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Bernard
03-04-2015, 07:57 PM
A new celtic princely grave has just been discovered at Lavau, near Troyes in France. The grave is equivalent to Hochdorf or Vix. Sorry this is in French: http://www.lemonde.fr/archeologie/article/2015/03/04/decouverte-exceptionnelle-en-france-d-une-tombe-princiere-celte_4587484_1650751.html

Bernard
03-04-2015, 08:11 PM
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MJost
03-04-2015, 08:26 PM
A new celtic princely grave has just been discovered at Lavau, near Troyes in France. The grave is equivalent to Hochdorf or Vix. Sorry this is in French: http://www.lemonde.fr/archeologie/article/2015/03/04/decouverte-exceptionnelle-en-france-d-une-tombe-princiere-celte_4587484_1650751.html

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lemonde.fr%2Farcheologie%2Farti cle%2F2015%2F03%2F04%2Fdecouverte-exceptionnelle-en-france-d-une-tombe-princiere-celte_4587484_1650751.html&edit-text=

MJost

Jean M
03-04-2015, 08:49 PM
A new celtic princely grave has just been discovered at Lavau, near Troyes in France. The grave is equivalent to Hochdorf or Vix.

Stunning! Thank you so much for telling us about it.

Scarlet Ibis
03-05-2015, 07:00 AM
Pretty incredible find. Thanks for notifying us about it. Seems it's finally been picked up in the English speaking media. http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/ancient-cauldron-found-inside-a-celtic-princes-ancient-tomb/story-fnh81p7g-1227248912214

Bernard
03-05-2015, 09:26 AM
From this paper: https://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lexpress.fr%2Factualite%2Fscien ces%2Fla-stupefiante-tombe-princiere-celte-de-lavau_1657993.html&edit-text= they plan to do DNA tests

Jean M
03-05-2015, 04:11 PM
Past Horizons has the story: http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/03/2015/exceptional-iron-age-elite-tomb-discovered-in-france from http://www.inrap.fr/archeologie-preventive/Actualites/Communiques-de-presse/p-19360-Decouverte-en-France-d-une-nouvelle-tombe-princiere-du-Ve-siecle-avant-notre-ere.htm


Exceptional Iron-Age elite tomb discovered in France

Since October 2014, a team of French archaeologists have been excavating an early Iron-Age princely tomb within an exceptional monumental funerary complex on the outskirts of Lavau (Champagne region).

At the centre of a 40 m diameter mound, the deceased and his chariot* lie at the heart of a large burial chamber of 14 m², one of the largest of its kind ever identified by archaeologists, dating to the beginning of the 5th century BCE (Hallstatt period).

The grave contains funerary goods worthy of the highest Hallstatt elite. The centrepiece of the deposit is a bronze cauldron, approximately 1 m in diameter. Its four circular handles are decorated with heads of the Greek river deity Acheloos who is represented here horned, bearded, with ears of a bull and a triple moustache. The edge of the cauldron is also decorated with eight lionesses heads.

* Is this really a chariot? Or is it a wagon?

Bernard
03-05-2015, 08:07 PM
Is this really a chariot? Or is it a wagon?
Is the difference between a chariot and a wagon, the number of wheels: 2 wheels for the chariot and 4 wheels for the wagon ?
This grave is from the beginning of the 5th century BC so it is probably a vehicule with 4 wheels.

Heber
03-10-2015, 08:51 AM
I contacted INRAP regarding the DNA testing (en Francais). They forwarded my query to the director and scientific team. Hope to get a reply. From other articles it appears that the site preservation is maintained using the latest process and techniques learned from similar excavations.
My guess would be R1b-U152.

Bernard
05-07-2015, 07:27 AM
From a French podcast here (http://www.franceculture.fr/emission-le-salon-noir-qui-est-le-prince-de-lavau-le-cousin-de-la-princesse-de-vix-2015-05-05), there is a chariot with 2 wheels in the grave. These are the grave goods:
* a bronze cauldron
* a Greek ceramic wine jug
* a dagger
* a golden torc of weight more than 500g
* two golden bracelets
* a lignite brassard
* iron and coral fibulae
* amber beads
* bronze loops
* tissue remains around the cauldron
* leather remains around the skeleton
* poorly preserved skeleton so they don't know if it is a man or a woman

paulgill
05-07-2015, 07:52 AM
From a French podcast here (http://www.franceculture.fr/emission-le-salon-noir-qui-est-le-prince-de-lavau-le-cousin-de-la-princesse-de-vix-2015-05-05), there is a chariot with 2 wheels in the grave. These are the grave goods:
* a bronze cauldron
* a Greek ceramic wine jug
* a dagger
* a golden torc of weight more than 500g
* two golden bracelets
* a lignite brassard
* iron and coral fibulae
* amber beads
* bronze loops
* tissue remains around the cauldron
* leather remains around the skeleton
* poorly preserved skeleton so they don't know if it is a man or a woman

But where are the DNA results?

Bernard
05-07-2015, 08:14 AM
But where are the DNA results?
Do you expect to have the DNA results now? LOL may be in 2017 or 2018...

Agamemnon
05-07-2015, 08:20 AM
Do you expect to have the DNA results now? LOL may be in 2017 or 2018...

And that's an overly optimistic estimate, if anything.

paulgill
05-07-2015, 09:28 AM
Do you expect to have the DNA results now? LOL may be in 2017 or 2018...

Fire them all, it takes only a day for whole genome sequencing now, no grants for them anymore.

Bernard
05-07-2015, 10:29 AM
Fire them all, it takes only a day for whole genome sequencing now, no grants for them anymore.
It seems you have no idea about the difficulties to extract ancient DNA

tamilgangster
05-07-2015, 10:51 AM
Im surprised that celtics had civilizations back then, Werent they always hunter gathers, or simple farmers until the middle ages

Jean M
05-08-2015, 08:09 PM
Im surprised that celtics had civilizations back then, Werent they always hunter gathers, or simple farmers until the middle ages

Hunter-gatherers? No. That lifestyle ceased in most of Europe in the Neolithic, though of course people carried on fishing around the coast, and hunting was an upper-class passion right into modern times in various parts of Europe. When the ancient Greeks came across people they called Celts, Europe was into the Iron Age. This is when the Celts acquired chariots, but only high-ranking people had them. That is one reason that this grave is called 'princely'. Tribal chiefs and leaders could prosper through trade, hence such rich burials. Ordinary Celts would farm the land or be artisans, like most people in Europe at that time. Towards the end of this period, urban centres and coinage were developing among the richer Celtic tribes, but it was these peoples who were absorbed into the Roman empire. So they entered civilization, willing or not. Of the Celtic-speaking territories, only Ireland and northern Britain remained outside the empire, but they acquired literacy with Christianity in the Post-Roman period. So that may be what you are thinking of.

Helgenes50
05-09-2015, 05:58 AM
Hunter-gatherers? No. That lifestyle ceased in most of Europe in the Neolithic, though of course people carried on fishing around the coast, and hunting was an upper-class passion right into modern times in various parts of Europe. When the ancient Greeks came across people they called Celts, Europe was into the Iron Age. This is when the Celts acquired chariots, but only high-ranking people had them. That is one reason that this grave is called 'princely'. Tribal chiefs and leaders could prosper through trade, hence such rich burials. Ordinary Celts would farm the land or be artisans, like most people in Europe at that time. Towards the end of this period, urban centres and coinage were developing among the richer Celtic tribes, but it was these peoples who were absorbed into the Roman empire. So they entered civilization, willing or not. Of the Celtic-speaking territories, only Ireland and northern Britain remained outside the empire, but they acquired literacy with Christianity in the Post-Roman period. So that may be what you are thinking of.

In the Roman Empire, many peoples have preserved their language.
In Gaul, we have lost ours. that is a little like loosing his soul.

The number of urban centers is the reason , i.e. easier to control ?
or because the latin and the Gaulish were very close ?

I wonder sometimes if the Roman Church in this case is not the first guilty of this loss of identity

That's maybe a mix of all these reasons ?

What do you think about it ?

Jean M
05-09-2015, 09:28 AM
In the Roman Empire, many peoples have preserved their language. In Gaul, we have lost ours. ... What do you think about it ?

I agree that the similarity of Latin and the related languages of Gaul and Iberia, including Gaulish, Celtiberian, Lusitanian and Ligurian would make it easier for locals to learn Latin as a second language. It would also make it easier for inter-marriage to occur between Latin-speakers and bilingual speakers of Latin and Gaulish (or whatever), in which the language of the home would be Latin. That way more and more children would grow up with Latin as their first language. The longer that a territory was within the Roman empire and well-integrated within it (e.g. with Roman citizenship and representatives in the Senate), and the less contact it had with places outside the empire, the more likely it would be to be predominantly Latin-speaking and so develop a Romance language after it left the Roman empire. So we have French, Catalan, Castilian Spanish, Galician, Italian, Portuguese etc. Romanian is a bit of a puzzle, as that territory was a late gain to the empire and an early loss.

I agree that the fact that Latin was the language of the Church helped to preserve it, but mainly as a formal language, used by scholars, in law, religion and diplomacy. The people spoke Vulgar Latin in their daily lives, which developed into the Romance languages.

Helgenes50
05-09-2015, 10:51 AM
I agree that the similarity of Latin and the related languages of Gaul and Iberia, including Gaulish, Celtiberian, Lusitanian and Ligurian would make it easier for locals to learn Latin as a second language. It would also make it easier for inter-marriage to occur between Latin-speakers and bilingual speakers of Latin and Gaulish (or whatever), in which the language of the home would be Latin. That way more and more children would grow up with Latin as their first language. The longer that a territory was within the Roman empire and well-integrated within it (e.g. with Roman citizenship and representatives in the Senate), and the less contact it had with places outside the empire, the more likely it would be to be predominantly Latin-speaking and so develop a Romance language after it left the Roman empire. So we have French, Catalan, Castilian Spanish, Galician, Italian, Portuguese etc. Romanian is a bit of a puzzle, as that territory was a late gain to the empire and an early loss.

I agree that the fact that Latin was the language of the Church helped to preserve it, but mainly as a formal language, used by scholars, in law, religion and diplomacy. The people spoke Vulgar Latin in their daily lives, which developed into the Romance languages.

It would also make it easier for inter-marriage to occur between Latin-speakers and bilingual speakers of Latin and Gaulish (or whatever), in which the language of the home would be Latin.


That probably was the case in Southern Gaul or in lyon, maybe around the Rhine but in NW Gaul, where are Normandy and Brittany today, I don't think so, except in isolate cases.

If I remember correctly, a grave with Osque inscriptions has been discoverd in the XIXth century, in the Cotentin peninsula ( Hague) , a population next to Napoly deported by Romans in different places of Gaul.

The latin certainly has many sources, without speaking of the soldiers, the veterans. For them the Latin was the common language.
In inter-marriage between a German veteran with a Gaulish wife,
the latin was the best tool of communication , like the english today

Heber
05-09-2015, 11:23 AM
"The tomb is larger than the cathedral in nearby Troyes."
Definately an elite burial. Research could take several years

https://youtu.be/8LsSmsSBcTY

http://www.connexionfrance.com/Iron-Age-tomb-Celtic-prince-Lavau-Troyes-Inrap-16710-view-article.html

Bernard
06-15-2015, 04:18 PM
This is the Lavau skeleton:
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Bernard
06-16-2015, 01:01 PM
For those who understand French:

https://player.vimeo.com/video/129679235

Jean M
08-15-2015, 05:57 PM
This excavation is featured in the current issue of Current World Archaeology - no. 72 (August/September 2015) http://www.world-archaeology.com/


From this paper: ...they plan to do DNA tests

So far they have not has success in extracting DNA, according to the article in Current World Archaeology.

Heber
08-15-2015, 06:39 PM
For those who understand French:

https://player.vimeo.com/video/129679235

Remarkable video with gold bracelets and torc and vessels. The torc is similar to the Reinheim torc. He mentioned extracting DNA at about 4:00 to compare with Vix and Hochdorf and further analysis from bones available in coming months at 5:00. There was disagreement between the bone scientist who suggested male and clothing scientist who suggested female regarding the sex of the skeleton.

The tomb was first discovered in October last year and made public in March, but following further excavations, experts have now released more details of the riches inside the grave.
In a statement released by the National Archaeological Research Insitute in France, Inrap, it said: 'Lying at the centre of the tomb, at the south end, the deceased rests with its two-wheeled chariot.
'The prince is dressed in his jewellery. It sports a solid gold torque heavier than even that of the Princess of Vix's rigid collar.
'In his wrists, a gold bracelet, while his left bicep was girded with a lignite [jet] armband. This furniture has similarities with that of the tomb of Reinheim in Germany.

However, Inrap added: 'The poor state of preservation of the bones means it is not yet possible to determine with certainty the sex of the individual.'
The position of the skeleton in the tomb - lying slightly on its side - has meant archaeologists have been unable to examine the pelvis without damaging the remains.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3131308/Does-France-s-2-500-year-old-royal-tomb-belong-prince-princess-Stunning-Celtic-complete-chariot-jewels-leaves-archaeologists-baffled.html

Bernard
09-28-2015, 09:15 AM
The skeleton is a man from an anthropological study

Kwheaton
09-28-2015, 02:10 PM
If only they could be sucessful in getting some DNA! Y-DNA would be especially appreciated. :pray:

Jean M
06-01-2016, 05:01 PM
If only they could be sucessful in getting some DNA! Y-DNA would be especially appreciated. :pray:

They are trying to get aDNA. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/lavau-celtic-prince-inside-5th-century-bc-tomb-that-could-reveal-secrets-ancient-civilisation-1548947

Lavau Celtic prince: Inside the 5th century BC tomb that could reveal secrets of ancient civilisation


On 5 March 2015, French archaeologists revealed to the world the presence of one of the most important discoveries in more than 50 years. Following the exploration of a site near the village of Lavau, the remains of a huge Celtic funerary chamber, which must have belonged to an important leader, began to emerge from the depths of the earth. The importance of this find can be compared to 1953's discovery of grave belonging to the so-called 'Lady of Vix'. A year on, the Lavau Prince has revealed many of his secrets to archaeologists, but a lot of mysteries remain. They hold the key to a better understanding of the Celtic civilisation that lived at the time, in the 5th century BC.....

Men or women? This was the first question that came up when the archaeologists discovered the prince. The luxurious bracelets found in the tomb initially suggested that the tomb's inhabitant was a woman, but an analysis of the pelvic bones suggest it was actually a man. DNA samples will now be taken and analysed to confirm this.

The teeth and the bone structure of the prince also revealed that he was in his forties, in good health and quite tall. The only injury he seemed to have sustained is a broken collarbone. His jewellery and burial outfit were not what archaeologists expected, suggesting they might still have things to learn about burial traditions.

The interest now is in comparing his DNA with the DNA of other royal remains found in the region, near the city of Troyes. "It is exciting because the DNA should give us clues about the organisation of this land, and of the society there," said Dubuis. If he and his teams see a similarity with other remains, they will know that the territory belonged to the same powerful family and, if not, that there was probably a violent power struggle between the clans in the area.

Heber
06-01-2016, 05:04 PM
Lavau Celtic prince: Inside the 5th century BC tomb that could reveal secrets of ancient civilisation

This was the first question that came up when the archaeologists discovered the prince. The luxurious bracelets found in the tomb initially suggested that the tomb's inhabitant was a woman, but an analysis of the pelvic bones suggest it was actually a man. DNA samples will now be taken and analysed to confirm this....

The interest now is in comparing his DNA with the DNA of other royal remains found in the region, near the city of Troyes. "It is exciting because the DNA should give us clues about the organisation of this land, and of the society there," said Dubuis. If he and his teams see a similarity with other remains, they will know that the territory belonged to the same powerful family and, if not, that there was probably a violent power struggle between the clans in the area.

The excavation of the site finished in April 2015, and all the objects have been found. But on the first anniversary of the discovery, the archaeologists still have a lot of mysteries to solve. "Analysing DNA and sediments found in the tomb, we will now try to let what's invisible speak, we will try to understand the secrets and the culture of this civilisation," Dubuis revealed.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/lavau-celtic-prince-inside-5th-century-bc-tomb-that-could-reveal-secrets-ancient-civilisation-1548947

This is the tomb site, the size of the Cathedral of Troyes.

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MitchellSince1893
06-01-2016, 05:31 PM
If they are successful, I wouldn't be surprised if he is R-Z142.

Heber
06-01-2016, 08:19 PM
I would hazard a guess. Something below R1b-U152. I suspect there is a degree of continuity below P312.

Kwheaton
06-01-2016, 08:24 PM
Would love an L2.....maybe even a FGC22501...wishful thinking of course....

Heber
06-02-2016, 12:43 PM
There are some nice photos on the INRAP site.

http://www.inrap.fr/decouverte-d-une-nouvelle-tombe-princiere-du-ve-siecle-avant-notre-ere-5394

Dubhthach
06-02-2016, 05:13 PM
They are trying to get aDNA. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/lavau-celtic-prince-inside-5th-century-bc-tomb-that-could-reveal-secrets-ancient-civilisation-1548947

Lavau Celtic prince: Inside the 5th century BC tomb that could reveal secrets of ancient civilisation

They should Bradley's lab in Trinity a call.

Heber
10-17-2016, 07:36 PM
The paper is published.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/49667540/2015_Dubuis-Garcia-Millet-CRAI.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ56TQJRTWSMTNPEA&Expires=1476735380&Signature=7c9prgdGcJH1aQpHed13aeA0fbQ%3D&response-content-disposition=attachment%3B%20filename%3DLes_contact s_entre_la_mediterranee_archa.pdf

LBA Necropole. Iron Age royal burial covering one hectare. Extraordinary preservation and rich grave goods.

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He was wearing a half kilogram golden torc.

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Magnificent Mediterranean drinking vessel.

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Jean M
10-17-2016, 08:13 PM
The paper is published.

I've put it in Vault > International > French.

Dewsloth
10-17-2016, 09:06 PM
From a French podcast here (http://www.franceculture.fr/emission-le-salon-noir-qui-est-le-prince-de-lavau-le-cousin-de-la-princesse-de-vix-2015-05-05), there is a chariot with 2 wheels in the grave. These are the grave goods:
* a bronze cauldron
* a Greek ceramic wine jug
* a dagger
* a golden torc of weight more than 500g
* two golden bracelets
* a lignite brassard
* iron and coral fibulae
* amber beads
* bronze loops
* tissue remains around the cauldron
* leather remains around the skeleton
* poorly preserved skeleton so they don't know if it is a man or a woman

No sword?

Judith
11-05-2016, 04:50 PM
Thank you all for the links to all these beautiful photos. I appreciated the later links too, since they were quicker to download. Like you all I am keen to get the DNA results.

Heber
06-01-2017, 07:14 AM
Lavau Celtic Prince: 2,500-year-old royal tomb starts to reveal its secrets
Objects inside the tomb appear to show the cultural interactions between different worlds in the 5th century BCE.

These findings reveal that cultural and economic interactions were taking place between the Celtic and Mediterranean worlds at the time the Lavau Celtic Prince was alive.

Analyses will go on until 2019, to try and find out more about the prince's identity and to learn more about the origins of all the objects he had taken with him in the afterlife.

Already, the researchers have solved one of the most important mysteries they had been confronted with after discovering the tomb - they showed that the deceased was indeed a prince and not a princess. While golden jewels recovered on the skeleton could have belonged to a female, the shape of the pelvic bones suggest he was a male.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/lavau-celtic-prince-2500-year-old-royal-tomb-starts-reveal-its-secrets-1623933

Camulogène Rix
07-18-2017, 09:36 PM
In France, we have plenty of wonderful archaeological sites from Metal Age:
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but, surprisingly, a shortage of aDNA analysis...
Other countries are less well equipped, but they find what they are looking for:
17608
Any explanation about this strange contradiction?