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View Full Version : Does any R1a-Z645 (xZ282, xZ93) still exist?



newtoboard
03-01-2015, 07:35 PM
Does any R1a of this variety still exist? If I recall there is ~1300-1500 years between when Z645 (4900-4700 BC BC?) and Z283 and Z93 are born (3600-3400 BC)? Given other basal lineages like M420, M459, M17, M417 still exist or have been found in aDNA why hasn't Z645? Where did Z645 originate and how did it split up?

newtoboard
03-01-2015, 07:40 PM
Oops meant to type xZ283.

parasar
03-01-2015, 08:23 PM
Does any R1a of this variety still exist? If I recall there is ~1300-1500 years between when Z645 (4900-4700 BC BC?) and Z283 and Z93 are born (3600-3400 BC)? Given other basal lineages like M420, M459, M17, M417 still exist or have been found in aDNA why hasn't Z645? Where did Z645 originate and how did it split up?

Not yet known. The string length is short (about 400 years) under Z645 to Z283 and Z93.
The number of mutations say at the M420 (149) level or M417 (26) or M198 (40) level is much higher than Z645 (5).

Artmar
03-02-2015, 01:10 PM
Z645's that aren't either Z283 or Z93 aren't attested for now. But it doesn't mean they won't pop-up in the future.

See that recent case of such discovery: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3927-New-branch-under-M458&p=71948&viewfull=1#post71948

Tomenable
07-29-2015, 11:19 AM
If I recall there is ~1300-1500 years between when Z645 (4900-4700 BC BC?) and Z283 and Z93 are born (3600-3400 BC)?

Around 1300-1500 years? Rather not.

According to YFull estimates, Z645 was born ca. 5500 years ago, TMRCA of Z645 was ca. 4900 years ago, Z283 formed ca. 4900 years ago, and Z93 formed also ca. 4900 years ago. It doesn't necessarily mean, that first Z93 and first Z283 were brothers, but definitely there were not many generations between them, and they both formed from their common ancestral Z645 population around the same time:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z645/

Simplified tree:

http://s14.postimg.org/zf7z4qq0h/Z645.png

http://s14.postimg.org/zf7z4qq0h/Z645.png


The string length is short (about 400 years) under Z645 to Z283 and Z93.

This about 400 years (5 SNPs) refers to time between formation of Z645 and TMRCA of Z645, right ??? YFull estimates formation time of Z283 as ~4900 ya and of Z93 as also ~4900 ya (and TMRCA of Z645 as ~4900 ya too; while its formation time as ~5500 ya).

===========================

Sintashta sample RISE386 (dated 2298-1760 BC) carried R1a-Z2124 (YFull estimate: 2700 BC):

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2124/

Sintashta sample RISE392 (dated 2126-1611 BC) carried R1a-Z2123 (YFull estimate: 1800 BC):

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2123/

Those people lived relatively short time after TMRCAs of their respective subclades occured, if we believe YFull.