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View Full Version : Y Haplogroup : R-DF21 + R - L21 outside Anglo-Saxon countries



José Santos
02-19-2015, 04:07 PM
Hello. I belong to the Y-DNA Haplogroup R-L21 and R-DF21, but I didn't find anyone with this kind of DNA except two men in Ireland. My family is from Brazil, and I'd like to know if this haplogroup is common just in UK and Ireland, since there was so few people with this characteristics inside the "Family Tree DNA" database.

My family is living in Brazil since the middle ages, in an isolated community inside the Atlantic Forest, and I don't know how could they be descendants of Irish people. This history is strange and fascinating.

Thanks.

Dubhthach
02-19-2015, 04:22 PM
I should note that "Anglos-Saxon" is not a term most Irish people would accept (English only became a majority language in Ireland circa 1800) ;). Anyways DF21 is an old haplogroup with a wide spread. What level of testing have you done?

José Santos
02-19-2015, 05:08 PM
I'm sorry for my english. My genes speak english, my brain speaks portuguese :beerchug: I've made the test called "12 Marker" in the website "Family Tree DNA".

Dubhthach
02-20-2015, 01:27 PM
I'm sorry for my english. My genes speak english, my brain speaks portuguese :beerchug: I've made the test called "12 Marker" in the website "Family Tree DNA".

Your genes might speak some sorta Celtic as oppose to English ;) 12 STR's isn't really that usefull, I would recommend upgrading to at least 37 STR's, where did you get your DF21 result from? Was it National Genographic Geno 2.0 product?

Rory Cain
01-25-2016, 03:01 AM
Yep, much L21 and almost all DF21 is found outside Anglo-Saxon regions. L21 is spread through what were formerly or still are Celtic regions. DF21 has but a small presence in modern day England , just enough to show that it too was once Celtic, and a good showing on the Celtic countries or Ireland and Scotland. Some folks in Northern Spain and Northern Portugal also consider themselves Celtic. But if you establish what sub-clade of DF21 you belong to, we can be more precise than just speaking about countries.
As has been suggested to you, an upgrade from Y12 may be one way, as that may help to match you with one of our known DF21+ sub-groups: S971, FGC3213, FGC3903 or S5488. Better still, in my opinion, a SNP test. New Generation Sequencing (NGS) such as Family Tree DNA's Big Y are discovery tests that will deliver your markers, not just test you for someone else's markers.

MitchellSince1893
01-25-2016, 06:51 AM
L21 may have been the victim of multiple arrivals in Eastern England. Based on FTDNA project data, the present day distribution of L21 in England is lowest where U152 is coincidentally the highest.

Suffolk: L21=2%, U152=9%
Norfolk: L21=4%, U152=15%
Essex: L21=5%, U152=12%

Don't get hung up on the percentages above, as R1b appears to be under represented in the FTDNA projects when compared to non R1b, so they are probably a little higher for both L21 and U152.

Could the low percentages for L21 in this area be the result of the La Tene/Belgic arrivals (potential sources for U152), followed by the Romans (another source for U152) and then the Anglo Saxons (Hg I and U106)?

northkerry
01-25-2016, 08:16 AM
L21 may have been the victim of multiple arrivals in Eastern England. Based on FTDNA project data, the present day distribution of L21 in England is lowest where U152 is coincidentally the highest.

Suffolk: L21=2%, U152=9%
Norfolk: L21=4%, U152=15%
Essex: L21=5%, U152=12%

Don't get hung up on the percentages above, as R1b appears to be under represented in the FTDNA projects when compared to non R1b, so they are probably a little higher for both L21 and U152.

Could the low percentages for L21 in this area be the result of the La Tene/Belgic arrivals (potential sources for U152), followed by the Romans (another source for U152) and then the Anglo Saxons (Hg I and U106)?

U106 is only 36% of R1b in south east England, which R1b subgroups does the other 64% of R1b belong to?

Here are the percentages for Irelandsdna/Scotlandsdna.com database for Ireland and Britain.

R1b 70%
S116 9%
S145 21%
M222 7%
S285 5%
S735 7%
S21 16%

I 16%

R1a 4%

J 3%

E3%

G 2%

MitchellSince1893
01-25-2016, 03:11 PM
U106 is only 36% of R1b in south east England, which R1b subgroups does the other 64% of R1b belong to?

Here are the percentages for Irelandsdna/Scotlandsdna.com database for Ireland and Britain.

R1b 70%
S116 9%
S145 21%
M222 7%
S285 5%
S735 7%
S21 16%

I 16%

R1a 4%

J 3%

E3%

G 2%

Can't speak for BDNA results but here were my overall results. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6154-Y-DNA-Haplogroup-Percentages-and-maps-for-England-Source-FTDNA-Y-DNA-projects&p=131772&viewfull=1#post131772

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6154-Y-DNA-Haplogroup-Percentages-and-maps-for-England-Source-FTDNA-Y-DNA-projects&p=131770&viewfull=1#post131770

In Kent U106 was 18 of the 40 R1b (45%)
L21 was 17.5%
DF27 was 12.5%
U152 was 10.%
DF99 was 2.5%
P312 was 2.5%
R1b was 10.0%

Jean M
01-25-2016, 03:30 PM
Hello. I belong to the Y-DNA Haplogroup R-L21 and R-DF21, but I didn't find anyone with this kind of DNA except two men in Ireland. My family is from Brazil, and I'd like to know if this haplogroup is common just in UK and Ireland, since there was so few people with this characteristics inside the "Family Tree DNA" database.

My family is living in Brazil since the middle ages, in an isolated community inside the Atlantic Forest, and I don't know how could they be descendants of Irish people. This history is strange and fascinating.

Bem-vindo José. Do you know where in Portugal your male line ancestor lived before migrating to Brazil? Was it in the north? There is some L21 there which could have arrived in two ways:


In the Bronze Age (c. 1300 to 700 BC), with trade from Britain and Ireland along the Atlantic.
In the Post-Roman period when some Romano-British Christians fled to Gallaecia, which was larger than the present region of Galicia, encompassing Asturias and Leon (Spain) and northern Portugal. A British diocese there is first mentioned in 572, with its see probably at the monastery of Santa Maria de Bretoņa near Mondoņedo.


7459

Rory Cain
01-26-2016, 12:08 AM
Thanks Jean for developing my suggestion further. I hesitated to make too much of it because while L21 amongst the Gallegos is nothing unusual, I am unaware of any DF21 yet. We have one Iberian-sounding member in the R-DF21 project, kit 374484, ancestor Manuel Diaz b 1850, unknown origin. As Jose has not joined the R-DF21 Project, I don't know if he and Seņor Diaz would group together. It would provide more information to work with if Jose joined the R-DF21 Project and if he and Seņor Diaz both tested what sub-clade of DF21 they belong to. The search for a Continental DF21, which is a Holy Grail for some, might then bear fruit. Who knows.

Rory Cain
01-29-2016, 10:24 PM
To test positive for DF21 and then do nothing further is to stand on the threshold to the doorway without ever entering. That's about where Jose is at present. Senor Diaz from Florida has a foot in the door. He joined the R-DF21 & Subclades Project so I can at least use my Group Admin toolbox to see which sub-groups he is genetically closest too. He has not yet tested for any SNPs donstream of DF21 so we don;t know his subclade. Then we have Senor Torres from Mexico, who did a Big Y test to discover his sub-clade of DF21. He belongs to the DF21 > Z30233 > FGC3903 > Z246 > DF25 > DF5 branch, same as myself actually, except that our lines diverge downstream of DF5. It would be an interesting exercise to further develop this New World occurrence of DF21 amongst people of Spanish and Portuguese origin. Seņor Torres has certainly done his bit. To progress further would now depend upon the other two, or else some other folks to come forward.

Rory Cain
05-11-2016, 09:17 PM
Several invitations have been extended to Seņor Santos (Brazil) to join the R -DF21 Project but his answer is evidently "No way, Jose!" Meanwhile there are other Latin Americans who have seen the light including Torres (Mexico) and Diaz (Puerto Rico). They have now been joined by Seņor Alia (Spain), the first Spanish DF21 which changes the dynamiic with a direct link to Spain.

Torres is DF5+. He and Diaz have different STR signatures, and Diaz is untested downstream of DF21, but all his nearest DF 21+ matches are from the FGC3903 branch, and I suspect Diaz to be DF5 also. Alia has no STR markers.

TigerMW
05-11-2016, 09:52 PM
Several invitations have been extended to Seņor Santos (Brazil) to join the R -DF21 Project but his answer is evidently "No way, Jose!" Meanwhile there are other Latin Americans who have seen the light including Torres (Mexico) and Diaz (Puerto Rico). They have now been joined by Seņor Alia (Spain), the first Spanish DF21 which changes the dynamiic with a direct link to Spain.

Torres is DF5+. He and Diaz have different STR signatures, and Diaz is untested downstream of DF21, but all his nearest DF 21+ matches are from the FGC3903 branch, and I suspect Diaz to be DF5 also. Alia has no STR markers.
It does not look like we would consider DF5 as a "deep Isles" subclade, right? If there are DF5 is found spread around a bit with out a close haplotype I think we have to say we don't know if the DF5 on the continent came from the Isles, for sure in the historical timeframe.

Rory Cain
05-12-2016, 02:36 AM
It does not look like we would consider DF5 as a "deep Isles" subclade, right? If there are DF5 is found spread around a bit with out a close haplotype I think we have to say we don't know if the DF5 on the continent came from the Isles, for sure in the historical timeframe.

Mike, I'm keeping my powder dry on this one. The 4,200 year old DF21 has no unambiguous and undisputed Continental sub-clades, just an unconvincing spread of singletons, mostly of North American residency, with paper-trails to the Continent. Some of those are clearly wishful thinking. Others have yet to be either proven or disproven. So when we dig down as far as the 3,700 year old DF5, we naturally find less Continental claimants again. DF5 is spread from Cornwall to the Orkneys thence west to Galway, and Kerry on the west coast of Ireland. It still looks "deep Isles" and I dont have evidence to overturn that.

I believe that Jean's post #9 on this thread sums up the most likely scenarios. While referring to L21, Jean's thoughts would apply even more so to DF5, being considerably younger than L21.

"There is some L21 there which could have arrived in two ways:

"In the Bronze Age (c. 1300 to 700 BC), with trade from Britain and Ireland along the Atlantic.
In the Post-Roman period when some Romano-British Christians fled to Gallaecia, which was larger than the present region of Galicia, encompassing Asturias and Leon (Spain) and northern Portugal. A British diocese there is first mentioned in 572, with its see probably at the monastery of Santa Maria de Bretoņa near Mondoņedo."

I am not necessarily locking into that either, at this time. I would like to see the other two Hispanic men do the same tests as Nehemiah Torres. Right now, we can only compare apples with oranges. Maybe they are Valencia oranges from Spain? Or maybe apples from the Isles?

Gravetto-Danubian
05-12-2016, 03:11 AM
Mike, I'm keeping my powder dry on this one. The 4,200 year old DF21 has no unambiguous and undisputed Continental sub-clades, just an unconvincing spread of singletons, mostly of North American residency, with paper-trails to the Continent. Some of those are clearly wishful thinking. Others have yet to be either proven or disproven. So when we dig down as far as the 3,700 year old DF5, we naturally find less Continental claimants again. DF5 is spread from Cornwall to the Orkneys thence west to Galway, and Kerry on the west coast of Ireland. It still looks "deep Isles" and I dont have evidence to overturn that.

I believe that Jean's post #9 on this thread sums up the most likely scenarios. While referring to L21, Jean's thoughts would apply even more so to DF5, being considerably younger than L21.

"There is some L21 there which could have arrived in two ways:

"In the Bronze Age (c. 1300 to 700 BC), with trade from Britain and Ireland along the Atlantic.
In the Post-Roman period when some Romano-British Christians fled to Gallaecia, which was larger than the present region of Galicia, encompassing Asturias and Leon (Spain) and northern Portugal. A British diocese there is first mentioned in 572, with its see probably at the monastery of Santa Maria de Bretoņa near Mondoņedo."

I am not necessarily locking into that either, at this time. I would like to see the other two Hispanic men do the same tests as Nehemiah Torres. Right now, we can only compare apples with oranges. Maybe they are Valencia oranges from Spain? Or maybe apples from the Isles?

Rory, are there many matches for the L21 sampled Rathlin guys ?
(I know this has probably been covered already elsewhere)

Rory Cain
05-12-2016, 12:37 PM
Rory, are there many matches for the L21 sampled Rathlin guys ?
(I know this has probably been covered already elsewhere)

One had been identified as Z30233+ and FGC3903-, splitting two SNPs that had been inseparable. Another had some ambiguous reads for S5488. These are the two largest and most genetically diverse sub-clades if DF 21. Both are found mainly in Central Scotland and the west of Ireland. The Z30233 man has quite a number of "private SNPs not yet found in anyone else.

karex
06-08-2018, 10:59 PM
Hello. I belong to the Y-DNA Haplogroup R-L21 and R-DF21, but I didn't find anyone with this kind of DNA except two men in Ireland. My family is from Brazil, and I'd like to know if this haplogroup is common just in UK and Ireland, since there was so few people with this characteristics inside the "Family Tree DNA" database.

My family is living in Brazil since the middle ages, in an isolated community inside the Atlantic Forest, and I don't know how could they be descendants of Irish people. This history is strange and fascinating.

Thanks.

Dear José, I might be able to help you shed some light into DNA results which point to British Isles origins. But first I need to know if you have any ancestral origins in the Iberian Peninsula (mostly Portuguese?).The Azores and Madeira archipelagos had a significant number of Scottish settlers. I myself descend from one of them (Drummond). Please feel free to contact me through krexwall03(at)gmail.com and I will try to help you sort out this mystery genealogically. Please feel free to compose your message in Portuguese as I am fluent.