It looks like some of the terminal SNP information was updated for some members and reflects appropriately in the DF27 project. Still no A7066 result though hah!

EDIT: Includes Polish and Norwegian guy correctly showing A7066+

razyn
05-04-2016, 03:54 PM
I just moved one guy into S21184 a few minutes ago (N160159). Don't know when that result posted, I just noticed that he was in Ungrouped and moved him.

ADW_1981
05-19-2016, 01:06 AM
A few more A7066+ results have posted. Strange thing is the deBurgh family has male lineages in both S19290+ and also A7066+, unless there is some mistake.

Webb
05-19-2016, 02:34 AM
A few more A7066+ results have posted. Strange thing is the deBurgh family has male lineages in both S19290+ and also A7066+, unless there is some mistake.

Are they claiming the same ancestor? DeBurgh is a place name so to have different lineages wouldn't itself be surprising but two very closely related branches, yet separate is interesting.

ADW_1981
05-19-2016, 03:10 PM
Well hypothetically, they would go back to the same Norman family who moved to Ireland, but a see a similar branch of the same surname exists still in France, further strengthening the Norman case. I counted about 12-13 steps at 111 STR between one of the A7066+ guys and the S19290+ group. Maybe it's just coincidence and they aren't related in the 1066 AD timeframe. I'm sure both branches are Norman anyways ;)

Webb
05-19-2016, 03:17 PM
Well hypothetically, they would go back to the same Norman family who moved to Ireland, but a see a similar branch of the same surname exists still in France, further strengthening the Norman case. I counted about 12-13 steps at 111 STR between one of the A7066+ guys and the S19290+ group. Maybe it's just coincidence and they aren't related in the 1066 AD timeframe. I'm sure both branches are Norman anyways ;)

I have a step 9, 67 marker match that by all rights means we shared a common ancestor around 1066 as well. However, they are Z270 and I am CTS4065. This is one of those strange cases where we should be matches in the historical timeframe based on STR, but SNP says otherwise.

razyn
05-19-2016, 03:41 PM
And the SNPs win that argument. Unless (and it's a rare case) you are looking at a SNP that is recurrent, so it can toggle off in some lineage that is still that of a near relative -- and the STRs still show that.

I don't think it's rare at all for STRs, randomly and (for some) frequently mutating up and down, to achieve something that looks like a match. Especially if it's "only" a 9/67 mismatch, between samples in the very large WAMH family. They may really be no kin, within recent millennia.

ADW_1981
05-19-2016, 03:44 PM
There is also a FGC23343+ kit who shows up A7066+, so I don't know what's going on.

gotten
05-19-2016, 04:36 PM
Kits 52129 and N118186 have strange results. Look at the first kit: P312+, DF83+, P312+, Z209+, CTS12684+, L23+, L150+, L51+, P310+, A7066+, FGC23363+, S19290+, S21184+, Z195+, S16785+, Z209+, Z271+, Z215+, Z220+, Z268+, Z29689+, Z419+, Z694+, ZZ40_1+.

DF83 , A7066, FGC23363+ S19290+, S21184+, S16785, ZZ40_1 ???

This is nuts.

razyn
05-19-2016, 05:59 PM
I don't understand that either, looks like some sort of problem with their primers for A7066? At YFull, nobody's tested positive for it yet (15005548, A-G). All samples (including from 1000 Genomes) have A at that locus, so far. Also, 52129 can't be DF83+ if he's also ZZ12- and Z195+. It would be nice if N118186 would get a valid SNP -- FGC23343 looks pretty good, except for the contradiction of A7066+ (which is probably wrong).

gotten
05-19-2016, 07:38 PM
52129 as a Burke lines up with the other two S16785+ Burk(e)'s. So the DF83, A7066 and FGC23363 calls seem to be false. I wonder what the source is of the SNPs. Z209 pack or transferred Geno 2.0 NG?
N118186 looks like FGC23363+ with a false A7066 but is ZZ40_1 negative, contradicting the Big Tree (although ZZ40_1 might not be consistent when tested).

112237 has a false A7066.
B10880 also has FGC23363+ and ZZ40_1- but Z419+, FGC13557+, S21184+. Which hints that his A7066 might be correct (although we can't be sure).

ADW_1981
05-19-2016, 07:53 PM
FINALLY! After 5 months of waiting, my result came in. A7066+. Thank you FTDNA...I think?

ADW_1981
05-19-2016, 09:11 PM
52129 as a Burke lines up with the other two S16785+ Burk(e)'s. So the DF83, A7066 and FGC23363 calls seem to be false. I wonder what the source is of the SNPs. Z209 pack or transferred Geno 2.0 NG?
N118186 looks like FGC23363+ with a false A7066 but is ZZ40_1 negative, contradicting the Big Tree (although ZZ40_1 might not be consistent when tested).

112237 has a false A7066.
B10880 also has FGC23363+ and ZZ40_1- but Z419+, FGC13557+, S21184+. Which hints that his A7066 might be correct (although we can't be sure).

Seems like it's a pack, at least for 52129 because he doesn't have the Nat Geo "N" prefix. Probably packs for the others too. I ordered mine as a singular SNP in the advanced orders.

razyn
05-20-2016, 05:43 PM
OK, of the ones currently called A7066 and visible in the DF27 project:

Six are from BigY tests: 133936, N74373, 136884, 223805, 259674, 65753
Six are from Z209 SNP Packs: 52129, N118186, 359985, B10880, 336115, 413718
Three have tested A7066 (at FTDNA) as a single SNP: N48992, 422279, 239851

Note that four of these 15 samples share one surname (with closely matching haplotypes), and have among them a BigY, a Z209 pack, and two single tests.

I haven't moved everybody into the same subgroup yet, because of some uncertainty about either the stability or the "level" of A7066. The two results that seem most inconsistent are 52129 and N118186, both with their A7066+ results from the Z209 pack; but other positive tests from the same pack seem entirely consistent with Alex's Big Tree. Maybe there was a bad batch, a chemical spill, sample contamination -- I really can't imagine what would cause just these anomalies. Sadly, we can't blame any of it on the Geno2+ chip.

I'm not reporting any result from YSEQ, which lab (I believe) named the SNP A7066.* Also, YFull doesn't currently have an A7066+ sample.

Incidentally (or for all I know, significantly), N74373 and 136884 share another SNP at 7746302, A to G, with each other -- but not with the other four BigY-tested A7066 samples.

* Editing this post, while I can, to mention that B1714 and B2335, neither of which is displaying A7066 in green, tested positive for it at YSEQ (and told me so, by email or Facebook messaging). The rest of the A7066 testing data in this post were visible to me via GAP.

gotten
05-20-2016, 09:02 PM
Thank you for looking into this.

The new SNP is a very nice find!

razyn
05-20-2016, 10:15 PM
Thank you for looking into this.

The new SNP is a very nice find!

I've had a chance to check Alex's Mutations Index (no SNP reported there), and also the YFull browser (all DF27 samples have ancestral A; I've previously mentioned that they don't yet have a BAM file from an A7066+ sample). So it looks to me as if the Shared Novel Variant function worked, this time; and 7746302, A to G identifies a real subclade, of a real A7066.

Note that I edited my previous post to add a couple of guys with YSEQ results. I had accidentally omitted them, because GAP didn't tell me that.

ADW_1981
05-20-2016, 10:55 PM
Do you think it's safe to move my kit and my father's to A7066?
We're N48992 and 161818, and I tested a la carte.

Also, if 136884 and N74373 share a potentially new SNP, it would be safe to move N74373 to the A7066+ group right?

razyn
05-20-2016, 11:36 PM
Actually I just asked you in an email if he was any kin.

It's safe to move 136884 and N74373 to a new group below A7066. I just haven't done it yet, there is a certain amount of backing and filling involved, rewriting captions or whatever. I have A7066 guys in at least four groups, at the moment. And a couple showing A7066+ who perhaps should not.

Edit: OK, I moved around about 13 of you, created two new subgroups, and rewrote a couple of captions.

gotten
05-21-2016, 10:34 AM
Richard, you might want to move kit 52129 to S16785+. I think he belongs with the other Burks and his A7066 is probably a false positive from a SNP pack.

I think S16785 is a subclade of S19290 but that is based on a single Yfull kit YF03198 which has a handful of solid reads of S19290+ and S16785-. For the moment we can keep it as equivalent until more evidence accumulates.

razyn
05-21-2016, 01:12 PM
I think S16785 is a subclade of S19290... For the moment we can keep it as equivalent until more evidence accumulates.
A related problem is that FTDNA doesn't actually display anybody as S19290, at present.

It's always something.

And I'm not sure 52129 belongs with the other Burks, some of the off-modals look like Cox (currently next to him) and unlike the guys in S16785. I agree that his DF83+ is wrong, but not necessarily the A7066. I'm pretty sure that one is wrong for N118186, so, it's another possibility.

gotten
05-21-2016, 01:46 PM
And I'm not sure 52129 belongs with the other Burks, some of the off-modals look like Cox (currently next to him) and unlike the guys in S16785. I agree that his DF83+ is wrong, but not necessarily the A7066.
Thank you for the clarification.
Hmmm, I should look at his offmodals in more detail but he also has S19290+ and S16785+. More issues with SNPs?

razyn
05-21-2016, 05:30 PM
Thank you for the clarification.
Hmmm, I should look at his offmodals in more detail but he also has S19290+ and S16785+. More issues with SNPs?
I looked at the "Complete Order History" for the two most problematic A7066 calls -- both still say "Completed -- Pending," and both have FGC13557- calls, along with their A7066+. So I guess I agree that their A7066 calls are erroneous; but I'm unsure what might have caused that (since several other Z209 packs appear to have been right about it). And 52129 does have other errors, such as DF83+ in a sample that is also tested Z195+ and ZZ12-. By contrast, N118186 appears to me to be correctly tagged, as FGC23343+.

KarlT
06-30-2016, 03:18 PM
Hello all

Allow me to introduce myself, I am N118186....... ;-)

I won't pretend (you) are far beyond my knowledge in this area. What exactly is seen as odd in my results? Razyn/Richard, I will ask why you are discussing my test results likely being garbage here, but, unless I missed it, you have said no such thing in the FTDNA project....


Gotten, my initial testing was with National Geographic, I want to say in 2011. I uploaded to FTDNA in late 2015. I've tested up to 111 markers, plus a DF27 pack, and most recently a R-Z209 pack, which led to my being classed at R-FGC23343.

ADW_1981
08-10-2016, 01:53 PM
It seems that there is a new German result in FGC13557 in the DF27+ project that the administrators have moved accordingly in great time.

Is there a compiled list/spreadsheet of S21184+(and below) guys that includes all testers across all platforms including those outside FTDNA, perhaps with country of origin?

Thanks in advance.

razyn
08-10-2016, 02:21 PM
Razyn/Richard, I will ask why you are discussing my test results likely being garbage here, but, unless I missed it, you have said no such thing in the FTDNA project....

Well, I have said a lot of things both places, I don't actually check each post to make sure it has been duplicated. In most cases this specific, I'm replying to a question someone has raised, and usually just in one forum.

The erroneous result that FTDNA used to display by your sample number (A7066+) has been corrected, by completion of the Z209 SNP Pack processing, to the present one; so it's no longer garbage. And you are in group Baad, which btw isn't S21184+ (the topic of this thread, and the position of A7066+ if the call is valid). FGC23343 is, however, in a brother subclade below ZZ40. One might perceive this as fine tuning. But it's necessary to do it, since the error might have you chasing down details of the wrong history for a thousand years or so -- however long your paternal line hasn't actually been in the same subclade as all those A7066 guys in group Baaba.

razyn
08-10-2016, 02:39 PM
It seems that there is a new German result in FGC13557 in the DF27+ project that the administrators have moved accordingly in great time.
Assuming you mean 514939 Lehmann, his new BigY .vcf file is already in Alex W's hands. He will btw be on the Big Tree branch with B2323 Gibault, which family isn't German. They have some shared novel variants that the rest of you don't have, so that branch will be getting a few SNPs instead of an asterisk (once Alex gets it analyzed).


Is there a compiled list/spreadsheet of S21184+(and below) guys that includes all testers across all platforms including those outside FTDNA, perhaps with country of origin?
Stop it, you're killing me!

I mean, no.

ADW_1981
09-06-2016, 01:51 PM
Although I know I am A7066+, is there any value in determining these novel variants? If so, what test would be the best to use (value wise) at this point to be compatible with AlexW's tree? I guess a BigY test would fit the bill? Alternatively, I may consider sponsoring Z209 packs for eligible N-S people who express interest if that is more beneficial (value wise).

razyn
09-06-2016, 02:25 PM
Mike W has made some noises on the Yahoo group about revisions of the SNP Packs, but I don't know anything about the schedule for that. Probably the people who are most numerous in their customer base get the most attention, and that would be L21 and its most Irish subclades. We aren't exactly off the radar, DF27 guys have bought a lot of BigY tests too, but at some level the percentages get played. If our three packs (so far) get updated I'd guess the DF27 Pack might be higher priority there than the Z209 or Z198 ones. Totally guessing, though. I just think that's where their market growth potential would lie. There may be informed discussion of this issue in a couple of months at the conference for admins in Houston. I've never gone to one; it's always in Houston, and I've been there.

ADW_1981
11-21-2016, 03:20 PM
The Yfull tree now has a Sardinian (southern Sardinian) and an Israeli kit (מחוז ‎הדרום southern district) under S19290+. The wide distribution of this old (3500-4000 ybp) group never ceases to amaze.

ADW_1981
12-02-2016, 03:02 PM
I was scanning the Swedish Project and I noticed another 3 kits who might belong to the Swedish/Finnish subclade under S19290+. I looked at the haplotypes and it appears it might be the case. I don't know the method for calculating an age on these 7 kits. It's not ancient but not all that recent either based on STR. I'd be interested in funding these kits if the opportunity arose... MDKA of 2/3 kits is SE/E Sweden which lines up with the general area of the other kits.

N42261
N52383
411315

razyn
12-02-2016, 06:14 PM
I was scanning the Swedish Project and I noticed another 3 kits who might belong to the Swedish/Finnish subclade under S19290+. I looked at the haplotypes and it appears it might be the case. I don't know the method for calculating an age on these 7 kits. It's not ancient but not all that recent either based on STR. I'd be interested in funding these kits if the opportunity arose... MDKA of 2/3 kits is SE/E Sweden which lines up with the general area of the other kits.

N42261
N52383
411315
All three are members of the P312 project at FTDNA, so I can see their names and email addresses, and some other data. What test(s) are you interested in funding? I could email and tell them. Could also move them into the DF27 project, but not back out if they aren't what you think, so I don't usually do that.

ADW_1981
12-02-2016, 07:58 PM
All three are members of the P312 project at FTDNA, so I can see their names and email addresses, and some other data. What test(s) are you interested in funding? I could email and tell them. Could also move them into the DF27 project, but not back out if they aren't what you think, so I don't usually do that.

Are you able to easily see the GD difference between them and the Swedish/Finnish cluster under S19290+? If it's close enough I would pay for those SNPs exclusively, unless there is a better suggestion that could potentially put them in this group such as a Z209 pack. I know N42261 is Z209 for sure.

razyn
12-02-2016, 10:59 PM
Are you able to easily see the GD difference between them and the Swedish/Finnish cluster under S19290+?

Do you refer to our subgroup presently called Baaaa? Or something else, like a cluster in the Swedish project you mentioned (that I don't administer, and haven't looked at)?

Just as a rule of thumb, I don't pay any attention to Genetic Distance, as such. It's greatly overrated, and wildly misleading for many people (especially if they have tested down to a terminal SNP several steps below DF27). Off-modal STR values, shared by people who have tested to the same recent SNP, are usually significant -- especially if there are several of them. That would tend to be a meaningful "cluster." A well known example is the "North/South Cluster" of three off-modals that used to be the pointers for the group we now call Z209. Clustering with GD of 7 at 67, or whatever, is often a hint, but not proof of anything.

ADW_1981
12-03-2016, 12:11 AM
Do you refer to our subgroup presently called Baaaa? Or something else, like a cluster in the Swedish project you mentioned (that I don't administer, and haven't looked at)?

Just as a rule of thumb, I don't pay any attention to Genetic Distance, as such. It's greatly overrated, and wildly misleading for many people (especially if they have tested down to a terminal SNP several steps below DF27). Off-modal STR values, shared by people who have tested to the same recent SNP, are usually significant -- especially if there are several of them. That would tend to be a meaningful "cluster." A well known example is the "North/South Cluster" of three off-modals that used to be the pointers for the group we now call Z209. Clustering with GD of 7 at 67, or whatever, is often a hint, but not proof of anything.

Yes, all 3 men are NS-cluster on the three markers. It's okay, I can look at the STR and figure out the GD, I know that nothing is for certain.

gotten
12-04-2016, 06:15 PM
411315 looks like it is part of the Swedish group under S19290 based on off-modals DYS594=11 and DYS534=16. The other two look like a group on their own somewhere below S21184 (at least they are Z295-). Not sure if they are S19290 or FGC13557.

ADW_1981
12-10-2016, 07:18 PM
There is a FGC13557+ kit from a Highland Scottish clan, although apparently, there doesn't seem to be a single male progenitor in this clan, he is an outlier. It also appears that E6393 of German origin is also S19290, although this SNP isn't currently showing as his terminal SNP.

gotten
12-10-2016, 08:40 PM
There is a FGC13557+ kit from a Highland Scottish clan, although apparently, there doesn't seem to be a single male progenitor in this clan, he is an outlier. It also appears that E6393 of German origin is also S19290, although this SNP isn't currently showing as his terminal SNP.

I have been in contact with E6393 before because based on STR he resembled the kits in my subbranch (GD=4, it was a bit of a gamble because he only tested to Y37). His earliest ancestor traces to Pomerania (North Germany) and appears to have been born elsewhere (location unknown).

ehjelt
12-17-2016, 09:56 AM
Are you able to easily see the GD difference between them and the Swedish/Finnish cluster under S19290+? If it's close enough I would pay for those SNPs exclusively, unless there is a better suggestion that could potentially put them in this group such as a Z209 pack. I know N42261 is Z209 for sure.

I administer a FB-group (private) of this Scandinavian S19290 folk. Nine tested (4 Finnish, 3 Swedish, 411315 one of them and 2 US), all of them are of Swedish origin. Five Big-Ys made. The problem is that the rest don't want to do any SNP-tests. I can deliver you all GD-differences of all of them, if I somehow get your e-mail. You are also welcome to our group (we use English) with the name Searching Our Ancestors.

ehjelt
12-30-2016, 09:50 AM
A few days ago came a Big-Y result S21184+ S16785+ Y16854+ BY3276- (#258526). Kit #367017 had a similar result about a year ago. Dick, are you considering a new group to them?

razyn
12-30-2016, 10:17 PM
A few days ago came a Big-Y result S21184+ S16785+ Y16854+ BY3276- (#258526). Kit #367017 had a similar result about a year ago. Dick, are you considering a new group to them?
As far as I know, #367017 is not in any group I administer, or co-administer. The new guy (#258526) on the other hand is my distant cousin (not on his YDNA line, but from a female descendant with his surname). The only group I could create with him at the moment would be with #258527, who is his known cousin and has 67 STR markers but no SNP tests. I have very weak Family Finder matches with them; their paternal MDKA would be my 6x great grandfather, though I can't prove it to the satisfaction of lineage societies and the like.

Anyway I guess Alex will at least break up that group on the Big Tree, once he has the .vcf file from #258526. His branch will parallel your side with BY3276+.

ehjelt
12-31-2016, 01:17 PM
To ADW_1981 and gotten

If you are interested to know more about the “Swedish cluster” under R-S19290 you are invited to join our FB-group. There you can get summaries of our test results which are meant for private use only. For privacy reasons I think this is a better way than showing the results publicly. I would appreciate your comments on our documents and ideas also.

Please, make a request to join the group “Searching Our Ancestors” if you like the idea.

(I tried to send this as PM, but have not made 10 posts yet to be allowed. This is my 9th post so things are getting better soon.)

ADW_1981
01-01-2017, 12:04 AM
A few days ago came a Big-Y result S21184+ S16785+ Y16854+ BY3276- (#258526). Kit #367017 had a similar result about a year ago. Dick, are you considering a new group to them?

It looks like 367017 is a Jewish kit, possibly the one at Yfull? Not sure. It would be awesome if he joined the DF27 project. Also, kit#258526 has MDKA from Wales, but the surname indicates otherwise - Yorkshire, which seems to be a hotspot for S21184+ kits in general in England.

razyn
01-01-2017, 12:20 AM
Also, kit#258526 has MDKA from Wales, but the surname indicates otherwise - Yorkshire, which seems to be a hotspot for S21184+ kits in general in England.
Well, they were only in Wales for a couple of generations; then Maryland (and points west and south) for about the last 300 years, but that's the wrong side of the Atlantic for anyone to take seriously. Cromwell had run them off from Whaddon Hall in Buckinghamshire during the Civil War, so MI6 could use it for a wireless installation in the 1940s. Or something.

Whether they were ever in Yorkshire, where that surname putatively arose (probably among other places), is more speculative. Could be.

gotten
01-01-2017, 12:33 PM
To ADW_1981 and gotten
If you are interested to know more about the “Swedish cluster” under R-S19290 you are invited to join our FB-group. There you can get summaries of our test results which are meant for private use only. For privacy reasons I think this is a better way than showing the results publicly. I would appreciate your comments on our documents and ideas also.

Please, make a request to join the group “Searching Our Ancestors” if you like the idea.
(I tried to send this as PM, but have not made 10 posts yet to be allowed. This is my 9th post so things are getting better soon.)

Thank you very much for your invitation. Unfortunately I don't use Facebook so I'll have to read about your findings with a bit of a delay (through Yfull and Big Tree).

Did anybody else notice that Gibault (B2323) and Lehmann (514939) below FGC13557 share a nice number of SNPs?
Same goes for Smith (556015) and Jorgensen (B66194) below S19290.

Furthermore, kit 463559 McKinnon-Stokes shares 3 'rejected' variants below FGC13557 with Penders and me which might suggest he is related a few hundred years closer to the present than the rest of FGC13557.
One variant is in the IR1_L region, one in the IR3_Dst region and one in P5_Prx. [IR = inverted repeat, P = palindromic] I have mixed reads at those places in my .bam file while others that are FGC13557+ and FGC13557- have solid reads (same as the reference).
I'll doublecheck the private mutations of McKinnon-Stokes to see if there is a proper testable SNP that is shared by myself or Penders.

razyn
01-14-2017, 01:08 AM
A few days ago came a Big-Y result S21184+ S16785+ Y16854+ BY3276- (#258526). Kit #367017 had a similar result about a year ago. Dick, are you considering a new group to them?

My cousin 258526 has been on the Big Tree for a couple of days now, but so far only as a sort of BY3276*. Maybe Alex will notice the negative for that one before the background color goes from pink to white. We know somewhat more, but the other guy hasn't joined one of the projects that matters, nor uploaded his data so Alex can see his novel variant matches with 258526.

ehjelt
01-14-2017, 09:33 AM
My cousin 258526 has been on the Big Tree for a couple of days now, but so far only as a sort of BY3276*. Maybe Alex will notice the negative for that one before the background color goes from pink to white. We know somewhat more, but the other guy hasn't joined one of the projects that matters, nor uploaded his data so Alex can see his novel variant matches with 258526.

As far as I can observe 258526 and 367017 share all their known SNPs and in addition 7 of their Novels which are the same as Alex has defined so far for 25856. Do you think it can be presumed 367017 has the same position in BigTree? I wonder why 367017 spends much to Big-Y but doesn’t want to make any analyzing with his results.

ADW_1981
01-25-2017, 05:34 PM
A couple new "brothers" results are in under S19290+. Kit#N42261 and kit#E6393. MDKA is eastern Sweden and northern Germany respectively. FTDNA software is glitching out and not showing this SNP in the terminal SNP section for some reason. They are both negative for the BY3276/BY3280 mutations which seems to be part of the downstream Swedish/Finnish cluster.

ADW_1981
02-03-2017, 04:09 PM
Another S21184+ kit joined #376848 the DF27 project. It looks like they are FGC13557-, but it's possible (I think), unless there is raw data that states otherwise, that they could still be part of S19290+. They have MDKA as unknown, but it's rather clear the most likely origin is France unless family history would state otherwise.

I've also noticed a few "Burgess" kits could fall under S21884+ in another project. This is interesting because it's a surname equivalent of Burke although I recall some STR variation and could be coincidental.

razyn
02-06-2017, 07:10 PM
I shuffled some of these people a bit, today. Former subgroup Bc* became Babb, per the Big Tree, BY3333 is a brother clade to A8344/BY3033 (for which we already had a subgroup). So I rewrote their definitions a bit, did not actually move the people but their groups perhaps slid around the tree, a little. Also the "parent" clade of Baba and Babb doesn't exist at FTDNA yet, as nobody is specifically being tested for it (BY13463).

Kit N42261 is S19290+ but S16785-. So I rewrote the caption of subgroup Baaa by a few words. I don't believe S19290 itself is visible on the FTDNA haplotree. I requested the SNP test for it 2/23/2015; I'm fairly sure they can test it, but I tend not to track whether that is actually happening or not. It was on the Chromo2 chip, as was S16785. At the time Jim Wilson released some data about them, the people in his database (BritainsDNA, by any other name) who were positive for one were also positive for the other.

ehjelt
02-08-2017, 09:44 AM
That's right, S19290 is not visible in the FTDNA haplotree. Instead S16785 is visible in brown color. I have S19290 tested positive. Because of what razyn just wrote, I ordered the S16785 test.

ehjelt
02-09-2017, 08:46 AM
A new member added to the Swedish Cluster of S19290, kit 408063 tested positive to BY3276. MDKA b. 1851 in Sweden.

razyn
02-09-2017, 01:12 PM
These guys can be tricky to find, lately -- he's been in Ub, not "ungrouped." FTDNA has apparently "improved" the STR results display recently. I like that the STR name for each column stays visible all the time, but it greatly slows the scrolling and searching functions, for a large project. Also the maximum number that can be displayed seems fixed at 1000, and using colorized results I have been resetting that to 2500. We are closing in on 1750 members, and with all the extra lines added (for Min-Max-Modal) the colorized version has been over 2000 lines for most of a year. Using the "find" function of one's browser only searches the page that's displayed, not the other two. Also it doesn't find project members who haven't tested any STRs (mainly, the Genographic project transfers), but who show up in the SNP results if they are in some DF27 subclade that was tested on the pertinent chip.

ehjelt
03-11-2017, 09:28 AM
My S16785 has changed from Presumed Positive to Tested Positive. I think this is true for the whole Swedish Cluster of S19290 (group Baaaa ) also. I have observed only two guys having S19290+ and S16785- , namely N42261 and YF03198. (Not found the kit# for YF03198). Is it so that Baaaa is rather parallel to those two than under them?

ADW_1981
03-15-2017, 04:36 PM
My S16785 has changed from Presumed Positive to Tested Positive. I think this is true for the whole Swedish Cluster of S19290 (group Baaaa ) also. I have observed only two guys having S19290+ and S16785- , namely N42261 and YF03198. (Not found the kit# for YF03198). Is it so that Baaaa is rather parallel to those two than under them?

YF03198 = #367017

ehjelt
03-16-2017, 11:01 AM
YF03198 = #367017

I think YF03198 ≠ #367017.

1) Their GD = 18/58.
2) YF03198 has S16785 tested negative but #367017 has S16785 positive on FTDNA haplotree. FTDNA has not tested S16785 but Terminal SNP for #367017 is Y16584 which is under S16785.
3) A year ago I suggested the lady admin of #367017 to send BAM to YFull but she was not interested. YF03198 was also not familiar to her. So I don’t think #367017 is at YFull.

ehjelt
03-16-2017, 11:49 AM
A new member to Swedish Cluster of S19290. BigY is ready for #521174 from Southern Sweden: S21184+>BY3276+>BY13494+.

ADW_1981
03-16-2017, 01:49 PM
I think YF03198 ≠ #367017.

1) Their GD = 18/58.
2) YF03198 has S16785 tested negative but #367017 has S16785 positive on FTDNA haplotree. FTDNA has not tested S16785 but Terminal SNP for #367017 is Y16584 which is under S16785.
3) A year ago I suggested the lady admin of #367017 to send BAM to YFull but she was not interested. YF03198 was also not familiar to her. So I don’t think #367017 is at YFull.

Interesting, that means there are 2 Jewish men in S19290.... #367017 is Saltiel's kit, but YF03198 identifies their country of origin as Israel, so that makes two I guess.

ADW_1981
04-21-2017, 06:43 PM
Does anyone know if kit#155312 posts here? I'd like to sponsor a SNP pack over the DNA discount days at FTNDA. Origin might be a Szekler (German/Saxon?) but have not yet reached out.

razyn
04-21-2017, 10:31 PM
Does anyone know if kit#155312 posts here? I'd like to sponsor a SNP pack over the DNA discount days at FTNDA. Origin might be a Szekler (German/Saxon?) but have not yet reached out.

I have sent the owner of that kit an email, will let you know if there is a response.

ADW_1981
04-22-2017, 03:38 PM
This is kit is my closest YDNA relative in all of the databases by both SNP and STR including YSearch, so I won't deny my interests are selfish.

ehjelt
05-19-2017, 04:56 PM
A new member added to haplogroup S19290 in Yfull Ytree: a Sardinian ERS257022. Now in the root of S19290 there are an Israeli and a Sardinian and two Americans. All others are Nordic. Have I a reason to be confused?

gotten
05-19-2017, 11:08 PM
A new member added to haplogroup S19290 in Yfull Ytree: a Sardinian ERS257022. Now in the root of S19290 there are an Israeli and a Sardinian and two Americans. All others are Nordic. Have I a reason to be confused?

It's still possible. First of all, the Yfull's MDKA locations are self-reported and therefore error-prone (even if we ignore things like non-paternal events). But probably most important, S19290 is quite old and descendants could have ended up all across Europe in the time since its formation.

Most of the Nordic people are in a particular subclade that is a lot younger than S19290 itself.

I think we need a lot more data before patterns start to emerge at the first level of subclades below S21184.

ADW_1981
05-19-2017, 11:35 PM
Do we know anything about the ancestry of the Americans?

ADW_1981
05-29-2017, 04:31 PM
I noticed another Danish kit was put under S19290+, but I couldn't see a positive for this SNP in his results. Is there an equivalent somewhere I am missing? Also, I believe Wollenberg is confirmed S19290+ despite it not displaying as his terminal SNP and he can probably be moved to this category from S21184+.

razyn
05-29-2017, 04:49 PM
I noticed another Danish kit was put under S19290+, but I couldn't see a positive for this SNP in his results.
I searched for it in his BigY "Known SNPs" and it was there:
16376
I agree that Wollenberg can be moved, and will do that. Apparently S19290 isn't on their haplotree, at the moment. Oddly, S16785 is on FTDNA's, but not on the Big Tree. For some time I had them at the same level, based on the Chromo2 2000 spreadsheet several years ago (before any BigY tests); all the guys who were positive for one were positive for the other. But IIRC we have examples in the DF27 project that are S19290+ but S16785-.

razyn
06-01-2017, 02:07 PM
251354 also has S19290 called positive in his BigY Known Variants, but again that's not in green on his current display because it isn't currently on the FTDNA tree at all. I reported this SNP to FTDNA as mutually exclusive with FGC13557 on 2/23/2015, and those SNP tests were on their menu as of 4/10/2015. I'll move 251354 from Baaba to Baaa, for the present. I've posted a little more detail on the chat this member has been conducting on the "activity feed" of the DF27 project, which a couple of you monitor. (And I'll be away from the Internet most of today, so, don't anticipate a lot more chatter right away.)

razyn
06-02-2017, 08:47 PM
251354 also has S19290 called positive in his BigY Known Variants, but again that's not in green on his current display because it isn't currently on the FTDNA tree at all.
These same strictures apply to yet another new member with BigY results in hand, who joined today. Kit number is 326402, FTDNA calls S21184, but I have placed him in group Baaa because I can see S19290+ in his "Known SNP" results.

ADW_1981
06-03-2017, 11:19 PM
The ancestor seems to be http://hobbytree.blogspot.ca/2012/02/heinrich-summerauer-1722-1792.html. I'm not sure why the kit labels the country of origin as Switzerland rather than Germany..

KBH
06-04-2017, 04:28 PM
Hey - Not understadnding much of all this yet - But I just got my result of BigY from FamilytreeDNA. My kit is #B1442 - and my Y-DNA haplogroup is R-S21184, and mtDNA haplogroup is U4a

So what does it mean ?

Thanks
K

razyn
06-05-2017, 12:12 AM
@KBH, I moved you into subgroup Baa on May 25, based on the S19290+ I can see in your BigY "Known SNPs" list. But actually you just got a new SNP (or two) named by Alex for the Big Tree: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2409&star=false

This part of the tree seems to be changing a few times a week, lately. I guess it will get straightened out eventually. It's currently hard for me to keep pace.

KBH
06-24-2017, 04:32 PM
Thanks razyn.
I'm afraid I still do not understand much :)
Where have you moved me?
KR Kasper

razyn
06-24-2017, 04:59 PM
Sorry, I left out one letter (said subgroup Baa, it was actually Baaa) and couldn't edit the post by the time I noticed the error. Anyway, the subgroups are visible (if you are a project member, and have any STR results that make you visible) in the STR Results display, either classic or colorized. This is the main project url: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1b-df27/about/background

And if you still don't see yourself, maybe you aren't signed in at FTDNA? This is what I see:
17159

And by the way, that's one of the larger examples of a DF27 subclade that does not look Iberian, in the least. Notice also that FTDNA currently doesn't call anybody S19290 (but I do, in the caption of this subgroup). And Alex's Big Tree does not call anybody S16785 -- but FTDNA does. Their current algorithm doesn't know that S16785 is a subclade of S19290.

ADW_1981
06-26-2017, 08:13 PM
SNP Pack Z209 results for kit#155312 are taking their sweet time...

ADW_1981
06-29-2017, 02:22 AM
Kit #155312 results came in A7066+ and is my closest Y-relative in the FTDNA database per genetic distance. (Which isn't saying much in terms of very recent history) I believe the MDKA male ancestor is from Ghelinta, Romania which seems to be of Székely (Hungarian) origin. Looking a bit deeper in to the history of the province, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Sz%C3%A9kely_people, there was likely a Saxon contingent that moved to the Carpathians as well.

I haven't reached out to the kit owner for family history, but I find it very fascinating!

Bormanus
07-06-2017, 08:56 PM
Hello, i'm from Piedmont (NW Italy) and i'm DF27>S19290+ tested with Yseq.

ADW_1981
07-13-2017, 08:58 PM
Hello, i'm from Piedmont (NW Italy) and i'm DF27>S19290+ tested with Yseq.

If you're in a FTDNA project, drop a note with the administrator, you might be able to get moved.

gotten
11-28-2017, 11:09 AM
kit 231236 Penders had a STR match at Y67 with Dyck, a line with traceable Mennonite ancestry. By manual comparison I could see I also matched him but with slightly more genetic distance (just beyond the FTDNA cutoff). I was pretty convinced he was genetically related to both Penders and Otten lines and he was kind enough to upgrade to Big-Y. His results came in yesterday; he shares all mutations that I share with Penders and actually shares at least one more SNP with Penders, which I don't have: hg38 chrY:21150324. Mine is a "T", theirs is a "G". The split between Otten and Penders is between 180 AD and 1210 AD at 95% confidence according to Ytree.net and between 400 AD and 1450 AD at 95% confidence according to Yfull. The match between Penders and Dyck is likely a few hundred years more recent.

gotten
01-13-2018, 02:56 PM
It seems that FTDNA has updated their tree in the vicinity of S21184+. The FTDNA DF27 group admins have already resorted us into new subgroups.

I now have FGC43319 as SNP (one of many phylogenetically equivalent SNPs). Penders and Dyck share the underlying mutation BY32751 (which I assume is the previously mentioned G at hg38 chrY:21150324).
MacKinnon has BY32742, so it looks like there is actually another person in his branch now (who is not a member of DF27 group yet). Alex Willamson shows in Big Tree that MacKinnon and the FGC43319 branch share several ambiguous SNPs in regions that are hard to disentangle. I hope that we can someday find a reliable shared SNP between these two branches (personal bias). But that might need Long Read techniques and a lot of luck.
The branch with the presumably German Lehmann and French Gibault now has a match with the Italian Smargiassi, which breaks their long block of equivalent SNPs (FGC13563 seems to be the earliest shared SNP).
Below A7066 a whole mini-tree has formed with shared SNP BY32732.

Pretty exciting to see all these changes, hope that FTDNA continues this so we can have a proper tree using their full database. Hope that the BY's will end up on Ybrowse so others can make use of them.

miremont
01-13-2018, 03:06 PM
Pretty exciting to see all these changes, hope that FTDNA continues this so we can have a proper tree using their full database. Hope that the BY's will end up on Ybrowse so others can make use of them.

Good to hear. Now hopefully they will soon reorganise the Z209 group, which is sorely out of sync with Ytree.net.

razyn
01-13-2018, 04:26 PM
It seems that FTDNA has updated their tree in the vicinity of S21184+. The FTDNA DF27 group admins have already re-sorted us into new subgroups.

Lucas has re-sorted us (the other admins are not helping or hindering that, since late July); and he works directly with Michael Sager, who has some tools not available to admins for checking .bed files, etc. to confirm the new branches. The process began with the ZZ12 side, so some parts of it have been worked over more diligently than others. (That has some effect on what miremont wishes for in the next post, about Z209.)

Michael can also see BigY results of people who have taken the test but haven't joined a haplogroup project. We admins can't; and usually Alex (YTree) can't, either -- because FTDNA customers who aren't in (R1b) haplogroup projects tend also not to know that there is a Big Tree, and haven't made their .vcf or BAM files available to Alex (or anybody else) for analysis. However, Alex does look at FGC tests (as supplied to him), the 1000 Genomes project data, and some other sources about which FTDNA tends to be uninformed. At least Alex, Michael and Lucas play nicely together, at present.


Hope that the BY's will end up on Ybrowse so others can make use of them.

The most diligent submitter of new SNP data to YBrowse is Thomas Krahn, and I don't believe BY SNPs are either submitted to him, or by him to YBrowse, as anybody's high priority. The same new SNP may be known to YSEQ; and if they named it, it begins with an A (in a numerical sequence independent of the BY number). YFull, CTS, PH and others may also have named the same SNP independently. Usually it takes a while to discover and coordinate everybody's version, and none of them must follow the same criteria for naming SNPs (such as requiring a match between two sequenced samples, maybe even from different surnames; omitting indels; requiring that they be in specific unambiguous regions, especially those not mirrored on the X chromosome; excluding SNPs on the Y chromosome's palindromes, etc.). These varying levels of restriction are one of the main drivers of the wildly varying trees we see, depending on where we look. The other main driver is that the preparers of the trees don't all have access to the same data.

ADW_1981
01-21-2018, 02:08 AM
There seems to be further resolution with the Big Ys of a few more kits that have come in. Not sure where the positions fall exactly, but looks to be under S19290+ related branches, more Germanic surnames. Iberian origin seems next to impossible, or a real stretch at this point.

gotten
05-05-2018, 05:41 PM
The split between Otten and Penders is between 180 AD and 1210 AD at 95% confidence according to Ytree.net and between 400 AD and 1450 AD at 95% confidence according to Yfull. The match between Penders and Dyck is likely a few hundred years more recent.

Considering the Penders and Otten families are from a very specific region of the Netherlands (MDKAs 10 to 20 km away from each other), and Penders and Dyck are slightly closer related than Otten and Penders-Dyck (based on SNPs), it would appear that the Dyck family has an origin in the same geographical region. If true, this is a very big discovery for the Dyck family. I discussed this with Tim Janzen and the Big-Y tester from the Dyck family and they seemed to be as intrigued as I am.

The Dyck member is now also on Alex Williamson's Big Tree. Apart from the one high quality testable SNP, there are also a 2-3 others shared between Penders and Dyck in ambiguous regions.

IAmMe
05-06-2018, 01:51 AM
Hi all, I didn't know exactly where to post this but I'm hoping someone can help me. I uploaded both my Ancestry and 23andMe data to wegenes and both uploads gave me the Iberian Y haplogroup, R1b M167. 23andMe says I'm P311 which is very general, so I decided to look through the raw data to find a subclade. I figured out how to read my raw data and looked for the M167 mutation at rs1800865 position 2658271 G Alt. A, but neither of my raw data files has it. I looked for other subclades and could only find Celtic R1b L21 at rs11799226 position 15654428 C C and Germanic R1b U106 at rs16981293 position 8796078 C C. Should I trust the raw data or wegenes?

ADW_1981
06-05-2018, 02:03 AM
Alex Williamson's tree is becoming quite robust. Hopefully some more BigYs will be on order with the Father's Day sale.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=766&star=false