Z251 Tree Structure

[seferhabahir]

I'm starting a new thread for this. I believe that the current structure looks like the following (with its three subclades being FGC13899, Z16943, S11556). Only a little while ago, all we knew was that Z251 contained L555 and L583.

Z251
...FGC13899
......A228
.........A959
.........A241
............A237
...Z16943
......CTS4157
......Z16944
.........L555
...S11556
......Z17665
.........Z18108
.........S19558
......S9294
.........Z18092
.........FGC11986
............A555
...............L583
..................BY317
..................FGC11963

[seferhabahir]

I just checked and all the above SNPs are available for ordering off of FTDNA's advanced SNP order page. Since that is the case, I am going to try to convince them to finally put Z251 and as many downstream SNPs as possible on their haplotree. We'll see how far I get with this. It seems to have worked for Z253 SNPs.

[kenmunn]

I just checked and all the above SNPs are available for ordering off of FTDNA's advanced SNP order page. Since that is the case, I am going to try to convince them to finally put Z251 and as many downstream SNPs as possible on their haplotree. We'll see how far I get with this. It seems to have worked for Z253 SNPs.

It looks like we may have another branch under FGC13899. Quoting from Aaron Pierce of the Z251>FGC13899 Project: "And, obviously, we know Price, kit#9452, will also be FGC18229+ (since you share it and a couple other SNPs with NA11831, and you share a much more recent common ancestor with Price than with NA11831)." These three lines have no known connection since arriving in the US.
Aaron goes on to say:
I've taken a first look at the results. Just based on what's available through the FTDNA website (I haven't checked the raw data), Price shares at least 21 of the SNPs in your block on Alex Williamson's tree:

FGC18230
FGC18235
FGC18240
FGC18246
FGC18247
FGC18248
FGC18249
FGC18251
FGC18253
FGC18254
FGC18256
FGC18258
FGC18259
FGC18260
FGC18265
FGC18268
FGC18269
FGC18271
FGC18272
FGC18274
FGC18276

[kenmunn]

Just checked Alex Williamson's updated information on Z251 group and he now shows 3 individuals who share additional SNPs below FGC13899>FGC18229. They also share FGC18232 and FGC18233 as well.

[seferhabahir]

It looks like we may have another branch under FGC13899. Quoting from Aaron Pierce of the Z251>FGC13899 Project: "And, obviously, we know Price, kit#9452, will also be FGC18229+ (since you share it and a couple other SNPs with NA11831, and you share a much more recent common ancestor with Price than with NA11831)." These three lines have no known connection since arriving in the US.


Yes, this does indeed look like FGC18229 would be below FGC13899 and parallel to A228. So, it it now looks like the below. However, I could not find FGC18229 in FTDNA's list of orderable SNPs so did not include it in my request to them to change their haplotree. I was hesitant to ask them to put something in their tree that was not on their list of orderable SNPs, but let's keep working the tree anyway.

Z251
...FGC13899
......FGC18229
......A228
.........A959
.........A241
............A237
...Z16943
......CTS4157
......Z16944
.........L555
...S11556
......Z17665
.........Z18108
.........S19558
......S9294
.........Z18092
.........FGC11986
............A555
...............L583
..................BY317
..................FGC11963

[seferhabahir]

But wait, there's more (courtesy of the FGC13899 project)... :P

Z251
...FGC13899
......FGC18229
......A228
.........A959
............A1772
............A967
...............BY118
..................A970
.........A241
............CTS9686
...............A237
............A551
...............A458
...Z16943
......CTS4157
......Z16944
.........A2201
.........L555
...S11556
......Z17665
.........Z18108
.........S19558
......S9294
.........Z18092
.........FGC11986
............A555
...............L583
..................BY317
..................FGC11963

[DJMcD]

I'm starting a new thread for this. I believe that the current structure looks like the following (with its three subclades being FGC13899, Z16943, S11556). Only a little while ago, all we knew was that Z251 contained L555 and L583.

Z251
...FGC13899
......A228
.........A959
.........A241
............A237
...Z16943
......CTS4157
......Z16944
.........L555
...S11556
......Z17665
.........Z18108
.........S19558
......S9294
.........Z18092
.........FGC11986
............A555
...............L583
..................BY317
..................FGC11963

Thank you for all your work. It is appreciated...Donald J. McDonald

[Tom]

I just got my Z251 plus results and they are S11556 T+ , Z18092 A+, Y11904 A+, FGC25450 T+. My test was done at YSEQ. ySearch number is 8NQXQ. Does this open up Z251 a bit more? I have no idea where the last 2 snp's are. Any info would be great.
Thanks
Tom

[kenmunn]

I just got my Z251 plus results and they are S11556 T+ , Z18092 A+, Y11904 A+, FGC25450 T+. My test was done at YSEQ. ySearch number is 8NQXQ. Does this open up Z251 a bit more? I have no idea where the last 2 snp's are. Any info would be great.
Thanks
Tom

Tom, you can get an idea from Alex Williamson's Z251 Tree that would give you some hints about currently known SNPs from NGS testing. I see Norman and McDonald results that have Z18092+. See: http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1

[MacUalraig]

Not sure that the other results provide any new structure, FGC25450 is a stray hit close to Z18092 and Y11904 according to YFull is under L1065 so must have recurred if you are positive?

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1065/

What do you know of your origins? Surname is curious.

[seferhabahir]

Tom,

You were already identified to be closely related on STR markers with Norman and McDonald. See the following thread (assuming you are Dew kit #N5199) describing this L21 cluster with 459a=7 as one of the identifying values. Not sure if Y11904 A+, FGC25450 T+ tells anything more, especially if they are recurrent or upstream from Z251.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2601-A-Z251-Cluster-with-459a-7-and-413b-25

I recommend that you join the Z251 and Subclades Project and perhaps get your Due kit #120071 match to join as well and we can put you into the McDonald and Norman Z18092+ subgroup. You might to be more closely related to Due than to Norman and McDonald.

[Tom]

I am the Dew N5199 kit. I joined the Z251 project. Wonder what to test next?
Thanks Tom

[seferhabahir]

I am the Dew N5199 kit. I joined the Z251 project. Wonder what to test next?
Thanks Tom

There really isn't any new available test for you to take other than deciding to do a Big Y or Full Genomes test. That would inform us about how many of the SNPs shared between Norman and McDonald you also share and how many you might have that are unique. This would help to further define the Z18902 group, but those tests are expensive as you no doubt know.

[seferhabahir]

Z251
...FGC13899
......FGC18229
......A228
.........A959
............A1772
............A967
...............BY118
..................A970
.........A241
............CTS9686
...............A237
............A551
...............A458
...Z16943
......CTS4157
......Z16944
.........A2201
.........L555
...S11556
......Z17665
.........Z18108
.........S19558
......S9294
.........Z18092
.........FGC11986
............A555
...............L583
..................BY317
..................FGC11963

I went ahead and Sanger tested FGC11963 and BY317 with FTDNA to get them into my list of FTDNA tested SNPs. As expected, I am FGC11963+ and still waiting on BY317 which I presume to be negative.

[seferhabahir]

I went ahead and Sanger tested FGC11963 and BY317 with FTDNA to get them into my list of FTDNA tested SNPs. As expected, I am FGC11963+ and still waiting on BY317 which I presume to be negative.

Result for me came back BY317- demonstrating that the B317 and FGC11963 divergence is real. Probably only two people in the world care at this point, but it shows it is possible to find a very recent SNP that defines one's paternal line. The person that is B317+ and FGC11963- is a GD of only 3 at 67 markers, and in the case of L583 people where there may only be a separation of 100 years for each STR change, I would think FGC11963 and BY317 occurred within the last few hundred years, and possibly even more recent.

[cairn]

I drew a Z251 haplogroup tree diagram to help me understand the relationship between the different subclades. I'm sharing it here in case anyone else finds it useful. I started with what seferhabahir shared above, then added what was on the Z251 Project page at FTDNA. I didn't include the Z18600 SNP which appears as a parent to FGC13899 and S11556 on Ytree.net; does that SNP only appear in BigY or FGC results? It doesn't appear to be available through YSEQ.

Here's the diagram (small size): https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/139X5M0sUWAMj187lEFv86Xg5loi90DZYpvSqd83hb6U/pub?w=772&h=387

[kenmunn]

I think that FGC18229 is NOT below A228 as well as alongside it unless you have something not reflected on Alex's Big Tree. It appears from his tree that both are subclades under FGC13899.

[cairn]

I think that FGC18229 is NOT below A228 as well as alongside it unless you have something not reflected on Alex's Big Tree. It appears from his tree that both are subclades under FGC13899.

Thank you kenmunn! I accidentally duplicated that layer when drawing the diagram. It should be fixed in the link above now.

[donmatthews0910]

Thank you, Cairn.
Your tree is quite informative and easy to read. I am stuck at S9294 and waiting for further developments.
Don

[cairn]

I revised the Z251 tree structure diagram that I posted earlier in this thread. This revision includes a couple of the recently discovered subclades and I also made an attempt at identifying some of the established clusters. I'm not sure if it's fair to characterize A228 and all its subclades as the "Welsh group (aka Z251-1130)", but that's more or less what I gathered from the FGC13899 project page at FTDNA.

I also added little icons to indicate which of these SNPs are available to order through FTDNA and YSEQ (and which ones are included in YSEQ's Z21 panel). I hope that this is informative for people who are Z251+ and may wish to pursue further testing.

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1oQAP0QQeAZkxjKcy91ItbxjaMfcsy4PHWvXCFCZm6Yc/pub?w=1714&h=889

Please let me know if you see something wrong on this diagram.

[Huntergatherer1066]

A member of a project I administer came back as S9294+ and negative for Z18092 and FGC11986 on FTDNA L21 panel. I encouraged them to join the Z251 project, it would be great if they did NGS testing eventually since I don't see any other known branches currently downstream of S9294, and S9294 is likely still a fairly old SNP. Origins are solidly Lowland Scots.

[sel]

Hi there,

I am tested R-S9294 positive (A-555 neg) and have a high overlap (y-str) with the MacKall Kit. FGC11986 is still listed "test in progress"? I assume it will be negative. What does that mean? Where can I find more information etc. I read in you thread that William the Conqueror is assumed to be S9294? Is that proven?

Thanks and

br

Stephan

Here are my SNP (used the L21 package including unnecessary tests)

P297+, P310+, P311+, P312+, Z2542+, BY3229+, BY3231+, S9294+, L21+, L23+, L278+, L389+, L51+, M269+, M343+, S11556+, Z251+, Z253-, S12547-, S19268-, S19558-, M73-, MC14-, M335-, L513-, L584-, L617-, L881-, M1994-, M222-, L408-, L47-, L48-, L371-, L238-, S9793-, Y9091-, Y9096-, YFS444735-, Z16245-, Z16246-, Z16250-, Z16502-, Z16506-, Z16886-, Z16891-, Z16910-, Z16943-, Z16944-, Z17553-, Z17653-, Z17662-, Z17901-, Z17967-, Z17971-, Z17992-, Z18092-, Z18108-, Z18600-, Z19670-, Z2185-, Z246-, Z3000-, ZS3152-, ZZ10_1-, ZZ10_2-, BY561-, BY592-, BY595-, BY596-, BY674-, BY676-, BY701-, BY747-, CTS1864-, CTS2457-, CTS310-, CTS3937-, CTS5454-, CTS6919-, CTS9686-, F4006-, FGC10047-, FGC11293-, FGC11963-, FGC13300-, FGC13304-, FGC13758-, FGC13780-, FGC13899-, FGC15565-, FGC17164-, FGC18030-, FGC18229-, FGC18230-, FGC19319-, FGC23554-, FGC2913-, FGC30632-, FGC32861-, FGC34569-, FGC35995-, FGC36422-, FGC436-, FGC5511-, FGC5512-, FGC5549-, FGC5561-, FGC7448-, FGC9655-, L1065-, L1444-, L226-, L583-, L679-, L96-, S1021-, S1050-, S1088-, Z255-, Z2573-, Z295-, Z296-, Z301-, Z302-, Z326-, Z36-, Z367-, Z381-, Z49-, Z8-, Z8052-, Z8056-, Z9-, L555-, A1078-, A1101-, A1105-, A1120-, A1148-, A1149-, A1308-, A1772-, A194-, A2121-, A228-, A237-, A241-, A286-, A5381-, A545-, A551-, A555-, A5843-, A5845-, A5846-, A5917-, A6078-, A6138-, A7254-, A7297-, A7298-, A7302-, A7806-, A7810-, A7812-, A897-, A92-, A959-, A967-, A970-, BY118-, BY246-, BY2583-, BY2601-, BY2604-, BY2666-, BY2723-, BY2899-, BY2916-, BY2972-, BY3070-, BY317-, BY3226-, BY3227-, BY3228-, PF3252-, PF6610-, PF6714-, PF7562-, PF7589-, PF7600-, S1026-, S1051-, S11493-, S11601-, S12025-, S1567-, S16264-, S1688-, S18632-, S18827-, S7721-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, V88-, Y5058-, Z156-, Z16500-, Z17-, Z17300-, Z18-, Z1862-, Z195-, Z198-, Z209-, Z2103-, Z2109-, Z225-, A1773-, A2150-, A274-, A4670-, A517-, BY2823-, BY2868-, BY575-, BY653-, CTS10429-, CTS11567-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS3386-, CTS4466-, CTS4528-, CTS5330-, CTS5689-, CTS6937-, CTS7763-, DF103-, DF110-, DF17-, DF19-, DF21-, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, DF81-, DF83-, DF88-, DF95-, DF99-, F2691-, F2863-, FGC10516-, FGC11134-, FGC13620-, FGC20761-, FGC22501-, FGC396-, FGC5301-, FGC5336-, FGC5344-, FGC5345-, FGC5351-, FGC5354-, FGC5356-, FGC5367-, FGC5373-, FGC5494-, FGC5798-, L1335-, L2-

[botoole60611]

My cousin-in-law's results came in.

Z251 ->S11556 ->S9294

[seferhabahir]

My cousin-in-law's results came in.

Z251 ->S11556 ->S9294

More accurately would be

Z251 ->S11556 ->S9294 -> FGC11986 -> A555

but known to be L583- based on the raw data, and so not part of the L583+ Levite branch of A555

[Peter]

YSEQ panel testing placed me Z16944. For about a year I was on my own in the FTDNA results table for that Z251 subclade. Now the table has changed and it looks as though FTDNA only recognizes their own test results. Is this the case?

Both my SNP and STR results are fairly different to the rest of the Z251 population (62937). I'm beginning to think I am the sole descendent from the planet Zorg. Should I be testing for anything else or should I just wait?

[cairn]

YSEQ panel testing placed me Z16944. For about a year I was on my own in the FTDNA results table for that Z251 subclade. Now the table has changed and it looks as though FTDNA only recognizes their own test results. Is this the case?

Both my SNP and STR results are fairly different to the rest of the Z251 population (62937). I'm beginning to think I am the sole descendent from the planet Zorg. Should I be testing for anything else or should I just wait?

The administrator of the Z251 project, Michael Walsh, reorganized the project results a couple weeks ago to reflect participants terminal SNPs as determined by FTDNA through Big Y or SNP packs. The admin of the project is not affiliated with FTDNA, but he seems to have disregarded results from other sources in the reorganization; several of us with YSEQ results have been moved from our terminal SNP groups back to the 'ungrouped' category, as have participants with FGC results.

I don't know if Mr. Walsh plans to further update the group's results with treating from outside sources.

Regarding further testing, I think you should consider taking a Big Y or FGC Y Prime test if you can. I don't think any new SNPs have been discovered downstream of Z16944 since your last panel, but no new ones can be discovered until men who are Z16944* persue full Y chromosome testing.

[Huntergatherer1066]

Some SNPs are also not showing as terminal SNPs yet despite being positive from BigY, Burgin's A6078+ result for instance; I believe it has yet to be switched from a novel variant to a known SNP in the BigY database. Reams is also still R-Z16943 but is in the A6078 group, I'm not sure why the difference. I hope some new A6078 folks emerge from latest testing surge to develop some structure below it. My Dodge friend in the project whose kit I administer is fairly closely related to Burgin but I've only tested him for Z251 since I know he would be nearly identical to Burgin as far as SNPs go.

[Lugus]

I just got the Big Y results for my maternal uncle and he is Z18092. Where did this come from?? Any idea?

kit 472597

[donmatthews0910]

Dear HunterGather1066,
Are you still of the opinion that S9294 is solidly Lowland Scots? My terminal SNP is BY3231 which is below S9294, but I am FGC11986- and Z10892-.

[Huntergatherer1066]

Hi Don, I meant that the test taker in my project was clearly Lowland Scots; S9294 may or may not be from further afield. Unfortunately the project member can no longer provide DNA; there are other members in this subgroup in my project though that I hope will test further.

[eastcarolinatarheel]

It does not look like this forum has been very active lately, but is everyone trying to encourage fellow Z251 men to order the new SNP Pack?

[cairn]

Mike W is sending an announcement to the members of the Z251 Project at FTDNA. Most people who ordered the R1b-L21 SNP Pack or the L555 SNP Pack won't benefit from the Z251 Pack. Likewise, members who have done the Big Y or FGC Y Elite won't need the Z251 SNP Pack. Anyone who is Z251+ and hasn't tested for downstream SNPs (and who isn't planning on getting Big Y or Y Elite) would be highly encouraged to order the Z251 SNP Pack. The Pack is currently $99, but the price will go up to $119 soon, so anyone who's interested should order soon.

[seferhabahir]

Long time, no post...

I recently received my closest Y-DNA match since I first tested over six years ago. This person is a GD of 2 at 67 markers and a GD of 3 at 111 markers and his paternal ancestors are from a similar geographic location near Minsk. I convinced him to order a Big Y, and then I bit the bullet and ordered one too (even if redundant with my previous FGC test results). That way we will be able to further flesh out the FTDNA haplotree and also the Big Tree, with three Big Y results below L583. There is a possibility that this new match and I share the same great-great-great-great-grandfather, but that is only conjecture based on the fact (or coincidence) that our great-great-grandfathers have the same first name, and in Ashkenazi tradition one is usually named after your paternal grandfather if he is deceased when you are born.

Will get back to this later in June when the Big Y results come in. The other possibility is that we will discover yet another downstream clade of L583 parallel to BY317 (Burde) and FGC11963 (Yurzditsky). These SNPs would be very close in time, probably occurring only in the last 200-300 years. The other cool thing is that this new match is within an hour drive from my house, and I have already met up with him face-to-face to talk DNA.

[seferhabahir]

Long time, no post...

Will get back to this later in June when the Big Y results come in. The other possibility is that we will discover yet another downstream clade of L583 parallel to BY317 (Burde) and FGC11963 (Yurzditsky). These SNPs would be very close in time, probably occurring only in the last 200-300 years. The other cool thing is that this new match is within an hour drive from my house, and I have already met up with him face-to-face to talk DNA.

Well, my match's Big Y results came in today but I got a notice from FTDNA saying they need a new DNA sample from me because my original sample deteriorated or they don't have enough to complete my Big Y. In any case, it now appears SNP L583 is below FGC11991 (see my new signature block below) because my match tested FGC11991+ but L583- which is pretty consistent with the fact that none of his paternal ancestors have Levite traditions. I suppose when they finish my Big Y, FTDNA may revise their haplotree to show this hierarchy. I'm also starting to use Z18106 instead of A555 because that is what FTDNA does to distinguish the Ashkenazi groups below FGC11986. There are two Z18106 Big Y results that are negative for FGC11991 (one of them is in the Big Tree, the other is not).

Based on this Big Y result and the closeness of my STR-based matches, I believe FGC11991 might be about 500 years old and L583 about 350 years old with a structure something like this below FGC11986 for the Ashkenazi Z18106 SNPs:

FGC11986>Z18106
FGC11986>Z18106>FGC11991
FGC11986>Z18106>FGC11991>L583
FGC11986>Z18106>FGC11991>L583>BY317
FGC11986>Z18106>FGC11991>L583>FGC11963

YFull lists the formation of FGC11986 at 4300 ybp and the origin of Z18106 (or whichever one of its phylogenetic equivalents came first) may be just as old, even though the TMRCA of the Ashkenazi Z18106 group (1111EE, the old L21 Baltic Cluster) is probably less than 1000 years ago, similar to several other Ashkenazi groups. BY317 and FGC11963 are likely extremely recent events.

[danieldgray]

Interesting results. As I understand it, there were different periods of migration of Jewish populations within Belarus, with one being older in time and one more recent coming from Germany. Do these results provide clues to the timing of the migration of FGC11991 into Belarus and the prior location of that population?

[seferhabahir]

Interesting results. As I understand it, there were different periods of migration of Jewish populations within Belarus, with one being older in time and one more recent coming from Germany. Do these results provide clues to the timing of the migration of FGC11991 into Belarus and the prior location of that population?

It is really difficult to determine when these lineages showed up in Belarus because knowledge of our ancestries usually only goes back to maybe 1800 and it looks like FGC11991 is older than that. This area of Belarus was part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth from 1569-1795 until its dismantlement. Jews had also lived in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania as early as the fifteenth century. It is possible that FGC11991 was present in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (now parts of Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, Lithuania) since the late 1400s which matches my estimate of it being about 500 years old.

My family's surname is a geographic name variant related to the town of Jurzdyk or Yurzdyka (modern maps will list Ravanichy, Belarus as the town). I don't know where my ancestors may have lived before the early 1800s. None of the people with FGC11991 have the same surname. They are all different because surnames were (usually) non-existent prior to 1800.