Cymru DNA Wales

[Wing Genealogist]

Given the rarity of L48 in Wales, there is a slight (but real) possibility this cousin may share a not so distant (within the last 1000 years or so) direct male-line ancestor with JohnHowellsTyrfro. Z326 is a subclade of Z9 (which I mentioned in a prior post).

[JohnHowellsTyrfro]

Given the rarity of L48 in Wales, there is a slight (but real) possibility this cousin may share a not so distant (within the last 1000 years or so) direct male-line ancestor with JohnHowellsTyrfro. Z326 is a subclade of Z9 (which I mentioned in a prior post).

If that were the case it might help answer some questions for other people whom I share paternal ancestry with and you know about.
I appear to have an autosomal match with people who have ancestry in Carmarthenshire but there is no paper trail, surnames would be irrelevant in that sort of timescale. It might not be paternal of course and maybe too long ago to show up on an autosomal test?
As far as I know my paternal ancestry is in the East of Wales in fact a few miles into Herefordshire back to the mid-1600's. The Cecil origins seems to put them there ( I think) in the 1400's, but there could have been movement of ancestors around Wales in the Wars of the Roses period or earlier.
It would certainly be very interesting if true, however I guess that on the Wales/England border Z326 would be less of a rarity.

[[email protected]]

I've only just noted the X2b. Does his mother have Welsh Ancestry?
A quick read on X2 suggests there is a concentration in Orkney and NW Scotland but I don't know if that would include X2b it seems it's one of the more European groups. I get the impression it is "early" - Neolithic migrations? Fits my theory relating to "Orkney / NW Scotland" percentages on Living DNA and possible migration of people from that region down the Irish sea and into Wales. If you tell me his maternal ancestry is from Kent I shall be disappointed. :)

I added the mtdna entry later, almost as an after thought, it’s often forgotten in ancestry, but thought for completeness I should add it.
Again we thought she had deep maternal llanelli roots, but llanelli was one of them Industrial towns which acted like magnets for people all over South Wales, also the Irish, some Scots and English came there to work in its steel and tin plate Industry, also further outside its surrounded by Coal mines.
I suppose he needs to do a tree, although he is actually on mine, maybe I need to try researching them lines, once I start back again.

[rms2]

I wish we could get an in depth study of Welsh y-dna, I mean NGS SNP testing and the whole nine yards. My little haplotype cluster project has a Powys/West Midlands focus, and much of what is now the West Midlands of England was once part of the old Welsh kingdom of Powys. I'd really like to see the results.

I'd really like to see some ancient dna from the Cornovii of Shropshire and Powys and from Bell Beaker in the same area back before that.

[msmarjoribanks]

I don't go on Ancestry all that much lately, but I just realized there's a DNA Circle for one of my Welsh immigrant ancestors, Griffith Jones (of course), and was momentarily existed that one of the other members was in his Y-DNA line. But then I realized he wasn't, his paternal line are different Joneses (also descended from Joneses from Wales), but my ancestor is his on his father's mother's line, darn. Guess a Y-DNA test would still be interesting, but less so personally for me.

In reviewing this, I pulled up some of my old stuff from that side of the family, including a certified copy of a birth certificate a cousin of mine ordered for our common ancestor some years ago. On it, the child, father Griffith Jones, mother Margaret Jones, formerly Jones, and a signature from the registrar who filled it out (also surname Jones -- total coincidence, of course, but really?).

The guy in my DNA Circle is surname Jones, father's father AND father's mother surname Jones. And then a couple generations back this other couple also a Jones/Jones pair. His other side seems to be Owens and Williams. Lots of these people married in the US, but in this mostly Welsh community in Wisconsin where there used to be several Welsh language churches. My Jones and Humphreys (both immigrants from Wales) seem to have met and married there, and then their daughter had the bad judgment to marry yet another Jones (an English one, although his roots go to Shropshire on that side, so who knows).

Sorry, no reason for this complaining, we've actually managed to track down a pretty good amount given all this. I was mostly just excited about possibly having a Welsh Y-DNA line to test. Inspired by this, I'm going to try to find some other direct male to male to male descendant with a presence at any of the sites I've tested (or interested close female relative, which seems more likely).

[JohnHowellsTyrfro]

I don't go on Ancestry all that much lately, but I just realized there's a DNA Circle for one of my Welsh immigrant ancestors, Griffith Jones (of course), and was momentarily existed that one of the other members was in his Y-DNA line. But then I realized he wasn't, his paternal line are different Joneses (also descended from Joneses from Wales), but my ancestor is his on his father's mother's line, darn. Guess a Y-DNA test would still be interesting, but less so personally for me.

In reviewing this, I pulled up some of my old stuff from that side of the family, including a certified copy of a birth certificate a cousin of mine ordered for our common ancestor some years ago. On it, the child, father Griffith Jones, mother Margaret Jones, formerly Jones, and a signature from the registrar who filled it out (also surname Jones -- total coincidence, of course, but really?).

The guy in my DNA Circle is surname Jones, father's father AND father's mother surname Jones. And then a couple generations back this other couple also a Jones/Jones pair. His other side seems to be Owens and Williams. Lots of these people married in the US, but in this mostly Welsh community in Wisconsin where there used to be several Welsh language churches. My Jones and Humphreys (both immigrants from Wales) seem to have met and married there, and then their daughter had the bad judgment to marry yet another Jones (an English one, although his roots go to Shropshire on that side, so who knows).

Sorry, no reason for this complaining, we've actually managed to track down a pretty good amount given all this. I was mostly just excited about possibly having a Welsh Y-DNA line to test. Inspired by this, I'm going to try to find some other direct male to male to male descendant with a presence at any of the sites I've tested (or interested close female relative, which seems more likely).

The curse of the Jones surname. I have two that I know of, maternal and paternal side.
Go back a few hundred years at most and there are probably many people of Welsh origin with different surnames descended from the same paternal line. In Wales really surnames are not a good indicator of paternal connections beyond a few hundred years. I've even seen brothers and sisters with different surnames. It wasn't always the father's name that was passed down to the next generation.

[msmarjoribanks]

Very true. We managed to get one Jones line back to the children of a John Rowland who lived in Trefriw in the 1700s. My Shropshire Joneses seem to have had the name longer, but I've been open to the idea that different surnames will be close connections, of course. So far my closest connection there (not a surname that seems Welsh at all) is not easily explained, as my match says so far as he knows his family has been in Sussex for a long time. Not enough testing to have a good idea of how close we are, however.

[JohnHowellsTyrfro]

Here is quite a good article on the Welsh patronymic naming system which makes life very difficult for anyone tracing their paternal ancestry.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=17&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiLvq_I49zXAhXQzKQKHaYfDLQQFgiCATAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwelshpatronymics.blogspot.com%2F&usg=AOvVaw0VUXYf_jRPXaSxbJuOFe6n

[rms2]

When are we going to get a Welsh DNA Atlas?

I was watching a video on the Appalachians earlier today. Mention was made of Welsh immigration to the Appalachians, but then the subject turned to the Scots-Irish and that was it: the Welsh were done.

We always seem to get the short end of the stick.

[rms2]

When are we going to get a Welsh DNA Atlas?

I was watching a video on the Appalachians earlier today. Mention was made of Welsh immigration to the Appalachians, but then the subject turned to the Scots-Irish and that was it: the Welsh were done.

We always seem to get the short end of the stick.

They always talk about the Scots-Irish and their stills, and I have plenty of Scots-Irish ancestry, to be sure, but what about the Welsh and whiskey?

It can't be a coincidence that Evan Williams was a Welsh immigrant and Jack Daniel was the grandson of a Welsh immigrant.

20432 20433

[JohnHowellsTyrfro]

They always talk about the Scots-Irish and their stills, and I have plenty of Scots-Irish ancestry, to be sure, but what about the Welsh and whiskey?

It can't be a coincidence that Evan Williams was a Welsh immigrant and Jack Daniel was the grandson of a Welsh immigrant.

20432 20433

There is a link here that refers to Evan Williams, doesn't provide much detail though.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiyiuSozZDYAhWIZlAKHbP0BiAQFghVMAY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpenderyn.wales%2Fdistilling-in-wales%2F&usg=AOvVaw30_DqjC4ZEIdQk8L8UZZK3

[JohnHowellsTyrfro]

A bit of news on my maternal John Jones.
A relative has a copy of a marriage certificate which takes me back a generation and possibly two. It looks like John's father was William a colliery overman and possibly from Breconshire although that's not 100%. His father may have been an Enoch Jones from Brecs but that needs looking into further.
It seems John's wife's Sarah was a Griffiths she seems to have had a brother Thomas who was a witness at the wedding. Her father was also named John, an Ostler and he was born in Montgomery.
It gives me a little more to go on anyway after being stuck for a long time.

[avalon]

When are we going to get a Welsh DNA Atlas?

I was watching a video on the Appalachians earlier today. Mention was made of Welsh immigration to the Appalachians, but then the subject turned to the Scots-Irish and that was it: the Welsh were done.

We always seem to get the short end of the stick.

Too true, I have been saying this for years!

Part of the problem is that Wales is a small country. 3 million people and 12 million sheep and it is often just seen as an extension of England. A lot of people simply aren't aware about the history and the language, etc.

Really it needs one of the Welsh universities to do a really thorough research project, somewhere like Bangor or Aberywstwyth but these places may not have genetics departments or research labs, so who knows.

[JohnHowellsTyrfro]

Too true, I have been saying this for years!

Part of the problem is that Wales is a small country. 3 million people and 12 million sheep and it is often just seen as an extension of England. A lot of people simply aren't aware about the history and the language, etc.

Really it needs one of the Welsh universities to do a really thorough research project, somewhere like Bangor or Aberywstwyth but these places may not have genetics departments or research labs, so who knows.

Cardiff Uni focuses on archaeology and Celtic studies? They also seem to have genetics courses but mainly related to healthcare it appears.
Maybe we should start a petition. :)

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi6ztz7jJHYAhXPLVAKHWQPCcMQFggpMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cardiff.ac.uk%2Fhistory-archaeology-religion&usg=AOvVaw2VnIIjrK24YFQDqiiTCVr6

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjmhpLLjZHYAhXKIlAKHXVtDwcQFggpMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cardiff.ac.uk%2Fstudy%2Fpost graduate%2Ftaught%2Fcourses%2Fgroup%2Fearly-celtic-studies&usg=AOvVaw1XujpfBogS2FGsDtImN1ZP

[Phoebe Watts]

A bit of news on my maternal John Jones.
A relative has a copy of a marriage certificate which takes me back a generation and possibly two. It looks like John's father was William a colliery overman and possibly from Breconshire although that's not 100%. His father may have been an Enoch Jones from Brecs but that needs looking into further.
It seems John's wife's Sarah was a Griffiths she seems to have had a brother Thomas who was a witness at the wedding. Her father was also named John, an Ostler and he was born in Montgomery.
It gives me a little more to go on anyway after being stuck for a long time.

Perhaps there are some uncommon forenames, like Enoch, that could help you research family with common surnames? Welsh families seem to have had strong naming conventions into the 20th century. They are a little different from patterns in other parts of Britain. I haven't done much research in Breconshire and Montgomeryshire, but in the north and the south-west these conventions have been really useful in getting back several generations.

I went back to some Williams and Griffiths brick walls recently and got back another generation or so on both lines using family naming patterns to choose between possible lines. As an example, my grandmother had an uncle who died in the 1960s; his forenames were Henry Rees. I had thought he might have been named for a nonconformist preacher of that name that his father would probably have known - but I wasn't convinced. We traced back saveral possible lines for his mother's Williams family and eventually found his great-great grandfather Rice (or Rees) Williams b. 1760 and probably a Henry in the previous generation. Our Henry Rees had (at least) six siblings and we can trace all their names in previous generations. Rees is still a middle name for part of the family.

[rms2]

I wish we had more Welsh y-dna results available, like extended haplotypes or (dream, dream, dream) NGS test results.

I have a couple of close str matches with men with the Welsh surname Beddoes who were born in Shropshire close to the Welsh border. I'd like to see more of that to find out just how common my cluster is in that area and what surnames are involved.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbU3zdAgiX8

[[email protected]]

I wish we had more Welsh y-dna results available, like extended haplotypes or (dream, dream, dream) NGS test results.

I have a couple of close str matches with men with the Welsh surname Beddoes who were born in Shropshire close to the Welsh border. I'd like to see more of that to find out just how common my cluster is in that area and what surnames are involved.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbU3zdAgiX8

RMS2,
Did you join the Cymru-Wales DNA ftdna Project?

Although it’s not much good to me as I ended up being R1a...:behindsofa:
I did the Big Y, but have zero matches.

[rms2]

Yes, I'm in the Cymru-Wales DNA Project and in the Welsh Patronymic Surnames Project, although I have not looked at either recently.

If I had Bill Gates-type money, I would y-dna test every man in Wales and publish the results.

[JohnHowellsTyrfro]

Perhaps there are some uncommon forenames, like Enoch, that could help you research family with common surnames? Welsh families seem to have had strong naming conventions into the 20th century. They are a little different from patterns in other parts of Britain. I haven't done much research in Breconshire and Montgomeryshire, but in the north and the south-west these conventions have been really useful in getting back several generations.

I went back to some Williams and Griffiths brick walls recently and got back another generation or so on both lines using family naming patterns to choose between possible lines. As an example, my grandmother had an uncle who died in the 1960s; his forenames were Henry Rees. I had thought he might have been named for a nonconformist preacher of that name that his father would probably have known - but I wasn't convinced. We traced back saveral possible lines for his mother's Williams family and eventually found his great-great grandfather Rice (or Rees) Williams b. 1760 and probably a Henry in the previous generation. Our Henry Rees had (at least) six siblings and we can trace all their names in previous generations. Rees is still a middle name for part of the family.

I have a number of instances in my family where surnames from the female side have been passed down to male descendants. I understand this was often done in Wales by giving a middle name but I have some first names also. Examples
Heywood Lloyd Howells
James Clee Lloyd
Lloyd Howells

On my direct paternal ancestors since the mid 1600's only 4 male names feature William, Henry or John (including Heywood once). I'm John, my father was John, my great grandfather was John ... Lack of imagination or what? :)
Of course there are other male names of siblings but the same Christian names tend to feature over and over.

[JohnHowellsTyrfro]

Yes, I'm in the Cymru-Wales DNA Project and in the Welsh Patronymic Surnames Project, although I have not looked at either recently.

If I had Bill Gates-type money, I would y-dna test every man in Wales and publish the results.

Is that compulsory or would bribes be involved? :)

[rms2]

Is that compulsory or would bribes be involved? :)

Bribes. I would pay for the right to publish the haplotype. I am definitely a capitalist.

[JohnHowellsTyrfro]

Because some names were so common in Wales the use of nicknames was widespread, although it seems to be dying out in this area now. In my own maternal family they were known as Jones Cider because supposedly they used to make it. Surnames like Jones would be linked to a place, house or farm or occupation (clue that's where my username comes from roughly translated Vale House).
In some predominantly Welsh Regiments a soldier would be referred to by his surname and part of his service number like Jones 376 as was shown in the film "Zulu".
This goes back a long way. Sir Dafydd ap Llewelyn ap Hywel from Brecon who fought with Henry V at Agincourt and died there supposedly protecting the King, was commonly known as Davy Gam, "Gam" suggesting he was lame or had some physical impediment.
The surname Vaughan come from Fychan (pronounced Vuchan) which means small but also junior or younger.
Maybe surnames weren't as important in Wales because of the "additions" that added to the identity of the owner.

[Phoebe Watts]

I have a number of instances in my family where surnames from the female side have been passed down to male descendants. I understand this was often done in Wales by giving a middle name but I have some first names also. Examples
Heywood Lloyd Howells
James Clee Lloyd
Lloyd Howells

On my direct paternal ancestors since the mid 1600's only 4 male names feature William, Henry or John (including Heywood once). I'm John, my father was John, my great grandfather was John ... Lack of imagination or what? :)
Of course there are other male names of siblings but the same Christian names tend to feature over and over.

Yes, that's right. Most of the families in my family tree named the eldest son after his maternal grandfather at least as late as the middle or end of the 19th century. In my Flintshire line, the eldest son was given his mother's maiden name or a maternal grandmother's maiden name if it was more appropriate. These are names like Lewis or Griffith or Edward, so you can't always tell that that they are a "surname" being used as a forename. It is just that the pattern comes clear and once you have the pattern you can trace back. As you say, it was common to give a child his maternal grandfather's forename and surname as forenames. My examples include Richard Lloyd Roberts and William Jones Davies but this was later - from the 1870s onwards.

I suppose that even a very limited number of names can lead you to a pattern? And you might be able to use those other siblings names to go round your brick wall rather than through it.

[msmarjoribanks]

When are we going to get a Welsh DNA Atlas?

I was watching a video on the Appalachians earlier today. Mention was made of Welsh immigration to the Appalachians, but then the subject turned to the Scots-Irish and that was it: the Welsh were done.

We always seem to get the short end of the stick.

I have relatives with potentially Welsh names from Jackson and Gallia, Ohio, surrounded by lots of others with likely Welsh names. Am brickwalled around 1800 on that line, but I bought this book (haven't read it yet): Calvinists Incorporated: Welsh Immigrants on Ohio's Industrial Frontier (http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/C/bo3639813.html), which is about those counties and looks potentially interesting or helpful.

Gallia and Jackson are in the southeastern bit of Ohio, which is why I thought of this.

[msmarjoribanks]

Too true, I have been saying this for years!

Part of the problem is that Wales is a small country. 3 million people and 12 million sheep and it is often just seen as an extension of England. A lot of people simply aren't aware about the history and the language, etc.

Really it needs one of the Welsh universities to do a really thorough research project, somewhere like Bangor or Aberywstwyth but these places may not have genetics departments or research labs, so who knows.

Reminds me that one of my Welsh ancestors naturalized in 1849, and gave a ton of excellent information in the accompanying affidavit, including the town he was born in and immigrated from and where and when he came into the US (Boston, 1847). The other (for whatever reason, as he came around 1850) not until 1880, when it was more standardized. He is identified as Owen Humphreys, a native of Wales, England. (Goes on to renounce all loyalty to Victoria, Queen of Great Britain.)

[msmarjoribanks]

I wish we had more Welsh y-dna results available, like extended haplotypes or (dream, dream, dream) NGS test results.

I have a couple of close str matches with men with the Welsh surname Beddoes who were born in Shropshire close to the Welsh border. I'd like to see more of that to find out just how common my cluster is in that area and what surnames are involved.

I've spent a lot of time with Shropshire parish records (mostly Diddlebury and Munslow), and there indeed are lots of Welsh or potentially Welsh names (I actually never thought about the derivation of Price before finding that a relative married a Prees which quickly became Price and was of course annoyingly common). As mentioned above, that's where my patrilineal line of Joneses comes from, although they were in Shropshire and so using Jones as a set surname since at least the 17th century.

Don't know how useful my Jones line would be to a Welsh study due to being the apparently uncommon DF63 branch of L21, and having NO close matches (the closest BigY ones so far are from Spanish-speaking countries and the Netherlands, but none of those are close at all), but I would be really curious whether there are patterns of DF63 in Wales.

[Phoebe Watts]

I have relatives with potentially Welsh names from Jackson and Gallia, Ohio, surrounded by lots of others with likely Welsh names. Am brickwalled around 1800 on that line, but I bought this book (haven't read it yet): Calvinists Incorporated: Welsh Immigrants on Ohio's Industrial Frontier (http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/C/bo3639813.html), which is about those counties and looks potentially interesting or helpful.

Gallia and Jackson are in the southeastern bit of Ohio, which is why I thought of this.

I have looked at those counties in the past. You are right that there was a lot of Welsh influence; I found the following in the Weekly Mail (a newspaper published in Cardiff) in 1900:

"Referring to our notice of Welsh-Americans, a correspondent writes: "It is interesting to know that the descendants of many thousands of Cardiganites now inhabit the counties of Gallia and Jackson, in America, and what is of equal interest is that the characteristics of Cardigan are also displayed in those counties for more doctors, teachers, and particularly preachers, are to be found there, or have been raised there, than in any other settlement of its size in the United States.""

[JohnHowellsTyrfro]

Yes, that's right. Most of the families in my family tree named the eldest son after his maternal grandfather at least as late as the middle or end of the 19th century. In my Flintshire line, the eldest son was given his mother's maiden name or a maternal grandmother's maiden name if it was more appropriate. These are names like Lewis or Griffith or Edward, so you can't always tell that that they are a "surname" being used as a forename. It is just that the pattern comes clear and once you have the pattern you can trace back. As you say, it was common to give a child his maternal grandfather's forename and surname as forenames. My examples include Richard Lloyd Roberts and William Jones Davies but this was later - from the 1870s onwards.

I suppose that even a very limited number of names can lead you to a pattern? And you might be able to use those other siblings names to go round your brick wall rather than through it.

Yes you are right, male first and middle names can give a possible clue to unknown maiden names which may not be recorded in census documents. I specifically went looking for Heywood as a surname which was my grandfather's first name and I found it in a census record in the same property as the Lloyds on the female side. Almost certainly a female relative of a Heywood who married a Lloyd.

[JohnHowellsTyrfro]

I've spent a lot of time with Shropshire parish records (mostly Diddlebury and Munslow), and there indeed are lots of Welsh or potentially Welsh names (I actually never thought about the derivation of Price before finding that a relative married a Prees which quickly became Price and was of course annoyingly common). As mentioned above, that's where my patrilineal line of Joneses comes from, although they were in Shropshire and so using Jones as a set surname since at least the 17th century.

Don't know how useful my Jones line would be to a Welsh study due to being the apparently uncommon DF63 branch of L21, and having NO close matches (the closest BigY ones so far are from Spanish-speaking countries and the Netherlands, but none of those are close at all), but I would be really curious whether there are patterns of DF63 in Wales.

I know more about West Herefordshire where my paternal ancestors were from. I've read quite a bit about it, it was very Welsh in terms of names and use of the patronymic naming system ( up to the early 1600's) and was even substantially Welsh speaking up to the 19th century. The Welsh Church Authorities were the responsible body. Welsh measurements were used in agriculture, a Welsh acre being substantially larger than an English one. Many place names and field names have a Welsh language origin. I would say that near the border it was probably more Welsh than English.
The Clee surname in my family is from the Clee Hills in Shropshire.
A E Housman " A Shropshire Lad" (part)
"From Clee to heaven the beacon burns,
The shires have seen it plain,
From north and south the sign returns
And beacons burn again.

Look left, look right, the hills are bright,
The dales are light between,
Because 'tis fifty years to-night
That God has saved the Queen."

[JohnHowellsTyrfro]

I've spent a lot of time with Shropshire parish records (mostly Diddlebury and Munslow), and there indeed are lots of Welsh or potentially Welsh names (I actually never thought about the derivation of Price before finding that a relative married a Prees which quickly became Price and was of course annoyingly common). As mentioned above, that's where my patrilineal line of Joneses comes from, although they were in Shropshire and so using Jones as a set surname since at least the 17th century.

Don't know how useful my Jones line would be to a Welsh study due to being the apparently uncommon DF63 branch of L21, and having NO close matches (the closest BigY ones so far are from Spanish-speaking countries and the Netherlands, but none of those are close at all), but I would be really curious whether there are patterns of DF63 in Wales.

I wouldn't discount the relevance of the DNA just because it doesn't fit the "expected" pattern. I've come across quite a few people with Welsh Ancestry with DNA you might not expect to "fit". It's all part of our story, who knows, Roman Era, early traders or something else? The more detail/results we can find, the more we will know.
I also come across plenty of people who have no close matches in Wales but I think that says more about the lack of Welsh test results than anything else.

[Webb]

Yes you are right, male first and middle names can give a possible clue to unknown maiden names which may not be recorded in census documents. I specifically went looking for Heywood as a surname which was my grandfather's first name and I found it in a census record in the same property as the Lloyds on the female side. Almost certainly a female relative of a Heywood who married a Lloyd.

This is a very common tradition with my dad's family. So when we named my son, we named him Liam Douglas Webb, as Douglas is his mother's maiden name. I am not sure if we would have made the same choice had her maiden name been something awful. But as it happens, it gives his name some strength.

[Webb]

Because some names were so common in Wales the use of nicknames was widespread, although it seems to be dying out in this area now. In my own maternal family they were known as Jones Cider because supposedly they used to make it. Surnames like Jones would be linked to a place, house or farm or occupation (clue that's where my username comes from roughly translated Vale House).
In some predominantly Welsh Regiments a soldier would be referred to by his surname and part of his service number like Jones 376 as was shown in the film "Zulu".
This goes back a long way. Sir Dafydd ap Llewelyn ap Hywel from Brecon who fought with Henry V at Agincourt and died there supposedly protecting the King, was commonly known as Davy Gam, "Gam" suggesting he was lame or had some physical impediment.
The surname Vaughan come from Fychan (pronounced Vuchan) which means small but also junior or younger.
Maybe surnames weren't as important in Wales because of the "additions" that added to the identity of the owner.

I immediately thought of the movie, "The Englishman Who Went up Hill But Came Down a Mountain". Morgan the Goat, Thomas Two.

[[email protected]]

Yeah some of these names come to mind, like Evans the Milk. And Jones the Butcher, etc I heard many variations when growing up in Llanelli in the 70s.

[TigerMW]

This is a very common tradition with my dad's family. So when we named my son, we named him Liam Douglas Webb, as Douglas is his mother's maiden name. I am not sure if we would have made the same choice had her maiden name been something awful. But as it happens, it gives his name some strength.

My father's lineage is Cambro-Norman Irish which could be considered Welsh-Irish. They intermarried with several Norman and Gaelic families. The given name Edmund shows up repeatedly in Walsh pedigrees in that region. It turns out this name was inserted because of a particularly important family in their region - the Butler's. The maiden Butler women or at least a particular woman brought her father or grandfather's given name along to a Walsh son (and descendants).

[JohnHowellsTyrfro]

My father's lineage is Cambro-Norman Irish which could be considered Welsh-Irish. They intermarried with several Norman and Gaelic families. The given name Edmund shows up repeatedly in Walsh pedigrees in that region. It turns out this name was inserted because of a particularly important family in their region - the Butler's. The maiden Butler women or at least a particular woman brought her father or grandfather's given name along to a Walsh son (and descendants).

I understand the Walsh surname could mean Welsh (derived from the word for foreign) similar to other surnames Wallace and Welch.

[TigerMW]

I understand the Walsh surname could mean Welsh (derived from the word for foreign) similar to other surnames Wallace and Welch.

There is no way to prove a direct link all the way back to 1170 AD but the genes and geographies support the tradition at least as of general migration from South Wales related to the Cambro-Normans.

There are many types of Walsh's but our family tradition is we are of the Walsh of the Mountain clan which was founded by Philip Walsh. Other names written were Gualensi, Welshman, Breathnach, Branagh. As you can see the surname variants were general and I'm not sure how rigidly they were past down. Really, is a geographically descriptive surname.

In the U.S. we find some of the Walsh types subgroup with people surnamed Welch or Welsh as well.

As you may well, a Howell Walsh is a key figure for whom the ancestral home is supposed to be named - Castle Hale, in the Ballyhale area.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballyhale

Standing your ground against Cromwell wasn't such a good idea.
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~walsh/gif/Castle_Howel_ruins_1829.jpg
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~walsh/gif/castlehale_1900.jpg

[JohnHowellsTyrfro]

There is no way to prove a direct link all the way back to 1170 AD but the genes and geographies support the tradition at least as of general migration from South Wales related to the Cambro-Normans.

There are many types of Walsh's but our family tradition is we are of the Walsh of the Mountain clan which was founded by Philip Walsh. Other names written were Gualensi, Welshman, Breathnach, Branagh. As you can see the surname variants were general and I'm not sure how rigidly they were past down. Really, is a geographically descriptive surname.

In the U.S. we find some of the Walsh types subgroup with people surnamed Welch or Welsh as well.

As you may well, a Howell Walsh is a key figure for whom the ancestral home is supposed to be named - Castle Hale, in the Ballyhale area.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballyhale

Standing your ground against Cromwell wasn't such a good idea.
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~walsh/gif/Castle_Howel_ruins_1829.jpg
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~walsh/gif/castlehale_1900.jpg

No I didn't know that.
Howell or Howells could have Welsh or Breton/Norman associations from the Welsh Hywel or the Breton Hoel. There was also a King Hoel of Brittany who appeared in the tales of King Arthur which may have made the fore-name popular amongst the Normans and their allies. There was a King Huwel in Cornwall too.
Actually Howells isn't that common a name in Wales. It is also found in parts of East Anglia because of the Breton settlement I understand.
I haven't found the origin of my own name as yet but paternal ancestry was in the Welsh Borders back to the 1600's and there was fairly significant Breton settlement in Herefordshire and Gloucestershire.

Of course names can have a lot to do with whatever was local custom or practice not always related to ancestry.

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No I didn't know that.
Howell or Howells could have Welsh or Breton/Norman associations from the Welsh Hywel or the Breton Hoel. There was also a King Hoel of Brittany who appeared in the tales of King Arthur which may have made the fore-name popular amongst the Normans and their allies. There was a King Huwel in Cornwall too.
Actually Howells isn't that common a name in Wales. It is also found in parts of East Anglia because of the Breton settlement I understand.
I haven't found the origin of my own name as yet but paternal ancestry was in the Welsh Borders back to the 1600's and there was fairly significant Breton settlement in Herefordshire and Gloucestershire.

Of course names can have a lot to do with whatever was local custom or practice not always related to ancestry.

I had a family friend who married a man from Shropshire/Herefordshire, around there, whose surname was Howls, I am unsure if the surname is related.?

[Phoebe Watts]

My father's lineage is Cambro-Norman Irish which could be considered Welsh-Irish. They intermarried with several Norman and Gaelic families. The given name Edmund shows up repeatedly in Walsh pedigrees in that region. It turns out this name was inserted because of a particularly important family in their region - the Butler's. The maiden Butler women or at least a particular woman brought her father or grandfather's given name along to a Walsh son (and descendants).

That's interesting. I wasn't really familiar with the term Cambro-Norman; it seems to be preferred by Irish historians over the term Anglo-Norman. The Welsh History I have on my bookshelf only uses the term Cambro-Norman once, in a quote.

It seems unlikely that the Anglo-Norman Marcher Lords would have carried Welsh naming traditions to Ireland although I suppose it is possible that members of their retinues, or later settlers could have done so. The traditions arise from the old Welsh laws.

[JohnHowellsTyrfro]

I had a family friend who married a man from Shropshire/Herefordshire, around there, whose surname was Howls, I am unsure if the surname is related.?

Yes I believe it is. I think Hool does also. They all come from a forename of course.

[JohnHowellsTyrfro]

That's interesting. I wasn't really familiar with the term Cambro-Norman; it seems to be preferred by Irish historians over the term Anglo-Norman. The Welsh History I have on my bookshelf only uses the term Cambro-Norman once, in a quote.

It seems unlikely that the Anglo-Norman Marcher Lords would have carried Welsh naming traditions to Ireland although I suppose it is possible that members of their retinues, or later settlers could have done so. The traditions arise from the old Welsh laws.

I believe that quite a few of the early Normans in Wales and the borders quickly married into significant local families mainly to cement alliances and acquire lands through marriage. The Normans seemed particularly adept at fitting themselves into local cultures.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjTkIK-k5jYAhWFbVAKHQIEAsMQFghRMAY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fvlib.iue.it%2Fcarrie%2Ftexts%2Fca rrie_books%2Fnelson%2F7.html&usg=AOvVaw12XejnqiiLVFCXc_eL6vHf

[Phoebe Watts]

I believe that quite a few of the early Normans in Wales and the borders quickly married into significant local families mainly to cement alliances and acquire lands through marriage. The Normans seemed particularly adept at fitting themselves into local cultures.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjTkIK-k5jYAhWFbVAKHQIEAsMQFghRMAY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fvlib.iue.it%2Fcarrie%2Ftexts%2Fca rrie_books%2Fnelson%2F7.html&usg=AOvVaw12XejnqiiLVFCXc_eL6vHf

Indeed. I have a number of Norman ancestors in family lines that became thoroughly Welsh over several generations. They seem to have been able to find their way around the laws and conventions of their times.

The story of the descendants of Nest is particularly interesting. Apparently her grandson Gerald de Barri was considered too Welsh to be Bishop of Saint Davids. I wouldn't expect to find much evidence of Welsh naming conventions in those families though

[avalon]

That's interesting. I wasn't really familiar with the term Cambro-Norman; it seems to be preferred by Irish historians over the term Anglo-Norman. The Welsh History I have on my bookshelf only uses the term Cambro-Norman once, in a quote.

It seems unlikely that the Anglo-Norman Marcher Lords would have carried Welsh naming traditions to Ireland although I suppose it is possible that members of their retinues, or later settlers could have done so. The traditions arise from the old Welsh laws.

Yes, I would echo that. Most of the accounts I have read by Welsh or English historians refer to an 'Anglo-Norman' or 'Norman' invasion of Ireland. 'Cambro-Norman' seems preferred by Irish historians.

I think it's an interesting period, particularly the accounts of Nest and of course her illustrious grandson Gerald of Wales.

I'm no expert but the impression I get is that whilst there was a Native Welsh element to the invasion of Ireland it shouldn't be overplayed. To me, it still seems primarily like a Norman invasion.

Of course there are references to Welsh archers being used and yes, of course, some of the leaders were part-Welsh through their descent from Nest but looking at the names quoted at this site, most of the people have very obvious Norman and French sounding names, the exception being 'Walsh.'

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/invasion.htm