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View Full Version : U5b2 Is Upper Paleolithic/Mesolithic European In origin



J Man
10-15-2012, 06:31 PM
Based on the results of ancient remains from Mesolithic Europe I am pretty much convinced that the U5b2 subclade of mtDNA haplogroup U5 has it's origins in the Upper Paleolithic/Mesolithic pre-agricultural Europe population of hunter-gatherers. Samples of confirmed U5b2 have been found in two separate sites dating to the Mesolithic in Germany and one site in Mesolithic Spain. The two Mesolithic samples from the Spanish site of La-Brana-Arintero have also been refined down to the U5b2c1 subclade. There are also three ancient samples from hunter-gatherer remains from Lithuania that may possibly be U5b2 but they are not confirmed and the best resolution for them still is only U5b. These results I believe pretty much confirm that the U5b2 subclade of U5 has it's origins in either Upper Paleolithic or Mesolithic Europe before the arrival of agriculture. The bearers of U5b2 lineages were probably part of numerous different cultures that existed in both Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europe. You can see the ancient samples of U5b2 in the link below from Jean M's great site. Gail T also has a great write up on U5b2 in the results section of the haplogroup U5 project at FTDNA.

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U5b/default.aspx?section=results

Baltimore1937
10-16-2012, 09:46 PM
If my U5b2b2 haplotype is from Sweden, as might possibly be the case from my maternal tree dabbling, then it would be from the earliest indigenous peoples there (Lapps or whatever they're called), before the coming of Indo-Europeans (Germanic, etc).

GailT
10-17-2012, 06:01 AM
If my U5b2b2 haplotype is from Sweden, as might possibly be the case from my maternal tree dabbling, then it would be from the earliest indigenous peoples there (Lapps or whatever they're called), before the coming of Indo-Europeans (Germanic, etc).

I think the story is more complex than this. I'm no expert on the Saami, and I don't know what their migration history was, so I can't vouch for the accuracy of this next quote - but Mike wrote at Dienekes blog:


The people who brought Saami language were Uralic people who came to the Ladoga region 2500 BP. The Saami history in Finland is quite well known and their movement to the north happened during the last 2000 years. The Saami people living today mostly in Norway are a mix of these "newcomers" and old Mesolithic people.

This seems consistent with some of the dominant Saami subclades such as U5b1b1a1 having very young age estimates. U5b2b2 has a much older age estimate, so my guess is U5b2b2 was present in the first Mesolithic hunter-gatherers to repopulate Europe and that it predated the arrival of the Saami in northern Europe.

It seems likely that some of the older subclades of U5b1 and U5b2 persisted longer in the northern and western fringes of Europe as Neolithic immigrants expanded into southeastern and then central Europe. Some of these subclades that are found frequently in Germanic peoples today might have adopted farming (or been adopted into farming communities) in northern Europe relatively recently (perhaps 4,000 BP) and then expanded again into central and southern Europe during the expansion and migrations of Germanic peoples. For example, in northern Europe we have:

Maglemosian culture (ca. 9500 BC–6500 BC)
Kongemose culture (roughly 6000 BC–5200 BC)
Ertebølle culture (ca 5300 BC – 3950 BC)

And I'd expect to find old subclades of U5b1 and U5b2 (and perhaps U5a) in these cultures. The so called Saami signature U5b1b1a is younger and is also found in eastern Europe which might suggest a connection to Hungarian, another Uralic language.

Baltimore1937
10-17-2012, 07:53 AM
I see U5b2b4 has a couple of entries in Sweden and Norway. And their HVR1+HVR2 look pretty close to mine. I agree with a Mesolithic origin out of western Europe, since who am I to argue with scholars on the subject.

J Man
10-18-2012, 03:59 AM
I think the story is more complex than this. I'm no expert on the Saami, and I don't know what their migration history was, so I can't vouch for the accuracy of this next quote - but Mike wrote at Dienekes blog:


This seems consistent with some of the dominant Saami subclades such as U5b1b1a1 having very young age estimates. U5b2b2 has a much older age estimate, so my guess is U5b2b2 was present in the first Mesolithic hunter-gatherers to repopulate Europe and that it predated the arrival of the Saami in northern Europe.

It seems likely that some of the older subclades of U5b1 and U5b2 persisted longer in the northern and western fringes of Europe as Neolithic immigrants expanded into southeastern and then central Europe. Some of these subclades that are found frequently in Germanic peoples today might have adopted farming (or been adopted into farming communities) in northern Europe relatively recently (perhaps 4,000 BP) and then expanded again into central and southern Europe during the expansion and migrations of Germanic peoples. For example, in northern Europe we have:

Maglemosian culture (ca. 9500 BC–6500 BC)
Kongemose culture (roughly 6000 BC–5200 BC)
Ertebølle culture (ca 5300 BC – 3950 BC)

And I'd expect to find old subclades of U5b1 and U5b2 (and perhaps U5a) in these cultures. The so called Saami signature U5b1b1a is younger and is also found in eastern Europe which might suggest a connection to Hungarian, another Uralic language.

Gail which subclades of U5b1 and U5b2 do you think are the oldest ones that persisted the longest in northern and western fringes of Europe that you mention above?

GailT
10-18-2012, 04:27 AM
Gail which subclades of U5b1 and U5b2 do you think are the oldest ones that persisted the longest in northern and western fringes of Europe that you mention above?

Very speculative, but it seems like U5b2 might have a wider distribution in the northern fringe, and U5b1 might be more frequent in the Iberian Peninsula. It would be nice to see more ancient FMS DNA results to test this.

Baltimore1937
10-18-2012, 05:21 AM
U5b2b2 may have entered the Scandinavian peninsula very early, with U5b2b4 arriving at a later date. U5b2b3 looks to have a strong presence in Iberia, although that could be a later introduction by the Visigoths, for example. This is just from looking at the U5 Project entries. Unfortunately, most of them are confined to the USA or are unknown origins. I don't recall impressions about U5b2b1 and U5b2b5, so I'll have to look it up.

J Man
10-18-2012, 02:53 PM
Very speculative, but it seems like U5b2 might have a wider distribution in the northern fringe, and U5b1 might be more frequent in the Iberian Peninsula. It would be nice to see more ancient FMS DNA results to test this.

Do you think that U5b2c may have been part of that Western/Northern fringe population?

GailT
10-19-2012, 08:29 PM
Do you think that U5b2c may have been part of that Western/Northern fringe population?

Definitely Yes. U5b2c has been found almost exclusively in the UK, Spain and Scandinavia. If there were any doubt, the La-Brana-Arintero samples confirm this. Also, the three U5b2c2b samples in the 1000 Genomes project were all from England and Scotland.

J Man
10-19-2012, 09:48 PM
^Thanks for your thoughts on this Gail. It is all very interesting. I know that it is mostly speculation at this point but do you believe that U5b2c people may have been some of the last hunter-gatherers of Europe that held out the longest against the advance of agriculture into the Western and Northern fringes of the continent of Europe?

GailT
10-19-2012, 11:10 PM
^Thanks for your thoughts on this Gail. It is all very interesting. I know that it is mostly speculation at this point but do you believe that U5b2c people may have been some of the last hunter-gatherers of Europe that held out the longest against the advance of agriculture into the Western and Northern fringes of the continent of Europe?

Yes, I think that's a reasonable conclusion from the evidence currently available. It would be nice to see more Mesolithic mtDNA tested at the full genome level to further test this theory.

J Man
10-20-2012, 02:39 AM
What other subclades of U5 do you believe also persisted as hunter-gatherers the longest in the Western and Northern fringes of Europe along with U5b2c?

Baltimore1937
11-20-2012, 04:57 PM
My Medieval maternal lineage that I put together hits a funny fork-in-the-road spot with Margaret Verch Llewelyn, born not later than 1210 in North Wales. Most entries in one genealogical website has her mother as Tangwystl Verch Llywarch (seemingly indigenous Welsh). While the entries in another website tip toward Joan Plantagenet. So, what does this mean for my U5b2b2? It may be a choice between Mesolithic Welsh versus Danish Vikings.