PDA

View Full Version : Possible Jewish Ancestry?



Koshur_Sam
03-05-2015, 07:39 PM
I'm new to this, not 100% on how gedmatch works but i ran my dna through MDLP Oracle and found the following results.
I'm trying to figure out whether it's indicating Jewish ancestry and if so is it a large portion?
Could someone try and help me figure the results out please?

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss152/SDotR_2009/4be18086-96c8-4645-89df-237e5eea6769.png (http://s571.photobucket.com/user/SDotR_2009/media/4be18086-96c8-4645-89df-237e5eea6769.png.html)

Thanks in Advance :)

parasar
03-05-2015, 08:34 PM
I'm new to this, not 100% on how gedmatch works but i ran my dna through MDLP Oracle and found the following results.
I'm trying to figure out whether it's indicating Jewish ancestry and if so is it a large portion?
Could someone try and help me figure the results out please?

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss152/SDotR_2009/4be18086-96c8-4645-89df-237e5eea6769.png (http://s571.photobucket.com/user/SDotR_2009/media/4be18086-96c8-4645-89df-237e5eea6769.png.html)

Thanks in Advance :)

Why Jewish? Is that due to the Pakhtoon at number 2 who have traditions of Israeli descent. The Jew-India is a west coast population with perhaps some Jewish connection, but they are far below the Burusho on your list.
Your data actually would make sense for someone Balti or Dardic (a misnomer, but we are stuck with it) .

MonkeyDLuffy
03-05-2015, 08:56 PM
Are you koshur from anthroscape? Your results looks similar to kashmiris.

Koshur_Sam
03-05-2015, 09:33 PM
Why Jewish? Is that due to the Pakhtoon at number 2 who have traditions of Israeli descent. The Jew-India is a west coast population with perhaps some Jewish connection, but they are far below the Burusho on your list.
Your data actually would make sense for someone Balti or Dardic (a misnomer, but we are stuck with it) .

Nah nothing to do with Israelites, it just showed Jew_India and i wondered how much that counts or am i supposed to go by what comes up first? I was unsure about that

I think it's cuz of the bit that shows 'using 2 populations approximations' and it states 50% Burusho and 50% Jew_India

Koshur_Sam
03-05-2015, 09:34 PM
Are you koshur from anthroscape? Your results looks similar to kashmiris.

Hey, no i don't have an account on there but yeah i am and ethnic Kashmiri

MonkeyDLuffy
03-05-2015, 09:59 PM
Are you muslim kashmiri or Hindu kashmiri?

Kashmiris usually have higher Caucasian than other NW south asians like Punjabis, haryanvis etc. While other NW south asians show more NE euro in them from what I've noticed.

Jew India are found in Southern part of India and have jewish ancestry from paternal side, which is really ancient. Even I have jew India as 5th population on this calculator.

Koshur_Sam
03-05-2015, 10:04 PM
Are you muslim kashmiri or Hindu kashmiri?

Kashmiris usually have higher Caucasian than other NW south asians like Punjabis, haryanvis etc. While other NW south asians show more NE euro in them from what I've noticed.

Jew India are found in Southern part of India and have jewish ancestry from paternal side, which is really ancient. Even I have jew India as 5th population on this calculator.

I'm Muslim Kashmiri.
Majority of my heritage as far as i am aware is Kashmiri Pandit but the surname 'Rathore' is thrown around in my family a little and there's always been speculation of whether its genuinely a Rajasthani connection or a name that was adapted during Dogra rule.

MonkeyDLuffy
03-05-2015, 10:07 PM
Since rathore is rajput surname, it might be dogra. Although rajputs are found overall South asia but rathore is a common surname among pahari and dogra rajputs along with jaswal.

surbakhunWeesste
03-06-2015, 12:51 AM
Are you muslim kashmiri or Hindu kashmiri?

Kashmiris usually have higher Caucasian than other NW south asians like Punjabis, haryanvis etc. While other NW south asians show more NE euro in them from what I've noticed.

Jew India are found in Southern part of India and have jewish ancestry from paternal side, which is really ancient. Even I have jew India as 5th population on this calculator.

Jewish lineage is maternal not paternal.

Koshur_Sam
03-06-2015, 01:31 AM
Jewish lineage is maternal not paternal.

That is generally the case but historically, having studied Torah and old texts it would stand that Israelite lineage was passed down paternally as well

jesus
03-06-2015, 02:04 AM
What's your Y-DNA ?

MonkeyDLuffy
03-06-2015, 03:33 AM
Jewish lineage is maternal not paternal.

I remeber reading about Jews in India, bene Israel, that they have jewish heritage paternally. I could be wrong though :)

parasar
03-06-2015, 03:49 AM
Jewish lineage is maternal not paternal.

I notice that you are U2. If I may ask, is it U2*, or some known subclade.

surbakhunWeesste
03-06-2015, 05:44 AM
I notice that you are U2. If I may ask, is it U2*, or some known subclade.

Its U2b2. I thought I wrote it in its completeness.

parasar
03-06-2015, 05:59 AM
Its U2b2. I thought I wrote it in its completeness.

Thanks.
Same here - http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1884-haplogroup-U2&p=58378&viewfull=1#post58378

MonkeyDLuffy
03-06-2015, 06:06 AM
Its U2b2. I thought I wrote it in its completeness.


We both have R1a1a Ydna, afghanistan shows as second country of origin on 23&me in my profile.

surbakhunWeesste
03-06-2015, 06:13 AM
We both have R1a1a Ydna, afghanistan shows as second country of origin on 23&me in my profile.

Do you have any Pashtun ancestry?

MonkeyDLuffy
03-06-2015, 06:49 AM
Not that I know of, as I am from Sikh Tarkhan family. But David said my results were typical for a Punjabi. Here is me on the plot, clustering near 2 pathans from Peshawar:

http://i.imgur.com/Brw1Q54.png

http://i.imgur.com/MVKTCn6.png

Sapporo
03-06-2015, 07:29 AM
@Monkey

The "Pathan" samples are the HGDP Pashtun samples from around Kurram Valley in FATA. They are not from Peshawar.

MonkeyDLuffy
03-06-2015, 07:40 AM
@Monkey

The "Pathan" samples are the HGDP Pashtun samples from around Kurram Valley in FATA. They are not from Peshawar.

Why are the clustering near Punjabis and Gujarati?

Koshur_Sam
03-06-2015, 10:48 AM
What's your Y-DNA ?

Whose mine? It's R2

Koshur_Sam
03-06-2015, 10:51 AM
I remeber reading about Jews in India, bene Israel, that they have jewish heritage paternally. I could be wrong though :)

The Bene Israel or Bnei Menashe who are the most recent exports to Israel for Aliya hvent actually even been tested by dna, another reason why ALOT of Jews are funny about the community travelling over to Israel without actual proof.
The Mumbai and Cochin Jews did show a link to other Jews via DNA.

They say us Kashmiris and Pashtuns apparently descend from Israelite stock, I think it goes waaaay back though so probably harder to prove

surbakhunWeesste
03-06-2015, 11:11 AM
The Bene Israel or Bnei Menashe who are the most recent exports to Israel for Aliya hvent actually even been tested by dna, another reason why ALOT of Jews are funny about the community travelling over to Israel without actual proof.
The Mumbai and Cochin Jews did show a link to other Jews via DNA.

They say us Kashmiris and Pashtuns apparently descend from Israelite stock, I think it goes waaaay back though so probably harder to prove

Pashtuns and Kashmiris are quite different people; admixture wise, culturally, linguistically...but then Some Pashtuns in Pakistan seem to have mixed with dardic people.
Pashtuns being Israelite stock is likely a myth, it would have shown in our admixture if that was the case.
Do you believe that you have have Israelite ancestry? just asking

Koshur_Sam
03-06-2015, 01:41 PM
Pashtuns and Kashmiris are quite different people; admixture wise, culturally, linguistically...but then Some Pashtuns in Pakistan seem to have mixed with dardic people.
Pashtuns being Israelite stock is likely a myth, it would have shown in our admixture if that was the case.
Do you believe that you have have Israelite ancestry? just asking

I think it is possible yes.
It is more believable for me than say the Muslims claiming Syed heritage in the North of India and Pakistan as the Arabs never travelled so far up North they remained mainly in the South as the descendants o Sea merchants.

I think for me the similarities lie in the culture of pashtun and kashmiris, including names, customs etc

Dr_McNinja
03-06-2015, 01:47 PM
Some Bene Israel I ran into on 23andMe were J2b2-M241 paternal and R30 and M39 maternal. Autosomally they had elevated Mideast/Caucasian on Ancestry Composition. They had also all emigrated to Israel a while back.

kenji.aryan
03-06-2015, 03:26 PM
Y-DNA of Bene Israel


Genetic analysis shows that the Bene Israel of India "cluster with neighbouring autochthonous populations in Ethiopia and western India, respectively, despite a clear paternal link between the Bene Israel and the Levant.



Mt-DNA of Indian Jews

According to the study of 2008 b D. Behar et al., the maternal lineage of the Jews of India has a local origin for the vast majority of the community. The maternal gene pool also includes some minor maternal lineage originating in the area of Iraq/Iran or Italy. Genetic research shows that 41.3% of Bene Israel descend from one female ancestor, who was of indigenous Indian origin. Cochin Jews also have genetic similarities with other Jewish populations, in particular with Yemenite Jews, along with the indigenous populations of India


http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v466/n7303/images/nature09103-f1.2.jpg

parasar
03-06-2015, 04:05 PM
Some Bene Israel I ran into on 23andMe were J2b2-M241 paternal and R30 and M39 maternal. Autosomally they had elevated Mideast/Caucasian on Ancestry Composition. They had also all emigrated to Israel a while back.

A community of Konkan Brahmans related to us have similar stories as the Bene Israel (Shaniwar Telis) and Kochis. There was a Behar paper that had tested the Bene Israel and found them to have the CMH. I'm not sure if they were tested for more discerning SNPs.

You will similar claims being made here - http://www.nazraney.com/journal35.htm http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/gb-2005-6-8-p10.pdf - all highly doubtful, and often total nonsense.

Sapporo
03-06-2015, 05:58 PM
Why are the clustering near Punjabis and Gujarati?

Those are 3 slight outliers. The majority cluster with the Kalash and near the Di Cristofano Kunduz/Baghlan Northern Afghan Pashtun samples who seem, to be slightly less South Asian admixed but more East Eurasian admixed than the HGDP Pashtuns. The Gujarati samples are quite diverse. The majority would not cluster near the Pashtuns but the UP Brahmins and UP Kshatriya or even further away.

surbakhunWeesste
03-06-2015, 06:56 PM
I think it is possible yes.
It is more believable for me than say the Muslims claiming Syed heritage in the North of India and Pakistan as the Arabs never travelled so far up North they remained mainly in the South as the descendants o Sea merchants.

I think for me the similarities lie in the culture of pashtun and kashmiris, including names, customs etc

Interesting! Pashtuns have quite unique names both males and females,the names root from pashto ofc, well unless you are referring names rooting from arabic,then that statement can be true for all cultures with arabic and Islamic influence. Pashtun culture can differ from one Pashtun tribe to another based on geographical location,dialect,lineage and all that, its even more intruiging when you say ,"I think for me the similarities lie in the culture of pashtun and kashmiris, including names, customs etc"

Imo we have more in common with Baloch than Kashmiris, tradition, culture/customs.....

AJL
03-06-2015, 07:10 PM
Some Bene Israel I ran into on 23andMe were J2b2-M241 paternal and R30 and M39 maternal. Autosomally they had elevated Mideast/Caucasian on Ancestry Composition. They had also all emigrated to Israel a while back.

There's a podcast related to their immigration here (http://tabletmag.com/podcasts/189074/india-to-israel).

Koshur_Sam
03-06-2015, 07:39 PM
Interesting! Pashtuns have quite unique names both males and females,the names root from pashto ofc, well unless you are referring names rooting from arabic,then that statement can be true for all cultures with arabic and Islamic influence. Pashtun culture can differ from one Pashtun tribe to another based on geographical location,dialect,lineage and all that, its even more intruiging when you say ,"I think for me the similarities lie in the culture of pashtun and kashmiris, including names, customs etc


Imo we have more in common with Baloch than Kashmiris, tradition, culture/customs.....


I meant names like yusufzai, which translate as children or son of Joseph, so I've been told by other Pashtuns.
Other names amongst kashmiris and Pashtuns are Asher and Israyil which again I wouldnt expect Arabs to keep.
I didn't mean Pashtuns and Kashmiris are similar culturally I was referring to israelite customs and culture being similar to both Pashtuns and Kashmiris

surbakhunWeesste
03-06-2015, 08:13 PM
I meant names like yusufzai, which translate as children or son of Joseph, so I've been told by other Pashtuns.
Other names amongst kashmiris and Pashtuns are Asher and Israyil which again I wouldnt expect Arabs to keep.
I didn't mean Pashtuns and Kashmiris are similar culturally I was referring to israelite customs and culture being similar to both Pashtuns and Kashmiris

Zai simply means son of in Pashto. Many Tajiks use zada/zadeh which implies same meaning son of... Therefore, if we use that logic then Tajiks can be Israelite too since the have Yusufzadeh/Yusufzada!!! Pashtuns are a confederation, hence there are many hypothesis for the origins of Pashtuns. I have heard Greek/Rajput/Turkic/Israelite/Albanian....

Khawaja
03-06-2015, 08:21 PM
Interesting! Pashtuns have quite unique names both males and females,the names root from pashto ofc, well unless you are referring names rooting from arabic,then that statement can be true for all cultures with arabic and Islamic influence. Pashtun culture can differ from one Pashtun tribe to another based on geographical location,dialect,lineage and all that, its even more intruiging when you say ,"I think for me the similarities lie in the culture of pashtun and kashmiris, including names, customs etc"

Imo we have more in common with Baloch than Kashmiris, tradition, culture/customs.....

I don't think there are many similarities, but some of them would be that both Pashtuns and Kashmiris drink kahwah and play the Rubab, and both ethnic groups inhabit cold mountainous areas so there might be some similarities cause of that.

surbakhunWeesste
03-06-2015, 08:38 PM
I don't think there are many similarities, but some of them would be that both Pashtuns and Kashmiris drink kahwah and play the Rubab, and both ethnic groups inhabit cold mountainous areas so there might be some similarities cause of that.

I would rather call that being culturally influenced. Rubab originated in Khorasan, made its way to India, courtesy to Ustad Amjad Ali Khan's ancestors. They play Rubab in India with much pride as they play it in Afghanistan. They even moulded Sarod, another musical instrument that was inspired by the Rubab. Kahwah is shared with other ethnicities as well even as far as South India, its consumed by many other ethnic group as well, perhaps different variations of it.
Its understandable that because of ancient empires based in modern day Afghanistan reigning the areas of present day Iran to India, there can be some cultural similarity.