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giovanni carli
03-15-2015, 02:52 PM
On 23andMe I'm 99,8% standard (100% speculative) european but my neaderthal percentage is only 2.3%.
On Geno 2.0 I’m 1.8% Neanderthal and 2.4% Denisovan.
I don't know europeans or mediterreans with lower percentages than mine. Only africans.
correlation between ethnicity and neanderthal percentage?
if yes do you know a spreadsheet or map about the neanderthal/denisovan frequency by country?
-----------------------------------------------
EUROGENES TEST WEST EURASIA K8
ANE 0.092115 South_Eurasian 0.008414 Near_Eastern 0.55965 East_Eurasian 1E-005 WHG 0.329281 Oceanian 0.005839 Pygmy 0.004681 Sub-Saharan 1E-005 Lower bound NE ANE 0.090867 South_Eurasian 0.009607 Near_Eastern 0.531805 East_Eurasian 1E-005 WHG 0.356408 Oceanian 0.00634 Pygmy 0.004953
Sub-Saharan 1E-005

Wonder_Wall
03-15-2015, 06:00 PM
This is the only article I've seen (and it's not an actual research paper) which seems to indicate Tuscans have the highest proportion in Europe:

http://www.abroadintheyard.com/people-from-tuscany-most-similar-neanderthals/

Jean M
03-15-2015, 06:25 PM
On 23andMe I'm 99,8% standard (100% speculative) european but my neaderthal percentage is only 2.3%.
On Geno 2.0 I’m 1.8% Neanderthal and 2.4% Denisovan.

As an Italian, you shouldn't have any Denisovan ancestry (as we currently understand it). The Genographic Project has been criticised for giving scientifically baseless estimates of "Denisovan" ancestry to people from populations that have no Denisovan ancestry whatsoever. Apparently Spencer Wells has realised that there is a problem. In an interview in 2013, he was asked:


Is the scientific community, specifically the genetics community, in consensus on what to look for in terms of neanderthal or denisovan DNA in modern humans?

He replied


Oh, god, no. [Laughs] It’s all very much evolving, and we caught wind of some interesting new stuff at a genome conference held at Cold Spring Harbor back in May where Svante Pääbo — who is the world expert in neanderthal and denisovan genomics; his lab is the one who sequenced them — made an announcement that with the new denisovan genome they have they’re now reevaluating what a denisovan is because it seems to be about 20% neanderthal. And the fact is that we don’t really know what these things are, and the extent to which there is overlap and interbreeding between neanderthals and denisovans.

So, the denisovan calculation in particular is extremely experimental, and we say that on the website. And in fact, I think the story is going to get so murky about what a denisovan actually is, we’re probably going to stop reporting that because it’s simply going to be uninterpretable. Everybody has some ancestral admixture with these hominids. The neanderthal estimate is probably pretty valid — the denisovan one, I think at the moment, is just totally up in the air — up for grabs



GB I was under the impression that people of exclusive African ancestry do not have neanderthal or denisovan admixture. Is that not true?

SW: It’s not true. Do you know why that’s been found and been published so many times?

GB: No. Why?

SW: Because to make the calculations, you use the Africans as the out group — you use them as the ones who have no admixture. So, you’re defining them as having 0% admixture.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/168586-discussing-the-personal-genomics-revolution-with-nat-geos-dr-spencer-wells/4

Jean M
03-15-2015, 06:28 PM
On 23andMe I'm 99,8% standard (100% speculative) european but my neaderthal percentage is only 2.3%.

I'm happy to report that you have a match in me. 2.3 % Neanderthal, 100% European. :)

vettor
03-15-2015, 06:30 PM
As an Italian, you shouldn't have any Denisovan ancestry (as we currently understand it). The Genographic Project has been criticised for giving scientifically baseless estimates "Denisovan" ancestry to people from populations that have no Denisovan ancestry whatsoever. Apparently Spencer Wells has realised that there is a problem. In an interview in 2013, he was asked:





do you have a link that "italians" have no or should have no Denisovan ................it does not fit with italian geneticists theories from the last 10 years.

Also, is it only Italians or are there any others in Europe?

Jean M
03-15-2015, 06:48 PM
Also, is it only Italians or are there any others in Europe?

The idea (at the moment) seems to be that the Denisovan DNA entered the human mix somewhere in East Asia, en route to Papua New Guinea. So we wouldn't expect it in any people with 100% European ancestry.

From Krishna R. Veeramah & Michael F. Hammer, The impact of whole-genome sequencing on the reconstruction of human population history, Nature Reviews Genetics, 15, 149–162 (2014) http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v15/n3/abs/nrg3625.html

4053

See also:


M. Meyer et al., A High-Coverage Genome Sequence from an Archaic Denisovan, Science 338, 222 (2012): http://www.sciencemag.org/content/338/6104/222
D. Reich et al., Denisova Admixture and the First Modern Human Dispersals into Southeast Asia and Oceania, American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 89, Issue 4, pp. 516–528, 7 October 2011: http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297%2811%2900395-8



It has recently been shown that ancestors of New Guineans and Bougainville Islanders have inherited a proportion of their ancestry from Denisovans, an archaic hominin group from Siberia. However, only a sparse sampling of populations from Southeast Asia and Oceania were analyzed. Here, we quantify Denisova admixture in 33 additional populations from Asia and Oceania. Aboriginal Australians, Near Oceanians, Polynesians, Fijians, east Indonesians, and Mamanwa (a “Negrito” group from the Philippines) have all inherited genetic material from Denisovans, but mainland East Asians, western Indonesians, Jehai (a Negrito group from Malaysia), and Onge (a Negrito group from the Andaman Islands) have not. These results indicate that Denisova gene flow occurred into the common ancestors of New Guineans, Australians, and Mamanwa but not into the ancestors of the Jehai and Onge and suggest that relatives of present-day East Asians were not in Southeast Asia when the Denisova gene flow occurred.

Though frankly, I think we need to wait a while to get more DNA from archaic homo samples, plus if possible an early Homo sapiens, before drawing firm conclusions about where, when (or even if) intermixture with archaic species took place with results still discernible in modern human DNA.


it does not fit with italian geneticists theories from the last 10 years.

The Denisovan fragment was only discovered in 2008. Its mtDNA was published by Krause et al. 2010. That was five years ago.

giovanni carli
03-15-2015, 07:27 PM
these neanderthal/denisovan theories seem examples about what english language define as "factoids"

Jean M
03-15-2015, 07:38 PM
these neanderthal/denisovan theories seem examples about what english language define as "factoids"

I certainly wouldn't bother about the supposed Denisovan or Neanderthal component that any genetic firm claims to find in your DNA. I suppose they know how human curiosity works. As soon as any genetic finding hits the media, people want to know what it means for them. So along comes a test for it. ;) We saw it with the claim of millions descended from Genghis Khan. (No proof so far of what his Y-DNA actually was.)

jeanL
03-15-2015, 08:08 PM
My paternal grandmother is 3.0% Neanderthal 89% European, 5.0% East_Asian+Native American, 2.6% Middle Eastern+North African, 1.6% SSA.

vettor
03-16-2015, 05:05 AM
The idea (at the moment) seems to be that the Denisovan DNA entered the human mix somewhere in East Asia, en route to Papua New Guinea. So we wouldn't expect it in any people with 100% European ancestry.

From Krishna R. Veeramah & Michael F. Hammer, The impact of whole-genome sequencing on the reconstruction of human population history, Nature Reviews Genetics, 15, 149–162 (2014) http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v15/n3/abs/nrg3625.html

4053

See also:


M. Meyer et al., A High-Coverage Genome Sequence from an Archaic Denisovan, Science 338, 222 (2012): http://www.sciencemag.org/content/338/6104/222
D. Reich et al., Denisova Admixture and the First Modern Human Dispersals into Southeast Asia and Oceania, American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 89, Issue 4, pp. 516–528, 7 October 2011: http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297%2811%2900395-8




Though frankly, I think we need to wait a while to get more DNA from archaic homo samples, plus if possible an early Homo sapiens, before drawing firm conclusions about where, when (or even if) intermixture with archaic species took place with results still discernible in modern human DNA.



The Denisovan fragment was only discovered in 2008. Its mtDNA was published by Krause et al. 2010. That was five years ago.

Thanks

http://www.australasianscience.com.au/article/issue-november-2011/aboriginal-genome-reveals-new-insights-early-humans.html

I wonder if Mongo-man was ever tested for denisovan

tamilgangster
03-16-2015, 10:37 AM
I assume that people with cromagnid phenotype tend to have higher neanderthal admixture. Even papuans who are very robust have elevated neanderthal admixture. Individuals with robust feature most likely have higher levels of admixture from from other hominid group

Salkin
03-16-2015, 10:54 AM
I certainly wouldn't bother about the supposed Denisovan or Neanderthal component that any genetic firm claims to find in your DNA. I suppose they know how human curiosity works. As soon as any genetic finding hits the media, people want to know what it means for them. So along comes a test for it. ;) We saw it with the claim of millions descended from Genghis Khan. (No proof so far of what his Y-DNA actually was.)

So, obviously what we need to do is convince Svante Pääbo to sequence and analyse us for the true answers on Neanderthal and Denisovan admixture. :)

Jean M
03-16-2015, 01:14 PM
So, obviously what we need to do is convince Svante Pääbo to sequence and analyse us for the true answers on Neanderthal and Denisovan admixture. :)

I'm sure he and other geneticists in the same field would be thrilled to bits to get DNA out of an early Homo sapiens in Africa and would need no persuasion to sequence it. The problem seems to be the lack of DNA preservation in existing specimens. But there have been such advances in the field lately that we can hope for such a specimen one day.

Táltos
03-16-2015, 01:34 PM
Apparently I'm a little more caveman than the rest of the kits that I manage at 23andme. I'm 2.9%, everyone else is 2.7%. :\ I score between 88%-99% European using the various modes.

Salkin
03-16-2015, 01:45 PM
23andMe calls me 3.0% Neanderthal; Geno 2.0, 1.6% Neanderthal and 3.1% Denisovan. I certainly do take these figures with a mine of salt.

Táltos
03-16-2015, 01:52 PM
23andMe calls me 3.0% Neanderthal; Geno 2.0, 1.6% Neanderthal and 3.1% Denisovan. I certainly do take these figures with a mine of salt.

You are very caveman! :biggrin1: They are just for fun really, small talk at a cocktail party maybe.

Jean M
03-16-2015, 02:36 PM
I assume that people with cromagnid phenotype tend to have higher neanderthal admixture. Even papuans who are very robust have elevated neanderthal admixture. Individuals with robust feature most likely have higher levels of admixture from from other hominid group

Robusticity of skeleton is so obvious in the cold-adapted Neanderthals that it encouraged this sort of guesswork. Erik Trinkaus sees Neanderthal input in most of the earliest moderns in Europe, for example in a robust Cro-Magnon child’s skeleton from the Lapedo Valley in Portugal. However, as Prof. Chris Stringer points out, Homo sapiens is pretty variable. Early H. sapiens in Africa were not all gracile. (Chris Stringer, The Origin of Our Species. Penguin Books 2011.)

Ancient DNA has the potential to give us solid answers on points that have been a matter of conjecture.

Shaikorth
03-16-2015, 02:48 PM
Robusticity of skeleton is so obvious in the cold-adapted Neanderthals that it encouraged this sort of guesswork. Erik Trinkaus sees Neanderthal input in most of the earliest moderns in Europe, for example in a robust Cro-Magnon child’s skeleton from the Lapedo Valley in Portugal. However, as Prof. Chris Stringer points out, Homo sapiens is pretty variable. Early H. sapiens in Africa were not all gracile. (Chris Stringer, The Origin of Our Species. Penguin Books 2011.)

Ancient DNA has the potential to give us solid answers on points that have been a matter of conjecture.

And when it comes to modern humans, any Chinese person is likely to have more Neanderthal than those Europeans that would be classified "cromagnid" by old timers like Coon & friends.

Salkin
03-16-2015, 10:56 PM
I'm sure he and other geneticists in the same field would be thrilled to bits to get DNA out of an early Homo sapiens in Africa and would need no persuasion to sequence it.

Of that I have no doubt - but he would probably require some persuasion to sequence me and calculate my Neanderthal percentage. B)

I'm reading his Neanderthal Man currently. I've lost much sleep to it; it's very hard to put down.

jesus
03-16-2015, 11:03 PM
1.9% and my sister is 1.8% "1st percentile among Middle Eastern or North African users"

West africans usually score the lowest Neanderthal percentage, Neanderthal admixture peaks in Eurasia as far as I remember.

Salkin
03-16-2015, 11:36 PM
You are very caveman! :biggrin1:

Yeah, and if there is, after all, anything to the figures, that certainly goes against the robusticity = high Neanderthal idea. I'm slender and very long- and fine-limbed. My skull is long, but high and narrow, not flat and wide like a Neanderthal's. (Finding hats that fit can be a pain.) My supraorbital ridges are pretty average for a European male, I guess.

Salkin
03-16-2015, 11:40 PM
Robusticity of skeleton is so obvious in the cold-adapted Neanderthals that it encouraged this sort of guesswork. Erik Trinkaus sees Neanderthal input in most of the earliest moderns in Europe, for example in a robust Cro-Magnon child’s skeleton from the Lapedo Valley in Portugal. However, as Prof. Chris Stringer points out, Homo sapiens is pretty variable. Early H. sapiens in Africa were not all gracile. (Chris Stringer, The Origin of Our Species. Penguin Books 2011.)

Ancient DNA has the potential to give us solid answers on points that have been a matter of conjecture.

How do modern cold-adapted humans, i.e. Inuits, compare to Neanderthals in skeletal robusticity?

rock hunter
03-17-2015, 01:13 AM
I came across this some time ago about the occipital bun as a Neanderthal skull trait.

It is the bump some of us have at the base of the skull right above the atlas vertebra
maybe to reinforce it for a larger brain , a minor mid model year design change or
maybe not. By the way in babies this is a dangerous weak spot .

The occipital bun (‘‘chignon’’) is cited widely as a Neanderthal derived trait. It encompasses the posterior projection/convexity of the occipital squama and is associated with lambdoid flattening on the parietal. A ‘hemibun’ in some Upper Paleolithic Europeans is thought by
some authors to indicate interbreeding between Neanderthals and early modern Europeans. However, ‘bunning’ is difficult to measure, and the term has been applied to a range of morphological patterns. Furthermore, its usefulness in phylogenetic reconstruction and its homologous status across modern and fossil humans have been disputed. We present a geometric morphometric study that quantitatively evaluates the
chignon, assesses its usefulness in separating Neanderthals from modern humans, and its degree of similarity to Upper Paleolithic ‘hemibuns.’
e measured the three-dimensional coordinates of closely spaced points along the midsagittal plane from bregma to inion and of anatomical
landmarks in a large series of recent human crania and several Middle and Late Pleistocene European and African fossils. We conclude that the shape of the occipital
profile alone should not be considered an independent trait, as it is very tightly integrated with braincase shape. Our analysis does not support differences in integration of the posterior midsagittal profile and the cranial base in Pleistocene and recent humans.
2006 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17097133

fil
03-17-2015, 01:14 AM
I have 2.5%
48th percentile among South Asian (e.g. Indian, Pakistani) users

wombatofthenorth
04-02-2015, 12:59 AM
This is the only article I've seen (and it's not an actual research paper) which seems to indicate Tuscans have the highest proportion in Europe:

http://www.abroadintheyard.com/people-from-tuscany-most-similar-neanderthals/

I thought the latest data has turned that on it's head and that western Europeans have ended up testing to have some of the lowest Neanderthal percentage (outside of Africans) and that some Asians, I think it was Chinese?, actually have the most and there is speculation that some in Asia had two major mix-in events instead of just one?

wombatofthenorth
04-02-2015, 01:04 AM
As an Italian, you shouldn't have any Denisovan ancestry (as we currently understand it).

I wonder what the most current thought on this is though. Didn't they discover last year that the supposed 400,000 year old Neanderthal in Spain had mtDNA that matched Denisovan and hasn't there been talk that Denisovans were actually all over and that the old Neanderthal to the west and Denisovan to the southeast might be completely wrong and the entire history much more complex and that the Geno 2.0 results might have more merit than initially thought (although perhaps still picking up some Neanderthal too, so maybe not quite right either)?

wombatofthenorth
04-02-2015, 01:05 AM
Anyway, my mom scored 2.1% Neanderthal and 3.0% Denisovan (Northern European heritage 98% and 2% Oceanian) on Geno 2.0.