PDA

View Full Version : R1b-Z2109* R1b>M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2109* (CTS7822/Z2110-)



Joe B
03-05-2015, 10:21 PM
The R1b-Z2109* was recently discovered by the R1b1a2(P312- U106-) DNA Project(aka ht35 Project) team. R1b-Z2109* haplotypes are Z2103+ or Z2105+ and CTS7822/Z2110-, CTS7763-, L277.1- L584-.
Recent analysis of NGS testing shows at least three lines that are seperated by many SNPs.
One line consists of two gentlemen that are Burzyan Bashkir. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burzyansky_District
The second line is a gentlemen who is Gujarati Indian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujarati_people
The third line consists of a gentlemen with family ties to Pol'any Slovakia that shares several markers with myself with ties to Darmstadt Germany.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebi%C5%A1ov_District en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmstadt-Dieburg
That's not a lot of information for describing R1b-Z2109, no worries, all haplogroups start out that way. Presently, there is another potential R1b-Z2109 haplotype awaiting Big Y results and another testing SNP M64 to check it's viability as a marker.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8635/16539671778_d86375cfa1_o.png


YFULL
R-Z2108Z2109/CTS1843 * Z2108formed 6200 ybp, TMRCA 6200 ybp

R-Z2108*
id:NA20866GIH
id:YF02743DEU [DE-HE]

In Burzyansky district lives Bashkirs from the two different tribes: Burzyan (>80% R1b) and Kypsak (they are R1a-Z2125 and N).

Arsen
03-10-2015, 10:07 AM
Thank you, Joe B,

Most of Burzyans-Bashkirs lives in Baymaksky District and Sibay town today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baymaksky_District
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibay

For example, the Burzyan-Tungaur Canton in 1917-1922 (gray):
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B4%D0%B8%D 1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD#mediaviewer/File:%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%91%D0%B0%D 1%88%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%B2_%D1%81%D 0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%8F%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B5_1919.png

The map of Bashkirs tribes (Boryen):
http://f3.s.qip.ru/dD49ekRT.jpg

Irandek mountains and Lake Talkas (Baymaksky District):
http://images.esosedi.ru/vid_na_oz_talkas/37211582/index.html#lat=52867536&lng=58295152&z=15&mt=1&v=1

rick_r
03-11-2015, 12:54 AM
Yes, they just pushed my Big Y test AGAIN. I am beside myself. For what I paid for this test, the least they could do is knock off a few dollars. Or maybe even just scrap the test altogether and let me test a few SNP for 99 bucks.

Joe B
05-22-2015, 03:51 PM
The result is back. The Iraqi man is derived for Z2109. Any further testing suggestions?
I suppose CTS3937 would be the next step?
How about M64.1? I'd be interested in seeing if he fits in with myself and JoeB, FWIW.
There is also the Bashkir/Indian branch M4170 under Z2109 , which looks more likely with an Iraqi.Please welcome the gentleman to the R1b-Z2109 part of the haplotree. smal agrees with eastara that he may be closer to the Burzyans-Bashkirs (see Arsen's post above) or the Gujarati Indian from the KGP project. I agree with smal that it's hard to say without going to the Big Y or other NGS testing. http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/ F.Y.I. YFULL is using R-Z2108 instead of R-Z2109 for the branch.

He's not likely CTS3937+ or M64+. It's R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2109>CTS3937>M64 so if you want to stay with single SNP test bracketing CTS3937 would be next.
4617

rick_r
05-22-2015, 04:02 PM
Please welcome the gentleman to the R1b-Z2109 part of the haplotree. smal agrees with eastara that he may be closer to the Burzyans-Bashkirs (see Arsen's post above) or the Gujarati Indian from KGP project. I agree with smal that it's hard to say without going to the Big Y or other NGS testing. http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/ F.Y.I. YFULL is using R-Z2108 instead of R-Z2109 for the branch.

He's not likely CTS3937+ or M64+. It's R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2109>CTS3937>M64 so if you want to stay with single SNP test bracketing CTS3937 would be next..

That is correct, JoeB, sorry for jumping the gun. However, IF he is 64.1, could be on the right track for origin theory.

Joe B
05-22-2015, 04:22 PM
This has been a rather busy week for the R1b-Z2109 part of the haplotree.

305697 (Rose) M64 test results came back positive and moved to subgroup _b5a. R1b-Z2109/CTS1843>CTS3937>M64+. FTDNA did assign the R-M64 haplogroup label to Rose too.

As mentioned in a previous post, the Southern Iraq, Arab gentleman has Sanger sequencing tested Z2109+/CTS7822/Z2110- and has been placed in subgroup _b6. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ Z2109/CTS1843+

26483 (Campbell) Big Y results just came in. Looks like he is CTS3937+, M64- from the initial look at the FTDNA data and has been placed in subgroup _b5. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ Z2109/CTS1843+ CTS3937+.

Thank you to everybody for testing.4617

nancy
05-22-2015, 09:39 PM
So what we have right now. Ancestor for me (Hungarian Slovakian) in Iraq, cousin (Campbell) for me in the UK, descendant branches in Germany (Bork) Scotland (Robbins Rose).

*** Warning - Wild speculation ahead

This picture is very weird. Joe and I have been separated (I'm now his grandmother!) but both end up with close ties to the Scots! Remember ftdna wanted to put me in L513 which has strong Argyll roots which doesn't make any sense considering where I am now but has such stickiness!!.

And I grew up in Wainfleet (actually Morgan's Point) not too far from where Rick Robbins lives in Wellandport... which is a huge synchronicity

It seems that clan Campbell has ties to clan Drummond in Argyll which is purportedly the clan which was founded by the illegitimate Gyorgy of the Arpad dynasty in 1065 and has Stewart descendants. I know Tibor Feher was recently disappointed by some testing to link the Arpad with the Drummond. I'm going to do some more digging on this connection as I heard Arpad was R1b1b but we've changed the tree so fast that needs to be validated.

Gosh I feel like a nutter!

I just realized the Tower of Babel is in Iraq. My grandmother used to tell me (here's the nutter part) that our people (the Magyar) came from Babylon.

I myself have been surmising (aka speculating wildly) that since the R1b line was Yamanya that they would have dispersed during the great flood of the Black Sea (Pittman-Ryan theory) 7500 BC and some went south across Anatolia. It just seems so implausible that I could be directly connected to all this.....

So it appears we all need to roll up our sleeves and find more people to test so we can fill in the blanks (and be very patient) - of course we could all be disappointed and turn out to be serfs! But there is no doubt we are well travelled!

Joe B
05-23-2015, 09:55 PM
So what we have right now. Ancestor for me (Hungarian Slovakian) in Iraq, cousin (Campbell) for me in the UK, descendant branches in Germany (Bork) Scotland (Robbins Rose).

*** Warning - Wild speculation ahead

This picture is very weird. Joe and I have been separated (I'm now his grandmother!) but both end up with close ties to the Scots! Remember ftdna wanted to put me in L513 which has strong Argyll roots which doesn't make any sense considering where I am now but has such stickiness!!.

And I grew up in Wainfleet (actually Morgan's Point) not too far from where Rick Robbins lives in Wellandport... which is a huge synchronicity

It seems that clan Campbell has ties to clan Drummond in Argyll which is purportedly the clan which was founded by the illegitimate Gyorgy of the Arpad dynasty in 1065 and has Stewart descendants. I know Tibor Feher was recently disappointed by some testing to link the Arpad with the Drummond. I'm going to do some more digging on this connection as I heard Arpad was R1b1b but we've changed the tree so fast that needs to be validated.

Gosh I feel like a nutter!

I just realized the Tower of Babel is in Iraq. My grandmother used to tell me (here's the nutter part) that our people (the Magyar) came from Babylon.

I myself have been surmising (aka speculating wildly) that since the R1b line was Yamanya that they would have dispersed during the great flood of the Black Sea (Pittman-Ryan theory) 7500 BC and some went south across Anatolia. It just seems so implausible that I could be directly connected to all this.....

So it appears we all need to roll up our sleeves and find more people to test so we can fill in the blanks (and be very patient) - of course we could all be disappointed and turn out to be serfs! But there is no doubt we are well travelled!Thank you for adding some fun color to this part of the tree! There are plenty of theories and old stories out there that are being challenged by phylogeny. Some may even turn out to be true. I suspect there were plenty of serfs in our branch, some more recent that others.
Based on these most recent findings we shouldn't be bashful about asking people to test SNPs Z2109/CTS1843, CTS3937 and M64. Better yet, take the Big Y or Full Genomes next generation sequencing (NGS) test.

rick_r
05-24-2015, 03:08 AM
This has been a rather busy week for the R1b-Z2109 part of the haplotree.

305697 (Rose) M64 test results came back positive and moved to subgroup _b5a. R1b-Z2109/CTS1843>CTS3937>M64+. FTDNA did assign the R-M64 haplogroup label to Rose too.

As mentioned in a previous post, the Southern Iraq, Arab gentleman has Sanger sequencing tested Z2109+/CTS7822/Z2110- and has been placed in subgroup _b6. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ Z2109/CTS1843+

26483 (Campbell) Big Y results just came in. Looks like he is CTS3937+, M64- from the initial look at the FTDNA data and has been placed in subgroup _b5. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ Z2109/CTS1843+ CTS3937+.

Thank you to everybody for testing.4617

Hmm. How does HE get the M64? That's a little bit odd, isn't it?

rick_r
05-24-2015, 03:36 AM
So what we have right now. Ancestor for me (Hungarian Slovakian) in Iraq, cousin (Campbell) for me in the UK, descendant branches in Germany (Bork) Scotland (Robbins Rose).

*** Warning - Wild speculation ahead

This picture is very weird. Joe and I have been separated (I'm now his grandmother!) but both end up with close ties to the Scots! Remember ftdna wanted to put me in L513 which has strong Argyll roots which doesn't make any sense considering where I am now but has such stickiness!!.

And I grew up in Wainfleet (actually Morgan's Point) not too far from where Rick Robbins lives in Wellandport... which is a huge synchronicity

It seems that clan Campbell has ties to clan Drummond in Argyll which is purportedly the clan which was founded by the illegitimate Gyorgy of the Arpad dynasty in 1065 and has Stewart descendants. I know Tibor Feher was recently disappointed by some testing to link the Arpad with the Drummond. I'm going to do some more digging on this connection as I heard Arpad was R1b1b but we've changed the tree so fast that needs to be validated.

Gosh I feel like a nutter!

I just realized the Tower of Babel is in Iraq. My grandmother used to tell me (here's the nutter part) that our people (the Magyar) came from Babylon.

I myself have been surmising (aka speculating wildly) that since the R1b line was Yamanya that they would have dispersed during the great flood of the Black Sea (Pittman-Ryan theory) 7500 BC and some went south across Anatolia. It just seems so implausible that I could be directly connected to all this.....

So it appears we all need to roll up our sleeves and find more people to test so we can fill in the blanks (and be very patient) - of course we could all be disappointed and turn out to be serfs! But there is no doubt we are well travelled!

Nancy, I am not living in Wellandport, but I wish I could, at least for a vacation or two, nice area. My direct family was in the area from around 1795 till the 1880's. Others in the immediate area still are probably related to me, somehow. I have a whole passel of potential testable people, just can't see the point of testing those that are RELATED, through name and genealogy. Need to find others that are divergent to address the placement and time frame of the group. I am really happy that more are joining the group of Z2109 folks.

nancy
05-26-2015, 10:58 PM
Sorry Rick ! Mis-read your info there. It is weird tho that we are close together on the tree and families lived close together. Reason I know your name is Robbins Real Estate .... They were a big lister along the Lake Erie shore where I lived. I have had absolutely no luck finding any other Szabo's to test as I have not been able to track down any other living male descendants of my oldest ancestor other than my uncle and his kids. Is the Blatchley Robins from Pelham also connected to you and therefore assumed to be the same group? I'd love to be able to validate my tree is accurate to my most distant paper ancestor.

Here's a link to a history of the surname Robbins I ran across which of course has a German tie to the origin of the name Robert....
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Robbins

rick_r
05-28-2015, 04:30 PM
Sorry Rick ! Mis-read your info there. It is weird tho that we are close together on the tree and families lived close together. Reason I know your name is Robbins Real Estate .... They were a big lister along the Lake Erie shore where I lived. I have had absolutely no luck finding any other Szabo's to test as I have not been able to track down any other living male descendants of my oldest ancestor other than my uncle and his kids. Is the Blatchley Robins from Pelham also connected to you and therefore assumed to be the same group? I'd love to be able to validate my tree is accurate to my most distant paper ancestor.

Here's a link to a history of the surname Robbins I ran across which of course has a German tie to the origin of the name Robert....
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Robbins

Nancy, who is your Y DNA tester? Surname?

Blatchley Robins is associated SOMEHOW. Not sure yet, I have a Blatchley descendant in my Robbins group. And he matches my Y DNA perfectly,and also has tested Z2105. So, there's that association, anyway.

Joe B
06-22-2015, 08:18 PM
Most of Burzyans-Bashkirs lives in Baymaksky District and Sibay town today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baymaksky_District
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibay

For example, the Burzyan-Tungaur Canton in 1917-1922 (gray):
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B4%D0%B8%D 1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD#mediaviewer/File:%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%91%D0%B0%D 1%88%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%B2_%D1%81%D 0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%8F%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B5_1919.png

The map of Bashkirs tribes (Boryen):
http://f3.s.qip.ru/dD49ekRT.jpg

Irandek mountains and Lake Talkas (Baymaksky District):
http://images.esosedi.ru/vid_na_oz_talkas/37211582/index.html#lat=52867536&lng=58295152&z=15&mt=1&v=1
I0231, Ekaterinovka [SVP3], 2910-2875 BC
Haak ei al. 2015: PF6399+, L265+, PF6434+, L150.1+, PF6482+, M269+, L23+, CTS1078+, Z2105+, L584-

Re-assignment: (M343eq: CTS46+ M343/PF6242+ CTS3625/S4228+ Y413+) > (L754eq: CTS3794/PF6256/S4229+ L1068/PF6264/YSC223+ L754/PF6269/YSC22+ L761/PF6258/YSC266+ L774/PF6245/YSC277+ FGC41/M2190/SK2062/V1501/Z8135/Y108+) > (P297eq: FGC57/L1067/M12189/PF6424/SK2079/Z8148+ CTS3876/PF6458+ L502/PF6487+ PF6501+ PF6513+ Y416/Z8156+ FGC69/L320/PF6092/Z8143+ L464_3+) > (M269eq: PF6399/S10+ L479/PF6408+ L265/PF6431+ PF6434+ L150.1/PF6274.1/S351.1+ L749/PF6476/YSC290+ PF6482/YSC203+ L753/PF6486/YSC18+ CTS10349/FGC42/PF6492+ PF6504/S4969+ L928/PF6515+ M269/PF6517+ PF6518+ L1351/PF6528/YSC240+) > (L23eq: L23/PF6534/S141+)> (Z2103eq: CTS1078/Z2103+, M12149/Y4371/Z8128+, M12145/Y12537/Z8129+, Z2105+) > (Z2106eq: n/a) > (Z2109eq: n/a)> (KMS75eq: KMS75+ M4170-, KMS66-, KMS73-, KMS80-, KMS85-, KMS92-, KMS91-)
Z2103>L277eq and subclades: L277- 22850103- 16433964- M12164- M12171- M12147- M12162-
Z2103>L584eq and subclades: L584- FGC14606-
Z2103>Z29823eq: Z29823- Z29829- Z29835-
Z2103*-Avar private SNPs: 15080170- 17585008- 21320569- 23170480- 23381853- 28690665-
Z2106>CTS7763 and subclades: PH4902- 8025025-
Z2106*-Tabasaran private SNPs: 7243325- 8782634- 14516869- 18131766- 19032084- 21342148- 22726374- 28502101-
Z2109>Y14414eq and subclades: Y14423- 22478069- Y14514-
Z2109> SK2087eq and NA20866 private: 4726127-, 4729883-, 15066559-, 17130284-
Z2109>CTS7822 and subclades: FGC9480/Y5590-, 22461390-, 6952026-, SK2097-, 18760244-, PH510-, PH925-
L51eq: L51/M412/PF6536/S167-
P310eq: L52/PF6541- L151/PF6542- L11/PF6539/S127- P310/PF6546/S129- P311/PF6545/S128-
M478eq: M478-

I0439, Lopatino I [SVP52], 3305-2925 BC
Haak ei al. 2015: M173+, M306+, P297+, L51-

Re-assignment: (M343eq: CTS910/FGC66/PF6244+ CTS944/FGC58/PF6096+) > (L754eq: n/a) > (P297eq: P297/PF6398+ FGC57/L1067/M12189/PF6424/SK2079/Z8148+ PF6513+) > (M269eq: CTS12478/PF6529+ CTS12713/PF1331+) > (L23eq: n/a)> (Z2103eq: n/a) > (Z2106eq: n/a) > (Z2109eq: n/a)> (KMS75eq and private: 14168106(A/G)+, KMS80-, KMS92-, KMS94-)
Z2103>L277eq and subclades: Y4370- M12147-
Z2103>L584eq and subclades: L584-
Z2103>Z29823eq: n/a
Z2103*-Avar private SNPs: 17585008-
Z2106>CTS7763 and subclades: n/a
Z2106*-Tabasaran private SNPs: 14305646- 18131766-
Z2109>Y14414eq and subclades: n/a
Z2109> SK2087eq and NA20866 private: 2999695-
Z2109>CTS7822 and subclades: 22461390-
L51eq: PF6535- L51/M412/PF6536/S167-
P310eq: L151/PF6542- L11/PF6539/S127-

There are 2 BigY tested samples from Burzyan Bashkir people, FTDNA-181183 (YFull-YF03134) and FTDNA-329335. They have 45 common SNPs under Z2103>Z2106>Z2109. And they are negative for all SNPs of the CTS7822, SK2087, and Y14414 subclades under Z2109. One of these Burzyan specific SNPs, KMS75, is positive for I0231. The second marker, 14168106 (A/G), is positive in FTDNA-181183 (YFull-YF03134) and I0439. Unfortunately, FTDNA-329335 does not have “reads” in this position.This is a clip of where SNP KMS75 for I0231, Ekaterinovka [SVP3], 2910-2875 BC and shared marker 14168106 (A/G) seen in I0439, Lopatino I [SVP52], 3305-2925 BC fit in the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project Phylogenetic Tree - June 22, 2015 update (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/results). As smal has discovered for us, it's the same R1b-Z2109 line of Burzyan Bashkir people that Arson described so well. That's pretty cool. Please also note that 1KGP-NA20866 (Gujarati Indian in Houston, TX) and HGDP00214 (Pathan, Pakistan) now belong to one line, R1b-Z2109>SK2087. Thanks smal for your work and interesting results.https://farm1.staticflickr.com/512/19063733805_fc0f15c719_o.png
YFULL tree for R1b-Z2108/Z2109 should get some TMRCA refinement soon with the addition of the Kreklow data.

R-Z2106Z8131/Y12538 * Z2106 formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp

R-Z2106*
id:NA18645CHB
id:YF03137
R-Z2108Z2109/CTS1843 * Z2108 formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp
R-Z2108*
id:NA20866GIH
id:YF03134
R-Y14512Y14513 * Y14511 * Y14514... 9 SNPs formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 3500 ybp
id:YF02743DEU [DE-HE]
id:YF03317SVK [SK-TC]
id:YF03694new
R-Z2110S12460 * Z2110/CTS7822 * S17864 formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp

Joe B
07-03-2015, 03:15 AM
YFULL tree for R1b-Z2108/Z2109 should get some TMRCA refinement soon with the addition of the Kreklow data.
YFull has updated their tree to version 3.12 and included the Kreklow data. The two members of subgroup _b5. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ Z2109/CTS1843+ CTS3937+ now have a predicted TMRCA of 650 BCE with a 95% confidence interval between 1650 BCE and 100 CE.
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/ Note: YBP - Present is 1950 CE.

R-Z2108Z2109/CTS1843 * Z2108 formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp

R-Z2108*
id:NA20866GIH
id:YF03134
R-Y14512Y14513 * Y14511 * Y14514... 9 SNPs formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 3900 ybp
R-Y14512*
id:YF02743 DEU [DE-HE]
R-Y16005Y16005 * Y16158 formed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 2600 ybp
id:YF03317 SVK [SK-TC]
id:YF03694 new

rick_r
07-03-2015, 08:29 PM
YFull has updated their tree to version 3.12 and included the Kreklow data. The two members of subgroup _b5. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ Z2109/CTS1843+ CTS3937+ now have a predicted TMRCA of 650 BCE with a 95% confidence interval between 1650 BCE and 100 CE.
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/ Note: YBP - Present is 1950 CE.

R-Z2108Z2109/CTS1843 * Z2108 formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp

R-Z2108*
id:NA20866GIH
id:YF03134
R-Y14512Y14513 * Y14511 * Y14514... 9 SNPs formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 3900 ybp
R-Y14512*
id:YF02743 DEU [DE-HE]
R-Y16005Y16005 * Y16158 formed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 2600 ybp
id:YF03317 SVK [SK-TC]
id:YF03694 new

Which reminds me, Do I need to submit to YFULL so we can get that M64.1 recognized?

Joe B
07-04-2015, 05:12 AM
Which reminds me, Do I need to submit to YFULL so we can get that M64.1 recognized?

YFull may use another name for M64 or choose another SNP on the same phylogenetic level. They use Z2108 instead of Z2109 for our branch right now. With any luck ISOGG will be adding Z2106 and Z2109 to the next ISOGG R-tree (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html) update and I think YFULL will go with the ISOGG SNP choices. We"ll see.
The YFull (http://www.yfull.com/) analysis will pull out about 490 STRs from your BAM file. It also lets smal cross check his analysis with YFull's. For us mere humans, the TMRCA estimates are the most appealing and useful. I don't know how accurate the TMRCAs are right now, but the guys over at YFull seem to have a system that allows the TMRCA's to get better over time. TMRCA estimates just might be the feature that appeals to the other surnames that look like R1b-M64 from their STRs. The benefit is properly tying together the Robbins, Llewellyn, Grant and Carters families with SNPs and TMRCAs. That will be a great help to the number of potential R1b-M64s that are not too certain about their surname too.

Geni
09-02-2015, 08:18 PM
I am now BY611+, L150+, L23+, Z2105+, Z2103+, L278+, L389+, PF331+, Z2109+, M269+, M343+, P297+,,PF3252-, M73-, MC14-, M335-, Z225-, Z251-, Z253-, Z2542-, Z255-, Z2573-, Z295-, Z296-, Z301-, Z302-, Z326-, Z36-, Z367-, Z381-, Z49-, Z8-, Z8052-, Z8056-, Z9-, PF6610-, PF6714-, PF7562-, PF7589-, PF7600-, S1026-, S1051-, S11493-, S11601-, S12025-, S1567-, S16264-, S1688-, S18632-, S18827-, S7721-, SRY2627-, U152-, V88-, Y5058-, Z156-, Z16500-, Z17-, Z17300-, Z18-, Z1862-, Z195-, Z198-, Z209-, L408-, L47-, L48-, L513-, L617-, L881-, M1994-, M222-, L371-, YSC0000072-, L51-, P310-, P311-, P312-, U106-, L277-, L584-, A1773-, A2150-, A274-, A4670-, A517-, BY2823-, BY2868-, BY575-, BY653-, CTS10429-, CTS11567-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS3386-, CTS4466-, CTS4528-, CTS5330-, CTS5689-, CTS6937-, CTS7763-, DF103-, DF110-, DF17-, DF19-, DF21-, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, DF81-, DF83-, DF88-, DF95-, DF99-, F2691-, F2863-, FGC10516-, FGC11134-, FGC13620-, FGC20761-, FGC22501-, FGC396-, FGC5301-, FGC5336-, FGC5344-, FGC5345-, FGC5351-, FGC5354-, FGC5356-, FGC5367-, FGC5373-, FGC5494-, FGC5798-, L1335-, L2-, L21-, L238-
_____________________________
First page =R-Z2109 :confused:

rick_r
09-04-2015, 08:34 PM
Just was perusing the listserv of the Scottish Prisoners of War, and ran across a lively discussion that was about the recent recovery of the skeletons of prisoners that died at the battle of Dunbar. Since my ancestor allegedly was a prisoner of the battle next year at Worcester, I think that the findings of Dunbar skeletons are relevant to this subject.

My L23 z2109 YDNA do not fit in with the general Scot ancestry profile. So, I can only assume possible scenarios in which that the L23 could have arrived in Scotland, or England in general. One scenario presented itself with the info from this dig of the skeletons. 3 of the skeletons out of 23 were from what was considered Germany. From the report:


higher altitude environments within Europe (Bowen and Revenaugh 2003), such as Scandinavia,
the Baltic or the Alps. Dutchmen (a term which then included Low Germans) and High Germans
were recorded in the Scots army a few weeks after the Battle of Dunbar (Furgol
1990:316,329,342), but it is not clear if they were present at the battle itself, though some may
have been (Furgol 1990:331). The strontium isotope values for these three individuals indicate
multiple places of origin. More broadly, immigrant origins cannot be ruled out for almost any of
the individuals as these combinations of strontium and oxygen isotope ratios can be found in
many other places in Europe

So, in theory, that could be the introduction of the YDNA in the area, mercenaries of the Scottish army. Or, at a earlier instance. :P
https://www.dur.ac.uk/archaeology/research/projects/europe/pg-skeletons/acadpapers/

Geolocke
09-05-2015, 12:43 AM
Joe, just received my results for the R1b SNP pack (47778). Confirmed Z2109 (no surprise) but from the was FT-DNA has their tree structured, my terminal SNP has been shifted up from CTS7822 to Z2109. Do you think there's any chance FT-DNA will ever realign their tree to match ISOGG?

Joe B
09-05-2015, 06:18 PM
Joe, just received my results for the R1b SNP pack (47778). Confirmed Z2109 (no surprise) but from the was FT-DNA has their tree structured, my terminal SNP has been shifted up from CTS7822 to Z2109. Do you think there's any chance FT-DNA will ever realign their tree to match ISOGG?
In theory, the ISOGG tree should be the one that is behind because of the peer review process. They are adding some SNPs like Z2103, Z2106, Z2109, L277 and L584 to the FTDNA haplotree. It's just so painful to watch them try to figure it out the correct phylogenetic order. Hopefully, in the near future, communications between FTDNA and the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project administrators will improve so we can correct their haplotree to benefit their customers. Correcting phylogenetic errors like what is occurring with SNPs Z2109 and Z2110/CTS7822 would be a simple fix with proper communication.

Geolocke
09-05-2015, 08:42 PM
It's just so painful to watch them try to figure it out the correct phylogenetic order. Hopefully, in the near future, communications between FTDNA and the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project administrators will improve so we can correct their haplotree to benefit their customers. Correcting phylogenetic errors like what is occurring with SNPs Z2109 and Z2110/CTS7822 would be a simple fix with proper communication.

Thanks Joe. The confusion caused among the rank-n-file (myself included) can be upsetting. One would think that the fact that my tree shows positive results on a branch that descends from a negative result SNP would be a clue to them that something is not quite right, phylogenetically speaking. Still, I am thankful that they are offering the Backbone tests again. I will be patient and wait for them to catch up. Thanks again. -geo

Joe B
09-05-2015, 08:54 PM
Just was perusing the listserv of the Scottish Prisoners of War, and ran across a lively discussion that was about the recent recovery of the skeletons of prisoners that died at the battle of Dunbar. Since my ancestor allegedly was a prisoner of the battle next year at Worcester, I think that the findings of Dunbar skeletons are relevant to this subject.

My L23 z2109 YDNA do not fit in with the general Scot ancestry profile. So, I can only assume possible scenarios in which that the L23 could have arrived in Scotland, or England in general. One scenario presented itself with the info from this dig of the skeletons. 3 of the skeletons out of 23 were from what was considered Germany. From the report:



So, in theory, that could be the introduction of the YDNA in the area, mercenaries of the Scottish army. Or, at a earlier instance. :P
https://www.dur.ac.uk/archaeology/research/projects/europe/pg-skeletons/acadpapers/It's almost like a continuation of the 30 Years War. A large number of Scots participated in that war and may have brought some friends back for the fight with Cromwell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_and_the_Thirty_Years'_War

A_Skeptic
09-05-2015, 11:58 PM
Just was perusing the listserv of the Scottish Prisoners of War, and ran across a lively discussion that was about the recent recovery of the skeletons of prisoners that died at the battle of Dunbar. Since my ancestor allegedly was a prisoner of the battle next year at Worcester, I think that the findings of Dunbar skeletons are relevant to this subject.

My L23 z2109 YDNA do not fit in with the general Scot ancestry profile. So, I can only assume possible scenarios in which that the L23 could have arrived in Scotland, or England in general. One scenario presented itself with the info from this dig of the skeletons. 3 of the skeletons out of 23 were from what was considered Germany. From the report:



So, in theory, that could be the introduction of the YDNA in the area, mercenaries of the Scottish army. Or, at a earlier instance. :P
https://www.dur.ac.uk/archaeology/research/projects/europe/pg-skeletons/acadpapers/


I don't think these DNA tests have the ability to resolve ancestry to the degree that they can tell whether someone is from Northwest Europe as compared to Scotland.

My direct paternal ancestor was also taken prisoner at the Battle of Dunbar and sent to New England as a laborer.

The men who fought in the Battle of Dunbar were related to the nobility of lowland Scotland. The Scots did not believe in using mercenaries. It's doubtful that your ancestors are from "Germany" anytime in the last 500 years. If you're interested in the traditions of how Scotland rallied its armies, a good reference is the CD Harlaw, Scotland, 1411:

http://www.amazon.com/Harlaw-Scotland-1411-Bonnie-Rideout/dp/B005V6SZ8W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441496989&sr=8-1

You can also check to see if your last name, or a variant of it, is on the Ragman Rolls. The Battle of Dunbar was a battle fought in the lowlands, and most of its troops were drawn from lowlanders. The Ragman Rolls contains many of the common names of families from the Lowlands of Scotland.

Anyway, regarding your DNA, I suspect that it may be quite Scottish, but just rare. One of the problems with these DNA tests is that when people have a result that doesn't match their known ancestry, they're told that they must be from "somewhere else". This then means that rare genetic ancestry for a particular place (in this case Scotland) is ignored, or not recorded.

Best to you.

rick_r
09-06-2015, 11:52 PM
Mine was from the later battle the next year, not Dunbar. It was proven, not by DNA, but other methods of environment, that the skeletons were from other countries. You may want to look at the study they did on those skeletons. There is this curious account of the Battle of Worcester's German Mercenary. You may find this interesting.

http://jeromehandler.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Uchteritz-70.pdf

I, for one, am not really satisfied that the Z2109 SNP is native to Scotland.

Joe B
10-22-2016, 06:32 PM
The R1b-Z2108,Z2109 is an interesting node with four branches estimated to be around 6100 years old by YFull. (R-Z2108 Z2109/CTS1843 * Z2108 formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp formed CI 95% 6900 <-> 5200 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 6900 <-> 5200 ybp)

The R1b-KMS67 branch is of particular interest. A number of ancient samples from the Yamnaya and Poltavka cultures have been assigned to the R1b-KMS67 haplogroup. smal was kind enough to construct a R1b-KMS67 phylogenetic tree for the R1b-Basal Subclades project.

12303

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/background

Mis
10-23-2016, 10:38 AM
I'm beginning to suspect that the line R1b-GG400 is R1b- KMS-67

Joe B
10-23-2016, 07:49 PM
I'm beginning to suspect that the line R1b-GG400 is R1b- KMS-67

I have an information from one of the authors of this abstract. GG400 is an equivalent of Z2103.

GG400 precedes KMS67 and is defined as an eastern brother clade to R1b-L51.