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rms2
03-11-2015, 11:55 PM
Hey! FTDNA finally approved my request to create a red hair variants project.

I have not really totally finished setting it up, but here's the link:

Red Hair Variants (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/RedHairVariants/default.aspx)

First off, do not join unless you are a carrier of at least one of the red hair variants on the MC1R (Melanocortin 1 Receptor) gene. Membership is open, but I will not place you in a category until you send me an email telling me which variant you carry and how you know about it (autosomal test results - be specific).

In order to find out whether or not you are a carrier of one of the red hair variants, you must download your Family Finder raw data to your computer using a program like 7Zip, which is available online for free. Open your raw data using the program of your choice (like 7Zip). Click on the "Find & Select" function in the upper right of the spreadsheet and then on "find". Type the RefSNP number from the table on the project's background page in the box that appears and click on "FIND NEXT". The RefSNP should appear inside a bold box. Look at column D and determine if you have at least one risk allele (for example, a T at rs1805008). If you do, you are a carrier and eligible to join the Red Hair Variants Project.

You do not have to have red hair to join this project. If you carry only one risk allele of a red hair variant, you probably do not have red hair, but you are a carrier and can pass the trait on to your children. Red hair is a recessive trait. It generally takes at least two risk alleles for a person to actually have red hair.

If you have 23andMe results or BritainsDNA (IrelandsDNA, etc.) Red Head Test results and are an FTDNA customer, join the project and send me an email explaining how you are a carrier.

lgmayka
03-12-2015, 12:20 AM
You should mention that Family Finder does not test rs1805007 (on R151C (http://www.mrbill.net/dna/results/23andMe/Traits/Hair%20Color%20Report/Hair%20Color%20Report%20-%2023andMe.html)), hence those with that red hair variant cannot join your project.

rms2
03-12-2015, 12:24 AM
You should mention that Family Finder does not test rs1805007, hence those with that red hair variant cannot join your project.

I already have that info on the project's background page. I have two tables there: one of the variants included in Family Finder, and one of some of the common variants that are not included in Family Finder.

I will accept folks with 23andMe or BritainsDNA results, as long as they can tell me which variant they carry and how they know.

Huntergatherer1066
03-12-2015, 01:39 AM
Sounds like an interesting project, when I get some spare time I'll look through my Family Finders and see who is eligible. My father and and several of his siblings are redheads, some of which have done Family Finder and I know they have some of the redhead risk alleles, I can't remember which ones off the top of my head.

Huntergatherer1066
03-12-2015, 02:03 AM
Are you more interested in the geographic distribution of these alleles or in the genotype/phenotype relationship, or perhaps both questions and more?

Krefter
03-12-2015, 02:11 AM
Will you use this project to research the distribution and origin of red hair variants? The pre-historic red hair carriers from Haak 2015 will be an attractive addition to your project(once a paper is published about Haak 2015 phenotype data). If someone makes a reconstruction of Motala 5 maybe you should make him the logo of the project.

http://www.history.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/cranium-during-excavation.jpg

ADW_1981
03-12-2015, 02:18 AM
I already have that info on the project's background page. I have two tables there: one of the variants included in Family Finder, and one of some of the common variants that are not included in Family Finder.

I will accept folks with 23andMe or BritainsDNA results, as long as they can tell me which variant they carry and how they know.

23andMe in both cases.

I manage 2 kits :

161818 has 1 copy rs1805007
N48992 has 1 copy each of rs1805007 and rs1805008

Anabasis
03-12-2015, 11:27 AM
rs1805005 pozitive :)

rms2
03-12-2015, 11:50 AM
Are you more interested in the geographic distribution of these alleles or in the genotype/phenotype relationship, or perhaps both questions and more?

I'm interested in whatever the data will show and in having interesting discussions about their interpretation.

I saw some new members this morning, but, unfortunately, I still have to work for a living, so sorting things out will have to wait until this evening.

rms2
03-12-2015, 07:12 PM
If you join the project, please remember to send me an email telling me which variant(s) you carry and how you know you carry it or them; otherwise, I can't tell.

If you have red hair, you will still need some autosomal test results to know which variant(s) you carry.

Krefter
03-12-2015, 08:40 PM
If you join the project, please remember to send me an email telling me which variant(s) you carry and how you know you carry it or them; otherwise, I can't tell.

If you have red hair, you will still need some autosomal test results to know which variant(s) you carry.

I just thought of something. You can add HGDP and other public genome individuals to your project. That'll give the project a good starting database.

rms2
03-13-2015, 11:02 AM
I just thought of something. You can add HGDP and other public genome individuals to your project. That'll give the project a good starting database.

The only results that will display on the y-dna and mtDNA results pages of FTDNA projects are those of FTDNA customers who are project members. I can add some blurbs about ancient and/or famous results on one of the other pages though, like the "Results" page, which is separate from the y-dna and mtDNA spreadsheets.

rms2
03-13-2015, 11:12 AM
An issue that I am wondering about is based on the way FTDNA projects display y-dna and mtDNA results. Those are the basis of the public web sites of FTDNA projects. I need to display both in order to include both males and females in the Red Hair Variants Project, but I am concerned about the fact that a member, like myself, who acquired just a single variant, obviously only got that variant from one parent; thus, it is not correct to display it for both one's y-dna line and one's mtDNA line. Again, using myself as an example, I have a single copy of Arg160Trp, and I know I got it from my father, because he carries it, and my mother does not. Yet, on the project's mtDNA pages, I am in the Arg160Trp category, where my most distant mtDNA ancestor's name is displayed, even though I know I did not get Arg160Trp from her.

I don't want to make project administration any more complicated and labor-intensive for myself than it has to be, but I am trying to think of an easy way to solve this sort of problem. I may create a category with a title like "RH Variant not passed along the mtDNA line" for the mtDNA page and one with the title "RH Variant not passed along the y-dna line" for the y-dna page, and place members in those categories if they can eliminate one or the other lines: i.e., they know, as I do, they inherited their red hair variant or variants from their father and not their mother or vice versa.

Of course, I do not know from which of my grandparents my father got the Arg160Trp he passed along to me; I just know I got it from him and not my mother.

rms2
03-13-2015, 11:34 AM
Another note: this morning I switched the project from a simple, open, automatic join system to one in which the prospective member has to submit a join request. I did that because too many folks were joining without letting me know what variant they carry and how they know they carry it (i.e., which company they tested with and what the results were). I'm hoping new members will submit that info in the Join Request, so I can put them in one of the categories right away.

seferhabahir
03-13-2015, 01:55 PM
Another note: this morning I switched the project from a simple, open, automatic join system to one in which the prospective member has to submit a join request. I did that because too many folks were joining without letting me know what variant they carry and how they know they carry it (i.e., which company they tested with and what the results were). I'm hoping new members will submit that info in the Join Request, so I can put them in one of the categories right away.

Haven't joined, but decided to look at my values. I have TG at rs1805005 (Val60Leu) so I guess I qualify. My sister has GG at this location and has very dark almost black hair similar to my mother. So I would guess that I inherited the T from my father. I used to have sporadic red hairs in my beard (now sort of almost entirely gray) which may be from this. Hard to say.

rms2
03-13-2015, 11:08 PM
Haven't joined, but decided to look at my values. I have TG at rs1805005 (Val60Leu) so I guess I qualify. My sister has GG at this location and has very dark almost black hair similar to my mother. So I would guess that I inherited the T from my father. I used to have sporadic red hairs in my beard (now sort of almost entirely gray) which may be from this. Hard to say.

Well, I hope you will join.

We seem to be making good progress, and we have folks from all over the place. Red hair variants are pretty widespread, evidently.

MitchellSince1893
03-14-2015, 01:26 AM
I requested to join. Mine is a rawdata transfer to FTDNA from 23andme.

rms2
03-14-2015, 12:10 PM
I requested to join. Mine is a rawdata transfer to FTDNA from 23andme.

Thanks!

FTDNA's project web site displays are based on y-dna strs and/or mtDNA, so you'll need either some y-dna str or mtDNA test results from FTDNA in order to show up on the project's public web site. Even a simple 12-marker y-dna str test will do.

rms2
03-14-2015, 01:22 PM
BTW, I have tried several times to convert the Red Hair Variants Project to the new myGroups format, but it just won't take for some reason.

rms2
03-15-2015, 01:30 AM
Here's some red hair from Wales' rugby victory over Ireland today.

4047

Krefter
05-18-2015, 08:40 PM
Redhead in Iraq.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150518160231-01-ramadi-iraq-0518-exlarge-169.jpg

Pic is from CNN. http://www.cnn.com/. She could pass as being from Europe. So I think the main thing that makes West Asians and Europeans look differnt is skin color.

VinceT
05-18-2015, 11:03 PM
My own rs1805005 = GT. Maternal uncle = GG. Paternal uncle = GT. My father's mother was once a redhead. As a result, I burn more readily than I tan, much like my father.

Edit:

Actually, reading off this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-113714.html), the genotyping for myself, my maternal uncle and my paternal uncle are as follows:

i3002507 - GG, GG, GG
rs2228479 - GG, GG, GG
rs1805006 - CC, CC, CC
rs1805007 - CC, CC, CC
rs1805008 - CC, CC, CC
rs1805005 - GT, GG, GT

We all were dark-haired in our younger days, but like I posted in another thread, my father was once red in his youth before going darker and then quickly losing most of it to MPB.

Edit 2:
Additional from O.P.'s FTDNA project:

rs885479 - GG, GG, GG
rs1110400 - TT, TT, TT
rs11547464 - GG, GG, GG
rs34474212 - TT, TT, TT

As I also have FF data for my father, I see he types as:

rs1805008 16 89986144 CC
rs885479 16 89986154 AG
rs2228479 16 89985940 GG
rs1805006 16 89985918 CC
rs1110400 16 89986130 TT
rs1805005 16 89985844 TG

Cofgene
05-19-2015, 01:49 AM
I just looked and confirmed that my superior auburn hair (way back when) comes from 1 copy of rs1805007

My strawberry blond mother has both 1 copy rs1805007 and rs1805008

glentane
05-19-2015, 10:29 AM
She could pass as being from Europe.
Just not as a woman. She looks like a rough version of Paul Scholes (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=paul+scholes&client=palemoon&rls=Palemoon:en-US&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=_A5bVb-TM4OU7QavuYHoBQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=635).
So I bet there's something else going on in (particularly N) Europe that makes men and women alike much more baby-faced and "soft"-looking. Sort of like the Finns and some Russians/Baltics, and particularly in the Isles. Anyone for substrate? Inbreeding?

Krefter
06-12-2015, 08:41 AM
Srkz(poster at Eurogenes blog) has started to put Allentoft 2015 genomes in commercial DNA format, like he did with Haak 2015 genomes.

Download Allentoft genomes here.

https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dropbox.com%2Fsh%2Fmqp4gxt zpng3kom%2FAAAYJ7dvojikMCF-q75NRi_Ca%3Fdl%3D0&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHYZxn-1QWA8aGDpzHYCum8TvGpXQ

Download Haak genomes here.

https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dropbox.com%2Fsh%2Fcnnmb7c ym9aer09%2FAAB-l36I2WjMXNhZYFe6wN3pa%3Fdl%3D0&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNEVANRtd6zU0Aa9Ce9j9mcK75v4jg

RISE71, 2196-2023 BC, Late Neolithic Denmark had R160W(CT in rs1805008). She was negative for all other red hair variants, but didn't get a call in rs1805009. She's the third Late Neolithic/Bronze age Central-North European found to be a carrier of R160W and ???(derived allele in rs1805007) which are the most popular red hair variants today. It looks like they had roughly the same rate of red hair carriers as Central-North Europeans today.

Supp. Info Table 14 shows the frequencies derived alleles of many SNPs, including many red hair variant's SNPs.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/extref/nature14507-s9.xls

Modern and Pre-Historic Carriers of Red hair.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zPH-vy9kgyQzjyj2k5tLTRi7EyztWGScg05w9QMyBug/edit#gid=0

Only 3% of "baEurope" had a derived allele in rs1805008 and 0% in all other red hair variants(except rs1805005). Maybe RISE71 is the only one.

Krefter
06-17-2015, 08:01 PM
Two more genomes from Allentoft 2015 have R160W(CT in rs1805008).

RISE98(Battle Axe/Corded Ware Sweden, circa 2154 BC) and RISE395(Sintashta Central Asia, circa 1858 BC).

Supp. Info Table 14 says 0% of baAsia has R160W. It says 3% of baEurope has it, but now we know 2 had CT, so the allele frequency of T is at least 4%. I don't know what's up.

Anyways according to this 23andme article (http://blog.23andme.com/health-traits/no-im-not-irish/) R160W is the most popular red hair variant in Central-East Europe and Scandinavia, while R151C(CT in rs1805007) is the most popular red hair variant in the British isles. I think it can confidently be said red hair existed at modern-like frequencies in Late Neolithic/Bronze age Europe, and that R151C and R160W were the main variants like today.

If one looks for a source of Late Neolithic/Bronze age red hair variants in earlier periods with available Ancient DNA data one can't find good candidates. Neolithic Europe has the largest data set and 0 red hair carriers. Yamnaya has one(of the R151C variant), but red hair variants were obviously very rare in Yamnaya(and most likely also his close relatives). Mesolithic Sweden has a bunch but SHG probably didn't contribute much ancestry to anyone around today. SHG's relatives EHG and WHG did, so maybe they also had red hair carriers.

IMO, there's too small of a data set to get an idea where LN/BA Europe got their red hair variants from. Plus, traits often aren't directly passed down. Selection is probably in play when it comes to red hair variants. Plus, I don't think anyone has much data on how red hair variants are distributed in people today.

lgmayka
06-17-2015, 09:47 PM
If one looks for a source of Late Neolithic/Bronze age red hair variants in earlier periods with available Ancient DNA data one can't find good candidates... Yamnaya has one(of the R151C variant), but red hair variants were obviously very rare in Yamnaya(and most likely also his close relatives).
My uncle and I have one R151C allele, and two of my brothers have red hair (thus probably two R151C alleles), so clearly the British Isles got their red hair from rural southeastern Poland. :lol:

Maybe that explains why one cousin gets 14% British Isles on MyOrigins, and another cousin gets 12% Scandinavian--even though all of us are essentially 100% rural southeastern Polish.

Krefter
06-21-2015, 04:25 AM
RISE386(Sintashta culture) was a redhead :) So, maybe some of the Tarim mummies did have Red hair.

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/06/21/phenotype-snps-from-prehistoric-eurasia/

Two Steppe(Afanasievo, Yamnaya) were red hair carriers. They had the most popular modern variants: R151C and R160W. One of Haak Yamnaya guys had R151C. This strengthens my veiw that red hair in Europe comes from the Steppe. We're seeing the same red hair variants in Late Neolithic Europe, Yamnaya/Afanasievo, and Sintashta.

Humanist
06-21-2015, 04:51 AM
Redhead in Iraq.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150518160231-01-ramadi-iraq-0518-exlarge-169.jpg

Pic is from CNN. http://www.cnn.com/. She could pass as being from Europe. So I think the main thing that makes West Asians and Europeans look differnt is skin color.

Of relevance to your post, above. The fella below is an Assyrian from Iraq:


Red hair does exist in our community, but from what I can tell it is nearly exclusive to members of the Syriac Orthodox Church. However, there are some members of the Church of the East whose hair color fall within the red spectrum, such as the fellow below:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/UptownFilmFestival-AP1.jpg

Krefter
06-21-2015, 07:23 PM
More and more Sintashta/Andronovo are coming out as carriers of Red Hair. Two are double carriers, so there's a 90%+ chance they had Red Hair. The rumors I've read on the internet that historical IEs of Central Asia were known for Red Hair by Ancient writers seems like it could be factual.

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/06/21/phenotype-snps-from-prehistoric-eurasia/

Anabasis
06-21-2015, 07:50 PM
More and more Sintashta/Andronovo are coming out as carriers of Red Hair. Two are double carriers, so there's a 90%+ chance they had Red Hair. The rumors I've read on the internet that historical IEs of Central Asia were known for Red Hair by Ancient writers seems like it could be factual.

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/06/21/phenotype-snps-from-prehistoric-eurasia/

I have Val60Leu (rs1805005 T). Does any ancient sample have it?

Krefter
06-21-2015, 11:26 PM
I have Val60Leu (rs1805005 T). Does any ancient sample have it?

Yes. It's one of the more popular variants. A few from Neolithic Spain, Central Europe, and Bell Beaker have it.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xe9sgt0PSt6cUQ3cYp14foBoaVGsOKZBmmHJoKz0HB0/edit#gid=831558307

Krefter
06-22-2015, 12:41 AM
I have Val60Leu (rs1805005 T). Does any ancient sample have it?

Maybe you Join the FTDNA Red Hair varianst Project.
Maybe this all disappears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vvFglg02jE

Krefter
06-30-2015, 12:32 AM
Yesterday I searched for academic studies about SNPs associated with Red Hair online to confirm that "Red Hair Variants" actually(Especially in rs1805007, rs1805008, rs1805009), have something to do with Red Hair. It looks like they do. I'm pretty confident Pre-Historic people being carriers of common modern Red hair-variants isn't a coincidence. It looks like Red Hair existed at modern-like frequencies(1-10%) before Europeans became uniformly Light skinned. So, most Mesolithic Scandinavians had Brown skin and 1/10 were RedHeads with very Light skin.

I was only able to find data from Ireland, Denmark, and Britain. Only the study with Irish data tried to tackle the mystery of non-Red head hair and Red facial hair.

The Big 4(or 5): All studies found that of MCR1 variants R151C(T in rs1805007), R160W(T in rs1805008), and D294H(A in rs1805009) can explain most Red Hair. The study on Danish also ranked D84C(T in rs1805006) as being very correlated with Red Hair.

All samples from all studies I've read so far with a derived allele in 2/4 of those SNPs had Red Hair, and all with two derived alleles in 1/4 of those SNPs had Red Hair. 91.5% of RedHeads(78 of 85) have at least one of those four variants. Many people with one of those variants don't have Red Hair. Of 10 Irish males with non-Red head hair and Red Facial hair, 3(30%) had one of the 3 big variants(R151C, R160W, D294H).

There are a bunch of Polish Redheads in this Hirisplex study (http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fsigenetics.com%2Farticle%2 FS1872-4973(12)00181-0%2Ffulltext%23tbl0005&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNErw5Z6LKfN4obPfYk_MWk3tS4znA). Of the Total RedHeads(From Ireland and Poland) 23/25 were predicted to have red hair. All were probably double carriers of the big 4, or more minor Red hair variants. 24/25 had one of the big 4 Red hair variants. One didn't have any variants. A Small number of non-Red Haired people in that study appear to have been double-carriers of a major Red Hair variant(big 4) and a minor one. They might have been double carriers of two of the Big 4. So, Red hair in Poland is probably caused by the same variants as Red Hair in Ireland and Denmark.

Krefter
06-30-2015, 12:38 AM
Look how popular Red Hair Variants are in some South/Central Asians. I've read some places Red Hair isn't unheard of in some ethnic groups there. Sintashta/Andronovo could be a source because they had a high frequency. I tend to think it is from distantly shared Western Eurasian ancestry with the Motala_HGs.

http://www.fsigenetics.com/cms/attachment/2022359633/2042116561/mmc3_lrg.jpg

http://www.fsigenetics.com/cms/attachment/2022359633/2042116560/mmc4_lrg.jpg

Krefter
07-01-2015, 10:22 PM
I found a great tool for testing the phenotype effect of SNPs: openSNP (https://opensnp.org/genotypes).
Members put their raw DNA data online and Phenotype traits.

It looks like over 1,000 people put their files on that website. At least several 100 listed phenotype traits.

So far almost 100% of members I've read from openSNP who listed themselves as Blond in childhood and or adulthood have a red hair variant or derived allele in rs1805005, an most who listed themselves as Brown or Brown-Black don't.

*An Algerian had red hair variant D294H(C in rs1805009). There's a pretty high frequency of Red Hair variants in ethnic groups in South/Central Asia and also D294H(C in rs1805009) was found in Uyghurs. I have only been able to find studies on Red Hair in SouthEast Poland, Ireland, Britain, Denmark, Australia, and European Americans and all found the same variants were the cause of most Red hair. It looks like the same variants are the cause of Red Hair in Central Asia, and probably the Middle East, put there's no confirmation.

Krefter
07-02-2015, 06:49 AM
openSNP allows members to download every file of people who claim to have a certain phenotype trait. So, I downloaded every file of people who claimed to have Red hair. I've gotten calls in Hirisplex SNPs for 28 of the individuals who claim to be Red haired. There are many more.

This is what has stuck out to me so far:

>15/28(53.6%) have CT or TT in rs12203592 with a 28.5% derived allele T frequency. The T allele frequency is usually under 10% in Europe, but in Ireland is above 30%. One indvidual had TT in rs12203592 and no red hair variant. I wonder if rs12203592 is giving that person red hair.

>Only 16/28(57.14%) samples had a Red Hair variant not counting derived allele rs1805005 and rs11547464, and 71.4%(20/28) when counting those two. Two were non-West Eurasian and probably not redheads, and so I deleted them. Obviously Some people listed themselves as redheads when they weren't. 6/28 though had two derived Red Hair alleles, and so quite a few clearly told the truth. Most of the likely redheads only had 1 Red Hair variant/allele which is consistent with studies I've read.

>Of samples with a single Red hair variant/allele 7/11 were Brown/Dark eyed. All had AG in rs12913832 and GG in rs16891982, suggesting they were European. If North European that's above the Brown eye percentage of North Europe which is 30-40%. But if I combine samples with 2 Red hair variants/alleles 9/17 have Brown eyes, which is an insignificant difference from the North European average.

>3 samples had a derived allele in rs1805005 and 1 sample in rs11547464, but not in any other SNPs associated with red hair. 2/3 with a derived allele in rs1805005 had AA in rs12913832 which is below 5% in North Europe. 1/1 with a derived allele in rs11547464 had Brown eyes(AG not AA). I think some of the samples lacking one of the major red hair variants but with a derived allele in rs1805005 and rs11547464 could be redheads, and the two with AA in rs12913832 are probably West Eurasian(xNorth Europe).

My Questions might be answered:

>I'm going to ask Genome Bloggers to analysis some of the individuals to find out where they come from(Middle East, Europe, etc.) and email to ask individuals who I doubt are redheads if they're redheads. I'm especially interested if the individuals with derived alleles in rs1805005, rs11547464, and rs12203592, and no mega red hair variants are redheads.

>The two guys with derived alleles in rs1805005 and AA in rs12913832, could very well be redheads and West Eurasian(xNorth European). I haven't read any studies on red hair outside of North Europe.

>I suspect rs12203592, rs1805005, and rs885479 in some cases help produce red hair.

Krefter
07-02-2015, 11:32 PM
Okay this is getting crazy: I've gone through 34 files(Just over half way done) of openSNP samples who claim to have blond hair and 70%(24/34) have a red hair variant. 5/32 have two red hair variants. Of the few studies I've read, only redheads have two variants.

Krefter
07-04-2015, 03:23 AM
I think derived allele in MC1R SNP rs3212379 might be another red hair variant. It is very very very very very rare. In HGDP pops it only exists in Europeans. Around 1% of Europeans have CT in this SNP, that's how rare it is. Of the openSNP people, 2/30(inclu. myself) who claim to be redheads have CT, while out of over 100 who claim to have another hair color 0 have it.

I have CT in this SNP and my dad who has Brown hair has CC. So, I must have gotten CT from my mom, who has red hair. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Krefter
07-04-2015, 06:00 AM
I feel like an idiot. Can a moderator delete Post #37.

There were only 9 people who described themselves as solely red. 8/9 had a derived allele in rs1805007, rs1805008, or rs1805009. 5/9 had two derived alleles. So, the random samples from openSNP are consistent with academic studies.

Krefter
07-07-2015, 12:59 AM
The highest frequency of R151C(T rs1805007) is in Samartians. The T allele has a frequency of 20.5% out of 78 samples. Most certainly have CT. So, nearly 40% of those 78 probably have R151C. Only Poles show frequency for R160W, and the other variants are so rare pretty much no one had them. The association between R151C and R160W and Red hair has been proven, so there must be some Red hair among the Samartians. They're some of the most ENF of West Asians, with no signs of recent European admixture.

http://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/SiteTable1A_working.asp?siteuid=SI663691F

lgmayka
07-07-2015, 03:11 AM
Only Poles show frequency for R160W, and the other variants are so rare pretty much no one had them.
http://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/SiteTable1A_working.asp?siteuid=SI663691F
The table to which you linked is specifically for polymorphism rs1805007, a.k.a. R151C (http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1805007).

After Samaritans, the group in the table with the highest red-hair allele percentage (11.7%) is labeled as European Americans; they are more specifically from Utah. Next come Poles with 11.0%, but these are more specifically from southern Poland (http://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/sampleDescrip.asp?sampleID=%273516%27)). To be fair, they may or may not be fully representative even of that region, because they were "patients attending dermatological consulations at the Department of Dermatology of the Jagiellonian University Hospital ." One could argue that patients with skin problems are more likely to be red-headed.

On the other hand, one could also argue that samples taken at the most prestigious university in Poland may not fully reflect residents of poorer, rural areas, who are [I]more likely to retain distinctive regional alleles (i.e., to have avoided "homogenization").

My own family background is entirely rural southern Polish, and I have an R151C red hair allele (according to 23andMe). Two of my brothers have red hair.

Krefter
07-08-2015, 12:16 AM
The table to which you linked is specifically for polymorphism rs1805007, a.k.a. R151C (http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1805007).

After Samaritans, the group in the table with the highest red-hair allele percentage (11.7%) is labeled as European Americans; they are more specifically from Utah. Next come Poles with 11.0%, but these are more specifically from southern Poland (http://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/sampleDescrip.asp?sampleID=%273516%27)). To be fair, they may or may not be fully representative even of that region, because they were "patients attending dermatological consulations at the Department of Dermatology of the Jagiellonian University Hospital ." One could argue that patients with skin problems are more likely to be red-headed.

On the other hand, one could also argue that samples taken at the most prestigious university in Poland may not fully reflect residents of poorer, rural areas, who are [I]more likely to retain distinctive regional alleles (i.e., to have avoided "homogenization").

My own family background is entirely rural southern Polish, and I have an R151C red hair allele (according to 23andMe). Two of my brothers have red hair.

Polish and Slovenes are also showing a high frequency of R160W. See here (http://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/SiteTable1A_working.asp?siteuid=SI663693H). It's probably just random this happened. I bet all the samples are Polish, maybe not from SouthEast Poland. R160W is most popular around the Baltic according to this 23andme article (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.23andme.com%2Fhealth-traits%2Fno-im-not-irish%2F&ei=QWycVYrrCYimgwTznYG4Dg&usg=AFQjCNEWv9Dad1ZfkqGvyEumPOoti2uiMA&sig2=hv2d2jqt5OVPSO-xzbsRxg&bvm=bv.96952980,d.eXY).

I finally found a source which found an R variant in Sardinians. D294H(rs1805009 C).

Here's a red haired Sardinian. I also read an old Italian study which found under 1% of 1,000s of Sardinians had red hair. This could be from their small amount of non-EEF ancestry or their EEF ancestry. So far it seems Neolithic farmers have little to do with Red hair.

http://www.lorenzobellu.com/sito/gallerie/eventi/2010%20-%20Sassari,%20Cavalcata%20Sarda/slides/_PLB5157.jpg

Krefter
07-08-2015, 12:38 AM
Here's where the SouthEast Polish samples come from. Over 20% have red hair.


Notably, the frequency of red hair color in our studypopulation is higher than expected in the general Polish444 Hum Genet (2011) 129:443–454123population because of an enrichment of red hair coloredindividuals in the sampling process

http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/263/art%253A10.1007%252Fs00439-010-0939-8.pdf?originUrl=http%3A%2F%2Flink.springer.com%2Fa rticle%2F10.1007%2Fs00439-010-0939-8&token2=exp=1436316902~acl=%2Fstatic%2Fpdf%2F263%2F art%25253A10.1007%25252Fs00439-010-0939-8.pdf%3ForiginUrl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Flink.spring er.com%252Farticle%252F10.1007%252Fs00439-010-0939-8*~hmac=d7dd02f9c5cbcdb4d8ac1ddfd25c4eb40b63e30375 1f381800fb802461325c47

Krefter
07-09-2015, 12:03 PM
A guy from Algeria who says several people on his father's side have Red hair, has Red hair variant D294H(rs1805009 C). Of HGDP Moroccans none have R160W or R151C, but they do have D294H. Also, of the sample sets of Sardinians tested for Red hair variants only D294H has popped up. Could D294H be the variant of Ancient Near Easterns, and R160W+R151C of ANE-rich West Eurasians, like SHG and Yamnaya? There's way too small of a sample set to say.
'
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/44468-Where-is-Red-Hair-in-Asia-from?p=1199528&viewfull=1#post1199528

A Pashuten Redhead from this forum had variant I155T(rs111400 C). So as of far 2/2 non-European Red haired or in family with Red haired people have a variant.

Both have very rare variants. Although the very popular R160W and R151C do exist in the West Asia.

Krefter
07-09-2015, 11:39 PM
Evidence Red hair in Spain is of the same source as Red hair in Ireland, Britain, Poland, Denmark.

http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/28/8/1659.full


Among these 10 red-haired cases, 8 carried at least two functional MC1R variants, the 9th carried D294H and the novel Spanish variant S41F and the 10th did not carry any variants.

EDIT: 9/10 of Spanish Redheads had the same "R" variants(R151C, R160W, D294E, D84E, R142H, I155T) as North European Redheads. 8/10 had two R variants. One didn't have any MC1R variants. The entire MC1R gene was tested, so MC1R isn't the only source of Red hair. The same has been found in non-Spanish Redheads.

From studies I've read 50% of NorthWest Europeans are carriers of Red hair and around 10% of Spanish are. Variant percentages in Greece and Italy are just as low or lower as in Spain. I don't know about NorthEast Europe, the Balkans, and Middle East yet.

D294E(rs1805009 C), I155T(rs111400 T), and R151C(rs1805007 T) were the most popular Red hair variants in Spain, not just in Redheads. R142H(G in rs11547464) was also fairly popular(compared to other R variants). D294E, R142H, and I155T are very rare in other parts of Europe from what I've read.

In Europe usually R160W and R151C are take up almost all Red variants. The same is true for Pre-Historic Europeans . So, the results for Spain are interesting, especially considering D294H and R142H are the only variants I've found exist in Sardinia and Neolithic Europe, and that D294H was found in a single Algerian with Red haired relatives. Although many more samples are needed to get an idea how each variant is distributed.

BTW, I've read three studies about melanoma in Italy, Greece, France, and Spain. All found strong correlation with Red hair variants and melanoma, and also with Pale skin and Light hair(didn't specify if it was Red or not).

Krefter
07-10-2015, 06:31 AM
http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nature.com%2Fjid%2Fjournal% 2Fv126%2Fn8%2Fabs%2F5700292a.html&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNGuBFbmPZyogkpaHS5eMvvui94-Yg

8 Greek Redheads: 5/8 had an R allele or two. 3/8 had no mutation in MC1R(entire region was tested). The variants found in Greek Redheads: R151C, R160W, V60L, or R142H

The 3/8 non-MC1R redheads is above average, but it's a small sample set. The fact 5/8 had a R variant while just over 10% of non-Red haired Greeks do, is enough to say Greek Red hair is largely of the same Ancestral source as other European Red hair(Spain, Ireland, Britain, Denmark, Poland, and definitely more). Greece is the farthest SouthEast that the Red hair variants have been tested for their accuracy.

Krefter
07-11-2015, 04:22 AM
Around 30% of "Control"(non-Melanoma patiants) Germans, 18% of "Control" Spanish, and 14% of Sardinian "Control" are carriers of Red hair.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/ijc.24548/asset/image_t/tfig001.gif?v=1&t=ibyjakqu&7d2cfde4

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2407/9/352/table/T

Although, D294H(rs1805009 C) and l155T(rs111400 C) are most popular in Spanish in Sardinians. This is consistent with the other study on Spanish Melanoma and non-Melanoma samples I read. In Poland and NorthWest Europe(Germany, Ireland, Britian, Denmark) the most popular Red hair variants are R160W and R151C, while in Spain and Sardinia R151C, D294H, and l155T are most popular.

Krefter
07-12-2015, 07:58 AM
I Found The Confirmation I was Looking for: Over 80% of Redheads from Greece-Italy-Spain-Ireland-Britain-Scandinavia-Poland had a Red hair variant. Most had two. These alleles are the source of most Red hair in at least Europe. 2/2 Middle Easters(Algeria, Afghan) with Red hair or close relative with Red hair have a variant.

I have searched very hard for studies online with any data of RHC alleles. I'm pretty sure I've gone through every useful study there is online.

Frequencies of RHC alleles: I've seen percentages of RHC(Red hair variants) from the British isles, South France, Germany, Finland, Spain, Italy, Scandinavia, Greece, and Sardinia. It's most popular in the British isles(Ireland has more than Britain). Around 30-50% of British/Irish have an RHC allele. Germany, Scandinavia, and Finland have around 30% carriers. Spain, Italy, Greece, South France, and Sardinia have 15-20%.

The Balkans, NorthEast Europe(xFinland), and Urals are the only major genetic-regions of Europe I haven't seen frequencies in. My guess is NorthEast Europe and the Urals have 20-30%, except some Urals will have 40%(eg Udmurts). My guess is the Balkans will range from 15-25%. I'm pretty sure everyone in the Middle East has lower frequencies of RHC than everyone in Europe, but maybe not. Samartians have the highest amount of R151C in the world.

One SNP I think should be deleted from the list in the FTDNA project: V60L(rs1805005): It has little to know affect. It's very popular, and in particular most popular in West Asia.

RHC variants in my opinion: D84C(rs1805006 A), R151C(rs1805007 T), R160W(rs1805008 T), D294H(rs1805009 C), l155T(rs111400 C), R142H(rs11547464 A), S83P(rs34474212 A).

Those are the most popular. There are many, maybe dozens, of other MC1R variants that are very very very rare. Most aren't tested by commercial DNA tests.

Two R alleles sometimes result in Dark or Blond hair: It's very rare, but sometimes people with two R alleles don't have Red hair. Most with 1 allele don't have Red hair. Sometimes though these people will have Pale skin, Red beards, Skin Cancer, or Melanoma.

There are causes outside of the MC1R gene: Around 1/10 or 2/10 Redheads lack any MC1R mutation. Several had their entire MC1R gene sequenced. So, there are causes outside of the MC1R gene.

Distribution of Variants: R151C everywhere in Europe is the most popular variant, except Spain and Sardinia. In North Europe(British Isles, Germany, Scandinavia, Poland, Finland) R151C+R160W take up to 80% of variants. In Greece it appears the same is true, but there isn't a large enough sample set to be sure.

I couldn't get frequencies of specific variants for Italy and South France. All I learned was R151C was the most popular variant for both. In Spain and Sardinia D294H is slightly more popular than R151C, I155T, and R142H were also around as popular or more than R160W. All three of those variants are very unpopular in North Europe compared to R151C+R160W.

Reflection on Ancient DNA: R160W+R151C take up 64% of Ancient RHC variants(6000-1000 BC). R142H is the only variant found in Neolithic Europe, and it was found in LBK. R160W+R151C only make an appearance in Mesolithic Sweden and Steppe or Steppe-admixed Late Neolithic/Bronze age folk. The obvious guess would be that most modern R160W+R151C are from the Bronze age Steppe. Today there's a correlation between Steppe-ancestry and Red hair. It was also popular in Sintashta/Andronovo(With the few samples we have), but no carriers have been found in Corded Ware.

Krefter
08-02-2015, 03:19 AM
I've added RHC(Red variant) frequencies to my "Modern West Eurasian Pigmentation (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1tsv3eJkbes6pNbq3ACSYPUuXgTXe2IfhBasUiTSVN WI)" Spreadsheet. All the data there can be compared to my "Pre-Historic West Eurasian Phenotype (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xe9sgt0PSt6cUQ3cYp14foBoaVGsOKZBmmHJoKz0H B0)" spreadsheet.

There's a clear trend in RHC-frequencies, but there's very little reliable data online on Red hair percentages. I found three. One modern (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC0QFjAFahUKEwiV9cPes4nHAhWGzIAKHYiXBpM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theapricity.com%2Fforum%2Fsho wthread.php%3F35882-New-Hair-and-Eye-color-statistics-(2011)&ei=b4e9VdWBDoaZgwSIr5qYCQ&usg=AFQjCNG1V1r38hvFfdhSjnN5K2j6DmuPUw&sig2=p5fmknPWd_-tz3x02fOJ2Q&bvm=bv.99261572,d.eXY), one very old (https://books.google.com/books?id=DX2vRuAh6WMC&pg=PA293&lpg=PA293&dq=red+hair+distribution&source=bl&ots=0YcMvAFLHD&sig=bjZ6uyFHvRr-UOZ18QryzB_Il_U&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCIQ6AEwATgUahUKEwiU5p3rpYnHAhXCGpIKHV-mAEY#v=onepage&q=red%20hair%20distribution&f=false), and another very old with data from all over Italy (http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theapricity.com%2Fforum%2Fs howthread.php%3F33038-Are-Northern-Italians-really-25-black-haired-(Sardinian-50-)&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNEpYEESjEGt_pfewQlnJfvy1NAhqQ). It looks like everywhere in Europe Red hair is 0-1%, except in NorthWest, parts of NorthEast and SouthWest, and Far-East. Everywhere it might be under 5%, except in the British Isles and the Far-East. The old-maps posted online might be kind of reliable.

The Ural-ethnic groups where Red hair is 5%+ as far as I know are distinct from Balto-Slavs just west of them. I don't know much about them, but I know that they're largely East Asian/Siberian and their non-East Asian/Siberian side pretty closely resembles Yamnaya. It's weird that NorthEast Euros have so little Red hair, while Far-East ones have a lot, NorthWest ones have a lot, and it appear Sintashta/Andronovo had a lot. Yamnaya/Afanasievo definitely had some. They break the correlation between Red hair and Steppe-blood.

Anabasis
08-02-2015, 01:58 PM
One SNP I think should be deleted from the list in the FTDNA project: V60L(rs1805005): It has little to know affect. It's very popular, and in particular most popular in West Asia.

Krefter why do you offer that V60L deleted? Just because its found West Asia but not found in north-west Europe? My hairs are dark red, especialy my beards are red and only allele i belong to in the list is V60L. I think V60L explains something about red hair. May be red beards.

evon
08-02-2015, 02:22 PM
Sent you a join request (but the request sent prematurely as I pressed enter), my "positive" results using the list provided:

rs1805007 - CT Guess this one is responsible for my red beard and red tinted hair? As both my Maternal uncle and grandmother carry it, and my cousin via this Maternal uncle also have the same red hair trait as I do...

My Paternal aunt is positive for rs1805008 - CT, but I dont seem to be a carrier for this SNP and she is naturally blond..

evon
08-02-2015, 02:37 PM
Anyways according to this 23andme article (http://blog.23andme.com/health-traits/no-im-not-irish/) R160W is the most popular red hair variant in Central-East Europe and Scandinavia, while R151C(CT in rs1805007) is the most popular red hair variant in the British isles. I think it can confidently be said red hair existed at modern-like frequencies in Late Neolithic/Bronze age Europe, and that R151C and R160W were the main variants like today.


Seems like my R151C gene might be derived from British/Irish immigration to Norway I guess, it correlates with the strong British/Irish % my maternal line get in autosomal tests, which could potentially be via the same migration event.

Krefter
08-02-2015, 09:05 PM
Krefter why do you offer that V60L deleted? Just because its found West Asia but not found in north-west Europe? My hairs are dark red, especialy my beards are red and only allele i belong to in the list is V60L. I think V60L explains something about red hair. May be red beards.

It probably does have an affect, that's what the data suggests. Studies usually label it as an r mutation, meaning it's a minor variant. If this FTDNA project continues I think RHC variants should be separated as "R" and "r". There are dozens of mutations in MC1R that can be labeled as "r" mutations.

Krefter
09-11-2015, 04:52 AM
It looks like Copper age Spaniard ATP2(4849-4628 C14 cal yBP) from the recent study Günther et al. (2015) may have had R151C(rs1805007). In 5 runs he had the ancestral C allele and in 1 one he had the derived T allele. The authors say the T allele may be because of "post-mortem damage". The other two Chaloithic Spanish tested for rs1805007 had CC. It would not be a surprise if ATP2 had R151C, considering it has existed for 38,000 years(K14 had it).

Krefter
11-30-2015, 07:35 PM
The recent paper "Genome-wide patterns of selection in 230 ancient Eurasians" has allele calls in Red hair SNPs(rs1805008, rs1805009) that are contradictory to what Genetoicker. Most importantly Geneticker found one of the Motala HGs had a derived allele in rs1805008 but this paper did not. I emailed the lead author Ian Matheison about this. He said derived alleles in rs1805008 and rs1805007 are often the result of DNA damage. So, we can't trust all of the rs1805008+7 results Geneticker got.

In "Genome-wide patterns of selection in 230 ancient Eurasians" derived alleles in rs111400 only pops up in Motala HGs and "Steppe"(Steppe and Steppe-admixed) and rs1805008/rs1805009 only pop up in "Steppe". Ian Matheison said the only absolutely legitimate rs1805008 derived call is RISE395 from Sintashta culture.

Besides derived allele in rs111400 there's no confirmation the Motala HGs had the potential for Red hair. The earliest confirmation of rs1805008/rs1805009 which are 2/3 SNPs most associated with Red hair is in "Steppe". Getting academic calls in rs1805007 is vital but "Genome-wide patterns of selection in 230 ancient Eurasians" didn't test it. The origins of Red hair in Europe remains mysterious. The only plausible theory looking at ancient DNA is it mostly comes from Steppe or Steppe+MN admixed populations.

Macura
11-30-2015, 09:35 PM
rs1805008 - CC
rs885479 - AG
rs2228479 - GG
rs1805006 - CC
rs1110400 - TT
rs1805005 - GG

Somewhat reddish beard. Grandpa had red hair.

rms2
12-02-2015, 05:27 PM
. . . Ian Matheison said the only absolutely legitimate rs1805008 derived call is RISE395 from Sintashta culture . . .

Since rs1805008 (Arg160Trp) is the variant my dad and I carry, that is very interesting to me. Wasn't one of the Bell Beaker females a carrier of one of the other red hair variants?

Do you have a spread sheet on these ancient red hair results?

Krefter
12-02-2015, 07:55 PM
Since rs1805008 (Arg160Trp) is the variant my dad and I carry, that is very interesting to me. Wasn't one of the Bell Beaker females a carrier of one of the other red hair variants?

Do you have a spread sheet on these ancient red hair results?

Yes one a Bell Beaker female had R151C(rs1805007) according to Geneticker. Here's my spreadhseet: Pre-Historic Carriers of Red Hair (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b9jirNZShY0Wnu0oARjd0LSimwynJNIfyzPXwGCDnq4/edit#gid=0). Several Neolithic Anatolians had R160W and Iain Mathieson confirmed this. However, he suspects it is DNA damage. This is what he has to say about rs1805007 and rs1805008 and DNA damage.

Ian Mathieson,
One thing I would be careful with is that rs1805007 and rs1805008 are C->T snps so it is possible that you would see the derived allele because of damage, so I think it's tough to be absolutely sure that it's real. I think the only steppe sample that convincingly has it is RISE395 from the Allentoft paper.

The derived calls in rs1805007 and rs1805008 that geneticker gets might be legit and they might not be. IMO, they are probably correct. Results he gets for other C>T SNPs make sense. I guess though RISE395 is the only one we can be very confident about.

The results geneticker gets make a lot of sense to me. 5-10% people in South Europe have R160W or R151C, 20-40% in North Europe do, there's even a 3%+ presence in the Middle East and South Asia. If we look at the begging of writing in Europe, there's mention of Red hair in the Iliad, writers claimed there's were ethnic group that were 100% Red haired(Budni, Germania, Britian), there were Romans with Red hair. I'd be very surprised if 0% of 230 ancient Europeans/Asian ancestors of Europeans had R160W or R151C.

Every Pre-Historic populations has representatives according to Geneticker. Both R160W+R151C are in Copper age Spain, Neolithic Anatolia, Mesolithic Sweden, Bronze age Steppe, Bronze age Europe. The results make a lot of sense to me. It wouldn't make any sense to me that Red hair was selected for or gives a survival advantage. It makes more sense it has been in West Eurasia for a very long time and has always been very rare.

Anyways, Allentoft confirms the presence of R160W in Bronze age Europe, Mathieson confirms its presence in Bronze age Steppe, D294H is confirmed in Bronze age Europe, several other variants are confirmed in Mesolithic and Neolithic Europe.

rms2
12-02-2015, 08:12 PM
I don't have much faith in Geneticker, but Mathieson is worth listening to. I recall that St. Athanasius, who was an Egyptian but probably of Greek origin, is supposed to have been a redhead.

reagan
12-02-2015, 08:57 PM
This is a bit confusing, can you say which ones should we check for the red hair genes?

rms2
12-02-2015, 11:53 PM
This is a bit confusing, can you say which ones should we check for the red hair genes?

If you look at the Background page of the Red Hair Variants Project here (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/red-hair-variants/about/background), you'll see a couple of tables of the most common red hair variants. You can check your Family Finder, 23andMe, or other autosomal dna test results for them.

Krefter
12-15-2015, 07:02 AM
I believe I may have found two new Red hair Variants: rs12931267(A>G, FANCA gene) and rs3212379(C>T, MC1R gene).

rs3212379: It has not been associated with Red hair in papers AFIAK. It is very rare and only appears in Europe(in all public data I've seen so far) with 1% having CT at the most. I think it might help produce Red hair because 3/5 people with CT in this SNP at openSNP either have Red head hair or Red influence on their facial hair. One has Red hair, one has Auburn hair, one has Red-Brown facial hair, one has Blonde hair, and one has Brown hair. Considering how rare Red hair is, it's hard to believe this is a coincidence.

rs12931267: This is an equivalent of rs1805007. If someone has TT in rs1805007 chances are they have GG in rs12931267, if someone has TC one they'll have GC in the other, etc. Even though they are in a differnt gene somehow rs1805007 and rs12931267 are connected.

EDIT: Because rs1805007 is a C>T SNP and in ancient DNA can suffer from DNA damage, I'm going to ask Geneticker to get calls for this SNP in all the ancient samples he found derived in rs1805007. Mathieson 2015 gives allele frequencies for rs12931267, it first pops up in "Steppe" at 1.2% allele frequency.

Mellifluous
12-15-2015, 09:34 PM
23andme results v4

rs1805007 CT
rs12931267 CG

My hair has a red tint to it.

Mellifluous
12-15-2015, 09:54 PM
Can I join the secret society?

Edit: Seems I'm unable to because FTDNA discriminates against my alleles.

Krefter
12-16-2015, 12:16 AM
Something interesting is several East Asians, with no known Western ancestry, have the derived G allele in rs12931267 but lack the derived T allele in rs1805007. I wonder if rs1805007 is apart of a haplotype which creates Red hair and East Asians have a brother version of this haplotype which doesn't include rs1805007(and Red hair). It's possible. I'm not sure what a haplotype is though so......


23andme results v4

rs1805007 CT
rs12931267 CG

My hair has a red tint to it.

What's your background; British?

Mellifluous
12-16-2015, 12:45 AM
Something interesting is several East Asians, with no known Western ancestry, have the derived G allele in rs12931267 but lack the derived T allele in rs1805007. I wonder if rs1805007 is apart of a haplotype which creates Red hair and East Asians have a brother version of this haplotype which doesn't include rs1805007(and Red hair). It's possible. I'm not sure what a haplotype is though so......



What's your background; British?

Nope, Afghan Pashtun with some Nuristani ancestry (great grandmother). I tend to score more Atlantic on tests though compared to other users on here from my ethnic group, but I doubt my red hair alleles are from England! Probably steppe related.

6946

My hair under sunlight. Kind of red, but not as red as yours!

evon
12-16-2015, 12:08 PM
I believe I may have found two new Red hair Variants: rs12931267(A>G, FANCA gene) and rs3212379(C>T, MC1R gene).

rs3212379: It has not been associated with Red hair in papers AFIAK. It is very rare and only appears in Europe(in all public data I've seen so far) with 1% having CT at the most. I think it might help produce Red hair because 3/5 people with CT in this SNP at openSNP either have Red head hair or Red influence on their facial hair. One has Red hair, one has Auburn hair, one has Red-Brown facial hair, one has Blonde hair, and one has Brown hair. Considering how rare Red hair is, it's hard to believe this is a coincidence.

rs12931267: This is an equivalent of rs1805007. If someone has TT in rs1805007 chances are they have GG in rs12931267, if someone has TC one they'll have GC in the other, etc. Even though they are in a differnt gene somehow rs1805007 and rs12931267 are connected.

EDIT: Because rs1805007 is a C>T SNP and in ancient DNA can suffer from DNA damage, I'm going to ask Geneticker to get calls for this SNP in all the ancient samples he found derived in rs1805007. Mathieson 2015 gives allele frequencies for rs12931267, it first pops up in "Steppe" at 1.2% allele frequency.


rs3212379 - CC
rs12931267 - CG (aunt CC)

I already carry other red hair SNP's, have red tinted hair and a copper red beard..

Krefter
12-16-2015, 06:41 PM
Keyser 2009 tested rs1805008 and rs1805007 in their Bronze/Iron age Siberians. One had rs1805007 CT, he was from Tagar culture and 100-400 AD. Now there's academic confirmation of both R160W and R151C in R1a-Z93 dominated Steppe groups.

Mellifluous
12-29-2015, 09:51 AM
Keyser 2009 tested rs1805008 and rs1805007 in their Bronze/Iron age Siberians. One had rs1805007 CT, he was from Tagar culture and 100-400 AD. Now there's academic confirmation of both R160W and R151C in R1a-Z93 dominated Steppe groups.

Might be where I get my alleles from :)

paulgill
12-30-2015, 05:49 AM
May be already posted here?

http://www.irishcentral.com/roots/the-light-skin-of-the-irish-can-be-traced-to-india-and-the-middle-east-239166271-239671671.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29950844

rms2
02-02-2016, 01:55 AM
Can I join the secret society?

Edit: Seems I'm unable to because FTDNA discriminates against my alleles.

You can join the Red Hair Variants Project, if you are an FTDNA customer.

When you submit your join request, just list your results the way you did in that initial post.

rms2
02-02-2016, 02:00 AM
Keyser 2009 tested rs1805008 and rs1805007 in their Bronze/Iron age Siberians. One had rs1805007 CT, he was from Tagar culture and 100-400 AD. Now there's academic confirmation of both R160W and R151C in R1a-Z93 dominated Steppe groups.

We just had a Russian guy (surname Zyatkov) join with an Arg160Trp (R160W) result. He is R1a-Z93 (terminal SNP listed as R-KMS149, but that's downstream of Z93).

We have a pretty wide-ranging set of members at the Red Hair Variants Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/RedHairVariants?iframe=yresults). It's fascinating.

rms2
02-14-2016, 12:16 AM
Folks, if you have autosomal dna test results and are an FTDNA customer, take a look at your raw autosomal test results and see if you are a carrier of a red hair variant. If you are, please join the Red Hair Variants DNA Project. Just look at the Background page at the project to see which variant, if any, you carry.

To show up on the project's web site, you must have some y-dna or mtDNA test results.

Red Hair Variants Project, Background (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/red-hair-variants/about/background)

rms2
02-19-2016, 01:20 AM
I just got my Ancestry DNA results this evening, and I found they contain a third confirmation that I am a carrier of the red hair variant Arg160Trp (R160W). I downloaded my raw data and just for grins checked rs1805008. There was my TC result, and T is the red hair risk allele. So now FTDNA, BritainsDNA, and Ancestry have all three confirmed it.

rms2
04-02-2016, 10:05 PM
Check out this video on the "Redhead Days" festival at Breda in the Netherlands.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP6itWEAEeI&ebc=ANyPxKo_NHgch3kMjB2rzW7NSd1_aIF6gul9xLl0yPla1q 2ldaYcnG8aSWjIp9jPwTkqHSECxX1ZCxT19tflDpD9OGiBwC41 iA

George Chandler
04-03-2016, 07:05 PM
I just got my Ancestry DNA results this evening, and I found they contain a third confirmation that I am a carrier of the red hair variant Arg160Trp (R160W). I downloaded my raw data and just for grins checked rs1805008. There was my TC result, and T is the red hair risk allele. So now FTDNA, BritainsDNA, and Ancestry have all three confirmed it.

It is a fascinating project. When you received your Ancestry DNA data is the red hair data displayed in the results analysis or is it hidden away as in Family Finder and you download the GZIP?

George Chandler
04-03-2016, 10:19 PM
It's interesting because I had really auburn colored hair when I was young. I'm negative for all of the red hair variants on both my paternal and maternal lines. Where are you getting the rs1805007 and rs1805009 results from?

The other thing (though not related to red hair) is that my dad is the most lactose intolerant person in the family and yet he has the A-A variant which is the least likely to be lactose intolerant. I guess there is always an exception tot he rule.

rms2
04-04-2016, 05:41 PM
It is a fascinating project. When you received your Ancestry DNA data is the red hair data displayed in the results analysis or is it hidden away as in Family Finder and you download the GZIP?

You have to download your raw data, unzip it and search for the individual SNPs.

rms2
04-04-2016, 05:47 PM
It's interesting because I had really auburn colored hair when I was young. I'm negative for all of the red hair variants on both my paternal and maternal lines. Where are you getting the rs1805007 and rs1805009 results from?

Those aren't included in Family Finder but they are in 23andMe and in BritainsDNA Chromo2 Red Head test results.

There are numerous red hair variants out there. Not all them of them are posted at the Red Hair Variants Project, just the most common ones. You could carry one of the rarer ones I have not heard of yet.



The other thing (though not related to red hair) is that my dad is the most lactose intolerant person in the family and yet he has the A-A variant which is the least likely to be lactose intolerant. I guess there is always an exception tot he rule.

He could be reacting to something else in milk. A1 and A2 Beta-Casein in Milk (http://www.snowvillecreamery.com/a1-and-a2-beta-casein-in-cow-milk.html)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
04-04-2016, 06:56 PM
My chromo 2 Cymru/Britain's DNA results tell me I have two red hair variants in my MC1R gene, Val92 Met and Arg160 Trp. I think it's been suggested here that Val92Met isn't a red hair variant, but that's what I'm told.
As I child I had white blond hair and as an adult some sandy coloured facial hair.

rms2
04-04-2016, 08:26 PM
My chromo 2 Cymru/Britain's DNA results tell me I have two red hair variants in my MC1R gene, Val92 Met and Arg160 Trp. I think it's been suggested here that Val92Met isn't a red hair variant, but that's what I'm told.
As I child I had white blond hair and as an adult some sandy coloured facial hair.

As far as I know, Val92Met is a red hair variant, but it may not to be as strong a variant as Arg160Trp. If you ever test with FTDNA, you should join the Red Hair Variants Project. You wouldn't need a autosomal test; even a simple 12-marker y-dna str test would do. Your Chromo2 Red Head Test results will cover your red hair variant requirement.

800LA
05-25-2016, 07:02 PM
I know these SNPs aren't as commonly discussed as the ones in this thread but I was wondering if someone could comment on my SNPs. I'm doing research to find possible red hair variants:

SNPs Chr Location Alleles
rs164741 16 AG
rs16966142 16 TC
rs2241032 16 AG
rs2306633 16 AG
rs352935 16 TC
rs464349 16 TC
rs7188458 16 AG
rs7195066 16 TC
rs7204478 16 TC
rs8058895 16 TC
rs6785780 3 TG
rs17226075 16 TC
rs1466540 16 TC
rs1061646 16 AG
rs3212361 16 AA

Webb
06-06-2016, 01:55 PM
I finally ran my FF test results through Promethease and I have two variants.

rs1805008(c;c)
rs1805006(c;c)

Promethease claims having a c value is considered a wild-type?

George Chandler
07-17-2016, 06:42 PM
Still waiting for the red hair variant "I should have" to be discovered in results. I had auburn hair when I was young (as did my mother). So far Family Finder and 23&Me results for me and both of my parents have returned a less than 1% of people with our results have red hair, and greater than 20% have blonde hair (which none of us being tested have). My brother did have very blonde hair as a child though.

George

JMcB
07-17-2016, 07:58 PM
At one time I had red hair in my beard and my hair was reddish brown but now my beard is white and my hair has lost it's overtones. Nevertheless, when my Family Finder results come in, I'll see if I can find what your looking for.

galon07
07-19-2016, 03:44 AM
rs1805008 - CC
rs885479 - GG
rs2228479 - GG
rs1110400 - TT
rs1805005 - TG

Hair is light brown but has a little reddish tone under sunlight. I also have some few red hair in the beard.
One of my aunts and one of my cousins do have red hair.

Cyrianne
07-21-2016, 11:04 AM
I am waiting for my own FTDNA results.

However, can you "convert" 23&me info. I would assume I have a red hair gene somewhere given at least one grandparent was red haired, the other had like dad a red beard, mum has red highlights, and a number of close relatives are red haired. My own blonde has such a reddish tint under certain lights that this St. Patrick's day a patient at the pharmacy informed me I must be Irish given my red hair. Mind you the look I gave my colleague once he left caused her to burst into hysterics.

rs1805008 CT
rs885479 GG
rs2228479 GG
rs1805006 CC
rs1110400 TT
rs1805005 GG
rs11547464 GG
rs1805009 ....
rs1805007 CC
rs34474212 TT

rms2
01-30-2017, 05:07 PM
My youngest son's Family Finder results just came in today. I downloaded his raw data and checked for a few things, including the red hair variant I carry, Arg160Trp (rs1805008). I was somewhat surprised to discover he carries two Ts there, and T is the risk allele (the one for red hair). Jim was born with red hair, but it changed to strawberry blond as he got older and was really blond when he was a teenager. Now he keeps his hair really short, but it is kind of a strawberry blond (reddish blond). His beard and moustache, however, when he grows them, are bright orange.

He is also, like me, homozygous for the two most common European lactase persistence variants.

Jessie
01-30-2017, 05:20 PM
I finally ran my FF test results through Promethease and I have two variants.

rs1805008(c;c)
rs1805006(c;c)

Promethease claims having a c value is considered a wild-type?

I think you have to have a T on that to have a variant. CC means no variant. That's my understanding anyway.

Jessie
01-30-2017, 05:23 PM
My youngest son's Family Finder results just came in today. I downloaded his raw data and checked for a few things, including the red hair variant I carry, Arg160Trp (rs1805008). I was somewhat surprised to discover he carries two Ts there, and T is the risk allele (the one for red hair). Jim was born with red hair, but it changed to strawberry blond as he got older and was really blond when he was a teenager. Now he keeps his hair really short, but it is kind of a strawberry blond (reddish blond). His beard and moustache, however, when he grows them, are bright orange.

He is also, like me, homozygous for the two most common European lactase persistence variants.

I've never checked my FF results. Do you know if they have more variants than 23andMe? Some red hair variants don't appear to be included in 23andMe. I'll have to download sometime and check. I have the variant on rs1805008 as does all my family members tested but I've never check FF.

rms2
01-30-2017, 05:25 PM
I've never checked my FF results. Do you know if they have more variants than 23andMe? Some red hair variants don't appear to be included in 23andMe. I'll have to download sometime and check. I have the variant on rs1805008 as does all my family members tested but I've never check FF.

I think 23andMe actually has a couple that FTDNA does not include, but I'm not sure. It's been awhile since I checked on that, and I never did test with 23andMe myself, just FTDNA, Ancestry DNA, and BritainsDNA.

rms2
01-30-2017, 06:11 PM
I finally ran my FF test results through Promethease and I have two variants.

rs1805008(c;c)
rs1805006(c;c)

Promethease claims having a c value is considered a wild-type?


I think you have to have a T on that to have a variant. CC means no variant. That's my understanding anyway.

That is right for rs1805008: the risk allele is a T. But for rs1805006 the risk allele is an A.

The "wild type" refers to what most people have, i.e., those who aren't carriers of a red hair variant.

Sorry I missed Webb's post back in June, but this thread has a way of getting snowed under quickly by all the other autosomal traffic in this subforum.

Calas
01-31-2017, 08:58 PM
rs1805008 - TC
rs885479 - GG
rs2228479 - GG
rs1805006 - CC
rs1110400 - CT
rs1805005 - GG

*Edit* I forgot you asked some facts.

Hair - black, or rather extremely dark brown. Dad - dirty blonde, mom - brown. But between three [one paternal, two maternal] aunts & their kids, nine redheads.

rms2
02-03-2017, 11:01 PM
rs1805008 - TC
rs885479 - GG
rs2228479 - GG
rs1805006 - CC
rs1110400 - CT
rs1805005 - GG

*Edit* I forgot you asked some facts.

Hair - black, or rather extremely dark brown. Dad - dirty blonde, mom - brown. But between three [one paternal, two maternal] aunts & their kids, nine redheads.

Are you an FTDNA customer? If so, please join the Red Hair Variants Project: Red Hair Variants Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/red-hair-variants/about)

We also have a Facebook group: Red Hair Variants Project (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1098984713472552/)

Calas
02-04-2017, 12:24 AM
Are you an FTDNA customer? If so, please join the Red Hair Variants Project: Red Hair Variants Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/red-hair-variants/about)

We also have a Facebook group: Red Hair Variants Project (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1098984713472552/)

Yes, I am part of FTDNA. I'd have to ask but I think a cousin already joined. Still want me to as well?

rms2
02-04-2017, 12:34 AM
Yes, I am part of FTDNA. I'd have to ask but I think a cousin already joined. Still want me to as well?

Yes. Please join.

Calas
02-04-2017, 01:07 AM
Yes. Please join.

Oh, I certainly will.

It just won't be for a bit. I am, after all, still sort of getting around to unpacking this swarm of moving boxes all over the place. It's just taking a bit longer. My lovely colleague quit without any warning & well I techniquely wasn't supposed to have worked half the hours I worked this week.

Kiln
02-04-2017, 02:35 AM
rs1805005 16 89985844 TT


Seems I have one?

Jessie
02-04-2017, 06:50 AM
rs1805005 16 89985844 TT


Seems I have one?

I'm GT on that but I thought that was more for blond hair.

Kiln
02-04-2017, 07:23 AM
I'm GT on that but I thought that was more for blond hair.


rs1805005, known as Val60Leu or V60L, is a SNP in the MC1R gene associated with light blond hair color in one study.

Yep.

Had blonde hair until mid teens, steadily darker since.

Rather ugly, in between brown now, imo.

rms2
02-04-2017, 12:40 PM
rs1805005 16 89985844 TT


Seems I have one?

That is Val60Leu (aka V60L), and it is listed as a red hair variant. If you are an FTDNA customer, please join the Red Hair Variants Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/red-hair-variants/about). When you join, please list the info you posted above about your variant in your Join Request so that I know which category to place you in.

As I mentioned above, we also have a Facebook group, if you're interested: Red Hair Variants Project (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1098984713472552/)

Jessie
02-04-2017, 05:03 PM
I thought that rs1805005 was associated with blond hair. Both myself, brother and mother have the T allele on this and also on rs1805008. I was blond as a child but now I'm more light brown. Never knew it was associated with red hair but that is interesting if it is.

rs1805005, known as Val60Leu or V60L, is a SNP in the MC1R gene associated with light blond hair color in one study. [PMID 9302268]

https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1805005

Jessie
02-04-2017, 05:25 PM
That is Val60Leu (aka V60L), and it is listed as a red hair variant. If you are an FTDNA customer, please join the Red Hair Variants Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/red-hair-variants/about). When you join, please list the info you posted above about your variant in your Join Request so that I know which category to place you in.

As I mentioned above, we also have a Facebook group, if you're interested: Red Hair Variants Project (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1098984713472552/)

My brother is already in the red hair project and is under the rs1805008 section. If he has a risk allele under rs1805005 does he go under there as well? I guess it depends on the aim of the project.

rms2
02-04-2017, 05:41 PM
My brother is already in the red hair project and is under the rs1805008 section. If he has a risk allele under rs1805005 does he go under there as well? I guess it depends on the aim of the project.

Yes, there are categories for people with combinations of variants. Please send me an email, if you wouldn't mind, and I'll move him to the right category.

I wish FTDNA listed red hair variants in a person's myFTDNA pages someplace. It sure would make things easier!

Solothurn
02-04-2017, 06:38 PM
Both my mum and I are CT on rs1805008 at 23andMe. My mum had red hair but I do not!

My mum's mum also had red hair and she was a Stevenson :)

rms2
02-04-2017, 08:15 PM
Both my mum and I are CT on rs1805008 at 23andMe. My mum had red hair but I do not!

My mum's mum also had red hair and she was a Stevenson :)

Please join! We need more members. Also remember our Facebook group (the link appears in a couple of posts above).

I carry the same variant. My hair was blond when I was a kid and went dark in my twenties (now gray). My facial hair had a lot of red and blond in it. My moustache was completely red when I was younger.

Solothurn
02-05-2017, 02:32 AM
Mum's 23andMe MC1R results

rs3212354 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs3212354) CT





rs3212358 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs3212358) AG


rs3212379 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs3212379) CC







rs3212361 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs3212361) AG

rs3212363 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs3212363) AT






rs61996344 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs61996344) TT






rs1805005 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs1805005) GG






rs34474212 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs34474212) TT






rs1805006 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs1805006) CC

rs2228479 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs2228479) GG






rs34158934 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs34158934) CC

rs2229617 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs2229617) GG

rs11547464 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs11547464) GG






rs1805007 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs1805007) CT





rs1110400 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs1110400) TT






i5005574 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=i5005574) CC






i5005575 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=i5005575) CC






rs1805008 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs1805008) CT

rs885479 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs885479) GG






i3002507 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=i3002507) GG






rs2228478 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs2228478) AA


rs34020587 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs34020587) GG

rs3212369 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs3212369) AA







rs3212370 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs3212370) CC






rs3212371 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs3212371) AA

Solothurn
02-05-2017, 02:38 AM
I didn't intend for the above pattern to show
:behindsofa:

My Stevenson line also has Stephenson, Stephens and probably Stevens. All from Manchester area, England!

Calas
02-05-2017, 03:50 AM
All from Manchester area, England!

Interesting in a way. Your mother, who seems to carry quite a few variations, is from Manchester I take it too?

Solothurn
02-05-2017, 03:55 AM
Yes :)


Interesting in a way. Your mother, who seems to carry quite a few variations, is from Manchester I take it too?

Calas
02-05-2017, 04:16 AM
Yes :)

As I said, the number of your mother's variables is interesting. It'd indicate there's quite a bit of red hair in your family by chance??

Solothurn
02-05-2017, 04:22 AM
Yes, both sisters and brother have red hair. I was blonde as a kid but went darker then bald :P


As I said, the number of your mother's variables is interesting. It'd indicate there's quite a bit of red hair in your family by chance??

Calas
02-05-2017, 04:27 AM
Yes, both sisters and brother have red hair. I was blonde as a kid but went darker then bald :P

Yeah sorry for the questions. Just your mother's stats caught my eye.

I am just rather curious as most of the redheads which is mom's mother's side in my family can be found Liverpool to Sheffield inching down near Ashbourne. That'd be three, well no four, solid generations - great-grandmother, grandmother, aunts, and kids - of redheads. Maybe there was a hoard of redheads in the area back in the day.

Ironically no Stevenson, Stephensons, Stephens, etc. though.

Solothurn
02-05-2017, 04:35 AM
My mum's known ancestry is Lancashire, Cheshire and Staffordshire. North Wales: Wrexam.

Lots of matches with Irish and Scottish so maybe ancestry from these areas too!

Tree: Here
(http://cowings.tribalpages.com/tribe/browse?userid=cowings&view=9&randi=604365279)

Yeah sorry for the questions. Just your mother's stats caught my eye.

I am just rather curious as most of the redheads which is mom's mother's side in my family can be found Liverpool to Sheffield inching down near Ashbourne. That'd be three, well no four, solid generations - great-grandmother, grandmother, aunts, and kids - of redheads. Maybe there was a hoard of redheads in the area back in the day.

Ironically no Stevenson, Stephensons, Stephens, etc. though.

rms2
02-05-2017, 01:56 PM
My mum's known ancestry is Lancashire, Cheshire and Staffordshire. North Wales: Wrexam.

Lots of matches with Irish and Scottish so maybe ancestry from these areas too!

Tree: Here
(http://cowings.tribalpages.com/tribe/browse?userid=cowings&view=9&randi=604365279)

Your mom is positive for both Arg151Cys and Arg160Trp, but you are only positive for Arg160Trp, right?

I was able to connect your posts here to your Join Request for the Red Hair Variants Project. I put you in the Arg160Trp category, but there is an Arg151Cys + Arg160Trp category, if you are also positive for Arg151Cys like your mother. Just let me know.

Solothurn
02-05-2017, 05:06 PM
I do not know :( The only MC1R marker we differ on is rs1805007, I have CC mum's is CT.

I have requested we both join at FTDNA as I have the mtDNA on there!

rms2
02-05-2017, 05:10 PM
I do not know :( The only MC1R marker we differ on is rs1805007, I have CC mum's is CT.

I have requested we both join at FTDNA as I have the mtDNA on there!

I have you in the Arg160Trp (rs1805008) category. I did not see a join request from your mother.

rms2
02-05-2017, 05:31 PM
Thanks, Solothurn. Your mother's entry won't show up on the public web site until she has some mtDNA results. That's just the way FTDNA projects work. One must have either y-dna or mtDNA results or both to show up.

Solothurn
02-05-2017, 05:38 PM
Mum passed away in 2014 so won't show and it was a transfer from 23andMe :(


Thanks, Solothurn. Your mother's entry won't show up on the public web site until she has some mtDNA results. That's just the way FTDNA projects work. One must have either y-dna or mtDNA results or both to show up.

rms2
02-05-2017, 05:49 PM
Mum passed away in 2014 so won't show and it was a transfer from 23andMe :(

Can you transfer mtDNA results over from 23andMe? Is mtDNA part of 23andMe's testing?

Solothurn
02-05-2017, 06:04 PM
Yes, we only got H1c at 23andMe it showed no-calls for H1c3. The v3 chip was too old to show H1c3b.

As far as I know FTDNA only accept autosomal data :(

rms2
02-05-2017, 06:08 PM
As far as I know FTDNA only accept autosomal data :(

It might be worth a shot to write or call and ask them if they might change that.

Solothurn
02-05-2017, 06:10 PM
Please see my last post


It might be worth a shot to write or call and ask them if they might change that.

Solothurn
02-05-2017, 06:30 PM
Mum has 75% British Isles on 'My Origins' and awaiting LivingDNA upload option to see if it offers any clues on Irish and Scottish ancestry.

I know the data on 23andMe is from V3 but it has a lot more SNPs than LivingDNA's autosomal data. I don't know the quality though:(

rms2
02-05-2017, 06:36 PM
My mother is 82 but still around. I only have Family Finder results for her, but I might eventually do the mtDNA FGS on her sample. She is not a carrier of any of the red hair variants that I know of, though. I get my Arg160Trp from my dad, and he had an older sister (my Aunt Lois, now departed) who was a flaming, carrot-top redhead. She had a fiery personality to go with her hair. Her nickname with us was "Aunt Sassy".

rms2
02-06-2017, 01:11 PM
I must have inadvertently offended someone through something I posted in this thread somehow. We've had a few people join the project in the last few days, but at least one person quit, remarking that the project appears to be "dead". Remarkable how it coincidentally managed to breathe its last just after this thread started back up.

It wasn't my intent to offend anyone. Don't know how I did it.

Amerijoe
02-06-2017, 01:28 PM
I must have inadvertently offended someone through something I posted in this thread somehow. We've had a few people join the project in the last few days, but at least one person quit, remarking that the project appears to be "dead". Remarkable how it coincidentally managed to breathe its last just after this thread started back up.

It wasn't my intent to offend anyone. Don't know how I did it.

Red hair envy, it happens! ;)

Solothurn
02-06-2017, 03:03 PM
Gingerphobia :)

https://www.factretriever.com/redhead-facts

Is it known when red hair mutations first occurred?

Ruadh gu brath


I must have inadvertently offended someone through something I posted in this thread somehow. We've had a few people join the project in the last few days, but at least one person quit, remarking that the project appears to be "dead". Remarkable how it coincidentally managed to breathe its last just after this thread started back up.

It wasn't my intent to offend anyone. Don't know how I did it.

deadly77
02-07-2017, 06:15 AM
I joined this weekend - thanks for letting me join. Interesting project! My results from 23andme test (looks like it has two additional markers in comparison to FTDNA):

rs1805008 16 89986144 CC Negative
rs885479 16 89986154 GG Negative
rs2228479 16 89985940 GG Negative
rs1805006 16 89985918 CC Negative
rs1110400 16 89986130 CT Postive
rs1805005 16 89985844 GT Positive
rs11547464 16 89986091 GG Negative
rs1805009 Not Found
rs1805007 16 89986117 CC Negative
rs34474212 Not Found

So I think I am positive as a carrier for Ile155Thr and Val60Leu. I don't have red hair and most of my family don't. My grandmother's sister on my father's side had red hair, and I'm told that her mother (my great-grandmother) did also.

Calas
02-23-2017, 08:16 PM
Husband - his ancestry is in the signature
rs1805005 - TT (23&me)

Hair color - blonde to his early-20s and has steadily gotten darker. Light "cinnamon" brown nowadays. Always has had a reddish tint.

Family-wise well it is blondes & brunettes mostly. Some follow the same light to dark shading, others remain light haired [his sister's hair is very blonde]. There's true red heads but they're not that common. More it seems, among his relatives, there is the reddish tint as his hair.


FTDNA member - unfortunately, no.

Calas
02-26-2017, 11:11 AM
FTDNA member - unfortunately, no.

Don't know what possessed me to say that. He is an FTDNA member. But it is very unlikely he'll join this red hair project.

Riley
03-01-2017, 01:33 AM
I'm a bit curious, what does it mean when I don't show any result for a risk allele for red hair, when I have red hair? Granted, it's faded a bit towards brown in recent years, but as a child it was a very coppery red. My data is coming from ftDNA though, so maybe mine is coming from a gene not shown in the Family Finder results.

rs1805008 = CC
rs885479 = GG
rs2228479 = GG
rs1805006 = CC
rs1110400 = TT
rs1805005 = GG

nerdgoddess
03-01-2017, 06:06 AM
"TT" "rs1805008","16","89986144"
"CC" "rs885479","16","89986154"
"CC" "rs2228479","16","89985940"
"GT" "rs1805006","16","89985918"
"GG" "rs1110400","16","89986130"
"AA" "rs1805005","16","89985844"

Background: I have sort of medium to dark auburn hair (was lighter in color as a kid).

My father had curly red hair (think Howdy Doody...German and/or Lithuanian lineage).

My mother (Hungarian/Irish/Scottish/German) has light brown hair with some "reddish tendencies" depending on light.

My maternal grandfather's mother (German/French/Swiss - not sure as they were from Alsace-Lorraine) had darker red hair (not a gray hair on her head until the day she died at 100 years old).

My only sibling (sister) has dirty blond hair (no pic)

Solothurn
04-05-2017, 04:18 AM
Update on mum's 'My Origins' British Isles 75%,

Now 48%

Total %
West and Central Europe 51%
British Isles 48%

Trace Results
Northeast Asia< 2% Southeast Europe< 2%




Mum has 75% British Isles on 'My Origins' and awaiting LivingDNA upload option to see if it offers any clues on Irish and Scottish ancestry.

Velislav
07-24-2017, 07:31 PM
The only positive for me is rs1805005 - and it's not connected directly with red hair. However my beard in brown+reddish and my brother has ginger beard.

stefe67
07-25-2017, 05:30 AM
Hi, i have checked my FTDNA results and : found : so message send to join the group ! (my soon is red hair and i search why i have theses genes :-)

rs1805008,"16","88513645","CC"
rs885479,"16","88513655","GG"
rs2228479,"16","88513441","GG"
rs1805006,"16","88513419","CC"
rs1805005,"16","88513345","GT"
rs11104005,"12","85515105","GG"

razyn
01-28-2018, 04:37 PM
Maciamo Hay (Eupedia) has published a new study relevant to this topic. https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml

rms2
07-17-2018, 11:13 AM
My youngest daughter Anna got her Family Finder results yesterday. She is positive for the red hair variant Arg160Trp (rs1805008), like me and like my father before me. My mother doesn't carry it, nor does my wife, so she inherited that from me. She is CT there, with T being the risk allele (the one that makes her positive for it). None of the other red hair variants that are included in Family Finder showed up as positive, but Family Finder doesn't test all the red hair variants.

Here she is as a baby and as a little girl.

24674 24675

Here is a 23andMe distribution map for Arg160Trp, with some notes from me.

24676

lukaszM
07-17-2018, 11:30 AM
My youngest daughter Anna got her Family Finder results yesterday. She is positive for the red hair variant Arg160Trp (rs1805008), like me and like my father before me. My mother doesn't carry it, nor does my wife, so she inherited that from me. She is CT there, with T being the risk allele (the one that makes her positive for it). None of the other red hair variants that are included in Family Finder showed up as positive, but Family Finder doesn't test all the red hair variants.

Here she is as a baby and as a little girl.

24674 24675

Here is a 23andMe distribution map for Arg160Trp, with some notes from me.

24676

Sorry ale this map is not correct for Lithuania. there were extensive anthropometric surveys in Soviet times in Lithuania and their blond shades are ash-blond in absolute majority. Of course they checked visible phenotype but I doubt that such elevated gene frequency couldn't have any effect on living. So this frequency is wrong.

rms2
07-17-2018, 11:39 AM
Sorry ale this map is not correct for Lithuania. there were extensive anthropometric surveys in Soviet times in Lithuania and their blond shades are ash-blond in absolute majority. Of course they checked visible phenotype but I doubt that such elevated gene frequency couldn't have any effect on living. So this frequency is wrong.

As I recall, that map was constructed based on 23andMe's own stats, i.e., customer results, and not based on scientific studies.

Kasia Bryc - No, I'm Not Irish (https://blog.23andme.com/health-traits/no-im-not-irish/)

Besides, that is a map of the frequency of carriers of the risk allele (T) and not of people displaying the red haired phenotype. One can carry the risk allele and not show it, since red hair is a recessive trait.

lukaszM
07-17-2018, 12:28 PM
As I recall, that map was constructed based on 23andMe's own stats, i.e., customer results, and not based on scientific studies.

Kasia Bryc - No, I'm Not Irish (https://blog.23andme.com/health-traits/no-im-not-irish/)

Besides, that is a map of the frequency of carriers of the risk allele (T) and not of people displaying the red haired phenotype. One can carry the risk allele and not show it, since red hair is a recessive trait.

Maybe in case of Lithuania it is mostly recessive. Because Latvians display much more pure redhead phenotypes so maybe Germanic input ih their case elevated redhead frequency. Later i will post Russian table with hair color percentages.

Ais
07-17-2018, 05:02 PM
I just checked, and I'm positive for rs1805005 (T). I knew I would likely carry at least one variant, since my dad, my aunt, my cousin and my grandad all have bright red hair! Me and my grandmother are the odd ones out - she was very dark and I'm blonde. Interestingly, while blonde hair usually goes brown as you get older, my hair is turning red.

ph2ter
07-17-2018, 06:25 PM
Can somebody tell me do I have any red hair variant ( I don't understand which letter must be first and which the second):

"rs1805008","16","89986144","CT"
"rs885479","16","89986154","GG"
"rs2228479","16","89985940","AG"
"rs1805006","16","89985918","CC"
"rs1110400","16","89986130","TT"
"rs1805005","16","89985844","GG"

rms2
07-18-2018, 12:44 AM
Can somebody tell me do I have any red hair variant ( I don't understand which letter must be first and which the second):

"rs1805008","16","89986144","CT"
"rs885479","16","89986154","GG"
"rs2228479","16","89985940","AG"
"rs1805006","16","89985918","CC"
"rs1110400","16","89986130","TT"
"rs1805005","16","89985844","GG"

You are positive for Val92Met (V92M), rs2228479. The risk allele for that one is A, and you have AG there.

You are also positive for Arg160Trp (R160W), rs1805008. The risk allele there is T, and you have CT.

The order doesn't really matter.

Nibelung
07-18-2018, 02:18 AM
rs1805008 TT

None of the rest carried at all, but no data for rs1805009 or rs34474212

ph2ter
07-18-2018, 06:17 AM
You are positive for Val92Met (V92M), rs2228479. The risk allele for that one is A, and you have AG there.

You are also positive for Arg160Trp (R160W), rs1805008. The risk allele there is T, and you have CT.

The order doesn't really matter.
Thank you!
So, I can join Red Hair Variants project at FTDNA (although I do not have red hair)?

evon
07-18-2018, 11:04 AM
As I recall, that map was constructed based on 23andMe's own stats, i.e., customer results, and not based on scientific studies.

Kasia Bryc - No, I'm Not Irish (https://blog.23andme.com/health-traits/no-im-not-irish/)

Besides, that is a map of the frequency of carriers of the risk allele (T) and not of people displaying the red haired phenotype. One can carry the risk allele and not show it, since red hair is a recessive trait.

From the comment section of that page:

Frequency of Red hair Carriers
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iF9hHSjfeUrHXGlYrWxkfdXJcRm5NQQU4GuNtXGrCtw/edit#gid=0

I will have to check my family members again now that I have tested so many with FTDNA.. I also checked and see LivingDNA tests for a few of them...

evon
07-18-2018, 12:00 PM
So I ran my mother, maternal grand uncle and siblings (all FTDNA tested), and it seems my sister and younger brother both carry rs1805005/Val60Leu TG and GT (so it is via my fathers side). I did some research on it and it seems common around the Mediterranean (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140114091714.htm). I am guessing it is also common in northern Europe?

Other than that all my siblings got a no-call on rs1805006/Asp84Glu (So it might be active too?). My younger brother and mother were red as children (strawberry blond), but they are both blond'ish now, both me and my older brother got/had red beards and I have some red hair strains in my hair and eyebrows etc.. Looking at my 23andme file I see that I am CT on rs1805007/Arg151Cys, which I guess explains the Red beard and red hair strains..

If I remember correctly rs1805007/Arg151Cys is common in western and northern Europe (also found in Mesolithic peoples in Sweden etc), so it might be a very ancient northern European variant...

I will check my other tested family members, but they are all 23andme files, one V3 and the rest V2..

It would be great with a overview of where the various variants are found in Europe, both present and ancient times..

rms2
07-19-2018, 12:16 PM
Thank you!
So, I can join Red Hair Variants project at FTDNA (although I do not have red hair)?

Yes, and thanks for joining!

rms2
07-19-2018, 12:22 PM
FTDNA's Red Hair Variants Project is an autosomal dna project (obviously), but one thing everyone should keep in mind is that if you join, you won't show up on the project's public web site unless you have y-dna or mtDNA results from FTDNA.

That is the way FTDNA projects are set up, for one thing, because FTDNA began with y-dna and mtDNA testing, and its first projects were all y-dna and/or mtDNA projects. I doubt anyone would want his or her autosomal data put on display anyway.

So, if you want to show up on the project's public web site in one of the red hair variant categories, you'll need y-dna or mtDNA results from FTDNA.

It's a good idea to get them anyway!

rms2
07-19-2018, 01:22 PM
Thank you!
So, I can join Red Hair Variants project at FTDNA (although I do not have red hair)?

Since you carry Arg160Trp, you might be interested in this Google spreadsheet of ancient Arg160Trp results. I don't have one for Val92Met and am not aware of any ancient results for it.

If there have been any additional ancient Arg160Trp results not on my spreadsheet, please let me know, and please let me know the source of the info. Thanks!

Ancient Arg160Trp Results (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15p7MiR1UIsy8ySAbTKX-ju07Zhx3cPIroEmJmedeFvw/edit?usp=sharing)

kingjohn
07-19-2018, 04:58 PM
Since you carry Arg160Trp, you might be interested in this Google spreadsheet of ancient Arg160Trp results. I don't have one for Val92Met and am not aware of any ancient results for it.

If there have been any additional ancient Arg160Trp results not on my spreadsheet, please let me know, and please let me know the source of the info. Thanks!

Ancient Arg160Trp Results (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15p7MiR1UIsy8ySAbTKX-ju07Zhx3cPIroEmJmedeFvw/edit?usp=sharing)

cool man
it is a celtic gene... ?
because when i think of ancient picts i think on red hair .....
yes from your list i see it existed also in the steppe of russia but today this gene is most common in scotland and ireland :)
best regards
adam

ph2ter
07-19-2018, 07:15 PM
FTDNA's Red Hair Variants Project is an autosomal dna project (obviously), but one thing everyone should keep in mind is that if you join, you won't show up on the project's public web site unless you have y-dna or mtDNA results from FTDNA.

That is the way FTDNA projects are set up, for one thing, because FTDNA began with y-dna and mtDNA testing, and its first projects were all y-dna and/or mtDNA projects. I doubt anyone would want his or her autosomal data put on display anyway.

So, if you want to show up on the project's public web site in one of the red hair variant categories, you'll need y-dna or mtDNA results from FTDNA.

It's a good idea to get them anyway!
I know my Y-DNA, as you can see bellow my avatar, but I made Y-DNA analysis at YSEQ. Unfortunately FTDNA does not accept it.
So, there is no way to show all people included in the project, but maybe with the empty values for Y-DNA?

Finn
07-19-2018, 07:20 PM
I have

rs1805008 CT

and many no calls in the family finder.

My dark blond hair has a reddish undertone, beard has some red hairs.

kingjohn
07-19-2018, 07:26 PM
I have

rs1805008 CT

and many no calls in the family finder.

My dark blond hair has a reddish undertone, beard has some red hairs.

24734

rms2
07-19-2018, 07:29 PM
I know my Y-DNA, as you can see bellow my avatar, but I made Y-DNA analysis at YSEQ. Unfortunately FTDNA does not accept it.
So, there is no way to show all people included in the project, but maybe with the empty values for Y-DNA?

Yeah. It's an FTDNA project, so people who don't have y-dna or mtDNA results with FTDNA don't show up publicly.

rms2
07-19-2018, 07:33 PM
cool man
it is a celtic gene... ?
because when i think of ancient picts i think on red hair .....
yes from your list i see it existed also in the steppe of russia but today this gene is most common in scotland and ireland :)
best regards
adam

Actually, Arg160Trp, at least based on 23andMe's map, is most common in Sweden and Lithuania.

24735

rms2
07-19-2018, 07:34 PM
Please delete: duplicate. Anthrogenica is glitching for me badly, with "Internal Server Error" messages.

Nibelung
07-19-2018, 07:36 PM
Checking my mother's 23andMeV4, she has CT for rs1805008, whereas her brother's V5 gives TT, but she was reddish-auburn when younger and he bright blond, and their sister super light strawberry blond. Can we trust the V5? My uncle also has FF but I can't read the file yet, and we have the ftDNA Y-DNA for him but I would have to ask him about joining things. Not to be rude, rms2. He would probably say no anyway. Nice project, though.

Finn
07-19-2018, 07:37 PM
24734

ok ok....:redface: king john, the hair of him is little bit to red....but the body and head could fit..:biggrin1:

rms2
07-19-2018, 07:46 PM
Checking my mother's 23andMeV4, she has CT for rs1805008, whereas her brother's V5 gives TT, but she was reddish-auburn when younger and he bright blond, and their sister super light strawberry blond. Can we trust the V5? My uncle also has FF but I can't read the file yet, and we have the ftDNA Y-DNA for him but I would have to ask him about joining things. Not to be rude, rms2. He would probably say no anyway. Nice project, though.

My youngest son has TT at rs1805008 (Arg160Trp). He was born with red hair, but it soon became strawberry blond, and he currently has sandy blond hair. His facial hair is very red, however, when he grows it out.

My youngest daughter, on the other hand, is heterozygous there (CT) and has always had red hair. It's going more auburn now that she is a teenager, but when she was little it was carrot top red.

Here's a photo of my youngest son's three kids, all of them redheads (obviously).

24738

Here's a fairly recent photo of my youngest daughter.

24739

ph2ter
07-19-2018, 08:20 PM
Actually, Arg160Trp, at least based on 23andMe's map, is most common in Sweden and Lithuania.

24735
Do you have such map for Val92Met?

BMK
07-19-2018, 08:51 PM
Mine.

https://i.imgur.com/TblA8re.jpg

BMK
07-19-2018, 09:35 PM
And also

"rs1805005","16","89985844","GT"


May I really start to believe in Celtic theory of my Y-DNA. :D

rms2
07-20-2018, 12:37 AM
Do you have such map for Val92Met?

No, unfortunately, I don't.

ph2ter
07-20-2018, 07:44 AM
I found that Val92Met probably originated from Neanderthals.


"We further discovered that all of the putative Neanderthal introgressive haplotypes carry the Val92Met variant, a loss-of-function variant in MC1R that is associated with multiple dermatological traits including skin color and photoaging. Frequency of this Neanderthal introgression is low in Europeans (∼5%), moderate in continental East Asians (∼30%), and high in Taiwanese aborigines (60–70%). "

https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msu180

rms2
07-20-2018, 11:30 AM
I found that Val92Met probably originated from Neanderthals.


"We further discovered that all of the putative Neanderthal introgressive haplotypes carry the Val92Met variant, a loss-of-function variant in MC1R that is associated with multiple dermatological traits including skin color and photoaging. Frequency of this Neanderthal introgression is low in Europeans (∼5%), moderate in continental East Asians (∼30%), and high in Taiwanese aborigines (60–70%). "

https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msu180

Thanks! Very interesting!

rms2
07-20-2018, 11:53 AM
Apparently an initial study found an increased risk of Parkinson's Disease associated with the red hair variant Arg160Trp, but a subsequent study, Is the MC1R variant p.R160W associated with Parkinson’s? (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4738170/), found no such increased risk.

I carry Arg160Trp, as did my father (recently passed away at almost 88 years old), and as does my youngest son and my youngest daughter (don't know about my other kids - none of them has had autosomal dna testing).



Our analysis, using logistic regression (correcting for gender and population structure), did not identify a significant association between p.R160W and PD (OR=1.01, 0.90–1.13) (Table 1).

My dad suffered from Parkinson's acquired in old age, but it didn't show up until just a few years before he passed away and was pretty well controlled by medication. He never experienced the dementia sometimes associated with Parkinson's.

Finn
07-22-2018, 12:55 PM
From SNPedia:

rs1805008, known as Arg160Trp or R160W, is one of several SNPs in the MC1R gene associated with red hair color (redheads), in this case in an Irish population [PMID 9665397] although this has also been reported in Icelandic and Dutch populations [PMID 18488028].

So Ireland, Iceland and Dutch.....

Finn
07-22-2018, 01:34 PM
@rms2 at least less chance for vitiligo:
https://www.academia.edu/19452686/The_Arg160Trp_Allele_of_Melanocortin-1_Receptor_Gene_Might_Protect_Against_Vitiligo

lukaszM
07-22-2018, 01:55 PM
My youngest son has TT at rs1805008 (Arg160Trp). He was born with red hair, but it soon became strawberry blond, and he currently has sandy blond hair. His facial hair is very red, however, when he grows it out.

My youngest daughter, on the other hand, is heterozygous there (CT) and has always had red hair. It's going more auburn now that she is a teenager, but when she was little it was carrot top red.

Here's a photo of my youngest son's three kids, all of them redheads (obviously).

24738


In Poland I practically don't see such red shade. In my primary school there was one girl with similar hair out of few hundreds.

rms2
07-22-2018, 02:05 PM
In Poland I practically don't see such red shade. In my primary school there was one girl with similar hair out of few hundreds.

Red hair is not super common in the USA either. Of course, this is anecdotal, but I saw a lot of redheads in both Ireland and Wales, more than I was used to seeing.

Here is BritainsDNA's map of red hair carriers (before that company ceased to be), which was based on customer stats from its Redhead test.

24807

kingjohn
07-22-2018, 03:29 PM
I found that Val92Met probably originated from Neanderthals.


"We further discovered that all of the putative Neanderthal introgressive haplotypes carry the Val92Met variant, a loss-of-function variant in MC1R that is associated with multiple dermatological traits including skin color and photoaging. Frequency of this Neanderthal introgression is low in Europeans (∼5%), moderate in continental East Asians (∼30%), and high in Taiwanese aborigines (60–70%). "

https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msu180

i also carry the derived allele for val92 and also for rs1805005
i am not sure it is of neaderthal origin but it might be brought to dalmatia by slavic tribes because in europe it is not common .....
and mainly found in the eastern part of europe ..... it is more of asian gene common in taiwan .....
i dont have the red hair gene rs1805008 though which rms2 and finn and other members here have :)

Eihwaz
07-22-2018, 03:50 PM
I have rs1805007, (Arg151Cys) rs1805005, (Val60Leu) and I also have a C;G in rs12931267. You've all seen the results of this, with my orange beard and auburn-tinted light brown hair.

My mother has everything that I have (except for Val60Leu) as well as rs1805008 (Arg160Trp) - she has abundant freckles on every part of her skin and had red hair before it greyed.

I get the Val60Leu from my 100% Ashkenazi father, who actually has the rarest variant of it (T;T).

ph2ter
07-22-2018, 04:16 PM
i also carry the derived allele for val92 and also for rs1805005
i am not sure it is of neaderthal origin but it might be brought to dalmatia by slavic tribes because in europe it is not common .....
and mainly found in the eastern part of europe ..... it is more of asian gene common in taiwan .....
i dont have the red hair gene rs1805008 though which rms2 and finn and other members here have :)
My father and I have rs1805008 (CT) Arg160Trp, but additionally I have rs2228479 (AG) Val92Met and he has rs1805005 (GT) Val60Leu.
So I must have inherited Val92Met from my mother.
Red hair people are very rare in Croatia, but they do exist in certain percentage. Red beard or partially red beard are much more common.

rms2
07-22-2018, 05:32 PM
My father and I have rs1805008 (CT) Arg160Trp, but additionally I have rs2228479 (AG) Val92Met and he has rs1805005 (GT) Val60Leu.
So I must have inherited Val92Met from my mother.
Red hair people are very rare in Croatia, but they do exist in certain percentage. Red beard or partially red beard are much more common.

That's something I see a lot, and it was true of me, too, before my moustache and beard went white. Another thing is the presence of what is known as "red highlights" in one's head hair. When I was younger I was told I had red highlights in my hair, which were especially visible in the sunlight. From what I have seen of it in other people, it's the presence of just enough red hair to be detectable in the sunlight but not enough to cause one to be regarded as a redhead.

evon
07-22-2018, 05:32 PM
I made a little chart for our mutations:
http://i66.tinypic.com/2rn7d03.jpg

Finn
07-22-2018, 05:43 PM
Eupedia has a quite long contribution about red hair.

Quote:

Nowadays, the frequency of red hair among Germanic people is highest in the Netherlands, Belgium, north-western Germany and Jutland, i.e. where the percentage of R1b is the highest, and presumably the first region to be settled by R1b, before blending with the blond-haired R1a and I1 people from Scandinavia and re-expanding south to Germany during the Iron Age, with a considerably lower percentage of R1b and red-hair alleles. Red-haired is therefore most associated with the continental West Germanic peoples, and least with Scandinavians and Germanic tribes that originated in Sweden, like the Goths and the Vandals. This also explains why the Anglo-Saxon settlements on southern England have a higher frequency of redheads than the Scandinavian settlements of northeast England.

https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml

rms2
07-22-2018, 05:55 PM
That doesn't make sense to me, because nowadays red hair in Britain is least frequent in England, especially in the southeast, and increases in frequency as one moves north and west.

Finn
07-22-2018, 06:30 PM
If Maciamo got a point that in German population in the West-Germanic population the red haired ones are more spread than in North or East Germanic populations what would explain this higher spread? Any thoughts about that?

Finn
07-22-2018, 06:38 PM
23 and me has another story than Eupedia:


A closer look at the three most common red hair variants among 23andMe customers shows that red hair allele frequency in Europe does correlate with distance from the equator. The variant that is most common (and is involved in a third of red hair among 23andMe customers) is R151C. Unsurprisingly, this variant is most common in individuals whose grandparents were born in Ireland and in the UK.

Over 50 percent of 23andMe redheads carry at least one copy of this variant. Are you one of them?

The variant D294H is also most frequent in Ireland, but overall it is less prevalent, and found in a limited range: mostly Ireland, the UK, and France, Switzerland, and Belgium.

Unlike the first two, the variant that I carry, R160W, isn’t most common in Ireland. Instead, it is found at its highest frequencies in Sweden and Lithuania, as well as other parts of Scandinavia, Central and Eastern Europe.

So what do these maps of variants tell us about why red hair might have come to be?

Well, there does seem to be a correlation between where the variants lie – each variant is most frequent above the 35th parallel, which suggests that there may really be a relaxed selective constraint on MC1R function this far north of the equator.


https://www.mupload.nl/img/mtk3t7f8sikd.png

JMcB
07-22-2018, 07:38 PM
That's something I see a lot, and it was true of me, too, before my moustache and beard went white. Another thing is the presence of what is known as "red highlights" in one's head hair. When I was younger I was told I had red highlights in my hair, which were especially visible in the sunlight. From what I have seen of it in other people, it's the presence of just enough red hair to be detectable in the sunlight but not enough to cause one to be regarded as a redhead.

Yes, that’s the way things were with me, too. When I was young, women used to tell me they would love to have my hair because of the red highlights, which really showed up in the sunlight. It was the same with my beard, mostly it looked reddish brown but when I went into the sun the red would shine through. No one considered me a redhead but the red was obviously there. My two variants are (rs1805007 Arg151Cys & rs1805005 Val60Leu).

kingjohn
07-22-2018, 07:51 PM
https://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/SiteTable1A_working.asp?siteuid=SI663688L

%
you can see that it is 15% in chuvash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuvashia and 11% in irish and 10% in russians from vologda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vologda_Oblast
and higher % in mongolid groups ......
i think finnic tribes could brought it or steppe groups as it is found in 11% in ireland

99% in poles ??????/ :\

Eihwaz
07-22-2018, 07:51 PM
Yes, that’s the way things were with me, too. When I was young, women used to tell me they would love to have my hair because of the red highlights, which really showed up in the sunlight. It was the same with my beard, mostly it looked reddish brown but when I went into the sun the red would shine through. No one considered me a redhead but the red was obviously there. My two variants are (Arg151Cys & Val60Leu).

It's kinda the opposite for me in some ways. I have coppery light brown hair on my head, but am still considered a "ginger" or "redhead" by numerous people because my beard's color seems to overpower everything else and inform their eyes when looking at my hair.

rms2
07-22-2018, 07:54 PM
I've posted this ugly picture in this thread before, but here I am at age 18 (Sep 1973), very early in the morning, posing for a university ID photo. I wasn't stoned; I was just tired. The little rectangular hole in the photo is reminiscent of the old punch-card era that was the latest thing when I first started at university.

24812

Anyone can see that back then, in the good old days, my moustache was pretty much 100% red.

rms2
07-22-2018, 07:55 PM
Please delete: duplicate post. I doubt anyone wants to look at me twice.

Nibelung
07-22-2018, 07:57 PM
With just enough sunlight to quickly bleach my thick medium brown hair, mine can still go red if the colour's there. Otherwise it can just continue to lighten until essentially blondish. In either case I have to keep it short and only washed or rinsed in cool water, max lukewarm on occasion. And when my "red" is there it's just as likely to appear pink or purple, no kidding, instead of sparkling copper. Don't know why.

Finn
07-22-2018, 07:58 PM
Just puzzling:

Sam has made this overview:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iF9hHSjfeUrHXGlYrWxkfdXJcRm5NQQU4GuNtXGrCtw/edit#gid=0

Seems like:
* R151C peaks in Ireland and in the UK is also in Norway and Iceland
* D294H peaks mostly Ireland, the UK, and France, Switzerland, and Belgium.
* R160W peaking in Netherlands, Norway, Iceland, Poland, Estland.

Simple mind : first two are Celtic like, second one something with HG? Or????

rms2
07-22-2018, 08:07 PM
Except R160W has a proclivity for Indo-Europeans:

Ancient R160W (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15p7MiR1UIsy8ySAbTKX-ju07Zhx3cPIroEmJmedeFvw/edit?usp=sharing)

ph2ter
07-22-2018, 09:18 PM
https://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/SiteTable1A_working.asp?siteuid=SI663688L

%
you can see that it is 15% in chuvash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuvashia and 11% in irish and 10% in russians from vologda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vologda_Oblast
and higher % in mongolid groups ......
i think finnic tribes could brought it or steppe groups as it is found in 11% in ireland

99% in poles ??????/ :\
Thanks for the site https://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/index.asp
It has frequencies for many alleles, either homozygous or heterozygous.
For example expected heterozygosities for rs1805005: https://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/hetgraph.asp?siteuid=SI663686J&cutoff=0.25
rs1805008: https://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/hetgraph.asp?siteuid=SI663693H&cutoff=0.25 (Only for Poles and Slovenes)
and rs2228479: https://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/hetgraph.asp?siteuid=SI663688L&cutoff=0.25

This Poles percentage of 0.99 looks like some error.

lukaszM
07-22-2018, 09:30 PM
I've posted this ugly picture in this thread before, but here I am at age 18 (Sep 1973), very early in the morning, posing for a university ID photo. I wasn't stoned; I was just tired. The little rectangular hole in the photo is reminiscent of the old punch-card era that was the latest thing when I first started at university.

24812

Anyone can see that back then, in the good old days, my moustache was pretty much 100% red.

You reminds me someone famous. I don't remember who:)

lukaszM
07-22-2018, 09:33 PM
https://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/SiteTable1A_working.asp?siteuid=SI663688L


99% in poles ??????/ :\

Bullshit of course. Should be 0.09 at least.

Geborgenheit
07-22-2018, 09:39 PM
Well, guess what, rs2228479 AG. I guess it is common among Slavs.

kingjohn
07-22-2018, 09:55 PM
Well, guess what, rs2228479 AG. I guess it is common among Slavs.

what is interesting that it is rare in Europe and in hungary {land of the magyars{fino-ugaric tribes from volga ural} it is 8%
some of Magyars probably caried it as we know it is more common in chuvash and vologda and other parts of north russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkhangelsk_Oblast
all those areas were fino -ugarian tribes territory before slavs took it ......

Geborgenheit
07-22-2018, 10:18 PM
what is interesting that it is rare in Europe and in hungary {land of the magyars{fino-ugaric tribes from volga ural} it is 8%
some of Magyars probably caried it as we know it is more common in chuvash and vologda and other parts of north russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkhangelsk_Oblast
all those areas were fino -ugarian tribes territory before slavs took it ......

Hm... Personally, I have mentioned Slavs only because I am very Slavic, for the better of for the worse. I do not have any Finno-Ugric ancestry as far as I know.

P.S. There has been a forumer from Britain mentioning having rs2228479 in this thread.

kingjohn
07-22-2018, 10:43 PM
I need to look at my parents results if my mom have it than it might have been spread by Slavs... (my mother is half Bulgarian my grand mother was blond blue eyed so heavily SLAVIC in look)

Geborgenheit
07-22-2018, 10:56 PM
I have been to Bulgaria many times and I believe that Bulgarians are very mixed people. Turks, Greeks, Armenians and Jews have been significant minorities there.

kingjohn
07-23-2018, 02:56 AM
so how does my Bulgarian matches in family finder score 0% Jewish.
Bulgarians hate the Turks the chance they mixed with them is low
and Bulgarians are a mixed of the mighty thracians+slavs (for good and for worse)

P.s
I now checked my parents my mother only carry rs1805005 and my father is the one who carry rs2228479 so I got the allele from him 😃 and from my mom I got rs1805005 derived allele 😄

evon
10-18-2018, 01:17 PM
My wife gave birth to a little girl at the end of September, she was born with strawberry blond hair and dark grey eyes, but it is likely that by the time she is around 6, she will have either brown or black hair and brown or blue eyes.. I was also blond when I was a child, I think the same was true for my wife, who has black hair and brown eyes now.. My eyes might have been grey as a child, but they are light blue now... It would be funny if she stays red, only time will tell though... I dont think we will DNA test her, but if we decide to, I will post her Red hair SNP's here..

Finn
10-18-2018, 04:11 PM
My wife gave birth to a little girl at the end of September, she was born with strawberry blond hair and dark grey eyes, but it is likely that by the time she is around 6, she will have either brown or black hair and brown or blue eyes.. I was also blond when I was a child, I think the same was true for my wife, who has black hair and brown eyes now.. My eyes might have been grey as a child, but they are light blue now... It would be funny if she stays red, only time will tell though... I dont think we will DNA test her, but if we decide to, I will post her Red hair SNP's here..

Congrats Evon! We have a little girl from medio april....grey eyes that now has a kind of grey-green-hazel kind of shimmer. No red hair yet (it's now blond).

evon
10-18-2018, 05:31 PM
Congrats Evon! We have a little girl from medio april....grey eyes that now has a kind of grey-green-hazel kind of shimmer. No red hair yet (it's now blond).

Gefeliciteerd! What eye and hair color does you and your partner have?

Jessie
10-18-2018, 11:06 PM
My wife gave birth to a little girl at the end of September, she was born with strawberry blond hair and dark grey eyes, but it is likely that by the time she is around 6, she will have either brown or black hair and brown or blue eyes.. I was also blond when I was a child, I think the same was true for my wife, who has black hair and brown eyes now.. My eyes might have been grey as a child, but they are light blue now... It would be funny if she stays red, only time will tell though... I dont think we will DNA test her, but if we decide to, I will post her Red hair SNP's here..

Congratulations to yourself and wife Evon. It is interesting how much a baby can change. My daughter had brilliant blue eyes up until about 3 when they changed to a more mixed eye colour which makes her eyes look green now. I hope you aren't having too many sleepless nights. :)

Finn
11-09-2018, 06:57 PM
Late reaction.....(because of the site time out). My partner has hazel eyes too and I have chestnut brow yes (but recessive genes for light yes).

kiddo:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/fcq75t0r82s1.jpg

rms2
12-20-2018, 12:09 AM
My oldest son just got his Family Finder results. The raw data reveal that he carries the Arg160Trp red hair variant, just as I do and my father did. T is the risk allele, and my oldest boy is CT there (rs1805008), like my father and me.

However, his untested mother (my ex) must carry that variant, as well, since my youngest son (his brother) has TT at Arg160Trp and was a carrot top redhead at birth. His hair later became strawberry blond. My oldest boy has dark brown hair.

So, did my oldest boy get his T at Arg160Trp from me or from his mom?

JonikW
12-20-2018, 12:29 AM
If you join the project, please remember to send me an email telling me which variant(s) you carry and how you know you carry it or them; otherwise, I can't tell.

If you have red hair, you will still need some autosomal test results to know which variant(s) you carry.

Thanks for this. Sent a request to join and an email with SNP data. My Welsh grandfather had auburn hair when young, and my beard is red (admittedly flecked with grey now).

rms2
12-20-2018, 12:40 AM
Thanks for this. Sent a request to join and an email with SNP data. My Welsh grandfather had auburn hair when young, and my beard is red (admittedly flecked with grey now).

Thanks for joining!

ADW_1981
12-20-2018, 02:08 AM
Thanks for this. Sent a request to join and an email with SNP data. My Welsh grandfather had auburn hair when young, and my beard is red (admittedly flecked with grey now).

I'm in the same boat, but there is a certain savagery to it. I wound up shaving it, because it added a good 10 years to my actual age.

rms2
12-22-2018, 03:43 PM
I'm in the same boat, but there is a certain savagery to it. I wound up shaving it, because it added a good 10 years to my actual age.

My facial hair had a lot of red in it, but, as the song says, that was yesterday and yesterday's gone.

Sigh . . .

My beard has gone almost completely St. Nicholas.

J Man
12-22-2018, 04:09 PM
Late reaction.....(because of the site time out). My partner has hazel eyes too and I have chestnut brow yes (but recessive genes for light yes).

kiddo:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/fcq75t0r82s1.jpg

My first son's eyes are almost exactly the same colour as your little one's. :)

JMcB
12-22-2018, 05:25 PM
My facial hair had a lot of red in it, but, as the song says, that was yesterday and yesterday's gone.

Sigh . . .

My beard has gone almost completely St. Nicholas.

Same here! Now it’s as white as snow.

Volat
12-22-2018, 05:56 PM
rs1805008 C/T
rs885479 G/G
rs2228479 G/G
rs1805006 C/C
rs1110400 T/T
rs1805005 G/G

---


rs11547464 G/G
rs1805007 C/T
rs34474212 T/T

So, I have R160W (rs1805008) and R151C (rs1805007) for red hair?

rms2
12-22-2018, 05:59 PM
rs1805008 C/T
rs885479 G/G
rs2228479 G/G
rs1805006 C/C
rs1110400 T/T
rs1805005 G/G

---


rs11547464 G/G
rs1805007 C/T
rs34474212 T/T

So, I have R160W (rs1805008) and R151C (rs1805007) for red hair?

Evidently. If you are an FTDNA customer and so inclined, you can join the Red Hair Variants Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/red-hair-variants/about).

Since FTDNA projects are based on y-dna or mtDNA results, you will need either y-dna or mtDNA test results to show up on our project web site.

Volat
12-22-2018, 06:03 PM
rs1805008: https://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/hetgraph.asp?siteuid=SI663693H&cutoff=0.25 (Only for Poles and Slovenes).

I have this variant too. I am neither Pole nor Slovenes. It appears the variant is common in east and central Europeans.

Volat
12-22-2018, 06:04 PM
Evidently. If you are an FTDNA customer and so inclined, you can join the Red Hair Variants Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/red-hair-variants/about).

Since FTDNA projects are based on y-dna or mtDNA results, you will need either y-dna or mtDNA test results to show up on our project web site.

I have account at 23andme.

rms2
12-22-2018, 06:05 PM
I have account at 23andme.

Please consider testing with FTDNA. Their Holiday Sale is on right now, and prices are much reduced.

rms2
12-22-2018, 06:07 PM
Here is a distribution map for Arg160Trp/R160W/rs1805008 based on 23andMe's customer database.

27815

Here's a similar map for R151C.

27816

Volat
12-22-2018, 06:13 PM
Udmurts have a higher frequency of red hair. Only Irish and Scots can rival them. Unlike Irish Udmurts have elevated Siberian admixture in their genome. But not all of them.

Red Hair festival in Udmurt Republic : https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29950844

Udmurts . Some maybe Russian.

http://izhlife.ru/uploads/posts/2014-09/x1410850269_1-ya-foto.jpg.pagespeed.ic._wW1MgF3uT.jpg

Volat
12-22-2018, 06:21 PM
Udmurts with Mongoloid features


http://www.itogi.ru/7-days/img/641/I-39-PARADOX-udmurt-f09_640.jpg

rms2
12-22-2018, 06:22 PM
Here's a Google spreadsheet of ancient Arg160Trp results. There may be some more ancient samples that I am unaware of that carried it. These are just the ones I know about.

Ancient Carriers of Arg160Trp (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15p7MiR1UIsy8ySAbTKX-ju07Zhx3cPIroEmJmedeFvw/edit?usp=sharing)

rms2
12-22-2018, 06:40 PM
Here's a Google spreadsheet of ancient Arg160Trp results. There may be some more ancient samples that I am unaware of that carried it. These are just the ones I know about.

Ancient Carriers of Arg160Trp (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15p7MiR1UIsy8ySAbTKX-ju07Zhx3cPIroEmJmedeFvw/edit?usp=sharing)

Unless they have turned up some Arg160Trp in the Neolithic farmers of Old Europe or in European Mesolithic hunter gatherers, it looks to me, at least preliminarily, like Arg160Trp arrived in central Europe with Yamnaya and was spread farther west by their descendants.

Jessie
12-23-2018, 10:04 AM
Here is a distribution map for Arg160Trp/R160W/rs1805008 based on 23andMe's customer database.

27815

Here's a similar map for R151C.

27816

I'm not sure how accurate 23andMe is in stating that rs1805008 is more common in Eastern Europe and not so common in Ireland. It's odd that myself and all my family tested have this type and I read another report stating it was common in Ireland.

rms2
12-23-2018, 12:23 PM
I'm not sure how accurate 23andMe is in stating that rs1805008 is more common in Eastern Europe and not so common in Ireland. It's odd that myself and all my family tested have this type and I read another report stating it was common in Ireland.

That map was based on their customer database, not on any scientific papers, but it was all I could find on the distribution of Arg160Trp.

Still, since 23andMe is an American company, there must be something to it, since it's likely that 23andMe clientele of British and Irish descent vastly outnumber its clientele of Eastern European descent.

But I'm not sure what numbers we're talking about.

rms2
12-24-2018, 09:08 PM
Merry Christmas and a Happy 2019!

27913

rms2
12-29-2018, 12:11 AM
The autosomal subforum is a curious thing. Threads come and go with dizzying rapidity, and the stuff is always about personal results and how much of this or that nationality one has or how much one resembles this or that ancient people. Something about it reminds me of astrology.

It won't be long before this thread is buried back on the fourth or fifth page again.

rms2
12-29-2018, 12:12 AM
The autosomal subforum is a curious thing. Threads come and go with dizzying rapidity, and the stuff is always about personal results and how much of this or that nationality one has or how much one resembles this or that ancient people. Something about it reminds me of astrology.

It won't be long before this thread is buried back on the fourth or fifth page again.

Whoa! As I posted that last post it was beaten into obscurity by someone else's post on another thread! How apropos!

ph2ter
12-29-2018, 12:16 AM
You have to be very active to keep on top :)

rms2
12-29-2018, 12:17 AM
You have to be very active to keep on top :)

I just wait for some more red hair news, pull this thread back out from whatever deep page it's buried on, blow the dust off it, and bump it up.

rms2
10-03-2019, 11:08 PM
I recently ordered 23andMe's ancestry test and just got my results on 30 September 2019.

That makes the fourth confirmation that I am a carrier of the red hair variant Arg160Trp.



Genes: MC1R; Marker (SNP): rs1805008; Genomic Position: 8998614; Variants: C or T;
Your Genotype: C / T


No big surprise, but now I have gotten that same result from BritainsDNA, FTDNA, Ancestry, and 23andMe.

That ought to settle it, I guess. B)

Finn
10-04-2019, 08:15 AM
I recently ordered 23andMe's ancestry test and just got my results on 30 September 2019.

That makes the fourth confirmation that I am a carrier of the red hair variant Arg160Trp.



No big surprise, but now I have gotten that same result from BritainsDNA, FTDNA, Ancestry, and 23andMe.

That ought to settle it, I guess. B)

Four times confirmed still not found a single red hair? :noidea:....mmmm ROFLOL ;)

Adamm
10-04-2019, 12:22 PM
I just checked out, I'm a carrier of rs1805008 which maybe can explain why I had red hair as a kid? How do I determine the risk allele?

Looks like I'm not a carrier because it doesn't give me a T for the risk allele but rather 'CC'. (what does that even mean?)

rms2
10-04-2019, 11:25 PM
I just checked out, I'm a carrier of rs1805008 which maybe can explain why I had red hair as a kid? How do I determine the risk allele?

Looks like I'm not a carrier because it doesn't give me a T for the risk allele but rather 'CC'. (what does that even mean?)

The risk allele is the one that makes you a carrier.

Check your data for the other variants (and this is not an exhaustive list, there are more).

33674

rms2
10-04-2019, 11:29 PM
Four times confirmed still not found a single red hair? :noidea:....mmmm ROFLOL ;)

Not so. I had plenty of red hairs when I was younger (now they're all white). I was just barely 18 in the photo below.

33675

You might try reading a thread before you post something silly and start to yuck it up.

Adamm
10-05-2019, 03:15 AM
The risk allele is the one that makes you a carrier.

Check your data for the other variants (and this not an exhaustive list, there are more).

33674


Is there more than this list? I have most variants but I don't match the risk allele, but maybe my hair was more 'brown' than red and maybe that's why I don't carry it?

(My mother would say it was reddish/brownish)

https://i.imgur.com/tOA7z7c.jpg

Finn
10-05-2019, 09:30 AM
Not so. I had plenty of red hairs when I was younger (now they're all white). I was just barely 18 in the photo below.

33675

You might try reading a thread before you post something silly and start to yuck it up.

Just a joke rms2, because it looks like an overdone confirmation....that's why a reacted witty.

Of course you have a reddish influence here.

By the way I have that gene too although my reddish flame is much lower. Until my hairdresser insisted it was there (a time ago in my twenties). Confirmed when I created a stubble beard with a more clear visible red accent (also in your case the moustache is most clearly reddish). But through the years my initial very light gold blond hair has darkened...to dark gold blond. Now my little kid has the same a very slight auburn accent.

Stays fascinating.

I aks myself could a gold blond hair also been an effect of those genes or are there other genes @work?

Finn
10-05-2019, 09:37 AM
I found this:

More pheomelanin creates a more golden or strawberry blonde color, and more eumelanin creates an ash or sandy blonde color.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_hair_color

So an amount of pheomelanin creates gold blond....
And when it further enhances we get strawberry blond....

So the same genes @work?


Is it certain that all blonds have higher levels of phoemelanin than eumelanin? on this site[2] they say "Plain blonde hair is predominantly eumelanin while richer honey blonde hair has relatively more of the yellow red pheomelanin present"

According to that site in principle all kinds of blond have more pheomelanin, but only in case of colourfull blond (goldblond and orangeblond) this kind oif pigment is not coverted into eumelanin by the gene MC1R.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ABlond/Archive_2

rms2
10-05-2019, 12:27 PM
Is there more than this list? I have most variants but I don't match the risk allele, but maybe my hair was more 'brown' than red and maybe that's why I don't carry it?

(My mother would say it was reddish/brownish)

https://i.imgur.com/tOA7z7c.jpg

There are more red hair variants. The ones on that list are just the most common.

If you're the little boy in that photo, you definitely had red hair.

rms2
10-05-2019, 12:30 PM
. . .

I aks myself could a gold blond hair also been an effect of those genes or are there other genes @work?

My youngest son has two copies of Arg160Trp. He was born a redhead, but his hair later went to strawberry blond and stayed that way. His beard, when he grows it out, is red.

My oldest boy, like me and my dad, has but one copy of Arg160Trp.

Adamm
10-05-2019, 02:28 PM
There are more red hair variants. The ones on that list are just the most common.

If you're the little boy in that photo, you definitely had red hair.


Yes that's me with my father as kid.

But do you know any more more variants out of that list that I could check?

rms2
10-05-2019, 08:43 PM
Yes that's me with my father as kid.

But do you know any more more variants out of that list that I could check?

I think if you look back through this thread, you may find some listed. A few years ago I went through the 1000 Genomes Project and found a bunch of them. I think I mentioned some of them in this thread here and there.

You can also Google red hair variants and see what pops up.

rms2
10-05-2019, 08:46 PM
Here's my Arg160Trp result from 23andMe's raw data chromosome browser. The risk allele is T. The ref SNP is rs1805008.

33693

JMcB
10-05-2019, 09:42 PM
I’m already in the Project but to refresh my memory I decided to double check. These are the two I have from your earlier list of 10.

rs1805007 Arg151Cys C / T

rs1805005 Val60Leu G / T

Out of curiosity, I’m going to check the thread to see if anything else shows up on the longer list.

Finn
04-28-2020, 07:57 PM
Arg160 seems to have a relationship with increased melanoma but obviously it protects against vitiligo:


Extensively reviewed (6), the Arg160Trp allele is referred to as a strong red hair color (RHC) allele (an allele associated with red hair and fair skin). The affected amino acid is situated in the second intracellular loop of the MSHR protein (23), and it is a component of a protein kinase C (PKC) target sequence composed of four amino acids, suggesting its role in down- stream signaling events. This hypothesis is supported by the fact that coupling studies revealed a remarkably decreased ability to stimulate cAMP production upon agonist binding in cells transfected with the mutated form of the receptor (9). It remains unknown whether the higher frequency of this allele in fair-skinned healthy controls confers protection against vitiligo by altering signal transduction events. Another possible explanation for the protective role of this allele is related to the autoimmune nature of vitiligo. As demonstrated by us with computer-assisted prediction, the epitope resulting from this mutation may have a lower antigenicity potential and, thus, may protect healthy individuals against autoimmune processes suggested in vitiligo.

https://www.academia.edu/19452686/The_Arg160Trp_Allele_of_Melanocortin-1_Receptor_Gene_Might_Protect_Against_Vitiligo?ema il_work_card=title

rms2
05-30-2020, 03:51 AM
My two grandsons, the sons of my youngest son, just got their FTDNA Family Finder test results, and, besides matching all the best people, they both carry two copies of the red hair variant Arg160Trp (R160W), which is the one I carry and my dad carried. My son has two copies, as well, but obviously he only gave down one copy, so they got the other one from their mother, who is also a redhead. So, now I know which variant is responsible for her ginger locks.

Their sister, my granddaughter, is also a redhead, but apparently she didn't want a Family Finder test.