PDA

View Full Version : L21 in Spain



sweuro
03-12-2015, 01:55 AM
Southwestern Gipuzkoa, n = 13/57 = 22.81%
Roncal Valley, Navarra: n = 11/53 = 20.8 %
Alaba, n = 11/51 = 21.57%
Guipuzkoa, n = 9/47 = 19.15%
Central/Western Navarra, n = 9/60 = 15.0%
Bizkaia, Basque Country, n = 7/57 = 12.28%
La Rioja, n = 6/54 = 11.11 %
Western Bizkaia , n = 3/19 = 10.53%
Northwestern Navarra, n = 5/51 = 9.80%
Catalonia-Valencia-Balears : n =140 6.1%

Franc
06-15-2015, 10:40 AM
Hola,con todo mi respeto creo que los porcentajes que ofreces no contemplan la realidad de L21 en España, no se que datos manejas para llegar a esa conclusión, basandome en los datos ofrecidos por el grupo L-21 en FTDNA, del que formo parte, no veo reflejada mi comunidad de origen en dicha exposición y puedo decir lo mismo de otros miembros de otras comunidades a los que no has incluido en tus porcentajes, si estoy equivocado te agradeceria una aclaración, de lo contrario tu aportación carece de interes en este foro, un saludo.

sweuro
06-15-2015, 11:05 AM
Carecerá de interés para ti, pues está sacado de el estudio de Martinez-Cruz et al. 2012 , aquí lo tienes, dale a la tabla xls :

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/12/molbev.mss091/suppl/DC1

Franc
06-15-2015, 05:59 PM
Hola, evidentemente ese estudio que amablemente me indicas carece de interes para mi pues no soy vasco,navarro,riojano,catalan,balear, o valenciano, lo que si soy es español y L21 según un prestigioso laboratorio tu abres este hilo con el titulo de" L21 en España", asi que como me interesa la propuesta lo abro y me encuentro con la lista que has colocado y no has acompañado de ningún comentario, por que ademas de parca en información, esta lista carece de interes si no la acompañas de algúna idea o apreciacion, por lo tanto la información de salida es sesgada,parcial y forma parte de un estudio muy concreto sobre el tema de los que yo tambien puedo indicarte unos cuantos si lo deseas, por lo demas te felicito sinceramente por tu interes al participar en este foro y te envío otro cordial saludo.

sweuro
06-15-2015, 06:24 PM
Bueno en el foro entra mucha gente que sí les puede interesar. En cuanto al tema en cuestión, no pongo otras partes de España porque ni las tengo, ni se han analizado a fondo sobre ello (subclados más allá del P312) , y , además que seguramente los porcentages para el L-21 son bastante más bajos que en las zonas aquí expuestas, aunque no descarto alguna que otra sorpresa. Pues el interés de este estudio reside en que hasta ahora se creía que el L21 se encontraba prácticamente solo en Islas Británicas y en el Oeste de Francia, sin embargo ya ves que en zonas del Norte de España hay muy altas concentraciones, un saludo.

rms2
06-15-2015, 06:31 PM
There is a Spanish language forum here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?170-Spanish) just aching for its first thread.

Wish I could read Spanish and understand it, but I can't.

Gray Fox
06-15-2015, 06:32 PM
Guys, we have a Spanish language section. Feel free to discuss in said language there. The forum's de facto language is English :)

3.6 The primary language spoken on Anthrogenica is English. Posts written in languages other than English will be restricted to the appropriate dedicated subfora catering to those languages.

Franc
06-16-2015, 09:59 AM
SORRY IT'S MY FAULT , I just wanted to give some life to this thread nonsense , you know the passion blinds us .....

Dubhthach
06-16-2015, 10:26 AM
Well it's good to see a thread about L21 in Spain, I'll have to look at relevant link above, some fairly descent amount of L21 in some of those samples. In ideal world we'd be looking at sample sizes of at least 100 to rule out sampling bias etc.

giuseppe rossi
06-16-2015, 10:28 AM
Eupedia's map is completely crap, since outside of Basque areas, R-L21 is less than 5%.

Maciamo has clearly an agenda.

ArmandoR1b
06-16-2015, 11:23 AM
Franc, those regions are in in Spain. Don't shove politics into a forum about DNA.

ArmandoR1b
06-16-2015, 11:26 AM
Well it's good to see a thread about L21 in Spain, I'll have to look at relevant link above, some fairly descent amount of L21 in some of those samples. In ideal world we'd be looking at sample sizes of at least 100 to rule out sampling bias etc.

100 per provincia in Spain would be really nice especially if they included DF27, Z195 and Z196.

Franc
06-16-2015, 07:01 PM
I have definitely returned this thread to life, now I'm a really interesting question to pose¿ Who brought L21 to the Iberian Peninsula? it is assumed that most of R1b are here DF27 and L21 is a minority, I have some possible candidates; 1- Some of the Celto-Germanic tribes Hallstatt periods A, B, or C,They are proven archaeologically two entries in the Iberian peninsula one in the ninth century bc and another in the seventh century B.C., 2-Celto-Belgian tribes? who came and settled in the Iberian Peninsula in the sixth century bc giving rise to Celtiberians substrate, 3-other? ....

Franc
06-16-2015, 07:10 PM
I have not talked about politics, you do not know me and you're not one to judge, just look at my answers and tell me where there is any question that bothers you, if you do not know Spanish can take some lessons, I say this with all due respect ...

sweuro
06-16-2015, 07:14 PM
I have definitely returned this thread to life, now I'm a really interesting question to pose¿ Who brought L21 to the Iberian Peninsula? it is assumed that most of R1b are here DF27 and L21 is a minority, I have some possible candidates; 1- Some of the Celto-Germanic tribes Hallstatt periods A, B, or C,They are proven archaeologically two entries in the Iberian peninsula one in the ninth century bc and another in the seventh century B.C., 2-Celto-Belgian tribes? who came and settled in the Iberian Peninsula in the sixth century bc giving rise to Celtiberians substrate, 3-other? ....
Another explanation is the Atlantic Bronze Age, which was an intense period of exchanging and trading of products by sea, so it could have come directly from either the British Isles or West France to Iberia.

ArmandoR1b
06-16-2015, 09:31 PM
I have not talked about politics, you do not know me and you're not one to judge, just look at my answers and tell me where there is any question that bothers you, if you do not know Spanish can take some lessons, I say this with all due respect ...

Now that you have clarified your lack of interest of the L21 in País Vasco, Navarra, La Rioja, Catalunya, Balearic Islands, or Valencia is not due to politics I apologize for making that assumption. Of course I do not know you but with what happens in certain circles I couldn't help but to suppose that the cause was political. I have no problem understanding Spanish.

ArmandoR1b
06-16-2015, 09:44 PM
I have definitely returned this thread to life, now I'm a really interesting question to pose¿ Who brought L21 to the Iberian Peninsula? it is assumed that most of R1b are here DF27 and L21 is a minority, I have some possible candidates; 1- Some of the Celto-Germanic tribes Hallstatt periods A, B, or C,They are proven archaeologically two entries in the Iberian peninsula one in the ninth century bc and another in the seventh century B.C., 2-Celto-Belgian tribes? who came and settled in the Iberian Peninsula in the sixth century bc giving rise to Celtiberians substrate, 3-other? ....

These are questions that I don't think will be answered until enough ancient remains in western Europe have had DNA testing and enough people from Spain and Latin America that are L21 have had a BigY or FullGenomes test. Of course DNA testing can't be done on cremated remains but there should be pre-cremation and post-cremation burials that show a difference.

Franc
06-17-2015, 10:23 AM
We finally understand, do not want to attack anyone, do not want to insult anyone, I will not be a problem, I just want knowledge about myself, I have respect for all your opinions but I have of my own, you may not have extensive knowledge about some issues but I am observant and read a lot, in terms of trade hypothesis Atlantic Bronze Age is attractive but when someone goes to another country to do business is not engaged impregnate women of different ethnic groups, in some places this can be very dangerous, although it is conceivable that there may be isolated cases of genetic crosses, it is more logical to think of a permanent settlement of people in an area that results in a later miscegenation and acculturation .... thanks for your interest.

RCO
06-17-2015, 01:47 PM
New article.
New clues to the evolutionary history of the main European paternal lineage M269: dissection of the Y-SNP S116 in Atlantic Europe and Iberia
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg2015114a.html
Table:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg2015114x2.xls

Franc
06-18-2015, 09:12 AM
Took a few days mulling over a crazy idea, so far all we thought that the movements of genetic markers in European populations of the ages of bronze and iron were always produced by volunteers population displacement to adjacent territories either by conquest or peacefully, other possibility would be based on movements of groups of people enslaved after battles or shots of cities and towns, I'm thinking for example of the Romans all know that often when any tribe is bitterly resisted the conquest was reduced to slavery and transported hundreds of miles away to be sold as slaves to any citizen with sufficient funds so that a group of a Celtic tribe of Britain could end up in a farming village in central Hispania or in a big city like Cesaraugusta, these movements which apparently would generate too much impact on the local population would have to look at in perspective because the number of slaves was very high during the Imperial era and could explain the introduction of minority markers in areas outside these .....

Heber
06-18-2015, 11:02 AM
I have definitely returned this thread to life, now I'm a really interesting question to pose¿ Who brought L21 to the Iberian Peninsula? it is assumed that most of R1b are here DF27 and L21 is a minority, I have some possible candidates; 1- Some of the Celto-Germanic tribes Hallstatt periods A, B, or C,They are proven archaeologically two entries in the Iberian peninsula one in the ninth century bc and another in the seventh century B.C., 2-Celto-Belgian tribes? who came and settled in the Iberian Peninsula in the sixth century bc giving rise to Celtiberians substrate, 3-other? ....

Here is my analysis of DNA in Iberia.
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/iberian-dna/
I believe L21 was part of the Bronze Age Atlantic trading network as described by Cunliffe and Koch in Celtic from the West.
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-from-the-west/
For example notched shields depicted on warrior stelae in Tartessos are identical to leather shields found in County Longford, Ireland.
The two great copper mines of Atlantic Europe of that period were Rio Tinto near Huevla and Tartessos and Ross Island in Ireland.
There are also similarities between stelae between Kemi Oba and Tartessos and along the Atlantic.
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/the-stelae-people/
This hints at the path M269 and subclades may have taken to reach Iberia along the Stelae People pathway.
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/the-stelae-people/
Franc I notice your Avatar is a Maikop bull, which is similar to Iberian and Mycean bulls of the same period.
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/kemi-oba/

rms2
06-18-2015, 11:53 AM
I don't find the Celtic-from-the-West idea convincing, and I think L21 in the Isles predates Cunliffe's Atlantic facade Bronze Age trading network. I think L21 got to the Isles with Beaker from the Rhineland, perhaps with some Beaker input from NW France, and is ultimately of Central European derivation.

Franc
06-18-2015, 05:01 PM
I'm more in tune with the opinion of RMS, although I have many doubts about the moment I happened this, I am preparing another madness hypothesis that I will present when work allows me ......