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leonardo
03-01-2015, 01:53 AM
From Łukasz Lubicz Łapiński at the R1a-M458 facebook page:
"...and here we have "Revolution" result !!!!
We were waiting for another Y2395* result, and after BIG Y sequencing we've got .... early split of M458 branch.
Brother clade of M458 is splitting 2-3 SNPs earlier!!!"

3882

Mandelboy
03-01-2015, 06:22 PM
From Łukasz Lubicz Łapiński at the R1a-M458 facebook page:
"...and here we have "Revolution" result !!!!
We were waiting for another Y2395* result, and after BIG Y sequencing we've got .... early split of M458 branch.
Brother clade of M458 is splitting 2-3 SNPs earlier!!!"

3882

I cannot find these message there (maybe one needs a Facebook account to read it).
But I understand this newsflash so, that some SNP was found common to Y2395/Z284 and M458 branches but not shared by Z280 branch.
This would indeed resolve the long standing Z280/M458/Z284 node.

newtoboard
03-01-2015, 07:58 PM
I cannot find these message there (maybe one needs a Facebook account to read it).
But I understand this newsflash so, that some SNP was found common to Y2395/Z284 and M458 branches but not shared by Z280 branch.
This would indeed resolve the long standing Z280/M458/Z284 node.

I read about that a while back. If true that would indeed be a surprise. Almost everybody would have had M458 and Z280 oth originate closer to each other in Eastern Corded Ware, with closer linguistic connections and more shared SNP's.

Also what do you think of the rare M458 branches that have been found in the Caucasus?

leonardo
03-01-2015, 08:02 PM
I cannot find these message there (maybe one needs a Facebook account to read it).
But I understand this newsflash so, that some SNP was found common to Y2395/Z284 and M458 branches but not shared by Z280 branch.
This would indeed resolve the long standing Z280/M458/Z284 node.

The group is private. You have to join.

Generalissimo
03-01-2015, 09:56 PM
I'm not sure what Lukasz is trying to say there. Can anyone give some more details?

lgmayka
03-01-2015, 11:38 PM
But I understand this newsflash so, that some SNP was found common to Y2395/Z284 and M458 branches but not shared by Z280 branch.
This would indeed resolve the long standing Z280/M458/Z284 node.
No, that's not what he means. Kit 44591 was expected (by Łukasz, not by me) to be Y2395+ . Instead, he turned out to be PF6161+ PF7525+ M458- . In other words, he splits the M458 level (http://yfull.com/tree/R-M458/) into the older PF6161 and the younger M458.

Thus, R1a-PF6161* is Polish, and R1a-M458* is also Polish. Early offshoots of CTS11962 and L260 (from before their primary expansion period) also appear to be mostly Polish, Czech, or Slovak.

Mandelboy
03-02-2015, 12:11 AM
Thanks for the clarification. From this cited sentence it was not clear that the person was just assumed to be Y2395+.

Regarding the M458/Z280/Z284 node:
At
http://evolbio.ut.ee/chrY/
the vcf files of the following participants may be interesting to compare with:
GS000035455 Z284+ YP1166+ YP1167+
GS000035474 Z284+ Z287+
GS000035500 M458+ L1029+
and anyone of the many Z280+ examples:e.g.
GS000035471 Z280+ CTS3402+ L366+ YP346+ Y347+
GS000035487 Z280+ CTS3402+ Y33+ Y2902+
GS000035492 Z280+ CTS3402+ Y237+
GS000018431 Z280+ CTS3402+ YP554+
GS000035490 Z280+ Z92+ Y4459+

I was able to look only for known SNP

leonardo
03-02-2015, 01:01 AM
What do you think this says about M458 (as well as this new branch) when it comes to its origins? As most of you know, many have speculated M458 originated in Poland or its immediate environs.

Artmar
03-02-2015, 01:32 PM
What do you think this says about M458 (as well as this new branch) when it comes to its origins? As most of you know, many have speculated M458 originated in Poland or its immediate environs.
I think it was more easterly than Z280 in the past and possibly less important. It was one of a Corded Ware lineages and took part in cultures that evolved from Corded Ware - especially Trzciniec Culture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Balto-Slavic_lng.png

I think that Z280 was present (and dominant?) in most zones of Trzciniec but pre-M458 and early M548's were encompassing mostly Eastern Trzciniec and possibly Komarov. And that's how some part of old M458 clades could've ended in the Caucasus (modern population - Kara-Nogays from Dagestan, mostly) - it's possibly a result of some contacts with an early nomads, non-Turkic obviously.

Some time after Western Trzciniec was transformed into a Lusatian Culture under unfluences of proto-Celts(?), it was dispersed by something disastrous and replaced mostly with Germanic speakers. Also other zones of Trzciniec horizon weren't spared, that's why not so much M458 lines remained, let alone pre-M458 ones. Shortly after, population started rebuilding process and two lines under M458, CTS11962 and L260 were particularly successful. They expanded, as a Slavs, from 6th century onwards, when being too numerous to find a place in a homeland.

That's my scenario. I hope it will be proven sometimes, to one degree or another.

lgmayka
03-02-2015, 02:52 PM
As most of you know, many have speculated M458 originated in Poland or its immediate environs.
(Slight exaggeration for emphasis)
But that is not the "conventional wisdom," according to one poster in this forum. She asserts, as if proven fact, the Total Population Replacement hypothesis: That Poland was entirely Germanic-speaking until the 5th century, when all those Germanics simply loaded up the wagons and moved west or southwest, leaving all of Poland "empty." A small Slavic tribe near Kyiv, she continues, then multiplied like rabbits, occupying half a continent (including Poland) within a single century. Thus, according to her hypothesis, Poland had zero R1a-M458 (or R1a-Z280 or I2a-CTS5966 ?) until the 5th century.

Again, this is a slight--but only slight--exaggeration of the poster's Total Population Replacement hypothesis, which she claims to be the "scientific consensus." Here is a typical example of her views (http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?p=7918#p7918): "What is now Poland was virtually empty when the Slavs arrived, apart from Pomerania." In the same post, she declares in advance that DNA evidence will not sway her views: "The Y-DNA phylogeny in present-day Poles cannot tell us when their ancestors arrived in Poland."

At one point, she did concede that a few original denizens might have survived the brutal onslaught from (what is now) Kyiv. She failed to explain how or why this little band of Slavs, docile pasturers and farmers for millenia, suddenly became an army of ferocious continent-conquering warriors.

Artmar
03-02-2015, 10:36 PM
@lgmayka
I dislike extreme allochtochtonic theories as much, as I dislike extreme autochtonic variants.

However, even if we assume genetic continuity on our lands since Roman Period (so actually even earlier), how it complies with age and phylogeny of R1a-M458, some certain R1a-Z280 clades and I2-CTS5966 ones? How it agrees with archeology, reports of ancient people and other data?

About a year ago or two I was quite emotional about this. But now I think, that without enough material, we can't really prove one hypothesis or another.
Artifacts suggest Germanic character of cultures that lived in most of present-day Poland. What will the genetics suggest?

Generalissimo
03-02-2015, 11:08 PM
A large scale population replacement in Poland during the early Middle Ages already looks crazy.

There's no way we can describe present-day Polish population structure with a migration from around what is now Kiev during the 6th century.

lgmayka
03-03-2015, 12:36 AM
However, even if we assume genetic continuity on our lands since Roman Period (so actually even earlier), how it complies with age and phylogeny of R1a-M458, some certain R1a-Z280 clades and I2-CTS5966 ones? How it agrees with archeology, reports of ancient people and other data?
...
But now I think, that without enough material, we can't really prove one hypothesis or another.
Artifacts suggest Germanic character of cultures that lived in most of present-day Poland. What will the genetics suggest?
1) Only ancient DNA can be proof--and even then, one can debate whether isolated aDNA examples are representative of the total ancient population (both elites and laborers). That is why it is foolish to cite "consensus" as a way to cut off debate and disparage those who disagree.

2) Neither DNA nor archaeology can, in themselves, tell us precisely what language(s) ancient people spoke or understood. For example, the elites might have spoken one language and the laborers another; or the laborers might have spoken various local dialects until a managing class chose one dialect to be the lingua franca. Let us recall that until rather recently, not all Frenchmen spoke Parisian.

3) Major demographic change clearly did occur in Central-Eastern Europe in the so-called Migration Period. It is clear that various Y-DNA subclades expanded rapidly around that time.

4) One can argue that western Belarus and western Ukraine are undersampled even with respect to Poland (which is itself undersampled with respect to Germany, which in turn is undersampled with respect to the British Isles, etc.). So the discovery of early Y-DNA offshoot clades among Poles east of the Vistula and near the Carpathians, does not rule out the possibility of similar early offshoots in adjacent western Belarus and western Ukraine. Nevertheless, we have to form hypotheses based on the data we have, not the data we don't have.

Brent.B
03-04-2015, 11:43 PM
So this discovery seems to support the autochthonous theory of Slavs in Poland?




2) Neither DNA nor archaeology can, in themselves, tell us precisely what language(s) ancient people spoke or understood. For example, the elites might have spoken one language and the laborers another; or the laborers might have spoken various local dialects until a managing class chose one dialect to be the lingua franca. Let us recall that until rather recently, not all Frenchmen spoke Parisian.

3) Major demographic change clearly did occur in Central-Eastern Europe in the so-called Migration Period. It is clear that various Y-DNA subclades expanded rapidly around that time.


For number #2, How realistic do you see the possibility that what is now Poland was Germanic speaking up until the 6th century, and then culturally/linguistically "converted" to a Slavic Language?

And for #3, Would you say that L1029/L260 are as a whole representative of the Slavic demographic explosion, or would you say that only some haplogroups downstream (such as YP263 and YP254 etc) are?

Thanks!

lgmayka
03-05-2015, 12:20 AM
So this discovery seems to support the autochthonous theory of Slavs in Poland?
That may depend on how you define Slav. IMHO, evidence supports this theory propounded by Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Proto-Slavic#Proto-Slavic_and_Common_Slavic_.28c._400_.E2.80.94_1000_ AD.29), according to which Common Slavic was essentially one specific Balto-Slavic dialect that somehow gained currency as the lingua franca across most of the old Balto-Slavic territory and even beyond.
---
Literary and archaeological evidence suggests that eastern European barbaricum in the 6th century was linguistically and culturally diverse,[19][20] somewhat going against the idea of a large demographic expansion of an ethnically homogeneous Slavic people. Instead, Proto-Slavic might have been lingua franca among the various barbarian ethnicities that emerged in the Danubian, Carpathian and steppe regions of Europe after the fall of the Hun Empire,[21] such as the Sklaveni, Antes, and Avars. Cultural contacts between emerging societal elites might have led to the "language of one agricultural community spread(ing) to other agricultural societies."[15] This has been substantiated archaeologically, seen by the development of networks which spread of "Slavic fibulae," artifacts representing social status and group identity.[22] Horace Lunt argues that only as a lingua franca could Slavic have remained mutually intelligible over vast areas of Europe, and that its disintegration into different dialects occurred after the collapse of the Avar khanate.[23]
---

The original speakers of that one specific dialect might have lived in (what is now) Ukraine or Belarus. But that does not mean that the one tribe multiplied like rabbits to conquer and occupy half a continent. Much of the population expansion seems to have begun in (what is now) southern and eastern Poland, judging from modern Y-DNA patterns.


For number #2, How realistic do you see the possibility that what is now Poland was Germanic speaking up until the 6th century, and then culturally/linguistically "converted" to a Slavic Language?

It seems unlikely to me that an entire nation of Germanic-speaking farmers would switch to Slavic, and even less likely that an entire nation of Germanic-speaking farmers would abandon the entire country en masse, leaving it "empty" or "deserted" for Slavs.

If pressed for a hypothesis, I would suggest that Germanic speakers in the region were perhaps more like a dominating elite. The Huns coveted that same status, and may have driven the Germanic elite westward, possibly with the help of a Slavic tribe as a "junior partner" who interfaced with the local farmers and eventually standardized their language.


And for #3, Would you say that L1029/L260 are as a whole representative of the Slavic demographic explosion, or would you say that only some haplogroups downstream (such as YP263 and YP254 etc) are?
Many Slavic clades, in multiple haplogroups, appear to have expanded rapidly roughly 1500-2000 years ago; but not to the same degree, and not all. Take a look, for example, at YFull's M458 haplotree (http://yfull.com/tree/R-M458/). It's a small and not necessarily representative sample, to be sure, but it gives a flavor of what must have happened. YP515 within CTS11962, and YP1337 within L260, don't look nearly as prolific as the bulk of L1029 and YP254.

newtoboard
03-05-2015, 12:48 AM
Igmayka, are you suggesting there was once more linguistic diversity among R1a rich groups in Central Europe that was wiped out by Slavic? If so that seems likely. It seems ridiculous to assume R1a in Corded Ware only led to Balto-Slavic given the horizon stretched from Norway/the Netherlands to the Urals. We don't know what L664 or Z284 spoke for instance.

And for that matter we don't have much info on the original language of Timber Grave, proto Cimmerian cultures,and Abashevo. It might be possible something similar happened on the steppe in which Iranian ended up being the lingua franca of the steppe and wiped out the old diversity.

Brent.B
03-05-2015, 01:54 AM
Many Slavic clades, in multiple haplogroups, appear to have expanded rapidly roughly 1500-2000 years ago; but not to the same degree, and not all. Take a look, for example, at YFull's M458 haplotree (http://yfull.com/tree/R-M458/). It's a small and not necessarily representative sample, to be sure, but it gives a flavor of what must have happened. YP515 within CTS11962, and YP1337 within L260, don't look nearly as prolific as the bulk of L1029 and YP254.

Thank you, lgmayka, for the explanation of your views. They are very interesting.

The reason why I ask about L1029 is that I am L1029* (tested with Yfull). The TRMCA of L1029 is about 2100 years according to YFull, so I wonder if some of the subclades of L1029 spread before the Slavic expansion (whatever that means)... with the majority of subclades existing today having later participating in that expansion?

in other words, is L1029 and ALL of its subclades likely Slavic in origin?

lgmayka
03-05-2015, 02:08 AM
The reason why I ask about L1029 is that I am L1029* (tested with Yfull). The TRMCA of L1029 is about 2100 years according to YFull, so I wonder if some of the subclades of L1029 spread before the Slavic expansion (whatever that means)... with the majority of subclades existing today having later participating in that expansion?
That is indeed my guess, based on the meager sampling so far. Lineages listed as L1029* at this point probably did not participate in the Slavic expansion, for whatever reason.

lyakh
03-15-2017, 12:14 AM
I think it was more easterly than Z280 in the past and possibly less important. It was one of a Corded Ware lineages and took part in cultures that evolved from Corded Ware - especially Trzciniec Culture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Balto-Slavic_lng.png

I think that Z280 was present (and dominant?) in most zones of Trzciniec but pre-M458 and early M548's were encompassing mostly Eastern Trzciniec and possibly Komarov. And that's how some part of old M458 clades could've ended in the Caucasus (modern population - Kara-Nogays from Dagestan, mostly) - it's possibly a result of some contacts with an early nomads, non-Turkic obviously.

Some time after Western Trzciniec was transformed into a Lusatian Culture under unfluences of proto-Celts(?), it was dispersed by something disastrous and replaced mostly with Germanic speakers. Also other zones of Trzciniec horizon weren't spared, that's why not so much M458 lines remained, let alone pre-M458 ones. Shortly after, population started rebuilding process and two lines under M458, CTS11962 and L260 were particularly successful. They expanded, as a Slavs, from 6th century onwards, when being too numerous to find a place in a homeland.

That's my scenario. I hope it will be proven sometimes, to one degree or another.
I also think that M458 was rather not present in what is today Poland before Slavic expansion in early medieval times. But it is interesting why M458 is so popular among West Slavs and not so much popular among East Slavs (although quite probably M458 comes from areas which are East Slavic now). It is possible that M458 was present in proto-Slavic population (as some lineages under Z280 - I think that Z92 could be not present among early Slavs at all because it is not so popular among West and South Slavs - but CTS1211 or at least some of its subclades (especially CTS3402) may be purely Slavic in origin and absent among Balts during expansion of early Slavs, but I do not exclude the possibility of presence of some CTS3402 among Balts). I think that M458 (especially two most popular subclades of it - CTS11962 and L260) was purely Slavic haplogroup in early medieval times. Maybe M458 comes from Kiev culture? I think that I-CTS10228 (I2-Din) also comes from early Slavs, although it is not so popular among Lechitic Slavs.

I think that ALL of L1029 comes from Slavic expansion. It is a young haplogroup (TMRCA about 2200 years, similar to TMRCA of I-CTS10228) and it correlates well with Slavic expansion. R1a-L1029 expanded suddenly about 2200 years ago. L260 has two branches - YP1337 which is quite pan-Slavic (probably it is quite popular in Czech Republic, but not so popular in Poland, where YP256 dominates among L260) and "Lechitic" YP256 (most of which is YP254+, which has TMRCA of about 2000 years). It is interesting why YP254 is so concentrated in Poland, unlike L1029, which is "pan-Slavic".

Dibran
08-23-2017, 05:29 PM
That is indeed my guess, based on the meager sampling so far. Lineages listed as L1029* at this point probably did not participate in the Slavic expansion, for whatever reason.

Why is it that everyone is gung ho in classifying all R1a other than Z93 as Slavic then? What you suggest makes sense. That these Corded Ware lineages diverged into different ethnolinguistic groupings. So this suggests only certain branches under certain r1a lineages can be classified as Slavic whilst others are not, is this correct?

Sadly most of the information on these forums is from laymen, and it seems to drown out the more fact based research/conclusions presented by yourself, Michal and others of the R1a project. Regards.

lgmayka
08-23-2017, 09:39 PM
Why is it that everyone is gung ho in classifying all R1a other than Z93 as Slavic then?
Many people prefer a simple explanation--even when some of the fact don't support it. Just today, a project member who has also tested with 23andMe told me that 23andMe associates the entire R1a1a haplogroup with Ashkenazi Jews! This is ridiculous, of course. I certainly hope that this is merely a misunderstanding.

Dibran
08-23-2017, 10:58 PM
Many people prefer a simple explanation--even when some of the fact don't support it. Just today, a project member who has also tested with 23andMe told me that 23andMe associates the entire R1a1a haplogroup with Ashkenazi Jews! This is ridiculous, of course. I certainly hope that this is merely a misunderstanding.

Not the entire halpogroup. Though I recall in an earlier version, 23 and me classified it as Slavic blanketly as well. The new version just says its common in Ashkenazi Jews, though associating it with them only is silly. So I think there is some considerable misunderstandings from the business side of it, that is sadly misinforming many people.

JoeyP37
08-23-2018, 02:54 PM
I tend to deprecate anyone who argues for M458's origin east of the eastern boundary of interwar Poland. M458 is the minority R1a clade, save for West Slavs, in the Slavic family of peoples. Of the two major clades, L260 is the most regular of them with an even distribution, again primarily of West Slavs. Of L1029, YP263 is the most normal distribution-wise, being primarily Polish, other West Slav, and in Germany. YP417 I connect to the Antes confederation, due to its presence in East Slavs and also Bulgaria. And then we have YP444, the most far-flung of the clades and the one I'm descended from. Looking at a Google map of the different L1029 clades, the easternmost YP444 is in north-central Poland. There are YP444 examples in more Germanic countries than Slavic. Given that M458 underwent a population bottleneck, and was most likely decimated/dispersed by the Goths/other East Germanic tribes in what is now Poland during the early days of the Roman Empire, I argue for a 'broad homeland' of M458 at the start of the Slavic expansions, and, indeed, some may have been assimilated into Germanic tribes prior to the Slavic expansion.

Dibran
08-25-2018, 09:40 PM
I tend to deprecate anyone who argues for M458's origin east of the eastern boundary of interwar Poland. M458 is the minority R1a clade, save for West Slavs, in the Slavic family of peoples. Of the two major clades, L260 is the most regular of them with an even distribution, again primarily of West Slavs. Of L1029, YP263 is the most normal distribution-wise, being primarily Polish, other West Slav, and in Germany. YP417 I connect to the Antes confederation, due to its presence in East Slavs and also Bulgaria. And then we have YP444, the most far-flung of the clades and the one I'm descended from. Looking at a Google map of the different L1029 clades, the easternmost YP444 is in north-central Poland. There are YP444 examples in more Germanic countries than Slavic. Given that M458 underwent a population bottleneck, and was most likely decimated/dispersed by the Goths/other East Germanic tribes in what is now Poland during the early days of the Roman Empire, I argue for a 'broad homeland' of M458 at the start of the Slavic expansions, and, indeed, some may have been assimilated into Germanic tribes prior to the Slavic expansion.

L1029(our line in specific) formed 3100ypb. Or 1100BC. Assuming as some surmise its origin between the Elbe and Oder, it most certainly spilled over east and west. In this scenario. Most of L1029 would have faced extermination, as the common ancestor is 2100ypb(100BC). Perhaps most were killed off with the expansion of the Huns/Avars westward? The Bulgars were in the upper Volga before descended south, and then southwest into the Balkans. Some Theorize M458 originated from between the Volga and Vistula. If this scenario is true, then the Bulgars would have also possessed it. It is all very complicating as we have absolutely no ancient DNA for M458 going from 500AD and earlier. Hell the only M458 samples we have are from 1100AD. This doesn't tell us much, nor does the stubborn attitude of those who speak of M458 with absolutes as if there are a plethora of samples.

I have to disagree on one thing though. YP263 is only 10 percent of Polish M458. Go over to Vaydas blog, it has an extensive breakdown with the most up to date data as of January. It does not include my founder effect though. My Albanian founder cluster has been added to the investigational tree on ISOGG. http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r1a-statistic-02-2018-14-new/

Assuming L1029 for instance was in Central Europe already, then Baltics/East Germanics Would have already carried it. In all likelihood though, after its major population drop for whatever reason, it spread again predominantly as a result of Slavic migrations. Slavs did after all assimilate many peoples, some of which were not forceful but an advantage to being under the heal of Rome. So its likely(in my theory anyways) that L1029 was Either Lusatian originally and or Proto-Baltic, and was absorbed by both East Germanics, and Slavs at different junctions in time.

The Saxons for instance had trade with the Balts. It is definitely possible some Baltic merchants or even soldiers moved with them westward, explaining how L1029 could have made it to the British Isles. There are also Polabian Slavic Pirates whom moved with the Heathen Army. However, they should be showing up predominantly L260, of which none has been found in the British Isles.

It will be problematic considering our line practiced cremation. This could make finding intact remains quite hard. Could explain why the only remains to date are from the Christian era when such a practice was abandoned. There is still possibility it will eventually show up somewhere.

YP263 has been found in the North/South Caucasus as well, among traditonally Turkic, and Kavkaz tribes. My theory is that some branched of L1029(at least in the Balkans) is Avars/Bulgars. Though different, some still believe the Avars are connected to the Caucasus Avars. Avars ruled Central Europe for a time. It is almost impossible to believe they left little to know genetic mark there. Besides They were heavily admixed with Europeans prior to entering the Balkans.

L1029 is also the least common in the Balkans outside Bulgarians, Romanians, Macedonians, and Northern Greeks. Most falls into Z280/I2a-Din which are the most typical of Slavic speaking populations outside of Western Slavs(whom are predominantly L260 to begin with=).

leonardo
08-25-2018, 10:27 PM
It has been 3 1/2 years since I started this thread and much has been discovered since then. M458 and its subclades have been developed into a full tree. At YFull most of those who have indicated some nation of ancestry list Poland, although M458 and its branches are present from China to Britain, from Sweden to Italy. Of course, some of this movement could be from men who migrated long after the formation of their clade. Reviewing the subclades of L1029 seems to give credence that L1029 was still in the homeland area, before the Slavic migration. Many argue this is somewhere in east central Europe, often referring to Polesie. I also am intrigued by Herodotus' Scythian Plowmen and Neuri. We know that, linguistically, the Balto-Slavic language was once one.

Tomenable
09-04-2018, 08:44 AM
I tend to deprecate anyone who argues for M458's origin east of the eastern boundary of interwar Poland. M458 is the minority R1a clade, save for West Slavs, in the Slavic family of peoples. (...)

Neither was the Proto-Slavic homeland located to the east of the eastern boundary of interwar Poland, though. :)

According to the mainstream theory, Early Slavic ancestors of Russians expanded into Russia from the west.

Dibran
10-12-2018, 12:43 AM
Neither was the Proto-Slavic homeland located to the east of the eastern boundary of interwar Poland, though. :)

According to the mainstream theory, Early Slavic ancestors of Russians expanded into Russia from the west.

Point still stands. Theres no ADNA. Like the webs of a spider. Argument has a flimsy foundation. Whilst most probably Proto-Slavic, its not definite. Nor is the sentiment that it didnt expand with others via assimilation. You simply cannot know that. The claim of which resting on no evidence, is absolutely unscientific. Hence, why geneticists and these companies don't engage in these theoretical discussions that you and many seem to take as gospel truth.