L1b (L-M317)

[Caspian]

L1b is found at low frequencies in the Middle East, Caucasus and rarely South Central Asia. It's subclade L-M349 is found at low frequencies in Levant region and Southern/Central Europe.

I found a map about subclades of L. You can see geographic distribution of L1b and other subclades.
http://i.imgur.com/TphXqAe.jpg

Also, I've just studied on a phylogenetic tree about L1b. I've used 37 markers y-str results of L1b* (L-M317) and L1b1 (L-M349) samples from FTDNA database, and I've used McDonald's individual mutation rates for each str markers on Murka phylogeny software working with the parsimony methods. You can get more information about Murka in this topic. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1827-Manual-for-MURKA-(phylogeny-package-for-parsimony-methods)

I've used those McDonald's mutation rates one by one for each str markers.

http://i.imgur.com/mloz0Qn.png

All of L1b clusters have a common ancestor who lived 10200 +- 900 years ago.
L-M349 samples have a common ancestor who lived 6000 +- 800 years ago.

That is the result of my study, phylogenetic tree of L1b.
http://i.imgur.com/B2Nl14a.jpg

As a result, L1b-M317 (xM349) probably originated between Levant and Iranian plateau, and L1b1-M349 probably originated in the Levant according to phylogenetic tree.

What do you think about that western branch of haplogroup L?

[Caspian]

Also, I belong to M317+ L656+ and I've clustered with three Chechen and a Bulgarian samples under the 3500 years old Pontic/Caucasian Cluster, and we have a common ancestor who lived circa 1600 years ago. I have got three Iraqi exact matches but they haven't got 37 markers. Therefore, I couldn't add them to the tree.

[jesus]

L1b1* seem to correlate with the Kurdish, Lur/Bakhtiari and Qashqai Areas. It also a strong presence along the Anti-Lebanon mountains, the Caspian coast and the Volga region.

http://i.imgur.com/TphXqAe.jpg


http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/62/1962-004-3D012DD8.gif

http://geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Language_Gulf_Map.jpg

[Anabasis]

Here is a Dendogram for L1b people in West Asia and Europe. A bottleneck is argued for West Asian L1b as far as ~6200 (8700-2500) year is lost to be linked to European and Levant L1b.

Its also discovered that 42% of Lazs, 40+ % of Hamshins and 30-40 % of Eastern Trabzon are L1b. L1b is also frequently found in Migrelians too.

http://s020.radikal.ru/i710/1503/90/4bf83d6c070e.png

[vettor]

L1b is found at low frequencies in the Middle East, Caucasus and rarely South Central Asia. It's subclade L-M349 is found at low frequencies in Levant region and Southern/Central Europe.

I found a map about subclades of L. You can see geographic distribution of L1b and other subclades.
http://i.imgur.com/TphXqAe.jpg

Also, I've just studied on a phylogenetic tree about L1b. I've used 37 markers y-str results of L1b* (L-M317) and L1b1 (L-M349) samples from FTDNA database, and I've used McDonald's individual mutation rates for each str markers on Murka phylogeny software working with the parsimony methods. You can get more information about Murka in this topic. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1827-Manual-for-MURKA-(phylogeny-package-for-parsimony-methods)

I've used those McDonald's mutation rates one by one for each str markers.

http://i.imgur.com/mloz0Qn.png

All of L1b clusters have a common ancestor who lived 10200 +- 900 years ago.
L-M349 samples have a common ancestor who lived 6000 +- 800 years ago.

That is the result of my study, phylogenetic tree of L1b.
http://i.imgur.com/B2Nl14a.jpg

As a result, L1b-M317 (xM349) probably originated between Levant and Iranian plateau, and L1b1-M349 probably originated in the Levant according to phylogenetic tree.

What do you think about that western branch of haplogroup L?

All the L2-L595 matches the areas of Ydna T1a , except the Greek part

Any other information on this?

L-L595

L-L595 is found only in Europe from Ireland to Eastern Europe and their highest frequency is found in Estonia,[Footnote 5] Scozzari 2001, Lappalainen 2008.
footnote 5 - found by Ftdna labs in May 2011

[Caspian]

Here is a Dendogram for L1b people in West Asia and Europe. A bottleneck is argued for West Asian L1b as far as ~6200 (8700-2500) year is lost to be linked to European and Levant L1b.

Its also discovered that 42% of Lazs, 40+ % of Hamshins and 30-40 % of Eastern Trabzon are L1b. L1b is also frequently found in Migrelians too.

http://s020.radikal.ru/i710/1503/90/4bf83d6c070e.png

You're right, L1b found at high frequencies in the Pontic region and Southwest Caucasus. It also found at high frequencies in Mountain Jews and Avars from Dagestan. We need more Caucasian samples from FTDNA.

There aren't some L1b samples on the Rozhansky's L1b tree. There are 142 samples on my tree, but his tree includes 130 samples. I think, also he used an average mutation rate for every str markers, but I've used variable mutation rates to slow and fast each str markers.

[Caspian]

All the L2-L595 matches the areas of Ydna T1a , except the Greek part

Any other information on this?

L-L595

L-L595 is found only in Europe from Ireland to Eastern Europe and their highest frequency is found in Estonia,[Footnote 5] Scozzari 2001, Lappalainen 2008.
footnote 5 - found by Ftdna labs in May 2011

I haven't got an idea about it. It is a different branch of L.

[Anabasis]

You're right, L1b found at high frequencies in the Pontic region and Southwest Caucasus. It also found at high frequencies in Mountain Jews and Avars from Dagestan. We need more Caucasian samples from FTDNA.

There aren't some L1b samples on the Rozhansky's L1b tree. There are 142 samples on my tree, but his tree includes 130 samples. I think, also he used an average mutation rate for every str markers, but I've used variable mutation rates to slow and fast each str markers.

Caspian sorry i couldnt understand the age of the Pontic cluster. Whats the age of it? And which one is the oldest? Your tree is a bit confusing

[Anabasis]

Oke I got the tree. Probaby i will be clustered at upper side of 3 Greko Armenian and cousin with kit nos :N94640 and 292179. Thanks for your great job.

[Caspian]

Interesting that L1b found at significant frequencies in peoples who speak a different language from their religion.

For example, Hayroums a.k.a Hayhurums are Armenian speaking people who believe in Greek Orthodox church from Kars and Ardahan have L1b at significant frequencies.
http://i.imgur.com/bJNT54G.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayhurum
That map is about Hayroum villages in Eastern Anatolia.
http://i.imgur.com/3C4yEai.png

Hemshins are Armenian speaking people who believe in Islam from Black-Sea region also have L1b at significant frequencies.

Also, Greeks from Tsalka (Azeri speaking people who believe in Greek Orthodox church) from Georgia and Greeks from Crimea (Greco-Tatars) have it.

That is y-dna results of Greeks from Tsalka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsalka), Georgia.
http://i.imgur.com/2YldLr7.png

And Greeks from Crimea.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Iv9nzcVwtgA/TzwQmmVXF9I/AAAAAAAAAvo/cQhj-uazNIQ/s1600/3.jpg

I'm sure that, some L1b samples from Black Sea were related Greek colonization and/or Kingdom of Pontus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Pontus).
Look at the map about Greek colonies of the Northern Black Sea in 450 BCE.
http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/65/Ancient_Greek_Colonies_of_N_Black_Sea.png

And some L1b samples was influenced by the struggle between Armenian Apostolic, Georgian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Church in Eastern Anatolia and Southern Caucasus.

[Anabasis]

ABsolutely you are right Caspian. L1b in black sea probably were proto Lazs or Proto Colhis tribes independently lived in pontic highland. As a result of Roman, Armenian Kingdomm and Georgian influence they divided into pieces. May i learn where did you get that y-dna results of Greeks from Tsalka?

[Caspian]

I get them from Semargl.me.

If you write "Greek" to line of Name or Kit, you can see they results and details of haplotypes.

[Anabasis]

I get them from Semargl.me.

If you write "Greek" to line of Name or Kit, you can see they results and details of haplotypes.

Are all greek from tsalka in the list? Or are there other greeks in the list?

[Caspian]

Yes, all of them are from Tsalka, Georgia.

There aren't other Greeks in the list.

[Anabasis]

Let me know you then, Most of the greeks from tsalka and crimia are pontic greeks who are the exiled from East of Trabzon during 1700s by Ottoman empire. And the hay roums are the colonies of Trabzon Empire in Armenia during medevial times. Probably L1b people are the proto laz or proto colhis tribe members, like Tzanis or Macrons in ancient times.

[Anabasis]

Yes, all of them are from Tsalka, Georgia.

There aren't other Greeks in the list.

How can i join that website ?

[Caspian]

Let me know you then, Most of the greeks from tsalka and crimia are pontic greeks who are the exiled from East of Trabzon during 1700s by Ottoman empire. And the hay roums are the colonies of Trabzon Empire in Armenia during medevial times. Probably L1b people are the proto laz or proto colhis tribe members, like Tzanis or Macrons in ancient times.

Proto-Colchian tribes may have been L1b, it also found at high frequencies Mingrelian and Laz people, but I'm not sure, because Caucasian cluster of L1b was younger than Proto-Colchis accordig to Rozhansky. Rozhansky calculated 2500 years TMRCA of Caucasian L1b samples. Proto-Colchis were in western Caucasus 3500 years ago. They have been Macrones, Tiberani, Tzanni etc. but don't forget that subclade also found at 20% frequencies in Moutain Jews and at 10% frequencies in Avars from Dagestan.


How can i join that website ?

I don't know that. I'm not member of it's.

[Anabasis]

Proto-Colchian tribes may have been L1b, it also found at high frequencies Mingrelian and Laz people, but I'm not sure, because Caucasian cluster of L1b was younger than Proto-Colchis accordig to Rozhansky. Rozhansky calculated 2500 years TMRCA of Caucasian L1b samples. Proto-Colchis were in western Caucasus 3500 years ago. They have been Macrones, Tiberani, Tzanni etc. but don't forget that subclade also found at 20% frequencies in Moutain Jews and at 10% frequencies in Avars from Dagestan.



I don't know that. I'm not member of it's.

You calculated it 3500 year. Isnt it right? And one more thing that, there arent any BIG Y test in pontic cluster yet. The age is not certain. What we know is its at least 2500 years old. For now.

[Caspian]

^ Rozhansky is a geneticist, but I'm not, his methodology is more reliable :)

[Caspian]

edit: double post

[Caspian]

I created a map about my y-dna L1b matches by regions using the FTDNA, Yhrd and Semargl databases.

http://i.imgur.com/0WzT3jo.png
Black: I'm
Blue: Exact matches
Red: -1 step mutation matches

3x Shiite Bedouin matches from Southern Iraq.
3x Kabarday matches from Kabardino-Balkaria
3x Mingrelian matches from Samegrelo Zemo Svaneti region of Georgia
2x Chechen matches from Chechnya.
1x Bulgarian match from Bulgaria
1x Pontic Greek match from Tsalka, Georgia
1x Pontic Greek match from Greece
1x Turkish match from Trabzon, Turkey
1x Hamshen Armenian match from Artvin, Turkey.

I wonder that what was the connection between Persian Gulf and Caucasus in the history? I have got a lot of matches from Caucasus, but my closest matches from Persian Gulf. My Iraqi matches haven't got 37 markers results. I really wonder their 37 markers, therefore I might be sponsor them to upgrade their y-str markers. Maybe I'll find my lost relatives :)

[vettor]

I created a map about my y-dna L1b matches using the FTDNA, Yhrd and Semargl databases.

http://i.imgur.com/0WzT3jo.png
Black: I'm
Blue: Exact matches
Red: -1 step mutation matches

3x Shiite Bedouin matches from Southern Iraq.
3x Kabarday matches from Kabardino-Balkaria
3x Mingrelian matches from Samegrelo Zemo Svaneti regio of Georgia
2x Chechen matches from Chechnya.
1x Bulgarian match from Bulgaria
1x Pontic Greek match from Tsalka, Georgia
1x Pontic Greek match from Greece
1x Turkish match from Trabzon, Turkey
1x Hamshin Armenian match from Artvin, Turkey.

I wonder that what was the connection between Persian Gulf and Caucasus in the history? I have got a lot of matches from Caucasus, but my closest matches from Persian Gulf. My Iraqi matches haven't got 37 markers results. I really wonder their 37 markers, therefore I might be sponsor them to upgrade their y-str markers. Maybe I'll find my lost relatives :)

exact matches do not mean place of origin necessarily..............my take is you are from modern Armenia/Georgia area ...............with very close matches migrating south

[Caspian]

exact matches do not mean place of origin necessarily..............my take is you are from modern Armenia/Georgia area ...............with very close matches migrating south

Does this mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamluk_dynasty_of_Iraq

Iraq was controlled by Georgian Mamluks (Slaves).

"The Mamluks ruled the pashaliks of Baghdad, Basrah, and Shahrizor"

[vettor]

Does this mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamluk_dynasty_of_Iraq

Iraq was controlled by Georgian Mamluks (Slaves).

"The Mamluks ruled the pashaliks of Baghdad, Basrah, and Shahrizor"

The Circassians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassians

where also part of the mamluks

[Anabasis]

The Circassians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassians

where also part of the mamluks

I think there was a historical connection between Cauauss and Basra Gulf. May be historical Elam or Summerian people may migrated to caucauss.But all of those assumption have to be proven. More sample required from Southern Iraq.

BTW thats my FTDNA matches. I have not any exact match for 12 Marker. Rest are 1 step. White one is me.

4263

[Caspian]

L tree was updated by ISOGG in 3 April.

L-M27 (old L1a) and L-M357 (old L1c) are sub clustered under the L-M2481 (new L1a)

L-M2481 is new L1a, I called it "Southeastern subclade"
L-M27's new name is L1a1, I called it "Southern subclade"
L-M357's new name is L1a2, I called it "Eastern subclade"

L-M317 aka L1b, I called it "Central-Western subclade"
L-M317 (xM349), I called it "Central subclade"
L-M349 aka L1b1, I called it "Western subclade"

L-L595 aka L2, I called it "Northern subclade"

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpL.html

http://i.imgur.com/RK4qfMf.png

[Caspian]

Mr. Igor Rozhansky, a Russian geneticist answered me about L1b.

His thoughts about L1b in the Caucasus, Anatolia and Europe.


Dear Aras,

I'm writing directly to your e-mail address because attached files are somewhat big for handling with personal message in the forum. These are trees made for 37 marker haplotypes from your spreadsheets as well as from the L haplogroup FTDNA project.I have calculated them by using PHYLIP software, Fitch-Margoliash algorithm. MEGA 5 software was used for graphics editing. TMRCA have been calculated with the hand-made calculator in MS Excel format. You can publish these diagrams freely with the reference to my authorship. It took some time to prepare them because of my quite busy schedule.

As for your question about so-called Pontic cluster, it looks rather mysterious one. This cluster is unusually young for genealogical lineages from Anatolia, just 2400±280 ybp, compared with >4000 ybp for branches of E1b1b, J1, J2 and R1b haplogroups in the same region. It is very likely, that its ancestor came from some distant place. If we compare the L1b Pontic cluster with lineages from Georgia and North Caucasus, several branches of haplogroup G2a and show similar TMRCA and rather close geographical distribution. Both G2a and L1b are spread in Europe, albeit in low frequencies, and their TMRCA (between 8000 and 9000 ybp) are very close.

I suspect, both have been present in the first Neolithic settlers in Europe, but later they have been suppressed and, in part, displaced by the new wave of migrants, particularly bearers of the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker cultures. Those "Old Europeans" who have been pushed to Caucasus Ridge, had hard times, and their recovery started rather lately. Probably, they have brought Kartvelian languages to Caucasus from Europe (?), because these languages started to expand in the same time, that is the in middle of the 1st millennium BCE. Powerful Persian and Hellenistic kingdoms prevented from the southward spread of these new tribes, therefore Pontic cluster of L1b and Caucasian branches of G2a are rare in the Near East. This is only a proposition. We need more data, especially from ancient DNA.

Bear regards.
Igor Rozhanskii.

[Anabasis]

Mr. Igor Rozhansky, a Russian geneticist answered me about L1b.

His thoughts about L1b in the Caucasus, Anatolia and Europe.


In my opinion he neglect the L1b in Levant. Moreover most of the L1b in Europe belong to M349 subsclade which is not found frequently in Eastern Black Sea and Caucasus. TMRCA calculation might be wrong for 2500 years. We need SNP calculation. A Tsalka pontic greek bought a BIG Y so far. We need some more from lazs, Hamshins and Trabzon and yours as well.

In my opinion pontic cluster should be investigated with Lubanese and Assyrian clusters rather then european ones. Because autosomal results usually shows 3-4 oracle as combination of Georgian + Lubanese Druzis (or Cypriots)+ Armenians

[Caspian]

I also think that the L1b was originated in Levant or Mesopotamia. Oldest clusters are located between Levant and Iran in the some phylo trees.

He thinks European L1b samples (M349) have a similar TMRCA with Neolithic G2a in the Europe. Probably, they were related with Neolithic farmers in the Near East.
(Neolithic G2a was originated in Near East)

He is right about that TMRCA of Anatolian L1b samples are so younger than other haplogroups in the Anatolia. It went from some distant place. Also, he thinks that the Caucasian L1b samples have a similar TMRCA and geographic distribution with G2a's Caucasian branches (G2a1 and its down clades).I doubt it.

I also wonder that where did L1b come from to Caucasus.
My autosomals results also shows as combination of Georgia (or Abkhasia, Ossetia) + Northern Mesopotamia/Levant/Armenia/Iran + Central Asia (Influence of Turkic speakers)

Did it come from the south?

[Anabasis]

What i see that L1b is found with G2a-M406 rather then Caucaisan branches like P303. In my opinion M406, L1b and some branches of J2 might moved togather. But i have not idea where those branches have intersected.

[Caspian]

Today, I got third exact match from Iraq at FTDNA Arab Tribes project. There are total of three exact and one 12/11 matches from near Nasiriyah for now.

There is also 37 markers order of my new match this time. His 37 markers results probably will be uploaded after one month. I am excited about his 37 markers. If there are max. 2 or 3 mutations (on fast markers) in our 37 markers it means we have certain common ancestor last 500-1000 years.

[hodadat]

. .

[laert]

A Tsalka pontic greek bought a BIG Y so far.

Hi all!

I registered to this forum for the only reason - to meet you in this topic about L1b-M317. I'm Pontic Greek from Tsalka and one of Admins of FTDNA Pontic Greek DNA project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/russiangreeks/about). By the end of the year we will have more than 60 Y12 test results for orthodox pontic greeks from Tsalka and pontiaka (romeyka) speaking muslims from Trabzon area. We also have another 80 Y17 test results made in laboratory in Moscow, Russia. More than 20% of all the results are L1b-M317. The frequency is very high and is the highest among all other nations (hemshins, lazs, megrels, etc.), and this gives us a lot of material to research.

Moreover we bought five BigY tests and four of them are ready, you can see also YFull results based on those BigY tests at their Ytree (http://yfull.com/tree/L/) - a new terminal SNP PH2079 under M317 was found with TMRCA calculated of 3000 ybp. We are also in contact with Mr. Rozhansky and Mr. Klyosov in order to make more detailed interpretation as soon as we get all the data (we are very enthusiastic to find out the roots for the L1b-M317 ancestors in Pontic region).

We would like to invite you into discussion about this interesting L1b-M317 haplogroup and to help us with making FTDNA Y-DNA and BigY tests for hemshins, lazs, megrels and other nations with L1b-M317 for comparison. It would be also interesting to compare results with M349 guys.

We will also appreciate sharing your thoughts and ideas on how should we move on with the testing having limited financing - making many cheap Y12 tests (going widespread) or several expensive BigY test from different nations (going deeper)?

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Laert

[Sangarius]

My maternal grandfather from Sürmene (Trabzon) took a 67 marker test and is predicted to be L-M20 by FTDNA. His closest match is a Pontic Greek at 67 markers with a genetic distance of 2.
I haven't tested any y-dna SNPs yet. Unfortunately FTDNA has no SNP packs for haplogroup L. Any recommended SNP to test? By the post of laert M317 seems to be common in the region.

[Anabasis]

My maternal grandfather from Sürmene (Trabzon) took a 67 marker test and is predicted to be L-M20 by FTDNA. His closest match is a Pontic Greek at 67 markers with a genetic distance of 2.
I haven't tested any y-dna SNPs yet. Unfortunately FTDNA has no SNP packs for haplogroup L. Any recommended SNP to test? By the post of laert M317 seems to be common in the region.

Best way is having BIG Y test. Hg L is not so common thats why i dont think that FTDNA will prepear SNP pack for HG L as far as there are not so many known SNPs and subscades for HG L.

[Huntergatherer1066]

My maternal grandfather from Sürmene (Trabzon) took a 67 marker test and is predicted to be L-M20 by FTDNA. His closest match is a Pontic Greek at 67 markers with a genetic distance of 2.
I haven't tested any y-dna SNPs yet. Unfortunately FTDNA has no SNP packs for haplogroup L. Any recommended SNP to test? By the post of laert M317 seems to be common in the region.

You might also consider Geno 2.0 Next Gen in lieu of a SNP pack, it is on sale for $150 right now and tests a decent amount of L SNPs, plus you would get autosomal and mtDNA information as a bonus. BigY though would be best if you can afford it.

[paulgill]

My maternal grandfather from Sürmene (Trabzon) took a 67 marker test and is predicted to be L-M20 by FTDNA. His closest match is a Pontic Greek at 67 markers with a genetic distance of 2.
I haven't tested any y-dna SNPs yet. Unfortunately FTDNA has no SNP packs for haplogroup L. Any recommended SNP to test? By the post of laert M317 seems to be common in the region.

FullGenomes WGS 4x test will do the job, and the 10x will give you better results, and Y Elite 2.0 for best results.

[jesus]

I have no Y-DNA matches in FTDNA, no close matches in Ysearch either. I'm going to purchase the Big Y soon though.

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120607020331/thehungergames/images/f/fa/Sad-forever-alone-l.png


Ysearch genetic distance tool:
http://i.imgur.com/fH52vN4.png

[Anabasis]

I have no Y-DNA matches in FTDNA, no close matches in Ysearch either. I'm going to purchase the Big Y soon though.

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120607020331/thehungergames/images/f/fa/Sad-forever-alone-l.png


Ysearch genetic distance tool:
http://i.imgur.com/fH52vN4.png

İt would be great because there ia a huve gap between pontic cluster and other people under m317. Pontic cluster dated 3200 years old so far. But m317 estimated that 18000 years old. L m317 need more bigy to solve the puzzle of exsistence of L in west asia.

[Anabasis]

ISOGG Tree and Yfull tree of HG L is updated. New mutations under M317 are

• • • L1b3~ PH8, PH108, PH612, PH997, PH1060, PH1371, PH1428, PH1520, PH1844, PH2124, PH2161, PH2832, PH2952, PH3298, PH3524, PH4160, PH4366.1, PH4489, PH4587, SK1412
• • • • L1b3a~ PH2079
• • • • • L1b3a1~ PH1714, PH3523
• • • • L1b3b~ PH1099, PH3342
• • • • • L1b3b1~ PH1728
• • • • • L1b3b2~ Y18889, Y18890

All mutations under PH8 are belong to pontic cluster of L.
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpL.html

http://www.yfull.com/tree/L/

There are still a huge gap between pontic cluster(3000-3200 years old) and M317 (18000 years old) . More full sequence Y test is reiquired to solve the migration route of west asian - european M317 which is approximately 18k years old.
Levant L1b s from Maronites, Druzis or Syrians, Armenians, Assyrians would be nice to have FSY test. On the other hand there are not any M349 sample in Yfull too. There arent any L2 sample either which seems unique to Europe. There are stiill long way to solve puzzle. At least for now, we almost know many thing (although Migrelian's or Lazs' L1bs havent tested FSY) about L1b in Black Sea region of Turkey.

In my opinion L1b-M317 is neolethic clade of L in west asia. I m open to suprises :)

[lgmayka]

ISOGG Tree and Yfull tree of HG L is updated.
Unfortunately, YFull still doesn't have a single example of L-L595, the earliest known offshoot of L. A member of L-L595 is in my project but is not interested in spending any more money on DNA testing.

[Anabasis]

Unfortunately, YFull still doesn't have a single example of L-L595, the earliest known offshoot of L. A member of L-L595 is in my project but is not interested in spending any more money on DNA testing.

Where is he from?

[Anabasis]

Actualy yfull have one. A sardinian L 595 sample which is in progress. Unfortunately that sample will not be included into tmrca because it is a academic sample.

[lgmayka]

Where is he from?
His ancestor is listed as

Seiler,Joseph; abt 1779; German,Baden,Neuershausen

[GarethH]

Actualy yfull have one. A sardinian L 595 sample which is in progress. Unfortunately that sample will not be included into tmrca because it is a academic sample.

You would need two L-L595 samples to get a TMRCA within the subgroup. What the next upgrade will hopefully show is the split of the big chain of 264 SNPs (currently all listed as L) between L and L1, to give the TMRCA of L1 and L2. My prediction is about 30,000 ybp.

[Anabasis]

You would need two L-L595 samples to get a TMRCA within the subgroup. What the next upgrade will hopefully show is the split of the big chain of 264 SNPs (currently all listed as L) between L and L1, to give the TMRCA of L1 and L2. My prediction is about 30,000 ybp.

Thanks Mr. Gareth. I would like to learn your assumptions on the spread of L2 and L-M317 separately. L2 seems paleothic clade of L in Europe. But whats your idea about the M-317? Is it effect of Iranian Platue on West Asia during neolethic or it came West Asia in later migrations? Could L1b involved in Neolethic revolution? Or just later migrants of south Asia during middle or late neolethic? Any idea?

[GarethH]

Thanks Mr. Gareth. I would like to learn your assumptions on the spread of L2 and L-M317 separately. L2 seems paleothic clade of L in Europe. But whats your idea about the M-317? Is it effect of Iranian Platue on West Asia during neolethic or it came West Asia in later migrations? Could L1b involved in Neolethic revolution? Or just later migrants of south Asia during middle or late neolethic? Any idea?

L-M317 has lots of branches and we don't know yet how they all fit together. I think the TMRCA of L-PH8 and L-M349 is around 13,000 years ago but their spread into the Pontic and Mediterranean areas could be neolithic or bronze age. Now that we know that L-M27 (old L1) and L-M357 (old L3) connect together as L1a (L-M2481, YFull's TMRCA is 17,400 ybp) I don't see any need to persist with a South Asian origin for the whole of L-M22. The origin could be almost anywhere in West Asia, the timescales allow for multiple migrations.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

I'm going to need some help soon. I'm not new to prehistory and archaeology, but I am new to population genetics and very, very green. I've recently had my Y Hg tested L2* M317 by 23andme (ISOGG 2009 tree, making it L1b I believe). I am have a very English family tree. I trace my surname line to South Oxfordshire, England circa 1790.

I've ordered a Y111 kit from FTDNA. Any help is going to be very much appreciated in understanding the West European distribution and history of this Y.

I hope to report my results soon.

[Anabasis]

I'm going to need some help soon. I'm not new to prehistory and archaeology, but I am new to population genetics and very, very green. I've recently had my Y Hg tested L2* M317 by 23andme (ISOGG 2009 tree, making it L1b I believe). I am have a very English family tree. I trace my surname line to South Oxfordshire, England circa 1790.

I've ordered a Y111 kit from FTDNA. Any help is going to be very much appreciated in understanding the West European distribution and history of this Y.

I hope to report my results soon.

I m here whenever you need a help. It would be nice to see your Y str results but in my opinion instead of having STR test it would be better to have full sequence test of Y chromosome like Ftdna-Big Y test or FGC- Y elite2. FGC would be better as far as FTDNA does not give BAM file anymore which may place you in a yfull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/L/)

In my opinion you are L-M317 > M349 but another subsclade under M317 is possible. If you clustered in pontic cluster (Ph8) your ancestry might went to england during Roman empire but L history in europe is much more older. M349 seems a neolethic clade in europe.

[Anabasis]

I m here whenever you need a help. It would be nice to see your Y str results but in my opinion instead of having STR test it would be better to have full sequence test of Y chromosome like Ftdna-Big Y test or FGC- Y elite2. FGC would be better as far as FTDNA does not give BAM file anymore which may place you in a yfull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/L/)

In my opinion you are L-M317 > M349 but another subsclade under M317 is possible. If you clustered in pontic cluster (Ph8) your ancestry might went to england during Roman empire but L history in europe is much more older. M349 seems a neolethic clade in europe.

Edit Note: FTDNA have begun giving BAM files, thus you can have your test in FTDNA too.

[Caspian]

I'm going to need some help soon. I'm not new to prehistory and archaeology, but I am new to population genetics and very, very green. I've recently had my Y Hg tested L2* M317 by 23andme (ISOGG 2009 tree, making it L1b I believe). I am have a very English family tree. I trace my surname line to South Oxfordshire, England circa 1790.

I've ordered a Y111 kit from FTDNA. Any help is going to be very much appreciated in understanding the West European distribution and history of this Y.

I hope to report my results soon.

Welcome to the forum.

I'am happy when I see a new L-M317 person, because this is a rare y-dna haplogroup. L1b is western branch of haplogroup L and mostly found in West Asia and Central and South Europe. Your y-dna haplogroup may has been result of migrations of Early Neolithic Farmers from West Asia to Europe, like G2a, T and E1b in Europe in my opinion. This is only my guess. Because, we haven't got any ancient L1b sample yet. If an ancient L1b or L sample is found in the future, we may face a surprise.

I agree with Anabasis about your paternal ancestor having emigrated from the Anatolia to Europe during Roman Empire or emigrated from Northern Caucasus with Alans if you belong to L1b's specific Pontic Cluster. We have some German, Bulgarian, Romanian, Austrian and Slovenian L1b samples in Europe who belongs to L1b's pontic cluster.

[Caspian]

I m here whenever you need a help. It would be nice to see your Y str results but in my opinion instead of having STR test it would be better to have full sequence test of Y chromosome like Ftdna-Big Y test or FGC- Y elite2. FGC would be better as far as FTDNA does not give BAM file anymore which may place you in a yfull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/L/)

In my opinion you are L-M317 > M349 but another subsclade under M317 is possible. If you clustered in pontic cluster (Ph8) your ancestry might went to england during Roman empire but L history in europe is much more older. M349 seems a neolethic clade in europe.

He is L1b (xM349) if 23andme gave him L2-M317 result. 23andme test incledes M349 snp. If he was L1b1-M349, 23andme would give him L2a-M349 result.

[Anabasis]

He is L1b (xM349) if 23andme gave him L2-M317 result. 23andme test incledes M349 snp. If he was L1b1-M349, 23andme would give him L2a-M349 result.

Thanks. I didnt know that.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Thank you for your welcome, and I'm pleased to be the far NW European representative on this incredibly helpful thread. I feel very privileged to have this marker, and quite bewildered. I'll consider a Big Y / Y elite test in the future. I want to see how prices go. For now, the Y111 will have to do. I trace my surname line (not that they always follow the Y) back on paper eight generations to Berkshire, England, during the 1740s. When I have my Y111 data on FTDNA, I hope that someone can give me a fresh prediction.

[GarethH]

Thank you for your welcome, and I'm pleased to be the far NW European representative on this incredibly helpful thread. I feel very privileged to have this marker, and quite bewildered. I'll consider a Big Y / Y elite test in the future. I want to see how prices go. For now, the Y111 will have to do. I trace my surname line (not that they always follow the Y) back on paper eight generations to Berkshire, England, during the 1740s. When I have my Y111 data on FTDNA, I hope that someone can give me a fresh prediction.

A welcome from me too, and thanks for joining the L Project which I administer. The 111 test results will be a very helpful addition to the project data. When the results come in I'll add you to the most appropriate cluster in the Project (usually I do this within 24 hours of being notified by FTDNA's automated e-mail.)

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Coincidence - I think that I only just now sent you an email.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

My Y111 results are in. Kit 491864 provenanced to my surname ancestor John Brooker, who lived at Long Wittenham, in the Thames Valley, England, during the 1740's. Predicted so far L M20. It has been allocated to the "29 L-M317 (ISOGG L1b* ) not clustered" group. It matches with a nearby result (only 32 miles away, and the only other predicted M317 in the L group for the UK), belonging to another surname, that has produced another two other matches on FTDNA outside of the group record, one at Y37. 92% confidence at 16 generations. All three matches (2 x Y12, 1 x Y37) belong to the same English surname (not Brooker).

This seems to be suggesting that all FTDNA recorded British L1b's are linked, perhaps within the past 400 - 600 years? I'm new at this, and it's late, and I need to go to bed. Any thoughts?

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Copied from the FB Group:


I now have my results for my Y111. It confirmed the 23andMe test for M20. The 23andMe test terminated at M317. My FTDNA kit number is: 491864. FTDNA did actually provide some matches - the other unclustered predicted M317 in England is a match. I have talked to it's owner. It has lead me so far to two Y12 results that both originate with the Chandler surname in Hampshire, England. A seperate Y37 result from Australia has a genetic distance of 3, but also descends from Chandler of Hampshire.

There are three L M20 results from Y12 clustered on the Chandler Project that are at 12 markers, two perfect to mine. The record goes back to a Thomas Chandler, that during the 1740's, lived only 32 miles from my ancestor John Brooker. The Chandler Surname Project has grouped them as Group 10:

http://chandlerfamilyassociation.org/chandna.html#gp10

Therefore they appear to be connected to my Brooker line through a NPE. Looking at comparison charts with my inexperience, I'm guessing TMRCA between myself and them to be 300 to 600 years ago.

That L M317 is so very rare in the UK, to find this match, suggests to myself that a common ancestor may have moved to Southern England around that time period.

As a novice, I welcome any discussion or comments. A Big Y will follow.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

STR's for the Southern English L-M20 available as a google Sheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zGapOEEHlHszQ7asu8tlTCnbtAqfluQTCoRgDYqtmiY/pubhtml

[Caspian]

English L1b-M317 seems very young (medieval ?) according to Y-Str markers because there is low diversity.

[Caspian]

English L1b-M317 haplotype and an Eastern Iranian haplotype are smilar.

Southern English
491864 John Brooker, 1750s, Long Wittenham, Oxfordshire England L-M20 11 23 15 10 11-17 11 12 12 14 14 31 16 9-10 11 11 25 16 21 31 15-16-16-16 10 10 19-21 14 15 20 15 32-34 11 10 11 8 15-15 7 12 10 8 12 10 13 20-20 14 11 12 12 14 8 12 22 22 15 12 11 15 11 11 12 11 35 15 8 15 14 27 27 19 12 11 12 13 11 9 12 11 10 9 12 33 10 13 21 15 11 12 28 15 19 14 24 18 13 15 25 12 24 18 11 15 19 9 12 11


Eastern Iranian from Birjand (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Birjand,+South+Khorasan,+Iran/@23.7870068,30.0117708,4z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x3f1a5dfeec7ff0ed:0x61692d6ddd944 3c0!8m2!3d32.8649039!4d59.2262472)/Southern Khorasan
361905 Muhammad Habibi Iran L-M20 11 23 15 10 12-17 11 12 12 14 14 31 16 9-10 11 11 25 16 21 30 15-15-16-16 10 10 19-21 14 14 18 15 30-37 11 10 11 8 15-15 7 12 10 8 12 10 13 20-20 14 12 12 12 17 8 13 22 22 15 12 11 14 11 11 12 11 34 15 8 15 13 26 27 19 12 11 13 13 11 9 12 11 10 9 12 33 10 12 21 16 11 11 26 15 19 14 24 16 13 15 26 12 23 18 12 15 19 9 12 11

[GarethH]

Caspian, are you able to contact #361905 and ask him to join the L Project?

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Thank you Caspian. that was very interesting. The Google sheet has been updated with that first comparison. Any idea or proposal for TMRCA between the Eastern Iranian kit, and my South English (Brooker) kit?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zGapOEEHlHszQ7asu8tlTCnbtAqfluQTCoRgDYqtmiY/pubhtml

[jesus]

English L1b-M317 haplotype and an Eastern Iranian haplotype are smilar.

Southern English
491864 John Brooker, 1750s, Long Wittenham, Oxfordshire England L-M20 11 23 15 10 11-17 11 12 12 14 14 31 16 9-10 11 11 25 16 21 31 15-16-16-16 10 10 19-21 14 15 20 15 32-34 11 10 11 8 15-15 7 12 10 8 12 10 13 20-20 14 11 12 12 14 8 12 22 22 15 12 11 15 11 11 12 11 35 15 8 15 14 27 27 19 12 11 12 13 11 9 12 11 10 9 12 33 10 13 21 15 11 12 28 15 19 14 24 18 13 15 25 12 24 18 11 15 19 9 12 11


Eastern Iranian from Birjand (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Birjand,+South+Khorasan,+Iran/@23.7870068,30.0117708,4z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x3f1a5dfeec7ff0ed:0x61692d6ddd944 3c0!8m2!3d32.8649039!4d59.2262472)/Southern Khorasan
361905 Muhammad Habibi Iran L-M20 11 23 15 10 12-17 11 12 12 14 14 31 16 9-10 11 11 25 16 21 30 15-15-16-16 10 10 19-21 14 14 18 15 30-37 11 10 11 8 15-15 7 12 10 8 12 10 13 20-20 14 12 12 12 17 8 13 22 22 15 12 11 14 11 11 12 11 34 15 8 15 13 26 27 19 12 11 13 13 11 9 12 11 10 9 12 33 10 12 21 16 11 11 26 15 19 14 24 16 13 15 26 12 23 18 12 15 19 9 12 11

One English sample is also pretty close to me, too bad the number of STR values is low(12). I match perfectly with 1 Lithuanian and 1 Black sea Georgian, but the STR values are too low again (8).

http://i.imgur.com/iIM7DCb.png

[Anabasis]

One English sample is also pretty close to me, too bad the number of STR values is low(12). I match perfectly with 1 Lithuanian and 1 Black sea Georgian, but the STR values are too low again (8).

http://i.imgur.com/iIM7DCb.png

You should check the spreadsheet of "A Norfolk L-M20"

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3963-L1b-(L-M317)&p=159156&viewfull=1#post159156

If you close those English samples there might be reletively recent migration (500-600 years) toward England from where your paternal homaland. English L1b seems very early clade.

Thanks to NorFolk that he bought a BIG Y. Thus we will able to see when this clade will be seperated from rest of the clusters.

[GarethH]

Thank you Caspian. that was very interesting. The Google sheet has been updated with that first comparison. Any idea or proposal for TMRCA between the Eastern Iranian kit, and my South English (Brooker) kit?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zGapOEEHlHszQ7asu8tlTCnbtAqfluQTCoRgDYqtmiY/pubhtml

GDs between Brooker and Habibi are approximately 13 at 67 markers and 27 at 111 markers. Rough guess for TMRCA is 1st millennium BC. Could be around the time the Persians were fighting the Greeks in Asia Minor???

[A Norfolk L-M20]

GDs between Brooker and Habibi are approximately 13 at 67 markers and 27 at 111 markers. Rough guess for TMRCA is 1st millennium BC. Could be around the time the Persians were fighting the Greeks in Asia Minor???

I have no idea how often these mutations are likely to occur. I expected a more recent tmrca between us. I'd be interested in finding out more. I wonder how the Pontic Greek Samples compare?

[Anabasis]

I have no idea how often these mutations are likely to occur. I expected a more recent tmrca between us. I'd be interested in finding out more. I wonder how the Pontic Greek Samples compare?

TMRCA of 67 marker is 1500 years and 1800 for 111 marker according to http://www.clan-donald-usa.org/index.php/tmrca-calculator
. It shows the begining of 1st milenium. In that times Roman - Sasanian wars happened along Eastern Anatolia. Greek- Persian wars were 1 milenium earlier. But tmrca of STR are not trustworthy.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

TMRCA of 67 marker is 1500 years and 1800 for 111 marker according to http://www.clan-donald-usa.org/index.php/tmrca-calculator
. It shows the begining of 1st milenium. In that times Roman - Sasanian wars happened along Eastern Anatolia. Greek- Persian wars were 1 milenium earlier. But tmrca of STR are not trustworthy.

Yes cousin, STR data is not a reliable indicator of TMRCA. None-the-less, your and Gareth's suggestions are incredibly interesting to me. This is exactly the kind of genetic genealogy that attracts me. Here I am, an East Anglian, and Englishman, with a pretty comprehensive recorded family tree - overwhelmingly East Anglian, 100% on the face of it, English.

Yet (with all reservations and uncertainty taken into account), if I was able to trace back on my paternal lineage, most likely based on the meagre evidence and results from unreliable calculators; most likely, my Y lineage, by somewhere between 1,500 years before present, and 3,000 years before present, lived somewhere between Anatolia, Afghanistan, the Caucasus, and Arabia. That sounds very uncertain, but I'm so pleased with it. It stirs my imagination. My Y ancestors may have lived in an incredibly interesting age and region.

I'd take that any day over a Viking or Celt Y ancestor. Thank you.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

My Big Y results are in. You can now see what this NW European L M20 looks like both at Y111 and Big Y. A few surprises. At FTDNA on the Y Haplogroup L. Kit 491864.

I have a newly reported terminal SNP of SK1214. Gareth's initial analysis suggests that this is a line that split away from SK1212 and subsequently the Pontic greek L-PH8, 13,000 years before present. I'll leave Gareth to fill in more, when he has the spare time on his hands. It appears though gentlemen, that we have a newly discovered divergence in L1b at 13 kya.

SNPs
CTS3648+, CTS3654+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4783+, CTS5175+, CTS5884+, CTS623+, CTS6888+, CTS10834+, CTS2888+, CTS753+, F1209+, F1329+, F15+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F2048+, F2142+, F2155+, F2587+, F2688+, F2837+, F2985+, F3111+, F3136+, F3335+, F3556+, F3692+, F719+, L132+, L15+, L16+, L298+, L350+, L468+, L498+, L656+, M11+, M168+, M185+, M20+, M213+, M22+, M235+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P316+, PF2591+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF3561+, PF5524+, PF5528+, PF5531+, PF5532+, PF5536+, PF5554+, PF5557+, PF5563+, PF5564+, PF5566+, PF5586+, PF5683+, PF5689+, PF5692+, PF5693+, PF5699+, PF5705+, PF5715+, PF5717+, PF5720+, PF5723+, PF5729+, PF5737+, PF5743+, PF5756+, PF5757+, PF5771+, PF5773+, PF5779+, PF5790+, PF5791+, PF5804+, PF5810+, PF5813+, PF5815+, PF5821+, PF5823+, PF5830+, PF5832+, PF5839+, PF5841+, M294+, M295+, M299+, PAGES00026+, PAGES00081+, PF6469+, PF6470+, PF6477+, PF6479+, PF6520+, V168+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V241+, V250+, V52+, V9+, Y5561+, YSC0000227+, M42+, M61+, M76-, CTS10738-, PAGES00113-, PAGES00116-, M349-, M357-, PF6249-, P329-, M27-, F3987-, F2544-, F168-, CTS8901-, CTS3080-, CTS7154-

[GarethH]

To fill in some detail: of the 70-odd SNPs shared by all the 5 L-PH8 (Pontic) Big Y men but not the two L-M349 men, Norfolk L-M20 shares only a handful - SK1212, Y16370, Y16385, Y16390, Y16395 and a few that YFull haven't given names to.
So his line splits from the Pontic line almost as soon (within 1000 years or so) after it split from L-M349. Instead, Norfolk has 90 novel SNPs all to himself plus one named one, SK1214.
Approximate timings are: 14,000 ybp, L-SK1212 splits from L-M349, 13,000 ybp L-PH8 splits from L-SK1214.
With a TMRCA of 13,000 yrs L-SK1212 is the oldest 4th-tier subclade of L, much older than L-M349 (TMRCA approx 8,000 ybp) L-M357 (8,400 ybp) and L-M27 (6,800 ybp). What civilisations were flourishing in 11,000BC?

[A Norfolk L-M20]

To fill in some detail: of the 70-odd SNPs shared by all the 5 L-PH8 (Pontic) Big Y men but not the two L-M349 men, Norfolk L-M20 shares only a handful - SK1212, Y16370, Y16385, Y16390, Y16395 and a few that YFull haven't given names to.
So his line splits from the Pontic line almost as soon (within 1000 years or so) after it split from L-M349. Instead, Norfolk has 90 novel SNPs all to himself plus one named one, SK1214.
Approximate timings are: 14,000 ybp, L-SK1212 splits from L-M349, 13,000 ybp L-PH8 splits from L-SK1214.
With a TMRCA of 13,000 yrs L-SK1212 is the oldest 4th-tier subclade of L, much older than L-M349 (TMRCA approx 8,000 ybp) L-M357 (8,400 ybp) and L-M27 (6,800 ybp). What civilisations were flourishing in 11,000BC?

Pre-Pottery Neolithic A?

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Pre-Pottery Neolithic A?
I'll revise that following a little research. The TMRCA (to my current knowledge) is too early for any known agricultural event. Instead, I'm going to propose the fluctuations in climate towards the end of the last glaciation period.

[Anabasis]

Then its our tree for L1

...

[GarethH]

L-M27 (L1a1) and L-M357 (L1a2) are connected by M2481 (new L1a). T-M317 and T-M2481 were "formed" 18,400 years ago. At this level some of the TMRCA dates are several thousand years after the formed dates, in DNA terms this means long chains of equivalent SNPs.

This morning's news is that kit #361905 has joined the L Project and I have created a new L-SK1214 cluster.

[Anabasis]

L-M27 (L1a1) and L-M357 (L1a2) are connected by M2481 (new L1a). T-M317 and T-M2481 were "formed" 18,400 years ago. At this level some of the TMRCA dates are several thousand years after the formed dates, in DNA terms this means long chains of equivalent SNPs.

This morning's news is that kit #361905 has joined the L Project and I have created a new L-SK1214 cluster.


Updated

http://i.hizliresim.com/81QZMV.jpg (http://hizliresim.com/81QZMV)

[Arame]

Hi
What You think about L1b-Pontic cluster - Chaldes connection. The iron age presence of Chaldes is well attested in that region. Chaldes ( Khaldes/Halts ) survived until Middle Ages. They were neither IE, neither Kartvelian/Caucasian. It is possible that the elite of Urartu was Khaldic.

[Anabasis]

Hi
What You think about L1b-Pontic cluster - Chaldes connection. The iron age presence of Chaldes is well attested in that region. Chaldes ( Khaldes/Halts ) survived until Middle Ages. They were neither IE, neither Kartvelian/Caucasian. It is possible that the elite of Urartu was Khaldic.

Its possible as far as Pontic cluster also found in neighbourhoods of ancient Chaldia (Todays North Erzurum - Gumushane line). But absent part is Bayburt where thought that Chaldies' center was there. There arent any L samples from there and even now, thier neighbours (pontic populations) call them as Halt!!!

[Arame]

Btw the name Halt/Khald has some striking connections with Elam.
Elamites called themselves Haltamti.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

After receiving the Big Y, and Gareth's initial analysis, I blogged Story of L - my Big Y results (https://paulbrooker.posthaven.com/story-of-l-my-big-y-test-results). Since then, Gareth has been an excellent mole. He found that the other SK1214 to match my terminal SNP "was found in a research sample collected from the Makrani population who live along the south-west coast of Pakistan, near the border with Iran. The sample has been included in a number of studies including a ground-breaking one by Qamar et al in 2002".

Gareth also found that my nearest 67/111 marker STR cousin, my nearest Y cousin outside of England, was of East Iranian ancestry, tracing his paternal line to Birjand, South Khorasan, Iran - close to the present day border with Afghanistan. This is on the old Silk Road. His family had been in Birjand several generations, but apparently "moved there" with two brothers before that. At 67 markers we are genetic distance 14. At 111 markers we are genetic distance 28. I'm not sure what that correlates to TMRCA based on STR evidence alone, but it looks much closer than TMRCA with my Pontic cousins of 13,000 years before present. It would be great if he also had SK1214, and I understand that he is considering a future Big Y. I've talked to the tester on Facebook, and he is equally excited and intrigued by the new evidence and our connection.

Gareth has also pointed to a 67 marker test from a Portuguese tester. At 67 markers, he sits at a genetic distance of 22 from myself. "he has a distinctive value of 10 at DYS393. In the Qamar paper this value is found in the Parsi population".

On so little evidence there could be thousands of possible routes for my SK1214, but one that I'm presently imagining is: ancestral homeland Western Asia. Possibly carried by Parsi/traders to South Asia. Picked up by Portuguese seafarers / adventurers. Carried to England by the medieval Anglo-Portuguese Alliance. Don't take that too seriously a proposal, but one possible route?

[RCO]

We can find some similarities between our J1-FGC6064 branch and your L-SK1214, they have more or less the same age and we can find them in some common places like England, Portugal and around some Northern Middle Eastern areas, Caspian Sea/Northern Iran. It can be just a coincidence but let's pay attention to the facts.

[GarethH]

I've done some more digging on the background to SK1214 (and other SK SNPs).
Back in the early 2000s the Human Genome Diversity Project collected samples from a range of "minority" populations around the world including 20 men from the Makrani population in SW Pakistan. 4 of these men (20%!) belonged to hg L, two were L-M27 and two were L-M317. One of the two L-M317 (MAK002 or HGDP00131) was included in the earliest Y-SNP discovery tests at Stanford University and was the sample in which M274 was discovered. Despite numerous tests, we still haven't found a M274+ person in the L Project and M274 was removed from FTDNA's tree a few versions ago. It's still on the ISOGG tree though. The other L-M317 sample (MAK004 or HGDP00134) was only used to look for new Y-SNPs much later, and SK1214 was the only one found in just that sample (it couldn't have been a next generation search like Big Y). Two new SNPs (SK1215 and SK1216) were found in the L-M274 sample. I'm waiting for confirmation whether L-M274 is also a branch of L-SK1212 (I strongly suspect it is). I predict that one or more of Norfolk L-M20's 90 unnamed novel SNPs will connect L-SK1214 and L-M274 below SK1212 (if we ever find a L-M274 person to test!)

[Anabasis]

Btw the name Halt/Khald has some striking connections with Elam.
Elamites called themselves Haltamti.

Thanks for that valuable information. I didnt know that.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

I've done some more digging on the background to SK1214 (and other SK SNPs).
Back in the early 2000s the Human Genome Diversity Project collected samples from a range of "minority" populations around the world including 20 men from the Makrani population in SW Pakistan. 4 of these men (20%!) belonged to hg L, two were L-M27 and two were L-M317. One of the two L-M317 (MAK002 or HGDP00131) was included in the earliest Y-SNP discovery tests at Stanford University and was the sample in which M274 was discovered. Despite numerous tests, we still haven't found a M274+ person in the L Project and M274 was removed from FTDNA's tree a few versions ago. It's still on the ISOGG tree though. The other L-M317 sample (MAK004 or HGDP00134) was only used to look for new Y-SNPs much later, and SK1214 was the only one found in just that sample (it couldn't have been a next generation search like Big Y). Two new SNPs (SK1215 and SK1216) were found in the L-M274 sample. I'm waiting for confirmation whether L-M274 is also a branch of L-SK1212 (I strongly suspect it is). I predict that one or more of Norfolk L-M20's 90 unnamed novel SNPs will connect L-SK1214 and L-M274 below SK1212 (if we ever find a L-M274 person to test!)I'm confused. This Makrani population are they the Iranic people that speak Balochi in Makran? Or the Makrani people that live in Makran, but are of Arab-African ancestry?

[GarethH]

I'm confused. This Makrani population are they the Iranic people that speak Balochi in Makran? Or the Makrani people that live in Makran, but are of Arab-African ancestry?

They are the Balochi speaking ones.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

They are the Balochi speaking ones.Thanks Gareth! It made more sense. I see claims that the Balochi migrated from the Caspian region.

[jesus]

I'm confused. This Makrani population are they the Iranic people that speak Balochi in Makran? Or the Makrani people that live in Makran, but are of Arab-African ancestry?

They're basically Balochis that live on the coast(They speak Balochi, they cluster with Baloch, consider themselves Baloch). L-M317 is not found anywhere else in South Asia(Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka), I wouldn't be surprised of the Makrani L-M317 had recent west Asian ancestry. It's also absent in the Baloch from Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

[GarethH]

Apologies, folks - in my first rushed e-mail to Norfolk L-M20 when his Big Y results came out I mistyped the number of his critical SNP, and replicated the error in all my subsequent e-mails and postings. All the SK SNPs relevant to Hg L start with SK14, and the ones for L-M317 are:
SK1413 (17554098C) - equivalent to M317
SK1412 (16478565T) - between M317 and PH8, parallel to M349
SK1414 (16438509C) - below SK1412, parallel to PH8
SK1415 (21871168A) - below SK1412, parallel to PH8 and SK1414, equivalent to M274?
SK1416 (6909993C) - below SK1412, equivalent to M274 and SK1416?
I will arrange for the ISOGG tree to be updated shortly.

[Anabasis]

Apologies, folks - in my first rushed e-mail to Norfolk L-M20 when his Big Y results came out I mistyped the number of his critical SNP, and replicated the error in all my subsequent e-mails and postings. All the SK SNPs relevant to Hg L start with SK14, and the ones for L-M317 are:
SK1413 (17554098C) - equivalent to M317
SK1412 (16478565T) - between M317 and PH8, parallel to M349
SK1414 (16438509C) - below SK1412, parallel to PH8
SK1415 (21871168A) - below SK1412, parallel to PH8 and SK1414, equivalent to M274?
SK1416 (6909993C) - below SK1412, equivalent to M274 and SK1416?
I will arrange for the ISOGG tree to be updated shortly.


I updated L1 tree according to your instructions. If there is something wrong please inform me.

http://i.hizliresim.com/r96rR7.jpg (http://hizliresim.com/r96rR7)

Sources: yfull L-M22 tree and Gareth's posts

[GarethH]

The ISOGG Tree has now been updated http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpL.html
L-SK1415 is L1b2a, L-PH8 is L1b2b and L-SK1414 is L1b2c.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I suspect there could be a link between L-SK1415 and L-SK1414 as they were both found in Makrani Balochi samples in SW Pakistan.

[MfA]

Can anyone check what clade would be FTDNA #420786?


L-M20 11 23 15 10 13-17 11 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-9 11 11 23 16 19 31 15-15-16-16 11 9 17-21 15 15 16 16 31-33 11 10

[Anabasis]

Can anyone check what clade would be FTDNA #420786?


L-M20 11 23 15 10 13-17 11 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-9 11 11 23 16 19 31 15-15-16-16 11 9 17-21 15 15 16 16 31-33 11 10

Its so clear that its in pontic cluster. PH8.

[Anabasis]

Could you tell him to join L project? https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-L/default.aspx?section=yresults

[Caspian]

Can anyone check what clade would be FTDNA #420786?


L-M20 11 23 15 10 13-17 11 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-9 11 11 23 16 19 31 15-15-16-16 11 9 17-21 15 15 16 16 31-33 11 10


Is he Kurd from Dersim? What is his ethnicity?

[Caspian]

I've signed important (more than 5%) L1b-Pontic Cluster frequencies on the map.

http://i.imgur.com/xIh9J7d.png
(X is known oldest location of my paternal ancestors)

Kabardino-Balkaria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabardino-Balkaria)
Kabardins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabardians): ~5% (Nasidze et al.2003)
Balkars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkars): ~5% (Battaglia et al.2008)

Georgia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country))
Abkhazians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazians): ~5% (Yunusbayev et al. 2011)
Svans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svans): ~7% (FTDNA, samples from Svanetia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svaneti))
Mingrelians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mingrelians): ~13% (FTDNA, samples from Samegrelo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samegrelo))
Lazes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_people): ~11% (FTDNA, samples from Georgia, Artvin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artvin), Rize (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rize) and Trabzon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabzon))

North-East Anatolia
Pontic Greeks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greeks): ~18% (FTDNA, samples from Trabzon, Gümüşhane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCm%C3%BC%C5%9Fhane), Bayburt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayburt) and Erzurum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzurum))
Hemshins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemshin_peoples): ~26% (FTDNA, samples from Rize and Artvin)
Turks from Central and Eastern Black Sea Region: ~12% (Cinnioglu et al. 2004)

Dagestan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagestan)
Avars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avars_(Caucasus)): ~10% (Yunusbayev et al. 2011)
Mountain Jews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Jews): 20% (Yunusbayev et al. 2011)

*Mountain Jews have a specific haploptype. Haplotype of Mountain Jews isn't called as "Pontic Cluster" on FTDNA Haplogroup L project, but Mountain Jewish samples are clustered with Pontic Cluster on all phylogenetic trees. Closest matches of Mountain Jews belong to Pontic Cluster. I've listed their closest matches on the Ysearch as below:
http://i.imgur.com/ECUf4YE.png
His all matches belong to Pontic Cluster. I think Mountain Jewish haplotype is a kind of Pontic Cluster or related with Pontic Cluster.
Interesting that L1b only found among Mountain Jews from Dagestan, but not among Mountain Jews from Azerbaijan. L1b's subclades aren't common among Jewish communities therefore I think this Mountain Jewish L1b is a Judaized native lineage in Caucasus.

[Caspian]

This is general distribution of haplogroup L1b-M317.
http://i.imgur.com/BfOsjtb.jpg

The most commonly area of L1b-M317 (area of Pontic Cluster) is same with green region of this map.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Various_Caucasian_peoples_2nd_millenium_BC.svg
Caucasian tribes at the 2nd millenium BCA.

[Caspian]

Some L1b frequencies from Karafet et al. 2016 paper.
http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v61/n3/full/jhg2015132a.html

Turk: 106/6 = ~6%
Mountain Jew: 17/2 = ~11%
Saudi Arabian: 32/1 = ~3%
Syrian: 81/1 = ~1%
Bulgarian: 26/1 = ~4%
Greek: 42/1 = ~2%

Turk, Bulgarian and Greek samples probably belong to Pontic Cluster .

[MfA]

Here's list of Kurdish Y-DNA L STR haplotypes

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qah8Q9Ct9w_R4ljHv1VuIHfIOVqcO30nD3py-3SmmEI/edit?usp=sharing

overall L is 3.5% 14/394
L1b is 2.0% 8/394


Is he Kurd from Dersim? What is his ethnicity?

His autosomal profile is Armenian. I've no idea, if he id himself Armenian or Turkish, he's from Diyarbakir.

[Caspian]

Here's list of Kurdish Y-DNA L STR haplotypes

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qah8Q9Ct9w_R4ljHv1VuIHfIOVqcO30nD3py-3SmmEI/edit?usp=sharing

overall L is 3.5% 14/394
L1b is 2.0% 8/394

His autosomal profile is Armenian. I've no idea, if he id himself Armenian or Turkish, he's from Diyarbakir.

He seems to belong to Pontic cluster.

What do you think about 292179, Kurdish Alevi? He is my closest match on 37 markers. My closest matches on 12 markers still didn't upgrade to 37 markers, they might be my new closest matchs on 37 markers if they upgrade to 37 markers. 292179 is my closest match on 37 markers for now. He has also a Mingrelian from west Georgia, a Pontic Greek from Erzurum and a Svan from mountainous part of north Georgia closest matches. We are (Azerbaijani, Kurdish, Pontic Greek, Svan, Mingrelian) clustered together in phylogenetic trees according to our 37 markers (I generally do not trust the clustering of str markers. Big Y and deep Snp analysis give real clusters). How did this kind lineage occur among Kurds? Do you have any theory?

[Caspian]

Haplogroup L (predominantly L1b-M317) frequencies in different regions of Georgia are interesting.

West Georgia

Gali (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gali_(town))/Abkhazia: 20% L (40% G2a, 30% J2, 10% R1a) Population of this region is predominantly Abkhazian.
Chokhatauri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokhatauri)/Guria: 14% L (36% J2, 21% G2a, 21% J1, 7% R1b) Population of this region is predominantly Laz and Mingrelian.
Martvili (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martvili)/Mingrelia: 13% L (50% G2a, 13% J2, 13% R1b, 13% Other) Population of this region is predominantly Mingrelian.
Abasha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abasha)/Mingrelia: 12% L (29% J2, 24% G2a, 12% R1b, 6% J1, 18% Other) Population of this region is predominantly Mingrelian.
Khelvachauri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khelvachauri)/Adjara 0% L (40% G2a, 40% J2, 13% R1b, 7% J1) Population of this region is predominantly Laz and Adjarian Georgian.

North Georgia

Lentekhi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lentekhi)/Svanetia: 6% L (76% G2a, 18%J2) Population of this region is predominantly Svan.
Ambrolauri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrolauri)/Svanetia: 0% L (40% G2a, 35% J2, 10% R1b, 5% J1, 10% Other) Population of this region is predominantly Svan.

Central Georgia

Baghdati (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdati)/Imereti: 11%L (56% G2a, 11%J2, 6% R1b, 6% J1, 11%Other) Population of this region is predominantly Georgian.
Terjola (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terjola)/Imereti: 10% L (45% G2a, 35% J2, 10% R1b, 5% Other) Population of this region is predominantly Georgian.
Khoni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoni)/Imereti: 0% L (38% J2, 31% G2a, 15% R1b, 8% R1a, 8% J1) Population of this region is predominantly Georgian.
Khashuri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khashuri)/Shida Kartli: 0% L (36% G2a, 21% J2, 14% R1b, 7% R1a, 7% J1, 14% Other) Population of this region is predominantly Georgian.
Kaspi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaspi)/Shida Kartli: 0% L (44% G2a, 38% J2, 6% R1b, 6% J1, 6% Other) Population of this region is predominantly Georgian.

East Georgia
Gardabani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardabani)/Kvemo Kartli: 10% L (20% R1b, 20% J2, 20% J1, 10% G2a, 20% Other) Population of this region is predominantly Azerbaijani (Qarapapaq tribe).
Gurjaani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurjaani)/ Kakheti: 6% L (29% G2a, 29% J2, 24% R1b, 12% Other) Population of this region is predominantly Georgian.
Omalo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omalo)/Kakheti: 7% L (69% J2, 3% G2a, 3% R1b, 17% Other) Population of this region is predominantly Georgian.
Kvareli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvareli)/Kakheti: 0% L (42% G2a, 42% J2, 5% R1b, 5% J1, 5% Other) Population of this region is predominantly Georgian.
Tianeti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianeti)/Mtskheta-Mtianeti: 0% L (32% J2, 26% G2a, 21% R1a, 5% J1, 16% Other) Population of this region is predominantly Georgian.

South Georgia
Adigeni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adigeni)/Samtskhe-Javakheti: 9% L (45% R1b, 18% G2a, 9% J2, 18% Other) Population of this region is predominantly Georgian, Armenian and Meskhetian Turk.

Source is Tarkhnishvili et al. 2014.

Haplogroup L (generally L1b) is found mostly in West Georgia according to this results. Haplogroup L frequencies of West Georgia and Northeast Anatolia are closer. Haplogroup L is found at close and regular frequencies between Abkhazia and Erzurum (Abkhazia, Svanetia, Mingrelia, Batum, Artvin, Rize, Trabzon, Bayburt, Gümüşhane, Kars and Erzurum etc.) i guess. It has high frequencies with G2a and J2 in these regions.

[Anabasis]

Caspian do you know which subsclades of G2a and J2a found in Western Georgia? I suppose that L should moved to south caucasia and NE Turkey with someother haplogroups from somewhere in middle east around 3000-3500 yars ago.

[XooR]

Caspian do you know which subsclades of G2a and J2a found in Western Georgia? I suppose that L should moved to south caucasia and NE Turkey with someother haplogroups from somewhere in middle east around 3000-3500 yars ago.

You can follow Georgian Y-DNA from below website also they have some heat maps for haplogroups.
http://www.rodstvo.ru/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t5858-0.html


http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee370/xoorslug/6f6e91024c45_zpsyokr8pih.jpg (http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/xoorslug/media/6f6e91024c45_zpsyokr8pih.jpg.html)
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee370/xoorslug/3ca73c5cf868_zpsvufhdext.jpg (http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/xoorslug/media/3ca73c5cf868_zpsvufhdext.jpg.html)
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee370/xoorslug/34737ac3c2ce_zpsphfhgh5e.jpg (http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/xoorslug/media/34737ac3c2ce_zpsphfhgh5e.jpg.html)
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee370/xoorslug/93334b555ca3_zpsujr1qrz1.jpg (http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/xoorslug/media/93334b555ca3_zpsujr1qrz1.jpg.html)
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee370/xoorslug/37d56b9a2a68_zpsxqc7saox.jpg (http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/xoorslug/media/37d56b9a2a68_zpsxqc7saox.jpg.html)
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee370/xoorslug/96c12c55e850_zpsnxs5wjsl.jpg (http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/xoorslug/media/96c12c55e850_zpsnxs5wjsl.jpg.html)
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee370/xoorslug/dddecaf0860f_zpsbf9gizv3.jpg (http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/xoorslug/media/dddecaf0860f_zpsbf9gizv3.jpg.html)

[Caspian]

Caspian do you know which subsclades of G2a and J2a found in Western Georgia? I suppose that L should moved to south caucasia and NE Turkey with someother haplogroups from somewhere in middle east around 3000-3500 yars ago.

I haven't got any information about it. Those heat maps can be helpful.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

L1b2c (L-SK1414) known distribution:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8418/30351202461_c87bc141bf_b.jpg

Modified from: [/url]
Eurasia location map - Physical (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AEurasia_location_map_-_Physical.jpg) [CC BY-SA 4.0 ([url]http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0)], by Hellerick (Own work), from Wikimedia Commons

[A Norfolk L-M20]

FT-DNA have "upgraded" my haplotype to include SNP SK1412, and have now declared my Y-DNA to be L-SK1412, making my Y-DNA L1b2. Previously it was stuck at L-M22, even following Y111 and Big Y. I see that they've presumed me to be positive for M317.

Meanwhile at YFull, I'm still designated L-M317*

Gareth of the Y Haplogroup L project kindly found me a match with SK1414 in SW Pakistan, on an old survey. On ISOGG 2016 current, that takes me (under investigation) to L-SK1414, or L1b2c.

If only we had more testers from Iran, Pakistan, and Afghanistan!

[GarethH]

Yes, I've just been looking at their updated Haplotree (which I haven't been consulted on....). Below SK1412 is PH8 and then some of its branches. FTDNA have also started naming SNPs found in Big Y tests, using a BY prefix. I've asked if there is a list of these available with their locations. Next step is to get a SNP Panel developed, the aim will be around 150 SNPs for around $120.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

And now I see that FT-DNA have updated my haplogroup to:

L-SK1414

Meanwhile, still at L-M317* at YFull.com.

YFull have just announced that their L will have L: 18 SNPs, and 5 subclades added in the upcoming update.

[GarethH]

And now I see that FT-DNA have updated my haplogroup to:

L-SK1414.

That's because I asked them to include SK1414 in the L SNP Panel under development. Their initial proposals were good but included too many deep level SNPs (equivalent to M20, M27, M357) but the revised version should have a bigger range of informative ones. As well as SK1414 there is FGC51036 which is the first on your list of "novel" SNPs.
Overall there will be around 161 SNPs, coverage as follows:
L-PH8 22
L-M349 10
rest of L-M317 16
L-SK1418 (joins L-M27 and L-M357) 4
L-M27/M76 50
L-M357 50
L-M595 5
L-M20/M22 4
I haven't been advised of the proposed release date - look out for announcements!



Meanwhile, still at L-M317* at YFull.com.

YFull have just announced that their L will have L: 18 SNPs, and 5 subclades added in the upcoming update.

It's just been released - the new subclades refine L-M2398 which is one of the 2 major branches of L-M357.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

That's because I asked them to include SK1414 in the L SNP Panel under development. Their initial proposals were good but included too many deep level SNPs (equivalent to M20, M27, M357) but the revised version should have a bigger range of informative ones. As well as SK1414 there is FGC51036 which is the first on your list of "novel" SNPs.
Overall there will be around 161 SNPs, coverage as follows:
L-PH8 22
L-M349 10
rest of L-M317 16
L-SK1418 (joins L-M27 and L-M357) 4
L-M27/M76 50
L-M357 50
L-M595 5
L-M20/M22 4
I haven't been advised of the proposed release date - look out for announcements!



It's just been released - the new subclades refine L-M2398 which is one of the 2 major branches of L-M357.

You are an awesome Group Administrator Gareth!

[vettor]

You are an awesome Group Administrator Gareth!

Agree,............as he also does the T haplogroup

[Anabasis]

Gareth the Great.

[jesus]

In 23andm's new Y-DNA tree, they made me L-M22 for a weird reason. I was L2* previously. In my Geno 2.0. Upload to FTDNA I was L-M317 but now I'm now Y-DNA F(lol?). In the FTDNA project I'm still L1b*, based on 37 STR values. Any thoughts ?

[Anabasis]

In 23andm's new Y-DNA tree, they made me L-M22 for a weird reason. I was L2* previously. In my Geno 2.0. Upload to FTDNA I was L-M317 but now I'm now Y-DNA F(lol?). In the FTDNA project I'm still L1b*, based on 37 STR values. Any thoughts ?

May i ask your FTDNA kit number. You can send it via private message.

[Anabasis]

FTDNA changed my SNP from Y18889 to L-M22 although those SNPs detected via BIGY results. Something happened strange. 3 company changed thier haplogroup defentions in sametime. Or they decided to remove the Yfull SNP names or may be L1b even not L :) Lol.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Mine still showing M20, M22, SK1412, and finally SK1414.

[GarethH]

There are two new L-M317 kits on Yfull - YF07794 and YF08142. Does anyone know who they are?

[Anabasis]

There are two new L-M317 kits on Yfull - YF07794 and YF08142. Does anyone know who they are?

Most proobably 1-M349 and 1-SK1414 from druzi DNA project.

[Sangarius]

I've received an email from FTDNA about the availability of the new L - M20 SNP Pack and ordered it today for my grandfather's kit.
Unfortunately he won't hear the results. Tomorrow will be 3 months since he passed away.

[Anabasis]

I've received an email from FTDNA about the availability of the new L - M20 SNP Pack and ordered it today for my grandfather's kit.
Unfortunately he won't hear the results. Tomorrow will be 3 months since he passed away.

Rest in Peace.

[Anabasis]

There are two new L-M317 kits on Yfull - YF07794 and YF08142. Does anyone know who they are?

Gareth Druzi project will upload thier 4 L BIG Y into Yfull in neext version of Yfull tree (5.03) Those 2 sample are both M349 and not part of Druzi project.

[GarethH]

Gareth Druzi project will upload thier 4 L BIG Y into Yfull in neext version of Yfull tree (5.03) Those 2 sample are both M349 and not part of Druzi project.

Thanks - I know who YF08142 is but not YF07794.

With today's 5.02 upgrade YFull now splits L-M349 (which they call L-BY12542) and L-SK1412 (a.k.a. L-Y16385) at 12,800 years ago. The L-M349 patriarch lived only around 7,000 years ago whilst L-SK1412 split into two as long ago as 11,700 years ago.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Thank you both for the update.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

I'm a little surprised that they have only two M349. Very pleased that the Druze Project released the L samples to YFull. I recently had a comment on my blog "We have more updated information about L hapolgroup and I hope you contact with me by email so I can show you our project and I can explain to you our kit in yfull" L arab project. I haven't been able to source this project.

Edit: Just noticed that YFull have taken me from L-M317 to L-Y16385*.

[GarethH]

I'm a little surprised that they have only two M349.

There are no academic L-M349 samples with test results in a format that YFull can use. As far as I can tell there have been 5 L-M349 kits tested with Big Y, two of whom are now on YFull with at least one (possibly two) Druze kit(s) to be added. At least one set of results has gone to Full Genomes as most of the M349 equivalent SNPs have FGC numbers (which YFull have adopted), but FGC doesn't have a public tree so I don't know for certain whose results they have.

[Anabasis]

Thanks - I know who YF08142 is but not YF07794.

With today's 5.02 upgrade YFull now splits L-M349 (which they call L-BY12542) and L-SK1412 (a.k.a. L-Y16385) at 12,800 years ago. The L-M349 patriarch lived only around 7,000 years ago whilst L-SK1412 split into two as long ago as 11,700 years ago.

Gareth could you tell us where YF08142 is from?

[GarethH]

Gareth could you tell us where YF08142 is from?

I'll ask him to put his ancestral origins onto YFull. He's northern European, with no known ancestral connections to the Mediterranean region.

[jesus]

Just got my SNP pack results. I'm L-SK1414.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Just got my SNP pack results. I'm L-SK1414.

Excellent! Welcome to the family.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

I notice on the Y HG L project there are two L-SK1414 in other groups now. One in group 27 with a provenance of Iran, and another in group 29 with a provenance of USA.

[GarethH]

I notice on the Y HG L project there are two L-SK1414 in other groups now. One in group 27 with a provenance of Iran, and another in group 29 with a provenance of USA.

Quite a few results have appeared in the past 24 hours. I've started moving groups and kits around. Group 27 is now 17 and the lone L-SK1414 in group 29 has been moved to group 11 (for now, until a subgroup structure emerges for L-SK1414).

The most interesting result is that the "Rhine-Danube" cluster in L-M349 (group 31) is positive for B374 which was first found in an anonymous Tatar sample.

[Sangarius]

My grandfathers results are in, it's L-PH2079. Can somebody tell me about the distribution of that SNP?

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Sangarius, I'm sure that one of the other members here with more knowledge and understanding of the Pontic Alp clusters will soon provide you with answers. I am pleased to see your grandfather's results here!


Quite a few results have appeared in the past 24 hours. I've started moving groups and kits around. Group 27 is now 17 and the lone L-SK1414 in group 29 has been moved to group 11 (for now, until a subgroup structure emerges for L-SK1414).

The most interesting result is that the "Rhine-Danube" cluster in L-M349 (group 31) is positive for B374 which was first found in an anonymous Tatar sample.

That is great news, and I have looked at the new L-SK1414 groups. Such expansion since I took that Big Y last year, and you spotted the SNP on the survey in Pakistan. Well done, and thank you to the other testers. On STR, I still think that the Birjand, Iran sample appears to be closest to mine, and the other English samples.

The news on B374 is indeed tantalising. I'm such a novice, but it would be tempting to imagine a Steppe origin for some of the European M349's.

[Anabasis]

My grandfathers results are in, it's L-PH2079. Can somebody tell me about the distribution of that SNP?

If you look at yfull L tree ( https://yfull.com/tree/L/ ) you can see that there are 2 PH2079 sample who are Pontic greek originally from same village in Erzurum Pasinler. There are 3000 of years TMRCA between them. One is clustered with hemshin people but the other one is not according to thier STR values. In my opinion it may point that hemshin cluster split from this lineage but not represent all PH2079s. I guess that this lineage spread all of eastern blacksea region. I m not in this lineage. My SNP is PH1099 which is sister to PH2079. Both your grandfather and my paterline lineage comes from same area. Thus it may means that both PH1099 and PH2079 have lived togather for thousands of years but some PH2079s moved south and east and settled in Erzurum and Rize or, your paterline lineage moved to Trabzon more later and meet with thier PH1099 cousins.

[Caspian]

I've not tested SNP patch yet, but I think that I belong to L-PH2079 too. Probably I am in the same cluster with Pontic Greeks from Erzurum,Gümüşhane and Bayburt. I have two super match from this area. They are a Pontic Greek from Horasan/Erzurum and a Turkish(?) from Ispir/Erzurum. I have also a super match from Athens/Greece at the YHRD.org and his ancestor was probably Pontic Greek from the same area.

[Anabasis]

Gareth are there any SNPs under PH2079 which is tested in SNP pack?

[GarethH]

Gareth are there any SNPs under PH2079 which is tested in SNP pack?

Yes:
BY13002 (7561590 A->G) - found in one Big Y kit
PH1714 (1547329 A->G) - found in one Big Y kit and one anonymous research sample
PH3523 (17925757 C->T) - found in the same men as PH1714 but is coming up as a "no call" in all the L-M20 pack results posted to date (11 so far)
The two Big Y kits are the two L-PH2079 men on YFull. The research sample was from Turkey.

[Anabasis]

Yes:
BY13002 (7561590 A->G) - found in one Big Y kit
PH1714 (1547329 A->G) - found in one Big Y kit and one anonymous research sample
PH3523 (17925757 C->T) - found in the same men as PH1714 but is coming up as a "no call" in all the L-M20 pack results posted to date (11 so far)
The two Big Y kits are the two L-PH2079 men on YFull. The research sample was from Turkey.



If all of those SNPs tested in SNP pack then Sangarius' negative for all of those SNPs which may make him a different branch under PH2079 or he have some common snps with one of 2 BIG Y samples' novel SNPs which is not tested in pack.

[GarethH]

The most interesting result is that the "Rhine-Danube" cluster in L-M349 (group 31) is positive for B374 which was first found in an anonymous Tatar sample.




The news on B374 is indeed tantalising. I'm such a novice, but it would be tempting to imagine a Steppe origin for some of the European M349's.

We have one kit in group 31 from the right part of Russia - kit 243777. He only has 37 markers but he is close enough to the rest of the Rhine-Danube folk that I suspect both he and the anonymous L-B374 could be descendants of the "Volga Germans"
(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Germans) who migrated from the Rhineland to southern Russia in the 18th century.

[laert]

Sangarius, as Anabasis told you, there are two PH2079, who are Pontic Greeks and whose ancestors migrated from Pasinler to Georgia in 1813, and they are both my grandfathers (the kits 373682 and 373683 at FTDNA). I have both BigY and YFull results for them, but I didn't order SNP Pack. Overall, we have 16 members of our FTDNA Project, who are PH8, and all of their ancestors migrated from Trabzon/Erzurum/Gumushane/Horasan/Bayburt area to Georgia 200 years ago.

[laert]

Dear Gareth and everybody,

We (admins of Pontic & Anatolian Greeks DNA Project at FTDNA - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/russiangreeks/dna-results) have Y17 STR results of 38 Pontic Greeks made in Moscow-based DNA lab, and we transferred saliva samples of these 38 kits to FTDNA. Now we are planning to order Y12 STR tests for them at FTDNA in order later to be able to make deeper analysis. You may see the Y17 STR results attached - there are 17 of them, which are L1b-M317 (and with quite high probability PH8).

We are also planning to order Y12 STR test for another pack of 67 Pontic Greeks (the kits are already delivered to FTDNA). We think that about 15-20% of them (10-13 kits) will be L1b-M317 too. This should happen, probably, next week.

It's quite big order for us, and for the moment we have only our own money to pay for it, so we would appreciate it if you could donate to our Project to help us.

Thanks in advance!

Sincerely,

Laert

14371

[Sangarius]

If all of those SNPs tested in SNP pack then Sangarius' negative for all of those SNPs which may make him a different branch under PH2079 or he have some common snps with one of 2 BIG Y samples' novel SNPs which is not tested in pack.

The SNP-pack only shows BY13002 and PH3523 under PH2079. PH1714 is tested, but it's not under PH2079 according to FTDNA, but a different branch. My grandpa is negative for BY13002 and got a no call for PH3523.

[jesus]

Some new L-M317 samples were found in ethnic Russians, Cossacks and Turkic groups from central Asia and Siberia.

Supplementary Figure 4. Phylogeographic summary of haplogroup L-M317 diversity in West Asia.Inset: L-M317 frequency distribution map, which shows that haplogroup L-M317 is rare in most West Asian populations, except for the Laz. Populations in the Y-STR network are grouped by geography, as the legend indicates: West Caucasus – Abkhazes, Avars, (Balanovsky et al., 2011); Transcaucasia – Laz, Imeretins, Armenians Adygei, Armenians Krasnodar, Armenians Don (this study); A-Ararat, A-Gardman, A-Van, A-Sasun (Lowery et al., 2013); East Caucasus - Lezghins (Balanovsky et al., 2011); Central Caucasus - Ossets Iron (Balanovsky et al., 2011); West Asia – Iranians SE, Iranians NW, South Iran, Esfahan (Iran), Kordestan (Iran), Lebanese Maronite N, Lebanese Maronite (Mount), Lebanese Maronite S, Lebanese Shiite N, Pashtun-Kunduz (Haber et al., 2011; Cristofaro et al., 2013); Makrani (Cristofaro et al., 2013); Central Asia - Uzbek-Jawzjan (Cristofaro et al., 2013); Karakalpaks (our unpublished data); Siberia – Altai-Kizhi, Evenks (our unpublished data); Russians – Terek Cossacs, Russians Ryazan (our unpublished data).The Y-STR network did not identify a Laz-specific cluster and many Laz haplotypes were shared with other ethnic groups or are linked by one-step neighbors.Supplementary material 1 (TIF 326kb



http://i65.tinypic.com/2mo9uz9.png

[Anabasis]

Some new L-M317 samples were found in ethnic Russians, Cossacks and Turkic groups from central Asia and Siberia.

Supplementary Figure 4. Phylogeographic summary of haplogroup L-M317 diversity in West Asia.Inset: L-M317 frequency distribution map, which shows that haplogroup L-M317 is rare in most West Asian populations, except for the Laz. Populations in the Y-STR network are grouped by geography, as the legend indicates: West Caucasus – Abkhazes, Avars, (Balanovsky et al., 2011); Transcaucasia – Laz, Imeretins, Armenians Adygei, Armenians Krasnodar, Armenians Don (this study); A-Ararat, A-Gardman, A-Van, A-Sasun (Lowery et al., 2013); East Caucasus - Lezghins (Balanovsky et al., 2011); Central Caucasus - Ossets Iron (Balanovsky et al., 2011); West Asia – Iranians SE, Iranians NW, South Iran, Esfahan (Iran), Kordestan (Iran), Lebanese Maronite N, Lebanese Maronite (Mount), Lebanese Maronite S, Lebanese Shiite N, Pashtun-Kunduz (Haber et al., 2011; Cristofaro et al., 2013); Makrani (Cristofaro et al., 2013); Central Asia - Uzbek-Jawzjan (Cristofaro et al., 2013); Karakalpaks (our unpublished data); Siberia – Altai-Kizhi, Evenks (our unpublished data); Russians – Terek Cossacs, Russians Ryazan (our unpublished data).The Y-STR network did not identify a Laz-specific cluster and many Laz haplotypes were shared with other ethnic groups or are linked by one-step neighbors.Supplementary material 1 (TIF 326kb



Laz haplotypes shared by thier neighbourhods. But on the toher hand dendogram shows that Central Asian and Siberian Haplotypes have distance with Laz ones. Most probably Siberian and Central asian Haplotypes likely M317>M349, M317>SK1414 or a new branch under M317 while Laz Branches are M317>PH8. All of those haplotypes have common ancestor lived 12000-13000 years ago.

https://yfull.com/tree/L/

[Caspian]

I've noticed that there are a lot of new Pontic Greek samples on the FTDNA. I have new Pontic Greek matches from Erzurum and Gümüşhane. My matches are mostly ethnically Pontic Greek and they are mostly from Erzurum.

[Caspian]

Gareth, I have a question to you.

What do you think about DYS448=20 in Pontic Cluster? It seems very rare mutation for L1b.
There are only 6 samples with this value among 72 samples of Pontic Cluster. Modal haplotype of DYS448 is 19 and there are 65 samples with DYS448=19. There is only 1 sample with DYS448=18 (A Megrelian from Georgia). This str marker seems very slow for L1b.

DYS448=20 samples are here.

266961 Chechen Republic, Melordoy-Asuhi gar Russian Federation L-M317 11 23 15 10 13-16 11 12 13 13 13 30 16 9-9 11 11 24 16 20 33 15-15-15-15 10 9 17-21 15 14 17 16 33-33 11 10
320860 Chechen Republic, Acholoy-Utsi gar Russian Federation L-M317 11 23 15 10 13-17 11 12 13 13 13 30 16 9-9 11 11 24 16 20 32 15-15-15-15 10 9 17-21 15 14 17 16 33-33 11 10
309493 Chechen Republic, Dyshniy-Amirkhan gar Russian Federation L-M20 11 23 15 10 13-17 11 12 13 13 13 30 16 9-9 11 11 24 16 20 32 15-15-16-16 10 9 17-21 15 14 17 16 31-34 11 10
258968 Chikovani Georgia L-M20 11 23 16 10 13-18 11 12 12 13 13 30 15 9-9 11 11 23 16 20 32 16-16-16-16 10 9 17-21 15 14 16 17 31-31 12 10
181374 Miho Dimitrov Mirchev (1872-1941) Gen. Tochevo, BG Bulgaria L-M317 11 23 15 10 13-17 11 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 24 16 20 32 15-15-16-17 10 9 17-21 15 14 17 14 31-31 11 10
278749 Qarapapaq Azerbaijani Azerbaijan L-M317 11 23 15 10 13-17 11 12 13 13 13 29 15 9-9 11 11 24 15 20 30 15-15-16-16 10 9 17-21 15 14 18 15 31-31 11 10

There are 3 Chechen, 1 Svan and 1 Bulgarian samples. I am also is one of them. I saw this haplotype among Avars and Abkhazians outside of FTDNA project. This haplotype is only found in Caucasus, I didn't see any sample with this haplotype in out of Caucasus. Note: This Bulgarian sample has clear North Caucasian deep ancestor in last 1000 year according to his ancestral story. He is already clustered with Chechen samples on all phylotrees. I talked to him. Is DYS448=20 can be sign of a special cluster in Pontic Cluster? Are this samples descendants of one ancestor?

[laert]

We would like to order several FTDNA BigY tests for the L1b kits from our Pontic & Anatolian Greeks Project as long as the discount works (the price is $395 now). I would like to ask everybody to share your thoughts (on which kits should be tested as the first priority) and funds (if possible).

Dear Gareth, what is your opinion?

[Serge1]

We would like to order several FTDNA BigY tests for the L1b kits from our Pontic & Anatolian Greeks Project as long as the discount works (the price is $395 now). I would like to ask everybody to share your thoughts (on which kits should be tested as the first priority) and funds (if possible).

Dear Gareth, what is your opinion?

it would be nice to do BigY to my Laz match on FTDNA.
Sergei

[AbdoNumen]

Some new L-M317 samples were found in ethnic Russians, Cossacks and Turkic groups from central Asia and Siberia.

Supplementary Figure 4. Phylogeographic summary of haplogroup L-M317 diversity in West Asia.Inset: L-M317 frequency distribution map, which shows that haplogroup L-M317 is rare in most West Asian populations, except for the Laz. Populations in the Y-STR network are grouped by geography, as the legend indicates: West Caucasus – Abkhazes, Avars, (Balanovsky et al., 2011); Transcaucasia – Laz, Imeretins, Armenians Adygei, Armenians Krasnodar, Armenians Don (this study); A-Ararat, A-Gardman, A-Van, A-Sasun (Lowery et al., 2013); East Caucasus - Lezghins (Balanovsky et al., 2011); Central Caucasus - Ossets Iron (Balanovsky et al., 2011); West Asia – Iranians SE, Iranians NW, South Iran, Esfahan (Iran), Kordestan (Iran), Lebanese Maronite N, Lebanese Maronite (Mount), Lebanese Maronite S, Lebanese Shiite N, Pashtun-Kunduz (Haber et al., 2011; Cristofaro et al., 2013); Makrani (Cristofaro et al., 2013); Central Asia - Uzbek-Jawzjan (Cristofaro et al., 2013); Karakalpaks (our unpublished data); Siberia – Altai-Kizhi, Evenks (our unpublished data); Russians – Terek Cossacs, Russians Ryazan (our unpublished data).The Y-STR network did not identify a Laz-specific cluster and many Laz haplotypes were shared with other ethnic groups or are linked by one-step neighbors.Supplementary material 1 (TIF 326kb



http://i65.tinypic.com/2mo9uz9.png

Which study is this from?

Edit: Think I found it: Genetic differentiation between upland and lowland populations shapes the Y-chromosomal landscape of West Asia by Balanovsky et al

[jesus]

Congrats we finally have an ancient sample from tepe hissar, Iran. They were mostly Iran Neolithic with 9% EHG. He was mtDNA W3b.

[Anabasis]

Congrats we finally have an ancient sample from tepe hissar, Iran. They were mostly Iran Neolithic with 9% EHG. He was mtDNA W3b.

Isnt it L2? But not L1b?

[jesus]

Isnt it L2? But not L1b?

Few L1’s(other ancient samples) and one L2(which should be L1b AKA L-M317)

[GarethH]

Few L1’s(other ancient samples) and one L2(which should be L1b AKA L-M317)

I can't find a note of which tree version they are using, but as they have labelled L-M27 as L1a1 (e.g. HG03686) and L-M357 as L1a2 (e.g. HG03672), I think L2 must be L-L595 not L-M317.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Congrats we finally have an ancient sample from tepe hissar, Iran. They were mostly Iran Neolithic with 9% EHG. He was mtDNA W3b.

What study is this please? Any online source?

[AlparslanSancar]

In some places I read that L2 is L595.

[GarethH]

What study is this please? Any online source?

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/31/292581

The article is mainly concerned with autosomal DNA but there are Y-DNA and mtDNA calls in the supplementary info. Unfortunately the Y-DNA haplogroups are given in the SNP-less form (L1a, L1b etc) which is ambiguous without a reference to a tree and version/date.

[AbdoNumen]

I've signed important (more than 5%) L1b-Pontic Cluster frequencies on the map.

http://i.imgur.com/xIh9J7d.png
(X is known oldest location of my paternal ancestors)
.........................

Mountain Jews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Jews): 20% (Yunusbayev et al. 2011)

*Mountain Jews have a specific haploptype. Haplotype of Mountain Jews isn't called as "Pontic Cluster" on FTDNA Haplogroup L project, but Mountain Jewish samples are clustered with Pontic Cluster on all phylogenetic trees. Closest matches of Mountain Jews belong to Pontic Cluster. I've listed their closest matches on the Ysearch as below:

Interesting that L1b only found among Mountain Jews from Dagestan, but not among Mountain Jews from Azerbaijan. L1b's subclades aren't common among Jewish communities therefore I think this Mountain Jewish L1b is a Judaized native lineage in Caucasus.

Note that the Yunusbayev et al. 2011 study is not representative when it comes to the Mountain Jewish yDNA due to the low sample size (N=10). My estimate would put Hg L at 5-10% of the total Mountain Jewish population.
Its origin and introduction to the MJ community is still a mystery to me. Its carriers seem to lack the PH8 mutation that is prevalent in Pontic Greeks, which would put the point of divergence at least 7,700 ybp.

[sultan]

The Lebanese samples were subjected to control and also exclusion from studies, especially the output of the L according to the old samples and depending on the site Yfull




29444

[sultan]

Thanks, so what I understood is that L1b in Lebanon dates back to approx. 5200 BC? And it came from the Western Euphrates region in Syria? Sounds plausible and awesome. It would be interesting if there is a reason they put it on the mountain because L1b is concentrated in the Mountains. By the way how can I access the map in YFULL?

You can find this account in Twitter


ALARABI_L

[Fried]

L1b-M317 subclade prediction from Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region (Balanovsky et al.,2011) (https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/28/10/2905/973568#:~:text=Parallel%20Evolution%20of%20Genes%2 0and%20Languages%20in%20the%20Caucasus%20Region) (Nevgen.org predictor used).



ID
Population
Nevgen prediction


DAG-519
Avar
L-PH3524


DAG-474
Avar
L-PH3524


DAG-455
Avar
L-PH3524


ABH-071
Abkhazian
L-PH3524


ABH-039
Abkhazian
L-PH3524


DAG-047
Lezghin
L-SK1414


OSE-128
Ossetian-Ironian
L-SK1414


OSE-158
Ossetian-Ironian
L-SK1414

[Fried]

Proto-Colchian tribes may have been L1b, it also found at high frequencies Mingrelian and Laz people, but I'm not sure, because Caucasian cluster of L1b was younger than Proto-Colchis accordig to Rozhansky. Rozhansky calculated 2500 years TMRCA of Caucasian L1b samples. Proto-Colchis were in western Caucasus 3500 years ago. They have been Macrones, Tiberani, Tzanni etc. but don't forget that subclade also found at 20% frequencies in Moutain Jews and at 10% frequencies in Avars from Dagestan.



I don't know that. I'm not member of it's.

According to the ancient chronicles the Colchians were of Egyptian origin, and modern archeological researches (Alexander Skakov et al.,2022) in Abkhazia prove that some elements of ancient Egyptian cults were present in the Colchis kingdom. That theory of Colchian origin of Laz people is popularized by the Georgians and Pro-Georgian authors with the aim to bind the western seashores of Caucasus to the Kartvelian peoples.

Claudius Ptolemy ("The Geography"):

The Lazi occupy the maritime coast of
Colchis; the bordering region the Manrali
inhabit, and the races which are in the Ecri-
tica section.

They even say that Aeapolis (the capital of the Colchis kingdom) was Kutaisi-town which is situated far enough from the sea while the ancient geographists wrote that Aeapolis was only 17 miles from the seashore.
Claudius Ptolemy ("The Geography"), location of Aeapolis:
54164

Thus L1b-M317 can hardly be associated with the Colchian people.

[xcraft123]

I have observed a L-M317 sample in familytreedna haplogroup L project in which paternal ancestor name is Punjabi and name of the tester is Ahmed. The sample location is Lahore Punjab and kit number is N74967. Does this provide any insight on the origins of L-M317. As per 23andme L-M317 originated in northern india. Is this true? Earlier the agreement was that L-M317 is found in Pakistan only among Makranis. As per wikipedia the ethic groups which constitiute punjabi muslims are Jatts, Rajputs, Arains, Gujjars and Awans.