PDA

View Full Version : The Major Y-Chromosome Haplogroup R1b-M269 in West-Europe, Lucotte.et.al.2015



jeanL
02-15-2015, 08:52 PM
This isn't exactly new stuff, but there is something that sort of sticks out:

The Major Y-Chromosome Haplogroup R1b-M269 in West-Europe, Subdivided by the Three SNPs S21/U106, S145/L21 and S28/U152, Shows a Clear Pattern of Geographic Differentiation (http://www.scirp.org/Journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=53754)



ABSTRACT

More than 2600 unrelated males from West-Europe were analysed by molecular hybridization experiments for the p49a,fTaq I polymorphisms. A total of 895 subjects (34%), belonging to haplogroup M269, were identified and further analysed for the three SNPs, S21/U106, S145/L21 and S28/U152; these three SNPs define the Northwest, West and South European sub-haplogroups, respectively. These haplogroups showed quite different frequency distribution patterns within West-Europe, with frequency peaks in Northern Europe, in Brittany in France and in Northern Italy/Southern France.

Citation:Lucotte, G. (2015). The Major Y-Chromosome Haplogroup R1b-M269 in West-Europe, Subdivided by the Three SNPs S21/U106, S145/L21 and S28/U152, Shows a Clear Pattern of Geographic Differentiation. Advances in Anthropology, 5, 22-30. doi: 10.4236/aa.2015.51003. (http://www.scirp.org/Journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=53754)


2. Subjects and Methods Used
The population sample (29 populations) consisted of 2618 unrelated adult males from West-Europe (Table 1);
they originate from 13 countries. All samples of blood were collected from volunteer donors, with informed
consent; their classification was based on their grandfathers’ birthplaces. The geographic location of the populations
analysed is shown in Figure 1.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Lucotteetal2015-Table-1_zpse0178c0b.jpg (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Lucotteetal2015-Table-1_zpse0178c0b.jpg.html)

Notice the low frequency of R1b-M269 in almost all Western European populations! I first noticed that the Spanish Basques had 28/52 R1b-M269+ derived clades, now given the relatively low sample size it could be just a random thing, though pretty much every location previously sampled even with a low sample size yields R1b-M269+ frequencies in the 80%+. Also notice the higher than normal frequency of R-S28/R-U152 with 5/28 or 17.9% while the lower frequency of R1b-S145/R1b-L21 at 4/28 or 14.3%. This might be due to small sampling, but as I said no such thing was observed in the Begoña Martinez-Cruz study from 2012. In any case the samples from the French Basques is greater, they sampled 97 people, and of those 70 or 72.2% had R1b-M269+ derived clades, but only 1 or 1.4% had R-S28/R-U152, and 2 or 2.9% had R1b-S145/R1b-L21. I wonder if the coordinates they gave in the map are the exact location where the donors grandparents came from, or is just a generic location:

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Lucotteetal2015-Figure-1_zps91172ef4.jpg (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Lucotteetal2015-Figure-1_zps91172ef4.jpg.html)

I said this because the location of the Spanish Basques when I put the coordinates on Google Earth I get the following town:

Lerin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ler%C3%ADn)

Now the French Basque sample appears to come from an early study from the 1990s:

Y-chromosome DNA haplotypes in Basques. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8642617)

Again I'm not sure what gives? Barcelona R1b-M269+ frequency is 24/59 or 40.7%, and Sevilla 21/71 or 29.6%, Portugal South 17/59 or 28.8%. It seems there is something going on with this study, perhaps he missed something, or their R1b-M269 marker PCR reactions did not work properly. Not sure what's happening here. Here is what he said:


All the SNPs (Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms) are tested by PCR (Polymerase Chain Reaction) in the following order: M269, S127, S116, S21, S145 and S28. Table 2 gives primers used for S21/U106 (rs16981293), S145/L21 (rs11799226) and S28/U152 (rs1236440). Samples were amplified in a standard PCR reaction and the SNaPshot Multiplex System (Life Technology Corp, Carlsbad, California, USA). SNP markers S127/L11, S116/P312 and S250/DF27 were also typed in our DNA sample of 2618 subjects; but, because they correspond to no or to very low numbers of individuals having not the subsequent markers S21, S28 and S145 (that is, L11*, P312* and DF27*, respectively), the corresponding results concerning these markers are not tabulated in the present study.

Thoughts??

Huntergatherer1066
02-16-2015, 02:50 AM
I know that Advances in Anthropology is not a reputable academic journal, I remember my professors specifically warning us about citing articles from it in graduate school. I'm not surprised that his findings seem a bit off.

razyn
02-16-2015, 03:00 AM
Don't most of the (numerous) Basque descendants of M269 belong to R1b-DF27, as distinguished from the three clades for which this sample was tested?

jeanL
02-16-2015, 05:38 AM
Don't most of the (numerous) Basque descendants of M269 belong to R1b-DF27, as distinguished from the three clades for which this sample was tested?

It hasn't been formally tested yet, but the vast majority of Basques belonged to R1b-P312(xL21,U152) per the Martinez-Cruz.et.al.2012 study. I know my lineage which is deep rooted in the Basque Country is at least R1b-DF27(xM65,M153,SRY2627), there is another user of Basque descent but he is R1b-L21, so it seems per the formal study we have R1b-P312(xL21,U152) as majority, but R1b-L21 still makes in from 10-20% in numerous regions.

Krefter
02-16-2015, 06:14 AM
It hasn't been formally tested yet, but the vast majority of Basques belonged to R1b-P312(xL21,U152) per the Martinez-Cruz.et.al.2012 study. I know my lineage which is deep rooted in the Basque Country is at least R1b-DF27(xM65,M153,SRY2627), there is another user of Basque descent but he is R1b-L21, so it seems per the formal study we have R1b-P312(xL21,U152) as majority, but R1b-L21 still makes in from 10-20% in numerous regions.

Here's a link (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zimpEGGHFtrk.kVNIcV7mwmCA) from rms2's signature which shows the distribution of R1b-subclades in Europe. Something is up with Lucotte.et.al.2015 because Basque are certainty mostly L11 and P312. It's suggesting they're mostly M269*(xL11) which would be huge news.

I think I might take a Y SNP test at FTDNA now. FTDNA was able to tell by looking at my STRs that I have P312, are they able to do the same with Df27(meaning I don't have Df27)? I've been tested for every major P312 clade, including a tiny "Germanic" ones and am negative. Honestly i hope I don't have Df27 because my P312 would be more mysterious.

Hopefully once the R1b-P312 bearing Bell beaker individual from 2200BC has his genome released to the public someone will get calls in a SNP in the major modern P312 subclades.

Dubhthach
02-16-2015, 12:20 PM
No Irish sample I note, it's kinda weird that they tested for U106 but not for it's "brother" P312. Then again it would be hard to go on with their "Basque subclade" malarkey if all the Basques were P312* ;)

ArmandoR1b
02-16-2015, 08:14 PM
I think I might take a Y SNP test at FTDNA now. FTDNA was able to tell by looking at my STRs that I have P312, are they able to do the same with DF27(meaning I don't have DF27)? I've been tested for every major P312 clade, including a tiny "Germanic" ones and am negative. Honestly i hope I don't have DF27 because my P312 would be more mysterious.

No, they are not able to predict who is DF27 based off of STRs unless there is very close match to someone that is positive for DF27. A lot of the subclade "predicting" they do below a major haplogroup is based off of matches and not on the values of the STRs.

ArmandoR1b
02-16-2015, 08:21 PM
Here are the values from Martínez Cruz et al for the Spanish side of the Basque Country, and adjacent regions, that I pulled from the Supplementary Data - xls file. I labeled the P312(xL21,U152) as DF27 because almost 100% of people with ancestry from Spain that are P312(xL21,U152) end up positive for DF27 after testing for it.

3790

http://i.imgur.com/zODxB0A.png


source: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/12/molbev.mss091/suppl/DC1

Isidro
02-20-2015, 03:43 PM
50 Catalan Surnames spanning 500 years back.


Source: Supplementary data,
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/suppinfo/ejhg201514s1.html

r1b-Z278*=74
r1b-Z268*=3
r1b-Z220*=199
r1b-Z195*=132
r1b-U152=199
r1b-U106*=51
r1b-Z381=59
r1b-SRY2627=222
r1b-P312*=371
r1b-P311*=11
r1b-M343*=22
r1b-M153=21
r1b-L23*=1
r1b-L21*=139
r1b=21

Asterisks used as per study.
Total R1b=1,525
Total all haplogroups= 2,309

ArmandoR1b
02-20-2015, 05:15 PM
50 Catalan Surnames spanning 500 years back.
500 years was the average age of the surnames for paternal transmission per the abstract. Many of them go back much further than 500 years but they weren't always transmitted through the direct paternal line for various reasons. Did Catalunya have a habit of naming some of the children after a maternal grandfather like southern Spain did?




Source: Supplementary data,
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/suppinfo/ejhg201514s1.html

r1b-Z278*=75
r1b-Z268=3
r1b-Z220*=200
r1b-Z195*=133
r1b-U152=200
r1b-U106*=52
r1b-Z381=60
r1b-SRY2627=223
r1b-P312*=372
r1b-P311*=11
r1b-M343*=22
r1b-M153=22
r1b-L23*=1
r1b-L21*=140
r1b=22

Asterisks used as per study.
Total R1b=1,536
Total all haplogroups= 2,308
r1b = 66%

Has anyone divided the subclades up by DF27, L21 and U152? That would be interesting to see. The P312*=372 should mostly be terminal for DF27 since that SNP doesn't show in the list.

Isidro
02-20-2015, 05:29 PM
ArmandoR1b,
I had a glimpse of the study and it mentions "Les Pubilles " tradition, where the female surname prevails over the male.Just amazing how a surname can come from so many different y lines.

I compared myself with the 130 individuals that have P195*, my closest mutation from their menu I think.
In the spoiler my genetic distance using 13 markers I have results for:

13 marker based genetic distance:

1 individual at 8 marker genetic distance out of 13
14 at 7
48 at 6
26 at 5
21 at 4
13 at 3
7 at 2
3808

ArmandoR1b
02-20-2015, 08:05 PM
Isidro, I think you meant Z195* and not P195*

I assume you got the percentages from Supplementary Table 4 (pdf 3,928K)

This what I got from your numbers:

When I combine all of the DF27 subclades together = 651, 42.69% of R1b, 28.19% of all Hgs.

P312*=371, 24.33% of R1b, 16.07% of all Hgs.

P312*+DF27=1022, 67.02% of R1b, 44.26% of all Hgs.

U152=199, 13.05% of R1b, 8.62% of all Hgs.

L21=139, 9.11% of R1b, 6.02% of all Hgs.

All of the P312 subclades (DF27, U152, and L21) and P312* combined = 1360, 89.18% of R1b, 58.90% of all Hgs

Z381 with U106 = 110, 7.21% of R1b, 4.76% of all Hgs


edit: Ignore the attachment. The numbers have been changed slightly due to a correction by Isidro. Use the link instead.

3812



http://i.imgur.com/TKEx2k4.png

I wonder how all of that compares to the study of eastern Spain that Richard Rocca had posted last year.

ADW_1981
02-20-2015, 08:41 PM
Thoughts??

The R1b numbers seem very low in general, but I did notice a large number of the samples come from Corsica and Sardinia which made a little more sense. I expected R1b in Corsica to be higher than 24.1%, but still...

Isidro
02-20-2015, 08:55 PM
ArmandoR1b, thank you for your corrections, your numbers are correct. It is indeed Z195* not P195*.
Looks great by the way.

I realize that is is a very localized Y-DNA study compared to all Western Europe and with added limitations but it helps when trying to see the whole picture.

Krefter
02-20-2015, 09:15 PM
Does FTDNA test for Df27? If so I think I'm P312*(xDf27, U152, L21, Df19). There are two other P312 clades; L238 and Df99. I doubt I have one of them but who knows. There are probably several undiscovered P312 subclades.

Dubhthach
02-20-2015, 09:24 PM
Does FTDNA test for Df27? If so I think I'm P312*(xDf27, U152, L21, Df19). There are two other P312 clades; L238 and Df99. I doubt I have one of them but who knows. There are probably several undiscovered P312 subclades.

Yes you can order DF27, they've also added it to their haplotree page so people who have tested DF27+ are showing up with it as their haplogroup in projects etc.

-Paul

Krefter
02-20-2015, 10:35 PM
Yes you can order DF27, they've also added it to their haplotree page so people who have tested DF27+ are showing up with it as their haplogroup in projects etc.

-Paul

Sorry I wasn't clear. I have a very recent paternal relative on FTDNA's STR test and he is labeled as P312. I wonder if that's because he already took a Y SNP test at FTDNA which found he was P312. I was wondering if there was a standard Y-SNP test at FTDNA which tests for P312 and Df27. Meaning he was only positive for P312, making him and me negative for Df27.

I couldn't find a Y SNP option on FTDNAs website. Would they allow me to only test for P312, Df27, L238, and Df99 for a cheap price?

Isidro
02-20-2015, 10:48 PM
I have revised the original spreadsheet and realized that I did round up and down what added to be substantial % of R1b's. Apologies.Please look my original posting figures. I left the % blank this time.
Isidro, I think you meant Z195* and not P195*

I assume you got the percentages from Supplementary Table 4 (pdf 3,928K)

This what I got from your numbers:

When I combine all of the DF27 subclades together = 656, 42.71% of R1b, 28.42% of all Hgs.

P312*=372, 24.22% of R1b, 16.2% of all Hgs.

P312*+DF27=1028, 66.93% of R1b, 44.54% of all Hgs.

U152=200, 13.02% of R1b, 8.67% of all Hgs.

L21=9.11% of R1b, 6.07% of all Hgs.

All of the P312 subclades (DF27, U152, and L21) and P312* combined = 1368, 89.06% of R1b, 59.27% of all Hgs

Z381 with U106 = 112, 7.29% of R1b, 4.85% of all Hgs


This screenshot might be better.

3812



http://i.imgur.com/0JQIs40.png

I wonder how all of that compares to the study of eastern Spain that Richard Rocca had posted last year.

ArmandoR1b
02-21-2015, 04:40 AM
Sorry I wasn't clear. I have a very recent paternal relative on FTDNA's STR test and he is labeled as P312. I wonder if that's because he already took a Y SNP test at FTDNA which found he was P312. I was wondering if there was a standard Y-SNP test at FTDNA which tests for P312 and Df27. Meaning he was only positive for P312, making him and me negative for Df27.

I couldn't find a Y SNP option on FTDNAs website. Would they allow me to only test for P312, Df27, L238, and Df99 for a cheap price? The only discounts for SNP tests right now are with coupons. Use code 15for15 for a $15 discount. If you are in a project that uses My Groups there are daily coupons posted.
To find DF27 go to https://www.familytreedna.com/my/y-dna-haplotree then search for DF27. Then you can add it.
To see if your relative tested for DF27 go to the SNP page of whichever project he is in. If DF27 doesn't show up he never tested for. FTDNA does not predict DF27 unless you are a close match to someone that has ordered a DF27 test.

Krefter
02-21-2015, 05:43 AM
The only discounts for SNP tests right now are with coupons. Use code 15for15 for a $15 discount. If you are in a project that uses My Groups there are daily coupons posted.
To find DF27 go to https://www.familytreedna.com/my/y-dna-haplotree then search for DF27. Then you can add it.
To see if your relative tested for DF27 go to the SNP page of whichever project he is in. If DF27 doesn't show up he never tested for. FTDNA does not predict DF27 unless you are a close match to someone that has ordered a DF27 test.

Thanks alot!!!!! This is exactly what I was looking for.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-21-2015, 05:43 AM
I am going to be looking to place an order here in the next day or two. AFAIK, I am just positive up to P311. Where do I go for the best y-test out there? Is there a full snp test? Thanks!

Krefter
02-21-2015, 06:02 AM
I'm loading up on codes. Do they ever expire? Looks like i'll be able to test Df27 for free!!!! Thanks ArmandoR1b.

Krefter
02-21-2015, 06:03 AM
I am going to be looking to place an order here in the next day or two. AFAIK, I am just positive up to P311. Where do I go for the best y-test out there? Is there a full snp test? Thanks!

Are you negative for U106 and or P312? You might have one of the "Germanic" P312 clades. I'll give you some of the codes I found. I have about 50$ worth. This reminds me of arcades when I was little.

ArmandoR1b
02-21-2015, 01:34 PM
I am going to be looking to place an order here in the next day or two. AFAIK, I am just positive up to P311. Where do I go for the best y-test out there? Is there a full snp test? Thanks!

The best Y-DNA SNP test is the FullGenomes Elite. They also have a Prime which is comparable to the BigY at FamilyTreeDNA. The FullGenomes and BigY tests are the only NGS (Next Generation Sequencing) tests that look for novel and private SNPs. In order to get the BigY at FTDNA you need to have had at least a 37 marker STR test. You should get that anyway though for STR matching even if you get SNP testing elsewhere. The next best test is BritainsDNA Chromo2 and last is Geno 2.0. The nice thing about the Geno 2.0 test is that you can transfer your Y-DNA SNP results to your FTDNA account if you already have one. If not then you can create a free account.

So if you have enough money for a FullGenomes test get one of them. If not get an FTDNA Y37 test then once you have the option to get a BigY test once you get a coupon. It might be on sale again during an upcoming holiday. If that is still too much get the Chromo2 or Geno 2.0.

Individual testing like Krefter is doing costs more in the long run but you only have to spend a little at a time.

ArmandoR1b
02-21-2015, 02:23 PM
ArmandoR1b, thank you for your corrections, your numbers are correct. It is indeed Z195* not P195*.
Looks great by the way.

I realize that is is a very localized Y-DNA study compared to all Western Europe and with added limitations but it helps when trying to see the whole picture.

I updated the percentages in my post using your new numbers.

It is a localized Y-DNA study but when we use the the Martínez Cruz study and a previous study by Neus Solé-Morata (see subsequent post) it provides a better picture of the north of Spain. I hope they do some more studies on the rest of the peninsula and Europe but they should include DF27. There are a lot of Hispanics that are terminal for DF27 so they are negative for Z195. This will become really apparent when they start to do that and whenever FTDNA releases SNP-packs that Hispanics are willing to pay for.

ArmandoR1b
02-21-2015, 02:25 PM
I found the previous thread that Richard Rocca had made about DF27 in Catalonia, Valencia, and the Balearic Islands (Spain). The study was done by Neus Solé-Morata who is the same author that did the study that Isidro posted. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3100-DF27-in-Catalonia-Valencia-and-the-Balearic-Islands-%28Spain%29


Bernard posted about this paper in the News section, but it is obviously very important for DF27, so I'll re-post it:

Solé-Morata et al (2014) Recent Radiation of R-M269 and High Y-STR Haplotype Resemblance Confirmed (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ahg.12066/abstract)



Supplementary table S2 has...

Z195 = 5.7%
SRY2627 = 9.4%
Z220 = 10%
Z268 = 0.3%
Z278 = 3.7%
M153 = 1.0%
Total DF27 = 30.1% (minimum)

The number could go as high as 46.4% if all of the P312, which is 16.3%, is DF27*. Does anyone know if there is a lot of east coast DF27* in the FTDNA projects?


With the correction made by Isidro P312*+DF27=1022, 67.02% of R1b, 44.26% of all Hgs. So the result is only 2.14% less with or without the P312*. Some parts of the Basque Country are still higher. However, Araba/Alava is at 47.06% when including P312*. Cantabria, Burgos, La Rioja, and North Aragon are between 50% and 70.37%. See post #8.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-21-2015, 05:15 PM
Are you negative for U106 and or P312? You might have one of the "Germanic" P312 clades. I'll give you some of the codes I found. I have about 50$ worth. This reminds me of arcades when I was little.

I am negative for P312 and U106, to the best of my knowledge. My family comes from a place with a lot of L11.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-21-2015, 05:18 PM
Okay. I've ordered the Y37, and I will go from there. I guess that is the cheaper route to confirm that I am just L11, then I'll just order additional SNP's under it, to verify my position. Will that work?

ArmandoR1b
02-21-2015, 06:00 PM
Okay. I've ordered the Y37, and I will go from there. I guess that is the cheaper route to confirm that I am just L11, then I'll just order additional SNP's under it, to verify my position. Will that work?

Yes, if your goal is just to verify that you are L11+ P312- and U106-. If you have a close match at FTDNA based on your STR markers and they have done SNP testing it could help you save money. If you are R1b and P312- U106- then you will want to join the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new You can see a list of the participants at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=yresults

GoldenHind
02-21-2015, 06:05 PM
Okay. I've ordered the Y37, and I will go from there. I guess that is the cheaper route to confirm that I am just L11, then I'll just order additional SNP's under it, to verify my position. Will that work?

I am a little confused when you say you are negative for P312 and U106 to the best of your knowledge. Have you actually been tested for them and received negative results? Otherwise you can't be certain.

If so, I recommend you try DF100, which I believe constitutes the third group under P311. I think there is some discussion of it somewhere on this forum.

Joe B
02-21-2015, 06:08 PM
I am negative for P312 and U106, to the best of my knowledge. My family comes from a place with a lot of L11. Have you actually been tested for P312 and U106? That should be a priority.

Isidro
02-21-2015, 06:23 PM
I've found 10 /P311* results based on the 50 Cognoms Catalans study. 5 different surnames, 17 STR comparison:

3821

Krefter
02-21-2015, 08:09 PM
I am negative for P312 and U106, to the best of my knowledge. My family comes from a place with a lot of L11.

Maybe you should test for Df100 the third clade of L11.

Krefter
02-21-2015, 08:15 PM
Okay. I've ordered the Y37, and I will go from there. I guess that is the cheaper route to confirm that I am just L11, then I'll just order additional SNP's under it, to verify my position. Will that work?

You should check out FTDNA coupons.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=ftdna%20coupons

Krefter
02-21-2015, 08:24 PM
When you order a Y SNP, do you have to do another DNA swab. Or do they use your DNA in one of their labs?

ArmandoR1b
02-21-2015, 08:33 PM
When you order a Y SNP, do you have to do another DNA swab. Or do they use your DNA in one of their labs?

No, you don't have to do another DNA swab. They use the DNA in their lab that you have already provided.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-21-2015, 10:03 PM
23andme had me negative for both p312 and u106, as far as I can tell. Running a 23andme to y snp program, I'm still negative. Just positive up through L11.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-21-2015, 10:04 PM
I've never done an aDNA with ftdna. I did a transfer from 23andme. Will I have to provide a sample?

Piquerobi
02-21-2015, 10:34 PM
I've never done an aDNA with ftdna. I did a transfer from 23andme. Will I have to provide a sample?

^ You should test for DF100+. It is a clade more common in the Germanic speaking parts of Europe, and it is both U106- and P312-.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3465-R1b-CTS4528-amp-DF100

Chad Rohlfsen
02-21-2015, 10:41 PM
^ You should test for DF100+. It is a clade more common in the Germanic speaking parts of Europe, and it is both U106- and P312-.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3465-R1b-CTS4528-amp-DF100


I'll get to that next. Am I going to have to do a sample with them, since I only transferred 23andme data?

Piquerobi
02-21-2015, 10:49 PM
I'll get to that next. Am I going to have to do a sample with them, since I only transferred 23andme data?

Are you referring to FamilyTreeDNA? If so, I guess you could order based on your 23andme data. You should contact them to be sure of that though.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-21-2015, 10:57 PM
Shit. I've already ordered the Y37. I'll call them on Monday, to see what needs to be done. How long does it usually take for them to complete the test?

faulconer
02-21-2015, 10:58 PM
You will have to submit a sample to FTDNA if you wish to test with them. Are you sure you are P312-? Certain versions of 23andme did not cover P312.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-21-2015, 11:15 PM
You will have to submit a sample to FTDNA if you wish to test with them. Are you sure you are P312-? Certain versions of 23andme did not cover P312.

I don't have L21 or U152, I know that. I did my test in the summer of 2013. I'll sort it out with ftdna, on Monday.

faulconer
02-21-2015, 11:28 PM
You were likely tested against 23andme V3 (V4 came out in Dec 2013 ). I don't believe that P312 was covered on V3.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-22-2015, 12:24 AM
Okay, I guess we'll see. I know there are P311's under the Dahl surname group with actual Danish Dahl families. I'm looking forward to the results.

Krefter
02-22-2015, 02:12 AM
No, you don't have to do another DNA swab. They use the DNA in their lab that you have already provided.

Thanks for all the info! You saved me 20$. I have just one more non-vital question because I just ordered Df27. If you have ordered a Y-SNP how long did it take to get a result?

lgmayka
02-22-2015, 02:55 AM
In order to get the BigY at FTDNA you need to have had at least a 37 marker STR test.
This is no longer true. I see project members with only Y-DNA12 whose Upgrade button offers the Big Y.

ArmandoR1b
02-22-2015, 03:00 AM
Okay, I guess we'll see. I know there are P311's under the Dahl surname group with actual Danish Dahl families. I'm looking forward to the results.

So you don't need to cancel the Y37 test after all? The STR marker tests are for finding connections to surnames and it is why I had recommended the Y37. Some people don't care so much about it but it can be helpful and satisfying to see a match to a surname. I have a 111 marker match to a surname and we have 10 generations of documentation. Personally, it makes me feel really good to have that match. To boot, the person is a great guy.

VinceT
02-22-2015, 03:04 AM
S1194 appears to be located immediately upstream of DF100, so you might want to consider that as well, or perhaps prior to ordering DF100.

FTDNA requires a minimum of 12 STRs before you can order single SNPs, which also covers the cost of DNA extraction, purification and storage. The benefit of that is that is that you can join FTDNA-hosted projects such as https://www.familytreedna.com/public/DF100-CTS4528-L11-P310-L151-P311/default.aspx and https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx

A coupon code "15for15" has been available for several weeks, giving $15 off per order. I don't know when it is expected to expire, and it may have already.


There is also YSEQ (recently relocated to Berlin, Germany), which specializes in individualized SNP testing. I expect that they may offer a $25/SNP sale again this coming Father's day. They currently do not offer the test for S1194, but that can be easily rectified once someone sends in a "Wish-an-SNP" request for it.
<link (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=29)>


[edit] 23andme tested for P312 in v2, but not v4. Search for rs34276300 to see if you have results for it. A=positive, C=negative.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-22-2015, 03:06 AM
Yes, I've ordered the Y37. I'll order individual snps next. I wouldn't imagine that I'll need too many after that.

Krefter
02-22-2015, 03:07 AM
Yes, I've ordered the Y37. I'll order individual snps next. I wouldn't imagine that I'll need too many after that.

Did you use a coupon? I found a $20 one.

ArmandoR1b
02-22-2015, 03:08 AM
I don't have L21 or U152, I know that. I did my test in the summer of 2013. I'll sort it out with ftdna, on Monday.

You can see what 23andme and tests for by going to the mutation mapper https://www.23andme.com/you/labs/haplogroup_tree_mut_mapper/

I'm posting all of the haplogroups so everyone can see them.

R1b1b2 R1b-M269
R1b1b2a R1b-L23
R1b1b2a1 R1b-L51
R1b1b2a1a rs13304168 L11/S127, L52, L151, P310/S129, P311/S128 ISOGG 2015 R1b1a2a1a
R1b1b2a1a1 rs16981293 (M405/S21/U106) R1b-U106
R1b1b2a1a1a rs17222279 (M467/S29/U198) descends from R1b-U106
R1b1b2a1a1d rs13303755 (L48) descends from R1b-U106
R1b1b2a1a1d1 rs34283263 (L47) descends from R1b-U106
R1b1b2a1a2b i3000029 M153 descendent of DF27
R1b1b2a1a2c i3000043 M167/SRY2627 descendant of DF27
R1b1b2a1a2f rs11799226 (L21) R1b-L21 descendant of P312
R1b1b2a1a2f2 rs20321 R1b-M222 descendant of R1b-L21
R1b1b2a1a2d rs1236440 (S28) R1b-U152 descendant of P312
R1b1b2a1a2d3* rs2566671 R1b-L2 descends from R1b-U152
R1b1b2a1a2d3a rs7067305 R1b-L20 descends from R1b-L2

Some of the variants will be blue and you can click on them to see if you are ancestral (negative) or derived (positive)

Here is the SNP variant for U106 https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs16981293

ArmandoR1b
02-22-2015, 03:10 AM
Thanks for all the info! You saved me 20$. I have just one more non-vital question because I just ordered Df27. If you have ordered a Y-SNP how long did it take to get a result?

About 2 months. Sometimes less. IIRC, batches start on Wednesdays.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-22-2015, 03:13 AM
You can see what 23andme and tests for by going to the mutation mapper https://www.23andme.com/you/labs/haplogroup_tree_mut_mapper/

I'm posting all of the haplogroups so everyone can see them.

R1b1b2 R1b-M269
R1b1b2a R1b-L23
R1b1b2a1 R1b-L51
R1b1b2a1a rs13304168 L11/S127, L52, L151, P310/S129, P311/S128 ISOGG 2015 R1b1a2a1a
R1b1b2a1a1 rs16981293 (M405/S21/U106) R1b-U106
R1b1b2a1a1a rs17222279 (M467/S29/U198) descends from R1b-U106
R1b1b2a1a1d rs13303755 (L48) descends from R1b-U106
R1b1b2a1a1d1 rs34283263 (L47) descends from R1b-U106
R1b1b2a1a2b i3000029 M153 descendent of DF27
R1b1b2a1a2c i3000043 M167/SRY2627 descendant of DF27
R1b1b2a1a2f rs11799226 (L21) R1b-L21 descendant of P312
R1b1b2a1a2f2 rs20321 R1b-M222 descendant of R1b-L21
R1b1b2a1a2d rs1236440 (S28) R1b-U152 descendant of P312
R1b1b2a1a2d3* rs2566671 R1b-L2 descends from R1b-U152
R1b1b2a1a2d3a rs7067305 R1b-L20 descends from R1b-L2

Some of the variants will be blue and you can click on them to see if you are ancestral (negative) or derived (positive)

Here is the SNP variant for U106 https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs16981293

I'm negative for U106, L21, and U152. I do remember that. I can look at DF27, but considering where my family is from, I find something around P311 more likely.

ArmandoR1b
02-22-2015, 03:15 AM
You were likely tested against 23andme V3 (V4 came out in Dec 2013 ). I don't believe that P312 was covered on V3.

I don't think any of the 23andme versions tested P312.


[edit] Oh, good point, 23andme v3 didn't test for P312 or DF27. Those would probably take precedence.

DF27 was never tested by 23andme in any of the versions.

faulconer
02-22-2015, 03:32 AM
They did. I have A @ rs34276300 on 23andme

Chad Rohlfsen
02-22-2015, 03:49 AM
Negative for M153 and M167.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-22-2015, 03:54 AM
I'm only derived here..

rs13304168 L11/S127, L52, L151, P310/S129, P311/S128

ArmandoR1b
02-22-2015, 03:58 AM
This is no longer true. I see project members with only Y-DNA12 whose Upgrade button offers the Big Y.
Thank you for that info. That was a good idea for them to do that. In December I didn't see that option for those people.

Krefter
02-22-2015, 04:06 AM
Chad you're in the same predicament I was in. In all likeliness you have P312, and maybe one of the 3 northern P312 clades or Df27(which is very widespread). If you don't have one of them there's also Df100 which exists where your line is from.

I hope I'm negative for Df27. I know I'm negative for the 2 clades that take up about 50% of Df27 in Iberia. I don't know if there are other P312* and L11*s at FTDNA but there probably are. If so I hope there's a group which looks for new L11 and P312 subclades.

VinceT
02-22-2015, 07:52 AM
I don't know if there are other P312* and L11*s at FTDNA but there probably are. If so I hope there's a group which looks for new L11 and P312 subclades.

There are! Possible relevant projects depending on your particular situation:
R1b1a2 (M269+ P312-, U106-): https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx
R1b-DF100, CTS4528: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/DF100-CTS4528-L11-P310-L151-P311/default.aspx
R1b-P312, P312*, and Subclades of DF99, L238, DF19: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/default.aspx
R1b-DF27 and Subclades: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27/default.aspx

lgmayka
02-22-2015, 10:57 AM
I can look at DF27, but considering where my family is from, I find something around P311 more likely.
DF27+ Z196- is found as far east as Kyiv (Kiev). Kit 153495 has ordered the Big Y.

ArmandoR1b
02-22-2015, 12:59 PM
They did. I have A @ rs34276300 on 23andme

It's extremely unfortunate they didn't include it on v3 and v4. There are a lot of people they did a disservice to by not including it on those.

ArmandoR1b
02-22-2015, 01:17 PM
I hope I'm negative for DF27. I know I'm negative for the 2 clades that take up about 50% of DF27 in Iberia. I don't know if there are other P312* and L11*s at FTDNA but there probably are. If so I hope there's a group which looks for new L11 and P312 subclades.

Based on what I pulled from YFull today only 2 out of 80 people, 2.5%, with ancestry from Hispanic countries and Iberia are positive for P312 but negative for DF27, U152, and L21. One of those is positive for DF99. HG02008 from Peru.

Which two clades are the ones that take up 50% of DF27 in Iberia? I think you meant to write 2 clades that take up about 50% of P312 in Iberia. I haven't seen any stats on the percentages of subclades of DF27 in any study but using the data from YFull Z195 by itself takes up 48.72% of DF27 in Hispanics. The other 51.18% is taken up by various SNPs.

12.82% are showing to be terminal for DF27. Meaning they are positive for DF27 but negative for downstream markers.

GoldenHind
02-22-2015, 07:03 PM
I'm negative for U106, L21, and U152. I do remember that. I can look at DF27, but considering where my family is from, I find something around P311 more likely.

I have no idea where your family is from, but I am reasonably certain the combined total of P312 Subclades DF19, DF99 and L238 is more numerous than P311* or DF100 in Scandinavia, England, the Low Countries and Germany/Austria/Switzerland. In other words, if your ancestry is from one of those areas, I think you are more likely to be P312+ than P312- or DF100.

jeanL
02-22-2015, 10:00 PM
I should add that I was on the same situation, per 23andme I was R1b1b2a1a, that is R1b-L11(xU106), and I was negative for R1b-L21, R1b-U152, R1b-M153 and R1b-M167, and also R1b-M65. Then I tested with Thomas Krahn company(I forgot the name) and I turned out to be R1b-P312 and R1b-DF27, I have done any more testing but I imagine testing for R1b-Z195 would be the next step.

ArmandoR1b
02-23-2015, 12:47 AM
I should add that I was on the same situation, per 23andme I was R1b1b2a1a, that is R1b-L11(xU106), and I was negative for R1b-L21, R1b-U152, R1b-M153 and R1b-M167, and also R1b-M65. Then I tested with Thomas Krahn company(I forgot the name) and I turned out to be R1b-P312 and R1b-DF27, I have done any more testing but I imagine testing for R1b-Z195 would be the next step.

Yes, Z195 is definitely the next SNP that you should order a test for.

Krefter
02-23-2015, 02:20 AM
Based on what I pulled from YFull today only 2 out of 80 people, 2.5%, with ancestry from Hispanic countries and Iberia are positive for P312 but negative for DF27, U152, and L21. One of those is positive for DF99. HG02008 from Peru.

Which two clades are the ones that take up 50% of DF27 in Iberia? I think you meant to write 2 clades that take up about 50% of P312 in Iberia. I haven't seen any stats on the percentages of subclades of DF27 in any study but using the data from YFull Z195 by itself takes up 48.72% of DF27 in Hispanics. The other 51.18% is taken up by various SNPs.

12.82% are showing to be terminal for DF27. Meaning they are positive for DF27 but negative for downstream markers.

I'm talking about M167 and M153. According to a new study from Spain and Eupedia's Df27 map they should take up about 50% of Df27 in most of Spain.

ArmandoR1b
02-23-2015, 03:05 AM
I'm talking about M167 and M153. According to a new study from Spain and Eupedia's Df27 map they should take up about 50% of Df27 in most of Spain.

M167/SRY2627 and M153 are only a portion of Z195. You really need to get acquainted with the SNP tree and stop relying on Eupedia. Maciamo used data from studies and most of the studies did not test DF27 and Z195.

The following SNP tree by Mike W. an admin of the DF27 project should help you out.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-DF27_Descendency_Tree.jpg


Once you are familiar with that then you can use the data from the YFull DF27 Tree. http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a2a/ By the way the F in DF27 is supposed to be capitalized.

ArmandoR1b
02-23-2015, 03:19 AM
Only 5 of 78 Hispanics, 8.97%, that are DF27 are M153.
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M153/

6 of 78 Hispanics, 7.69%, that are DF27 are M167/SRY2627
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z262/

That's a total of 14.1% of DF27. That's no where close to 50% of DF27.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-23-2015, 03:58 AM
My male side is from East-Central Denmark. Isn't that an L11 hotspot, or has that changed?

Krefter
02-23-2015, 04:01 AM
Only 5 of 78 Hispanics, 8.97%, that are DF27 are M153.
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M153/

6 of 78 Hispanics, 7.69%, that are DF27 are M167/SRY2627
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z262/

That's a total of 14.1% of DF27. That's no where close to 50% of DF27.

I'm going off a recent study and Eupedia's map, which have legitimacy. I spoke too soon, but it that doesn't invalidate my the sources I do have. I score 1% North African in 23andme and full-blooded Puerto Ricans usually score 3-5%. I haven't seen Spanish results, but maybe this means Puerto Ricans and other Latinos come mostly from southern Spain where other DF27 is prevalent.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-23-2015, 06:16 AM
New work on the mutation rate, for those interested.

Calibrating the Human Mutation Rate via Ancestral Recombination Density in Diploid Genomes
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/20/015560

ArmandoR1b
02-23-2015, 07:02 AM
I'm going off a recent study and Eupedia's map, which have legitimacy. I spoke too soon, but it that doesn't invalidate my the sources I do have. I score 1% North African in 23andme and full-blooded Puerto Ricans usually score 3-5%. I haven't seen Spanish results, but maybe this means Puerto Ricans and other Latinos come mostly from southern Spain where other DF27 is prevalent.

The only study that I have seen test for DF27 is Rocca et al http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041634. What is the name of the study you are referring to? Who is the author? I don't see anything recent at Eupedia. I have extreme doubts that study tested for DF27. Maciamo doesn't cite his references so he can take liberty in putting info as he sees fit without taking into consideration the reality of the situation. Until that study is provided your source is invalidated and Eupedia's map does not have legitimacy.

There is no way to know which parts of Spain and Latin America have which subclade of DF27 until large studies of DF27 and the subclades are published. A majority of Latin Americans descend from Spaniards from southern Spain but there is still a significant percent that are from northern Spain. I have a lot of distant relatives from my paternal line in Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic as well as many other Latin Americans countries. Other distant relatives through ancestors from northern Spain went to Cuba. As time goes on and people become more educated about DF27 and its subclades then more people will test for them. Until then YFull is all we have for percentages of DF27 and it's subclades in Latin American and Iberia.

GoldenHind
02-23-2015, 08:12 PM
My male side is from East-Central Denmark. Isn't that an L11 hotspot, or has that changed?

Hotspots are of course relative. It has been some years since I made an analysis of the available data on R1b in Scandinavia, but my recollection is that the only area where L11* was noticeably high was Bornholm. I was more interested in Scandinavia as a whole than in individual areas. I did find my notes on the the combined Myres data from Denmark. The total sample was 110, and the R1b-M269 portion was 40 or 60%. Of the 40, 2 were L11*, and 6 were P312(XL21,U152). Across the Øresund, there was a sampling by Busby of 139 from the Malmø area. 29, or 21% were R1b-M269. Of these only one was L11*, while three were P312(XL21,U152). Unfortunately the P312 samples were only analyzed for L21, U152 and M222, so we don't know the proportions of the other P312 subclades.
Finally Maciamo did a study a little over a year ago of R1b in the FTDNA Scandinavia and Denmark projects a couple of years ago. While I don't suggest this is necessarily reliable, the results were similar. Out of 111 whose subclade he was able to determine, 3 were L11*. 13 were P312* (presumably this is DF19 and DF99), 6 were L238, and 4 were DF27.
So while L11* is clearly present in Scandinavia, it appears to be considerably less numerous than P312(XL21,U152) there.

EDIT: I finally located the Myres data for what presumably is Bornholm. The sample was very small, only ten, but the only R1b among the ten was L11*.

Krefter
02-23-2015, 09:42 PM
The only study that I have seen test for DF27 is Rocca et al http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041634. What is the name of the study you are referring to? Who is the author? I don't see anything recent at Eupedia. I have extreme doubts that study tested for DF27. Maciamo doesn't cite his references so he can take liberty in putting info as he sees fit without taking into consideration the reality of the situation. Until that study is provided your source is invalidated and Eupedia's map does not have legitimacy.

There is no way to know which parts of Spain and Latin America have which subclade of DF27 until large studies of DF27 and the subclades are published. A majority of Latin Americans descend from Spaniards from southern Spain but there is still a significant percent that are from northern Spain. I have a lot of distant relatives from my paternal line in Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic as well as many other Latin Americans countries. Other distant relatives through ancestors from northern Spain went to Cuba. As time goes on and people become more educated about DF27 and its subclades then more people will test for them. Until then YFull is all we have for percentages of DF27 and it's subclades in Latin American and Iberia.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201514a.html

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30910-New-big-paper-on-Catalan-Y-DNA?p=450604#post450604

I made the assumption around 60% of Spaniards have Df27.

ArmandoR1b
02-23-2015, 11:41 PM
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201514a.html

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30910-New-big-paper-on-Catalan-Y-DNA?p=450604#post450604

I made the assumption around 60% of Spaniards have Df27.

Thanks for providing the source Krefter. I wish we knew what the actual percentage of DF27 is in all of Spain and in each province. That Catalan study was actually mentioned in this thread by Isidro in post #9. Catalonia is a portion of northern Spain, not all of Spain, and as you can see DF27 was not tested in that study. Additionally, I used the numbers that Isidro provided and I calculated percentages of subclades in post #12 but not of M167/SRY2627 and M153. I'll go ahead and do that.

Z278*, Z268, Z220*, SRY2627, and M153 are subclades of Z195. Counting all of those plus Z195* provides all of the Z195 subclades which come out to 651. Since DF27 wasn't tested but P312 was then we can assume almost all of P312* is DF27 which is 371 so the total DF27 is P312*+Z195 and all of it subclades = 371+651=1022, 67.02% of R1b, 44.26% of all Hgs.

SRY2627 and M153 add up to 243 so that's 23.77% of DF27 or P312*+Z195 which higher than what I got from YFull but not by a huge amount.

That means you still don't know if you are positive for about 76% of the DF27 subclades.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-24-2015, 01:38 AM
My kit has been mailed. They said I'll have it in 1-3 days. How long will it take for results? 6-8 weeks?

ArmandoR1b
02-24-2015, 06:54 AM
My kit has been mailed. They said I'll have it in 1-3 days. How long will it take for results? 6-8 weeks?

Yes, 6-8 weeks as long as they aren't backed up and they get a successful test during the first attempt. They do the testing in panels. PANEL 1 (1-12), PANEL 2 (13-25), PANEL 3 (26-37). The first 12 provide a haplogroup prediction and you can see matches but most aren't genealogically relevant. It's only at 37 markers and above that matching can be genealogically relevant. Sometimes it takes a 111 marker test to prove people are closely related.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-24-2015, 06:57 AM
Okay. Do I get results as each panel completes? 6-8 weeks for the first panel?

ArmandoR1b
02-24-2015, 04:30 PM
It depends. Sometimes all of the panels come in within 3 days of each other.

Krefter
02-24-2015, 09:57 PM
FTDNA is much slower than 23andme. I got my raw data in 2-3 weeks at 23andme, which was all I needed for GEDmatch, Y DNA analysis, and mtDNA analysis.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-26-2015, 06:56 PM
Where does straight P312* have the highest frequency? Does anyone have a list?

alan
02-26-2015, 11:53 PM
Where does straight P312* have the highest frequency? Does anyone have a list?

Dont think there is really such a thing. They used to say p312 as a whole was highest in western Alps or south Germany. However pooled p 312 is not reliable way to infer much. Better IMO to look at the sequence of shedding branches and their geography. Even then modern distribution is so different to 5000 years ago its of limited use. IMO to explain L11 and its split it makes !most sense if L11 split quite far east around NW black sea

GoldenHind
02-27-2015, 12:23 AM
Where does straight P312* have the highest frequency? Does anyone have a list?

That depends entirely on what you mean by P312*. The term can be used to signify different things. For instance, in studies where samples are analyzed for P312, L21 and U152, it merely means those who are P312+ but negative for L21 and U152.

There are only a very few people in the FTDNA R1b-P312 and Subclades Project who are currently classified as P312**. By that I mean those who have tested P312+ and negative for all six currently identified P312 subclades of L21, U152, DF27, DF19, DF99 and L238. Almost all of them are British, but I would put that down to the enormous over weighting of samples from the British Isles in the FTDNA database. I have no doubt they are not actually P312**. This classification only means their subclade has yet to be identified. SNPs are thought to occur at least every century or so, so it is extremely unlikely this group has gone thousands of years without any.

ArmandoR1b
02-27-2015, 01:52 AM
Chad,

I agree with GoldenHind. Just to add to his post, YFull shows kits that are terminal P312, without any currently known downstream SNPs, to be from all over Europe. Puerto Rico (most likely from Spain), Tuscany, Great Britain, Scotland, and Italy. http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/

lgmayka
02-27-2015, 01:58 AM
YFull shows kits that are terminal P312, without any currently known downstream SNPs, to be from all over Europe. Puerto Rico (most likely from Spain), Tuscany, Great Britain, Scotland, and Italy.
Not exactly. YFull does not show any entries under P312* . Rather, 17 entries are merely under P312 (no asterisk). I think this means that one or more of the subclades was not tested and thus cannot be ruled out.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-27-2015, 02:18 AM
Interesting. Do you find it more plausible that L11 split in say Cotafeni, or in some Danubian chalcolithic group, or related stuff like Remedello?

ArmandoR1b
02-27-2015, 03:14 AM
Not exactly. YFull does not show any entries under P312* . Rather, 17 entries are merely under P312 (no asterisk). I think this means that one or more of the subclades was not tested and thus cannot be ruled out.

It is possible that the BigY test didn't provide a result for some of the downstream SNPs. I'm not sure about the Puerto Rican HG01082 kit though. I assume that it's an HGDP kit.

Chad Rohlfsen
03-09-2015, 11:16 PM
Okay. FTDNA received my sample today. Now the 6-8 week waiting game, correct?

CelticGerman
03-09-2015, 11:29 PM
Okay. FTDNA received my sample today. Now the 6-8 week waiting game, correct?

Patience is needed. Things are going very very very slowly with FTDNA. 6-8 weeks could be everything, 3 months, 4 months .......

ArmandoR1b
03-10-2015, 05:38 PM
Patience is needed. Things are going very very very slowly with FTDNA. 6-8 weeks could be everything, 3 months, 4 months .......

Not anymore which is what I had been expecting to happen soon. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3485-Log-Jam-at-FTDNA-Lab&p=73616&viewfull=1#post73616

Krefter
03-10-2015, 08:52 PM
I'm Df27+. I've got a bunch of coupons to find my subclade.

jeanL
03-10-2015, 10:20 PM
I'm Df27+. I've got a bunch of coupons to find my subclade.

Welcome to our clade!!! Do you have any ideas where in Iberia your paternal lineage comes from? Let me know if you can share some of those coupons I wouldn't mind testing for R1b-Z195 or R1b-Z196 whichever one they have.

GoldenHind
03-10-2015, 10:58 PM
Welcome to our clade!!! Do you have any ideas where in Iberia your paternal lineage comes from? Let me know if you can share some of those coupons I wouldn't mind testing for R1b-Z195 or R1b-Z196 whichever one they have.

FTDNA tests for both. Although they are different SNPs, they are currently thought to have an equivalent position. In other words, so far everyone is either positive for both or negative for both. If I had to choose between them, I would opt for Z196.

ArmandoR1b
03-10-2015, 11:07 PM
I'm Df27+. I've got a bunch of coupons to find my subclade.

You already have a result?

ArmandoR1b
03-10-2015, 11:11 PM
By the way, if the FTDNA coupons don't work Yseq.net has a sale on SNP tests for $17.50

Krefter
03-11-2015, 01:50 AM
Welcome to our clade!!! Do you have any ideas where in Iberia your paternal lineage comes from? Let me know if you can share some of those coupons I wouldn't mind testing for R1b-Z195 or R1b-Z196 whichever one they have.

Yes, I'm excited to be apart of DF27 and am now more anxious about new research on it. I have no idea where in Iberia my lineage is from. My guess is southern Spain because me and my Dad score pretty high in east Med components and score 1% north African in 23andme.

Here are coupons i collected a few week (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1N3bVNcdhyUrAV1zoPDa2Kekmmxg0_r9UlTmaeAk_IJM/edit)s ago. Now I can test DF27 basal clades for around 19$ each over the next several months. You can just google FTDNA coupons and you'll find all the new and outdated coupons you could want.

Krefter
03-11-2015, 01:52 AM
By the way, if the FTDNA coupons don't work Yseq.net has a sale on SNP tests for $17.50

Is it usually faster tan FTDNA. FTDNA apparently is going real fast right now but I'm afraid tat won't last forever.

ADW_1981
03-11-2015, 01:55 AM
Is it usually faster tan FTDNA. FTDNA apparently is going real fast right now but I'm afraid tat won't last forever.

If you had your haplotype, you could maybe predict a Z220 outcome or not. I'm still waiting on my father's kit Z295 which has been sitting on 1-2 weeks for the last 4 weeks.

Krefter
03-11-2015, 01:56 AM
If you had your haplotype, you could maybe predict a Z220 outcome or not.

I have a 67-STR haplotype if that's what you mean.

ADW_1981
03-11-2015, 02:01 AM
I have a 67-STR haplotype if that's what you mean.

Does it have the N-S indicators?

jeanL
03-11-2015, 02:09 AM
I just ordered R1b-Z196 from Yseq, they already have my sample so I hope it doesn't take long.

ArmandoR1b
03-11-2015, 02:25 AM
Is it usually faster tan FTDNA. FTDNA apparently is going real fast right now but I'm afraid tat won't last forever.

Yes, I know that they are usually faster. I have tested with both companies. However, I have one test at Yseq that I am still waiting on the results for since December because the test keeps failing. I have also seen a lot of people that have ordered at FTDNA and had results in quickly. It was only last year that the backlog got to be big at FTDNA and this year I started seeing the results come back in quicker for a lot of people.

Your DF27+ result was expected since you were P312 xL21,U152 and your paternal line is Hispanic. The only ones that I have seen that aren't DF27 are the ones found at YFull that I posted about in post #65.

Did you join the DF27 project at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-df27/about/background ?

ArmandoR1b
03-11-2015, 02:33 AM
I just ordered R1b-Z196 from Yseq, they already have my sample so I hope it doesn't take long.

Most of the time you get the results in less than two weeks.

Webb
03-11-2015, 02:45 AM
dys437 = 14
dys448 = 18
Y-GATA H4 = 10

These are the indicators of the North/South cluster. Testing for this cluster starts out with Z220 and ends with M153. There are numerous snps in between the two.

jeanL
03-11-2015, 03:17 AM
Say I turned out positive for R1b-Z196 what would be the next step? My paternal lineage is deeply rooted in the Basque Country dating back to at least the 1400s(As far as historical records go!)

Webb
03-11-2015, 11:23 AM
Say I turned out positive for R1b-Z196 what would be the next step? My paternal lineage is deeply rooted in the Basque Country dating back to at least the 1400s(As far as historical records go!)

SRY2627 would be a possibility. It is pretty common in the Pyrenees. Since you are negative for M153, you could test just upstream. This would be Z214. It is mostly people with Spanish ancestry. Higher than that and the people are mostly non-Iberian. Have you tested DF81? This group is Z196/Z195-, however they are all basque.

ArmandoR1b
03-11-2015, 01:55 PM
Say I turned out positive for R1b-Z196 what would be the next step? My paternal lineage is deeply rooted in the Basque Country dating back to at least the 1400s(As far as historical records go!)


SRY2627 would be a possibility. It is pretty common in the Pyrenees. Since you are negative for M153, you could test just upstream. This would be Z214. It is mostly people with Spanish ancestry. Higher than that and the people are mostly non-Iberian. Have you tested DF81? This group is Z196/Z195-, however they are all basque.


jeanL is negative for M167 which is the same as SRY2627. http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html

Higher than Z214 only looks to be mostly non-Iberian because of a low percentage of Iberian testees which is rather frustrating. The percentage of Hispanics (Iberians and Latin Americans) that are between Z295 and Z214 at YFull is actually pretty high in comparison to non-Hispanics. I also know there is a relatively large percentage of Hispanics that aren't in the YFull tree that are terminal for DF27 which is obviously above Z214.

If all of the P312 in the Martínez Cruz study is DF27, which there is at least a 97.5% that's the case, and P312, SRY2627, and M153 are added up for a total of DF27 then SRY2627 is divided the total DF27 I get the following percentages on the Spanish side.

SRY2627 is highest in La Rioja (28.57%) and North Aragon (26.32%). The highest in País Vasco is 16.67% in Araba/Álava.

If I do the same calculation for M153 it is highest in La Rioja (28.57%) and Central/Western Navarre (24.39%) In the Basque speaking territories it is highest in North/Western Navarre (23.53%) but Western Bizkaia and Burgos aren't far behind. Western Bizkaia is part of País Vasco but doesn't have as many speakers of the Basque language. The study has this to say about the North Argagon (NAR) and Western Bizkaia (BOC)

"the Spanish NAR and BOC populations cluster together
with the Basques, suggesting a similar haplogroup distribution
in samples of the western Pyrenees"

So if trying to determine which SNP a person with ancestry from the Basque country is likely to be positive for North Argagon (NAR) and Western Bizkaia (BOC) should also be taken into consideration.

Regardless, there isn't a specific branch that a person with ancestry from any of the specific provincias of País Vasco has an extreme likelihood of being positive for. Since jeanL has ancestry from Araba/Álava there is a higher chance that he is positive for the line leading to SRY2627 as opposed to the line leading to M153. 16.67% vs 8.33%. However, if would have used those percentages for the location of my most distant ancestors back to 1500 I would have been on the wrong path.

Basically, for jeanL it is a roll of the dice unless he has DYS437=14, DYS448=18 and GATAH4=10. If he isn't part of the Z220 North/South cluster he could be anywhere on the tree between Z195 and either the M153 branch or the M167/SRY2627 branch or even just DF81. So he could test for the following one at a time for both - Z295 and Z198. They are both available at Yseq.

Here is a diagram that Mike W. made that simplifies the tree -

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-DF27_Descendency_Tree.jpg

Webb
03-11-2015, 06:05 PM
jeanL is negative for M167 which is the same as SRY2627. http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html

Higher than Z214 only looks to be mostly non-Iberian because of a low percentage of Iberian testees which is rather frustrating. The percentage of Hispanics (Iberians and Latin Americans) that are between Z295 and Z214 at YFull is actually pretty high in comparison to non-Hispanics. I also know there is a relatively large percentage of Hispanics that aren't in the YFull tree that are terminal for DF27 which is obviously above Z214.

If all of the P312 in the Martínez Cruz study is DF27, which there is at least a 97.5% that's the case, and P312, SRY2627, and M153 are added up for a total of DF27 then SRY2627 is divided the total DF27 I get the following percentages on the Spanish side.

SRY2627 is highest in La Rioja (28.57%) and North Aragon (26.32%). The highest in País Vasco is 16.67% in Araba/Álava.

If I do the same calculation for M153 it is highest in La Rioja (28.57%) and Central/Western Navarre (24.39%) In the Basque speaking territories it is highest in North/Western Navarre (23.53%) but Western Bizkaia and Burgos aren't far behind. Western Bizkaia is part of País Vasco but doesn't have as many speakers of the Basque language. The study has this to say about the North Argagon (NAR) and Western Bizkaia (BOC)

"the Spanish NAR and BOC populations cluster together
with the Basques, suggesting a similar haplogroup distribution
in samples of the western Pyrenees"

So if trying to determine which SNP a person with ancestry from the Basque country is likely to be positive for North Argagon (NAR) and Western Bizkaia (BOC) should also be taken into consideration.

Regardless, there isn't a specific branch that a person with ancestry from any of the specific provincias of País Vasco has an extreme likelihood of being positive for. Since jeanL has ancestry from Araba/Álava there is a higher chance that he is positive for the line leading to SRY2627 as opposed to the line leading to M153. 16.67% vs 8.33%. However, if would have used those percentages for the location of my most distant ancestors back to 1500 I would have been on the wrong path.

Basically, for jeanL it is a roll of the dice unless he has DYS437=14, DYS448=18 and GATAH4=10. If he isn't part of the Z220 North/South cluster he could be anywhere on the tree between Z195 and either the M153 branch or the M167/SRY2627 branch or even just DF81. So he could test for the following one at a time for all three - Z295, Z198, and DF81. They are all available at Yseq.

Here is a diagram that Mike W. made that simplifies the tree -

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-DF27_Descendency_Tree.jpg

Good catch with the M167. However, I am having a hard time following your logic, which is not just you, it happens to be a lot of people. There are 192 people in the North/South cluster from Z209 down through M153. 36 list an origin of Spain and or Latin America. That is 18.75% of the North/South cluster list Spain or Latin America. 25 of these kits are from Z278 down through M153. So to say that above Z214 looks non-Iberian because of low Iberian testers does not make sense when you can say that clearly from Z214 down to M153 is almost exclusively Iberian.

jeanL
03-11-2015, 07:34 PM
Regardless, there isn't a specific branch that a person with ancestry from any of the specific provincias of País Vasco has an extreme likelihood of being positive for. Since jeanL has ancestry from Araba/Álava there is a higher chance that he is positive for the line leading to SRY2627 as opposed to the line leading to M153. 16.67% vs 8.33%. However, if would have used those percentages for the location of my most distant ancestors back to 1500 I would have been on the wrong path.


My ancestry is not from Alava/Araba is from Eastern Vizcaya in the border with Guipuzcoa. Anyways now that you mentioned DF81, which would be my next target if I turned out negative for Z196. Anyways, does anybody know the relation(if there is any) between R1b-M65 and R1b-DF81, is R1b-M65 below R1b-DF27? It has been found at very minor frequencies in Basques, but not much is known about it.

Webb
03-11-2015, 07:59 PM
My ancestry is not from Alava/Araba is from Eastern Vizcaya in the border with Guipuzcoa. Anyways now that you mentioned DF81, which would be my next target if I turned out negative for Z196. Anyways, does anybody know the relation(if there is any) between R1b-M65 and R1b-DF81, is R1b-M65 below R1b-DF27? It has been found at very minor frequencies in Basques, but not much is known about it.

This is what I found on ISOGG:
"M65 is located downstream of R-P312/S116. The position of private SNP M65 is uncertain with respect to the positions of Z196, L238/S182, DF19 and DF27. Listed 26 June 2012"

It was found among two unrelated Basque samples.

ArmandoR1b
03-11-2015, 08:08 PM
Good catch with the M167. However, I am having a hard time following your logic, which is not just you, it happens to be a lot of people. There are 192 people in the North/South cluster from Z209 down through M153. 36 list an origin of Spain and or Latin America. That is 18.75% of the North/South cluster list Spain or Latin America. 25 of these kits are from Z278 down through M153. So to say that above Z214 looks non-Iberian because of low Iberian testers does not make sense when you can say that clearly from Z214 down to M153 is almost exclusively Iberian.

First of all, when you don't have a large amount of samples from a specific region you can have a lot of people that by chance cluster into one group which is what you are looking at. The main reason you see 192 people in the North/South cluster is because the extremely large number of participants that are not Hispanic. If you were to count the number of distinct non-Hispanic participants out of all of the FTDNA projects and the number of distinct Hispanic participants in all of the FTDNA projects you will likely see a ratio of at least 10:1 and I wouldn't be surprised if it were a lot higher than that. If the ratio were closer to 2:1 then the North/South cluster wouldn't be so skewed between Hispanics and non-Hispanics. That should be especially evident with M153 having been identified as a Basque marker many years ago. It's not like there weren't already people in the Basque region with upstream markers when it first appeared there. I hope you don't really think that Z278 through M153 people decided to just pop-in all of the sudden. All of the data that we have so far from Iberia proves otherwise. Like I said before there are relatively a lot of Hispanics that are terminal for DF27. The reason is obviously because either a very large percentage of DF27 people settled the Pyrenees. That included people with SNPs between Z195 and Z278. It is also the reason why DF81 has shown up in the Basque people.

Your original statement was -


Since you are negative for M153, you could test just upstream. This would be Z214. It is mostly people with Spanish ancestry. Higher than that and the people are mostly non-Iberian.

That means you included Z278 as mostly non-Iberian. Using the DF27 project results 8 out of 25 are Hispanic and 17 out of 25 are non-Hispanic. If 10x the number of Hispanics were to get Y-DNA tests then the percentage of Hispanics compared to non-Hispanics wouldn't be as lopsided as it is in the FTDNA project.

YFull which is using HGDP and 1k Genomes data, and the FTDNA project doesn't, has the following under Z220 -

3 Hispanics and 1 non-Hispanics between Z216 * Z270/PF7598 and Z214. The single non-Hispanic individual that is Z216+ Z278- is likely due to a sampling issue also.

4 Hispanics under Z220>CTS9050 and there aren't any non-Hispanics.

A "sibling" or "cousin" of Z220 is DF17. 3 out of 5 are Hispanic.

The only subclades that don't have Hispanics are -

Z2355/CTS4065/S1221 * S25783 * CTS3702/S1220 which is the subclade that causes you to think that above Z278 it is mostly non-Hispanic. This is a branch off of Z220 which does not affect people downstream of Z220 which can be seen with the data from above.

Y10801 * Y9088 * Y9087 which only has 2 people

The totality of the evidence proves that a higher sampling of Hispanics would show that Hispanics aren't a minority between Z195 and M153 except in two branches that don't affect the upstream SNPs. Your confusion seems to be with distinguishing branching SNPs and upstream SNPs.

More importantly, there are definitely Hispanics that are terminal for SNPs between Z195/Z196 and Z214 which means Hispanics should test SNPs upstream from Z214.

ArmandoR1b
03-11-2015, 08:16 PM
My ancestry is not from Alava/Araba is from Eastern Vizcaya in the border with Guipuzcoa.

I apologize. My memory failed me. However, that doesn't change my conclusion. You can easily be Z295 or Z198. They are different branches under DF27 and you can only be positive for one of them. You do not have an extremely higher chance for being positive either of them.

Webb
03-11-2015, 08:19 PM
My ancestry is not from Alava/Araba is from Eastern Vizcaya in the border with Guipuzcoa. Anyways now that you mentioned DF81, which would be my next target if I turned out negative for Z196. Anyways, does anybody know the relation(if there is any) between R1b-M65 and R1b-DF81, is R1b-M65 below R1b-DF27? It has been found at very minor frequencies in Basques, but not much is known about it.

jeanL, please consult with Yfull's experemental tree. There are four new defining snp's below DF27 that seem to have a high rate of Iberian. Greater than 20%. One of these is actually above DF81, and is looking to be leading to a para group, as there are a number of other snps below it, including DF81. They are:

Z2552>DF81>Y7350>Y7357
Z2552>L617>M225

Z2559>DF83>Z2562>Z2565>Z2564

Z2571>Y8397
Z2571>Z2568

Z2573>CTS1090

Webb
03-11-2015, 08:28 PM
First of all, when you don't have a large amount of samples from a specific region you can have a lot of people that by chance cluster into one group which is what you are looking at. The main reason you see 192 people in the North/South cluster is because the extremely large number of participants that are not Hispanic. If you were to count the number of distinct non-Hispanic participants out of all of the FTDNA projects and the number of distinct Hispanic participants in all of the FTDNA projects you will likely see a ratio of at least 10:1 and I wouldn't be surprised if it were a lot higher than that. If the ratio were closer to 2:1 then the North/South cluster wouldn't be so skewed between Hispanics and non-Hispanics. That should be especially evident with M153 having been identified as a Basque marker many years ago. It's not like there weren't already people in the Basque region with upstream markers when it first appeared there. I hope you don't really think that Z278 through M153 people decided to just pop-in all of the sudden. All of the data that we have so far from Iberia proves otherwise. Like I said before there are relatively a lot of Hispanics that are terminal for DF27. The reason is obviously because either a very large percentage of DF27 people settled the Pyrenees. That included people with SNPs between Z195 and Z278. It is also the reason why DF81 has shown up in the Basque people.

Your original statement was -



That means you included Z278 as mostly non-Iberian. Using the DF27 project results 8 out of 25 are Hispanic and 17 out of 25 are non-Hispanic. If 10x the number of Hispanics were to get Y-DNA tests then the percentage of Hispanics compared to non-Hispanics wouldn't be as lopsided as it is in the FTDNA project.

YFull which is using HGDP and 1k Genomes data, and the FTDNA project doesn't, has the following under Z220 -

3 Hispanics and 1 non-Hispanics between Z216 * Z270/PF7598 and Z214. The single non-Hispanic individual that is Z216+ Z278- is likely due to a sampling issue also.

4 Hispanics under Z220>CTS9050 and there aren't any non-Hispanics.

A "sibling" or "cousin" of Z220 is DF17. 3 out of 5 are Hispanic.

The only subclades that don't have Hispanics are -

Z2355/CTS4065/S1221 * S25783 * CTS3702/S1220 which is the subclade that causes you to think that above Z278 it is mostly non-Hispanic. This is a branch off of Z220 which does not affect people downstream of Z220 which can be seen with the data from above.

Y10801 * Y9088 * Y9087 which only has 2 people

The totality of the evidence proves that a higher sampling of Hispanics would show that Hispanics aren't a minority between Z195 and M153 except in two branches that don't affect the upstream SNPs. Your confusion seems to be with distinguishing branching SNPs and upstream SNPs.

More importantly, there are definitely Hispanics that are terminal for SNPs between Z195/Z196 and Z214 which means Hispanics should test SNPs upstream from Z214.

You are confused, I believe. If the testing bias is 10:1 then why are there no British samples from Z214 down through M153? There is only one reason and that would be that those two clades developed in or very close to the Pyrenees. Whereas from Z278 backwards up to Z220 we see the opposite. A transition from no British samples at the tip of the branch to many at the base of the trunk. Z220 very spread all over Europe at the trunk, to all Spanish at the tip. So if I would not advise someone of British origin who has the defining markers of the North/South cluster to test M153. Just as I would advise someone who has the defining markers who is of Spanish origin to start with Z278 or Z214.

ArmandoR1b
03-11-2015, 09:06 PM
jeanL, please consult with Yfull's experemental tree. There are four new defining snp's below DF27 that seem to have a high rate of Iberian. Greater than 20%. One of these is actually above DF81, and is looking to be leading to a para group, as there are a number of other snps below it, including DF81. They are:

Z2552>DF81>Y7350>Y7357
Z2552>L617>M225

Z2559>DF83>Z2562>Z2565>Z2564

Z2571>Y8397
Z2571>Z2568

Z2573>CTS1090

He would only test for those if he is negative for Z196.

ArmandoR1b
03-11-2015, 09:40 PM
You are confused, I believe. If the testing bias is 10:1 then why are there no British samples from Z214 down through M153? There is only one reason and that would be that those two clades developed in or very close to the Pyrenees. Whereas from Z278 backwards up to Z220 we see the opposite. A transition from no British samples at the tip of the branch to many at the base of the trunk. Z220 very spread all over Europe at the trunk, to all Spanish at the tip. So if I would not advise someone of British origin who has the defining markers of the North/South cluster to test M153. Just as I would advise someone who has the defining markers who is of Spanish origin to start with Z278 or Z214.

Now I see that you are confused about two different things.

First, no British samples from Z214 down through M153 does not mean that a higher sampling of Hispanics would no longer skew the percentages of SNPs above Z214 heavily towards non-Hispanics. Those are two different situations.

Second, which I've already explained to you, the SNPs that you see that only have non-Hispanics is Z2355/CTS4065/S1221 which is a branch of Z295 and they are not upstream SNPs from Z214. CTS4065 is a branch that had more success outside of Iberia which means a Z295 positive person left the region and had descendants with the CTS4065 SNP or we just haven't found the people with the SNP in Iberia. Either situation is possible.

Do you understand why there are several SNPs below DF27 that now have a high percentage of Hispanics such as the ones that you posted in post #116? It's because DF27 is so prevalent in the Pyrenees and Iberia. It is because the downstream SNPs from DF27 developed close to Iberia. That is also why M167/SRY2627 is also so common in Iberia. It is also why Rocca et al. found that "Forty-two of the 49 samples that would previously have been categorized as belonging to unspecified S116(xU152,L21) were derived for the DF27 SNP." It is completely illogical to conclude that with DF27 and almost all other downstream SNPs from DF27 being so prevalent in Iberia that SNPs between Z195 and Z214 are going to be so rare in Iberia that an Hispanic should not test for those SNPs. There is absolutely no reason to advise an Hispanic against testing for Z220, Z210, and Z295 especially since there are Hispanics that are terminal for Z220.

Webb
03-11-2015, 11:33 PM
Now I see that you are confused about two different things.

First, no British samples from Z214 down through M153 does not mean that a higher sampling of Hispanics would no longer skew the percentages of SNPs above Z214 heavily towards non-Hispanics. Those are two different situations.

Second, which I've already explained to you, the SNPs that you see that only have non-Hispanics is Z2355/CTS4065/S1221 which is a branch of Z295 and they are not upstream SNPs from Z214. CTS4065 is a branch that had more success outside of Iberia which means a Z295 positive person left the region and had descendants with the CTS4065 SNP or we just haven't found the people with the SNP in Iberia. Either situation is possible.

Do you understand why there are several SNPs below DF27 that now have a high percentage of Hispanics such as the ones that you posted in post #116? It's because DF27 is so prevalent in the Pyrenees and Iberia. It is because the downstream SNPs from DF27 developed close to Iberia. That is also why M167/SRY2627 is also so common in Iberia. It is also why Rocca et al. found that "Forty-two of the 49 samples that would previously have been categorized as belonging to unspecified S116(xU152,L21) were derived for the DF27 SNP." It is completely illogical to conclude that with DF27 and almost all other downstream SNPs from DF27 being so prevalent in Iberia that SNPs between Z195 and Z214 are going to be so rare in Iberia that an Hispanic should not test for those SNPs. There is absolutely no reason to advise an Hispanic against testing for Z220, Z210, and Z295 especially since there are Hispanics that are terminal for Z220.

Your line of thought only makes sense if DF27 is Iberian in origin, which you alluded to. You can not prove DF27 is Iberian in origin. I also know I cannot prove it originated outside of Iberia. However, my mode of thinking is logical if you assume DF27 originated somewhere else, including Z220. I am very familiar with the Z220 tree. I did not say I would advise against someone testing a particular clade, but if you had had ancestry outside of Iberia and you had the distinguishing markers for the North/South cluster than Z220 would be the logical choice. You and I both know that everyone in the Z214 and M153 groupings are also positive for Z220 as well, but if your goal is to find your most downstream snp, then you still might have quite a bit of testing to do if you are Spanish/Latin American. I know I would test for Z278 first if that was my ancestry.

Webb
03-12-2015, 12:40 AM
Now I see that you are confused about two different things.

First, no British samples from Z214 down through M153 does not mean that a higher sampling of Hispanics would no longer skew the percentages of SNPs above Z214 heavily towards non-Hispanics. Those are two different situations.

Second, which I've already explained to you, the SNPs that you see that only have non-Hispanics is Z2355/CTS4065/S1221 which is a branch of Z295 and they are not upstream SNPs from Z214. CTS4065 is a branch that had more success outside of Iberia which means a Z295 positive person left the region and had descendants with the CTS4065 SNP or we just haven't found the people with the SNP in Iberia. Either situation is possible.

Do you understand why there are several SNPs below DF27 that now have a high percentage of Hispanics such as the ones that you posted in post #116? It's because DF27 is so prevalent in the Pyrenees and Iberia. It is because the downstream SNPs from DF27 developed close to Iberia. That is also why M167/SRY2627 is also so common in Iberia. It is also why Rocca et al. found that "Forty-two of the 49 samples that would previously have been categorized as belonging to unspecified S116(xU152,L21) were derived for the DF27 SNP." It is completely illogical to conclude that with DF27 and almost all other downstream SNPs from DF27 being so prevalent in Iberia that SNPs between Z195 and Z214 are going to be so rare in Iberia that an Hispanic should not test for those SNPs. There is absolutely no reason to advise an Hispanic against testing for Z220, Z210, and Z295 especially since there are Hispanics that are terminal for Z220.

Armando, my interest is in the birthplace of Z220. When I say non-Iberian I mean not exclusively Iberian. I am looking for what I call the tipping point. I have a hard time believing that DF27 originated someplace different from U152, L21, L238, DF19, and so on. They all descend from P312. There are Claude's of L21 that are exclusively Irish. When you move upstream to the point you find evidence outside of Ireland, then that is the tipping point. That tipping point coupled with age estimations might give you clues as to birthplace, birth time, and migration. So if Z214 and M153 are exclusively in the Pyrenees but Z278 is more widespread, then we should concentrate on that tipping point. If Z295 is widespread and CTS4065 is region specific, then we should concentrate on that tipping point. We are lucky that Z220 is very linear with a few side branches. It makes tracking cleaner. But if an upstream clade is found from Britain to Russia, I can not see how we can accurately place the point of origin. On the flip side, when you have a clade like M153, you can say with almost certainty you are looking at a place of origin in the Pyrenees at around 100AD, assuming Yfull's age prediction is correct. Which is pretty close to Mark Jost's prediction. So again, at the trunk, spread all over, at the tips, regionally specific. You can apply this to U152 as well as L21.

ArmandoR1b
03-12-2015, 02:47 AM
Your line of thought only makes sense if DF27 is Iberian in origin, which you alluded to. You can not prove DF27 is Iberian in origin. I also know I cannot prove it originated outside of Iberia.
No, I am not alluding to DF27 being Iberian in origin. I am stating that all SNPs downstream from DF27, except one or two branches, exist in people from Iberia soon after DF27 first appeared in a person. I have never stated that DF27 first appeared in a person in Iberia and if that was my belief I would have stated it in this thread. I am not saying it didn't first appear there either. We just don't know for sure.


However, my mode of thinking is logical if you assume DF27 originated somewhere else, including Z220. I am very familiar with the Z220 tree. I did not say I would advise against someone testing a particular clade, but if you had had ancestry outside of Iberia and you had the distinguishing markers for the North/South cluster than Z220 would be the logical choice. You and I both know that everyone in the Z214 and M153 groupings are also positive for Z220 as well, but if your goal is to find your most downstream snp, then you still might have quite a bit of testing to do if you are Spanish/Latin American. I know I would test for Z278 first if that was my ancestry.

The group Baa*. Z220+/Z210+, Z295- S21184- has two Hispanics with the North/South cluster and one is Basque. Baa. S21184+ (R1b-DF27>Z195/Z196>Z209>Z220/Z210>S21184) has one Hispanic with the North/South cluster. This is proof that there are Hispanics that are negative for Z278. If 10x more Hispanics tested there would be a lot more of them and you would no longer advise starting with Z278.

Yseq doesn't even have Z278 available as a test anyway.

ArmandoR1b
03-12-2015, 03:23 AM
Armando, my interest is in the birthplace of Z220. When I say non-Iberian I mean not exclusively Iberian. I am looking for what I call the tipping point. I have a hard time believing that DF27 originated someplace different from U152, L21, L238, DF19, and so on. They all descend from P312. There are Claude's of L21 that are exclusively Irish. When you move upstream to the point you find evidence outside of Ireland, then that is the tipping point. That tipping point coupled with age estimations might give you clues as to birthplace, birth time, and migration. So if Z214 and M153 are exclusively in the Pyrenees but Z278 is more widespread, then we should concentrate on that tipping point. If Z295 is widespread and CTS4065 is region specific, then we should concentrate on that tipping point. We are lucky that Z220 is very linear with a few side branches. It makes tracking cleaner. But if an upstream clade is found from Britain to Russia, I can not see how we can accurately place the point of origin. On the flip side, when you have a clade like M153, you can say with almost certainty you are looking at a place of origin in the Pyrenees at around 100AD, assuming Yfull's age prediction is correct. Which is pretty close to Mark Jost's prediction. So again, at the trunk, spread all over, at the tips, regionally specific. You can apply this to U152 as well as L21.

The words "mostly non-Iberian" and "not exclusively Iberian" are two completely different things. The whole discussion began when I pointed out what according to you was mostly non-Iberian above Z214 is due to a low percentage of Iberian testees. That discussion came about due to an Hispanic asking for advice about which SNP to test. Now you are changing the discussion into where Z220 was born which has nothing to do with the previous discussion because what I was pointing out was that the person could very well be terminal for an SNP upstream from Z214 including Z220 and I presented evidence to support that statement. If Z220 was born outside Iberia that does not mean an Hispanic is unlikely to be terminal for Z220. As I have said many times, this would be more evident if 10x more Hispanics were to test you would see that Z220 isn't "mostly non-Iberian" which are the words you originally used and can't mean "not exclusively Iberian" even if that is what you meant to write. Since Z220 wouldn't be "mostly non-Iberian" it shouldn't be considered the tipping point.

Chad Rohlfsen
03-12-2015, 03:41 AM
Finally, in the lab. Now, the wait begins. I'll post updates as they come in, and ask for advice on where to test next. Thanks everyone!

Y-DNA37 Y-DNA1-12 Markers 04/08/2015 - 04/22/2015
Y-DNA37 Y-DNA13-25 Markers 04/22/2015 - 05/06/2015
Y-DNA37 Y-DNA26-37 Markers 04/22/2015 - 05/06/2015

Webb
03-12-2015, 04:08 AM
The words "mostly non-Iberian" and "not exclusively Iberian" are two completely different things. The whole discussion began when I pointed out what according to you was mostly non-Iberian above Z214 is due to a low percentage of Iberian testees. That discussion came about due to an Hispanic asking for advice about which SNP to test. Now you are changing the discussion into where Z220 was born which has nothing to do with the previous discussion because what I was pointing out was that the person could very well be terminal for an SNP upstream from Z214 including Z220 and I presented evidence to support that statement. If Z220 was born outside Iberia that does not mean an Hispanic is unlikely to be terminal for Z220. As I have said many times, this would be more evident if 10x more Hispanics were to test you would see that Z220 isn't "mostly non-Iberian" which are the words you originally used and can't mean "not exclusively Iberian" even if that is what you meant to write. Since Z220 wouldn't be "mostly non-Iberian" it shouldn't be considered the tipping point.

You are the one who said there was a bias of 10 to 1. You are saying this applies to DF27 as a whole as well as the north/south cluster. I pointed out that if there was a bias, then why is it Z214 and M153 are, except for the one French kit, exclusively Iberian. This certainly does not appear to be a bias at all. The odd are greater that soneone who carries the distinguishing markers of the north/south cluster and has Spanish/Latin Ameican ancestry, will most likely be in Z278 downstream. I do not see how you can argue those odds. The 25 out of 35 are in those three clades.

ArmandoR1b
03-12-2015, 08:25 PM
You are the one who said there was a bias of 10 to 1. You are saying this applies to DF27 as a whole as well as the north/south cluster. I pointed out that if there was a bias, then why is it Z214 and M153 are, except for the one French kit, exclusively Iberian. This certainly does not appear to be a bias at all.

The reason that Z214 and M153 are, except for the one French kit, exclusively Iberian is because that is a group of people that, for the most part, did not travel outside the Pyrenees. When the testing bias is 10:1 and you still see very low rate of an SNP in the majority group then it obviously is because the SNP exists at very low rate in the majority group. Since you think that has a bearing on the low rate of Hispanics above Z214, even after I showed you that there are Hispanics that are terminal for SNPs above Z214, proves that you are correlating two unrelated situations.



The odd are greater that soneone who carries the distinguishing markers of the north/south cluster and has Spanish/Latin Ameican ancestry, will most likely be in Z278 downstream. I do not see how you can argue those odds. The 25 out of 35 are in those three clades.

You are also changing your original statement again. The original discussion was not about Hispanics in the North/South cluster being more likely to be positive for an SNP downstream from Z278. We were discussing jeanL and he has never stated that he is in the North/South cluster. Your original statement was the following -


This would be Z214. It is mostly people with Spanish ancestry. Higher than that and the people are mostly non-Iberian.

The bolded part and my response to it is what this discussion is about.

If there were not a testing bias then there would be 30 and not 3 Hispanics (there's actually 3 when surnames and country are taken into consideration), and there would still be only 4 non-Hispanics under Baa*. Z220+/Z210+, Z295- S21184-

That means that without a testing bias there would be a lot more Hispanics than non-Hispanics and your statement that higher than Z214 would be completely wrong. Even if 2x the number of Hispanics were to test your statement would be wrong.

Are you willing to accept that your original statement was wrong?

Chad Rohlfsen
03-13-2015, 04:03 AM
Everyone,
Is there still a separate L11, or is everyone under DF100? Where might one find the highest diversity of L11, and or DF100? Thanks!

Webb
03-14-2015, 02:28 PM
The reason that Z214 and M153 are, except for the one French kit, exclusively Iberian is because that is a group of people that, for the most part, did not travel outside the Pyrenees. When the testing bias is 10:1 and you still see very low rate of an SNP in the majority group then it obviously is because the SNP exists at very low rate in the majority group. Since you think that has a bearing on the low rate of Hispanics above Z214, even after I showed you that there are Hispanics that are terminal for SNPs above Z214, proves that you are correlating two unrelated situations.




You are also changing your original statement again. The original discussion was not about Hispanics in the North/South cluster being more likely to be positive for an SNP downstream from Z278. We were discussing jeanL and he has never stated that he is in the North/South cluster. Your original statement was the following -



The bolded part and my response to it is what this discussion is about.

If there were not a testing bias then there would be 30 and not 3 Hispanics (there's actually 3 when surnames and country are taken into consideration), and there would still be only 4 non-Hispanics under Baa*. Z220+/Z210+, Z295- S21184-

That means that without a testing bias there would be a lot more Hispanics than non-Hispanics and your statement that higher than Z214 would be completely wrong. Even if 2x the number of Hispanics were to test your statement would be wrong.

Are you willing to accept that your original statement was wrong?

Absolutely not. My statement is based on probability. Again, of the 192 kits in the North/South cluster, 36 are of Spanish/Latin American ancestry. This is 18.75%. 25 of these 36 kits are Z278 down through Z214. In Z278, they are less than 50% of the kits. In Z214 they are 99% of the kits. In M153, they are 100% of the kits. So 69.4% of the kits claiming Spanish/Latin American ancestry are in Z278 down through M153. First, I do not know how you came up with a bias of 10 to 1. I do not know how anyone can predict accurately what the bias is without having a reference number to start with. Second, assuming there is a bias, if testing increased by 50% amongst people with Spanish/Latin American ancestry, probability dictates that the rate of 69.4% in clades Z278 down through M153 would be static. So while kits claiming Spanish/Latin American ancestry would increase as a whole, the rate of placement would stay the same. But it does not matter. As of right now, with the results we currently have in the North/South cluster. And I mean hard facts, not what it would be if more people tested. I can tell someone that from Z278 upstream, is predominately non-Iberian, meaning the vast majority of the kits claim ancestry from somewhere other than Spain/ Latin America. I can state with certainty, that Z278 has enough people with Spanish/Latin American ancestry, even though it is under 50%, is still significant enough that it might be a good starting place, if they carry the distinguishing values for the North/South Cluster.

ArmandoR1b
03-16-2015, 02:42 AM
Absolutely not. My statement is based on probability. Again, of the 192 kits in the North/South cluster, 36 are of Spanish/Latin American ancestry. This is 18.75%. 25 of these 36 kits are Z278 down through Z214. In Z278, they are less than 50% of the kits. In Z214 they are 99% of the kits. In M153, they are 100% of the kits. So 69.4% of the kits claiming Spanish/Latin American ancestry are in Z278 down through M153. First, I do not know how you came up with a bias of 10 to 1. I do not know how anyone can predict accurately what the bias is without having a reference number to start with.

If you knew a lot of people with Iberian ancestry you would know that getting a DNA test is an extremely low priority even if they have the money to spend on DNA testing. Being able to get the extra spending money is an additional obstacle to getting them tested. It's also well known that DNA testing is mostly done by people in the U.S., Canada, Australia, and to a lesser extent western European countries such as England and much less in Spain and Portugal. It is hardly done by people that live in Latin America. The total number of Hispanics in the U.S., Latin America and Iberia is close to the same as non-Hispanic whites in U.S. Canada, Australia, and most of western Europe but relatively low number of participants in the Mexico DNA Surname Project is a symptom of the testing bias. If testing were done at the same rate in Latin American as it is in the U.S. it would very likely increase the numbers tenfold. Of course I can't get perfectly accurate numbers for the bias but I can make a logical deduction based on the mindset of Hispanics and the population of the U.S. non-Hispanic whites.

Another way to see the testing bias is to search Ysearch.org on R1b modal 55GU9 at 12 markers with a distance of 1. Not counting the other modals that show up there are a total of 959 matches. 926 are non-Iberian and 33 are Iberian. Even if Latin America, Spain and Portugal were 30% R1b and U.S., Canada, and western Europe sans Iberia were 80% R1b 926:36 is obviously astronomically higher than an 8:3 ratio. If there were 926:360 in the result the testing bias wouldn't be off by much. The bias can also be seen when searching on the Ysearch account number of an Hispanic.

The testing bias can also be seen by looking at the match list of just 10 R1b Latin Americans in their FTDNA accounts. Some of them will have up to 40 pages of matches and only a few of pages worth of matches will be people with an Iberian paternal line. Others will only have 10 or 17 pages of matches but they will only have a few pages of matches that are people with an Iberian paternal line. Again, the population difference and rates of R1b in the populations aren't 17:3 and or even 10:3. The ratio of Hispanic matches would not be so low if there weren't a testing bias.

Maybe you have never noticed the situations in the two previous paragraphs but I have noticed them, many times. They are hard facts that prove your numbers are flawed.

Since your statements are based on what you are seeing in the DF27 project which has a testing bias as I explained above the probability you are using is flawed. If 10x the number of people of Iberian descent were to test then the number in the North/South cluster would be 360. If 6x the number were to test the number would be 216 which would still be more than the non-Iberians which would still make the statement "Higher than [Z214] the people are mostly non-Iberian" as incorrect.


Second, assuming there is a bias, if testing increased by 50% amongst people with Spanish/Latin American ancestry, probability dictates that the rate of 69.4% in clades Z278 down through M153 would be static. So while kits claiming Spanish/Latin American ancestry would increase as a whole, the rate of placement would stay the same.

The rate of placement would stay the same for Iberians above and below Z214 but the rate of Iberian vs non-Iberians would not stay the same if there were not a testing bias and it wouldn't be mostly non-Iberian. That was the whole point about me pointing out that "Higher than [Z214] the people are mostly non-Iberian" is an incorrect statement when testing bias is taken into consideration.


But it does not matter. As of right now, with the results we currently have in the North/South cluster. And I mean hard facts, not what it would be if more people tested. I can tell someone that from Z278 upstream, is predominately non-Iberian, meaning the vast majority of the kits claim ancestry from somewhere other than Spain/ Latin America. I can state with certainty, that Z278 has enough people with Spanish/Latin American ancestry, even though it is under 50%, is still significant enough that it might be a good starting place, if they carry the distinguishing values for the North/South Cluster.

My issue isn't with having an Hispanic in the North/South being told that they are more likely to be positive for Z274 than not. It is with the statement "Higher than [Z214] the people are mostly non-Iberian" when testing bias isn't even being taken into consideration. The latter is very different from the former.

ArmandoR1b
03-19-2015, 09:01 PM
Here is yet another way to see the huge testing bias - the Semargl map of unknown R1b which includes all U106 and P312. The non-Hispanic from U.S. and western Europe far outweigh the Hispanic even though the populations are almost the same and the rate of R1b should be something like 80% in western Europe and 57% in Iberia and most likely 45-50% in Latin America. If there wasn't such a huge testing bias the map would show at least 1/3rd of the markers in Latin America and Iberia.

http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/11/

Therefore there is no way that "Higher than [Z214] the people are mostly non-Iberian" is a valid statement.

Krefter
03-19-2015, 10:19 PM
Here is yet another way to see the huge testing bias - the Semargl map of unknown R1b which includes all U106 and P312. The non-Hispanic from U.S. and western Europe far outweigh the Hispanic even though the populations are almost the same .....

There are like 3x more non-Hispanic whites in America(United States) than Hispanics.

ArmandoR1b
03-19-2015, 10:44 PM
There are like 3x more non-Hispanic whites in America(United States) than Hispanics.

It's 3.6x, but there are 588 million people in Latin America and another 57.73 million people in Iberia. Add to that the 54 million U.S. Hispanics then subtract the 40 million indigenous people of Latin America. That is a total of 659.73 million people in the world from Iberia and Ibero-America.

There are about 633 million people in the U.S, Canada, Australia, and western Europe sans Iberia.

659.73 million vs 633 million is close enough to 1:1 for there to have been an 8:3 ration at the most at Ysearch and at Semargl.

If you think that testing in the U.S. by Hispanics in the U.S. is even 25% of the testing by non-Hispanic whites in the U.S. you should count the number of people in the Semargl map I linked above with an Hispanic surname and compare to the number of people with a non-Hispanic surname. I already know that that it is no where close to 25%.

Krefter
03-19-2015, 10:58 PM
It's 4x, but there are 588 million people in Latin America and another 57.73 million people in Iberia. Add to that the 54 million U.S. Hispanics then subtract the 40 million indigenous people of Latin America. That is a total of 659.73 million people in the world from Iberia and Ibero-America.

There are about 633 million people in the U.S, Canada, Australia, and western Europe sans Iberia.

659.73 million vs 633 million is close enough to 1:1 for there to have been an 8:3 ration at the most at Ysearch and at Semargl.

If you think that testing in the U.S. by Hispanics in the U.S. is even 25% of the testing by non-Hispanic whites in the U.S. you should count the number of people in the Semargl map I linked above with an Hispanic surname and compare to the number of people with a non-Hispanic surname. I already know that that it is no where close to 25%.

Latin Americans are more poor than US Americans and advertising for commercial DNA tests are focused on English-speakers. It's obvious why most people who take DNA tests are white Americans or British.

ArmandoR1b
03-19-2015, 11:02 PM
Latin Americans are more poor than US Americans and advertising for commercial DNA tests are focused on English-speakers. It's obvious why most people who take DNA tests are white Americans or British.

Add to that the Hispanics that do have the money don't care as much about DNA testing even when it is explained to them.

All of that proves my point that "Higher than [Z214] the people are mostly non-Iberian" is a not valid statement.

jeanL
03-20-2015, 06:08 PM
So I got my Z196 results back today.

S355 ChrY 21033704 21033705 del+
Z196 ChrY 21033704 21033705 del+

Looks like I am R1b-Z196+. What should be the next step?

ADW_1981
03-20-2015, 06:26 PM
So I got my Z196 results back today.

S355 ChrY 21033704 21033705 del+
Z196 ChrY 21033704 21033705 del+

Looks like I am R1b-Z196+. What should be the next step?

I believe the two most common groups are L176.2 and Z220. If you have a haplotype with the 37 standard FTDNA panel it's an easy choice, but I'm assuming you probably don't.

ArmandoR1b
03-20-2015, 06:45 PM
I believe the two most common groups are L176.2 and Z220. If you have a haplotype with the 37 standard FTDNA panel it's an easy choice, but I'm assuming you probably don't.

Those aren't available at Yseq

ADW_1981
03-20-2015, 06:48 PM
Those aren't available at Yseq

Are there equivalents? I'm not familiar with the other terminology.

ArmandoR1b
03-20-2015, 07:01 PM
So I got my Z196 results back today.

S355 ChrY 21033704 21033705 del+
Z196 ChrY 21033704 21033705 del+

Looks like I am R1b-Z196+. What should be the next step?

You should get Z209 which is an equivalent of Z220 and it is available at Yseq and is upstream from Z278 (not available at Yseq) which is upstream from M153

If positive for Z295 then get CTS12074 which is on the same level as Z278.

If negative for Z295 then get Z198 which is on the same level as L176.2 and upstream from M167/SRY2627

If positive for Z198 then get CTS4188

ArmandoR1b
03-20-2015, 07:08 PM
Are there equivalents? I'm not familiar with the other terminology.

Yes, Z220/S356 * Z271 * Z694 * Z215/S357 * Z268/S450 * Z210 * Z209/S230

Z271 and Z209 are available.

ArmandoR1b
03-20-2015, 08:33 PM
By the way, Z209 was just recently added because when I searched for it last week it wasn't available. I'm not sure about Z271.

jeanL
03-22-2015, 01:16 AM
You should get Z209 which is an equivalent of Z220 and it is available at Yseq and is upstream from Z278 (not available at Yseq) which is upstream from M153

If positive for Z295 then get CTS12074 which is on the same level as Z278.

If negative for Z295 then get Z198 which is on the same level as L176.2 and upstream from M167/SRY2627

If positive for Z198 then get CTS4188

If I could only get one SNPs tested in the near future, which one would you recommend?

ArmandoR1b
03-22-2015, 04:28 AM
If I could only get one SNPs tested in the near future, which one would you recommend?

Z209. That way you at least know if you are in that branch of Z195.

glentane
03-22-2015, 02:18 PM
For "England" they used London? Are they sure about that?
London is absolutely heaving with R-haplogroup males, many of whom don't speak English fluently.
A good chunk of them are likely R1b (Iberian, French, Benelux, Italian etc.)
And then there's the Irish, Welsh and Scots-descended..

corner
06-03-2015, 08:17 PM
DF27+ Z196- is found as far east as Kyiv (Kiev). Kit 153495 has ordered the Big Y.
Have 153495's BigY results come in yet?

lgmayka
06-03-2015, 08:32 PM
Have 153495's BigY results come in yet?
Unfortunately, no. The Big Y order was batched on February 4. :(

razyn
06-04-2015, 05:25 AM
By the way, Z209 was just recently added because when I searched for it last week it wasn't available. I'm not sure about Z271.

I tested Z209(+) in March, 2012. If it was recently MIA, that condition was temporary. But IMO testing equivalent SNPs (same "level," as far as we know) is like trying to draw to an inside straight. There are better ways to waste money.

ArmandoR1b
06-04-2015, 12:35 PM
I tested Z209(+) in March, 2012. If it was recently MIA, that condition was temporary.
My comment was about YSEQ. Since Thomas Krahn didn't leave FTDNA until 2013 (http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=33361) I assume you tested with FTDNA. I had asked Thomas Krahn shortly after I had posted that and he affirmed that he had just added those SNPs. It was around the time that he was working with Richard Hulan on the DF27panel. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-DF27-Project/conversations/messages/2564


But IMO testing equivalent SNPs (same "level," as far as we know) is like trying to draw to an inside straight. There are better ways to waste money.

I wasn't insinuating that both of them should be tested. I was providing a reply to the question "Are there equivalents? I'm not familiar with the other terminology. " in regards to what is available at YSEQ.

razyn
06-04-2015, 08:02 PM
OK, noted. I was only responding to the line I quoted, not several posts farther up. Or down.

And btw I am Richard Hulan. "razyn" is some sort of alias -- I don't hide behind it but it's my handle on a bunch of forums (and has been since it was my eBay name, about 1996).

ArmandoR1b
06-05-2015, 02:02 AM
OK, noted. I was only responding to the line I quoted, not several posts farther up. Or down.
Yes, I had realized that. As you can see context is important.


And btw I am Richard Hulan. "razyn" is some sort of alias -- I don't hide behind it but it's my handle on a bunch of forums (and has been since it was my eBay name, about 1996).

cool