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Morges
03-10-2015, 11:41 AM
Which subclades of R1a are present in Italy?It's an ancient connection the diffusion in Italy or for some historical migrations?

Artmar
03-10-2015, 12:21 PM
Mostly R1a-Z280 and Z93 with minority of "Old European" M417- clades and M458 popping up sometimes in the North.

In Italian context, I think that R1a-Z93 is associated with various movements during antiquity (I would rather exclude frequently brought up "Jews" and "Arabs" in most cases, since their R1a subbranches are different).
Z280 is, IMHO, both (Balkan)Slavic and Gothic, Vandallic(?). M417- clades were brought by various people in uncertain period of time.

Morges
03-10-2015, 08:09 PM
Thanks i also founded some historical documents where talk about some Slavs in Italy during the Middle Ages.

Molise
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molise_Croats

Friuli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavia_Friulana

Calabria
http://www.academia.edu/6488810/Gli_Slavi_nella_Calabria_bizantina

Sicily
http://www.europaorientalis.it/uploads/files/1983/1983.1.pdf

Artmar
04-05-2015, 02:43 PM
Interesting materials.

By the way, thanks to the courtesy of Richard Rocca and administry of Sicily Project, several Italian R1a haplotypes have joined R1a Project.

I has helped a bit with understanding a structure of Italian R1a, at least this commercially tested by FTDNA and having at least 37 markers.

New samples:
1x R1a* (M420!), don't know from where
2x Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029, one with Germanic surname
1x Z282>Z280>Z92>Z685>YP270>CTS4648 from Ischia
1x Z282>Z280>Z92-y Probably clade Z92 from Calabria
1x Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP234>YP295>L366 from Rovigno
Unknown M417+ [L664- M458-, Z284- predicted] from Trapani, Sicily
Unknown M417+ [L664- Z284- predicted] from Cervicati, Calabria
Unknown R1a from Monterodurni, Molise
2 related unknown R1a from Sicily
Unknown R1a from Palermo

Unknown haplotypes can belong to the several subclades, consisting various Z280, Z282, Z93 subclades, probably not discovered so far or a rare subset of those existing.

Also invited Tuscan from Marciano della Chiana has joined a project and he has quickly ordered a Big Y, he currently belongs to an unknown M417+ line.

Rick
04-05-2015, 02:57 PM
Several potential sources have been mentioned. Should probably consider Greek colonists, too. Greece is above 10% if memory serves.

Jean M
04-05-2015, 03:01 PM
Several potential sources have been mentioned. Should probably consider Greek colonists, too. Greece is above 10% if memory serves.

But isn't that mainly Slavic? If so it won't have been in Greece at the time of the colonisation of southern Italy.

Artmar
04-05-2015, 03:05 PM
But isn't that mainly Slavic? If so it won't have been in Greece at the time of the colonisation of southern Italy.
I think that some Z93 haplotypes may be Greek-introduced but rest (Z280, M458) is mostly Slavic, Arboreshe or Germanic.

newtoboard
04-05-2015, 03:10 PM
I think that some Z93 haplotypes may be Greek-introduced but rest (Z280, M458) is mostly Slavic, Arboreshe or Germanic.

But how did Z93 get to Greece? It is absent in most of the Balkans and then has a local peak in Greece?

Rick
04-05-2015, 03:35 PM
But isn't that mainly Slavic? If so it won't have been in Greece at the time of the colonisation of southern Italy.

whether large or small there certainly was a Slavic contribution in Greece. I think much of the Greek R1a predates Slavic incursions, but this I've only surmised.

newtoboard
04-05-2015, 03:39 PM
whether large or small there certainly was a Slavic contribution in Greece. I think much of the Greek R1a predates Slavic incursions, but this I've only surmised.

Well we can rule out anything downstream of Z283 being there prior to Slavic incursions (or less likely Germanic). So that leaves Z93. Which could have come to Greece even after Slavs imo.

Artmar
04-05-2015, 03:58 PM
But how did Z93 get to Greece? It is absent in most of the Balkans and then has a local peak in Greece?
Without aDNA we can't be sure of any scenario but since all M458 and almost all(all?) of Z280 can't be Greek (unfortunately Greeks are undertested at FTDNA), then Z93 remains.
It could've wandered with proto-Greeks coming from the North or be from several people that Greeks assimilated during antiquity (including Scythians, Persians and other Iranic speaking people etc.).

vettor
04-05-2015, 05:16 PM
Unsure if any in this paper below are R1a, but they are different genetically.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v21/n6/full/ejhg2012229a.html

Agamemnon
04-06-2015, 01:36 AM
Without aDNA we can't be sure of any scenario but since all M458 and almost all(all?) of Z280 can't be Greek (unfortunately Greeks are undertested at FTDNA), then Z93 remains.
It could've wandered with proto-Greeks coming from the North or be from several people that Greeks assimilated during antiquity (including Scythians, Persians and other Iranic speaking people etc.).

This is possible since the Gręco-Aryan node's validity seems quite sound, Z93 is a strong contender in this case.

newtoboard
04-06-2015, 10:57 PM
This is possible since the Gręco-Aryan node's validity seems quite sound, Z93 is a strong contender in this case.

Yea but there is so little Z93 (~5% in both) among Greeks and Armenians and both regions have seen Iranian influence especially Armenia. Also R1b doesn't really reach even that 5% in many Indo-Iranian groups. Where would be place this node of IE? The favored origin for Z93+ for most seems to be the forest steppe and I don't think the contacts between the forest steppe and steppe were all that intensive that one node of IE existed across the boundary.

newtoboard
04-06-2015, 10:58 PM
If the Z93 found among Greeks and Armenians is Z93(xZ94) that would be interesting and support the proto Greek theory and Z93 as a minor component among the Proto Greeks but I wouldn't count on it.

Agamemnon
04-06-2015, 11:35 PM
Yea but there is so little Z93 (~5% in both) among Greeks and Armenians and both regions have seen Iranian influence especially Armenia. Also R1b doesn't really reach even that 5% in many Indo-Iranian groups. Where would be place this node of IE? The favored origin for Z93+ for most seems to be the forest steppe and I don't think the contacts between the forest steppe and steppe were all that intensive that one node of IE existed across the boundary.

The Graeco-Armeno-Aryan dialect was, in all likeliness, spoken on the forest steppe. I agree that we shouldn't expect a 1:1 correlation in this case, and that Z93 by itself cannot explain the emergence, breakup and subsequent dissemination of this node's descendants. Still, Z93 in Proto-Greek speakers doesn't sound that far-fetched really, of course I suspect that the groups which would later lead to the formation of Proto-Greek and Proto-Armenian speaking communities mainly carried R1b-Z2103.

newtoboard
04-06-2015, 11:41 PM
The Graeco-Armeno-Aryan dialect was, in all likeliness, spoken on the forest steppe. I agree that we shouldn't expect a 1:1 correlation in this case, and that Z93 by itself cannot explain the emergence, breakup and subsequent dissemination of this node's descendants. Still, Z93 in Proto-Greek speakers doesn't sound that far-fetched really, of course I suspect that the groups which would later lead to the formation of Proto-Greek and Proto-Armenian speaking communities mainly carried R1b-Z2103.

Could you post a link to where this is stated? Quite interesting if true. The most common theory for Greco-Armeno-Daco-Thracian-Aryan I have read of is in the Late Yamnaya-Catacomb-Poltavka chain of cultures. The forest steppe cultures post Yamnaya seem to correspond better to Slavic and Baltic.

Agamemnon
04-06-2015, 11:57 PM
Could you post a link to where this is stated? Quite interesting if true. The most common theory for Greco-Armeno-Daco-Thracian-Aryan I have read of is in the Late Yamnaya-Catacomb-Poltavka chain of cultures. The forest steppe cultures post Yamnaya seem to correspond better to Slavic and Baltic.

Again, this is not my field of expertise, but from what I've read the Graeco-Armeno-Aryan node (I exclude Dacian and Thracian, for which there is very scarce documentation given the marginal status of these languages, little is known about them and internal classification is still hotly debated) represents one of the latest phases of Indo-European unity (if not the latest). If my memory isn't playing tricks with me, Mallory in his "Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture" stated that the Late PIE dialect which led to the Gręco-Armeno-Aryan node was spoken on the forest steppe, I'll look this up when I have time.

newtoboard
04-07-2015, 12:16 AM
Again, this is not my field of expertise, but from what I've read the Graeco-Armeno-Aryan node (I exclude Dacian and Thracian, for which there is very scarce documentation given the marginal status of these languages, little is known about them and internal classification is still hotly debated) represents one of the latest phases of Indo-European unity (if not the latest). If my memory isn't playing tricks with me, Mallory in his "Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture" stated that the Late PIE dialect which led to the Gręco-Armeno-Aryan node was spoken on the forest steppe, I'll look this up when I have time.

Well I remember Mallory's entry on Abashevo stating the linguistic identity of this particular forest steppe culture being unknown. And I can't see anything which would disassociate Slavic and Baltic from the Middle Dnieper-Fataynovo-Balanovo horizon. Greco-Aryan in the forest steppe would suggest the majority of IE branches developed within Corded Ware. That seems strange.

Agamemnon
04-07-2015, 12:41 AM
Well I remember Mallory's entry on Abashevo stating the linguistic identity of this particular forest steppe culture being unknown. And I can't see anything which would disassociate Slavic and Baltic from the Middle Dnieper-Fataynovo-Balanovo horizon. Greco-Aryan in the forest steppe would suggest the majority of IE branches developed within Corded Ware. That seems strange.

Obviously, the Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture is a valuable candidate for Balto-Slavic... But the forest steppe still makes sense as a gravity center for most of the Late PIE dialects, for instance Gimbutas' "third wave" implies a similar process.

newtoboard
04-07-2015, 12:51 AM
Obviously, the Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture is a valuable candidate for Balto-Slavic... But the forest steppe still makes sense as a gravity center for most of the Late PIE dialects, for instance Gimbutas' "third wave" implies a similar process.

So what other forest steppe culture is left? Doesn't Mallory view the presence of Iranian dialects in the forest steppe as a Southern intrusion?

What other place could Greco-Armeno-Aryan be besides the Late-Yamnaya-Catacomb-Poltavka chain if the more northern chain is Baltic and Slavic + Abashevo which looks just like Fataynovo-Balanovo with a Poltavka-Catacomb steppe element?

http://bsecher.pagesperso-orange.fr/genetique/ForestSteppeCultures.jpg

Agamemnon
04-07-2015, 01:16 AM
So what other forest steppe culture is left? Doesn't Mallory view the presence of Iranian dialects in the forest steppe as a Southern intrusion?

What other place could Greco-Armeno-Aryan be besides the Late-Yamnaya-Catacomb-Poltavka chain if the more northern chain is Baltic and Slavic + Abashevo which looks just like Fataynovo-Balanovo with a Poltavka-Catacomb steppe element?

http://bsecher.pagesperso-orange.fr/genetique/ForestSteppeCultures.jpg

The Late PIE dialect which led to the Graeco-Armeno-Aryan node presumably had to be spoken somewhere close to Abashevo, for instance this is what Mallory states in his entry on the Abashevo culture:

"Settlements have left remains indicative of a mixed
agricultural economy. Metal sickles and stone grinders suggest
agriculture while the animal remains are almost exclusively
those of domestic animals. Cattle predominate, then sheep/
goat, while pig and horse are found in smaller amounts.
Cheek-pieces, typical of neighboring steppe cultures (and also
of the Mycenaeans), reveal the use of the horse and' (probably)
chariot."

But this is all archeology to me, the only thing I can be sure of at this point is that the PIE urheimat was to be found on Pontic-Caspian steppe and that it inscribes itself within a Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic timeframe, the rest is an educated guess at best (while I'd surmise that several nodes and clades are bound to be valid, more work needs to be done in order to resolve some of the finer and more controversial issues, such as the position of scantly attested languages).

parasar
04-07-2015, 01:44 AM
Yea but there is so little Z93 (~5% in both) among Greeks and Armenians and both regions have seen Iranian influence especially Armenia. Also R1b doesn't really reach even that 5% in many Indo-Iranian groups. Where would be place this node of IE? The favored origin for Z93+ for most seems to be the forest steppe and I don't think the contacts between the forest steppe and steppe were all that intensive that one node of IE existed across the boundary.

Even that looks high going by Underhill's data-set.
Greece 1/171
Armenians 8/427
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/images/ejhg201450f3.jpg

newtoboard
04-07-2015, 11:52 PM
The Late PIE dialect which led to the Graeco-Armeno-Aryan node presumably had to be spoken somewhere close to Abashevo, for instance this is what Mallory states in his entry on the Abashevo culture:

"Settlements have left remains indicative of a mixed
agricultural economy. Metal sickles and stone grinders suggest
agriculture while the animal remains are almost exclusively
those of domestic animals. Cattle predominate, then sheep/
goat, while pig and horse are found in smaller amounts.
Cheek-pieces, typical of neighboring steppe cultures (and also
of the Mycenaeans), reveal the use of the horse and' (probably)
chariot."

But this is all archeology to me, the only thing I can be sure of at this point is that the PIE urheimat was to be found on Pontic-Caspian steppe and that it inscribes itself within a Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic timeframe, the rest is an educated guess at best (while I'd surmise that several nodes and clades are bound to be valid, more work needs to be done in order to resolve some of the finer and more controversial issues, such as the position of scantly attested languages).

Greco-Aryan was also mentioned in the entry for Catacomb wasn't it? That sounds more likely imo.

felipesc25
06-09-2018, 10:39 PM
If its could help, i m R1a and my direct paternal ancestor came from Schio, Vicenza in Veneto(Italy), i m R1a>>Z280>>Y2613>>YP3929, a typical Balkanic Subclade.Might have some relation with Schiavone Venetians(venetians with croatian background) or even with Slovenes.