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FalkirkEagle
03-21-2015, 02:35 PM
I ordered a 37-marker test from FTDNA and the results came back a couple of days ago and show that my haplogroup is R-M269, or Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype.

The fact that I'm R1b doesn't come as a surprise, as I am of Scots ancestry on my father's side of my family, and I have paper records that show my line goes back at least
200 years in Scotland.

What was really surprising though, were the matches I got. I have 14 exact matches from England, 9 matches from Germany, 3 from Wales and only one from Scotland. The exact match from Scotland belongs to a surname project, and I have the same surname. Amazingly enough, it turns out he has the same first name as me (just spelled in the British way) his middle initials are the same as mine but reversed, and his surname is spelled the same (in the Scottish way, and not the English way, which uses an 'o' in place of the 'u' found in the Scots form). According to FTDNA, there is a 57.81% possibility we have a common ancestor within the last 24 generations.

Within a genetic distance of -1, in the Ancestral Origins results derived from the basic 12 markers of the test, the picture changes. Again, England comes out on top with 135 matches, Ireland comes in with 112 matches, Germany 67 matches, Scotland with 62, and Wales only 17. The SNP map shows all of the English matches tending to come from western and southern England, and I interpret this as consistent with typical R1b migration, settlement and populations for the part of England that is mostly R1b in terms of haplogroup. The large number of German matches leads me to suspect my most ancient ancestor within the last 4000 years or so might have been a Germanic Celt.

These results have me wondering if I'm really of Scots ancestry or English. My surname is found on both sides of the Scots-English border, but it is much more common in Scotland. It's also a locational name derived from an Middle English word meaning stream or marsh.

In my genealogical travels on the internet, I came across one source that states that there are two branches of my surname in the UK, but they're not related to each other. I'm wondering if my family actually originated in England but migrated north to Scotland, rather than originating directly in Scotland and simply adopting the surname. The relatively low number of Scottish matches would seem to suggest that.

I know that this sort of thing is not terribly unusual in Scottish families. For instance, the Hamilton surname, which is a well-known Scottish surname, actually comes from England, where it was originally spelled Hambleton.

One thing I am curious to know is whether the R-M269 result is as far as I can go. That is, if I upgraded to a 67, or even 111-marker FTDNA test, whether I would be able to determine whether my dominant subclade is something like R1b-U106 or L21. The R-M269 result seems terribly generic because virtually anyone of ultimately northwestern European ancestry could probably get that result. If what I'm suggesting is not possible, then please forgive my ignorance. I'm new to DNA genealogy, and as interesting as it is, it seems to be a vast, complicated and slightly confusing field.

rms2
03-21-2015, 02:48 PM
67-markers would give you a result at DYS492, which can be illuminating. A 492=13 there is generally a telltale sign that one is probably U106+. A 492=12 result generally indicates that one is P312+.

Scotland is about 50% L21+, so you could just risk $39 and test for L21. A positive result would really narrow things down for you, but getting more STR markers is also very much worthwhile.

If the matches you are talking about above are 12-marker matches, I wouldn't put much stock in them, except perhaps the one who has your surname. That one is worth pursuing.

Huntergatherer1066
03-21-2015, 04:16 PM
If you have the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype, you'll really need to do SNP testing to determine whether you are in a P312 subclade or a U106 subclade in order to be able to filter out irrelevant very distant matches that can show up even at the 37 marker level for WAMH people.

rms2
03-21-2015, 07:42 PM
FalkirkEagle -

Just out of curiosity, what do you have at YCAII?

rms2
03-21-2015, 08:10 PM
If you have the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype, you'll really need to do SNP testing to determine whether you are in a P312 subclade or a U106 subclade in order to be able to filter out irrelevant very distant matches that can show up even at the 37 marker level for WAMH people.

Very astute observation. I myself have 37-marker matches with folks who are U106+. My 23 at 390 and 24 at 447 cause the problem. I don't get clear of the U106 folks until we get to 67 markers. That's why I (and folks like Ken Nordtvedt, John McEwan and Dr. Jim Wilson) thought I would be U106+ back before I got the appropriate tests. I belong to Oppenheimer's six-marker "Frisian Modal Haplotype".

FalkirkEagle
03-22-2015, 03:16 AM
FalkirkEagle -

Just out of curiosity, what do you have at YCAII?

My YCA II values are 19 and 23.

rms2
03-22-2015, 11:47 PM
My YCA II values are 19 and 23.

Okay, I thought you might have 19-24 at YCAII, which might indicate that you belong to the Scots Modal Haplotype.

FalkirkEagle
03-23-2015, 01:51 AM
Thanks for the info. Given the large number of admittedly distant matches coming from southwestern Germany in my results, which is likely something you would not see with a Scots Modal Haplotype test result, I wouldn't be surprised if a 67-marker test reveals that I'm ultimately of Germano-Celtic or Italo-Germanic Celtic origin, if not U-106. However, until I actually proceed with a 67-marker test and probably a L21 and U106 test, I'm going to refrain from drawing any conclusions.

FalkirkEagle
03-26-2015, 03:58 AM
While doing a Google search for typical R1b-L21 values, I came across the following page:

http://littlescottishcluster.com/characteristic.html

My results don't match any of the major markers that would identify people who belong in the subgroup known as The Little Scottish Cluster (LSC). However, I'm hitting
virtually every one of the typical L21 markers that are published on the LSC page. It looks like I might very likely belong to the L21 subgroup. I will still get a 67-marker
test to confirm that hypothesis, though, just for greater certainty.

rms2
03-28-2015, 04:11 PM
While doing a Google search for typical R1b-L21 values, I came across the following page:

http://littlescottishcluster.com/characteristic.html

My results don't match any of the major markers that would identify people who belong in the subgroup known as The Little Scottish Cluster (LSC). However, I'm hitting
virtually every one of the typical L21 markers that are published on the LSC page. It looks like I might very likely belong to the L21 subgroup. I will still get a 67-marker
test to confirm that hypothesis, though, just for greater certainty.

I don't think you can lose by getting more str markers: 111 would be even better.

If you get 492=12, you should test for L21, IMHO, but take a look at your matches at that level and see what SNPs any of them has tested positive for. That's a good guide, and the closer the match, the better the indicator.