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rms2
03-07-2015, 06:45 PM
As thrilled as I am with the results from Haak et al, they are also somewhat frustrating in that they seemed to raise more questions than provide answers. For one thing, Yamnaya was tested at the eastern end of its range, which worked out great for Silesian and Joe B and other R1b-Z2013 guys but left Yamnaya's route west into peninsular Europe untouched. After all the hoopla, we still don't have good solid answers concerning L51 and L11. Man, that is aggravating! I'm sure the R1a guys are feeling the same way.

We also got German Beaker, which is great (I'm very glad), but no Spanish or Portuguese or British or Irish Beaker. For the very many of us here with Isles ancestry, some ancient y-dna from Isles Beaker Folk would be much appreciated.

So, does anybody here know what to expect next? When are we to expect the next round of ancient y-dna results?

In a couple of years, if we're lucky?

R.Rocca
03-07-2015, 08:04 PM
I feel your pain. There are thousands of Kurgan burials in the Great Hungarian Plain, and it would be nice to know what they were or weren't (L51? Z2103? R1a? Other haplogroups?).

rms2
03-07-2015, 08:06 PM
I feel your pain. There are thousands of Kurgan burials in the Great Hungarian Plain, and it would be nice to know what they were or weren't (L51? Z2103? R1a? Other haplogroups?).

I know. I cannot help but wonder why they did not test at least a handful of those.

If funding is an issue, they should approach the genetic genealogy community. I'll bet that between all of our projects, we could drum up some cash for tests like that.

R.Rocca
03-07-2015, 08:11 PM
I know. I cannot help but wonder why they did not test at least a handful of those.

If funding is an issue, they should approach the genetic genealogy community. I'll bet that between all of our projects, we could drum up some cash for tests like that.

I'm sure it was what it always is - time and money. The $$$ part is in the thousands of dollars per sample.

R.Rocca
03-07-2015, 08:59 PM
By the way, the University of Barcelona seems to be working on "something else" ancient DNA related with the Haak group with what looks like more data from Iberia...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150304075334.htm

I don't know if they jumped the gun on anything top secret, or if it is just a general assumption based on the recent Haak paper, but they have a graphic with arrows going from Yamnaya to Corded Ware and then from Corded Ware to Bell Beaker in Iberia.

http://images.sciencedaily.com/2015/03/150304075334-large.jpg

They also mention how it is critical to know more about the SE Iberian Argar Culture, but Argar is post-Bell Beaker, so I don't know what they intend to find out.

T101
03-07-2015, 09:27 PM
As thrilled as I am with the results from Haak et al, they are also somewhat frustrating in that they seemed to raise more questions than provide answers. For one thing, Yamnaya was tested at the eastern end of its range, which worked out great for Silesian and Joe B and other R1b-Z2013 guys but left Yamnaya's route west into peninsular Europe untouched. After all the hoopla, we still don't have good solid answers concerning L51 and L11. Man, that is aggravating! I'm sure the R1a guys are feeling the same way.

We also got German Beaker, which is great (I'm very glad), but no Spanish or Portuguese or British or Irish Beaker. For the very many of us here with Isles ancestry, some ancient y-dna from Isles Beaker Folk would be much appreciated.

So, does anybody here know what to expect next? When are we to expect the next round of ancient y-dna results?

In a couple of years, if we're lucky?

As an R1a guy I could not be happier. It's been a incredible year so far: Karelia M459, Corded Ware Z282, Urnfield/ Lusatian Z280 (our first one, and in Central Germany, and a probable ginger no less!)

We had experienced such a long drought on ancient R1a y-dna results. Early on, we were spoiled rotten with Eulau (Corded Ware,) Lichtenstein Cave (Urnfield,) and all those Indo-Iranian sites out on the steppe and then nothing for years! Just nothing! So this is like Christmas all over again.

Ancient y-Dna results from Poland (Wielbark and Przeworsk - long, long overdue) is likely to be next (but I'm not holding my breath!) I'd really like Dnieper-Donets, any Slavic sites, any Roman sites, and anything in the Balkans (especially Thracians, Dacians etc,) but I don't see any promising studies coming out in the near future.

Yea so unfortunately a couple more years is probably right.

Motzart
03-07-2015, 09:53 PM
the fact that we have zero ancient y dna from the Isles is infuriating

Jean M
03-07-2015, 10:34 PM
By the way, the University of Barcelona seems to be working on "something else" ancient DNA related with the Haak group with what looks like more data from Iberia... They also mention how it is critical to know more about the SE Iberian Argar Culture, but Argar is post-Bell Beaker, so I don't know what they intend to find out.

The Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona is the one that came up with the astonishing discovery of La Bastida in south-east Iberia in a style reminiscent of the second phase of Troy and the urban world of the Levant. I'd certainly like to know where its people came from and whether they were the ancestors of the Iberes, as I suspect. In fact I'll be very happy if the team carries on going through Ancestral Journeys and finding answers to the queries I posed. Corded Ware - done! Bell Beaker - well on the way. El Argar - next on list. Yippee!

Jean M
03-07-2015, 10:38 PM
the fact that we have zero ancient y dna from the Isles is infuriating

In fact we have some. Two samples from Cambridgeshire just before the Roman period. Schiffels, S. et al. forthcoming. Insights into British and European population history from ancient DNA sequencing of Iron Age and Anglo-Saxon samples from Hinxton, England. The details have already been discussed on this forum and elsewhere. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3155-First-ancient-genomes-from-Britain-Celtic-and-Anglo-Saxon

parasar
03-07-2015, 10:50 PM
As thrilled as I am with the results from Haak et al, they are also somewhat frustrating in that they seemed to raise more questions than provide answers. For one thing, Yamnaya was tested at the eastern end of its range, which worked out great for Silesian and Joe B and other R1b-Z2013 guys but left Yamnaya's route west into peninsular Europe untouched. After all the hoopla, we still don't have good solid answers concerning L51 and L11. Man, that is aggravating! I'm sure the R1a guys are feeling the same way.

...

Are you seeing the spread of R1b-Z2013 as separate from L51? Through Anatolia and the Balkans rather than directly from the Yamna?
ht35 per Lucotte et al.
http://s002.radikal.ru/i199/1305/d4/dc09021b481c.png

parasar
03-07-2015, 10:54 PM
As an R1a guy I could not be happier. It's been a incredible year so far: Karelia M459, Corded Ware Z282, Urnfield/ Lusatian Z280 (our first one, and in Central Germany, and a probable ginger no less!)

We had experienced such a long drought on ancient R1a y-dna results. Early on, we were spoiled rotten with Eulau (Corded Ware,) Lichtenstein Cave (Urnfield,) and all those Indo-Iranian sites out on the steppe and then nothing for years! Just nothing! So this is like Christmas all over again.

Ancient y-Dna results from Poland (Wielbark and Przeworsk - long, long overdue) is likely to be next (but I'm not holding my breath!) I'd really like Dnieper-Donets, any Slavic sites, any Roman sites, and anything in the Balkans (especially Thracians, Dacians etc,) but I don't see any promising studies coming out in the near future.

Yea so unfortunately a couple more years is probably right.

Not to forget Upper Dvina and the previously reported Don sample.

alan
03-07-2015, 11:19 PM
By the way, the University of Barcelona seems to be working on "something else" ancient DNA related with the Haak group with what looks like more data from Iberia...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150304075334.htm

I don't know if they jumped the gun on anything top secret, or if it is just a general assumption based on the recent Haak paper, but they have a graphic with arrows going from Yamnaya to Corded Ware and then from Corded Ware to Bell Beaker in Iberia.

http://images.sciencedaily.com/2015/03/150304075334-large.jpg

They also mention how it is critical to know more about the SE Iberian Argar Culture, but Argar is post-Bell Beaker, so I don't know what they intend to find out.

Its easy to see why this is a temptation as no other wide go between culture between Yamnaya and western Europe is widely acknowledged . remedello 2 is an interesting but much smaller and less discussed possibility. I don't think its possible to rule either out. There does seem to be a growing trend in recent papers of Iberian beaker to see the burials as an intrusive single burial tradition, albeit inserted into old collective megaliths, with strong echos of the corded ware tradition. That would be nice and simple if true.

alan
03-07-2015, 11:27 PM
I think the best that can be said about L51 is an early lightening move of a small clan to the middle Danube makes sense in terms of the IE branching and L51 links with celts and italics. Both the suvorovo and yamnaya cultures had groups in
Hungary who could be thought of as a vanguard.

R.Rocca
03-08-2015, 01:31 AM
The Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona is the one that came up with the astonishing discovery of La Bastida in south-east Iberia in a style reminiscent of the second phase of Troy and the urban world of the Levant. I'd certainly like to know where its people came from and whether they were the ancestors of the Iberes, as I suspect. In fact I'll be very happy if the team carries on going through Ancestral Journeys and finding answers to the queries I posed. Corded Ware - done! Bell Beaker - well on the way. El Argar - next on list. Yippee!

I totally agree, but Argar's mention in an article about PIE seems a little out of place, unless of course, they are looking for a linguistic shift that would have caused the post-Bell Beaker east coast to be replaced by non-IE languages. Either way, interesting stuff.

newtoboard
03-08-2015, 01:36 AM
I totally agree, but Argar's mention in an article about PIE seems a little out of place, unless of course, they are looking for a linguistic shift that would have caused the post-Bell Beaker east coast to be replaced by non-IE languages. Either way, interesting stuff.

What do you think about their map? They show a region in between Corded Ware and Yamnaya that isn't occupied by either culture. And Yamnaya extending a bit more west than normal. Maybe it isn't meant to be taken too seriously.

newtoboard
03-08-2015, 01:38 AM
Although I did read that Corded Ware did not occupy all of the Northern regions. Apparently there has been some discussion on the R1a and N1c from the Upper Dvina region having been in area where some groups escaped corded ware-ization.

rms2
03-08-2015, 01:51 AM
Are you seeing the spread of R1b-Z2013 as separate from L51? Through Anatolia and the Balkans rather than directly from the Yamna?
ht35 per Lucotte et al.
http://s002.radikal.ru/i199/1305/d4/dc09021b481c.png

I don't know really. I thought R1b-Z2103 might have been involved in the early spread of Anatolian from the Balkans to Anatolia, but I'm not sure.

R.Rocca
03-08-2015, 01:54 AM
Its easy to see why this is a temptation as no other wide go between culture between Yamnaya and western Europe is widely acknowledged . remedello 2 is an interesting but much smaller and less discussed possibility. I don't think its possible to rule either out. There does seem to be a growing trend in recent papers of Iberian beaker to see the burials as an intrusive single burial tradition, albeit inserted into old collective megaliths, with strong echos of the corded ware tradition. That would be nice and simple if true.

The difference between the earliest radiocarbon dates in Csepel Hungary, northern Italy and Iberia are all within the same general time frame of 2900-2800 BC. When we take STR modals of almost all of L11 into account, it is easy to imagine that there must've been a very rapid movement from the Danube to the Alps and finally the Pyrenees. And of course, Anthony has the main Yamnaya migration into the Danube at 2950 BC. So, I don't know that we absolutely need go-between cultures. I guess it all depends on which steppe migration produced the movement as a case can be made for L51, Z2103 or R1a for just about any of them.

R.Rocca
03-08-2015, 01:59 AM
What do you think about their map? They show a region in between Corded Ware and Yamnaya that isn't occupied by either culture. And Yamnaya extending a bit more west than normal. Maybe it isn't meant to be taken too seriously.

I think that was the forest zone, which I guess would not have been all that valuable to pastoralists that were dependent on open land.

rms2
03-08-2015, 02:09 AM
In his discussion of Cord Ware origins, Mallory says there is no direct archaeological evidence of a connection between Corded Ware, the Pontic Caspian steppe, and Yamnaya. He then discusses the various competing ideas explaining the origin of Corded Ware (pp. 244-256 in In Search of the Indo-Europeans).

For example,



Although the Yamnaya culture may have begun earlier than Corded Ware, there is no real case for an expansion of Yamnaya invaders across the North European plain, producing the Corded Ware horizon. Intrusive steppe burials as we previously encountered in southeast Europe are generally absent from the Corded Ware region, and on what little anthropological data we possess, there is no real reason whatsoever to associate the Corded Ware populations, themselves quite heterogeneous, with the physical type which we encounter on the Pontic-Caspian steppe (p. 246).

R.Rocca
03-08-2015, 02:12 AM
I don't know really. I thought R1b-Z2103 might have been involved in the early spread of Anatolian from the Balkans to Anatolia, but I'm not sure.

I think that is the likeliest of explanations as well, with Z2103+L584+ branches going through the Caucasus and Z2103+Z2106+ branches going through the Balkans.

By the way, the ht35 map is a mish-mosh of both M269(xL23) and L23(xL51), so it is of limited value.

R.Rocca
03-08-2015, 02:22 AM
In his discussion of Cord Ware origins, Mallory says there is no direct archaeological evidence of a connection between Corded Ware, the Pontic Caspian steppe, and Yamnaya. He then discusses the various competing ideas explaining the origin of Corded Ware (pp. 244-256 in In Search of the Indo-Europeans).

For example,

From what I see, Mallory was likely wrong on this, especially with no pre-Corded Ware samples from Central Europe being R1a and then appearing with Corded Ware. And of course, Corded Ware samples were the most Yamnaya-like population autosomally.

rms2
03-08-2015, 02:26 AM
From what I see, Mallory was likely wrong on this, especially with no pre-Corded Ware samples from Central Europe being R1a and then appearing with Corded Ware. And of course, Corded Ware samples were the most Yamnaya-like population autosomally.

It's possible the dominant, R1a, IE-speaking element in Corded Ware was not directly derived from Yamnaya but from a related population to its north.

Chad Rohlfsen
03-08-2015, 02:42 AM
Yeah, I don't think corded pottery is on the steppes before Catacomb. I could be mistaken.

rms2
03-08-2015, 02:47 AM
Here I go bringing up Gimbutas again, but she has Globular Amphorae-Corded Ware as a product of her Kurgan Wave 2 (3400-3200 BC) that was dislodged by Yamnaya (Kurgan Wave 3, 3000-2800 BC) and set moving north, west, and northeast. That is also how she accounts for Vucedol-Beaker, as well.

R.Rocca
03-08-2015, 02:47 AM
It's possible the dominant, R1a, IE-speaking element in Corded Ware was not directly derived from Yamnaya but from a related population to its north.

I tend to see Anthony's migration from the steppe NW through the heart of the crumbled Cucuteni-Tripolye settlement area into SE Poland as a very good candidate for R1a in Corded Ware.

rms2
03-08-2015, 02:50 AM
I tend to see Anthony's migration from the steppe NW through the heart of the crumbled Cucuteni-Tripolye settlement area into SE Poland as a very good candidate for R1a in Corded Ware.

That's probably right.

It's too bad we did not get any ancient y-dna from any of the routes west.

Heber
03-08-2015, 07:57 AM
By the way, the University of Barcelona seems to be working on "something else" ancient DNA related with the Haak group with what looks like more data from Iberia...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150304075334.htm

I don't know if they jumped the gun on anything top secret, or if it is just a general assumption based on the recent Haak paper, but they have a graphic with arrows going from Yamnaya to Corded Ware and then from Corded Ware to Bell Beaker in Iberia.

http://images.sciencedaily.com/2015/03/150304075334-large.jpg

They also mention how it is critical to know more about the SE Iberian Argar Culture, but Argar is post-Bell Beaker, so I don't know what they intend to find out.


My wish for the next step is to clarify the position of L51, L11, P312, DF27, U152 and L21.
If I had the funding I would test in Kemi Oba, Sion, Remellion, Averyon, Heuvla and Tartessos, The Stelae People route.
We have a good view of the connection of Yamnaya to Corded War via an indirect route. I would now like to see the connection between Yamnaya and Bell Beaker. I would also like to find clarity on the R1b found in Spain.

It would be great if Reich and Haak et Al also used the People of the British Isles and Irish DNA Atlas Datasets as reference populations for comparison and the two ancient DNA samples from Hinxton. The rapid expansion of P312 in the Atlantic Zone would indicate that this is a critical phase in the migration of R1b. We are getting closer to the destination Isles populations.

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/the-stelae-people/

Jean M
03-08-2015, 12:23 PM
I totally agree, but Argar's mention in an article about PIE seems a little out of place, unless of course, they are looking for a linguistic shift that would have caused the post-Bell Beaker east coast to be replaced by non-IE languages.

That was certainly my argument in AJ.

Jean M
03-08-2015, 12:34 PM
From what I see, Mallory was likely wrong on this.

Just his usual cautious self. Corded Ware has obvious Yamnaya influences, but it is different enough to be labelled a different culture, and one which many archaeologists operating within the the CW territory were pretty possessive about, to put it mildly. They wanted it to be locally developed. They absolutely did not want any talk of immigrants. It was a case of fight that at your peril without ancient DNA.

Michał
03-08-2015, 01:59 PM
It's possible the dominant, R1a, IE-speaking element in Corded Ware was not directly derived from Yamnaya but from a related population to its north.
Absolutely agreed. Dnieper Donets III -> Early Middle Dnieper -> CWC seems to be the most plausible scenario in this case.

Importantly, when accepting the assumption that CWC is not derived from Yamna (but rather from an ancestral culture shared with Yamna), yet its so-called “Yamna component” is higher than in the case of BB, then the pre-Yamna steppe origin of R1b-L51/BB is something that becomes a natural solution.

Michał
03-08-2015, 02:03 PM
I tend to see Anthony's migration from the steppe NW through the heart of the crumbled Cucuteni-Tripolye settlement area into SE Poland as a very good candidate for R1a in Corded Ware.
The major reason why the Anthony’s view is not shared by most of the remaining experts (including Mallory, among others) is that his scenario is not consistent with archaeology. The most recent radiocarbon analyses seem to suggest that the archaeologists were absolutely right in this respect.

R.Rocca
03-08-2015, 02:28 PM
The major reason why the Anthony’s view is not shared by most of the remaining experts (including Mallory, among others) is that his scenario is not consistent with archaeology. The most recent radiocarbon analyses seem to suggest that the archaeologists were absolutely right in this respect.

I'm open to either scenario and the archeology info I've seen is summary level, but of course, I don't read Russian or Ukrainian or Polish for the more detailed stuff 😄

alan
03-08-2015, 02:38 PM
Absolutely agreed. Dnieper Donets III -> Early Middle Dnieper -> CWC seems to be the most plausible scenario in this case.

Importantly, when accepting the assumption that CWC is not derived from Yamna (but rather from an ancestral culture shared with Yamna), yet its so-called “Yamna component” is higher than in the case of BB, then the pre-Yamna steppe origin of R1b-L51/BB is something that becomes a natural solution.

Tend to agree with this although there is a lot of wriggle room in dating uncertaintly , founder effects, movements of entire clans leaving nothing at source etc. I think this kind of thing , for example a clan moving rapidly to Hungary with no trail and then Hungary being wiped clean by later movements, is actually plausible with sequences of mobile pastoralists.

T101
03-08-2015, 02:49 PM
Dnieper Donets III -> Early Middle Dnieper -> CWC seems to be the most plausible scenario in this case.

Sorry, I'm not following you on this Michal. Middle Dnieper was the eastern end of the Corded Ware Horizon. It was the springboard for Yamna migrations into Corded Ware (at least according to Gimbutas and many others,) not Dnieper-Donets.

alan
03-08-2015, 02:55 PM
From what I see, Mallory was likely wrong on this, especially with no pre-Corded Ware samples from Central Europe being R1a and then appearing with Corded Ware. And of course, Corded Ware samples were the most Yamnaya-like population autosomally.
He could still be partly right if corded ware is linked to a cousin culture of yamnaya which carried R1a. Its always been open as to whether PIE slightly pre dated yamnaya and wasn't entirely yamnaya driven. The evidence so far doesn't dismiss this possibility by any means. 4000bc given by many linguists as the oldest date is significantly pre-yamnaya. This earlier period falls into the steppe hiatus between sredny stogs zenith and yamnaya. Knowledge of the wheel may pre-date yamnaya by a couple of centuries. There is a repeated pattern in prehistory of the dominant dialect being replaced by peripheral ones when a dominant network collapses which perhaps happened between anatolian and PIE.

Generalissimo
03-08-2015, 03:07 PM
Reich said something interesting in a recent interview, basically that he thought the Indo-Europeans of Asia split from those in Europe before those Yamnaya individuals from the Samara were alive.

I'm wondering whether this wasn't just speculation but an observation based on some new aDNA results that we haven't seen yet, like from the Tarim Basin or something?

newtoboard
03-08-2015, 03:18 PM
From what I see, Mallory was likely wrong on this, especially with no pre-Corded Ware samples from Central Europe being R1a and then appearing with Corded Ware. And of course, Corded Ware samples were the most Yamnaya-like population autosomally.

Mallory is extremely cautious when talking about migrations imo. He also says there is no real evidence for any Andronovo type steppe intrusion into South Asia as very little Andronovo type artifacts have been found in South Asia but we know this happened.

newtoboard
03-08-2015, 03:24 PM
Reich said something interesting in a recent interview, basically that he thought the Indo-Europeans of Asia split from those in Europe before those Yamnaya individuals from the Samara were alive.

I'm wondering whether this wasn't just speculation but an observation based on some new aDNA results that we haven't seen yet, like from the Tarim Basin or something?

Well he can only really be talking about the Tarim Basin Tocharians or Anatolian speakers since Balkan(Armenian and Thracian) and Indo-Iranian speakers arrive in Asia quite late.

Could you link to this interview?

Generalissimo
03-08-2015, 03:26 PM
I can't find the link. It was in one of the many articles on the Haak et al. paper last week.

parasar
03-08-2015, 04:15 PM
I can't find the link. It was in one of the many articles on the Haak et al. paper last week.


Well he can only really be talking about the Tarim Basin Tocharians or Anatolian speakers since Balkan(Armenian and Thracian) and Indo-Iranian speakers arrive in Asia quite late.

Could you link to this interview?
Aryan side:
"Indo-European languages spoken in Iran and India had probably already diverged from those spoken by the Yamnaya before the nomads blazed a trail into Europe"
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31695214

rms2
03-08-2015, 04:36 PM
Absolutely agreed. Dnieper Donets III -> Early Middle Dnieper -> CWC seems to be the most plausible scenario in this case.

Importantly, when accepting the assumption that CWC is not derived from Yamna (but rather from an ancestral culture shared with Yamna), yet its so-called “Yamna component” is higher than in the case of BB, then the pre-Yamna steppe origin of R1b-L51/BB is something that becomes a natural solution.

I know Alan and Larry have mentioned this a few times already (as have I), but I think we should remember the Yamnaya results we have from Haak et al are from the eastern end of Yamnaya's range. It's likely the Yamnaya population that moved west and north up the Danube valley had a different autosomal profile, one that had been altered somewhat through centuries if not millennia of contact with the farmers of the nearby Balkans.

Differences in topography need to be recalled, too. The northern route from the steppe into the Northern European Plain (Corded Ware territory) is pretty flat and on a direct line with the East for a long way. In the south, the Carpathians form a barrier and divert traffic south into the lower Danube and thence up the valley of that river or north onto the Northern European Plain.

I'm not saying your L51 scenario is wrong; not at all. In fact, I like the way it rather neatly meshes with Gimbutas' idea of the Kurgan-derived cultures (like Vucedol-Beaker) of Wave 2 (3400-3200 BC) being dislodged and set in motion by Wave 3 (Yamnaya, 3000-2800 BC).

Jean M
03-08-2015, 05:12 PM
The major reason why the Anthony’s view is not shared by most of the remaining experts (including Mallory, among others) is that his scenario is not consistent with archaeology.

What makes you think that Mallory disagrees with Anthony? Have you spoken to him about it? What he keeps saying to me is that I should cite Anthony rather than himself, as the more recent work. People keep citing Mallory 1989 as though he has been stuck at that point for the last 26 years and this is his absolute last word in every detail on all the topics covered therein. He would be the first to tell you that things move on. New evidence arises.

Mallory 1989 was a very important book. It kept the steppe IE homeland in contention after Renfrew had attempted to blast it to smithereens in 1987. Mallory was absolutely right on the location and date of the steppe homeland. But archaeology does not stand still. It is currently in paradigm change. That is not just because of the transformation wrought by the ability to extract ancient DNA from human remains. A whole slew of scientific techniques have been added to the archaeological toolkit.


The most recent radiocarbon analyses seem to suggest that the archaeologists were absolutely right in this respect.

Not so Michał. The most recent review of radiocarbon dates for Corded Ware, checked against dendrochronological dates, make it younger than was previously thought (2750–2400 BC), while the latest review of Repin dates makes it older than was previously thought (4000-3300 BC). Repin is now acknowledged to be the first stage of Yamnaya. The mobile phase of Yamnaya starts 3300 BC, in plenty of time for it to be the parent of both Corded Ware and Bell Beaker.

As I keep saying, the detailed archaeological evidence for the Yammnaya package as ancestral to both the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker cultural packages appears in Harrison and Heyd 2007. And I really don't want to hear people pointing out yet again that they don't talk in terms of migration. Of course they don't. That is why we needed ancient DNA.


Harrison, R. and Heyd, V. 2007. The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland), Praehistorische Zeitschrift, 82 (2), 129–214.
Morgunova, N. L. and Khokhlova, O. S. 2013. Chronology and periodization of the Pit-Grave Culture in the region between the Volga and Ural Rivers based on radiocarbon dating and paleopedological research, in A. J. T. Jull and C. Hatté (eds.), Proceedings of the 21st International Radiocarbon Conference, Radiocarbon, 55 (2–3), 1286–1296.
Wlodarczak, P. 2009. Radiocarbon and dendrochronological dates of the Corded Ware culture, Radiocarbon, 51 (2), 737-749.

newtoboard
03-08-2015, 05:44 PM
Aryan side:
"Indo-European languages spoken in Iran and India had probably already diverged from those spoken by the Yamnaya before the nomads blazed a trail into Europe"
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31695214

And he is probably wrong. It doesn't fit the linguistic evidence or the archeological evidence. We already know that their reasoning for this is that Samara Yamnaya is a poor fit for the population that brought IE languages to South Asia. Just like others have been asserting the autsomal make up of the population that brought R1b-L51 and IE languages to Western Europe will differ from Samara Yamnaya, there is no reason to think that the population that brought R1a-Z93 and IE languages to Central/West/South Asia will look exactly like Samara Yamnaya. They should test some Yamnaya samples from around Saratov and Volograd before we can say that Yamnaya is a poor fit for IE languages in Iran and India.

newtoboard
03-08-2015, 05:53 PM
Yamnaya has at least six different subdivisions so there will be more than one different type of autosomal make up. We have no idea what the Z2103+ at Yamnaya ended up doing. It might have done nothing.

newtoboard
03-08-2015, 05:58 PM
For example the easternly location of it makes it unlikely it had anything to do with Greek-Armenian speakers or Anatolian speakers. And the dates of Afanasievo might make it unlikely this Z2103 ended up in the Tarim Basin or the Altai. If I had to guess this Z2103+ most likely stayed put and ended up being a component in various post Yamnaya Pontic Caspian steppe cultures post such as Catacomb, Timber Grave and the various pre-Cimmerian cultures in Ukraine.

Jean M
03-08-2015, 07:08 PM
For example the easterly location of [Z2103] makes it unlikely it had anything to do with Greek-Armenian speakers or Anatolian speakers.

People move around. They don't have to be a fixture wherever we happen to detect them at a particular point in time. I confess that I expected R1a at the east end of the steppe, but evidently things were a bit more complex than the simple model of R1a east and R1b west with a mixture in the centre, so we had better adapt ourselves.


Z2103+ most likely stayed put and ended up being a component in various post Yamnaya Pontic Caspian steppe cultures

Some Z2103 does seem to have remained and joined the Balto-Slavic group, while some is found in South Asia and in the Ossets. But that does not rule out earlier migrations.

parasar
03-08-2015, 07:16 PM
And he is probably wrong. It doesn't fit the linguistic evidence or the archeological evidence. We already know that their reasoning for this is that Samara Yamnaya is a poor fit for the population that brought IE languages to South Asia. Just like others have been asserting the autsomal make up of the population that brought R1b-L51 and IE languages to Western Europe will differ from Samara Yamnaya, there is no reason to think that the population that brought R1a-Z93 and IE languages to Central/West/South Asia will look exactly like Samara Yamnaya. They should test some Yamnaya samples from around Saratov and Volograd before we can say that Yamnaya is a poor fit for IE languages in Iran and India.

Could be. But both Reich and Patterson have seen enough data to go away from the steppe theory. That is one of the reasons I had asked Michal if in his figure the green squiggly could be archaic PIE. He said that was a possibility. Considering that as a possibility removes R1b and R1a from consideration as markers that relate to populations where archaic PIE developed. So under this scenario R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 got IE by induction and would represent a secondary expansion by IE Turanians - Shaka, Gimmiri, Sarmatae, etc.

newtoboard
03-08-2015, 07:21 PM
People move around. They don't have to be a fixture wherever we happen to detect them at a particular point in time. I confess that I expected R1a at the east end of the steppe, but evidently things were a bit more complex than the simple model of R1a east and R1b west with a mixture in the centre, so we had better adapt ourselves.



Some Z2103 does seem to have remained and joined the Balto-Slavic group, while some is found in South Asia and in the Ossets. But that does not rule out earlier migrations.

To clarify I only meant I don't think this particular group of Z2103+ men had anything to do with the migration of Anatolian/Armenian speakers. The presence in Ossetians (other West Asians especially Lezgins, Iranians) and E.Europe/South Asia was my exact reasoning. I expect some Z2103+ in the western regions of Yamnaya so i wasn't disputing the idea that Z2103+ should be associated other migrations. I think it should.

What is your new model? I think the east-west thing is pretty much dead at this point. Maybe one of these formed an outer band around the other?

R.Rocca
03-09-2015, 03:27 AM
My wish for the next step is to clarify the position of L51, L11, P312, DF27, U152 and L21.
If I had the funding I would test in Kemi Oba, Sion, Remellion, Averyon, Heuvla and Tartessos, The Stelae People route.
We have a good view of the connection of Yamnaya to Corded War via an indirect route. I would now like to see the connection between Yamnaya and Bell Beaker. I would also like to find clarity on the R1b found in Spain.

It would be great if Reich and Haak et Al also used the People of the British Isles and Irish DNA Atlas Datasets as reference populations for comparison and the two ancient DNA samples from Hinxton. The rapid expansion of P312 in the Atlantic Zone would indicate that this is a critical phase in the migration of R1b. We are getting closer to the destination Isles populations.

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/the-stelae-people/

While we are getting greedy :) ...we should also test the graves of the Single Grave Cultures of the Netherlands.

Michał
03-09-2015, 07:50 AM
@ T101 and Jean M
I am extremely busy this week, but I will try to respond in detail asap.

alan
03-09-2015, 08:27 AM
What makes you think that Mallory disagrees with Anthony? Have you spoken to him about it? What he keeps saying to me is that I should cite Anthony rather than himself, as the more recent work. People keep citing Mallory 1989 as though he has been stuck at that point for the last 26 years and this is his absolute last word in every detail on all the topics covered therein. He would be the first to tell you that things move on. New evidence arises.

Mallory 1989 was a very important book. It kept the steppe IE homeland in contention after Renfrew had attempted to blast it to smithereens in 1987. Mallory was absolutely right on the location and date of the steppe homeland. But archaeology does not stand still. It is currently in paradigm change. That is not just because of the transformation wrought by the ability to extract ancient DNA from human remains. A whole slew of scientific techniques have been added to the archaeological toolkit.



Not so Michał. The most recent review of radiocarbon dates for Corded Ware, checked against dendrochronological dates, make it younger than was previously thought (2750–2400 BC), while the latest review of Repin dates makes it older than was previously thought (4000-3300 BC). Repin is now acknowledged to be the first stage of Yamnaya. The mobile phase of Yamnaya starts 3300 BC, in plenty of time for it to be the parent of both Corded Ware and Bell Beaker.

As I keep saying, the detailed archaeological evidence for the Yammnaya package as ancestral to both the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker cultural packages appears in Harrison and Heyd 2007. And I really don't want to hear people pointing out yet again that they don't talk in terms of migration. Of course they don't. That is why we needed ancient DNA.


Harrison, R. and Heyd, V. 2007. The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland), Praehistorische Zeitschrift, 82 (2), 129–214.
Morgunova, N. L. and Khokhlova, O. S. 2013. Chronology and periodization of the Pit-Grave Culture in the region between the Volga and Ural Rivers based on radiocarbon dating and paleopedological research, in A. J. T. Jull and C. Hatté (eds.), Proceedings of the 21st International Radiocarbon Conference, Radiocarbon, 55 (2–3), 1286–1296.
Wlodarczak, P. 2009. Radiocarbon and dendrochronological dates of the Corded Ware culture, Radiocarbon, 51 (2), 737-749.


Is the Corded Ware dating the Swiss dendro evidence.

Jean M
03-09-2015, 12:14 PM
Is the Corded Ware dating the Swiss dendro evidence.

Yes. I have now realised that there is a newer paper, which came out in January, which attempts to bolster with Bayesian analysis the possessive old ideas i.e. no migration and both the TRB and CW start in Poland. The author has dates for the TRB in Poland 2000 years earlier than anyone else's! The aDNA results must have come as a shock. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ojoa.12047/pdf

R.Rocca
03-09-2015, 01:01 PM
Yes. I have now realised that there is a newer paper, which came out in January, which attempts to bolster with Bayesian analysis the possessive old ideas i.e. no migration and both the TRB and CW start in Poland. The author has dates for the TRB in Poland 2000 years earlier than anyone else's! The aDNA results must have come as a shock. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ojoa.12047/pdf

Yes, the aDNA must come as a shock to the authors of the paper, but more importantly is the dating of Corded Ware to 3500-3400 BC in Lithuania, Latvia, central and eastern Poland. These dates look contemporary with the beginnings of Yamnaya. Not having to go through Cucuteni-Tripolye territories may be the reason why R1a in the Corded Ware areas remained higher in ANE than the later Yamnaya flow that went through the Danube.

rms2
03-09-2015, 01:21 PM
Yes, the aDNA must come as a shock to the authors of the paper, but more importantly is the dating of Corded Ware to 3500-3400 BC in Lithuania, Latvia, central and eastern Poland. These dates look contemporary with the beginnings of Yamnaya. Not having to go through Cucuteni-Tripolye territories may be the reason why R1a in the Corded Ware areas remained higher in ANE than the later Yamnaya flow that went through the Danube.

Right: CW, or the people who became CW, had more contact in the north with Uralic foragers and less early contact with farmers. In the southwestern staging area for Yamnaya's trek west, there was a steppe population rubbing shoulders with farmers and WHG natives-turned-farmers for centuries if not millennia. That's another reason why I think Alan and Larry were right when they first mentioned the likelihood that the Yamnaya folks who moved west already differed autosomally from the Yamnaya we have from Haak et al, at the eastern end of its range.

Jean M
03-09-2015, 01:31 PM
Yes, the aDNA must come as a shock to the authors of the paper, but more importantly is the dating of Corded Ware to 3500-3400 BC in Lithuania, Latvia, central and eastern Poland.

I would not trust this paper on these dates or those of the TRB. There seems an extraordinary difference between the dating conclusions of its single author, Maciej Mateusz Wencel, and those of scientists who do not have any national bias on this matter. Here are the dates from Manning et al 2014* and the map of sites tested:

3989

3988

*Katie Manning, Adrian Timpson, Sue Colledge, Enrico Crema, Kevan Edinborough, Tim Kerig & Stephen Shennan, The chronology of culture: a
comparative assessment of European Neolithic dating approaches, Antiquity 88 (2014): 1065–1080

Jean M
03-09-2015, 01:44 PM
This may be part of the explanation: Łukasz Pospieszny, Freshwater reservoir effect and the radiocarbon chronology of the cemetery in Ząbie, Poland, Journal of Archaeological Science, volume 53, January 2015, Pages 264–276: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440314003823


In the 3rd millennium BC an island on the Łańskie Lake in north-eastern Poland was seasonally settled by a group of people practicing a syncretic burial ritual, exhibiting indigenous and foreign patterns. They left behind a small cemetery consisting of at least six graves. 14C dates made for samples of human bones until 2009 did not coincide with the expected age of the graves. Under a new pilot program in 2010–2013, a series of radiocarbon measurements was made for the human bones and an artefact of red deer antler, along with analyses of the stable isotopes ratios of carbon (δ13C) and nitrogen (δ15N) in the collagen. The results indicate a significant proportion of freshwater food in the diet, which caused the radiocarbon dates to be too old due to the freshwater reservoir effect (FRE). Based on the dating of the antler, unaffected by FRE, and comparative analysis, the reservoir offset for one of the graves was estimated to 740 radiocarbon years. The results, although limited by a low number of investigated humans and animals, indicate indirectly a specialization in the exploitation of local water resources. Such an economic strategy seems to be characteristic for the societies inhabiting the coasts of the Baltic Sea and littoral zones of large lakes in the Final Neolithic and at the beginning of the Early Bronze Age.

R.Rocca
03-09-2015, 01:52 PM
I would not trust this paper on these dates or those of the TRB. There seems an extraordinary difference between its dating conclusions and those of people who do not have any national bias. Here are the dates from Manning et al 2014* and the map of sites tested:

3989

3988

*Katie Manning, Adrian Timpson, Sue Colledge, Enrico Crema, Kevan Edinborough, Tim Kerig & Stephen Shennan, The chronology of culture: a
comparative assessment of European Neolithic dating approaches, Antiquity 88 (2014): 1065–1080

Even with this second paper, we are still looking at Corded Ware being between 200 (radiocarbon) to 300 (standard) years older than Bell Beaker. That is a long time for differentiation. Also, do you have the supplementary data? It would seem that their oldest radiocarbon date of 3040 BC for Bell Beaker is a hundred years older than the oldest Portuguese dates I know of, and they don't seem to have used Iberian samples outside of the Pyrenees.

lgmayka
03-09-2015, 01:54 PM
I have now realised that there is a newer paper, which came out in January, which attempts to bolster with Bayesian analysis the possessive old ideas i.e. no migration and both the TRB and CW start in Poland. The author has dates for the TRB in Poland 2000 years earlier than anyone else's! The aDNA results must have come as a shock. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ojoa.12047/pdf
The paper makes three claims that to me appear quite separable, and hence should probably be discussed individually.

1) TRB began near the south Baltic coast sometime between 6403 and 4347 B.C. That's a very large confidence interval, but nevertheless the authors are asserting that TRB appeared first in (what is now) northern Poland.

2) Corded Ware began near the south and southeast Baltic coast between 3517 and 2900 B.C. The authors are asserting that Corded Ware appeared first in (what is now) northern Poland and Lithuania.

3) "Rather than being an intrusion of people travelling from the east, the Corded Ware and associated cultures should rather be linked with the Kujavian complexes of Funnel Beakers." The authors are apparently asserting that CW was an organic development from TRB, based on (1) and (2).

I do not have the archaeological expertise to evaluate claims (1) and (2), but I do not see how (3) follows from (1) and (2).

lgmayka
03-09-2015, 02:00 PM
There seems an extraordinary difference between its dating conclusions and those of people who do not have any national bias. Here are the dates from Manning et al 2014* and the map of sites tested:
That map shows absolutely zero sites in Lithuania or northeastern Poland--precisely the region claimed by the Wencel paper to be the earliest CW--and is labeled as "north-western Europe." Perhaps it has its own national bias. :)

Jean M
03-09-2015, 02:24 PM
That map shows absolutely zero sites in Lithuania or northeastern Poland

I thought someone might mention that, so I have been searching out papers on Corded Ware in the Eastern Baltic. Here we have the Estonians:


Radiocarbon dates have placed the beginning of the Corded Ware Culture in the eastern Baltic region in the time interval 3000-2700 cal BC. New dates from Estonia confirm that the phenomenon appeared here at that time.

Lougas, Kriiska and Maldre, New dates for the Late Neolithic Corded Ware Culture burials and early husbandry in the East Baltic region, Archaeofauna 16 (2007): 21-31 : http://www.researchgate.net/publication/255716945_New_dates_for_the_Late_Neolithic_Corded_ Ware_Culture_burials_and_early_husbandry_in_the_Ea st_Baltic_region

And the Russians:


This article presents new evidence from excavations in the Moskva river valley, where Early Bronze Age sites have been found under alluvial sediments on the flood plain. The finds were identified to the Corded ware, Fatjanovo and Abashevo cultures. Radiocarbon dates and stratigraphy demonstrate that these sites developed from the middle to the end of the 3rd millennium BC.

Krenke, Erschov, Erschova and Lazukin, Corded ware, Fatjanovo and Abashevo culture sites on the flood-plain of the Moskva River, Sprawozdania Archeologiczne 65, 2013: https://www.academia.edu/7350476/Corded_ware_Fatjanovo_and_Abashevo_culture_sites_o n_the_flood-plain_of_the_Moskva_River

Jean M
03-09-2015, 02:55 PM
Piotr Wlodarczak of the Instytut Archeologii i Etnologii PAN, Kraków, Poland, did include dates from southern and central Poland in his analysis of 2009. He explains the problems of dating CW from radiocarbon dates.


The basic difficulty while attempting to date the individual phases of the CWC is connected with the limitations of the method itself, particularly with the character of the calibration curve. For the late Neolithic, the subject of this paper, there are 2 particularly important plateaus of the calibration curve, at 2880–2580 and 2470–2200 BC (Figure 2; Müller 1999a:32; Raetzel-Fabian 2000:129–33; Furholt 2003:15–8). The beginnings of the CWC settlement in most regions can be dated to the period of time marked by the first plateau. If, as in the beginning of the CWC development, a more precise date for the time brackets 2900–2750 BC is provided by some archaeological models, it does not follow directly from analyzing 14C dates. It is always a suggestion of an archaeologist, who is relying on other, additional premises.....

However, critical evaluation of the analyses of absolute chronology that are currently available leads to a variety of perspectives on the problems of chronology. The authors of particular models approach the available sources differently. For example, we can cite a series of dates for the CWC graves from the Netherlands. Depending on either the acceptance or disregard of the samples that were collected in an ambiguous context, either a very early date of the CWC beginnings or a similar date to that on the adjacent territories is suggested (Furholt 2003; Lanting and van der Plicht 1999/2000).

R.Rocca
03-09-2015, 03:14 PM
I thought someone might mention that, so I have been searching out papers on Corded Ware in the Eastern Baltic. Here we have the Estonians:
Lougas, Kriiska and Maldre, New dates for the Late Neolithic Corded Ware Culture burials and early husbandry in the East Baltic region, Archaeofauna 16 (2007): 21-31 : http://www.researchgate.net/publication/255716945_New_dates_for_the_Late_Neolithic_Corded_ Ware_Culture_burials_and_early_husbandry_in_the_Ea st_Baltic_region


It seems like their intent was to classify the Estonian Tumula burials as Corded Ware due to thier flexed positions, but ruled them out as Corded Ware because their dates are very early (3770-3650 BC and 3520-3370 BC). Given the NW Russian position of the R1a Karelia hunter-gatherer, I would think these Tumula skeleton's are at least good candidates for being R1a.

Jean M
03-09-2015, 03:42 PM
Even with this second paper, we are still looking at Corded Ware being between 200 (radiocarbon) to 300 (standard) years older than Bell Beaker.

That is just in the region that they drew dates from, where BB mainly follows CW.


It would seem that their oldest radiocarbon date of 3040 BC for Bell Beaker is a hundred years older than the oldest Portuguese dates I know of

[Correction] Yes I do have the supplement, and so do you. See Mini-Library > Archaeology > Europe. It does not give the source for the early BB date, though.

lgmayka
03-09-2015, 03:55 PM
It seems like their intent was to classify the Estonian Tumula burials as Corded Ware due to thier flexed positions, but ruled them out as Corded Ware because their dates are very early (3770-3650 BC and 3520-3370 BC).
Yes, their decision to ignore the Tamula graves is troubling, or at least not well explained. Taken literally, the logic is circular.
---
The Tamula graves, where the deceased were likewise buried in flexed position, turned out to be older and so we cannot consider them Corded Ware Culture burials.
---

Some of these dating differences seem to be due to differences in cultural attribution. Perhaps it is difficult to recognize a culture in its initial formation stage?

Jean M
03-09-2015, 03:56 PM
It seems like their intent was to classify the Estonian Tamula burials as Corded Ware due to their flexed positions, but ruled them out as Corded Ware because their dates are very early (3770-3650 BC and 3520-3370 BC). Given the NW Russian position of the R1a Karelia hunter-gatherer, I would think these Tamula skeleton's are at least good candidates for being R1a.

Excellent deduction. The flexed burial position comes first in the cultural sequence that leads ultimately to Yamnaya.


Yes, their decision to ignore the Tamula graves is troubling, or at least not well explained. Taken literally, the logic is circular.

It would be, if these graves were excluded from CW on date alone. They were not.


The Tamula graves, where the deceased were likewise buried in flexed position, turned out to be older and so we cannot consider them Corded Ware Culture burials. Neither are there any finds from these burials clearly indicating affiliation to that culture.

newtoboard
03-10-2015, 12:53 AM
I hope the researchers don't become too Yamnaya focused and we get some pre Yamnaya (Sredny Stog, Dnieper Donets, Bug Dniester, Khvalynsk, upper Volga middle neolthic, azov dnieper neolithic) and Post Yamnaya (Middle Dnieper, Fataynovo-Balanovo, Abashevo, Catacomb, Poltavka, Timber grave, and the Cimmerian cultures in Ukraine) aDNA as well.

Jean M
03-10-2015, 01:17 AM
Piotr Wlodarczak of the Instytut Archeologii i Etnologii PAN, Kraków, Poland, did include dates from southern and central Poland in his analysis of 2009. He explains the problems of dating CW from radiocarbon dates.

Looks like he is now explaining a lot more, but in French this time, in a paper from 2013: https://www.academia.edu/6611288/LES_PEUPLES_DES_KURGANS_SUR_LES_PLATEAUX_DE_LA_PET ITE_POLOGNE._REFLETS_D_UNE_COMMUNAUTE_DU_N%C3%89OL ITHIQUE_FINAL_%C3%80_TRAVERS_SES_PRATIQUES_FUN%C3% 89RAIRES

Via Google translate:
Peoples of kurgans on the plateaux of Lesser Poland. Reflections of a community through its Final Neolithic funeral practices.


The dispersion of many kurgans that are scattered in different parts of Central Europe, date to the early third millennium BC. On many of these territories, the custom of covering the individual graves of a circle-shaped plan embankment constituted a special novelty. It also represented a monumental funerary architecture and innovative, created a few centuries after the Middle Neolithic where local communities built megalithic tombs. The new rite of kurgans of the Final Neolithic communities was not limited to the construction of the mound itself; actually, this rite encompasses a system of behaviors related not only to the construction of the tomb, but the placement and orientation of the deceased and disposition of their furniture. Its new and suggestive character was originally a design on them; it suggested that large areas of Central Europe, Eastern and Northern were subjected to "Indo-Europeanization" due to the expansion of community Pontic steppes who practiced the rite of kurgans.

Today, the relationship between the kurgans and expansion of steppe communities of Eastern Europe is still only evident in the case of land in Bulgaria, Romania, northern Serbia and eastern Hungary today. On the grounds further north and west, the strength of this relationship is visibly lessened and backlash in prehistoric reconstructions. Therefore, it is necessary to pay more attention to compare this new funeral rite with indigenous traditions. Nevertheless, even in this case there are many similarities indicating that the issue of the original relationship of the new rite with the spread of the ideology of steppe communities remains current. An important influence on the studies of this relationship is exercised in the field of the analysis of the funeral rites of the late Neolithic communities in low-distant courses in the area inhabited by the steppe communities, namely the eastern part of the Central Europe ...


3999

Humanist
03-22-2015, 06:33 PM
I have referred to the upcoming results elsewhere on this forum. Here is a bit more information from a post on the Armenian DNA Project Facebook page:


This year will be groundbreaking for Armenian aDNA, as Armenian aDNA results will soon be published in Nature (along with other European bronze aged samples). It remains to be seen how it correlates with the lack of admixture results seen in the inferences from the Halenthal and Haber papers.

seferhabahir
03-22-2015, 07:00 PM
Also see the post on an upcoming paper on Aegean ancient DNA (127 Neolithic and Bronze Age skeletons):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2573-New-DNA-Papers-General-Discussion-Thread&p=75434&viewfull=1#post75434

J Man
03-23-2015, 01:21 PM
Also see the post on an upcoming paper on Aegean ancient DNA (127 Neolithic and Bronze Age skeletons):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2573-New-DNA-Papers-General-Discussion-Thread&p=75434&viewfull=1#post75434

It does only mention mtDNA though.

J Man
03-23-2015, 01:23 PM
I have referred to the upcoming results elsewhere on this forum. Here is a bit more information from a post on the Armenian DNA Project Facebook page:

I am predicting that R1b and J2a to be the main Y-DNA haologroups of these early Armenian samples.

J Man
03-23-2015, 04:57 PM
Okay I was just informed that within the "Next few months" that some ancient Armenian Y-DNA will be available in the online scientific journal Nature.

Jean M
03-23-2015, 05:38 PM
It does only mention mtDNA though.

No it doesn't.


In addition to mitochondrial DNA genomes, by applying a capture-NGS approach we collected information on functional traits of the early Aegean communities in southeastern Europe.
NGS = next generation sequencing. It means they have part of the genome.

vettor
03-23-2015, 05:43 PM
I am predicting that R1b and J2a to be the main Y-DNA haologroups of these early Armenian samples.

I will add , G , I and L

J Man
03-23-2015, 06:15 PM
No it doesn't.

NGS = next generation sequencing. It means they have part of the genome.

Alrighty then good.

Humanist
03-23-2015, 06:17 PM
Okay I was just informed that within the "Next few months" that some ancient Armenian Y-DNA will be available in the online scientific journal Nature.

Were you told anything else about the tested remains? I would be interested to know when these remains date to, and if they were associated with any cultures and/or ancient states. For instance, depending on where these remains were found, and when they are dated to, they can be associated with, to name a few groups, the Urartians, Hurrians, and Armenians. Are they all from the Bronze Age?

Augustus
03-23-2015, 06:25 PM
I am predicting that R1b and J2a to be the main Y-DNA haologroups of these early Armenian samples.

Seconded. Probably Z2103 and L23* for R1b. In addition there will probably be G.

rzblt
03-23-2015, 07:54 PM
Humanist, possibly some of the remains are from modern Armenia, here is some information: http://www.armradio.am/en/2013/11/21/findings-at-archaeological-site-in-armenia-could-shed-light-on-a-number-of-questions/

J Man
03-23-2015, 09:41 PM
Were you told anything else about the tested remains? I would be interested to know when these remains date to, and if they were associated with any cultures and/or ancient states. For instance, depending on where these remains were found, and when they are dated to, they can be associated with, to name a few groups, the Urartians, Hurrians, and Armenians. Are they all from the Bronze Age?

No that is all a fellow told me. I am not exactly sure how old the remains are. I can check back with him though and ask him. I was also informed that they are not only testing Y-DNA. They are testing whole genomes which is much better!

Humanist
03-23-2015, 10:19 PM
Seconded. Probably Z2103 and L23* for R1b.

If the remains date to the 5th century BCE, as rzblt's link appears to suggest, it would be hard to imagine Z2103 (specifically L584) not being observed in significant frequencies. The absence of Z2103, at such a relatively late date, would be quite the development, and would raise all sorts of questions regarding the origin of Z2103 in the region.

J Man
03-24-2015, 10:20 AM
Okay all he answered me. The ancient samples are from Bronze Age Armenia. 4500-3500 BPA....or 2500-1500 BCE.

Generalissimo
03-24-2015, 11:02 AM
Okay all he answered me. The ancient samples are from Bronze Age Armenia. 4500-3500 BPA....or 2500-1500 BCE.

They're from the Rise project.

Hatsarat Bronze Age ca. 2000 BCE 15 (RISE417) Marshall and Mkrtchyan 2011
Nerkin Getashen Bronze Age ca. 1200-1300 BCE 13 (RISE415) Khudaverdyan 2014; Marshall and Mkrtchyan 2011
Noraduz Bronze Age ca. 1200-1300 BCE 12 (RISE414) Marshall and Mkrtchyan 2011

Marshall, M. E. & Mkrtchyan, R. A. Armenia/Hayastan. Armenia. The Routledge Handbook of Archaeological Human Remains and Legislation: An International Guide to Laws and Practice in the Excavation and Treatment of Archaeological Human Remains (ed N Marquez-Grant & L. Fibiger) (Routledge, 2011).

Khudaverdyan, A. Trauma in human remains from Bronze Age and Iron Age archaeological sites in Armenia. Bioarchaeology of the Near East 8, 29-52 (2014).

Arbogan
03-24-2015, 11:43 AM
I think it is due that we have some aDNA samples from the middle east. There are plenty of neolithic sites in the Fertile crescent-zagros-taurus triangle(ideally dna from all three regions would be obtained, but im not sure , considering the ongoing war). Aswell any dna that could be found from local hunter gatherers. It would complete the picture for west eurasians. South asia/south central asia is also one of the regions sorely lacking aDNA and are extremely understudied, especially the latter. Anything from caucasus is welcome aswell. I think Turkey and Iran wouldn't mind genetic sequencing of ancient remains, considering their long history of archaeological co-joint projects with western teams. I just hope the people responsible for their archaelogical departments arent as crass as zawi hawas.

Generalissimo
03-24-2015, 12:06 PM
There are plenty of neolithic sites in the Fertile crescent-zagros-taurus triangle(ideally dna from all three regions would be obtained.

Things are somewhat more advanced in this area than most people realize, but who knows when the data will be published.

Arbogan
03-24-2015, 12:24 PM
Things are somewhat more advanced in this area than most people realize, but who knows when the data will be published.
Really? please elaborate.

Humanist
03-24-2015, 08:43 PM
Okay all he answered me. The ancient samples are from Bronze Age Armenia. 4500-3500 BPA....or 2500-1500 BCE.

Wow. That is incredibly good news. Thank you.

J Man
03-24-2015, 08:52 PM
Wow. That is incredibly good news. Thank you.

You are most welcome. :)

Tomasso29
03-24-2015, 09:42 PM
If the remains date to the 5th century BCE, as rzblt's link appears to suggest, it would be hard to imagine Z2103 (specifically L584) not being observed in significant frequencies. The absence of Z2103, at such a relatively late date, would be quite the development, and would raise all sorts of questions regarding the origin of Z2103 in the region.

It may raise questions but also consider that finding ancient DNA can only confirm an existence of a lineage, not rule out, because what you find is random.

nuadha
05-28-2015, 09:00 AM
The Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona is the one that came up with the astonishing discovery of La Bastida in south-east Iberia in a style reminiscent of the second phase of Troy and the urban world of the Levant. I'd certainly like to know where its people came from and whether they were the ancestors of the Iberes, as I suspect. In fact I'll be very happy if the team carries on going through Ancestral Journeys and finding answers to the queries I posed. **Corded Ware - done!** Bell Beaker - well on the way. El Argar - next on list. Yippee!

Corded Ware is not done. The Corded Ware intruders in Germany were yamnaya related, which is different than yamnaya descended. In fact, the only r1a we have found in ancient russia came from the northern forests and not the steppe. Maybe the former was a source for ANE in eastern Central Europe. We also found out that r1b appear to be the dominant haplogroup in the Samara region, which happens to be at the Northeastern extreme of the yamnaya horizon, the exact opposite to what you predicted.

There is clear evidence that the yamnaya did migrate en masse to europe, and for western europe there appears to be no second option. But as for the yamnaya themselves and their relation to corded ware, perhaps you should rethink your hypothesis in light of the new evidence.

nuadha
05-28-2015, 09:13 AM
As thrilled as I am with the results from Haak et al, they are also somewhat frustrating in that they seemed to raise more questions than provide answers. For one thing, Yamnaya was tested at the eastern end of its range, which worked out great for Silesian and Joe B and other R1b-Z2013 guys but left Yamnaya's route west into peninsular Europe untouched. After all the hoopla, we still don't have good solid answers concerning L51 and L11. Man, that is aggravating! I'm sure the R1a guys are feeling the same way.

We also got German Beaker, which is great (I'm very glad), but no Spanish or Portuguese or British or Irish Beaker. For the very many of us here with Isles ancestry, some ancient y-dna from Isles Beaker Folk would be much appreciated.

So, does anybody here know what to expect next? When are we to expect the next round of ancient y-dna results?

In a couple of years, if we're lucky?

I'm waiting for it to, but at this point, further research on western r1b is really just about filling in the holes. R1b has a long presence in the Samara region, going back to mesolithic. M269 derivatives were found in the samara region not too far removed in time from when M269 originated, so its brother clades have been in close proximity. The same culture that harbors L51's close brother also made a large genetic contribution to bell beakers and western europeans, which surely came from the western yamnaya. And thus far, M269 has been missing from all of peninsular europe during the mesolithic and neolithic. By elimination we really have no other option than the steppe and as I've already mentioned the steppe theory has a lot of direct evidence.

Coldmountains
05-28-2015, 09:30 AM
Corded Ware is not done. The Corded Ware intruders in Germany were yamnaya related, which is different than yamnaya descended. In fact, the only r1a we have found in ancient russia came from the northern forests and not the steppe. Maybe the former was a source for ANE in eastern Central Europe. We also found out that r1b appear to be the dominant haplogroup in the Samara region, which happens to be at the Northeastern extreme of the yamnaya horizon, the exact opposite to what you predicted.

There is clear evidence that the yamnaya did migrate en masse to europe, and for western europe there appears to be no second option. But as for the yamnaya themselves and their relation to corded ware, perhaps you should rethink your hypothesis in light of the new evidence.

Yamnaya is also not "done" and late Bronze Age Kazakhstan and Siberia were rich in R1a and "eastern European" mtdna but the only culture which links Corded Ware and Andronovo in some way is Yamnaya. All Indo-Europeans have an ultimate origin in the steppe so Corded Ware must orginate there also.

Coldmountains
05-28-2015, 10:00 AM
I'm waiting for it to, but at this point, further research on western r1b is really just about filling in the holes. R1b has a long presence in the Samara region, going back to mesolithic. M269 derivatives were found in the samara region not too far removed in time from when M269 originated, so its brother clades have been in close proximity. The same culture that harbors L51's close brother also made a large genetic contribution to bell beakers and western europeans, which surely came from the western yamnaya. And thus far, M269 has been missing from all of peninsular europe during the mesolithic and neolithic. By elimination we really have no other option than the steppe and as I've already mentioned the steppe theory has a lot of direct evidence.

Sounds plausible, it looks like that they left the southwestern Steppe quite early and the Hungarian plain was probably a very important place for the migration of R1b from the steppe into western Europe so sampling hungarian Kurgans of early pastoralists linked to Yamnaya would fill the holes maybe.

yxc
05-28-2015, 12:31 PM
eastern Hungarian Steppe plain was sampled >2000bc CO1 BR1 . Was no indication of any massive Intrusion of 'Steppe' dna which actually was mesolithic+pre-neolithic Pottery.

Construct WHG were not the 'pure' and they did not for 30,000y had the entire Entity of Europe for themselves

ADW_1981
05-28-2015, 01:12 PM
eastern Hungarian Steppe plain was sampled >2000bc CO1 BR1 . Was no indication of any massive Intrusion of 'Steppe' dna which actually was mesolithic+pre-neolithic Pottery.

Construct WHG were not the 'pure' and they did not for 30,000y had the entire Entity of Europe for themselves

BR1 was close to modern French autosomal DNA. Modern French autosomal is not the same as Luxembourg was in Mesolithic (Loschbour), so indeed we can say there was a Steppe "intrusion". Was it massive? It may have been, but we know the wives of the late Neolithic cultures came from all over Europe, including from LBK farmer and earlier cultures. By 2000 BC and through central Europe, the "steppe" influence was greatly reduced due to this phenomenon.

nuadha
05-28-2015, 05:55 PM
Yamnaya is also not "done" and late Bronze Age Kazakhstan and Siberia were rich in R1a and "eastern European" mtdna but the only culture which links Corded Ware and Andronovo in some way is Yamnaya. All Indo-Europeans have an ultimate origin in the steppe so Corded Ware must orginate there also.

Your last statement is understandable linguistically, not genetically. Jean has been arguing that the genetic heritage of the Corded Ware people largely derives from the steppes including the introduction of R1a to the Corded Ware region. The recent papers have NOT shown this and its wrong of her to say "done". She has already been wrong about r1b being relegated to the southwestern yamnaya (as descendants of the milk drinkers from the sea of marmara), and r1a dominating the rest of yamnaya, all of which I think has important implications. Now we will see if she was right about corded ware r1a recently coming from the steppe.

nuadha
05-28-2015, 06:09 PM
Yamnaya is also not "done" and late Bronze Age Kazakhstan and Siberia were rich in R1a and "eastern European" mtdna but the only culture which links Corded Ware and Andronovo in some way is Yamnaya. All Indo-Europeans have an ultimate origin in the steppe so Corded Ware must orginate there also.

If you buy into david anthony's IE phylogeny then you know that Iranian and Balto-Slavic have a shared heritage that post dates the "breaking off" of Italo-Celtic, which probably happened at the tale end of the yamnaya period. Therefore, Iranian and Balto-Slavic have a shared heritage that post dates the yamnaya and the yamnaya are no long a necessary element in explaining any and all shared traits between the two.

I think it is likely that Balto Slavic and iranian both share an origin in Corded Ware (or possibly CT culture) which is where they derive r1a. And as I've already argued, CW need not have received its r1a from the steppe/yamnaya.

vettor
05-28-2015, 07:03 PM
If you buy into david anthony's IE phylogeny then you know that Iranian and Balto-Slavic have a shared heritage that post dates the "breaking off" of Italo-Celtic, which probably happened at the tale end of the yamnaya period. Therefore, Iranian and Balto-Slavic have a shared heritage that post dates the yamnaya and the yamnaya are no long a necessary element in explaining any and all shared traits between the two.

I think it is likely that Balto Slavic and iranian both share an origin in Corded Ware (or possibly CT culture) which is where they derive r1a. And as I've already argued, CW need not have received its r1a from the steppe/yamnaya.

what do you mean by CT culture

this
Although the node that joins DE and CF is often referred to as
CT (in the sense that it encompasses the whole of haplogroups C to
T), and the clade that encompasses B, DE, and CF is often referred
to as BT (in the sense that it encompasses the whole of haplogroups
B to T),


from
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/258117220_Seeing_the_Wood_for_the_Trees_A_Minimal_ Reference_Phylogeny_for_the_Human_Y_Chromosome

where the Ydna tree is created and refined

Coldmountains
05-28-2015, 07:07 PM
If you buy into david anthony's IE phylogeny then you know that Iranian and Balto-Slavic have a shared heritage that post dates the "breaking off" of Italo-Celtic, which probably happened at the tale end of the yamnaya period. Therefore, Iranian and Balto-Slavic have a shared heritage that post dates the yamnaya and the yamnaya are no long a necessary element in explaining any and all shared traits between the two.

I think it is likely that Balto Slavic and iranian both share an origin in Corded Ware (or possibly CT culture) which is where they derive r1a. And as I've already argued, CW need not have received its r1a from the steppe/yamnaya.

I have to disagree here. The relationship between Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic languages is not so close like many assume because of shared R1a. Indo-Iranian languages have actually much more similarities with Greek than with Balto-Slavic languages. And Balto-Slavic languages share much more linguistic features with Germanic than with satem Indo-Iranian. The Indo-Iranian influences in Baltic and Slavic languages are rather late (earlier in Baltic than in Slavic languages). There is also hardly any direct connection between Corded Ware and Andronovo( Indo-Iranians). Such a western origin of Indo-Iranians makes not much sense for me and much points to a very (south)eastern origin of Indo-Iranians maybe already somewhere in the Asian steppe but most likely somewhere south of the Ural near the Volga river. Volga Finno-Ugrian languages are full of very old Proto-Indo-Iranian loanwords from a language ancestral to Iranian and Indo-Aryan languages. I have heard something about tocharian loanwords in eastern Finno-Ugrian languages but nothing else about any other Indo-European loanwords older than the Proto-Indo-Iranian loanwords in Finno-Ugrian languages. So in some point of history Proto-Indo-Iranians had to live next to Volga Finns. Just because we have no R1a from Yamnaya yet we can not exclude that any R1a was present there it was the same kind of logic which let me and many others believe that there was no R1b in the ancient steppe because R1b was not found in previous studies

Coldmountains
05-28-2015, 07:28 PM
Your last statement is understandable linguistically, not genetically. Jean has been arguing that the genetic heritage of the Corded Ware people largely derives from the steppes including the introduction of R1a to the Corded Ware region. The recent papers have NOT shown this and its wrong of her to say "done". She has already been wrong about r1b being relegated to the southwestern yamnaya (as descendants of the milk drinkers from the sea of marmara), and r1a dominating the rest of yamnaya, all of which I think has important implications. Now we will see if she was right about corded ware r1a recently coming from the steppe.
EHGs in eastern Europe had no "teal" component and Yamnaya, Corded Ware and Khvalynsk had it . No matter where the "teal" component originated it entered (most of Europe) via the steppe so Corded Ware had certainly "steppe" admixture no matter where R1a ultimately originated. But the close genetic similarity between Samara Yamnaya and Corded Ware in Germany is probably not a coincidence. Prior to the rise of primitive pastoralism the steppe had desert-like living conditions and human settlements were restricted to isolated river valleys so that R1a and R1b tribes could live next to each other without having much contact but the rise of patriarchy and pastoralism made them more mobile and make mixing via the maternal side common.

Agamemnon
05-28-2015, 07:43 PM
[...] Indo-Iranian languages have actually much more similarities with Greek than with Balto-Slavic languages. And Balto-Slavic languages share much more linguistic features with Germanic than with satem Indo-Iranian. [...]

Quite true.

nuadha
05-28-2015, 08:21 PM
what do you mean by CT culture

Im talking about the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture.

After that, a cluster of western European branches separated to the west, into the Danube valley on the south side of the Carpathians with the Yamnaya migration up the Danube about 3100–2800 BCE, and into southern Poland on the northern side of the Carpathians with the expansions of the Usatovo and the Tripolye C2 cultures about 3300–3000 BCE

http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-linguist-030514-124812

David argues, in his 2013 paper, that the second branch, 3b, which makes its' way to southern Poland was largely derived from Usatovo and Tripolye cultures (CT) which is not yamnaya derived. Influential migrations like 3b, which are not yamnaya derived but carry the yamnaya culture, explain why r1b dominated the samara group (eastern yamnaya) and the bell beaker group which was surely western yamnaya derived but r1b was mostly absent in Corded Ware.

To be clear I don't know exactly how r1a, corded way, and IE tie together. I think multiple scenarios are still plausible. I know that r1a is strongly tied to the later diverged IE groups such as Iranian and Balto-Slavic. R1a is not yamnaya, so its merger with IE must have taken place near the continuum of the later diverged IE groups. The cultural and demographic likely explanation involves the Corded Ware. The corded ware is in the right place at the right time, has the correct genetics so far, and the means to spread its influence across across the steppe after the demise of the yamnaya. But the picture is still complicated. Maybe both CW and CT had r1a, with one not necessarily derived from the other. Maybe CT carried IE to CW who then developed languages that eventual led to Balto slavic and iranian. Maybe CT brought some form of IE to CW, but that wasn't the IE that eventually led to Iranian or Balto-Slavic. Maybe the language that led to Iranian came from CT peoples moving directly to the steppe after the collapse of their culture (a migration suggested by mallory). Maybe CT people did acquire IE during their collapse and maybe they did partly move to CW territory but maybe CW received its IE from another source which, again, contributed little yamnaya dna to the CW peoples. It will be interesting to see how the details pan out.

nuadha
05-28-2015, 08:31 PM
I have to disagree here. The relationship between Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic languages...

Are Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic derived from an ancestor that post dates the ancestor they share with Italo-Celtic, as David assumes? If so, then Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic have a shared history that post dates the "break off" of Italo-Celtic. The "break off" of Italo-Celtic likely happened near the end of the yamnaya period. If all these are true, then we can conclude that Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic have a shared history that post dates the yamnaya. Therefore, we have room for non yamnaya people to explain certain connections between Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic. Its really just logic I'm using here, so tell me where you disagree.

I don't care about any satem label or how closely Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic are related. I only care who their last common ancestry was and whether or not that was the yamnaya. If it was not the yamnaya, then MAYBE their shared r1a haplogroups did not come from yamnaya as i argue.

nuadha
05-28-2015, 08:40 PM
EHGs in eastern Europe had no "teal" component and Yamnaya, Corded Ware and Khvalynsk had it . No matter where the "teal" component originated it entered (most of Europe) via the steppe so Corded Ware had certainly "steppe" admixture no matter where R1a ultimately originated. But the close genetic similarity between Samara Yamnaya and Corded Ware in Germany is probably not a coincidence. Prior to the rise of primitive pastoralism the steppe had desert-like living conditions and human settlements were restricted to isolated river valleys so that R1a and R1b tribes could live next to each other without having much contact but the rise of patriarchy and pastoralism made them more mobile and make mixing via the maternal side common.

Interesting take, but i don't consider the teal component in europe as necessarily a steppe marker and certainly not necessarily a yamnaya marker. We don't know enough about the teal component to say much. We still don't know how that teal component came to be in the yamnaya, whether that be from the CT people, from people of the Caucasus, or from middle east related central asians.

Generalissimo
05-28-2015, 09:34 PM
In fact, the only r1a we have found in ancient russia came from the northern forests and not the steppe. Maybe the former was a source for ANE in eastern Central Europe.

You actually sound crazy when you say things like this, because it's impossible.

nuadha
05-28-2015, 09:45 PM
You actually sound crazy when you say things like this, because it's impossible.

yes, impossible. Its not as if we have already found ANE in mesollithic scandinavians at a 1/5 ratio or that greater levels of ANE could be expected between scandinavia and the urals along the forest zone.

Coldmountains
05-28-2015, 09:49 PM
Are Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic derived from an ancestor that post dates the ancestor they share with Italo-Celtic, as David assumes? If so, then Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic have a shared history that post dates the "break off" of Italo-Celtic. The "break off" of Italo-Celtic likely happened near the end of the yamnaya period. If all these are true, then we can conclude that Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic have a shared history that post dates the yamnaya. Therefore, we have room for non yamnaya people to explain certain connections between Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic. Its really just logic I'm using here, so tell me where you disagree.

I don't care about any satem label or how closely Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic are related. I only care who their last common ancestry was and whether or not that was the yamnaya. If it was not the yamnaya, then MAYBE their shared r1a haplogroups did not come from yamnaya as i argue.

I think we should not overrate the current r1a vs.r1b divide among most modern Indo-Europeans even when it already existed among Bell Beakers, Andronovans and Corded Ware. Just because most Balto-Slavs and Indo-Iranians share a "recent" ancestor they don't have to originate from the same post-PIE culture and their languages don't have to be closely related. Neither they have to be genetically identical because of their shared R1a and i would not be surprised if Proto-Indo-Iranians were genetically closer to some ancient R1b dominated tribes (Samara Yamnaya,..) than to Corded Ware. There are shared features and remarkable similarities but they tend to be exaggerated by many and Balto-Slavic languages are rather linked to Germanic languages and share with them much more. The post-PIE influences of Indo-Iranian languages are rather limited and even the number of true Scythian/Iranian loanwords is much smaller than expected. There are much more Post-PIE Indo-Iranian influences/loanwords in Finno-Ugrian languages than in Balto-Slavic languages. I think that Balto-Slavs originated in the Middle Dnjepr culture and that at best eastern Proto-Balts lived near Proto-Indo-Iranians. Later when Scythians dominated the Pontic-Caspian steppe and occasionally settled in the forest-steppe regions of Ukraine they had contact with Proto-Slavs.

ADW_1981
05-29-2015, 12:54 AM
Interesting take, but i don't consider the teal component in europe as necessarily a steppe marker and certainly not necessarily a yamnaya marker. We don't know enough about the teal component to say much. We still don't know how that teal component came to be in the yamnaya, whether that be from the CT people, from people of the Caucasus, or from middle east related central asians.

I'm not sure how you can say that when 'Teal' was absent in the Early European Farmers, who are supported as coming from the Balkans and the Mediterranean coasts. These folks would have arrived from the western Middle East, and around 5000 BC they lacked this type of ancestry. Fast forward to today and Teal is rather ubiquitous in the Middle East. Of course, the rational and most likely scenario is migrations and upheavals in the Middle East during the Bronze Age, from people in the east.

rms2
05-30-2015, 12:43 PM
As thrilled as I am with the results from Haak et al, they are also somewhat frustrating in that they seemed to raise more questions than provide answers. For one thing, Yamnaya was tested at the eastern end of its range, which worked out great for Silesian and Joe B and other R1b-Z2013 guys but left Yamnaya's route west into peninsular Europe untouched. After all the hoopla, we still don't have good solid answers concerning L51 and L11. Man, that is aggravating! I'm sure the R1a guys are feeling the same way.

We also got German Beaker, which is great (I'm very glad), but no Spanish or Portuguese or British or Irish Beaker. For the very many of us here with Isles ancestry, some ancient y-dna from Isles Beaker Folk would be much appreciated.

So, does anybody here know what to expect next? When are we to expect the next round of ancient y-dna results?

In a couple of years, if we're lucky?

That was the post with which I began this thread, and I am still wondering.

And things have gotten awfully dull around here since the ancient dust from Haak et al settled.

R.Rocca
05-30-2015, 02:04 PM
That was the post with which I began this thread, and I am still wondering.

And things have gotten awfully dull around here since the ancient dust from Haak et al settled.

Yes, somewhat dull and hopefully this does not become the "new normal".

From what someone posted on this site a couple of weeks ago, it looks like a study on Armenian ancient DNA is imminent. I'm sure it will provide some good value, but from what I think I remember, the oldest material is from 2500 BC or thereabout (someone correct me if I'm wrong). That date is likely 1500-1000 years too young to give us a good before-and-after picture of the impact of Maykop and Yamnaya. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Jean M
06-03-2015, 10:48 PM
Alan Morris tells us what is upcoming in aDNA from southern Africa:


To my knowledge, there are now several projects in preparation, nearing completion, or already done. The analysis of specimens from the Later Stone Age and the Early Iron Age have produced some results for which there should be publications in the near future. Earlier specimens from the dawn of modern humanity 100 000 years ago or more have also been sampled, but we shall have to wait to see if enough DNA can be extracted for analysis. Laboratories in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Australia and the USA have been involved. This is truly a rush for knowledge in a new field.

http://sajs.co.za/sites/default/files/publications/pdf/SAJS%20111_5-6_Morris_Commentary.pdf

angscoire
06-07-2015, 11:33 AM
Presentations over the genetic summer conference season ; Kumtepe Anatolian Farmer , six Czech STK farmers, eight Spanish LN/EBA individuals from El Portalon , seven from Roman era York , ten from Iron Age and Anglo Saxon Cambridgeshire , eighty from EBA Bavaria (mtDNA only ?). Not sure when any of these will be published . The 'Big Two' projects on the horizon remain The Rise and Pinhasi , IMO. It was predicted the Rise would be ready by 2014 or 2015 ... still waiting.

Generalissimo
06-07-2015, 11:39 AM
The 'Big Two' projects on the horizon remain The Rise and Pinhasi , IMO. It was predicted the Rise would be ready by 2014 or 2015 ... still waiting.

I'm pretty sure the main Rise paper will be published tonight at Nature, and if not, then within a few days.

As far as I know, it includes 101 ancient genomes from Bronze/Iron Age Europe, Caucasus, Armenia and Kazakhstan.

Heber
06-07-2015, 01:53 PM
The Rise

Travels, transmissions and transformations in temperate northern Europe during the 3rd and 2nd millennium BC: the rise of Bronze Age societies.

The rise of Bronze Age society: new results from science and archaeology

Friday 14th June

New aDNA results given by Morten Allentoft in the paper Initial results from ancient DNA
analysis of Bronze Age human remains

http://the-rise.se/

Jean M
06-07-2015, 02:09 PM
Friday 14th June. New aDNA results given by Morten Allentoft in the paper Initial results from ancient DNA analysis of Bronze Age human remains

That was the Prehistoric Society 2013 EUROPA Conference.

Jean M
07-16-2015, 08:01 PM
The Hinxton results will be on http://biorxiv.org/ sometime in the next few days.

parastais
07-16-2015, 09:26 PM
The Hinxton results will be on http://biorxiv.org/ sometime in the next few days.
What is Hinxton about?

Jean M
07-16-2015, 09:38 PM
What is Hinxton about?

Sorry. There has been so much discussion on the forum about this study, I failed to repeat the details.

S. Schiffels et al., Insights into British and European population history from ancient DNA sequencing of Iron Age and Anglo-Saxon samples from Hinxton, England was a paper read at the ASHG conference in October last year. http://www.ashg.org/2014meeting/abstracts/fulltext/f140122098.htm

At that point they had DNA from five individuals that were found in archaeological excavations at the Wellcome Trust Genome Campus near Cambridge (UK), two of which are dated to around 2,000 years before present (Iron Age), and three to around 1,300 years before present (Anglo-Saxon period). Since the genomes themselves were made available online, several amateurs were able to analyse them, for example: http://www.y-str.org/2014/10/hinxton-dna.html

The study subsequently expanded to include addition samples from other sites, as reported in a paper read at the SMBE conference 12-16th 2015:

Schiffels et al., Insights into British and European population history from ancient DNA sequencing of Iron Age and Anglo-Saxon samples from East England


British population history is shaped by a series of immigration periods and associated changes in population structure. It is an open question to what extent these changes affect the genetic composition of the current British population. Here we present whole genome sequences generated from 10 individuals, found in archaeological excavations in Hinxton, Oakington and Linton, close to Cambridge, and ranging from 2,300 years before present (Iron Age) until 1,200 years before present (Anglo-Saxon period). We use modern genetic samples from the 1000 Genomes Project and additional external data from Britain, the Netherlands and Denmark to characterize the relationship of these ancient samples with contemporary British and other European populations. By analyzing the distribution of shared rare variants across ancient and modern individuals, we find that samples from the Anglo-Saxon period are relatively more closely related to central northern Europe, while earlier samples and contemporary British samples are relatively more closely related to Southern European populations. To quantify this series of relationships further, we developed a new method, rarecoal, that fits a demographic model parameterized by split times, population sizes and migration rates to the distribution of shared rare variants across a large number of modern and ancient individuals. We use rarecoal to estimate the history of European population structure within the last 10,000 years and to map our ancient samples onto the European population tree. Our approach provides a unique picture of population history in Europe, and in particular helps characterizing the complex genetic impact of Anglo-Saxon immigrations into Britain.

Generalissimo
07-17-2015, 01:30 AM
It'll be interesting to see how this new rarecoal program performs and what they actually mean by "earlier samples and contemporary British samples are relatively more closely related to Southern European populations".

If those Celts end up clustering much closer to Iberia than expected, all hell will break loose online, even though the analysis is limited to rare alleles.

razyn
07-17-2015, 12:10 PM
The study subsequently expanded to include addition samples from other sites, as reported in a paper read at the SMBE conference 12-16th 2015:

Schiffels et al., Insights into British and European population history from ancient DNA sequencing of Iron Age and Anglo-Saxon samples from East England

I had to Google it to find out, but that molecular biology conference was July 12-16th, 2015. Like, yesterday.

Jean M
07-17-2015, 03:27 PM
I had to Google it to find out, but that molecular biology conference was July 12-16th, 2015. Like, yesterday.

Sorry. Managed to miss out the July. Yes the lead author is just back from it. I presume that the paper was posted on http://biorxiv.org shortly after it was read. He told me yesterday that it was posted up there, but it takes some time to appear online.

Jean M
07-18-2015, 12:40 PM
Sorry. Managed to miss out the July. Yes the lead author is just back from it. I presume that the paper was posted on http://biorxiv.org shortly after it was read. He told me yesterday that it was posted up there, but it takes some time to appear online.

And here it is. See thread http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4943-Iron-Age-and-Anglo-Saxon-genomes-from-East-England-reveal-British-migration-history

Jean M
08-18-2015, 08:15 AM
This paper will be read at the ASHG conference in Baltimore October 6-10 2015:

I. Lazaridis, D. Fernandes, N. Rohland, S. Mallick, K. Stewardson, S. Alpaslan, N. Patterson, R. Pinhasi, D. Reich, Genome-wide data on 34 ancient Anatolians identifies the founding population of the European Neolithic. http://www.ashg.org/2015meeting/pages/sessionlisting.shtml

Abstracts of ASHG 2015 papers will be available on the 2015 meeting website in early September and will be published online.

Jean M
08-31-2015, 12:02 PM
David W. noticed this one: Vai et al., Genetic variability in a late Neolithic Megalithic Burial from Poland: The Globular Amphora Culture and the Indo-European debate, presentation abstract, 21° CONGRESSO dell’Associazione Antropologica Italiana, Bologna/Ravenna September 3-5, 2015. http://www.bioanthropologybologna.eu/abstract-book-programme/sa999a4d0


Archaeological evidence shows a marked discontinuity in Late Neolithic farming societies in Europe: large settlements were abandoned, anthropomorphic figurines and painted pottery disappeared. Some scholars, as Gimbutas, interpreted these changes hypothesizing a migration of pastoral groups from the steppes of southern Ukraine, also associated with the spread of proto-Indo-European languages (Kurgan hypothesis). The Globular Amphora culture assumes a crucial role in this theory. It was distributed across central and eastern Europe, from the Elbe to the middle Dnieper, around 3400-2800 BC and was characterized by an apparently mobile economy, presence of domestic horse, distinctive pottery and burial rituals. Furthermore, the physical type of the Globular Amphora population was regarded as similar to those of the steppe region. Alternative explanations have been put forward for the spread of Indo-European languages, including Renfrew’s theory based on the Neolithic demic diffusion, and the Armenian hypothesis by Gamkrelidze and Ivanov. We selected 17 individuals from the Megalithic barrow of Kierzkowo (Poland, Kujawy-Pomorze), an excellent example of rituals of the Globular Amphora culture. We are applying advanced molecular procedures based on Next Generation Sequencing and target enrichment in order to analyze genetic variation in this community. Our aim is to contribute to the Indo-European debate, by comparing our data with the available genetic data about ancient and modern Europeans, quantifying population relationships, and testing for the possible demographic implications of the Kurgan hypothesis upon the Globular Amphora culture.

Jean M
08-31-2015, 12:16 PM
Also from the 21° CONGRESSO dell’Associazione Antropologica Italiana, Bologna/Ravenna September 3-5, 2015.

Gigli et al., From Upper Paleolithic to Eneolithic: Mitochondrial genome analysis of ancient human samples from Central-Southern Italy


The genetic background of the Italian Paleolithic and the extent of population replacement during the Neolithic is a crucial issue in the human populations of our peninsula evolutionary history. Genetic analysis of ancient DNA can reveal past events that are difficult to discern through study only present-day individuals. Taking advantage of Next Generation Sequencing (NGS) technologies and ad hoc bioinformatics pipelines, genomic data as well as supporting evidence for data authenticity can now be obtained from ancient human samples. In the framework of a wider project (PRIN 2010-2011 Biological and cultural heritage of the central-southern Italian population trough 30 thousand years.) we attempted to analyzed the complete mitochondrial DNA of a set of ancient human individuals retrieved from seven archaeological sites located in Central-Southern Italy from Upper Paleolithic to Eneolithic. We found that endogenous DNA can be recovered from the samples. Besides that, our preliminary results show that modern human contamination represents the most difficult issue to overcome when dealing with previously handled museum specimens.

Jean M
08-31-2015, 12:27 PM
Also from the 21° CONGRESSO dell’Associazione Antropologica Italiana, Bologna/Ravenna September 3-5, 2015.

Catalano et al., Paleogenetics of St2. The first adna analysis of Upper Palaeolithic hunter-gatherer from Sicily


The Upper Palaeolithic remains from Grotta di San Teodoro represent the oldest and largest human skeletal sample yet found in Sicily. Inside the cave, during different and not continuous field excavations carried out in the 1937-1947 decade, seven human adults have been discovered. They were mostly attributed to the earliest Epigravettian explorers that arrived in Sicily crossing the Messinian strait. Morphometric analysis demonstrated their relationship with continental modern humans, in particular with humans bearing Magdalenian culture. Furthermore, morphological analyses suggest certain continuity in cranial morphology during the Palaeolithic-Mesolithic period in Sicily. In order to better understand the earliest peopling of Sicily and their relationship with subsequent Mesolithic hunther-gatherers, we sampled the ST2 cranium for ancient DNA analysis and compared the extracted DNA with DNA data recently obtained for the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from Favignana*. ST2, discovered by Bonafede during the first field campaign (1937) and unearthed by Graziosi and Maviglia in 1946, is a complete cranial sample attributed to a male, housed at the Gemmellaro Geological Museum of the University of Palermo. As the other specimens, the ST2 skeleton was intentionally buried near the ST1 skeleton, which was recently dated by AMS 14C 15232-14126 cal. BP. Paleogenetic analyses on ST2 were conducted in a exclusively dedicated laboratory for ancient DNA work. Following the most stringent current protocols for validation of ancient DNA, we obtained endogenous sequences of mitochondrial DNA. In the light of these preliminary results we consider ST2 a good candidate for more innovative genomic analyses, like capture approaches.

*The only aDNA from Favignana that I know of is from Mannino 2012 and not very informative, so I hope this means that we have better results coming.

George
08-31-2015, 12:33 PM
David W. noticed this one: Vai et al., Genetic variability in a late Neolithic Megalithic Burial from Poland: The Globular Amphora Culture and the Indo-European debate, presentation abstract, 21° CONGRESSO dell’Associazione Antropologica Italiana, Bologna/Ravenna September 3-5, 2015. http://www.bioanthropologybologna.eu/abstract-book-programme/sa999a4d0

Very good news indeed. Can't wait for the results! Here's some more meager previews of GAC generally (from Ukraine, Belarus, and Poland): http://www.academia.edu/Documents/in/Globular_Amphora_Culture

The Polish paper has not been uploaded though there is a short English summary, which indicates a resemblance of the studied GAC individual to "Fertile Crescent" DNA (possibly implying EEF?). The Belarusian paper I have very quickly perused. It contends that the Belarus GAC basically migrated there from the Lublin GAC area. The 2013 Rudych Ukrainian paper I have read fully. Extensive "craniological" analyses. Her conclusions: the Ukrainian GAC is very close ("maximally") to the German and Polish GAC, particularly the males, and quite different (also "maximally") from the Corded Ware skeletal reliquiae. She also notes the great closeness between TRB and GAC (though there are slight regional variations).The Ukrainian GAC females however show greater affinities to cultures such as Late Trypilia, Lengyel, Gumelnitsa, and Boyan. There is also a very slight difference between German and Polish/Ukrainian males due perhaps to some input from the Comb ware c. area. It would thus seem that by and large the GAC Y-DNA would be fairly close to that of the TRB's. We'll see.

Jean M
08-31-2015, 12:36 PM
Also from the 21° CONGRESSO dell’Associazione Antropologica Italiana, Bologna/Ravenna September 3-5, 2015.

Graffi et al., First genetic study of Villanovians: preliminary outcomes from the skeletal remains of Trilogia Navile Necropolis (BO), VII C. B.C.


This work represents the first attempt to study genetically Villanovians, a population lived in Italy during Iron Age (IX-VII c. B.C.). Usual of this culture was incineration, but the exceptional retrieval of inhumations from the archaeological excavation of Trilogia Navile (BO), allowed to carry out the analysis of DNA from seven skeletal samples. Villanovians origin and ethnicity are debated since the past century and remains unclear whether they are an indigenous Italian group or migrants from abroad. For this reason, we started to study them from a genetic point of view trying to discover the deep meaning of their “culture”, to enlighten the possible genetic connections they had with Etruscans, and to look for information about their origin. The second aim of the research exploited genetics to check kinship in two individuals that presented an epigenetic feature, hyperdonthia. The genetic study was preceded by Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy (FTIR) pre-extraction analysis in order to investigate the mineralogical conservation of bones and to choose the best samples. The analysis of DNA followed the most recent literature concerning sampling, indeed, we selected samples from the hardest region of the human body, the petrous portion of temporal bone. The population genetics study focused on the HVRI of mitochondrial DNA on a subset of samples from Trilogia Navile. The outcomes presented are very interesting and have to be considered as pilot starting point of a wider analysis that will involve all the skeletal material available from the necropolis and the sequencing with NGS technologies.

Disappointing that they have such limited aDNA at present, but I'm happy to see that sequencing with NGS technologies is planned.

Jean M
08-31-2015, 12:43 PM
Also from the 21° CONGRESSO dell’Associazione Antropologica Italiana, Bologna/Ravenna September 3-5, 2015.

Modi et al., Genetic analyses of the first inhabitant of Sardinia


The process of neolithisation in Sardinia is difficult to explain due to the scarce and uncertain evidences available for the Mesolithic period. In addition, a gap in the absolute chronology of the two periods indicates discontinuity between Mesolithic and Early Neolithic groups with regard to the different stages of colonization of the island and to the settlement strategies.

Within the Early Neolithic, Su Carroppu rock shelter plays a relevant role in Sardinia. The archaeological excavations, started in 2009 on the lowermost layer (level-4), yielded large quantities of remains, including fragments of human bones intermingled with bones of Prolagus sardus. Three direct radiocarbon dates of the human bones placed the remains in the mid-9th millennium cal. BC thus predating Early Neolithic. Consequently, we deal here with the earliest direct evidence of human presence in Sardinia.

With the purpose of better defining the colonization process of the island, we are currently performing depth molecular analyses on the human bones unearthed at the Su Carroppu. In order to evaluate the molecular preservation of the bones, DNA was extracted from nine samples and analyzed through amplification and sequencing of the mitochondrial HVS-I region. Target Enrichment and NGS will be then performed on the most promising sample in order to obtain the entire mitogenome as well as supporting evidence for data authenticity.

Jean M
08-31-2015, 12:46 PM
Also from the 21° CONGRESSO dell’Associazione Antropologica Italiana, Bologna/Ravenna September 3-5, 2015.

Panicucci et al., Identifying the genetic legacy of Piceni: A preliminary survey from Novilara Necropolis (PU), VIII-VII C. B.C.


The “Piceni” were an Italic civilization that lived, during the Iron Age, in the northern Adriatic coastal plain of Italy today corresponding to the regionof Marche. The term “Picenum Culture” generally refers not so much to a homogeneous but rather to a heterogeneous cultural structure, characterized by local differences (especially between the North and the South of the region) that have been only scarcely interpreted.

The aim of this research is the genetic analysis of the skeletal remains from the necropolis of Novilara (PU), dating at VIII-VII c.B.C. This archaeological site represents an exceptional evidence due to the presence of more than 300 graves discovered until nowadays, with grave goods and osteological material in a good state of preservation.

In this study we have selected teeth and petrous bones as the samples of choice for the aDNA analysis. DNA was extracted from a first set of samples and sequenced for the first hypervariable region (HVR1) of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), by using the state-of-the-art method. Preliminary results highlight matrilinear relationships among multiple inhumations of this necropolis, moreover suggesting genetic links between Piceni from Novilara and Villanovians from Bologna (VII c. B.C.). Ancient mtDNA data are also compared and contextualized within the genetic variability of present-day inhabitants of the same territories.

By providing the first genetic study about Piceni, we want to contribute at expanding the knowledge about the origins of ancient Italic civilizations and of their relationships with other coeval and modern populations.

Jean M
08-31-2015, 12:50 PM
Also from the 21° CONGRESSO dell’Associazione Antropologica Italiana, Bologna/Ravenna September 3-5, 2015.

Serventi et al., Deciphering the identity and settlement of “Phoenician-Punic” Civilization: A comprehensive genetic study on the Tharros Southern Necropolis (OR)



The timing and modalities concerning the identity and expansion of the “Phoenician” civilization and the formation and diffusion of the “Punic” culture - linked to the Carthage cultural and territorial expansion - represent in the phoenician-punics studies a vexed question.

In order to contribute to the reconstruction of the “phoenician-punic” settlement in the central-western Mediterranean area, a research project has been started in the Tharros southern necropolis (OR) based on a multidisciplinary approach that combines the contributions of archaeological, anthropological and genetic investigations in primis.

Furthermore an innovative protocol has been developed, in respect with the ultimate procedures set up in these field studies. In all phases of research, from the in situ sampling to the laboratory analyses, skilled archaeobiologists were present. Contamination is utmost concern when working with ancient DNA, so an important starting point in this study was precisely to have initiated precautionary measures from the sample collection on the field.

In the present study, conducted on a first selection of bone samples, classical methods of mitochondrial DNA analysis (HVRI) have been combined with new generation techniques (NGS). Also every member of ours working team have been genotyped to exclude contaminations.

This research therefore provides a pioneer survey in the phoenician-punic context, to define the target population and expand the knowledge on migration flows and the relationship between ancient and modern populations. It enables to trace the ethnic origin and understand whether will be maintained a genetic continuity with those who nowadays still live in the same territories.

R.Rocca
08-31-2015, 02:21 PM
Also this one, which in the long term, may prove to be the most important...

Martínez-Labarga et al ANCIENT BIOMOLECULES: A NEW APPROACH TO STUDY BIOLOGICAL AND CULTURAL HERITAGE OF THE CENTRAL-SOUTHERN ITALIAN POPULATIONS THROUGH 30K YEARS

The research project goals to point out, through a multidisciplinary approach, genetic, nutritional and mobility patterns of the inhabitants of the central-southern Italy, connected to changes in life styles and economic systems, using the new inference power of biomolecular analyses connected with bioarchaeological records. The aim was reached through a large collection of specimens ranging from the Upper Palaeolithic to the present, with an emphasis on the Copper Age, a period in which socio-economic and cultural changes in subsistence strategies occurred with a differentiation and improving of food productivity. As a first task, we report the stable isotope palaeodietary study from several central and southern Italian areas. Stable isotope analyses of carbon and nitrogen were carried out on collagen extracted from almost 400 human bone remains as well as a range of fauna to reconstruct the environmental conditions and individual dietary histories. Moreover, the collagen yields were also used as a prognostic indicator of bone preservation for the selection of samples to be analysed for ancient DNA through standard ancient mitochondrial DNA (amtDNA) sequencing and Next Generation Sequencing (NGS) of nuclear (both autosomal and Y-chromosome) DNA of a sub-set of the human remains collected from the archaeological sites.

Heber
08-31-2015, 03:35 PM
Here is the funding application for BEAN Bridging the European and Anatolian Neolithic.

"One of the most interesting questions in prehistory is that of the origins of European peoples following the introduction
of settled farming life to the continent some 8,000 years ago. The interdisciplinary BEAN network will address this by
combining teaching and research in three different fields: i) Anthropology and genetics, ii) computer simulation and
modelling, and iii) prehistoric archaeology. Particularly, it will provide state of the art training in palaeo-genomics,
mathematical modelling of prehistoric culture change and statistical demographic inference methods. The network
includes one industrial and seven academic participants and five associates and will incorporate an integrated
educational system that combines intensive specialized training in each subject and rotation of early stage and
advanced researchers. This research has wider impact, for example within the multibillion-euro cultural heritage
industry, and BEAN will include internships at three private sector partners; a biotech company, a tourist company and a
publisher, as well as the German national statistics office. Thus, participants will engage with cutting edge scientific
methods, will combine diverse disciplines and schools of thought and will be guaranteed contact with private companies
and state organisations for further career development. Additionally, there will be a special focus on translational skills,
particularly media relations and scientific writing, both of which will feed into the final “BEAN-book”, which will be coauthored
by ESRs, ERs and PIs, and published by Springer."

Total cost:
EUR 2 535 750,54
EU contribution:
EUR 2 535 750,54
Coordinated in:
Germany
Topic(s):
FP7-PEOPLE-2011-ITN - Marie-Curie Action: "Initial Training Networks"
Call for proposal:
FP7-PEOPLE-2011-ITN
Funding scheme:
MC-ITN - Networks for Initial Training (ITN)
http://beanproject.eu/

and here is the TCD component

"THE PROVOST, FELLOWS, FOUNDATION SCHOLARS & THE OTHER MEMBERS OF BOARD OF
THE COLLEGE OF THE HOLY & UNDIVIDED TRINITY OF QUEEN ELIZABETH NEAR DUBLIN"
College Green
DUBLIN, Ireland
EU cont ribut ion: EUR 257 584,69

Check our the institution title.:).
file:///C:/Users/G00709373.CHINA/Downloads/CORDIS_project_101714_en.pdf

I guess this is partly funding Professor Dan Bradleys Ancient DNA Lab and he does have samples.
He will present at GGI2105 on October 9th.
http://ggi2013.blogspot.co.uk/

J Man
08-31-2015, 04:21 PM
Also this one, which in the long term, may prove to be the most important...

Martínez-Labarga et al ANCIENT BIOMOLECULES: A NEW APPROACH TO STUDY BIOLOGICAL AND CULTURAL HERITAGE OF THE CENTRAL-SOUTHERN ITALIAN POPULATIONS THROUGH 30K YEARS

The research project goals to point out, through a multidisciplinary approach, genetic, nutritional and mobility patterns of the inhabitants of the central-southern Italy, connected to changes in life styles and economic systems, using the new inference power of biomolecular analyses connected with bioarchaeological records. The aim was reached through a large collection of specimens ranging from the Upper Palaeolithic to the present, with an emphasis on the Copper Age, a period in which socio-economic and cultural changes in subsistence strategies occurred with a differentiation and improving of food productivity. As a first task, we report the stable isotope palaeodietary study from several central and southern Italian areas. Stable isotope analyses of carbon and nitrogen were carried out on collagen extracted from almost 400 human bone remains as well as a range of fauna to reconstruct the environmental conditions and individual dietary histories. Moreover, the collagen yields were also used as a prognostic indicator of bone preservation for the selection of samples to be analysed for ancient DNA through standard ancient mitochondrial DNA (amtDNA) sequencing and Next Generation Sequencing (NGS) of nuclear (both autosomal and Y-chromosome) DNA of a sub-set of the human remains collected from the archaeological sites.

Wow this looks very promising!

rozenfeld
10-28-2015, 01:48 PM
We have ancient full genomes from Europe, Siberia, North and South America. Recently the first ancient full genome from Africa was published(Mota, Ethiopia) and soon ancient full genomes from the Middle East(Barcin, Turkey) will be published. However, I cannot recall any ancient full genomes from East, South-East and South Asia. What do you think, when can we expect to see them? Are there any rumors?

Brent.B
10-28-2015, 09:13 PM
Still no Przeworsk or Wielbark (Y-DNA) samples?

yxc
10-28-2015, 10:52 PM
i want to apologize for all the vague assertions I made. I just think that like Dingo dogs had their Wolve past in european habitats . A lot of what is considered South or West-Asian could had been present in Kostenki or czech/austrian Gravettian I dare to say like a U8c

If Harvard makes an ANE race out of Mal'ta boy . How come that constructed ancestral Population is represented by U mtdna which was so abundant in the WHG . Mal'ta culture if there was any , came from a western direction or could eventually had come by a southern route from a true refuge that was on the heavy forested southern Caspian coast to the east most where there are serious cave sites. if I'm not wrong.

rms2
11-12-2015, 12:27 AM
Oh my gosh the Ancient DNA subforum has been dead (or nearly so) lately. Don't those scientists know we need some new stuff to talk about? :bored:

yxc
11-13-2015, 11:40 PM
my Junkie understanding is that there already must have been another >31 ka sample completed or was called off.
If Y remains to be seen, if no Y then these will be just another Dolni Vestonice and the Gravettian any longer can suit for all sorts of hypotheses

Generalissimo
11-14-2015, 12:48 AM
my Junkie understanding is that there already must have been another >31 ka sample completed or was called off.
If Y remains to be seen, if no Y then these will be just another Dolni Vestonice and the Gravettian any longer can suit for all sorts of hypotheses

What are you attempting to communicate here?

Rafe
11-15-2015, 12:30 AM
Does anyone know places we can download Andronovo/Sintashta/Srubnaya DNA already in the appropriate format to run Dodecad/Eurogenes tests?

Generalissimo
11-15-2015, 05:07 AM
Does anyone know places we can download Andronovo/Sintashta/Srubnaya DNA already in the appropriate format to run Dodecad/Eurogenes tests?

There's not much point, because these tests are based on modern allele frequencies and designed for recent ancestry, so they can't be used to compare ancient and modern populations. You'd need to use tests based on ancient allele frequencies, or just formal stats.

Kurd
11-15-2015, 05:33 AM
Here are some results based on the Eurasia 14- Neolithic calculator, which is based on transversion sourced allele frequencies. Refer to the appropriate thread for an explanation of the components. The caveat is accuracy is a little compromised by a lower SNP count, and I did not include a west asian caucasus component for various reasons.



IND
ID
N_Amerindian
Afansievo_Yamnaya
Kalash
Siberian
S_Amerindian
Sub_Saharan
SE_Asian
E_African
SW_Asian
Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers
SHG_WHG
Early_European_Farmers
S_Indian
Papuan


Sintashta_BA
RISE386
0.00%
52.98%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
30.62%
14.11%
0.00%
2.27%
0.00%


Sintashta_BA
RISE391
0.00%
29.15%
0.00%
0.00%
6.41%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
5.07%
0.00%
9.39%
49.98%
0.00%
0.00%


Sintashta_BA
RISE392
1.79%
60.46%
3.31%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
26.73%
7.71%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%


Andronovo_BA1
RISE503
1.45%
45.57%
4.88%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
6.10%
0.00%
0.00%
5.94%
12.39%
22.19%
0.40%
1.07%


Andronovo_BA2
RISE512
0.00%
76.24%
0.00%
18.41%
0.21%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
2.76%
0.00%
2.37%
0.00%


Andronovo_BA3
RISE505
1.07%
49.38%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
0.54%
0.00%
0.00%
17.36%
8.11%
23.53%
0.00%
0.00%


Andronovo_BA4
RISE500
0.00%
62.78%
0.00%
0.00%
3.76%
0.00%
0.49%
0.57%
0.00%
2.64%
7.98%
21.77%
0.00%
0.00%

jeanL
11-17-2015, 12:52 AM
Now that we have an Azilian genome from Switzerland and it appears to be fully WHG, making it at least 15,000 ybp. I wonder when is the genome of the Red Lady of el Miron going to be published, she is 21000 ybp old.


Straus hopes that the Red Lady’s DNA – to be analysed by Svante Pääbo of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany – will provide evidence that it was these Magdalenians in south-western Europe who went on to repopulate northern areas, including Belgium, Germany and the UK.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22530134-200-red-lady-cave-burial-reveals-stone-age-secrets/

Using low resolution HVR-I+II and RFLP coding test she came out mt-DNA Haplogroup H with rCRS.

parasar
11-17-2015, 01:05 AM
Now that we have an Azilian genome from Switzerland and it appears to be fully WHG, making it at least 15,000 ybp. I wonder when is the genome of the Red Lady of el Miron going to be published, she is 21000 ybp old.



https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22530134-200-red-lady-cave-burial-reveals-stone-age-secrets/

Using low resolution HVR-I+II and RFLP coding test she came out mt-DNA Haplogroup H with rCRS.

The other Red Lady (Paviland), mtDNA H per Sykes. He was supposed to be in line to be tested by the Willerslev team.

yxc
11-18-2015, 08:20 PM
all the Steppe was actually nordic blade circum baltic and on Gotland, Aland since .In the extensive studied Area of Elbe there are untill now >100s of mtdna no indication that having been present probably just on occasion >8000bp there later were incorporated in the local LBK newcomers .

All K nowhere east of Caspian untill 10,000 == these are radical interpretations, though not directly made that need a bit more data to back up .
31ka Austria is next on list

Gravetto-Danubian
11-18-2015, 08:29 PM
all the Steppe was actually nordic blade circum baltic and on Gotland, Aland since .In the extensive studied Area of Elbe there are untill now >100s of mtdna no indication that having been present probably just on occasion >8000bp there later were incorporated in the local LBK newcomers .

All K nowhere east of Caspian untill 10,000 == these are radical interpretations, though not directly made that need a bit more data to back up .
31ka Austria is next on list

?? Pardon

can you clarify what you're attempting to communicate

yxc
11-18-2015, 08:53 PM
I meant nowhere west of the Caspian. That's what the common teaching is now. I find it radical.

There were suggestion that first results from the testing of up to 32,000 old remains would come out november .that's what was qouted .

Gravetto-Danubian
11-18-2015, 09:02 PM
I meant nowhere west of the Caspian. That's what the common teaching is now. I find it radical.

There were suggestion that first results from the testing of up to 32,000 old remains would come out november .that's what was qouted .

Yes I understand some more ancient genomes are awaiting from the team by Krause

But I still don't understand the rest of your discussion about the steppe the Baltic and blades

yxc
11-18-2015, 09:12 PM
8,850 bp Bad Durrenberg right next to Karsdorf had mtdna that weren't no where attested in that region untill the Corded Ware.

Jean M
11-18-2015, 09:24 PM
The other Red Lady (Paviland), mtDNA H per Sykes.

That was in the days when Sykes was testing museum bones with no attempt to avoid contamination. He recognised himself later that this assignment was unsafe.

yxc
11-18-2015, 09:24 PM
by steppe the Baltic and the as special labeled so called nordic blade flint technology I mean dare to claim that the Yamnaya like or steppe ancestry had came out the woods in north Europe, circum Baltic .

genetiker
11-24-2015, 01:19 AM
I'm posting some new Y-DNA results here:

More Y haplogroups for prehistoric Eurasian genomes (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/11/24/more-y-haplogroups-for-prehistoric-eurasian-genomes/)

Silesian
11-24-2015, 01:48 AM
I'm posting some new Y-DNA results here:

More Y haplogroups for prehistoric Eurasian genomes (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/11/24/more-y-haplogroups-for-prehistoric-eurasian-genomes/)
Thank-you

I1534 Germany Corded Ware R1a1a-M198 calls
I0122 Russia Khvalynsk R1b1-M415(xP297) calls
Very old? Or am I misreading your work?
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1a/
R-M198M198/PF6238 * F3185/M771 * M515... 40 SNPsformed 14300 ybp, TMRCA 8000 ybpinfo
R1b1M415/PF6251 * L278formed 18400 ybp, TMRCA 16600 ybpinfo

J Man
11-24-2015, 01:54 AM
I'm posting some new Y-DNA results here:

More Y haplogroups for prehistoric Eurasian genomes (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/11/24/more-y-haplogroups-for-prehistoric-eurasian-genomes/)

Have you been able to find the Y-DNA files for the Karelian Mesolithic EHG Y-DNA haplogroup J sample?

genetiker
11-24-2015, 02:16 AM
Have you been able to find the Y-DNA files for the Karelian Mesolithic EHG Y-DNA haplogroup J sample?

Coming up next.

genetiker
11-24-2015, 04:38 AM
I've done what I consider to be the most interesting ones.

Note that I1534, a Corded Ware sample, was said to have been R1b1a2. But according to his genotype data, he was R1a1a-M198.

My finding that I0122 from the Khvalynsk culture was xP297 is significant. Once again, R1b-M269 is missing from Eastern Europe before the Pit Grave culture. Which is consistent with what I've been saying about R1b for almost two years. And inconsistent with what just about everybody else has been saying.

Megalophias
11-24-2015, 05:48 AM
I'm posting some new Y-DNA results here:

More Y haplogroups for prehistoric Eurasian genomes (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/11/24/more-y-haplogroups-for-prehistoric-eurasian-genomes/)

Great, thanks!

A couple of the positive SNPs belong to R1b1-L754, so we can at least say that this R1b does not belong to R1b2-PH1165. Too bad there is nothing for L389 equivalent SNPs.

Coldmountains
11-24-2015, 06:04 AM
Coming up next.

Will you also look at Poltavka R1a and Potapovka? Maybe it is possible to know more about their R1a-Z93 subclades.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-24-2015, 06:05 AM
Will you also look at Poltavka R1a and Potapovka? Maybe it is possible to know more about their R1a-Z93 subclades.

He looked at a coupe of them. Look like R1b..

Coldmountains
11-24-2015, 06:11 AM
He looked at a coupe of them. Look like R1b..

One Poltavka guy was R1a-Z93 and the other R1b.He just looked at the R1b Poltavka guys. I don't see anything about Potapovka on his site.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-24-2015, 06:24 AM
One Poltavka guy was R1a-Z93 and the other R1b.He just looked at the R1b Poltavka guys. I don't see anything about Potapovka on his site.

True. He's only looked at 2 Poltakvka guys

rms2
12-19-2015, 10:48 PM
So, has anyone asked anyone in the know when we are to expect the next round of ancient dna results from Europe? How about western Yamnaya? Any plans to test any of those remains, like some of those from the thousands of kurgans in Hungary?

What about Bell Beaker in the British Isles and Ireland? I know Bradley is working on some ancient Irish remains, but when will he publish the results?

Jean M
12-19-2015, 11:20 PM
Looks like we could be getting some ancient DNA from 2600 BC in Iran, though no promise of Y-DNA. One man, one woman. http://iranfrontpage.com/news/homeland/cultural-heritage/2015/12/4600-year-old-grave-unearthed-in-burnt-city/


The discovery of an ancient grave of a 40-year old woman, which dates back to 4,600 years, has registered a new record in the history of Iran’s excavations. An ancient grave of a 40-year old wealthy woman, containing 112 artifacts, has been discovered in the Burnt City (Shahr-e Soukhteh) site in the southeastern province of Sistan-Baluchestan... Mansour Seyyed Sajjadi, head of the Burnt City’s Excavation Team, said three types of graves have so far been found in the Burnt City including simple ditches, ditches with two sections and burial crypts.

He added it is the second time that a grave, with 112 ancient items, has been discovered at the Burnt City site. “A grave of 32- year-old man and his 10-year-old child, containing 112 relics, was discovered in the Burnt City in 1998,” he said. Seyyed Sajjadi noted that archeologists and genetic specialists have conducted extensive studies on the ancient graves, the skeletons and the relics found in them. “Genetic specialists, speculated that the skeleton unearthed from one grave belonged to a woman whose height was 155cm ,”

rms2
12-21-2015, 04:27 PM
Of course, I am hoping for some more ancient y-dna results from Europe. This place gets really boring in between ancient dna results.

Wiborg
12-22-2015, 09:23 PM
Does anyone know when the Archaic DNA matches-Calculator is getting updated?

nuadha
12-23-2015, 01:28 PM
Of course, I am hoping for some more ancient y-dna results from Europe. This place gets really boring in between ancient dna results.

haha, true that. I think we have been spoiled by such impressive dna results that when we don't have them we get bored and would rather wait for the next set. Speculating on new tidbits or forgotten archeology articles doesn't have the same appeal.

Arame
12-25-2015, 05:34 AM
aDNA addiction. More we get more we want. ;)

J Man
12-25-2015, 05:53 AM
aDNA addiction. More we get more we want. ;)

Very true!

Gravetto-Danubian
12-25-2015, 06:36 AM
I think 2016 will really spoil us

I believe that we can expect a lot of aDNA from eastern europe (ie actual Eastern Europe, not the Volga region ;)) . This will include

- Copper Age Bulgaria - Varna, Yunanitse (2 different teams)

- copper and Bronze Age Romania

- full genomes & Y DNA from Tripolje -Cucuteni

- more from the BEAN collaborative (which brought Neolithic Greek stuff) - Mesolithic and Neilithic data from Serbia and Bulgaria

- Bronze Age samples from Bulgaria

- mtDNA from Bronze Age Greece (and maybe after that full autosomal)

- the Johanes Krause paper on Palaeolithic Europe (including pre-ice age Gravettian samples from Dolni Vestonice)

- Globular amphora culture

- ? More from the Pinhasi team: incl the Iranian Belt caves Mesolithic

- South Asia : Harappan DNA from 2500 BC. Potentially 3 males with Y-DNA and autosomes


I'm sure ive missed stuff

Needless to say, we might be looking at significant modifications of some of our current models

Generalissimo
12-25-2015, 08:28 AM
The Iranian Belt and Hotu Caves paper will include Neolithic and Mesolithic genomes.

paulgill
12-25-2015, 08:53 AM
The Iranian Belt and Hotu Caves paper will include Neolithic and Mesolithic genomes.

When is it coming out?

Generalissimo
12-25-2015, 09:16 AM
When is it coming out?

I don't know. Should be soon.

yxc
12-25-2015, 01:39 PM
- paper on Palaeolithic Europe (including pre-ice age Gravettian samples from Dolni Vestonice)

no Dolni Vestonice but a site in Krems some 100s of km south-west , from the same time interstadial . Don't know about a paper though.

ljiljanm
12-25-2015, 05:40 PM
It would be interesting to see if these people were I y-dna haplogroup. We still have no idea how and when I folks got to Europe. Where was the point when they diverged from their J relatives?
Dolní Věstonice is an upper paleolithic site, and maybe we could change our understanding of both EHG and WHG. I hope coverage is good.
It wouldn't however be surpise at all if they are C hg. This site is very similar to Kostenki (way of life, figurines ...) and why wouldn't have males carried the same hg as Kostenki males.

ljiljanm
12-25-2015, 08:37 PM
Krems is even older than Dolní Věstonice. Here something about this site:https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krems-Wachtberg_(archäologischer_Fundplatz)#
I suppose they are trying to extract dna from the grave where two babies were found. It is estimated that they live before 32000y.

DMXX
12-27-2015, 03:34 PM
My preliminary predictions regarding the upcoming Iranian genomes:

- Mesolithic samples will largely belong to a component related to CHG. I also predict there will be some ANE-like input among them.
- The mesolithic Iranians will be overall more ancestral to modern South-Central Asians than to modern Iranians*. They could end up being the eastern end of "teal" we kept noticing in ADMIXTURE among the Kalash, Pashtuns etc.
- mtDNA U7 and Y-DNA J + G are my guesses regarding the uniparentals (though not exclusively these).
- Neolithic samples will be largely the same, albeit with evidence of genetic input from more western territories (perhaps some actual EEF will trickle in?).

* There's no reason to assume predominant genetic continuity in a country with a crossroads status like Iran. So, I suspect the "Iranian Hunter Gatherer" situation will be analogous to the Anatolian Farmers surviving more copiously in the genomes of modern Europeans and not Turks.

Agamemnon
12-27-2015, 04:04 PM
The Hotu and Belt cave genomes are going to be crucially important to our understanding of J's history in the region, they will either confirm or infirm all previous assessments based on this haplogroup's diversity. I also suspect the Mesolithic individuals are going to look like the CHG samples from Jones et al. for the most part and I think haplogroups T and L will show up in the Neolithic remains (along with EEF-like input). What we won't find will be equally telling, that much is clear.

rozenfeld
12-27-2015, 04:17 PM
I hope next year we will see ancient DNA from Central, Eastern, South-Eastern and South Asia, since thus far there are no ancient DNA of good quality from these regions.

Arbogan
12-27-2015, 09:10 PM
The Iranian Belt and Hotu Caves paper will include Neolithic and Mesolithic genomes. Praise the Lord al'lat and baal hammon. Finally something to do with west Asia proper.

My prediction for the hotu caves:

-They'll be largely similar to iranians without east-African and SW Asian type pastoralist admixture. Probably a combination of neolithic farmers (without WHG) and satsurblia type admixture. Basically eastern neolithic shifted brahuis with perhaps a smudge of south Asian hunter gatherer. But despite lacking east African admixture. They'll be much closer to east Africans via basal eurasian affinities. Mtdna wise probably U and R02 and HV. Y-dna G, j2 and j1.

Gravetto-Danubian
12-27-2015, 11:31 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and raise the possibility of finding some R1 (? R1b) in the Iranian belt caves, in addition to J. :behindsofa:

I hope they get a few male samples.

Dr_McNinja
12-27-2015, 11:56 PM
I hope they try to get a decent NGS-depth look at the Y-DNA. And not just like "J, J1, or J2".

kinman
12-28-2015, 12:21 AM
I still believe Haplogroup I originated in Kurdistan, and then headed west and north. I would be surprised if haplogroup I was found in those Iranian caves (more likely their J relatives already lived there).
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5912-Did-Haplogroup-I-originate-in-Kurdistan
-------Ken
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It would be interesting to see if these people were I y-dna haplogroup. We still have no idea how and when I folks got to Europe. Where was the point when they diverged from their J relatives?
Dolní Věstonice is an upper paleolithic site, and maybe we could change our understanding of both EHG and WHG. I hope coverage is good.
It wouldn't however be surpise at all if they are C hg. This site is very similar to Kostenki (way of life, figurines ...) and why wouldn't have males carried the same hg as Kostenki males.

Agamemnon
12-28-2015, 01:02 AM
I hope they try to get a decent NGS-depth look at the Y-DNA. And not just like "J, J1, or J2".

Totally second that.

kinman
12-28-2015, 01:07 AM
I think I'd stay behind the sofa on that one. :) Just seems too early for Haplogroup R to be in that area (even if V88 happened to go through there on their way to Arabia and Africa). They would have been greatly outnumbered by the native Haplogroup J men of the region.
----------Ken
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm going to go out on a limb and raise the possibility of finding some R1 (? R1b) in the Iranian belt caves, in addition to J. :behindsofa:

I hope they get a few male samples.

Tomenable
12-28-2015, 11:17 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb and raise the possibility of finding some R1 (? R1b) in the Iranian belt caves, in addition to J. :behindsofa:

I hope they get a few male samples.

IIRC, this area (Caspian Sea coast in Northern Iran) is where Underhill found several out of 24 modern samples of R1a-M420* in his 2014 study:


(...) Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey (...) Among the 120 populations with sample sizes of at least 50 individuals and with at least 10% occurrence of R1a, just 6 met these criteria, and 5 of these 6 populations reside in modern-day Iran. Haplogroup diversities among the six populations ranged from 0.78 to 0.86 (Supplementary Table 4). Of the 24 R1a-M420*(xSRY10831.2) chromosomes in our data set, 18 were sampled in Iran and 3 were from eastern Turkey. Similarly, five of the six observed R1a1-SRY10831.2*(xM417/Page7) chromosomes were also from Iran, with the sixth occurring in a Kabardin individual from the Caucasus. Owing to the prevalence of basal lineages and the high levels of haplogroup diversities in the region, we find a compelling case for the Middle East, possibly near present-day Iran, as the geographic origin of hg R1a. (...) Based on spatial distributions and diversity patterns within the R1a-M420 clade, particularly rare basal branches detected primarily within Iran and eastern Turkey, we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran. (...)

kinman
12-28-2015, 03:25 PM
Hi all,
I think Underhill is placing too much trust in modern-day samples. I would not place the origin of R1a in Iran, but rather in or near Kyrgyzstan.
When R1a-Z93 began its expansion from the Kyrgyzstan region into the Middle East and India, some of the more basal members of R1a likely accompanied them into Iran and Turkey. That would explain Underhill's results. Perhaps Underhill needs to do more sampling in the area of Kyrgyzstan, eastern Kazakhstan, etc.
Anyway, this southward expansion of R1a likely occured less than 5000 years ago, so I would be very surprised if any R1a shows up in these older samples in the Iranian belt caves.
--------------Ken
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



IIRC, this area (Caspian Sea coast in Northern Iran) is where Underhill found several out of 24 modern samples of R1a-M420* in his 2014 study:

parasar
12-28-2015, 04:31 PM
Hi all,
I think Underhill is placing too much trust in modern-day samples. I would not place the origin of R1a in Iran, but rather in or near Kyrgyzstan.
When R1a-Z93 began its expansion from the Kyrgyzstan region into the Middle East and India, some of the more basal members of R1a likely accompanied them into Iran and Turkey. That would explain Underhill's results. Perhaps Underhill needs to do more sampling in the area of Kyrgyzstan, eastern Kazakhstan, etc.
Anyway, this southward expansion of R1a likely occured less than 5000 years ago, so I would be very surprised if any R1a shows up in these older samples in the Iranian belt caves.
--------------Ken
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recall the EHG Karelians:
J1 I0211 PF4521, F2114, CTS5934, CTS7028, CTS7229, FGC1599, YSC0000228, CTS11291
and R1a1 "I0061 ... ~5500 BCE ... R1a1a (M515:14054623T→A, M198:15030752C→T, M512:16315153C→T, M514:19375294C→T, L449:22966756C→T"

So R1a1 came into contact with J1 at least by the Mesolithic, and well before the Karelian for them to become autosomally similar. Where do you suppose the contact happened?
See also their mtDNA (U4a and C1g, respectively).

J Man
12-28-2015, 04:44 PM
Recall the EHG Karelians:
J1 I0211 PF4521, F2114, CTS5934, CTS7028, CTS7229, FGC1599, YSC0000228, CTS11291
and R1a1 "I0061 ... ~5500 BCE ... R1a1a (M515:14054623T→A, M198:15030752C→T, M512:16315153C→T, M514:19375294C→T, L449:22966756C→T"

So R1a1 came into contact with J1 at least by the Mesolithic, and well before the Karelian for them to become autosomally similar. Where do you suppose the contact happened?
See also their mtDNA (U4a and C1g, respectively).

It probably happened somewhere in the Southern or Central parts of European Russia.

kinman
12-28-2015, 05:34 PM
I agree,
Most likely J* crossed the Caucasus into European Russia. But I wouldn't rule out an early J* branch going from Anatolia and meeting R1a in Ukraine.
It would take a lot more evidence to determine which path J* took to Karelia.
-------------Ken


It probably happened somewhere in the Southern or Central parts of European Russia.

parasar
12-28-2015, 06:12 PM
The Karelian sample is J1 https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/11/24/more-y-haplogroups-for-prehistoric-eurasian-genomes/

Apparently J1 shows a correlation in its spread with R1a-Z283
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5588-Y-Haplogroup-J-found-in-Karelian-Eastern-Hunter-Gatherer&p=123586&viewfull=1#post123586

Agamemnon
12-28-2015, 06:36 PM
The Karelian sample is J1 https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/11/24/more-y-haplogroups-for-prehistoric-eurasian-genomes/

Apparently J1 shows a correlation in its spread with R1a-Z283
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5588-Y-Haplogroup-J-found-in-Karelian-Eastern-Hunter-Gatherer&p=123586&viewfull=1#post123586

I really fail to see such a correlation, while J1-BY69 is indeed found in eastern Europe, it's also found in Qatar, the UAE and historical Armenia (in what is now eastern Turkey)... And even then, I seriously doubt the Karelian HG from Yuzhniy Ostrov was J1-BY69, let alone J1-Z1828. All we know is that he has several markers found on the same phylogenetic level as M267, in all likeliness he might've belonged to F4306 (like Satsurblia) or another unsuccessful branch.

Heber
12-28-2015, 06:44 PM
Interesting ancient DNA predictions by Davidski for 2016

"Next year the Armenian Plateau hypothesis will collapse

It's been a great year for population genetics and paleogenomics, and also for this blog. I churned out a lot of data in 2015 and managed to make a few discoveries that were subsequently confirmed, or at least, backed up by academia. For instance:

- first to show with ancient genomes that the Anglo-Saxons made a significant genetic impact on England. See here. Eventually confirmed here.

- first to show that the southern admixture in the Yamnaya pastoralists of the Early Bronze Age steppe was Georgian-related rather than Armenian-related. See here. Confirmed here.

- first to show that Anatolian Neolithic farmers were very similar to European Neolithic farmers, and lacked Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) ancestry. See here. Confirmed here.

- first to show using ancient DNA and formal statistics that South Asia experienced massive gene flow originating in Late Neolithic/Bronze Age Europe. See here. Backed up with my help here.

The fact that Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG) like Kotias are essentially an ideal fit for the southern ancestry in the Yamnaya is a big problem for the Armenian Plateau Proto-Indo-European homeland hypothesis. This TreeMix graph shows why.....

Basically, it looks like the Kotias-related ancestry in the Yamnaya came from the North Caucasus, rather than any place closer to the Near East than Georgia. Unless, of course, the southern Caucasus was populated by unadmixed CHG right until the 4th Millennium BC, when the hypothetical Proto-Indo-Europeans from the Armenian Plateau set off on their journey to Northern Europe around the Caspian Sea. But let's be honest, that's extremely unlikely.

Indeed, I expect that next year we'll see the first Neolithic and Copper Age samples from Armenia and/or surrounds, and even though they will be in large part CHG, they'll be nowhere near unadmixed. This will essentially kill the Armenian Plateau hypothesis, and thus leave the Kurgan or steppe hypothesis as the only plausible choice.

In any case, 2016 will probably be the year when ancient DNA helps to settle the Indo-European homeland question once and for all. So get ready for more ancient DNA from the steppe, but also, among others, from Mesolithic and Neolithic Iran, Mycenaean Greece and the Maikop Culture of the North Caucasus. I'm also pretty sure that the Varna man with the golden codpiece will make an appearance in a paper about Neolithic and Copper Age Bulgaria. Bring it on!"

http://eurogenes.blogspot.hk/

Bane
12-28-2015, 06:58 PM
Interesting ancient DNA predictions by Davidski for 2016

- first to show with ancient genomes that the Anglo-Saxons made a significant genetic impact on England.

I thought this was accepted 5 years ago. :)

kinman
12-28-2015, 08:11 PM
Thanks parasar,
I stand corrected. I should have said J1 instead of J*. In any case, I still believe that Haplogroups I and J both originated in the Kurdistan area, and J1 and J2 probably split there as well. But I can't make up my mind whether J1 would have had an easier time getting to Karelia by crossing through the Caucasus and Russia or alternatively going around the Black Sea and through Ukraine.
-----------Ken
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I agree,
Most likely J* crossed the Caucasus into European Russia. But I wouldn't rule out an early J* branch going from Anatolia and meeting R1a in Ukraine.
It would take a lot more evidence to determine which path J* took to Karelia.
-------------Ken

rozenfeld
12-28-2015, 08:38 PM
We've got it! Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/12/22/1518445113

Jean M
12-28-2015, 08:40 PM
We've got it! Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/12/22/1518445113

Needs its own thread I think! Anyone care to start one? The paper has already been reported on the New papers thread.

VinceT
12-29-2015, 01:40 AM
We've got it! Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/12/22/1518445113

Wow! This puts R-DF21 circa 2000 BCE in Ireland. All samples were from Glebe, Rathlin Island (Church Bay) (https://www.google.ca/maps/place/St.+Thomas's+%28Church+of+Ireland%29/@55.2920265,-6.2030719,15.75z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x4861d654fb2dcd1b:0x615a20f363075 f55).

Rathlin1 2026-1885 cal BC Early Bronze Age R1b1a2a1a2c1g = R-DF21/S192
Rathlin2 2024-1741 cal BC Early Bronze Age R1b1a2a1a2c1 = R-DF13/S521/CTS241
Rathlin3 1736-1534 cal BC Early Bronze Age R1b1a2a1a2c = R-L21/M529/S145


The three individuals from Rathlin Island were discovered during excavations in Church Bay in 2006 (4). The style of burial, the associated pottery and radiocarbon dates derived from the three individuals (Table S1.1) indicated that they were Early Bronze Age in date. C127 was a 40-60 year old male who had been buried in the interior of a stone cist (C124). He was lying on his left side in a crouched position along a north-south orientation, with the head to the north. He was a robust individual who would have had a height of approximately 5’11”. His bones revealed signs of an active lifestyle and osteoarthritis, Schmorl’s nodes and torsion of a number of lumbar spinous processes were apparent in his vertebrae, while os acromiale was visible in his left scapula. The tuber of his left calcaneus displayed healed lytic lesions which may have been caused by a soft tissue injury of his heel at some stage during his life (5). The remains of a complete tripartite bowl Food Vessel were recovered adjacent to his lower legs in the south-east corner of the cist (6). C122 (Sk 1) and C105 (Sk 2) were both young adult males whose disarticulated remains were recovered in association with a disturbed cist (C112) adjacent to the complete cist (C124). Disarticulated bone from an adult female was also recovered from the deposit. Signs of infection or inflammation were visible in the right parietal and mastoid region of the cranium of C122 (Sk 1) and in the right scapula of C105 (Sk 2) (5). The practice of using a single cist for the interment of multiple individuals was also identified during excavations on Rathlin during the 1980s when Kenny Wiggins discovered a cist that contained the remains of at least five individuals (Grave 2). Interestingly, the radiocarbon dates of C122 (Sk 1) and C105 (Sk 2) revealed that it would have been impossible for them to have been buried at the same time. As such, it is possible that the cist had been re-opened at some stage to facilitate further burials or that one of the individuals was an ‘ancestor’ whose remains had been curated for a period of time prior to their burial in the cist (4).

Tomenable
12-29-2015, 03:02 AM
I really fail to see such a correlation, while J1-BY69 is indeed found in eastern Europe, it's also found in Qatar, the UAE and historical Armenia (in what is now eastern Turkey)...

Weren't the Arabs (Qatar, UAE, etc.) importing lots of Eastern European slaves during the Middle Ages, though ???

Viktor Reznov
12-29-2015, 03:08 AM
Weren't the Arabs (Qatar, UAE, etc.) importing lots of Eastern European slaves during the Middle Ages, though ???

Even if so, Arabs don't show a significant Eastern European component. So those slaves probably did not leave any offspring.

Tomenable
12-29-2015, 03:26 AM
So, maybe an Y-DNA founder effect by a few exceptionally successful (with Arab women) slave guys ???

Historical texts show examples of European slaves who achieved freedom and high status in the Muslim World.

Tomenable
12-29-2015, 03:34 AM
I'll quote historian Adam Sengebusch, essay titled "Slavs, their migrations, homelands and ethnic environment in Early Medieval Europe":

Many ethnic Slavs (and perhaps other Eastern Europeans too) who were either sold into Muslim slavery or resettled by Byzantine Emperors from the Balkans into the Byzantine-Muslim borderland for border protection purposes, were described in historical texts:

Some excerpts, translated from Polish:


Asia Minor... area inhabited in early period of existence of the Empire by the Greeks, the Izaurians, the Celts, the Armenians, the Arabs, the Jews, the Persians and other, more or less numerous peoples. During the 7th century into that melting pot of ethnic groups penetrated also Slavs, some of whom migrated to that region of their own free will, while others were resettled there by Byzantine rulers.

[such resettlements of Slavs from the Balkans - both prisoners of war from independent tribes and subjects from dependent tribes - into Asia Minor were organized by Byzantine Emperors in years: 656 AD, as well as ca. 690 AD, ca. 710 AD - after victory over the Bulgarians in the battle of Salonica - and later by Emperor Constantine V (741-775) and by Empress regnant Irene of Athens (after 780). Some Slavic tribes or clans / groups also migrated to Asia Minor on their own - with permission from Byzantine Emperors]:

According to account by Nikephoros I after internal struggles for power between Bulgarian clans in the 760s and the takeover of power by Khan Telec, who supported hostile policies towards the Byzantine Empire and Slavic tribes, over 200,000 Slavs asked the Emperor for asylum. The Emperor granted them asylum and entire mass of people settled in Bithynia along the Artanas River and in the region of Sinope. Other, perhaps not that numerous, Slavic communities were settled by Byzantine authorities as military settlers (to defend the borders) near the Byzantine-Arab border, and later, near the borders with Turkish states.

From among ethnic Slavic settlers and prisoners of war arose some of well-known Byzantine historical figures. Some of them left good impression of themselves, some other caused chaos and left bloody stains in chronicles. For example in 779 died the Patriarch of Constantinople, Nicetas, who was of Slavic descent. 44 years later died famous Thomas, known as the Slav. This Thomas in 820 gained support from the Arabs and from European provinces of the Empire, and declared himself the new Emperor. He fought bloody and fierce combats against his counter-candidates to the throne. During the rebellion of Thomas, his antagonist - Michael II - was concerned that Peloponnesian Slavic tribes would support Thomas, but the rebellion probably had more of a political and economic than "national" or ethnic background.

[see Thomas the Slav: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Slav

Thomas the Slav (c. 760 – October 823 AD) was a 9th-century Byzantine military commander, most notable for leading a wide-scale revolt in 821–23 against Emperor Michael II the Amorian (ruled 820–29). An army officer of Slavic origin from the Pontus region (now north-eastern Turkey), Thomas rose to prominence, along with the future emperors Michael II and Leo V the Armenian (r. 813–820), under the protection of general Bardanes Tourkos.]

Slavic communities living in Asia Minor were getting assimilated relatively slowly. In 949 Byzantine units preparing to recapture Crete from Muslim hands consisted mostly of Slavs recruited from Slavic communities living in the region of Opsikon. What is interesting, those units were also led by Slavic commanders. Even after dozens of years, there were still Slavic-speaking communities in Bithynia. One of them was called Sagoudaos. John II Comnenus (1118 - 1143) contributed to the strengthening of Slavic ethnos in that region, colonizing some areas near Nicomedia with captured Serbian prisoners. Information about Serbian settlements in that region continue to appear even during the 13th century.

In 663 AD a group of 5,000 Slavs supported the Arab invasion under certain Abderachman, son of Chaledos. After the invasion they returned with his army to Arab lands and settled in Syria in the region of Apamea, in and near the town of Seleukobolos. Several dozen years later another group of Slavic traitors [traitors to the Byzantines, not to themselves] - 20,000 under the leadership of certain Nebulos - supported the Arabs. In reward for their support, Arab Caliph granted them land to settle in northern Syria, near Antioch.

In 737 Muslim army (numbering according to sources even 100,000 men), under command of certain Marwan (future Caliph) attacked Slavic-inhabited lands of the Khazar realm. When returning back to his land, Marwan took with him 20,000 Slavic families (!) and settled them in his land.

In the 9th century in Muslim lands there were large Slavic-speaking communities for example near al-Chusus (near the Arab-Byzantine border), in Hisn Salman (near Aleppo), near Hisn Zijad (at the upper Euphrates). According to one Muslim writer in the 9th century there were also enclaves of independent, self-governing Slavic communities in southern Armenia - and they were still Pagan (!).

Some of ethnic Slavs achieved high-ranking status in the Arab, Muslim world. During the reign of Marwan ibn Muhammad (744-750), his chamberlain was a liberated slave, and he was ethnically Slavic (according to Al-Baladuri). Two individuals of Slavic descent (but converted to Islam) - Salman and Zijad - were commanders of Muslim armies fighting in Armenia and Asia Minor in the mid-8th century. Slavs were especially favoured by Fatimid rulers. Certain Muzaffat, Slavic by descent, was in 952 - 975 the governor of the eastern part of the Caliphate. And Slavic general of Fatimid armies - Dzauha - conquered Egypt for this dynasty, and founded the city of Cairo.

Slavs also lived in cities and villages of Arabic Mesopotamia - usually they were slaves, and according to one of Muslim early 9th century poets, their number was so great that the streets of Baghdad looked like fields infested by locust (he could easily distinguish Slavs from locals, because Slavs had fair skin and most of them had fair hair).

(...) In the third decade of the 10th century, due to Byzantine threat, came from Tripoli Emir Masud the Slav (Masud Sāqlābi) - of Slavic descent - and together with his druzhina he captured the strategically important castle of Santa Agata. From the same period we have information about Slavic settlements on Sicily - one of them was called Sclafani - and about the district of Palermo called Hārat as-Sāqāliba. Also bases of Slavic pirates existed on that island - those could be pirates from the South Slavic tribe of Narentines, who during their pirate raids plundered even the coasts of Spain. Last information about ethnic Slavs in that region is from the 12th century. (...)

Tomenable
12-29-2015, 03:43 AM
Most of those Slavs were South Slavs from the Balkans, rather than North Slavs.

Maybe that's why there is not so much of North-Eastern European admixture.

"Eastern European" admixture as defined by Dodecad, is in fact "North-Eastern":

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-European-admixture.gif

Arbogan
12-29-2015, 08:22 PM
I'll quote historian Adam Sengebusch, essay titled "Slavs, their migrations, homelands and ethnic environment in Early Medieval Europe":

Many ethnic Slavs (and perhaps other Eastern Europeans too) who were either sold into Muslim slavery or resettled by Byzantine Emperors from the Balkans into the Byzantine-Muslim borderland for border protection purposes, were described in historical texts:

Some excerpts, translated from Polish:
This would be interesting. If these communities existed. They have left no footprints at all. Even people in the zagros have more east euro like admixture. Than their Arab neighbours. Turkey for sure does have some slavic admixture.

Agamemnon
12-30-2015, 12:29 AM
Weren't the Arabs (Qatar, UAE, etc.) importing lots of Eastern European slaves during the Middle Ages, though ???

Sure they were, that's just not a very good explanation as to how a ~8,000 kya old branch of J1 ended up both in Eastern Europe and in Arabia. Besides, BY69 is phylogenetically close to Z1842 (they're on the same phylogenetic level), which is the most successful J1 branch after P58 despite being found mostly in Eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus (if you ask me, that's enough to anchor Z1828 in this part of the world, so the same counts for BY69).
And in any case, it was standard arab practice to castrate male slaves if they couldn't serve in their highly professional slave armies... I won't even bother mentioning the fact that some of these BY69 cases from Arabia have relatively convincing arabian backgrounds (I'm talking about their tribal affiliation).

RCO
12-30-2015, 01:49 AM
The complete J1 census is still to be finalized. Important regions with big populations are still extremely undersampled in Northern Near Eastern and ancient SNPs had not been investigated at all. Just in case I think my own J1-M365 branch expanded a lot because we saw and won all wars and big territories in the last 1000 years in Western Iberia and in South America and we had a tremendous star-like logarithmic growth in Brazil and in the former Portuguese Empire what means a big number nowadays not seen everywhere, so we can try to calculate demographic "success" with attention because not all regions are present in some of the labs tested samples.

paulgill
12-30-2015, 01:49 AM
Sure they were, that's just not a very good explanation as to how a ~8,000 kya old branch of J1 ended up both in Eastern Europe and in Arabia. Besides, BY69 is phylogenetically close to Z1842 (they're on the same phylogenetic level), which is the most successful J1 branch after P58 despite being found mostly in Eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus (if you ask me, that's enough to anchor Z1828 in this part of the world, so the same counts for BY69).
And in any case, it was standard arab practice to castrate male slaves if they couldn't serve in their highly professional slave armies... I won't even bother mentioning the fact that some of these BY69 cases from Arabia have relatively convincing arabian backgrounds (I'm talking about their tribal affiliation).

A little off topic but some may find it useful.

Not only that branch but most branches of J1-P58>>Z1853 are also found only out side of Arabia, https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267/default.aspx?section=yresults, look under 004. J-Z1853 Cluster. I recently got my WGS results and share 11 SNPs with N116114 Phillips Mikkel Ingebrets Lunnerstua c.1679-1738 Lunner OPL Norway, and have now formed a new subclade ZS3668 downstream of Z1853 and Z1853 actually have now become only a part of another newly formed subclade Z643.

RCO
12-30-2015, 01:57 AM
It's important because (J1) SNPs from places like Iran, Central Asia, Pakistan and India with big populations have not been or are still not sampled or investigated.

rozenfeld
12-30-2015, 01:07 PM
Rakhigarhi: Indian town could unlock mystery of Indus civilisation (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/30/rakhigarhi-indian-town-unlock-mystery-indus-civilisation)

Some quotes from article: .


One has stood out: who exactly were the people of the Indus civilisation? A response may come within weeks.

“Our research will most definitely provide an answer. This will be a major breakthrough. I am very excited,” said Vasant Shinde, an Indian archaeologist leading current excavations at Rakhigarhi, which was discovered in 1965.

Shinde’s conclusions will be published in the new year. They are based on DNA sequences derived from four skeletons – of two men, a woman and a child – excavated eight months ago and checked against DNA data from tens of thousands of people from all across the subcontinent, central Asia and Iran.

As far as I remember, the samples were sent to a South Korean lab. Given the conditions (very hot climate), there are very few DNA left, so may be they will publish only mtDNA?

Dr_McNinja
12-30-2015, 06:35 PM
I'll quote historian Adam Sengebusch, essay titled "Slavs, their migrations, homelands and ethnic environment in Early Medieval Europe":

Many ethnic Slavs (and perhaps other Eastern Europeans too) who were either sold into Muslim slavery or resettled by Byzantine Emperors from the Balkans into the Byzantine-Muslim borderland for border protection purposes, were described in historical texts:

Some excerpts, translated from Polish:
Are there any genetic traces of them in Levantine Y-DNA?

rozenfeld
01-09-2016, 07:26 PM
I found this video: https://youtu.be/e8B7cq-UaVE?t=57m47s

Starting from 57:47, Alan Cooper talks about their upcoming work about ancient DNA from South America. The description says that it was filmed on 7 July 2015 and he says that the paper will be published soon. I couldn't find this paper. Was it published?

rms2
01-10-2016, 05:43 PM
I've heard we're to expect a number of scientific papers with ancient dna results this year, including at least one on Bell Beaker in Europe. Could dna testing results from the Amesbury Archer be among those? If you look at this Wessex Archaeology site (http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/book/export/html/5), you will find a quote from Dr. Andrew Fitzpatrick that says, referring to the Archer and another Beaker man buried nearby,



. . . We will be looking to DNA analyses to say if these two men were linked genetically.


Scroll down to "Treasure Inquest on the Amesbury Archer" to find the quote (at the bottom of the article).

It looks like the page may have last been updated in November of 2011, but I am hopeful we'll get some dna test results from the Archer this year, especially y-dna and especially since we are pretty sure he was born on the Continent. His burial dates to about 2300 BC and he is a Bell Beaker man, so his test results would be really good to have.

Asimakidis
01-14-2016, 08:37 PM
#Tomenable On myOrigins FTDNA, my maternal uncle has 3% Eastern Europe..rest 97 % Asia minor..perhaps the explanation is found.

Heber
01-14-2016, 09:11 PM
The closing meeting of the BEAN (Bridging the European and Anatolian Neolithic) is held this week in Turkey.

BEAN Closing Meeting
14 JAN 15 JAN 2016
The BEAN ITN will hold its closing meeting at the Akka Antedon Hotel in Kemer, Antalya, Turkey from 14-15 January 2016. The programme can be found here.

http://beanproject.eu/sites/default/files/event-files/bean_meeting_programme_rfs.pdf

rms2
01-15-2016, 12:44 AM
The closing meeting of the BEAN (Bridging the European and Anatolian Neolithic) is held this week in Turkey.

BEAN Closing Meeting
14 JAN 15 JAN 2016
The BEAN ITN will hold its closing meeting at the Akka Antedon Hotel in Kemer, Antalya, Turkey from 14-15 January 2016. The programme can be found here.

http://beanproject.eu/sites/default/files/event-files/bean_meeting_programme_rfs.pdf

Closing meeting? Does that mean BEAN is no more?

rozenfeld
01-17-2016, 09:01 PM
Apparently 10 000 years old remains from Northern Kenya will be studied in Cambridge: http://www.human-evol.cam.ac.uk/cambridge-nerc-human-evolution-studentships.pdf

It would be nice to compare them with Mota.

Megalophias
01-17-2016, 11:28 PM
Holy crap, it would be an amazing technical achievement to get 10 000 year old DNA from Kenya. Sure hope it works.

Heber
01-18-2016, 12:39 PM
Closing meeting? Does that mean BEAN is no more?


2012-02-01
2535750 euro
Networks for Initial Training (ITN)
2016-01-31
Execution
2535750 euro

It started in 2012 and ends 2016-01-31.
It was funded by FP7, The EU Seventh Framework Program, which has now ended replaced by FP8 Horizon2020.
It's focus and that of last weeks conference was Anatolia and the Neolithic.
http://beanproject.eu/sites/default/files/event-files/bean_meeting_programme_rfs.pdf

The latest paper from early January locates the European Neolithic in Anatolia.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2016-01/su-tfe010416.php

I understand Dan Bradley's ancient DNA Lab was partly funded using this project so we are getting indirect benefit for Bronze Age, R1b, Rathlin etc.

This in one of the TCD contributions:

Orienting Y-chromosome lineages in space and time

September, 2012 to September, 2015
This project aims to produce time-stamped Y-chromosome lineages to investigate different hypotheses surrounding the migration of farmers from the Near East into Europe. The researcher in Dublin will re-sequence the major non-repetitive regions of the Y chromosome in ancient samples, covering positions where SNPs have already been ascertained from modern samples and embedding these specimens in existing phylogenetic patterns. This resequencing campaign will also uncover relationships that may be unobtainable from modern study but which may be critical in interpreting relationships among ancient groups.

http://beanproject.eu/job/orienting-y-chromosome-lineages-space-and-time

Dubhthach
01-19-2016, 08:18 PM
Trinity College strike again, 7 genomes from Romano-British period from York, saw a report on RTÉ news on tv.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0119/761380-york-archaeology/http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0119/761380-york-archaeology/

It's up on Nature:
http://nature.com/articles/doi:10.1038/ncomms10408

Edit that might be wrong link, some coverage

Irish Times
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/trinity-scientists-reveal-secrets-of-bodies-in-york-1.2502494

BBC
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35344663

Jean M
01-19-2016, 08:20 PM
Trinity College strike again, 7 genomes from Romano-British period from York, saw a report on RTÉ news on tv.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0119/761380-york-archaeology/http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0119/761380-york-archaeology/

It's up on Nature:
http://nature.com/articles/doi:10.1038/ncomms10408

I reported it earlier on the aDNA news thread http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=134606&viewfull=1#post134606

As I said there, this paper was mentioned by Prof Bradley at GGI in Dublin last October, but the audience was sworn to secrecy.

There is a thread to discuss it at http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6263-Genomic-signals-of-migration-and-continuity-in-Britain-before-the-Anglo-Saxons

rozenfeld
01-31-2016, 10:32 PM
Ok, any idea about when the next batch of aDNA results will be published? There are rumors about new papers by Reich and Willerslev labs, but I have no idea when they will be published. I hope for ancient genomes from East Asia.

Also there is paper about Rakhigarhi, however I am not sure whether it will be genome-wide data or mtDNA and Y-DNA only.

rms2
02-03-2016, 06:45 PM
Ok, any idea about when the next batch of aDNA results will be published? There are rumors about new papers by Reich and Willerslev labs, but I have no idea when they will be published. I hope for ancient genomes from East Asia.

Also there is paper about Rakhigarhi, however I am not sure whether it will be genome-wide data or mtDNA and Y-DNA only.

I am wondering the same thing, although my primary interest is Europe.

J Man
02-03-2016, 09:35 PM
More ancient Y-DNA from the Near East, Caucasus, Eastern Europe and Central Asia would be great!

Shamash
02-04-2016, 08:23 PM
More ancient Y-DNA from the Near East, Caucasus, Eastern Europe and Central Asia would be great!

Ancient Near East DNA is long overdue!

Jean M
02-18-2016, 02:41 PM
David W. says: Natufians in the lab
http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/natufians-in-lab.html


Their genomes are being sequenced at La Trobe Uni in Melbourne. I have a hunch that these samples will play a crucial role in our understating of the genetic structure of early Neolithic farmers, and thus all present-day West Eurasians. Why, you might ask? Two words: Basal Eurasians. It is just a hunch though.


The palaeogenomic basis of social organisation in the earliest sedentary villages

This project will employ the latest Next Generation Sequencing (NGS) technologies to recover low coverage genomes that will allow the researchers to conduct population genomic analysis on skeletal remains from seven individuals from Wadi Hammeh 27. Recently, these NGS technologies have been used to shed light on the spread of farming cultures from the Near East to Europe (e.g. Skoglund et al. 2012), but nothing is known of the genetics of the pre-agrarian populations. If the genetic variability of the Wadi Hammeh 27 population was relatively high, there will be a good chance of tracing specific kin relationships between individuals and testing the patrilocal model of social organisation. The genomic data can also be used to investigate the genetic origins of the Natufians and trace their genetic input to subsequent populations. A pilot study on a human third molar from the site has already determined the presence of sufficient ancient human DNA for further analysis in the sample. The remains of all seven individuals (Webb and Edwards 2013, Webb and Edwards 2002) include teeth, which are the best potential samples for ancient DNA analyses. The samples are stored at The University of Sydney and are administered by Dr Phillip Edwards (La Trobe) under permit from the Department of Antiquities of Jordan.
Source: La Trobe University Website > Current Research Projects > Migration and Mobilities: Ancient and Current. http://www.latrobe.edu.au/research/research-focus-areas/transforming-human-societies/current-activities/migration-and-mobilities

parasar
02-18-2016, 03:12 PM
David W. says: Natufians in the lab
http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/natufians-in-lab.html

Is there continuity (cultural, archaeological, anthropological) from the Natufian to the present in the region?
If there is then we should expect mtdna L2, L3, N, etc. and Y-J, E.

Europe and W. Caucasus showed striking continuity from Bichon/Satsurblia to the present.
"Bichon, like younger WHG, shows strongest affinity to northern Europeans (Supplementary Fig. 3), while contemporary southern Caucasus populations are the closest to CHG (Fig. 4a and Supplementary Fig. 3), thus implying a degree of continuity in both regions stretching back at least 13,000 years to the late Upper Palaeolithic. Continuity in the Caucasus is also supported by the mitochondrial and Y chromosomal haplogroups of Kotias (H13c and J2a, respectively) and Satsurblia (K3 and J), which are all found at high frequencies in Georgia today22, 23, 24 (Supplementary Note 8)."

Krefter
02-18-2016, 03:18 PM
Is there continuity (cultural, archaeological, anthropological) from the Natufian to the present in the region?
If there is then we should expect mtdna L2, L3, N, etc. and Y-J, E.

L2 and L3(xM, N) are African. So, do you think they were part African? It's more likely IMO, they had lots of R0, R2'JT, and K. Basal Eurasian, if it is real, should have mtDNA decendants in West Euraians. So, maybe they'd have R0 or N1 or R2. It won't all be extinct N*, M*.

parasar
02-18-2016, 04:00 PM
L2 and L3(xM, N) are African. So, do you think they were part African? It's more likely IMO, they had lots of R0, R2'JT, and K. Basal Eurasian, if it is real, should have mtDNA decendants in West Euraians. So, maybe they'd have R0 or N1 or R2. It won't all be extinct N*, M*.

Most lines from that time-frame will almost certainly be extinct. That is the nature of things. Though yes a few lines that still survive may be found, but most modern lines should be collateral to 10,000 year old lines. Yes mtDNA R0, N1, W etc. are indeed possible.

My picks were mainly based on what I think happened after the Ice age with populations recovering in different regions - C. Europe, SE Europe (incld. Anatolia), Caucasus, India, China all coming down from that recovery period. In Eurasia Y-R maybe an exception in that it was parasitic in some of these recoveries.

On the Y side as E and J are most common at present in Syrians, Lebanese, and Palestinians, so I picked those.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SopYW19qzQI/AAAAAAAAB9U/6cdlguuye-k/s1600/FigureS1.jpg

J Man
02-18-2016, 04:10 PM
Is there continuity (cultural, archaeological, anthropological) from the Natufian to the present in the region?
If there is then we should expect mtdna L2, L3, N, etc. and Y-J, E.

Europe and W. Caucasus showed striking continuity from Bichon/Satsurblia to the present.
"Bichon, like younger WHG, shows strongest affinity to northern Europeans (Supplementary Fig. 3), while contemporary southern Caucasus populations are the closest to CHG (Fig. 4a and Supplementary Fig. 3), thus implying a degree of continuity in both regions stretching back at least 13,000 years to the late Upper Palaeolithic. Continuity in the Caucasus is also supported by the mitochondrial and Y chromosomal haplogroups of Kotias (H13c and J2a, respectively) and Satsurblia (K3 and J), which are all found at high frequencies in Georgia today22, 23, 24 (Supplementary Note 8)."

I do not think that J was that far South then so much. I am going with E and G for Y-DNA.

Krefter
02-18-2016, 04:46 PM
Most lines from that time-frame will almost certainly be extinct. That is the nature of things. Though yes a few lines that still survive may be found, but most modern lines should be collateral to 10,000 year old lines. Yes mtDNA R0, N1, W etc. are indeed possible.

You're probably right on this. But, then I'd expect extinct forms of R0 or R2 or N1 or etc. Just like how we get extinct U5s and U2es in Paleolithic Europe. Or actually, not extinct forms of R0/etc. mtDNA from Europe that's 10,000-15,000 years old, is mostly extinct but closely related to popular U5 clades today.

rms2
02-18-2016, 05:28 PM
I must be spoiled now, because this place is only really interesting to me when there is some new round of ancient y-dna results from Europe or nearby in Asia.

So lately it has been dreadfully dull.

Agamemnon
02-18-2016, 05:57 PM
I very much doubt the Natufians carried Y-DNA haplogroup J, though anything is possible I guess (including some sort of correlation between J and Basal Eurasian), I think G2a is a far safer bet along with T and perhaps E-M35.1 will show up though I'm not exactly sure about the latter. It's possible R1b-V88 will also make its appearance.

J Man
02-18-2016, 06:25 PM
I very much doubt the Natufians carried Y-DNA haplogroup J, though anything is possible I guess (including some sort of correlation between J and Basal Eurasian), I think G2a is a far safer bet along with T and perhaps E-M35.1 will show up though I'm not exactly sure about the latter. It's possible R1b-V88 will also make its appearance.

I agree with you on this.

Jean M
02-19-2016, 11:53 AM
An exhibition at the Museum of Edinburgh "Dark Goings on in Cramond" reveals that the DNA of the group of 6th century AD burials there thought to be of the Gododdin royal family is among the samples to be tested by the team at The Natural History Museum in London, as part of the project described here: http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/our-work/origins-evolution-and-futures/human-adaptation-diet-disease.html

From the exhibition panel on the topic:

The Cramond skeletons are being analysed as part of an ongoing UK wide DNA research project being undertaken by London’s Natural History Museum. Funded by the Wellcome Trust, the project is investigating how the genetics of British people have changed over the last 12,000 years as a result of natural selection and migration. The results will show how people in Britain have adapted to changes in diet and exposure to disease and will help chart patterns of historic migrations into Britain.

DNA preservation in archaeological skeletons is extremely variable, for example due to the age of the remains, where they were buried and how they were treated after death. Of the six Cramond burials sampled by September 2015, results show that five out of the six contain sufficient quantities of preserved human DNA to allow further analysis. Burial 6 has been preliminarily tested and the results support the other research findings. They show she was likely to have been female, confirming the forensic assessment, and comparisons of her DNA with modern populations indicate that it looks most like those from North-West and Central Europe. This supports the isotopic analysis which suggests that she grew up locally.

It is hoped that further analysis of these samples will identify if the bodies buried at Cramond were related and therefore if it was a family tomb. It may also help to reveal their eye, skin and hair colour, providing more accurate detail for the facial reconstructions.

http://openvirtualworlds.org/cramondstory/exhibits/show/historiccramond/darkgoingsonincramond

David Mc
02-19-2016, 05:38 PM
Thanks for that, Jean. I had sent an email asking about the level of their testing some time back, but never receive a reply. I am very, very happy that they are pursuing this.

Jean M
02-19-2016, 08:08 PM
Thanks for that, Jean. I had sent an email asking about the level of their testing some time back, but never receive a reply. I am very, very happy that they are pursuing this.

Looks to me as though teams with research grants for aDNA are keenly competing for bone samples that would fit their research projects. So instead of having to find the cash themselves for aDNA testing, archaeology units are going to get quite a lot of it done free over the next few years.

There is a hint in the March/April issue of British Archaeology that another Beaker burial near Stonehenge (the Stonehenge Archer - not the Amesbury Archer) will be in a package that has gone off to someone's lab. The article says (p. 32):


The Stonehenge Archer has not yet had his DNA analysed, but new research reveals that Bell Beaker people - the culture to which he belonged - had genetic ancestry that extended back to people of the Eurasian steppes, mixed with genes of western European neolithic farmers.

MacUalraig
02-19-2016, 08:12 PM
An exhibition at the Museum of Edinburgh "Dark Goings on in Cramond" reveals that the DNA of the group of 6th century AD burials there thought to be of the Gododdin royal family is among the samples to be tested by the team at The Natural History Museum in London, as part of the project described here: http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/our-work/origins-evolution-and-futures/human-adaptation-diet-disease.html

From the exhibition panel on the topic:


http://openvirtualworlds.org/cramondstory/exhibits/show/historiccramond/darkgoingsonincramond

Can't wait. Went there a few years ago and was nearly born in Edinburgh...

7860

castle3
02-20-2016, 09:04 AM
Thanks Jean. Let's hope for some deep Y-DNA analysis. Does anyone have a date for publication of the DNA results? On a different tack: I contacted Aberdeen Univ, who were stating in 2015 that they would be analysing ancient Scottish DNA, but heard nothing back re their progress.

MitchellSince1893
02-25-2016, 10:40 PM
I must be spoiled now, because this place is only really interesting to me when there is some new round of ancient y-dna results from Europe or nearby in Asia.

So lately it has been dreadfully dull.

Yes I think we are in the proverbial doldrums
a state or period of inactivity, stagnation, or slump
Unless a new paper comes out, or I get a close BigY match, my next genetic genealogical excitement is about a month out, when my father's paternal half sister's 23andme results and his closest STR match's Full Genome results come out.

I too have gotten spoiled.

Kwheaton
02-26-2016, 03:01 PM
An exhibition at the Museum of Edinburgh "Dark Goings on in Cramond" reveals that the DNA of the group of 6th century AD burials there thought to be of the Gododdin royal family is among the samples to be tested by the team at The Natural History Museum in London, as part of the project described here: http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/our-work/origins-evolution-and-futures/human-adaptation-diet-disease.html

From the exhibition panel on the topic:


http://openvirtualworlds.org/cramondstory/exhibits/show/historiccramond/darkgoingsonincramond

Too bad this exhibit closes before I get to Edinburgh!

And yes the doldrums does set in after all the recent excitement....

castle3
02-27-2016, 07:26 AM
I must be spoiled now, because this place is only really interesting to me when there is some new round of ancient y-dna results from Europe or nearby in Asia.

So lately it has been dreadfully dull.

This is what I feared would happen when we were all split into our numerous, separate subclades. My S389/L624 group is present in about 1% of the population, and mainly in Scotland. This means that I tend to have a long wait for other S389/L624 matches. Luckily, I'm keen to learn about their ancient origins, including their pre-British Isles' roots. However, ancient DNA results aren't exactly flooding in. I appreciate that knowing the origins of other HGs from very different stock helps build the bigger picture, but I can't get the same buzz from such data.
Also, in 2015, I kept hearing of ancient DNA tests of Scottish human remains, but nothing seems to be filtering through. Very frustrating!

angscoire
02-27-2016, 10:42 AM
This is what I feared would happen when we were all split into our numerous, separate subclades. My S389/L624 group is present in about 1% of the population, and mainly in Scotland. This means that I tend to have a long wait for other S389/L624 matches. Luckily, I'm keen to learn about their ancient origins, including their pre-British Isles' roots. However, ancient DNA results aren't exactly flooding in. I appreciate that knowing the origins of other HGs from very different stock helps build the bigger picture, but I can't get the same buzz from such data.
Also, in 2015, I kept hearing of ancient DNA tests of Scottish human remains, but nothing seems to be filtering through. Very frustrating!

Bell Beaker, Neolithic and other remains from Scotland are definitely being analyzed , that's all we know. As for waiting an age for ancient British DNA to yield your clade - try being an R1a Brit !

castle3
02-27-2016, 11:12 AM
Bell Beaker, Neolithic and other remains from Scotland are definitely being analyzed , that's all we know. As for waiting an age for ancient British DNA to yield your clade - try being an R1a Brit !

That must be difficult. That said, I can't fathom why a rough estimate can't be proffered by Aberdeen Univ & others. For example, even a 'mid-summer' or 'late-autumn' estimate would reassure people that testing hasn't been stopped for some reason.

rozenfeld
02-29-2016, 01:19 PM
I recently found a story on a Russian website: http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2725403, which seems to be a tranlation of a story from the French website: http://www.sciencesetavenir.fr/archeo-paleo/archeologie/20160219.OBS4955/merovingiens-quand-le-poil-etait-roi.html , that is based on the following paper: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/294283807_Into_the_wax_forensic_and_anthropologica l_analysis_of_human_hairs_in_Merovingian_and_Carol ingian_royal_seals_France


Into the wax: forensic and anthropological analysis of human hairs in Merovingian and Carolingian royal seals (France)

Introduction

Hair has always been a symbol of strength and power in many civilizations, especially in the earliest period of the French monarchy with the so called ‘‘hairy kings.’’ Indeed, the presence of human hairs inside official wax seals has been mentioned several times in ancient texts. So far, experts doubted the real presence of hair in these seals, and thought it was glands or fluids related to aging and/or sweating.

The purpose of these forensic observations and additional biomedical examinations is to determine the nature (human or animal?) and anatomical characteristics of hairs observed within a sample of Merovingian and Carolingian seals preserved in the French National Archives (Paris). According to our analyses, it is possible to prove that the elements existing inside six of the eleven studied seals are human hairs, presumably belonging to the sovereigns themselves: Childebert the Third, Chilperic the Second, Pippin the Short, Charlemagne, Carloman, and Pippin of Aquitaine. Other elements, such as animal hairs, are only present in fake or restored seals.

in the story from the Franch website, there is a phrase: "Celui-ci a confirmé l’origine organique et précisé que les cheveux avaient été arrachés, et non coupés, comme le prouve la présence de bulbes. Reste à confirmer, par des tests ADN, qu’ils appartiennent à une seule et même personne et s’ils sont bien de provenance royale… Autant d’analyses à effectuer. "?

Google Translate gave me: "This confirmed the organic origin and specified that the hair had been torn, not cut, as demonstrated by the presence of bulbs. To be confirmed by DNA tests, they belong to a single person and if they are of royal provenance ... All analyzes to be performed."

So, if I am not mistaken, potentially we can have aDNA from Frankish kings. That would be great!

Kale
02-29-2016, 08:46 PM
So, if I am not mistaken, potentially we can have aDNA from Frankish kings. That would be great!

During my genealogical research I found a line that led back to the Frankish kings...1 supposed direct modern descendent was R1b-U152. Obviously going that far back the record is likely to be incorrect, but it would be interesting to see if it turned out to be right.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-29-2016, 09:17 PM
It's unlikely to see aDNA without bones.

rozenfeld
02-29-2016, 10:03 PM
It's unlikely to see aDNA without bones.

Well, the very first ancient human(Homo Sapiens) full genome was sequenced from hair sample, the famous Saqqaq man: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v463/n7282/full/nature08835.html

And the very first Australian Aboriginal genome was also sequenced from the hair sample.

Tomenable
03-02-2016, 02:05 AM
Csaba Barnabas Horvath, "R1a subclades and Bronze Age Migrations on the Eurasian Steppes":

http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/viewFile/6837/6563

When discussing the oldest known samples, the author didn't mention Khvalynsk R1a from Mathieson:


- 10433 / SVP46 (grave 1)

Male (confirmed genetically), age 30-35, positioned on his back with raised knees, with a
copper ring and a copper bead. His R1a1 haplotype shows that this haplotype was present in
the region, although it is not represented later in high-status Yamnaya graves. His U5a1i
MtDNA haplotype is part of a U5a1 group well documented in the Samara series.

I guess it wasn't yet available when he was writing this paper, because missing it would be unlikely.

Hando
03-02-2016, 02:40 AM
Csaba Barnabas Horvath, "R1a subclades and Bronze Age Migrations on the Eurasian Steppes":

http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/viewFile/6837/6563

When discussing the oldest known samples, the author didn't mention Khvalynsk R1a from Mathieson:



I guess it wasn't yet available when he was writing this paper, because missing it would be unlikely.
Is this paper suggesting that LBK and Cucuteni were ancestral to Bronze Age Yamna/Afansievo and Indo European? I thought LBK and Cucuteni were EEF derived, while Yamna and Afansievo were mostly a mix of EHG and ANE from Siberia with some EEF.

Tomenable
03-02-2016, 03:16 AM
I'm not sure Hando because I've just skipped through it, I will read all of it tomorrow.

But as for Yamna - they didn't have EEF, they had CHG admixture, which is a distinct thing.

CHG were only distantly related to EEF - they separated from each other 25,000 years ago:

http://m.phys.org/news/2015-11-fourth-strand-european-ancestry-hunter-gatherers.html

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151116/ncomms9912/full/ncomms9912.html


The Caucasus hunter-gatherer genome showed a continued mixture with the ancestors of the early farmers in the Levant area, which Manica says makes sense given the relative proximity. This ends, however, around 25,000 years ago - just before the time of the last glacial maximum, or peak Ice Age.

At this point, Caucasus hunter-gatherer populations shrink as the genes homogenise, a sign of breeding between those with increasingly similar DNA. This doesn't change for thousands of years as these populations remain in apparent isolation in the shelter of the mountains - possibly cut off from other major ancestral populations for as long as 15,000 years - until migrations began again as the Glacial Maximum recedes, and the Yamnaya culture ultimately emerges.

I suppose that CHG could survive the LGM in Crimea, because Caucasus was depopulated during the LGM:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6570-Who-lived-during-the-LGM-in-Crimean-Refugium&p=143361&viewfull=1#post143361

Apart from Crimea, another likely place where they could be living during the LGM, is - IMO - Northern Iran.