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David Mc
03-15-2015, 08:33 AM
I've tried to re-introduce this data into a new thread, as its scope is larger than my own family research. I've limited it to DF49xDF23, not because I want to be rude to descendant lines, but because I want to see if there are any hints as to the origins and spread of the parent (DF49) SNP. I'm hoping this will keep the format so that it is easily readable. Last time I did this, everything ended up being pulled to the left. There are a few more names that have found their way into this list, as well, or old ones that have a new place in larger subsets. I will note some of the patterns I'm observing later, but I'd appreciate other eyes and thoughts, as well.

Unclassified
Unknown =Finland* (Not tested)
Noel = Unknown
Couture =Normandy, France
Murray =Unknown (Scotland?)

0A ) Z2980-, ZP20-
McCreary =Northern Ireland/Scotland
Blair =Ireland/England (Orig. Scotland?)
McKinney =Scotland?

A ) Z2980-, ZP20+, ZP21-
McGee =Unknown (orig. Irish or Scottish?)
Bowers =Unknown (orig. England?)
McElrea/McYlrea/Mylrea =Manx (some of whom immigrated to Ireland)
Officer =Scotland
Johnson =Unknown
Allred =Lancashire, England
Kendall =Unknown (Cumbria?)
Parry/Perry =Liverpool, England

A1 ) ZP20+, ZP21+, ZP23-
Culver =London, England
Burgess =England
Pettit =England
Bengtsson =Sweden
Pruett/Pruitt/Prewitt =England
Ewstas =Kent, England
Morgan =Louth, Ireland (orig. Wales?)
Robertson =Berwickshire, Scotland

A1a ) ZP21+, ZP23+, L302-
Allison =Scotland
O'Dea =Unknown (Ireland?)

A1a1 ) ZP21+, ZP23+ : Hopkins McCabe Cluster. Contains L302 & L319
Hopkins =Ireland
McCabe =Ireland
Gillespie =Unknown
Byrne =Ireland
Harrison =Cheshire, England

A2) ZP20+, ZP80+
Kendall =Unknown (England?)

B1 ) Z2980+, ZP54+, ZP60+
Holladay =England
Gibson =Unknown

B1 ) FGC9591+, ZP41+
Goff =Scotland
Smith =Unknown
Mason =Unknown
Stedman =Shropshire, England
Biddick =Cornwall, England
Miller = Unknown
Thompson =United Kingdom

C ) DF49+, Z2980+, Z2976+, Z2983+, DF23-
Wilson =Ireland (orig. Scotland or England?)
Bennett =Kinross (Perth), Scotland

jdean
03-15-2015, 12:53 PM
Thank you David, a very useful summary !!

Personally I think DF23 x M222 should be included, the SNP gap between Z2961 and the M222 level is very large, and if it were the geographic spread would also increase.

That said we are starting to get a smattering of continental DF49 x DF23 coming through now. Abril (only visible in the SNP page) is Z2976* via Yseq and is Spanish whilst Neaves is DF49 * (also via Yseq and with a ZP20 test pending) who has a very credible ancestry going back to Rouen in Normandy.

There is also somebody with a presumed ancestry from Jersey (Chanel Isles) who is DF49** but probably Z2980**, the Chanel Isles has historically always had a much closer conection with France than Britain.

A small addition to the details above is Evans who is ZP80 and has an ancestry from North Wales.

WRT to the origins of other people in the list, Goff and Thompson are both (unfortunately) thoroughly brickwalled in the US. I think we can quite safely put Johnson down as Scottish (he has a very close GD to Officer and Johnson is a Scottish name) and Pettit's family came from Sussex. WRT to Morgan, apparently there are Irish names that were anglicised (welshified ? : ) to this.

David Mc
03-15-2015, 07:12 PM
Thanks for your comments, jdean. You make a good point, and I will amend the OP to include DF23 (although it might take me a couple of days-- I'm having a quick read of the forum between different activities today). It's interesting to see Normandy and France starting to make some appearances. One of the things I observed in the list above is a stronger presence in the West of Britain, between Wales and Scotland, with a few in Ireland. Having said that, some of them come from the South of England (Sussex and Kent) or the northeast of Scotland, and there's another from farther southwest (Cornwall). If I recall correctly, Officer posted that he believed his family came to Scotland from elsewhere...

I'm still considering the idea that DF49xDF23 (or, at least DF49xM222) might have come to the Isles later than some of its subclades, but there is a strong enough West British grouping that I wonder if it mightn't still reflect some Older British stock.

Southforkrudy
03-17-2015, 01:15 AM
N
Thank you David, a very useful summary !!

Personally I think DF23 x M222 should be included, the SNP gap between Z2961 and the M222 level is very large, and if it were the geographic spread would also increase.

That said we are starting to get a smattering of continental DF49 x DF23 coming through now. Abril (only visible in the SNP page) is Z2976* via Yseq and is Spanish whilst Neaves is DF49 * (also via Yseq and with a ZP20 test pending) who has a very credible ancestry going back to Rouen in Normandy.

There is also somebody with a presumed ancestry from Jersey (Chanel Isles) who is DF49** but probably Z2980**, the Chanel Isles has historically always had a much closer conection with France than Britain.

A small addition to the details above is Evans who is ZP80 and has an ancestry from North Wales.

WRT to the origins of other people in the list, Goff and Thompson are both (unfortunately) thoroughly brickwalled in the US. I think we can quite safely put Johnson down as Scottish (he has a very close GD to Officer and Johnson is a Scottish name) and Pettit's family came from Sussex. WRT to Morgan, apparently there are Irish names that were anglicised (welshified ? : ) to this.

There is a Morgan who has done a ton of research on O'Morgan's and Morgan's of Ireland (you can google the name for each province). The scope is much broader than may be perceived. According to his research there are numerous clans in all four provinces that had Gaelic names that evolved into several different anglicized variants, Morgan being one of them. One can just take a look at the "Morgan" surname project to learn that the name is ubiquitous in the Isles, especially in the east, from Dublin to Belfast. I was under the impression that Welsh Morgan's, at least of recent history (400-500 years) settled mainly in Wexford and Waterford. We have never thought of ourselves as anything but native Irish because of our religion. However, that doesn't exclude any possibilities of a Welsh background, but my cousin in Ireland who has done some work highly doubts it.

Southforkrudy
03-17-2015, 01:20 AM
BTW...I like this, I like what you're doing with this chart. The diversity is interesting.

David Mc
03-17-2015, 02:39 AM
Here are the DF23xM222 additions:

C-000 ) DF49+ DF23+ Z2961 ?
Cleator =United Kingdom
Leitch =Scotland

C1 ) DF23+ Z2961-
McComb/McCombs =Ireland
Brin/Brun =France
Vaughn =Wales
Clark =Unknown
Caldwell = Ireland
Carle/Carll =United Kingdom
Boone =France (?)
Doherty =Donegal, Ireland
Bonnet =Piemont, Italy
Vann =Unknown
Phillips =Unknown
Anglin =Ireland

C1a ) DF23+ Z2961+ M222-
Sullivan =Unknown (Ireland?)
Leprost =France
Warren =United Kingdom
Madden =Clare/Limerick, Ireland
McPhillips =Ireland
McCaffry = Unknown (Ireland?)
Kelly =Ireland
Martin =Antrim, Ireland
Carroll =Tipperary, Ireland
Heil =Hungary
Lewis =Wales

C1a1 ) Z2961+ ZZ29+ ZZ30+
Powell =Unknown
Pruner =Unknown

C1a1a ) ZZ29+ ZZ30+ ZP69+
Joyce =Galway, Ireland
Thomas =Unknown
Allen =Ireland

C1a2 ) Z2961+ ZP75+ ZP76+
Johnston/Johnstone = Northern Ireland/Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland
Tinker =England
Fancher/Fanshaw/Fancy =England
Landon =England

C1a2a ) Z2961+ ZP75+ ZP76+, ZP77+
Trainor =Ireland

David Mc
03-17-2015, 02:45 AM
If a moderator sees this, would you kindly edit the forum title to say: "DF49xM222 Names and Geographical Origins"?

Thank you.

David Mc
03-17-2015, 05:47 PM
Just noticed the McGee project has an Owens from Wales who looks like he might (?) cluster with "our" McGees (and therefore ZP20).

David Mc
03-18-2015, 11:03 PM
Looking at the McKinney Project, there is also a Scottish McDougald who seems to be a STR match for our (Z2980-, ZP20-)McKinneys.

David Mc
03-22-2015, 02:01 AM
A Mylrea (FTDNA Kit# 338138) has just joined the R-DF49 and Subclades Project, which is an exciting addition for me. The McYlrea surname was carried from Mann to Ireland a few hundred years ago where it became McElrea. In the Isle of Man itself, about 15 years ago, most of the "Mc" names dropped the "c," and McYlrea became Mylrea.

A question for jdean: Will the Mylreas need to test for ZP20 in order to take their place with the McElreas, or can they be assigned to ZP20?

He has tested positive for DF49, so I don't know why FTDNA still shows him as a predicted R-L21... but I know that's FTDNA, not the administrators.

jdean
03-22-2015, 02:22 AM
I'd have a kipper for breakfast and post it to the food thread if I had one floating around the house to celebrate, not that I need much excuse to eat a Manx kipper : )

FTDNA's notification system is well and truly broke right now so this is the first I've heard of this fellow joining the project.

From memory these Mylreas are very close to your good self GD wise, and of course there is also the name association, so yes most likely he'll go straight into the ZP20+ group.

I need to go through the unassigned folk anyway !!

David Mc
03-22-2015, 02:28 AM
Thank you very kindly. They are close to us indeed, GD-wise.

Huntergatherer1066
03-22-2015, 03:00 AM
A Mylrea (FTDNA Kit# 338138) has just joined the R-DF49 and Subclades Project, which is an exciting addition for me. The McYlrea surname was carried from Mann to Ireland a few hundred years ago where it became McElrea. In the Isle of Man itself, about 15 years ago, most of the "Mc" names dropped the "c," and McYlrea became Mylrea.

A question for jdean: Will the Mylreas need to test for ZP20 in order to take their place with the McElreas, or can they be assigned to ZP20?

He has tested positive for DF49, so I don't know why FTDNA still shows him as a predicted R-L21... but I know that's FTDNA, not the administrators.

DF49 is on the FTDNA haplotree now, what test did he take to be DF49+?

David Mc
03-22-2015, 03:46 AM
You can test for individual SNPs under "Advanced Tests." You simply select the type (SNP), and the marker (in our case, DF49) and then purchase the test. That's assuming that FTDNA already has a sample of your DNA.

David Mc
03-24-2015, 10:16 PM
I just realized I made a rather significant typo in post #10. I wrote: "In the Isle of Man itself, about 15 years ago, most of the "Mc" names dropped the "c," and McYlrea became Mylrea." I meant to say "150 years," but many names dropped the 'c' earlier than that.

r_r_abril
03-27-2015, 11:28 PM
DF49+, Z2980+, Z2976+, DF23- (like the Wilson and Kinross surnames)

My surname is Rodríguez. My father and his family came from Salamanca (Spain).

David Mc
03-28-2015, 05:36 PM
Thank you, r_r_abril! You are the first DF49xDF23 we've seen from Spain. That's very interesting indeed.

David Mc
03-30-2015, 12:18 AM
DF49+, Z2980+, Z2976+, DF23- (like the Wilson and Kinross surnames)

My surname is Rodríguez. My father and his family came from Salamanca (Spain).

Out of interest, did you test with FTDNA? If you did, (and you haven't already done this), it would be great if you would join the R-DF49 and Subclades Project.

David Mc
03-31-2015, 01:43 AM
It's interesting to see that the YFull Experimental posits that DF13, DF49 and DF23 wall came into being ca. 4200 ybp. That would require some fairly rapid mutations. If the tree is correct, it would also suggest that they all share a common point (or at least region) of geographical origin, which I would assume is continental.

dp
03-31-2015, 07:25 PM
DF49+, Z2980+, Z2976+, DF23- (like the Wilson and Kinross surnames)

My surname is Rodríguez. My father and his family came from Salamanca (Spain).

Welcome r_r_abril. The haplotype Z2976+ DF23- is rare even compared to the rarity of DF49xM222. I hope that if there is a Father's Day sale that you'll take the Big-Y test. Maybe a new z2976 branch will get identified this year :-)
dp :-)

laurie
05-11-2015, 09:21 AM
I am the Joyce below and have now also tested negative for ZP106

C1a1a ) Z2961+ ZZ29+ ZZ30+ ZP69+ ZP106-
Joyce =Galway, Ireland
Thomas =Unknown
Allen =Ireland

And I think that makes David Powell's line now
C1a1 ) Z2961+ ZZ29+ ZZ30+ ZP106+ ZP69-
Powell =Unknown
Pruner =Unknown

MacEochaidh
05-17-2015, 04:50 PM
How many names are found among DF49>M222 and DF49XM222? I'm a DF23 Doherty from Donegal and I have a 66/67 match with a Daugherty and a 64/67 match with a Dougherty. I know that Doherty is found in large number among M222. Are there other similar names?

jdean
05-17-2015, 06:05 PM
How many names are found among DF49>M222 and DF49XM222? I'm a DF23 Doherty from Donegal and I have a 66/67 match with a Daugherty and a 64/67 match with a Dougherty. I know that Doherty is found in large number among M222. Are there other similar names?

Obviously there are a lot less DF49 x M222 surnames than M222 surnames : )

Personally I'd be surprised if there are any reasonably common (or not to uncommon) Irish and Scottish surnames lacking an M222 representative.

Dubhthach
05-17-2015, 07:22 PM
My own surname actually has at least two distinct M222 subclades showing up in testing (these subclades are mutually exclusive). Of course part of reason for this was Dubhthach (written Dubthach in Old Irish) was quite common personal name during Old and Middle Irish periods (600-1200AD) as a result there are probably at least 4-5 distinct families all descended from different Dubhthach's. A more extreme example of this is Murphy whose ancestral name is Murchadh perhaps one of most common name in Irish language sources from 5th-18th centuries. (this is one of reason's why "Murphy" is most common irish surname)

-Paul

dp
05-20-2015, 09:17 PM
I am the Joyce below and have now also tested negative for ZP106

C1a1a ) Z2961+ ZZ29+ ZZ30+ ZP69+ ZP106-
Joyce =Galway, Ireland
Thomas =Unknown
Allen =Ireland

And I think that makes David Powell's line now
C1a1 ) Z2961+ ZZ29+ ZZ30+ ZP106+ ZP69-
Powell =Unknown
Pruner =Unknown

My ZP106+ Sanger return is in. So I have a new tip-marker. :-)
dp :-)

MacUalraig
05-21-2015, 08:24 AM
Obviously there are a lot less DF49 x M222 surnames than M222 surnames : )

Personally I'd be surprised if there are any reasonably common (or not to uncommon) Irish and Scottish surnames lacking an M222 representative.

That got me curious so I trawled through the latest ranking list of Scottish surnames from GROS. The first one I am struggling on is ALLAN in 43rd - I found a couple of M222 ALLENs but I think that's an English spelling. Of course it also depends whether you insist on a SNP confirmed example.

dp
06-02-2015, 02:57 PM
Dear DaveMc,
My Pruner match informed me that their ZP106+ return has come in. My "tip-marker" is now confirmed to not be private, and with laurie's ZP106- result to define branching downstream of Z2961.
That's a nice thing to find out today. :party:
dp :-)

David Mc
06-02-2015, 07:02 PM
Congratulations, and Happy Birthday. That really is a great birthday present!

David Mc
06-18-2015, 08:18 PM
I do believe we have at least a couple of DF49's that have just come down the Big-Y pike. I've contacted one of them and asked him to join the DF49 project (surname Reed). I think we have a Kelly as well.

dp
06-24-2015, 08:41 PM
I do believe we have at least a couple of DF49's that have just come down the Big-Y pike. I've contacted one of them and asked him to join the DF49 project (surname Reed). I think we have a Kelly as well.

That's great.
It seems like new Sanger tests for DF49 has stalled. The last one to become available was 4-12, that I'm aware of.
5046
ignore the red marks (it just means I've had those tests --which is a neat feature so one doesn't reorder a test they've already had)
dp :-)

dp
07-09-2015, 04:37 PM
I do believe we have at least a couple of DF49's that have just come down the Big-Y pike. I've contacted one of them and asked him to join the DF49 project (surname Reed). I think we have a Kelly as well.
I found a kit 74051_McCrary in the L21 Big-Y folder. It groups with the ZP104 McCreary kit.
dp :-)

dp
07-23-2015, 07:57 PM
[withdrawn]

David Mc
07-27-2015, 10:39 PM
I haven't had much time to follow through with updating the initial charts, but it is interesting to observe the growing geographical diversity in DF23+ M222-. I see the usual suspects, of course (British Isles) but there are also a growing number DF23 from France, and a smattering from such places as the Netherlands, Italy, and Hungary.

dp
10-12-2015, 04:52 PM
https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/R1b1a-DF49
We are making a poor showing on YHRD. The only kits that show up are two M222+ kits.
dp

dp
01-07-2016, 09:51 PM
Here are the DF23xM222 additions:

C-000 ) DF49+ DF23+ Z2961 ?
Cleator =United Kingdom
Leitch =Scotland

C1 ) DF23+ Z2961-
McComb/McCombs =Ireland
Brin/Brun =France
Vaughn =Wales
Clark =Unknown
Caldwell = Ireland
Carle/Carll =United Kingdom
Boone =France (?)
Doherty =Donegal, Ireland
Bonnet =Piemont, Italy
Vann =Unknown
Phillips =Unknown
Anglin =Ireland

C1a ) DF23+ Z2961+ M222-
Sullivan =Unknown (Ireland?)
Leprost =France
Warren =United Kingdom
Madden =Clare/Limerick, Ireland
McPhillips =Ireland
McCaffry = Unknown (Ireland?)
Kelly =Ireland
Martin =Antrim, Ireland
Carroll =Tipperary, Ireland
Heil =Hungary
Lewis =Wales

C1a1 ) Z2961+ ZZ29+ ZZ30+
Powell =Unknown
Pruner =Unknown

C1a1a ) ZZ29+ ZZ30+ ZP69+
Joyce =Galway, Ireland
Thomas =Unknown
Allen =Ireland

C1a2 ) Z2961+ ZP75+ ZP76+
Johnston/Johnstone = Northern Ireland/Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland
Tinker =England
Fancher/Fanshaw/Fancy =England
Landon =England

C1a2a ) Z2961+ ZP75+ ZP76+, ZP77+
Trainor =Ireland

David.
I had a Happy New Year surprise.
My Sanger certification as ZZ30+ is in. If another one comes in for the ZP69 line (C1a1a ) ZZ29+ ZZ30+ ZP69+, then the branching for what you had as C1a1 will be (in your terminology) Sanger certified as:
C1a1b) Z2961+ ZZ29+ ZZ30+ ZP106+

I updated the ZP106+ for Powell & Pruner, hence I appended a b to C1a1, and italicized ZZ29 which is so far just from Big-Y.

Hopefully the two novel branches of Z2961 will get on the ISOGG tree later this year.
dp :-)

David Mc
01-07-2016, 10:16 PM
David.
I had a Happy New Year surprise.
My Sanger certification as ZZ30+ is in. If another one comes in for the ZP69 line (C1a1a ) ZZ29+ ZZ30+ ZP69+, then the branching for what you had as C1a1 will be (in your terminology) Sanger certified as:
C1a1b) Z2961+ ZZ29+ ZZ30+ ZP106+

I updated the ZP106+ for Powell & Pruner, hence I appended a b to C1a1, and italicized ZZ29 which is so far just from Big-Y.

Hopefully the two novel branches of Z2961 will get on the ISOGG tree later this year.
dp :-)

Fantastic-- congratulations! The classifications (C1a1 etc.) are actually lifted straight from the R-DF49 and Subclades Project. My only contribution (if it can be called that) is trying to pair them with geographical locations. Most of that was also done by the administrators.

Unfortunately I haven't had time to follow through with new additions, although I've occasionally scanned the project to see if there are any emerging patterns. Apart from a possible bias towards regions west of the Pennines, I haven't been able to identify anything solid. Interestingly we do have DF49's from the Channel Islands, France, Spain, and Poland now, although not all are part of the Project. It's quite the puzzle.

jdean
01-07-2016, 10:59 PM
I haven't had much time to follow through with updating the initial charts, but it is interesting to observe the growing geographical diversity in DF23+ M222-. I see the usual suspects, of course (British Isles) but there are also a growing number DF23 from France, and a smattering from such places as the Netherlands, Italy, and Hungary.

And a French ZP23** with Northern Italian Ancestry ; )

I'll wager our DF49? from SE Poland will end up some flavour of DF49 x DF23 as well, so that section of the tree is slowly catching DF23 x M222 up.

Of course DF49 x DF23 and DF23 x M222 should be considered en mass anyway : )

laurie
01-20-2016, 07:32 AM
With FTDNA's update to their Y tree you can now add the following to both Thomas Allen and myself

C1a1a ) ZZ29+ ZZ30+ ZP69+ FGC34047+FGC34048+
Joyce =Galway, Ireland
Allen =Ireland

Not sure yet whether Thomas is also positive for those last two.

Muireagain
02-03-2016, 08:32 PM
Has any one noticed that DF49 belongs to the family of Z39589. Which includes

DF41
'Royal Stewart' from the Lordship of Carrick (said to be the northern portion of the Lordship of Galloway)
MacLellan a surname associated with the rump of the Lordship of Galloway.

Z251
Irvines, a family of this name lived to the east of Lordship of Galloway, on the north side of the Solway.

L1335
The 'Scottish Cluster' consist of surnames such Campbells, MacRaes, Buchanans who are associate with Argyll, as the shore of the Gael.

Suggesting that Z39589 represent a northern Gaelic speaking population.


I didn't see reference to FGC6545+, is there any question that they are not Ui Maine descendants?

Additionally there are Morgans that are DF49+ and DF23- (waiting on the result of from a second group distantly related family for Z113) from the counties of Armagh and Louth, were up to the start of the twentieth century they calling themselves O Muireagain. Local pedigrees make them descendants of the Ui Tuirtre.

If M222 and FGC6545 are from the northern half of Ireland, i.e., Dal Cuinn and Ui Maine, then Z2961 originated in a place that that lead to northern Irish populations.
If Z2961 and Z113 are from the northern half of Ireland, i.e., Dal Cuinn/Ui Maine and Ui Tuirte, then DF49 originated in a place that that lead to northern Irish populations.
If DF49, DF41, Z251 and L1335 are from the northern Gaelic speaking lands, then Z39589 originated in a place that that lead to northern Gaelic populations.

Is then like that Z2961, DF49 originate in Ireland and probably the same for Z39589.

MacUalraig
02-03-2016, 08:53 PM
Has any one noticed that DF49 belongs to the family of Z39589. Which includes

DF41
'Royal Stewart' from the Lordship of Carrick (said to be the northern portion of the Lordship of Galloway)
MacLellan a surname associated with the rump of the Lordship of Galloway.

Z251
Irvines, a family of this name lived to the east of Lordship of Galloway, on the north side of the Solway.

L1335
The 'Scottish Cluster' consist of surnames such Campbells, MacRaes, Buchanans who are associate with Argyll, as the shore of the Gael.

Suggesting that Z39589 represent a northern Gaelic speaking population.


I didn't see reference to FGC6545+, is there any question that they are not Ui Maine descendants?

Additionally there are Morgans that are DF49+ and DF23- (waiting on the result of from a second group distantly related family for Z113) from the counties of Armagh and Louth, were up to the start of the twentieth century they calling themselves O Muireagain. Local pedigrees make them descendants of the Ui Tuirtre.

If M222 and FGC6545 are from the northern half of Ireland, i.e., Dal Cuinn and Ui Maine, then Z2961 originated in a place that that lead to northern Irish populations.
If Z2961 and Z113 are from the northern half of Ireland, i.e., Dal Cuinn/Ui Maine and Ui Tuirte, then DF49 originated in a place that that lead to northern Irish populations.
If DF49, DF41, Z251 and L1335 are from the northern Gaelic speaking lands, then Z39589 originated in a place that that lead to northern Gaelic populations.

Is then like that Z2961, DF49 originate in Ireland and probably the same for Z39589.

That's selective even for you :-) what about all the Z251 in eastern Europe for example?

Dubhthach
02-03-2016, 08:56 PM
That's selective even for you :-) what about all the Z251 in eastern Europe for example?

Or the fact that we have two separate Iberian DF41 lineages, neither of which share any SNP's other than at the common "DF41 block" (eg. block of SNP's found in all DF41 lineages) ;)

Muireagain
02-03-2016, 09:10 PM
That's selective even for you :-) what about all the Z251 in eastern Europe for example?

Are you referring to ones that share their SNPs with those that also from the British Isles? Are you aware that modern emigration was not just a west journey. British trades men emigrated Eastward too. Smith isn't a Lithuanian surname nor is Brude a Belarusian surname (nor for that matter is Holmes a Portuguese name).

http://rbth.com/arts/2014/09/22/russias_greatest_scots_men_who_left_their_mark_on_ moscow_40017.html

Muireagain
02-03-2016, 09:23 PM
Or the fact that we have two separate Iberian DF41 lineages, neither of which share any SNP's other than at the common "DF41 block" (eg. block of SNP's found in all DF41 lineages) ;)

All sub-groups of DF41 have members that can be identified from the British Isle. This cannot be said for any other area and hence British Isle is the likely point of origin for DF41.

Clearly member of DF41 also had opportunity to travelled, DF41 includes the descendants of the kings of Scotland from 1371 to 1688 and kings of England from 1607 to 1688.

Muireagain
02-03-2016, 09:36 PM
That's selective even for you :-)

The Scottish origin faction of M222 are on thin ice. Susan's Duncan are getting closer and closer to being O Donnagain of Sil Luigdech. While Alan's Milligan are not in a much better position.

Dubhthach
02-03-2016, 09:37 PM
All sub-groups of DF41 have members that can be identified from the British Isle. This cannot be said for any other area and hence British Isle is the likely point of origin for DF41.

Clearly member of DF41 also had opportunity to travelled, DF41 includes the descendants of the kings of Scotland from 1371 to 1688 and kings of England from 1607 to 1688.

The two Iberian "subgroups" don't have any members of British or Irish origin. As the second person to test DF41+ in FTDNA and founder/admin of the R-DF41 project I think I have general idea about the Stewarts.

Muireagain
02-03-2016, 10:07 PM
The two Iberian "subgroups" don't have any members of British or Irish origin. As the second person to test DF41+ in FTDNA and founder/admin of the R-DF41 project I think I have general idea about the Stewarts.

The two Iberians belong to DF41 "subgroup" block which from the appliance of the law of parsimony says they are originally from the British Isles. To argue otherwise is as worthless to argue that Kelly 152124 is an Iberian for he comes under the same block.

(And in all politeness being the 2nd DF41 logically means nothing in regard to being an authority on DF41.)

Dubhthach
02-04-2016, 07:04 AM
The two Iberians belong to DF41 "subgroup" block which from the appliance of the law of parsimony says they are originally from the British Isles. To argue otherwise is as worthless to argue that Kelly 152124 is an Iberian for he comes under the same block.

(And in all politeness being the 2nd DF41 logically means nothing in regard to being an authority on DF41.)

Kelly doesn't come under the same block, you misunderstand Alex's page, he groups together people who are * for a clade eg. DF41* and who don't share any SNP's with anyone else. He use to have them as distinct singles with all their unique SNP's. As a result Kelly doesn't share any SNP's other than base DF41 SNP's with Sotomayor and Hernandez. Kelly belongs to a completely different STR cluster.

If for example someone closer to Kelly does BigY and they share SNP's you would see a distinct cluster form which doesn't include the two Iberian lineages, likewise if someone close to Sotomayor or Hernandez tests they will spilt into their own clusters.

MacUalraig
02-04-2016, 07:41 AM
The Scottish origin faction of M222 are on thin ice. Susan's Duncan are getting closer and closer to being O Donnagain of Sil Luigdech. While Alan's Milligan are not in a much better position.

I an categorically not in this 'Scottish origin faction'. I maintain an open mind on the issue, avoid cherry picking and try to weigh up the best objective methods. I've challenged theories from both sides.

However out of myself, Susan and Alan I am the only one with an actual Scottish paternal paper trail and my own cluster so far is exclusively Scottish with the arguable exception of Clarkson (who has no old world paper trail). If you look as recently as the 1891 census for Campsie, Stirlingshire you will see my Kennedy ancestors marked as born in Perthshire. Alan is from Northern Ireland and Susan is an American of Ulster or Ulster Scots origins.

jdean
02-04-2016, 09:09 AM
Has any one noticed that DF49 belongs to the family of Z39589. Which includes

DF41
'Royal Stewart' from the Lordship of Carrick (said to be the northern portion of the Lordship of Galloway)
MacLellan a surname associated with the rump of the Lordship of Galloway.

Z251
Irvines, a family of this name lived to the east of Lordship of Galloway, on the north side of the Solway.

L1335
The 'Scottish Cluster' consist of surnames such Campbells, MacRaes, Buchanans who are associate with Argyll, as the shore of the Gael.

Suggesting that Z39589 represent a northern Gaelic speaking population.


I didn't see reference to FGC6545+, is there any question that they are not Ui Maine descendants?

Additionally there are Morgans that are DF49+ and DF23- (waiting on the result of from a second group distantly related family for Z113) from the counties of Armagh and Louth, were up to the start of the twentieth century they calling themselves O Muireagain. Local pedigrees make them descendants of the Ui Tuirtre.

If M222 and FGC6545 are from the northern half of Ireland, i.e., Dal Cuinn and Ui Maine, then Z2961 originated in a place that that lead to northern Irish populations.
If Z2961 and Z113 are from the northern half of Ireland, i.e., Dal Cuinn/Ui Maine and Ui Tuirte, then DF49 originated in a place that that lead to northern Irish populations.
If DF49, DF41, Z251 and L1335 are from the northern Gaelic speaking lands, then Z39589 originated in a place that that lead to northern Gaelic populations.

Is then like that Z2961, DF49 originate in Ireland and probably the same for Z39589.

You start a thread supposedly about the origin of Z39589 but then focus on the younger branches, this seems slightly wrong headed to me.

Z251 and DF49 are clearly the oldest so why not look there ?

I don't think anybody could look at the Z251 project map and conclude it originated in Ireland

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Z251?iframe=ymap

DF49 is more complicated but again looking at the project map is useful

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-df49?iframe=ymap

Putting M222 aside, which is a relatively young super group under Z2961, you can see there is not much DF49 in Ireland and most of that is down to two family clusters.

What's left primarily is found in Northern Ireland and most of those appear to have relatively recent Scottish ancestry.

Aside of this there are a reasonable number with Continental ancestry that any excluding the purposely belligerent would fail to connect to Ireland.

Muireagain
02-04-2016, 02:09 PM
You start a thread supposedly about the origin of Z39589 but then focus on the younger branches, this seems slightly wrong headed to me.

Z251 and DF49 are clearly the oldest so why not look there ?


Z39589 is a product of its children

P312>L21>DF13>Z39589>DF49
P312>L21>DF13>Z39589>DF41
P312>L21>DF13>Z39589>Z251
P312>L21>DF13>Z39589>L1335

L21 is said to define the Celts of the British Isles. Hence Z39589 is a sub set of the British Isles. While Bradley's results from Rathlin Island shows that L21 was present 4000 years ago in the Northern Channel area.

L21 is found in Spain. Here is the L21 FREQUENCIES IN SPAIN (from Valverde et al. 2015)
Galicia: 7,14%
Asturias: 6,35%
Cantabria: 6,25%
Basques (with a Basque surname): 2,17%
Andalucia: 0%
Alicante: 0% Madrid: 1,01%
Barcelona: 1%

However this is not reflect of native L21+ population, instead either the creation of the kingdom of Britonia in the 6th century or reflects trade (and mercenary routes) that connected northwest Spain with the British Isles. If you are ever in the museum in Rennes you will see a map depicting the movement of Briton, due to the English Invasion, from out of Britain to Brittany and northwest Spain.

Given that L21 is from the British Isles, then its child Z39589 is also like to be from the British Isles then its Children (DF49,DF41,Z251 and L1335) are dominated by surnames associated with the British Isles.

The Children of Z39589 are dominated by either Anglicization of Gaelic surnames or surnames like Stewart that are from Gaelic speaking areas. Hence it is logical that Z39589 is from the Gaelic speaking world. L1335 is from the Highland and Isles of Scotland, DF41 is form Carrick, Galloway and Ireland, Z251 is small however the major branch is from a Gaelic speaking area north of the Solway, and finally DF49 is found in Ireland. Historically all the people associated with the Scottish branches of Z39589 are viewed as originating, as Gaelic speakers, from Ireland.

Dominating the discussion with the branch of DF49, i.e. M222+ (sub-branch S660>DF85), is those of Scottish origin. It is not that M222 is predominately found in Scotland. M222 epicenter is south of Aileach, i.e. Donegal (Tir Conaill, land Cenel Conaill of Ui Neill) and Tryone (Tir Eoghain, land of Cenel Eoghain of the Ui Neill) borders and another smaller around Rathcrogan in co. Roscommon (home to Ui Briuin).

It has been shown that Cenel Conaill families from the branch Sil Luighdech mac Setna are (sub-branch S660>S588), The Scottish faction response is that Sil Luighdech mac Setna are not Cenel Conaill because the pedigree is not prefect, they must have come from Scotland.

It has been shown that the royal Cenel Eoghain families (fully traceable through the pedigrees to early Ui Neill history) are M222+ (sub-branch S660>A259). The Scottish faction are quite on this subject.

It has been shown that the Ui Briuin, a parallel family to Ui Neill (both being Dal Cuinn) are M222+. The Scottish faction are quite on this subject.

It has been shown that sub-branch A738 families are from the Irish midlands). The Scottish faction are quite on this subject.

It has been shown that the Ui Maine and M222>S660 share a common origin. The Scottish faction are quite on this subject.



[/QUOTE] I don't think anybody could look at the Z251 project map and conclude it originated in Ireland

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Z251?iframe=ymap [/QUOTE]

DF49 is more complicated but again looking at the project map is useful

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-df49?iframe=ymap [/QUOTE]

If I look at the maps I would say that Z251 and DF49 come from the Eastern United States of America. Of course I know from my history lessons that Europeans settled the Eastern United States of America only after the 16th century. The same historical knowledge needs to be applied to population movements with the British Isles (for L21+ defines the origin of Z251, DF49, etc., to the British Isles).


[/QUOTE] Putting M222 aside, which is a relatively young super group under Z2961, you can see there is not much DF49 in Ireland and most of that is down to two family clusters.

What's left primarily is found in Northern Ireland and most of those appear to have relatively recent Scottish ancestry.

Aside of this there are a reasonable number with Continental ancestry that any excluding the purposely belligerent would fail to connect to Ireland.[/QUOTE]

Why are they of Scottish ancestry? None of the M222 that trace themselves to the Ulster can trace themselves to Scotland! Scotland is not Protestant because it is full of German planters. In Ulster locals converted to the new ideas of the new religion (see the records).

Muireagain
02-04-2016, 04:16 PM
I an categorically not in this 'Scottish origin faction'. I maintain an open mind on the issue, avoid cherry picking and try to weigh up the best objective methods. I've challenged theories from both sides.

However out of myself, Susan and Alan I am the only one with an actual Scottish paternal paper trail and my own cluster so far is exclusively Scottish with the arguable exception of Clarkson (who has no old world paper trail). If you look as recently as the 1891 census for Campsie, Stirlingshire you will see my Kennedy ancestors marked as born in Perthshire. Alan is from Northern Ireland and Susan is an American of Ulster or Ulster Scots origins.

So excluding you from the 'Scottish origin faction', the 'Scottish origin faction' is represented by people whose ancestors are from Northern Ireland and believe that their ancestors which can trace to Ulster, had Scottish ancestors. Given that it is clear that local in Ulster converted to Protestantism, the law of parsimony says Alan and Susan's ancestors were locals... (However Susan makes a claim for Bute, yet if true it can clearly be seen (i.e. the MacSweenys for example) that families moved within the Gaelic world.)

As for accusations of cherry picking, I go with the logical conclusion. I am neither Irish nor Scottish, and as long as I am not Welsh I am happy. My problem is the wasting of time that could be used into delving deeper into the history of our ancestors.

jdean
02-04-2016, 05:55 PM
Given that L21 is from the British Isles

I'm slightly confused, why exactly did you bother post a question about the origin of Z39589 in the first place ?

dp
02-04-2016, 06:01 PM
I'm slightly confused, why exactly did you bother post a question about the origin of Z39589 in the first place ?
Considering it's not within the DF49xM222 clade I was a little confused too. See this query and see if you agree that such posts would be better addressed in such a forum.
dp :-)

Muireagain
02-04-2016, 06:50 PM
Considering it's not within the DF49xM222 clade I was a little confused too. See this query and see if you agree that such posts would be better addressed in such a forum.
dp :-)

Certain amount of M222 politics, which overflows to origin of the DF49 population. The "Out of Ireland" or "Out of Scotland" conflict that has existed in the M222 population since its discovery, 9 years ago. The origin of DF49 is important for the origin of M222 and the origin of Z39589 is important for the origin of DF49.

Now the other branches of Z39589 inhabit Argyll (which means shore of the Gael) and Galloway (thought to be Gall ('Foreign') Gael) and future East. All these areas became Gaelic speaking after the 5th century AD, as past wisdom has it, with the arrival of the Scoti (Irish). They would create Scotland Minor (Major was Ireland) and name the land after Ireland (Atholl, Loch Erne, etc.).

Hence if the other branches of Z39589 originated in Ireland, then it is unreasonable to think that DF49 or M222 originated in Scotland and travelled against the current to Ireland, given that its parent was original from Ireland.

Now the issue for Scottishness is then did Gaelic come from Ireland? Ongoing investigation hopes to place it earlier than previous historians have chosen to placed it. If achieved that would mean all the branches of Z39589 could be said to be native to Scotland, M222 and Scots would be Scottish and not Irish...

jdean
02-04-2016, 07:05 PM
Certain amount of M222 politics, which overflows to origin of the DF49 population.

Perhaps you could pop yourself over to Alex Williamson's Big Tree (http://www.ytree.net) and do a little counting ? both Z39589 and DF49 are a long long way from the expansion point of M222.

dp
02-04-2016, 07:08 PM
Certain amount of M222 politics, which overflows to origin of the DF49 population. The "Out of Ireland" or "Out of Scotland" conflict that has existed in the M222 population since its discovery, 9 years ago. The origin of DF49 is important for the origin of M222 and the origin of Z39589 is important for the origin of DF49.

Now the other branches of Z39589 inhabit Argyll (which means shore of the Gael) and Galloway (thought to be Gall ('Foreign') Gael) and future East. All these areas became Gaelic speaking after the 5th century AD, as past wisdom has it, with the arrival of the Scoti (Irish). They would create Scotland Minor (Major was Ireland) and name the land after Ireland (Atholl, Loch Erne, etc.).

Hence if the other branches of Z39589 originated in Ireland, then it is unreasonable to think that DF49 or M222 originated in Scotland and travelled against the current to Ireland, given that its parent was original from Ireland.

Now the issue for Scottishness is then did Gaelic come from Ireland? Ongoing investigation hopes to place it earlier than previous historians have chosen to placed it. If achieved that would mean all the branches of Z39589 could be said to be native to Scotland, M222 and Scots would be Scottish and not Irish...


DF49 is more complicated but again looking at the project map is useful

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-df49?iframe=ymap

Putting M222 aside, which is a relatively young super group under Z2961, you can see there is not much DF49 in Ireland

Did you read jdean's comment correctly? Diversity in SNP branches (variance if your will) is what one has to look at to estimate a locus of origin. We have DF49 members with origins as far away (from Ireland) as in Poland.

Also see: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-df41?iframe=ymap. I see kits with origin in Sweden and Spain
dp :-)

Muireagain
02-04-2016, 10:23 PM
Did you read jdean's comment correctly? Diversity in SNP branches (variance if your will) is what one has to look at to estimate a locus of origin. We have DF49 members with origins as far away (from Ireland) as in Poland.

Also see: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-df41?iframe=ymap. I see kits with origin in Sweden and Spain
dp :-)

Well the relationship between Z39589, DF49 and other sub-branches tell you those test kits ancestor originated in the northern half of Ireland. And that probably in the late medieval period or later a Scotsman or Irishman travelled aboard.

Think through the logic of the SNPs
L21 defines association with the British Isles (including Britonia and Brittany)
Z39589 a sub section of the L21, i.e., the British Isles, which due to it children is the northern half of Ireland or the western half of Scotland
DF49 more limited to the northern half of Ireland
And its sub-branches become more specific.

Of course after the origination of the SNP its people can more. The Ui Tuirte originate in historic times in eastern County Tyrone. The rise of Cenel Eoghain in eastern County Tyrone the drove Ui Tuirte into co. Antrim and co. Armagh. The rise of the O'Neill in co. Armagh drove the Ui Tuirtre descendants into Co. Louth and the mountains of Mourne. If each SNP origination location can be identified (the SNP is a time stamp), you would have a dot to dot of your ancestor movements.

TigerMW
02-04-2016, 11:00 PM
...
Think through the logic of the SNPs
L21 defines association with the British Isles (including Britonia and Brittany)
....
Of course after the origination of the SNP its people can more. ..
I think you are describing the problem with your logic. People can move. Perhaps more importantly, people in one region can expand more rapidly and establish for a greater duration than people in another region.

It is clearly true that a modern person who is L21+ as very high odds of having an Isles ancestor. However, L21 thousands of years old, as is DF49. Where populations of people have grown to currently may have little to do with their origin.

David Mc
02-05-2016, 01:19 AM
Muireagain,

Precisely how old do you think R-L21, Z39589, DF49 et al are? Everyone agrees that R-L21 has an especially strong presence in the Isles now, but if you are going to argue that these all originate in the Isles you have them arriving a long time before they should have.

Muireagain
02-05-2016, 01:16 PM
I think you are describing the problem with your logic. People can move. Perhaps more importantly, people in one region can expand more rapidly and establish for a greater duration than people in another region.

It is clearly true that a modern person who is L21+ as very high odds of having an Isles ancestor. However, L21 thousands of years old, as is DF49. Where populations of people have grown to currently may have little to do with their origin.

I cannot say where L21 originate, I can say based on the law of parsimony all later branches of L21 are from the British Isles.

For the following branch can be identified with:
P312>L21>DF13>Z39589>DF49 contains Dal Cuinn, Dal Fiatach and Ui Tuirtre
P312>L21>DF13>Z39589>L1335 would seem to be Clan Loairn of Scottish Highlands
P312>L21>DF13>Z39589>Z251 Irvings north of the Solway
P312>L21>DF13>Z39589>DF41 Stewart & MacLellans of the Lordship of Carrick and Galloway

P312>L21>DF13>ZZ10>Z253>L226 Dal Cais of Thomond + Uí Fidgenti
P312>L21>DF13>ZZ10>Z255 Uí Liatháin
P312>L21>DF13>ZZ10>MC10 Clan Cameron

P312>L21>DF13>FGC11134 Sullivan/Driscoll branch of the Eoghanacht
P312>L21>DF13>DF21 Cianachta & Clann Colla Dá Crich (L513)

P312>L21>DF13>L513 Clans MacLean and Drummond
P312>L21>DF13>FGC5494 East Scottish Borders
P312>L21>DF63 Clan McFarlane

Clearly branches of L21 have geographic homes within the British Isles.

If took the Ui Tuirte five hundred years to north co. Louth from eastern co. Tyrone, about 500ft per year. A process that if not for the destruction of the Gaelic clan system would have lead to their extinction. Given the course of time DF49 would be another SNP without branches and only part of the stem of the tree for sub-branches of M222.

Muireagain
02-05-2016, 02:10 PM
Muireagain,

Precisely how old do you think R-L21, Z39589, DF49 et al are? Everyone agrees that R-L21 has an especially strong presence in the Isles now, but if you are going to argue that these all originate in the Isles you have them arriving a long time before they should have.

You didn't say how old you think it is?

Personally I don't trust the calculations based on STR mutation rates (there is very little to measure/check them against), SNP mutation rate is possible (however it becomes unstuck due the number of sons per father affects the calculation).

Empirically it is over 4000 years ago based on the archeological finds on Rathlin Island. Rathlin Island an Island between Scotland and Ireland hence L21 has been in Scotland and Ireland since 4000 years ago. More importantly at Rathlin Island it was found that P312>L21>DF13>DF21 was present 4000 years ago.

Rathlin sample 1 L21>DF21>Z30233 is a kin to the line that produced the Cianachta population of Ely O'Carroll. Showing that 4000 years they had spilt from their fellow L21>DF21>S5488 line that produced the Clann Colla Dá Crich population of Ulster.

dp
02-05-2016, 07:14 PM
You didn't say how old you think it is?

Personally I don't trust the calculations based on STR mutation rates (there is very little to measure/check them against), SNP mutation rate is possible (however it becomes unstuck due the number of sons per father affects the calculation).

Empirically it is over 4000 years ago based on the archeological finds on Rathlin Island. Rathlin Island an Island between Scotland and Ireland hence L21 has been in Scotland and Ireland since 4000 years ago. More importantly at Rathlin Island it was found that P312>L21>DF13>DF21 was present 4000 years ago.

Rathlin sample 1 L21>DF21>Z30233 is a kin to the line that produced the Cianachta population of Ely O'Carroll. Showing that 4000 years they had spilt from their fellow L21>DF21>S5488 line that produced the Clann Colla Dá Crich population of Ulster.

Since you didn't give a source, I assume you mean: Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome (http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368)

The three individuals from Rathlin Island were discovered during excavations in Church Bay in 2006
(4)
...
we present here the first, to our knowledge, genome-wide data from four ancient Irish individuals, a Neolithic woman (3343–3020 cal BC) from Ballynahatty, Co. Down, found in the context of an early megalithic passage-like grave, and three Early Bronze Age men from a cist burial in Rathlin Island, Co. Antrim (2026–1534 cal BC) with associated Food Vessel pottery (16) (SI Appendix, Section S1).
...
All samples could be securely assigned to haplogroup R1b1a2. This result was based on the presence of
fourteen defining haplogroup mutations in Rathlin1, ten in Rathlin2 and four in Rathlin3 (Table S8.1),
with an average coverage per informative SNP of 5.5X, 1.6X and 1.25X respectively. Moreover, all
samples contained the derived allele at marker M529, the defining mutation of R1b1a2a1a2c, strongly
suggesting their membership of this haplogroup. This marker was present at 4X coverage in Rathlin1, 1X
coverage in Rathlin2 and 2X coverage in Rathlin3.
Rathlin1 could be further placed into the subhaplogroup R1b1a2a1a2c1g where the defining marker was
present a 3X coverage. Rathlin2 also displayed the same C>T marker mutation, however the low sample
coverage at this position (1X) prevented us from excluding deamination as a possible cause of the
observation. Therefore, the final assigned haplogroup of Rathlin2 was R1b1a2a1a2c1 based on the
presence of the A>C subhaplogroup mutation at 2X coverage.
All 3 Rathlin Bronze Age samples sequenced in the present study belong to the M529 lineage which is
characterized by higher frequencies in the British Isles, reaching peak frequencies (> 94%) in the West of
Ireland
(52, 53).
One particular subclade of M529, defined by the mutation M222
(52)
, has a distribution which in the
present day is considerably restricted to Ireland. Rathlin1, however, the only sample with reads covering
SNP M222, presents the ancestral allele at this position



R-L21Z290/S461 * L21/M529/S145 * L459+3 SNPs formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp info
...
R-M222Z2959/S656 * Z2968/S635 * Z2977/S645+34 SNPs formed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 1850 ybp info
I am not surprised that they found L21/M529 males in the British Isles from 3500-4000 years ago. That is 500-1000 years after the clade formation estimate and the estimate from variation anaylsis.
dp :-)