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alan
02-17-2015, 03:11 PM
It has been suggested that this has links with the Caucasus. So I just wanted to kick off with a paste of a post I made a study of the Caucasus in World Families

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/suppl/2011/09/02/msr221.DC1/msr221supp_tables_corr.pdf

This showed elevated M269 and derived clades (undefined) among the Bagvalals (Dagestan, Russia- NE Caucasian speakers), Kumyks (north Dagestan, Russia -Turkic speakers),Tabasarans (Dagestan, Russia- NE Lezgic Caucasian speakers), Kuban Nogays (Black Sea Russia-Turkic speakers), Lezgins (Dagestan-Azerbaijan border - NE Caucasian speakers) and Armenians (IE speakers). Sample shows that R1b is low among Georgians and other than the Armenians is nearly all on the north side of the very high main NW-SE ridge of the Caucasus - on the Russian side. South of this only the Armenians have much M269 clades

M73 only looks significant among Kara (Dagestan, Russia) Nogays, the Balkars of the Russia (Russia-Georgian border area just NW of Osseta) and to a lesser degree Karachays (also of the Russia near the Black Sea end of the border with Georgia). All are Turkic speakers. I notice the Turkic Nogays/Nogais are odd in that the Kuban ones have lots of M269 and no M73 while the Kara ones are the reverse of that.

The main geographical pattern I can see is that M269 derived clades (with the exception of Armenia) are FAR stronger represented in the northern part of the Caucasus within the Russian border between the north Caspian and NE Black Sea and is weakest in Georgia. This is very important and seems to have been overlooked due to the lack of maps in this report and the very awkward to use table.

There is a mythology based on Armenia that R1b (overwhelmingly L23*) is southern in the Caucasus and not a great match for Maykop. This is a myth that I believe until very recently. Both M269 clades and M73 are resoundingly highest on the north side of the Russian border albeit among north Caucasian language speakers and some Turks.

This could mean that M269 has bled into the north Caucasian peoples from the steppe to the north -between the Don/Azov and Volga-Caspian areas -where no barrier lies between the two zones.

rms2
02-17-2015, 03:47 PM
The only clinker in that Transcaucasian scenario is the Samara hunter-gatherer, who is about 7600 years old, R1b1 (L278), EHG, groups pretty close to the R1a1 Karelian hunter-gatherer, and lacks that mystery Near Eastern component. That makes it unlikely that an R1b population from Maykop is its source, it seems to me. Could have been some other group from there, perhaps some wives.

alan
02-17-2015, 03:55 PM
Just to clarify. I am assuming R1b is native to the steppe from the Mesolithic and that M269, L23 etc arose there. What I was doing was looking at where M269 derivatives could have bled south into north Caucasians. The picture from the Caucasus in the report I summarised in my paste of my old World Families post shows M269 is much more common in the north Caucasus than the south. I very much doubt therefore that it moved from south to north. It seems more likely that it bled into the north Caucasians from the adjacent area of the steppe. I am essentially presenting this as a case against linking R1b with a Caucasus component.

rms2
02-17-2015, 04:00 PM
Oh, okay. I took what you posted above to imply that you thought that the mystery Near Eastern component in Yamnaya might have come from the Caucasus with R1b. Guess I misunderstood.

alan
02-17-2015, 04:22 PM
However, just because R1b seems unlikely to have come into the steppe from the south - the east is much more probable-this doesnt absolve us of the need to account for the mystery southern component. It is clearly not European farmer and therefore not Levantine/west Anatolian farmer either. I would feel more comfortable in seeing some sort of autosomal difference from the group who took agriculture to Europe the further east we went from there. If it came from the south then the Caucasus and adjacent parts of east Anatolia are as far west as I would look for a source of the mystery southern element. We could look as far east perhaps as the Stans of central Asia.

Datewise lets just say such a south-north movement of the mystery autosomal component has to not much pre-date 5600BC as the R1b hunter doent have it and has to be there by 3300BC when Yamanaya is clearly formed. We of course cannot rule out that the southern component was somewhere else like the Caspian area which R1b hunters clung on to the north in Samara although I wouldnt want to push that too far back.

Options included

1. Maykop - problem being it dates on the steppes only from a couple of centuries Yamnaya which is a real problem to that theory unless the pre-Yamnaya people were trading wives with them like there was no tomorrow. The only way this would be possible is if the Yamnaya genesis was a one time starburst from a single population who had done a lot of marrying women from Maykop.This seems unlikely.

2. A link farming groups who didnt come via Europe and therefore likely came through the Caucasus, around the east of the Caspian or on boats to the area north of the Caspian. These kind of routes have been suggested but seem to remain controversial in terms of use of domestic animals.

alan
02-17-2015, 04:29 PM
Oh, okay. I took what you posted above to imply that you thought that the mystery Near Eastern component in Yamnaya might have come from the Caucasus with R1b. Guess I misunderstood.

No there are enough people out there who will put that case as it is almost traditional to somehow de-steppe R1b when possible. This is about the mystery autosomal component although if anyone wishes to try and tie that in with yDNA of any sort they are welcome. Its just that the hard evidence from Samara would make it seem very unlikely that an R1b hunter population was replaced by an R1b southern population.

One thing struck me there. Samara is not far from the Kargaly mines and the fact that we have all those L23xL51 Yamnaya guys over a fairly wide area around Samara dating from 3100BC on strongly suggests to me that they were the not too distant descendants of the guys involved in the contacts with north Caucasian Maykop and the introduction of circumpontic metallurgical traditions of metalworking in the formation of Yamnaya.

alan
02-17-2015, 04:34 PM
Oh, okay. I took what you posted above to imply that you thought that the mystery Near Eastern component in Yamnaya might have come from the Caucasus with R1b. Guess I misunderstood.

Just fixed the original post a little to show that I think M269's concentration in the north Caucasus has probably bled through from the steppe.

newtoboard
02-18-2015, 12:25 AM
Just to clarify. I am assuming R1b is native to the steppe from the Mesolithic and that M269, L23 etc arose there. What I was doing was looking at where M269 derivatives could have bled south into north Caucasians. The picture from the Caucasus in the report I summarised in my paste of my old World Families post shows M269 is much more common in the north Caucasus than the south. I very much doubt therefore that it moved from south to north. It seems more likely that it bled into the north Caucasians from the adjacent area of the steppe. I am essentially presenting this as a case against linking R1b with a Caucasus component.

The Catacomb period seems like a good fit for this movement.

alan
02-18-2015, 04:50 PM
Looking at the gedrosia map its hard not to conclude that it was low among the balts and Slavs and therefore low in middle Dnieper , fatyanovo and probably also corded ware in general. This suggests it was low to absent in the middle Dnieper about 3200BC. However the map gives the impression it may have been common to the east along the steppe nearer the Samara and north of Caspian area and perhaps elsewhere but we don't know how far west as the slavic expansion has clearly erased much of the populations that carried more of it. Gedrosia is of course associated with raised r1b in many areas albeit this may have not been its original y partner. So this raises the question of whether the Samara yamnaya carried ii and if so how it got into that culture ? My guess is from the east Caspian area. It also raises the question as to why it seems the Slavs, balts and perhaps western corded ware groups had little of it. It also kind of suggests that L51 was in the gedrosia zone which certainly would appear to not have included the middle Dnieper. Also consider that the middle dniester group would have blocked the routes north for any group on the lower Dnieper.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif

alan
02-18-2015, 05:48 PM
Am starting to strongly think that m269 as we!l as m73 may have been positioned east of r1a c 3300bc and the modern pattern has complete!y changed this. Most European r1a seems to trace back to the middle Dnieper and adjacent corded ware homeland.
While it now seems a lot of Balkan and Anatolian linked groups may well trace back to the zone nearer Samara. Gedrosia seems to suggest to me that L51 was similar in background and retained this. It also tends to suggest it didnt use the Dniester route in numbers

alan
02-18-2015, 06:13 PM
...which does tend to make a south steepes and Danubian route west seem likely for L51. The beaker autosomal similarity to modern hungary certainly doesn't hurt this observation. It still feels mysterious how beaker links up with this given recent interpretations of csepel tend to redate it to 2500BC unless of course beaker and R1b only met around that time in central Europe. Remedello2 of course still is an alternative bridge between southeast Europe and as far west the south of France c. 2900 to 2700bc in the immediate pre-beaker era. It would be interesting to know more details about the remedello 2 burial tradition.

alan
02-21-2015, 07:29 PM
One thing to bear in mind is this. This mystery component must have been spread throughout the steppes from Samara and beyond in the east to the Dnieper in the west by 3000BC in order to feed into corded ware. This has implications for the explanatory options. This throws up questions. The degree and directions of contact with farmers in pre-Yamnaya times on the steppes seems to vary from one end to the other. It would seem,unless Yamnaya really did expand from one population, that the non EHG components of Yamnaya in Samara and the Dnieper should vary. Also, again if Yamnaya varies rather than came from a confined group, we would expect variation among Yamnaya in ENF too. It would seem virtually impossible for a group who had long lived near the Dniester not to have picked up some ENF i.e the European farmer type genes. Yet there was none in Samara Yamnaya. If Yamnaya was broad horizon of change in the steppes rather than an expansion from a confined point then Yamnaya at the Dnieper could have looked very different from Samara i.e. it should have had a lot more European Neolithic farmer genes. It also follows that it seems very likely that the mystery southern component would be less prevalent at the far west of the steppe where European farmer genes from the Balkans etc seem likely.